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Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Mom with MIA podcast.

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Speaker 2: We inherently know how to grieve. Our minds and our

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Speaker 2: bodies do it for us. But we live in a

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Speaker 2: society that tells us to hurry up, to get back

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Speaker 2: to normal, to just get through it, and we can't.

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Speaker 2: The problem isn't our grief. The problem isn't how we grieve.

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Speaker 2: The problem is that we live in a culture that's

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Speaker 2: forgotten how sacred grief can be.

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Speaker 1: Before MoMA Mia, I'm your host a Shandy Dante. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to But Are You Happy? The show for people who

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Speaker 1: believe in work life balance but also answer their emails

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Speaker 1: from bed.

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Speaker 3: And I'm doctor anastagavoronas a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness

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Speaker 3: and mental health. Now today we're exploring grief, the different

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Speaker 3: types of grief, and what healthy versus unhealthy grieving can

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Speaker 3: look like.

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Speaker 1: Everyone experiences grief at some point, so it's such an

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Speaker 1: important topic to talk about and also build our wayness around.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about it. I'm really excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about grief today because I think often it's an emotion

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Speaker 1: that gets pushed to the side, and I find it

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Speaker 1: such a fascinating and potent motion, and it tells us

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Speaker 1: so much about ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Because we're usually afraid of grief totally, right, Yeah, in

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Speaker 3: society we don't talk much about grief. It's not I

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Speaker 3: think we're more able to talk about things like anxiety

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Speaker 3: than we are grief.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, that is so true, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's what I am excited about diving into shining a

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Speaker 1: light on the topics that we can kind of leave

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Speaker 1: a little bit in the shadows. So Atasthasia, what is grief?

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Speaker 1: Can you unpack it for us?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 3: Grief is essentially an emotional response to a loss. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: if we just sort of put it simply, it's the

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Speaker 3: kind of emotional and effective process that we have. It's

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Speaker 3: different to kind of bereavement, which we would classify as

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Speaker 3: the actual factual loss, Like if someone is bereeved, how

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Speaker 3: we would describe them as having lost someone, Whereas grief

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Speaker 3: is the internal emotional experience that we have.

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Speaker 1: That's good to kind of discerbe between those two terms

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 3: And I think here at the start is really important

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Speaker 3: to kind of say that when we're talking about grief,

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Speaker 3: we're not just talking about grief in the context of death.

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Speaker 3: And dying, which is often what people think of when

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Speaker 3: grief is mentioned. Grief can relate to any loss that

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Speaker 3: we experience in life. So that could be the loss

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Speaker 3: of a job, the loss of a relationship, you know,

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Speaker 3: the loss of a pet, the loss of a certain

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Speaker 3: status that we might have. It could be any sort

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Speaker 3: of loss and change that occurs in life that we

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Speaker 3: feel grief in relation to.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really good that we talk about that

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Speaker 1: because you're right, like, there is that kind of stereotypical

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Speaker 1: type of grief around losing a loved one, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's great that we talk about those transition moments

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Speaker 1: in life and how it is kind of like this

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Speaker 1: shedding of an old identity.

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Speaker 3: Right, and the dual process that can exist there where

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Speaker 3: if we are talking about life transitions, there can be

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Speaker 3: an excitement and a joy for the new and what's

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Speaker 3: to come in conjunction with a loss and a grief

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Speaker 3: for what we're leaving behind.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. Grief can really shine a spotlight on,

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Speaker 1: you know, the things that we value and love most

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Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely so, I know something you mentioned just

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Speaker 1: before around there can be a bit of a stigma

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Speaker 1: around talking about grief So why is that the case.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about it as much as like

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Speaker 1: what you were saying before around anxiety.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there is a general fear of talking

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Speaker 3: about grief. But I also want to kind of say

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Speaker 3: that I think this is somewhat more of a problem

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Speaker 3: with Western society. Certain cultures actually really embrace the concept

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Speaker 3: of death and dying. You know, we see cultures that

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Speaker 3: celebrate Day of the Dead, for example. You know, certain

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Speaker 3: cultures where it's customary to have the person who has

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Speaker 3: passed away in the home for a period of time,

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Speaker 3: have the body in the home.

