Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what
Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Monday, the sixteenth of March.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne Wright.
Speaker 1: And I'm Claire Stevens and I'm Amelia Lastov.
Speaker 2: And the reason I sound a bit scattered is because
Speaker 2: I'm very excited. Regular out louders well know, I'm a
Speaker 2: big Oscars fan. I used to work in celebrity magazines.
Speaker 2: This was like the biggest day of the year. I
Speaker 2: love my movies, I love my stars. I am amped.
Speaker 2: And today we're going to give you all the gossip.
Speaker 2: We're going to give you all the things that grabbed
Speaker 2: our attention, the frocks we loved. We're not running through,
Speaker 2: like blow by blow, everything that happened and whether or
Speaker 2: not it should have done. We're just going to give
Speaker 2: you what grabbed our attention. And there will be a
Speaker 2: few spoilers in here too.
Speaker 3: Plus the Louis Theroux documentary everyone's talking about and our
Speaker 3: quite stringent attempts to find a few glimmers of hope
Speaker 3: within it.
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about reply only. Frank maybe
Speaker 1: you are one of them.
Speaker 2: But first in case you missed it. In Batshit Theories
Speaker 2: of the Week. In case you missed it, there's a
Speaker 2: whole thing going on about if you put a picture
Speaker 2: of Timothy's challomay, we we'll talk more about our chalo
Speaker 2: maay later next to a picture of Henry Cavell. Do
Speaker 2: we all know who he is? Handsome British, Yeah, British,
Speaker 2: British movie star who you find more attractive, says more
Speaker 2: about you than your taste. Goes this theory, let me
Speaker 2: just explain and then we'll unpack why it may or
Speaker 2: may indeed be nonsense. In the interests of bursting my bubble,
Speaker 2: I follow a magazine called ev on Instagram. We've talked
Speaker 2: about Evie on this show. It's like in America, it's
Speaker 2: like the conservative Cosmo. So it's kind of sells itself
Speaker 2: as like a woman's lifestyle site, magazine whatever. But it's
Speaker 2: all very like how to please your husband, don't be promiscuous,
Speaker 2: get married quickly, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: They've had this post up about challow may and Cavell
Speaker 2: says in the latest Internet discourse some women on x
Speaker 2: this is on Twitter claiming Henry Cavell isn't that attractive.
Speaker 2: But there may actually be scientific explanation for why some
Speaker 2: women say they prefer Timothy Chalomaye instead. Research suggests that
Speaker 2: women on hormonal birth control tend to be more drawn
Speaker 2: to men with softer, more feminine features. Coincidence, asks Evie,
Speaker 2: because they're just asking questions, Amelia. This has been jumped
Speaker 2: on by lots of conservative commentators. Lauren Chen sent a
Speaker 2: tweet completely viral, and then Elon Musk of course shared it,
Speaker 2: where she said, thinking Timothy Shalomay is more attractive than
Speaker 2: Henry Cavell is what happens when you've been on birth
Speaker 2: control for ten years.
Speaker 1: Elon Musk actually reposted it with the bulls eye emoji.
Speaker 1: And I just want to know who does he think
Speaker 1: he looks like?
Speaker 2: He looks like Henry cavill And also we know he
Speaker 2: doesn't approve of birth control because he has twenty million children.
Speaker 2: But I'm not a scientist, but Clare Stephens certainly is
Speaker 2: oh definitely, is it true that being on the pill
Speaker 2: or on DHRT, when it comes to it, is going
Speaker 2: to make you fancy, shallow, made more than cavil.
Speaker 3: No, And this is an example, This is an example
Speaker 3: of misinformation on the Internet, which we'll probably get to
Speaker 3: you in a later segment. It is so frustrating to
Speaker 3: look at this. It's wrong on so many levels. I'll
Speaker 3: start with a scientific level and then we'll move to logic.
Speaker 2: So what if you find both of them attractive? Yeah,
Speaker 2: what does that say the state of your hor I think.
Speaker 3: You're a hoe.
Speaker 2: Ev Magazine would.
Speaker 3: Elon Musk would say you're a hoe. So that was
Speaker 3: based on a twenty twelve study. What Evie magazine was citing.
Speaker 3: That's quite a long time twenty twelve, and there was
Speaker 3: another big study in two thousand and eight. You won't
Speaker 3: believe it, but there's been studies since, and you won't
Speaker 3: believe it. But the study since have actually showed that
Speaker 3: that was a complete non fabrication. So study in twenty
Speaker 3: nineteen found no evidence that women using oral contraceptives had
Speaker 3: weaker preferences for male facial masculinity than did women not
Speaker 3: using oral contraceptives. And then in twenty twenty five, that
Speaker 3: was just last year. You may remember, there was a
Speaker 3: randomized control trial that was like a double blind study.
Speaker 3: That is the golden standard of any kind of scientific research.
Speaker 3: So it meant that they randomly assigned some women to
Speaker 3: be on the pill, randomly assigned some women to be
Speaker 3: on placebo, and then they did this experiment no statistically
Speaker 3: significant effect of oral contraceptives on preferences.
Speaker 2: For facial hoping to not get pregnant.
Speaker 3: I know, right, it's like, oh, sorry, we didn't think
Speaker 3: about that ethical consideration. But the fact that an article
Speaker 3: can be written that acts like it's citing scientific research
Speaker 3: and then ignores the last fourteen years of that scientific
Speaker 3: research is so infuriating. So there's that aspect, But then
Speaker 3: there's the logic. So that Evey Magazine article tries to
Speaker 3: argue at the end that the big problem here, the
Speaker 3: worry for women is that what's going to happen is
Speaker 3: you're going to be on hormone or birth control, and
Speaker 3: then you're going to marry someone and then you're going
Speaker 3: to go.
Speaker 1: Off to Michael and you'll want Henry Carol.
Speaker 3: And it's like, you know what else might actually affect
Speaker 3: what women get tied to for their entire lives having
Speaker 3: a baby with that man. Hence birth control, Like do
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like before birth control, women,
Speaker 3: the freedom that birth control has offered women outweighs.
Speaker 2: That to choose a mate.
Speaker 3: Yes, even if that were true. The other thing that
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense is that at the beginning of that
Speaker 3: article they write that it's easy to watch a James
Speaker 3: Dean movie and wonder why there aren't men like that anymore.
Speaker 3: We sat in a cinema a few weeks ago and
Speaker 3: watched women salivate over Jacob Alordi no bless him, who's
Speaker 3: pretty bloody. Similar, there's Adam Driver, there's Paul mescal And
Speaker 3: then they have a line about how a tea teen
Speaker 3: age girl is more likely to lust over Lil Huddy
Speaker 3: than Jacob a lord who is little Huddy. And also
Speaker 3: teenage girls shouldn't be the consideration here because they're less
Speaker 3: likely to be your birth control than women in the twenties.
Speaker 2: All my fun I just want to come with the
Speaker 2: side of culture war, and I was enjoying it.
Speaker 3: Also, I like, I'm not on birth control, but I
Speaker 3: am pregnant, so that might effect.
Speaker 2: But you're a Shallama aunt.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but birth control, no birth control, pregnancy, no pregnancy.
Speaker 3: I go Shalla May over Henry Cavill. I think Henry
Speaker 3: Cavill looks a little bit more.
Speaker 2: That's science. That is science. So we have been watching
Speaker 2: the Oscars on and off all morning, all lunchtime. I
Speaker 2: heard some whoops around the office, not many. It wasn't
Speaker 2: the most exciting of ceremonies they were.
Speaker 3: It had its moments.
Speaker 2: I had its moments. We're going to be talking about
Speaker 2: made people whoop in a moment. But we can't talk
Speaker 2: about the Oscars without talking about dresses. Now, Mia is
Speaker 2: going to bring her forensic some may say judgmental view
Speaker 2: on fashion and the Red Carpet tore tomorrow's episode in detail,
Speaker 2: as well as the after party outfits, which are always
Speaker 2: more interesting these days. But friends, we have to do
Speaker 2: a who you like best on the Red Carpet? Amelia,
Speaker 2: I got two.
