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Speaker 1: Truechrime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 1: that this podcast was recorded on It's seven fifteen pm

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Speaker 1: on an ordinary March evening in Melbourne in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Barber is serving up dinner to her two

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Speaker 1: youngest daughters. She keeps glancing at the door. Her eldest Rachel,

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Speaker 1: and her husband Mike, should already be home. Fifteen year

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Speaker 1: old Rachel is a full time dance student. After a

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Speaker 1: day at the studio, she was supposed to meet her

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Speaker 1: dad at the tram stop at seven forty pm. The

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Speaker 1: phone rings, It's Mike. Rachel never got off the tram.

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Speaker 1: As her parents soon find out, Rachel had been telling

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Speaker 1: her friends and her boyfriend that she had a paying

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Speaker 1: job that night. She was going to earn one hundred

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Speaker 1: bucks and she was going to spend it on some

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Speaker 1: shoes she had her eye on. She was guarded about

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Speaker 1: what the job was. It was a secret, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't anything to worry about. She was going with an

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Speaker 1: old female friend. She'd told them what could possibly go wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the days after Rachel went missing, her family plastered

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Speaker 1: Melbourne in more than two thousand posters appealing for anyone

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Speaker 1: who might have seen her. For days, they kept hope alive,

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Speaker 1: But on day twelve of their frantic search, they were

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Speaker 1: delivered the worst news imaginable. Rachel, their beloved daughter, granddaughter,

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Speaker 1: and sister, had been murdered. Her killer was a nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old who used to live across the street, a

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Speaker 1: former babysitter, a friend of the family, A young woman

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Speaker 1: filled with jealousy, self hate, and an obsession with the beautiful,

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Speaker 1: talented Rachel, who she'd been stalking for several years. Criminal

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Speaker 1: court reporter Megan Norris has written a book alongside Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Rachel's mum, called Perfect Victim. It details two sides of

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Speaker 1: this story, the family's heart rendering experience told through first

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Speaker 1: person recollections and letters written to Rachel, and the analysis

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Speaker 1: of the case itself. Meghan joins us. Now, Meghan, tell

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Speaker 1: me about the Barber family and what their life looked

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Speaker 1: like in nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: They were just a regular family. They were very artistic,

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Speaker 2: all of them. They're that sort of arty family that

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Speaker 2: strikes you straightway, very creative, very kind, quiet living sort

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Speaker 2: of people don't drink, don't smoke, just quietly living their life.

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Speaker 2: Dad was the toy maker Mike, so he made toys

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Speaker 2: from home where Elizabeth worked in a bookshop in Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: a very well known bookshop. But her father, Ivan Southall,

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Speaker 2: was a very famous Australian children's author with Pengwin Books,

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Speaker 2: so he was very well known. But the family she

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Speaker 2: got three young girls in nineteen ninety nine. Rachel would

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Speaker 2: have been just fifteen, Ashley Rose would have been around ten,

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Speaker 2: and I think Heather would have been around seven. They

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Speaker 2: just lived a quiet little life in a very sleepy

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Speaker 2: suburb of Melbourne in Montalbert it's a very leafy, older

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Speaker 2: traditional suburb, you know, and full of old hases. And

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Speaker 2: they lived across the road from these neighbors who also

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Speaker 2: had three daughters who lived directly opposite. Their girls were

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Speaker 2: a few years each in age older than Elizabeth and

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Speaker 2: Mike's children. So Rachel at that time was fifteen. So

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Speaker 2: Caroline over the road, the oldest of the three girls

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Speaker 2: over the road would have been nineteen then just nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Before we tell this story, I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: about your relationship with the Barbers, because you've actually written

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Speaker 1: a book alongside Elizabeth Rachel's mum. What was that experience like, well.

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Speaker 2: I'd never written a book at all before. So I'd

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Speaker 2: come from news, where I wrote short, sharp stories in

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Speaker 2: a hurry, as you'd know. Yes, so I was used

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Speaker 2: to being told, you know, five hundred words in half

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Speaker 2: an hour, can you do it? And I'd go and

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Speaker 2: do it. And I covered courts, so that was my job,

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Speaker 2: and I met Elizabeth through that job. So I was

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Speaker 2: covering the court case and I'd gone to do an

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Speaker 2: interview for Woman's Dale, one of the magazines, and so heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: I've visited them a few times over that time, and

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Speaker 2: I continued to follow the case to its conclusion, and

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Speaker 2: she said, I'm going to write a book when all

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Speaker 2: this was over. And she was keeping meticulous journals as

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Speaker 2: she could process it by keeping journals, and it allows

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Speaker 2: you to get some of that stuff that goes round

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Speaker 2: and round your head onto a computer screen. It sort

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Speaker 2: of unloading s theburden I find with victims of violent crime,

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Speaker 2: keeping journals is often something that they do. So she

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Speaker 2: proposed this idea. You know, I'd like to write a book,

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Speaker 2: and think I'm going to propose a book, and apparently

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Speaker 2: she did. Her proposal was to write a heartfelt book

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Speaker 2: about a mother's journey through grief, and more to the point,

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Speaker 2: the mother of a fifteen year old missing girl that

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Speaker 2: she knew from the minute that little girl did not

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Speaker 2: come home, she knew something terrible had happened. I would

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Speaker 2: cover the police investigation to find Rachel, and they weren't

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Speaker 2: looking for a murderer. They were looking for a missing girl.

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Speaker 2: At that time, they thought she'd run away, and I

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Speaker 2: would do that side of the story, and I would

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Speaker 2: also paint a picture of what was going on in

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Speaker 2: Caroline's life and those factors that had led her to

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Speaker 2: tip over the edge and make this plan for a murder.

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Speaker 2: So it had to add balance to Elizabeth's heartbreaking part

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Speaker 2: of the book, which was a personal journey through grief,

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Speaker 2: and each one was told from a different perspective, and

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Speaker 2: it actually worked really well.

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Speaker 1: Talk about the night Rachel went missing, because Elizabeth talks

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Speaker 1: about that in such great detail, about the panic that

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Speaker 1: she felt. Why were they so quick to raise the

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Speaker 1: alarm when Rachel went missing.

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Speaker 2: Because in many ways she wasn't a regular teenager. She

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Speaker 2: didn't have a mobile phone. They were families that didn't

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Speaker 2: own a mobile phone. This was a family they did

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Speaker 2: things the old fashioned way, you know, they picked people up,

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Speaker 2: they didn't call, They made arrangements and stuck to them.

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Speaker 2: So when Mike drove to Kemperwell to meet Rachel from

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Speaker 2: the tram and she didn't get off, he was immediately alarmed.

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Speaker 2: She'd got this lovely boyfriend and they were doing things together,

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Speaker 2: so she thought maybe he would know where she was.

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Speaker 2: So but he had to ring home to let Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: know Rachel hadn't got off the tram, and they immediately

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Speaker 2: panicked because it was completely out of character. She was

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Speaker 2: extremely compliant, very reliable, and she didn't do anything out

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Speaker 2: of the ordinary ever, and certainly not without telling her family.

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Speaker 2: I think Mike went back home about half an hour

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Speaker 2: drive and as soon as he walked in, Elizabeth said

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Speaker 2: she knew something terrible had happened. They rang her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: nanny and he said, no, she's not with me, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know where she's gone. But I think he

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Speaker 2: said that she'd mentioned something about going to meet an

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Speaker 2: old friend, and they were really but forul buy that

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Speaker 2: one old friend. Who has she gone to me? And

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Speaker 2: they said to Money, did she tell you anything about that?

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Speaker 2: And he said no, it was a secret. Now she

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Speaker 2: didn't keep secrets from him. She adored him. She told

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Speaker 2: him absolutely everything. So even he thought that was odd.

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Speaker 2: Everything about that night was odd, so immediately they thought

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Speaker 2: something unto ordered happened.

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Speaker 1: Whether police is quick to think something was wrong now.

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Speaker 2: And that was why Elizabeth wanted to do the book.

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Speaker 2: I think because of her experience. And I'll explain that

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Speaker 2: there's you'd know in news, And I thought about this

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Speaker 2: a lot after I wrote the book. If someone came

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Speaker 2: into the office and said, look up, my daughter's gone

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Speaker 2: missing an hour ago, the first thing I would say

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Speaker 2: is how old is she? And unfortunately, if they said

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Speaker 2: she's a fifteen year old girl, I'd think she'll probably

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Speaker 2: be back in a few hours. You know, that's the

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Speaker 2: biggest number of missing people of fifteen year old girls.

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Speaker 2: And so when fifteen year old girls normally go missing,

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Speaker 2: it's usually they've gone to a party or mum and

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Speaker 2: dad have told them they can't do something and they've thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing it, and they've gone off and done it anyway.

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Speaker 2: Then they know they're in trouble, so they think, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm in trouble anyway, I might as well stop out

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Speaker 2: all night, and they crash at her friends and turn

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Speaker 2: up tomorrow feeling sorry for themselves, and they know they're

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Speaker 2: in for it. You know they're in trouble, and that

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Speaker 2: is what happens. They went straight to the police station

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Speaker 2: on that night and reported Rachel missing. That was the

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Speaker 2: reaction of the police. That would have been my reaction

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Speaker 2: if they'd have come into the office. And I would

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Speaker 2: honestly have thought, if I run this story tomorrow, she

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Speaker 2: will have turned up feeling sorry for herself and in trouble,

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Speaker 2: and I will have wasted everybody's time. And I think

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Speaker 2: the police's attitude is will wait and see for forty

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Speaker 2: eight hours. She'll probably come back tomorrow. But they knew,

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Speaker 2: you know, they knew their daughter, and they said, surely

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Speaker 2: the first forty eight hours are very important. Well, we

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Speaker 2: know they are with missing kids or missing people, and

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Speaker 2: that first forty eight hours is crucial. So the police

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Speaker 2: delay in that was very upsetting and frustrating for Michael

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Speaker 2: and Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: Can you paint the picture of who Rachel was and

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Speaker 1: tell us what her life was like at the time.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that she was the eldest of three kids.

