1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,925 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is. 3 00:00:17,925 --> 00:00:21,205 Speaker 2: Recorded on Kristen Lakson, and she goes, hey, you know 4 00:00:21,285 --> 00:00:24,605 Speaker 2: that thing where we were just trying to fix our marriage. 5 00:00:24,645 --> 00:00:26,565 Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, yeah, basically the last eight years 6 00:00:26,565 --> 00:00:28,405 Speaker 2: of course, what's up. She's like, well, I don't want 7 00:00:28,445 --> 00:00:30,765 Speaker 2: to do that anymore. I'm out. I can't do this 8 00:00:30,845 --> 00:00:34,045 Speaker 2: marriage thing with you anymore. And I was like holding 9 00:00:34,085 --> 00:00:36,245 Speaker 2: my underwear. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, 10 00:00:36,485 --> 00:00:39,245 Speaker 2: what do you mean you're You're out from Mama Mia. 11 00:00:39,365 --> 00:00:43,965 Speaker 3: This is no filter and I'm mea Friedman. Before David 12 00:00:44,005 --> 00:00:46,445 Speaker 3: and Kristen Finch were married and they were just dating, 13 00:00:46,845 --> 00:00:50,325 Speaker 3: she found some photos on his camera that were really well, 14 00:00:50,325 --> 00:00:54,565 Speaker 3: they were really weird, not sex weird and not cheating weird. 15 00:00:54,725 --> 00:00:57,605 Speaker 3: This wasn't one of those situations where you accidentally find 16 00:00:57,805 --> 00:01:02,245 Speaker 3: incriminating evidence of infidelity. It was not that these weren't 17 00:01:02,285 --> 00:01:06,245 Speaker 3: dick pics, but they were photos of David taken by David, 18 00:01:07,005 --> 00:01:09,205 Speaker 3: and I guess you could call them selfies, but they 19 00:01:09,405 --> 00:01:11,805 Speaker 3: are not the kind of selfies that you imagine. 20 00:01:11,645 --> 00:01:12,685 Speaker 1: When you hear that word. 21 00:01:13,605 --> 00:01:17,205 Speaker 3: The photos that Kristin found of her boyfriend were in 22 00:01:17,245 --> 00:01:22,805 Speaker 3: different situations, like normal situations, watching TV or driving his car, 23 00:01:23,365 --> 00:01:27,325 Speaker 3: even sitting on the toilet, very everyday things, and he'd 24 00:01:27,325 --> 00:01:31,605 Speaker 3: taken photos of himself while he was doing them. So yeah, 25 00:01:31,645 --> 00:01:34,085 Speaker 3: not the usual kind of photos that a guy or 26 00:01:34,165 --> 00:01:35,805 Speaker 3: anyone really would take. 27 00:01:36,405 --> 00:01:39,445 Speaker 1: Because why would you. So of course. 28 00:01:39,245 --> 00:01:42,445 Speaker 3: Kristin asked him about it, and David told her that 29 00:01:42,525 --> 00:01:45,885 Speaker 3: he wanted to understand how he looked to other people 30 00:01:46,045 --> 00:01:49,645 Speaker 3: when he was doing normal stuff. And they laughed about 31 00:01:49,645 --> 00:01:52,325 Speaker 3: it together, and even though David couldn't explain why he 32 00:01:52,405 --> 00:01:55,685 Speaker 3: did it, Kristin just kind of dismissed it as a 33 00:01:55,725 --> 00:01:58,405 Speaker 3: little quirk. I mean, she knew that David had a 34 00:01:58,405 --> 00:02:02,005 Speaker 3: bunch of quirks things that he did that seemed, you know. 35 00:02:02,205 --> 00:02:03,325 Speaker 1: A little odd. 36 00:02:03,805 --> 00:02:06,325 Speaker 3: A few years later, though, after they were married and 37 00:02:06,405 --> 00:02:10,285 Speaker 3: had kids and David hit a really rough patch in 38 00:02:10,325 --> 00:02:13,845 Speaker 3: their relationship and it sparked a discovery about David that 39 00:02:13,885 --> 00:02:18,325 Speaker 3: would change everything. This discovery even led to him writing 40 00:02:18,365 --> 00:02:21,885 Speaker 3: a book about How to Be a Perfect Husband, which 41 00:02:21,925 --> 00:02:25,965 Speaker 3: became a New York Times bestseller. And this part's quite funny. 42 00:02:26,125 --> 00:02:30,285 Speaker 3: His determination to be a perfect husband is what ultimately 43 00:02:30,325 --> 00:02:33,845 Speaker 3: made his wife call time on their marriage. This is 44 00:02:33,885 --> 00:02:36,645 Speaker 3: a story with a lot of surprises in it, mostly 45 00:02:36,685 --> 00:02:38,925 Speaker 3: for David and also for you when. 46 00:02:38,765 --> 00:02:41,605 Speaker 1: You hear it. So the best place to start is at. 47 00:02:41,485 --> 00:02:44,325 Speaker 3: The beginning, when David was just a kid trying to 48 00:02:44,325 --> 00:02:47,565 Speaker 3: figure out how to be in the world. So let's 49 00:02:47,645 --> 00:02:50,405 Speaker 3: dive in with the very delightful David Finch. 50 00:02:52,045 --> 00:02:53,765 Speaker 1: Tell me where you grew up, David. 51 00:02:54,405 --> 00:02:57,645 Speaker 2: I grew up on a farm in northern Illinois. It's 52 00:02:57,645 --> 00:03:00,765 Speaker 2: about sixty miles northwest of Chicago, pretty close to the 53 00:03:00,805 --> 00:03:04,365 Speaker 2: Wisconsin border, and it was fantastic. 54 00:03:04,605 --> 00:03:05,805 Speaker 1: What kind of kid were you? 55 00:03:06,045 --> 00:03:08,045 Speaker 2: First of all, I know that I was a very, 56 00:03:08,205 --> 00:03:12,605 Speaker 2: very happy, to a large extent chill kid, and I 57 00:03:12,605 --> 00:03:16,165 Speaker 2: would say quirky too. There were moments where, like my 58 00:03:16,245 --> 00:03:18,885 Speaker 2: parents were having a dinner party just with a bunch 59 00:03:18,925 --> 00:03:21,525 Speaker 2: of friends, and I would scoot along on the floor 60 00:03:21,565 --> 00:03:23,645 Speaker 2: of our house on my hands in my knees with 61 00:03:23,725 --> 00:03:27,605 Speaker 2: my forehead against the carpet, and I loved the brushing 62 00:03:27,645 --> 00:03:30,285 Speaker 2: sensation of the carpet against my forehead. It was like 63 00:03:30,365 --> 00:03:34,685 Speaker 2: very calming. It kind of transported me into this utopian 64 00:03:34,965 --> 00:03:37,565 Speaker 2: like state of mind. Even when I was real young, 65 00:03:37,645 --> 00:03:39,645 Speaker 2: you know, and I was like, this feels great. So 66 00:03:39,685 --> 00:03:41,765 Speaker 2: I did it all the time. My parents were awesome. 67 00:03:41,805 --> 00:03:44,485 Speaker 2: They were just like, Oh, that's just Dave. Don't mind him. 68 00:03:44,725 --> 00:03:45,285 Speaker 2: He's fine. 69 00:03:45,805 --> 00:03:48,965 Speaker 3: He's just vacuuming the floor with his face, not a problem. 70 00:03:49,485 --> 00:03:52,045 Speaker 3: Did you have friends, David, Like, did you socialize easily? 71 00:03:52,125 --> 00:03:53,845 Speaker 3: Or did other kids think that you're a bit weird? 72 00:03:54,045 --> 00:03:56,805 Speaker 2: These are great questions. I love these. Okay, So after 73 00:03:57,325 --> 00:03:59,645 Speaker 2: we'll say third grade or fourth grade or so, I 74 00:03:59,685 --> 00:04:05,005 Speaker 2: always had a very small and unchanging friend group, and 75 00:04:05,525 --> 00:04:09,125 Speaker 2: those same people are still my closest friends today. But 76 00:04:10,365 --> 00:04:13,005 Speaker 2: for the most part, I was not likely to be 77 00:04:13,125 --> 00:04:16,925 Speaker 2: the kid who was invited to we'll say, just a party, like, 78 00:04:16,925 --> 00:04:19,285 Speaker 2: Oh we're doing a big party Friday night, everybody come over. 79 00:04:20,005 --> 00:04:22,845 Speaker 2: My number was not on that list. So I would 80 00:04:22,845 --> 00:04:25,645 Speaker 2: find out that everybody got together, did fun things whatever. 81 00:04:26,085 --> 00:04:28,605 Speaker 2: Looking back, that was it was really okay with me. 82 00:04:28,725 --> 00:04:31,045 Speaker 2: I always felt this notion of like, what am I 83 00:04:31,085 --> 00:04:33,925 Speaker 2: missing out on? Why am I not being invited to 84 00:04:33,965 --> 00:04:37,045 Speaker 2: participate in these sorts of things. On the other hand, 85 00:04:37,085 --> 00:04:39,445 Speaker 2: if you had asked me put yourself in that environment, 86 00:04:39,485 --> 00:04:42,365 Speaker 2: in that party, in that situation, hanging out with you know, 87 00:04:42,405 --> 00:04:44,285 Speaker 2: people on a Friday night, would you want to be 88 00:04:44,325 --> 00:04:46,085 Speaker 2: doing that? The answer would be no, I'd rather be 89 00:04:46,125 --> 00:04:49,805 Speaker 2: at home, you know, practicing my sax phone, drawing pictures 90 00:04:49,885 --> 00:04:52,285 Speaker 2: or whatever. I always had a core group of friends. 91 00:04:52,885 --> 00:04:55,325 Speaker 2: I was lucky in that way because I think I 92 00:04:55,525 --> 00:04:59,165 Speaker 2: was regarded as sort of the funny kid, the comedian 93 00:04:59,205 --> 00:05:02,525 Speaker 2: of the group or the school. I don't know, looking back, 94 00:05:02,525 --> 00:05:04,045 Speaker 2: if I was funny or if I was just willing 95 00:05:04,045 --> 00:05:06,285 Speaker 2: to be more obnoxious than the other kids were willing 96 00:05:06,325 --> 00:05:07,925 Speaker 2: to be, and so they thought that was funny. 97 00:05:07,925 --> 00:05:09,685 Speaker 3: But well, you in on the jike, Well, were you 98 00:05:09,765 --> 00:05:11,925 Speaker 3: sort of bewildered about You'd say something that you didn't 99 00:05:11,925 --> 00:05:14,165 Speaker 3: think was funny and everyone would go, oh, Dave, you're 100 00:05:14,325 --> 00:05:17,365 Speaker 3: it's so funny when you were like, I wasn't trying 101 00:05:17,365 --> 00:05:19,965 Speaker 3: to be funny, or you would you actually push on 102 00:05:20,045 --> 00:05:21,085 Speaker 3: that button deliberately. 