Speaker 1: I got a man and a woman. Best dressed woman
Speaker 1: Rose r Rose Berner Indior Anne Hathaway went for a
Speaker 1: similar look. They were both kind of wearing some might
Speaker 1: say wallpaper adjacent designs, but they both looked beautiful. But
Speaker 1: Rose looks like a movie star, and by that I
Speaker 1: mean she looks like an exceptionally attractive person who was
Speaker 1: having a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: And interestingly I made the same observation, but I feel
Speaker 3: like Rose Burns was like the modern version of that
Speaker 3: dress and the jewelry and that kind of thing, whereas
Speaker 3: Anne Hathaway's was like the old.
Speaker 1: Well she got. She had like elbow length gloves on.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: And my best dressed man is Pedro Pascal, who did
Speaker 1: not have his mustache. I think there was some gasps
Speaker 1: of dismay in the office when he showed up on
Speaker 1: the red carpet clean shaven. No one's ever seen him
Speaker 1: aout the mustache before.
Speaker 2: What you just heard me do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the mustache made its way onto Leo's face.
Speaker 2: It did crawl across the red carpet clan.
Speaker 3: I quite liked Leo.
Speaker 1: I did not. I like clean shaven Pedro. He was
Speaker 1: in white channel, he had this big silk and feather
Speaker 1: brooch on. And what I love about him is that
Speaker 1: he always looked so well moisturized.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. I thought the boys, though, did you
Speaker 2: notice they were a lot of them were either all
Speaker 2: in white like Chalamaie like fool full white, or all
Speaker 2: in black so like black timeless.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: But I think our Jacob classic three piece suit with
Speaker 2: the waistcoat, I mean, I know, it's hard to look
Speaker 2: bad when you're seventeen feet to Anie took his mom.
Speaker 3: He did, he did take you.
Speaker 1: You have a little bit of an issue there.
Speaker 3: It's a deflection because who is dating people would find
Speaker 3: a little bit problematic. So he takes his mom and
Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh, taking his.
Speaker 1: Mom because he's dating.
Speaker 3: He's dating Olivia.
Speaker 2: Olivia talked about this last week.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Olivia Jade, who's who was involved in the college
Speaker 3: admissions candle. I just think she's so beautiful. But to be.
Speaker 2: Fair, the serious actors always take their moms. Leo took
Speaker 2: his mom for years. Charala Maai used to take his mom.
Speaker 2: He still doesn't walk with Kylie, like not really. I
Speaker 2: think the serious actors are always like, we're not going
Speaker 2: to talk about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, true, honorable mention to Jacob Lordie's scruffy hair. You
Speaker 3: just know that that particular scruff took hours. It was
Speaker 3: just so intentional, but it was so beautiful. I'm going
Speaker 3: to be boring and agree with Amelia that Rose Byrne
Speaker 3: was absolutely best stressed. But I'll also mention I thought
Speaker 3: Demie Moore's look was.
Speaker 2: Too many feathers, many feathers.
Speaker 1: I mean, our Nick was in feathers too.
Speaker 2: And so was Tayana Taylor who I did think looked amazing,
Speaker 2: and she's been she's from one battle after another, and
Speaker 2: she has been absolutely hammering. The red carpet looks with
Speaker 2: lots of really out sort of out there things, So
Speaker 2: her in those feathers was actually quite yeah, well key
Speaker 2: for her. It looked amazing.
Speaker 3: The other one that, yes, needs it, need to mention
Speaker 3: is Emma Stone looked that color, that fabric, Oh, that
Speaker 3: looked absolutely beautiful. Louisverton a little capslee.
Speaker 1: Emma Stone does not look like Emma Stone anymore. I
Speaker 1: know you've borded me saying this. Bridget Dulaney wrote a
Speaker 1: great piece in The Guardian a couple of days ago
Speaker 1: about how movie stars used to just be like better
Speaker 1: looking than the rest of us, and we could aspire
Speaker 1: to that and we liked looking at them, and it
Speaker 1: was all very uncomplicated. And now movie stars just look
Speaker 1: like AI generated cyborgs. And I have to include a
Speaker 1: number of the people who walk the carpet tonight in
Speaker 1: that category.
Speaker 2: We discussed this all the time. I thought she looked amazing,
Speaker 2: very very thin, but that's her thing.
Speaker 3: But I thought she has the dress, probably the only
Speaker 3: person in the world who could wear that dress. Can
Speaker 3: we just quickly? I hated Timmy's look. I hated the sunglasses.
Speaker 3: I hated the boots. They were like hospital boot.
Speaker 2: Leave the boy aler.
Speaker 1: It was like a double breasted white suit, which I
Speaker 1: think so yes, suits haven't been this controversial since Obama
Speaker 1: wore a tan suit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have to award a high degree
Speaker 2: of difficulty right for the very pregnant? Would me Masaku?
Speaker 2: She is from Sinners, she played Annie and Sinners, the
Speaker 2: heart of that movie. Amazing actress, she's about to have
Speaker 2: a baby, and she was like, because Hailey Steinfeld, who's
Speaker 2: also in Sinners, she is also heavily pregnant, and she
Speaker 2: didn't go, but I think that one me was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm freaking going. And she wore this amazing Louis Vton
Speaker 2: green sequince. But it is not easy to pull off
Speaker 2: a red car and that would have been custom made
Speaker 2: for her, and she looked freaking a million dollars. Anyway,
Speaker 2: that's the Frocks, as we say, he is going to
Speaker 2: do more on that tomorrow. But moving inside, Conan O'Brien
Speaker 2: was hosting now he hosted last year, generally seemed to
Speaker 2: be a pretty safe choice. In these polarizing times. And
Speaker 2: remember America as a millionaires better than anyone half the
Speaker 2: audience hate the other half of the audience. Are you
Speaker 2: going to make jokes for one half of the audience
Speaker 2: and not the other. He kind of played it very safe.
Speaker 2: He did make an Epstein gag that is coming up
Speaker 2: in this Here's a little collection from his opening monologue.
Speaker 4: Great to be back hosting the Oscars. Last year when
Speaker 4: I hosted Los Angeles was on fire, but this year
Speaker 4: everything's going great. Security is extremely tight tonight. I's got
Speaker 4: to mention that. Yeah, I'm told there's concerns about attacks
Speaker 4: from both the opera and ballet communities. They're just mad
Speaker 4: you left out jazz. It's the first time since twenty twelve,
Speaker 4: first time since twenty twelve that there are no British
Speaker 4: actors nominated for Best Actor or Best Actress. Yeah, British
Speaker 4: spokesperson said, yeah, well at least we arrest our pedophiles,
Speaker 4: so we got that going.
Speaker 1: We pay tribute.
Speaker 4: Tonight, not just a film, but to the ideals of
Speaker 4: global artistry, collaboration, patience, resilience and that rarest of qualities
Speaker 4: today optimism. So let us please celebrate. Let us celebrate.
Speaker 2: That last bit was like him saying giving everyone permission
Speaker 2: to have a nice night. Yeah, being like what.
Speaker 3: We do is important.
Speaker 1: I love Conan. I think he's so funny and his
Speaker 1: Hot Ones episode is the greatest twenty minutes of Internet ever.
Speaker 1: But I forgot my AirPods today and I was watching
Speaker 1: him perform without sound, and he looked like a silent
Speaker 1: movie star and he was just trying so hard, and
Speaker 1: there was something about it that felt really old fashioned
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, on the whole ceremony feels and tics of it
Speaker 2: all with him, Yea, I agree.
Speaker 3: And there were several jokes that to me fell flat
Speaker 3: and just felt like absolutely anyone like my dad would
Speaker 3: have made them. There are a couple of good ones.
Speaker 3: I'm glad that it only took a few seconds to
Speaker 3: get the ballet upright joke out of the messing around
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 1: And it was nicely delivered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tricky because do you remember for a while
Speaker 2: there the OSCARS was trying to be relevant with its hosts,
Speaker 2: and there was that year when it was unhad the
Speaker 2: way James Frank or whatever, like nobody wanted.
Speaker 1: To do it.
Speaker 2: It was ahead of its time that one, but it
Speaker 2: became like a poison chalice. Nobody wanted that gig because
Speaker 2: it's the most criticized blah blah. So now they've obviously
Speaker 2: just gone, let's keep that. Billy Crystal did it for
Speaker 2: like what seemed like a hundred years.
Speaker 1: And he appeared on stage briefly tonight as well in
Speaker 1: the immemorium section talking about Rob Reiner. But I just
Speaker 1: wonder if in this sort of stripped back TikTok age,
Speaker 1: someone trying as hard as cone and just falls flat.
