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Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to momam are out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the nineteenth of

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Speaker 2: I was going to say October nov my.

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Speaker 1: Name is Hollywayen Right, I'm Amelia Luster and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. I've been in New Zealand for a

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Speaker 3: few days.

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Speaker 4: Claire is back.

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Speaker 3: She's going to be back for Friday's episode because I

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Speaker 3: have a very very big week just on New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: Have either of you seen Lord of the Rings?

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Speaker 1: I watched it every single year around New Year's Eve.

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Speaker 4: Really like all of them, love it. Have you seen

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Speaker 4: the Hobbit Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Not as good.

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Speaker 4: The out loud as are horrified that I've never seen

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Speaker 4: Lord of the Rings? Very really mad.

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Speaker 2: How have you managed to live your life and avoid that?

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Speaker 3: I've had people try and force me, sit me down,

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Speaker 3: and I just I can't watch more than about.

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Speaker 4: Six minutes of it.

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Speaker 2: So did you go to Hobbiton?

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Speaker 4: I went to Hobbiton, which I love.

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Speaker 2: Did you understand Hobbiton? If you haven't in any.

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Speaker 4: Of these totally did?

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Speaker 2: What's this strange little place?

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Speaker 4: Why is it all so little?

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Speaker 3: I actually really really rated it. I thought it was

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Speaker 3: awesome and was there with the two year old who

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Speaker 3: just went it's the city made for me. Yeah, you

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Speaker 3: get to go into one of the houses and play

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Speaker 3: with things and stuff, which was awesome.

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Speaker 1: But I would love to do that. And you haven't

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Speaker 1: even watched.

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Speaker 4: I know, I know it's sick.

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Speaker 3: It's incredible, and I just appreciated the movie set element.

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Speaker 3: That's like the biggest movie set in the world. But yet, nah,

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Speaker 3: I haven't read it.

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Speaker 4: Have you read it?

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Speaker 2: I read it when I was a kid. My dad

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Speaker 2: read it to me.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 2: Brent's obsessed. He's one of those well he's a key

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Speaker 2: way of course, he's completely obsessed. He's got all the

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Speaker 2: director's cuts. He tries to make the kids watch it

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Speaker 2: all the time. Billy has been reading it and he

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Speaker 2: kind of got yeah, it's the whole thing. You got

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Speaker 2: to get into order the rings.

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Speaker 4: Do I have to watch it?

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Speaker 2: Actually, yes, in it and he's like, really really hot. Actually,

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Speaker 2: Orlando is probably more your thing, young Orlando Blue is

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Speaker 2: the elf king hotness.

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Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I'll give it. Yeah, he lost me

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Speaker 4: at elf King, but I like the hotness.

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Speaker 2: Dear anyway, here's what's made our agenda today. Eyelids are

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Speaker 2: over and there's an essay that everybody has to read

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Speaker 2: about surgery. These are just a couple of the silly

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Speaker 2: things around about women's faces this week.

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Speaker 1: And millennials aren't having affairs anymore. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

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Speaker 4: And state funerals.

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Speaker 3: Two prominent Australians have been offered and accepted them in

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Speaker 3: the last few weeks, and we discuss what that means

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Speaker 3: and why a lot of people are very, very mad.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, in case you missed it, Michelle Obama, which

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Speaker 2: he's been saying a lot of good stuff lately. We

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Speaker 2: remember we talked about her last week with her parenting advice.

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Speaker 2: But I have one question from Melia lest after you

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Speaker 2: hear this little bit about Michelle Obama talking about women

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Speaker 2: running for president.

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Speaker 5: As we saw in this past election, sadly we ain't ready.

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Speaker 5: That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running,

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Speaker 5: because you all are lying you're not ready for a woman.

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Speaker 5: You are not, so don't waste my time. You know,

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Speaker 5: we had a lot of growing up to do, and

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Speaker 5: theyre's still I'm sadly, a lot of men who do

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Speaker 5: not feel like they can be led by a woman,

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Speaker 5: and we saw it.

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Speaker 2: Is that true, Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 1: It is a bit of a split screen, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Because I saw this everywhere this weekend, And then just

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Speaker 1: before we came into record, I saw that President Trump

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Speaker 1: was on Air Force one this morning and he called

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Speaker 1: a female reporter a piggy. He said, stop talking, piggy. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the one hand, I can see why

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Speaker 1: she says that Americans are not ready. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: I feel a little bit more optimistic than Michelle on this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what we had to remember is Americans gave

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton the popular vote, and seventy five million Americans

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Speaker 1: voted for Kamila Harris. There were a lot of things

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Speaker 1: going on in that election that were weird and unusual.

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Speaker 1: She had one hundred and six days to run. I

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Speaker 1: just wonder if things might have just gone a little

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Speaker 1: bit differently, we would be living in a completely different

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Speaker 1: timeline talking about how evolved Americans are for voting in

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Speaker 1: an American woman to be president. So I feel just

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Speaker 1: a little bit more optimistic than her and the people who.

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Speaker 4: Are saying to her, run run run, are.

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Speaker 3: Not the same people who wouldn't vote for her, Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't think they're lying. I think whether the US

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Speaker 3: is ready is a really valid question, and I totally

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Speaker 3: appreciate and respect her position of like, don't waste my time.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to do this to be racially villified,

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Speaker 3: to be the subject of sexism, all of the things

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Speaker 3: we know it would happen, Like all power to her.

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Speaker 3: I completely understand her position. But as you say, seventy

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Speaker 3: five million people vote for Kamala Harris, that means a

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Speaker 3: lot of Americans are ready. As we record this episode,

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Speaker 3: the doors of Saint Andrew's Cathedral are opening, just literally

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Speaker 3: a few steps from we are sitting right now, hundreds

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Speaker 3: and hundreds of Australians will gather for the state funeral

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Speaker 3: of John Laws. He passed away at the age of

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Speaker 3: ninety ten days ago, and he was a broadcaster, a

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Speaker 3: sort of.

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Speaker 4: The first shock jock.

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Speaker 3: I suppose for more than seven decades he was known

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Speaker 3: as the Golden Tonsils was his nickname, and Chris Mins,

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Speaker 3: the New South Wales Premier, says he left a lasting

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Speaker 3: mark on Australian media. For those reasons, they've decided that

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Speaker 3: he should you receive this honor. But Holly, there's more

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Speaker 3: to Laws's story. What is sort of the controversial aspects

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Speaker 3: of what he's known for.

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Speaker 2: So obviously he's a very famous man, and every prime

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Speaker 2: minister that we've ever had has had to go and

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Speaker 2: bend the knee, and indeed they'll be doing it again today.

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Speaker 2: But the people who argue that Laws's reputation was not

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Speaker 2: really unsolid enough to have warranted this would point to

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Speaker 2: things like in nineteen ninety nine, he was part of

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Speaker 2: a ski that was broadly called the cash for Comment scandal,

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Speaker 2: where it was clear that he was promoting brands and

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Speaker 2: things without disclosing them. In some ways that seems almost

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Speaker 2: quaint in these days, but at the time that was

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Speaker 2: a really big deal on talkback radio, and he knew

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Speaker 2: that that was going to follow him when he did

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Speaker 2: this interview with Lee Sales a few years ago, which

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Speaker 2: was iconic. He sat there with his bourbon do you remember,

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Speaker 2: and his sunglasses on, and one of the things he

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Speaker 2: said was, remember the alleged cash for comment garbage that

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Speaker 2: went on.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to die with that.

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Speaker 2: Even though all I was accused of was being excessively

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Speaker 2: loyal to my sponsors that he also in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and four, he and his colleague Steve Price were found

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Speaker 2: guilty of homosexual vilification. Again cashed your mind back to

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Speaker 2: a time when the bloc started and there was a

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Speaker 2: male gay couple on it which was like ooh radical

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Speaker 2: on TV, and both Laws and Price, in talking about it,

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Speaker 2: used all kinds of slurs that you would never use

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Speaker 2: now and should never have used them, and they both

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Speaker 2: got really hefty fines for it. Other things he did,

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Speaker 2: he made some really dismissive comments about mental health and

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Speaker 2: some inappropriate talkback segments about sexual abuse. And he also

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Speaker 2: was very well known for having very conservative workplace policies

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Speaker 2: when it came to women. He called his producers handmaidens,

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Speaker 2: and he insisted on skirts or dresses at.

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Speaker 1: Work at all times.

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Speaker 2: So these are some of the things that obviously follow

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Speaker 2: the laws legacy that are not quite so illustrious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's why some have expressed there's been kind

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Speaker 3: of a loud chorus of discomfort about him being afforded

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Speaker 3: a state funeral, which, to be clear, that means that

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Speaker 3: it is funded by the state government, often in partnership

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Speaker 3: with the federal government. In shot we're paying for it,

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Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars paying for it.

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Speaker 1: And how much are we talking?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so it's not clear and it varies from person

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Speaker 3: to person. But the big one that I remember a

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Speaker 3: lot of discussion about was Shane warn He was afforded

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Speaker 3: a state funeral. It was about one point six million

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Speaker 3: dollars day. I think it cost tax pays.

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Speaker 4: Now, another point.

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Speaker 3: Of this that makes people annoyed is that John Laws

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Speaker 3: made a lot of money. He was one of the

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Speaker 3: most well paid radio broadcasters of his time. Estimates say,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the millions every year. So could his

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Speaker 3: family have afforded it? Absolutely? And so I guess the

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Speaker 3: question is given his wealth. Given also the controversy do

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Speaker 3: we think he should be afforded this state funeral or

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Speaker 3: should it be private something that the family pays for

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Speaker 3: like the rest of us.

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Speaker 4: What do you reckon, Amelia?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in a bit of two minds about it,

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Speaker 1: because look, he obviously was really widely loved by millions

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Speaker 1: of Australians and that was one of the reasons given

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Speaker 1: by the state government for holding this funeral by a

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Speaker 1: particular demographic segment of Australians. But nonetheless, millions of Australians.

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Speaker 1: And also what I really appreciate about his legacy is

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Speaker 1: that no one ever knew what his actual politics were.

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Speaker 1: He kept them very much away from the microphone. He

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Speaker 1: supported some Labor prime ministers, he supported some Liberal prime ministers.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think that in any way he could

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Speaker 1: be accused of being a partisan figure. That said, for me,

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Speaker 1: the crux of this, and the reason I feel uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: with it is because of the money element, not because

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Speaker 1: his family could have afforded the state funeral. It's more

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Speaker 1: because why do we put on a state funeral? Arguably

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Speaker 1: it's to say thank you to someone who has served

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Speaker 1: our nation in some meaningful way. And you can certainly

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Speaker 1: make an argument that Laws has done that. But as

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Speaker 1: you point out Jesse, he was rewarded handsomely for that.

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Speaker 1: In he got millions of dollars in compensation every year

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Speaker 1: for what he did. He was very professionally successful. I

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Speaker 1: want to contrast that with someone like, for instance, Arthur Leggett,

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Speaker 1: who I wasn't aware of, but a state funeral was

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Speaker 1: held for him in Western Australia earlier this year. He

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Speaker 1: was Australia's last World War Two prisoner.