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Speaker 1: For a period of time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and these kind of rituals and traditions around sort

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Speaker 3: of paying respect to those who have passed away. This

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Speaker 3: is often sort of tied with religion or with culture.

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Speaker 3: But what we see in sort of more of a

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Speaker 3: Western society is that the dying and the dead I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to use real factual terms here, the dying

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Speaker 3: and the dead are sort of kept somewhat away from

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Speaker 3: our day to day life. If we think about, you know,

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Speaker 3: societies where people who are dying are sort of kept

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Speaker 3: in the home and cared for at home, versus societies

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Speaker 3: where people are put into nursing homes and kept somewhat separate.

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Speaker 3: And this is not to sort of shame those those trajectories.

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Speaker 3: It's just to kind of shine a spotlight on the

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Speaker 3: fact that when we keep these things somewhat separate from

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Speaker 3: our day to day lives, we can develop more of

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Speaker 3: a sort of fear and anxiety about them because they're

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Speaker 3: more foreign to us.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you speak about cultures because I think about

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Speaker 1: in the Shri Lannkan culture, there's a thing called danes

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of this it's kind of like a

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Speaker 1: death anniversary. And I know this is probably more of

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Speaker 1: a Buddhist lens, because that's quite a Buddhism is really

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Speaker 1: culturally ingrained in the Sri Lunkan culture. So it's usually

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Speaker 1: when there's like monks that come in and everyone wears white,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there's a ritual process that comes together

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Speaker 1: where loved ones come together and really honor and celebrate

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Speaker 1: the life that was. And I think that's really special

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Speaker 1: because exactly what you were talking about before, it's like

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Speaker 1: there's always a remembering of the people that have passed,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that you know, we should bring more

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Speaker 1: into the Western world. There's so much we can learn

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Speaker 1: from other cultures.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and as you're saying that, we have something very

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Speaker 3: similar in Greek culture where on the anniversary of the

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Speaker 3: death will we will go to church. I mean, my

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Speaker 3: background is Greek Orthodox, so we have traditions and sort

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Speaker 3: of processes around how we grieve, you know, we will

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Speaker 3: wear black, and there is definitely an outward expression of

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Speaker 3: grief and being in a state of mourning, you know,

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Speaker 3: like it's it's not uncommon to see people physically visibly

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Speaker 3: very upset and for the kind of collective group to

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Speaker 3: come together and support one another through that morning process.

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Speaker 3: And we again have a church service at the forty

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Speaker 3: day mark, which is significant in our culture, and then

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Speaker 3: on the year of the anniversary and so on.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful. So I've heard of the five Stages of

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Speaker 1: grief model. I love it. Can you tell us more

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Speaker 1: about it?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I can. I really love the work around five

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Speaker 3: stages of grief. So this was originally done by a

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Speaker 3: lady called Elizabeth Koubler Ross, so it's often referred to

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Speaker 3: as the Kubler Ross model of Stages of grief. And

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Speaker 3: she actually wrote this fundamental text a number of years ago.

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Speaker 3: About actually people who were dying, so before we get

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Speaker 3: to grief sort of people who are dying. It's called

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Speaker 3: on Death and Dying, And then she wrote on Grief

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Speaker 3: and Grieving, and she talks about these stages of grief.

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Speaker 3: But I want to highlight that actually at the start

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Speaker 3: of the book, it's very clearly stated that these stages

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Speaker 3: are not meant to be linear stages that people move through,

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Speaker 3: and they're not meant to be prescriptive but descriptive. So

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Speaker 3: they're meant to describe people's experiences, provide a bit of

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Speaker 3: a scaffold for them to which they might be able

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Speaker 3: to relate to as they go through this process of grieving.

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Speaker 3: But it's certainly not a prescribed model where we would

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Speaker 3: expect to move from one stage to the next. It's

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Speaker 3: much more fluid than that.

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Speaker 1: I really like that because I think it's true, like

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Speaker 1: I feel, grief in itself is such a messy, non

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Speaker 1: linear approach, so I'd like that that's kind of part

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Speaker 1: of the framework.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I think I say that at the start

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Speaker 3: before I go through the stages, because in the way

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Speaker 3: that sort of certain things are packaged and sold these days,

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Speaker 3: we like to sometimes reduce content to its simplest form.

