WEBVTT - Who Cares Who You Sleep With

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on.

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<v Speaker 3>Who cares who you sleep with?

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<v Speaker 1>Yuck?

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<v Speaker 3>You're old?

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<v Speaker 2>No one wants to think about you having sex? Gross,

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<v Speaker 2>Keep it to yourself. Hasn't that part of your life

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<v Speaker 2>kind of ended? Don't embarrass your children? Do you even

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<v Speaker 2>want that anymore? Shush, don't make a thing of it,

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<v Speaker 2>put it away. Who cares who you sleep with? You

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<v Speaker 2>do and what you care about still matters? Hiding a

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<v Speaker 2>part of yourself that's essential to who you are. Isn't

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<v Speaker 2>the freedom you've waited so long for. Sex and sexuality

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<v Speaker 2>is not only for the young and the lineless. Joy

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<v Speaker 2>and pleasure and connection has no time limit. Truth has

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<v Speaker 2>no deadline. You've had your time. Shush up about desire

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<v Speaker 2>and love and longing. Now it's not your turn. So selfish.

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<v Speaker 2>This idea has trapped plenty of women in places they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't belong, when actually the opposite is true. Now you

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot more experience and a lot less time,

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<v Speaker 2>So why would you waste it? Not being who you are,

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<v Speaker 2>not asking for what you need, not getting the pleasure

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<v Speaker 2>until now? Only played out in the privacy of fantasy,

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<v Speaker 2>not feeling the feelings.

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<v Speaker 3>You weren't raised with a name for that.

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<v Speaker 2>You were taught to fear and shove aside, push away

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<v Speaker 2>into a voiceless corner. Who cares who you sleep with

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<v Speaker 2>now you're mid whether you do or you don't, how

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<v Speaker 2>much or how little, how often, how rarely, whether you

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<v Speaker 2>even like it or not?

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<v Speaker 3>Who cares?

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<v Speaker 2>If you're stuck wondering what else there is, Whether there's

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<v Speaker 2>a truer expression of you somewhere, whether there's a craving

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<v Speaker 2>for a deep companionship or a cheap thrill you can

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<v Speaker 2>no longer ignore, And who cares? What the world knows

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<v Speaker 2>about who you really are? The answer to all of that.

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<v Speaker 3>Is, as you do.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,

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<v Speaker 2>mid family, mid learning, and this is mid your podcast

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<v Speaker 2>for gen X women who are anything. But what if

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<v Speaker 2>it took you until mid to say out loud something

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<v Speaker 2>that you've been trying to find the words for your

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<v Speaker 2>whole life, Something like, yes, I know I'm a mother

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<v Speaker 2>married to a man, but I'm also bisexual. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>story of today's guest, The novelist Julie Cohen. Julie was

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<v Speaker 2>in her forties when she came out as bisexual. You

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<v Speaker 2>can hear some of the reactions to that decision echoed

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<v Speaker 2>in my intro today. Some people, she says, asked her

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<v Speaker 2>why she bothered, as if age itself renders your sexuality irrelevant.

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<v Speaker 2>Some people, she says, suggested that just as an adolescent

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<v Speaker 2>sexuality can be dismissed as a phase, perhaps hers was simply.

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<v Speaker 3>A mid life crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>Her husband, Julie says, not surprised they're divorced after a while,

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<v Speaker 2>although she's very clear that wasn't as a result of

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<v Speaker 2>her sexuality, and slowly in lockdown, she started to date

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<v Speaker 2>women dating after divorce, navigating the apps in the first

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<v Speaker 2>post long term relationship. Sexual encounters are interesting and nerve

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<v Speaker 2>wracking for anyone, and Julie says it was no different

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<v Speaker 2>for her. You're going to hear how it all went,

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<v Speaker 2>the pleasures of post penis sex, what she found. The

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<v Speaker 2>differences are between dating men and women and just how

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<v Speaker 2>it felt to be living the version of herself that

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<v Speaker 2>Julie says when she was growing up she didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a word for. This is the last episode of Mid

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<v Speaker 2>for twenty twenty four. My friends, there are plenty of

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<v Speaker 2>other interesting little morsels of content are going to be

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<v Speaker 2>popping up in your midfeed over the next six weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>some expert conversations about Perry and menopause, some gen X

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<v Speaker 2>storytelling podcasts and interviews that I think you're going to love.

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<v Speaker 2>But as for Mid, we're going to be back with

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<v Speaker 2>you in twenty twenty five with all kinds of new things.

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<v Speaker 2>We wanted to leave you with a really honest conversation

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<v Speaker 2>about how it feels to be finally living as you

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<v Speaker 2>in the mid.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome Julie Cohen.

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<v Speaker 2>Julie, I'd love to start by reading out the opening

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<v Speaker 2>of an essay you wrote for Medium five years ago now,

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<v Speaker 2>and the title of that was I came out as

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<v Speaker 2>bisexual in midlife, and you wrote in my forties and

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<v Speaker 2>having been married to the same man for twenty years,

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<v Speaker 2>I came out to my family and friends as bisexual.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd known for a while that I was attracted to

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<v Speaker 2>more than one gender, but I never felt the need

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about it publicly or to define my sexuality

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<v Speaker 2>for other people. Looking back at my teens and twenties,

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<v Speaker 2>the time when many people are discovering their sexuality. I

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<v Speaker 2>really didn't know that bisexuality even existed. I grew up

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<v Speaker 2>in a small town in Maine in the seventies and eighties.

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<v Speaker 2>I had gay male friends, but I didn't know any

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<v Speaker 2>out lesbians. I only ever heard the word bisexual applied

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<v Speaker 2>to David Bowie, who clearly lived by different rules than

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<v Speaker 2>ordinary mortals. I knew I liked men, so I figured

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<v Speaker 2>I must be straight. When I had intense feelings towards women,

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<v Speaker 2>including emotional and physical attraction, I defined them as friendship.

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<v Speaker 2>Gradually I came to realize that it was more than that.

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<v Speaker 2>But by then I was in a relationship with a man.

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<v Speaker 2>I was building a career, negotiating a marriage, being a parent.

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<v Speaker 2>I hardly had time to breathe. Why bother to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about my sexuality, Julie, Can you tell me how and

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<v Speaker 2>when it became essential for you to talk about your sexuality.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was a professional decision as well as

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<v Speaker 1>a personal one. As a novelist, I'm drawn to certain

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<v Speaker 1>subjects and I can't help but want to write about them.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, when you're writing a novel, you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to spend a year or so with a certain subject,

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<v Speaker 1>and I started being more and more attracted to writing

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<v Speaker 1>seam gender love stories, particularly love stories between women, and

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, because I was exploring that so much in

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<v Speaker 1>my fiction, it would be and I have to say

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<v Speaker 1>this before I say anything, it is really important never

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<v Speaker 1>to out anybody or for anybody to feel that they

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<v Speaker 1>need to out themselves. Your sexuality is your own business,

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<v Speaker 1>and when you come out of the closet is completely

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<v Speaker 1>and utterly up to you. But for myself, I felt

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<v Speaker 1>that it would be more authentic to my own voice

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<v Speaker 1>and my own stories and my own life if I

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<v Speaker 1>came out publicly to my readers.

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<v Speaker 2>Was it a mystery to you in any way why

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<v Speaker 2>you were really drawn to writing those relationships at that

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<v Speaker 2>time when you were married to a man.

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<v Speaker 1>No, not really, No, you knew. I knew. I really

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<v Speaker 1>did know. I was writing a story at one point

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<v Speaker 1>about this time, I was writing a story about It

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<v Speaker 1>was called The Two Lives of Louis and Louise, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was about one person called lou who it's a

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<v Speaker 1>sliding doors story and in one reality born as a

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<v Speaker 1>cisgender man, and in the other reality they're born as

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<v Speaker 1>a cisgender woman. And that's the only difference between them,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's the two stories. There are two stories, making

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<v Speaker 1>one story of one person, and how because of their gender,

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<v Speaker 1>everything about them changed, everything about the life around them

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<v Speaker 1>changed the people around them too, because not because of

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<v Speaker 1>who they were, but because of how they were treated

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<v Speaker 1>because of their gender. And in order to make that

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<v Speaker 1>story work and to give it the ending I really wanted,

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<v Speaker 1>Lou had to be bisexual and be bisexual in both realities.

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<v Speaker 1>And that felt like coming home. So much of that

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<v Speaker 1>writing felt like coming home to me. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>I was writing that about the same time that I

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<v Speaker 1>wrote that essay, and I just wanted to be more

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<v Speaker 1>authentic with my voice and with the people around me

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<v Speaker 1>and just say, yeah, really, this is a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>my feelings too.

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<v Speaker 2>You talk a little bit about how there was among

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<v Speaker 2>some people there was a bit of an idea, well,

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<v Speaker 2>who cares, like you know, who cares who you're attracted to?

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<v Speaker 2>Who cares who you're sleeping with? Why do you have

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<v Speaker 2>to tell everybody? There's kind of an undercurrent in your writing,

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<v Speaker 2>and you write, which I found really really profound.

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<v Speaker 3>You wrote, I care.

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<v Speaker 2>It isn't irrelevant to me, It's part of my emotions

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<v Speaker 2>my thoughts, My choice is my work, the things I create.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a middle aged woman and I still matter. And

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<v Speaker 2>I hope that being open about my sexuality might help

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<v Speaker 2>other people like me who are struggling with being open

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<v Speaker 2>about this.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely to a certain extent, saying who cares who you're

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<v Speaker 1>attracted to is homophobia, as we know, it's also agism,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think the most insidious homophobia and agism is

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<v Speaker 1>the internalized variety. So the kind you feel about yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about that. It's what I was writing in

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<v Speaker 1>that essay when I said, who cares what I think?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm only a middle aged woman. I'm only a mom

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<v Speaker 1>who cares if I fancy women as well as men.

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<v Speaker 1>It's irrelevant to everybody around me. But the thing is

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<v Speaker 1>that we live in a mostly straight world. We live

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<v Speaker 1>in a world with compulsive heterosexuality, which is what I

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<v Speaker 1>was talking about in that essay when I said I

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<v Speaker 1>was attracted to men, so I must be straight. And

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<v Speaker 1>unless you say otherwise, people assume that you are straight,

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<v Speaker 1>and that assumption makes it raises a lot of yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think we are subject to that assumption because

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<v Speaker 1>of our age too, and the fact if you're a mother.

