Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to momam are out loud. It's what
Speaker 2: women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the nineteenth of
Speaker 2: I was going to say October nov my.
Speaker 1: Name is Hollywayen Right, I'm Amelia Luster and.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. I've been in New Zealand for a
Speaker 3: few days.
Speaker 4: Claire is back.
Speaker 3: She's going to be back for Friday's episode because I
Speaker 3: have a very very big week just on New Zealand.
Speaker 4: Have either of you seen Lord of the Rings?
Speaker 1: I watched it every single year around New Year's Eve.
Speaker 4: Really like all of them, love it. Have you seen
Speaker 4: the Hobbit Yeah?
Speaker 1: Not as good.
Speaker 4: The out loud as are horrified that I've never seen
Speaker 4: Lord of the Rings? Very really mad.
Speaker 2: How have you managed to live your life and avoid that?
Speaker 3: I've had people try and force me, sit me down,
Speaker 3: and I just I can't watch more than about.
Speaker 4: Six minutes of it.
Speaker 2: So did you go to Hobbiton?
Speaker 4: I went to Hobbiton, which I love.
Speaker 2: Did you understand Hobbiton? If you haven't in any.
Speaker 4: Of these totally did?
Speaker 2: What's this strange little place?
Speaker 4: Why is it all so little?
Speaker 3: I actually really really rated it. I thought it was
Speaker 3: awesome and was there with the two year old who
Speaker 3: just went it's the city made for me. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: get to go into one of the houses and play
Speaker 3: with things and stuff, which was awesome.
Speaker 1: But I would love to do that. And you haven't
Speaker 1: even watched.
Speaker 4: I know, I know it's sick.
Speaker 3: It's incredible, and I just appreciated the movie set element.
Speaker 3: That's like the biggest movie set in the world. But yet, nah,
Speaker 3: I haven't read it.
Speaker 4: Have you read it?
Speaker 2: I read it when I was a kid. My dad
Speaker 2: read it to me.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: Brent's obsessed. He's one of those well he's a key
Speaker 2: way of course, he's completely obsessed. He's got all the
Speaker 2: director's cuts. He tries to make the kids watch it
Speaker 2: all the time. Billy has been reading it and he
Speaker 2: kind of got yeah, it's the whole thing. You got
Speaker 2: to get into order the rings.
Speaker 4: Do I have to watch it?
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, in it and he's like, really really hot. Actually,
Speaker 2: Orlando is probably more your thing, young Orlando Blue is
Speaker 2: the elf king hotness.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I'll give it. Yeah, he lost me
Speaker 4: at elf King, but I like the hotness.
Speaker 2: Dear anyway, here's what's made our agenda today. Eyelids are
Speaker 2: over and there's an essay that everybody has to read
Speaker 2: about surgery. These are just a couple of the silly
Speaker 2: things around about women's faces this week.
Speaker 1: And millennials aren't having affairs anymore. I want to talk
Speaker 1: about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Speaker 4: And state funerals.
Speaker 3: Two prominent Australians have been offered and accepted them in
Speaker 3: the last few weeks, and we discuss what that means
Speaker 3: and why a lot of people are very, very mad.
Speaker 2: Well, first, in case you missed it, Michelle Obama, which
Speaker 2: he's been saying a lot of good stuff lately. We
Speaker 2: remember we talked about her last week with her parenting advice.
Speaker 2: But I have one question from Melia lest after you
Speaker 2: hear this little bit about Michelle Obama talking about women
Speaker 2: running for president.
Speaker 5: As we saw in this past election, sadly we ain't ready.
Speaker 5: That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running,
Speaker 5: because you all are lying you're not ready for a woman.
Speaker 5: You are not, so don't waste my time. You know,
Speaker 5: we had a lot of growing up to do, and
Speaker 5: theyre's still I'm sadly, a lot of men who do
Speaker 5: not feel like they can be led by a woman,
Speaker 5: and we saw it.
Speaker 2: Is that true, Amelia Lester.
Speaker 1: It is a bit of a split screen, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Because I saw this everywhere this weekend, And then just
Speaker 1: before we came into record, I saw that President Trump
Speaker 1: was on Air Force one this morning and he called
Speaker 1: a female reporter a piggy. He said, stop talking, piggy. So,
Speaker 1: you know, on the one hand, I can see why
Speaker 1: she says that Americans are not ready. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit more optimistic than Michelle on this.
Speaker 1: I mean, what we had to remember is Americans gave
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton the popular vote, and seventy five million Americans
Speaker 1: voted for Kamila Harris. There were a lot of things
Speaker 1: going on in that election that were weird and unusual.
Speaker 1: She had one hundred and six days to run. I
Speaker 1: just wonder if things might have just gone a little
Speaker 1: bit differently, we would be living in a completely different
Speaker 1: timeline talking about how evolved Americans are for voting in
Speaker 1: an American woman to be president. So I feel just
Speaker 1: a little bit more optimistic than her and the people who.
Speaker 4: Are saying to her, run run run, are.
Speaker 3: Not the same people who wouldn't vote for her, Like,
Speaker 3: I don't think they're lying. I think whether the US
Speaker 3: is ready is a really valid question, and I totally
Speaker 3: appreciate and respect her position of like, don't waste my time.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do this to be racially villified,
Speaker 3: to be the subject of sexism, all of the things
Speaker 3: we know it would happen, Like all power to her.
Speaker 3: I completely understand her position. But as you say, seventy
Speaker 3: five million people vote for Kamala Harris, that means a
Speaker 3: lot of Americans are ready. As we record this episode,
Speaker 3: the doors of Saint Andrew's Cathedral are opening, just literally
Speaker 3: a few steps from we are sitting right now, hundreds
Speaker 3: and hundreds of Australians will gather for the state funeral
Speaker 3: of John Laws. He passed away at the age of
Speaker 3: ninety ten days ago, and he was a broadcaster, a
Speaker 3: sort of.
Speaker 4: The first shock jock.
Speaker 3: I suppose for more than seven decades he was known
Speaker 3: as the Golden Tonsils was his nickname, and Chris Mins,
Speaker 3: the New South Wales Premier, says he left a lasting
Speaker 3: mark on Australian media. For those reasons, they've decided that
Speaker 3: he should you receive this honor. But Holly, there's more
Speaker 3: to Laws's story. What is sort of the controversial aspects
Speaker 3: of what he's known for.
Speaker 2: So obviously he's a very famous man, and every prime
Speaker 2: minister that we've ever had has had to go and
Speaker 2: bend the knee, and indeed they'll be doing it again today.
Speaker 2: But the people who argue that Laws's reputation was not
Speaker 2: really unsolid enough to have warranted this would point to
Speaker 2: things like in nineteen ninety nine, he was part of
Speaker 2: a ski that was broadly called the cash for Comment scandal,
Speaker 2: where it was clear that he was promoting brands and
Speaker 2: things without disclosing them. In some ways that seems almost
Speaker 2: quaint in these days, but at the time that was
Speaker 2: a really big deal on talkback radio, and he knew
Speaker 2: that that was going to follow him when he did
Speaker 2: this interview with Lee Sales a few years ago, which
Speaker 2: was iconic. He sat there with his bourbon do you remember,
Speaker 2: and his sunglasses on, and one of the things he
Speaker 2: said was, remember the alleged cash for comment garbage that
Speaker 2: went on.