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Speaker 3: And so I have actually seen the stages of grief

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Speaker 3: model talked about as these sort of steps that you follow,

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Speaker 3: and I just want to bust that myth in case

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Speaker 3: anyone thinks that that's the sort of process they should

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Speaker 3: be following. It's not meant to be prescriptive. It's meant

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Speaker 3: to describe a general experience.

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Speaker 1: M okay, So what are these stages you're speaking about?

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Speaker 3: Yes, okay. So the stages are denial. So this is

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Speaker 3: being in a state of not believing that the person

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Speaker 3: has passed away, just simply refusing to believe it to

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Speaker 3: be true. Anger, feeling angry that the person is gone,

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Speaker 3: feeling angry at the circumstances around which they left and died, bargaining,

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Speaker 3: So this sense of if I had only done this,

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Speaker 3: then they would still be here, or if this hadn't

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Speaker 3: have happened, then they would still be here. So this

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Speaker 3: sort of internal tug of war that we feel. Fourth

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Speaker 3: one is depression and a kind of sadness that can

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Speaker 3: overcome us. And then the fifth one is acceptance, and

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Speaker 3: this is a state of accepting and acknowledging that the

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Speaker 3: person has passed. Now I want to be really clear,

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Speaker 3: acceptance is not approval. Acceptance is not me saying it's okay,

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Speaker 3: or I like it or I agree with it. Acceptance

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Speaker 3: is simply me saying it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a really good way to distinguish between the two.

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Speaker 1: I really have found this model super helpful because for

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Speaker 1: me it was more specifically around grieving my old career

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Speaker 1: and also old friends. And I remember, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how I got to it. I must have been in

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Speaker 1: conversation with you, but I was deep in the like

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Speaker 1: I was deep in my grief, and when I found

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Speaker 1: this model and I was looking at it, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm in the denial phase. Oh, that's when I was angry.

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Speaker 1: And it was just really nice for my mind to

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Speaker 1: kind of have a bit of a concept around what

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Speaker 1: I was going through, because it can be a lot,

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Speaker 1: and especially when you haven't gone through a level of

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Speaker 1: grief before, sometimes a bit more language and awareness really

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Speaker 1: does help. So absolutely, yeah, it's been super supportive for me.

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Speaker 3: Those stages of grief. They don't change the experience for us.

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Speaker 3: They don't sort of tell us how to solve the

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Speaker 3: feeling of grief, but they provide a bit of a cushion,

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Speaker 3: so that if we are experiencing those emotions, we can

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Speaker 3: relate to the fact that this is a universal, common

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Speaker 3: human experience that people go through. I'm not alone in

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Speaker 3: this feeling. I'm not unique in what I'm feeling, and

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Speaker 3: that can provide some comfort for us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: Before we jump on from the stages of grief and

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Speaker 3: talk about other things, I want to actually add that

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Speaker 3: there's been an addition to the five stages of grief,

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Speaker 3: which I don't think is as widely known.

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't know this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's another clinician, David Kesler, who's worked very

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Speaker 3: closely with Elizabeth Koobler Ross, who did the original stages

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Speaker 3: of grief. So they worked together and David Kesler added

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Speaker 3: this sixth stage of grief to the model. And the

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Speaker 3: sixth stage is meaning. Oh, finding meaning in the experience WHOA. Now,

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Speaker 3: David's really clear in saying it's not about finding meaning

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Speaker 3: in that person's death. So's not to say that there

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Speaker 3: is meaning in the fact that someone passed from cancer

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Speaker 3: or you know, was in a car accident or anything

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Speaker 3: awful like that. It's about how we create meaning for

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Speaker 3: ourselves through that experience of grief and that being that

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Speaker 3: sort of final end stage after acceptance. Because he reflected

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Speaker 3: on the fact and David talks about the fact he

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Speaker 3: actually lost his son when his son was twenty one

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Speaker 3: years old, I think it was so he firsthand has

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Speaker 3: experienced intense grief and reflected on this idea that acceptances

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Speaker 3: that final stage doesn't quite feel like enough to be

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Speaker 3: able to get to a place of Okay, well it

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Speaker 3: is what it is. So this additional stage of meaning

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Speaker 3: really adds a layer of being able to kind of

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Speaker 3: find and process the experience for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So does that mean with meaning? Does that have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with like gratitude or there was purpose around it? Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, in some ways. So it's not like gratitude in

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Speaker 3: like being grateful for the fact that they're gone. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's about I'm so grateful that I got to spend

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Speaker 3: time with this person. You know, if someone's parent has

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Speaker 3: passed away, I'm so grateful that I got them as

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Speaker 3: a parent in my life. I'm so grateful that we

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Speaker 3: shared these memories. So it can be about gratitude and

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Speaker 3: it can be about sort of finding meaning kind of

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Speaker 3: in the legacy of that person's life as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because what I'm hearing too, it kind

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Speaker 1: of gives another perspective to the process of grief as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think grief is a period or stage

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Speaker 3: or part of life that really kind of can bring

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Speaker 3: up some existential questions for people. It can make them

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Speaker 3: question their own values, morals, spiritual systems that they believe in.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is where meaning and you know,

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Speaker 3: the meaning of life, big questions we're talking about on

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Speaker 3: the podcast Meaning of Life. I know, what's the meaning

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Speaker 3: in suffering and what's the meaning in life as really

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Speaker 3: kind of fundamental concepts to consider.

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Speaker 1: Because I think it's really great that there is this model,

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Speaker 1: and so great to hear this additional stage as well.

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Speaker 1: But it's me thinking about how there really is so

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Speaker 1: many different ways to process grief, like other models, like

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Speaker 1: this model that relates to it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one other key model, and this is kind

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Speaker 3: of referred to as the dual processing model. And in

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Speaker 3: some ways it's a little bit simpler I think it. Well,

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Speaker 3: maybe maybe I take that back, but in some ways

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Speaker 3: it's kind of it's got sort of two parts to it, right,

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Speaker 3: So they refer to kind of the loss orientation part

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Speaker 3: and the restoration orientation part, which actually sounds quite wordy

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Speaker 3: as I say it out loud about.

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Speaker 1: Time, let me break that down a lot of syllables.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So in the loss orientation phase, the person

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Speaker 3: who is grieving engages in the emotions related to grief

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Speaker 3: in terms of the loss of the person or the

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Speaker 3: thing that they're grieving. So this is kind of exploring

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Speaker 3: and expressing those different emotions that they experience, whatever they are.

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Speaker 3: So this is the phase where we're oriented towards the loss,

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Speaker 3: but then there's also a phase where we're oriented towards restoration.

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Speaker 3: So this is the idea of being more sort of

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Speaker 3: problem focused in our coping. It's about sort of thinking

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Speaker 3: about any adjustments we might need to make in our

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Speaker 3: life as a result of the loss. So I guess

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Speaker 3: there's more of a kind of practical problem sort of

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Speaker 3: solving focus in that restoration phase as opposed to the

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Speaker 3: loss orientation phase, which is really about the emotions attached

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Speaker 3: to that grief.

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Speaker 1: So people can show either one of those kind of

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Speaker 1: ways of processing.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's more about the moving between those two kind

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Speaker 3: of different phases or stages and again it not being linear,

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Speaker 3: but just sort of the different phases we can be in,

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Speaker 3: which can kind of explain why when someone is grieving,

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Speaker 3: they might have a day or a moment where they're

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Speaker 3: really like deep in the feelings, and then the next

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Speaker 3: day they might be less attached to those feelings but

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Speaker 3: more sort of problem oriented in terms of trying to

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Speaker 3: solve problems or figure out the direction as to where

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Speaker 3: to from here.

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Speaker 1: That's really helpful to know the two different ways I'm

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Speaker 1: reflecting on my life in the moments I've grieved, I'm like, ah,

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Speaker 1: I was doing that. So with grief, it's usually an

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Speaker 1: emotion that passes by ride like it takes time to

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Speaker 1: move through it. But can you ever get stuck in grief?

