Speaker 1: The inner criticism that you have to endure day in
Speaker 1: day out, that inner bully that's just living rent and
Speaker 1: free in your mind. It takes such a huge toll.
Speaker 1: So it's no perfectionism. Yeah, it's harmful, not harmless.
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm a shiny Dante and this is but are
Speaker 2: you happy? Perfectionism is one of those words we throw
Speaker 2: around a lot. We tend to picture someone who's just
Speaker 2: really driven, really organized, and maybe a bit impressive, but
Speaker 2: that's not quite the full story. Perfectionism is something much
Speaker 2: deeper and much tougher to live with. It's a multi
Speaker 2: dimensional personality style where you set standards that are often unrealistic,
Speaker 2: sometimes impossible, and tie your self worth tightly to how
Speaker 2: well you can meet them. And when you don't, the
Speaker 2: self criticism can be relentless, so it's not just about
Speaker 2: wanting to do well, and mistakes don't just feel uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: they can feel like personal failure. And to unpack all
Speaker 2: of this, I'm joined by Anita Shimans, a clinical psychologist
Speaker 2: at in Light Psychology here in Sydney and someone who
Speaker 2: works closely with people navigating perfectionism every day. In this conversation,
Speaker 2: we get into what Perfectionism actually is beyond the buzzword,
Speaker 2: the beliefs that keep people stuck in it, and how
Speaker 2: it shows up in real life, from work to relationships
Speaker 2: to the way we talk to ourselves, and importantly, we
Speaker 2: talk about what helps how to reframe mistakes, loosen those
Speaker 2: rigid standards, and build goals that are actually sustainable. It's thoughtful,
Speaker 2: it's practical. It might just change the way you see yourself.
Speaker 2: Here's our conversation. Hi, Anita, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us for this conversation. I am very excited to
Speaker 2: unpack this topic, so am I Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because it is a very latable topic,
Speaker 2: and I kind of just want to start off there,
Speaker 2: like what exactly is perfectionism from a psychological perspective, and
Speaker 2: how do you distinguish between the healthy striving for excellence
Speaker 2: and the more harmful kind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a good question because we use perfectionism
Speaker 1: in everyday language. Is something that's actually quite good, you know,
Speaker 1: something that helps to achieve things. But from a psychological perspective,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a different thing. So healthy striving and
Speaker 1: striving for excellence is a great thing, right, Getting good
Speaker 1: achievements and high standards, But perfectionism is more about when
Speaker 1: there's such a deep, underlying fear of failure and not
Speaker 1: being good enough. So the motivation is completely different. It's
Speaker 1: about trying to not feel less than and so there's
Speaker 1: a huge amount of pressure. So it's actually not a
Speaker 1: very positive thing internally at all.
Speaker 2: So it's like, is perfectionism Is it kind of essentially
Speaker 2: like it's a behavior we do to like stay safe
Speaker 2: or like if you had to put a definition.
Speaker 1: To it, Yeah, that's a really good description. It is
Speaker 1: kind of a strategy that develops because there's an underlying
Speaker 1: sense of my worth is very much tied to my performance.
Speaker 1: And so if my whole sense of worth and achievement
Speaker 1: identity is attached to what I do, then I better
Speaker 1: do that perfectly because otherwise I'm a failure. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: it becomes a strategy to deal with this underlying sense
Speaker 1: of I'm just not enough.
Speaker 2: Because like I'm sure people have clicked into this episode
Speaker 2: obviously might be relating to perfectionism in some way. Can
Speaker 2: you share some common signs that someone might be struggling
Speaker 2: with perfectionism without realizing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one. Because we think about perfectionism
Speaker 1: as like they've nailed it, they're on top of everyday detail.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can look like that, and usually there's a
Speaker 1: lot of over preparation and lots of time and energy
Speaker 1: that's gone into what you can see on the outside.
Speaker 1: It might look effortless from the outside, but it was
Speaker 1: not getting there. But it can also finally look really different.
Speaker 1: So you can see people from the outside feel like
Speaker 1: they're not doing much at all, and they're sort of
Speaker 1: maybe even seem lazy, or they seem like they're, yeah,
Speaker 1: just not achieving much. But actually it's the same underlying mechanism.
Speaker 1: It's just that that fear is so paralyzing, and the
Speaker 1: fear of trying and then not being enough is so
Speaker 1: scary that it's it keeps you entirely stuck. So from
Speaker 1: the outside it might look like on the one hand,
Speaker 1: achieving everything or achieving nothing, but the underlying mechanism is
Speaker 1: the same.