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Speaker 1: She was also a full time dance student.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't she yeah, she was. She was different. She was

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Speaker 2: very creative, and she was a little girl with big dreams.

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Speaker 2: She was dreaming of being in musicals like cats. She

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Speaker 2: wanted to go to the West End and dance on

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Speaker 2: the West End. It was all she ever did. It

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Speaker 2: was more than a passion. It was like the air

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Speaker 2: she breathed. It was who she was. And I remember

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Speaker 2: going there to visit Elizabeth in the early days, and

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Speaker 2: she showed me a video. It was called Rachel and

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Speaker 2: her Sisters. That really sticks in my mind. And even

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Speaker 2: as a really little girl, she wouldn't have been very old,

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Speaker 2: so her little sisters then were really little, but she

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Speaker 2: was dancing with veils and floating around and the little

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Speaker 2: kids were sitting there soaking it up. They were the audience.

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Speaker 2: Mum and Dad were the audience. She was doing it

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Speaker 2: from the time she could walk. I believe she was

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Speaker 2: destined for really big things, and so Mum and Dad

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Speaker 2: encouraged that she didn't like school. She hated school. All

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Speaker 2: she wanted to do was dance, and in the end

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Speaker 2: she was so unhappy they thought they might as well

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Speaker 2: bite the bullet, and so that she'd been going to

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Speaker 2: this lovely dance school in Richmond, and Mum and dad thought, well,

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Speaker 2: why don't you go full time? I think her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: Mammy was a full time student there, and a couple

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Speaker 2: of other kids were, and that's all she wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that she'd told Manny that she was going

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Speaker 1: to see a female friend or an old female friend.

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Speaker 1: What were the other clues that she'd let on to

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Speaker 1: her fellow dance classmates. She'd said things along the lines of,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've got a pair of shoes, I've got

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Speaker 1: a paying job, little tidbits that her parents kind of

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Speaker 1: started piecing together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was sort of drifting out. It was almost

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Speaker 2: like that information started to filter through over those days,

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Speaker 2: the very first couple of days she was missing, because

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Speaker 2: they were totally baffled. She was always with money, she

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Speaker 2: was joined at the hip, they were inseparable. Where else

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Speaker 2: could she possibly have gone. Didn't have a lot of friends,

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Speaker 2: and they're all in the dancing. She said things like,

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Speaker 2: I've got a little job that's going to earn me

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Speaker 2: a lot of money. She told money that. And the

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Speaker 2: day before she went missing, they'd gone out into Richmond,

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Speaker 2: I think at lunchtime, and she had taken manage very

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Speaker 2: excited and pointed out this wildly expensive pair of shoes

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Speaker 2: in a shop, and she was very excited, and she said,

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Speaker 2: when I get the money, I'm going to buy those shoes.

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Speaker 2: Was a big deal for these shoes. And he said,

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Speaker 2: where are you going to get the money from. She said, well,

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Speaker 2: I've got a little job. It's a secret. I can't

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Speaker 2: tell anyone. So all these things started to surface in

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Speaker 2: the hours after she went missing.

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Speaker 1: What was the relationship like between Caroline and the barbers?

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Speaker 1: Her family lived across the road. How close were they?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was a bit of that. They were very different.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're total opposites, polar opposites. So you know,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth and Micah they lived on the smell of an

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Speaker 2: oily rag. They were frugal, they didn't waste money, The

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Speaker 2: kids didn't have mobiles. They lived a quiet life. The

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Speaker 2: family over the road, mum and dad's marriage was not

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Speaker 2: caught and I believe that must have been affecting Caroline

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Speaker 2: too in her teens and Gail over the road, Caroline's

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Speaker 2: mum was very friendly with Elizabeth. I would say Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: and Mike were more friendly with Gail because David, Caroline's father,

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Speaker 2: was always working. He was a very accomplished businessman who

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Speaker 2: was very successful, and he was working a lot. And

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Speaker 2: Gail would constantly drift over and sit in the kitchen

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Speaker 2: with Elizabeth and over cups of coffee and cups of tea.

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Speaker 2: You know, she'd say things weren't great at home. Caroline

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Speaker 2: was giving them problems. They had a lot of dysfunction

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Speaker 2: in the family. Gail was quite depressed and unhappy, and

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Speaker 2: I told Elizabeth that she wasn't feeling very secure in

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Speaker 2: her marriage, wasn't very happy. They were having a lot

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Speaker 2: of difficulties with Caroline, who was a troublesome teenager. She

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Speaker 2: was quite disengaged. You know teenagers are. I've got one here.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're grunt and they don't talk. But she

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Speaker 2: became very withdrawn. It was more than that she would babysit.

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Speaker 2: Caroline became Rachel and Ashley Roseen, Heather's babysitter. So she

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Speaker 2: was nearly five years older. So she would come over

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Speaker 2: when Rachel was about ten, and she would have been

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Speaker 2: about fourteen fifteen, and she would come over and babysit

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Speaker 2: for them. They were quite friendly as neighbors. I don't

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Speaker 2: think they ocalized together or anything like that, but they

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Speaker 2: were quite friendly as neighbors. Elizabeth's very kind and very empathetic,

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Speaker 2: and I think she felt sad and sorry that the

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Speaker 2: girl was unhappy and she was basically struggling on her own.

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Speaker 2: And eventually the marriage did collapse, but I think it

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Speaker 2: was in Free four. Well.

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Speaker 1: Part of Caroline's kind of problems, I guess you could

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Speaker 1: say was that she had an awfully low self esteem

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Speaker 1: of herself, didn't she She.

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Speaker 2: Had very very low confidence, and that came through quite significantly.

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Speaker 2: My role was to sort of make when children are murdered,

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Speaker 2: especially the focus is on the background of the killer,

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Speaker 2: you know, what made them do it. And Elizabeth didn't

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Speaker 2: want that to be the book, you know. She wanted

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Speaker 2: people to understand this was a real little girl, put

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Speaker 2: a human face to that tragedy. My job was to

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Speaker 2: be more objective and was to look at the factors

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Speaker 2: that were influencing Caroline in her formative years, what led

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Speaker 2: to that point, you know. So I was looking at

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Speaker 2: her from quite young. She was the oldest of three.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't close to her sisters. She fought with them

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Speaker 2: and argued with them, and that certainly came out in

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Speaker 2: her own writing. She also kept journals. She painted her

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Speaker 2: room completely black in her teens, completely black, and stopped

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Speaker 2: coming out. She wouldn't come out. She became very gothic

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Speaker 2: in her appearance. You know, dyed a hair black. Here

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Speaker 2: sings and I think it's a dead giveaway. You know,

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Speaker 2: she became very overweight, and I think that was because

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Speaker 2: she was depressed. Certainly a writing spoke to a depressed

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Speaker 2: young girl. But she's hiding herself in her room. Very

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Speaker 2: significant that she painted her room black. I think she

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Speaker 2: was immersed in that blackness. It's sort of very telling.

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Speaker 2: It's a metaphor, isn't it, for the miserable hole. She's

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Speaker 2: feeling like she's drowning in, puts on a lot of weight,

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Speaker 2: and becomes very belligerent, But she clings to her father.

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Speaker 2: She's obviously had a very close relationship with dad, and

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Speaker 2: I think he had moved out by then, and she

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Speaker 2: was really struggling with that rejection. It wasn't just him

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Speaker 2: rejecting moments, personally him rejecting her.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the clues that suggested initially

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Speaker 1: that Caroline might have been involved. So this is once

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Speaker 1: the police actually started to look into the case. Quite

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Speaker 1: a few days after Elizabeth and Mike had gone to

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Speaker 1: them worried. There was a witness that had seen the

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Speaker 1: two girls on a tram and there was a phone

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Speaker 1: tap that they managed to find. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about them?

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Speaker 2: Yes? It Actually she didn't come into the picture until

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Speaker 2: quite late on, which I think is really interesting because

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Speaker 2: they really had no clues. Then this people started to

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Speaker 2: come forward. What they did was they did a photo

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Speaker 2: identic kit photo. So this young girl was a girl

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Speaker 2: that Rachel had known from when she was younger. She

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00:16:53,872 --> 00:16:56,072
Speaker 2: wasn't at the dance school. She was a girl that

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00:16:56,152 --> 00:17:00,112
Speaker 2: remembered Rachel from some time ago, an older girl, and

303
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Speaker 2: she saw a story I think they went on Australia's

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Speaker 2: Most Wanted It was one of those Missing Persons show

305
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Speaker 2: and saw it. This girl had got a photographic memory,

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Speaker 2: she really did, and she recalled seeing Rachel with an

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Speaker 2: older girl that she didn't recognize on the tram to Parann,

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Speaker 2: which is baffling to Mike and Elizabeth because it was

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Speaker 2: a suburb that they never went to. Well on earth

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Speaker 2: would she be doing in Perern. But this girl was

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Speaker 2: adamant that she had seen her talking with this older girl,

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Speaker 2: overweight girl on a tramp. The family found out about this.

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Speaker 2: I think that she may have rang the house and

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Speaker 2: spoken with Elizabeth and they immediately contacted the police. So

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Speaker 2: she went and made a statement, and it would have

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Speaker 2: been on the afternoon she disappeared. So Mannie saw her

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Speaker 2: off and she went off to catch this tram for

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Speaker 2: this secret appointment that she had, and the girl saw

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Speaker 2: her on the tram and did this identic kit photo

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Speaker 2: from memory, and it was amazingly like her. She had

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Speaker 2: an absolutely photographic memory. And from that other people started

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Speaker 2: to come forward. The police by now had put a

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Speaker 2: tap on the phones and they had found that Elizabeth

324
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Speaker 2: had had halls in that time lapse after Rachel went missing.