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Speaker 2: Hm?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And this is where I don't want to necessarily

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Speaker 3: say like there's a right or wrong way to believe. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but there can be an unhealthy grief experience that some

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Speaker 3: people can develop where they can absolutely, as you said,

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Speaker 3: get stuck in the emotional experience. And so we actually

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Speaker 3: kind of have a clinical definition for this. We call

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Speaker 3: it prolonged grief disorder. It was previously referred to as

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Speaker 3: complicated grief. But not sure how I feel about that

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Speaker 3: sort of title. So it's now prolonged grief disorder, and

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Speaker 3: it's this idea that grief is natural and normal. However,

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Speaker 3: some people can get really stuck in the experience to

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Speaker 3: the point where it is impact in their day to

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Speaker 3: day life. So some of the signs or symptoms we

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Speaker 3: might look at to diagnose a prolonged grief disorder are

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Speaker 3: things like an identity disruption. So the person who's grieving

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Speaker 3: almost feeling like a part of themselves has died with

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Speaker 3: the person. We see this prolonged feeling and sense of

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Speaker 3: disbelief about the death, just like they just cannot process

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Speaker 3: that it's actually happened. A really strong avoidance of reminders

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Speaker 3: of the person. This is a really key one. No

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Speaker 3: photos in the house, no talking about that person, no

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Speaker 3: objects that might trigger memories relating to that person. A

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Speaker 3: real strong avoidance, which again is a normal and natural

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Speaker 3: part at certain stages to a degree. But we're talking

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Speaker 3: about when someone experiences this for a long time and

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Speaker 3: in a way where it really becomes dysfunctional in their life.

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Speaker 3: And also this experience of sort of feeling like their

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Speaker 3: life is meaningless without that person around. So these are

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Speaker 3: some of the symptoms that we might see for people

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Speaker 3: who are experiencing that prolonged grief disorder, and if that

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Speaker 3: is the case, we as therapists would want to be

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Speaker 3: working with them to help them grieve in a healthier way.

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Speaker 1: So when you say prolonged, like is there because I

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Speaker 1: know we spoke to around there is no timeline on grief.

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Speaker 1: You know it's nonlinear. But is there some criteria where

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it has to be over twelve months

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Speaker 1: or is it a little bit of a gray area.

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Speaker 3: It's a bit gray, but for this we would be

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Speaker 3: looking around the twelvemonth mark.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 3: And again not to say that you know, people can

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Speaker 3: grieve their entire life. It's about how functional or dysfunctional

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Speaker 3: it is in their life.

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Speaker 1: Right. I feel like when we talk about grief naturally,

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Speaker 1: it can be such a heavy and dense topic, right,

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Speaker 1: But I think what I'm really hearing, especially in our conversation,

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Speaker 1: is that it can be It can be a really

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Speaker 1: beautiful perspective too. It can be a celebration of life

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Speaker 1: or impact that someone has had on you, or a

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Speaker 1: previous chapter that you've gone through in life.

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Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, this is where we get to kind of

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Speaker 3: hold two different or competing emotions at the same time.

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Speaker 3: We can be really sad that someone's no longer around,

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Speaker 3: but hold on to those really positive memories that we've

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Speaker 3: had with them, the gratitude that we have for the

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Speaker 3: fact they've been a part of our life, and share

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Speaker 3: their wisdom with us or shared memories with us. So

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Speaker 3: it can be really important through the grieving process at

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Speaker 3: certain points to be able to hold both those different feelings.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the basics. How do we actually

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Speaker 1: grieve in a healthy way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't want to prescribe how people should grieve,

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Speaker 3: but there are some things we can do to help

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Speaker 3: us along the way when it comes to grief. So

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Speaker 3: the first kind of tip I would give when it

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Speaker 3: comes to grief is as hard as it is, allow

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Speaker 3: the feelings to be there, the anger, the resentment, the frustration,

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Speaker 3: the sadness, the desperation, whatever it is, whatever the mess

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Speaker 3: of emotions are, let them be there. It really helps

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Speaker 3: in order for us to be able to process grief,

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Speaker 3: to process any emotional experience, to be able to feel