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Speaker 4: Of war.

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Speaker 1: He was held by the Japanese for four years. He

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Speaker 1: was captured when he was twenty two, and that seems

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Speaker 1: to me to be a service to the nation that

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Speaker 1: he was not particularly financially enriched for after that. Or

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Speaker 1: another example is Charles Perkins Charlie Perkins, again serving his nation,

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Speaker 1: but not really receiving financial rewards for that. So in

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Speaker 1: the case of both those men, it's really a way

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Speaker 1: of saying thank you in a way that they didn't

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Speaker 1: get money for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like what you say about service, And I

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Speaker 3: guess that the confusion or the complication here is that

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Speaker 3: the other state funeral that has been afforded and will

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Speaker 3: be happening in the coming days or weeks is Graham Richardson,

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Speaker 3: who is a former Labor senator and instrumental in labor politics.

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Speaker 3: But Kate McClymont, the Sinney Morning Herald's journalist, has come

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Speaker 3: out and said this is a story I could never

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Speaker 3: write like she had so much to say about Richardson.

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Speaker 1: The article was jaw dropping.

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Speaker 3: It was it was incredible, from corruption to stories of how.

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Speaker 1: Swiss bank accounts demanding sex worker services as a form

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Speaker 1: of payment from dodgy business to yours exactly.

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Speaker 3: Like a lot of people have said, whatever is good deeds,

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Speaker 3: he's bad deeds outweighed them, Holly. I mean, you could

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Speaker 3: say richardson life of service labor politician, like, is this

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Speaker 3: what we do now? If you get a state funeral,

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Speaker 3: does that mean that everyone gets to prosecute everything you

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Speaker 3: ever did and whether you're a good enough person to

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Speaker 3: be allowed to have our tax paid dollars.

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Speaker 2: I just think that's an inevitability of having even a

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Speaker 2: thing that is a state funeral, Like, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: a strange tradition. I agree with Amelia that I guess

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Speaker 2: my particular leanings would be to people who of great

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Speaker 2: acts of great service to the nation, who couldn't afford

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Speaker 2: a decent sendoff, and who need to be rewarded and

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Speaker 2: remembered in a fitting way. I think, great chip in

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Speaker 2: for their funeral.

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Speaker 4: But do you think about former pms.

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Speaker 2: I think, well, even that, I mean, that's an active

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Speaker 2: service to the nation. But again, you get paid for it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't. I think it's a strange. What

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Speaker 2: fascinates me the most about state funerals is that you

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Speaker 2: get offered them, right, so you get offered them by

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Speaker 2: the government, state government, federal government, and the family are

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Speaker 2: the ones who decide. And so that tells you I

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Speaker 2: think that the people who get them, they really wanted one,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like Lawsy, he would have

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Speaker 2: really wanted a state funeral. He wants everybody lined up

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Speaker 2: there today, all the former pms, all his like rivals

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Speaker 2: in radio or forced to wear a suit and be

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Speaker 2: there for the TV cameras. Whereas famously Steve Irwin, very

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Speaker 2: famous Australian of a very different kind, was offered one

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Speaker 2: and his family were like, nah, he wouldn't like that.

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Speaker 2: And Betty Cuffbert, she was an Olympic legend, female Olympic

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Speaker 2: legend from you know, the olden days as it were.

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Speaker 2: She died this year and she was offered one too,

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Speaker 2: and her family were like, nah, she would have hated that.

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Speaker 2: We want a quiet, private service that just remembers her

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Speaker 2: as she would have liked to be remembered. So I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of fascinated by the idea of if you were

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Speaker 2: offered one, if you'd take it.

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Speaker 3: There is some like pomp and ceremony, it will be

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Speaker 3: a real spectacle, the John Laws thing, and some people

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Speaker 3: do deserve that. Fred Hollows had a state funeral and

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Speaker 3: his contribution to Australia, you know, he was someone who

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Speaker 3: restored the eyesight of so many Australians and people overseas,

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Speaker 3: enormous legacy, Like yes, about down.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be televised too. So I was on

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Speaker 2: I was watching seven this morning and they were very

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Speaker 2: heavily promoting it. And it's interesting because it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: state funeral, I don't think, but one of the most

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Speaker 2: memorable televised Australian funerals I can remember, and it happened

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Speaker 2: in the same place was Michael Hutchins's funeral and that

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Speaker 2: was across the road here, and the optics of all

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Speaker 2: these glamorous women like Kylie Minogue, Helena Christian Coates and

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Speaker 2: in their like little veils and it was like Nick

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Speaker 2: Cave was playing into your arms. It was like a

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Speaker 2: royal event and it seemed very fitting. I don't know

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Speaker 2: who paid for that, but it seemed very fitting. And

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Speaker 2: I watched it on television and was very moved. And

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Speaker 2: it's kind of I don't know, it's really interesting in

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Speaker 2: that status in death and who turns up and all that.

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Speaker 2: We're very interested in it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I want to ask you, Jesse, because

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Speaker 1: you know Fred Hollows. We can all agree former prisoner

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Speaker 1: of war. Yes, but you raise a really interesting edge case,

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Speaker 1: which is prime ministers because on the one hand service,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, enrichment for that service in many ways,

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Speaker 1: either because they receive a generous salary while they're in office,

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Speaker 1: but also after they've been in office, there are all

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Speaker 1: sorts of business opportunities for former prime ministers. So what

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Speaker 1: do you think do you think prime ministers should get

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Speaker 1: a state funeral?

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Speaker 3: I understand why they do, and because their legacy is

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Speaker 3: so tied up with the lives of Australians and what

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Speaker 3: they did, and I guess that they do say it

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Speaker 3: as a role of service. I mean, there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who have roles of service that don't

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Speaker 3: receive that monetary reward.

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Speaker 4: But I guess it.

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Speaker 3: Comes down to who chooses who has a state funeral,

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Speaker 3: and if it's politicians, if it's often the Prime Minister

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Speaker 3: or the Premier.

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Speaker 4: They know these people personally.

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Speaker 3: Right, and like they see this as and even I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking of like Queen Elizabeth right, So many people wanted

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Speaker 3: to go and show their support to the family and

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Speaker 3: have this kind of collective moment of mourning for that loss,

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Speaker 3: which I kind of appreciate as well. But I remember

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Speaker 3: feeling really uncomfortable around the time of George Pell's death

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Speaker 3: because state funeral a few years before totally would have

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Speaker 3: been on the cards. But it was Daniel Andrews, I think,

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Speaker 3: who came out the Victorian premier and said that would

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Speaker 3: be so distressing to his victims. And it was a

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Speaker 3: private ceremony. There were still people who showed up and protested.

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Speaker 3: But whether or not you accept it is interesting because

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Speaker 3: there's not a person. You go through John Laws's life,

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Speaker 3: you even go through Fred Hollows's life, right, and there

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Speaker 3: are moments where you go probably didn't age too well

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Speaker 3: those comments that they made twenty thirty years ago. And

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Speaker 3: when it does become everyone's business, then everyone discussing whether

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Speaker 3: that person was a morally pure person is something I

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Speaker 3: don't think anyone wants to do in the days after

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Speaker 3: someone dies, like I'd feel for John Laws's family, I

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Speaker 3: feel for Graham Richardson's family. Death is a is something

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Speaker 3: that affects those closest to them, and I kind of

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Speaker 3: hate the way that we all go.

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Speaker 2: But if you're going to accept it. It's the opposite

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Speaker 2: of private morning, It's the opposite. Yeah. So I'm sure

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Speaker 2: that very many people who have big public memorials like

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Speaker 2: this probably also have a private family one. And I

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Speaker 2: kind of think that if you're going to accept a

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Speaker 2: state funeral and taxpayers dollars and have it on the television,

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Speaker 2: then you've got to expect a little bit of analysis.

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Speaker 1: I was actually a bit surprised. I have to admit

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Speaker 1: that Albow, who's normally so good at reading the national mood,

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Speaker 1: did immediately jump in and say there was going to

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Speaker 1: be a state funeral for Richardson, because, look, John Laws,

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Speaker 1: no arguing with the fact that that guy was beloved

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Speaker 1: by so many people, and I'm sure all grahe Richardson's

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Speaker 1: passing is mourned by a lot of people within the

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Speaker 1: labor parties, certainly by his family, by people who loved

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Speaker 1: him and cared for him. But is he beloved in

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Speaker 1: the same way as John Laws. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: much more debatable question, and in.

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Speaker 3: Fact, in terms of labor politics, you'd argue it's a

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Speaker 3: bad look. Like you almost it's on the nose to

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Speaker 3: even associate yourself with someone who the history of corruption

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. You just go, this

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Speaker 3: isn't what labor politics represents.

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Speaker 4: And so then that gets really uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: And I know I'm arguing against myself a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because Richardson did a lot of things that were really

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Speaker 1: ahead of their time and which helped Australia move forward

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Speaker 1: as a nation. For instance, his work on environmental regulations

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Speaker 1: in the eighties was really groundbreaking and helped us to

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Speaker 1: protect our natural environment at a time when people weren't

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Speaker 1: even really thinking about that. But I do feel uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: about someone who's so clearly sought personal financial enrichment from

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Speaker 1: the service that he gave to this country getting his

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Speaker 1: funeral paid for or by the state. I do feel

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable about it, and I'm surprised that Albanezi went out

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Speaker 1: on that limb that way. In a moment, I want

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Speaker 1: to know why millennials aren't having affairs speak for yourself, Familia. Look,

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Speaker 1: I regret to inform you that millennials have killed the affair.

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Speaker 1: And Holly, I know that as a cool genexa you're

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Speaker 1: rolling your eyes our puritanical, boring way. But let me

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Speaker 1: get into why I should be French. I should be French.

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Speaker 1: Where is your cigarette right now? That was a joke.

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Speaker 1: According to an article in the Atlantic by Olga Kazan,

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Speaker 1: Americans over fifty five are much more likely to have

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Speaker 1: an affair than Americans under fifty five. And before you

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Speaker 1: come at me with why you citing American statistics, it's

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Speaker 1: because Australians are not replying to a stranger who calls

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Speaker 1: them on the phone asking them if they are having

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Speaker 1: an affair.

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Speaker 3: Americans are offering that.

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Speaker 1: I think I could not find a similar survey of Australia. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: are you my wife? Now? It might be that people

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Speaker 1: over fifty five have simply been married for longer, yes,

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Speaker 1: and getting a bit bored in the relationship. But there

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Speaker 1: is some other evidence that millennials are kind of remaking

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Speaker 1: marriage into their own image. And here are some of

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Speaker 1: them and Jodally Millennials report to Kauz, aren't that they

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Speaker 1: don't know people having affairs? And that's true in my life,

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Speaker 1: I don't know people having affairs at all. No comment

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Speaker 1: now again, because I am young in holy okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to throw to you.

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Speaker 2: That isn't what I think. It's just I was just

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Speaker 2: no comment on the whole Do I know anyone is

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Speaker 2: having an affair like?