Speaker 2: So I know, like we've spoken a bit about perfectionism,
Speaker 2: and you know, it can sound like this really generic term,
Speaker 2: like do you feel like there's different types of perfectionism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good point. There are heward and fled
Speaker 1: to researchers that kind of came up with distinguishing between
Speaker 1: three types. The one that we talk about most often
Speaker 1: is the kind of the internalized perfectionism or the self
Speaker 1: directed perfectionism, so that I really feel that my worth
Speaker 1: is very strongly linked to my performance, and there's a
Speaker 1: deep underlying fear of failure and a deep underlying fear
Speaker 1: of not being good enough, and so I have to
Speaker 1: try and strive and strive to you know, sort of
Speaker 1: fix that perceived flow. So that's what we often talk
Speaker 1: about when we think about perfectionism. But there are also
Speaker 1: two other kind of types. One is more directed at others.
Speaker 1: So it might be a really kind of critical parent,
Speaker 1: for instance, who expects their child to be perfect, or
Speaker 1: it might be someone in a relationship who doesn't leave
Speaker 1: a lot of room for mistakes from their partners and
Speaker 1: kind of expect to nail it in every area at
Speaker 1: all times. And you can see how those might create
Speaker 1: different types of issues. And then a third type would
Speaker 1: be where it's what we call socially prescribed perfectionism. So
Speaker 1: when working with teenagers, how they're so aware they might
Speaker 1: not even have that internal pressure as much, but they
Speaker 1: feel like it's really put on them from outside. So
Speaker 1: you have to get perfect, you know, perfect or on
Speaker 1: HC so that you can get into your desired university program.
Speaker 1: And also the parents are expecting this. And then also
Speaker 1: if you fail as one thing, then your whole life trajectories,
Speaker 1: you know off. So yeah, it's that kind of external
Speaker 1: pressure that's being placed on you. Sometimes these all come together,
Speaker 1: so you might have all three of them, or there
Speaker 1: might be some that are a little bit more prevalent
Speaker 1: prevalent than others. So also with the socially prescribed, it
Speaker 1: might be that I just feel like I need to
Speaker 1: keep up appearances so that I appear perfect. So social
Speaker 1: media again comes into play there where maybe otherwise I'm
Speaker 1: okay to you know, to sort of be in my
Speaker 1: track pants and you know, my house looks a mess.
Speaker 1: But then I'm going to because I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: going to be charged. I don't have that internal pressure,
Speaker 1: but I have that external pressure to make things look perfect.
Speaker 2: I think it's really cool that you're bringing awareness to
Speaker 2: this because it's so true. There's like that classic archetype
Speaker 2: of the perfectionists, the over chiever getting out there doing
Speaker 2: it perfectly, and then it's great to shine a light
Speaker 2: on that kind of lazy perfectionist archetype where that the
Speaker 2: same stuff is happening below the surface, which you know
Speaker 2: it's hard because you can't tell right it's so invisible.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And then that kind of invites the very
Speaker 1: criticism that keeps the perfectionism going. So why can't you
Speaker 1: just get started? Why can't you just do this thing
Speaker 1: internally and externally? Those sorts of pressures kind of layer
Speaker 1: on top and somebody says, I'm a procrastinator. We kind
Speaker 1: of think about that as being lazy and they can't
Speaker 1: really get their stuff together, but actually they probably are
Speaker 1: experiencing a lot of inner turmoil and that's where the
Speaker 1: stockness comes from.
Speaker 3: So why do we want to be perfect?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Where where does it all come from?
Speaker 1: With perfectionism, I would say the nature element is that
Speaker 1: somebody might be born with a bit more a higher
Speaker 1: level of conscientiousness and attention to detail and sensitivity. But
Speaker 1: with perfectionism there is a huge nurture element, So a
Speaker 1: huge element of how we're brought up, how we're parented,
Speaker 1: what environment we're born into that can either make us
Speaker 1: more likely or less likely to be perfectionistic.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because like I'm thinking about I mean, it's
Speaker 2: so funny because I feel like I've got this inner
Speaker 2: reflection process going on of like the times when I
Speaker 2: was younger, or even when I think about schools. Right,
Speaker 2: Like it perpetuates this idea of perfectionism because it's like
Speaker 2: you get rewarded if your uniform's perfect, and you know
Speaker 2: you're doing amazing at school, at sport, and it's a
Speaker 2: lot and I feel like, I know, for me, we're
Speaker 2: turning this into a therapy session. But like I did
Speaker 2: feel like I needed to be perfect because the outside
Speaker 2: world rewards that.
Speaker 3: I want to feel safe, I want to belong.
Speaker 1: Indeed, you raise a really good point that it's not
Speaker 1: just you know, an internal process or even within family,
Speaker 1: it's the whole society is set up to really kind
Speaker 1: of reward very very high standards and linking performance to work. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, what's my second question to your first question
Speaker 1: is what's your name? And second question will be what
Speaker 1: do you do try? So it's so closely linked to performance.
Speaker 1: And then in kind of high achieving areas or affluent
Speaker 1: areas where private schools and so on, literally everything is
Speaker 1: geared to perfection really, so, like you said, uniforms, performance,
Speaker 1: every metric kind of gears to having to be a
Speaker 1: certain way.