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<v Speaker 1>There are so many assumptions made about you as a

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<v Speaker 1>human being that unless you stand up against them and say, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a mom and I love it. But I'm another

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<v Speaker 1>person too. You know, I'm in my forties, I'm in

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<v Speaker 1>my fifties, but I still matter. Unless you say those

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<v Speaker 1>things out loud, you allow other people to write the

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<v Speaker 1>narrative for you. I think the hardest barrier to overcome

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<v Speaker 1>was my own feeling of that, you know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>relevant anymore. Who would care what I have to say?

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<v Speaker 1>Why am I being selfish by saying something that could

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<v Speaker 1>upset my family and my friends. It didn't upset my friends,

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<v Speaker 1>but that could upset my family. Who am I to

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<v Speaker 1>make that change? And at the same time, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was at the center of my family. I was

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<v Speaker 1>looking after my kid, I was looking after my then husband.

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<v Speaker 1>It did actually matter a lot. But as women, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we're taught to efface ourselves, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And also that our sexuality or our own priorities and needs,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's frivolous and silly. You know, by now we've

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<v Speaker 2>got all these serious things to deal with. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>for young people, you know, like some kind of internalized

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<v Speaker 2>idea that, as you say, it's selfish and greedy almost

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<v Speaker 2>to be and now you want that too, you want

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<v Speaker 2>to live an authentic life as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And on top of that, there are stereotypes about bisexuals

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<v Speaker 1>and bisexuality. That's one of the stereotypes that bisexuals are greedy,

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<v Speaker 1>they want everything, they want everybody, and that they like

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<v Speaker 1>to sleep around because you have to switch from one

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<v Speaker 1>gender to another or whatever, which is not necessarily true.

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<v Speaker 1>As all stereotypes, it's not true at all. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>at the time, I was married to a man and

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<v Speaker 1>I had no interest in sleeping around or doing anything

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<v Speaker 1>like that.

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<v Speaker 2>You say that it's very important to you that it's

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<v Speaker 2>clear that it wasn't because of your set. Your divorce

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<v Speaker 2>was not because of your sexuality. Can you tell me

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<v Speaker 2>a bit more about that and about the misconceptions that

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<v Speaker 2>people maybe have around that situation.

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<v Speaker 1>A marriage is a very very complicated thing, and a

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<v Speaker 1>long term marriage is a very complicated thing. There's so

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<v Speaker 1>many aspects to it. To reduce the breakup of a

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<v Speaker 1>marriage to one thing is way over simplification. And in

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<v Speaker 1>my case, I was happily bisexual married to a man.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd never dated a woman, and so I did think

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<v Speaker 1>about that, but that wasn't any different than my fancying

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<v Speaker 1>someone on the street thinking about that. Everybody has fantasies

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<v Speaker 1>and wonders and desires. That's part of being human. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't have to act on them, and that's part of

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<v Speaker 1>being married. And nothing changed about that at all. When

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<v Speaker 1>I came out. It was exactly the same. So I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to feed into those stereotypes of bisexual people

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<v Speaker 1>being rapacious or greedy or promiscuous, because that's not what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened was our marriage came to a natural end,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I started dating women.

0:13:09.407 --> 0:13:12.487
<v Speaker 2>In this essay, you also write about this that young

0:13:12.527 --> 0:13:15.567
<v Speaker 2>people are often told their sexuality is a phase, and

0:13:15.807 --> 0:13:18.607
<v Speaker 2>I when told that mine was a midlife crisis. So

0:13:19.407 --> 0:13:23.687
<v Speaker 2>when because there's a difference between the conversation you're having

0:13:23.727 --> 0:13:26.287
<v Speaker 2>with your husband and with your very close circle, but

0:13:26.367 --> 0:13:28.927
<v Speaker 2>then there's a difference of them when you're out literally

0:13:28.967 --> 0:13:32.727
<v Speaker 2>out in the world as a newly separated or divorced woman.

0:13:33.647 --> 0:13:36.247
<v Speaker 2>Is that a reaction that people had and why do

0:13:36.287 --> 0:13:38.167
<v Speaker 2>you think? What do you think that's about?

0:13:39.087 --> 0:13:43.007
<v Speaker 1>It was a reaction that some people had, Yes, And

0:13:43.087 --> 0:13:45.167
<v Speaker 1>I do talk about this a lot, because it was

0:13:45.327 --> 0:13:50.087
<v Speaker 1>just an enormous eye opener for me. There was a

0:13:50.087 --> 0:13:55.087
<v Speaker 1>publishing professional who said that I had come out as

0:13:55.167 --> 0:13:56.887
<v Speaker 1>queer for the career boost.

0:13:56.967 --> 0:14:01.007
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, no, and I so likely to kind

0:14:01.047 --> 0:14:03.047
<v Speaker 2>of keep yourself relevant or something.

0:14:03.127 --> 0:14:04.207
<v Speaker 3>Is that what they were thinking?

0:14:05.167 --> 0:14:08.367
<v Speaker 1>Right, all the young people are doing it, that must

0:14:08.407 --> 0:14:13.407
<v Speaker 1>be why. Oh my gosh, So it's and I celebrate

0:14:13.487 --> 0:14:16.967
<v Speaker 1>that day every year that person.

0:14:18.007 --> 0:14:19.887
<v Speaker 3>What do you mean you celebrated every day?

0:14:20.727 --> 0:14:23.287
<v Speaker 1>Celebrate it by posting a picture of myself, you know,

0:14:23.567 --> 0:14:25.727
<v Speaker 1>snogging the person I happen to be dating at the

0:14:25.767 --> 0:14:29.487
<v Speaker 1>time or whatever. Because I'm petty like that.

0:14:30.207 --> 0:14:30.967
<v Speaker 3>I like that.

0:14:31.287 --> 0:14:35.287
<v Speaker 2>You're like, oh god, I mean, obviously we can't expose

0:14:35.327 --> 0:14:37.367
<v Speaker 2>that person too much. But did you did that person

0:14:37.407 --> 0:14:38.847
<v Speaker 2>stay in your life professionally?

0:14:39.567 --> 0:14:40.047
<v Speaker 1>No? No?

0:14:40.327 --> 0:14:43.807
<v Speaker 3>You were like, no, no, no.

0:14:44.207 --> 0:14:47.047
<v Speaker 1>I mean. Also, it's so funny because I talk to

0:14:47.087 --> 0:14:50.407
<v Speaker 1>my queer author friends and I say that, and they're

0:14:50.487 --> 0:14:53.407
<v Speaker 1>gassed at two things. One is like, hold on that

0:14:53.447 --> 0:14:58.287
<v Speaker 1>as homophobic as hell and ages as hell. But also,

0:14:58.767 --> 0:15:01.567
<v Speaker 1>how does someone in the industry not know that being

0:15:01.647 --> 0:15:05.687
<v Speaker 1>queer is not a career boost? Rely is not.

0:15:06.247 --> 0:15:08.967
<v Speaker 2>It's a very ignorant thing. To say on in Many

0:15:09.047 --> 0:15:14.207
<v Speaker 2>Day twice. As you've made very clear, the story isn't linear,

0:15:14.247 --> 0:15:17.327
<v Speaker 2>and that your marriage ended because of your bisexuality, but

0:15:17.367 --> 0:15:21.527
<v Speaker 2>once your relationship was over, and without wanting to step

0:15:21.527 --> 0:15:25.687
<v Speaker 2>on any other people's stories here, mothers are always really

0:15:25.727 --> 0:15:28.367
<v Speaker 2>worried whatever when they go through a relationship breakdown, no

0:15:28.407 --> 0:15:31.247
<v Speaker 2>matter what, that they're ruining their children's lives, and that's

0:15:31.247 --> 0:15:33.207
<v Speaker 2>often part of the thing that plays into the sort

0:15:33.207 --> 0:15:37.367
<v Speaker 2>of shame of you know, we being greedy again, whatever

0:15:37.407 --> 0:15:40.767
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances are, to want to be happier, want to

0:15:40.767 --> 0:15:44.207
<v Speaker 2>be more authentic, want to be freer. Did you do

0:15:44.287 --> 0:15:47.927
<v Speaker 2>a lot of research and rehearsing and all those things

0:15:47.967 --> 0:15:52.807
<v Speaker 2>before you told your child about your situation and what

0:15:52.967 --> 0:15:53.487
<v Speaker 2>was going on.

0:15:54.727 --> 0:15:59.607
<v Speaker 1>I came out to my teenager before, well before the

0:15:59.647 --> 0:16:02.447
<v Speaker 1>marriage broke up. I came out when that I published

0:16:02.487 --> 0:16:06.247
<v Speaker 1>that essay, in fact, because I know that they have Google,

0:16:07.167 --> 0:16:10.407
<v Speaker 1>and I know that their friends have Google. So I

0:16:10.527 --> 0:16:15.727
<v Speaker 1>thought it was best to just talk with them straightforwardly

0:16:15.727 --> 0:16:19.167
<v Speaker 1>about that. And that was absolutely fine, not a worry

0:16:19.207 --> 0:16:23.007
<v Speaker 1>at all. My child is very accepting and has lots

0:16:23.047 --> 0:16:27.047
<v Speaker 1>of queer friends and is in the community themselves, and

0:16:27.367 --> 0:16:31.607
<v Speaker 1>it's not a problem. The divorce was something else, because

0:16:32.127 --> 0:16:36.207
<v Speaker 1>I have a complicated divorce story in that we decided

0:16:36.207 --> 0:16:39.327
<v Speaker 1>to split up in January twenty twenty, and then we

0:16:39.407 --> 0:16:42.607
<v Speaker 1>decided to take it very slowly and let our child

0:16:42.807 --> 0:16:47.207
<v Speaker 1>know when we had all the living arrangements in place.