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Speaker 1: I can't answer that, But do you think that this

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Speaker 1: is just because millennials haven't been married for long enough,

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Speaker 1: or is there something new here?

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Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting because in lots of ways,

402
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Speaker 2: it's never been easier to cheat, right, like dating apps,

403
00:20:02,714 --> 00:20:06,434
Speaker 2: technology has made it incredibly easy to cheat, it's also

404
00:20:06,474 --> 00:20:09,274
Speaker 2: made it easy to get caught. So though that's kind

405
00:20:09,314 --> 00:20:12,074
Speaker 2: of two sides of the same coin, but one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons I think everybody's obsessed with this new Lili

407
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Speaker 2: Allen album. I know I am, but people are saying

408
00:20:16,994 --> 00:20:19,754
Speaker 2: it paints a very modern picture of marriage. She's just

409
00:20:19,794 --> 00:20:22,594
Speaker 2: about to be forty in you know, there's a certain

410
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Speaker 2: element of we're trying to be cool and we're trying

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Speaker 2: to be open, and everybody understands that there's now infinite

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Speaker 2: choice in our phones. But it's really hard when you're

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Speaker 2: in love and trying to live a dream to also

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Speaker 2: pretend that you're so fine with all that. So I

415
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Speaker 2: think in some ways it's surprising if this is true,

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Speaker 2: because the opportunity seems to be so much bigger. But

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Speaker 2: then in another way, it's not surprising because millennials have

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Speaker 2: been getting married later, so they've been living together first.

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Speaker 2: I think women have a lot more power and choice

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Speaker 2: in terms of who they decide to settle down with,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe some of the red flags of cheating.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not suggesting for a second that only men cheat,

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Speaker 2: That is certainly not true both sides, but particularly women

424
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Speaker 2: have never probably had as much choice about who they're

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Speaker 2: going to partner with, and so you could argue that

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Speaker 2: there's a place here for well, these marriages maybe will

427
00:21:12,354 --> 00:21:16,954
Speaker 2: better thought out than previous marriages perhaps, And I do think,

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Speaker 2: having just said that about dating apps and things, anecdotally,

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Speaker 2: I feel like millennials are quite puritanical. They're not quite

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Speaker 2: as puritanical as jen Zi's, but very into traditions, very

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Speaker 2: inter rings and marriages. And maybe that is a reaction to,

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Speaker 2: you know, being a generation many of whom are children

433
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Speaker 2: of divorce and marriages that didn't last and maybe saw

434
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Speaker 2: the effects of infidelity. So I think there's like a

435
00:21:40,754 --> 00:21:45,114
Speaker 2: big soupy pot here that probably in a positive way,

436
00:21:45,754 --> 00:21:48,754
Speaker 2: ends up with taking marriage more seriously, thinking about it

437
00:21:48,794 --> 00:21:51,714
Speaker 2: more before you're doing it, understanding the consequences, more of

438
00:21:51,754 --> 00:21:54,114
Speaker 2: messing around, or you're just boring.

439
00:21:54,314 --> 00:21:57,474
Speaker 1: It's true that millennials much more likely to have grown

440
00:21:57,554 --> 00:21:59,634
Speaker 1: up as children of divorce than their children will be

441
00:21:59,674 --> 00:22:02,314
Speaker 1: if these trans continue. The divorce rate peaked in nineteen

442
00:22:02,314 --> 00:22:05,714
Speaker 1: seventy nine, so millennials really were that first generation to

443
00:22:05,834 --> 00:22:09,513
Speaker 1: experience having divorced parents on mass. So, Jesse, are we

444
00:22:09,634 --> 00:22:12,714
Speaker 1: more puritanical or are we in fact just better than

445
00:22:12,794 --> 00:22:15,674
Speaker 1: Gen X because we, yeah, we actually take things like

446
00:22:15,754 --> 00:22:16,914
Speaker 1: commitments seriously.

447
00:22:17,234 --> 00:22:20,074
Speaker 3: I know, I do wonder that, and then I wonder,

448
00:22:20,154 --> 00:22:25,394
Speaker 3: this isn't a totally unfounded theory based on anecdotal evidence,

449
00:22:25,914 --> 00:22:31,274
Speaker 3: which is that I wonder if some millennials their fear

450
00:22:31,354 --> 00:22:33,513
Speaker 3: is the affair, right, they might have seen it in

451
00:22:33,514 --> 00:22:38,793
Speaker 3: their family or their friends' parents, the lies, the way

452
00:22:38,874 --> 00:22:40,274
Speaker 3: it was corrosive.

453
00:22:39,834 --> 00:22:42,034
Speaker 4: To the family unit, that kind of thing, right.

454
00:22:42,474 --> 00:22:47,994
Speaker 3: My theory is that millennials don't necessarily sort of as

455
00:22:48,034 --> 00:22:51,754
Speaker 3: a generation, don't necessarily expect that they will have sex

456
00:22:51,754 --> 00:22:54,674
Speaker 3: with one person until the day they die. And I

457
00:22:54,834 --> 00:22:56,594
Speaker 3: have seen, in fact, a lot of the millennials I

458
00:22:56,674 --> 00:22:58,874
Speaker 3: know who have chosen not to get married are just

459
00:22:58,954 --> 00:23:01,634
Speaker 3: sort of like, we're together, we love each other.

460
00:23:01,714 --> 00:23:02,793
Speaker 4: It's great.

461
00:23:03,314 --> 00:23:06,714
Speaker 3: If there was boredom in our sex lives, or if

462
00:23:06,754 --> 00:23:10,634
Speaker 3: they're pretty open to going, whether it's an open relationship,

463
00:23:10,674 --> 00:23:14,554
Speaker 3: whether it's non monogamy, whether it's a break whatever they

464
00:23:14,594 --> 00:23:18,154
Speaker 3: call it. I wonder if the extra marital affair, that

465
00:23:18,394 --> 00:23:22,313
Speaker 3: terminology of something that's like a full on relationship outside

466
00:23:22,314 --> 00:23:26,474
Speaker 3: your marriage, is being reinvented as something that can Maybe

467
00:23:27,154 --> 00:23:30,033
Speaker 3: sex isn't the be all and end all, and you

468
00:23:30,034 --> 00:23:32,553
Speaker 3: can explore it outside your relationship, Like I wonder if

469
00:23:32,594 --> 00:23:33,194
Speaker 3: that's part of it.

470
00:23:33,274 --> 00:23:36,033
Speaker 2: I don't think that's part of it. I think like

471
00:23:36,114 --> 00:23:37,793
Speaker 2: I would like to think that was part of it,

472
00:23:37,874 --> 00:23:41,274
Speaker 2: because I genuinely think that the longer you're in a relationship,

473
00:23:41,794 --> 00:23:45,474
Speaker 2: and the more foundations you have around that relationship, whether

474
00:23:45,474 --> 00:23:49,154
Speaker 2: they're children, whether that is shared history, whether it's blended families,

475
00:23:49,194 --> 00:23:54,434
Speaker 2: whether it's financial merging, you realize that the sexual fidelity

476
00:23:54,474 --> 00:23:57,434
Speaker 2: part of it is not really it, Like it's small. Yeah,

477
00:23:57,714 --> 00:24:01,114
Speaker 2: And so I'd like to think that millennials are understanding that,

478
00:24:01,194 --> 00:24:03,554
Speaker 2: But that feels more like a gen Z thing the whole,

479
00:24:03,674 --> 00:24:05,994
Speaker 2: like thropple open pot.

480
00:24:06,114 --> 00:24:10,073
Speaker 3: I know I have seen images like like even you know,

481
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:12,794
Speaker 3: pictures from a wedding on Instagram and I've gone that

482
00:24:12,954 --> 00:24:16,634
Speaker 3: so interesting that I know and everyone, all the friends

483
00:24:16,674 --> 00:24:19,954
Speaker 3: of the people at that wedding know that they sleep

484
00:24:19,954 --> 00:24:22,554
Speaker 3: with other people and that they're both comfortable with that, and.

485
00:24:22,514 --> 00:24:25,354
Speaker 2: It's just interesting. Still a massive outlier, Like whenever we

486
00:24:25,394 --> 00:24:28,273
Speaker 2: were on the stories Mama Mia about open marriages and

487
00:24:28,354 --> 00:24:33,034
Speaker 2: open relationships, there's still an enormous sort of curiosity because

488
00:24:33,074 --> 00:24:34,754
Speaker 2: it's still seen as quite odd.

489
00:24:34,954 --> 00:24:37,114
Speaker 4: I think it's talk about odd.

490
00:24:37,274 --> 00:24:40,314
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm saying that it's seen as quite odd, and even.

491
00:24:40,114 --> 00:24:41,234
Speaker 4: In this is Why We Fight.

492
00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:43,793
Speaker 3: I've been listening to that Mum Mayer podcast and it's

493
00:24:43,834 --> 00:24:46,914
Speaker 3: come up a few times of I would say millennial

494
00:24:47,074 --> 00:24:50,074
Speaker 3: sort of elder millennials talking about going through a rough

495
00:24:50,114 --> 00:24:52,994
Speaker 3: patch of their marriage and opening it up and going,

496
00:24:53,034 --> 00:24:54,594
Speaker 3: all right, you sleep with this person, I'll sleep with

497
00:24:54,594 --> 00:24:57,634
Speaker 3: this person, especially with like little kids or whatever.

498
00:24:57,874 --> 00:25:00,234
Speaker 2: I wonder a question that that is less hurtful.

499
00:25:00,634 --> 00:25:04,074
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I am hearing about that. I anctotally Jesse,

500
00:25:04,314 --> 00:25:06,754
Speaker 1: particularly in a US context. So it's interesting that you're

501
00:25:06,754 --> 00:25:09,434
Speaker 1: also about it here. But I think you're onto something

502
00:25:09,474 --> 00:25:12,553
Speaker 1: with this idea that for millennial's marriage means something a

503
00:25:12,554 --> 00:25:15,834
Speaker 1: little bit different to what it used to mean. And Holly,

504
00:25:15,914 --> 00:25:18,954
Speaker 1: I want you to reserve judgment on this. I have

505
00:25:19,074 --> 00:25:21,434
Speaker 1: a theory that I want to bring to you, which

506
00:25:21,474 --> 00:25:25,194
Speaker 1: is that there's this new idea of the aloof wife,

507
00:25:25,794 --> 00:25:29,114
Speaker 1: and that means that women are not thinking of marriage

508
00:25:29,114 --> 00:25:31,594
Speaker 1: as their whole identity anymore. As I know you do, Holly.

509
00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:34,394
Speaker 1: I know that's very important to you. Oh wait. The

510
00:25:34,434 --> 00:25:37,513
Speaker 1: New New York mayor Zoran Mandani's wife is a twenty

511
00:25:37,514 --> 00:25:41,273
Speaker 1: eight year old animator. Her name is Ramaduagi. She was

512
00:25:41,274 --> 00:25:43,354
Speaker 1: called aloof by The New York Post in the lead

513
00:25:43,434 --> 00:25:46,954
Speaker 1: up to his successful mayoral campaign because she basically didn't

514
00:25:46,954 --> 00:25:48,954
Speaker 1: post about him on social media. Two days before he

515
00:25:48,994 --> 00:25:52,194
Speaker 1: was elected, she posted on Instagram, I want to get

516
00:25:52,194 --> 00:25:54,914
Speaker 1: this exactly right. Things I saw in October that made

517
00:25:54,994 --> 00:25:57,314
Speaker 1: me want to make art, which I just love that

518
00:25:58,274 --> 00:26:01,154
Speaker 1: like nothing about her husband making global headline.