Speaker 2: I was listening to a podcast recently and a woman
Speaker 2: was kind of sharing about her experiences with perfectionism, and
Speaker 2: she was talking about when she grew up, she felt
Speaker 2: like her mum would always criticize her when she made
Speaker 2: a mistake, so she felt like she needed to be
Speaker 2: that good girl archetype. So my question is what kind
Speaker 2: of like long term impacts does this have on someone.
Speaker 1: These things developed really early on, and then the pressures
Speaker 1: might be gone, so she might not have somebody in
Speaker 1: her life anymore. That is setting really high expectations on her,
Speaker 1: expectations for her not to make any mistakes. But these
Speaker 1: patterns are so entrenched now that she approaches life from
Speaker 1: this perspective of I have to be a very particular way.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of regal room, and outside of that,
Speaker 1: I lose acceptance or even I lose worth. And so
Speaker 1: if you know parents who have quite a rigid expectation
Speaker 1: of how a child has to be, that is really
Speaker 1: internalized and then perpetuated throughout life. So it is difficult
Speaker 1: to kind of relinquish and separate worth from achievement. And
Speaker 1: I think you also touch on maybe like a gendered element.
Speaker 1: There is a little bit of that as well. Research
Speaker 1: shows that women are a little bit more likely to
Speaker 1: develop perfectionism than men. I think it is evening out
Speaker 1: a little bit because there are lots of pressures put
Speaker 1: on men these days as well. There's more body dysmorphee
Speaker 1: and in men as well. But traditionally, you know, women
Speaker 1: were expected to be a very particular way, and if
Speaker 1: you make certain mistakes, you lose your worth and you'll
Speaker 1: place in society, and so it created a lot of
Speaker 1: internal pressure. And now as well, you know, we have
Speaker 1: to be perfect at our careers. We also have to
Speaker 1: be perfect, we have to have kids, and then when
Speaker 1: we do have kids, has to be perfect. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure and there's a lot of visibility
Speaker 1: as well of comparison in all these areas. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there is a bit of a gender element there too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about the gender element too,
Speaker 2: because I feel like, you know, a lot of my
Speaker 2: background's been working with teenage girls and young women for
Speaker 2: the last ten years, and I feel like it's exactly.
Speaker 2: We're having the same conversations. It's not like, oh, I
Speaker 2: need to be perfect at just school, I need to
Speaker 2: have the perfect lifestyle. You know, we talk about social media,
Speaker 2: they compare themselves. They know that it's not a real reality,
Speaker 2: but we still feel and they still feel this expectation
Speaker 2: to fit into this perfect narrative that is just not achievable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, because we might know logically that that's curated,
Speaker 1: we're still bombarded with this you know, perfectly seeming life
Speaker 1: of others twenty four seven or as often as we're
Speaker 1: scrowling on Instagram, and so perfectionism might have, you know,
Speaker 1: historically been more in the realm of academia work, but
Speaker 1: it's now infiltrated all these other areas of life as well, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, yeah, looks or what my home's supposed to
Speaker 1: look like, or what relationships are supposed to be. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's now there's nothing that's safe from having that kind
Speaker 1: of perfectionism pressure on it now with social media.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I feel like social media has just amplified
Speaker 2: all the problems that we already we have to think.
Speaker 1: So yeah, which is so much a good idea, but no, Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Literally, it's like amplifying the wrong things. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: agreed with perfectionism. And it's really great because I love
Speaker 2: that you're starting to bring some examples to this conversation
Speaker 2: around what it can look like. Just anyone that's tuning
Speaker 2: in that is wondering, Oh my gosh, am I perfectionists?
Speaker 2: Like what how does it show up in let's say,
Speaker 2: relationships or at work or even parenting.
Speaker 1: We almost have to unpack with the different types because
Speaker 1: it can look really different. So let's start with the
Speaker 1: kind of internal perfectionism how that shows up in relationships.
Speaker 1: So if I can't show you any of my flaws,
Speaker 1: because I feel like if I show you any of
Speaker 1: my imperfections you will immediately cost me as unworthy, then
Speaker 1: I'm going to be quite guarded and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to really show you a lot of what I feel
Speaker 1: like our flaws. Are you going to feel particularly connected
Speaker 1: to me when you see only a sliver of who
Speaker 1: I am?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Definitely not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd be on God be like, yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: sure about this moment?
Speaker 1: Very authentic? Yeah, exactly. So it's a real barrier to
Speaker 1: connection because vulnerability is about flaws, is about being honest
Speaker 1: about things that you know, I'm scared about and so on,
Speaker 1: and when I protect all of that because I'm so
Speaker 1: fearful of showing that side, Yeah, it's going to be
Speaker 1: a barrier to us feeling connected. Whereas, for instance, with
Speaker 1: the other directed perfectionism, if I'm placing unrelenting standards on
Speaker 1: you at all times and kind of you know, criticizing
Speaker 1: you when you fall short, how are you going to
Speaker 1: feel towards me?
