WEBVTT - Girl, It’s Not Gastro, It’s Perfectionism. 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.720 The inner criticism that you have to endure day in 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.640 day out, that inner bully that's just living rent and 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.320 free in your mind. It takes such a huge toll. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:13.640 So it's no perfectionism. Yeah, it's harmful, not harmless. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.680 Hi, I'm a shiny Dante and this is but are 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.840 you happy? Perfectionism is one of those words we throw 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.400 around a lot. We tend to picture someone who's just 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:29.120 really driven, really organized, and maybe a bit impressive, but 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.560 that's not quite the full story. Perfectionism is something much 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.000 deeper and much tougher to live with. It's a multi 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:41.920 dimensional personality style where you set standards that are often unrealistic, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.760 sometimes impossible, and tie your self worth tightly to how 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.040 well you can meet them. And when you don't, the 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.320 self criticism can be relentless, so it's not just about 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.760 wanting to do well, and mistakes don't just feel uncomfortable, 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.320 they can feel like personal failure. And to unpack all 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.240 of this, I'm joined by Anita Shimans, a clinical psychologist 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.560 at in Light Psychology here in Sydney and someone who 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:13.480 works closely with people navigating perfectionism every day. In this conversation, 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.520 we get into what Perfectionism actually is beyond the buzzword, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.400 the beliefs that keep people stuck in it, and how 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.040 it shows up in real life, from work to relationships 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.560 to the way we talk to ourselves, and importantly, we 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.440 talk about what helps how to reframe mistakes, loosen those 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:38.080 rigid standards, and build goals that are actually sustainable. It's thoughtful, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.480 it's practical. It might just change the way you see yourself. 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:50.760 Here's our conversation. Hi, Anita, thank you so much for 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:54.640 joining us for this conversation. I am very excited to 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.600 unpack this topic, so am I Thanks for having me. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.800 You know, it's funny because it is a very latable topic, 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.440 and I kind of just want to start off there, 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:07.480 like what exactly is perfectionism from a psychological perspective, and 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.240 how do you distinguish between the healthy striving for excellence 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:13.680 and the more harmful kind. 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.079 Yeah, it's such a good question because we use perfectionism 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.800 in everyday language. Is something that's actually quite good, you know, 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:24.480 something that helps to achieve things. But from a psychological perspective, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.760 it's kind of a different thing. So healthy striving and 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.799 striving for excellence is a great thing, right, Getting good 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.560 achievements and high standards, But perfectionism is more about when 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.960 there's such a deep, underlying fear of failure and not 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.560 being good enough. So the motivation is completely different. It's 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.359 about trying to not feel less than and so there's 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.480 a huge amount of pressure. So it's actually not a 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.320 very positive thing internally at all. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.160 So it's like, is perfectionism Is it kind of essentially 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.840 like it's a behavior we do to like stay safe 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.240 or like if you had to put a definition. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.120 To it, Yeah, that's a really good description. It is 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.440 kind of a strategy that develops because there's an underlying 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.160 sense of my worth is very much tied to my performance. 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.600 And so if my whole sense of worth and achievement 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.160 identity is attached to what I do, then I better 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.760 do that perfectly because otherwise I'm a failure. And so yeah, 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.800 it becomes a strategy to deal with this underlying sense 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.360 of I'm just not enough. 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.000 Because like I'm sure people have clicked into this episode 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.200 obviously might be relating to perfectionism in some way. Can 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.600 you share some common signs that someone might be struggling 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.760 with perfectionism without realizing it. 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.360 Yeah, it's a good one. Because we think about perfectionism 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.960 as like they've nailed it, they're on top of everyday detail. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.040 Sometimes it can look like that, and usually there's a 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.320 lot of over preparation and lots of time and energy 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.560 that's gone into what you can see on the outside. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.240 It might look effortless from the outside, but it was 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.440 not getting there. But it can also finally look really different. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.440 So you can see people from the outside feel like 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.800 they're not doing much at all, and they're sort of 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.600 maybe even seem lazy, or they seem like they're, yeah, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.080 just not achieving much. But actually it's the same underlying mechanism. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.440 It's just that that fear is so paralyzing, and the 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.080 fear of trying and then not being enough is so 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.840 scary that it's it keeps you entirely stuck. So from 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.120 the outside it might look like on the one hand, 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.719 achieving everything or achieving nothing, but the underlying mechanism is 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:30.080 the same. 