Speaker 1: I'm going to die with that.
Speaker 2: Even though all I was accused of was being excessively
Speaker 2: loyal to my sponsors that he also in two thousand
Speaker 2: and four, he and his colleague Steve Price were found
Speaker 2: guilty of homosexual vilification. Again cashed your mind back to
Speaker 2: a time when the bloc started and there was a
Speaker 2: male gay couple on it which was like ooh radical
Speaker 2: on TV, and both Laws and Price, in talking about it,
Speaker 2: used all kinds of slurs that you would never use
Speaker 2: now and should never have used them, and they both
Speaker 2: got really hefty fines for it. Other things he did,
Speaker 2: he made some really dismissive comments about mental health and
Speaker 2: some inappropriate talkback segments about sexual abuse. And he also
Speaker 2: was very well known for having very conservative workplace policies
Speaker 2: when it came to women. He called his producers handmaidens,
Speaker 2: and he insisted on skirts or dresses at.
Speaker 1: Work at all times.
Speaker 2: So these are some of the things that obviously follow
Speaker 2: the laws legacy that are not quite so illustrious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's why some have expressed there's been kind
Speaker 3: of a loud chorus of discomfort about him being afforded
Speaker 3: a state funeral, which, to be clear, that means that
Speaker 3: it is funded by the state government, often in partnership
Speaker 3: with the federal government. In shot we're paying for it,
Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars paying for it.
Speaker 1: And how much are we talking?
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's not clear and it varies from person
Speaker 3: to person. But the big one that I remember a
Speaker 3: lot of discussion about was Shane warn He was afforded
Speaker 3: a state funeral. It was about one point six million
Speaker 3: dollars day. I think it cost tax pays.
Speaker 4: Now, another point.
Speaker 3: Of this that makes people annoyed is that John Laws
Speaker 3: made a lot of money. He was one of the
Speaker 3: most well paid radio broadcasters of his time. Estimates say,
Speaker 3: you know, in the millions every year. So could his
Speaker 3: family have afforded it? Absolutely? And so I guess the
Speaker 3: question is given his wealth. Given also the controversy do
Speaker 3: we think he should be afforded this state funeral or
Speaker 3: should it be private something that the family pays for
Speaker 3: like the rest of us.
Speaker 4: What do you reckon, Amelia?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in a bit of two minds about it,
Speaker 1: because look, he obviously was really widely loved by millions
Speaker 1: of Australians and that was one of the reasons given
Speaker 1: by the state government for holding this funeral by a
Speaker 1: particular demographic segment of Australians. But nonetheless, millions of Australians.
Speaker 1: And also what I really appreciate about his legacy is
Speaker 1: that no one ever knew what his actual politics were.
Speaker 1: He kept them very much away from the microphone. He
Speaker 1: supported some Labor prime ministers, he supported some Liberal prime ministers.
Speaker 1: So I don't think that in any way he could
Speaker 1: be accused of being a partisan figure. That said, for me,
Speaker 1: the crux of this, and the reason I feel uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with it is because of the money element, not because
Speaker 1: his family could have afforded the state funeral. It's more
Speaker 1: because why do we put on a state funeral? Arguably
Speaker 1: it's to say thank you to someone who has served
Speaker 1: our nation in some meaningful way. And you can certainly
Speaker 1: make an argument that Laws has done that. But as
Speaker 1: you point out Jesse, he was rewarded handsomely for that.
Speaker 1: In he got millions of dollars in compensation every year
Speaker 1: for what he did. He was very professionally successful. I
Speaker 1: want to contrast that with someone like, for instance, Arthur Leggett,
Speaker 1: who I wasn't aware of, but a state funeral was
Speaker 1: held for him in Western Australia earlier this year. He
Speaker 1: was Australia's last World War Two prisoner.
Speaker 4: Of war.
Speaker 1: He was held by the Japanese for four years. He
Speaker 1: was captured when he was twenty two, and that seems
Speaker 1: to me to be a service to the nation that
Speaker 1: he was not particularly financially enriched for after that. Or
Speaker 1: another example is Charles Perkins Charlie Perkins, again serving his nation,
Speaker 1: but not really receiving financial rewards for that. So in
Speaker 1: the case of both those men, it's really a way
Speaker 1: of saying thank you in a way that they didn't
Speaker 1: get money for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like what you say about service, And I
Speaker 3: guess that the confusion or the complication here is that
Speaker 3: the other state funeral that has been afforded and will
Speaker 3: be happening in the coming days or weeks is Graham Richardson,
Speaker 3: who is a former Labor senator and instrumental in labor politics.
Speaker 3: But Kate McClymont, the Sinney Morning Herald's journalist, has come
Speaker 3: out and said this is a story I could never
Speaker 3: write like she had so much to say about Richardson.
Speaker 1: The article was jaw dropping.
Speaker 3: It was it was incredible, from corruption to stories of how.
Speaker 1: Swiss bank accounts demanding sex worker services as a form
Speaker 1: of payment from dodgy business to yours exactly.
Speaker 3: Like a lot of people have said, whatever is good deeds,
Speaker 3: he's bad deeds outweighed them, Holly. I mean, you could
Speaker 3: say richardson life of service labor politician, like, is this
Speaker 3: what we do now? If you get a state funeral,
Speaker 3: does that mean that everyone gets to prosecute everything you
Speaker 3: ever did and whether you're a good enough person to
Speaker 3: be allowed to have our tax paid dollars.
Speaker 2: I just think that's an inevitability of having even a
Speaker 2: thing that is a state funeral, Like, it's kind of
Speaker 2: a strange tradition. I agree with Amelia that I guess
Speaker 2: my particular leanings would be to people who of great
Speaker 2: acts of great service to the nation, who couldn't afford
Speaker 2: a decent sendoff, and who need to be rewarded and
Speaker 2: remembered in a fitting way. I think, great chip in
Speaker 2: for their funeral.
Speaker 4: But do you think about former pms.
Speaker 2: I think, well, even that, I mean, that's an active
Speaker 2: service to the nation. But again, you get paid for it,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't. I think it's a strange. What
Speaker 2: fascinates me the most about state funerals is that you
Speaker 2: get offered them, right, so you get offered them by
Speaker 2: the government, state government, federal government, and the family are
Speaker 2: the ones who decide. And so that tells you I
Speaker 2: think that the people who get them, they really wanted one,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like Lawsy, he would have
Speaker 2: really wanted a state funeral. He wants everybody lined up
Speaker 2: there today, all the former pms, all his like rivals
Speaker 2: in radio or forced to wear a suit and be
Speaker 2: there for the TV cameras. Whereas famously Steve Irwin, very
Speaker 2: famous Australian of a very different kind, was offered one
Speaker 2: and his family were like, nah, he wouldn't like that.
Speaker 2: And Betty Cuffbert, she was an Olympic legend, female Olympic
Speaker 2: legend from you know, the olden days as it were.
Speaker 2: She died this year and she was offered one too,
Speaker 2: and her family were like, nah, she would have hated that.