103 00:05:21,405 --> 00:05:23,685 Speaker 2: I'm laughing because that actually happens more now that I'm 104 00:05:23,685 --> 00:05:25,805 Speaker 2: an adult. I'm not in on the joke. When I 105 00:05:25,845 --> 00:05:28,605 Speaker 2: was a kid, I had a little more credibility. No, 106 00:05:28,685 --> 00:05:30,405 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, it was half and half 107 00:05:30,645 --> 00:05:34,165 Speaker 2: half the time. I would architects sort of a funny 108 00:05:34,205 --> 00:05:37,325 Speaker 2: situation or a funny line on things, I would present 109 00:05:37,365 --> 00:05:39,125 Speaker 2: it or I would share it with people, they would 110 00:05:39,125 --> 00:05:41,925 Speaker 2: agree it was funny. And whether that was you know, 111 00:05:42,245 --> 00:05:45,485 Speaker 2: just in a conversation like real time, or if the 112 00:05:45,565 --> 00:05:50,045 Speaker 2: assignment for the classroom was we're making posters about, you know, 113 00:05:50,165 --> 00:05:53,765 Speaker 2: recycling or something, then I would draw the most ridiculous 114 00:05:54,125 --> 00:05:55,965 Speaker 2: poster and I know people would laugh at that. Right 115 00:05:56,125 --> 00:05:58,525 Speaker 2: then there are other times when I clearly was not 116 00:05:58,525 --> 00:06:00,485 Speaker 2: trying to make anybody laugh, and I was just sharing 117 00:06:00,485 --> 00:06:03,245 Speaker 2: my actual lived experience and people thought it was hilarious. 118 00:06:03,805 --> 00:06:08,085 Speaker 2: And so sometimes I felt othered. We'll say, to use 119 00:06:08,125 --> 00:06:10,205 Speaker 2: that fake verb. 120 00:06:10,525 --> 00:06:12,765 Speaker 3: We didn't have that word back then, but now you 121 00:06:12,805 --> 00:06:16,685 Speaker 3: can see that's how you felt. Tell me about dating, 122 00:06:17,005 --> 00:06:20,005 Speaker 3: because that can be difficult for anyone to navigate. But 123 00:06:20,245 --> 00:06:22,445 Speaker 3: when you have a different view on the world, how 124 00:06:22,525 --> 00:06:23,125 Speaker 3: was it for you? 125 00:06:23,485 --> 00:06:27,285 Speaker 2: Dating was always a really interesting proposition for me because 126 00:06:27,605 --> 00:06:30,045 Speaker 2: it's said often you know of people who are on 127 00:06:30,085 --> 00:06:32,925 Speaker 2: the spectrum that do they really engage with people on 128 00:06:32,965 --> 00:06:35,605 Speaker 2: an emotional level? Do they really understand, you know, the 129 00:06:35,685 --> 00:06:38,325 Speaker 2: sort of the social dynamics, And you know, for the 130 00:06:38,365 --> 00:06:40,885 Speaker 2: most part, there are challenges with that and maybe certain 131 00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:43,445 Speaker 2: limitations if you want to call them limitations or differences 132 00:06:43,445 --> 00:06:45,965 Speaker 2: if you want to call them differences. But for me, 133 00:06:46,725 --> 00:06:49,805 Speaker 2: dating was an interesting proposition because there was always somebody 134 00:06:49,845 --> 00:06:52,445 Speaker 2: that I was like, Oh, well, she's cute, she's funny. 135 00:06:52,445 --> 00:06:54,925 Speaker 2: I like her personality, you know, And so there's always 136 00:06:54,965 --> 00:06:57,205 Speaker 2: somebody I was interested in for one reason or another. 137 00:06:57,285 --> 00:07:00,125 Speaker 2: But when it came time, like basically in high school, 138 00:07:00,525 --> 00:07:03,485 Speaker 2: is really when I first started to maybe have girlfriends. 139 00:07:03,925 --> 00:07:06,645 Speaker 2: So I do really well when I have a model 140 00:07:06,925 --> 00:07:09,685 Speaker 2: in my head for how something is supposed to be done, 141 00:07:10,245 --> 00:07:12,205 Speaker 2: and I can kind of work that model. But until 142 00:07:12,245 --> 00:07:14,845 Speaker 2: I have that model, I don't always do well with 143 00:07:15,485 --> 00:07:20,005 Speaker 2: improvisation in such a way that the improvisation is tolerable 144 00:07:20,045 --> 00:07:22,925 Speaker 2: to others. I can improvise my way through anything, but 145 00:07:23,005 --> 00:07:25,445 Speaker 2: the key socially is to do it in an agreeable, 146 00:07:26,045 --> 00:07:30,245 Speaker 2: socially nice manner. Right, So, like, what I knew about dating, 147 00:07:30,445 --> 00:07:33,125 Speaker 2: especially when I was younger, is anything that I would 148 00:07:33,125 --> 00:07:35,485 Speaker 2: have seen in TV shows, cartoons, and movies. 149 00:07:35,525 --> 00:07:37,965 Speaker 1: So that's what you were emulating. That was the model 150 00:07:38,005 --> 00:07:38,605 Speaker 1: you were working. 151 00:07:38,805 --> 00:07:41,365 Speaker 2: I was emulating that, which is dangerous when you're emulating 152 00:07:41,365 --> 00:07:44,925 Speaker 2: Peppi Lapu and you're like all this this amorous like ooh, 153 00:07:45,365 --> 00:07:49,205 Speaker 2: you know you're so beautiful now yeah nowadays, Yeah, i'd 154 00:07:49,205 --> 00:07:50,765 Speaker 2: be thrown in jail. Yeah. 155 00:07:51,085 --> 00:07:53,405 Speaker 3: Tell me about the improvising. Give me an example of 156 00:07:53,445 --> 00:07:56,405 Speaker 3: a situation where you improvised, but because you didn't have 157 00:07:56,445 --> 00:07:57,685 Speaker 3: a model, it didn't land. 158 00:07:58,125 --> 00:08:00,725 Speaker 2: God, that's such a good question, because I always referred 159 00:08:00,805 --> 00:08:03,845 Speaker 2: back to models all this levity and joking for the 160 00:08:03,885 --> 00:08:06,845 Speaker 2: last couple of minutes. The moment of biggest import for 161 00:08:06,925 --> 00:08:09,725 Speaker 2: me personally in terms of not having a mod and 162 00:08:09,725 --> 00:08:13,645 Speaker 2: feeling completely fish out of water about it, was when 163 00:08:13,765 --> 00:08:17,405 Speaker 2: my best friend Kristin, who is now my wife, lost 164 00:08:17,565 --> 00:08:21,365 Speaker 2: somebody very very important to her. She lost her fiance 165 00:08:21,525 --> 00:08:22,925 Speaker 2: and I don't want to get ahead of the story, 166 00:08:22,965 --> 00:08:26,165 Speaker 2: but she lost her fiance, Mike, in a car accident 167 00:08:26,245 --> 00:08:29,965 Speaker 2: when we were in our early twenties, and Mike was 168 00:08:30,005 --> 00:08:32,485 Speaker 2: somebody that I had grown up with in school as 169 00:08:32,525 --> 00:08:36,765 Speaker 2: well and along with Kristin. I remember I was always 170 00:08:36,845 --> 00:08:40,245 Speaker 2: Kristin's funny, dorky friend as we were just discussing. But 171 00:08:40,885 --> 00:08:43,445 Speaker 2: when Mike died, I did not know how to show 172 00:08:43,525 --> 00:08:45,285 Speaker 2: up for a friend who was grieving. I knew how 173 00:08:45,285 --> 00:08:48,485 Speaker 2: to show up for a friend who was happy or annoyed, 174 00:08:48,685 --> 00:08:52,165 Speaker 2: a little bit sad, you know, all these different emotional states, 175 00:08:52,525 --> 00:08:56,605 Speaker 2: but truly grieving and not feeling like yourself anymore, and 176 00:08:56,645 --> 00:08:59,885 Speaker 2: not being able to process the enormity of what just 177 00:08:59,925 --> 00:09:03,285 Speaker 2: happened in your life, the tragedy of it. I felt 178 00:09:03,285 --> 00:09:05,445 Speaker 2: like a terrible friend because there was a period for 179 00:09:05,485 --> 00:09:07,285 Speaker 2: about a year and a half where I just I 180 00:09:07,325 --> 00:09:09,765 Speaker 2: had no idea how to show up for Kristin, And 181 00:09:09,845 --> 00:09:13,325 Speaker 2: normally I was somebody who always knew how to show 182 00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:15,085 Speaker 2: up for her, how to get a laugh out of her. 183 00:09:15,365 --> 00:09:18,365 Speaker 3: You know, that's interesting that you say that, David, because 184 00:09:19,085 --> 00:09:21,285 Speaker 3: I don't think anyone would have known how to show 185 00:09:21,365 --> 00:09:24,125 Speaker 3: up for Kristin in that situation. I wouldn't, at age 186 00:09:24,165 --> 00:09:27,405 Speaker 3: fifty two as I am now, with all the social 187 00:09:27,485 --> 00:09:30,725 Speaker 3: awareness and insight that I have, and I'm not neurodivers 188 00:09:30,805 --> 00:09:32,725 Speaker 3: in the same way that you are, I wouldn't know 189 00:09:33,005 --> 00:09:35,005 Speaker 3: what to do in that moment. Like I've got a 190 00:09:35,005 --> 00:09:37,365 Speaker 3: friend whose father just died and she's devastated. I don't 191 00:09:37,365 --> 00:09:39,285 Speaker 3: know how to show up for her in the right way. 192 00:09:39,445 --> 00:09:42,685 Speaker 3: So just must have been an incredibly tough thing, you know, 193 00:09:42,805 --> 00:09:45,485 Speaker 3: neurodiversity aside, How did you navigate it with her. 194 00:09:45,725 --> 00:09:48,085 Speaker 2: What ended up happening was after a year and a 195 00:09:48,165 --> 00:09:51,485 Speaker 2: half of Kristin and me not really connecting, not really 196 00:09:51,965 --> 00:09:54,045 Speaker 2: seeing each other at all, but not even calling each 197 00:09:54,085 --> 00:09:57,965 Speaker 2: other on the phone. This was before texting. Prior to that, 198 00:09:58,005 --> 00:10:01,205 Speaker 2: we would see each other pretty regularly and do fun things, 199 00:10:01,245 --> 00:10:04,685 Speaker 2: hang out, do social things, talk, write letters to each other, 200 00:10:04,805 --> 00:10:08,005 Speaker 2: mail and back and forth. But after Mike Dad, she 201 00:10:08,645 --> 00:10:11,645 Speaker 2: really shut down, like her whole self just kind of 202 00:10:12,125 --> 00:10:14,685 Speaker 2: went away for a little while. I had reached out 203 00:10:14,725 --> 00:10:18,285 Speaker 2: a few times, just leaving messages on the answering machine 204 00:10:18,365 --> 00:10:20,325 Speaker 2: and just saying, hey, I'm here, you know, just if 205 00:10:20,325 --> 00:10:22,125 Speaker 2: you ever want to get together, let me know. No 206 00:10:22,205 --> 00:10:24,445 Speaker 2: phone calls back, and that didn't bother me because I 207 00:10:24,805 --> 00:10:28,085 Speaker 2: wasn't expecting one. So after about a year and a half, 208 00:10:28,485 --> 00:10:31,205 Speaker 2: she and I ended up living in the same town, 209 00:10:31,765 --> 00:10:35,445 Speaker 2: across the street from each other. She called me one 210 00:10:35,565 --> 00:10:38,045 Speaker 2: late afternoon, it was actually around dinner time, and she said, 211 00:10:38,765 --> 00:10:40,725 Speaker 2: I would love to go get a cup of coffee. 