519
00:26:01,194 --> 00:26:03,074
Speaker 2: She's not just standing next to him in a sheef

520
00:26:03,194 --> 00:26:04,793
Speaker 2: dress like smiling and waving.

521
00:26:04,874 --> 00:26:08,833
Speaker 1: No sheef dresses, no kissing baby, no cheesy photo ops.

522
00:26:09,074 --> 00:26:12,594
Speaker 1: He's doing his thing professionally. She's doing her thing professionally.

523
00:26:12,874 --> 00:26:15,954
Speaker 1: There was some reporting that she'd been really instrumental in

524
00:26:16,034 --> 00:26:18,434
Speaker 1: creating the look and feel of his social campaign, which

525
00:26:18,474 --> 00:26:20,994
Speaker 1: was a huge part of why people thought he was successful.

526
00:26:21,314 --> 00:26:24,914
Speaker 1: So clearly she had some input professionally speaking, but her

527
00:26:24,954 --> 00:26:28,034
Speaker 1: identity was not tied up in the idea of the marriage.

528
00:26:28,034 --> 00:26:30,194
Speaker 1: And this seems to speak to your idea that millennials

529
00:26:30,234 --> 00:26:33,514
Speaker 1: are finding a new way of approaching marriage that works

530
00:26:33,514 --> 00:26:35,794
Speaker 1: for them, whether that means an open marriage or being

531
00:26:35,834 --> 00:26:36,674
Speaker 1: an aloof wife.

532
00:26:36,794 --> 00:26:40,354
Speaker 3: Yeah, even the like first lady model of politics, I

533
00:26:40,394 --> 00:26:42,434
Speaker 3: feel like the millennials are going to have none of that.

534
00:26:42,714 --> 00:26:45,514
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm not here for your photo op. I'm here,

535
00:26:45,634 --> 00:26:48,194
Speaker 3: Hasslin on my own accord.

536
00:26:48,514 --> 00:26:48,954
Speaker 1: I hope.

537
00:26:49,034 --> 00:26:52,234
Speaker 2: So you have a very different view of millennials of me,

538
00:26:52,274 --> 00:26:55,994
Speaker 2: and that I after gen X's sort of messy cynicism,

539
00:26:56,234 --> 00:26:59,994
Speaker 2: I see millennials as being pretty uptight generally speaking, and

540
00:27:00,194 --> 00:27:04,553
Speaker 2: very inter traditions and quite conservative, and that gen Z

541
00:27:04,674 --> 00:27:07,714
Speaker 2: had then been the pushback on that. But the other

542
00:27:07,914 --> 00:27:10,674
Speaker 2: theory that's out there is just that all the stats

543
00:27:10,674 --> 00:27:13,274
Speaker 2: say that people are having less sex full.

544
00:27:13,074 --> 00:27:14,714
Speaker 1: Stop, the sex recession.

545
00:27:14,834 --> 00:27:19,074
Speaker 2: Yeah, so particularly younger people are having less sex full stop,

546
00:27:19,154 --> 00:27:22,034
Speaker 2: and so that follows on that there's less extra marital

547
00:27:22,114 --> 00:27:25,354
Speaker 2: sex because and this is also a little bit depressing

548
00:27:25,754 --> 00:27:28,434
Speaker 2: they're probably just watching a lot of Porner. Oh maybe

549
00:27:28,474 --> 00:27:31,394
Speaker 2: they've got AI boss like we talked about on Monday.

550
00:27:31,674 --> 00:27:36,434
Speaker 2: Does that classify if you've designed your perfect serena girlfriend?

551
00:27:37,114 --> 00:27:37,954
Speaker 2: Is that cheating?

552
00:27:38,234 --> 00:27:40,754
Speaker 1: Something you said before has really stuck with me, Holly

553
00:27:40,794 --> 00:27:43,874
Speaker 1: about this idea that it's never been easier to cheat,

554
00:27:44,074 --> 00:27:46,194
Speaker 1: But it's also, in a way, never been harder to

555
00:27:46,314 --> 00:27:50,554
Speaker 1: cheat because we are so used to higher levels of surveillance,

556
00:27:50,634 --> 00:27:53,514
Speaker 1: both from our partner and from the tech companies. It's

557
00:27:53,514 --> 00:27:57,434
Speaker 1: the tracking, it's the tracking cracking. I think millennials are.

558
00:27:57,314 --> 00:28:00,554
Speaker 2: Just too scared to cheat, They're too savvy to cheat.

559
00:28:00,474 --> 00:28:02,834
Speaker 4: Because you've got your what's the app that Maya's got

560
00:28:02,834 --> 00:28:03,234
Speaker 4: to fall on?

561
00:28:03,394 --> 00:28:04,914
Speaker 2: Glabe sixty, You're like.

562
00:28:04,954 --> 00:28:05,634
Speaker 4: Where are you?

563
00:28:06,154 --> 00:28:08,553
Speaker 2: I can see where you are. It's true, it's like

564
00:28:08,674 --> 00:28:11,874
Speaker 2: easier and harder at the same time. It's technology. Technology

565
00:28:11,874 --> 00:28:12,834
Speaker 2: has done something good.

566
00:28:12,994 --> 00:28:15,834
Speaker 3: Perhaps I came across this great post, which I think

567
00:28:15,914 --> 00:28:18,033
Speaker 3: is actually about jen Z, But I came across this

568
00:28:18,114 --> 00:28:20,594
Speaker 3: great post this week that said I have a theory

569
00:28:20,754 --> 00:28:23,674
Speaker 3: that if you ask basically anybody alive today how their

570
00:28:23,714 --> 00:28:27,674
Speaker 3: parents met, the story would violate at least one arbitrary

571
00:28:27,834 --> 00:28:31,514
Speaker 3: zoomer dating rule and that's why nobody's having kids now.

572
00:28:31,994 --> 00:28:34,513
Speaker 3: And it says age gap asked out at work, asked

573
00:28:34,514 --> 00:28:39,354
Speaker 3: out multiple times, co workers, boss slash employee, and basically

574
00:28:40,354 --> 00:28:44,554
Speaker 3: you need to break really serious social rules in order

575
00:28:44,594 --> 00:28:47,114
Speaker 3: to find love. And I loved this because I was

576
00:28:47,154 --> 00:28:51,034
Speaker 3: at a funeral recently and it's like he decided he

577
00:28:51,114 --> 00:28:54,794
Speaker 3: loved Patty, but Patty said he was too short and

578
00:28:54,954 --> 00:28:59,914
Speaker 3: too poor. But he decided to corner Patty and force

579
00:29:00,034 --> 00:29:03,194
Speaker 3: Patty into marriage, and they had eleven children and it

580
00:29:03,314 --> 00:29:05,114
Speaker 3: was a love story for the ages.

581
00:29:05,234 --> 00:29:07,074
Speaker 4: And it's like and everyone cried.

582
00:29:07,354 --> 00:29:12,154
Speaker 3: It is like, hold, they're together again, and Patty's probably

583
00:29:12,194 --> 00:29:14,194
Speaker 3: been dead for ten years, going, Thank the fuck, I

584
00:29:14,194 --> 00:29:16,874
Speaker 3: get some time on my earn from this creepy guy

585
00:29:16,914 --> 00:29:18,314
Speaker 3: who stalks me my whole life.

586
00:29:19,114 --> 00:29:19,874
Speaker 1: That's true.

587
00:29:20,794 --> 00:29:21,914
Speaker 2: It's so good.

588
00:29:22,434 --> 00:29:25,234
Speaker 3: After the break the essay about cosmetic surgery, I have

589
00:29:25,394 --> 00:29:29,234
Speaker 3: not stopped thinking about. From Emma Stone to Miley Cyrus,

590
00:29:29,434 --> 00:29:33,154
Speaker 3: why the Hugo girl approach is actually a massive.

591
00:29:32,834 --> 00:29:37,474
Speaker 2: Problem One Unlimited out Loud access. We drop episodes every

592
00:29:37,514 --> 00:29:41,874
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the

593
00:29:41,874 --> 00:29:43,474
Speaker 2: link at the show notes to get us in your

594
00:29:43,474 --> 00:29:46,674
Speaker 2: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you

595
00:29:46,794 --> 00:29:48,194
Speaker 2: to all our current.

596
00:29:47,954 --> 00:29:55,034
Speaker 4: Subscribers Black Fridays around the corner.

597
00:29:55,034 --> 00:29:57,154
Speaker 3: It's only next week now, But what if I told

598
00:29:57,194 --> 00:30:01,394
Speaker 3: you that you don't need that fancy goo Holly, no fancy.

599
00:30:02,194 --> 00:30:07,634
Speaker 2: Sorry, we're talking about all the skincare products are waving

600
00:30:07,674 --> 00:30:08,994
Speaker 2: for Black Friday to kick in.

601
00:30:09,754 --> 00:30:11,714
Speaker 4: I think is gonna she's gonna fill.

602
00:30:11,594 --> 00:30:15,954
Speaker 1: Up on its comment here, exactly right.

603
00:30:17,154 --> 00:30:19,714
Speaker 4: That also, I don't want cash to comment.

604
00:30:19,794 --> 00:30:20,914
Speaker 1: I want comment.

605
00:30:21,434 --> 00:30:25,714
Speaker 2: You could telling me we don't need that expensive stuff.

606
00:30:25,714 --> 00:30:28,154
Speaker 3: We don't need we don't need a face mask or

607
00:30:29,194 --> 00:30:32,234
Speaker 3: because the most effective beauty trend is entirely free.

608
00:30:32,594 --> 00:30:33,554
Speaker 4: Ladies have we.

609
00:30:33,914 --> 00:30:36,674
Speaker 1: Say good night's sleep, I'm going to I'm not.

610
00:30:36,594 --> 00:30:41,394
Speaker 3: Gonna dare say water. I'm not gonna say water. Menstrel mask,

611
00:30:41,514 --> 00:30:44,834
Speaker 3: Oh hear me out? Putting menstrual blood on your face

612
00:30:45,434 --> 00:30:48,074
Speaker 3: as a form of skin care has exploded.

613
00:30:49,874 --> 00:30:51,874
Speaker 1: Explode exploded, It's exploded.

614
00:30:52,514 --> 00:30:53,914
Speaker 4: It's clotted all over the.

615
00:30:55,434 --> 00:30:57,474
Speaker 1: Damn it, Jesse, there goes your.

616
00:30:59,034 --> 00:31:03,914
Speaker 3: Okay, so it contains stem cells something called Sieto themselves

617
00:31:03,954 --> 00:31:04,314
Speaker 3: are good.