Speaker 2: We want a quiet, private service that just remembers her
Speaker 2: as she would have liked to be remembered. So I'm
Speaker 2: kind of fascinated by the idea of if you were
Speaker 2: offered one, if you'd take it.
Speaker 3: There is some like pomp and ceremony, it will be
Speaker 3: a real spectacle, the John Laws thing, and some people
Speaker 3: do deserve that. Fred Hollows had a state funeral and
Speaker 3: his contribution to Australia, you know, he was someone who
Speaker 3: restored the eyesight of so many Australians and people overseas,
Speaker 3: enormous legacy, Like yes, about down.
Speaker 2: It's going to be televised too. So I was on
Speaker 2: I was watching seven this morning and they were very
Speaker 2: heavily promoting it. And it's interesting because it wasn't a
Speaker 2: state funeral, I don't think, but one of the most
Speaker 2: memorable televised Australian funerals I can remember, and it happened
Speaker 2: in the same place was Michael Hutchins's funeral and that
Speaker 2: was across the road here, and the optics of all
Speaker 2: these glamorous women like Kylie Minogue, Helena Christian Coates and
Speaker 2: in their like little veils and it was like Nick
Speaker 2: Cave was playing into your arms. It was like a
Speaker 2: royal event and it seemed very fitting. I don't know
Speaker 2: who paid for that, but it seemed very fitting. And
Speaker 2: I watched it on television and was very moved. And
Speaker 2: it's kind of I don't know, it's really interesting in
Speaker 2: that status in death and who turns up and all that.
Speaker 2: We're very interested in it.
Speaker 1: I feel like I want to ask you, Jesse, because
Speaker 1: you know Fred Hollows. We can all agree former prisoner
Speaker 1: of war. Yes, but you raise a really interesting edge case,
Speaker 1: which is prime ministers because on the one hand service,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, enrichment for that service in many ways,
Speaker 1: either because they receive a generous salary while they're in office,
Speaker 1: but also after they've been in office, there are all
Speaker 1: sorts of business opportunities for former prime ministers. So what
Speaker 1: do you think do you think prime ministers should get
Speaker 1: a state funeral?
Speaker 3: I understand why they do, and because their legacy is
Speaker 3: so tied up with the lives of Australians and what
Speaker 3: they did, and I guess that they do say it
Speaker 3: as a role of service. I mean, there are a
Speaker 3: lot of people who have roles of service that don't
Speaker 3: receive that monetary reward.
Speaker 4: But I guess it.
Speaker 3: Comes down to who chooses who has a state funeral,
Speaker 3: and if it's politicians, if it's often the Prime Minister
Speaker 3: or the Premier.
Speaker 4: They know these people personally.
Speaker 3: Right, and like they see this as and even I'm
Speaker 3: thinking of like Queen Elizabeth right, So many people wanted
Speaker 3: to go and show their support to the family and
Speaker 3: have this kind of collective moment of mourning for that loss,
Speaker 3: which I kind of appreciate as well. But I remember
Speaker 3: feeling really uncomfortable around the time of George Pell's death
Speaker 3: because state funeral a few years before totally would have
Speaker 3: been on the cards. But it was Daniel Andrews, I think,
Speaker 3: who came out the Victorian premier and said that would
Speaker 3: be so distressing to his victims. And it was a
Speaker 3: private ceremony. There were still people who showed up and protested.
Speaker 3: But whether or not you accept it is interesting because
Speaker 3: there's not a person. You go through John Laws's life,
Speaker 3: you even go through Fred Hollows's life, right, and there
Speaker 3: are moments where you go probably didn't age too well
Speaker 3: those comments that they made twenty thirty years ago. And
Speaker 3: when it does become everyone's business, then everyone discussing whether
Speaker 3: that person was a morally pure person is something I
Speaker 3: don't think anyone wants to do in the days after
Speaker 3: someone dies, like I'd feel for John Laws's family, I
Speaker 3: feel for Graham Richardson's family. Death is a is something
Speaker 3: that affects those closest to them, and I kind of
Speaker 3: hate the way that we all go.
Speaker 2: But if you're going to accept it. It's the opposite
Speaker 2: of private morning, It's the opposite. Yeah. So I'm sure
Speaker 2: that very many people who have big public memorials like
Speaker 2: this probably also have a private family one. And I
Speaker 2: kind of think that if you're going to accept a
Speaker 2: state funeral and taxpayers dollars and have it on the television,
Speaker 2: then you've got to expect a little bit of analysis.
Speaker 1: I was actually a bit surprised. I have to admit
Speaker 1: that Albow, who's normally so good at reading the national mood,
Speaker 1: did immediately jump in and say there was going to
Speaker 1: be a state funeral for Richardson, because, look, John Laws,
Speaker 1: no arguing with the fact that that guy was beloved
Speaker 1: by so many people, and I'm sure all grahe Richardson's
Speaker 1: passing is mourned by a lot of people within the
Speaker 1: labor parties, certainly by his family, by people who loved
Speaker 1: him and cared for him. But is he beloved in
Speaker 1: the same way as John Laws. I think that's a
Speaker 1: much more debatable question, and in.
Speaker 3: Fact, in terms of labor politics, you'd argue it's a
Speaker 3: bad look. Like you almost it's on the nose to
Speaker 3: even associate yourself with someone who the history of corruption
Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. You just go, this
Speaker 3: isn't what labor politics represents.
Speaker 4: And so then that gets really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And I know I'm arguing against myself a little bit,
Speaker 1: because Richardson did a lot of things that were really
Speaker 1: ahead of their time and which helped Australia move forward
Speaker 1: as a nation. For instance, his work on environmental regulations
Speaker 1: in the eighties was really groundbreaking and helped us to
Speaker 1: protect our natural environment at a time when people weren't
Speaker 1: even really thinking about that. But I do feel uncomfortable
Speaker 1: about someone who's so clearly sought personal financial enrichment from
Speaker 1: the service that he gave to this country getting his
Speaker 1: funeral paid for or by the state. I do feel
Speaker 1: uncomfortable about it, and I'm surprised that Albanezi went out
Speaker 1: on that limb that way. In a moment, I want
Speaker 1: to know why millennials aren't having affairs speak for yourself, Familia. Look,
Speaker 1: I regret to inform you that millennials have killed the affair.
Speaker 1: And Holly, I know that as a cool genexa you're
Speaker 1: rolling your eyes our puritanical, boring way. But let me
Speaker 1: get into why I should be French. I should be French.
Speaker 1: Where is your cigarette right now? That was a joke.
Speaker 1: According to an article in the Atlantic by Olga Kazan,
Speaker 1: Americans over fifty five are much more likely to have
Speaker 1: an affair than Americans under fifty five. And before you
Speaker 1: come at me with why you citing American statistics, it's
Speaker 1: because Australians are not replying to a stranger who calls
Speaker 1: them on the phone asking them if they are having
Speaker 1: an affair.
Speaker 3: Americans are offering that.
