Speaker 1: You know, I was putting up with behaviors that some
Speaker 1: people might be like, I would never put up with that,
Speaker 1: Like what like you know, I talk about how a
Speaker 1: lot of the times, like just even in sex or
Speaker 1: just like the relationships that I was like chasing, the
Speaker 1: guys would just not treat me very nicely and like yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, not really respectful and kind of you know,
Speaker 1: lead me on and ghost me, and then I would
Speaker 1: just come crawling back, or I'd like whatever they wanted
Speaker 1: to do, I would just you know, pander to them.
Speaker 2: This week on No Filter, you might think you already
Speaker 2: know my guest. She's the voice behind the hook Up
Speaker 2: on Triple J, where she's spent years talking about love,
Speaker 2: sex and modern relationships. She's built a reputation for being honest,
Speaker 2: direct and very clear about one thing women should not
Speaker 2: be settling. But there's also another version of her that
Speaker 2: exists out in the world, one shaped by headlines common
Speaker 2: and a level of scrutiny that comes with dating. One
Speaker 2: of the most visible mean in Australian sport. D Salmon
Speaker 2: is in a relationship with Collingwood Captain Darcy Moore, and
Speaker 2: over the past few years their relationship has been picked
Speaker 2: apart in a very public way, from how they live
Speaker 2: to how they love to what she believes. It's all
Speaker 2: been up for debate, and D hasn't exactly stayed quiet.
Speaker 2: She's pushed back, she's leant in and at times completely
Speaker 2: reclaimed the narrative. So today this is a conversation about
Speaker 2: D her life, her relationships, the moments that shaped her,
Speaker 2: and what she's learned from years of talking to other
Speaker 2: people about theirs. Because when you strip everything else away,
Speaker 2: what D is really interested in is this, how do
Speaker 2: you build a life and a relationship that actually feels
Speaker 2: right for you? This is D Salmon.
Speaker 3: D Salmon, welcome to No Filter. Thank you. I am
Speaker 3: so honored to be here.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm thrilled to have you, but I'm also a
Speaker 2: little bit apprehensive because I have.
Speaker 3: Been reading your book. Yes, well I've read it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's not love Actually Great Name, Great Name, which
Speaker 2: is described as.
Speaker 3: Part memoir, part manifesto.
Speaker 2: Fascinating read and very much in your space of relationships
Speaker 2: and the psychology of relationships, but also you really open
Speaker 2: yourself up in it about your own relationship and how
Speaker 2: you came to that. But then I read a bit
Speaker 2: that made me go, oh, does she know she's coming
Speaker 2: on no filter? Because I read these right. Honestly, I'd
Speaker 2: let you put me in the chokey with Matilda before
Speaker 2: you catch me having a vulnerable conversation.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I was saying? Time in this morning,
Speaker 3: I was like, how are you feeling?
Speaker 1: Because I've done a few interviews, I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: so nervous for this one because i just think you
Speaker 1: are such a great interviewer and I think it is
Speaker 1: such a skill set that you have to be able
Speaker 1: to really open people up and get deep.
Speaker 3: And I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm nervous because I'm like,
Speaker 1: like I said, I.
Speaker 3: Really struggled with.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 2: Even though I read every single Brene Brown book on vulnerability,
Speaker 2: I still find having honest, difficult conversations really hard to do.
Speaker 3: They make my skin crawl. Really why why?
Speaker 1: I think it's just what I've learned. I think it's
Speaker 1: just like my nervous system goes into fight or flight
Speaker 1: and I freeze. Quite I find them quite like. It's
Speaker 1: not even logic. It's like it's something deeper, primal thing.
Speaker 1: It's a primal thing I can't survive.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it's like my heart races, I freeze, I
Speaker 1: find I like almost got to cry. Like sometimes if
Speaker 1: I know that I have to have a difficult conversation with,
Speaker 1: whether it's a friend or a partner, like can automatically
Speaker 1: just start crying because.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: I think it's just what I've maybe learned about difficult conversations,
Speaker 1: or like the vulnerability of them, or maybe not having
Speaker 1: them received well.
Speaker 3: I don't know. You know that, you know?
Speaker 2: They say, for instance, with allergies, that often people are
Speaker 2: attracted to what they're allergic to, so that if you're
Speaker 2: you know, you shouldn't have sugar, you'll have a huge
Speaker 2: sweet tooth or whatever. You're allergic to cats if you
Speaker 2: just want yes, like my husband who's allergic to cats
Speaker 2: and loves cats right but can't have Yeah. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: have immersed yourself in a space where vulnerability and openness
Speaker 2: and a prepare irridness to go into those dart and
Speaker 2: secret corners is essential.
Speaker 1: I know, because I'm so I've always been so drawn
Speaker 1: to psychology. I've always been so drawn to relationships and
Speaker 1: love and the way that people find each other and
Speaker 1: the way that it is so nuanced and complicated, and
Speaker 1: I find that so incredibly interesting. But I've always been
Speaker 1: on the other side of that, right, Like I am
Speaker 1: a trained journalist.
Speaker 3: I love asking people about it.
Speaker 1: I love having those vulnerable conversations with other people. But
Speaker 1: this is the first time that I've actually really written
Speaker 1: quite vulnerably, and I've I've talked about stuff that I've
Speaker 1: never spoken about before. And usually on the hook up
Speaker 1: it's yeah, I'm on the other side and I'm chatting
Speaker 1: to people about their stories, and I love it.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 1: I'm like you, I love having, you know, really deep
Speaker 1: and vulnerable conversations.
Speaker 2: But when yeah, you know what I mean, Well, when
Speaker 2: you decided to do the book, what was the genesis
Speaker 2: of that?
Speaker 3: Then I feel.
Speaker 1: Like I'm coming to a place where I've been at
Speaker 1: the hook Cup now for nearly seven years. I've been
Speaker 1: at the ABC for nearly ten. I just feel like
Speaker 1: I'm coming to a bit of a graduation moment, Like
Speaker 1: i feel like I've gone through a lot in my twenties.
Speaker 3: I've really learned a lot.
Speaker 1: I've interviewed so many people, I've interviewed so many experts,
Speaker 1: and last year, the idea kind of came to me.
Speaker 1: It's something that I always knew I wanted to do,
Speaker 1: but maybe didn't have the confidence to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: who are you to, you know, write a bit of
Speaker 1: a dating guide and who are you to you know,
Speaker 1: try and encourage women with their sex and relationships. But
Speaker 1: I think last year I really felt like I had
Speaker 1: learned enough. I felt like I had It wasn't as
Speaker 1: much imposter syndrome anymore. I felt like I really believed
Speaker 1: that I had something of value to add and hopefully
Speaker 1: share with the world.
Speaker 2: Because you have immersed yourself, I mean if you do.
Speaker 2: You know, they say, if you do the thing that
Speaker 2: you love for five minutes a day, in five years,
Speaker 2: you'll be actually, I think it's an hour.
Speaker 3: I've mentally just gone off five. That's my duo lingo.
Speaker 2: That within five years you'll be at the top of
Speaker 2: your field. Yeah, because you have immersed yourself in that world.
Speaker 3: You know a lot.
Speaker 1: I think when you yeah, when you realize like I've
Speaker 1: spent nearly seven years, every single day, every single week,
Speaker 1: talking to young people from all over Australia and the
Speaker 1: world as well, and you know, psychologists and sex educators,
Speaker 1: and we've covered every single topic under the song that
Speaker 1: you could possibly imagine. And that's been such a privilege
Speaker 1: about The Hookup is that there is nothing that we
Speaker 1: can't talk about, and I think it is one of
Speaker 1: the only podcasts in mainstream Australian media where we can
Speaker 1: have those real, vulnerable and difficult conversations and talk about
Speaker 1: taboo topics. And yeah, I feel I do feel quite
Speaker 1: sure that if anything, I have enough.