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Speaker 3: it fully and to sort of come out the other

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Speaker 3: end of it. That feeling that intense feeling that you

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Speaker 3: might feel in that moment. It won't last forever. It

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Speaker 3: will come, you will feel it like a wave, and

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Speaker 3: it will eventually die down. The grief may be there forever,

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Speaker 3: but the intensity of the emotions won't.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. I really love this and I have

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Speaker 1: all these little catchphrases I do for myself, but one

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Speaker 1: of the things I say is feel it to heal it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it might be rant into a friend

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Speaker 1: on a phone, or crying in a shower. Not speaking

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Speaker 1: from experience, but you know, even having a hot shower,

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Speaker 1: like the water is so cleansing, it does something to me.

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Speaker 3: You're talking a bit about maybe self soothing is totally right.

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Speaker 3: So I think self soothing is absolutely a part of

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Speaker 3: giving ourselves comfort through the process of grieving. Having the

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Speaker 3: warm shower that feels like a warm hug while we're crying,

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Speaker 3: you know, or finding the scentered candles, the smells, the

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Speaker 3: textures that are really sort of comforting and soothing for

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Speaker 3: us in those moments where we're deep in the feelings. Totally,

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Speaker 3: a couple of other things people can do to help

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Speaker 3: themselves through the grief process is where possible. And again

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Speaker 3: I'm not prescribing, but where possible, try to maintain routines.

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Speaker 3: This doesn't mean that you need to get up and

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Speaker 3: go to work every day, because maybe you take some

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Speaker 3: time off work, but getting up, brushing your teeth, having

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Speaker 3: a shower, the basic sort of routines of day to

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Speaker 3: day self care, the fundamentals of self care. We really

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Speaker 3: want to try and keep those in check because our body,

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Speaker 3: our brain, our emotional nervous system is going through this

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Speaker 3: intense period and so we want to do what we

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Speaker 3: can to physically look after ourselves throughout that process. So

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Speaker 3: making sure you're eating where you can, making sure you're

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Speaker 3: trying to sleep where you can, having the basic structures

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Speaker 3: of routine still in place where possible.

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Speaker 1: I really love that because it's essentially stripping things back

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Speaker 1: a bit and really checking in on the capacity that

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Speaker 1: you do have, because it would be different when you're grieving.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely absolutely. And in addition, if people can, and

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Speaker 3: maybe if people sort of are a little creative in

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Speaker 3: their own sort of personality and spirit, they can be

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Speaker 3: really creative ways to help with the grieving process. It

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Speaker 3: might be painting, it might be drawing, it might be journaling,

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Speaker 3: it might be a letter writing to the person who's

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Speaker 3: passed away. It might be you know, singing, it could

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Speaker 3: be anything. There are so many different ways that we

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Speaker 3: can lean into creativity to help us process emotions, including grief.

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Speaker 1: I really love that we can bring that creative element

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Speaker 1: to it as well, because I think I know for me,

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Speaker 1: I've definitely leaned into that when I've been grieving. I've

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Speaker 1: done written letters and I've like torn it up, or

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Speaker 1: I've used fire. I love using elements. So far it's

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Speaker 1: been really good. I've like thrown flowers in the water

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Speaker 1: like little rituals, which kind of again adds that beautiful

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Speaker 1: element to it and kind of lifts it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, love that.

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Speaker 1: So with these tips that you've provided, essentially you're telling

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Speaker 1: us to lean into the grief.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, as hard as it is where we can,

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Speaker 3: I mean, and there will be times where people don't

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Speaker 3: need to lean into it because it's just there sort

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Speaker 3: of smacking them in the face, right, they don't have

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Speaker 3: a choice, they're grieving. But yes, And the reason I

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Speaker 3: say that is because when we think about that prolonged

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Speaker 3: grief disorder or the kind of unhealthy ways of grieving,

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Speaker 3: one of the key features we find is the avoidance.

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Speaker 3: People avoid grieving because fair enough, it's so painful. Who

438
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 3: wants to feel that way?

439
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,239
Speaker 1: You know?