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Speaker 2: So Caroline had obviously called the house to sort assess

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Speaker 2: o what was going on, but she'd also made previous

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Speaker 2: calls to the house, long ones, lengthy phone calls that

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth didn't know anything about, and so some of those

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Speaker 2: calls were to Rachel, and there had been a particular call.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth then remembered some time before Caroline had called the

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Speaker 2: house out of the blue, and what had happened was

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Speaker 2: they had moved suburbs So the Barbers had moved from

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Speaker 2: mont Albert to Bayswater, nor several suburbs away. It was

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Speaker 2: a move a couple of years before, so it was

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Speaker 2: odd for Elizabeth to suddenly have this phone call out

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Speaker 2: of the blue from Caroline, asking details about Rachel's birthdate,

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Speaker 2: asking about Elizabeth's maiden name Southwall, asking all these odd

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Speaker 2: pieces of random information. And Elizabeth asked her what she

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00:19:08,671 --> 00:19:11,351
Speaker 2: wanted them for, and she said, I'm doing the school

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Speaker 2: project on Rachel. Well, at the time, Elizabeth didn't give

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Speaker 2: it any thought at all. She didn't give it any thought.

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Speaker 2: She didn't think to say, what is it about, Why

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Speaker 2: are you doing this? It just didn't occur to her.

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Speaker 2: And they're very trusting family. Yeah, so what we now

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Speaker 2: know is that Caroline was collecting information. It wasn't for

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Speaker 2: a project, well it was for a project. It was

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Speaker 2: for a project for murder. But she was collecting information

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Speaker 2: because she had applied for Rachel's birth certificate, because she

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Speaker 2: was already refining a blueprint for murder, and no one

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Speaker 2: knew that.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Megan Norris about the murder of Rachel

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Speaker 1: Barber Up. Next, we find out just how deep Caroline's

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Speaker 1: obsession with Rachel went. When the police started seeing these

355
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Speaker 1: links between Caroline and Rachel, what did they initially think.

356
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Speaker 1: They weren't thinking down the murder route. They were more

357
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Speaker 1: just thinking that these two young women, one of them

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Speaker 1: a teenager, had just run away together or something they did.

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Speaker 2: And even when she came onto the radar, for a

360
00:20:30,192 --> 00:20:32,311
Speaker 2: long while there were no leads. They had to apply

361
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Speaker 2: for a sort of rit to get onto Telstra to

362
00:20:35,032 --> 00:20:39,071
Speaker 2: give them permission to access outgoing a ingoing call. So

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00:20:39,111 --> 00:20:40,911
Speaker 2: they were able to do that and they started to

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Speaker 2: see this link from this person and then there was

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Speaker 2: the photo of this girl. So there they got another

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Speaker 2: teenager on the radar, and they thought maybe it was

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Speaker 2: some plan they'd got to run away. Maybe they're going

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Speaker 2: on an adventure, maybe they were planning a holiday, you

369
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Speaker 2: know a bit of a weekend. But it was all

370
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Speaker 2: odd to the Barbers because and money. Her boyfriend said,

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Speaker 2: there's no way she would have done that. So the

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Speaker 2: police were looking at her more to say do you

373
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Speaker 2: know where she is? Something about where she may be.

374
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Speaker 2: They were still looking for a missing girl, a runaway

375
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Speaker 2: in their mind, and despite Elizabeth and Mike's protest to

376
00:21:14,992 --> 00:21:19,272
Speaker 2: the contrary, there was nothing to suggest foul play. You know,

377
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Speaker 2: do you know this girl? Yeah, she used to babysit them,

378
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Speaker 2: so they were looking like friends. So they had gone

379
00:21:24,752 --> 00:21:27,792
Speaker 2: to the house that all sort of passed then led

380
00:21:27,831 --> 00:21:31,311
Speaker 2: to Caroline's apartment, so they got an address for her.

381
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Speaker 2: Once they got a name, they got a workplace. When

382
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Speaker 2: they got her workplace, they got her address, and she

383
00:21:36,792 --> 00:21:38,711
Speaker 2: hadn't been into work for a few days around the

384
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Speaker 2: time that Rachel disappeared, so that was a red flag.

385
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Speaker 2: They still think she's got something to do with the disappearance,

386
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Speaker 2: but not a murder. So the police go to the

387
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Speaker 2: house and they knock on the door and no one answers,

388
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Speaker 2: and there's obviously someone in, and I think they got

389
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Speaker 2: quite panicky, and they got a ladder and got up

390
00:21:55,992 --> 00:21:58,191
Speaker 2: to the window. She was on an upper floor and

391
00:21:58,232 --> 00:22:02,512
Speaker 2: they could see that she was unconscious. But Caroline was epileptic,

392
00:22:03,512 --> 00:22:06,311
Speaker 2: so she'd had an epileptic fit, so they didn't know

393
00:22:06,391 --> 00:22:08,392
Speaker 2: what had happened. They broke into the house, they called

394
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Speaker 2: an ambulance, took at a hospital. Still looking at a

395
00:22:11,992 --> 00:22:15,071
Speaker 2: missing person, what do you know about this runaway girl.

396
00:22:15,472 --> 00:22:19,111
Speaker 2: After she came out of that epileptic fit. There's a

397
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Speaker 2: period where they've got a medical name. I can't remember

398
00:22:21,952 --> 00:22:24,352
Speaker 2: what it is, but it's where they're not quite with it.

399
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Speaker 2: One of the detectives sat by the bed and her

400
00:22:28,111 --> 00:22:30,792
Speaker 2: father came to the hospital and with her father's permission,

401
00:22:31,151 --> 00:22:34,511
Speaker 2: the detective spoke with Caroline and the question was, do

402
00:22:34,591 --> 00:22:36,991
Speaker 2: you know where Rachel is? Do you know where she

403
00:22:37,071 --> 00:22:39,511
Speaker 2: may have gone? Those were the questions they were asking,

404
00:22:40,151 --> 00:22:45,032
Speaker 2: as if she were a runaway and she said dead. Now,

405
00:22:45,071 --> 00:22:49,471
Speaker 2: no one was expecting that. No one was expecting that.

406
00:22:50,032 --> 00:22:53,712
Speaker 2: And he said, I beg your pardon. She said she's dead,

407
00:22:55,472 --> 00:22:58,151
Speaker 2: and they said do you know where she is? Yes,

408
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Speaker 2: she's buried in a pet cemetery on my dad's farm.

409
00:23:02,071 --> 00:23:06,232
Speaker 2: They had a farm property out at Kilmore. And immediately

410
00:23:06,351 --> 00:23:08,752
Speaker 2: Caroline's father said, I'll tell you where that is. I

411
00:23:08,792 --> 00:23:10,631
Speaker 2: can draw you a map of the property. I know

412
00:23:10,671 --> 00:23:14,712
Speaker 2: where the pet cemetery is. But they couldn't believe their ears. Meanwhile,

413
00:23:14,752 --> 00:23:17,351
Speaker 2: the detectives were still at her flat looking for clues,

414
00:23:17,871 --> 00:23:19,792
Speaker 2: and that's when the whole thing started to take a

415
00:23:19,792 --> 00:23:22,472
Speaker 2: bit of a twist. So while two of the detectives

416
00:23:22,512 --> 00:23:25,871
Speaker 2: were at the hospital with Caroline. The colleagues were going

417
00:23:25,911 --> 00:23:29,511
Speaker 2: through the flat and they found a large bag of

418
00:23:29,631 --> 00:23:34,431
Speaker 2: young women's clothes, which will clearly way too small for Caroline.

419
00:23:34,992 --> 00:23:37,751
Speaker 2: So they were clothes that they thought belonged to Rachel.

420
00:23:38,591 --> 00:23:40,952
Speaker 2: They didn't belong to Rachel. Caroline had bought them for

421
00:23:40,992 --> 00:23:44,471
Speaker 2: her for this secret job, and the secret job was

422
00:23:45,032 --> 00:23:47,831
Speaker 2: that she'd been lord there. Caroline had come up with

423
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Speaker 2: this story, if you come around, we'll photograph you for

424
00:23:50,631 --> 00:23:53,912
Speaker 2: a photo session. We'll get some photos done and you'll

425
00:23:53,952 --> 00:23:56,871
Speaker 2: get paid lots of money, and we've got nice clothes

426
00:23:56,871 --> 00:23:59,391
Speaker 2: for you to wear, and we'll take these photos. Rachel

427
00:23:59,391 --> 00:24:03,231
Speaker 2: did believe she was going to a proper appointment, but

428
00:24:03,311 --> 00:24:06,192
Speaker 2: that's not what happened. So she'd gone to Caroline's flat

429
00:24:06,192 --> 00:24:09,991
Speaker 2: for appointment, where Caroline had actually murdered her, but no

430
00:24:10,032 --> 00:24:12,671
Speaker 2: one knew that. What the police also found, which was

431
00:24:12,712 --> 00:24:17,151
Speaker 2: even more telling, at that apartment, they found a notebook

432
00:24:17,192 --> 00:24:20,272
Speaker 2: with pages ripped out of it, and you know, you've

433
00:24:20,311 --> 00:24:23,031
Speaker 2: got an indent underneath where writing has been, you get

434
00:24:23,071 --> 00:24:26,271
Speaker 2: an indentation. They'd got this new system that they just

435
00:24:26,311 --> 00:24:29,512
Speaker 2: started to use in Victoria. Police forensics at that time

436
00:24:29,752 --> 00:24:31,591
Speaker 2: where they were able to put it under an infrared

437
00:24:31,752 --> 00:24:35,231
Speaker 2: light and it literally brought the words back to life.

438
00:24:35,671 --> 00:24:39,311
Speaker 2: And what they found was the blueprint for murder. The

439
00:24:39,391 --> 00:24:42,752
Speaker 2: chances of them finding that it was absolutely a checklist

440
00:24:42,792 --> 00:24:46,591
Speaker 2: for murder. And she had written it, rewritten it, revised,

441
00:24:46,591 --> 00:24:50,032
Speaker 2: it refined right down to the last lettle how she

442
00:24:50,151 --> 00:24:52,792
Speaker 2: was going to get Rachel to the apartment, what she

443
00:24:52,911 --> 00:24:55,391
Speaker 2: was going to do to her, and where she was

444
00:24:55,431 --> 00:24:58,231
Speaker 2: going to dump her body and what would happen after that.