618
00:31:04,314 --> 00:31:09,194
Speaker 1: I see them on expense a lot of money.

619
00:31:08,114 --> 00:31:12,754
Speaker 3: I didn't see peptides but I did see proteins, and

620
00:31:12,794 --> 00:31:13,794
Speaker 3: Holly loves proteins.

621
00:31:14,434 --> 00:31:15,514
Speaker 2: Cottage is like.

622
00:31:15,474 --> 00:31:19,514
Speaker 4: Cottage sheets, and it rejuvenates the skin. Apparently. Apparently it's

623
00:31:19,514 --> 00:31:22,114
Speaker 4: also healing and empowering, But so is thatcher.

624
00:31:22,474 --> 00:31:28,914
Speaker 3: So scientists say it can help with wound healing, but

625
00:31:29,114 --> 00:31:33,314
Speaker 3: otherwise they will step back from saying conclusively it makes

626
00:31:33,314 --> 00:31:36,154
Speaker 3: you hot. That's scientist is like, we're not going to

627
00:31:36,194 --> 00:31:41,154
Speaker 3: say that Holly is menstrual masking the answer to everything.

628
00:31:41,194 --> 00:31:43,874
Speaker 3: But capitalism is getting defensive because it wants.

629
00:31:43,674 --> 00:31:48,114
Speaker 2: To buy just more proof of elitist ages around here.

630
00:31:48,954 --> 00:31:53,714
Speaker 2: Blood is very hard to combine. Try and steal it

631
00:31:53,714 --> 00:32:00,034
Speaker 2: from my young I guess.

632
00:31:58,394 --> 00:31:59,954
Speaker 4: Now, who needs the millennials?

633
00:32:01,714 --> 00:32:05,834
Speaker 2: Am I into this idea? No, I'm sure it is

634
00:32:05,914 --> 00:32:06,834
Speaker 2: probably true.

635
00:32:07,394 --> 00:32:12,314
Speaker 1: Yes, you think it reminds me of you know, Jermaine

636
00:32:12,354 --> 00:32:15,394
Speaker 1: Greer in The Female Unit. She says that should be

637
00:32:15,474 --> 00:32:17,994
Speaker 1: fully empowered as a woman, you need to taste your

638
00:32:17,994 --> 00:32:21,234
Speaker 1: own menstrual blood. Now, this was before sheep masks were invented.

639
00:32:21,314 --> 00:32:23,474
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would have said make a face mask

640
00:32:23,554 --> 00:32:25,834
Speaker 1: of your menstrual blood if that was something in the

641
00:32:25,874 --> 00:32:26,914
Speaker 1: culture at the time.

642
00:32:27,474 --> 00:32:28,674
Speaker 4: I like the idea of trying it.

643
00:32:28,714 --> 00:32:31,474
Speaker 3: I like the idea that we've always had all the

644
00:32:31,514 --> 00:32:33,674
Speaker 3: goo we need, but we've just never used it.

645
00:32:33,994 --> 00:32:35,794
Speaker 2: Look inside yourself.

646
00:32:35,994 --> 00:32:38,594
Speaker 3: You'll and you'll find it. It's just lots ago different

647
00:32:38,634 --> 00:32:42,434
Speaker 3: times of the month that we can try. Look, don't

648
00:32:42,474 --> 00:32:46,634
Speaker 3: try this at home, or do you guys, it's absolutely fine.

649
00:32:47,034 --> 00:32:50,034
Speaker 3: I think your daughter Matilda would be horrified if you

650
00:32:50,034 --> 00:32:51,714
Speaker 3: showed up with your menstrual masking on.

651
00:32:52,634 --> 00:32:56,074
Speaker 2: But you know what you do, you friends. I'm bringing

652
00:32:56,114 --> 00:32:59,354
Speaker 2: two face topics to the table. Actually, we've just talked

653
00:32:59,434 --> 00:33:02,434
Speaker 2: about faces three, so I'm already breaking some taboos that

654
00:33:02,474 --> 00:33:05,074
Speaker 2: we're going to be exploring in a minute. One of

655
00:33:05,114 --> 00:33:07,834
Speaker 2: them is about the fact that nobody appears to have

656
00:33:07,994 --> 00:33:13,354
Speaker 2: eyelids anymore. Eyelids are over. I'm talking, of course, about

657
00:33:13,514 --> 00:33:15,834
Speaker 2: the bleth or the blepheroplasty.

658
00:33:16,114 --> 00:33:20,034
Speaker 3: Okay, can you explain what this is because it's something

659
00:33:20,274 --> 00:33:23,994
Speaker 3: that women around me of a certain age are talking about.

660
00:33:24,154 --> 00:33:25,754
Speaker 3: But I didn't know what a bleff was.

661
00:33:25,914 --> 00:33:29,874
Speaker 2: So a blef is the short social media friendly term

662
00:33:30,034 --> 00:33:33,194
Speaker 2: for a blethheroplasty, which is basically.

663
00:33:32,714 --> 00:33:33,674
Speaker 1: An eyelid lift.

664
00:33:34,034 --> 00:33:37,314
Speaker 2: And you know it's surgery. It's surgery that requires suitures

665
00:33:37,314 --> 00:33:39,554
Speaker 2: and recovery time. And all the rest of it. And

666
00:33:39,594 --> 00:33:44,034
Speaker 2: it's something that older women have sometimes been medically prescribed

667
00:33:44,074 --> 00:33:47,034
Speaker 2: this because drooping eyelids can become a real problem. But

668
00:33:47,114 --> 00:33:50,634
Speaker 2: it's really entered the mainstream just in the past even

669
00:33:50,674 --> 00:33:53,874
Speaker 2: i'd say like six to twelve months as this thing

670
00:33:53,914 --> 00:33:55,954
Speaker 2: the blef, I'm getting a bleath, I'm getting a bleth.

671
00:33:56,034 --> 00:33:58,834
Speaker 2: It's more a cosmetic choice and a medical And also

672
00:33:58,914 --> 00:34:01,154
Speaker 2: the age of those women seems to be dropping and

673
00:34:01,194 --> 00:34:04,394
Speaker 2: dropping and dropping. We're seeing all over social media before

674
00:34:04,514 --> 00:34:07,234
Speaker 2: us and afters of my bleth and my bleff recover

675
00:34:07,554 --> 00:34:10,834
Speaker 2: left left left like it's it feels like suddenly it's everywhere,

676
00:34:11,393 --> 00:34:15,154
Speaker 2: And it's also being very widely diagnosed as the reason

677
00:34:15,154 --> 00:34:18,953
Speaker 2: why a lot of young ish celebrity women in their

678
00:34:18,954 --> 00:34:21,554
Speaker 2: thirties who are being their faces are being talked about

679
00:34:21,834 --> 00:34:26,034
Speaker 2: about why they suddenly look fresher, more snatched, younger, all

680
00:34:26,034 --> 00:34:27,834
Speaker 2: that stuff, right, So this has led to a lot

681
00:34:27,834 --> 00:34:30,234
Speaker 2: of articles about like I thought it was the menstrual blood,

682
00:34:30,594 --> 00:34:33,794
Speaker 2: but probably now we know that. This has led to

683
00:34:33,834 --> 00:34:36,393
Speaker 2: lots of articles about, like, your eyelids are making you

684
00:34:36,434 --> 00:34:40,234
Speaker 2: look cold, eyelids are done, Like I'm.

685
00:34:40,114 --> 00:34:43,513
Speaker 1: Like I feel bad about to help like not get

686
00:34:43,554 --> 00:34:44,794
Speaker 1: particles into your eyes?

687
00:34:44,914 --> 00:34:47,994
Speaker 2: Is that not sore thing have a purpose? But there's

688
00:34:47,994 --> 00:34:50,114
Speaker 2: no question that. I mean, and some people have heavy

689
00:34:50,154 --> 00:34:53,553
Speaker 2: eyelids and hooded eyelids always, and obviously people from different

690
00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:56,634
Speaker 2: cultures and different backgrounds have different kind of eyelids, but

691
00:34:56,794 --> 00:34:59,554
Speaker 2: there is no question that broadly speaking, as you age,

692
00:34:59,594 --> 00:35:02,074
Speaker 2: they droop, and that lifting them a bit is generally

693
00:35:02,114 --> 00:35:04,714
Speaker 2: considered to make a lot younger. So suddenly it's left, left, left.

694
00:35:05,194 --> 00:35:07,434
Speaker 2: My question is for you, Jesse, because if you have

695
00:35:07,514 --> 00:35:11,114
Speaker 2: been talking NonStop about an essay that you read about

696
00:35:11,314 --> 00:35:15,914
Speaker 2: surgery and cosmetic procedures this week that encompasses this, why

697
00:35:16,154 --> 00:35:18,594
Speaker 2: suddenly we would all be pointing at one particular part

698
00:35:18,594 --> 00:35:21,354
Speaker 2: of a woman's face and saying that's the problem.

699
00:35:21,514 --> 00:35:21,993
Speaker 1: Fix that?

700
00:35:22,074 --> 00:35:25,114
Speaker 2: And why suddenly if you type bleff into TikTok, there

701
00:35:25,154 --> 00:35:28,834
Speaker 2: are hundreds of thousands of things that suddenly have appeared

702
00:35:28,874 --> 00:35:31,194
Speaker 2: from nowhere. Tell me about that essay.

703
00:35:31,514 --> 00:35:34,274
Speaker 3: So there's this essay doing the rounds on substack, and

704
00:35:34,354 --> 00:35:36,794
Speaker 3: I think it's something like a half hour read right,

705
00:35:37,234 --> 00:35:40,714
Speaker 3: The title is the anti Cosmetic Surgery Essay Every Woman

706
00:35:40,954 --> 00:35:41,513
Speaker 3: should Read.

707
00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:42,554
Speaker 4: Have you both read it?

708
00:35:42,634 --> 00:35:46,634
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes? Okay, so only because you told me, only

709
00:35:46,674 --> 00:35:49,514
Speaker 1: because you kept posting it and saying.

710
00:35:49,274 --> 00:35:52,074
Speaker 2: Read it did make me realize that all my newsletters

711
00:35:52,114 --> 00:35:54,674
Speaker 2: from now on should just be like the gardening tip

712
00:35:54,714 --> 00:36:01,154
Speaker 2: Henry woman should, every woman should read.

713
00:35:59,274 --> 00:36:00,914
Speaker 4: The rhyme should.

714
00:36:01,354 --> 00:36:02,714
Speaker 3: And I just loved as I kept going out, I

715
00:36:02,754 --> 00:36:04,114
Speaker 3: didn't hit a pay wall. I think I was just

716
00:36:04,154 --> 00:36:04,873
Speaker 3: really satisfied.

717
00:36:04,914 --> 00:36:06,714
Speaker 1: Can we just say that the reason why I caught

718
00:36:06,754 --> 00:36:10,714
Speaker 1: my eye initially is because it's accompanied by two pictures

719
00:36:10,754 --> 00:36:14,674
Speaker 1: of Miley Cyrus that are very confronting. It looks like

720
00:36:14,794 --> 00:36:19,114
Speaker 1: she has very gaunt cheeks, and I guess this is

721
00:36:19,114 --> 00:36:22,754
Speaker 1: connected with this buckle fat removal procedure that she's rumened

722
00:36:22,794 --> 00:36:23,314
Speaker 1: to have had.