212 00:10:40,765 --> 00:10:44,405 Speaker 2: Are you around. I was like, oh my god, yeah, 213 00:10:44,525 --> 00:10:46,365 Speaker 2: I would love to get a cup of coffee with you. 214 00:10:46,405 --> 00:10:48,805 Speaker 2: Now that was a lie. People say like, oh, you 215 00:10:48,845 --> 00:10:50,805 Speaker 2: got aspergers. You can't tell lies. No, I can lie. 216 00:10:50,845 --> 00:10:53,845 Speaker 2: And that was a bit. That was a big, big, 217 00:10:53,885 --> 00:10:56,765 Speaker 2: white phony lie because at the time I hated coffee. 218 00:10:56,765 --> 00:10:59,525 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have touched it otherwise. But it was Kristen. 219 00:10:59,605 --> 00:11:01,845 Speaker 2: It was like this really close best friend of mine 220 00:11:01,885 --> 00:11:04,125 Speaker 2: resurfacing after a year and a half. So I was like, oh, yeah, 221 00:11:04,165 --> 00:11:06,725 Speaker 2: I love coffee. I can't get enough of it. So 222 00:11:07,285 --> 00:11:09,005 Speaker 2: I put on my coat and I stood there at 223 00:11:09,005 --> 00:11:12,325 Speaker 2: the the door and she came over to pick me up. 224 00:11:13,005 --> 00:11:16,605 Speaker 2: We went got coffee that night, and it was a 225 00:11:16,645 --> 00:11:20,725 Speaker 2: really interesting evening because I'm much better at banter and 226 00:11:20,805 --> 00:11:24,085 Speaker 2: small talk and just sort of social pleasantry conversation. Now, 227 00:11:24,285 --> 00:11:25,725 Speaker 2: you know, if you're sitting next to somebody on a 228 00:11:25,725 --> 00:11:27,565 Speaker 2: four hour flight and they start yapping at you, and 229 00:11:27,605 --> 00:11:30,405 Speaker 2: I can carry that conversation finally at age forty seven. 230 00:11:31,005 --> 00:11:33,045 Speaker 2: But I had at that time in my life just 231 00:11:33,165 --> 00:11:37,445 Speaker 2: no ability for gab and small talk. So with Kristen, 232 00:11:37,805 --> 00:11:40,085 Speaker 2: we sat down with our coffees. By the way, I 233 00:11:40,085 --> 00:11:42,285 Speaker 2: had no idea what even to order. It was a 234 00:11:42,325 --> 00:11:46,165 Speaker 2: Starbucks coffee place, and so she ordered this white chocolate 235 00:11:46,205 --> 00:11:49,365 Speaker 2: mocha and I listened very closely to how she ordered, 236 00:11:49,365 --> 00:11:51,205 Speaker 2: and I was like that sounds good. I would also 237 00:11:51,325 --> 00:11:57,005 Speaker 2: like a white chocolate mocha, and just following her lead, 238 00:11:57,285 --> 00:11:59,725 Speaker 2: so we both sat down with our white chocolate mochas. 239 00:12:00,005 --> 00:12:00,845 Speaker 1: Sounds delicious. 240 00:12:01,165 --> 00:12:02,805 Speaker 2: It was delicious. I got to say it made me 241 00:12:02,845 --> 00:12:05,365 Speaker 2: a coffee drinker, or maybe it was her company that 242 00:12:05,365 --> 00:12:08,325 Speaker 2: made me a coffee drinker. But I just launched right 243 00:12:08,365 --> 00:12:12,165 Speaker 2: into I haven't seen you in forever, how are you doing? 244 00:12:12,205 --> 00:12:14,845 Speaker 2: And she'd be like, you know, the first couple questions 245 00:12:14,885 --> 00:12:16,525 Speaker 2: I asked you was just like, ah, you know, I mean, 246 00:12:16,845 --> 00:12:19,845 Speaker 2: not awesome, but doing okay, putting on the brave face 247 00:12:19,885 --> 00:12:22,485 Speaker 2: sort of thing, and I could see the brave face act, 248 00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:24,845 Speaker 2: and so I just kind of cut to the chase 249 00:12:24,885 --> 00:12:26,645 Speaker 2: and said, I don't know if there's an answer for this, 250 00:12:26,805 --> 00:12:29,605 Speaker 2: but like, what would you say you regret the most 251 00:12:29,645 --> 00:12:31,645 Speaker 2: having lost Mike but not being able to say goodbye 252 00:12:31,685 --> 00:12:33,325 Speaker 2: to him because it was so abrupt, Like what is 253 00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:34,885 Speaker 2: the biggest thing that you've been dealing with over the 254 00:12:35,005 --> 00:12:37,805 Speaker 2: last year and a half. Yeah, nobody had asked her 255 00:12:37,885 --> 00:12:44,205 Speaker 2: questions like this, And it might sound insensitive, terrible, borderline cruel, 256 00:12:44,485 --> 00:12:47,125 Speaker 2: or barbaric to ask those sorts of questions, but I 257 00:12:47,165 --> 00:12:50,285 Speaker 2: just started asking her one after another of these these 258 00:12:50,325 --> 00:12:55,405 Speaker 2: heavy hitting, like sixty minutes, you know, investigative journalism type questions. 259 00:12:55,685 --> 00:12:56,925 Speaker 1: How did it turn into love? 260 00:12:57,485 --> 00:13:00,525 Speaker 2: Well, I'm an endlessly lovable person. 261 00:13:01,045 --> 00:13:05,245 Speaker 3: Clearly, I'm already in love with you, dard book, Can 262 00:13:05,285 --> 00:13:09,005 Speaker 3: I say, and it's only been twenty minutes, if. 263 00:13:09,405 --> 00:13:12,725 Speaker 2: If only we weren't literally twenty four hours separated exactly. 264 00:13:12,925 --> 00:13:16,005 Speaker 2: That's an interesting question too, because, by the way, I 265 00:13:16,045 --> 00:13:17,685 Speaker 2: love how your listeners are going to be listening to 266 00:13:17,685 --> 00:13:19,325 Speaker 2: this episode and they're going to be like, can you 267 00:13:19,405 --> 00:13:23,565 Speaker 2: just answer one of her fucking questions without this whole 268 00:13:23,605 --> 00:13:27,365 Speaker 2: thirty minute preamble. There was always a love with Kristin 269 00:13:27,405 --> 00:13:30,325 Speaker 2: and me. We knew each other way back when we 270 00:13:30,325 --> 00:13:35,525 Speaker 2: were in preschool. She has known me. Out of all 271 00:13:35,685 --> 00:13:38,125 Speaker 2: the people that I've consciously known in my life, she's 272 00:13:38,405 --> 00:13:40,525 Speaker 2: one of the people who's known me the longest. And 273 00:13:40,565 --> 00:13:44,485 Speaker 2: now she's very aware of people and what's going on 274 00:13:44,605 --> 00:13:47,565 Speaker 2: around her, so she would have noticed me and maybe 275 00:13:47,605 --> 00:13:50,605 Speaker 2: compartmentalized me as like, Okay, that's the funny weird kid. 276 00:13:50,725 --> 00:13:53,805 Speaker 2: Got it cool. Then when we were in high school, 277 00:13:53,885 --> 00:13:57,405 Speaker 2: it really turned we became really I would say, good friends. 278 00:13:57,405 --> 00:14:00,405 Speaker 2: In high school, we had the same line on things. 279 00:14:00,485 --> 00:14:02,485 Speaker 2: We had a very similar sense of humor. 280 00:14:03,125 --> 00:14:05,685 Speaker 3: After the short break, how David got himself out of 281 00:14:05,725 --> 00:14:09,765 Speaker 3: the friend zone with Kristin and embarked on marriage and 282 00:14:09,805 --> 00:14:13,045 Speaker 3: fatherhood and also what he discovered about himself in the 283 00:14:13,085 --> 00:14:15,405 Speaker 3: process that he never expected. 284 00:14:21,325 --> 00:14:23,565 Speaker 1: Did you ever have a crush on her? Or it 285 00:14:23,605 --> 00:14:24,565 Speaker 1: was platonic for you? 286 00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:30,445 Speaker 2: It was platonic by circumstance. Then when Mike died, it 287 00:14:30,525 --> 00:14:32,845 Speaker 2: was when Kristen and Mike were both in grad school. 288 00:14:33,045 --> 00:14:36,725 Speaker 2: I had just graduated from undergrad and had started working already. 289 00:14:37,165 --> 00:14:38,765 Speaker 2: After Mike died, it was a year and a half. 290 00:14:38,805 --> 00:14:41,525 Speaker 2: Then Kristin and I started hanging out and started getting coffee, 291 00:14:42,165 --> 00:14:44,925 Speaker 2: and she was still my very beautiful friend. But it 292 00:14:45,005 --> 00:14:48,125 Speaker 2: wasn't like that high school mania of. 293 00:14:48,485 --> 00:14:50,525 Speaker 1: Desire and lost in home minds. 294 00:14:50,605 --> 00:14:55,005 Speaker 2: Yes, hormonesia, and that doesn't help. It had very well 295 00:14:55,045 --> 00:14:57,405 Speaker 2: calmed down to just like, Wow, look at how beautiful 296 00:14:57,405 --> 00:15:00,205 Speaker 2: my friend is, and I love being here with her talking. 