0:16:47.727 --> 0:16:51.447
<v Speaker 1>But then lockdown happened and we were ended up in

0:16:51.727 --> 0:16:58.007
<v Speaker 1>a house together, living together for another year, so divorced

0:16:58.007 --> 0:17:01.887
<v Speaker 1>at the time. We actually got divorced in October twenty twenty,

0:17:01.927 --> 0:17:03.727
<v Speaker 1>but we were still living in the same house at

0:17:03.727 --> 0:17:06.527
<v Speaker 1>the time because there was the restrictions were such that

0:17:06.567 --> 0:17:08.967
<v Speaker 1>we had to be and that was a very difficult

0:17:09.047 --> 0:17:12.287
<v Speaker 1>year in a lot of ways. But I'm also grateful

0:17:12.327 --> 0:17:15.527
<v Speaker 1>for that year because it meant because we're stuck in

0:17:15.527 --> 0:17:18.167
<v Speaker 1>the same house together literally not able to leave, at

0:17:18.167 --> 0:17:24.527
<v Speaker 1>some points, we developed much better communication skills and we

0:17:24.767 --> 0:17:30.807
<v Speaker 1>developed a friendship and mutual respectful relationship. That meant that

0:17:30.887 --> 0:17:34.967
<v Speaker 1>the breakup of our marriage was pretty smooth in a

0:17:34.967 --> 0:17:38.687
<v Speaker 1>lot of ways. It laid a good foundation for it,

0:17:38.767 --> 0:17:41.807
<v Speaker 1>and our child knew that we were splitting up after

0:17:41.847 --> 0:17:43.887
<v Speaker 1>a while. After the lockdown went on for a while,

0:17:44.127 --> 0:17:46.127
<v Speaker 1>they sort of noticed that I had been sleeping on

0:17:46.167 --> 0:17:50.927
<v Speaker 1>the sofa for a whole while. I didn't do a

0:17:50.927 --> 0:17:54.127
<v Speaker 1>lot of research about it. We just did what felt

0:17:54.287 --> 0:17:57.047
<v Speaker 1>right at the time. It was a difficult time, so

0:17:57.327 --> 0:17:59.647
<v Speaker 1>I say it had a silver lining, but it was

0:18:00.127 --> 0:18:04.327
<v Speaker 1>very hard because I had all these big feelings that

0:18:04.367 --> 0:18:07.647
<v Speaker 1>I could not let out at all because I was

0:18:08.167 --> 0:18:10.927
<v Speaker 1>with the person I was divorcing, and I was with

0:18:10.967 --> 0:18:14.007
<v Speaker 1>my child who I didn't want to see them because

0:18:14.047 --> 0:18:16.287
<v Speaker 1>they were mine and I didn't want my child to

0:18:16.327 --> 0:18:21.047
<v Speaker 1>have to carry that. There were foteen at the time

0:18:22.527 --> 0:18:29.687
<v Speaker 1>fifteen fourteen fifteen, So yeah, it made things intentional. It

0:18:29.727 --> 0:18:32.767
<v Speaker 1>made things difficult, but intentional. So I'm grateful for that.

0:18:34.167 --> 0:18:36.687
<v Speaker 3>What did you do with your big feelings in lockdown?

0:18:36.727 --> 0:18:37.567
<v Speaker 3>In that situation?

0:18:39.967 --> 0:18:44.767
<v Speaker 1>I wrote a book that was unpublishable, right, and I

0:18:44.847 --> 0:18:49.727
<v Speaker 1>walked the dog a lot. Yes, and my female friends

0:18:49.967 --> 0:18:54.607
<v Speaker 1>were there for me one hundred percent. I owe them everything.

0:18:54.607 --> 0:18:55.367
<v Speaker 3>Thank God for that.

0:18:56.607 --> 0:19:00.167
<v Speaker 2>It's a very difficult circumstance in which to be divorcing though,

0:19:00.207 --> 0:19:03.567
<v Speaker 2>and maybe sort of trying out your training wheels as

0:19:03.607 --> 0:19:08.047
<v Speaker 2>a newly single person. Yeah, yes, when, when and how

0:19:08.047 --> 0:19:10.727
<v Speaker 2>did dating happen in that situation?

0:19:12.567 --> 0:19:15.887
<v Speaker 1>I had a couple of dates after we'd split up,

0:19:15.887 --> 0:19:18.927
<v Speaker 1>but before he had moved out, they obviously had to

0:19:18.967 --> 0:19:21.967
<v Speaker 1>be out of the house, so dog walks and things

0:19:22.007 --> 0:19:26.247
<v Speaker 1>like that. And the apps are a wonderful thing because

0:19:26.287 --> 0:19:30.007
<v Speaker 1>you can test out flirting with people and you know,

0:19:30.207 --> 0:19:31.847
<v Speaker 1>it's a whole new It was a whole new world

0:19:31.847 --> 0:19:34.767
<v Speaker 1>for me dating women as well. I mean dating anyway

0:19:35.247 --> 0:19:38.007
<v Speaker 1>in your fifties is like what, Yeah, after you've been

0:19:38.087 --> 0:19:40.847
<v Speaker 1>married for so long, it's a complete landmine.

0:19:41.407 --> 0:19:45.367
<v Speaker 2>And was it scary or thrilling to learn? I mean,

0:19:45.407 --> 0:19:47.367
<v Speaker 2>these are two new things you're learning, I guess, but

0:19:47.407 --> 0:19:50.687
<v Speaker 2>after being married for a really long time flirting again,

0:19:51.087 --> 0:19:52.887
<v Speaker 2>like and like what was it like?

0:19:54.367 --> 0:19:58.727
<v Speaker 1>And then there's the whole thing about when you're flirting

0:19:58.767 --> 0:20:03.207
<v Speaker 1>with another woman. Because I flirt with my friends constantly.

0:20:03.367 --> 0:20:08.247
<v Speaker 1>I'm just to flirt, and so then I would I

0:20:08.327 --> 0:20:11.087
<v Speaker 1>tend to flirt with people when I newly meet them.

0:20:11.247 --> 0:20:14.087
<v Speaker 1>So then trying to parse that out about how much

0:20:14.127 --> 0:20:16.607
<v Speaker 1>am I flirting because I'm attracted and how much am

0:20:16.607 --> 0:20:20.727
<v Speaker 1>I flirting because that's just my normal way of relating

0:20:20.727 --> 0:20:24.127
<v Speaker 1>to somebody. It's I read something somewhere that is when

0:20:24.167 --> 0:20:26.647
<v Speaker 1>you come out, you go back to being a teenager.

0:20:27.607 --> 0:20:32.047
<v Speaker 1>So you have to relearn the world in a way

0:20:32.087 --> 0:20:34.847
<v Speaker 1>that you did when you were fifteen sixteen, but in

0:20:34.887 --> 0:20:39.847
<v Speaker 1>it you know completely differently. So it's weird being, you know,

0:20:39.927 --> 0:20:42.567
<v Speaker 1>in your fifties and being a teenager at the same.

0:20:42.527 --> 0:20:45.607
<v Speaker 2>Salutely, once you knew the marriage was over and you

0:20:45.647 --> 0:20:47.487
<v Speaker 2>were going to start dating again, you knew that this

0:20:47.727 --> 0:20:49.927
<v Speaker 2>was you were going to date women. Was it Did

0:20:49.967 --> 0:20:54.367
<v Speaker 2>it feel like I get to be me now? Was

0:20:54.407 --> 0:20:57.207
<v Speaker 2>it exciting and thrilling or was it scary?

0:20:58.007 --> 0:21:05.927
<v Speaker 1>Both both. I think we have a we have an

0:21:05.927 --> 0:21:12.727
<v Speaker 1>illusion that people stay the same throughout their life, and

0:21:13.727 --> 0:21:18.967
<v Speaker 1>I think that in contrary to that, I think that

0:21:19.887 --> 0:21:24.047
<v Speaker 1>people have many different selves to them depending on the

0:21:24.087 --> 0:21:27.047
<v Speaker 1>situations that they're in, depending on what they find important

0:21:27.087 --> 0:21:30.567
<v Speaker 1>at the time. I think you can be slightly different

0:21:30.567 --> 0:21:33.967
<v Speaker 1>with different people. So trying to work out who you

0:21:34.007 --> 0:21:37.927
<v Speaker 1>are through dating is not really a good idea because

0:21:37.967 --> 0:21:43.767
<v Speaker 1>then the dating affects yourself. I have been trying to

0:21:43.807 --> 0:21:48.327
<v Speaker 1>be very mindful about being myself and who I am

0:21:48.647 --> 0:21:51.087
<v Speaker 1>rather than responding to the needs of others in a

0:21:51.167 --> 0:21:54.727
<v Speaker 1>romantic situation. I feel that I did that for many

0:21:54.807 --> 0:21:56.647
<v Speaker 1>years in my marriage, and I was trying to work

0:21:56.687 --> 0:21:59.567
<v Speaker 1>out who I was myself and who I was now,

0:21:59.727 --> 0:22:02.207
<v Speaker 1>not who I was before I got married or who

0:22:02.207 --> 0:22:04.287
<v Speaker 1>I was during my marriage, but who I am now.

0:22:04.727 --> 0:22:08.047
<v Speaker 1>And so I've dated and then taken time off dating,

0:22:08.167 --> 0:22:11.287
<v Speaker 1>and then going back to dating, and because I want

0:22:11.327 --> 0:22:13.887
<v Speaker 1>to always walk into it with a strong sense of

0:22:13.967 --> 0:22:18.607
<v Speaker 1>self and not feeling that dating women is going to

0:22:18.647 --> 0:22:23.127
<v Speaker 1>fulfill a wonderful part of me that was never fulfilled before.

0:22:23.287 --> 0:22:27.367
<v Speaker 1>That's not the way it works, not for me anyway.

0:22:27.727 --> 0:22:31.287
<v Speaker 1>I need to be comfortable and happy within my own skin,

0:22:32.127 --> 0:22:35.167
<v Speaker 1>and that is regardless of who I'm dating and what

0:22:35.327 --> 0:22:38.807
<v Speaker 1>gender they are. So I did discover a lot about

0:22:38.807 --> 0:22:42.887
<v Speaker 1>myself through making mistakes and through meeting people that I

0:22:43.047 --> 0:22:47.007
<v Speaker 1>didn't really deal with. I learned a lot about women

0:22:47.447 --> 0:22:49.727
<v Speaker 1>dating women and how different that is.