723
00:36:23,634 --> 00:36:26,114
Speaker 4: She's looking almost unrecognizable.

724
00:36:26,154 --> 00:36:28,074
Speaker 3: She's one of the ones that is like almost like

725
00:36:28,114 --> 00:36:31,234
Speaker 3: the face is an extension of style and you can

726
00:36:31,274 --> 00:36:35,714
Speaker 3: get a bunch of surgery that might make you reinvent

727
00:36:35,914 --> 00:36:36,634
Speaker 3: entirely how.

728
00:36:36,514 --> 00:36:38,433
Speaker 2: You look in fashion for the moment too.

729
00:36:38,714 --> 00:36:39,514
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.

730
00:36:39,634 --> 00:36:42,274
Speaker 3: And Emma Stone's face has been getting a lot of

731
00:36:42,394 --> 00:36:44,834
Speaker 3: analysis lately. Jennifer Lawrence has come out and talked about

732
00:36:44,834 --> 00:36:47,194
Speaker 3: some of the work that she's had done and Miley.

733
00:36:46,914 --> 00:36:50,354
Speaker 4: Cyrus and basically this writer she writes.

734
00:36:50,194 --> 00:36:52,553
Speaker 3: Under a pseudonym, which I think she's said too yeah,

735
00:36:52,594 --> 00:36:54,594
Speaker 3: which I thought was really telling. I don't think she

736
00:36:54,594 --> 00:36:58,074
Speaker 3: could write this under her name. Her pseudonym is father Karen.

737
00:36:58,754 --> 00:37:02,754
Speaker 3: She said that as women and within kind of traditional

738
00:37:02,794 --> 00:37:06,594
Speaker 3: feminist discourse, we now all have to hold hands and go, oh,

739
00:37:06,794 --> 00:37:10,634
Speaker 3: I yes, I feel sad that everyone has the same face. Now, oh,

740
00:37:10,714 --> 00:37:13,834
Speaker 3: well you do you you go, girl.

741
00:37:13,754 --> 00:37:17,754
Speaker 1: I'm miss Emma Stone's face. Yes, sad face emoji.

742
00:37:17,434 --> 00:37:18,994
Speaker 3: And you're allowed to kind of have that, but you

743
00:37:19,074 --> 00:37:21,154
Speaker 3: are not allowed to judge a woman's choices.

744
00:37:21,874 --> 00:37:24,314
Speaker 4: And I actually subscribe to that entirely.

745
00:37:24,514 --> 00:37:26,994
Speaker 3: I feel like we're all in this burning building, and

746
00:37:27,074 --> 00:37:29,714
Speaker 3: to judge a woman who goes down the cosmetic surgery

747
00:37:29,794 --> 00:37:32,554
Speaker 3: route is to judge her for jumping out of the

748
00:37:32,594 --> 00:37:35,994
Speaker 3: burning building, like I understand why you did it. But

749
00:37:36,114 --> 00:37:40,634
Speaker 3: what we're not allowed to do is then criticize or

750
00:37:41,034 --> 00:37:43,794
Speaker 3: analyze the trends, and in so doing, we're all kind

751
00:37:43,794 --> 00:37:48,234
Speaker 3: of holding up this beauty industrial complex that makes us

752
00:37:48,314 --> 00:37:49,354
Speaker 3: all sad.

753
00:37:49,434 --> 00:37:51,594
Speaker 2: And that's how point I saw that our eyelids need.

754
00:37:51,474 --> 00:37:56,154
Speaker 3: Fixing, exactly. And this is not making women happier. It's

755
00:37:56,194 --> 00:38:00,154
Speaker 3: not making women feel more beautiful studies and evidence that

756
00:38:00,234 --> 00:38:03,074
Speaker 3: this self objectifying that we're all doing, especially as the

757
00:38:03,074 --> 00:38:06,154
Speaker 3: world gets more and more scary and bleak, we're all

758
00:38:06,194 --> 00:38:08,834
Speaker 3: just going back into our bodies and going what can

759
00:38:08,874 --> 00:38:09,314
Speaker 3: I control?

760
00:38:09,354 --> 00:38:09,913
Speaker 4: What can I do?

761
00:38:10,674 --> 00:38:13,114
Speaker 3: And that what might start with a little bit of

762
00:38:13,154 --> 00:38:15,354
Speaker 3: anti wrinkle injections, it might become.

763
00:38:15,554 --> 00:38:18,514
Speaker 4: The bleff or the lips or the buckle fat removal

764
00:38:19,714 --> 00:38:20,274
Speaker 4: or whatever.

765
00:38:20,594 --> 00:38:21,993
Speaker 2: Do you blame facelift?

766
00:38:22,194 --> 00:38:26,634
Speaker 3: Yeap is just like this refocusing on ourselves that makes

767
00:38:26,714 --> 00:38:28,873
Speaker 3: us feel uglier and uglier and need more and more

768
00:38:28,914 --> 00:38:33,994
Speaker 3: and more work because a happy consumer is a bad consumer.

769
00:38:34,114 --> 00:38:36,073
Speaker 3: You're not going to go and just pay for things

770
00:38:36,074 --> 00:38:37,794
Speaker 3: that they need you to do. And the amount of

771
00:38:37,794 --> 00:38:40,794
Speaker 3: work now involved in the maintenance of the female form

772
00:38:41,194 --> 00:38:43,674
Speaker 3: is out of control. And can we all agree that

773
00:38:43,714 --> 00:38:48,754
Speaker 3: it's like from the micro needling to the facials, to

774
00:38:48,834 --> 00:38:52,433
Speaker 3: the heir, to the laser to the masks that we

775
00:38:52,434 --> 00:38:55,514
Speaker 3: wear it like it, it is totally out of control.

776
00:38:55,554 --> 00:38:58,994
Speaker 3: So I guess my question is do we feel like

777
00:38:59,034 --> 00:39:01,873
Speaker 3: we can have an honest conversation? And me has been

778
00:39:01,914 --> 00:39:04,314
Speaker 3: saying this for ages. May has been saying, you know,

779
00:39:04,394 --> 00:39:06,394
Speaker 3: it's the mprison new clothes. None of us are allowed

780
00:39:06,474 --> 00:39:08,594
Speaker 3: to say, what the hell is happening to everyone's faces

781
00:39:08,594 --> 00:39:10,913
Speaker 3: because we don't want to judge them? But do you

782
00:39:10,954 --> 00:39:13,634
Speaker 3: guys feel the same that it's come to a point

783
00:39:13,674 --> 00:39:17,873
Speaker 3: where it's like, we can't criticize the culture that is,

784
00:39:18,274 --> 00:39:20,794
Speaker 3: let's be real, it's ninety five percent women or something

785
00:39:20,834 --> 00:39:23,794
Speaker 3: like that that are going and getting these procedures. Are

786
00:39:23,794 --> 00:39:26,194
Speaker 3: we all comfortable with that? She calls it self mutilation.

787
00:39:26,274 --> 00:39:27,993
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'd go that far, but are

788
00:39:27,994 --> 00:39:28,913
Speaker 3: we comfortable with that?

789
00:39:29,074 --> 00:39:31,873
Speaker 2: I don't buy the idea that we're not talking about

790
00:39:31,914 --> 00:39:35,834
Speaker 2: women's faces. It's all the culture does all day, every day.

791
00:39:36,034 --> 00:39:39,553
Speaker 2: Like I agree with this woman's points on almost all

792
00:39:39,594 --> 00:39:42,954
Speaker 2: of it, but the starting point of we're not allowed

793
00:39:42,954 --> 00:39:46,834
Speaker 2: to talk about women's faces is just nonsense. Like Jennifer

794
00:39:46,874 --> 00:39:49,514
Speaker 2: Lawrence is a great example of this by all accounts.

795
00:39:49,554 --> 00:39:51,474
Speaker 2: That movie that she's in at the moment, that is

796
00:39:51,514 --> 00:39:55,394
Speaker 2: the reason that she's everywhere with Robert Pattinson. She turns

797
00:39:55,394 --> 00:39:59,593
Speaker 2: in the most astonishing performance in a really interesting role

798
00:39:59,994 --> 00:40:02,714
Speaker 2: about motherhood and mental health and all this craziness, and

799
00:40:02,754 --> 00:40:05,913
Speaker 2: she's wild in it. And the only headlines I have

800
00:40:05,954 --> 00:40:08,114
Speaker 2: seen about Jennifer Lawrence the last month have been about

801
00:40:08,114 --> 00:40:09,914
Speaker 2: her face, her boobs, that's it.

802
00:40:09,994 --> 00:40:12,953
Speaker 3: But don't you think they're all you go girl, they're

803
00:40:12,954 --> 00:40:13,754
Speaker 3: all like cheering.

804
00:40:14,074 --> 00:40:16,834
Speaker 2: I don't I think we all agree. Well, I don't

805
00:40:16,874 --> 00:40:19,154
Speaker 2: know that we all agree, but I'm certainly in agreement.

806
00:40:19,434 --> 00:40:21,114
Speaker 2: And I always have been with me A's point about

807
00:40:21,114 --> 00:40:23,394
Speaker 2: like what is happening here? And it's sick to a point,

808
00:40:23,434 --> 00:40:26,194
Speaker 2: not sick this is a strong word, but there's no

809
00:40:26,354 --> 00:40:29,393
Speaker 2: question we're all being led down a pass that is

810
00:40:29,434 --> 00:40:33,474
Speaker 2: a no win game, right, And I personally try and

811
00:40:33,514 --> 00:40:35,794
Speaker 2: resist it as much as I can within the realms

812
00:40:35,794 --> 00:40:41,674
Speaker 2: of serum buying. But I think that always wanting to

813
00:40:41,674 --> 00:40:44,154
Speaker 2: bring it back and hang it on We're not allowed

814
00:40:44,154 --> 00:40:48,234
Speaker 2: to talk about Emma Stone's face is disingenuous. All we

815
00:40:48,274 --> 00:40:51,194
Speaker 2: do is talk about Emma Stone's face. All we want

816
00:40:51,234 --> 00:40:55,234
Speaker 2: to do is prosecute this enormous issue through the prism

817
00:40:55,314 --> 00:40:57,714
Speaker 2: of one or two or three women that we want

818
00:40:57,754 --> 00:41:01,314
Speaker 2: to pick apart call monstrous. Basically, go look at her.

819
00:41:01,394 --> 00:41:04,554
Speaker 2: She must be insecure, look at her, she must be vain,

820
00:41:05,034 --> 00:41:07,754
Speaker 2: look at her like I think that's all all we do.

821
00:41:07,914 --> 00:41:10,194
Speaker 2: So I just don't really buy the idea that we're

822
00:41:10,234 --> 00:41:13,154
Speaker 2: not because I think that if we really felt we

823
00:41:13,154 --> 00:41:15,914
Speaker 2: couldn't talk about women's faces, we'd be talking about Jennifer

824
00:41:15,954 --> 00:41:17,434
Speaker 2: Lawrence's movie.