297 00:15:01,125 --> 00:15:04,845 Speaker 2: But apparently that first night was so deeply therapeutic for 298 00:15:04,885 --> 00:15:08,565 Speaker 2: her with all my terrible Barbara Walter's questions that then 299 00:15:08,965 --> 00:15:11,445 Speaker 2: it was hey, let's do this again next week. So 300 00:15:11,525 --> 00:15:14,525 Speaker 2: it was coffee every every week, right, every Tuesday. Then 301 00:15:14,565 --> 00:15:17,845 Speaker 2: it was coffee every few days, then it was coffee 302 00:15:17,845 --> 00:15:20,485 Speaker 2: and dinner every few days. Then it was dinner every day, 303 00:15:20,565 --> 00:15:22,365 Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden we just knew, Like, 304 00:15:22,605 --> 00:15:25,605 Speaker 2: you know, that was months and months of just sort 305 00:15:25,605 --> 00:15:30,005 Speaker 2: of surprising discovery that I had already you know, tapped 306 00:15:30,005 --> 00:15:32,045 Speaker 2: out and was like, you know, we're not a thing, 307 00:15:32,125 --> 00:15:34,525 Speaker 2: or we wouldn't be, so I wasn't even thinking in 308 00:15:34,565 --> 00:15:36,725 Speaker 2: those terms. And then when we were spending so much 309 00:15:36,725 --> 00:15:39,765 Speaker 2: time together, we both were just like, this feels really right. 310 00:15:39,965 --> 00:15:41,205 Speaker 1: How old were you guys then. 311 00:15:41,365 --> 00:15:43,885 Speaker 2: Early twenties, twenty three, twenty four. 312 00:15:43,805 --> 00:15:46,765 Speaker 3: And you talk about being on your best behavior in 313 00:15:46,805 --> 00:15:51,365 Speaker 3: that early phase when you were dating, what were you masking? Like? 314 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:54,645 Speaker 3: What kinds of things were you not showing her when 315 00:15:54,645 --> 00:15:55,845 Speaker 3: you're in your best behavior? 316 00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:58,765 Speaker 2: The masking thing is really interesting. If you would say, 317 00:15:58,805 --> 00:16:01,965 Speaker 2: like to a twenty three year old man, single guy, 318 00:16:02,725 --> 00:16:04,325 Speaker 2: what does it mean to be on your best behavior 319 00:16:04,365 --> 00:16:06,485 Speaker 2: on a date, they might say things like, keep your 320 00:16:06,485 --> 00:16:09,165 Speaker 2: hands to yourself, don't be leering at your date, don't 321 00:16:09,485 --> 00:16:11,765 Speaker 2: suggestive rude, disgusting. 322 00:16:11,205 --> 00:16:12,765 Speaker 1: Comments, don't drink too much. 323 00:16:12,845 --> 00:16:15,285 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't drink too much right, don't get into bar fights. 324 00:16:15,325 --> 00:16:17,085 Speaker 2: Maybe unless she's into that sort of thing, and you 325 00:16:17,165 --> 00:16:21,405 Speaker 2: might win some favor with Kristin being on my best behavior, 326 00:16:21,645 --> 00:16:25,525 Speaker 2: was anything that she wanted to do socially, I would 327 00:16:25,525 --> 00:16:29,165 Speaker 2: just say yes to Blindly. Inside, I might not want 328 00:16:29,205 --> 00:16:32,445 Speaker 2: to go to the Big Taste of Chicago Festival, which 329 00:16:32,485 --> 00:16:35,445 Speaker 2: is this huge, hot Fourth of July festival. It's sticky, 330 00:16:35,525 --> 00:16:39,565 Speaker 2: there's food vendors. It's a nightmare. Frankly, there's shirtless guys 331 00:16:39,565 --> 00:16:43,405 Speaker 2: with upside down visors spilling beer on you, and it's like, ah, 332 00:16:43,445 --> 00:16:46,645 Speaker 2: it's like my worst nightmare. But Kristin, being a very 333 00:16:46,725 --> 00:16:50,805 Speaker 2: social person, she loved the Taste of Chicago Festival. So 334 00:16:50,845 --> 00:16:52,845 Speaker 2: the very first year that we were dating, she was like, 335 00:16:52,925 --> 00:16:54,845 Speaker 2: want to go to the fourth with me? I was like, yes, 336 00:16:55,365 --> 00:16:58,165 Speaker 2: there truly is nothing now would rather do more than 337 00:16:58,285 --> 00:16:58,765 Speaker 2: stand there? 338 00:16:59,045 --> 00:16:59,885 Speaker 1: Well, that'd be coffee. 339 00:16:59,965 --> 00:17:01,645 Speaker 3: That the only thing that would make me happy is 340 00:17:01,685 --> 00:17:03,885 Speaker 3: if I could have coffee at this festival. 341 00:17:04,485 --> 00:17:07,765 Speaker 2: Totally yeah, with two cups of coffee in each hand, 342 00:17:07,885 --> 00:17:08,285 Speaker 2: Like oh. 343 00:17:08,205 --> 00:17:10,605 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm my happy place. 344 00:17:10,685 --> 00:17:14,005 Speaker 2: Let's go. Let's go talk to some college age men. 345 00:17:14,325 --> 00:17:15,045 Speaker 2: This will be fun. 346 00:17:15,125 --> 00:17:15,325 Speaker 3: Yeah. 347 00:17:15,525 --> 00:17:19,245 Speaker 2: So I'd never advocated for those sorts of things that 348 00:17:20,085 --> 00:17:26,005 Speaker 2: truly I would have preferred. I was just all in on. Listen, 349 00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:27,325 Speaker 2: you're dating your best friend. 350 00:17:27,325 --> 00:17:27,525 Speaker 3: Now. 351 00:17:27,605 --> 00:17:30,445 Speaker 2: If you screw this up, you've lost a girlfriend and 352 00:17:30,525 --> 00:17:34,285 Speaker 2: your best friend. So high stakes, high steaks, don't screw 353 00:17:34,325 --> 00:17:36,565 Speaker 2: it up. It's sort of like every day that we 354 00:17:36,565 --> 00:17:39,645 Speaker 2: were dating, it was like I was showing up to 355 00:17:39,805 --> 00:17:43,685 Speaker 2: reinterview for that same job every morning. So you know, 356 00:17:43,725 --> 00:17:45,605 Speaker 2: when you go into an interview with someone, you're like, Hi, 357 00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:48,245 Speaker 2: very great, oh man, traffic was a breeze. You know, 358 00:17:48,805 --> 00:17:50,445 Speaker 2: positive energy. 359 00:17:50,165 --> 00:17:51,525 Speaker 1: Got here early. I'm always oie. 360 00:17:52,885 --> 00:17:55,925 Speaker 3: You wrote that when you slipped from your best behavior, 361 00:17:56,645 --> 00:17:59,725 Speaker 3: You wrote, she seemed to find my eccentricity and endearing. 362 00:17:59,885 --> 00:18:02,765 Speaker 3: I remember her laughter upon discovering dozens of pictures I 363 00:18:02,765 --> 00:18:05,245 Speaker 3: had taken of myself to see what I might look 364 00:18:05,325 --> 00:18:08,405 Speaker 3: like to other people at any given moment, Me watching TV, 365 00:18:08,845 --> 00:18:11,965 Speaker 3: me about to sneeze, me on the toilet, looking pensive. 366 00:18:12,525 --> 00:18:14,005 Speaker 1: Why did you take these photos? 367 00:18:14,085 --> 00:18:14,245 Speaker 3: Day? 368 00:18:16,925 --> 00:18:20,125 Speaker 2: Right around my twenties, it really started to occur to 369 00:18:20,165 --> 00:18:22,165 Speaker 2: me because I was working in an office then, and 370 00:18:22,205 --> 00:18:24,445 Speaker 2: it was starting to occur to me. I knew what 371 00:18:24,525 --> 00:18:27,605 Speaker 2: everybody else looked like, and I was studying their mannerisms, 372 00:18:28,085 --> 00:18:30,765 Speaker 2: but I don't know how I'm coming off to other people. 373 00:18:31,005 --> 00:18:33,245 Speaker 2: Part of what was fueling this or driving this was 374 00:18:33,685 --> 00:18:36,365 Speaker 2: I would have people come and stop by my cubicle 375 00:18:36,405 --> 00:18:38,885 Speaker 2: at work a couple of times a week and just 376 00:18:38,925 --> 00:18:40,765 Speaker 2: be like or even in the middle of a meeting, 377 00:18:40,845 --> 00:18:43,085 Speaker 2: like in a conference room somewhere, somebody would kind of 378 00:18:43,125 --> 00:18:45,845 Speaker 2: pull me aside and be like, are you okay? Everything okay? Like, yeah, 379 00:18:45,885 --> 00:18:48,605 Speaker 2: everything's fine. Why do you ask? Like you look so 380 00:18:48,885 --> 00:18:50,565 Speaker 2: angry right now, Like you look like you want to 381 00:18:50,645 --> 00:18:54,325 Speaker 2: kill someone. And it turns out you've heard of resting 382 00:18:54,405 --> 00:18:58,045 Speaker 2: bitch face. Yeah, so I've got resting psycho face apparently. 383 00:18:58,165 --> 00:19:01,365 Speaker 2: So the thing was I had this digital camera, so 384 00:19:01,405 --> 00:19:03,365 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is cool, you know, and 385 00:19:03,565 --> 00:19:05,965 Speaker 2: I could review it in real time. I must have 386 00:19:06,005 --> 00:19:08,725 Speaker 2: left the camera on the kitchen counter or something. That's 387 00:19:08,725 --> 00:19:11,885 Speaker 2: how my memory places on the kitchen counter. Kristen grabbed 388 00:19:11,925 --> 00:19:13,485 Speaker 2: it and she was like, oh, what are these and 389 00:19:13,525 --> 00:19:15,925 Speaker 2: she just started flipping through them and it was no 390 00:19:16,045 --> 00:19:18,285 Speaker 2: photos of our pet, it was no photos of our house. 391 00:19:18,365 --> 00:19:21,125 Speaker 2: It was just a million pictures of me making different 392 00:19:21,125 --> 00:19:22,125 Speaker 2: facial expressions. 393 00:19:22,765 --> 00:19:25,925 Speaker 3: And this is before selfies, the selfies wasn't even a word, right, 394 00:19:26,405 --> 00:19:28,965 Speaker 3: so that must have been really interesting for her, right, 395 00:19:29,285 --> 00:19:30,405 Speaker 3: And how did she react? 396 00:19:30,805 --> 00:19:34,285 Speaker 2: She laughed. She laughed so hard and for so long. 397 00:19:35,005 --> 00:19:38,365 Speaker 2: It wasn't just in the moment. Days later, anytime she 398 00:19:38,445 --> 00:19:42,325 Speaker 2: thought of it, she would just start like deep belly 399 00:19:42,365 --> 00:19:45,805 Speaker 2: laughing that would come from deep inside her soul would 400 00:19:45,845 --> 00:19:48,965 Speaker 2: just like erupt for she just thought it was great. 401 00:19:48,965 --> 00:19:51,765 Speaker 2: She was like, what a weird guy that I'm dating. 402 00:19:52,245 --> 00:19:55,525 Speaker 2: She loved it. She really loves people who are authentic. 