445
00:24:59,272 --> 00:25:02,031
Speaker 1: How did she say she was going to kill Rachel?

446
00:25:02,032 --> 00:25:03,432
Speaker 1: And is is that what happened?

447
00:25:03,952 --> 00:25:07,032
Speaker 2: Yes, she said she was going to strangle her. I

448
00:25:07,032 --> 00:25:09,952
Speaker 2: think the plan also hinted at stabbing her eyes out.

449
00:25:10,712 --> 00:25:14,751
Speaker 1: There was also mention of lacing pizza with drowsy powder.

450
00:25:14,831 --> 00:25:16,831
Speaker 1: So she'd kind of thought of everything in ways to

451
00:25:16,911 --> 00:25:19,711
Speaker 1: kind of make Rachel submit to her.

452
00:25:19,992 --> 00:25:22,992
Speaker 2: While she was going to drug a pizza with sedatives

453
00:25:23,431 --> 00:25:27,111
Speaker 2: knock her out, and she was going to strangle her,

454
00:25:27,472 --> 00:25:30,432
Speaker 2: cut her eyes out, and she was going to take

455
00:25:30,512 --> 00:25:34,151
Speaker 2: the body to the country and dump her. She thought

456
00:25:34,151 --> 00:25:39,791
Speaker 2: it through hire a carpet cleaner in advance, get carpets cleaned,

457
00:25:39,792 --> 00:25:43,071
Speaker 2: because she imagined there'd be a mess. Hire a coreer

458
00:25:43,151 --> 00:25:46,831
Speaker 2: van because she was epileptic. She didn't have a driving license,

459
00:25:47,391 --> 00:25:50,231
Speaker 2: so she couldn't drive. So how is she going to

460
00:25:50,272 --> 00:25:53,992
Speaker 2: get that body from her apartment to this place, which

461
00:25:54,111 --> 00:25:57,111
Speaker 2: was a good ninety minutes drive away in the country

462
00:25:57,391 --> 00:26:00,151
Speaker 2: towards Central Victoria. So she thought of that. She was

463
00:26:00,192 --> 00:26:02,551
Speaker 2: going to hire a van of some kind to do that,

464
00:26:02,831 --> 00:26:06,272
Speaker 2: clean the carpets afterwards. So it's like a very organized

465
00:26:06,992 --> 00:26:12,071
Speaker 2: blueprint for murder. Apply for Rachel's birth certificate, reinvent yourself.

466
00:26:12,591 --> 00:26:15,351
Speaker 2: She was going to assume Rachel's identity. That was the plan.

467
00:26:15,712 --> 00:26:18,031
Speaker 2: The plan, in a nutshell, was to murder Rachel and

468
00:26:18,071 --> 00:26:21,671
Speaker 2: steal her identity and come back as this bright, beautiful, happy,

469
00:26:21,992 --> 00:26:24,951
Speaker 2: talented little girl over the road. Now remember Caroline was

470
00:26:25,032 --> 00:26:29,432
Speaker 2: very overweight, very depressed, very low self worth, hated herself,

471
00:26:30,151 --> 00:26:34,151
Speaker 2: and to her, Rachel epitomized the perfect girl. She described

472
00:26:34,151 --> 00:26:36,991
Speaker 2: her as a white picket fence. You know, Rachel was

473
00:26:36,992 --> 00:26:40,232
Speaker 2: the perfect victim in every way.

474
00:26:41,151 --> 00:26:46,032
Speaker 1: Some of those journal entries detailed this obsession that you're

475
00:26:46,032 --> 00:26:50,471
Speaker 1: talking about, but in real kind of creepy detail, like

476
00:26:50,552 --> 00:26:53,192
Speaker 1: this pure infatuation with Rachel.

477
00:26:54,032 --> 00:26:57,191
Speaker 2: Well it was they found notes which showed she'd been

478
00:26:57,232 --> 00:27:00,631
Speaker 2: stalking Rachel, So this wasn't just a spur of the

479
00:27:00,671 --> 00:27:02,431
Speaker 2: moment plan. I think that's the big point for me,

480
00:27:03,192 --> 00:27:06,391
Speaker 2: the dates on those notes. She started to plan that

481
00:27:06,952 --> 00:27:10,871
Speaker 2: transformation into Rachel's image at the age of fourteen. So

482
00:27:10,911 --> 00:27:15,111
Speaker 2: when you think about that, this girl in that time period, Caroline,

483
00:27:15,831 --> 00:27:17,951
Speaker 2: from the time she was about fourteen, was planning the

484
00:27:18,032 --> 00:27:21,111
Speaker 2: murder of a girl across the road. Now this coincides

485
00:27:21,151 --> 00:27:23,391
Speaker 2: with the time frame where she painted her room black

486
00:27:24,871 --> 00:27:28,191
Speaker 2: withdrew to her bedroom, was angry and fighting with her

487
00:27:28,192 --> 00:27:31,751
Speaker 2: mother and sisters, very unhappy. The whole time she was

488
00:27:31,752 --> 00:27:35,272
Speaker 2: in that room, she was writing and refining a blueprint

489
00:27:35,311 --> 00:27:39,031
Speaker 2: for murder. So part of that blueprint for murder was

490
00:27:39,752 --> 00:27:42,711
Speaker 2: to steal Rachel's identity. She had to become her. So

491
00:27:43,311 --> 00:27:46,032
Speaker 2: as long ago as it was when she rang Elizabeth

492
00:27:46,032 --> 00:27:49,552
Speaker 2: some long time before and said she was doing a project,

493
00:27:50,192 --> 00:27:53,351
Speaker 2: she was actually collecting the information she needed to apply

494
00:27:53,472 --> 00:27:56,871
Speaker 2: for Rachel's birth certificate, which she did, so that was

495
00:27:56,911 --> 00:27:59,951
Speaker 2: like checked off the list something that she did. She

496
00:27:59,992 --> 00:28:02,591
Speaker 2: then had to think how she was going to morph

497
00:28:02,671 --> 00:28:06,032
Speaker 2: into Rachel. So she had a plan entitled how to

498
00:28:06,111 --> 00:28:10,952
Speaker 2: check in nine weeks, and she actually drafted this very

499
00:28:10,992 --> 00:28:14,272
Speaker 2: detail per how to change in nine weeks, lose weight,

500
00:28:15,712 --> 00:28:21,831
Speaker 2: get rid of pimples, dye hair, change your facial looks.

501
00:28:22,391 --> 00:28:25,631
Speaker 2: What the police also found with those notes she had

502
00:28:25,631 --> 00:28:30,311
Speaker 2: created this super creepy scrapbook where she had created an

503
00:28:30,391 --> 00:28:34,151
Speaker 2: image of a hybrid girl, and this girl was the

504
00:28:34,192 --> 00:28:36,192
Speaker 2: person she was going to be when she came back

505
00:28:36,192 --> 00:28:39,352
Speaker 2: as Rachel Barber. At the time, Dawson's Creek was a

506
00:28:39,352 --> 00:28:40,951
Speaker 2: big deal on Telly at the time. It was the

507
00:28:40,992 --> 00:28:45,711
Speaker 2: sort of cult watch Team TV series. So she'd got

508
00:28:45,911 --> 00:28:51,072
Speaker 2: Katie Holmes's smile, Claire Danes's blonde hair, and she'd made

509
00:28:51,152 --> 00:28:54,751
Speaker 2: notes like the way Claire Danes tilted her head in

510
00:28:54,792 --> 00:28:56,991
Speaker 2: the Romeo and Juliete film. It was like, I'm going

511
00:28:57,072 --> 00:28:59,671
Speaker 2: to model myself on that. On Jenu, I'm going to

512
00:28:59,712 --> 00:29:04,752
Speaker 2: look like a mixture, a hybrid of Katie Holmes, Claire Danes,

513
00:29:05,192 --> 00:29:08,552
Speaker 2: and Rachel Barber's eyes, which I thought was very significant.

514
00:29:08,792 --> 00:29:12,552
Speaker 2: So she had pasted these photos into this scrap book.

515
00:29:12,552 --> 00:29:15,152
Speaker 2: I think we ran the pages in the book. She

516
00:29:15,272 --> 00:29:18,911
Speaker 2: pasted all these photos of the look she wanted, and

517
00:29:18,952 --> 00:29:21,911
Speaker 2: it was very much a non new teenage look, and

518
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:24,952
Speaker 2: she gave herself a new name. She was not going

519
00:29:24,992 --> 00:29:27,472
Speaker 2: to call herself Rachel Barber. She was going to call

520
00:29:27,512 --> 00:29:31,552
Speaker 2: herself Jem Southall. It was really interesting because south Hall

521
00:29:32,431 --> 00:29:37,952
Speaker 2: was Elizabeth's maiden name, so and Jem, where did that

522
00:29:37,992 --> 00:29:41,232
Speaker 2: come from? She saw Rachel as a precious little jewel.

