WEBVTT - The 'Right' And 'Wrong' Ways To Grieve 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.520 You're listening to I'm Mom with MIA podcast. 0:00:09.719 --> 0:00:12.440 We inherently know how to grieve. Our minds and our 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.200 bodies do it for us. But we live in a 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.800 society that tells us to hurry up, to get back 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.079 to normal, to just get through it, and we can't. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.520 The problem isn't our grief. The problem isn't how we grieve. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.639 The problem is that we live in a culture that's 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.960 forgotten how sacred grief can be. 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.560 Before MoMA Mia, I'm your host a Shandy Dante. Welcome 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.120 to But Are You Happy? The show for people who 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.360 believe in work life balance but also answer their emails 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:44.800 from bed. 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:49.400 And I'm doctor anastagavoronas a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:54.320 and mental health. Now today we're exploring grief, the different 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.240 types of grief, and what healthy versus unhealthy grieving can 0:00:58.280 --> 0:00:58.680 look like. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.760 Everyone experiences grief at some point, so it's such an 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.999 important topic to talk about and also build our wayness around. 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:12.039 So let's talk about it. I'm really excited to talk 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.760 about grief today because I think often it's an emotion 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:17.640 that gets pushed to the side, and I find it 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.400 such a fascinating and potent motion, and it tells us 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.280 so much about ourselves. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.959 Because we're usually afraid of grief totally, right, Yeah, in 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.880 society we don't talk much about grief. It's not I 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.520 think we're more able to talk about things like anxiety 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:31.240 than we are grief. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.200 To be honest, that is so true, and I think 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.880 that's what I am excited about diving into shining a 0:01:35.960 --> 0:01:38.319 light on the topics that we can kind of leave 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.319 a little bit in the shadows. So Atasthasia, what is grief? 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:43.880 Can you unpack it for us? 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:44.760 So? 0:01:44.960 --> 0:01:51.680 Grief is essentially an emotional response to a loss. Yeah, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.080 if we just sort of put it simply, it's the 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.560 kind of emotional and effective process that we have. It's 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.800 different to kind of bereavement, which we would classify as 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.760 the actual factual loss, Like if someone is bereeved, how 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.000 we would describe them as having lost someone, Whereas grief 0:02:08.079 --> 0:02:10.519 is the internal emotional experience that we have. 0:02:11.799 --> 0:02:14.200 That's good to kind of discerbe between those two terms 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:14.720 as well. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.160 And I think here at the start is really important 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.080 to kind of say that when we're talking about grief, 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.680 we're not just talking about grief in the context of death. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.120 And dying, which is often what people think of when 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.600 grief is mentioned. Grief can relate to any loss that 0:02:31.640 --> 0:02:35.360 we experience in life. So that could be the loss 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.440 of a job, the loss of a relationship, you know, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.640 the loss of a pet, the loss of a certain 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:42.880 status that we might have. It could be any sort 0:02:42.920 --> 0:02:45.680 of loss and change that occurs in life that we 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:46.920 feel grief in relation to. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.200 I think it's really good that we talk about that 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.680 because you're right, like, there is that kind of stereotypical 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.440 type of grief around losing a loved one, and I 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.280 think it's great that we talk about those transition moments 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.560 in life and how it is kind of like this 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.000 shedding of an old identity. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:07.120 Right, and the dual process that can exist there where 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.040 if we are talking about life transitions, there can be 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.680 an excitement and a joy for the new and what's 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.320 to come in conjunction with a loss and a grief 0:03:18.640 --> 0:03:20.040 for what we're leaving behind. 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.560 That's so true. Grief can really shine a spotlight on, 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.640 you know, the things that we value and love most 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.280 as well. Absolutely so, I know something you mentioned just 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.840 before around there can be a bit of a stigma 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.680 around talking about grief So why is that the case. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.600 Why don't we talk about it as much as like 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.280 what you were saying before around anxiety. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.440 Yeah, I think there is a general fear of talking 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.600 about grief. But I also want to kind of say 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.840 that I think this is somewhat more of a problem 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:57.320 with Western society. Certain cultures actually really embrace the concept 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.960 of death and dying. You know, we see cultures that 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.600 celebrate Day of the Dead, for example. You know, certain 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.480 cultures where it's customary to have the person who has 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.680 passed away in the home for a period of time, 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:10.080 have the body in the home. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:10.720 For a period of time. 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.480 Yeah, and these kind of rituals and traditions around sort 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.320 of paying respect to those who have passed away. This 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.039 is often sort of tied with religion or with culture. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:22.640 But what we see in sort of more of a 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:27.640 Western society is that the dying and the dead I'm 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.960 just going to use real factual terms here, the dying 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.480 and the dead are sort of kept somewhat away from 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.919 our day to day life. If we think about, you know, 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.240 societies where people who are dying are sort of kept 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.800 in the home and cared for at home, versus societies 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.279 where people are put into nursing homes and kept somewhat separate. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.960 And this is not to sort of shame those those trajectories. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.039 It's just to kind of shine a spotlight on the 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.200 fact that when we keep these things somewhat separate from 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.200 our day to day lives, we can develop more of 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.719 a sort of fear and anxiety about them because they're 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:00.760 more foreign to us. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.200 It's interesting you speak about cultures because I think about 0:05:03.280 --> 0:05:06.080 in the Shri Lannkan culture, there's a thing called danes 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.400 and that's kind of this it's kind of like a 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.880 death anniversary. And I know this is probably more of 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.919 a Buddhist lens, because that's quite a Buddhism is really 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.280 culturally ingrained in the Sri Lunkan culture. So it's usually 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.960 when there's like monks that come in and everyone wears white, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.160 and you know, there's a ritual process that comes together 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.000 where loved ones come together and really honor and celebrate 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.120 the life that was. And I think that's really special 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.640 because exactly what you were talking about before, it's like 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.200 there's always a remembering of the people that have passed, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.960 and it's something that you know, we should bring more 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:39.880 into the Western world. There's so much we can learn 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:40.800 from other cultures. 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.400 Absolutely, and as you're saying that, we have something very 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.560 similar in Greek culture where on the anniversary of the 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.640 death will we will go to church. I mean, my 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.640 background is Greek Orthodox, so we have traditions and sort 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.360 of processes around how we grieve, you know, we will 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:01.400 wear black, and there is definitely an outward expression of 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.080 grief and being in a state of mourning, you know, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.839 like it's it's not uncommon to see people physically visibly 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.200 very upset and for the kind of collective group to 0:06:12.280 --> 0:06:15.640 come together and support one another through that morning process. 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.960 And we again have a church service at the forty 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.159 day mark, which is significant in our culture, and then 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.400 on the year of the anniversary and so on. 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.279 That's beautiful. So I've heard of the five Stages of 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.360 grief model. I love it. Can you tell us more 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:32.840 about it? 