Speaker 3: I have learned enough to be able to share that
Speaker 3: with the world.
Speaker 4: But to.
Speaker 2: Write about dating and relationship relationships, you know, in the
Speaker 2: third person, is very different than what you've done in
Speaker 2: the book, which is you brought yourself to it and
Speaker 2: some of it. I was like, just knowing you through
Speaker 2: the hook Up and through the media, through your relationship
Speaker 2: with Darcy Moore, who's a footballer, and not just any footballer.
Speaker 2: I hasten to add I'm going to controlled for that,
Speaker 2: but I was like, oh my god, she's writing about
Speaker 2: her UTIs like, that's full of well.
Speaker 3: I wanted to walk the walk.
Speaker 1: I think I've been so privileged to hear from so
Speaker 1: many people about their darkest, most deepest secrets and the
Speaker 1: most vulnerable moments, and I think I feel secure enough
Speaker 1: in myself to know that being able to share those
Speaker 1: those vulnerable parts of my life and those things that
Speaker 1: maybe there are a bit of shame around or there are,
Speaker 1: you know, things that are quite personal that hopefully, knowing
Speaker 1: what I've learned from so many people, they might learn
Speaker 1: the same. And I've just I have always felt really
Speaker 1: strongly about having these conversations and talking about taboo things
Speaker 1: and things that aren't really spoken about, and especially when
Speaker 1: it comes to things that women experience. I think that
Speaker 1: you know, like for the UTIs, for example, there's still
Speaker 1: so much medical misogyny around that and this idea that
Speaker 1: you know, you just have some cranberry juice and we
Speaker 1: don't know enough and we're not taught enough, and it's
Speaker 1: not spoken about enough. And it was a really traumatic
Speaker 1: experience for me having chronic UTIs, and I had no
Speaker 1: one that I had seen speak out about that in
Speaker 1: the media when I was going through it, And I
Speaker 1: just think that if I had heard someone speak about it,
Speaker 1: or if I had known more, it wouldn't have gotten
Speaker 1: to a chronic place.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also one thing with before instance a UTI,
Speaker 2: when you're single and you're dating and you can just
Speaker 2: pull yourself out of the situation for a while. I
Speaker 2: drink your crand fridges and pray, right. But it's another
Speaker 2: when you're in a relationship and you're navigating the sexual
Speaker 2: aspect and intimacy aspect of things, then you have to
Speaker 2: draw someone else into the conversation and into your world
Speaker 2: that you said is often filled with sort of shame
Speaker 2: and secrecy. But when you were going to write about
Speaker 2: things publicly, when you made the decision to step into
Speaker 2: showing yourself, did you who did you have to have
Speaker 2: conversations with to say, listen, this book, this book that
Speaker 2: I was writing about other people is now going to
Speaker 2: be about me and us.
Speaker 1: I yeah, I had. I was really really lucky that
Speaker 1: Darcy was so supportive and he was with me every
Speaker 1: step of the way of writing this book. He's an
Speaker 1: incredible writer and editor himself, so he was like, you know,
Speaker 1: helping me through the editing process, and he read it
Speaker 1: about ten times and there were parts that we cut out,
Speaker 1: and there were parts that he was really generous with
Speaker 1: letting me share. And that goes to my parents as
Speaker 1: well well your.
Speaker 2: Parents in the world, because you talk about and I
Speaker 2: mean everyone's life is very formatively shaped by what they've
Speaker 2: seen modeled in their family or their guardianship, whatever. How
Speaker 2: did you had to pick apart which I gathered already
Speaker 2: done in therapy. Yeah, yeah, analyzed the machinations and the
Speaker 2: way that your family, your parents related to each other.
Speaker 3: How did the conversation.
Speaker 2: With them go when you said I'm going to talk
Speaker 2: about what I learned, not all of it positive.
Speaker 1: Well, like even saying I'm really bad at having vulnerable.
Speaker 3: So that was the thing that I was the most
Speaker 3: nervous about. And I think because they're still in wa. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: still in wa.
Speaker 1: And I think it was because I knew, you know,
Speaker 1: when you love people so much, the last thing you want.
Speaker 3: To do is hurt them.
Speaker 1: And I knew that there was potential that it would
Speaker 1: with what I shared about my parents and my upbringing
Speaker 1: and their relationship and the effect it had on me,
Speaker 1: And so I left it to the very last minute.
Speaker 3: I had my editors being like, oh, you mean it
Speaker 3: was written?
Speaker 1: It was all written. The process of writing was a
Speaker 1: very like closed off just me, Like it was like me,
Speaker 1: Darcy would read it.
Speaker 3: I had one other friend that read it. That was it.
Speaker 3: No one knew I was writing, No one knew I
Speaker 3: wrote the book.
Speaker 1: It was like a very I just wanted to write
Speaker 1: with no expectation of feelings that.
Speaker 3: I would hurt.
Speaker 1: And you know, because I am quite a people pleaser
Speaker 1: and I do care so much about people's feelings, and
Speaker 1: so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't
Speaker 1: impacted or that wasn't influencing the things that.
Speaker 3: I wanted to really write about. And so I just
Speaker 3: wanted to write it all out and then I would.
Speaker 1: Deal with the conversations of the people that I've spoken
Speaker 1: about and the repercussions of that.
Speaker 3: And so as I.
Speaker 1: Had finished my draft and manuscripts made it as were like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know you need to you need to get every
Speaker 1: client across the stories that you're sharing and make.
Speaker 3: Sure to contextualize it. It was not.
Speaker 2: The story that you tell about your family was not shocking,
Speaker 2: but it was intimate, and it was about that your
Speaker 2: father would often withhold affection if someone had done something
Speaker 2: that merited his disapproval.
Speaker 3: To your mom, and your mum was like the peacekeeper.
Speaker 2: Your mom was the homemaker, yeah, your dad was the provider.
Speaker 3: Yes. So it was very traad in that sense exactly.
Speaker 1: And the story I share is to give context for
Speaker 1: the reader around, because a lot of the book is
Speaker 1: about dating and why we might date people that aren't
Speaker 1: great for us, and why do we end up in
Speaker 1: these dynamics. And you might be listening and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I constantly, you know, chase guys or whoever you're dating
Speaker 1: that you know don't seem to want to commit or
Speaker 1: kind of hold me at arm's length through a bit
Speaker 1: of void and or whatever. And I seem to have
Speaker 1: found myself in this cycle of you know, desperately longing
Speaker 1: for a partner, but then always kind of chasing the
Speaker 1: people that didn't really want to be with me.
Speaker 3: And so to kind of provide a bit of context
Speaker 3: around like why I was stuck in this cycle and
Speaker 3: why you know, I was putting.
Speaker 1: Up with behaviors that some people might be like I
Speaker 1: would never put up with that, Like what Like you know,
Speaker 1: I talk about how a lot of the times, like
Speaker 1: just even in sex or just like the relationships that
Speaker 1: I was like chasing, the guys would just not treat
Speaker 1: me very nicely and like, you know, not really respectful
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, lead me on and ghost me.
Speaker 1: And then I would just come crawling back, or I'd
Speaker 1: like whatever they wanted to do, I would just you know,
Speaker 1: pander to them. Or the Jimmy Hendrix guy, yeah, the
Speaker 1: guy who just plays albums for two hours and.
Speaker 4: Repeating like you were just like waiting there like sure,
Speaker 4: this is great, I love this, like you know, never
Speaker 4: never really speaking up for myself and never really being
Speaker 4: like I don't what are you doing, Like I don't
Speaker 4: want to do this.
Speaker 1: It was always just trying to make sure that like
Speaker 1: I was getting any sort of attention or affection from them,
Speaker 1: even if it was you know, disrespect or they weren't
Speaker 1: treating me very well. And so to give a bit
Speaker 1: of context, I guess to the reader around why that was,
Speaker 1: I had to talk about the fact that we learned
Speaker 1: from our earliest caregivers about love and relationships. And I
Speaker 1: had learned from my parents that you know, love was
Speaker 1: withheld and it was hot and conditional, and that was
Speaker 1: what I had seen growing up, and so that was
Speaker 1: when I first started dating, like what I was chasing
Speaker 1: and what it's all I knew.