Speaker 1: I think I could not find a similar survey of Australia. Sorry,
Speaker 1: are you my wife? Now? It might be that people
Speaker 1: over fifty five have simply been married for longer, yes,
Speaker 1: and getting a bit bored in the relationship. But there
Speaker 1: is some other evidence that millennials are kind of remaking
Speaker 1: marriage into their own image. And here are some of
Speaker 1: them and Jodally Millennials report to Kauz, aren't that they
Speaker 1: don't know people having affairs? And that's true in my life,
Speaker 1: I don't know people having affairs at all. No comment
Speaker 1: now again, because I am young in holy okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just going to throw to you.
Speaker 2: That isn't what I think. It's just I was just
Speaker 2: no comment on the whole Do I know anyone is
Speaker 2: having an affair like?
Speaker 1: I can't answer that, But do you think that this
Speaker 1: is just because millennials haven't been married for long enough,
Speaker 1: or is there something new here?
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting because in lots of ways,
Speaker 2: it's never been easier to cheat, right, like dating apps,
Speaker 2: technology has made it incredibly easy to cheat, it's also
Speaker 2: made it easy to get caught. So though that's kind
Speaker 2: of two sides of the same coin, but one of
Speaker 2: the reasons I think everybody's obsessed with this new Lili
Speaker 2: Allen album. I know I am, but people are saying
Speaker 2: it paints a very modern picture of marriage. She's just
Speaker 2: about to be forty in you know, there's a certain
Speaker 2: element of we're trying to be cool and we're trying
Speaker 2: to be open, and everybody understands that there's now infinite
Speaker 2: choice in our phones. But it's really hard when you're
Speaker 2: in love and trying to live a dream to also
Speaker 2: pretend that you're so fine with all that. So I
Speaker 2: think in some ways it's surprising if this is true,
Speaker 2: because the opportunity seems to be so much bigger. But
Speaker 2: then in another way, it's not surprising because millennials have
Speaker 2: been getting married later, so they've been living together first.
Speaker 2: I think women have a lot more power and choice
Speaker 2: in terms of who they decide to settle down with,
Speaker 2: and so maybe some of the red flags of cheating.
Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting for a second that only men cheat,
Speaker 2: That is certainly not true both sides, but particularly women
Speaker 2: have never probably had as much choice about who they're
Speaker 2: going to partner with, and so you could argue that
Speaker 2: there's a place here for well, these marriages maybe will
Speaker 2: better thought out than previous marriages perhaps, And I do think,
Speaker 2: having just said that about dating apps and things, anecdotally,
Speaker 2: I feel like millennials are quite puritanical. They're not quite
Speaker 2: as puritanical as jen Zi's, but very into traditions, very
Speaker 2: inter rings and marriages. And maybe that is a reaction to,
Speaker 2: you know, being a generation many of whom are children
Speaker 2: of divorce and marriages that didn't last and maybe saw
Speaker 2: the effects of infidelity. So I think there's like a
Speaker 2: big soupy pot here that probably in a positive way,
Speaker 2: ends up with taking marriage more seriously, thinking about it
Speaker 2: more before you're doing it, understanding the consequences, more of
Speaker 2: messing around, or you're just boring.
Speaker 1: It's true that millennials much more likely to have grown
Speaker 1: up as children of divorce than their children will be
Speaker 1: if these trans continue. The divorce rate peaked in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy nine, so millennials really were that first generation to
Speaker 1: experience having divorced parents on mass. So, Jesse, are we
Speaker 1: more puritanical or are we in fact just better than
Speaker 1: Gen X because we, yeah, we actually take things like
Speaker 1: commitments seriously.
Speaker 3: I know, I do wonder that, and then I wonder,
Speaker 3: this isn't a totally unfounded theory based on anecdotal evidence,
Speaker 3: which is that I wonder if some millennials their fear
Speaker 3: is the affair, right, they might have seen it in
Speaker 3: their family or their friends' parents, the lies, the way
Speaker 3: it was corrosive.
Speaker 4: To the family unit, that kind of thing, right.
Speaker 3: My theory is that millennials don't necessarily sort of as
Speaker 3: a generation, don't necessarily expect that they will have sex
Speaker 3: with one person until the day they die. And I
Speaker 3: have seen, in fact, a lot of the millennials I
Speaker 3: know who have chosen not to get married are just
Speaker 3: sort of like, we're together, we love each other.
Speaker 4: It's great.
Speaker 3: If there was boredom in our sex lives, or if
Speaker 3: they're pretty open to going, whether it's an open relationship,
Speaker 3: whether it's non monogamy, whether it's a break whatever they
Speaker 3: call it. I wonder if the extra marital affair, that
Speaker 3: terminology of something that's like a full on relationship outside
Speaker 3: your marriage, is being reinvented as something that can Maybe
Speaker 3: sex isn't the be all and end all, and you
Speaker 3: can explore it outside your relationship, Like I wonder if
Speaker 3: that's part of it.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's part of it. I think like
Speaker 2: I would like to think that was part of it,
Speaker 2: because I genuinely think that the longer you're in a relationship,
Speaker 2: and the more foundations you have around that relationship, whether
Speaker 2: they're children, whether that is shared history, whether it's blended families,
Speaker 2: whether it's financial merging, you realize that the sexual fidelity
Speaker 2: part of it is not really it, Like it's small. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so I'd like to think that millennials are understanding that,
Speaker 2: But that feels more like a gen Z thing the whole,
Speaker 2: like thropple open pot.
Speaker 3: I know I have seen images like like even you know,
Speaker 3: pictures from a wedding on Instagram and I've gone that
Speaker 3: so interesting that I know and everyone, all the friends
Speaker 3: of the people at that wedding know that they sleep
Speaker 3: with other people and that they're both comfortable with that, and.
Speaker 2: It's just interesting. Still a massive outlier, Like whenever we
Speaker 2: were on the stories Mama Mia about open marriages and
Speaker 2: open relationships, there's still an enormous sort of curiosity because
Speaker 2: it's still seen as quite odd.
Speaker 4: I think it's talk about odd.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm saying that it's seen as quite odd, and even.
Speaker 4: In this is Why We Fight.
Speaker 3: I've been listening to that Mum Mayer podcast and it's
Speaker 3: come up a few times of I would say millennial
Speaker 3: sort of elder millennials talking about going through a rough
Speaker 3: patch of their marriage and opening it up and going,
Speaker 3: all right, you sleep with this person, I'll sleep with
Speaker 3: this person, especially with like little kids or whatever.
Speaker 2: I wonder a question that that is less hurtful.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I am hearing about that. I anctotally Jesse,
Speaker 1: particularly in a US context. So it's interesting that you're
Speaker 1: also about it here. But I think you're onto something
Speaker 1: with this idea that for millennial's marriage means something a
Speaker 1: little bit different to what it used to mean. And Holly,
Speaker 1: I want you to reserve judgment on this. I have
Speaker 1: a theory that I want to bring to you, which
Speaker 1: is that there's this new idea of the aloof wife,
Speaker 1: and that means that women are not thinking of marriage
Speaker 1: as their whole identity anymore. As I know you do, Holly.