Speaker 2: And you know, like a lot of the Oscars does
Speaker 2: feel like it's still nineteen eighty two, like the music,
Speaker 2: like when people are coming on and off, the glamorous
Speaker 2: Lady who leads everybody on and office's so weird. Now,
Speaker 2: Emelia and I were talking about the set and how
Speaker 2: it looked really dark and weird, and then I read
Speaker 2: that according to Vanity Fair, the year's stage design is
Speaker 2: meant to represent a calming garden courtyard.
Speaker 1: It doesn't it look like a mausoleum.
Speaker 3: And what's weird is that I feel like with the
Speaker 3: red carpet, the official Oscars red carpet is very of
Speaker 3: the moment. They've got a Millia to Oldenberg and she
Speaker 3: does it and she's so funny, and sometimes that gets
Speaker 3: criticized the idea of like influencers on the red carpet,
Speaker 3: But they're funny and they bring out funny stuff in
Speaker 3: the people they interview. But I agree, I think the
Speaker 3: entire ceremony is too earnest. I think everyone's being too
Speaker 3: earnest all the time. And I'm like, calm down, yeah,
Speaker 3: the ice. I don't need you to.
Speaker 2: To hand it over to Rock Nation, who do like
Speaker 2: the super Bowl and they just need to be like,
Speaker 2: what would you do with the Oscars because it's their
Speaker 2: big night, right And I get it. If I worked
Speaker 2: in that industry, it would be a big deal to
Speaker 2: be there and all that stuff. But it just does feel,
Speaker 2: as you said, Emelia, like it's from another time. Okay,
Speaker 2: we have to get to the biggest upset of the
Speaker 2: night if it's an upset, because we did kind of
Speaker 2: predict it. But three months ago you would have thought
Speaker 2: that chalamay, my little Timmy had a lock on this
Speaker 2: Best Actor nomination and win. He was nominated last year
Speaker 2: for the Bob Dylan Movie. At that point, he made
Speaker 2: a big point about how much he wanted to win
Speaker 2: it and how hard he's been working, and then on
Speaker 2: the Mardi Supreme press tour he's been talking loads about
Speaker 2: the quality of work he's been churning out. I think
Speaker 2: he's been nominated three times in ten years, which is
Speaker 2: a lot. He's only thirty. But he blew it and
Speaker 2: it went to Michael B. Jordan, which is justice because,
Speaker 2: as Emily Vernon pointed out on Friday's show, Michael B.
Speaker 2: Jordan should really have got two awards because he played twins.
Speaker 2: But do we think that the backlash in motion Ameilia.
Speaker 1: The Charla May backlash is here? And I don't just
Speaker 1: know that because you've been taking all the blue tech
Speaker 1: off your Timmy posters around your desk today, Holly. I
Speaker 1: think it started. I can pinpoint exactly when it started
Speaker 1: when he and Kylie Jenner appeared on the Red Carpet
Speaker 1: in those matching orange pleaver outfits. A few months ago
Speaker 1: he was promoting My Supreme. He was wearing orange. But
Speaker 1: I think it was just too much for everyone. It
Speaker 1: was far too naff. From there on, he hasn't recovered
Speaker 1: the ground. In fact, he's lost more with the opera
Speaker 1: and ballet remarks There's an interesting article in The New
Speaker 1: York Times today by Navine Kumar called Wasn't Timothday's Charla
Speaker 1: May is supposed to be a new kind of leading man,
Speaker 1: and I think her premise is really interesting. She makes
Speaker 1: the point that in twenty seventeen, when he burst onto
Speaker 1: the scene, he was in Ladybird, Greta Gowig's movie. He
Speaker 1: was in Call Me by Your Name, there was a
Speaker 1: gay love story. He wore a backless red holter neck
Speaker 1: on the red carpet. We thought he was kind of
Speaker 1: post heterosexual man.
Speaker 2: EV Magazine thinks that's sure.
Speaker 1: But now he's sort of been revealed to not be
Speaker 1: what we all pinned on him or projected on to him.
Speaker 1: And I think we're all just feeling like we were
Speaker 1: sold a bill of goods. Do you think that's right?
Speaker 2: I do? But I also I have to examine my
Speaker 2: attitude about it because I think a lot of it's
Speaker 2: to do with his choice of partner, right, and Kylie Jenner,
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's fair, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, I think that our whether it's misogyny,
Speaker 2: whether it's snobbery about Kylie Jenner and the kardashianness of
Speaker 2: it all has rubbed off on him and tainted his brand.
Speaker 2: And the truth of it is, he is incredibly good
Speaker 2: at what he does. Like Marty Supreme, whether you particularly
Speaker 2: like that movie or not, his performance is extraordinary, and
Speaker 2: the same with the Bob Dylan movie and the same
Speaker 2: with everything he does. So he's a great actor. And
Speaker 2: I think that for a long time people were like, oh,
Speaker 2: he knows how to promote a movie and open a movie.
Speaker 2: That was the narrative when Marty Supreme came out, and
Speaker 2: they were like, very few actors can open a movie
Speaker 2: and take it to the top of the box office,
Speaker 2: not gen z but he can. Him and Zende are
Speaker 2: seen as the great saviors of youth cinema. And it's
Speaker 2: like he went too hard, and then I think he
Speaker 2: went too hard, and then the establishment went, yeah, but
Speaker 2: you're not very Ardi, are you, because you're kind of
Speaker 2: with the Kardashians now. And I wonder if there's just
Speaker 2: a bit of old fashioned snobbery at play there, because
Speaker 2: although we've all been gripping our pearls about him saying
Speaker 2: what he said about opera or ballet, he wasn't wrong,
Speaker 2: as in it's not like the average guy in the
Speaker 2: street who's paying to go and see Sinners or Marti
Speaker 2: Supreme is a massive opera ballet fan, but it's given
Speaker 2: the establishment a really good reason to turn stobby on him.
Speaker 3: I reckon he just has the Leonardo DiCaprio cz which
Speaker 3: is he's going to be nominated over and over and
Speaker 3: over again and he's going to lose over it.
Speaker 1: Different to Leo, I was actually going to bring him
Speaker 1: up because I think they're an interesting study. In contrast,
Speaker 1: Leo dates Victoria's Secret Models famously. We kind of all
Speaker 1: just make jokes about it, and it's become part of
Speaker 1: his persona. But he gets cast in the Martins Corsese
Speaker 1: films year after year. There's no sense of his credibility
Speaker 1: being eroded because of his love life choices. Why is
Speaker 1: it that we don't like Charalamae with Kylie Jenner, but
Speaker 1: we forgive DiCaprio with his carousel of under twenty six.
Speaker 3: Year olds because we dehumani because they do. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: exactly which is a little bit.
Speaker 2: I don't think he I think that twenty six year
Speaker 2: olds have damaged his reputation. I definitely do. I think
Speaker 2: that I'm particularly among younger women. That's the only thing
Speaker 2: they'd know about Leonardo DiCaprio is that he dates twenty
Speaker 2: six year olds. I think there is a tarnish to
Speaker 2: him from that he's seeing. There's a bit sad.
Speaker 3: I reckon Timmy will have his moment. I don't think
Speaker 3: this was his moment because I don't think he was
Speaker 3: the best actor like him. Losing could have been. Yes,
Speaker 3: the whole publicity train and how it got derailed, all
Speaker 3: of that, But I do think Michael B. Jordan was
Speaker 3: better and heved it.
Speaker 2: You're right. I don't mean in any way for this
Speaker 2: comp like for this Chalamagne nomination to make it sound
Speaker 2: Michael B. Jordan's somehow Brad breathed this. Of course he didn't.
Speaker 2: He absolutely deserved it. But it's just interesting how quickly
Speaker 2: the narrative turned. It was very much schaalamey chalamey, chalomay,
Speaker 2: and then it was very much oh no, no, no,
Speaker 2: no no. You know. So it's I think that justice
Speaker 2: has been served in that as much as you can
Speaker 2: have a conpept performances and anything like Michael B. Jordan's amazing,
Speaker 2: but the backlash of Chala May is very interesting and
Speaker 2: very Kardashi encoded.
Speaker 3: I think, Yes, I saw a behind the scenes ish
Speaker 3: clip of Timothy seeing your sister and so she comes
Speaker 3: Ballerina his Ballerina's sister comes and says hi to him
Speaker 3: in the front row, and yeah, the interaction of doing
Speaker 3: her Kylie's awkward, That's all I'll say. But I think
Speaker 3: there's some awkwardness in the family.