825
00:41:17,394 --> 00:41:18,434
Speaker 4: What do You Reckon? Amelia?

826
00:41:18,514 --> 00:41:20,593
Speaker 1: Look, I think it's clear that we can talk about

827
00:41:20,594 --> 00:41:22,913
Speaker 1: their faces. I agree with you, Holly, and we do

828
00:41:22,994 --> 00:41:25,234
Speaker 1: on this show as well. Let's not be disingenuous about it.

829
00:41:25,274 --> 00:41:28,874
Speaker 1: But why I found this piece really refreshing is because

830
00:41:29,034 --> 00:41:32,794
Speaker 1: it made me feel like I'm not a freak for

831
00:41:32,914 --> 00:41:36,274
Speaker 1: not buying into this. And I know that sounds funny

832
00:41:36,354 --> 00:41:41,114
Speaker 1: because it's becoming like unusual in my impression to not

833
00:41:41,194 --> 00:41:44,594
Speaker 1: opt into this game. So I appreciated that she was like, oh,

834
00:41:44,634 --> 00:41:47,514
Speaker 1: the writer said, this is not normal. You don't have

835
00:41:47,634 --> 00:41:49,634
Speaker 1: to do this. And in fact, it's an arms race

836
00:41:49,674 --> 00:41:53,514
Speaker 1: that women will never win because the only beauty standard

837
00:41:53,754 --> 00:41:57,794
Speaker 1: that remains the same from generation to generation is youth,

838
00:41:58,154 --> 00:42:02,114
Speaker 1: actual youth, not simulated youth, and beauty standards other than

839
00:42:02,154 --> 00:42:04,754
Speaker 1: youth change all the time. For instance, we started this

840
00:42:04,834 --> 00:42:09,194
Speaker 1: by talking about droopy eyelids. Phrase droopy island seems insane,

841
00:42:09,274 --> 00:42:11,754
Speaker 1: but it is out there. I want to point out

842
00:42:11,794 --> 00:42:16,554
Speaker 1: that Sydney Sweeney, Marilyn Monroe, Charlotte Rampling, all these women

843
00:42:16,914 --> 00:42:22,314
Speaker 1: have famously quote unquote droopy islands bed droomise. In another

844
00:42:22,474 --> 00:42:25,913
Speaker 1: era this was beddroomies, but now they're droopy. So the

845
00:42:25,954 --> 00:42:28,794
Speaker 1: point is you can't win, and I found that really refreshing.

846
00:42:29,074 --> 00:42:31,314
Speaker 2: Here's something though, that I want to ask you as

847
00:42:31,354 --> 00:42:33,433
Speaker 2: you go to the next point, Jesse, is that the

848
00:42:33,514 --> 00:42:36,114
Speaker 2: thing is and this is the point of the woman's article. Really,

849
00:42:36,554 --> 00:42:39,354
Speaker 2: So Australia has one of the biggest updates of cosmetic

850
00:42:39,394 --> 00:42:42,074
Speaker 2: procedures per capita in the world, big in the US,

851
00:42:42,274 --> 00:42:45,433
Speaker 2: so the most recent stats, and they do come from

852
00:42:45,474 --> 00:42:49,154
Speaker 2: a medical and cosmetic surgical institute, but the most recent

853
00:42:49,194 --> 00:42:52,913
Speaker 2: stats suggest that twenty two percent of Australians have had

854
00:42:52,914 --> 00:42:56,834
Speaker 2: a cosmetic procedure, and that twenty five percent of millennials have,

855
00:42:57,354 --> 00:42:59,834
Speaker 2: and that something like thirty eight percent would like to

856
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:02,554
Speaker 2: or planning to in the next ten years. She's just

857
00:43:02,674 --> 00:43:06,274
Speaker 2: so internalized agism for all the reasons you just said, Amelia,

858
00:43:06,394 --> 00:43:09,234
Speaker 2: that she looks in the mirror, goes, I don't really

859
00:43:09,234 --> 00:43:11,873
Speaker 2: recognize that person. I know how we all feel and

860
00:43:11,914 --> 00:43:15,873
Speaker 2: mock women who are looking older. So She's right, we

861
00:43:16,034 --> 00:43:18,754
Speaker 2: are all being led down this road is the cure

862
00:43:18,834 --> 00:43:22,073
Speaker 2: for it, though, to point out and mock the women

863
00:43:22,074 --> 00:43:24,314
Speaker 2: I were doing that, And that's where I think we

864
00:43:24,354 --> 00:43:25,794
Speaker 2: are always led back to.

865
00:43:25,994 --> 00:43:27,913
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what I hate. And I also hate

866
00:43:27,914 --> 00:43:31,194
Speaker 3: when we get to and they look ugly anyway, or

867
00:43:31,234 --> 00:43:33,274
Speaker 3: they look ugly in a new way, which.

868
00:43:33,034 --> 00:43:35,754
Speaker 1: Is what's implied by the author's choice of these really

869
00:43:35,834 --> 00:43:38,874
Speaker 1: startling images of Miley Cyrus to go with the piece.

870
00:43:38,954 --> 00:43:42,514
Speaker 1: The photos are not what you would call conventionally attractive.

871
00:43:42,834 --> 00:43:45,514
Speaker 1: They stop you in your tracks, they stop you scrolling.

872
00:43:45,594 --> 00:43:48,754
Speaker 1: She looks really undernourished in them in a way that

873
00:43:48,834 --> 00:43:51,594
Speaker 1: is alarming. So the author knew what she was doing

874
00:43:51,634 --> 00:43:53,434
Speaker 1: by drawing us in with those photos.

875
00:43:53,554 --> 00:43:56,354
Speaker 3: Yes, And she says it explicitly about some people in

876
00:43:56,394 --> 00:43:58,354
Speaker 3: the public eye, and it's like, you did all of

877
00:43:58,354 --> 00:44:01,554
Speaker 3: this and you still don't look good, which is almost

878
00:44:02,034 --> 00:44:05,834
Speaker 3: the inevitable treadmill of like you'll get a little bit

879
00:44:05,954 --> 00:44:09,114
Speaker 3: and then you'll get so taken down this and then

880
00:44:09,154 --> 00:44:11,913
Speaker 3: guess what, the filler's going to be out of date

881
00:44:12,354 --> 00:44:14,553
Speaker 3: and there's going to be a new trend in and

882
00:44:15,074 --> 00:44:18,114
Speaker 3: you're not going to be beautiful by those standards. But Holly,

883
00:44:18,194 --> 00:44:21,114
Speaker 3: you said something about like women doing those procedures to

884
00:44:21,194 --> 00:44:23,993
Speaker 3: kind of keep their status. And one thing I found.

885
00:44:24,034 --> 00:44:25,514
Speaker 3: I talked about this at the live show, and I

886
00:44:25,514 --> 00:44:29,073
Speaker 3: haven't been comfortable talking about it on this show for a.

887
00:44:28,754 --> 00:44:29,634
Speaker 4: Myriad of reasons.

888
00:44:29,634 --> 00:44:33,074
Speaker 3: But I after I had Luna and I was feeling

889
00:44:33,194 --> 00:44:36,754
Speaker 3: you know, haggard and doing TV and doing this and

890
00:44:36,834 --> 00:44:40,434
Speaker 3: video and blah blah blah, I had anti wrinkle injections.

891
00:44:40,434 --> 00:44:42,354
Speaker 3: And before I go into it is like to speak

892
00:44:42,354 --> 00:44:45,234
Speaker 3: to your doctor, I'm not recommending this procedure. This was

893
00:44:45,274 --> 00:44:47,994
Speaker 3: just my experience and that, like it sounds like a

894
00:44:47,994 --> 00:44:49,873
Speaker 3: big thing to say, to say betrayed my values. But

895
00:44:49,914 --> 00:44:52,274
Speaker 3: I kind of always went I'm not going to do it, and.

896
00:44:52,194 --> 00:44:54,513
Speaker 4: Then one day I just went, screw it. I want

897
00:44:54,514 --> 00:44:55,354
Speaker 4: to have more kids.

898
00:44:55,394 --> 00:44:57,314
Speaker 3: There's a moment in my life where I can get

899
00:44:57,674 --> 00:44:58,873
Speaker 3: anti wrinkle injections.

900
00:44:58,914 --> 00:44:59,953
Speaker 4: And I went and did it.

901
00:45:00,234 --> 00:45:02,594
Speaker 3: I didn't do it for status. What I did it

902
00:45:02,674 --> 00:45:05,913
Speaker 3: for was to turn the voice off, was to.

903
00:45:05,834 --> 00:45:09,034
Speaker 4: Turn the inner monologue.

904
00:45:08,034 --> 00:45:09,873
Speaker 3: That every day it's going look at the lines on

905
00:45:09,914 --> 00:45:11,194
Speaker 3: your feat, look at the lines on your froat. And

906
00:45:11,234 --> 00:45:14,514
Speaker 3: I thought, if I could quieten that, maybe my brain

907
00:45:14,594 --> 00:45:17,474
Speaker 3: could think about other, bigger, more important things and it

908
00:45:17,514 --> 00:45:18,474
Speaker 3: would be freeing.

909
00:45:18,674 --> 00:45:20,953
Speaker 4: And I thought that getting that would turn it off.

910
00:45:21,354 --> 00:45:22,434
Speaker 4: It didn't.

911
00:45:22,834 --> 00:45:25,874
Speaker 3: In fact, it made me more obsessed with my appearance.

912
00:45:25,874 --> 00:45:27,714
Speaker 3: I've never looked in the mirror so much. I didn't

913
00:45:27,754 --> 00:45:29,914
Speaker 3: think it looked right. I thought it looked all uneven.

914
00:45:29,994 --> 00:45:33,594
Speaker 3: I felt claustrophobic in my own face. I didn't feel

915
00:45:33,634 --> 00:45:35,913
Speaker 3: like myself. I couldn't emote all of these things, and

916
00:45:35,954 --> 00:45:37,994
Speaker 3: I went, I hate it. I'm not doing it again.

917
00:45:38,114 --> 00:45:40,794
Speaker 3: Maybe it does turn off the monologue, but it's like

918
00:45:40,834 --> 00:45:43,354
Speaker 3: the issue is that in a monologue.

919
00:45:42,834 --> 00:45:46,473
Speaker 1: And of course individual women's experiences with these procedures may vary.

920
00:45:46,514 --> 00:45:48,953
Speaker 1: But one thing that I really wanted to highlight from

921
00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:52,433
Speaker 1: the essay is that it points to empirical evidence that

922
00:45:52,514 --> 00:45:55,873
Speaker 1: shows that cosmetic work does not improve your long term happiness,

923
00:45:55,914 --> 00:45:59,834
Speaker 1: and it actually increases Obviously, again, this is population wide

924
00:46:00,114 --> 00:46:03,873
Speaker 1: increases symptoms of depression and anxiety. So we really are

925
00:46:03,874 --> 00:46:05,034
Speaker 1: in a treadmill.