0:22:50.047 --> 0:22:53.847
<v Speaker 2>What's what was some of those early lessons. What's what

0:22:54.007 --> 0:22:54.607
<v Speaker 2>is different?

0:22:58.047 --> 0:23:03.767
<v Speaker 1>It's different. The thing that leaps to mind, Holly, is

0:23:04.327 --> 0:23:10.367
<v Speaker 1>when I had my ad a first uh overnight date

0:23:10.447 --> 0:23:17.567
<v Speaker 1>with someone who just brought her sex toys. It's like, wow, lesbians,

0:23:17.567 --> 0:23:24.807
<v Speaker 1>they're so evolved. Yeah, that was great. I enjoyed that.

0:23:26.327 --> 0:23:28.607
<v Speaker 1>And that's not to say that has happened every time,

0:23:28.687 --> 0:23:31.447
<v Speaker 1>but that was a real shock for me, but some

0:23:31.527 --> 0:23:35.407
<v Speaker 1>of the other lessons I think because I haven't dated

0:23:35.567 --> 0:23:39.047
<v Speaker 1>men in a very long time, I'm I contrast it

0:23:39.087 --> 0:23:42.367
<v Speaker 1>with my friends who got divorced about the same time

0:23:42.407 --> 0:23:44.847
<v Speaker 1>and who were dating men while I was dating women,

0:23:45.247 --> 0:23:50.607
<v Speaker 1>and that experience seemed to be quite different for us.

0:23:51.487 --> 0:23:54.527
<v Speaker 1>There seemed to be fewer women who were on there

0:23:54.607 --> 0:23:56.807
<v Speaker 1>just to waste your time or just to have a

0:23:56.807 --> 0:23:59.287
<v Speaker 1>hookup or just to see what was going on, and

0:23:59.567 --> 0:24:02.807
<v Speaker 1>maybe more women who are that's it's a cliche to

0:24:02.847 --> 0:24:05.167
<v Speaker 1>say that women want to jump right into a relationship,

0:24:05.207 --> 0:24:07.847
<v Speaker 1>but I did feel fine that the women who I

0:24:07.887 --> 0:24:09.727
<v Speaker 1>was dating, and maybe that was because as I was

0:24:09.807 --> 0:24:14.927
<v Speaker 1>choosing them intentionally, were very clear about what they wanted

0:24:14.927 --> 0:24:17.887
<v Speaker 1>in their life. Absolutely because which I found very refreshing.

0:24:18.327 --> 0:24:22.967
<v Speaker 2>It's a common experience for women who are dating after

0:24:23.007 --> 0:24:25.127
<v Speaker 2>divorce in the straight world.

0:24:25.247 --> 0:24:26.407
<v Speaker 3>I guess to.

0:24:28.087 --> 0:24:30.687
<v Speaker 2>Suddenly, and I don't know, maybe this is the same,

0:24:30.727 --> 0:24:33.247
<v Speaker 2>but there's a world of opportunity suddenly opens up on

0:24:33.287 --> 0:24:36.167
<v Speaker 2>the apps, and it can be very good for your

0:24:36.247 --> 0:24:39.647
<v Speaker 2>self esteem in a way, and then it can also

0:24:39.687 --> 0:24:43.127
<v Speaker 2>be devastating if you're rejected, even by people who you

0:24:43.167 --> 0:24:45.687
<v Speaker 2>were perfectly prepared to reject yourself.

0:24:46.847 --> 0:24:49.567
<v Speaker 1>It feels so raw because you know.

0:24:49.647 --> 0:24:51.367
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that's so different about being in

0:24:51.567 --> 0:24:53.567
<v Speaker 2>a long term relationship, even if it wasn't a very

0:24:53.607 --> 0:24:57.447
<v Speaker 2>happy one necessarily, not that I'm suggesting yours wasn't, is

0:24:57.647 --> 0:25:00.087
<v Speaker 2>there was a certainty to it, is.

0:25:00.047 --> 0:25:01.287
<v Speaker 3>That a similar experience.

0:25:01.447 --> 0:25:03.447
<v Speaker 2>Was it a bit of an emotional roller coaster in

0:25:03.567 --> 0:25:05.567
<v Speaker 2>terms of am I going to feel desired?

0:25:05.607 --> 0:25:09.487
<v Speaker 3>Am I going to fall for everybody? All of those

0:25:09.567 --> 0:25:10.327
<v Speaker 3>kind of things.

0:25:10.687 --> 0:25:14.047
<v Speaker 1>Well, you feel differently about your body in your fifties

0:25:14.487 --> 0:25:18.807
<v Speaker 1>than you did in your twenties, that's for sure. I am.

0:25:19.327 --> 0:25:21.887
<v Speaker 1>I love my body, and I'm really happy that it's

0:25:21.927 --> 0:25:26.087
<v Speaker 1>still healthy and it's still you know, looking pretty good,

0:25:26.527 --> 0:25:28.327
<v Speaker 1>and that I can still wear what I want to

0:25:28.527 --> 0:25:30.007
<v Speaker 1>and I can do what I want to do. I'm

0:25:30.087 --> 0:25:32.327
<v Speaker 1>very grateful for it. But it's really not the body

0:25:32.367 --> 0:25:35.607
<v Speaker 1>I had in my twenties, you know, it's very different.

0:25:35.647 --> 0:25:37.887
<v Speaker 2>Well, it would be strange, if it were to be honest,

0:25:37.927 --> 0:25:38.767
<v Speaker 2>It would be strange.

0:25:39.487 --> 0:25:43.127
<v Speaker 1>You know, I've got the cesarean scar and the stretch

0:25:43.167 --> 0:25:45.847
<v Speaker 1>marks and the cellulate and all of these things, and

0:25:46.967 --> 0:25:51.527
<v Speaker 1>I did worry about that. I think another sort of

0:25:51.567 --> 0:25:58.607
<v Speaker 1>strange bit of internalized misogyny is that we want our

0:25:58.607 --> 0:26:01.007
<v Speaker 1>bodies to look good for men, but we really want

0:26:01.047 --> 0:26:04.207
<v Speaker 1>our bodies to look good for other women. I think

0:26:05.047 --> 0:26:09.487
<v Speaker 1>as women, we are taught to be almost competitive or

0:26:09.727 --> 0:26:14.487
<v Speaker 1>to outshine, to be you know, perfect in front of

0:26:14.527 --> 0:26:16.807
<v Speaker 1>other women. And I really had to let that go,

0:26:16.967 --> 0:26:21.687
<v Speaker 1>you know, and think these I'm not dating someone to

0:26:22.047 --> 0:26:24.967
<v Speaker 1>impress them or to have the perfect body, and I'm not.

0:26:25.327 --> 0:26:27.207
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why I expected that of myself, because

0:26:27.207 --> 0:26:29.887
<v Speaker 1>I don't expect that of the people I'm dating. I

0:26:29.967 --> 0:26:33.127
<v Speaker 1>love the signs of age on a woman's body. I

0:26:33.127 --> 0:26:36.647
<v Speaker 1>think it's wonderful. So I don't know why I would

0:26:36.727 --> 0:26:40.407
<v Speaker 1>have trouble accepting that about myself. But I it's a journey,

0:26:41.327 --> 0:26:42.687
<v Speaker 1>Yes it is.

0:26:42.807 --> 0:26:43.647
<v Speaker 3>And that's so true.

0:26:43.687 --> 0:26:47.847
<v Speaker 2>That is that's absolutely things that you wouldn't even think

0:26:47.847 --> 0:26:49.767
<v Speaker 2>about on somebody else's body for yourself.

0:26:49.807 --> 0:26:51.887
<v Speaker 3>You're like, why am I so this? Why am I

0:26:51.967 --> 0:26:52.367
<v Speaker 3>so that?

0:26:53.287 --> 0:26:56.527
<v Speaker 2>Without wanting to get too personal about this, were those

0:26:56.607 --> 0:27:01.647
<v Speaker 2>first experiences? Was it how you had imagined? You were

0:27:01.687 --> 0:27:03.327
<v Speaker 2>saying that, you know, when you grew up in a

0:27:03.327 --> 0:27:06.487
<v Speaker 2>small town in the seventies and eighties, even though you

0:27:06.927 --> 0:27:10.407
<v Speaker 2>know that you were an are sexual there wasn't really

0:27:10.407 --> 0:27:12.967
<v Speaker 2>a framework for that. I imagine you had a lot

0:27:13.007 --> 0:27:17.727
<v Speaker 2>of years and you're writing and was it how you imagined?

0:27:17.807 --> 0:27:20.007
<v Speaker 3>Did it live up to expectations? That's what I'm trying

0:27:20.007 --> 0:27:24.407
<v Speaker 3>to get at here. I'm so English.

0:27:24.047 --> 0:27:28.367
<v Speaker 1>I like, you know, you know what completely exceeded my

0:27:28.407 --> 0:27:31.527
<v Speaker 1>expectations And I'm going to go there right away is boobs.

0:27:31.567 --> 0:27:33.967
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, God, Holly, boobs are great.

0:27:35.087 --> 0:27:37.607
<v Speaker 3>Oh tell me, I just suddenly.

0:27:37.407 --> 0:27:41.287
<v Speaker 1>Understood why what was going through every man's mind? I mean,

0:27:41.327 --> 0:27:44.287
<v Speaker 1>boobs are just awesome. They are just the best. So, yes,

0:27:44.367 --> 0:27:48.127
<v Speaker 1>that the fact that boobs exceeded my expectations.

0:27:52.567 --> 0:27:54.767
<v Speaker 2>We'll be back in a moment with more from Julie Cohen,

0:27:54.847 --> 0:28:02.407
<v Speaker 2>but first a little break. Please tell me if this

0:28:02.487 --> 0:28:05.327
<v Speaker 2>question is inappropriate. But given that you wrote in the

0:28:05.407 --> 0:28:07.687
<v Speaker 2>essay about growing up in a time and a place

0:28:08.167 --> 0:28:11.887
<v Speaker 2>where there wasn't a framework for bisexuality beyond David Bowie,

0:28:12.927 --> 0:28:15.727
<v Speaker 2>do you think if you were growing up somewhere different

0:28:15.727 --> 0:28:17.687
<v Speaker 2>and now your life would have been very different? And

0:28:17.727 --> 0:28:18.767
<v Speaker 2>do you think about that?