Speaker 2: What else did we love? Slashd not love.
Speaker 3: What I loved from like a Shade and Freud perspective
Speaker 3: was during the Sinner's performance I Lied to You, which
Speaker 3: was bloody brilliant. There's a very talented balot dancer, mister Copen, Yes,
Speaker 3: and Timmy's in the front row, and I thought that
Speaker 3: was a very big reminder that it's like ballets in
Speaker 3: your face, buddy.
Speaker 1: And I loved seeing the Bridesmaid's cast get back together
Speaker 1: again and they were so funny when they walked on stage,
Speaker 1: they were all doing that cheesy pointing into the audience
Speaker 1: that politicians do. That was a real highlight.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that like a glimpse in a way
Speaker 2: of what the hosting gig could be. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't want that job is the truth.
Speaker 2: But like those women standing on stage they introduced two awards,
Speaker 2: they were funnier and fresher and smarter in those moments.
Speaker 2: The first one was this stick that they were pretending
Speaker 2: they had notes from people in the crowd. It was
Speaker 2: just very funny and they kept being like, you look
Speaker 2: really beautiful, You've aged well, the things you've done to
Speaker 2: your face are very tasteful.
Speaker 1: Every one of those women is just the funniest personal
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: Give to that more of that?
Speaker 1: Well, Tina and Amy? Do we need to go back
Speaker 1: to Tina and Amy's true?
Speaker 2: If that would be amazing? Who wouldn't want that? Anna
Speaker 2: wind Tour without her glasses. I had to call Amelia
Speaker 2: over computer because Anna Wintour and Anne Hathaway presented an
Speaker 2: award obviously a nod to the whole promotion of Devil
Speaker 2: Wears prior of too, and Anna was not wearing her
Speaker 2: sunglasses for the first part of it, and I was thinking,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've even seen it.
Speaker 1: She looked so uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: It was an eyeball reveal and it was quiet.
Speaker 2: And then she put them on and then she very
Speaker 2: hilariously said thank you Emily.
Speaker 3: That was great.
Speaker 1: That was probably funnier than anything Condan said. I loved
Speaker 1: Audumn girald Ar Kappor, who was the first woman and
Speaker 1: first woman of color to win Cinematography. She stood up,
Speaker 1: she looked so cool. She was wearing a shirt and tie. Holly,
Speaker 1: what did you say about shirt?
Speaker 2: I think that every like civilian who goes to the Oscars,
Speaker 2: and there are a lot of them because they're riders
Speaker 2: and their directors and they just don't look like movie stars,
Speaker 2: should wear a shirt and tie because most women look
Speaker 2: freaking awesome in a suit, and then you don't have
Speaker 2: to worry about the fact you've got to stand next
Speaker 2: to bloody roseburn in Emmstone. She was great, and it
Speaker 2: was great that she's the first woman to win that,
Speaker 2: and she thanked all the other women on the circuit.
Speaker 2: And it's like, slowly, slowly, So did you see what
Speaker 2: Chloe Jaw was wearing. She's the director of Hamnet and
Speaker 2: she wore a full black gothic outfit with like a
Speaker 2: veil to the ground and all this draping, and like
Speaker 2: you know, women never used to even get nominated for
Speaker 2: those awards, and she is absolutely the most talented, smart,
Speaker 2: interesting woman and listened to lots of interviews with her,
Speaker 2: and she just turns up like we're wearing this today,
Speaker 2: and everybody is sure we're wearing that today.
Speaker 1: I've got golden in my head at one best song,
Speaker 1: and I'm not even mad about it, because who doesn't
Speaker 1: love that song?
Speaker 2: I know, I mean, it felt like Sinner's probably should
Speaker 2: have won that. But at the same time, if you're
Speaker 2: talking about scale, every five year old in the world
Speaker 2: sung nothing else for a year.
Speaker 1: Apparently the attendee's got wristbands that flash during the performance.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out how I can get.
Speaker 2: One before they got The ones in the front row
Speaker 2: have these like wavy things, and there's a very awkward
Speaker 2: cut to Gwyneth. Gwyneth is a very plastic white sheath
Speaker 2: and she's like, got her little wavy thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, was Gwyneth like talking to John Anniston about what
Speaker 1: to wear? Because it really was giving Anniston.
Speaker 2: Wasn't it and very nineties?
Speaker 3: I was going to say that both Gwyneth and Nicole
Speaker 3: Kidman could have You could tell me they wore those
Speaker 3: outfits five years.
Speaker 1: Ago, that same feather dress before.
Speaker 3: And like the Nudi coloris.
Speaker 1: Maybe Gwyne was trying to channel CBK because of love Story,
Speaker 1: But the thing is that famously those two women did
Speaker 1: not like each other.
Speaker 2: Has anyone got anything?
Speaker 3: I did enjoy Rachel McAdams looking like a real person
Speaker 3: even though she was doing the in memoriam and it
Speaker 3: was actually very sad.
Speaker 1: For Diane Keaton.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for Catherine O'Hara, and she did a really
Speaker 3: good job. But I did You really do notice when
Speaker 3: somebody looks like a real person, you go, oh, you
Speaker 3: still have your face.
Speaker 1: Rachel McAdams movie star. Yeah, I want to see her
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, same, more of that.
Speaker 2: I have to give a shout out to Jesse Buckley,
Speaker 2: who won for Hamnet, which we've talked about in the show,
Speaker 2: a lot, devastating movie based on an incredible book. She
Speaker 2: wins and she says it's Mother's Day in the UK.
Speaker 5: She says, this, it's Mother's Day in the UK today,
Speaker 5: So I would like to dedicate this to the beautiful
Speaker 5: chaos of a mother's heart.
Speaker 2: I have to say, I know we don't like Ernest,
Speaker 2: but the beautiful chaos of a mother's Oh, that got me.
Speaker 1: Can I have one more earnest moment Joa Kim Trea,
Speaker 1: who is the director of Sentimental Value, which I only
Speaker 1: learned about today. He gave this great political statement. He
Speaker 1: said that all adults are responsible for all children. And
Speaker 1: I loved that phrase. It's so true, it really is.
Speaker 2: So there you go. We've given you the rundown. I
Speaker 2: have to watch it tonight. If you don't want to,
Speaker 2: maybe we've spoiled it for you. I don't enough, but hi,
Speaker 2: bloody love the Oscars. And we'll be back tomorrow with
Speaker 2: more Red Carpet and they'll probably be gossip, yeah, on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: because there's always after party gossip. Did Timothy get upset?
Speaker 2: Did he cry? Did he throw Kylie at someone? I
Speaker 2: don't nation needs to know. After the break, you've probably
Speaker 2: heard a lot of talk about the new Louis Thurux documentary.
Speaker 2: So we're going to give you a cheat sheet to
Speaker 2: the manisphere.
Speaker 6: At Ladder's Hello it's Me or in Your Ears, and
Speaker 6: tomorrow's subscriber episode, it's the Oscars Fashion with Me and Envy.
Speaker 6: We have very different takes on the Red Carpet. We
Speaker 6: come at it from very different perspectives, and we're going
Speaker 6: to share all our thoughts with you in your ears
Speaker 6: because I do subscriber episodes twice a week Tuesdays and Thursdays,
Speaker 6: and tomorrow's Tuesday. So if you're not already subscriber, follow
Speaker 6: the link in the show notes to listen to Out
Speaker 6: Loud and get Me in your Ears along with the
Speaker 6: other glorious hosts.
Speaker 3: The number one film on Netflix right now is a
Speaker 3: brand new documentary by Louis Thrue called Inside the Manisphere.
Speaker 2: I don't think Evie Magazine would like Louis through. No,
Speaker 2: they would think he looked a little soft.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a little soft, not very mad.
Speaker 1: Okay, you need to tell me about this, yes, because
Speaker 1: I have been too scared to watch it. It sounds scary,
Speaker 1: it sounds depressing.
Speaker 3: And I think you are with a lot of people
Speaker 3: who are turning away from this because it seems overwhelming.
Speaker 3: I will say one thing that I particularly loved about
Speaker 3: it and didn't expect is it's funny. It makes you laugh. Louis,
Speaker 3: there's such clever devices in finding the humor and the
Speaker 3: irony in these men. I laughed out loud several times
Speaker 3: in the first few minutes, so that helps with the
Speaker 3: existential dread.