440
00:23:03,639 --> 00:23:05,799
Speaker 3: Who wants to be reminded of the fact that that

441
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 3: person's no longer around, or of the loss that they're experiencing,

442
00:23:09,159 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: even if it's not the passing of a loved one,

443
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 3: the loss that they've experienced. So what we see is

444
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 3: that people will avoid reminders of the grief of the loss,

445
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 3: which can provide some relief in the short term. If

446
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: I avoid something, I don't have to deal with it,

447
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: I don't have to think about it, I don't have

448
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: to feel it. But in the long run, it creates

449
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: this unhealthy pattern for us where those emotions are still

450
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 3: in there somewhere, but they're being suppressed, they're not being expressed,

451
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: and we need to feel the emotions and express them

452
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 3: to be able to work through them. So the key

453
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: thing I look out for if I'm working with someone

454
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 3: who is grieving is whether or not they're leaning more

455
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: towards the avoidance side or they're able to not avoid.

456
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: And if people are avoiding, we will find ways to

457
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 3: gradually help them avoid less. So I will actually sometimes

458
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,759
Speaker 3: prescribe homework to someone where I say, I want you

459
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 3: to go home and find a photo of you and

460
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,719
Speaker 3: the person that's passed and just spend a couple of

461
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 3: minutes looking at it and thinking about them. Or I

462
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,759
Speaker 3: want you to play a song that you know that

463
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 3: that person likes. Just play it and have a listen

464
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: to it. Or I want you to write in a

465
00:24:20,919 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: journal about one memory, key memory that you have. Or

466
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 3: I want you to, you know, take a jumper that

467
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 3: they used to have and wear that. So anything, it

468
00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: could be anything, but something that helps that person break

469
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: the cycle of avoidance so that they can connect to

470
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: the loved one that they've lost and the process of

471
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 3: the grieving.

472
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: So when we think of grief, do we actually need

473
00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: to find closure?

474
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: That's a good question. Yeah, closure can be nice, but

475
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 3: closure is not always possible. Unfortunately, we don't always get closure.

476
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: And this is not just in relation to grieving people

477
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 3: who've passed, but grieving losses. If I grieve the loss

478
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 3: of a job that maybe I lost, maybe I never

479
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,759
Speaker 3: really get the closure as to why I lost that

480
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: job or why that friendship ended. We don't always get

481
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: closure in life. So this idea that we need closure,

482
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: I think is potentially a problematic one because it means

483
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: that we might get stuck in a state of seeking

484
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: that closure and trying to find it, and maybe there

485
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 3: is no answer that we will ever be able to find.

486
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: So closure is not always possible. So I think we

487
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 3: need to let go of the idea that we need

488
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: closure when it comes to grief and grieving someone who's passed.

489
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: This idea of letting go is a bit outdated. Yeah,

490
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: I've often heard people say, you know, you need to

491
00:25:44,399 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 3: let it go, you need to move on right, often

492
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 3: said with good intention but not always particularly helpful. We

493
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: don't need to let it go. In actual fact, I

494
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: think it can be really healthy for people to feel

495
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: like they are still connected to the person who's passed.

496
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,999
Speaker 3: That could be through you know, having a mini die

497
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: with them in their mind, talking to them, you know,

498
00:26:08,159 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 3: if someone believes in religion and heaven, sort of talking

499
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 3: to them as if they're in heaven in some sort

500
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 3: of afterlife, writing letters to them, anything that you can

501
00:26:18,399 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: do to sort of stay connected to that person can

502
00:26:20,679 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 3: actually be really healthy through the process of grief.

503
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: Birb bib Bibi impoving a serious Christians.

504
00:26:32,679 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 3: BRB having a crisis.

505
00:26:35,679 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer

506
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you, Anastasia, this

507
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: one's from Riley.

508
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: One of my close friends recently lost someone really important

509
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: to them, and I can tell they're going through it,

510
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 4: but they're also really sensitive, and I don't know how

511
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 4: to bring it up without making things worse. Sometimes they

512
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 4: seem totally fine, like they're bacs normal, and other times

513
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: I can see them kind of shut down or go quiet,

514
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 4: but they're not really talking about it, and I don't

515
00:27:02,879 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 4: want to push. At the same time, I don't want

516
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 4: to ignore it and pretend like everything's fine and nothing's happened.