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.920 Yes, I can. I really love the work around five 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.440 stages of grief. So this was originally done by a 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.920 lady called Elizabeth Koubler Ross, so it's often referred to 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.520 as the Kubler Ross model of Stages of grief. And 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.680 she actually wrote this fundamental text a number of years ago. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.680 About actually people who were dying, so before we get 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:54.480 to grief sort of people who are dying. It's called 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.960 on Death and Dying, And then she wrote on Grief 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.120 and Grieving, and she talks about these stages of grief. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.279 But I want to highlight that actually at the start 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.480 of the book, it's very clearly stated that these stages 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.240 are not meant to be linear stages that people move through, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:15.480 and they're not meant to be prescriptive but descriptive. So 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.960 they're meant to describe people's experiences, provide a bit of 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.040 a scaffold for them to which they might be able 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.880 to relate to as they go through this process of grieving. 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.760 But it's certainly not a prescribed model where we would 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.040 expect to move from one stage to the next. It's 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:30.160 much more fluid than that. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.040 I really like that because I think it's true, like 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.520 I feel, grief in itself is such a messy, non 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.960 linear approach, so I'd like that that's kind of part 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:39.760 of the framework. 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.080 Yes, And I think I say that at the start 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.880 before I go through the stages, because in the way 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.840 that sort of certain things are packaged and sold these days, 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.200 we like to sometimes reduce content to its simplest form. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.400 And so I have actually seen the stages of grief 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.640 model talked about as these sort of steps that you follow, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:57.680 and I just want to bust that myth in case 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.200 anyone thinks that that's the sort of process they should 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.600 be following. It's not meant to be prescriptive. It's meant 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.560 to describe a general experience. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.920 M okay, So what are these stages you're speaking about? 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.560 Yes, okay. So the stages are denial. So this is 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.080 being in a state of not believing that the person 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.760 has passed away, just simply refusing to believe it to 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.920 be true. Anger, feeling angry that the person is gone, 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:30.080 feeling angry at the circumstances around which they left and died, bargaining, 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.160 So this sense of if I had only done this, 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.560 then they would still be here, or if this hadn't 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.439 have happened, then they would still be here. So this 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.639 sort of internal tug of war that we feel. Fourth 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.599 one is depression and a kind of sadness that can 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:50.359 overcome us. And then the fifth one is acceptance, and 0:08:50.479 --> 0:08:55.520 this is a state of accepting and acknowledging that the 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.120 person has passed. Now I want to be really clear, 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.959 acceptance is not approval. Acceptance is not me saying it's okay, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.159 or I like it or I agree with it. Acceptance 0:09:05.239 --> 0:09:07.280 is simply me saying it is. 0:09:09.079 --> 0:09:12.040 Yeah. That's a really good way to distinguish between the two. 0:09:12.839 --> 0:09:17.040 I really have found this model super helpful because for 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.920 me it was more specifically around grieving my old career 0:09:21.319 --> 0:09:24.240 and also old friends. And I remember, I don't know 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:25.559 how I got to it. I must have been in 0:09:25.599 --> 0:09:29.800 conversation with you, but I was deep in the like 0:09:29.839 --> 0:09:32.360 I was deep in my grief, and when I found 0:09:32.359 --> 0:09:35.880 this model and I was looking at it, I was like, oh, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.479 I'm in the denial phase. Oh, that's when I was angry. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.280 And it was just really nice for my mind to 0:09:41.479 --> 0:09:44.120 kind of have a bit of a concept around what 0:09:44.239 --> 0:09:46.920 I was going through, because it can be a lot, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.679 and especially when you haven't gone through a level of 0:09:49.719 --> 0:09:53.600 grief before, sometimes a bit more language and awareness really 0:09:53.599 --> 0:09:56.879 does help. So absolutely, yeah, it's been super supportive for me. 0:09:57.199 --> 0:10:01.199 Those stages of grief. They don't change the experience for us. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.600 They don't sort of tell us how to solve the 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.800 feeling of grief, but they provide a bit of a cushion, 0:10:07.239 --> 0:10:10.759 so that if we are experiencing those emotions, we can 0:10:10.839 --> 0:10:14.280 relate to the fact that this is a universal, common 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.000 human experience that people go through. I'm not alone in 0:10:17.079 --> 0:10:20.120 this feeling. I'm not unique in what I'm feeling, and 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.239 that can provide some comfort for us. 0:10:22.479 --> 0:10:23.360 Yeah, totally. 0:10:23.839 --> 0:10:26.520 Before we jump on from the stages of grief and 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.839 talk about other things, I want to actually add that 0:10:29.839 --> 0:10:32.359 there's been an addition to the five stages of grief, 0:10:32.359 --> 0:10:33.959 which I don't think is as widely known. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:35.000 No, I didn't know this. 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:39.719 Yeah, So there's another clinician, David Kesler, who's worked very 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.079 closely with Elizabeth Koobler Ross, who did the original stages 0:10:43.119 --> 0:10:47.640 of grief. So they worked together and David Kesler added 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.480 this sixth stage of grief to the model. And the 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:58.520 sixth stage is meaning. Oh, finding meaning in the experience WHOA. Now, 0:10:58.599 --> 0:11:02.359 David's really clear in saying it's not about finding meaning 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.519 in that person's death. So's not to say that there 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.880 is meaning in the fact that someone passed from cancer 0:11:08.439 --> 0:11:10.519 or you know, was in a car accident or anything 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.880 awful like that. It's about how we create meaning for 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:18.439 ourselves through that experience of grief and that being that 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.320 sort of final end stage after acceptance. Because he reflected 0:11:22.319 --> 0:11:24.760 on the fact and David talks about the fact he 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.280 actually lost his son when his son was twenty one 0:11:27.359 --> 0:11:29.880 years old, I think it was so he firsthand has 0:11:29.959 --> 0:11:35.079 experienced intense grief and reflected on this idea that acceptances 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.720 that final stage doesn't quite feel like enough to be 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:39.599 able to get to a place of Okay, well it 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.040 is what it is. So this additional stage of meaning 0:11:43.199 --> 0:11:46.479 really adds a layer of being able to kind of 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.400 find and process the experience for ourselves. 0:11:49.839 --> 0:11:53.000 So does that mean with meaning? Does that have anything 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:58.200 to do with like gratitude or there was purpose around it? Like, yeah, 0:11:58.239 --> 0:11:59.239 I'm trying to understand it. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.400 Yes, in some ways. So it's not like gratitude in 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.199 like being grateful for the fact that they're gone. Yeah, 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.400 it's about I'm so grateful that I got to spend 0:12:08.439 --> 0:12:10.800 time with this person. You know, if someone's parent has 0:12:10.839 --> 0:12:14.199 passed away, I'm so grateful that I got them as 0:12:14.239 --> 0:12:16.679 a parent in my life. I'm so grateful that we 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.959 shared these memories. So it can be about gratitude and 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.439 it can be about sort of finding meaning kind of 0:12:22.479 --> 0:12:24.760 in the legacy of that person's life as well. 0:12:25.239 --> 0:12:27.160 And it's interesting because what I'm hearing too, it kind 0:12:27.199 --> 0:12:31.399 of gives another perspective to the process of grief as well. 0:12:31.599 --> 0:12:36.239 Yeah, and I think grief is a period or stage 0:12:36.319 --> 0:12:39.479 or part of life that really kind of can bring 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.359 up some existential questions for people. It can make them 0:12:42.439 --> 0:12:46.719 question their own values, morals, spiritual systems that they believe in. 0:12:47.199 --> 0:12:50.840 And I think this is where meaning and you know, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.240 the meaning of life, big questions we're talking about on 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.400 the podcast Meaning of Life. I know, what's the meaning 0:12:58.439 --> 0:13:01.080 in suffering and what's the meaning in life as really 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.200 kind of fundamental concepts to consider. 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.000 Because I think it's really great that there is this model, 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.800 and so great to hear this additional stage as well. 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.800 But it's me thinking about how there really is so 0:13:13.839 --> 0:13:19.120 many different ways to process grief, like other models, like 0:13:19.719 --> 0:13:21.920 this model that relates to it. 0:13:22.079 --> 0:13:26.040 Yeah, there's one other key model, and this is kind 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.640 of referred to as the dual processing model. And in 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.240 some ways it's a little bit simpler I think it. Well, 0:13:31.479 --> 0:13:33.400 maybe maybe I take that back, but in some ways 0:13:33.439 --> 0:13:36.679 it's kind of it's got sort of two parts to it, right, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.360 So they refer to kind of the loss orientation part 0:13:40.839 --> 0:13:44.640 and the restoration orientation part, which actually sounds quite wordy 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:45.920 as I say it out loud about. 0:13:45.719 --> 0:13:48.079 Time, let me break that down a lot of syllables. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.839 Yes, yes, So in the loss orientation phase, the person 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:56.439 who is grieving engages in the emotions related to grief 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.040 in terms of the loss of the person or the 0:13:59.079 --> 0:14:02.239 thing that they're grieving. So this is kind of exploring 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.880 and expressing those different emotions that they experience, whatever they are. 0:14:06.079 --> 0:14:10.280 So this is the phase where we're oriented towards the loss, 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.719 but then there's also a phase where we're oriented towards restoration. 0:14:15.359 --> 0:14:17.559 So this is the idea of being more sort of 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.320 problem focused in our coping. It's about sort of thinking 0:14:21.359 --> 0:14:23.920 about any adjustments we might need to make in our 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.800 life as a result of the loss. So I guess 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.200 there's more of a kind of practical problem sort of 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.640 solving focus in that restoration phase as opposed to the 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.879 loss orientation phase, which is really about the emotions attached 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:38.480 to that grief. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.040 So people can show either one of those kind of 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.120 ways of processing. 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.639 Well, it's more about the moving between those two kind 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.480 of different phases or stages and again it not being linear, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.160 but just sort of the different phases we can be in, 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.680 which can kind of explain why when someone is grieving, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.640 they might have a day or a moment where they're 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.200 really like deep in the feelings, and then the next 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.000 day they might be less attached to those feelings but 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.240 more sort of problem oriented in terms of trying to 0:15:05.239 --> 0:15:08.160 solve problems or figure out the direction as to where 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:08.840 to from here. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.480 That's really helpful to know the two different ways I'm 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.840 reflecting on my life in the moments I've grieved, I'm like, ah, 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:20.120 I was doing that. So with grief, it's usually an 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.880 emotion that passes by ride like it takes time to 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.600 move through it. But can you ever get stuck in grief? 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:27.080 Hm? 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.240 Yes, And this is where I don't want to necessarily 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.800 say like there's a right or wrong way to believe. Yeah, 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:39.640 but there can be an unhealthy grief experience that some 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.040 people can develop where they can absolutely, as you said, 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.240 get stuck in the emotional experience. And so we actually 0:15:45.359 --> 0:15:47.600 kind of have a clinical definition for this. We call 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.119 it prolonged grief disorder. It was previously referred to as 0:15:51.119 --> 0:15:53.960 complicated grief. But not sure how I feel about that 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.840 sort of title. So it's now prolonged grief disorder, and 0:15:57.239 --> 0:16:00.000 it's this idea that grief is natural and normal. However, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.520 some people can get really stuck in the experience to 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.200 the point where it is impact in their day to 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.120 day life. So some of the signs or symptoms we 0:16:08.239 --> 0:16:11.840 might look at to diagnose a prolonged grief disorder are 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.200 things like an identity disruption. So the person who's grieving 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.080 almost feeling like a part of themselves has died with 0:16:20.239 --> 0:16:25.120 the person. We see this prolonged feeling and sense of 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.639 disbelief about the death, just like they just cannot process 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.720 that it's actually happened. A really strong avoidance of reminders 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.120 of the person. This is a really key one. No 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.920 photos in the house, no talking about that person, no 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.479 objects that might trigger memories relating to that person. A 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.280 real strong avoidance, which again is a normal and natural 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.600 part at certain stages to a degree. But we're talking 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.600 about when someone experiences this for a long time and 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.960 in a way where it really becomes dysfunctional in their life. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.640 And also this experience of sort of feeling like their 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:08.080 life is meaningless without that person around. So these are 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.480 some of the symptoms that we might see for people 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.999 who are experiencing that prolonged grief disorder, and if that 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.320 is the case, we as therapists would want to be 0:17:16.399 --> 0:17:19.919 working with them to help them grieve in a healthier way. 0:17:20.159 --> 0:17:23.999 So when you say prolonged, like is there because I 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.239 know we spoke to around there is no timeline on grief. 