Speaker 1: And I want you do explain to me what it
Speaker 1: says about the Manisphere, But then we need to get
Speaker 1: to the fact that you've told me that the ultimate
Speaker 1: lessons of it are not what I might expect.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly so. For those who aren't acquainted, Loui has
Speaker 3: been a journalist and a broadcaster for decades and he
Speaker 3: does documentaries about extreme subcultures, so from neo Nazis to
Speaker 3: porn stars to scientologists, serial killers, yep, all of them.
Speaker 3: Now he's joined his attention to what he says is
Speaker 3: in some ways a bit of an amalgamation of several
Speaker 3: of those subcultures, which is the online world of the Manisphere.
Speaker 3: If there was a King of the Manisphere, it would
Speaker 3: probably be Andrew Tate.
Speaker 2: And yes, he's probably the name that most people would
Speaker 2: be most familiar with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the vibe there is very far right politically
Speaker 3: advocating for traditional values, while also being surrounded by a
Speaker 3: lot of gyrating naked women, which seems to be at.
Speaker 2: Getting arrested quite often sphere people quite often.
Speaker 3: All of that, but profiting from women's sex work while
Speaker 3: outwardly being disgusted by it seems to be a common thing.
Speaker 3: They're also pretty much always selling something for Andrew Tate.
Speaker 1: Its courses are the courses in.
Speaker 3: He did one that was in teaching people how to
Speaker 3: get a girlfriend, then get that girlfriend to be a
Speaker 3: cam girl, and then take her money from her being
Speaker 3: a cam girl. Then later yeah, there's a course.
Speaker 2: But they also do lots of these guys in general,
Speaker 2: lots of courses about finance, crypto pt were, lots of
Speaker 2: training and nutrition and workout stuff, lots of pyramids sounding
Speaker 2: like investment schemes because it's all about getting rich and
Speaker 2: ripped and getting the ladies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then the ideas weirdly tend to enter the
Speaker 3: realm of blatant anti semitism, homophobia, misogyny, and violence against women.
Speaker 3: It seems to be a gateway to that. So Louis
Speaker 3: didn't get access to Tate because Andrew Tate wanted to
Speaker 3: be paid, and then he ended up sending Louis a
Speaker 3: graph of how googled he is compared to how googled
Speaker 3: Louis is and saying haha, see I'm more relevant than you,
Speaker 3: which it's like, maybe people know who Louis throw is
Speaker 3: so they didn't need to google him. But anyway, he
Speaker 3: did get access defensive much.
Speaker 1: I'm not getting arrested in Romania.
Speaker 3: I know he's not really in the headlines, but he
Speaker 3: did get access to twenty four year old Harris and
Speaker 3: Sullivan known as HS Tiki Talkie.
Speaker 2: He's so young, he's English.
Speaker 3: It's just I hadn't heard of him, and I liked
Speaker 3: it that way. His whole philosophy is broadly, I coach
Speaker 3: boys how to be fucking boys, not these soy boy
Speaker 3: gimps who walk around in the modern day.
Speaker 1: Famously unsuccessful, really unsuccessful.
Speaker 2: With him, particularly the kind of women, particularly put.
Speaker 1: Onto high value.
Speaker 2: Charlamagne, Neaver gets those women.
Speaker 3: Throw also meets Justin Waller, whose marriage is one of
Speaker 3: one way non monogamy.
Speaker 1: You can guess which way, meet his wife.
Speaker 2: Yes, he meet his wife and his children to a point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as well as American streamers Myron Gaines and Sneako.
Speaker 3: And the most powerful parts of those interactions are the
Speaker 3: moments he spends with the women in their lives. I think, but.
Speaker 1: Why do the women stay with these men?
Speaker 3: Well, good question, Louis asked them. And what's interesting is
Speaker 3: how quickly the men, very slowly back down from all
Speaker 3: their proclamations as soon as the woman is next to them,
Speaker 3: and in every instance the man then tries there's a
Speaker 3: whole blow up because the man then tries to get
Speaker 3: the woman to stop being on camera and stop talking
Speaker 3: because they can tell that it's.
Speaker 1: Because it's all basically kind of like a show that
Speaker 1: they're putting on to make money exactly.
Speaker 3: Louis since has done several interviews, and his takeaway is
Speaker 3: very interesting and matches my own, which is that despite
Speaker 3: how sickening these views are and how shocking these men are,
Speaker 3: there are a few tiny little snippets of hope to
Speaker 3: be taken from the documentary. Holly, you watched the documentary
Speaker 3: with Brent, I did? What did you take away from it?
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things very early on, because obviously
Speaker 2: I know about this world because of my job and
Speaker 2: I live on the internet stuff. Brent doesn't really know
Speaker 2: about this world, you know, he's a gen X man
Speaker 2: who doesn't really have I'm always trying to because we
Speaker 2: have a teenage son. I'm always trying to be like,
Speaker 2: you need to get across it. And his view, like Amelia's,
Speaker 2: is yuck, no.
Speaker 3: Thanks, leave me alone.
Speaker 2: But I made him watch it. I sat him down
Speaker 2: as I were watching it. That's the same thing I
Speaker 2: did with adolescence. I said, I don't care. I want
Speaker 2: to hear about it watching it. He made it through
Speaker 2: one of the adolescence, but he didn't make it through
Speaker 2: all of Louis. And very quickly he said, and he's
Speaker 2: just right, they're just salesman.
Speaker 1: And then I can go and watch is It Cake together?
Speaker 1: Brent would love.
Speaker 2: Very quickly, he said, they're just salesman, and they it
Speaker 2: is very apparent, very quickly that they are. So you know,
Speaker 2: we've already covered the fact that they're all selling something.
Speaker 2: They're all selling like my Krypto scheme, my investment tips,
Speaker 2: my workout plan, and they've just mastered the new economy,
Speaker 2: which is that you use social media for that, you
Speaker 2: use YouTube for that. You make your content more and
Speaker 2: more and more outrageous. To gain the algorithm, the content
Speaker 2: has to be absolutely shocking. They say the most outrageous things,
Speaker 2: but few of them seem to actually believe or stand
Speaker 2: by very much of what they say. They believe when challenged.
Speaker 2: So it's a difficult watch because you have to listen
Speaker 2: to this awfulness. And there is a point in it
Speaker 2: where it does take this dark turn where Louie's out
Speaker 2: with them on a night where Tiki Toki or whatever
Speaker 2: we're supposed to call him, basically sets his goons on
Speaker 2: young men who they've lured to spots with a gay
Speaker 2: dating app, and they're like, we're catching pedophiles. Like it
Speaker 2: gets really grim. There's a so caught on camera when
Speaker 2: it spirals into anti semitism and stuff, there is no
Speaker 2: question it gets very scary. But the guys themselves are
Speaker 2: not scary. They are like I just found every one
Speaker 2: of them, and so did. Brent like to be sad
Speaker 2: and pathetic, but I do want to pick a little bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know that you worship the ground that
Speaker 2: Louis throw walks on. You always have. I do question,
Speaker 2: and I'm saying a bit of this commentary whether his
Speaker 2: documentary style, which has always been I stand back, I record.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of there, and I'm kind of I'm in it,
Speaker 2: so I am the content, but I'm a bit separate.
Speaker 2: I'm not here to depend it gone. So it is,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if it works in this modern
Speaker 2: world because every single one of these guys uses him
Speaker 2: for content. They live stream his interviews, they get their
Speaker 2: audiences to feed them questions they should ask him, They
Speaker 2: mock him, they bully him. I mean, that's not you know.
Speaker 2: I think Louis through can handle that. And towards the
Speaker 2: end HS Tiki Taki's mother points this out to Louis.
Speaker 2: She says, you're using my for content.
Speaker 3: So you're making money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're making money from my son, and so
Speaker 2: he's going to do the same to you.
Speaker 1: Sorry, his mom's involved.
Speaker 2: Well, this is one of the things that, obviously as
Speaker 2: a mum, got me quite upset. He says. Earlier in
Speaker 2: the piece HS Tiki TALKI that my mom hates all
Speaker 2: the things I say. She's a feminist and she doesn't
Speaker 2: like racism and stuff. And then she's in it later
Speaker 2: on and she's like, no, she doesn't like it, but
Speaker 2: she still defends him to the hill because he's her boy.
Speaker 2: At one point Tiki TALKI turns to his mom and says,
Speaker 2: but mum, you don't Most women aren't like you, mum.