523
00:29:41,592 --> 00:29:45,911
Speaker 2: But Jem south Hall took root in Caroline's head really

524
00:29:46,032 --> 00:29:49,832
Speaker 2: early on. So sometime between that period where she was

525
00:29:49,872 --> 00:29:53,872
Speaker 2: fourteen and the time she killed at nineteen, she was

526
00:29:53,911 --> 00:29:57,832
Speaker 2: going to reinvent herself. She was planning to become someone else,

527
00:29:58,752 --> 00:30:02,112
Speaker 2: and that's someone was going to be a cross between

528
00:30:02,152 --> 00:30:07,632
Speaker 2: all these beautiful, attractive, seductive young teenage girl, including Rachel Barber,

529
00:30:08,112 --> 00:30:12,712
Speaker 2: and in her hybrid girl paced up, she had Rachel's

530
00:30:12,712 --> 00:30:15,671
Speaker 2: eyes and she made notes of it. Rachel's green eyes,

531
00:30:15,792 --> 00:30:19,272
Speaker 2: Rachel's eyes. They were very important to her, which is

532
00:30:19,352 --> 00:30:21,792
Speaker 2: why I think it became significant in that plan that

533
00:30:21,872 --> 00:30:26,511
Speaker 2: she toyed with the idea of destroying Rachel's eyes. And

534
00:30:26,552 --> 00:30:28,671
Speaker 2: I think, if you think about it, strangulation is a

535
00:30:28,872 --> 00:30:34,312
Speaker 2: very up close and personal crime. The last eyes that

536
00:30:34,552 --> 00:30:37,872
Speaker 2: Rachel would have seen were Caroline's, and the last eyes

537
00:30:37,911 --> 00:30:43,152
Speaker 2: Caroline would have seen would have been Rachel's so chilling, Yeah,

538
00:30:43,192 --> 00:30:43,872
Speaker 2: it is chilling.

539
00:30:44,552 --> 00:30:48,512
Speaker 1: What was the plan? Was it to trick Rachel's family

540
00:30:48,592 --> 00:30:50,752
Speaker 1: into thinking that she was her or was it just

541
00:30:50,792 --> 00:30:52,792
Speaker 1: to kind of steal her identity and kind of move

542
00:30:52,952 --> 00:30:54,751
Speaker 1: away and create a whole new life.

543
00:30:55,192 --> 00:30:57,792
Speaker 2: Yes, part of her blueprint for murder was, you know,

544
00:30:57,872 --> 00:31:01,951
Speaker 2: she had the strange list lose weight, new skin facials,

545
00:31:02,032 --> 00:31:06,032
Speaker 2: dye hair, get rid of pimples, move to bond eye

546
00:31:06,392 --> 00:31:08,952
Speaker 2: Jem Southall and that name kept coming up, Jem south

547
00:31:09,032 --> 00:31:11,431
Speaker 2: Or moved to Bondi. So basically she was going to

548
00:31:11,472 --> 00:31:13,992
Speaker 2: go where all the beautiful people were. You know, She's

549
00:31:14,032 --> 00:31:16,592
Speaker 2: going to go to Bondi and Bondi at the time,

550
00:31:16,632 --> 00:31:18,832
Speaker 2: she was a big reader of the women's magazines that

551
00:31:18,872 --> 00:31:20,832
Speaker 2: I work for actually, and so you know a lot

552
00:31:20,872 --> 00:31:23,231
Speaker 2: of the celebs lived in Bondai at that time. She

553
00:31:23,272 --> 00:31:27,312
Speaker 2: would have known that from her appetite for glamor magazines

554
00:31:27,752 --> 00:31:29,671
Speaker 2: and she was going to pop up in Bondi a

555
00:31:29,752 --> 00:31:33,992
Speaker 2: new persona Gem Southall, and the old Caroline would be dead.

556
00:31:34,992 --> 00:31:36,991
Speaker 1: Was Rachel's body where she said it was going to be?

557
00:31:37,512 --> 00:31:39,592
Speaker 2: Yes, it was exactly where she said it was. The

558
00:31:39,671 --> 00:31:42,512
Speaker 2: police were very shocked. I don't believe that they'd read

559
00:31:42,552 --> 00:31:47,191
Speaker 2: Caroline her rights because they weren't questioning her for anything

560
00:31:47,232 --> 00:31:50,792
Speaker 2: other than where the friend may be. And so to

561
00:31:50,792 --> 00:31:53,512
Speaker 2: have a suddenly admit to a murder dead, I killed her?

562
00:31:54,752 --> 00:31:57,872
Speaker 2: But what? Yeah, So they stopped the interview as soon

563
00:31:57,911 --> 00:32:00,272
Speaker 2: as she said that, but you know, where is she?

564
00:32:00,472 --> 00:32:04,872
Speaker 2: So they then dispatched forensic to Kilmore and sure enough,

565
00:32:04,872 --> 00:32:08,711
Speaker 2: there she was, exactly where Caroline said, buried in a

566
00:32:08,792 --> 00:32:12,152
Speaker 2: shallow grave in the what had been their pet cemetery.

567
00:32:13,392 --> 00:32:16,911
Speaker 1: It's obvious that this news is going to be devastating

568
00:32:16,911 --> 00:32:19,552
Speaker 1: to the Barbers, but can you talk us through how

569
00:32:19,552 --> 00:32:23,832
Speaker 1: Elizabeth speaks about finding that out after ten to eleven,

570
00:32:23,911 --> 00:32:27,832
Speaker 1: twelve days of searching everywhere for her, for holding out

571
00:32:27,872 --> 00:32:29,312
Speaker 1: hope and then getting that news.

572
00:32:30,032 --> 00:32:34,112
Speaker 2: They were absolutely devastated. They were devastated, but in her

573
00:32:34,152 --> 00:32:37,832
Speaker 2: heart she knew. But it's still devastating, you know. I

574
00:32:37,832 --> 00:32:40,832
Speaker 2: spoke to Daniel Morcambe's mother about exactly that. All that

575
00:32:40,911 --> 00:32:44,072
Speaker 2: time that he was missing and they were looking, even

576
00:32:44,112 --> 00:32:47,392
Speaker 2: though in her heart she knew he'd gone. Being told

577
00:32:47,431 --> 00:32:49,911
Speaker 2: he's dead or he's been found, it was very final,

578
00:32:50,272 --> 00:32:52,352
Speaker 2: and she said, you know, nothing prepares you for it,

579
00:32:52,712 --> 00:32:55,911
Speaker 2: and I always remember Mike's telling me this. They had

580
00:32:55,952 --> 00:32:57,991
Speaker 2: a pool that you could see from their land room window,

581
00:32:58,552 --> 00:33:02,232
Speaker 2: and he describes being out there mindlessly on this one day,

582
00:33:02,312 --> 00:33:05,951
Speaker 2: just mindlessly sweeping the pool with a creepy crawler, you know,

583
00:33:06,352 --> 00:33:10,112
Speaker 2: getting leaves out, just mindlessly fishing leaves out of the pool.

584
00:33:10,552 --> 00:33:12,552
Speaker 2: When the police arrived and there were two of them.

585
00:33:12,592 --> 00:33:15,712
Speaker 2: Now this is the first time they had seen these police,

586
00:33:16,232 --> 00:33:20,032
Speaker 2: because they'd been dealing with missing persons unit. Suddenly two

587
00:33:20,112 --> 00:33:23,832
Speaker 2: homicide detectives turn up. They come into the house and say,

588
00:33:24,032 --> 00:33:26,711
Speaker 2: where's your husband. He's outside, so they call him in.

589
00:33:27,072 --> 00:33:30,231
Speaker 2: We've got something to tell you. And they were not

590
00:33:30,312 --> 00:33:34,512
Speaker 2: expecting that. They were not expecting to be told that

591
00:33:35,032 --> 00:33:37,592
Speaker 2: Caroline had confessed to it. They were not expecting any

592
00:33:37,592 --> 00:33:41,832
Speaker 2: of it. It absolutely was a thunderbolt, and Mike describes

593
00:33:41,952 --> 00:33:45,032
Speaker 2: that just that feeling of that whole surreal description he

594
00:33:45,072 --> 00:33:47,912
Speaker 2: gave of that day, which I thought Elizabeth wrote very

595
00:33:47,992 --> 00:33:51,711
Speaker 2: very well in the book because she said it was

596
00:33:51,792 --> 00:33:56,112
Speaker 2: totally unreal. It's almost like watching someone else's story on

597
00:33:56,152 --> 00:33:59,512
Speaker 2: the TV. You're removed from it, You've disengaged. And that's

598
00:33:59,552 --> 00:34:00,592
Speaker 2: what Mike described.

599
00:34:15,592 --> 00:34:19,631
Speaker 1: Something I wasn't expecting was to see how quickly Mike

600
00:34:19,712 --> 00:34:23,192
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth were to kind of wish no ill will

601
00:34:23,592 --> 00:34:26,832
Speaker 1: towards Caroline's family, which is a very generous thing to

602
00:34:26,872 --> 00:34:29,312
Speaker 1: do in their grief.

603
00:34:30,232 --> 00:34:32,751
Speaker 2: They were in shock, though, and I think that's very

604
00:34:32,792 --> 00:34:35,911
Speaker 2: often the case. You know, I've covered these cases all

605
00:34:35,991 --> 00:34:40,392
Speaker 2: my career forty years, and you catch people in shock,

606
00:34:40,991 --> 00:34:42,551
Speaker 2: you know, when I'd go out when there'd been a

607
00:34:42,632 --> 00:34:44,872
Speaker 2: terrible tragedy, you know, and you go to see people

608
00:34:44,911 --> 00:34:49,432
Speaker 2: and they're just working on like robots, they're on autopilot.

609
00:34:49,551 --> 00:34:53,111
Speaker 2: They're not there, they're functioning on shock an adrenaline, or

610
00:34:53,152 --> 00:34:56,111
Speaker 2: you see them later in that journey and they're furious.

611
00:34:56,951 --> 00:35:00,312
Speaker 2: They're furious later on, and you know, there goes there's

612
00:35:00,352 --> 00:35:03,631
Speaker 2: five stages of grief. So you know, often where I've

613
00:35:03,632 --> 00:35:06,431
Speaker 2: done interviews where people are in shop later on, they

614
00:35:06,471 --> 00:35:09,991
Speaker 2: would say, well, I don't feel like that now, but

615
00:35:10,112 --> 00:35:12,591
Speaker 2: I felt like that then. I was in shock. But

616
00:35:12,872 --> 00:35:17,192
Speaker 2: remember Elizabeth wrote the book after the trial, so she'd

617
00:35:17,232 --> 00:35:20,431
Speaker 2: had quite a long time from the time Caroline was arrested,

618
00:35:20,951 --> 00:35:24,991
Speaker 2: through Rachel's funeral, through Christmas, through Mother's Day. They are

619
00:35:24,991 --> 00:35:27,672
Speaker 2: all those things that people have to deal with until

620
00:35:27,712 --> 00:35:30,031
Speaker 2: the trial and then she had the whole trial. They

621
00:35:30,072 --> 00:35:33,832
Speaker 2: both were very giving, and I think Elizabeth's gone very

622
00:35:33,872 --> 00:35:37,991
Speaker 2: strong faith, and I think her religious beliefs and her

623
00:35:38,072 --> 00:35:40,511
Speaker 2: belief in God was something she clung to in that

624
00:35:40,632 --> 00:35:44,232
Speaker 2: time and does not say she wasn't angry, you know,

625
00:35:44,312 --> 00:35:47,232
Speaker 2: she said that to me once. I am angry. I'm

626
00:35:47,272 --> 00:35:50,511
Speaker 2: really angry, but I do forgive, she said to me.