0:28:20.607 --> 0:28:23.007
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think if I had grown up in a

0:28:23.047 --> 0:28:27.487
<v Speaker 1>city it would have been different. But it was the eighties.

0:28:28.887 --> 0:28:32.207
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I think it might have been different. I can't.

0:28:32.247 --> 0:28:34.207
<v Speaker 1>I love my upbringing. I grew up in the most

0:28:34.287 --> 0:28:38.247
<v Speaker 1>amazing place with the most amazing people, and I love it.

0:28:38.287 --> 0:28:39.847
<v Speaker 1>I grew up in a small town in Maine. It

0:28:39.927 --> 0:28:43.687
<v Speaker 1>is fantastic. I wish that I had grown up someplace

0:28:44.327 --> 0:28:50.007
<v Speaker 1>broader minded, with more diversity and more queer role models.

0:28:50.447 --> 0:28:53.567
<v Speaker 1>I did not have to suffer what my gay male

0:28:53.687 --> 0:28:57.687
<v Speaker 1>friends had to suffer, which was pretty horrendous bullying. That

0:28:57.847 --> 0:29:02.167
<v Speaker 1>was a privilege of being a straight passing woman. And

0:29:02.407 --> 0:29:05.967
<v Speaker 1>I am not surprised that I didn't know anybody any

0:29:06.047 --> 0:29:09.967
<v Speaker 1>lesbians of my own age, because their lives would have

0:29:10.127 --> 0:29:16.207
<v Speaker 1>been hell. So the homophobic bullying was awful, and I

0:29:16.247 --> 0:29:19.767
<v Speaker 1>believe it's got better there when I've been there in

0:29:19.807 --> 0:29:24.247
<v Speaker 1>the past. More people seem to be joyously out. It's

0:29:24.287 --> 0:29:27.567
<v Speaker 1>really nice to see things have changed. The twenty first

0:29:27.567 --> 0:29:29.927
<v Speaker 1>century has caught up with Rumford mean.

0:29:31.527 --> 0:29:34.487
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the things about being older, I often think,

0:29:34.687 --> 0:29:38.327
<v Speaker 2>when is that you do literally have this body of

0:29:39.007 --> 0:29:45.207
<v Speaker 2>hindsight and seeing your and sometimes you do think, I

0:29:45.247 --> 0:29:47.407
<v Speaker 2>don't know what's trying to get at. When you look

0:29:47.447 --> 0:29:50.447
<v Speaker 2>back and you think, well, that is what happened, it

0:29:50.487 --> 0:29:52.127
<v Speaker 2>could have been like that. It could have been like this,

0:29:52.247 --> 0:29:54.247
<v Speaker 2>and there are things you grieve and things that you're

0:29:54.807 --> 0:29:55.927
<v Speaker 2>happy you went through.

0:29:56.807 --> 0:29:58.927
<v Speaker 3>Do you grieve not.

0:29:58.847 --> 0:30:02.367
<v Speaker 2>Having had twenties your twenties or whatever as an out

0:30:02.407 --> 0:30:05.487
<v Speaker 2>bisexual woman, or do you think that you got the

0:30:05.567 --> 0:30:06.447
<v Speaker 2>joys you needed.

0:30:06.767 --> 0:30:09.927
<v Speaker 1>I think that would have been super fun, really would

0:30:09.927 --> 0:30:15.807
<v Speaker 1>have been fun. So I don't grieve it, but I

0:30:15.807 --> 0:30:16.847
<v Speaker 1>would have enjoyed it.

0:30:18.527 --> 0:30:21.527
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I wanted to ask you. So the essay that

0:30:21.567 --> 0:30:24.327
<v Speaker 2>we started this with, it's five years old. A lot

0:30:24.367 --> 0:30:26.607
<v Speaker 2>of things have changed in your life since then, I'm sure.

0:30:27.527 --> 0:30:30.527
<v Speaker 2>Tell me what your life looks like now compared to them.

0:30:31.207 --> 0:30:32.847
<v Speaker 1>Well, then I was married to a man.

0:30:33.407 --> 0:30:35.967
<v Speaker 3>And you are still living, still living.

0:30:35.767 --> 0:30:38.807
<v Speaker 1>In the same house, and now we're divorced. He lives

0:30:39.407 --> 0:30:43.047
<v Speaker 1>a couple miles from here and we're friends. I've had

0:30:43.047 --> 0:30:45.807
<v Speaker 1>a relationship with a woman which has now ended, and

0:30:45.887 --> 0:30:50.287
<v Speaker 1>now I am dating, and that's all in very early stages.

0:30:51.247 --> 0:30:54.687
<v Speaker 1>But I'm really working on myself and who I am

0:30:54.727 --> 0:30:58.007
<v Speaker 1>and what I want. Around the time I wrote that essay,

0:30:59.087 --> 0:31:01.847
<v Speaker 1>I belonged to the Romantic Novelist Association in the UK,

0:31:02.087 --> 0:31:05.607
<v Speaker 1>which is for people who write relationship fiction, and I

0:31:05.647 --> 0:31:10.127
<v Speaker 1>started the Rainbow Chapter, which was for queer writers writing

0:31:10.207 --> 0:31:12.887
<v Speaker 1>queer love stories. So I started that about that time,

0:31:13.527 --> 0:31:15.927
<v Speaker 1>and so I got to meet a lot of queer writers,

0:31:16.487 --> 0:31:21.087
<v Speaker 1>which was fabulous. Through that, for a few years, we

0:31:21.167 --> 0:31:24.927
<v Speaker 1>marched in Pride in London as a group of romance writers,

0:31:25.007 --> 0:31:29.047
<v Speaker 1>which was just fantastic. I've met some great people. I've

0:31:29.247 --> 0:31:35.847
<v Speaker 1>taken part in queer literary festivals, which is always joyous

0:31:35.887 --> 0:31:41.487
<v Speaker 1>and relaxing. It's one thing I didn't understand before I

0:31:41.567 --> 0:31:43.847
<v Speaker 1>came out and before I really was able to join

0:31:43.927 --> 0:31:48.007
<v Speaker 1>the community, is how wonderful it is to be with

0:31:48.047 --> 0:31:53.527
<v Speaker 1>a group of people where you don't have to you

0:31:53.567 --> 0:31:59.287
<v Speaker 1>don't have to explain yourself, and that is just wonderful.

0:32:01.287 --> 0:32:04.967
<v Speaker 1>And I love the queer community that I have formed

0:32:05.007 --> 0:32:07.967
<v Speaker 1>for myself and that I've found within writing circles.

0:32:08.727 --> 0:32:11.447
<v Speaker 3>So wonderful group of friends. Family.

0:32:11.927 --> 0:32:19.447
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, writers who understand how difficult it can be

0:32:19.487 --> 0:32:23.527
<v Speaker 1>as a queer writer in this profession, how much you

0:32:23.607 --> 0:32:26.447
<v Speaker 1>have to fight sometimes to make your voice heard and

0:32:26.567 --> 0:32:29.087
<v Speaker 1>to get your books in the hands of the correct people.

0:32:30.247 --> 0:32:32.647
<v Speaker 2>So we should let the listeners know, because we talked

0:32:32.647 --> 0:32:35.607
<v Speaker 2>about this off Mike earlier on is that you are

0:32:35.847 --> 0:32:40.407
<v Speaker 2>a very professional novelist who writes romance fiction, as you've said,

0:32:40.727 --> 0:32:42.967
<v Speaker 2>and what you describe as queer feminist thrillers.

0:32:42.967 --> 0:32:44.847
<v Speaker 3>But are they queer feminist thrillersts.

0:32:44.927 --> 0:32:49.247
<v Speaker 1>They're not queer. The relationships within those books so far,

0:32:49.887 --> 0:32:55.247
<v Speaker 1>the main relationships have been heterosexual relationships, but they what

0:32:55.327 --> 0:33:01.287
<v Speaker 1>they are is critiques of heterosexual relationships. Yes, I wouldn't

0:33:01.327 --> 0:33:02.127
<v Speaker 1>say very.

0:33:02.127 --> 0:33:04.127
<v Speaker 2>Much the vibe I get from them. I have not

0:33:04.207 --> 0:33:07.207
<v Speaker 2>read them yet, but having observed them on your social

0:33:07.207 --> 0:33:10.887
<v Speaker 2>media and stuff, that's exactly the vibe I get. I

0:33:10.887 --> 0:33:13.927
<v Speaker 2>guess one of the things I would say is my preconception,

0:33:14.247 --> 0:33:18.047
<v Speaker 2>and please disavow me of this, is that the Romance

0:33:18.087 --> 0:33:21.527
<v Speaker 2>Writers Association might be quite a conservative.

0:33:20.927 --> 0:33:23.287
<v Speaker 3>Body, am I like? Is that right or not?

0:33:23.727 --> 0:33:23.807
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:33:24.247 --> 0:33:26.647
<v Speaker 2>I know, there's quite strict rules about what a romance

0:33:26.727 --> 0:33:27.527
<v Speaker 2>novel is.

0:33:27.447 --> 0:33:30.207
<v Speaker 1>And isn't there used to be, Holly, I don't think

0:33:30.287 --> 0:33:33.727
<v Speaker 1>that that is so true anymore. There is a growing

0:33:33.767 --> 0:33:35.887
<v Speaker 1>body of diverse romance.

0:33:35.687 --> 0:33:38.687
<v Speaker 2>So and as you said, you started a rainbow chapter

0:33:38.767 --> 0:33:40.247
<v Speaker 2>within that relations.