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.400 So I know, like we've spoken a bit about perfectionism, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.239 and you know, it can sound like this really generic term, 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.520 like do you feel like there's different types of perfectionism. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.360 Yeah, it's a good point. There are heward and fled 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.960 to researchers that kind of came up with distinguishing between 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.279 three types. The one that we talk about most often 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.679 is the kind of the internalized perfectionism or the self 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.640 directed perfectionism, so that I really feel that my worth 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:03.120 is very strongly linked to my performance, and there's a 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.280 deep underlying fear of failure and a deep underlying fear 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.320 of not being good enough, and so I have to 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.360 try and strive and strive to you know, sort of 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.920 fix that perceived flow. So that's what we often talk 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.359 about when we think about perfectionism. But there are also 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.000 two other kind of types. One is more directed at others. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.119 So it might be a really kind of critical parent, 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.400 for instance, who expects their child to be perfect, or 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.720 it might be someone in a relationship who doesn't leave 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.480 a lot of room for mistakes from their partners and 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.440 kind of expect to nail it in every area at 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.919 all times. And you can see how those might create 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.800 different types of issues. And then a third type would 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.599 be where it's what we call socially prescribed perfectionism. So 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.440 when working with teenagers, how they're so aware they might 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.480 not even have that internal pressure as much, but they 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.080 feel like it's really put on them from outside. So 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.240 you have to get perfect, you know, perfect or on 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.240 HC so that you can get into your desired university program. 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.839 And also the parents are expecting this. And then also 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.680 if you fail as one thing, then your whole life trajectories, 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:14.760 you know off. So yeah, it's that kind of external 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.120 pressure that's being placed on you. Sometimes these all come together, 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.880 so you might have all three of them, or there 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.960 might be some that are a little bit more prevalent 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.839 prevalent than others. So also with the socially prescribed, it 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.320 might be that I just feel like I need to 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:32.520 keep up appearances so that I appear perfect. So social 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.520 media again comes into play there where maybe otherwise I'm 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.800 okay to you know, to sort of be in my 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.680 track pants and you know, my house looks a mess. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.400 But then I'm going to because I feel like I'm 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.360 going to be charged. I don't have that internal pressure, 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.040 but I have that external pressure to make things look perfect. 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.400 I think it's really cool that you're bringing awareness to 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.560 this because it's so true. There's like that classic archetype 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.400 of the perfectionists, the over chiever getting out there doing 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.080 it perfectly, and then it's great to shine a light 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:08.480 on that kind of lazy perfectionist archetype where that the 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.680 same stuff is happening below the surface, which you know 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.680 it's hard because you can't tell right it's so invisible. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.120 Exactly exactly, And then that kind of invites the very 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.720 criticism that keeps the perfectionism going. So why can't you 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.680 just get started? Why can't you just do this thing 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.040 internally and externally? Those sorts of pressures kind of layer 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.200 on top and somebody says, I'm a procrastinator. We kind 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.400 of think about that as being lazy and they can't 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.160 really get their stuff together, but actually they probably are 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.560 experiencing a lot of inner turmoil and that's where the 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:40.680 stockness comes from. 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:42.960 So why do we want to be perfect? 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:43.080 Like? 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:44.600 Where where does it all come from? 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.520 With perfectionism, I would say the nature element is that 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.000 somebody might be born with a bit more a higher 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:56.000 level of conscientiousness and attention to detail and sensitivity. But 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.400 with perfectionism there is a huge nurture element, So a 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.600 huge element of how we're brought up, how we're parented, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.760 what environment we're born into that can either make us 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.960 more likely or less likely to be perfectionistic. 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.960 It's interesting because like I'm thinking about I mean, it's 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:15.920 so funny because I feel like I've got this inner 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.880 reflection process going on of like the times when I 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.200 was younger, or even when I think about schools. Right, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.520 Like it perpetuates this idea of perfectionism because it's like 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.920 you get rewarded if your uniform's perfect, and you know 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.240 you're doing amazing at school, at sport, and it's a 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.720 lot and I feel like, I know, for me, we're 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.160 turning this into a therapy session. But like I did 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.320 feel like I needed to be perfect because the outside 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:43.160 world rewards that. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:45.480 I want to feel safe, I want to belong. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.760 Indeed, you raise a really good point that it's not 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.560 just you know, an internal process or even within family, 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.679 it's the whole society is set up to really kind 0:08:54.720 --> 0:09:00.679 of reward very very high standards and linking performance to work. So, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.040 I mean, what's my second question to your first question 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.120 is what's your name? And second question will be what 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:09.640 do you do try? So it's so closely linked to performance. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.680 And then in kind of high achieving areas or affluent 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.599 areas where private schools and so on, literally everything is 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:21.239 geared to perfection really, so, like you said, uniforms, performance, 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.960 every metric kind of gears to having to be a 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:24.520 certain way. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.839 I was listening to a podcast recently and a woman 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.000 was kind of sharing about her experiences with perfectionism, and 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.280 she was talking about when she grew up, she felt 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.880 like her mum would always criticize her when she made 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.920 a mistake, so she felt like she needed to be 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.600 that good girl archetype. So my question is what kind 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.120 of like long term impacts does this have on someone. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.800 These things developed really early on, and then the pressures 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:50.840 might be gone, so she might not have somebody in 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.480 her life anymore. That is setting really high expectations on her, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.680 expectations for her not to make any mistakes. But these 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:01.760 patterns are so entrenched now that she approaches life from 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.880 this perspective of I have to be a very particular way. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.040 There's not a lot of regal room, and outside of that, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.000 I lose acceptance or even I lose worth. And so 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.280 if you know parents who have quite a rigid expectation 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.240 of how a child has to be, that is really 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.480 internalized and then perpetuated throughout life. So it is difficult 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:31.520 to kind of relinquish and separate worth from achievement. And 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.559 I think you also touch on maybe like a gendered element. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.600 There is a little bit of that as well. Research 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.040 shows that women are a little bit more likely to 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.800 develop perfectionism than men. I think it is evening out 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.560 a little bit because there are lots of pressures put 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.479 on men these days as well. There's more body dysmorphee 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.439 and in men as well. But traditionally, you know, women 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.920 were expected to be a very particular way, and if 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.960 you make certain mistakes, you lose your worth and you'll 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.760 place in society, and so it created a lot of 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.840 internal pressure. And now as well, you know, we have 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.480 to be perfect at our careers. We also have to 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.200 be perfect, we have to have kids, and then when 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.679 we do have kids, has to be perfect. So there's 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.880 a lot of pressure and there's a lot of visibility 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.960 as well of comparison in all these areas. So yeah, 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:24.880 there is a bit of a gender element there too. 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.600 Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about the gender element too, 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:29.480 because I feel like, you know, a lot of my 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.719 background's been working with teenage girls and young women for 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.760 the last ten years, and I feel like it's exactly. 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.720 We're having the same conversations. It's not like, oh, I 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.520 need to be perfect at just school, I need to 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.640 have the perfect lifestyle. You know, we talk about social media, 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.920 they compare themselves. They know that it's not a real reality, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.479 but we still feel and they still feel this expectation 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.840 to fit into this perfect narrative that is just not achievable. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.520 Yeah, exactly, because we might know logically that that's curated, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.319 we're still bombarded with this you know, perfectly seeming life 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.800 of others twenty four seven or as often as we're 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.480 scrowling on Instagram, and so perfectionism might have, you know, 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.320 historically been more in the realm of academia work, but 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.680 it's now infiltrated all these other areas of life as well, like, 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.439 for instance, yeah, looks or what my home's supposed to 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.280 look like, or what relationships are supposed to be. So yeah, 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.000 it's now there's nothing that's safe from having that kind 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.400 of perfectionism pressure on it now with social media. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.199 Yeah, definitely, I feel like social media has just amplified 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.160 all the problems that we already we have to think. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.760 So yeah, which is so much a good idea, but no, Yeah, Yeah. 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.040 Literally, it's like amplifying the wrong things. Yeah, yeah, I 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.319 agreed with perfectionism. And it's really great because I love 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.319 that you're starting to bring some examples to this conversation 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.760 around what it can look like. Just anyone that's tuning 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.640 in that is wondering, Oh my gosh, am I perfectionists? 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.959 Like what how does it show up in let's say, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.679 relationships or at work or even parenting. 