627
00:35:50,592 --> 00:35:53,431
Speaker 2: What's what she was very angry about was that the

628
00:35:53,431 --> 00:35:56,151
Speaker 2: clues were there, the painting, the room black, not coming

629
00:35:56,192 --> 00:35:58,832
Speaker 2: out of your room. If only she'd have had the

630
00:35:58,832 --> 00:36:02,431
Speaker 2: help she was crying out for. But those writings there

631
00:36:02,431 --> 00:36:07,471
Speaker 2: were secret, so no one saw those writings until the

632
00:36:07,511 --> 00:36:10,031
Speaker 2: police went that day. I think if people had been

633
00:36:10,072 --> 00:36:13,111
Speaker 2: aware of those writings, something may have happened. But she

634
00:36:13,192 --> 00:36:17,551
Speaker 2: was actually seeing someone, Carolina. Her father had organized for

635
00:36:17,672 --> 00:36:21,231
Speaker 2: her to see a psychologist. She was actually seeing someone,

636
00:36:21,312 --> 00:36:24,431
Speaker 2: and that doctor came to the court to give evidence

637
00:36:24,551 --> 00:36:29,232
Speaker 2: in the sentencing, you know, talking about her sort of fixation.

638
00:36:29,832 --> 00:36:33,751
Speaker 2: When you strangle someone, it's very very very personal and

639
00:36:34,431 --> 00:36:38,112
Speaker 2: very upclose. And it's a very unusual case because women

640
00:36:38,192 --> 00:36:42,392
Speaker 2: rarely kill outside their own families. Usually women will kill

641
00:36:42,991 --> 00:36:46,591
Speaker 2: in a domestic violence situation, or they will kill their

642
00:36:46,632 --> 00:36:49,872
Speaker 2: children because they're depressed, but they tend to kill within

643
00:36:49,911 --> 00:36:53,272
Speaker 2: the families, and they don't tend to focus on someone

644
00:36:53,352 --> 00:36:57,232
Speaker 2: outside the family. And not for five years. That plan

645
00:36:57,352 --> 00:37:01,192
Speaker 2: grew bigger and more elaborate and more refined with every

646
00:37:01,232 --> 00:37:03,872
Speaker 2: passing year. She had it off to a tea and

647
00:37:03,911 --> 00:37:05,712
Speaker 2: she literally checked that list.

648
00:37:07,112 --> 00:37:11,512
Speaker 1: Was Caroline's doctor able to give any evidence of mental

649
00:37:11,551 --> 00:37:14,191
Speaker 1: impairment or anything along those lines in the case.

650
00:37:14,872 --> 00:37:17,631
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think the general feeling was

651
00:37:18,112 --> 00:37:22,631
Speaker 2: she was a depressive person. He felt she had potentially

652
00:37:22,792 --> 00:37:26,272
Speaker 2: a borderline personality disorder, but lots of people have that

653
00:37:26,312 --> 00:37:29,432
Speaker 2: and don't kill you know, it doesn't make you a killer.

654
00:37:29,712 --> 00:37:33,431
Speaker 2: As she had the epilepsy, they were exploring, they were

655
00:37:33,632 --> 00:37:36,511
Speaker 2: organizing scans and things on her brain. They were very

656
00:37:36,511 --> 00:37:41,272
Speaker 2: interested in whether there was some other underlying neurological disorder

657
00:37:41,352 --> 00:37:44,471
Speaker 2: that was being investigated at the time she was arrested,

658
00:37:44,872 --> 00:37:48,111
Speaker 2: so they didn't have any tests to prove that. But

659
00:37:49,152 --> 00:37:52,872
Speaker 2: Dr Crudsen visited her in jail over quite a period

660
00:37:52,951 --> 00:37:56,632
Speaker 2: of time, and it's almost as though, and this is

661
00:37:56,752 --> 00:37:59,632
Speaker 2: just my take, I'm not a psychological expert. I'm a journalist.

662
00:37:59,712 --> 00:38:05,031
Speaker 2: But it's almost like in killing Rachel, she obliterated herself.

663
00:38:06,352 --> 00:38:11,232
Speaker 2: It's like killing that perfection so she could take it.

664
00:38:11,232 --> 00:38:15,072
Speaker 2: It was like a power. And what was really odd.

665
00:38:15,112 --> 00:38:17,991
Speaker 2: By the time she came to court to be sentenced,

666
00:38:18,312 --> 00:38:22,352
Speaker 2: I was really shocked because she described how jem south All,

667
00:38:22,431 --> 00:38:26,511
Speaker 2: her fantasy alter ego, what her new persona would look like.

668
00:38:26,712 --> 00:38:28,792
Speaker 2: She was going to be a cross between Katie Holmes,

669
00:38:29,112 --> 00:38:32,352
Speaker 2: Rachel Barber, Claire Danes. She was going to be amazing,

670
00:38:32,752 --> 00:38:34,352
Speaker 2: she was going to be like a fairy. She was

671
00:38:34,352 --> 00:38:36,552
Speaker 2: going to be skinny, she was going to be pretty

672
00:38:36,911 --> 00:38:40,031
Speaker 2: then a dyre hair. By the time she came to court,

673
00:38:40,072 --> 00:38:44,111
Speaker 2: that's exactly what she looked like. Really, I was absolutely

674
00:38:44,112 --> 00:38:46,631
Speaker 2: blown away when they brought her up from their cells

675
00:38:46,672 --> 00:38:51,392
Speaker 2: into the dock to be sentenced. This tiny, frail, little

676
00:38:51,872 --> 00:38:55,712
Speaker 2: fairy like figure, fragile little woman that looked years younger

677
00:38:55,752 --> 00:38:58,911
Speaker 2: than twenty years or however old she was. When she

678
00:38:58,991 --> 00:39:02,832
Speaker 2: was sentenced, she looked like the picture She sketched a

679
00:39:02,832 --> 00:39:05,711
Speaker 2: picture of jem Southall, and she looked exactly like it.

680
00:39:06,792 --> 00:39:09,231
Speaker 2: She drew this sort of sketch of what she wanted

681
00:39:09,272 --> 00:39:13,672
Speaker 2: to look like. No pimples, nice wavy, fair hair, skinny,

682
00:39:13,832 --> 00:39:16,792
Speaker 2: she would have been a size eight by then. She

683
00:39:16,951 --> 00:39:19,711
Speaker 2: totally reinvented herself through Rachel Barbera's death.

684
00:39:20,551 --> 00:39:23,071
Speaker 1: You mentioned that in that initial conversation with police, she

685
00:39:23,152 --> 00:39:26,951
Speaker 1: admits to murder, but then she kind of put in

686
00:39:26,991 --> 00:39:29,711
Speaker 1: a non guilty plea. She goes to ground, she doesn't

687
00:39:29,752 --> 00:39:33,472
Speaker 1: say anything, and then just before the trial, she changes

688
00:39:33,511 --> 00:39:35,591
Speaker 1: her tune and says she's guilty, doesn't she.

689
00:39:36,072 --> 00:39:38,711
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it doesn't become a trial, it becomes a plea.

690
00:39:39,352 --> 00:39:41,751
Speaker 2: So that Barber's they were all geared up for a trial,

691
00:39:41,792 --> 00:39:45,031
Speaker 2: which was traumatic in itself, bracing itself for a trial

692
00:39:45,031 --> 00:39:47,832
Speaker 2: where you've got to give evidence, and we relived. All

693
00:39:47,911 --> 00:39:51,352
Speaker 2: trials are terrible things for the surviving family members of

694
00:39:51,431 --> 00:39:54,591
Speaker 2: homicide victims. So having a change of her plea at

695
00:39:54,592 --> 00:39:57,232
Speaker 2: the last minute was a relief. I don't know whether

696
00:39:57,272 --> 00:39:59,951
Speaker 2: there might have been a plan on ho who's speculating

697
00:40:00,592 --> 00:40:04,712
Speaker 2: whether she would have pleaded some kind of mental impairment maybe,

698
00:40:05,192 --> 00:40:08,192
Speaker 2: But the fact was she knew exactly what she was doing.

699
00:40:08,232 --> 00:40:10,752
Speaker 2: And that's the difference, isn't it. Often people are depressed,

700
00:40:11,392 --> 00:40:15,352
Speaker 2: but do they know what they're doing is wrong? You know?

701
00:40:15,392 --> 00:40:17,511
Speaker 2: I look at Arthur Freeman. He's an example. He threw

702
00:40:17,551 --> 00:40:19,792
Speaker 2: his little girl, Darcy Freeman, off the west Gate Bridge,

703
00:40:19,991 --> 00:40:21,792
Speaker 2: and that was a big question. Was he bad or

704
00:40:21,832 --> 00:40:24,392
Speaker 2: was he mad? Well, he was bad. He knew exactly

705
00:40:24,471 --> 00:40:27,192
Speaker 2: what he was doing. He wasn't mad, he wasn't so

706
00:40:27,272 --> 00:40:29,872
Speaker 2: impaired that he knew he shouldn't kill his daughter and

707
00:40:29,872 --> 00:40:32,312
Speaker 2: throw her off the escape bridge. And that was the

708
00:40:32,312 --> 00:40:34,671
Speaker 2: same with Caroline. She knew exactly what she was doing.