Speaker 1: I know that's very important to you. Oh wait. The
Speaker 1: New New York mayor Zoran Mandani's wife is a twenty
Speaker 1: eight year old animator. Her name is Ramaduagi. She was
Speaker 1: called aloof by The New York Post in the lead
Speaker 1: up to his successful mayoral campaign because she basically didn't
Speaker 1: post about him on social media. Two days before he
Speaker 1: was elected, she posted on Instagram, I want to get
Speaker 1: this exactly right. Things I saw in October that made
Speaker 1: me want to make art, which I just love that
Speaker 1: like nothing about her husband making global headline.
Speaker 2: She's not just standing next to him in a sheef
Speaker 2: dress like smiling and waving.
Speaker 1: No sheef dresses, no kissing baby, no cheesy photo ops.
Speaker 1: He's doing his thing professionally. She's doing her thing professionally.
Speaker 1: There was some reporting that she'd been really instrumental in
Speaker 1: creating the look and feel of his social campaign, which
Speaker 1: was a huge part of why people thought he was successful.
Speaker 1: So clearly she had some input professionally speaking, but her
Speaker 1: identity was not tied up in the idea of the marriage.
Speaker 1: And this seems to speak to your idea that millennials
Speaker 1: are finding a new way of approaching marriage that works
Speaker 1: for them, whether that means an open marriage or being
Speaker 1: an aloof wife.
Speaker 3: Yeah, even the like first lady model of politics, I
Speaker 3: feel like the millennials are going to have none of that.
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm not here for your photo op. I'm here,
Speaker 3: Hasslin on my own accord.
Speaker 1: I hope.
Speaker 2: So you have a very different view of millennials of me,
Speaker 2: and that I after gen X's sort of messy cynicism,
Speaker 2: I see millennials as being pretty uptight generally speaking, and
Speaker 2: very inter traditions and quite conservative, and that gen Z
Speaker 2: had then been the pushback on that. But the other
Speaker 2: theory that's out there is just that all the stats
Speaker 2: say that people are having less sex full.
Speaker 1: Stop, the sex recession.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so particularly younger people are having less sex full stop,
Speaker 2: and so that follows on that there's less extra marital
Speaker 2: sex because and this is also a little bit depressing
Speaker 2: they're probably just watching a lot of Porner. Oh maybe
Speaker 2: they've got AI boss like we talked about on Monday.
Speaker 2: Does that classify if you've designed your perfect serena girlfriend?
Speaker 2: Is that cheating?
Speaker 1: Something you said before has really stuck with me, Holly
Speaker 1: about this idea that it's never been easier to cheat,
Speaker 1: But it's also, in a way, never been harder to
Speaker 1: cheat because we are so used to higher levels of surveillance,
Speaker 1: both from our partner and from the tech companies. It's
Speaker 1: the tracking, it's the tracking cracking. I think millennials are.
Speaker 2: Just too scared to cheat, They're too savvy to cheat.
Speaker 4: Because you've got your what's the app that Maya's got
Speaker 4: to fall on?
Speaker 2: Glabe sixty, You're like.
Speaker 4: Where are you?
Speaker 2: I can see where you are. It's true, it's like
Speaker 2: easier and harder at the same time. It's technology. Technology
Speaker 2: has done something good.
Speaker 3: Perhaps I came across this great post, which I think
Speaker 3: is actually about jen Z, But I came across this
Speaker 3: great post this week that said I have a theory
Speaker 3: that if you ask basically anybody alive today how their
Speaker 3: parents met, the story would violate at least one arbitrary
Speaker 3: zoomer dating rule and that's why nobody's having kids now.
Speaker 3: And it says age gap asked out at work, asked
Speaker 3: out multiple times, co workers, boss slash employee, and basically
Speaker 3: you need to break really serious social rules in order
Speaker 3: to find love. And I loved this because I was
Speaker 3: at a funeral recently and it's like he decided he
Speaker 3: loved Patty, but Patty said he was too short and
Speaker 3: too poor. But he decided to corner Patty and force
Speaker 3: Patty into marriage, and they had eleven children and it
Speaker 3: was a love story for the ages.
Speaker 4: And it's like and everyone cried.
Speaker 3: It is like, hold, they're together again, and Patty's probably
Speaker 3: been dead for ten years, going, Thank the fuck, I
Speaker 3: get some time on my earn from this creepy guy
Speaker 3: who stalks me my whole life.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: It's so good.
Speaker 3: After the break the essay about cosmetic surgery, I have
Speaker 3: not stopped thinking about. From Emma Stone to Miley Cyrus,
Speaker 3: why the Hugo girl approach is actually a massive.
Speaker 2: Problem One Unlimited out Loud access. We drop episodes every
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 2: link at the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 2: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current.
Speaker 4: Subscribers Black Fridays around the corner.
Speaker 3: It's only next week now, But what if I told
Speaker 3: you that you don't need that fancy goo Holly, no fancy.
Speaker 2: Sorry, we're talking about all the skincare products are waving
Speaker 2: for Black Friday to kick in.
Speaker 4: I think is gonna she's gonna fill.
Speaker 1: Up on its comment here, exactly right.
Speaker 4: That also, I don't want cash to comment.
Speaker 1: I want comment.
Speaker 2: You could telling me we don't need that expensive stuff.
Speaker 3: We don't need we don't need a face mask or
Speaker 3: because the most effective beauty trend is entirely free.
Speaker 4: Ladies have we.
Speaker 1: Say good night's sleep, I'm going to I'm not.
Speaker 3: Gonna dare say water. I'm not gonna say water. Menstrel mask,
Speaker 3: Oh hear me out? Putting menstrual blood on your face
Speaker 3: as a form of skin care has exploded.
Speaker 1: Explode exploded, It's exploded.
Speaker 4: It's clotted all over the.
Speaker 1: Damn it, Jesse, there goes your.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it contains stem cells something called Sieto themselves
Speaker 3: are good.
Speaker 1: I see them on expense a lot of money.
Speaker 3: I didn't see peptides but I did see proteins, and
Speaker 3: Holly loves proteins.
Speaker 2: Cottage is like.
Speaker 4: Cottage sheets, and it rejuvenates the skin. Apparently. Apparently it's
Speaker 4: also healing and empowering, But so is thatcher.
Speaker 3: So scientists say it can help with wound healing, but
Speaker 3: otherwise they will step back from saying conclusively it makes
Speaker 3: you hot. That's scientist is like, we're not going to
Speaker 3: say that Holly is menstrual masking the answer to everything.
Speaker 3: But capitalism is getting defensive because it wants.
Speaker 2: To buy just more proof of elitist ages around here.
Speaker 2: Blood is very hard to combine. Try and steal it
Speaker 2: from my young I guess.
Speaker 4: Now, who needs the millennials?
Speaker 2: Am I into this idea? No, I'm sure it is
Speaker 2: probably true.
Speaker 1: Yes, you think it reminds me of you know, Jermaine
Speaker 1: Greer in The Female Unit. She says that should be
Speaker 1: fully empowered as a woman, you need to taste your
Speaker 1: own menstrual blood. Now, this was before sheep masks were invented.
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would have said make a face mask
Speaker 1: of your menstrual blood if that was something in the
Speaker 1: culture at the time.
Speaker 4: I like the idea of trying it.