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:31.160 You know it's nonlinear. But is there some criteria where 0:17:31.159 --> 0:17:33.879 it's like, oh, it has to be over twelve months 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:35.919 or is it a little bit of a gray area. 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.560 It's a bit gray, but for this we would be 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.240 looking around the twelvemonth mark. 0:17:40.399 --> 0:17:40.919 Yeah, okay. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.040 And again not to say that you know, people can 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:48.639 grieve their entire life. It's about how functional or dysfunctional 0:17:48.679 --> 0:17:50.200 it is in their life. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.160 Right. I feel like when we talk about grief naturally, 0:17:53.159 --> 0:17:55.400 it can be such a heavy and dense topic, right, 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.359 But I think what I'm really hearing, especially in our conversation, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.920 is that it can be It can be a really 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.159 beautiful perspective too. It can be a celebration of life 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.479 or impact that someone has had on you, or a 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.560 previous chapter that you've gone through in life. 0:18:08.639 --> 0:18:12.320 Right. Yeah, this is where we get to kind of 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.040 hold two different or competing emotions at the same time. 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.000 We can be really sad that someone's no longer around, 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.359 but hold on to those really positive memories that we've 0:18:22.399 --> 0:18:25.800 had with them, the gratitude that we have for the 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.240 fact they've been a part of our life, and share 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.480 their wisdom with us or shared memories with us. So 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.440 it can be really important through the grieving process at 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:42.479 certain points to be able to hold both those different feelings. 0:18:43.679 --> 0:18:47.760 So let's start with the basics. How do we actually 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:49.439 grieve in a healthy way. 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:55.720 Yeah, so I don't want to prescribe how people should grieve, 0:18:56.679 --> 0:19:01.159 but there are some things we can do to help 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.240 us along the way when it comes to grief. So 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.399 the first kind of tip I would give when it 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.320 comes to grief is as hard as it is, allow 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.480 the feelings to be there, the anger, the resentment, the frustration, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:21.040 the sadness, the desperation, whatever it is, whatever the mess 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:25.719 of emotions are, let them be there. It really helps 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.199 in order for us to be able to process grief, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.280 to process any emotional experience, to be able to feel 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.400 it fully and to sort of come out the other 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.919 end of it. That feeling that intense feeling that you 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.679 might feel in that moment. It won't last forever. It 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.719 will come, you will feel it like a wave, and 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:46.880 it will eventually die down. The grief may be there forever, 0:19:47.679 --> 0:19:49.840 but the intensity of the emotions won't. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.200 That's so true. I really love this and I have 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.639 all these little catchphrases I do for myself, but one 0:19:56.639 --> 0:19:58.600 of the things I say is feel it to heal it. 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.119 So you know, it might be rant into a friend 0:20:01.159 --> 0:20:04.560 on a phone, or crying in a shower. Not speaking 0:20:04.639 --> 0:20:08.680 from experience, but you know, even having a hot shower, 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.479 like the water is so cleansing, it does something to me. 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.440 You're talking a bit about maybe self soothing is totally right. 0:20:14.639 --> 0:20:17.280 So I think self soothing is absolutely a part of 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.919 giving ourselves comfort through the process of grieving. Having the 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.480 warm shower that feels like a warm hug while we're crying, 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:29.039 you know, or finding the scentered candles, the smells, the 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.399 textures that are really sort of comforting and soothing for 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.119 us in those moments where we're deep in the feelings. Totally, 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.280 a couple of other things people can do to help 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.800 themselves through the grief process is where possible. And again 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.479 I'm not prescribing, but where possible, try to maintain routines. 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:47.879 This doesn't mean that you need to get up and 0:20:47.919 --> 0:20:49.679 go to work every day, because maybe you take some 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.399 time off work, but getting up, brushing your teeth, having 0:20:54.399 --> 0:20:57.600 a shower, the basic sort of routines of day to 0:20:57.679 --> 0:21:01.080 day self care, the fundamentals of self care. We really 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.560 want to try and keep those in check because our body, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.560 our brain, our emotional nervous system is going through this 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.760