926
00:46:04,674 --> 00:46:07,954
Speaker 3: And even things like sexual dysfunction or eating disorders, because

927
00:46:07,954 --> 00:46:11,194
Speaker 3: it's like you're not in touch with how you feel

928
00:46:11,274 --> 00:46:13,834
Speaker 3: or what you want. It's it's this kind of perpetuating

929
00:46:13,874 --> 00:46:16,554
Speaker 3: the self objectifying narrative.

930
00:46:16,994 --> 00:46:19,634
Speaker 2: I get all that so much, and I am al

931
00:46:19,674 --> 00:46:22,473
Speaker 2: so you know, because of our jobs, we're looking at

932
00:46:22,474 --> 00:46:24,594
Speaker 2: our face is probably more than the average person because

933
00:46:24,594 --> 00:46:28,114
Speaker 2: we're on camera as the gen xer at the table.

934
00:46:28,754 --> 00:46:31,234
Speaker 2: I do struggle all the time in that I'm like,

935
00:46:31,314 --> 00:46:34,194
Speaker 2: look at my neckline, look at my look. Yeah, so

936
00:46:34,394 --> 00:46:37,554
Speaker 2: the noise I so relate to it, Jesse. But the

937
00:46:37,674 --> 00:46:41,914
Speaker 2: problem that I have is still because I also genuinely

938
00:46:41,994 --> 00:46:44,194
Speaker 2: do not judge women who are doing whatever they're doing,

939
00:46:44,234 --> 00:46:46,354
Speaker 2: because I just think we are all in this game

940
00:46:46,354 --> 00:46:47,274
Speaker 2: that we're talking.

941
00:46:47,034 --> 00:46:49,714
Speaker 4: About, and we're all playing it to a different degree.

942
00:46:49,754 --> 00:46:52,154
Speaker 2: And I think that the problem with as I said,

943
00:46:52,194 --> 00:46:55,314
Speaker 2: the problem with this essay and this kind of narrative

944
00:46:55,514 --> 00:46:58,754
Speaker 2: is it wants us to go back to picking women's faces,

945
00:46:58,794 --> 00:47:03,034
Speaker 2: our own and others, without shame, without fear or favor

946
00:47:03,114 --> 00:47:06,154
Speaker 2: like which I think. I don't think that's the answer.

947
00:47:06,194 --> 00:47:09,074
Speaker 2: I actually think the answer is less attention less talk

948
00:47:09,154 --> 00:47:11,794
Speaker 2: about it. Less. The fact that any woman steps into

949
00:47:11,794 --> 00:47:13,914
Speaker 2: the public arena, whether it's on a TV show or

950
00:47:14,714 --> 00:47:17,074
Speaker 2: in politics or whatever, that the first thing we all

951
00:47:17,114 --> 00:47:19,474
Speaker 2: talk about is her face and what she's done to it.

952
00:47:19,554 --> 00:47:22,154
Speaker 2: I think that would actually be real progress.

953
00:47:22,514 --> 00:47:23,953
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm with you. I think we talk

954
00:47:23,994 --> 00:47:24,714
Speaker 4: about it too much.

955
00:47:25,554 --> 00:47:28,034
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to you out louders for listening

956
00:47:28,114 --> 00:47:30,513
Speaker 2: to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting

957
00:47:30,554 --> 00:47:33,834
Speaker 2: it together. Remember you can always watch us on YouTube.

958
00:47:33,914 --> 00:47:36,274
Speaker 2: But we're going to be back in your ears tomorrow, Jesse.

959
00:47:36,114 --> 00:47:39,154
Speaker 1: Before we go, Yeah, you know how out Loud sets

960
00:47:39,154 --> 00:47:41,034
Speaker 1: you up for the week. Well that's what our listeners

961
00:47:41,074 --> 00:47:43,834
Speaker 1: tell us. Yeah, well now they have something to get

962
00:47:43,914 --> 00:47:45,474
Speaker 1: them through the weekend too, and it's parenting.

963
00:47:45,714 --> 00:47:47,234
Speaker 4: I love my parenting out Loud.

964
00:47:47,314 --> 00:47:49,953
Speaker 3: You Stacey Hicks, Monic Bully, But I hear that there's

965
00:47:49,954 --> 00:47:50,593
Speaker 3: a special guest.

966
00:47:50,874 --> 00:47:54,274
Speaker 1: Special guest this week one Luca Levine, dad of one,

967
00:47:54,394 --> 00:47:57,354
Speaker 1: father to be of twins. Was he very nervous.

968
00:47:57,674 --> 00:47:59,994
Speaker 3: He was, and he asked me how to pitch. He

969
00:48:00,874 --> 00:48:04,393
Speaker 3: had no idea, like where to start. But I love

970
00:48:04,474 --> 00:48:06,554
Speaker 3: this idea. I'm encouraging him to.

971
00:48:06,474 --> 00:48:08,594
Speaker 4: Become a parent. I would love that because I feel

972
00:48:08,634 --> 00:48:10,994
Speaker 4: like it's something I could outsource. And I'm like, maybe

973
00:48:11,474 --> 00:48:13,034
Speaker 4: you could like be like.

974
00:48:13,154 --> 00:48:13,914
Speaker 2: The primary parent.

975
00:48:15,114 --> 00:48:16,594
Speaker 4: Let's just go with it.

976
00:48:17,034 --> 00:48:20,314
Speaker 3: But look, he's a great dad and he has lots

977
00:48:20,354 --> 00:48:21,954
Speaker 3: of wisdom and lots of insights.

978
00:48:21,994 --> 00:48:25,194
Speaker 1: I also just love it's very parenting out Loud to

979
00:48:25,234 --> 00:48:28,074
Speaker 1: say you know what. We need to get a guy's

980
00:48:28,154 --> 00:48:31,393
Speaker 1: perspective on things too, exactly. It's not meant to be

981
00:48:31,554 --> 00:48:33,674
Speaker 1: like your everyday regular parenting show.

982
00:48:33,754 --> 00:48:36,114
Speaker 3: It's meant to be a little bit more out of

983
00:48:36,154 --> 00:48:38,674
Speaker 3: the box. And quotas are important. We believe in quotas,

984
00:48:38,954 --> 00:48:39,873
Speaker 3: so we did need to.

985
00:48:41,474 --> 00:48:43,074
Speaker 1: So look, I'll just tell you quickly what's on the

986
00:48:43,074 --> 00:48:44,993
Speaker 1: show because it sounds like a great lineup. You taught

987
00:48:45,074 --> 00:48:46,074
Speaker 1: him well on pitching.

988
00:48:46,354 --> 00:48:48,594
Speaker 3: I don't know what that you guys talk about yet though,

989
00:48:48,634 --> 00:48:49,154
Speaker 3: but what is it?

990
00:48:49,154 --> 00:48:52,594
Speaker 1: Well, apparently Kinetic sand has been canceled. Oh yes, yes,

991
00:48:52,834 --> 00:48:56,194
Speaker 1: there's a trend that's fighting against Black Friday sales and

992
00:48:56,234 --> 00:48:58,594
Speaker 1: apparently it's very delightful, which is good because I'm so

993
00:48:58,714 --> 00:49:01,754
Speaker 1: not into Black Friday sales now I need an antidote.

994
00:49:01,874 --> 00:49:05,274
Speaker 1: And also, are you doing nappy changes mindfully? Is this

995
00:49:05,434 --> 00:49:09,634
Speaker 1: something that Luca makes you do like mindful nappy changes? Anyway,

996
00:49:09,634 --> 00:49:11,354
Speaker 1: he's going to tell us all about it on the shows.

997
00:49:11,394 --> 00:49:12,554
Speaker 4: Okay, I love it here.

998
00:49:13,074 --> 00:49:15,634
Speaker 1: So if you love out Loud, this is your weekend

999
00:49:15,674 --> 00:49:18,314
Speaker 1: fixed search parenting out Loud and hit follow.

1000
00:49:29,434 --> 00:49:32,074
Speaker 4: Is it ten years today?

1001
00:49:33,234 --> 00:49:33,953
Speaker 2: Shut up.

1002
00:49:35,474 --> 00:49:43,154
Speaker 1: Is to you, hippy, that's astir of my line.

1003
00:49:45,474 --> 00:49:48,634
Speaker 4: Ten years, A lot's happened, A lot's.

1004
00:49:48,354 --> 00:49:50,913
Speaker 2: Happened, A lot happen happened, Jesse ste.

1005
00:49:51,114 --> 00:49:53,234
Speaker 4: Oh, my goodness, who would.

1006
00:49:52,994 --> 00:49:56,473
Speaker 2: Have thought as a listener to out Loud who you

1007
00:49:56,514 --> 00:49:58,034
Speaker 2: also were a listener to out Loud?

1008
00:49:58,074 --> 00:49:59,714
Speaker 1: Walk and you were the boss ab out Loud walking

1009
00:49:59,754 --> 00:50:02,074
Speaker 1: in the door that day with no shoes.

1010
00:50:02,474 --> 00:50:05,194
Speaker 4: No, exactly right. I had shoes on, but I wasn't

1011
00:50:05,234 --> 00:50:07,314
Speaker 4: dressed appropriately. You were.

1012
00:50:07,354 --> 00:50:07,553
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1013
00:50:07,714 --> 00:50:10,194
Speaker 3: And I had a meeting with you and and her

1014
00:50:10,274 --> 00:50:13,354
Speaker 3: and she was good cop, Hollywood, good cop. You were

1015
00:50:13,394 --> 00:50:14,274
Speaker 3: just chaos.

1016
00:50:14,474 --> 00:50:18,393
Speaker 2: Yeah, No one knew and so much changed. And I

1017
00:50:18,514 --> 00:50:21,634
Speaker 2: just knew that one day you'd be pushing some of

1018
00:50:21,674 --> 00:50:22,314
Speaker 2: my DNA.

1019
00:50:22,914 --> 00:50:25,154
Speaker 4: Yeah, I knew that efficiently.

1020
00:50:25,234 --> 00:50:26,714
Speaker 1: No, who would have known you?

1021
00:50:26,834 --> 00:50:32,913
Speaker 4: Just that's the most ever that I would have no idea?

1022
00:50:32,994 --> 00:50:33,473
Speaker 2: What it's two?

1023
00:50:33,874 --> 00:50:35,594
Speaker 1: And everyone's kept saying to me, what shoud we get

1024
00:50:35,674 --> 00:50:37,154
Speaker 1: Jesse for a present? What should we get it for

1025
00:50:37,154 --> 00:50:38,794
Speaker 1: a ten year president? I'm I don't know. She doesn't

1026
00:50:38,874 --> 00:50:39,394
Speaker 1: like stuff.

1027
00:50:40,194 --> 00:50:40,994
Speaker 4: That's true.

1028
00:50:42,394 --> 00:50:42,994
Speaker 1: It's true.

1029
00:50:47,794 --> 00:50:50,754
Speaker 3: Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land

1030
00:50:50,794 --> 00:50:52,714
Speaker 3: on which we have recorded this podcast