0:33:40.047 --> 0:33:42.287
<v Speaker 1>Right, And when I started that, that was before the

0:33:42.407 --> 0:33:46.127
<v Speaker 1>rise of big books like Red White and Raw Blue

0:33:46.447 --> 0:33:50.687
<v Speaker 1>and Heartstopper and some very popular queer romance that has

0:33:50.727 --> 0:33:54.087
<v Speaker 1>come out in the last seven or eight years, which

0:33:54.087 --> 0:33:56.767
<v Speaker 1>has transformed the market, not as much as I would like,

0:33:57.847 --> 0:34:01.527
<v Speaker 1>but it has opened up the door. So there is

0:34:01.607 --> 0:34:09.847
<v Speaker 1>a body of diverse romance, you know, romance between trans characters, romance, romance,

0:34:10.167 --> 0:34:14.247
<v Speaker 1>romance featuring disabled characters and characters of color, and characters

0:34:14.247 --> 0:34:20.327
<v Speaker 1>of different religions at neurodiversity. There is a growing body

0:34:20.367 --> 0:34:22.447
<v Speaker 1>of that, but sometimes you have to look to be

0:34:22.487 --> 0:34:25.047
<v Speaker 1>able to find it. Some of it is self published,

0:34:25.047 --> 0:34:27.407
<v Speaker 1>some of it is only published. It's not always the

0:34:27.447 --> 0:34:29.527
<v Speaker 1>stuff that we see on our bookshelves, and I would

0:34:29.607 --> 0:34:34.607
<v Speaker 1>very much like that to change. I think that all

0:34:34.767 --> 0:34:37.367
<v Speaker 1>romance readers are all readers should be able to see

0:34:37.607 --> 0:34:41.767
<v Speaker 1>the world as it really is in their books, even

0:34:41.767 --> 0:34:46.447
<v Speaker 1>in their fantasy books that they read for pleasure. Romance

0:34:46.527 --> 0:34:48.607
<v Speaker 1>is not just between a white man and a white woman.

0:34:50.247 --> 0:34:54.287
<v Speaker 1>The tropes and rules of romance and the satisfaction of

0:34:54.327 --> 0:34:57.327
<v Speaker 1>reading about a couple who get together is the same

0:34:57.807 --> 0:34:58.367
<v Speaker 1>no matter what.

0:34:59.327 --> 0:35:03.327
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely so, with the exception of the person in publishing

0:35:03.407 --> 0:35:10.567
<v Speaker 2>who thought that maybe your bisexuality was a career was

0:35:10.607 --> 0:35:14.647
<v Speaker 2>the resistance, Like people, changing is often very confronting for

0:35:14.687 --> 0:35:15.567
<v Speaker 2>the people around you.

0:35:15.807 --> 0:35:17.887
<v Speaker 3>Right, We liked it, you said before.

0:35:17.967 --> 0:35:20.327
<v Speaker 2>We like to have people in boxes and think I

0:35:20.367 --> 0:35:22.327
<v Speaker 2>know who you are, I know what your life is,

0:35:23.167 --> 0:35:25.607
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes it can be very confronting for the people

0:35:25.647 --> 0:35:29.087
<v Speaker 2>around you, professionally or otherwise. Has that been the case

0:35:29.127 --> 0:35:32.007
<v Speaker 2>in these five years or more. Have you sort of

0:35:32.047 --> 0:35:35.607
<v Speaker 2>shared and realigned people in your life or is that

0:35:35.807 --> 0:35:38.847
<v Speaker 2>not something that was such an issue for your people?

0:35:39.407 --> 0:35:43.927
<v Speaker 1>Fortunately, I think the people in my life love me

0:35:44.007 --> 0:35:50.567
<v Speaker 1>for myself and are generally very accepting and wonderful human beings.

0:35:51.367 --> 0:35:55.687
<v Speaker 1>So I think I have added people to my life

0:35:55.767 --> 0:36:00.687
<v Speaker 1>rather than lost anybody, which is great. It's been a

0:36:00.727 --> 0:36:07.327
<v Speaker 1>positive experience. And one group of the people who I've

0:36:07.327 --> 0:36:12.167
<v Speaker 1>added to my life are people who, like me, have

0:36:12.287 --> 0:36:16.567
<v Speaker 1>been married or in seemingly straight relationships, but we'd like

0:36:16.607 --> 0:36:19.847
<v Speaker 1>to come out. And I've talked to quite a few

0:36:19.887 --> 0:36:24.727
<v Speaker 1>people who this is very rewarding for me because I

0:36:24.887 --> 0:36:29.207
<v Speaker 1>was so open about coming out in midlife, wanted to

0:36:29.247 --> 0:36:31.887
<v Speaker 1>talk to me about their situation, saying, you know, I

0:36:31.927 --> 0:36:34.447
<v Speaker 1>feel the same. I'm in a marriage that is happy

0:36:34.527 --> 0:36:38.047
<v Speaker 1>or unhappy, but it appears to be straight from the outside,

0:36:38.047 --> 0:36:41.927
<v Speaker 1>but I am not straight. I really feel that a

0:36:41.967 --> 0:36:45.087
<v Speaker 1>part of me is being suppressed or not expressed, and

0:36:45.767 --> 0:36:47.487
<v Speaker 1>you know, can I talk to you about that? And

0:36:47.567 --> 0:36:50.727
<v Speaker 1>I people who say that they wouldn't have come out

0:36:50.887 --> 0:36:54.367
<v Speaker 1>if they didn't see somebody else do it first. And

0:36:54.407 --> 0:36:56.567
<v Speaker 1>like I said, everybody should come out in their own

0:36:56.607 --> 0:37:00.007
<v Speaker 1>time and space. It should be your decision and nobody else's.

0:37:00.087 --> 0:37:04.127
<v Speaker 1>But for me, the timing was really fantastic because it

0:37:04.367 --> 0:37:08.207
<v Speaker 1>let me connect with these people and give them a voice,

0:37:08.207 --> 0:37:10.927
<v Speaker 1>and not give them voice, let them find their own voices.

0:37:11.407 --> 0:37:13.727
<v Speaker 2>If there are people listening to you talking now who

0:37:13.767 --> 0:37:16.967
<v Speaker 2>are in that situation, what do you say to them?

0:37:17.087 --> 0:37:20.527
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, first, be safe. I think you have

0:37:20.607 --> 0:37:23.327
<v Speaker 1>to do what is safe to do. You have to

0:37:23.367 --> 0:37:25.687
<v Speaker 1>think of that first. If you're in a situation where

0:37:25.687 --> 0:37:28.567
<v Speaker 1>it's not safe to come out, then you have to manipulate,

0:37:28.607 --> 0:37:32.767
<v Speaker 1>you know, find your own way through that. I think

0:37:33.607 --> 0:37:35.487
<v Speaker 1>coming out in your own time and in your own

0:37:35.527 --> 0:37:38.607
<v Speaker 1>space and in your own way is the most important thing.

0:37:38.767 --> 0:37:42.567
<v Speaker 1>And you don't owe it to anybody ever to come out.

0:37:43.007 --> 0:37:50.047
<v Speaker 1>It is your personal truth that you can tell anybody

0:37:50.127 --> 0:37:52.807
<v Speaker 1>you want to or not. And what I didn't know

0:37:52.847 --> 0:37:54.327
<v Speaker 1>at the time is that you don't just come out

0:37:54.367 --> 0:37:56.687
<v Speaker 1>once you come out over and over and over again.

0:37:56.767 --> 0:37:58.007
<v Speaker 1>You know, you come out when you go to the

0:37:58.047 --> 0:38:00.287
<v Speaker 1>doctor and they say, are you on birth control? And

0:38:00.327 --> 0:38:03.367
<v Speaker 1>you say, I don't need it because I'm just leaping

0:38:03.407 --> 0:38:07.767
<v Speaker 1>with women. You know, it's when you know the postman

0:38:07.887 --> 0:38:10.047
<v Speaker 1>comes to your house and starts talking to you about

0:38:10.047 --> 0:38:11.807
<v Speaker 1>your husband and you say, I don't have husband, I

0:38:11.807 --> 0:38:15.207
<v Speaker 1>have a girlfriend. You know, it's having a poster on

0:38:15.287 --> 0:38:19.487
<v Speaker 1>your wall that talks about feminism turning women into lesbians.

0:38:19.887 --> 0:38:22.767
<v Speaker 1>You come out in all times and spaces, and some

0:38:22.847 --> 0:38:25.607
<v Speaker 1>of that feels safe and good and rewarding, and some

0:38:25.687 --> 0:38:30.407
<v Speaker 1>of that feels very scary and frightening, and it adds

0:38:30.447 --> 0:38:34.167
<v Speaker 1>a whole new aspect to your life and your safety

0:38:34.327 --> 0:38:39.207
<v Speaker 1>that you might have never had to think about before,

0:38:39.327 --> 0:38:47.927
<v Speaker 1>because straight privilege is a thing. And as a bisexual woman,

0:38:47.927 --> 0:38:50.447
<v Speaker 1>I'm sort of lucky because I haven't had to deal

0:38:50.487 --> 0:38:54.567
<v Speaker 1>with that fear all of my life. I am very

0:38:54.607 --> 0:38:56.287
<v Speaker 1>lucky that I haven't had to deal with that fear

0:38:56.327 --> 0:38:58.727
<v Speaker 1>for most of my life. But that comes at the

0:38:58.767 --> 0:39:01.487
<v Speaker 1>cost of a racing part of who you are. My

0:39:01.767 --> 0:39:07.007
<v Speaker 1>main message, though, is that you matter. It doesn't matter

0:39:07.407 --> 0:39:11.287
<v Speaker 1>how old you are, it doesn't matter whether you have

0:39:11.407 --> 0:39:17.287
<v Speaker 1>kids or who depends on you. Your own thoughts and feelings matter,

0:39:18.007 --> 0:39:22.847
<v Speaker 1>and they are real, and they might change, they might not.

0:39:23.207 --> 0:39:24.927
<v Speaker 1>This might be a phase, it might be a mid

0:39:24.967 --> 0:39:28.407
<v Speaker 1>life crisis. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't actually matter. Your

0:39:28.447 --> 0:39:31.847
<v Speaker 1>feelings are real and they are true to you, and

0:39:32.647 --> 0:39:36.007
<v Speaker 1>you shouldn't feel that you have to push them down

0:39:37.447 --> 0:39:39.327
<v Speaker 1>to benefit anybody else.