517
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 4: I guess I just feel a bit stuck. What's the

518
00:27:11,679 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 4: right way to be there for someone who's grieving, especially

519
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 4: when they're not showing it in the ways people usually expect.

520
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 4: I don't want to say the wrong thing or make

521
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 4: them feel like they have to explain themselves, but I

522
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 4: also don't want them to feel alone. What do I do?

523
00:27:25,919 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 1: Oh, this one's really hard. It's so relatable. Yeah, I

524
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: feel like it's always really hard to know how to

525
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: approach someone who's grieving.

526
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, and people can sometimes be fearful of asking

527
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: questions or talking about it because they don't want to

528
00:27:39,159 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: remind their friend or they loved one of the grief

529
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 3: that they're experiencing. So there is a natural tendency to

530
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: avoid because we don't want to upset someone. Riley, I

531
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: would suggest, first up, be patient with their experiences. From

532
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: what you're describing, the experience might change day to day.

533
00:27:55,639 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: Some days they may seem fine and like they can

534
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: just sort of quote unquote get on with life, and

535
00:28:00,919 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: other days they might be deep in the emotion. So

536
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: be patient with the consistencies as to how your friend

537
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 3: might show up at this moment. I'd say let them

538
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 3: set the pace. Some people in the early stages of

539
00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 3: grief are much more happy to and willing to talk

540
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: about their grieving and share their grieving with others. Other

541
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: people will take a much slower pace when it comes

542
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 3: to being able to share that with someone else. So

543
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: let them set the pace as to how fast or

544
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: slow they want to move with being able to talk

545
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: about it. Be present with them. Often the best thing

546
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: we can give someone is our attention, our presence, to

547
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: show them that we're listening and that we care. By

548
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: simply being with them, It's not so much what we say.

549
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: Avoid the kind of platitudes of these things happen for

550
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 3: a reason or time heals everything. You know. They're said

551
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 3: with good intentions, they're well meaning, but they're often not

552
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: that helpful. The best thing we can often do is

553
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: just be there to listen to someone. And I would

554
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: also recommend ask your friend what's gonna work best for them?

555
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: Do they want you to be regularly checking in, do

556
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: they want to sort of talk about this person who's

557
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: passed away, or would they prefer that you be a

558
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: friend where they can just sort of distract themselves and

559
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: talk about other things. So just ask the best way

560
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 3: that you can support them.

561
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 1: Let us know how you go. Riley, Anastasia, can you

562
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: reiterate on the main takeaways from today's episode?

563
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,999
Speaker 3: I sure can so. First of all, grief, loss, and

564
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 3: pain are hard and inevitable parts of everyone's life. Secondly,

565
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: while grief is highly personal and there's no right way

566
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: to grieve, there are some unhealthy ways.

567
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: That we can grieve.

568
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,039
Speaker 3: Third, the stages of grief can provide a scaffolding, but

569
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: not a firm roadmap for navigating grief. Fourth, leaning into

570
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: the uncomfortable emotions that grief brings about can help us

571
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 3: actually process the grief. And lastly, you don't need to let.

572
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: Go If you have a burning question for us, there

573
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: are a few ways to get in touch with us,

574
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: links through in the show notes.

575
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't

576
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we

577
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: present here should always take into account your personal medical history.

578
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: In next week's episode, we're going to be talking about

579
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,759
Speaker 1: bullying and what to do when you're experiencing it as

580
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: an adult. Stay tuned for that episode, dropping next Saturday.

581
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 3: The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Tarlie Blackman.

582
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: Executive producer is Naima Brown and Jemma Donna, who is

583
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: our social producer.

584
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: Sound design and editing by Tina Matdealogue.

585
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at

586
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 1: but Are You Happy Pod? I'm a Shani Dante.

587
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus. The names and stories of

588
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

589
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,

590
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: we have links for more resources in the show notes

591
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach

592
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're

593
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,039
Speaker 3: wanting more immediate support. If you're wanting additional resources on grief,

594
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: visit Grief Australia.

595
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.

596
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

597
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: waters that this podcast is recorded on