Speaker 2: Speaking of your dad when you told him, how he
Speaker 2: was contextualized in the book in terms of how it
Speaker 2: affected you, How was he about that.
Speaker 1: He was really supportive my mom, Both my mum and
Speaker 1: him were really supportive. They like, we'd gone to family
Speaker 1: therapy nout of this was new. I think it definitely
Speaker 1: would have hit them a bit like it would have.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not something that you want to hear.
Speaker 1: And I think that they have always kind of felt
Speaker 1: that way of you know, this was never ever. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's any parent's intention to ever cause you know,
Speaker 1: upset to their child.
Speaker 3: And so I.
Speaker 1: Think they were not hurt that I had written it,
Speaker 1: but hurt about that that happened. But we've done so
Speaker 1: much healing as a family, and I just, yeah, I
Speaker 1: will be forever so grateful that they've been so generous
Speaker 1: with allowing me to share some pretty vulnerable things.
Speaker 2: Did your dad recognize the truth of himself?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we've had conversations about that and
Speaker 1: in therapy and you know, over the years, and I
Speaker 1: love my parents, and I talk about intergenerational trauma, and
Speaker 1: I know, having gone to therapy, like how much of
Speaker 1: some of the things that he.
Speaker 3: Experienced and hear his child hood Russia.
Speaker 1: Russia really impacted the way that he showed up in
Speaker 1: relationships and you know, my parents were both so they
Speaker 1: were in their like mom was twenty seven when they
Speaker 1: had when she was pregnant with me, and they.
Speaker 3: Like culturally like barely really knew each other. They didn't
Speaker 3: speak the same language. And they they got engaged really quickly. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they'd spent ten days together, all they didn't speak the
Speaker 3: same language.
Speaker 1: They like moved to Australia, foreign country for my dad,
Speaker 1: and they mom accidentally felt pregnant with me, so they
Speaker 1: both had to give up their careers in ballet.
Speaker 2: And you know, your mom's Australian, so culturally a massive, massive.
Speaker 3: Challenge for her as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they had three under four and yeah,
Speaker 1: we you know, didn't have any money and they lived
Speaker 1: off we lived off Center Link, and so it was
Speaker 1: we had a really kind of difficult child in this
Speaker 1: sense that like it was a very loving childhood, but
Speaker 1: difficult in the sense it was so much happening and
Speaker 1: there was so much pressure and there's so much stress.
Speaker 3: And I, yeah, understand so much.
Speaker 1: Now as an adult and having had done this work,
Speaker 1: like they were definitely PERIODSI. I was angry at my parents,
Speaker 1: but having done all this work and gone to therapy
Speaker 1: as a family.
Speaker 2: And realizing and trying to reinvent themselves.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and they were doing their best, and so
Speaker 1: much of it is loon't behavior from their families. And
Speaker 1: you know, my dad was six when he was taken
Speaker 1: away from his family and put it to a ballet school.
Speaker 2: Wow, was it hard for your mum because she was
Speaker 2: the conduit really who also struggled with his periods of exclusion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: But this, yeah, like I said, this is conversations that
Speaker 1: we've had for a while now. And my parents are
Speaker 1: such incredible role models, like they see psychologists, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's it's seeing them work so hard to heal
Speaker 1: themselves and to change patterns and show up in a
Speaker 1: different capacity For me, and like, you know, there's been
Speaker 1: so much healing that we've done, and that in itself,
Speaker 1: seeing them, even in their sixties be able to go like,
Speaker 1: we've still got work to do and we're still you know, working.
Speaker 3: Really hard to show up. And I think that to
Speaker 3: me has been.
Speaker 1: Really inspiring, knowing that like, at no matter age, we've
Speaker 1: always we've always got work to do on ourselves and
Speaker 1: our relationships in the way.
Speaker 2: After this shortbreak, d Salman reveals the startling truth she
Speaker 2: learned about herself in therapy. So when you had started
Speaker 2: unpicking that in therapy, did you share that with your parents?
Speaker 1: Then I went to therapy in covit It was this
Speaker 1: opportunity that I had where I was kind of go,
Speaker 1: go go and never really worked on myself and never
Speaker 1: really thought that deeply about my patterns. And then in COVID,
Speaker 1: like so many people, I had all this time to myself,
Speaker 1: a lot of thinking time. I was in lockdown by
Speaker 1: myself in an apartment and I.
Speaker 3: Just had you just moved from WS. I just moved time.
Speaker 1: I drove across a Nullabo with my mum and at
Speaker 1: the end of twenty nineteen, and then we went into
Speaker 1: lockdown in twenty twenty and I hadn't even found a
Speaker 1: rental yet, so I yeah, stayed at my friend's apartment
Speaker 1: and then he moved to Sydney because he was like,
Speaker 1: fuck this, I'm not dealing with this. And so I
Speaker 1: lived in that apartment by myself for most of that
Speaker 1: year and just yeah, had so much time to think
Speaker 1: and so much time to read, and so much time
Speaker 1: to journal and learn about myself.
Speaker 3: And I did your wheel start to come off a
Speaker 3: bit at that time.
Speaker 1: It was more that I finally just had the space
Speaker 1: right like I had, like I talked about in the book,
Speaker 1: like I had spent my whole life and to that point,
Speaker 1: like from my teen years just like always messing a guy,
Speaker 1: like always chasing affection, whether it was like I was
Speaker 1: seeing someone or dating someone, or had to crush on someone,
Speaker 1: or it was like constantly trying to get some sort
Speaker 1: of attention from men. And this was the first time
Speaker 1: where I didn't. I wasn't on the apps, I wasn't
Speaker 1: messaging anyone, I wasn't chasing it idle. I was just
Speaker 1: genuinely meet and myself and I and so I think
Speaker 1: it was just having the brain space. It was like
Speaker 1: I had the time and the space to just reset and.
Speaker 3: Reflect, which led to boy sober.
Speaker 1: Led to yeah, what I call boy sober, which wasn't
Speaker 1: the term because before that you were boy drunk exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Yes is a phenomenon, not peculiar to you. Yes, you know,
Speaker 2: you say, And it's just a truism that a lot
Speaker 2: of particularly when you're younger, I think a lot of
Speaker 2: conversations with your friends and with other women, and it's
Speaker 2: about boys, who you're dating, who you like, analyzing this
Speaker 2: hyper analytical, A lot of it's bullshit, interpreting what the
Speaker 2: slightest thing means.
Speaker 3: You know, he ate just with a fork and not with.
Speaker 2: A knife, but the knife is the penis.
Speaker 3: That was my life. That was my life.
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, he messaged me saying this,
Speaker 1: like what do you think it means? And like every
Speaker 1: single thing was over analyzed with my friends and they
Speaker 1: would do the same and it was just constant and
Speaker 1: I during that time, during COVID, I went to therapy
Speaker 1: and I realized, like why I was chasing that and.
Speaker 3: What therapy did you start with? And how did you
Speaker 3: know where to start. I had a.
Speaker 1: Friend that I think I was talking to and she
Speaker 1: was like, I've been seeing the psychologist and she changed
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 3: So I went to a psychologist.
Speaker 2: And was that Was there any apprehension associated with that
Speaker 2: given how much we love we know you love to divulge. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in most workings.
Speaker 1: Well I think there was, but I think that when
Speaker 1: when you have someone that you love and you trust,
Speaker 1: I think was the first time that I had had
Speaker 1: someone ever say to me like that. I know had
Speaker 1: gone through similar similar things, and I know I had
Speaker 1: kind of had a similar upbringing, and you know, I
Speaker 1: had issues in relationships too, and for them to say
Speaker 1: like I just and seeing the change in them and
Speaker 1: seeing the way that they were learning to love themselves
Speaker 1: and you know, and I was like, I think, I yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's having someone you trust to be like this.