0:39:41.847 --> 0:39:51.847
<v Speaker 2>My conversation with Julie Cohen continues after this break, you

0:39:51.927 --> 0:39:56.807
<v Speaker 2>said about life before coming out, that you may have

0:39:56.847 --> 0:39:58.767
<v Speaker 2>to erase a part of yourself to be able to

0:39:58.807 --> 0:40:03.407
<v Speaker 2>live in this box, this busy mom married to a man,

0:40:03.927 --> 0:40:07.447
<v Speaker 2>doing all the things we're doing. It's kind of trite,

0:40:07.447 --> 0:40:14.167
<v Speaker 2>But do you feel now out fully colored in Ooh?

0:40:14.247 --> 0:40:17.167
<v Speaker 1>Yes? No, Sometimes you have to go back into a box,

0:40:18.167 --> 0:40:22.367
<v Speaker 1>not intentionally, but just because sometimes it's easier, that's what's expected,

0:40:22.567 --> 0:40:24.807
<v Speaker 1>or because it's really not about you right now and

0:40:24.847 --> 0:40:26.127
<v Speaker 1>it has to be about somebody else.

0:40:26.247 --> 0:40:26.447
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:40:27.047 --> 0:40:29.447
<v Speaker 1>We all have various boxes that we go in and

0:40:29.447 --> 0:40:34.007
<v Speaker 1>out of. I hope most of my boxes do reflect

0:40:34.047 --> 0:40:37.967
<v Speaker 1>who I am in some way. But we all know

0:40:38.047 --> 0:40:42.447
<v Speaker 1>the frustration when someone assumes you're something you're not. I

0:40:42.447 --> 0:40:45.607
<v Speaker 1>think that's very familiar to all of us as women,

0:40:45.807 --> 0:40:48.687
<v Speaker 1>and I think that's very familiar to middle aged women,

0:40:49.367 --> 0:40:52.447
<v Speaker 1>particularly in different ways.

0:40:54.367 --> 0:40:57.687
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and a lot of marriages and in midlife for

0:40:57.687 --> 0:41:00.607
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of reasons, in that way where women are

0:41:00.607 --> 0:41:07.407
<v Speaker 2>suddenly like, I can't anymore stomach not living my life.

0:41:08.167 --> 0:41:12.167
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's something that I hear all the time

0:41:12.287 --> 0:41:16.487
<v Speaker 2>from midlife women in all kinds of different ways. And

0:41:16.687 --> 0:41:19.767
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking, you know, some and also not all

0:41:19.807 --> 0:41:22.487
<v Speaker 2>marriages do, and some of them just morph when I

0:41:22.567 --> 0:41:25.007
<v Speaker 2>read which I'm sure you would have read all fours

0:41:25.127 --> 0:41:26.167
<v Speaker 2>Moranda July's book.

0:41:27.367 --> 0:41:28.247
<v Speaker 3>One of the things that.

0:41:28.287 --> 0:41:32.287
<v Speaker 2>I can't stop thinking about from that no spoilers towards

0:41:32.327 --> 0:41:38.687
<v Speaker 2>the end, it's this reimagined marriage as like family, but

0:41:38.847 --> 0:41:44.487
<v Speaker 2>sex and romantic intimacy is kind of separate, almost, And

0:41:44.567 --> 0:41:48.727
<v Speaker 2>I find that really interesting that people are beginning to.

0:41:50.167 --> 0:41:51.407
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure people always have.

0:41:51.327 --> 0:41:54.727
<v Speaker 2>But like people are talking about this idea of picking

0:41:54.767 --> 0:41:57.767
<v Speaker 2>those parts of ourselves apart sometimes or you know, messing

0:41:57.767 --> 0:42:00.607
<v Speaker 2>with that idea that it should be everything. Maybe it's

0:42:00.607 --> 0:42:01.887
<v Speaker 2>a bit of this and a bit of that. And

0:42:01.927 --> 0:42:05.367
<v Speaker 2>long term relationships, as you said earlier, are very complicated.

0:42:06.487 --> 0:42:10.127
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they're not romantic relationships anymore. I'm not sure what

0:42:10.127 --> 0:42:11.847
<v Speaker 2>my question is there, but do well.

0:42:11.847 --> 0:42:14.607
<v Speaker 1>First off, you're the second person to recommend that book

0:42:14.607 --> 0:42:17.327
<v Speaker 1>to me very recently, so I clearly have to read

0:42:17.367 --> 0:42:18.447
<v Speaker 1>it immediately.

0:42:18.767 --> 0:42:20.807
<v Speaker 3>You must rated so wonderful.

0:42:21.207 --> 0:42:26.687
<v Speaker 1>And secondly, I think I think our culture idealizes the

0:42:26.767 --> 0:42:32.607
<v Speaker 1>romantic relationship between two people to be everything, to be

0:42:32.727 --> 0:42:35.687
<v Speaker 1>your entire life and the be all and end all,

0:42:35.727 --> 0:42:40.727
<v Speaker 1>and I think that is very self evidently not true.

0:42:40.847 --> 0:42:46.527
<v Speaker 1>I think that queer people for centuries have found ways

0:42:46.567 --> 0:42:49.327
<v Speaker 1>around that, and have had to find ways around that.

0:42:49.447 --> 0:42:52.967
<v Speaker 1>But that's also part of being queer is finding new relationships,

0:42:53.007 --> 0:42:59.447
<v Speaker 1>new relationships structures, new relationship expectations, new ways to be

0:42:59.767 --> 0:43:03.287
<v Speaker 1>coupled or have a partner or have several partners, to

0:43:03.327 --> 0:43:06.287
<v Speaker 1>be sexually active in the world. And that's one of

0:43:06.327 --> 0:43:11.247
<v Speaker 1>the wonderful parts of being this community is that the

0:43:11.287 --> 0:43:15.647
<v Speaker 1>whole one more man, one woman lifetime together by defaults,

0:43:16.007 --> 0:43:21.047
<v Speaker 1>is not the only option. We have infinite possibilities within

0:43:21.087 --> 0:43:25.247
<v Speaker 1>ourselves that we can explore if we are allowed to.

0:43:27.527 --> 0:43:31.167
<v Speaker 2>I like to ask people how they imagine themselves when

0:43:31.167 --> 0:43:37.127
<v Speaker 2>they're properly old, like really gloriously old woman, What do

0:43:37.167 --> 0:43:40.247
<v Speaker 2>you imagine what life are you living with her.

0:43:40.447 --> 0:43:44.087
<v Speaker 1>I do this a lot. So my best friend and

0:43:44.127 --> 0:43:49.527
<v Speaker 1>I have decided that we are going to buy an well,

0:43:49.607 --> 0:43:51.687
<v Speaker 1>we're going to buy an island. But then we just

0:43:52.007 --> 0:43:54.287
<v Speaker 1>thought maybe an island is not a good idea because

0:43:54.327 --> 0:43:57.367
<v Speaker 1>what if there's a storm. So we're gonna we want

0:43:57.407 --> 0:43:59.967
<v Speaker 1>to buy just this vast tract of land and have

0:44:00.007 --> 0:44:02.287
<v Speaker 1>two houses on it because she's very messy and I'm

0:44:02.407 --> 0:44:05.847
<v Speaker 1>very neat, so we can't live together. And then just

0:44:05.967 --> 0:44:09.727
<v Speaker 1>get a lot of dogs and just have all dogs

0:44:09.807 --> 0:44:12.487
<v Speaker 1>running around and they can go wherever, and we just

0:44:12.527 --> 0:44:15.367
<v Speaker 1>have this communal pack of dogs because we're both crazy

0:44:15.407 --> 0:44:18.567
<v Speaker 1>about them, and we called it Dog Island. And just

0:44:18.647 --> 0:44:21.487
<v Speaker 1>when we get upset with life as it is right now,

0:44:21.487 --> 0:44:24.327
<v Speaker 1>we get frustrated with our kids, with our jobs, with

0:44:24.367 --> 0:44:27.087
<v Speaker 1>our homes, with our lives, we just turn to each

0:44:27.127 --> 0:44:29.047
<v Speaker 1>other and we say, isn't it going to be great

0:44:29.167 --> 0:44:30.167
<v Speaker 1>on Dog Island.

0:44:30.567 --> 0:44:32.767
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's going to be great on Dog Island.

0:44:33.327 --> 0:44:36.127
<v Speaker 1>It's going to be so great on Dog Island. And

0:44:36.767 --> 0:44:39.847
<v Speaker 1>then we'll have, you know, lovers come in as we want.

0:44:39.967 --> 0:44:42.047
<v Speaker 1>If we have a partner, maybe they can live there

0:44:42.087 --> 0:44:43.927
<v Speaker 1>with are in our house, or maybe they'll have a

0:44:44.047 --> 0:44:46.607
<v Speaker 1>separate house because it really depends on whether they make

0:44:46.687 --> 0:44:50.767
<v Speaker 1>the bet or not. And you know that that's the

0:44:50.847 --> 0:44:55.527
<v Speaker 1>sort of way of being. I don't necessarily see myself

0:44:55.807 --> 0:45:01.007
<v Speaker 1>married or or you know, growing old with one person.

0:45:01.247 --> 0:45:04.727
<v Speaker 1>I see myself growing old with a bunch of dogs.

0:45:05.007 --> 0:45:08.567
<v Speaker 1>Love it and the people who I really care about.

0:45:08.727 --> 0:45:13.807
<v Speaker 1>My My friendships have been the longest running relationships in

0:45:13.847 --> 0:45:18.847
<v Speaker 1>my life aside from my family, and they are infinitely

0:45:19.327 --> 0:45:23.207
<v Speaker 1>precious to me. And I can imagine a life without them.

0:45:23.247 --> 0:45:26.167
<v Speaker 1>And I think a life where I prioritize those friendships

0:45:26.887 --> 0:45:27.887
<v Speaker 1>sounds wonderful.

0:45:28.127 --> 0:45:32.807
<v Speaker 2>It's a very common female fantasy that we finally get

0:45:32.887 --> 0:45:38.887
<v Speaker 2>time to really honor those relationships when all the other

0:45:38.967 --> 0:45:44.247
<v Speaker 2>caring responsibilities are done, like that we can go to

0:45:44.287 --> 0:45:48.687
<v Speaker 2>the commune, go to dog Island, just.