Speaker 2: Most women are thick. They're really, really thick. They're not
Speaker 2: like you. And it's just anyway. But I do think
Speaker 2: there is a world in which Louis Throu's he's all
Speaker 2: you know, that wasn't happening when he was embedded with
Speaker 2: the Westboro Baptist Church, when he was interviewed in Trailing
Speaker 2: White supremacy in the American South, he wasn't the story
Speaker 2: in the same way that he is now. He wasn't
Speaker 2: being exploited about it in the same way as now.
Speaker 2: And it's I just think it's changed that game. And
Speaker 2: I don't know how helpful it is.
Speaker 3: I think though, that is the power of documentary and
Speaker 3: the power of him, and the fact that he has
Speaker 3: always just given people enough rope and he's not going
Speaker 3: in and outwardly condemning them or outwardly even you know,
Speaker 3: being super adversarial. I think that is actually stronger because
Speaker 3: it allows us to really see what's beneath it.
Speaker 1: And when we saw what was.
Speaker 3: Beneath it, it wasn't as scary as I think they backed down. Really,
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean.
Speaker 2: But also his strength used to be that he walks
Speaker 2: them into a trap where they'll say something outrageous or
Speaker 2: let an inside thought be an outside thought. But that's
Speaker 2: what these guys do all day, every day. It's just
Speaker 2: say awful stuff. Louis doesn't have to tempt them to
Speaker 2: say anything awful. He doesn't have to trap them. In fact,
Speaker 2: he has to become complicit. There's a really disturbed One
Speaker 2: of the most disturbing parts for me is when he
Speaker 2: goes on the podcast of one of the guys I
Speaker 2: think it's Myron Gaines, who's a really disturbing character. One
Speaker 2: of the things he does on his podcast YouTube stream
Speaker 2: is he gets women, many of whom are like content
Speaker 2: creator or only fans content creators, to come on the
Speaker 2: podcast and he humiliates them. So he'll ask them general
Speaker 2: knowledge questions that he knows they're not going to be
Speaker 2: the answer to, and then he'll mock them, talk about
Speaker 2: their body count, just be generally gross and spread lots
Speaker 2: of misinformation, and Louis has to be on that show
Speaker 2: and he can't really. I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's not just platforming, it's kind of like spurring them on,
Speaker 1: like giving them content. Is that the critique?
Speaker 2: I just found that very I felt like he was
Speaker 2: I don't want to patronize through he's, you know, master
Speaker 2: of his art, but I think these guys are playing
Speaker 2: a different game to him.
Speaker 3: But I think that he is a great lens to
Speaker 3: see that because I think that the game they're playing
Speaker 3: is the Donald Trump game?
Speaker 2: Oh very much.
Speaker 3: Ask me a question, and what I'll do is I'll
Speaker 3: bring up your biggest vulnerability and I'll make you feel
Speaker 3: embarrassed and so on that podcast when Louie's on it,
Speaker 3: I think him being there was excellent because I didn't
Speaker 3: know that this is law in the manisphere. I would
Speaker 3: love to know if you've heard this, Amelia, did you
Speaker 3: know that? Apparently if you've slept with more people than
Speaker 3: your husband, then it's very scientific. But your body hangs
Speaker 3: on to the genes of the other men you've had
Speaker 3: heard and so when you have a baby, that's why
Speaker 3: your baby can look like your ex.
Speaker 1: Because your body is hanging onto the genetic material. That
Speaker 1: sounds legit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.
Speaker 2: Yet it's the women on this show who are dumb
Speaker 2: according to him. According to Marine Gaines, he's like, these
Speaker 2: women don't know what the capital of Bulgaria is and
Speaker 2: yet over here we've got to the DNA of every
Speaker 2: man we've anyway.
Speaker 3: But Louis's reaction to that is because Louis laughs out
Speaker 3: loud and he says, this is the misinformation, like this
Speaker 3: is hell, but is that good?
Speaker 1: Like now that we're talking about this because he drew
Speaker 1: our attention to it. I don't know if that's like good.
Speaker 3: I think being able to laugh about it puts it
Speaker 3: in a different context to how.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, I as I say. In some ways,
Speaker 2: I found this much less scary than I thought, because
Speaker 2: they do all appear to be just fasarts, you know,
Speaker 2: just just empty salesmen, like the equivalent of the guy
Speaker 2: used to come and try and sell you a used
Speaker 2: car or whatever. And they don't care at all about
Speaker 2: the ideology. None of these guys seem to care even
Speaker 2: a little bit about the ideology they're peddling. But the
Speaker 2: problem is their followers probably do buy into it. And
Speaker 2: that was confronting. But then the other thing was is
Speaker 2: I was telling Amelia about it this morning, and I
Speaker 2: was saying, all these guys are all so unseerious. They
Speaker 2: can't stand by a single thing they said At the NDHS.
Speaker 2: Tickie Talkie is saying, yeah, I said, I hate Jews,
Speaker 2: but I don't, like, I'm not anti Semitic. I just
Speaker 2: say that, and I say I hate gay people, but hey,
Speaker 2: that guy over there, he's gazed. But like, they can't
Speaker 2: stand by a single thing they're not serious people. And
Speaker 2: I said that to Melia and she said.
Speaker 1: No, one's serious anymore. And it got me thinking about
Speaker 1: the fact that I remember when in the early days
Speaker 1: of Twitter everyone had in their bios rts do not
Speaker 1: equal endorsements. Retweets do not equal endorsements. The idea was
Speaker 1: that if you posted something that someone else said posted,
Speaker 1: you weren't saying you agreed with it. You just thought
Speaker 1: it was important to get that idea into the circulation.
Speaker 1: For whatever reason. It was newsworthy, it was provocative, it
Speaker 1: was interesting. But I think the issue now is that
Speaker 1: we are being led and influenced and governed by people
Speaker 1: who don't believe what they're peddling and are just saying
Speaker 1: it to get attention. But the line between just saying
Speaker 1: it and living it has gotten completely blurred.
Speaker 3: Agree. Agree, And that's exactly what Louis has said in
Speaker 3: interviews since that that line is really really unclear, and
Speaker 3: that these ideas have been around. You could recite what
Speaker 3: these men say. It's been around for decades and decades,
Speaker 3: but they were in like pick up artist books where
Speaker 3: maybe some ice man and all that. Yes, however, many
Speaker 3: people would read them. The problem now is that the
Speaker 3: more radical you are, and the more extreme you are,
Speaker 3: and the more offensive you are, the more attention, the
Speaker 3: more attention you get.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't really matter in a way if you
Speaker 2: don't believe theti Semitic bullshit you're spouting, if it's all
Speaker 2: out there and getting shared and disseminated.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and so basically Lewis's point that he said in
Speaker 3: these interviews is that it's really a question of policy
Speaker 3: and of algorithms, which is interesting because Australia is trying
Speaker 3: to do that and I kind of think, I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's working.
Speaker 2: I bet a lot of people who are listening to
Speaker 2: this are like, I've got a son, Should I watch it?
Speaker 2: Should I watch it with them?
Speaker 1: Whatever?
Speaker 2: I have a son who's in this bull's eye. All
Speaker 2: the people who came up to these guys, by the way,
Speaker 2: because they're quite big celebrities in their world, were young,
Speaker 2: mostly young. Lots of young boys and some young men
Speaker 2: really like young, like twelve like young come up and
Speaker 2: they all want their picture taker work them, and they
Speaker 2: all want them to do various in cell signs and stuff.
Speaker 3: There's no forty year old men who are like, hey,
Speaker 3: just tiktoki, here's my son like that.
Speaker 2: But it did give me some good jumping off points
Speaker 2: for conversations with my son about it, and one of
Speaker 2: them was very much about, how have you noticed that
Speaker 2: all these guys are in order to inflate because they're
Speaker 2: basically praying on young men who feel like they've got
Speaker 2: no economic future in various ways. Is there anyone who's
Speaker 2: telling you they can blow you up by putting other
Speaker 2: people down? That should always be a red flag. But
Speaker 2: I think that if you're not familiar with this world,
Speaker 2: it is a really informative watch. If you've got kids
Speaker 2: who are swimming in this world, or indeed, if you
Speaker 2: want to understand what Tyson on Maps is consuming in
Speaker 2: his spare time. I think he's probably got some money
Speaker 2: invested in hs tiki Talki's.