Speaker 3: I like the idea that we've always had all the
Speaker 3: goo we need, but we've just never used it.
Speaker 2: Look inside yourself.
Speaker 3: You'll and you'll find it. It's just lots ago different
Speaker 3: times of the month that we can try. Look, don't
Speaker 3: try this at home, or do you guys, it's absolutely fine.
Speaker 3: I think your daughter Matilda would be horrified if you
Speaker 3: showed up with your menstrual masking on.
Speaker 2: But you know what you do, you friends. I'm bringing
Speaker 2: two face topics to the table. Actually, we've just talked
Speaker 2: about faces three, so I'm already breaking some taboos that
Speaker 2: we're going to be exploring in a minute. One of
Speaker 2: them is about the fact that nobody appears to have
Speaker 2: eyelids anymore. Eyelids are over. I'm talking, of course, about
Speaker 2: the bleth or the blepheroplasty.
Speaker 3: Okay, can you explain what this is because it's something
Speaker 3: that women around me of a certain age are talking about.
Speaker 3: But I didn't know what a bleff was.
Speaker 2: So a blef is the short social media friendly term
Speaker 2: for a blethheroplasty, which is basically.
Speaker 1: An eyelid lift.
Speaker 2: And you know it's surgery. It's surgery that requires suitures
Speaker 2: and recovery time. And all the rest of it. And
Speaker 2: it's something that older women have sometimes been medically prescribed
Speaker 2: this because drooping eyelids can become a real problem. But
Speaker 2: it's really entered the mainstream just in the past even
Speaker 2: i'd say like six to twelve months as this thing
Speaker 2: the blef, I'm getting a bleath, I'm getting a bleth.
Speaker 2: It's more a cosmetic choice and a medical And also
Speaker 2: the age of those women seems to be dropping and
Speaker 2: dropping and dropping. We're seeing all over social media before
Speaker 2: us and afters of my bleth and my bleff recover
Speaker 2: left left left like it's it feels like suddenly it's everywhere,
Speaker 2: And it's also being very widely diagnosed as the reason
Speaker 2: why a lot of young ish celebrity women in their
Speaker 2: thirties who are being their faces are being talked about
Speaker 2: about why they suddenly look fresher, more snatched, younger, all
Speaker 2: that stuff, right, So this has led to a lot
Speaker 2: of articles about like I thought it was the menstrual blood,
Speaker 2: but probably now we know that. This has led to
Speaker 2: lots of articles about, like, your eyelids are making you
Speaker 2: look cold, eyelids are done, Like I'm.
Speaker 1: Like I feel bad about to help like not get
Speaker 1: particles into your eyes?
Speaker 2: Is that not sore thing have a purpose? But there's
Speaker 2: no question that. I mean, and some people have heavy
Speaker 2: eyelids and hooded eyelids always, and obviously people from different
Speaker 2: cultures and different backgrounds have different kind of eyelids, but
Speaker 2: there is no question that broadly speaking, as you age,
Speaker 2: they droop, and that lifting them a bit is generally
Speaker 2: considered to make a lot younger. So suddenly it's left, left, left.
Speaker 2: My question is for you, Jesse, because if you have
Speaker 2: been talking NonStop about an essay that you read about
Speaker 2: surgery and cosmetic procedures this week that encompasses this, why
Speaker 2: suddenly we would all be pointing at one particular part
Speaker 2: of a woman's face and saying that's the problem.
Speaker 1: Fix that?
Speaker 2: And why suddenly if you type bleff into TikTok, there
Speaker 2: are hundreds of thousands of things that suddenly have appeared
Speaker 2: from nowhere. Tell me about that essay.
Speaker 3: So there's this essay doing the rounds on substack, and
Speaker 3: I think it's something like a half hour read right,
Speaker 3: The title is the anti Cosmetic Surgery Essay Every Woman
Speaker 3: should Read.
Speaker 4: Have you both read it?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes? Okay, so only because you told me, only
Speaker 1: because you kept posting it and saying.
Speaker 2: Read it did make me realize that all my newsletters
Speaker 2: from now on should just be like the gardening tip
Speaker 2: Henry woman should, every woman should read.
Speaker 4: The rhyme should.
Speaker 3: And I just loved as I kept going out, I
Speaker 3: didn't hit a pay wall. I think I was just
Speaker 3: really satisfied.
Speaker 1: Can we just say that the reason why I caught
Speaker 1: my eye initially is because it's accompanied by two pictures
Speaker 1: of Miley Cyrus that are very confronting. It looks like
Speaker 1: she has very gaunt cheeks, and I guess this is
Speaker 1: connected with this buckle fat removal procedure that she's rumened
Speaker 1: to have had.
Speaker 4: She's looking almost unrecognizable.
Speaker 3: She's one of the ones that is like almost like
Speaker 3: the face is an extension of style and you can
Speaker 3: get a bunch of surgery that might make you reinvent
Speaker 3: entirely how.
Speaker 2: You look in fashion for the moment too.
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: And Emma Stone's face has been getting a lot of
Speaker 3: analysis lately. Jennifer Lawrence has come out and talked about
Speaker 3: some of the work that she's had done and Miley.
Speaker 4: Cyrus and basically this writer she writes.
Speaker 3: Under a pseudonym, which I think she's said too yeah,
Speaker 3: which I thought was really telling. I don't think she
Speaker 3: could write this under her name. Her pseudonym is father Karen.
Speaker 3: She said that as women and within kind of traditional
Speaker 3: feminist discourse, we now all have to hold hands and go, oh,
Speaker 3: I yes, I feel sad that everyone has the same face. Now, oh,
Speaker 3: well you do you you go, girl.
Speaker 1: I'm miss Emma Stone's face. Yes, sad face emoji.
Speaker 3: And you're allowed to kind of have that, but you
Speaker 3: are not allowed to judge a woman's choices.
Speaker 4: And I actually subscribe to that entirely.
Speaker 3: I feel like we're all in this burning building, and
Speaker 3: to judge a woman who goes down the cosmetic surgery
Speaker 3: route is to judge her for jumping out of the
Speaker 3: burning building, like I understand why you did it. But
Speaker 3: what we're not allowed to do is then criticize or
Speaker 3: analyze the trends, and in so doing, we're all kind
Speaker 3: of holding up this beauty industrial complex that makes us
Speaker 3: all sad.
Speaker 2: And that's how point I saw that our eyelids need.
Speaker 3: Fixing, exactly. And this is not making women happier. It's
Speaker 3: not making women feel more beautiful studies and evidence that
Speaker 3: this self objectifying that we're all doing, especially as the
Speaker 3: world gets more and more scary and bleak, we're all
Speaker 3: just going back into our bodies and going what can
Speaker 3: I control?
Speaker 4: What can I do?
Speaker 3: And that what might start with a little bit of
Speaker 3: anti wrinkle injections, it might become.
Speaker 4: The bleff or the lips or the buckle fat removal
Speaker 4: or whatever.
Speaker 2: Do you blame facelift?
Speaker 3: Yeap is just like this refocusing on ourselves that makes
Speaker 3: us feel uglier and uglier and need more and more
Speaker 3: and more work because a happy consumer is a bad consumer.