Speaker 3: This was incredible for me.
Speaker 1: It really gave me the motivation to do it, whereas
Speaker 1: before I probably would have not.
Speaker 2: And also, because you'd had that period of solitude, you'd
Speaker 2: kind of prepared the ground yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly harvest
Speaker 2: that was to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and starting to read a bit more about like
Speaker 1: attachment theory. And because this was at the beginning of
Speaker 1: my hookup journey as well, so I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: up until that point, had been working at the ABC
Speaker 1: and w WA for nearly three years, working in news
Speaker 1: and you know, local regional issues in Bumbrey, and so
Speaker 1: I hadn't fully started to you know, delve into the
Speaker 1: psychology of dating and sex and relationships. And so this
Speaker 1: was like coinciding with me starting at the hookup and
Speaker 1: so having these incredible I started producing. So having all
Speaker 1: these incredible conversations and learning more about it and realizing.
Speaker 3: There's something actually here with me that I need to
Speaker 3: tackle and address as well.
Speaker 2: And what what was the first significant thing that came
Speaker 2: up for you in therapy?
Speaker 3: And I don't mean just the general whatever. I mean
Speaker 3: that you know, the way.
Speaker 2: The truth has a bar, but that will strike at
Speaker 2: a place that is that's never been touched before.
Speaker 3: I think it was.
Speaker 1: Tying my patterns and dating and the kind of guys
Speaker 1: that I would go for the hot and cold to
Speaker 1: my dad, and I had never done that before, and
Speaker 1: it seems so obvious, right, but to me it was
Speaker 1: like this was my early twenties. It was like the
Speaker 1: biggest aha moment ever. And I just cried and cried
Speaker 1: and cried because I think it just it was so profound.
Speaker 1: It was like, of course, like that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1: And then you do the healing around you're in a
Speaker 1: child and you know, you almost in the therapy that
Speaker 1: I was doing, and I was doing MDR as well,
Speaker 1: which is you know.
Speaker 3: I rapid, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: So going, but trying to find memories of the earliest
Speaker 1: moments of that and going back to my childhood and
Speaker 1: realizing like that scared young vulnerable girl who just wanted
Speaker 1: to be loved and trying to you know, as my
Speaker 1: age now come back and meet with her and sit
Speaker 1: with her and talk to her. And it was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was genuinely life changing. Because my first boyfriend that
Speaker 1: I dated when I was eighteen, who I had a
Speaker 1: car accident with which I talked about the book, in
Speaker 1: hindsight like we had broken up by this point, but
Speaker 1: in hindsight, like he.
Speaker 3: Was so hot and cold. He was so hot and cold,
Speaker 3: and the.
Speaker 1: Issue was that we lived three hours apart and he
Speaker 1: didn't really use his phone, and so when we were together,
Speaker 1: when we were together, it was like we're in love.
Speaker 1: He's so affectionate, where like he you know, was the
Speaker 1: love of my life. And then when we were apart,
Speaker 1: which might be for two weeks at a time, he
Speaker 1: would just never call me, he would never text me,
Speaker 1: and he would just you know, disappear off the planet Earth.
Speaker 1: And so I was in this cycle for the period
Speaker 1: of a relationship where like I would just go from
Speaker 1: hot to cold, hot to cold, and it.
Speaker 3: Was so triggering.
Speaker 1: And for someone else that mightn't have been triggering, right,
Speaker 1: like that might have just been like, oh yeah, like
Speaker 1: he's just surfying whatever. But for me, and it's still
Speaker 1: to this day, it's something I've really worked on, but
Speaker 1: that that is so triggering to me when someone goes.
Speaker 2: And also then when they come back, come back, Yeah,
Speaker 2: when they come back to you and you get that
Speaker 2: dopamine heat, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Then you are.
Speaker 2: And I think you you make that that, you make
Speaker 2: that link in your book that it's like the Pokey's Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you get that heat. So then that keeps you coming
Speaker 2: back again.
Speaker 1: And there's so much too that wiring of your brain. Right,
Speaker 1: not only for some people is it learnt from their
Speaker 1: childhood like me, but for others it's stuff that they've
Speaker 1: just seen in TV and pop culture, which I talk about.
Speaker 1: It's like it's so normalized for this bad boy trope
Speaker 1: and for this idea that like love is meant to
Speaker 1: be hard and like, you know, I can change human.
Speaker 3: You might be the one that which I just.
Speaker 1: Really ate up right, Like I loved Chug Bass and
Speaker 1: Gossip Girl, like I loved this idea of like being
Speaker 1: the chosen one and being the girl that or.
Speaker 3: We all love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know that's change him, you know, And
Speaker 1: so that also plays into it and once you start
Speaker 1: to go through those highs and lowers with someone, it
Speaker 1: is so hard to get out, which is why I
Speaker 1: have so much empathy for people who have been in
Speaker 1: abusive relationships, because you really do cling on to those
Speaker 1: really high highs, and you almost excuse the behavior sometimes
Speaker 1: because you just think, like, no, but you know.
Speaker 3: So you're the boy.
Speaker 2: Sober period, which I gather lasted about three years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like over a period of nearly three years.
Speaker 2: And that was no apps, yeah, no, no flirting.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I had sex with my ostereo in the middle of that,
Speaker 1: of which I don't count, right, But how.
Speaker 2: Did that happen? By the way, how do you have
Speaker 2: sex with your OSTEO?
Speaker 3: Well, I was on the table, it wasn't on the table.
Speaker 1: I was seeing him as a client and obviously my
Speaker 1: voiceover period, and it just like over a couple of months,
Speaker 1: turned to flirting, turned to you know, she should come
Speaker 1: over for a dream, which I did, but that was
Speaker 1: a one off thing and.
Speaker 3: I regretted it and anyway.
Speaker 1: Went back to being voice sob and so I spent
Speaker 1: all together, like nearly three years not having sex.
Speaker 3: And then how did you come out of it.
Speaker 2: You said there was a moment where you said to
Speaker 2: your bestie Brendon, I think you went, I'm ready.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just felt like I felt like I had done
Speaker 1: so much work on myself.
Speaker 3: I felt like I'd been in therapy for three years.
Speaker 1: I'd really really spent so much time getting to a
Speaker 1: place where I felt so secure and confident and loved myself,
Speaker 1: and I felt ready, And I genuinely could have you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't want a boyfriend. I could have I could
Speaker 1: have kept going being boys over, but I just I
Speaker 1: was excited about the idea of Like it also was
Speaker 1: kind of coming out of COVID, Like Melbourne went through
Speaker 1: such a dramatic time that it was like spring and
Speaker 1: there were festivals that were starting to happen and it
Speaker 1: was kind of exciting and we were drinking and I
Speaker 1: was like, I think I'm ready, Like I think like
Speaker 1: I just had a switch and spring, Like I felt
Speaker 1: like I'd come out of winter and I had really
Speaker 1: changed as a person and I'd really grown as a person.
Speaker 1: And I was like I always wanted to test as well,
Speaker 1: Like I wanted to see take the new girlfri ad gap, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Take her out on the town.
Speaker 1: And to see like what what the kind of like
Speaker 1: relationships or dating experiences I would then have And it
Speaker 1: was so interesting because like the I went back on
Speaker 1: dating apps and the guys that I like and on
Speaker 1: the odd date with I would straight away just like
Speaker 1: I remember one of the first guys I went on
Speaker 1: a date with. He we went and had dinner, and
Speaker 1: then that weekend he was like, I would love to
Speaker 1: see you again, and I was like I was, I
Speaker 1: was intrigued, I was interested, and he was like, I'd
Speaker 1: love to see you again. Let's look into coffee on
Speaker 1: Sunday morning. And I remember that on Saturday night he
Speaker 1: messaged me saying that he was going out drinking or
Speaker 1: not and that you know, he might not make it
Speaker 1: to coffee and that all he wanted to push it
Speaker 1: back a couple of hours or something, and I just
Speaker 1: messaged him saying like hey, like it was so lovely
Speaker 1: to meet you, but like I don't think this is
Speaker 1: for me, like I wish you all the best. Whereas
Speaker 1: old we would never have done that. I would have
Speaker 1: been like, oh yeah, sure, like no worries, like just
Speaker 1: messaged me when.