709
00:40:34,872 --> 00:40:37,511
Speaker 2: She thought it over and mulled over it. I think

710
00:40:37,551 --> 00:40:41,031
Speaker 2: as well, the fantasy of the murder takes root in

711
00:40:41,031 --> 00:40:43,352
Speaker 2: your mind, and I think in her case it did.

712
00:40:43,672 --> 00:40:46,991
Speaker 2: The fantasy of being someone else was what was driving it.

713
00:40:47,272 --> 00:40:51,272
Speaker 2: She hated herself, she hated her life, very unhappy. I'll

714
00:40:51,312 --> 00:40:53,151
Speaker 2: have that girl's life and I'll be her, and then

715
00:40:53,192 --> 00:40:56,511
Speaker 2: my life will be perfect. I will be perfect, And

716
00:40:56,592 --> 00:41:00,512
Speaker 2: I think that's what drove that. And in some ways

717
00:41:00,551 --> 00:41:05,192
Speaker 2: it worked because courtesy of the prison food and all

718
00:41:05,232 --> 00:41:08,032
Speaker 2: the pressures off, she does have to angst over it anymore.

719
00:41:08,072 --> 00:41:12,152
Speaker 2: It's done. But once the fantasy's carried out, there's a

720
00:41:12,192 --> 00:41:15,191
Speaker 2: tip over. So the fantasy was killing Rachel, so she did.

721
00:41:15,752 --> 00:41:19,031
Speaker 2: Then it fell apart. Now she's got a body in

722
00:41:19,112 --> 00:41:22,431
Speaker 2: her wardrobe. We's got a body in a bathroom, which

723
00:41:22,431 --> 00:41:25,312
Speaker 2: she then says in her writing. She then took to

724
00:41:25,352 --> 00:41:27,991
Speaker 2: the wardrobe and put Rachel's body in the wardrobe. And

725
00:41:28,072 --> 00:41:32,071
Speaker 2: this was a stinking hot February week leading up to

726
00:41:32,072 --> 00:41:36,071
Speaker 2: the Grand Prix, imagine in the heat, which is why

727
00:41:36,112 --> 00:41:38,512
Speaker 2: she'd written get carpet cleaner. So it was a really

728
00:41:38,632 --> 00:41:43,511
Speaker 2: thought about, premeditated, callous murder. But I think in some

729
00:41:43,551 --> 00:41:47,032
Speaker 2: ways that she was completely obsessed with her because amongst

730
00:41:47,072 --> 00:41:50,832
Speaker 2: the writings they found, she'd clearly been stalking Rachel. She

731
00:41:50,991 --> 00:41:55,232
Speaker 2: noted Rachel has changed her hair, different hair color, Rachel

732
00:41:55,272 --> 00:42:00,312
Speaker 2: has a boyfriend, Rachel's a dance score, Rachel catches tramp.

733
00:42:00,511 --> 00:42:04,272
Speaker 2: She knew all her movements, and she had been stalking her.

734
00:42:04,712 --> 00:42:07,911
Speaker 2: I think that's what I do find interesting. I took

735
00:42:07,911 --> 00:42:14,112
Speaker 2: her letters to Professor Michelle Pathay. Michelle Pathay was working

736
00:42:14,112 --> 00:42:18,431
Speaker 2: with Paul Mullen. Professor Paul Mullen, they're forensic psychiatrists. They

737
00:42:18,551 --> 00:42:22,471
Speaker 2: set up the world's first stalking center in Melbourne at

738
00:42:22,471 --> 00:42:25,031
Speaker 2: that time in the early nineties, and I knew Michelle

739
00:42:25,152 --> 00:42:28,192
Speaker 2: quite well. I would often go there doing stalking stories.

740
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:30,951
Speaker 2: I took all Caroline's letters to show them. What do

741
00:42:30,991 --> 00:42:33,111
Speaker 2: you make of these letters? And they said what do

742
00:42:33,192 --> 00:42:35,471
Speaker 2: you think? I said, well, I think it's like she

743
00:42:35,632 --> 00:42:38,272
Speaker 2: is becoming her, isn't she. The fantasies got bigger and

744
00:42:38,272 --> 00:42:40,832
Speaker 2: bigger and bigger. But then she's carried it out and

745
00:42:40,872 --> 00:42:44,312
Speaker 2: the actual murder is now real. The fantasy's gone. She

746
00:42:44,392 --> 00:42:48,752
Speaker 2: really did kill someone and the reality is shocking. So

747
00:42:48,872 --> 00:42:50,352
Speaker 2: then she's gone a panic. How am I going to

748
00:42:50,352 --> 00:42:52,352
Speaker 2: get rid of her? Where's she going to go? The

749
00:42:52,392 --> 00:42:56,112
Speaker 2: police called every courier and van company, higher company in

750
00:42:56,232 --> 00:43:00,232
Speaker 2: Victoria and even into New South Wales. No one had

751
00:43:00,272 --> 00:43:03,352
Speaker 2: sent her courier to that home, to that apartment in

752
00:43:03,392 --> 00:43:07,671
Speaker 2: Paran on those days after the murder. No one. So

753
00:43:07,911 --> 00:43:10,911
Speaker 2: how did she get that body? How does she get

754
00:43:10,991 --> 00:43:15,031
Speaker 2: Rachel's body from that apartment in Paran? To this day

755
00:43:15,352 --> 00:43:19,152
Speaker 2: it bugs me, but she really had a fixation with Rachel.

756
00:43:19,192 --> 00:43:23,192
Speaker 2: And Michelle Pathey looking through her notes and her own writings,

757
00:43:23,232 --> 00:43:26,111
Speaker 2: so she said, this is a typical case of stalk confusion,

758
00:43:27,072 --> 00:43:31,392
Speaker 2: and it's where the stalker becomes so infatuated and obsessed

759
00:43:31,431 --> 00:43:35,712
Speaker 2: with the object that they're fixed on that they almost

760
00:43:36,031 --> 00:43:39,711
Speaker 2: fuse with them, so they become them. You know, it's

761
00:43:39,712 --> 00:43:43,152
Speaker 2: a fusion. I did a case before this in Melbourne

762
00:43:43,832 --> 00:43:47,672
Speaker 2: where a guy had stalked his ex wife. He plucked

763
00:43:47,712 --> 00:43:50,272
Speaker 2: his eyebrows, he dyed his hair, he tried to look

764
00:43:50,392 --> 00:43:53,632
Speaker 2: like her, he wanted to be her. It's like ownership

765
00:43:54,192 --> 00:43:57,352
Speaker 2: and it was stalk confusion. John Lennon stalker did it?

766
00:43:57,712 --> 00:44:02,232
Speaker 2: Mark Chapman, He stalked John Lennon in prison after his

767
00:44:02,352 --> 00:44:04,991
Speaker 2: arrest for killing John Lennon. He started to look like

768
00:44:05,072 --> 00:44:07,631
Speaker 2: John Lennon. And he even married a Japanese wife that

769
00:44:07,632 --> 00:44:11,392
Speaker 2: looked like Yoko. That was classic stalk confusion.

770
00:44:12,792 --> 00:44:16,192
Speaker 1: Well, Caroline ended up receiving a sentence of twenty years,

771
00:44:16,431 --> 00:44:19,511
Speaker 1: with an on parole of fourteen years. She was released

772
00:44:19,951 --> 00:44:23,552
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. Have we seen any signs of remorse

773
00:44:23,712 --> 00:44:26,712
Speaker 1: from her through any of the processes.

774
00:44:28,112 --> 00:44:31,911
Speaker 2: No, I don't believe so. I don't believe so. Her

775
00:44:31,951 --> 00:44:36,312
Speaker 2: guilty plea I suppose by pleading guilty is an acknowledgment

776
00:44:36,352 --> 00:44:41,312
Speaker 2: of the wrongdoing, so she's acknowledged that. I didn't see any,

777
00:44:41,352 --> 00:44:45,992
Speaker 2: though I think her remorse was for herself. I certainly

778
00:44:46,031 --> 00:44:48,192
Speaker 2: didn't see any. She became almost a bit of a

779
00:44:48,232 --> 00:44:51,551
Speaker 2: celebrity in prison too, which was quite interesting. You know,

780
00:44:51,672 --> 00:44:54,952
Speaker 2: she was the person who killed Rachel Barber. In some ways,

781
00:44:54,951 --> 00:44:57,471
Speaker 2: she became quite a celebrity inmates.

782
00:44:58,352 --> 00:45:01,071
Speaker 1: A celebrity to who, the public or the inmates.

783
00:45:01,392 --> 00:45:05,231
Speaker 2: The inmates, why, well, she's a pillar. There's a sort

784
00:45:05,232 --> 00:45:08,752
Speaker 2: of pecking order of bat in those places. And she

785
00:45:08,951 --> 00:45:10,631
Speaker 2: was the girl who was all over the paper for

786
00:45:10,712 --> 00:45:14,031
Speaker 2: killing Rachel Barber. In a lot of ways, through Rachel's death,

787
00:45:14,352 --> 00:45:18,312
Speaker 2: she got recognition that she'd not had. She got validation,

788
00:45:18,832 --> 00:45:22,792
Speaker 2: albeit from the wrong places, but she got recognition, validation,

789
00:45:22,991 --> 00:45:27,272
Speaker 2: and she was attractive. She reinvented herself. She was a

790
00:45:27,392 --> 00:45:30,832
Speaker 2: whole other person through that little girl's death.

791
00:45:32,072 --> 00:45:34,992
Speaker 1: How did the Barbers feel upon her release.