403 00:19:55,645 --> 00:19:58,725 Speaker 2: She loves people who are not, you know, mass produced 404 00:19:58,805 --> 00:20:02,085 Speaker 2: humans that are kind of unique and quirky and strange. 405 00:20:02,445 --> 00:20:04,605 Speaker 3: You also wrote, she loved the story of how I 406 00:20:04,645 --> 00:20:07,245 Speaker 3: took an emergency leave from work to boil my glasses 407 00:20:07,245 --> 00:20:09,325 Speaker 3: after they'd fallen from my shirt pocket in a minute 408 00:20:09,525 --> 00:20:12,245 Speaker 3: room stall. She found it pitifully charming when I would 409 00:20:12,245 --> 00:20:15,085 Speaker 3: stand alone at parties kind of dancing, or follow with 410 00:20:15,125 --> 00:20:18,085 Speaker 3: her from room to room, unable to engage with anyone else. 411 00:20:18,445 --> 00:20:23,205 Speaker 3: That's just how it goes with Aspergers. Of course, you 412 00:20:23,245 --> 00:20:26,965 Speaker 3: didn't know that's what it was then, you were just quirky. 413 00:20:27,205 --> 00:20:30,205 Speaker 3: But she had a clue because she worked as a 414 00:20:30,245 --> 00:20:33,805 Speaker 3: speech pathologist who works with kids who are on the 415 00:20:33,845 --> 00:20:35,565 Speaker 3: spectrum right exactly. 416 00:20:35,845 --> 00:20:39,085 Speaker 2: And that's an interesting twist in all of this. So 417 00:20:39,605 --> 00:20:42,725 Speaker 2: I mentioned she really loves and just prefers in life 418 00:20:42,765 --> 00:20:46,245 Speaker 2: to be around quirky, unique individuals, and something that we 419 00:20:46,325 --> 00:20:48,885 Speaker 2: find in a lot of folks on the spectrum, the 420 00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:53,125 Speaker 2: autism spectrum certainly is this sort of quirkiness, and it's 421 00:20:53,165 --> 00:20:56,165 Speaker 2: a quirkiness that comes from a very innocent place. It's 422 00:20:56,205 --> 00:21:01,005 Speaker 2: not this wilful denial of social norms. It's just if 423 00:21:01,005 --> 00:21:03,285 Speaker 2: those norms haven't been presented to me in a way 424 00:21:03,325 --> 00:21:07,685 Speaker 2: that I've internalized and am willing to perpetuate and emulate. 425 00:21:08,405 --> 00:21:10,525 Speaker 2: I don't have time for it, so we end up 426 00:21:10,645 --> 00:21:14,285 Speaker 2: just acting the way we act. Her first professional love 427 00:21:14,325 --> 00:21:16,925 Speaker 2: in life was autism. Right after grad school, she was 428 00:21:16,965 --> 00:21:19,925 Speaker 2: working with kids with autism in the elementary school kind 429 00:21:19,965 --> 00:21:23,045 Speaker 2: of age group. And that's also when we started dating, 430 00:21:23,605 --> 00:21:27,245 Speaker 2: and she never quite lined up the two cards of 431 00:21:27,365 --> 00:21:31,285 Speaker 2: like autism and Dave. Then she started working with kids 432 00:21:31,285 --> 00:21:35,605 Speaker 2: with Asperger syndrome diagnoses, which is no longer technically a thing, 433 00:21:35,605 --> 00:21:37,085 Speaker 2: but it really is a thing. A lot of us 434 00:21:37,325 --> 00:21:41,605 Speaker 2: identify as having this particular quote unquote version or expression 435 00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:44,125 Speaker 2: of autism. However, you want to put it. She started 436 00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:47,245 Speaker 2: working with that population of kids, and then she started 437 00:21:47,285 --> 00:21:50,645 Speaker 2: meeting the dads and the moms of those kids, and 438 00:21:50,685 --> 00:21:54,845 Speaker 2: she was like, huh. And that's when she started to see, like, gee, 439 00:21:55,285 --> 00:21:59,485 Speaker 2: Dave's rigid flexibility. It wasn't called masking, like we didn't 440 00:21:59,525 --> 00:22:01,725 Speaker 2: have that word masking back then, but just the way 441 00:22:01,725 --> 00:22:05,125 Speaker 2: that Dave sort of puts on different characters, like he 442 00:22:05,205 --> 00:22:09,085 Speaker 2: wears personas, like other people wear outfits of clothing for 443 00:22:09,045 --> 00:22:13,125 Speaker 2: any different circumstance socially, you know, the way that I 444 00:22:13,205 --> 00:22:16,805 Speaker 2: would insist on sort of a routine. And there are 445 00:22:17,125 --> 00:22:21,725 Speaker 2: very clearly defined parameters for what constitutes a breakfast. And 446 00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:23,685 Speaker 2: if you haven't served me orange juice, we haven't had 447 00:22:23,685 --> 00:22:25,605 Speaker 2: breakfast yet. I can't get my day started yet, so 448 00:22:25,645 --> 00:22:27,645 Speaker 2: can you please get me some orange juice? All that 449 00:22:27,685 --> 00:22:32,205 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. She really then started to piece together that, 450 00:22:32,805 --> 00:22:36,645 Speaker 2: you know, gosh, Dave's very similar. I'm seeing a lot 451 00:22:36,685 --> 00:22:39,725 Speaker 2: of things that are consistent with these children and adults 452 00:22:39,725 --> 00:22:42,805 Speaker 2: with Asperger syndrome. And it's important to note here, and 453 00:22:42,845 --> 00:22:44,685 Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll get into it. It's important to note 454 00:22:44,725 --> 00:22:47,285 Speaker 2: here that at that time we had been married five 455 00:22:47,365 --> 00:22:51,165 Speaker 2: years and our marriage was not going well. 456 00:22:51,205 --> 00:22:54,325 Speaker 3: After this break, how David finally gets the diagnosis that 457 00:22:54,405 --> 00:22:58,925 Speaker 3: will change his life. 458 00:23:03,005 --> 00:23:05,885 Speaker 1: We will get into that you were married, you had kids. 459 00:23:06,285 --> 00:23:07,005 Speaker 1: Both of those. 460 00:23:06,805 --> 00:23:11,085 Speaker 3: Things can be quite to his nonderstatement, but can really 461 00:23:11,165 --> 00:23:14,445 Speaker 3: change the dynamics of a relationship and really be a 462 00:23:14,445 --> 00:23:15,965 Speaker 3: lot of stress on a person. 463 00:23:15,685 --> 00:23:18,885 Speaker 1: Particularly if the way your. 464 00:23:18,765 --> 00:23:23,285 Speaker 3: Aspergers manifested was that rigidity and around routines. Well, that's 465 00:23:23,325 --> 00:23:26,605 Speaker 3: one of the ways. What was marriage and fatherhood like 466 00:23:26,685 --> 00:23:29,405 Speaker 3: for you in those early years in terms of the 467 00:23:29,405 --> 00:23:32,205 Speaker 3: biggest struggles that were caused by your asperges? 468 00:23:32,805 --> 00:23:37,125 Speaker 2: So importantly we can draw a thick, solid line right 469 00:23:37,205 --> 00:23:41,445 Speaker 2: down the middle of what is a challenge because I 470 00:23:41,485 --> 00:23:44,925 Speaker 2: had aspergers, and what is a challenge just because it's 471 00:23:45,045 --> 00:23:48,405 Speaker 2: marriage and kids. So in some ways you almost have 472 00:23:48,485 --> 00:23:51,085 Speaker 2: to look at them separately if you really want to 473 00:23:51,285 --> 00:23:53,565 Speaker 2: get to the nuances of things. We'll start with marriage. 474 00:23:53,605 --> 00:23:56,845 Speaker 2: For me, marriage was okay, we are living together now 475 00:23:56,885 --> 00:24:02,205 Speaker 2: in the same house, and there's no shutdown period for me. 476 00:24:02,765 --> 00:24:04,525 Speaker 2: So when we were dating and we were not living 477 00:24:04,525 --> 00:24:06,565 Speaker 2: in the same house, we each had our own apartment. 478 00:24:07,005 --> 00:24:09,205 Speaker 2: I could spend the day with her, being the greatest 479 00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:11,245 Speaker 2: version of a boyfriend you've ever seen in your life, 480 00:24:11,285 --> 00:24:15,765 Speaker 2: like the quintessential excellent boyfriend, high energy, you know, very positive, 481 00:24:16,125 --> 00:24:19,565 Speaker 2: very willing to show up and do things, do that 482 00:24:19,605 --> 00:24:21,365 Speaker 2: all day long and then say all right, good night, 483 00:24:21,445 --> 00:24:24,325 Speaker 2: go back home to my apartment, and I could just recharge. 484 00:24:24,525 --> 00:24:25,925 Speaker 1: Didn't have to be on your best behavior. 485 00:24:26,045 --> 00:24:28,165 Speaker 2: You you didn't have to be on my best behavior. 486 00:24:27,805 --> 00:24:29,205 Speaker 1: Which is what we now call masking. 487 00:24:29,365 --> 00:24:30,765 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. 488 00:24:30,845 --> 00:24:32,605 Speaker 1: You could do all you we'd stuff alone. 489 00:24:32,685 --> 00:24:36,045 Speaker 2: I could take the mask off. And the mask was 490 00:24:36,085 --> 00:24:39,125 Speaker 2: crucial because as far as I was concerned, the mask 491 00:24:39,365 --> 00:24:42,605 Speaker 2: is what Kristen loved, not what was behind the mask. 492 00:24:42,765 --> 00:24:44,205 Speaker 2: So I was like, I don't wanted to see what's 493 00:24:44,245 --> 00:24:46,045 Speaker 2: behind the mask. You don't forget that. It's like the 494 00:24:46,085 --> 00:24:48,045 Speaker 2: Phantom of the Opera, right, Like, don't take that off. 495 00:24:48,525 --> 00:24:50,565 Speaker 2: Then when we were married, we were living together, there 496 00:24:50,725 --> 00:24:54,125 Speaker 2: was no opportunity to take off the mask without really 497 00:24:54,165 --> 00:24:57,085 Speaker 2: revealing what a troll I could be when you just 498 00:24:57,165 --> 00:24:59,085 Speaker 2: leave me to be one, right. 499 00:24:58,965 --> 00:25:00,685 Speaker 1: So in your view, in my. 500 00:25:00,805 --> 00:25:03,725 Speaker 2: View, right, So the insisting on you know, it's hamburg 501 00:25:03,765 --> 00:25:05,845 Speaker 2: er Tuesday. Why are we trying to now make a 502 00:25:05,885 --> 00:25:08,805 Speaker 2: taco Tuesday? We've always done hamburgers let's keep it with Hambergers, right, 503 00:25:08,925 --> 00:25:14,005 Speaker 2: so that that sort of inflexibility, persistent and intense preoccupations 504 00:25:14,045 --> 00:25:18,765 Speaker 2: with random, weird things. Those were the challenges in being 505 00:25:18,805 --> 00:25:22,165 Speaker 2: married was how do I adequately continue to show up 506 00:25:22,165 --> 00:25:26,845 Speaker 2: for Kristin when I have built this completely unsustainable masking 507 00:25:27,365 --> 00:25:32,285 Speaker 2: initiative or this and finding now that that is not sustainable. 508 00:25:32,565 --> 00:25:35,005 Speaker 2: And it's not like I was trying to trick Christin 509 00:25:35,045 --> 00:25:37,285 Speaker 2: into thinking I was some great version of myself. It 510 00:25:37,365 --> 00:25:40,445 Speaker 2: was more just that's what you do when the stakes 511 00:25:40,445 --> 00:25:44,165 Speaker 2: are high, right, So that was marriage, And in a 512 00:25:44,245 --> 00:25:47,605 Speaker 2: marriage there needs to be or in any relationship. You know, 513 00:25:47,645 --> 00:25:49,405 Speaker 2: marriage is just a piece of paper in some ways, 514 00:25:49,405 --> 00:25:55,405 Speaker 2: but in any worthy close relationship, I think the responsibility 515 00:25:55,405 --> 00:25:59,245 Speaker 2: for both people in that relationship is to love the 516 00:25:59,325 --> 00:26:03,165 Speaker 2: other person so freely that they're free to be themselves 517 00:26:03,245 --> 00:26:06,125 Speaker 2: at whatever stage in life they're in, whatever they're into, 518 00:26:06,805 --> 00:26:11,965 Speaker 2: and to celebrate that and to share moments together. In 519 00:26:12,125 --> 00:26:16,285 Speaker 2: my case, my only goal after the end of a 520 00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:22,165 Speaker 2: workday was preservation of sameness. And it was like Kristen 521 00:26:22,165 --> 00:26:26,765 Speaker 2: didn't want to be married to an agenda around preservation 522 00:26:26,845 --> 00:26:29,125 Speaker 2: of sameness. She wanted to be married to somebody who 523 00:26:29,165 --> 00:26:31,445 Speaker 2: could go and do fun things out in the world 524 00:26:31,565 --> 00:26:36,645 Speaker 2: without completely boiling over and having little man tantrums and 525 00:26:36,805 --> 00:26:39,165 Speaker 2: pouting and all the things that I would do, stomp 526 00:26:39,205 --> 00:26:42,205 Speaker 2: around and act mad for three days because my favorite 527 00:26:42,205 --> 00:26:43,965 Speaker 2: TV show is canceled or something. 528 00:26:43,885 --> 00:26:46,805 Speaker 3: And also withdrawing. You know you wrote in this essay 529 00:26:46,805 --> 00:26:49,845 Speaker 3: for the New York Times. It wasn't working any of it. 530 00:26:49,925 --> 00:26:52,085 Speaker 3: Our third year of marriage threatened to be our last. 531 00:26:52,125 --> 00:26:57,285 Speaker 3: I'd become cynical and withdrawn, obsessive and preoccupied, dismissive and unhelpful. 532 00:26:57,605 --> 00:27:00,445 Speaker 3: Ashamed by my seeming insanity, I withdrew until our life 533 00:27:00,485 --> 00:27:03,805 Speaker 3: together became long car rides without conversations and laughter, silent 534 00:27:03,845 --> 00:27:06,805 Speaker 3: evenings watching TV in the same room but feeling worlds apart, 535 00:27:07,405 --> 00:27:11,645 Speaker 3: months without any real connect The circle breaker didn't come 536 00:27:11,685 --> 00:27:15,405 Speaker 3: for another couple of years. Really, When one night Kristen 537 00:27:15,445 --> 00:27:17,445 Speaker 3: asked you to come to her office after the kids 538 00:27:17,485 --> 00:27:20,645 Speaker 3: were asleep, sounds like you're being someone to the principal's office. 539 00:27:20,645 --> 00:27:23,885 Speaker 3: She wanted you to take an online test for Aspergers, 540 00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:27,805 Speaker 3: but first she let you complete your eight thirty PM routine. 541 00:27:27,805 --> 00:27:29,005 Speaker 1: What was that routine? 542 00:27:29,405 --> 00:27:31,925 Speaker 2: At that time? The layout of our house was such 543 00:27:32,005 --> 00:27:35,005 Speaker 2: that after the kids would be in bed. They were 544 00:27:35,005 --> 00:27:38,325 Speaker 2: both like just single digits agely, like three and five 545 00:27:38,405 --> 00:27:41,405 Speaker 2: or something. They were both very young. I would basically 546 00:27:41,525 --> 00:27:45,725 Speaker 2: start in the kitchen and I would walk counterclockwise around 547 00:27:46,245 --> 00:27:48,485 Speaker 2: the first floor of our house, and I would just 548 00:27:48,525 --> 00:27:51,845 Speaker 2: go from room to room in a sequence and observe 549 00:27:52,525 --> 00:27:54,925 Speaker 2: which lights were on. The lights that were on, I 550 00:27:54,925 --> 00:27:57,565 Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily shut them off. I would just want to 551 00:27:57,565 --> 00:27:59,685 Speaker 2: know which ones are on. And sometimes I would kind 552 00:27:59,685 --> 00:28:01,765 Speaker 2: of like stare into it, have a moment with a 553 00:28:01,805 --> 00:28:03,925 Speaker 2: light bulb. Then I would stop at the front door 554 00:28:03,925 --> 00:28:05,525 Speaker 2: where we had two windows, and I would look out 555 00:28:05,525 --> 00:28:08,965 Speaker 2: the window and notice, like how I had to stand 556 00:28:09,125 --> 00:28:12,445 Speaker 2: so that the neighbor's rooftops would come into perfect parallel 557 00:28:12,525 --> 00:28:15,285 Speaker 2: alignment with each other. And you know, if you cock 558 00:28:15,325 --> 00:28:17,845 Speaker 2: your head a certain way, it kind of creates an angle. 559 00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:19,925 Speaker 2: So just getting that right, and when I could do 560 00:28:20,005 --> 00:28:23,365 Speaker 2: it so that the rooftops all lined up perfectly, it 561 00:28:23,405 --> 00:28:28,245 Speaker 2: would be this amazing relaxation, you know moment. It would 562 00:28:28,285 --> 00:28:30,085 Speaker 2: be like similar to when I was a kid pushing 563 00:28:30,085 --> 00:28:32,285 Speaker 2: myself along the floor with my head on the carpet. 564 00:28:32,925 --> 00:28:35,365 Speaker 2: For some reason, my shoulders would relax. It would feel amazing. 565 00:28:35,485 --> 00:28:38,685 Speaker 2: So then once I did that, I continue around, continue 566 00:28:38,685 --> 00:28:40,725 Speaker 2: my loop, just see what's on the TV. If it's 567 00:28:40,725 --> 00:28:43,245 Speaker 2: something loud and obnoxious, turn it off. If it's something good, 568 00:28:43,365 --> 00:28:47,445 Speaker 2: keep it on. It was a way to essentially reset 569 00:28:47,525 --> 00:28:50,325 Speaker 2: for my evening, which was to get the lay of 570 00:28:50,325 --> 00:28:52,285 Speaker 2: the land. What's going on in the house. Are there 571 00:28:52,285 --> 00:28:56,965 Speaker 2: any variables or factors that I want to address, like 572 00:28:57,285 --> 00:28:59,645 Speaker 2: do I not feel like having a bright evening? Which 573 00:28:59,725 --> 00:29:01,965 Speaker 2: lights would I turn off? Right? So it was like 574 00:29:02,005 --> 00:29:06,045 Speaker 2: this very deliberate, but very essential to what we would 575 00:29:06,085 --> 00:29:09,925 Speaker 2: call now my emotional regulation. It was very essential to 576 00:29:09,925 --> 00:29:12,405 Speaker 2: that to getting me regulated for the rest of my night, 577 00:29:12,485 --> 00:29:14,765 Speaker 2: because the rest of my night was now I have 578 00:29:14,885 --> 00:29:17,685 Speaker 2: to really show up and try to be a good 579 00:29:17,725 --> 00:29:20,405 Speaker 2: partner to Kristen. I needed that time and she knew that. 580 00:29:20,845 --> 00:29:23,845 Speaker 1: So you did the test, You iced the test. If 581 00:29:23,885 --> 00:29:25,605 Speaker 1: the objective of the test was to be. 582 00:29:25,605 --> 00:29:29,845 Speaker 3: Diagnosed with aspects, how did you feel once you had 583 00:29:29,885 --> 00:29:31,725 Speaker 3: a word for the quirkiness? 584 00:29:31,765 --> 00:29:35,085 Speaker 2: That was Dave, It was so interesting. I didn't know 585 00:29:35,125 --> 00:29:37,365 Speaker 2: that we were doing an Asperger's test. She did, obviously, 586 00:29:37,405 --> 00:29:40,325 Speaker 2: but I thought it was some kind of magazine quiz, 587 00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:42,885 Speaker 2: like a Cosmo quiz. You know what kind of celebrity 588 00:29:42,885 --> 00:29:46,045 Speaker 2: pet would you be? Answered these ten questions. I just 589 00:29:46,085 --> 00:29:47,485 Speaker 2: thought it was this, but then it ended up being 590 00:29:47,525 --> 00:29:50,125 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty five questions or something crazy. But 591 00:29:50,645 --> 00:29:53,685 Speaker 2: I scored so high on this thing for Asperger's. It 592 00:29:53,725 --> 00:29:56,045 Speaker 2: was like, first of all, it was an online test 593 00:29:56,125 --> 00:29:59,405 Speaker 2: something called like Asperger Quiz or aspe quiz or something, 594 00:29:59,445 --> 00:30:04,525 Speaker 2: and it was all these qualifying questions and it was 595 00:30:04,565 --> 00:30:09,805 Speaker 2: by no means a genuine or reliable diagnostic tool that 596 00:30:09,925 --> 00:30:13,645 Speaker 2: diagnosticians would use. It was more like directionally accurate a 597 00:30:13,685 --> 00:30:14,245 Speaker 2: weather vein. 598 00:30:14,605 --> 00:30:16,565 Speaker 1: Maybe get this checked out by a professional. 