Speaker 3: Whenever you're ready.
Speaker 1: I would have been ready, like ready, to go, and
Speaker 1: I was just like, not not for me, Like I
Speaker 1: really admire people who stick to their word, and I
Speaker 1: really admire and I think what I was looking for
Speaker 1: is someone who wanted something a bit more like I
Speaker 1: wasn't looking. I've a relationship with someone who took me
Speaker 1: a bit more seriously and respected me enough to be
Speaker 1: like I made a plan with her, Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to go out drinking all night.
Speaker 3: If I said I'd get coffee with her, I want to.
Speaker 2: Get because that also is death by the house and
Speaker 2: cuts exactly.
Speaker 1: And I said, if this to myself, I was like,
Speaker 1: if this is him day one, I don't want to.
Speaker 2: Know what's two years done, because every one of those
Speaker 2: behaviors is hurting you, even if you don't realize it.
Speaker 1: Well, you're teaching yourself what you deserve, right, Like if
Speaker 1: I had worked so hard on myself to that point
Speaker 1: where I wanted to raise the bar for the behavior
Speaker 1: that I was accepting and the kind of people I
Speaker 1: was potentially going to get intimate with, I was like,
Speaker 1: that's not the behavior that I want to accept, and
Speaker 1: I had, Yeah, it's not about being like.
Speaker 3: Fuck you, like you know, it's just saying Hey, lovely
Speaker 3: to meet you. I don't think this is going to work.
Speaker 2: When you came out into the world and you had
Speaker 2: that you were fresh, was there a difference in the
Speaker 2: way that you got treated?
Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, Like I kind of explained to you,
Speaker 3: there was.
Speaker 1: It was like a period of like three four months
Speaker 1: where I was meeting guys in real life and they
Speaker 1: were asking for my number. They were and they were
Speaker 1: really incredible, beautiful men, and they were taking me out
Speaker 1: on dates and they were genuinely treating me how I
Speaker 1: wanted to be treated. And I don't know whether it
Speaker 1: was that they might have been there in my early
Speaker 1: twenties and I just wasn't interested because I was so
Speaker 1: used to chasing what I was familiar with, or just
Speaker 1: that I I don't know, maybe my energy was different.
Speaker 1: It came across maybe more secure and content in who
Speaker 1: I was and was sure of what I wanted. But
Speaker 1: it was such a shift I can't even tell where
Speaker 1: like it was such a shift, and that obviously led
Speaker 1: to me meeting Darcy as well.
Speaker 3: How did you meet?
Speaker 1: So we met through Do you know Alex Dyson the
Speaker 1: photographer Alex Eison, He's a presentable Jake oh yeah, Alex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know Alex.
Speaker 1: So Darcy you know, came came across me through Alex
Speaker 1: and messaged me. He got my number and then messaged
Speaker 1: me and he like I didn't know who he was,
Speaker 1: and he.
Speaker 3: Was how did he come across you through Alex? Okay,
Speaker 3: so I real? Or no?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: He was like, I was over.
Speaker 1: I was hanging out with Alex and his woman who
Speaker 1: asked Alex about me and then so basically it was
Speaker 1: just like I think stalked my instagram, was intrigued, asked,
Speaker 1: and so he messaged and yeah, basically was like introduced himself,
Speaker 1: said hi, and then he was like, I'd love to
Speaker 1: take you out on a date. And I didn't know
Speaker 1: who was and I you know, kind of stalked a
Speaker 1: bit and googled him and was like, what's this guy's
Speaker 1: deal and saw that he was really intelligent, doing a
Speaker 1: master's studying international politics, and he had just been to
Speaker 1: Iceland and was like, you know, traveling is something that
Speaker 1: I'm really passionate about. And I had been to Iceland
Speaker 1: and saw the northern lights and so that kind of
Speaker 1: intrigued me, and he was like, oh, I'd love to
Speaker 1: take you out we'd love to do a dream and
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, sure, but I'm at this point.
Speaker 1: I was going to Perth for a month over Christmas
Speaker 1: and I was like coming back to Melbourne for a
Speaker 1: night and then going to Tazzi for two weeks. So
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, I've got one night free,
Speaker 1: it's in a month's time and it's Jane eleven.
Speaker 3: If you happen to be free on the day, Like yeah, sure,
Speaker 3: let's do it.
Speaker 1: And then he was like yeah, absolutely looking in and
Speaker 1: I thought, like, you know, I get some messages sometimes
Speaker 1: from guys being like hey whatever.
Speaker 3: I just thought i'll ever hear from him again, like
Speaker 3: you know. And then he.
Speaker 1: Messaged me on New Year's saying Happy New Years and
Speaker 1: like checked in on me. And then he messaged a
Speaker 1: week before the date and wanted to like confirm and yeah,
Speaker 1: we went on the date and just spent like four
Speaker 1: hours like didn't even have one.
Speaker 2: So this is when you google Darcy and realized he
Speaker 2: was an AFL player and not just a friend of
Speaker 2: a friend. Honest reaction, very hesitated variety.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was I was someone who had dated musicians,
Speaker 1: I had dated artists and surfers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was my world.
Speaker 1: I was very into like creatives and men who were
Speaker 1: a bit more thoughtful and artistic. And so I did
Speaker 1: see AFL player and kind of just go, Okay, that's
Speaker 1: not really my type. But then having looked into you know,
Speaker 1: him a bit more and realizing like that we had
Speaker 1: a lot more in common.
Speaker 3: And his master's in you know, political.
Speaker 1: Relations and politics, and like the fact that he was
Speaker 1: so well traveled and so interested in other cultures.
Speaker 3: What was your date? What was it? So organized?
Speaker 1: He organized it right, and it was at the Moon
Speaker 1: in Collingwood, right, and he yeah, basically I think we
Speaker 1: made it like six and then we just like sat
Speaker 1: down and we just talked and NonStop and it was like, yeah, time,
Speaker 1: I didn't even really we didn't even realize. It got
Speaker 1: to like ten pm, and we just got along so
Speaker 1: well and just had so much in common and he
Speaker 1: was he's so well read, and I love reading.
Speaker 3: And so we spoke so much about like books.
Speaker 2: And your crossover with books at that point. So or
Speaker 2: did you not really have a crossover then or in
Speaker 2: what you were both reading?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: I think we were both reading. Yeah, there was. I
Speaker 3: was so surprised.
Speaker 1: There were so many books that he had read that
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we put men in boxes and.
Speaker 3: We thought, oh, they wouldn't have read that book.
Speaker 1: But he because Pride and Prejudice is one of my
Speaker 1: favorite books by Jane Austin.
Speaker 3: So we're talking about that. He's read that.
Speaker 1: And he did literature in high school as well, and
Speaker 1: I studied leading h school and then I went on
Speaker 1: to do it at UNI as well, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: we just shared so many books that we both read
Speaker 1: and loved.
Speaker 3: And you could tell he was really intelligent and thoughtful.
Speaker 1: And then we both loved music so much like he
Speaker 1: loves music, and you know, would realize that there were
Speaker 1: so many gigs that we'd been.
Speaker 3: At that we had cross.
Speaker 1: Yeah, King Sting Ray is one of my favorite bands,
Speaker 1: and we'd both just gone to that gig that they
Speaker 1: dined and didn't even know that we were both there,
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was just it was really very.