0:45:50.167 --> 0:45:52.727
<v Speaker 3>Be with each other, just.

0:45:52.847 --> 0:45:58.447
<v Speaker 1>Be just be covens of witches, crazy dog ladies, all

0:45:58.527 --> 0:46:00.687
<v Speaker 1>of those, all of them. I want to be all

0:46:00.767 --> 0:46:04.007
<v Speaker 1>of those cliches. I want to have purple hair, I

0:46:04.047 --> 0:46:09.687
<v Speaker 1>want to you know, have lovers. Yes. One.

0:46:09.847 --> 0:46:12.767
<v Speaker 2>I've got one more question, which I should have asked earlier,

0:46:12.807 --> 0:46:17.807
<v Speaker 2>but actually it was about age and sex because for

0:46:17.887 --> 0:46:20.687
<v Speaker 2>lots of us, as we go through perimenopause and menopause,

0:46:20.687 --> 0:46:26.127
<v Speaker 2>a libido takes a beating. I am interested curious to

0:46:26.247 --> 0:46:29.167
<v Speaker 2>know if you are kind of going through and I'm

0:46:29.207 --> 0:46:34.167
<v Speaker 2>really sorry for the cliched language, like a sexual realignment

0:46:34.487 --> 0:46:36.527
<v Speaker 2>or something I don't know, or you're just single again

0:46:36.647 --> 0:46:38.607
<v Speaker 2>for the first time in that period of life.

0:46:39.727 --> 0:46:41.447
<v Speaker 3>How do you juggle that?

0:46:43.327 --> 0:46:46.887
<v Speaker 2>And do you think that the desire, like the desire

0:46:46.927 --> 0:46:47.847
<v Speaker 2>can override that.

0:46:48.807 --> 0:46:51.967
<v Speaker 1>Ah, The libido is a real thing. It is a

0:46:52.087 --> 0:46:55.167
<v Speaker 1>real thing, and it's it's true of so many women

0:46:55.207 --> 0:46:57.687
<v Speaker 1>that I talk to and women who I date as well.

0:46:57.727 --> 0:47:01.607
<v Speaker 1>It is. It is a and I love HRT. I

0:47:01.807 --> 0:47:06.567
<v Speaker 1>really adore it, and it's great about dating menopausal women

0:47:06.727 --> 0:47:08.447
<v Speaker 1>is like, you know, you have a really good time,

0:47:08.487 --> 0:47:10.087
<v Speaker 1>you go out, you have really good time, You get

0:47:10.127 --> 0:47:11.607
<v Speaker 1>into bed, you have a really good time. Then you

0:47:11.647 --> 0:47:13.727
<v Speaker 1>get up, you put on your estrogen.

0:47:13.287 --> 0:47:18.647
<v Speaker 2>And you say, everybody knows what they're doing.

0:47:21.607 --> 0:47:25.207
<v Speaker 1>And I'm hoping to maybe explore a testosterone and see

0:47:25.207 --> 0:47:29.607
<v Speaker 1>how that helps. But it is, it is a thing.

0:47:30.887 --> 0:47:34.367
<v Speaker 1>Dating does give you a bit of a wush. I

0:47:34.407 --> 0:47:38.407
<v Speaker 1>think having a new lover for anybody is an exciting thing.

0:47:38.807 --> 0:47:43.567
<v Speaker 1>Flirting is exciting, Touching is exciting. Snogging is just the

0:47:43.807 --> 0:47:49.127
<v Speaker 1>best I think real a lot of snogging can get

0:47:49.527 --> 0:47:53.807
<v Speaker 1>can get you over that lack of libido. It's just brilliant.

0:47:54.407 --> 0:47:59.407
<v Speaker 1>And what I love about dating women is that it

0:47:59.487 --> 0:48:04.927
<v Speaker 1>is not as focused on always one focused on the

0:48:05.327 --> 0:48:11.407
<v Speaker 1>act involving a penis, and so sex takes in a

0:48:11.487 --> 0:48:16.127
<v Speaker 1>wider variety of things to do, in ways to touch

0:48:16.167 --> 0:48:19.447
<v Speaker 1>and ways to feel, in ways to feel good then

0:48:20.047 --> 0:48:26.647
<v Speaker 1>traditionally is the case between men and women. So I've

0:48:26.687 --> 0:48:31.207
<v Speaker 1>found a lot of pleasure in that where libido actually

0:48:31.327 --> 0:48:33.247
<v Speaker 1>might not even have that much to do with it,

0:48:33.327 --> 0:48:35.567
<v Speaker 1>because there are so many things you can do to

0:48:35.607 --> 0:48:39.887
<v Speaker 1>feel good and to give yourself that endorphin hit and

0:48:39.927 --> 0:48:42.927
<v Speaker 1>to feel close and intimate to another person that's not

0:48:43.487 --> 0:48:47.607
<v Speaker 1>just the old in out, you know, and making hand gestures.

0:48:47.607 --> 0:48:49.207
<v Speaker 1>For those of you who are listening.

0:48:50.767 --> 0:48:53.927
<v Speaker 3>Yes, the old and out, they know that. Yeah, everybody's nudding.

0:48:55.527 --> 0:49:03.247
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Jie, Well, how beautiful was that?

0:49:03.687 --> 0:49:06.367
<v Speaker 2>I don't think we talked about this on the interview,

0:49:06.847 --> 0:49:10.007
<v Speaker 2>But when Julie writes in her two different persons, because

0:49:10.007 --> 0:49:12.047
<v Speaker 2>she writes as Julie May Cohen and she writes as

0:49:12.087 --> 0:49:14.327
<v Speaker 2>Julie Cohen and we talked about it. She writes these

0:49:14.367 --> 0:49:17.407
<v Speaker 2>feminist thrillers, and she writes these romance books. She actually

0:49:17.447 --> 0:49:19.487
<v Speaker 2>sits on different sides of her study and they have

0:49:19.887 --> 0:49:21.287
<v Speaker 2>different pictures on the walls and.

0:49:21.247 --> 0:49:22.127
<v Speaker 3>A different atmosphere.

0:49:22.127 --> 0:49:25.487
<v Speaker 2>I've found all that so interesting, you know, just the

0:49:25.567 --> 0:49:29.287
<v Speaker 2>idea that isn't that shocking, really, But we all contain multitudes,

0:49:29.287 --> 0:49:32.767
<v Speaker 2>and we're very often being told pick a lane, stay there,

0:49:33.127 --> 0:49:35.367
<v Speaker 2>and you know, sometimes in Mid that shit just all

0:49:35.447 --> 0:49:38.567
<v Speaker 2>falls apart. Anyway, there's a link to where you can

0:49:38.567 --> 0:49:40.767
<v Speaker 2>find out more about Julie and her novels in the

0:49:40.767 --> 0:49:42.807
<v Speaker 2>show notes to this episode, So go and have a

0:49:42.807 --> 0:49:44.527
<v Speaker 2>look there and you'll see where you can buy the books.

0:49:45.047 --> 0:49:46.727
<v Speaker 2>As I said at the top, this is the last

0:49:46.727 --> 0:49:49.527
<v Speaker 2>traditional MID episode for twenty twenty four, and I'm going

0:49:49.607 --> 0:49:51.047
<v Speaker 2>to ask for a Christmas present.

0:49:51.167 --> 0:49:51.967
<v Speaker 1>I know that's rude.

0:49:51.967 --> 0:49:53.847
<v Speaker 2>I know you're not supposed to do it, but if

0:49:53.887 --> 0:49:56.327
<v Speaker 2>you like Mid, if you've really enjoyed it this year,

0:49:56.367 --> 0:49:58.247
<v Speaker 2>and we only launched this year. We launched in May,

0:49:58.327 --> 0:50:00.807
<v Speaker 2>so we've only had six or seven months of Mid.

0:50:01.487 --> 0:50:04.407
<v Speaker 2>Like it, Share it, review us, give us five stars,

0:50:04.647 --> 0:50:08.567
<v Speaker 2>Tell a friend. It really really helps this show become

0:50:08.647 --> 0:50:11.647
<v Speaker 2>and stay successful, and that means that then brands want

0:50:11.647 --> 0:50:13.367
<v Speaker 2>to partner with it, and that means we can keep

0:50:13.407 --> 0:50:15.927
<v Speaker 2>making it. And that's how it all works. So if

0:50:15.967 --> 0:50:19.287
<v Speaker 2>you love Mid, please support us with your likes, your

0:50:19.367 --> 0:50:22.527
<v Speaker 2>five star reviews, your shares, your follows, and I will

0:50:22.527 --> 0:50:26.007
<v Speaker 2>be eternally grateful because making this show has been the

0:50:26.087 --> 0:50:28.687
<v Speaker 2>highlight of twenty twenty four for me. And if you

0:50:28.727 --> 0:50:31.087
<v Speaker 2>want to hear more stories about sex, who doesn't listen

0:50:31.127 --> 0:50:33.687
<v Speaker 2>to episode one of season two with Leslie Morgan who,

0:50:33.767 --> 0:50:36.447
<v Speaker 2>after her divorce went on a little bit of a

0:50:36.447 --> 0:50:40.247
<v Speaker 2>sexual adventure. It is so good that conversation and all

0:50:40.287 --> 0:50:42.127
<v Speaker 2>the way back in season one, which is naturally that

0:50:42.207 --> 0:50:47.207
<v Speaker 2>far back, as discussed Catherine Mahoney about midlife dating is hilarious.

0:50:47.567 --> 0:50:49.447
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for being with us on this mid journey,

0:50:49.487 --> 0:50:52.167
<v Speaker 2>and thank you, of course to our amazing team ep

0:50:52.527 --> 0:50:56.647
<v Speaker 2>Nama Brown, our producer Charlie Blackman, our audio producer Jacob

0:50:56.647 --> 0:50:58.967
<v Speaker 2>Brown and all the talented people have worked on Mid

0:50:59.007 --> 0:50:59.487
<v Speaker 2>this year.

0:50:59.847 --> 0:51:01.887
<v Speaker 3>It's been a wild ride. Can't wait to show you

0:51:01.887 --> 0:51:04.567
<v Speaker 3>we've got in store next year. Have a wonderful summer,