Speaker 3: You're not going to go and just pay for things
Speaker 3: that they need you to do. And the amount of
Speaker 3: work now involved in the maintenance of the female form
Speaker 3: is out of control. And can we all agree that
Speaker 3: it's like from the micro needling to the facials, to
Speaker 3: the heir, to the laser to the masks that we
Speaker 3: wear it like it, it is totally out of control.
Speaker 3: So I guess my question is do we feel like
Speaker 3: we can have an honest conversation? And me has been
Speaker 3: saying this for ages. May has been saying, you know,
Speaker 3: it's the mprison new clothes. None of us are allowed
Speaker 3: to say, what the hell is happening to everyone's faces
Speaker 3: because we don't want to judge them? But do you
Speaker 3: guys feel the same that it's come to a point
Speaker 3: where it's like, we can't criticize the culture that is,
Speaker 3: let's be real, it's ninety five percent women or something
Speaker 3: like that that are going and getting these procedures. Are
Speaker 3: we all comfortable with that? She calls it self mutilation.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'd go that far, but are
Speaker 3: we comfortable with that?
Speaker 2: I don't buy the idea that we're not talking about
Speaker 2: women's faces. It's all the culture does all day, every day.
Speaker 2: Like I agree with this woman's points on almost all
Speaker 2: of it, but the starting point of we're not allowed
Speaker 2: to talk about women's faces is just nonsense. Like Jennifer
Speaker 2: Lawrence is a great example of this by all accounts.
Speaker 2: That movie that she's in at the moment, that is
Speaker 2: the reason that she's everywhere with Robert Pattinson. She turns
Speaker 2: in the most astonishing performance in a really interesting role
Speaker 2: about motherhood and mental health and all this craziness, and
Speaker 2: she's wild in it. And the only headlines I have
Speaker 2: seen about Jennifer Lawrence the last month have been about
Speaker 2: her face, her boobs, that's it.
Speaker 3: But don't you think they're all you go girl, they're
Speaker 3: all like cheering.
Speaker 2: I don't I think we all agree. Well, I don't
Speaker 2: know that we all agree, but I'm certainly in agreement.
Speaker 2: And I always have been with me A's point about
Speaker 2: like what is happening here? And it's sick to a point,
Speaker 2: not sick this is a strong word, but there's no
Speaker 2: question we're all being led down a pass that is
Speaker 2: a no win game, right, And I personally try and
Speaker 2: resist it as much as I can within the realms
Speaker 2: of serum buying. But I think that always wanting to
Speaker 2: bring it back and hang it on We're not allowed
Speaker 2: to talk about Emma Stone's face is disingenuous. All we
Speaker 2: do is talk about Emma Stone's face. All we want
Speaker 2: to do is prosecute this enormous issue through the prism
Speaker 2: of one or two or three women that we want
Speaker 2: to pick apart call monstrous. Basically, go look at her.
Speaker 2: She must be insecure, look at her, she must be vain,
Speaker 2: look at her like I think that's all all we do.
Speaker 2: So I just don't really buy the idea that we're
Speaker 2: not because I think that if we really felt we
Speaker 2: couldn't talk about women's faces, we'd be talking about Jennifer
Speaker 2: Lawrence's movie.
Speaker 4: What do You Reckon? Amelia?
Speaker 1: Look, I think it's clear that we can talk about
Speaker 1: their faces. I agree with you, Holly, and we do
Speaker 1: on this show as well. Let's not be disingenuous about it.
Speaker 1: But why I found this piece really refreshing is because
Speaker 1: it made me feel like I'm not a freak for
Speaker 1: not buying into this. And I know that sounds funny
Speaker 1: because it's becoming like unusual in my impression to not
Speaker 1: opt into this game. So I appreciated that she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: the writer said, this is not normal. You don't have
Speaker 1: to do this. And in fact, it's an arms race
Speaker 1: that women will never win because the only beauty standard
Speaker 1: that remains the same from generation to generation is youth,
Speaker 1: actual youth, not simulated youth, and beauty standards other than
Speaker 1: youth change all the time. For instance, we started this
Speaker 1: by talking about droopy eyelids. Phrase droopy island seems insane,
Speaker 1: but it is out there. I want to point out
Speaker 1: that Sydney Sweeney, Marilyn Monroe, Charlotte Rampling, all these women
Speaker 1: have famously quote unquote droopy islands bed droomise. In another
Speaker 1: era this was beddroomies, but now they're droopy. So the
Speaker 1: point is you can't win, and I found that really refreshing.
Speaker 2: Here's something though, that I want to ask you as
Speaker 2: you go to the next point, Jesse, is that the
Speaker 2: thing is and this is the point of the woman's article. Really,
Speaker 2: So Australia has one of the biggest updates of cosmetic
Speaker 2: procedures per capita in the world, big in the US,
Speaker 2: so the most recent stats, and they do come from
Speaker 2: a medical and cosmetic surgical institute, but the most recent
Speaker 2: stats suggest that twenty two percent of Australians have had
Speaker 2: a cosmetic procedure, and that twenty five percent of millennials have,
Speaker 2: and that something like thirty eight percent would like to
Speaker 2: or planning to in the next ten years. She's just
Speaker 2: so internalized agism for all the reasons you just said, Amelia,
Speaker 2: that she looks in the mirror, goes, I don't really
Speaker 2: recognize that person. I know how we all feel and
Speaker 2: mock women who are looking older. So She's right, we
Speaker 2: are all being led down this road is the cure
Speaker 2: for it, though, to point out and mock the women
Speaker 2: I were doing that, And that's where I think we
Speaker 2: are always led back to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what I hate. And I also hate
Speaker 3: when we get to and they look ugly anyway, or
Speaker 3: they look ugly in a new way, which.
Speaker 1: Is what's implied by the author's choice of these really
Speaker 1: startling images of Miley Cyrus to go with the piece.
Speaker 1: The photos are not what you would call conventionally attractive.
Speaker 1: They stop you in your tracks, they stop you scrolling.
Speaker 1: She looks really undernourished in them in a way that
Speaker 1: is alarming. So the author knew what she was doing
Speaker 1: by drawing us in with those photos.
Speaker 3: Yes, And she says it explicitly about some people in
Speaker 3: the public eye, and it's like, you did all of
Speaker 3: this and you still don't look good, which is almost
Speaker 3: the inevitable treadmill of like you'll get a little bit
Speaker 3: and then you'll get so taken down this and then
Speaker 3: guess what, the filler's going to be out of date
Speaker 3: and there's going to be a new trend in and
Speaker 3: you're not going to be beautiful by those standards. But Holly,
Speaker 3: you said something about like women doing those procedures to
Speaker 3: kind of keep their status. And one thing I found.
Speaker 3: I talked about this at the live show, and I
Speaker 3: haven't been comfortable talking about it on this show for a.
Speaker 4: Myriad of reasons.
Speaker 3: But I after I had Luna and I was feeling
Speaker 3: you know, haggard and doing TV and doing this and
Speaker 3: video and blah blah blah, I had anti wrinkle injections.