Speaker 3: Financial, definitely, definitely, And he I think is a testament
Speaker 3: to the fact that people really do recite these views. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he's actually a little bit old for the demo, The
Speaker 3: Bloody Tyson, I do reckon. What Louie was very good
Speaker 3: at exposing was that at the underbelly of all of
Speaker 3: this is selling stuff to teenagers. And so you say,
Speaker 3: Holly that your flag is for your son is going
Speaker 3: to be If they're trying to put other people down.
Speaker 3: My flag, yeah, my flag is always are they selling
Speaker 3: you something? If someone's telling you a really extreme thing
Speaker 3: and then they're saying and subscribe to my finance app
Speaker 3: or by my course, then don't freaking well it like,
Speaker 3: I don't believe what they're saying. They're just trying to
Speaker 3: sell you shit.
Speaker 2: I know. But everyone on the internet is trying to
Speaker 2: sell you. Actually, oh god.
Speaker 3: It's really anyway. The internet is the problem anyway.
Speaker 2: Claire's right, there are some lolls. So if you're not
Speaker 2: worried about the end of the world, just laugh at
Speaker 2: these silly men. Silly silly little men.
Speaker 1: After the break, do you have a reply only friend?
Speaker 1: Or are you a reply only friend? The comedian Tig
Speaker 1: Nataro was on the Best People podcast recently. This is
Speaker 1: hosted by a news anchor called Nicole Wallace, and she
Speaker 1: said something about friendship which really struck a chord on
Speaker 1: the Internet. She was talking about her friendship with Cheryl Hines,
Speaker 1: who was an actor who was in Cobe Your Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: She played Larry David's wife and then ex wife. She
Speaker 1: happens to be married to RFK Junior, who is a
Speaker 1: Trump administration official. But this is not going to be
Speaker 1: a discussion about politics. The nature of Cheryl and Tig's
Speaker 1: fallout they were very good friends, they are no longer
Speaker 1: was political. But what Tiggs said on this podcast about
Speaker 1: how they fell out, I think will resonate with a
Speaker 1: lot of people. It certainly resonated with me. The Internet
Speaker 1: is now calling the people that Tig describes in this
Speaker 1: video reply only friends, and you'll see why. Let's take
Speaker 1: a listen.
Speaker 7: And she would respond very pleasantly, thanks lady, Oh this
Speaker 7: means so much, and I love you and miss you
Speaker 7: and all of that. When I realized one day she
Speaker 7: doesn't ever reach out to me anymore. She's responds to me,
Speaker 7: but she doesn't reach out to me, and I had
Speaker 7: to kind of shake myself out of denial that, oh
Speaker 7: she's she's gone.
Speaker 1: So the term that the Internet is using to describe
Speaker 1: this kind of person, this kind of friend, is a
Speaker 1: reply only friend. And I got into a really interesting
Speaker 1: conversation on Reddit about this where people were disagreeing about it.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people said that reply only friends
Speaker 1: are just something you've got to deal with. As you
Speaker 1: get older, like you learn that there are people who
Speaker 1: are just not going to put in the effort and
Speaker 1: you just have to decide whether or not you're okay
Speaker 1: with that. But then there were other people who were
Speaker 1: saying that it's wrong to keep scoring this way, that
Speaker 1: if you want to see someone and spend time with someone,
Speaker 1: that you should do that friendship is not about tallies.
Speaker 1: It's not about figuring out who's putting in more work
Speaker 1: at any given time. And then there was another really
Speaker 1: interesting point that I had a thought about in defense
Speaker 1: of the reply only friend that said that taking that
Speaker 1: kind of initiative is about executive functioning, and that is
Speaker 1: something that some people have more of than others, and
Speaker 1: it's wrong to kind of judge or to think that
Speaker 1: that means that someone doesn't want to be friends with you. Claire,
Speaker 1: do you think that the reply only friend phenomenon is
Speaker 1: real or justified or do you think that some of
Speaker 1: these other sort of defenses of the reply only friend
Speaker 1: do hold water.
Speaker 3: I realized when when you sent this that I am
Speaker 3: a reply only are you?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 3: I am? I am going to defend.
Speaker 1: Okay in defensive reply only friends good because I am
Speaker 1: not so I want to hear the defense.
Speaker 2: I want to hear why you don't like them though, too,
Speaker 2: before we do.
Speaker 1: It, because I feel the same way as Tig. I
Speaker 1: feel like sick of always putting in the effort, and
Speaker 1: it's hard not to take it personally when they just
Speaker 1: never meet me and they never take the initiative with me.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get better as I get older, and
Speaker 3: as I maybe get my priorities right and realize that
Speaker 3: relationships are the most important thing in life, like all
Speaker 3: of that stuff, and also as people go through more shit,
Speaker 3: Like I'm very aware that you can't just be the
Speaker 3: reply only friend when people are going through hard stuff.
Speaker 3: You need to be reaching out. But I will say
Speaker 3: I really agree with the point that I don't think
Speaker 3: it's about keeping tallies. I have friendship dynamics where, for
Speaker 3: better or worse, it is understood that I'm the reply
Speaker 3: only friend, and I'm the reply only friend, but like,
Speaker 3: I will show up, so it's like I'll get the invite,
Speaker 3: but I will show up, And a lot of people
Speaker 3: don't show up to the invite, so that's quite reliable
Speaker 3: that I will. I will reply, but.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into the end less back
Speaker 2: and forth.
Speaker 1: About the thing.
Speaker 3: No, and I'm not going to take the initiative of
Speaker 3: like picking where to have don And this is the
Speaker 3: other thing, the very intricacies. It's like, so we should
Speaker 3: pick where we have dinner. I'm bad at that. I
Speaker 3: will make a horrible, horrible decision. Everybody will have a
Speaker 3: bad meal, whereas somebody else might enjoy food.
Speaker 1: But Claire Devil's advocate, do you not think you could
Speaker 1: be the one to say, let's have dinner, you pick
Speaker 1: the restaurant. I'm bad at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: See, that's really that is really good, And that is
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to get better at, is the kind
Speaker 3: of outreach and just letting people know I'm there. But
Speaker 3: I'm very, very bad at the making plans and the
Speaker 3: making a call and all of that. But I also
Speaker 3: loved Tigg says later on, and it is a bit
Speaker 3: specific to the nature of her friendship. Breakdown a line
Speaker 3: about people deserving a friend when they least deserve a far.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love this. When someone doesn't deserve a friend,
Speaker 1: that's when they need the friend the most. And I
Speaker 1: think that's relevant to this conversation because sometimes someone can
Speaker 1: really be going through something and they just cannot be
Speaker 1: there for you in the same way they cannot be
Speaker 1: reaching out to you. And I think that's a really
Speaker 1: valid point, and it's sort of a caveat to the
Speaker 1: idea that reply only friends and not worth the effort.
Speaker 3: That also goes for maybe times in people's lives where
Speaker 3: they've made horrible mistakes, where they've behaved badly, where they
Speaker 3: have said something stupid. And what I found interesting about
Speaker 3: Tig's particular experience is the difference between when somebody has
Speaker 3: maybe exposed a character flaw or a difference of opinion,
Speaker 3: and when that becomes a fundamental clash of values. And
Speaker 3: I think that that is kind of underlying the conversation
Speaker 3: she's having more whereas the reply only friend is a
Speaker 3: bit more of the surface level, Like the problem is
Speaker 3: whether there's a fundamental clash of values.
Speaker 2: I loved listen on last week's One of Me has
Speaker 2: Subscribe episodes. Last week, you, Amelia and Me have talked
Speaker 2: about friendship, including a bit of this conversation, but then
Speaker 2: about the things you need for friendship, and it was
Speaker 2: like proximity, live stage.
Speaker 3: Something energy with energy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love this right. It did also make
Speaker 2: me wonder listening to that conversation in whether or not
Speaker 2: we all might have slightly different definitions of friendship and
Speaker 2: what we want from friendships because and like you, Amelia,
Speaker 2: my life experiences that I've spent many, many years now
Speaker 2: in no proximity to some of my favorite people. So
Speaker 2: I'm very comfortable with not being constantly in contact with people.
Speaker 2: Like I. If someone I haven't spoken to for a
Speaker 2: year messages me and says, let's have a drink, my
Speaker 2: first thought is not, where.
Speaker 1: Have you been?