Speaker 2: Hard for both of you to miss each other in
Speaker 2: the crowd. By the way, because but also a girlfriend
Speaker 2: of mine, when I told her I was speaking to you,
Speaker 2: she said, one of the things she's most intrigued about
Speaker 2: is that you two look like you could be brother
Speaker 2: and sister.
Speaker 3: Funny you know.
Speaker 2: That your your physiology is so mirroring of each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we probably didn't help each other when we both
Speaker 3: had bleached hair for the first that's right, Yeah, that
Speaker 3: we both had bleach share at the time. But yeah,
Speaker 3: so there were so many moments like that, like we.
Speaker 1: Love musicals and we love theater, and my parents and
Speaker 1: ballet dancers, and you know, he grew up going to
Speaker 1: the ballet his family.
Speaker 3: He's like mum, and and he's got a lot of
Speaker 3: sisters for three sisters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so we just we really got along.
Speaker 1: And then I went to Tazzi and then he messaged
Speaker 1: the next day saying I loved that it, We'd love
Speaker 1: to see you again, and just went from there.
Speaker 2: But then you found yourself in a world. And it's
Speaker 2: interesting because when you're talking about the things that drew
Speaker 2: you to him, you didn't even mention football. Well, it
Speaker 2: doesn't and I don't imagine that you were particularly into football, no,
Speaker 2: But what I.
Speaker 5: Mean is his world is is is like that's the
Speaker 5: apex of male culture, particularly in Melbourne, that team as well.
Speaker 3: Like he's a very unlikely person to be who is.
Speaker 2: In that world. But for then you to come into
Speaker 2: that world. It has been noted that you are a
Speaker 2: very unusual wag.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It's the wives and girlfriends right who come and I
Speaker 2: don't want to paint them with a broad brush, but
Speaker 2: generally there's a template with individual variations. You are not
Speaker 2: in that template, and it's been noted.
Speaker 3: And so you draw the eye and the eye.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in the same way that he does too, right,
Speaker 1: because he doesn't particularly fit the expectation and the stereotype
Speaker 1: of the football.
Speaker 3: I think there's that almost.
Speaker 1: Added weight between both of us together, which then makes
Speaker 1: sense of us being a couple.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: But for me, I don't consider myself a part of
Speaker 1: that world.
Speaker 3: It's my partner's job in the way that I have
Speaker 3: a job.
Speaker 1: I have immense love for the way that he is
Speaker 1: able to captain and be the president of the Players Association,
Speaker 1: and he's just so incredibly intelligent and has so much integrity,
Speaker 1: and I really respect and I do. I have felt
Speaker 1: so welcome in that world by Collingwood, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: love being able to support him and watch him. But
Speaker 1: I have a very very busy life and career as well,
Speaker 1: and so it is just trying to make sure that
Speaker 1: that's you know, both we both show up for each other,
Speaker 1: we both support each other equally.
Speaker 3: But it's I can't make that my world.
Speaker 1: I have my own and I'm like extremely busy, like
Speaker 1: working full time. Plus you know, last year it was
Speaker 1: writing a book full time while I was working for me,
Speaker 1: you know, and like I just I really really value,
Speaker 1: which I talk about in the book Loose as well,
Speaker 1: is like my friendships and my relationships outside of my relationship,
Speaker 1: and so there's so much energy and time that I
Speaker 1: give to my family and to my friends, and you
Speaker 1: know that that takes up a lot of my time
Speaker 1: outside of work as well as looking after myself and
Speaker 1: my own you know, passions and things that I find,
Speaker 1: like I love traveling and I go away a lot
Speaker 1: on my own and just go hiking, and it's it's
Speaker 1: trying to find a balance, right But and that's not
Speaker 1: taking away from people who do no make that their.
Speaker 3: Life, but that's kind of what works for me.
Speaker 2: Yes, And then you got pegged with the mornic asidies.
Speaker 2: You were the ultra woke it's an ultra woke or
Speaker 2: the ultra woke wag. Yeah, the ultra woke AFL girlfriend
Speaker 2: or the ultra woke wag.
Speaker 3: Now, were you expec that?
Speaker 1: No, because I work for Trible, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: just I don't.
Speaker 3: That's wild to me. That's normal. That's normal.
Speaker 1: And like you know, I'm I'm I'm not and like
Speaker 1: I in as in like I am a journalist, I'm
Speaker 1: a presenter, I work on the whole cup I talk
Speaker 1: about last extending relationships.
Speaker 3: I'm a Trible representer.
Speaker 1: Like the moment I stepped, I don't know what I
Speaker 1: had said or done. I don't think I had. I'm
Speaker 1: not someone who really does post a lot online. I
Speaker 1: don't really like being on socials too much. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. But how branded?
Speaker 3: How was that branding? But I don't know. I just
Speaker 3: was like sure, I try not to listen to it.
Speaker 3: It's it was.
Speaker 1: It was a bit of a shock at the start
Speaker 1: because I think I wasn't expecting that world.
Speaker 3: To be so the media wise, to be so full on.
Speaker 1: It's just not something that I've ever yeah, got really
Speaker 1: accustomed to, but was ever really expecting because I just
Speaker 1: I grew up in Perth like footy culture. Just like
Speaker 1: I said, my parents are Baladancer's like this is not
Speaker 1: This is not my world, and the obsession with footy
Speaker 1: here as well is not my world. I'd, you know,
Speaker 1: only been living there at the time, like four years maybe,
Speaker 1: so Yeah, it just wasn't It was really unexpected. But
Speaker 1: I just like I just tried to ignore it. The
Speaker 1: being called that doesn't bother me. And I don't know
Speaker 1: why I would.
Speaker 2: Think they say that, Yeah, why is it an insult?
Speaker 3: Why I think it's an insult.
Speaker 1: I just think we're in a world right now where
Speaker 1: it is so polarizing, and I think it gets clicks, right.
Speaker 1: I think that on socials at the moment, it's just
Speaker 1: the way the algorithms work where the content we're constantly
Speaker 1: consuming is polarizing, and so it works, right. They've got
Speaker 1: to make money, they've got to make clicks, and it's
Speaker 1: what works because people are so divided at the moment and.
Speaker 3: Many peoples I entities are wrapped up in.
Speaker 1: Mi'm either this or I'm not yes, And like I
Speaker 1: was saying before, there's no nuance, there's no critical thinking,
Speaker 1: there's no deep taking a breath and thinking a bit
Speaker 1: deeper about things.
Speaker 3: And so I think it's just what works at the moment.
Speaker 2: And stay with us because after the break, d shares
Speaker 2: what happened when she and Darcy went public with their relationship.
Speaker 2: Do you think you had underestimated how how your difference
Speaker 2: would draw the eye.
Speaker 3: I don't think I even thought about it. I didn't
Speaker 3: think about it at all. No, I didn't think about it.
Speaker 3: And then how.
Speaker 2: When you you know, sometimes when you're stuck in the
Speaker 2: story that's of other people's devising, you can't reset the narrative.
Speaker 2: And so then you did an interview that about moving
Speaker 2: in together, or someone asked you about moving in together,
Speaker 2: and you, I don't know what you said, something about
Speaker 2: heteronormity falls something, yeah, okay, okay, and then we're off
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But that's just the landscape we live in right now,
Speaker 1: right Like I think that people are so quick to
Speaker 1: take things out of context. Like even this morning, I
Speaker 1: woke up early and the first thing I did was
Speaker 1: look at my phone, and I was getting all these
Speaker 1: message abusive messages on my posts on Instagram and in
Speaker 1: my messages from this girl who was claiming that I
Speaker 1: was lesbian phobic or something on an episode that I
Speaker 1: didn't even do.
Speaker 3: She was just like, you know, so I think that, like,
Speaker 3: we live.