Speaker 3: And before I go into it is like to speak
Speaker 3: to your doctor, I'm not recommending this procedure. This was
Speaker 3: just my experience and that, like it sounds like a
Speaker 3: big thing to say, to say betrayed my values. But
Speaker 3: I kind of always went I'm not going to do it, and.
Speaker 4: Then one day I just went, screw it. I want
Speaker 4: to have more kids.
Speaker 3: There's a moment in my life where I can get
Speaker 3: anti wrinkle injections.
Speaker 4: And I went and did it.
Speaker 3: I didn't do it for status. What I did it
Speaker 3: for was to turn the voice off, was to.
Speaker 4: Turn the inner monologue.
Speaker 3: That every day it's going look at the lines on
Speaker 3: your feat, look at the lines on your froat. And
Speaker 3: I thought, if I could quieten that, maybe my brain
Speaker 3: could think about other, bigger, more important things and it
Speaker 3: would be freeing.
Speaker 4: And I thought that getting that would turn it off.
Speaker 4: It didn't.
Speaker 3: In fact, it made me more obsessed with my appearance.
Speaker 3: I've never looked in the mirror so much. I didn't
Speaker 3: think it looked right. I thought it looked all uneven.
Speaker 3: I felt claustrophobic in my own face. I didn't feel
Speaker 3: like myself. I couldn't emote all of these things, and
Speaker 3: I went, I hate it. I'm not doing it again.
Speaker 3: Maybe it does turn off the monologue, but it's like
Speaker 3: the issue is that in a monologue.
Speaker 1: And of course individual women's experiences with these procedures may vary.
Speaker 1: But one thing that I really wanted to highlight from
Speaker 1: the essay is that it points to empirical evidence that
Speaker 1: shows that cosmetic work does not improve your long term happiness,
Speaker 1: and it actually increases Obviously, again, this is population wide
Speaker 1: increases symptoms of depression and anxiety. So we really are
Speaker 1: in a treadmill.
Speaker 3: And even things like sexual dysfunction or eating disorders, because
Speaker 3: it's like you're not in touch with how you feel
Speaker 3: or what you want. It's it's this kind of perpetuating
Speaker 3: the self objectifying narrative.
Speaker 2: I get all that so much, and I am al
Speaker 2: so you know, because of our jobs, we're looking at
Speaker 2: our face is probably more than the average person because
Speaker 2: we're on camera as the gen xer at the table.
Speaker 2: I do struggle all the time in that I'm like,
Speaker 2: look at my neckline, look at my look. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: the noise I so relate to it, Jesse. But the
Speaker 2: problem that I have is still because I also genuinely
Speaker 2: do not judge women who are doing whatever they're doing,
Speaker 2: because I just think we are all in this game
Speaker 2: that we're talking.
Speaker 4: About, and we're all playing it to a different degree.
Speaker 2: And I think that the problem with as I said,
Speaker 2: the problem with this essay and this kind of narrative
Speaker 2: is it wants us to go back to picking women's faces,
Speaker 2: our own and others, without shame, without fear or favor
Speaker 2: like which I think. I don't think that's the answer.
Speaker 2: I actually think the answer is less attention less talk
Speaker 2: about it. Less. The fact that any woman steps into
Speaker 2: the public arena, whether it's on a TV show or
Speaker 2: in politics or whatever, that the first thing we all
Speaker 2: talk about is her face and what she's done to it.
Speaker 2: I think that would actually be real progress.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm with you. I think we talk
Speaker 4: about it too much.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to you out louders for listening
Speaker 2: to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting
Speaker 2: it together. Remember you can always watch us on YouTube.
Speaker 2: But we're going to be back in your ears tomorrow, Jesse.
Speaker 1: Before we go, Yeah, you know how out Loud sets
Speaker 1: you up for the week. Well that's what our listeners
Speaker 1: tell us. Yeah, well now they have something to get
Speaker 1: them through the weekend too, and it's parenting.
Speaker 4: I love my parenting out Loud.
Speaker 3: You Stacey Hicks, Monic Bully, But I hear that there's
Speaker 3: a special guest.
Speaker 1: Special guest this week one Luca Levine, dad of one,
Speaker 1: father to be of twins. Was he very nervous.
Speaker 3: He was, and he asked me how to pitch. He
Speaker 3: had no idea, like where to start. But I love
Speaker 3: this idea. I'm encouraging him to.
Speaker 4: Become a parent. I would love that because I feel
Speaker 4: like it's something I could outsource. And I'm like, maybe
Speaker 4: you could like be like.
Speaker 2: The primary parent.
Speaker 4: Let's just go with it.
Speaker 3: But look, he's a great dad and he has lots
Speaker 3: of wisdom and lots of insights.
Speaker 1: I also just love it's very parenting out Loud to
Speaker 1: say you know what. We need to get a guy's
Speaker 1: perspective on things too, exactly. It's not meant to be
Speaker 1: like your everyday regular parenting show.
Speaker 3: It's meant to be a little bit more out of
Speaker 3: the box. And quotas are important. We believe in quotas,
Speaker 3: so we did need to.
Speaker 1: So look, I'll just tell you quickly what's on the
Speaker 1: show because it sounds like a great lineup. You taught
Speaker 1: him well on pitching.
Speaker 3: I don't know what that you guys talk about yet though,
Speaker 3: but what is it?
Speaker 1: Well, apparently Kinetic sand has been canceled. Oh yes, yes,
Speaker 1: there's a trend that's fighting against Black Friday sales and
Speaker 1: apparently it's very delightful, which is good because I'm so
Speaker 1: not into Black Friday sales now I need an antidote.
Speaker 1: And also, are you doing nappy changes mindfully? Is this
Speaker 1: something that Luca makes you do like mindful nappy changes? Anyway,
Speaker 1: he's going to tell us all about it on the shows.
Speaker 4: Okay, I love it here.
Speaker 1: So if you love out Loud, this is your weekend
Speaker 1: fixed search parenting out Loud and hit follow.
Speaker 4: Is it ten years today?
Speaker 2: Shut up.
Speaker 1: Is to you, hippy, that's astir of my line.
Speaker 4: Ten years, A lot's happened, A lot's.
Speaker 2: Happened, A lot happen happened, Jesse ste.
Speaker 4: Oh, my goodness, who would.
Speaker 2: Have thought as a listener to out Loud who you
Speaker 2: also were a listener to out Loud?
Speaker 1: Walk and you were the boss ab out Loud walking
Speaker 1: in the door that day with no shoes.
Speaker 4: No, exactly right. I had shoes on, but I wasn't
Speaker 4: dressed appropriately. You were.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I had a meeting with you and and her
Speaker 3: and she was good cop, Hollywood, good cop. You were
Speaker 3: just chaos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No one knew and so much changed. And I
Speaker 2: just knew that one day you'd be pushing some of
Speaker 2: my DNA.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I knew that efficiently.
Speaker 1: No, who would have known you?
Speaker 4: Just that's the most ever that I would have no idea?
Speaker 2: What it's two?
Speaker 1: And everyone's kept saying to me, what shoud we get
Speaker 1: Jesse for a present? What should we get it for
Speaker 1: a ten year president? I'm I don't know. She doesn't
Speaker 1: like stuff.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 3: Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
Speaker 3: on which we have recorded this podcast