599 00:30:16,725 --> 00:30:19,205 Speaker 2: Totally like you might want to go see somebody for this. 600 00:30:19,245 --> 00:30:21,805 Speaker 3: And you got the yeah, maybe head straight to a 601 00:30:21,805 --> 00:30:25,685 Speaker 3: professional as soon as the sun comes up. Maybe rush 602 00:30:26,045 --> 00:30:27,525 Speaker 3: drive now, can't you call? 603 00:30:28,485 --> 00:30:30,605 Speaker 2: It's right when we click to calculate my score, just 604 00:30:30,645 --> 00:30:34,765 Speaker 2: the emergency bells started ringing and psychologists were repelling down 605 00:30:34,765 --> 00:30:36,605 Speaker 2: the side of my house in swat Here. 606 00:30:40,645 --> 00:30:43,405 Speaker 1: Didn't feel good to have a word for it. 607 00:30:43,405 --> 00:30:47,565 Speaker 2: It felt amazing. And the reason why is it can 608 00:30:47,605 --> 00:30:51,085 Speaker 2: be a very different experience for everybody, and nobody's reaction 609 00:30:51,325 --> 00:30:55,565 Speaker 2: to getting an autism spectrum diagnosis is the wrong reaction. 610 00:30:55,685 --> 00:30:58,085 Speaker 2: It's always going to be the right reaction for them. 611 00:30:58,565 --> 00:31:01,605 Speaker 2: For me, it felt like this big moment of relief. 612 00:31:01,645 --> 00:31:04,925 Speaker 2: It actually felt like I was witnessing myself at a 613 00:31:04,965 --> 00:31:08,765 Speaker 2: point of rebirth, or witnessing my own birth. It was, Oh, 614 00:31:08,925 --> 00:31:12,605 Speaker 2: that's who I am. All of these questions, which were 615 00:31:12,645 --> 00:31:15,725 Speaker 2: things like, do you find it vitally important to remain 616 00:31:16,525 --> 00:31:20,405 Speaker 2: uninterrupted or undisturbed when you're focusing on interests that you're 617 00:31:20,445 --> 00:31:24,085 Speaker 2: absorbed in? Do you require lengthy periods of time to recharge? 618 00:31:24,165 --> 00:31:26,405 Speaker 2: Do you do better in social situations when you can 619 00:31:26,445 --> 00:31:29,885 Speaker 2: script your responses to potential questions well in advance and 620 00:31:30,005 --> 00:31:33,525 Speaker 2: rehearse them. All these things that I did that I 621 00:31:33,685 --> 00:31:38,045 Speaker 2: knew none of my immediate friend group or my peers 622 00:31:38,525 --> 00:31:42,285 Speaker 2: were really doing. And so when you're going through life 623 00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:46,765 Speaker 2: in a way that is markedly different from the folks 624 00:31:46,805 --> 00:31:49,845 Speaker 2: around you and sort of your cohort growing up, you 625 00:31:49,885 --> 00:31:52,925 Speaker 2: start to feel like a broken toy or what somebody 626 00:31:52,965 --> 00:31:55,485 Speaker 2: once described and I don't know who described it this way, 627 00:31:55,605 --> 00:31:57,565 Speaker 2: and I would give them credit if I could remember. 628 00:31:58,125 --> 00:32:01,565 Speaker 2: They describe it as being a failed version of normal. 629 00:32:02,285 --> 00:32:03,925 Speaker 2: You feel like a failed version of normal. 630 00:32:04,165 --> 00:32:05,205 Speaker 1: Ooh yeah, you. 631 00:32:05,205 --> 00:32:06,965 Speaker 2: Know what I mean. And then somebody hands you this 632 00:32:07,885 --> 00:32:11,525 Speaker 2: moment where they essentially give you the user manual to 633 00:32:11,605 --> 00:32:14,525 Speaker 2: your brain and they say, you're not a failed version 634 00:32:14,565 --> 00:32:17,765 Speaker 2: of normal, You're a very successful version of Dave. You 635 00:32:17,885 --> 00:32:21,805 Speaker 2: are exactly what you're supposed to be, and this is, 636 00:32:22,005 --> 00:32:25,485 Speaker 2: by the way, how your brain works, and it's not 637 00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:28,245 Speaker 2: supposed to be the same as everybody else's. For me, 638 00:32:28,485 --> 00:32:32,485 Speaker 2: the moment was electric. For Kristen, it was the same 639 00:32:32,525 --> 00:32:35,525 Speaker 2: exact way. I just remember her eyes were dancing like 640 00:32:35,805 --> 00:32:40,885 Speaker 2: champagne with a with a megawatt flashlight shining into the glasses. 641 00:32:41,405 --> 00:32:45,925 Speaker 2: She was so amped up about like, dude, this describes you, 642 00:32:46,045 --> 00:32:49,805 Speaker 2: Like isn't this amazing? So she as somebody who just adored, 643 00:32:50,045 --> 00:32:52,725 Speaker 2: loved and was a big fangirl of the autistic brain, 644 00:32:53,485 --> 00:32:55,925 Speaker 2: she was electrified. She was like, this is amazing. So 645 00:32:56,005 --> 00:33:00,045 Speaker 2: we both took this as fantastic news. What I then 646 00:33:00,165 --> 00:33:01,885 Speaker 2: ended up doing, you know, she kissed me on the 647 00:33:01,885 --> 00:33:05,885 Speaker 2: forehead and she went upstairs and she said, this explains 648 00:33:06,085 --> 00:33:08,805 Speaker 2: so much. You know, all this stuff in our marriage 649 00:33:08,805 --> 00:33:12,645 Speaker 2: that has been challenging and making me want to kick 650 00:33:12,685 --> 00:33:15,285 Speaker 2: you in the teeth multiple times a day, all the 651 00:33:15,325 --> 00:33:18,325 Speaker 2: things that are causing such challenge. She's like, I know 652 00:33:18,485 --> 00:33:21,205 Speaker 2: now that it's not your fault. You're not willfully being 653 00:33:21,725 --> 00:33:25,685 Speaker 2: this pain in the butt. This is really important For 654 00:33:25,725 --> 00:33:29,245 Speaker 2: some reason, that gave her license to see me in 655 00:33:29,285 --> 00:33:31,845 Speaker 2: a different light, to forgive me. She kissed me on 656 00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:34,365 Speaker 2: the forehead, she said, I love you. She went upstairs 657 00:33:34,365 --> 00:33:36,445 Speaker 2: and she slept better than she had slept in years. 658 00:33:37,045 --> 00:33:39,085 Speaker 2: Oh wow, Now I just found out I had a 659 00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:41,045 Speaker 2: form of autism. So I was like blown away. I 660 00:33:41,045 --> 00:33:43,725 Speaker 2: couldn't sleep. I was like what, So I started googling 661 00:33:43,725 --> 00:33:46,685 Speaker 2: everything like that crisis. Probably the worst thing anybody can 662 00:33:46,725 --> 00:33:50,765 Speaker 2: do is start googling autism spectrum conditions because there's so 663 00:33:50,885 --> 00:33:53,445 Speaker 2: much misinformation, gloom and doom. You really have to be 664 00:33:53,565 --> 00:33:58,845 Speaker 2: judicious about what information sources you are going to when 665 00:33:58,885 --> 00:34:01,965 Speaker 2: you're trying to learn about autism and related conditions. 666 00:34:01,525 --> 00:34:06,725 Speaker 3: Like googling anything anything that in totally it's interesting what 667 00:34:06,765 --> 00:34:10,525 Speaker 3: you say about the manual, because you I then decided 668 00:34:10,605 --> 00:34:13,765 Speaker 3: to write a book called The Journal of Best Practices, 669 00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:17,725 Speaker 3: a memoir of marriage, Asperger Syndrome and one man's quest 670 00:34:17,725 --> 00:34:18,005 Speaker 3: to be. 671 00:34:17,965 --> 00:34:21,365 Speaker 1: A better husband. What was the book about and what 672 00:34:21,565 --> 00:34:21,965 Speaker 1: was in it? 673 00:34:22,325 --> 00:34:26,725 Speaker 2: The book, interestingly enough you can take autism aspurgers right 674 00:34:26,765 --> 00:34:29,045 Speaker 2: out of it. Because in the end the book ended 675 00:34:29,125 --> 00:34:31,925 Speaker 2: up selling very well because in the end people recognized 676 00:34:31,925 --> 00:34:34,005 Speaker 2: in it that Chrisin and I are just a couple. 677 00:34:34,285 --> 00:34:37,445 Speaker 2: We're working our way through our stuff. But at the 678 00:34:37,525 --> 00:34:39,885 Speaker 2: end of the day, it's couple stuff. It's stuff that 679 00:34:39,925 --> 00:34:42,965 Speaker 2: everybody deals with, just we might be dealing with some 680 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:46,725 Speaker 2: things to a comically high degree. That book was really 681 00:34:46,805 --> 00:34:50,285 Speaker 2: truly the story behind all of the maxims that I 682 00:34:50,325 --> 00:34:53,125 Speaker 2: started to write down these little personal rules for myself 683 00:34:53,405 --> 00:34:55,405 Speaker 2: about how to be a better husband, how to be 684 00:34:55,965 --> 00:34:59,125 Speaker 2: a more successful version of normal, we'll say, a more 685 00:34:59,125 --> 00:35:03,045 Speaker 2: traditional looking kind of guy. And anytime Chrisin and I 686 00:35:03,085 --> 00:35:06,805 Speaker 2: would get into an argument a debate, anytime I realized 687 00:35:06,845 --> 00:35:09,725 Speaker 2: I had screwed something up and I could take lesson 688 00:35:09,765 --> 00:35:13,165 Speaker 2: away from that, I would then write down the lesson learned, 689 00:35:13,605 --> 00:35:16,445 Speaker 2: like don't take just what you need from the dryer, 690 00:35:17,125 --> 00:35:19,325 Speaker 2: take all the clothes out and fold them, don't just 691 00:35:19,365 --> 00:35:21,845 Speaker 2: pick through and find the right socks right, don't sneak 692 00:35:21,925 --> 00:35:26,045 Speaker 2: up on her and scare her. These are good lessons 693 00:35:26,085 --> 00:35:28,485 Speaker 2: to yes, like don't change the radio station when she's 694 00:35:28,485 --> 00:35:31,365 Speaker 2: singing along. Just stuff like that. But then that's like, 695 00:35:31,565 --> 00:35:34,285 Speaker 2: how to not be part of my expression is how 696 00:35:34,325 --> 00:35:35,245 Speaker 2: to not be an asshole? 