Speaker 1: In a in a world now, especially on socials, where
Speaker 1: there's no critical thinking, there's no deep thought, there's no
Speaker 1: doing a bit of research, there's no actually like understanding
Speaker 1: when something is taken from an interview, right, what the
Speaker 1: actual context of that conversation was. And so that's just
Speaker 1: what happened with that moment. But it's it is, it's
Speaker 1: constant online. I mean, you guys would be so aware
Speaker 1: of that, and it happens every day and there's so
Speaker 1: much like changing of.
Speaker 3: Year, you know, people are very tribal as well. Oh
Speaker 3: my god.
Speaker 1: And also quotes just like a tile online from an
Speaker 1: interview and people are.
Speaker 3: Like, how dare you like bluff? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And it's like, even with this book coming out, such
Speaker 1: a huge part of the book is about being single,
Speaker 1: and some quotes went up and people going, yeah, but
Speaker 1: you're in a relationship. It's like, this is a quote
Speaker 1: and a quote from an interview that was a long
Speaker 1: interview that came from a long book that has a
Speaker 1: lot of context. If you could spend two seconds just
Speaker 1: thinking that before you jump, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yes? And it's so wild to me, but everyone does
Speaker 3: it and it's constant.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's You're very interesting to people because
Speaker 2: of that singleness as well. So you were talking about
Speaker 2: your love of rom coms and women generally we have
Speaker 2: a love of rom coms that may lead us up
Speaker 2: the garden park, but we love it.
Speaker 3: And you, in a sense are not unlike that.
Speaker 2: In the story arc of a rom com where you
Speaker 2: know that even the seminole car accident and the whatever,
Speaker 2: and then the moving into state and then the going
Speaker 2: into lockdown and the period of self reflection, that withdrawal
Speaker 2: from the world of men coming out and finding love
Speaker 2: with a tall, beautiful guy. So there is going to
Speaker 2: be such a degree of interest in you, not just
Speaker 2: for d Salmon, that is you, but as you as
Speaker 2: part of this unit, this romantic unit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why the whole last chapter of the book,
Speaker 1: which is about love, is talking about the importance of
Speaker 1: love that isn't just romantic, and I talk about the
Speaker 1: fact that we have been taught through the rom comms,
Speaker 1: through the world that we live in, that romantic love
Speaker 1: is at the top of that hierarchy ride and that
Speaker 1: stems from the romantic error. It's romanticism that centuries ago
Speaker 1: has actually shaped the way that we love today that
Speaker 1: and reproductively as well. Like we know that romantic love
Speaker 1: isn't actually real. Biologists and evolutionary psychologists will tell you
Speaker 1: that it's just something that we've societally conditioned and called
Speaker 1: romantic love.
Speaker 4: But I can't believe it's actually just reproductive love.
Speaker 3: But when you feel it, yeah, but that's not We
Speaker 3: can still feel that for friends, right.
Speaker 1: And I spoke to an evolutionary biologist, doctor Anna Mashen
Speaker 1: recent recently, and she talked about the fact that that
Speaker 1: love that you feel for your dog.
Speaker 3: For God, for your friends is just as.
Speaker 1: Powerful and work in the same centers of her brain
Speaker 1: as romantic love. Just been in the West really conditioned
Speaker 1: to put romantic love at the top and this be
Speaker 1: all and end all.
Speaker 3: And that's the point that I really wanted to come across.
Speaker 1: At the end, it's like, yes, Okay, I have this
Speaker 1: incredible partner, we absolutely love each other. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that that might not one day end And that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that my life will be any.
Speaker 3: Less end with the love that I have, Yes.
Speaker 1: With my best friend Brendan, with my family, with my
Speaker 1: other best friend Elie. Like they are all just as
Speaker 1: meaningful and just as powerful. But we have been conditioned
Speaker 1: to just put our partners as like our best friend,
Speaker 1: i'll love, our soulmate, our everything.
Speaker 3: And I also think that's a dangerous thing to do.
Speaker 2: Do you think that you're thinking like that, which once
Speaker 2: upon a time you didn't think like yeah, has meant
Speaker 2: that you're now the elusive one in a relationship as
Speaker 2: in like him, yeah for him, or generally, you know
Speaker 2: if you were to, you know, go out with someone
Speaker 2: else in a romantic context, that once upon a time
Speaker 2: you were looking for that affirmation from someone who would
Speaker 2: sort of withhold it. But now that you're such a
Speaker 2: free creature in your thinking and your your orientation, that
Speaker 2: actually means that you're the person that is doing that.
Speaker 2: And I don't mean it why but just generally because
Speaker 2: you're like, don't me.
Speaker 3: In yeah, But I don't know if I show up
Speaker 3: in relationships like that.
Speaker 1: I think that in relationships, you know, I am, we're
Speaker 1: both really secure and now it's like we talk about
Speaker 1: our future and it's like it's not like I'm I'm
Speaker 1: pessimistic about it. I'm just realistic. And I think that
Speaker 1: for me, it's been really important to make sure that
Speaker 1: all other parts of my life had just as nurtured
Speaker 1: and just as important, because I think, like I was
Speaker 1: saying with the dangerous part, like I think when you
Speaker 1: sent to your whole entire life and make it your everything,
Speaker 1: and some people can do that and that's great and
Speaker 1: that works for them, but it hasn't for me in
Speaker 1: the past. And I think that this comes from a
Speaker 1: place of just being conscious of when you do do
Speaker 1: that and it ends.
Speaker 3: And then you've got nothing to fall back on, and your.
Speaker 1: Friends have moved on you and you don't know who
Speaker 1: you liked them sometimes neglected not only your other relationships
Speaker 1: but yourself, right, like you don't remember like what brought
Speaker 1: you joy and what brought you passion without having had
Speaker 1: that with another person. And so for me, it's just
Speaker 1: something that I'm conscious of doing. And that's yeah, not
Speaker 1: coming from a place of like, oh, don't.
Speaker 3: Don't box me in, like don't hold me down, Like I'm.
Speaker 1: Very secure and we talk about our future and we
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, our life together. But that doesn't that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that doesn't take away from the fact that I'm you know,
Speaker 1: making a really conscious effort and encourage other people to
Speaker 1: do the same because I think it's so important because
Speaker 1: you do have to be realistic about the state of
Speaker 1: marriage and forty one percent of marriages in Australia and
Speaker 1: a divorce, and we know that like just innately, humans
Speaker 1: are serially monogamous and we're not truly monogamous because people cheat.
Speaker 3: The numbers are too high. And so I think that like.
Speaker 1: Once you know all this, and once you know, chat
Speaker 1: to these incredible people who work in the field of
Speaker 1: dating and sex and relationships like you do, like find
Speaker 1: a bit more of a realistic understanding. And as a journalist,
Speaker 1: like I'm really driven by research and science and hearing
Speaker 1: from people who know the best, right And I think
Speaker 1: now we turn to TikTok and we have someone who's like,
Speaker 1: this is what you should do in a relationship, and
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well what's your qualifications and we get
Speaker 1: pulled right, and.
Speaker 3: So many young people now are doing that.
Speaker 2: If you think futuristically for yourself, without putting any you know,
Speaker 2: academic or theoretical restrictions on it, what does it look
Speaker 2: like for you.
Speaker 3: Darcy's in the picture like it's it's both of us
Speaker 3: like football around. He's on the day week.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's us, just like I love how much
Speaker 1: we support each other's careers, and I love how much
Speaker 1: we support what we're both passionate about, and it's really
Speaker 1: exciting because we have so many interests. And I'm so
Speaker 1: excited for him post AFL, Like he's such an incredibly
Speaker 1: academic and intelligent person and the world really will be
Speaker 1: his oyster and that's really exciting. And we both love traveling,
Speaker 1: and I just think there will be a time where
Speaker 1: we'll get to explore after this is over, and I'm
Speaker 1: really excited for that and to be able to see
Speaker 1: the world together. And he's never ever experienced a time
Speaker 1: that isn't restricted and rigid, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And I had a gap year after my car accident
Speaker 1: where I went traveling for nearly a year and it
Speaker 1: was just the most incredible experience of my life and
Speaker 1: I learned so much from that and being able to
Speaker 1: share that with someone, like being able to do that
Speaker 1: together and just you know where, like will we end
Speaker 1: up in Europe?