Speaker 2: Like I'm like, oh, that'd be great. Yeah, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, I don't. I think there are
Speaker 2: levels of friendship that this isn't true for, but that
Speaker 2: in general, constant contact is not my definition of friendship,
Speaker 2: so I don't think therefore that's why this doesn't like
Speaker 2: reply only friends don't upset me so much because I'm
Speaker 2: kind of like, well, who's got time to be messaging
Speaker 2: every day?
Speaker 1: Like that's interesting. It sparked something in me that I
Speaker 1: have one friend who has that ladder but is not
Speaker 1: anywhere near where I am living right now. In fact,
Speaker 1: she's not in Australia, and she texted me this morning,
Speaker 1: are we still doing Underwire Bras, and if you'd scrolled
Speaker 1: up in our conversation, we probably spoke two weeks ago
Speaker 1: about something completely different. That kind of friendship where you
Speaker 1: can just go straight in with the random remark is
Speaker 1: how you keep a friendship alive over many years and
Speaker 1: a cross big distances.
Speaker 2: And you and me I had a really good chat
Speaker 2: about that, because the problem with the constant contact stuff
Speaker 2: is that sometimes you've got lots to talk about with
Speaker 2: somebody you know, so you might be in a period
Speaker 2: of high engagement, but then you might not. And to me,
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that friendship is dying or in danger
Speaker 2: or anything. It's just a life thing. But the reach
Speaker 2: out is crucial. And you made the point in that conversation,
Speaker 2: which I thought is really true, that how are you?
Speaker 2: Is the worst question?
Speaker 1: Oh it's all And.
Speaker 2: I know I'm guilty of it often, right because I'll
Speaker 2: suddenly think I haven't talked to Betty in months and
Speaker 2: I've got two manch while I'm not doing anything.
Speaker 1: It's actually even worse if they're going through something. And
Speaker 1: if I'm going through something and I get the how.
Speaker 2: Are so I'll be like, hey, Betty, how are you?
Speaker 2: And like what kind of a question is that, And
Speaker 2: you guys talked about different openers. I think you're right.
Speaker 2: Like my friendships that have a lot of energy, even
Speaker 2: if we don't see each other very often, you just
Speaker 2: can kick off with any message. But my concern with
Speaker 2: us putting too many rules around how regular contact has
Speaker 2: to be and all those things is that we're always
Speaker 2: on the lookout for a slight, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So somebody reaches out to me and is like, did
Speaker 2: you see Chalamaig's ridiculous mustache at the oscars? And if
Speaker 2: I start off with or where have you been?
Speaker 1: I haven't heard from you in six months? Then that's
Speaker 1: not No, that's not nice either. I think it's about
Speaker 1: calibrating your check ins to a mutually agreed level. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, if that friend who texted me about the
Speaker 1: underwire Bras had texted me this morning, how are you?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: What to respond to this? Yes, but to the end
Speaker 1: of why Bras, I stopped everything? I texted her like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are doing sorry to inform you.
Speaker 2: You're giving someone a gift of making a reply quite
Speaker 2: easy too, write yaues. It's like what are you eating
Speaker 2: right now? Or like I don't know whatever, like some
Speaker 2: more good questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another example because on the subscriber that you're
Speaker 1: talking about, Maya asked me how I have any friends,
Speaker 1: because I have moved around a lot, and I said,
Speaker 1: I actually think that I have a lot of friends.
Speaker 1: And one of my friends lives in California and we
Speaker 1: don't speak often. I've never lived in California. But I
Speaker 1: was proud of my check in with her. The other day.
Speaker 1: I asked her how many times she'd exercised that week
Speaker 1: or how many pilates classes she'd taken, because she'd told
Speaker 1: me in a previous conversation she was feeling a bit down.
Speaker 1: She wasn't getting to pilates. She wanted to get to
Speaker 1: Politi's more because it was making her feel better. And
Speaker 1: she literally wrote back with a number, and then I
Speaker 1: felt like we had this micro connection for the moment,
Speaker 1: which I think was really good. One idea that Mia
Speaker 1: has pioneered is she asks people. She's asked me for
Speaker 1: three words. So I went to Washington, DC recently on
Speaker 1: work and it was obviously, you know, a sort of
Speaker 1: dramatic experience in a number of ways, and Mia texted
Speaker 1: me while I was away three words for Washington, and
Speaker 1: it's really helpful to just be asked to nominate three
Speaker 1: words when you're having an experience where you are feeling
Speaker 1: a lot of big feelings and you don't quite know
Speaker 1: how to put that into words. I think the main
Speaker 1: tip is like not to say how are you. I
Speaker 1: think it's just that is conversation killer. I like also
Speaker 1: asking someone if they're reading anything good, if they're watching
Speaker 1: the pit because I'm obsessed.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, But I also think in terms of the
Speaker 3: reply only friend and what both of you were saying
Speaker 3: about those kind of I don't know, different more novel
Speaker 3: conversation starts. I'm good at that, Like I will see
Speaker 3: a piece of gossip or something going on on TikTok
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I know who to say this to you,
Speaker 3: and we'll have a chat about that, and then we
Speaker 3: may not talk for six months. That's fine. But with
Speaker 3: a reply only friend, I think friendship, like any relationship,
Speaker 3: is based on a dynamic. So I think in some
Speaker 3: ways I've kind of paired up with friends who were
Speaker 3: the reach out friend. Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: And I was wondering, Amelia, because you tell a story
Speaker 3: on the subs episode that we won't get into because
Speaker 3: it's so juicy it just needs its space. There about
Speaker 3: you being very assertive with a friend about a very
Speaker 3: big life decision. Are you friends with people who are
Speaker 3: similarly assertive?
Speaker 1: Oh, that's interesting, I think so, like if someone was
Speaker 1: that direct with you, well, maybe that's pretty direct. And
Speaker 1: I feel like we have sometimes our friendship has gone
Speaker 1: through a stage of just sending each other articles, and
Speaker 1: that is a way of communicating because maybe there's too
Speaker 1: much going on in both of our lives to debrief properly.
Speaker 1: We don't even really want to get into it. So
Speaker 1: the sending of articles is a way of being in
Speaker 1: touch without having to get into it at any given time.
Speaker 3: And it's like, here's where I'm at. Ideologically, that's not
Speaker 3: your thing.
Speaker 2: Like I've got friends who we just send pictures like
Speaker 2: this is what I'm looking at. This is what I mean,
Speaker 2: glimmers when you're going through a hard time, like this
Speaker 2: is something will make you laugh, like, but just picture,
Speaker 2: no pressure to respond. I relate Claire with the fact
Speaker 2: that because I'm not a very good check in friend,
Speaker 2: a lot of my friends are good check in friends.
Speaker 2: And that's probably said, doesn't say anything good about me,
Speaker 2: but I feel quite smothered if people want things from
Speaker 2: me all the time. I'm like, eh, but I.
Speaker 1: Do you suggest social plans?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh definitely I will. My favorite way to socialize
Speaker 2: is one on one over a walk, a coffee or drink, right,
Speaker 2: So I much prefer that then group dinners and lots
Speaker 2: of things like that. So I will definitely. I did
Speaker 2: it yesterday. So it was like admin half hour. I
Speaker 2: had a minute, and there were three of my friends
Speaker 2: who I haven't seen for ages, because I've got lots
Speaker 2: of friends who might not see for months, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: three dates, pick one, three dates.
Speaker 3: Pick one.
Speaker 2: So I will do that. But you get into a
Speaker 2: and rhythm with friends, and I think I just don't
Speaker 2: necessarily think that the judge of a good friend is
Speaker 2: how regularly you talk to each other.
Speaker 1: No, I guess I'd just add that speaking on behalf
Speaker 1: of the reach out friends to the reply only friends.
Speaker 1: Just make sure that you let us know that you're
Speaker 1: thinking of us, even if you don't want to suggest
Speaker 1: a date right now, or you can't get into this
Speaker 1: big thing that's happening in your life, or you're not
Speaker 1: watching the pit I still want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: That's all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's good to know.
Speaker 2: That is all. We've got time for out louders on
Speaker 2: this Oscar Monday. We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Well,
Speaker 2: Mia will be back in your ears tomorrow with a
Speaker 2: full red carpet fashion rundown with the amazing m Vernum.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear that.
Speaker 1: That's going to be great.
Speaker 2: It is, but we will be back in your ears
Speaker 2: on Wednesday. Massive thank you to our team for helping
Speaker 2: us put the show together as always see then.
Speaker 1: Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Mummyer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.