Speaker 2: I will feel quite trapped. I'll be like, oh wow,
Speaker 2: anything that I do, I'm getting it wrong. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I would feel quite disempowered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So in either case, it's it's a real
Speaker 1: barrier to connection socially prescribed as similar. So if I
Speaker 1: expect a lot of criticism from you, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be quite selective with what I show you, and again
Speaker 1: that's not very authentic and therefore not so good for connection.
Speaker 1: So that's in the relationship. Well yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's really good. Okay, So that's relationship. How about work?
Speaker 2: How does it look like at work?
Speaker 1: At work, it does really create intense, intense pressure. So
Speaker 1: it might be that you're just going above and beyond
Speaker 1: to the point where it's taking such a toll on
Speaker 1: you that not only your mental health suffers, but eventually
Speaker 1: even your work suffers. So we know that those high
Speaker 1: expectations and high standards can kind of get you so far,
Speaker 1: but then as of a certain point, it actually becomes
Speaker 1: more of a hindrance than a help. So it can
Speaker 1: actually really get in the way of you doing work.
Speaker 1: So if you're going to spend two hours perfecting an email,
Speaker 1: it's going to you know, create a long to do
Speaker 1: list of things that you haven't gotten to that day,
Speaker 1: because you know, you filed the wordings for that long
Speaker 1: other directed. So if you're if you've got, for instance,
Speaker 1: people working under you and you're just you know, cracking
Speaker 1: the whip and you expect perfection, you can have a
Speaker 1: really disharmonious team and high turnover and things like that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it can it can impact work as well.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with a Nita after this short break, like,
Speaker 2: what I'm curious about is like what are we getting
Speaker 2: out of being perfect? You know, because there's so much
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: It's difficult to let go of the perfectionism if I
Speaker 1: feel that's the only thing that's keeping me safe, that
Speaker 1: makes things predictable and that keeps me accepted by others.
Speaker 1: If I attach all of that to perfectionism, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be really reluctant to let that go.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When we do, though, we learn that a lot of
Speaker 1: different things happen than we would expect, so we actually
Speaker 1: start becoming more creative, more free, more authentic, and lots
Speaker 1: of positive things kind of or knock on effects of that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, holding on to it in reality doesn't give
Speaker 1: us a whole lot of positives. But first we need
Speaker 1: to try and start disentangling how much meaning we're attaching
Speaker 1: to perfectionism before we can let it go.
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting because I think the reality
Speaker 2: of the world that we're in there is so much uncertainty,
Speaker 2: like we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, like,
Speaker 2: and I think I know for me, it's this constant
Speaker 2: battle because I'm like, oh, I need to learn to
Speaker 2: let go, but this is what feels safe and comfy,
Speaker 2: and I know this so well. But I think it's
Speaker 2: just it's a constant letting go, which is hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you raise such an important point with so
Speaker 1: much uncertainty, you know, COVID definitely brought that up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now you know wars and who knows, the world orders
Speaker 1: changing and it's scary, and so when there's a lot
Speaker 1: of unpredictability, we can kind of, you know, find escape
Speaker 1: in trying to control what we can control very perfectly.
Speaker 1: And so that kind of links to another factor in
Speaker 1: childhood that can really create a vulnerability to become a perfectionist,
Speaker 1: which is trauma and chaotic upbringing. So when there's chaos
Speaker 1: around us and when there's unpredictability, we're going to try
Speaker 1: and perfect the little bit that we have some control over.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I know that you were starting to unpack
Speaker 2: this a little bit. But what are the pros and
Speaker 2: cons of remaining a perfectionist?
Speaker 1: I would say the pros are really limited of remaining
Speaker 1: a perfectionist because of just because of the really intense
Speaker 1: toll it takes and it's not a sustainable strategy. And
Speaker 1: so the pros could be that, you know, there is
Speaker 1: a level of drive that it creates. The myth is
Speaker 1: that we need that to have that drive. We can
Speaker 1: replace that with value driven drive and suddenly becomes the
Speaker 1: journey becomes enjoyable instead of kind of I have this
Speaker 1: feared outcome that I need to get to. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the pros and cons. The cons are outweigh the pros
Speaker 1: by a lot, and it's arguable if there are even
Speaker 1: any prose to holding onto that kind of extreme perfectionism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the cons are you know, but there's all kinds
Speaker 1: of cons. But there's serious cons as well, where they
Speaker 1: can take a big toll on our mental health. There
Speaker 1: are many mental health disorders that are closely linked to perfectionism.
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, yeah, I can take a toll on
Speaker 1: our physical health as well on our relationships as Yeah,
Speaker 1: big cost.
Speaker 2: Well what are some of those mental health and physical health?
Speaker 2: Like what does that look like?
Speaker 1: With mental health conditions? A lot that are associated strongly
Speaker 1: with perfectionism. So the most common ones are sort of anxiety.
Speaker 1: You can imagine if I have this massive fear of
Speaker 1: failure and therefore I need to be perfect, or kind
Speaker 1: of pressure that create aids. So a lot of anxiety,
Speaker 1: low mood if I'm constantly feeling not good enough and
Speaker 1: I feel like I can't ever reach those unrelenting standards
Speaker 1: because because nobody can, and you're constantly falling short, you
Speaker 1: can start feeling really more and more reinforced in that
Speaker 1: belief that you're not enough, so you can really fuel
Speaker 1: that kind of low sense of self worth and depression.
Speaker 1: Eating disorders and anorexia is another one that specifically Anorexia's
Speaker 1: is one that's very closely linked to perfectionism too. You know,
Speaker 1: there's really rigid standards and very over controlled and it
Speaker 1: has to be exactly that way. So it does create
Speaker 1: quite a big vulnerability for other disorders, even OCD. We
Speaker 1: have to get it just right, and you can't really
Speaker 1: tolerate a lot of uncertainty and you have to try
Speaker 1: and get everything under control. OCDS has a strong link
Speaker 1: to as well, and on an even sad aside, and
Speaker 1: unfortunately a lot of suicidality as well. Again, I want
Speaker 1: to flag that with not every perfectionist is any mental
Speaker 1: health issues, but there are mental health issues that have
Speaker 1: a link to perfectionism. And yeah, that perfectionism can is
Speaker 1: a predictor of suicidality apart from the depression and hopelessness.
Speaker 1: So yeah, especially because if I don't want to show
Speaker 1: you any weaker, someone likely to seek help.
Speaker 3: No, definitely not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so perfectionists don't often seek help, and so
Speaker 1: it's sort of that double whammy of first of all
Speaker 1: the intense pressure and then second of all not allowing
Speaker 1: myself to reach out and delegate or ask for help. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Does that mean like a lot of the time when
Speaker 2: clients come to see you in the clinic, it's more
Speaker 2: of like another issue. They're not coming in for perfectionism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, They're usually coming in for things like I'm just
Speaker 1: really anxious, or I'm having panic attacks, or I'm stressed
Speaker 1: at work. But sometimes it's reframed. But then we see
Speaker 1: that actually there's these unrelenting standards, and yeah, sometimes clients
Speaker 1: with high perfectionism actually feel real ambivalent about coming into
Speaker 1: therapy at all because it is kind of having to
Speaker 1: relinquish a little bit of that control, having to have
Speaker 1: somebody want to dive underneath and see what's going on underneath. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's really confronting for somebody who wants to appear
Speaker 1: a certain way. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it also like is there a lot of shame
Speaker 2: and embarrassment there too to like not wanting to get
Speaker 2: that help.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely, because if I have to admit that
Speaker 1: I can't manage it by myself, for instance, it kind
Speaker 1: of reinforces that deep underlying feeling of not being enough,
Speaker 1: and that's definitely related or can and be very much
Speaker 1: related to shame and defectiveness.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I know before you were saying that there's links
Speaker 2: to mental health, but you also said physical health too.
Speaker 3: Can you share more about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you've got that constant pressure cooker
Speaker 1: in you, we know that's associated with high court soul levels.
Speaker 1: We know that high court sol levels associated with all
Speaker 1: kinds of physical health conditions. It's got a link there
Speaker 1: as well. And even you know sexuality, for instance, you
Speaker 1: need to be in a certain physical state to want
Speaker 1: to engage in intimacy, so it can take a toll
Speaker 1: in that regard as well, sexual health, sexual health and intimacy.
Speaker 3: It's like low libido that thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because I know for me, when I've been
Speaker 2: really stressed, I noticed my body was screaming at me
Speaker 2: like I had exma breaking out on my eye lids,
Speaker 2: like literally peeling. I'm like, oh my god, okay, there's
Speaker 2: I'm stressed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I.
Speaker 2: Didn't realize because you're so when you're so in it,
Speaker 2: you don't realize it until the body literally tells you absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So many conditions like you said skin conditions. Also,
Speaker 1: there's bizarre conditions that are somehow then linked back to
Speaker 1: stress that is linked back to perfectionism. For instance, you
Speaker 1: know seizures that nobody can explain, or there's there's lots
Speaker 1: of physical health conditions as well that have to do
Speaker 1: with perfectionism somewhere underneath.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm having all of the breakthrough on this episode.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I'm winking everything back.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, do.
Speaker 2: Perfectionists try new things, because I can imagine there's that
Speaker 2: feeling of needing to be a beginner again and that
Speaker 2: fear of failing when that's going to happen when it's new.
Speaker 1: I think you're right. You do lose a lot of
Speaker 1: openness to new experiences, and you lose a lot of
Speaker 1: curiosity about new things. Because maybe, in theory, if you
Speaker 1: could magically get perfectionism away, these would be things that
Speaker 1: the person would love to engage in. But then the
Speaker 1: fear of not being good at it, or making fool
Speaker 1: of oneself or failing at it and having to be
Speaker 1: confronted with that deep sense of inadequacy is scary. So yeah,
Speaker 1: often we would then try to avoid it all together,
Speaker 1: or if we decide to engage in it or have
Speaker 1: to engage in it to just do the other bit,
Speaker 1: which is the intense over preparation. Maybe you know, take
Speaker 1: classes beforehand so that you can you can turn up
Speaker 1: and seem like you've got it all together. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's coming from that sense of fear of failure.
Speaker 2: So last Christmas, I went skiing for the first time,
Speaker 2: I first ever white Christmas, and I did a ski
Speaker 2: lesson with my husband. We've never gone skiing before. We're
Speaker 2: both Sri Lunkan, so like we didn't grow up skiing,
Speaker 2: And literally we're doing this class and there's all these
Speaker 2: kids that are underfive there and I'm like, great, this
Speaker 2: is a really humbling moment for me.
Speaker 3: This is good.
Speaker 2: But then I just couldn't like what was doing the snowplow. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I couldn't do it.
Speaker 3: And I just got so frustrated.
Speaker 2: I kept falling down and I was so angry that
Speaker 2: I just didn't want to continue. And it was interesting
Speaker 2: because I really have to sit with like my inner critic,
Speaker 2: my inner judgment. I'm like, wow, okay, there's such an
Speaker 2: uncomfortability with sitting in I'm a beginner again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, it's a great example. I relate to that
Speaker 1: as well with not with scheme, but exactly exactly where Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just and it could have been so fun without
Speaker 1: that evaluation that was placed on top of why aren't
Speaker 1: you better at this? You should be getting this right?
Speaker 1: You know, five year olds is getting past you. Can't
Speaker 1: you do it? Yeah? Yeah, so it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a point that perfectionism can suck
Speaker 1: the joy out of life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because I was gonna ask, I'm like,
Speaker 2: do perfectionists experience joy at all?
Speaker 1: At best? I would say perfectionists experienced short term relief.
Speaker 1: So if you've if you've kind of hit a particular
Speaker 1: grade that you were working towards, there might be a
Speaker 1: moment of relief. That's not pure joy though, that's not
Speaker 1: that's not true contentment because I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: experienced that before. But then you might have achieved that
Speaker 1: particular goal and before you've had a chance to kind
Speaker 1: of revel in it and actually just be proud of yourself,
Speaker 1: the goalpost has moved and you're back to sort of
Speaker 1: the next goal already, or you might be on picking.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was good, but it could have been even better.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're literally inside of my mind right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so it takes it does take the joy away,
Speaker 1: even in moments where there's supposed to be joy after
Speaker 1: a success. So yeah, that constant moving of goalposts is exhausting.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to perfectionism, especially when it comes
Speaker 2: to mainstream media, I feel like it can be painted
Speaker 2: as this quirk or personality trait, but it's actually a
Speaker 2: lot more serious than that, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think perfectionism has an undue good rap for like people.
Speaker 1: You know, how have you ever been advised that if
Speaker 1: you go into an interview and they ask you for,
Speaker 1: you know, something that you need to work on, you
Speaker 1: get to say, oh, just stick perfectionistic sometimes because people
Speaker 1: say it's like it's kind of a good flaw to have.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's so true.
Speaker 1: And it really undermines, Yeah, what the person is going through,
Speaker 1: the risks associated with perfectionism, the constant pressure that the
Speaker 1: person is under, and the never allowing achieving kind of
Speaker 1: the endpoint because it's a relentless thing. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: and also the inner criticism that you have to endure
Speaker 1: day in day out, that inner bully that's just living
Speaker 1: rent free in your mind. It takes such a huge toll.
Speaker 1: So it's no perfectionism. Yeah, it's harmful, not harmless. Yeah.
Speaker 2: After the break, Anita explains why it's hard for perfectionists
Speaker 2: to break their habits. So for anyone that's been listening
Speaker 2: on and they're probably realizing, oh my gosh, okay, I
Speaker 2: am a perfectionist. What are some practical strategies that they
Speaker 2: can use.
Speaker 1: I always like to think about it coming from two levels.
Speaker 1: So I think because at the core of it is
Speaker 1: some deep, underlying, long standing stuff and that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: there's no quick fix for it. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: therapy can be a good place to unpack where is
Speaker 1: that all coming from? That deep sense of defectiveness or
Speaker 1: that my worth is very contingent on my performance, And
Speaker 1: can we start working on that deeper level as well,
Speaker 1: because then that will trickle up into our everyday behaviors.
Speaker 1: That being said, there's also some practical things that we
Speaker 1: can in the here and now that then help to
Speaker 1: kind of trickle down and correct some of these deeper
Speaker 1: underlying beliefs. So one thing that we can do is
Speaker 1: make mistakes on purpose and testing out whether our belief
Speaker 1: that I need to be perfect in order to be accepted,
Speaker 1: or I need to be perfect in order to keep
Speaker 1: my job, or whatever the beliefs might be that are
Speaker 1: driving the perfectionism. Can we almost be curious and put
Speaker 1: it to the test. Yeah, so it's what we would
Speaker 1: call exposure therapy, and that's a big, big part of
Speaker 1: debunking some of these firmly held beliefs. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: can we make some for instance, write the wrong email
Speaker 1: to the wrong person, for instance, or put a mistake
Speaker 1: in in a presentation on purpose, and then get to
Speaker 1: experience that instead of some catastrophe happening or combusting into
Speaker 1: their air. Actually it's quite survivable, and it doesn't kind
Speaker 1: of change everybody's opinion of me as a person, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't have a lot to do with my inherent worth.
Speaker 1: So when we can kind of test out those beliefs
Speaker 1: by doing the opposite of what we would usually do,
Speaker 1: so reduce preparation, put in mistakes, and see what actually happens,
Speaker 1: and see that what actually happens is first of all,
Speaker 1: no catastrophe happening, and sometimes even positive things coming from it,
Speaker 1: like I actually had way more fun than I usually do,
Speaker 1: or I was able to have a really good chat
Speaker 1: with somebody that I usually wouldn't because I'm so in
Speaker 1: my head. It starts, it starts as debunk that I
Speaker 1: need perfectionism to stay safe and to do well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I really like that strategy. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 2: a really good practical one.
Speaker 1: You know, if you have a job interview and not
Speaker 1: going to be like you choose that moment to test
Speaker 1: out saying all the wrong things just for the experiment.
Speaker 1: Maybe you start with something that feels a little bit
Speaker 1: lower stakes, like a mistake in an email, and then
Speaker 1: maybe you can build up on that and almost just
Speaker 1: be that curious kind of experiment to say, right, this
Speaker 1: is what I will happen from my perfectionistic lens. These
Speaker 1: are all the things that I think will go wrong
Speaker 1: and how I will feel about myself and what will
Speaker 1: be the consequences. Do the experiment, and then take stock
Speaker 1: of what actually happened. Usually there's a big difference, and
Speaker 1: that difference can help to start updating the beliefs, which
Speaker 1: is that we can survive these moments of imperfection and distress,
Speaker 1: so when something does go wrong, it doesn't unravel who
Speaker 1: we are as a person. It doesn't undo our lives
Speaker 1: to the degree that we expected it to, and I
Speaker 1: was able to kind of come through it and survive it.
Speaker 1: And so when I learned that over and over that
Speaker 1: I can withstand that feeling of imperfection, it makes me
Speaker 1: more resilient to it and it takes away the power
Speaker 1: of that fears. So it's actually really important to sometimes
Speaker 1: fail so we can experience that we can survive even that,
Speaker 1: Because you're right, it's two things. One thing is much
Speaker 1: less likely to happen and play out in the way
Speaker 1: that we pain out in our heads. But then it's
Speaker 1: also awesome to experience when it doesn't actually play out
Speaker 1: the way that we had it in our heads and
Speaker 1: we survived anyways.
Speaker 3: That's so cool. I really love that.
Speaker 2: So I know that you were talking about kind of
Speaker 2: like those strategies up here, but you were kind of saying,
Speaker 2: as well, there's some deeper there's deeper layers there, and
Speaker 2: is that kind of the work that you do in
Speaker 2: the therapy room, So like, what kind of evidence based
Speaker 2: therapies do you use when clients come to see you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love schema therapy. Yeah, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you've heard of therapy yeah, So it's about kind of
Speaker 1: seeing what unmet needs did we have as children, and
Speaker 1: that's usually a lot to do with our upbringing. It's
Speaker 1: not par and bashing, but it's just understanding where that
Speaker 1: came from, that our needs were not met, our need
Speaker 1: for secure attachment and our need for feeling worthwhile and
Speaker 1: adequate independence. And then once we realize what needs were
Speaker 1: not met in early childhood, that then informs what kind
Speaker 1: of schemers, which is sort of belief systems about how
Speaker 1: I operate in the world, what other people are like,
Speaker 1: my worth and when we talk about perfectionism, perhaps a
Speaker 1: schema that forms this kind of I'm not that lovable,
Speaker 1: I'm not that worthwhile, or this I'm a little bit defective,
Speaker 1: And then we develop coping strategies to try and deal
Speaker 1: with these beliefs and perfectionism. We've talked about it being
Speaker 1: a strategy. Can be a strategy to deal with that
Speaker 1: sense of defectiveness. But if we can correct and update
Speaker 1: that sense of defectiveness, we don't need to rely on
Speaker 1: that strategy so much anymore. But also is a cool
Speaker 1: thing in schema therapy, so that you can do a
Speaker 1: lot of inner critic work. So we almost we think about,
Speaker 1: is that in a critic, does it have more like
Speaker 1: a demanding quality where it's like, no, you've got to
Speaker 1: do well and so on, In which case, so can
Speaker 1: we start negotiating with it and setting some limits as
Speaker 1: to what it's demanding of us? Or does it even
Speaker 1: have a really kind of bullying punitive tone And if
Speaker 1: it is, you know, just an inner bully making your
Speaker 1: life hell, can we actually start banishing it all together?
Speaker 1: And will use chairs to work with that will put
Speaker 1: the inn a critic on a chair and then put
Speaker 1: the chair outside because it's got no room here. And
Speaker 1: once that's gone and that kind of really mean part
Speaker 1: is put outside, we can see what's left and can
Speaker 1: we heal those parts that never felt good enough?
Speaker 2: And it sounds like as well, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: reframing and shifting like thoughts and beliefs, but also just
Speaker 2: that in a dialogue, so it's like, where does self
Speaker 2: compassion come into all of this as well?
Speaker 1: It's a great thing that you raise. So in Skimma
Speaker 1: therapy would call us the healthy adult, and the healthy
Speaker 1: adult is kind of to replace that in a critic,
Speaker 1: and it is that much more balanced kind compassionate in
Speaker 1: a voice. Imagine how different your life can be when
Speaker 1: you start replacing that harsh bullying or demanding in a
Speaker 1: critic with that more compassionate, kind, healthy adult.
Speaker 2: So, how do you support someone in your life that
Speaker 2: may be a bit of a perfectionist and you're wanting
Speaker 2: to support them, but you don't want to come across
Speaker 2: as dismissive.
Speaker 1: It's such a good question. I think there's a few
Speaker 1: ways that have come to mind of how we can
Speaker 1: support someone in our lives that we want to help
Speaker 1: become a bit less perfectionistic. One thing is by modeling.
Speaker 1: So if I am showing you that I'm making mistakes left,
Speaker 1: right and center and it doesn't define my worth, and
Speaker 1: I'm kind of making you aware that that's another way
Speaker 1: of living, that can be, you know, an indirect way
Speaker 1: to kind of show a different path. You can also
Speaker 1: be quite intentional with how you respond to that person.
Speaker 1: So if you know that they are very perfectionistic, try
Speaker 1: and see if you can start rewarding or paying attention
Speaker 1: to the process rather than the outcome. So maybe you
Speaker 1: can be like, I feel like today you I really
Speaker 1: loved how like you know how interested you were in
Speaker 1: what we were reading, rather than you know, can you
Speaker 1: perfectly reiterate or regurgitate it, so can you reward process
Speaker 1: over outcome again to start giving a bit of a
Speaker 1: different lens. But then also I think the most important
Speaker 1: bit is can you start being that compassionate voice for
Speaker 1: them that at the moment feels really hard for them
Speaker 1: to summon themselves, and then for them they can start
Speaker 1: internalizing you actually, you know, so often my clients will say,
Speaker 1: then I heard kind of your voice, you know, being
Speaker 1: kind to me. Yeah, so you can be that for
Speaker 1: your for your loved one. If you can be that,
Speaker 1: show them what compassion can look like, and then over
Speaker 1: time they can start they've got something to grasp onto
Speaker 1: because often that feels so out of the realm of
Speaker 1: possibilities to be kind with yourself that when you have
Speaker 1: somebody in your life who is very kind to yourself,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a really good starting point to
Speaker 1: internalize it. Thanks. The brain is fluid and can learn
Speaker 1: new patterns, but it takes some time to override this
Speaker 1: old pattern that's almost like built up like a highway
Speaker 1: in your brain, and it's you know, automatic, and you
Speaker 1: want to try and create a new path. But first
Speaker 1: you're just like you know, whacking through the.
Speaker 4: Bush, and yeah, exactly, it's going to take some time
Speaker 4: to create a new path, but to stay at it compassionately,
Speaker 4: validate the underlying feeling and try and be patient with them,
Speaker 4: it's going to take a little bit of time.
Speaker 2: Thank you to Anita for joining me on this episode today.
Speaker 2: You can find links to her work in our show notes.
Speaker 2: If there's a topic you would like us to discuss,
Speaker 2: or I guess you think would be a great fit
Speaker 2: for this podcast, please get in touch with us at
Speaker 2: podcast at momamea dot com dot au or slid into
Speaker 2: our dms on Instagram at but Are You Happy?
Speaker 1: Podcast?
Speaker 2: Also, if you haven't already, would love a review on
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Speaker 2: and of course, if they there's anything in today's episode
Speaker 2: that has brought up difficult feelings for you, organizations like
Speaker 2: Lifeline and Beyond Blue are always there for free and
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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: Tune it again next Saturday for another episode of but
Speaker 2: Are You Happy? Good Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners
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