Speaker 3: Will we I'm really excited by that.
Speaker 1: And just not you know, holding any ideas or restrictions
Speaker 1: around what our careers could look like and where we
Speaker 1: could end up together.
Speaker 2: What what have you learned about that world that has
Speaker 2: surprised you?
Speaker 1: I think I I think I've learned that, Yes, a
Speaker 1: lot of the stereotypes do exist, but there's a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of men in there that are quite
Speaker 1: similar to us he that I think people wouldn't expect.
Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of really beautiful, kind,
Speaker 1: feminist men that I've spoken to that I've seen that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think people don't realize. I think there is the
Speaker 1: stereotype exists for a reason it is there, but there
Speaker 1: are a lot more men, which is then a bigger
Speaker 1: conversation right about the man box and the way that
Speaker 1: we box men into the positions and expectations around how
Speaker 1: they should show up. And there are so many different
Speaker 1: men there that I think, yeah, get boxed into that
Speaker 1: that you'd be surprised, aren't like that?
Speaker 3: Are you into football now? Okay, I'm into supporting my
Speaker 3: partner right yeah? Yeah, Yeah, But that's a lot. That's
Speaker 3: a lot to take on, a lot to learn. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know what either, but I did learn three
Speaker 2: I've got four children, and three of them are boys,
Speaker 2: and they all played footy and I had never really
Speaker 2: had any interest in football, and watching them play football,
Speaker 2: I realized I had disrespected what it meant.
Speaker 3: What did you learn?
Speaker 2: I just I think that at being teammates, being part
Speaker 2: of a team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so important, the way that they.
Speaker 2: That they show up for each other in a physical
Speaker 2: sense as well on the field and off the field.
Speaker 2: That they have to accommodate, like you said, a lot
Speaker 2: of different personality types and find a way, like humanity,
Speaker 2: to move together to a common goal. I really realized
Speaker 2: that I had been disrespectful in my dismissal of something
Speaker 2: I really didn't know much about.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that it's such any sort of team sport.
Speaker 1: It's such an incredible thing for kids to do, particularly
Speaker 1: with boys. And we talk about mental health and that
Speaker 1: maybe men don't talk or maybe they don't know how to,
Speaker 1: you know, they always say men a side by somede
Speaker 1: women are faced.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's often at its best, it's a beautiful
Speaker 2: manifestation of support and love and comrade hip for each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I think I've only read parts of it,
Speaker 1: but Helen Ghana talk.
Speaker 3: About the season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think that Yeah, It's something that
Speaker 1: Darcy talks about a lot, and I think it's so
Speaker 1: important for young kids, especially young boys, and just at
Speaker 1: that age, like just understanding that the world doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: it takes some people their whole life to learn, but
Speaker 1: the world doesn't just revolve around them. And like you said,
Speaker 1: there are so many different types of people that have
Speaker 1: so many different traits and personalities, and someone might be
Speaker 1: really introverted and shy and you know, and you have
Speaker 1: to learn how to work as a team.
Speaker 3: And it's so important.
Speaker 2: Coming back to the book, And like I said, there's
Speaker 2: a journey in the book that is so interesting but
Speaker 2: also very rewarding. If you could go back to your
Speaker 2: most vulnerable, which I'm imagining was maybe after that car accident, yeah,
Speaker 2: i'd probably say so, yeah.
Speaker 3: What did that d look like? Now?
Speaker 2: You know how when you were talking about the therapy
Speaker 2: and you come back to yourself as like the little girl.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what this book was written for.
Speaker 1: I dedicated it to my seventeen year old self and
Speaker 1: the book that I didn't know that I needed. And
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, the reason why I really wanted
Speaker 1: to write this book was because at those lowest points
Speaker 1: in my life or the times where I felt so
Speaker 1: lower my self esteem or myself worse. I was constantly
Speaker 1: chasing and putting up with, you know, behavior, and after
Speaker 1: that car accident, it was I was just I was
Speaker 1: so vulnerable and I was so desperate. I was so
Speaker 1: desperate for any sort of love from my boyfriend, and
Speaker 1: I just wasn't getting it, and I just that begging.
Speaker 1: Like I got to a point where I was genuinely
Speaker 1: just begging.
Speaker 3: And I think, how, like it's just so fucking sad,
Speaker 3: Like it is so sad.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's kind of why I wanted
Speaker 1: to write the book, was.
Speaker 3: Because those moments I was so desperate, and.
Speaker 1: Even post the accident, like reading so many books on
Speaker 1: like how to get the guy and the rules, and
Speaker 1: like just walked and changed myself constantly just to try
Speaker 1: and get any sort of love and affection and attention.
Speaker 1: And I think that this is the book that I
Speaker 1: wish I had had, and so I would probably just
Speaker 1: in part, like everything that I've I've put.
Speaker 3: In the book to my younger self.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's kind of like why in my conclusion,
Speaker 1: I write, like I went through all of these things
Speaker 1: and I would do them all again if it meant
Speaker 1: that someone else reading this book, you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have learned what I've learned to be able to put
Speaker 1: this book together. And if it changes one person's idea
Speaker 1: of how they show up in relationships, or if it,
Speaker 1: you know, slightly heals someone going through a really hard
Speaker 1: time in a breakup, or if they can relate to
Speaker 1: that place that I was in desperately begging for love
Speaker 1: like them.
Speaker 3: I've done. I've done my job.
Speaker 2: So how do you feel having had a vulnerable conversation
Speaker 2: you who is so averse to them?
Speaker 1: I feel great because I think I was in safe hands,
Speaker 1: which I knew, and you're coming into this chat that
Speaker 1: you know, having listened to the episodes that you've done before,
Speaker 1: Like you have such a powerful way way of making
Speaker 1: people feel really seen and safe. So yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: really good. I feel like sometimes you don't even have
Speaker 1: like a vulnerability hangover, you know, when you leave chat, like, oh,
Speaker 1: oh my god, what did I just say?
Speaker 3: I can't believe that. Yeah, I haven't left yet, but
Speaker 3: I feel I don't feel that you haven't left yet.
Speaker 1: Outside No, I feel like, no, this has been really
Speaker 1: really nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always think probably what you're scared of is
Speaker 2: the idea of it rather than the execution of it,
Speaker 2: and that I don't think that anyone particularly experiences anything
Speaker 2: in life that other people have not experienced, Like it
Speaker 2: comes in different, a different cloak, but the feelings are
Speaker 2: the same.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And the more you sort of cut.
Speaker 2: Them loose, which you've done in this book, I think
Speaker 2: the more liberated you are from them.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and you would know that, right, like having
Speaker 3: seen so many people and spoken to so many people.
Speaker 2: But I think the secrets or shame can hold such
Speaker 2: a power over you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. D Salmon, thank you for showing yourself. Thank you
Speaker 3: for having me. That was D Salmon.
Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that's really stayed with me
Speaker 2: from our conversation, it's this idea that so many of
Speaker 2: us are navigating relationships based on expectations. We didn't even
Speaker 2: consciously choose. D's work and her life really challenges that.
Speaker 2: It asks what happens if you stop settling, stop shrinking,
Speaker 2: and actually get honest about what you want. Her book
Speaker 2: is called It's Not Love Actually, and it's out now.
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you follow no
Speaker 2: Filter so you never miss a conversation. Thanks so much
Speaker 2: for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of No
Speaker 2: Filter is Pre Player. The assistant producer is Coco Levine.
Speaker 2: Audio production and video editing by Josh Green. This episode
Speaker 2: was recorded at Session in Progress Studios. I'm Kate Lanebrook
Speaker 2: and I'll see you next Monday