697 00:35:35,445 --> 00:35:38,805 Speaker 3: An asshole? Yeah, but you weren't being deliberately an asshole. 698 00:35:38,925 --> 00:35:42,885 Speaker 3: You just literally had to learn these things. I want 699 00:35:42,885 --> 00:35:44,765 Speaker 3: to know more. Tell me more of those rules that 700 00:35:44,805 --> 00:35:48,205 Speaker 3: would seem so obvious but clearly helped many many men 701 00:35:48,245 --> 00:35:49,205 Speaker 3: when you wrote them down. 702 00:35:49,405 --> 00:35:51,685 Speaker 2: It did end up being nice breadcrumbs for other men 703 00:35:51,725 --> 00:35:54,605 Speaker 2: to follow, I will admit and other partners. But some 704 00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:56,845 Speaker 2: of the other ones were a little more we'll say, 705 00:35:57,525 --> 00:36:00,045 Speaker 2: less playful. So the more playful ones were like don't 706 00:36:00,085 --> 00:36:02,605 Speaker 2: change the radio station when she's singing along. But there 707 00:36:02,605 --> 00:36:05,885 Speaker 2: are other really important ones like apologies don't count when 708 00:36:05,885 --> 00:36:10,325 Speaker 2: you shout them, for instance, or listen within hathic mind 709 00:36:10,565 --> 00:36:14,685 Speaker 2: like so I had to actually practice empathy. I remember 710 00:36:14,725 --> 00:36:17,525 Speaker 2: one of them, probably the one that stands out so 711 00:36:17,645 --> 00:36:21,405 Speaker 2: clearly in my mind. The most for whatever reason, is initiative, 712 00:36:21,885 --> 00:36:25,485 Speaker 2: and the best practice was take initiative, but don't ask 713 00:36:25,565 --> 00:36:28,885 Speaker 2: Kristin for a high five after you've taken initiative, right, 714 00:36:28,925 --> 00:36:30,925 Speaker 2: So I had to tape that one to my mirror. 715 00:36:31,445 --> 00:36:34,485 Speaker 2: So in our marriage, when the kids were real little, 716 00:36:34,805 --> 00:36:38,805 Speaker 2: I thought my role as husband. The paradigm was I work, 717 00:36:39,245 --> 00:36:41,605 Speaker 2: make the money, and then I come home from work. 718 00:36:41,965 --> 00:36:43,925 Speaker 2: The rest of the day should be about me recovering 719 00:36:43,965 --> 00:36:46,405 Speaker 2: from a workday and not having to do too much. Right, 720 00:36:46,765 --> 00:36:49,325 Speaker 2: I'm not alone in that. Everybody wants that. Of course, 721 00:36:49,805 --> 00:36:51,565 Speaker 2: it's the dream, and it's the selfish dream. 722 00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:51,805 Speaker 1: Right. 723 00:36:52,285 --> 00:36:57,245 Speaker 2: So, Kristin I perceived her role as being anything related 724 00:36:57,285 --> 00:37:02,085 Speaker 2: to the kids or general household upkeep. Kristin is like 725 00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:04,405 Speaker 2: the first lines of defense on that, and if she 726 00:37:04,525 --> 00:37:06,285 Speaker 2: needs help with any of it, she can pull me 727 00:37:06,405 --> 00:37:08,765 Speaker 2: in and tell me specifically what she needs me to 728 00:37:08,805 --> 00:37:10,845 Speaker 2: do if I have time to do that. Right. Like, 729 00:37:10,885 --> 00:37:12,725 Speaker 2: That's how selfish and horrible I was at the time. 730 00:37:13,125 --> 00:37:14,765 Speaker 2: I'm not like that anymore. I just want to say, 731 00:37:15,205 --> 00:37:17,925 Speaker 2: but that was such a huge blind spot on my 732 00:37:18,085 --> 00:37:21,565 Speaker 2: part that when I told Kristin, hey, listen, thank you 733 00:37:21,605 --> 00:37:23,805 Speaker 2: for bringing to my attention that I'm on the spectrum. 734 00:37:23,805 --> 00:37:26,765 Speaker 2: This is really helpful. I noticed that our marriage sucks. 735 00:37:27,285 --> 00:37:29,085 Speaker 2: I can't help but think that to a certain extent, 736 00:37:29,165 --> 00:37:30,685 Speaker 2: I kind of suck. So I want to learn how 737 00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:32,485 Speaker 2: to not suck anymore. I want to do the things 738 00:37:32,485 --> 00:37:34,485 Speaker 2: that would make me a better husband, a better partner. 739 00:37:35,405 --> 00:37:39,125 Speaker 2: First of all, to her credit, she never said, oh good, 740 00:37:39,165 --> 00:37:41,085 Speaker 2: I can capitalize in this and I can sort of 741 00:37:41,765 --> 00:37:45,285 Speaker 2: custom make my own custom version of a man that 742 00:37:45,365 --> 00:37:46,045 Speaker 2: I want to have. 743 00:37:46,405 --> 00:37:47,405 Speaker 1: Build her own husband. 744 00:37:47,485 --> 00:37:52,045 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, build her. She looked at it and said, Dave, 745 00:37:52,285 --> 00:37:54,965 Speaker 2: I appreciate what you're getting at here, but you need 746 00:37:55,005 --> 00:37:59,205 Speaker 2: to understand you're not broken. Our marriage is broken. You 747 00:37:59,245 --> 00:38:03,005 Speaker 2: don't need to be fixed or repaired or change our marriage. 748 00:38:03,005 --> 00:38:06,845 Speaker 2: Our relationship fundamentally has broken down and needs to be repaired. 749 00:38:07,205 --> 00:38:09,245 Speaker 2: We can do that together. We're not going to be 750 00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:12,645 Speaker 2: fixing you or making you something you're not, but we 751 00:38:12,765 --> 00:38:15,645 Speaker 2: have information now that we can build a context around 752 00:38:15,685 --> 00:38:17,485 Speaker 2: the reality of who you are. And I was like, oh, 753 00:38:17,485 --> 00:38:18,365 Speaker 2: that makes a lot more sense. 754 00:38:18,445 --> 00:38:18,605 Speaker 1: Right. 755 00:38:18,725 --> 00:38:21,405 Speaker 2: So, but with this initiative thing, one of the very 756 00:38:21,405 --> 00:38:24,085 Speaker 2: first things early on that she said was it is 757 00:38:24,165 --> 00:38:27,405 Speaker 2: exhausting trying to stay a few steps ahead of you 758 00:38:27,685 --> 00:38:31,765 Speaker 2: so that you don't have some emotional downward spiral and 759 00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:34,365 Speaker 2: lose your mind because we didn't have the right kind 760 00:38:34,405 --> 00:38:38,485 Speaker 2: of sandwiches for you know, the guests or whatever. That's exhausting, 761 00:38:38,525 --> 00:38:41,805 Speaker 2: But it's also there is so much going on, just 762 00:38:41,925 --> 00:38:46,325 Speaker 2: keeping the house going, keeping the kids fed, clean clothes whatever. That. 763 00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:49,725 Speaker 2: She's like, I feel like you're just kind of standing 764 00:38:49,725 --> 00:38:51,885 Speaker 2: on the sidelines watching me do it. And I was like, well, yeah, 765 00:38:51,885 --> 00:38:54,085 Speaker 2: that's that's what I feel like my role should be 766 00:38:54,125 --> 00:38:55,765 Speaker 2: right now. I don't want to get in your way. 767 00:38:55,805 --> 00:38:57,925 Speaker 2: And she immediately called bs on me. She's like, you 768 00:38:57,925 --> 00:38:59,525 Speaker 2: don't care about getting in my way. You just don't 769 00:38:59,565 --> 00:39:01,685 Speaker 2: want to get your hands dirty doing all this other shit. 770 00:39:02,245 --> 00:39:04,365 Speaker 2: She was absolutely right. 771 00:39:04,285 --> 00:39:06,965 Speaker 3: Which sounds like this stuff just of marriages, right, Like, 772 00:39:07,045 --> 00:39:10,045 Speaker 3: that's an argument that my HU and I have in 773 00:39:10,085 --> 00:39:12,725 Speaker 3: different ways all the time, and I think is just 774 00:39:12,765 --> 00:39:16,045 Speaker 3: typical of most couples because it seems on paper you 775 00:39:16,125 --> 00:39:18,965 Speaker 3: were working so hard, so diligently, you were making it 776 00:39:19,005 --> 00:39:22,285 Speaker 3: such a project, your life's work. Almost literally, you wrote 777 00:39:22,285 --> 00:39:26,005 Speaker 3: a best selling book on how to be a better husband. 778 00:39:27,125 --> 00:39:29,245 Speaker 3: So tell me about the day you were in the 779 00:39:29,245 --> 00:39:31,925 Speaker 3: bathroom and she came to you and said, I want 780 00:39:31,925 --> 00:39:32,845 Speaker 3: to get unmarried. 781 00:39:33,565 --> 00:39:36,605 Speaker 2: My gosh, yeah. 782 00:39:36,005 --> 00:39:38,925 Speaker 3: Now if you like me any thinking, Wait, hasn't David 783 00:39:39,005 --> 00:39:41,925 Speaker 3: been kind of killing it as a husband. Not a 784 00:39:41,925 --> 00:39:44,245 Speaker 3: lot of men are willing to do so much work 785 00:39:44,365 --> 00:39:48,445 Speaker 3: on themselves and with their partner. I mean, he literally 786 00:39:48,965 --> 00:39:51,125 Speaker 3: wrote a book about how to be a better husband. 787 00:39:51,965 --> 00:39:54,485 Speaker 3: So why did his wife want to unmarry him? It 788 00:39:54,565 --> 00:39:59,445 Speaker 3: seems unreasonable and what does getting unmarried even mean? And 789 00:39:59,525 --> 00:40:02,005 Speaker 3: obviously you know I'm going to ask him about sex 790 00:40:02,045 --> 00:40:04,925 Speaker 3: because this is no filter, after all, and I have none. 791 00:40:05,605 --> 00:40:08,245 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert. Unmarried the way. 792 00:40:08,245 --> 00:40:11,565 Speaker 3: David describes it, it is incredibly appealing. 793 00:40:12,085 --> 00:40:14,245 Speaker 1: There's a link in our show notes. Don't miss it. 794 00:40:14,525 --> 00:40:15,405 Speaker 1: See you in part two.