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.600 We almost have to unpack with the different types because 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.560 it can look really different. So let's start with the 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.439 kind of internal perfectionism how that shows up in relationships. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.079 So if I can't show you any of my flaws, 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.800 because I feel like if I show you any of 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.640 my imperfections you will immediately cost me as unworthy, then 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.439 I'm going to be quite guarded and I'm not going 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.040 to really show you a lot of what I feel 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.920 like our flaws. Are you going to feel particularly connected 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.360 to me when you see only a sliver of who 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:33.720 I am? 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:34.120 No? 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:34.760 Definitely not. 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.320 Yeah, i'd be on God be like, yeah, I'm not 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:38.199 sure about this moment? 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.840 Very authentic? Yeah, exactly. So it's a real barrier to 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.760 connection because vulnerability is about flaws, is about being honest 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.520 about things that you know, I'm scared about and so on, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.200 and when I protect all of that because I'm so 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.319 fearful of showing that side, Yeah, it's going to be 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.880 a barrier to us feeling connected. Whereas, for instance, with 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:02.920 the other directed perfectionism, if I'm placing unrelenting standards on 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.600 you at all times and kind of you know, criticizing 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.160 you when you fall short, how are you going to 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:07.960 feel towards me? 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.840 I will feel quite trapped. I'll be like, oh wow, 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.640 anything that I do, I'm getting it wrong. And yeah, 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:15.280 I would feel quite disempowered. 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.800 Yeah, exactly. So in either case, it's it's a real 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.600 barrier to connection socially prescribed as similar. So if I 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.080 expect a lot of criticism from you, I'm going to 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.480 be quite selective with what I show you, and again 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.480 that's not very authentic and therefore not so good for connection. 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.040 So that's in the relationship. Well yeah, yeah. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.720 That's really good. Okay, So that's relationship. How about work? 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.040 How does it look like at work? 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.760 At work, it does really create intense, intense pressure. So 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.840 it might be that you're just going above and beyond 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.520 to the point where it's taking such a toll on 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.760 you that not only your mental health suffers, but eventually 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.080 even your work suffers. So we know that those high 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.080 expectations and high standards can kind of get you so far, 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.360 but then as of a certain point, it actually becomes 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.120 more of a hindrance than a help. So it can 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.320 actually really get in the way of you doing work. 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.200 So if you're going to spend two hours perfecting an email, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.120 it's going to you know, create a long to do 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.240 list of things that you haven't gotten to that day, 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.600 because you know, you filed the wordings for that long 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.240 other directed. So if you're if you've got, for instance, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.200 people working under you and you're just you know, cracking 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.080 the whip and you expect perfection, you can have a 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.120 really disharmonious team and high turnover and things like that. 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.720 So yeah, it can it can impact work as well. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.560 More of my conversation with a Nita after this short break, like, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.640 what I'm curious about is like what are we getting 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.160 out of being perfect? You know, because there's so much 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:46.880 going on. 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.160 It's difficult to let go of the perfectionism if I 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.400 feel that's the only thing that's keeping me safe, that 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:58.120 makes things predictable and that keeps me accepted by others. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.880 If I attach all of that to perfectionism, I'm going 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.000 to be really reluctant to let that go. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:03.880 Yeah. 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.480 When we do, though, we learn that a lot of 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.000 different things happen than we would expect, so we actually 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:14.120 start becoming more creative, more free, more authentic, and lots 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.360 of positive things kind of or knock on effects of that. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:24.400 So yeah, holding on to it in reality doesn't give 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.640 us a whole lot of positives. But first we need 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.160 to try and start disentangling how much meaning we're attaching 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.000 to perfectionism before we can let it go. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.200 I think it's really interesting because I think the reality 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.680 of the world that we're in there is so much uncertainty, 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.480 like we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, like, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.280 and I think I know for me, it's this constant 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.400 battle because I'm like, oh, I need to learn to 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.120 let go, but this is what feels safe and comfy, 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.120 and I know this so well. But I think it's 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.440 just it's a constant letting go, which is hard. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:55.640 Yeah, And you raise such an important point with so 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.880 much uncertainty, you know, COVID definitely brought that up. Yeah, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.080 now you know wars and who knows, the world orders 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.640 changing and it's scary, and so when there's a lot 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.440 of unpredictability, we can kind of, you know, find escape 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.919 in trying to control what we can control very perfectly. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.520 And so that kind of links to another factor in 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.440 childhood that can really create a vulnerability to become a perfectionist, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.600 which is trauma and chaotic upbringing. So when there's chaos 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.359 around us and when there's unpredictability, we're going to try 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.359 and perfect the little bit that we have some control over. 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.520 Wow. Yeah, I know that you were starting to unpack 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:36.720 this a little bit. But what are the pros and 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.200 cons of remaining a perfectionist? 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.760 I would say the pros are really limited of remaining 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.160 a perfectionist because of just because of the really intense 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.840 toll it takes and it's not a sustainable strategy. And 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.159 so the pros could be that, you know, there is 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.560 a level of drive that it creates. The myth is 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.720 that we need that to have that drive. We can 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.760 replace that with value driven drive and suddenly becomes the 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.399 journey becomes enjoyable instead of kind of I have this 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.560 feared outcome that I need to get to. So yeah, 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.439 the pros and cons. The cons are outweigh the pros 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.359 by a lot, and it's arguable if there are even 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.320 any prose to holding onto that kind of extreme perfectionism. Yeah, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.600 and the cons are you know, but there's all kinds 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.119 of cons. But there's serious cons as well, where they 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.120 can take a big toll on our mental health. There 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.280 are many mental health disorders that are closely linked to perfectionism. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.119 Oh really yeah, yeah, I can take a toll on 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.480 our physical health as well on our relationships as Yeah, 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:42.159 big cost. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.400 Well what are some of those mental health and physical health? 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:46.320 Like what does that look like? 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.640 With mental health conditions? A lot that are associated strongly 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.480 with perfectionism. So the most common ones are sort of anxiety. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.520 You can imagine if I have this massive fear of 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.000 failure and therefore I need to be perfect, or kind 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.920 of pressure that create aids. So a lot of anxiety, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.880 low mood if I'm constantly feeling not good enough and 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.840 I feel like I can't ever reach those unrelenting standards 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.480 because because nobody can, and you're constantly falling short, you 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.199 can start feeling really more and more reinforced in that 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.159 belief that you're not enough, so you can really fuel 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.600 that kind of low sense of self worth and depression. 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:28.360 Eating disorders and anorexia is another one that specifically Anorexia's 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.359 is one that's very closely linked to perfectionism too. You know, 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.320 there's really rigid standards and very over controlled and it 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.520 has to be exactly that way. So it does create 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:42.199 quite a big vulnerability for other disorders, even OCD. We 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.240 have to get it just right, and you can't really 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.960 tolerate a lot of uncertainty and you have to try 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:53.080 and get everything under control. OCDS has a strong link 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.080 to as well, and on an even sad aside, and 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.679 unfortunately a lot of suicidality as well. Again, I want 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.280 to flag that with not every perfectionist is any mental 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.720 health issues, but there are mental health issues that have 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.600 a link to perfectionism. And yeah, that perfectionism can is 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.800 a predictor of suicidality apart from the depression and hopelessness. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.320 So yeah, especially because if I don't want to show 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.520 you any weaker, someone likely to seek help. 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:22.399 No, definitely not. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.000 Yeah, yeah, so perfectionists don't often seek help, and so 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.840 it's sort of that double whammy of first of all 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.560 the intense pressure and then second of all not allowing 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.960 myself to reach out and delegate or ask for help. Yeah. 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.600 Does that mean like a lot of the time when 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.960 clients come to see you in the clinic, it's more 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.160 of like another issue. They're not coming in for perfectionism. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.879 Yeah, They're usually coming in for things like I'm just 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.600 really anxious, or I'm having panic attacks, or I'm stressed 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.840 at work. But sometimes it's reframed. But then we see 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.760 that actually there's these unrelenting standards, and yeah, sometimes clients 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.360 with high perfectionism actually feel real ambivalent about coming into 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.159 therapy at all because it is kind of having to 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:08.480 relinquish a little bit of that control, having to have 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.920 somebody want to dive underneath and see what's going on underneath. Yeah, 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.439 and that's really confronting for somebody who wants to appear 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.080 a certain way. Yeah. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.600 Is it also like is there a lot of shame 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.600 and embarrassment there too to like not wanting to get 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:24.080 that help. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.639 Yeah, yeah, definitely, because if I have to admit that 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.800