792
00:45:36,031 --> 00:45:38,272
Speaker 2: I've moved away now, so I'm not in Victoria. I

793
00:45:38,272 --> 00:45:41,832
Speaker 2: haven't spoken to them in quite a few years, but

794
00:45:42,112 --> 00:45:44,631
Speaker 2: I did see Elizabeth on the TV, and I know

795
00:45:44,752 --> 00:45:47,991
Speaker 2: that she was very concerned. Victims of homicide could go

796
00:45:48,031 --> 00:45:51,152
Speaker 2: on the register, which means that they're allowed to be

797
00:45:51,232 --> 00:45:54,071
Speaker 2: notified if that offender is moved within the system to

798
00:45:54,112 --> 00:45:57,512
Speaker 2: a different facility, they get to know. If they're released

799
00:45:57,551 --> 00:45:59,631
Speaker 2: on parole, they have a say in the parole hearing,

800
00:45:59,672 --> 00:46:01,911
Speaker 2: so it gives you those benefits. The downside of that

801
00:46:02,072 --> 00:46:05,151
Speaker 2: is you're not allowed to know where they've gone once

802
00:46:05,192 --> 00:46:09,631
Speaker 2: they're released. That information is confidential. And I think she

803
00:46:09,752 --> 00:46:15,151
Speaker 2: was genuinely fearful. I believe Elizabeth was genuinely fearful. I

804
00:46:15,192 --> 00:46:19,152
Speaker 2: saw her interview on the TV, and she looked genuinely scared.

805
00:46:19,872 --> 00:46:22,552
Speaker 2: And I think, when the unthinkable has happened in your life,

806
00:46:22,592 --> 00:46:27,592
Speaker 2: once anything can happen, they'd already did for their family.

807
00:46:28,592 --> 00:46:31,712
Speaker 1: Is there anything that stays with you from this case?

808
00:46:31,752 --> 00:46:32,511
Speaker 2: Obviously it's a.

809
00:46:32,551 --> 00:46:38,592
Speaker 1: Very unique and complex crime, but there's also some really

810
00:46:39,031 --> 00:46:43,952
Speaker 1: common human experiences that are explored, you know, jealousy, low self, worse.

811
00:46:44,352 --> 00:46:46,431
Speaker 1: It's quite a hard one to unpack.

812
00:46:48,072 --> 00:46:50,511
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think the sadness for me when

813
00:46:50,551 --> 00:46:55,872
Speaker 2: it was all over was the utter destruction to two families. Now,

814
00:46:55,872 --> 00:46:58,792
Speaker 2: I know that won't make me popular saying that, but

815
00:46:58,951 --> 00:47:02,711
Speaker 2: there are more victims of the crime than people recognize.

816
00:47:03,232 --> 00:47:06,151
Speaker 2: And I remember going to court once and I think

817
00:47:06,431 --> 00:47:12,112
Speaker 2: before Caroline sentencing, her father went over to Elizabeth and commiserated.

818
00:47:12,471 --> 00:47:15,631
Speaker 2: He almost apologized for his daughter that they were there

819
00:47:15,672 --> 00:47:19,352
Speaker 2: at all. And it really stuck with me because I thought, yeah,

820
00:47:19,392 --> 00:47:22,471
Speaker 2: there's so many more victims. What happened to Caroline's two

821
00:47:22,511 --> 00:47:24,711
Speaker 2: younger sisters, What would that have been like for them?

822
00:47:25,072 --> 00:47:27,032
Speaker 2: I know what it was like for the Barbers girls.

823
00:47:27,031 --> 00:47:30,752
Speaker 2: It was horrific. It was horrific, you know. I remember

824
00:47:31,031 --> 00:47:33,792
Speaker 2: Michael Elizabeth telling me how the day after they'd gone

825
00:47:33,792 --> 00:47:36,392
Speaker 2: to the service station to get the paper, there it

826
00:47:36,471 --> 00:47:39,191
Speaker 2: was all over the front page, and it's like, it's

827
00:47:39,232 --> 00:47:43,152
Speaker 2: not really happening. I know, one survivor of a terrible

828
00:47:43,232 --> 00:47:45,232
Speaker 2: murder attempt said he used to get up in the

829
00:47:45,312 --> 00:47:48,151
Speaker 2: night and google himself in the middle of the night

830
00:47:48,232 --> 00:47:50,392
Speaker 2: and all these cuttings would come up and sink, that

831
00:47:50,511 --> 00:47:53,631
Speaker 2: really was me. That is me, they're talking about me.

832
00:47:53,991 --> 00:47:56,712
Speaker 2: You know, that sort of disbelief can this happen? I

833
00:47:56,712 --> 00:47:59,672
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing for me was the utter waste,

834
00:48:00,312 --> 00:48:04,872
Speaker 2: the waste of two girls lives, total wasts. Rachel had

835
00:48:04,951 --> 00:48:08,111
Speaker 2: so much promise. I can't imagine what she would have done.

836
00:48:08,152 --> 00:48:10,752
Speaker 2: I think it would have been big things. But Caroline,

837
00:48:10,752 --> 00:48:13,111
Speaker 2: if she'd have had help, maybe if it had been

838
00:48:13,112 --> 00:48:15,352
Speaker 2: a week later and she'd had those scans and those

839
00:48:15,392 --> 00:48:20,352
Speaker 2: tests and they'd have found some reason. She appealed that sentence.

840
00:48:20,471 --> 00:48:22,991
Speaker 2: You know, she appealed after she was convicted and center

841
00:48:23,152 --> 00:48:26,951
Speaker 2: she lodged an appeal to say the sentence was excessively harsh. Now,

842
00:48:26,951 --> 00:48:31,551
Speaker 2: that is not the behavior of a remorseful person. She

843
00:48:31,672 --> 00:48:34,111
Speaker 2: dropped it, you know that it didn't go anywhere, But

844
00:48:34,152 --> 00:48:37,112
Speaker 2: the fact is that she considered it. Maybe that was

845
00:48:37,152 --> 00:48:40,471
Speaker 2: acting on advice. She's only a young girl. Still, she

846
00:48:40,511 --> 00:48:43,592
Speaker 2: was a very young girl. Maybe that was the advice

847
00:48:43,632 --> 00:48:46,631
Speaker 2: she was given. But I think there was genuine fear

848
00:48:46,672 --> 00:48:49,471
Speaker 2: from the family. Ashley Rose looked very like Rachel, the

849
00:48:49,511 --> 00:48:53,031
Speaker 2: younger sister, and I think there was some fear there.

850
00:48:53,951 --> 00:48:55,672
Speaker 2: But I remember going to their house one of the

851
00:48:55,672 --> 00:48:57,872
Speaker 2: first interviews I did. I went to the barber's home

852
00:48:58,112 --> 00:49:00,392
Speaker 2: and they had photographs of Rachel all over the walls

853
00:49:00,431 --> 00:49:03,352
Speaker 2: and a big frame photo. It was a big frame,

854
00:49:04,112 --> 00:49:08,112
Speaker 2: glass display cabinet with the dress Rachel had worn. Elizabeth

855
00:49:08,152 --> 00:49:11,472
Speaker 2: saw me looking at it, and that's often commonly seen

856
00:49:11,951 --> 00:49:15,152
Speaker 2: when children have been murdered. You know, families keep medals

857
00:49:15,192 --> 00:49:18,352
Speaker 2: and sporting medals and this stuff everywhere, and it's almost

858
00:49:18,352 --> 00:49:20,911
Speaker 2: becomes a shrine. But she said, no, no, no, it

859
00:49:20,951 --> 00:49:24,151
Speaker 2: was always like that. We always had things like that.

860
00:49:24,192 --> 00:49:27,392
Speaker 2: She was always going to be a star, and I

861
00:49:27,471 --> 00:49:29,112
Speaker 2: believe she was always going to be a star, and

862
00:49:29,152 --> 00:49:31,551
Speaker 2: I think as the years have gone on, I often

863
00:49:31,592 --> 00:49:33,471
Speaker 2: think about her. Because when I was asked to do

864
00:49:33,551 --> 00:49:36,951
Speaker 2: the book, I had a reservations about doing it, and

865
00:49:37,031 --> 00:49:39,111
Speaker 2: I originally said I didn't think I could do it,

866
00:49:39,431 --> 00:49:41,872
Speaker 2: and I gave them someone else's name. And the reason

867
00:49:41,911 --> 00:49:44,991
Speaker 2: I hesitated was because I was the mother of a

868
00:49:44,991 --> 00:49:48,991
Speaker 2: fifteen year old with leukemia, and I just thought, I

869
00:49:49,031 --> 00:49:51,911
Speaker 2: don't know that I can do this tragic story. I

870
00:49:51,951 --> 00:49:54,392
Speaker 2: would be working with a mother of a murdered fifteen

871
00:49:54,471 --> 00:49:58,152
Speaker 2: year old and my son may not survive this illness.

872
00:49:58,431 --> 00:50:03,111
Speaker 2: He's fifteen, she's almost living my worst nightmare already, and

873
00:50:03,152 --> 00:50:05,911
Speaker 2: I don't know that I can do this. And I

874
00:50:05,911 --> 00:50:08,591
Speaker 2: did tell that, and she said, no, I want you

875
00:50:08,632 --> 00:50:11,471
Speaker 2: to do the book because you're a mother and you

876
00:50:11,592 --> 00:50:14,991
Speaker 2: understand that pain. You know you're grieving now. I was

877
00:50:15,031 --> 00:50:17,792
Speaker 2: grieving for a living child who I thought might not

878
00:50:17,872 --> 00:50:21,231
Speaker 2: make it. So she said, you know you're older, You've

879
00:50:21,232 --> 00:50:22,911
Speaker 2: got children, and you get it.

880
00:50:28,112 --> 00:50:30,632
Speaker 1: Thanks to Megan for assisting us to tell this story.

881
00:50:31,312 --> 00:50:34,792
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is Amma mea podcast hosted and produced

882
00:50:34,792 --> 00:50:38,352
Speaker 1: by me, Jemma Bath, Tarlie Blackman and Crystal Cornielsen, with

883
00:50:38,431 --> 00:50:41,752
Speaker 1: audio design by Scott's Stronik. Thanks so much for listening.

884
00:50:42,072 --> 00:50:44,951
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation