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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out Loud What women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Friday, the twenty fifth of July. I'm Holly Wayne Wright.

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Speaker 1: I'm Mia Friedman, and the universe clearly wants me to

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Speaker 1: shut up because I just cannot get my voice back.

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Speaker 1: If any out louders have any tips for a returning voice,

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Speaker 1: please send them.

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Speaker 2: No, it doesn't hurt, No, just sounds bad.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens and I've been sick for two and

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Speaker 3: a half weeks and I just cannot like sick yourself.

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Speaker 3: I just feel so congested and uncomfortable and like sneezy

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Speaker 3: and running nose and everything. It's so annoying.

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Speaker 2: It's boring you sick pictures. I'm sitting with you, and

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Speaker 2: here is what we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: There's now a machine that can make you more charismatic

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Speaker 1: in just a few minutes. But you don't want to

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Speaker 1: spend too long in their hollywayen right, because too much

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Speaker 1: charisma can actually make your life harder. And I'm going

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Speaker 1: to explain why that.

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Speaker 2: Is also my rite of reply on some slanderous comments

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Speaker 2: made by my co host while I was away about

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Speaker 2: a certain book called The Saltpath, and also some actually

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Speaker 2: very useful recommendations.

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Speaker 3: For your weekend, plus the great feminist exhaustion, and Helen

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Speaker 3: Peterson has put words around what so many of us

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Speaker 3: are feeling.

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, men are getting

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Speaker 1: anti wrinkle injections injected into their scrotums and it's called scrotox.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any questions?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Isn't wrinkles the point?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: Aren't wrinkles a feature not a bug of a scrotum?

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Speaker 3: I thought a scrotum was meant to be a bit

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Speaker 3: drinkly like, But.

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Speaker 2: An aging scrotum sinks like gets longer, gets more, does

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Speaker 2: it does? So that's what men often.

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Speaker 1: Stop flexing that you've never seen one, Jess.

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Speaker 2: You know how women we've only recently discovered that things

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Speaker 2: happen down there as we get older, but men have

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Speaker 2: long felt insecure about what will happen to their scrotim

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Speaker 2: as they age.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, this is why this is why nature gave

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Speaker 3: us pubic hair, because we shouldn't be looking too close.

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Speaker 3: We shouldn't be examining the genitals. And when you remove

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Speaker 3: the pubic hair, what you find is you start stressing

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Speaker 3: over your innkly scrotum like.

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Speaker 2: A hairless cat. Yes, almost always look.

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Speaker 1: The question that I'd like to know is when was

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Speaker 1: the last time you took a good long look at

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Speaker 1: a scrotum up close? And how to think about how

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Speaker 1: it could be improved. Esthetically speaking, I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: you a little bit of thinking music.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever liked, really say one.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, let me save you from more pondracs

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Speaker 1: to discuss. Yeah, aren't you glad you're listening to this show?

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Speaker 3: Because did you know? According to all the medical shows

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Speaker 3: I've watched, one of the most painful things a man

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Speaker 3: can experience his testicular torsion. I think twisted testicle. When

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Speaker 3: they twist and if you don't untwist them, then you

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Speaker 3: get some issues. You've got to go in get them

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Speaker 3: you twisted out.

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Speaker 1: How you can either lose the testicle or die. I

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Speaker 1: forget which one. Don't follow us for medical advice. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed the Blue Wiggle Anthony once and he told a

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Speaker 1: very funny story about waking up with a twisted testicle

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Speaker 1: and having to go to hospital because you've got a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of time called. He called one of the

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Speaker 1: other wiggles, but he called someone and they said, get

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Speaker 1: to a hospital. If they don't fix this within a

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Speaker 1: certain small window. Testicle gone blue wiggle had a blue testicle.

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Speaker 1: He did, and he talks about going in there and

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Speaker 1: being examined and someone peering up from between his legs going,

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Speaker 1: hang on, wait, aren't you the blue wiggle. So the

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Speaker 1: reason that men are doing it is to smooth wrinkles,

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Speaker 1: reduce sweat and as you say, Holly, help testicles hang lowa,

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Speaker 1: giving the illusion of size. Apparently, what this sounds like.

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Speaker 2: A young man's game.

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Speaker 3: Wouldn't the bigger the scrotum, the smaller the penis looks,

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Speaker 3: wouldn't you preferred? That's interesting? The smaller scrotum as like

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Speaker 3: a comparison.

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Speaker 1: Well, someone who's done it is a guy called Zach Wickham.

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Speaker 1: He's a reality star on a show called The Valley,

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Speaker 1: and he spoke to People magazine recently and he said

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Speaker 1: that he got it because apparently it feels really good

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Speaker 1: during sex, and it just looks esthetically better and he said,

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Speaker 1: you know how balls go up and down. I was

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Speaker 1: just like, you know what, Let's see what happens when

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Speaker 1: they stay down. And he said, my balls definitely hung

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Speaker 1: at their lowest for a couple of months until it

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Speaker 1: wore off. So I would say it was aesthetically nice,

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Speaker 1: and they said it could feel better during sex, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I really noticed that. And then

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Speaker 1: he said, my boyfriend said they just look normal though,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of disappointing.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I wonder if it hurts, would hurt the injection?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it started around twenty nineteen that people have been

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Speaker 1: asking for it, but it remains niche with no official

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Speaker 1: data available, but side effects and risks very important, typical

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Speaker 1: issues around any injection site bruising, swelling, randomness. Plus there's

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Speaker 1: also a theoretical risk of sperm impacting temp regulation disruption.

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Speaker 1: Oh and deeper injections carry other risks. But all I

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Speaker 1: can think of is, you know how someone once said,

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Speaker 1: when you get a bit older and you're putting eyeshadow

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Speaker 1: on your lid, it's a bit like trying to put

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Speaker 1: eye shadow on a scrotum. Have you noticed that?

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Speaker 3: Apparently we have reached the great feminist exhaustion, And as

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Speaker 3: soon as I read that headline, I thought vibe. And

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Speaker 3: Helen Peterson published an article on substack last week all

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Speaker 3: about how feminism has exhausted us in a myriad of ways. Firstly,

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Speaker 3: its meaning has been exhausted. It's fractured and confused. It's

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Speaker 3: been appropriated by pop culture and politics. But it's also

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Speaker 3: left women exhausted, particularly the twenty tens. So you'll lean

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Speaker 3: in feminism where we were told we were meant to

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Speaker 3: work harder than men while caring for kids and elderly parents,

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Speaker 3: and it's led to this kind of feminist dystopia. And

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Speaker 3: she writes about how so many of the books and

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Speaker 3: TV shows and movies we consume are actually about this

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Speaker 3: feminist dystopia, like Night Bitch for example, or Girls like

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Speaker 3: those shows are actually about the sort of dissatisfaction that

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Speaker 3: a lot of women are feeling. Peterson has divided exhausted

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Speaker 3: feminism into four categories, and I want to know if

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Speaker 3: you relate to any slash all of them. First category,

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Speaker 3: she calls it, fuck it, Let's fight. Some women are

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Speaker 3: exhausted by the anger and division. They feel like they're

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Speaker 3: about to get kicked out by more radical feminists than

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Speaker 3: them who think that pissing people off is actually the point.

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Speaker 3: Do you really?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yes, hard relate. I call them the feminist police. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel the sheriffs of feminism and they drive me nuts.

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Speaker 3: Feminism and social movements have always needed the agitators and

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Speaker 3: always needed the loud voices and the people who say

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Speaker 3: on popular things. But I think that this infighting has

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Speaker 3: made some women particularly tired. Second group status quo buyer's remorse.

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Speaker 3: So Peterson's theory is that this is where a lot

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Speaker 3: of Gen x's and millennials have gone. Right, we did

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Speaker 3: all the things we were meant to and were left

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Speaker 3: wondering where the happiness is. So this is the group

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Speaker 3: that did the degree, not you two, got the job,

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Speaker 3: maybe got married not Holly, maybe had kids. Whatever, they

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Speaker 3: did what they were supposed to, and they've got to

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Speaker 3: the end of it and gone. I feel unfulfilled. I

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Speaker 3: am struck by the domestic inequality within my marriage, and

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Speaker 3: they're resentful about the inequalities that still exist. Does anyone

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Speaker 3: relate to that one?

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's true, but I have a broader

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Speaker 2: problem with all of this, that none of that is

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Speaker 2: feminism's fault.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we'll go to number three and then I will

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Speaker 3: allow you a right of reply. Holly Group three, Mum,

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Speaker 3: that sucks. I don't want your life. So this is

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Speaker 3: Gen Z and Gen Alpha and they're like, mum, you

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Speaker 3: don't look happy. Fuck that they think if feminism made

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Speaker 3: their elders so cranky, then they want something different.

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Speaker 2: But do they think that there are people in the world,

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Speaker 2: women in the world, whose lives are perfect and easy

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Speaker 2: and they're happy all the time, and that those people

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Speaker 2: are not feminists.

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Speaker 3: So they think that the reason their mothers are so

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Speaker 3: burnt out and miserable and pissed off is a direct

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Speaker 3: result of feminism. That feminism told them that they had

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Speaker 3: to work really really hard heart of the men, and

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Speaker 3: they're exhausted and they're just going nuts.

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Speaker 2: All women were really happy once upon a time, Yes,

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Speaker 2: when they didn't have jobs and they didn't have any

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Speaker 2: control over their fertility, which is a mythical time, when

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Speaker 2: they didn't have jobs as we always were, and they

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Speaker 2: didn't have their own money, and they didn't have any agency.

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Speaker 2: They were really really happy back then.

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Speaker 1: Vote has been quite tired.

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Speaker 2: Definitely having to think of it.

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Speaker 3: A vote for so true. Group four, Fuck feminism, Fuck

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Speaker 3: you too. This group has found feminism so exhausting that

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Speaker 3: they are attracted to the simplicity and the domestic joy

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Speaker 3: of traditionalism. So they are re embracing all the things

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Speaker 3: that gen X disavowed. They're the ones who are going,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I'm a triad wife. I've had enough

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Speaker 3: of all this stuff. I feel left out by the

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Speaker 3: people who are yelling at me. My mum didn't seem

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Speaker 3: that happy after all. I'm just going to make some sourdough, Holly.

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Speaker 3: First question, are you exhausted?

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Speaker 2: I'm exhausted by this ridiculous debate about feminism that seems

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Speaker 2: to suddenly be everywhere we turn. We talked about this

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Speaker 2: a few weeks ago after one of the biggest podcasts

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Speaker 2: in the world had a feminist round table, and we

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Speaker 2: talked about that and everywhere I look at the minute,

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Speaker 2: it seems to me that people are blaming the messy,

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Speaker 2: imperfect lives of women and the struggles of women on feminism,

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Speaker 2: when I don't think that that is the problem. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's the problem at all. There are so

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Speaker 2: many other culprits to the reasons why our lives aren't great, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: it has never been harder for a lot of women

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Speaker 2: than it is at the moment, or people in general,

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Speaker 2: to just have a decent, ordinary, dignified life, to be

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Speaker 2: able to afford one right, that is really really hard.

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Speaker 2: Everybody is finding it much much harder to make ends

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Speaker 2: meet and aspire to things that we used to think

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Speaker 2: were totally attainable. That's not feminism's fault. I know exhausted

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Speaker 2: women who do not work outside the home, like parents

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Speaker 2: who do not work outside the home. I know plenty

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Speaker 2: of those are exhausted. I know plenty of young women

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Speaker 2: who do not have children who are exhausted. Because all

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Speaker 2: of this sets up this idea broadly that we told

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Speaker 2: women that they had to do everything, and that the

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Speaker 2: code for that is have children and work. That's what

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Speaker 2: that's code for. And look what it's done. It's ruined them.

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Speaker 2: And I just think it's a false argument. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that that is what is exhausting women. I think

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Speaker 2: there are a million other reasons why most people are

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Speaker 2: exhausted now, and I think a lot of it's cost

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Speaker 2: of living related, a lot of its technology related, a

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Speaker 2: lot of it's basically music to your ears, Jesse, capitalism related.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think that feminism is to blame.

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Speaker 3: Don't you think though, that if you look back at

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Speaker 3: the civil rights movement, which was sort of late nineteen

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Speaker 3: fifties into the nineteen sixties, there was a set of

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Speaker 3: stated aims and they were really clear. It was about

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Speaker 3: legal challenges and dismantling segregation and affording Black Americans the vote, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: there were these things that they wanted to accomplish.

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Speaker 1: Same with the gay rights movement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there was a method and there was kind

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Speaker 3: of a bar of success. Not to say a lot

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Speaker 3: of black activists in the US would say we have

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Speaker 3: a long, long way to go, which they absolutely do,

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Speaker 3: but there was certain criteria by which they could measure

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Speaker 3: whether this movement was successful or not.

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Speaker 2: Right, didn't feminism or also have that? Wasn't it about

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Speaker 2: a quality?

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Speaker 1: I think?

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Speaker 2: Isn't it Like any major movement, the battlefields change depending

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Speaker 2: on the circumstance of your time. So literally, back to

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Speaker 2: what MEA was just saying, there was a time when

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Speaker 2: women could not vote in lots of Western nations, and

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Speaker 2: so obviously that was the most important thing at the time.

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Speaker 2: Then there was a time that women were not allowed

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Speaker 2: to have their own bank accounts or hold down a

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Speaker 2: job after they were married, and so that was the

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Speaker 2: most urgent argument of the time. I think that broadly speaking,

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Speaker 2: feminism still has the same point as it always has,

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Speaker 2: which is view women as humans who are equal to

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Speaker 2: all other humans.

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Speaker 3: Right. I feel as though maybe feminism, the confusion, how

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Speaker 3: convoluted it's become, is contributing to the sense of exhaustion.

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Speaker 3: So to some feminists, the people that we're critiquing are

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Speaker 3: other women, right, And I'm not immune from this. I've

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Speaker 3: absolutely done this too. So we're in this dog fight

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Speaker 3: where we're arguing about how long you stay at home

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Speaker 3: with kids and all these kind of personal choices, while

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Speaker 3: Roe v. Wade is being overturned, while a woman a

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Speaker 3: week has been killed, while you've still got a gender

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Speaker 3: pay gap, while women's health is still underfunded, and I

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Speaker 3: wonder if we've lost sight.

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Speaker 2: But I would argue Jesse that those things you're talking

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Speaker 2: about before about staying at home are not feminist arguments.

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Speaker 2: They're just arguments about different kinds of people making other

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Speaker 2: ones that you are just discussing are really important feminist arguments,

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Speaker 2: I think, and Mia says this all the time, so

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to quote her. Not everything that affects

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Speaker 2: women is about feminism, and not every choice that women

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Speaker 2: make is about feminism. Like just as I said before

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Speaker 2: about how not everything that's wrong with our lives is

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Speaker 2: about feminism, or whether or if women are arguing about something,

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Speaker 2: they disagree about something, it's not necessarily about feminism, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I think the term itself has become I won't say meaningless,

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Speaker 1: but very far removed from what it actually means. And

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Speaker 1: you see this all the time when an individual woman

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Speaker 1: does an individual thing, good or bad, and it suddenly

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Speaker 1: becomes this existential conversation about feminism and about all women.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's partly because women are much

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Speaker 1: more likely to compare ourselves to other women, so we

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Speaker 1: see other women's decisions and choices as somehow being an

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Speaker 1: indictment on our own if they're different. There's stuff that

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Speaker 1: you believe in principle, like that women should be allowed

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Speaker 1: to work outside the home and earn money, and then

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Speaker 1: there's reckoning with that that a lot of women don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that straight away. They want to be

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Speaker 1: at home with their children more that doesn't make them

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Speaker 1: a bad feminist. That just means that society isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: set up for families or women to make the choices

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Speaker 1: that are right for them. Like there's a real misconception

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Speaker 1: among some people that feminism says you've got to be

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Speaker 1: Sherylf Sanberg or you've got to go and be Kim Kardashian,

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Speaker 1: You've got to Feminism don't saying anything. Feminism just says,

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Speaker 1: as Holly said, we want the choice because we want equality,

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Speaker 1: we want to be treated. We don't want to be men,

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Speaker 1: but we want the same rights men.

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Speaker 2: And I want to be able to be as messy

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Speaker 2: and imperfect and complicated and sometimes argumentative and sometimes happy

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Speaker 2: and sometimes tired and sometimes all those things just like

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Speaker 2: anyone else.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it's a life stage thing too, in

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Speaker 3: that feminism, you know, even up until your twenties, depending

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Speaker 3: on your life experiences, and your life experience is very

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Speaker 3: much informing relationship with feminism, but can make you feel

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Speaker 3: like there is a sameness with men, and then you're confronted.

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Speaker 3: Some women are confronted with a biological reality, which is

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Speaker 3: that there's a difference and we still haven't quite worked

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Speaker 3: out what to do with that, And.

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Speaker 1: I think feminism doesn't tell you what to do. It

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Speaker 1: just says you should be able to make the choice

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Speaker 1: about whether to wear pads, about who you want to

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Speaker 1: vote for, about whether you have a bank account in

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Speaker 1: your own name, about whether you get a divorce or not,

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Speaker 1: about how many children you have and when you have them,

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Speaker 1: all those same choices that men have always had.

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Speaker 3: So is that just this heaviness? That's what I wonder

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Speaker 3: is so many things have been conflated with feminism necessarily right,

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Speaker 3: that there's this heaviness, and are not constantly wearing and

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Speaker 3: advocating for all of those things all of the time,

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Speaker 3: then it feels like you're either failing at feminism or

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Speaker 3: I don't know, you're not living coherently with your ethics

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Speaker 3: or whatever it is, and therefore you want to throw

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Speaker 3: it all off and kind of go I feel like

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Speaker 3: I am suffocating. Whereas in all movements and all civil

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Speaker 3: rights movements, when there's been success, people have generally chosen

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Speaker 3: a thing, right, It's like your thing is I really

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Speaker 3: care about domestic violence advocacy or women's health or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But now it's like you've got to care about fifty

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Speaker 3: five things and advocate for them equally all of the time.

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Speaker 2: I don't know who's telling you that. I genuinely don't.

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Speaker 2: And I also think it is a misrepresentation to think

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Speaker 2: that any big social movement, everybody in it has always

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Speaker 2: thought exactly the same things and been entirely aligned on goals.

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Speaker 2: It's not true. Every social movement in the world is fragmented,

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Speaker 2: has within it various camps who care more about some

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Speaker 2: things than others, have people who will argue about the priorities.

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Speaker 2: And also one of the things that I see happening

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Speaker 2: a lot at the moment, and I don't want to

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Speaker 2: sound like a conspiracist, but it's not an accident that

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Speaker 2: suddenly we're being fed everywhere we look like feminisms done,

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Speaker 2: women bad everywhere I look at the minute. That's what

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing. And you know, I'm seeing all these things

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Speaker 2: on Instagram that'll be like, imagine the propagander it took

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Speaker 2: to convince us that this was oppressive. That's something I

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Speaker 2: get sold all the time, which'll be yes, a woman

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Speaker 2: looking really happy with her children. No one was trying

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Speaker 2: to convince everybody that that was oppressive. But it's an

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Speaker 2: organized resistance. That's what I genuinely believe. I think that

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Speaker 2: my daughter, who is fifteen and lives on TikTok and

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Speaker 2: so on, is facing an organized resistance to feminism that

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Speaker 2: I did not face as a gen X woman. We're

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Speaker 2: different issues. We literally were going. You know, it's quite

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Speaker 2: radical to care about your career and maybe not change

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Speaker 2: your name if you got married, and blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't have this ground swell of very powerful

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Speaker 2: forces who are invested in keeping this down like it's intro.

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Speaker 2: I know I sound a little bit hyperbolic when I

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Speaker 2: say that, but I genuinely think so because I think that,

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Speaker 2: as you said earlier, Jesse, about how very real things

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Speaker 2: are happening in lots of different parts of the world

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Speaker 2: in different ways that are winding back rights of women

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Speaker 2: as a reaction to feminism in broad terms, And so

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Speaker 2: it's not an accident that suddenly, in little trickles everywhere

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Speaker 2: we're seeing all this. But wouldn't it just be empowering

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Speaker 2: to just let a man make all the decisions? And

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Speaker 2: of course, of course life is difficult for all of us,

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Speaker 2: and at times it's like, wouldn't it be great if

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Speaker 2: someone else just made all the decisions, have made all

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Speaker 2: the money, and i'd but it's a false situation that

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Speaker 2: never existed. It's never been perfect to not have power

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Speaker 2: over your life, and it's never been perfect to have

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Speaker 2: power over your life. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: I think that your sort of sense of exhaustion, which

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Speaker 3: Peterson talks about, is like, we already protested this. I've

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Speaker 3: already been to this protest. I've already fought for this,

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Speaker 3: and I thought we won it, and now it's being

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Speaker 3: wound back and I'm having the same arguments I was having.

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Speaker 3: I know, my mum feels like this thirty forty years ago,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, really, do we have to go back.

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Speaker 1: To Well, imagine how American women must feel. Yeah, Like, literally,

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Speaker 1: women in America no longer have control over their own

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Speaker 1: bodies in most states. It's astonishing. And I also understand

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, Jesse, about the exhaustion that we feel

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Speaker 1: by the purity tests of some feminists. I think that

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Speaker 1: the other problem with the word and the way it's

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Speaker 1: been co opted. The most extreme and loudest people are

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Speaker 1: the ones that have sort of got the cultural hold

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Speaker 1: on the word and a lot of women will look

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Speaker 1: at those people and go ooh, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be in a club that she's in.

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Speaker 3: With any movement, it's about you look at who you're

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Speaker 3: standing beside, and sometimes it becomes more about who you're

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Speaker 3: standing beside than what the word actually represents to you,

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Speaker 3: and you kind of go ooh, do I feel comfortable

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Speaker 3: in this club surrounded by these people?

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Speaker 2: And I don't think we should let ourselves be tricked

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Speaker 2: into losing something so important because there are people who

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Speaker 2: are saying, oh, so you think this, this and this,

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Speaker 2: and it's like no, but that doesn't mean I disavowed

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Speaker 2: the entire movement.

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Speaker 1: The loudus voice doesn't speak for all of us. It

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Speaker 1: used to be back in the twenty tens and the

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Speaker 1: early two thousands. Remember every female celebrity that was interviewed,

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Speaker 1: there was the gotcha question do you call yourself a feminist?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: But famously Julie Bishop and Jackie O didn't And it's

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Speaker 1: like ooh, and it was like it was a gotcha

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Speaker 1: because there were also these stereotypes of what does it mean?

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Speaker 1: Does it mean I hate men? Does it mean I

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Speaker 1: can't shave my own pits? Does it mean, I can't

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Speaker 1: like clothes.

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Speaker 3: There was also an emptiness to that, though, because it

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Speaker 3: was like, if I wear this badge, then I don't

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Speaker 3: actually have to do anything. And I understand that.

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Speaker 1: Girl power in the spice.

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Speaker 3: Carl, Yes, there's this exhaustion, and I don't think we

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Speaker 3: can have this chat without acknowledging it. Of just like

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Speaker 3: if you are a woman of color, if you were

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Speaker 3: a disabled woman, if you are a poor woman, if

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Speaker 3: you are a migrant woman, you feel like you've been

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Speaker 3: totally marginalized by this movement from the beginning, from at

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Speaker 3: least the popular palatable, even though those women have been

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Speaker 3: writing about feminism for just as long.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And there's a lot of very valid

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Speaker 1: criticism about white feminism and about white feminists just like us,

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Speaker 1: who are more likely to advocate for things that aren't intersectional.

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Speaker 3: And maybe Cheryl Samberg felt like her brand of feminism worked.

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Speaker 3: She was, of course, that was it cooo of Facebook. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: she was, Yeah, And she wrote that famous book Lean In,

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Speaker 3: And I can just see the frustration of kind of

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Speaker 3: looking at that and going, well, if we only see

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Speaker 3: feminism as like material wealth or like's.

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Speaker 1: But Catlin Moran's point was always that there should be

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Speaker 1: one hundred books about one hundred different types of things,

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Speaker 1: and there are. The other thing that Katlin and Moran

430
00:21:47,702 --> 00:21:51,821
Speaker 1: says is that we shouldn't confuse feminism with Buddhism. So

431
00:21:52,262 --> 00:21:56,461
Speaker 1: describing yourself as a feminist does not mean that you

432
00:21:57,422 --> 00:22:01,302
Speaker 1: support every choice that every woman in the world makes.

433
00:22:01,821 --> 00:22:04,341
Speaker 1: And also being a woman and making a choice does

434
00:22:04,381 --> 00:22:07,221
Speaker 1: not make that choice a feminist choice. It makes it

435
00:22:07,302 --> 00:22:10,381
Speaker 1: a choice that a woman or many women have made.

436
00:22:10,422 --> 00:22:13,941
Speaker 1: So seeing everything that women do in the world through

437
00:22:13,982 --> 00:22:16,621
Speaker 1: this lens of is it feminism? Are they being a

438
00:22:16,621 --> 00:22:20,462
Speaker 1: good feminist? Has feminism failed? That to me is exhausting.

439
00:22:20,661 --> 00:22:24,702
Speaker 2: You're so right, But isn't it interesting that when these

440
00:22:24,742 --> 00:22:27,502
Speaker 2: big things are happening and bubbling up, women are being

441
00:22:27,542 --> 00:22:30,502
Speaker 2: convinced that other women, so who's made a different life

442
00:22:30,581 --> 00:22:33,462
Speaker 2: choice to mine, is my enemy.

443
00:22:33,182 --> 00:22:34,421
Speaker 3: And I am her enemy.

444
00:22:34,661 --> 00:22:38,782
Speaker 2: It's not true. I reject this idea that it's feminism

445
00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:42,821
Speaker 2: that's the problem. I think that it's very very fishy

446
00:22:43,101 --> 00:22:46,341
Speaker 2: that that's suddenly the mainstream discourse.

447
00:22:46,542 --> 00:22:48,341
Speaker 1: Out louders in a moment, we are going to explain

448
00:22:48,381 --> 00:22:51,382
Speaker 1: the secret of charisma, and I'm going to tell you

449
00:22:51,462 --> 00:22:54,061
Speaker 1: who's on top of the out loud leader board in

450
00:22:54,141 --> 00:22:55,341
Speaker 1: terms of who hasard.

451
00:22:58,502 --> 00:22:59,182
Speaker 3: Out louders.

452
00:22:59,222 --> 00:23:02,222
Speaker 2: We've got a listener dilemma, and we need your collective

453
00:23:02,222 --> 00:23:05,102
Speaker 2: wisdom to help us solve it. Please, here is the problem.

454
00:23:05,542 --> 00:23:07,302
Speaker 2: The other day I met up with a good friend

455
00:23:07,302 --> 00:23:09,302
Speaker 2: for coffee at our usual spot. We hadn't caught up

456
00:23:09,341 --> 00:23:11,421
Speaker 2: in a so I was really looking forward to a

457
00:23:11,422 --> 00:23:14,982
Speaker 2: proper chat, But about fifteen minutes in, things took an

458
00:23:15,061 --> 00:23:19,901
Speaker 2: unexpected turn. She started raving about these amazing new cleaning

459
00:23:19,942 --> 00:23:23,181
Speaker 2: products she'd discovered, and at first I thought she was

460
00:23:23,222 --> 00:23:27,262
Speaker 2: just being enthusiastic. But then came the catalog, the sign

461
00:23:27,302 --> 00:23:30,221
Speaker 2: up forms, and that's when I realized I wasn't just

462
00:23:30,302 --> 00:23:32,901
Speaker 2: catching up with a friend. I was being pitched to.

463
00:23:33,742 --> 00:23:36,821
Speaker 2: She was surprisingly persistent, telling me how this was at

464
00:23:36,861 --> 00:23:40,102
Speaker 2: once in a lifetime business opportunity and how I'd be

465
00:23:40,302 --> 00:23:43,182
Speaker 2: perfect for it. I did my best to stay polite,

466
00:23:43,262 --> 00:23:46,582
Speaker 2: make a few non committal noises, and eventually escaped by

467
00:23:46,621 --> 00:23:49,742
Speaker 2: saying I had an appointment I couldn't miss. Now I'm

468
00:23:49,742 --> 00:23:51,661
Speaker 2: stuck in this weird place. I care about her, and

469
00:23:51,702 --> 00:23:53,702
Speaker 2: I don't want to be rude, but I also don't

470
00:23:53,742 --> 00:23:56,381
Speaker 2: want to get trapped in another awkward sales pitch. So

471
00:23:56,462 --> 00:23:58,501
Speaker 2: what do I do the next time she texts and

472
00:23:58,702 --> 00:24:02,061
Speaker 2: asks to catch up again? The question is what do

473
00:24:02,101 --> 00:24:03,302
Speaker 2: you do next?

474
00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:08,141
Speaker 3: That is a really hard one. Yeah, Maya, what I

475
00:24:08,182 --> 00:24:10,821
Speaker 3: want from you is like the words that she is

476
00:24:10,901 --> 00:24:12,502
Speaker 3: meant to say this friend.

477
00:24:12,302 --> 00:24:14,582
Speaker 1: The words that you say, or you can follow it up.

478
00:24:14,581 --> 00:24:17,821
Speaker 1: So she froze, which I totally understand. She's gone away

479
00:24:18,022 --> 00:24:20,342
Speaker 1: she comes back in a text or the next time

480
00:24:20,341 --> 00:24:22,701
Speaker 1: I see each other or reply to the email with

481
00:24:22,742 --> 00:24:27,942
Speaker 1: all the forms. Hey, this looks amazing, but weirdly, I'm

482
00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:31,742
Speaker 1: also in the middle of an exciting new business opportunity

483
00:24:32,222 --> 00:24:36,502
Speaker 1: selling essential oils, and I really need to focus all

484
00:24:36,581 --> 00:24:40,022
Speaker 1: my attention on this business opportunity. But if it doesn't

485
00:24:40,022 --> 00:24:43,061
Speaker 1: work out with you and the cleaning products, let me know,

486
00:24:43,061 --> 00:24:45,821
Speaker 1: because I actually think that you would be fantastic at

487
00:24:45,821 --> 00:24:48,542
Speaker 1: this opportunity and I can send you more information about it.

488
00:24:48,782 --> 00:24:49,982
Speaker 2: She's a genius.

489
00:24:50,222 --> 00:24:53,262
Speaker 3: I would say, thank you so much. Does sound really

490
00:24:53,302 --> 00:24:56,462
Speaker 3: really exciting. I'm not in any sort of financial position

491
00:24:56,702 --> 00:24:57,662
Speaker 3: to but Jesse.

492
00:24:57,542 --> 00:25:01,101
Speaker 1: You can make so much more money upside is huge.

493
00:25:01,381 --> 00:25:04,021
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I just don't have any money, not

494
00:25:04,101 --> 00:25:05,942
Speaker 3: one dog, I can't even pay for this coffee. In fact,

495
00:25:06,022 --> 00:25:07,421
Speaker 3: I was hoping you would pay for this coffee.

496
00:25:07,422 --> 00:25:09,542
Speaker 1: I also, if you don't have the confidence to come

497
00:25:09,621 --> 00:25:12,061
Speaker 1: back with a lie like I just suggested, you could

498
00:25:12,061 --> 00:25:15,381
Speaker 1: also just say this sounds amazing, So you've got to

499
00:25:15,381 --> 00:25:17,461
Speaker 1: give her a little compliment, and then you go, I

500
00:25:17,661 --> 00:25:20,182
Speaker 1: just don't have the bandwidth to take on anything else

501
00:25:20,222 --> 00:25:20,502
Speaker 1: at the y.

502
00:25:20,621 --> 00:25:21,542
Speaker 3: Yes, I like that.

503
00:25:21,581 --> 00:25:22,822
Speaker 1: No one can argue with bound.

504
00:25:22,661 --> 00:25:24,461
Speaker 3: With I like that, And then I think that if

505
00:25:24,542 --> 00:25:27,581
Speaker 3: she persists, I think we've got to put the friendship

506
00:25:27,621 --> 00:25:30,661
Speaker 3: on rest, because that is not That is not what

507
00:25:30,742 --> 00:25:32,462
Speaker 3: friendship is. It's not selling to each.

508
00:25:32,262 --> 00:25:35,661
Speaker 2: Other absolutely out loud as what would you do next?

509
00:25:35,821 --> 00:25:38,861
Speaker 2: Share your thoughts in the Mama Mia outloud Facebook group. Also,

510
00:25:38,901 --> 00:25:40,942
Speaker 2: if you have a dilemma, send it to us. We'd

511
00:25:40,982 --> 00:25:43,061
Speaker 2: love to hear it out loud at mamamea dot com

512
00:25:43,101 --> 00:25:44,861
Speaker 2: dot au. We're gonna help you.

513
00:25:45,821 --> 00:25:47,861
Speaker 1: What are the ingredients of charisma and do you have

514
00:25:47,982 --> 00:25:49,981
Speaker 1: to be born with it or can you develop it

515
00:25:50,861 --> 00:25:51,662
Speaker 1: with a machine.

516
00:25:52,022 --> 00:25:54,702
Speaker 2: I'm very interested. I always thought that you did have

517
00:25:54,782 --> 00:25:57,221
Speaker 2: to be bored with it. As much as you can

518
00:25:57,262 --> 00:25:59,222
Speaker 2: read all these tips about how to get more of it.

519
00:26:00,182 --> 00:26:03,222
Speaker 2: You can't deny that sometimes you meet people and there's

520
00:26:03,462 --> 00:26:06,462
Speaker 2: just a thing about them, right, So just a lean

521
00:26:06,661 --> 00:26:07,502
Speaker 2: in quality.

522
00:26:07,861 --> 00:26:12,942
Speaker 3: So personality is for to sixty percent inheritable, like it's inherited, right.

523
00:26:13,061 --> 00:26:15,141
Speaker 3: So the idea that you would be an extra vet,

524
00:26:15,262 --> 00:26:17,141
Speaker 3: or you would be agreeable, or you would be particularly

525
00:26:17,141 --> 00:26:20,422
Speaker 3: neurotic or whatever it is, is based on your genetics.

526
00:26:20,422 --> 00:26:22,901
Speaker 3: But there are certain things you can do. It's like

527
00:26:23,022 --> 00:26:25,302
Speaker 3: learning to be a public speaker, like anyone if they

528
00:26:25,302 --> 00:26:27,421
Speaker 3: did enough training could probably tell us.

529
00:26:27,621 --> 00:26:29,462
Speaker 1: First of all, you've got to understand what the components

530
00:26:29,462 --> 00:26:31,462
Speaker 1: of charisma are. So if I said to you whole,

531
00:26:32,341 --> 00:26:35,462
Speaker 1: what do you think the traits of a charismatic person are?

532
00:26:35,581 --> 00:26:35,982
Speaker 1: There's two?

533
00:26:36,661 --> 00:26:40,821
Speaker 2: Confidence, probably I'd say, no, oh, what's the next one?

534
00:26:41,061 --> 00:26:44,821
Speaker 2: Attractiveness comes into it, and it doesn't have to be

535
00:26:45,022 --> 00:26:49,222
Speaker 2: necessarily conventional attractiveness because I often think that charisma to

536
00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:51,542
Speaker 2: be is a very male coded word, even though we

537
00:26:51,581 --> 00:26:54,701
Speaker 2: all know lots of charismatic women. True, you more often

538
00:26:54,782 --> 00:26:57,061
Speaker 2: hear people say he's charismatic, And when you ask Google

539
00:26:57,061 --> 00:27:00,341
Speaker 2: who's charismatic, they're always men, And often it's a compliment

540
00:27:00,422 --> 00:27:04,621
Speaker 2: paid to men who are not necessarily conventionally attractive, but

541
00:27:04,861 --> 00:27:06,981
Speaker 2: have an aura around them.

542
00:27:07,061 --> 00:27:08,382
Speaker 1: Do you think it means someone you want to fark

543
00:27:08,422 --> 00:27:09,022
Speaker 1: like secretly?

544
00:27:09,141 --> 00:27:11,262
Speaker 2: I think no, because I don't think it's sexual. I

545
00:27:11,262 --> 00:27:13,942
Speaker 2: don't think charisma is sexual, but I think it's code

546
00:27:13,982 --> 00:27:16,022
Speaker 2: for someone who makes you feel good.

547
00:27:16,502 --> 00:27:20,261
Speaker 1: Interesting. And you're not wrong about confidence and personality, because

548
00:27:20,702 --> 00:27:23,502
Speaker 1: three of the traits that can make you more likely

549
00:27:23,542 --> 00:27:30,382
Speaker 1: to think someone has charisma are attractiveness, extraversion, and intelligence. Jesse,

550
00:27:30,702 --> 00:27:32,861
Speaker 1: how would you describe charisma like if you think of

551
00:27:32,861 --> 00:27:36,181
Speaker 1: some charismatic people like me, what do you think the

552
00:27:36,222 --> 00:27:37,782
Speaker 1: components of my charisma are.

553
00:27:37,861 --> 00:27:39,821
Speaker 2: I'd love to disagree with her, but she's actually not

554
00:27:39,821 --> 00:27:41,581
Speaker 2: wrong with me. It is very charismatic.

555
00:27:42,022 --> 00:27:42,262
Speaker 3: Yeah.

556
00:27:42,542 --> 00:27:46,821
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is painting, Jesse, because she might have to

557
00:27:46,861 --> 00:27:48,421
Speaker 2: say something nice about me.

558
00:27:49,262 --> 00:27:53,181
Speaker 3: Look, I what do you think it is? I looked

559
00:27:53,182 --> 00:27:57,741
Speaker 3: it at what makes someone charismatic? And picture of me?

560
00:27:57,982 --> 00:28:00,381
Speaker 3: You can know there was not a picture of you

561
00:28:00,581 --> 00:28:02,621
Speaker 3: at all. In fact, when I did ask Google, the

562
00:28:02,661 --> 00:28:04,942
Speaker 3: first twenty results were men, and then the Google AI

563
00:28:05,022 --> 00:28:06,821
Speaker 3: feature gave me six examples, all men.

564
00:28:07,141 --> 00:28:09,422
Speaker 2: So charisma is very.

565
00:28:09,861 --> 00:28:11,381
Speaker 3: AI is very very sexist.

566
00:28:11,702 --> 00:28:12,422
Speaker 1: Tell me who they were?

567
00:28:12,581 --> 00:28:16,382
Speaker 3: So you're Barack Obama, You, George Clooney, you're Tom Cruise,

568
00:28:16,542 --> 00:28:19,982
Speaker 3: Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, lots of like people who

569
00:28:19,982 --> 00:28:20,661
Speaker 3: make speeches.

570
00:28:21,101 --> 00:28:23,501
Speaker 1: But I'm watching Drive to Survive. Do you know who?

571
00:28:23,542 --> 00:28:24,742
Speaker 3: I think?

572
00:28:25,341 --> 00:28:27,022
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.

573
00:28:27,182 --> 00:28:27,702
Speaker 2: He's just hot.

574
00:28:27,821 --> 00:28:31,462
Speaker 1: That's a different thing. Daniel Ricardo, you think yes.

575
00:28:31,702 --> 00:28:33,142
Speaker 2: One of the reasons why it's not it was about

576
00:28:33,182 --> 00:28:36,061
Speaker 2: attractiveness is think of somebody and this is is because

577
00:28:36,061 --> 00:28:38,781
Speaker 2: you said cars. But who is? Like I don't mean

578
00:28:38,822 --> 00:28:40,981
Speaker 2: to be horrible, but it's actually repugnant to me in

579
00:28:41,022 --> 00:28:45,342
Speaker 2: many ways. He's Jeremy Clarks, but he has bags of charisma?

580
00:28:45,462 --> 00:28:48,462
Speaker 2: Does Boris Johnson? Right? I know these are englishmen. I'm

581
00:28:48,462 --> 00:28:52,822
Speaker 2: pulling out here again, like eh, but bags of charisma?

582
00:28:52,942 --> 00:28:56,582
Speaker 2: Clearly Like it's there's something Barnaby Joyce like, I'm not

583
00:28:57,062 --> 00:28:59,501
Speaker 2: not personally like I want to. But the reason that

584
00:28:59,542 --> 00:29:03,622
Speaker 2: man is successful it's not because he looks like George Clooney.

585
00:29:04,302 --> 00:29:05,102
Speaker 2: Charisma is there.

586
00:29:05,262 --> 00:29:08,302
Speaker 3: You know a woman with charisma is Jackie Lamby. Yeah,

587
00:29:08,422 --> 00:29:10,062
Speaker 3: he has it, and I think that the reason she

588
00:29:10,182 --> 00:29:13,181
Speaker 3: has it. So extraversion is important. Confidence is important. How

589
00:29:13,262 --> 00:29:14,862
Speaker 3: you stand all that kind of stuff. So they say

590
00:29:15,342 --> 00:29:18,782
Speaker 3: how often you smile? Positive effect. So if you're someone

591
00:29:18,822 --> 00:29:25,062
Speaker 3: who's like miserable and cynical, not charismatic, I'm trying. I'm trying.

592
00:29:25,382 --> 00:29:27,862
Speaker 3: You're meant to lean slightly forward when someone is speaking,

593
00:29:28,062 --> 00:29:30,262
Speaker 3: friendly eye contact but not too intense. He meant to

594
00:29:30,262 --> 00:29:31,822
Speaker 3: look away every now and then, to just give them

595
00:29:31,822 --> 00:29:36,701
Speaker 3: a minute, avoid fidgeting. Apparently fidgeting is really charismatic. Mirror

596
00:29:36,702 --> 00:29:40,662
Speaker 3: the other person's body language, very tone and pace, monotone,

597
00:29:40,782 --> 00:29:43,062
Speaker 3: not charismatic. So there are all these things that you

598
00:29:43,102 --> 00:29:46,102
Speaker 3: can kind of learn, But this one I found really interesting.

599
00:29:46,142 --> 00:29:48,221
Speaker 3: There's been this kind of recent study done by this

600
00:29:48,222 --> 00:29:51,462
Speaker 3: Australian guy about what's the quality, what is the thing?

601
00:29:52,502 --> 00:29:55,582
Speaker 3: And he said, and this was surprising to me, it

602
00:29:55,661 --> 00:29:59,902
Speaker 3: is mental speed slash behavioral flexibility. And what he meant

603
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:02,142
Speaker 3: by that was he was talking about things like quick wit,

604
00:30:02,942 --> 00:30:05,862
Speaker 3: like being with someone who is a chameleon and.

605
00:30:05,942 --> 00:30:09,182
Speaker 2: Who can you what you Yes, you know, they often say,

606
00:30:09,822 --> 00:30:12,261
Speaker 2: and again, lots of male examples I can think of

607
00:30:12,262 --> 00:30:13,782
Speaker 2: in this, but I'm sure there are plenty of women.

608
00:30:14,102 --> 00:30:16,382
Speaker 2: They often say, you know, he made me feel like

609
00:30:16,422 --> 00:30:17,982
Speaker 2: I was the only person in the room. And again

610
00:30:18,022 --> 00:30:20,221
Speaker 2: not necessarily in a sexual way, but when they meet you,

611
00:30:20,822 --> 00:30:25,222
Speaker 2: really engaged and interested in you. Like Prince Harry probably

612
00:30:25,222 --> 00:30:27,782
Speaker 2: has charisma, Prince William possibly not.

613
00:30:28,062 --> 00:30:30,902
Speaker 3: When I've worked with comedians or even like, I've watched

614
00:30:30,902 --> 00:30:34,742
Speaker 3: people and the thing that has blown my mind about

615
00:30:34,902 --> 00:30:39,782
Speaker 3: them is how quickly their mind is working. So Hamish Blake,

616
00:30:39,782 --> 00:30:41,782
Speaker 3: if you were to break down his charisma, I think

617
00:30:41,782 --> 00:30:46,302
Speaker 3: it's it's the how witty he is and how he

618
00:30:46,502 --> 00:30:49,142
Speaker 3: is this particular person when he does Hamish Nandy And

619
00:30:49,142 --> 00:30:51,062
Speaker 3: then he was on that Assembly show with Lee Sales

620
00:30:51,102 --> 00:30:52,382
Speaker 3: and he gave a different element.

621
00:30:52,102 --> 00:30:53,942
Speaker 1: Of shape shifting in a way.

622
00:30:53,822 --> 00:30:55,902
Speaker 3: Yes, but not in a way that feels manipulating.

623
00:30:56,182 --> 00:30:58,622
Speaker 1: It's like adaptability. I think you need a lot of

624
00:30:58,742 --> 00:31:01,062
Speaker 1: self awareness. The two traits that they say you were

625
00:31:01,142 --> 00:31:04,782
Speaker 1: right about affability, which is basically breaks down into those

626
00:31:04,782 --> 00:31:06,782
Speaker 1: things that you said, like the frequency of smiling and

627
00:31:06,782 --> 00:31:11,022
Speaker 1: how approachable someone is and how positive they are. Negative

628
00:31:11,022 --> 00:31:15,022
Speaker 1: people do not have charisma and influence, and influence is

629
00:31:15,142 --> 00:31:18,262
Speaker 1: judged based on qualities like the presence you have in

630
00:31:18,262 --> 00:31:21,102
Speaker 1: a room, which can be harder to kind of distill,

631
00:31:21,182 --> 00:31:25,942
Speaker 1: right magnetism and leadership ability. But what's interesting is that

632
00:31:26,182 --> 00:31:32,142
Speaker 1: these researchers created this machine called the charisma lator. It's

633
00:31:32,182 --> 00:31:36,542
Speaker 1: literally called that the CHARISMI Lata and it combines those

634
00:31:36,622 --> 00:31:41,221
Speaker 1: kind of mental things with physical gestures and stuff. And

635
00:31:41,262 --> 00:31:45,102
Speaker 1: they say that if someone just spent fifteen minutes with it,

636
00:31:45,302 --> 00:31:46,182
Speaker 1: I assume it's like.

637
00:31:46,302 --> 00:31:47,822
Speaker 3: It's like a VR situation.

638
00:31:47,982 --> 00:31:53,502
Speaker 1: Yeah, it improves your general charisma perceived by outsiders by

639
00:31:53,542 --> 00:31:54,702
Speaker 1: seventeen percent.

640
00:31:55,102 --> 00:31:57,942
Speaker 3: That's insane. It's like the tiny little things you do.

641
00:31:57,902 --> 00:32:00,661
Speaker 1: So it can be learned. For some people it's innate,

642
00:32:01,382 --> 00:32:03,022
Speaker 1: and for some people that can be learned. But what's

643
00:32:03,022 --> 00:32:05,902
Speaker 1: also interesting is that if you have too much of it,

644
00:32:05,982 --> 00:32:09,022
Speaker 1: you're going to like this, it can tip over to

645
00:32:09,062 --> 00:32:13,981
Speaker 1: being it is because too much charisma can become narcissism.

646
00:32:14,102 --> 00:32:15,981
Speaker 3: So this is this is highlighted and put on my

647
00:32:16,182 --> 00:32:16,701
Speaker 3: death and.

648
00:32:16,822 --> 00:32:19,702
Speaker 2: Overwhelming, a bit overwhelming to be around those people.

649
00:32:19,502 --> 00:32:21,822
Speaker 3: Like, you know what, you don't want too much charisma.

650
00:32:21,902 --> 00:32:23,582
Speaker 3: You don't want it, and you don't want it because

651
00:32:23,582 --> 00:32:26,182
Speaker 3: people don't trust you because they think that you kind

652
00:32:26,182 --> 00:32:29,941
Speaker 3: of all talk, no action and apparently like it's kind

653
00:32:29,982 --> 00:32:33,222
Speaker 3: of the top echelons of charisma. People start to go no, no, no,

654
00:32:33,382 --> 00:32:36,102
Speaker 3: there's something not right here, like are you Ted Bundy,

655
00:32:36,182 --> 00:32:38,262
Speaker 3: a serial killer type thing, and I just have no

656
00:32:38,382 --> 00:32:40,622
Speaker 3: worry of ever entering that area. So that makes me

657
00:32:40,661 --> 00:32:41,582
Speaker 3: feel a little bit better.

658
00:32:41,742 --> 00:32:43,701
Speaker 1: I think the key to people with true charisma and

659
00:32:43,742 --> 00:32:46,501
Speaker 1: the right amount of charisma is that they're the same

660
00:32:47,422 --> 00:32:49,421
Speaker 1: one on one as they are in a group. Because

661
00:32:49,422 --> 00:32:53,461
Speaker 1: you mentioned comedians, Hamish Blake is the same.

662
00:32:54,222 --> 00:32:56,142
Speaker 3: He's a slightly yeah yeah.

663
00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:58,382
Speaker 1: Modified version one on one. I meansued him for my

664
00:32:58,422 --> 00:33:02,342
Speaker 1: filter and authentic yeah. And I would say the same

665
00:33:02,382 --> 00:33:06,661
Speaker 1: about Koshi for example, or about let's think.

666
00:33:06,502 --> 00:33:10,142
Speaker 2: Of someone women for women who definitely have charisma when

667
00:33:10,142 --> 00:33:11,222
Speaker 2: they walk into a room.

668
00:33:11,062 --> 00:33:15,941
Speaker 3: Well, definitely Michelle Obama, definitely.

669
00:33:14,542 --> 00:33:17,102
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. Well, we haven't met them, but I think

670
00:33:17,142 --> 00:33:19,661
Speaker 1: that there's not that big gap, whereas comedians that all

671
00:33:19,661 --> 00:33:24,622
Speaker 1: the comedians I've known or worked with, massive gap. It's performative.

672
00:33:24,822 --> 00:33:27,461
Speaker 3: But then here's here's someone that we all know personally

673
00:33:27,542 --> 00:33:30,462
Speaker 3: and who's famous, who I think has a lot of charisma.

674
00:33:30,502 --> 00:33:34,022
Speaker 3: I don't think it's it's absolutely not. It's Kate Langbrook,

675
00:33:34,302 --> 00:33:38,102
Speaker 3: and I think she has it because she's very, very quick,

676
00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:40,622
Speaker 3: And I think that that comes down to a certain

677
00:33:40,661 --> 00:33:44,102
Speaker 3: type of intelligence where you just go whatever's going on

678
00:33:44,142 --> 00:33:45,862
Speaker 3: behind the scenes, and making all of that look easy,

679
00:33:45,902 --> 00:33:47,662
Speaker 3: but it's actually really really hard.

680
00:33:47,702 --> 00:33:49,421
Speaker 1: Do you know, in case people think that it's just

681
00:33:49,661 --> 00:33:53,462
Speaker 1: extroverts that can have it, Sally, I don't think it's true.

682
00:33:53,462 --> 00:33:57,461
Speaker 1: You that's Sally Hepworth. She's not massive, like she's not

683
00:33:57,502 --> 00:34:01,661
Speaker 1: a big personality like Kate Langbrook, but she's extraordinary.

684
00:34:01,982 --> 00:34:03,661
Speaker 3: Why do you think I don't have it?

685
00:34:04,262 --> 00:34:06,262
Speaker 2: I don't know that you don't have it.

686
00:34:06,302 --> 00:34:07,982
Speaker 1: But do you know what charisma is not the best

687
00:34:07,982 --> 00:34:08,582
Speaker 1: thing you can have?

688
00:34:08,742 --> 00:34:10,582
Speaker 2: Well, this is one of the things about this, right

689
00:34:10,742 --> 00:34:13,301
Speaker 2: is because I think although you know, the facts might

690
00:34:13,382 --> 00:34:15,861
Speaker 2: say you can make yourself more charismatic. I think it's

691
00:34:15,982 --> 00:34:18,942
Speaker 2: just true that some people have an X factor, whatever

692
00:34:18,942 --> 00:34:21,142
Speaker 2: it is, and that's a present. It's nice for them

693
00:34:21,302 --> 00:34:23,502
Speaker 2: that they have that. In the same way that you know,

694
00:34:23,741 --> 00:34:27,381
Speaker 2: some people are naturally very beautiful, classically beautiful, and we

695
00:34:27,462 --> 00:34:29,701
Speaker 2: act as if they've been blessed by God because in

696
00:34:29,741 --> 00:34:31,221
Speaker 2: a way they have. We know their life will be

697
00:34:31,221 --> 00:34:32,901
Speaker 2: made a little bit easier because of it, but will

698
00:34:32,942 --> 00:34:34,781
Speaker 2: also probably in some ways be made a little bit

699
00:34:34,822 --> 00:34:38,942
Speaker 2: more annoying. I think that trying too hard is the

700
00:34:38,982 --> 00:34:42,902
Speaker 2: opposite of being charismatic, and often charismatic people might have

701
00:34:42,942 --> 00:34:44,781
Speaker 2: a certain set of gifts, but they won't have the

702
00:34:44,822 --> 00:34:47,422
Speaker 2: other set of gifts. They won't have the studiousness, they

703
00:34:47,462 --> 00:34:50,582
Speaker 2: won't have the intelligence necessarily, they won't have a whole

704
00:34:50,582 --> 00:34:52,942
Speaker 2: lot of things that non character You don't have it

705
00:34:53,741 --> 00:34:54,821
Speaker 2: worshiping it tell me.

706
00:34:56,062 --> 00:34:56,181
Speaker 3: So.

707
00:34:56,502 --> 00:35:00,462
Speaker 1: We spoke on Monday Show about main character syndrome and

708
00:35:00,502 --> 00:35:03,261
Speaker 1: how make character syndromes ruining public spaces because everybody's the

709
00:35:03,302 --> 00:35:06,142
Speaker 1: star of their own movie. When I was researching main

710
00:35:06,221 --> 00:35:09,542
Speaker 1: character syndrome, main character syndrome is the delusion that causes

711
00:35:09,661 --> 00:35:11,582
Speaker 1: you to behave in a very not self aware way

712
00:35:11,822 --> 00:35:15,781
Speaker 1: and act in a very imperious manner that feels like

713
00:35:15,781 --> 00:35:18,262
Speaker 1: everybody else is just like an extra in your life.

714
00:35:19,062 --> 00:35:23,701
Speaker 1: Main character energy is different. Main character energy is actually

715
00:35:23,862 --> 00:35:27,022
Speaker 1: just charisma. And the reason that you don't have it

716
00:35:27,102 --> 00:35:28,901
Speaker 1: and people will say, oh me, you're being so mean.

717
00:35:28,942 --> 00:35:30,142
Speaker 1: You know, I think that you're the best thing in

718
00:35:30,142 --> 00:35:34,982
Speaker 1: the whole world, is because you need a degree of

719
00:35:35,102 --> 00:35:39,462
Speaker 1: narcissism to have main character energy and to have charisma.

720
00:35:39,862 --> 00:35:44,302
Speaker 1: You need to believe that you deserve the attention of people,

721
00:35:44,661 --> 00:35:49,382
Speaker 1: and you are the least narcissistic, least main character energy

722
00:35:49,462 --> 00:35:52,261
Speaker 1: person that I know. And that's not a judgment or

723
00:35:52,261 --> 00:35:54,342
Speaker 1: an insult or. I mean it's a compliment. I think.

724
00:35:54,542 --> 00:35:57,022
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a compliment.

725
00:35:56,622 --> 00:36:00,462
Speaker 2: Because you're exceptionally accomplished to have a massive head.

726
00:36:00,822 --> 00:36:03,342
Speaker 3: But you know what, I want a study on. I

727
00:36:03,382 --> 00:36:05,502
Speaker 3: would like to fund a study on whether there's any

728
00:36:05,542 --> 00:36:10,062
Speaker 3: such thing as a charismatic twin because twins don't have

729
00:36:10,102 --> 00:36:12,301
Speaker 3: a level of enuling because they offering within a pair.

730
00:36:12,622 --> 00:36:15,062
Speaker 3: So I just wonder if it's like you kind of

731
00:36:15,622 --> 00:36:18,701
Speaker 3: interest if not that you feel like one half, but like, yeah,

732
00:36:18,701 --> 00:36:19,421
Speaker 3: that it kind of.

733
00:36:19,582 --> 00:36:22,181
Speaker 1: When the two of you are together, there's more of

734
00:36:22,221 --> 00:36:22,702
Speaker 1: a force.

735
00:36:23,422 --> 00:36:26,181
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe we have maybe together, Yeah, we have the

736
00:36:26,261 --> 00:36:26,701
Speaker 3: charisma of.

737
00:36:27,062 --> 00:36:29,821
Speaker 1: Being out with you on Saturday night. I noticed that

738
00:36:29,902 --> 00:36:34,062
Speaker 1: together you have more of a gravitational pull.

739
00:36:34,622 --> 00:36:35,142
Speaker 3: Interesting.

740
00:36:35,382 --> 00:36:38,421
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have one more question on this matter. It's

741
00:36:38,502 --> 00:36:40,701
Speaker 2: very hard to fake X factor in real life. Is

742
00:36:40,741 --> 00:36:42,901
Speaker 2: it possible to fake it on socials? So a bit

743
00:36:43,022 --> 00:36:44,501
Speaker 2: like the Wizard of Oz. You know how the Wizard

744
00:36:44,542 --> 00:36:46,582
Speaker 2: of Oz is just a little man behind the machine.

745
00:36:46,822 --> 00:36:49,782
Speaker 2: Do you reckon the influences and people who can build,

746
00:36:49,822 --> 00:36:54,422
Speaker 2: who are really online, can like create a charismatic presence

747
00:36:55,022 --> 00:36:56,502
Speaker 2: like almost behind the scenes.

748
00:36:56,661 --> 00:36:58,502
Speaker 3: That is so true, and that.

749
00:36:58,502 --> 00:37:00,782
Speaker 2: Therefore you don't need to be charismatic in person anymore.

750
00:37:00,822 --> 00:37:03,262
Speaker 2: You can just be charismatic in your words and images

751
00:37:03,302 --> 00:37:03,502
Speaker 2: on that.

752
00:37:03,542 --> 00:37:04,462
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

753
00:37:04,701 --> 00:37:07,462
Speaker 3: I think that's so true, and I think it also

754
00:37:07,582 --> 00:37:10,221
Speaker 3: explains by dating so complicated, because you can project an

755
00:37:10,221 --> 00:37:12,022
Speaker 3: image of charisma and have none of it when the

756
00:37:12,022 --> 00:37:14,341
Speaker 3: person meets you. I have a final question for you,

757
00:37:14,422 --> 00:37:16,542
Speaker 3: may or it's a work question. Do you think a

758
00:37:16,701 --> 00:37:20,422
Speaker 3: leader needs charisma, whether it's a leader of a team,

759
00:37:21,022 --> 00:37:23,502
Speaker 3: a CEO, someone who is like.

760
00:37:23,622 --> 00:37:26,462
Speaker 1: This study actually talked about that, and it's like it

761
00:37:26,582 --> 00:37:29,741
Speaker 1: certainly helps. We've learnt a lot more that brilliant Susan

762
00:37:29,781 --> 00:37:32,941
Speaker 1: kanebook Quiet about Introverts and the idea of we used

763
00:37:32,942 --> 00:37:35,462
Speaker 1: to think, because it was a fairly male alpha model,

764
00:37:35,741 --> 00:37:39,062
Speaker 1: that all leaders in business or in sports teams needed

765
00:37:39,062 --> 00:37:41,181
Speaker 1: to be extroverts and needed to be that kind of

766
00:37:41,261 --> 00:37:45,102
Speaker 1: alpha presence. We've now learned that there's a lot to

767
00:37:45,142 --> 00:37:51,542
Speaker 1: be said for introverted leadership. Introverted charisma is less flashy.

768
00:37:51,982 --> 00:37:54,781
Speaker 1: But the problem with too much charisma in a leader,

769
00:37:55,022 --> 00:37:57,022
Speaker 1: we're talking about that tipping point of where it becomes

770
00:37:57,022 --> 00:38:00,542
Speaker 1: a liability leaders that are too charismatic. And I've worked

771
00:38:00,542 --> 00:38:02,982
Speaker 1: with some of these in the past. They tend to

772
00:38:03,022 --> 00:38:06,022
Speaker 1: be very big on show, not great on execution.

773
00:38:06,902 --> 00:38:08,542
Speaker 3: So that's where it's so.

774
00:38:08,622 --> 00:38:10,902
Speaker 1: Interesting, this idea. And I know that I've been that

775
00:38:10,982 --> 00:38:14,781
Speaker 1: in the past where I have really been great at

776
00:38:14,781 --> 00:38:18,661
Speaker 1: talking came and exactly, but I haven't been good with

777
00:38:18,781 --> 00:38:22,901
Speaker 1: follow through. And I also think that there's probably you know,

778
00:38:22,942 --> 00:38:24,462
Speaker 1: the more I think about it in whole, I think

779
00:38:24,502 --> 00:38:29,701
Speaker 1: you've got charisma. I do, but I think that you

780
00:38:29,862 --> 00:38:32,661
Speaker 1: two no. I think what goes against it for you

781
00:38:32,701 --> 00:38:34,982
Speaker 1: to We often talk about how our upbringings are different.

782
00:38:36,302 --> 00:38:38,902
Speaker 1: I grew up with my parents saying you can do anything,

783
00:38:39,022 --> 00:38:41,861
Speaker 1: You're awesome. You grew up in a different way. It

784
00:38:41,902 --> 00:38:43,142
Speaker 1: was just different styles.

785
00:38:43,382 --> 00:38:45,102
Speaker 2: And I'm sure I did tell you that. When I

786
00:38:45,142 --> 00:38:47,221
Speaker 2: was on holiday, my dad read my book and he

787
00:38:47,302 --> 00:38:50,502
Speaker 2: said to me, there were like two really good passages

788
00:38:50,542 --> 00:38:52,582
Speaker 2: in the Oh.

789
00:38:52,422 --> 00:38:54,341
Speaker 1: My God, where if I When I write a book,

790
00:38:54,382 --> 00:38:57,462
Speaker 1: my mother writes a sonnet of written response. She doesn't

791
00:38:57,502 --> 00:39:02,261
Speaker 1: interpreting dances of excitement. And I think that part of charisma,

792
00:39:02,422 --> 00:39:06,381
Speaker 1: whether you fake it or whether you believe it, is

793
00:39:06,862 --> 00:39:10,382
Speaker 1: taking up space you know, feeling like you have the

794
00:39:10,502 --> 00:39:12,741
Speaker 1: right to take up space. And I think that that's

795
00:39:12,781 --> 00:39:16,982
Speaker 1: why so fewer women have it, because we're taught you

796
00:39:16,982 --> 00:39:18,502
Speaker 1: don't have the red. It's why so many men have

797
00:39:18,582 --> 00:39:22,022
Speaker 1: podcasts that go for three four hours and we're like, oh,

798
00:39:22,062 --> 00:39:24,582
Speaker 1: it's forty minutes too long, woman, it's forty two minutes.

799
00:39:24,622 --> 00:39:26,181
Speaker 1: Wo We don't want to take up too much of

800
00:39:26,221 --> 00:39:26,662
Speaker 1: their time.

801
00:39:27,342 --> 00:39:30,261
Speaker 2: After the break, it's recommendations time. And yes, I get

802
00:39:30,261 --> 00:39:33,582
Speaker 2: my ride of reply on some salt pat slander that

803
00:39:33,741 --> 00:39:37,221
Speaker 2: was flying around last week. Behind my back one unlimited

804
00:39:37,261 --> 00:39:40,862
Speaker 2: out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday

805
00:39:41,022 --> 00:39:44,462
Speaker 2: exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link in the

806
00:39:44,462 --> 00:39:46,861
Speaker 2: show notes to get us in your ears five days

807
00:39:46,902 --> 00:39:49,741
Speaker 2: a week. And a huge thank you to all our

808
00:39:49,781 --> 00:39:59,301
Speaker 2: current subscribers. Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something.

809
00:39:58,942 --> 00:40:02,261
Speaker 1: Casual, something fun. This is my best recommendation.

810
00:40:03,181 --> 00:40:06,742
Speaker 2: It's recommendation time. I'd like to bring something to the table. Yes,

811
00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:09,261
Speaker 2: while ire with the ways Burg you bitching about me?

812
00:40:09,342 --> 00:40:12,062
Speaker 3: Ye, yes, that's speerfectly you Jesse.

813
00:40:12,221 --> 00:40:15,102
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that awkward moment when a book that you

814
00:40:15,142 --> 00:40:18,462
Speaker 2: thought was perfectly pleasant and you recommended to all of

815
00:40:18,462 --> 00:40:21,942
Speaker 2: the the out Louders becomes the biggest story in the

816
00:40:21,942 --> 00:40:22,742
Speaker 2: world for a hot.

817
00:40:22,622 --> 00:40:24,062
Speaker 3: Minute, and you go hide in Europe.

818
00:40:24,302 --> 00:40:27,301
Speaker 2: I go hide somewhere else. And you said I wish

819
00:40:27,382 --> 00:40:29,062
Speaker 2: she was here. For a right of reply, I'm like,

820
00:40:29,102 --> 00:40:32,542
Speaker 2: I'm here. I stand by my recommendation.

821
00:40:32,622 --> 00:40:35,542
Speaker 3: Oh now you're getting defensive, Holly, I stand by it.

822
00:40:35,542 --> 00:40:36,382
Speaker 3: It's not true.

823
00:40:36,542 --> 00:40:39,342
Speaker 2: The book is good. The question for recommendation is is

824
00:40:39,382 --> 00:40:41,181
Speaker 2: this a good book? Have we said what the book is?

825
00:40:41,261 --> 00:40:41,341
Speaker 3: Oh?

826
00:40:41,422 --> 00:40:44,341
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, the story and question out louders. We're going

827
00:40:44,422 --> 00:40:46,502
Speaker 2: to go over excited, go to ge ahead of myself.

828
00:40:47,102 --> 00:40:49,701
Speaker 2: If you go, it's called The Saltpath by raynal Wynn.

829
00:40:50,022 --> 00:40:52,102
Speaker 2: And many of you will know that one of the

830
00:40:52,102 --> 00:40:54,142
Speaker 2: biggest stories around the world in the last few weeks

831
00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:56,821
Speaker 2: has been that this it was very much presented as

832
00:40:57,062 --> 00:41:00,861
Speaker 2: a factual memoir nonfiction, and that although many of the

833
00:41:00,862 --> 00:41:03,422
Speaker 2: facts in there are true, there's a lot of misrepresentation

834
00:41:03,542 --> 00:41:09,142
Speaker 2: in there. I obviously can see that. But does the

835
00:41:09,181 --> 00:41:10,502
Speaker 2: books stand is a great book?

836
00:41:10,582 --> 00:41:10,781
Speaker 3: Yes?

837
00:41:10,781 --> 00:41:11,421
Speaker 2: One hundred percent?

838
00:41:11,661 --> 00:41:13,261
Speaker 3: Does an impact how you feel about it?

839
00:41:13,342 --> 00:41:15,582
Speaker 2: You know, it's really interesting because we talk about this

840
00:41:15,661 --> 00:41:19,142
Speaker 2: a lot, but you know, when you really enjoy something,

841
00:41:19,622 --> 00:41:23,022
Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse everything about that person.

842
00:41:23,062 --> 00:41:25,062
Speaker 2: So even before all this blew up, on are the

843
00:41:25,102 --> 00:41:26,902
Speaker 2: reasons why The Salt Path is a great book. And

844
00:41:26,982 --> 00:41:29,382
Speaker 2: I listened to it actually, and Rayna Winn narrates it,

845
00:41:29,422 --> 00:41:31,661
Speaker 2: so I feel like I've spent many hours with her

846
00:41:31,701 --> 00:41:35,062
Speaker 2: hearing her story. A lot of the decisions they make

847
00:41:35,102 --> 00:41:38,181
Speaker 2: in that book are absolutely batshit. So it's not like

848
00:41:38,261 --> 00:41:40,342
Speaker 2: you listen to the whole thing all the way going

849
00:41:40,422 --> 00:41:43,702
Speaker 2: like you guys are amazing, like your hero what heroes

850
00:41:43,741 --> 00:41:45,381
Speaker 2: you are. There are a lot of decisions they make

851
00:41:45,422 --> 00:41:50,262
Speaker 2: in there that seem irresponsible, that seem provocative, that seem

852
00:41:50,582 --> 00:41:52,982
Speaker 2: unnecessarily difficult and harsh.

853
00:41:53,102 --> 00:41:55,142
Speaker 1: Are they the lies in Well?

854
00:41:55,382 --> 00:41:57,341
Speaker 2: I don't know that they are, because one of the

855
00:41:57,382 --> 00:42:00,382
Speaker 2: main ones is obviously the two big things that everybody's

856
00:42:00,382 --> 00:42:02,781
Speaker 2: talking about about that are the circumstances that made these

857
00:42:02,822 --> 00:42:05,062
Speaker 2: people homeless, Because the basic premise of the book is

858
00:42:05,102 --> 00:42:07,902
Speaker 2: that this middle class, middle aged couple whose kids are

859
00:42:07,942 --> 00:42:11,221
Speaker 2: off at UNI find them suddenly homeless because they've been

860
00:42:11,302 --> 00:42:13,542
Speaker 2: ripped off. Now, in the book, there is not a

861
00:42:13,582 --> 00:42:16,582
Speaker 2: lot of detail about that, and that even when you're

862
00:42:16,622 --> 00:42:18,342
Speaker 2: reading it at the time without any of this knowledge

863
00:42:18,382 --> 00:42:21,781
Speaker 2: is a bit mysterious. You're thinking there must be more

864
00:42:21,781 --> 00:42:25,302
Speaker 2: to this story. But maybe legals, you know, maybe legals.

865
00:42:25,661 --> 00:42:28,742
Speaker 2: They find themselves homeless, so obviously knowing that they actually

866
00:42:28,822 --> 00:42:31,742
Speaker 2: found themselves homeless if the observer reporting is to be believed,

867
00:42:31,781 --> 00:42:34,261
Speaker 2: and I absolutely believe that it is, because that's one

868
00:42:34,302 --> 00:42:35,942
Speaker 2: of the things that needs to be noted about that

869
00:42:36,382 --> 00:42:38,781
Speaker 2: is that is a very high status newspaper. This is

870
00:42:38,822 --> 00:42:41,582
Speaker 2: not trashy investigation. It would have had to cross a

871
00:42:41,582 --> 00:42:43,902
Speaker 2: lot of high bars to get that story to the page.

872
00:42:44,822 --> 00:42:47,342
Speaker 2: Is that the reason they were homeless was actually because

873
00:42:47,382 --> 00:42:51,301
Speaker 2: she embezzled money, borrowed money to try and sort that out,

874
00:42:51,342 --> 00:42:52,542
Speaker 2: and that all blew up in a mess.

875
00:42:52,661 --> 00:42:54,422
Speaker 1: I have a question, do you feel betrayed?

876
00:42:54,942 --> 00:42:57,542
Speaker 2: No, I don't feel betrayed. I really enjoyed the book.

877
00:42:57,701 --> 00:42:59,461
Speaker 2: Just because I really enjoyed the book, and I follow

878
00:42:59,542 --> 00:43:02,102
Speaker 2: raina Win on Instagram because obviously I became interested in her.

879
00:43:02,422 --> 00:43:05,062
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I kind of worshiped her foot,

880
00:43:05,221 --> 00:43:07,782
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? I just really enjoyed

881
00:43:07,781 --> 00:43:10,142
Speaker 2: the book. The other big thing that people feel very

882
00:43:10,181 --> 00:43:13,582
Speaker 2: upset about is that moth who isn't really called moth,

883
00:43:13,622 --> 00:43:18,421
Speaker 2: but that moth is battling a difficult disease, and they're

884
00:43:18,462 --> 00:43:21,701
Speaker 2: saying that she says that walking cured him. I will

885
00:43:21,822 --> 00:43:24,221
Speaker 2: argue that is not what she says. She at no

886
00:43:24,302 --> 00:43:26,781
Speaker 2: point in the book says that walking cured him. She

887
00:43:26,982 --> 00:43:29,982
Speaker 2: just says that actually his symptoms were alleviated by the

888
00:43:30,022 --> 00:43:34,382
Speaker 2: intense physical activity. Now, I know how complicated and thorny

889
00:43:34,422 --> 00:43:37,582
Speaker 2: that kind of irresponsible, like throwing away on a line

890
00:43:37,661 --> 00:43:39,661
Speaker 2: like that is, and that a lot of people are

891
00:43:39,661 --> 00:43:42,582
Speaker 2: saying that couldn't possibly be true. But maybe that was

892
00:43:42,622 --> 00:43:45,862
Speaker 2: their experience. There are lots of experiences like that from people.

893
00:43:46,022 --> 00:43:48,142
Speaker 2: I think they're allowed to own it. So I stand

894
00:43:48,142 --> 00:43:52,221
Speaker 2: by my recommendation. But I'm not saying I stand by her,

895
00:43:52,382 --> 00:43:54,942
Speaker 2: you know them, like I would go into five for them.

896
00:43:55,022 --> 00:43:57,342
Speaker 2: It's really the thing that I can't stop thinking about

897
00:43:57,342 --> 00:43:59,381
Speaker 2: the most though, is it's like that book's like seven

898
00:43:59,462 --> 00:44:02,982
Speaker 2: or eight years old. It's what kind of psyche it

899
00:44:03,102 --> 00:44:07,261
Speaker 2: must take, yes, to go from an unknown book to

900
00:44:07,502 --> 00:44:09,781
Speaker 2: kind of a superstar in the literary world in a

901
00:44:09,862 --> 00:44:12,381
Speaker 2: relatively short space of time, build a massive following, turn

902
00:44:12,422 --> 00:44:14,821
Speaker 2: that into your life, write two follow up books, sell

903
00:44:14,862 --> 00:44:18,142
Speaker 2: the movie rights, all of those things happening while you

904
00:44:18,261 --> 00:44:21,662
Speaker 2: knew that this was a ticking bomb, Like she must

905
00:44:21,661 --> 00:44:23,661
Speaker 2: have known. Who do you have to be to live

906
00:44:23,701 --> 00:44:24,702
Speaker 2: with that?

907
00:44:23,942 --> 00:44:26,861
Speaker 3: And the story now I started with a tip off.

908
00:44:26,902 --> 00:44:28,742
Speaker 3: We still don't know who that person is. That person

909
00:44:28,822 --> 00:44:30,902
Speaker 3: may be revealed at some point, but I listened to

910
00:44:30,942 --> 00:44:34,502
Speaker 3: the observer journalists talk about it, and that tip off

911
00:44:34,542 --> 00:44:36,582
Speaker 3: I think sounds very very close to the source. So

912
00:44:36,622 --> 00:44:39,142
Speaker 3: I think that there were people around her who knew

913
00:44:39,181 --> 00:44:40,982
Speaker 3: these things, and you would just not sleep.

914
00:44:41,261 --> 00:44:42,302
Speaker 1: Did you watch the movie?

915
00:44:42,422 --> 00:44:44,301
Speaker 2: We have watched the movie. I was going to, and

916
00:44:44,302 --> 00:44:45,941
Speaker 2: we were going to. I just haven't got around to it.

917
00:44:46,142 --> 00:44:49,622
Speaker 2: I probably still will. I found it the whole thing fascinating.

918
00:44:49,661 --> 00:44:51,062
Speaker 1: So you won't be one of those people who were

919
00:44:51,062 --> 00:44:52,782
Speaker 1: asking for a refund from the publisher.

920
00:44:53,462 --> 00:44:54,221
Speaker 3: She won't be suing that.

921
00:44:54,302 --> 00:44:56,422
Speaker 2: In fact, before just before this blew up, I told

922
00:44:56,462 --> 00:44:57,982
Speaker 2: Brent that was the book you should read on holiday,

923
00:44:58,022 --> 00:44:59,661
Speaker 2: and he was halfway through it when it all blew up,

924
00:44:59,661 --> 00:45:02,142
Speaker 2: and I was like, look, you're so topical, you're so relevant,

925
00:45:02,221 --> 00:45:04,661
Speaker 2: look at you. Anyway, I have a quick recommendation, and

926
00:45:04,661 --> 00:45:06,342
Speaker 2: I have talk to talk about quick recommendation before I

927
00:45:06,382 --> 00:45:08,301
Speaker 2: go and it's a musical recommendation.

928
00:45:08,622 --> 00:45:11,022
Speaker 3: Yes for a music, no for an artist.

929
00:45:13,022 --> 00:45:15,702
Speaker 2: You know, I've talked before on the show about how

930
00:45:16,102 --> 00:45:18,502
Speaker 2: it's really hard to discover new music. I find it

931
00:45:18,542 --> 00:45:21,062
Speaker 2: really hard to discover me. And when I was away

932
00:45:21,181 --> 00:45:22,741
Speaker 2: and I was with my friends in London and we

933
00:45:22,741 --> 00:45:25,062
Speaker 2: were watching Glastonbury and you know, I love the fact

934
00:45:25,062 --> 00:45:26,941
Speaker 2: that Glastonbury has broken up into bits and you can

935
00:45:26,982 --> 00:45:29,102
Speaker 2: just sit in Britain and watch it on BBC. I

936
00:45:29,181 --> 00:45:31,542
Speaker 2: view just in segments. It's so good. I think I'm

937
00:45:31,542 --> 00:45:34,261
Speaker 2: sure you can do it on YouTube. And I was

938
00:45:34,302 --> 00:45:36,102
Speaker 2: watching this woman that I did not know, And it's

939
00:45:36,142 --> 00:45:38,382
Speaker 2: hard making a musical recommendation because a bit like you

940
00:45:38,462 --> 00:45:41,462
Speaker 2: discovering drive to survive fourteen years after. Like some people

941
00:45:41,462 --> 00:45:43,982
Speaker 2: will be like, uh, yeah, that's my favorite artist. I've

942
00:45:44,022 --> 00:45:46,902
Speaker 2: been listening to her for ages. Is it Charlie XCX,

943
00:45:47,701 --> 00:45:51,902
Speaker 2: no me or even I know Charlie XCX. Have you

944
00:45:51,982 --> 00:45:55,301
Speaker 2: heard of ce Maat never She Sea Matt is an

945
00:45:55,382 --> 00:45:59,181
Speaker 2: Irish artist, a singer songwriter. I guess you'd call her.

946
00:45:59,422 --> 00:46:02,661
Speaker 2: The reason she's called Seamat is her name is Kiara

947
00:46:02,862 --> 00:46:05,462
Speaker 2: Mary Alice Thompson. She's from Dublin and so those are

948
00:46:05,462 --> 00:46:07,982
Speaker 2: her initials. And when we play you a little bit

949
00:46:08,022 --> 00:46:10,142
Speaker 2: of this song, you either will have heard it because

950
00:46:10,142 --> 00:46:13,062
Speaker 2: it's got a hook that's all over TikTok, or you won't,

951
00:46:13,102 --> 00:46:15,262
Speaker 2: but you won't be able to stop singing it anyway.

952
00:46:15,302 --> 00:46:17,742
Speaker 2: This song is called take a Sexy Picture, and the

953
00:46:17,822 --> 00:46:19,982
Speaker 2: chorus is about like take a sexy picture of me

954
00:46:20,102 --> 00:46:22,222
Speaker 2: and make me look fifteen, and it's just so funny

955
00:46:22,261 --> 00:46:24,022
Speaker 2: and so smart. Listen.

956
00:46:24,781 --> 00:46:27,381
Speaker 1: I did the butcher, I did the baker, I did

957
00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:29,102
Speaker 1: the hole and the family maker.

958
00:46:29,422 --> 00:46:34,941
Speaker 3: I did school you see, I did leg ting.

959
00:46:35,502 --> 00:46:38,901
Speaker 1: I've heard this on TikTok and yeah, I love her.

960
00:46:38,942 --> 00:46:41,542
Speaker 1: She's a little bit sort of a del Amy Winehouse.

961
00:46:41,622 --> 00:46:43,821
Speaker 1: She's got that kind of with a little bit of

962
00:46:43,862 --> 00:46:44,422
Speaker 1: Kate Bush.

963
00:46:44,622 --> 00:46:45,261
Speaker 2: She's so good.

964
00:46:46,342 --> 00:46:48,181
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm going to listen to her. I'm

965
00:46:48,261 --> 00:46:49,542
Speaker 3: very impressed by that recommendation.

966
00:46:49,741 --> 00:46:51,821
Speaker 2: Her music is so good. Well, the best thing about

967
00:46:51,862 --> 00:46:54,261
Speaker 2: Glastonbury I thought this year was just the variety of

968
00:46:54,302 --> 00:46:58,421
Speaker 2: female young female performers from your Charlie to your Sea

969
00:46:58,462 --> 00:47:01,741
Speaker 2: Mats too, your Olivia Rodriguez to Doci to whoever, and

970
00:47:01,741 --> 00:47:04,741
Speaker 2: they're all singing about life as a young woman like

971
00:47:04,741 --> 00:47:08,502
Speaker 2: they're talking about online dating and Instagram and like, you know,

972
00:47:08,582 --> 00:47:11,502
Speaker 2: porn culture. And as she's got another one which you

973
00:47:11,542 --> 00:47:15,701
Speaker 2: will like, Jesse Stevens about online hatred called Jamie Oliver

974
00:47:15,781 --> 00:47:18,462
Speaker 2: petrol Station and it's about how much she hates Jamie

975
00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:21,781
Speaker 2: Oliver and yet she knows how irrational that is. And

976
00:47:22,102 --> 00:47:25,301
Speaker 2: the chorus is my new mantra is Okay, don't be

977
00:47:25,342 --> 00:47:25,822
Speaker 2: a bitch.

978
00:47:27,781 --> 00:47:30,182
Speaker 3: You wouldn't like this, oh.

979
00:47:33,261 --> 00:47:38,142
Speaker 2: Nine interests. Anyway, she's my new recommendation, ce Matt.

980
00:47:38,062 --> 00:47:40,062
Speaker 3: I have a niche recommendation, but it's going to be

981
00:47:40,102 --> 00:47:43,582
Speaker 3: a very helpful one to a certain segment of our audience.

982
00:47:43,781 --> 00:47:46,622
Speaker 3: And it is a new app, and it's called my Comms.

983
00:47:47,342 --> 00:47:50,022
Speaker 3: So if you have someone in your life who lives

984
00:47:50,022 --> 00:47:52,821
Speaker 3: with a disability. My cousin Simon, for example, he's got

985
00:47:52,902 --> 00:47:56,301
Speaker 3: an intellectual disability, this is for him. Or you might

986
00:47:56,302 --> 00:47:59,582
Speaker 3: have a child with autism or perhaps the language delay,

987
00:47:59,781 --> 00:48:04,702
Speaker 3: you will know the importance of communication and how hard

988
00:48:04,822 --> 00:48:08,661
Speaker 3: it can be because communication is literally your connection to

989
00:48:08,701 --> 00:48:12,102
Speaker 3: the world. You become so isolated if people don't understand

990
00:48:12,422 --> 00:48:16,381
Speaker 3: things like your preferences or saying no, like those things

991
00:48:16,422 --> 00:48:20,341
Speaker 3: are critical to people's agency, right, and the frustration that

992
00:48:20,382 --> 00:48:24,142
Speaker 3: comes with not being able to say those things is immense,

993
00:48:24,142 --> 00:48:26,062
Speaker 3: and you've felt that if you are close to someone

994
00:48:26,062 --> 00:48:29,502
Speaker 3: who struggles with language. So this app what happens is

995
00:48:29,542 --> 00:48:31,142
Speaker 3: you open it up and I've got it on my phone,

996
00:48:31,142 --> 00:48:33,702
Speaker 3: and Simon's got it on his phone, and it offers

997
00:48:33,741 --> 00:48:37,502
Speaker 3: a calendar of his week, of his day, and I

998
00:48:37,582 --> 00:48:40,861
Speaker 3: will put things in like Okay, on Saturday, we're going

999
00:48:40,862 --> 00:48:43,862
Speaker 3: to see this musical and then we're getting typhood. Now

1000
00:48:44,022 --> 00:48:47,181
Speaker 3: they're pictures and they're real pictures. They're not cartoons that

1001
00:48:47,221 --> 00:48:51,741
Speaker 3: make Simon feel like he's for they're photos. The creators

1002
00:48:51,862 --> 00:48:54,382
Speaker 3: who I spoke to, they reached out their out loudders.

1003
00:48:54,701 --> 00:48:58,181
Speaker 3: They said, with Simon, there's something called object permanence. So

1004
00:48:58,582 --> 00:49:01,222
Speaker 3: when we were touring, for example, I would get forty

1005
00:49:01,221 --> 00:49:03,022
Speaker 3: calls from Simon a day saying where are you? Where

1006
00:49:03,022 --> 00:49:05,102
Speaker 3: are you when you're home? When you're home? And it's

1007
00:49:05,142 --> 00:49:10,102
Speaker 3: because it's like a cognitive milestone to understand that, even

1008
00:49:10,142 --> 00:49:13,341
Speaker 3: though you can't see something, yes there.

1009
00:49:13,661 --> 00:49:16,102
Speaker 1: And that's often when little children, I was reminded with

1010
00:49:16,181 --> 00:49:19,142
Speaker 1: this with Lunar start getting there. They think they're stranger

1011
00:49:19,261 --> 00:49:21,981
Speaker 1: data because when Mum's not here, where is mum?

1012
00:49:22,102 --> 00:49:24,702
Speaker 3: So what it does is it says he checks his diary,

1013
00:49:24,741 --> 00:49:27,142
Speaker 3: and it says Jesse's in Perth, Jesse's in Perth, Jesse's

1014
00:49:27,142 --> 00:49:28,422
Speaker 3: in Perth. And then it has a thing in his

1015
00:49:28,542 --> 00:49:31,781
Speaker 3: diary that has like airplane Jesse's home from Perth. And

1016
00:49:31,822 --> 00:49:35,222
Speaker 3: therefore I don't have to explain the thing every day.

1017
00:49:35,582 --> 00:49:38,861
Speaker 3: It's also got choices, so you know, these women have

1018
00:49:38,902 --> 00:49:41,982
Speaker 3: worked with kids who are nonverbal and they say, oh,

1019
00:49:42,022 --> 00:49:43,622
Speaker 3: do you know what music they like? And their parents

1020
00:49:43,622 --> 00:49:46,462
Speaker 3: are like, oh, don't really have a preference, and they're like, oh,

1021
00:49:46,502 --> 00:49:49,102
Speaker 3: he has a preference, and he probably wants to let

1022
00:49:49,142 --> 00:49:52,181
Speaker 3: you know that he hates that song Holly. So what

1023
00:49:52,181 --> 00:49:55,062
Speaker 3: it has is like choices about whether it's yes or no,

1024
00:49:55,221 --> 00:49:58,822
Speaker 3: or whether it's like I actually feel like Schnitzel tonight

1025
00:49:58,942 --> 00:50:00,341
Speaker 3: or I feel like watching this show.

1026
00:50:00,622 --> 00:50:01,902
Speaker 1: Firstly, can kids use it?

1027
00:50:02,142 --> 00:50:02,381
Speaker 3: Yes?

1028
00:50:02,661 --> 00:50:06,221
Speaker 1: And what's the level of ability do you need to

1029
00:50:06,221 --> 00:50:07,502
Speaker 1: be able to read to use it?

1030
00:50:07,822 --> 00:50:10,502
Speaker 3: I don't know. So Simon can't read, but I can

1031
00:50:10,502 --> 00:50:12,542
Speaker 3: set it up on my end and it's on his phone,

1032
00:50:12,542 --> 00:50:14,021
Speaker 3: so all he needs to do is open the app.

1033
00:50:14,502 --> 00:50:17,142
Speaker 3: And then it's also got something called tasks that like

1034
00:50:17,622 --> 00:50:20,821
Speaker 3: for some people who are autistic or some people with disabilities,

1035
00:50:20,982 --> 00:50:23,182
Speaker 3: things like brushing your teeth, getting dressed in the morning,

1036
00:50:23,221 --> 00:50:25,982
Speaker 3: helpful mornings. It has those tasks and they're set there

1037
00:50:26,022 --> 00:50:28,782
Speaker 3: every day. That's like these are the steps in pitches.

1038
00:50:29,022 --> 00:50:31,942
Speaker 3: So it's like first you get your toothbrush, you put

1039
00:50:32,142 --> 00:50:35,062
Speaker 3: toothpaste on it, you did it, and that gives these

1040
00:50:35,582 --> 00:50:40,302
Speaker 3: people independence rather than you having to like talk every day.

1041
00:50:40,502 --> 00:50:44,022
Speaker 3: So it's brilliant to Australian out louder is. One is

1042
00:50:44,022 --> 00:50:47,062
Speaker 3: a speech pathologist. Another one worked in in schools and

1043
00:50:47,261 --> 00:50:49,462
Speaker 3: knows a lot about behavior and they could see that

1044
00:50:49,462 --> 00:50:53,462
Speaker 3: there was something missing in communication, and they've created this app.

1045
00:50:53,661 --> 00:50:55,022
Speaker 3: You can find it on the App Store now. It's

1046
00:50:55,062 --> 00:51:00,381
Speaker 3: just launched. It's called my Comms, One Word, my COO MMS.

1047
00:50:59,862 --> 00:51:00,702
Speaker 1: And is it free?

1048
00:51:00,942 --> 00:51:01,261
Speaker 3: It's not.

1049
00:51:01,422 --> 00:51:03,942
Speaker 1: So it's I'm glad it's not, because I was gonna say,

1050
00:51:03,982 --> 00:51:05,582
Speaker 1: how can we support these creators.

1051
00:51:05,661 --> 00:51:08,542
Speaker 3: So what they've said is that like a year's subscription,

1052
00:51:08,582 --> 00:51:10,221
Speaker 3: which I think is about a hundre in forty nine

1053
00:51:10,261 --> 00:51:12,502
Speaker 3: a year is the cost of a session with a

1054
00:51:12,542 --> 00:51:15,941
Speaker 3: speech pathologist. So it's like it's more accessible to people

1055
00:51:15,982 --> 00:51:18,102
Speaker 3: who are coming up against this friction every day. Or

1056
00:51:18,142 --> 00:51:20,781
Speaker 3: it's fifteen dollars a month, so even try it for

1057
00:51:20,822 --> 00:51:22,701
Speaker 3: a month, see what you think. But I've been using

1058
00:51:22,701 --> 00:51:25,582
Speaker 3: it with Simon and it's made such a difference. And

1059
00:51:25,622 --> 00:51:29,421
Speaker 3: they said that with adults with these disabilities, Simon has

1060
00:51:29,502 --> 00:51:32,821
Speaker 3: always resented the cartoons. He's resented the cartoons that have

1061
00:51:32,862 --> 00:51:33,701
Speaker 3: angry faces and.

1062
00:51:33,622 --> 00:51:35,942
Speaker 2: Everything because a lot of them are like that.

1063
00:51:36,181 --> 00:51:39,142
Speaker 3: Yes, he's like, I'm not ten and you're treating me

1064
00:51:39,302 --> 00:51:41,822
Speaker 3: like a child, whereas this is it treats him like an.

1065
00:51:41,701 --> 00:51:43,262
Speaker 1: Adult for teenagers as well.

1066
00:51:43,342 --> 00:51:46,781
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it also just facilitates us understanding each other.

1067
00:51:46,902 --> 00:51:48,542
Speaker 1: Can we put a link in the show notes and

1068
00:51:48,542 --> 00:51:52,221
Speaker 1: out louders, let's spread the word far and wide, and

1069
00:51:52,342 --> 00:51:54,941
Speaker 1: anyone in your life that you think could benefit from this,

1070
00:51:55,661 --> 00:51:56,382
Speaker 1: please share it.

1071
00:51:56,422 --> 00:51:59,702
Speaker 3: In it even like NDAs providers in schools like it

1072
00:51:59,822 --> 00:52:02,142
Speaker 3: could make a really, really big difference. There's nothing like it,

1073
00:52:02,261 --> 00:52:04,862
Speaker 3: so go check it out. Maya, what's your recommendation.

1074
00:52:05,342 --> 00:52:08,462
Speaker 1: I know that I'm late to this party, and I

1075
00:52:08,502 --> 00:52:11,142
Speaker 1: think you've recommended it before, but I've got to talk

1076
00:52:11,181 --> 00:52:12,302
Speaker 1: about drive to survive.

1077
00:52:12,542 --> 00:52:15,622
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

1078
00:52:16,181 --> 00:52:18,901
Speaker 1: Because it's actually all they want to talk about and

1079
00:52:18,942 --> 00:52:20,502
Speaker 1: I don't know how it started.

1080
00:52:21,022 --> 00:52:22,022
Speaker 3: It started with me.

1081
00:52:22,462 --> 00:52:24,222
Speaker 2: Jesse recommended it on the show.

1082
00:52:24,342 --> 00:52:26,221
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but I don't listen to your recommendation.

1083
00:52:26,542 --> 00:52:29,381
Speaker 3: It was Luca and I saying all we do. Luna

1084
00:52:29,382 --> 00:52:31,502
Speaker 3: couldn't sleep the other night, and she came downstairs and

1085
00:52:31,542 --> 00:52:34,181
Speaker 3: she said, watching cars. She thinks we watch cars when

1086
00:52:34,181 --> 00:52:36,941
Speaker 3: she goes to sleep. And then the Ferrari team came

1087
00:52:37,062 --> 00:52:39,021
Speaker 3: up and she looked at it and she goes red

1088
00:52:39,221 --> 00:52:41,741
Speaker 3: like Simon, like Simon wiggle, and I was like, great

1089
00:52:41,822 --> 00:52:42,502
Speaker 3: small talk.

1090
00:52:43,942 --> 00:52:44,782
Speaker 2: Shows were across.

1091
00:52:44,902 --> 00:52:46,942
Speaker 1: Well, I know, but the ven diagram of shows that

1092
00:52:47,022 --> 00:52:50,902
Speaker 1: I like with either of you bitches is very small.

1093
00:52:50,982 --> 00:52:54,542
Speaker 1: But I now live with two men. My daughter's moved

1094
00:52:54,542 --> 00:52:57,301
Speaker 1: out of the house. Like I like spending time with them.

1095
00:52:57,622 --> 00:53:00,221
Speaker 1: It's hard to find things to watch together, right, And

1096
00:53:00,741 --> 00:53:04,262
Speaker 1: my son's sixteen, my husband's older than that. And weirdly,

1097
00:53:04,502 --> 00:53:07,302
Speaker 1: I'm from such an F one family. Yes you are, father,

1098
00:53:07,862 --> 00:53:11,181
Speaker 1: my eldest son. My husband all obsessed with Formula one.

1099
00:53:11,302 --> 00:53:13,062
Speaker 1: I spent years and THEWS and news and decades my

1100
00:53:13,102 --> 00:53:17,181
Speaker 1: whole life going to sleep with this noise real as

1101
00:53:17,221 --> 00:53:19,981
Speaker 1: my husband watched the Formula One late into the night

1102
00:53:20,422 --> 00:53:24,382
Speaker 1: and I always fucking hated it. Oh my god, drama.

1103
00:53:24,661 --> 00:53:25,982
Speaker 1: Why didn't anyone tell me?

1104
00:53:26,062 --> 00:53:27,902
Speaker 3: Okay, Holly, this is you've been away.

1105
00:53:28,142 --> 00:53:30,982
Speaker 1: It's one hundred million. I started at season one.

1106
00:53:31,022 --> 00:53:32,301
Speaker 3: We can get Holly on board with this.

1107
00:53:32,542 --> 00:53:33,982
Speaker 2: I have watched it, watched it.

1108
00:53:34,261 --> 00:53:35,741
Speaker 3: You've already watched it, so we're gonna get I haven't

1109
00:53:35,741 --> 00:53:37,622
Speaker 3: watched all of it. You on board with our plan,

1110
00:53:37,942 --> 00:53:40,422
Speaker 3: which is we want to go to the Formula one

1111
00:53:40,741 --> 00:53:43,781
Speaker 3: and so we need tag to watch brand. We need

1112
00:53:43,822 --> 00:53:47,342
Speaker 3: a very expensive We'll go to Dubai, We'll go to Moms,

1113
00:53:47,422 --> 00:53:51,822
Speaker 3: We'll go to one Melbourne spa Monaco.

1114
00:53:52,062 --> 00:53:55,022
Speaker 2: Thing that's amusing about this and it's fine to be

1115
00:53:55,062 --> 00:53:57,022
Speaker 2: late to the party. I'm frequently late to the party

1116
00:53:57,062 --> 00:54:00,382
Speaker 2: on many things. Is that that's such a phenomena that

1117
00:54:00,502 --> 00:54:02,862
Speaker 2: show that now every sport has one of those shows.

1118
00:54:02,902 --> 00:54:04,542
Speaker 2: You know that, right, Like so golf has one and

1119
00:54:04,582 --> 00:54:09,462
Speaker 2: Polo has Remember Harry tried, because it literally transformed the sport,

1120
00:54:09,741 --> 00:54:12,342
Speaker 2: and it literally transformed the people who like the sport.

1121
00:54:12,382 --> 00:54:14,382
Speaker 2: And now that's why, you know, just a couple of

1122
00:54:14,422 --> 00:54:16,502
Speaker 2: months ago at the Melbourne one. Now there's a massive

1123
00:54:16,502 --> 00:54:19,022
Speaker 2: fashion show on the first day and every influencer in

1124
00:54:19,062 --> 00:54:19,942
Speaker 2: all of Australia.

1125
00:54:20,022 --> 00:54:21,781
Speaker 3: Did you see the Christian Horning.

1126
00:54:21,661 --> 00:54:24,301
Speaker 1: Is he got sacked?

1127
00:54:25,462 --> 00:54:26,861
Speaker 3: So we're going to have a spinoff. We used to

1128
00:54:26,862 --> 00:54:31,022
Speaker 3: have Parenting Out Loud, Now we're going to have Formula one.

1129
00:54:32,502 --> 00:54:35,062
Speaker 1: I have so many questions about why Jerry Horner only

1130
00:54:35,062 --> 00:54:37,462
Speaker 1: wears white and what's happened to.

1131
00:54:37,422 --> 00:54:38,382
Speaker 3: That spice girl?

1132
00:54:38,502 --> 00:54:41,661
Speaker 2: But she only wears white because of the spiritual purity.

1133
00:54:41,942 --> 00:54:44,501
Speaker 1: So then I had a really long conversation. Oh Toto Wolf,

1134
00:54:44,542 --> 00:54:46,542
Speaker 1: don't even get me started. I love him and Gunter

1135
00:54:47,462 --> 00:54:49,181
Speaker 1: Justice forgot I think Guntera.

1136
00:54:48,902 --> 00:54:49,582
Speaker 2: Just got sacked.

1137
00:54:50,221 --> 00:54:55,861
Speaker 1: Just recommending dry a little flicks seven seasons A bit

1138
00:54:55,902 --> 00:54:58,422
Speaker 1: of feedback from Netflix a little bit confusing because they

1139
00:54:58,422 --> 00:55:00,861
Speaker 1: don't number the episode, so a couple of times I

1140
00:55:00,942 --> 00:55:03,662
Speaker 1: found myself back at the beginning of a different season.

1141
00:55:04,502 --> 00:55:07,102
Speaker 1: So you got to stay sharp, utterly obsessed.

1142
00:55:07,382 --> 00:55:11,341
Speaker 2: That's it. That's officially it. TV shows from fourteen years

1143
00:55:11,342 --> 00:55:14,301
Speaker 2: ago Out Loudest. Thank you for listening to all our

1144
00:55:14,342 --> 00:55:16,422
Speaker 2: shows this week. It has been delightful for me to

1145
00:55:16,422 --> 00:55:18,062
Speaker 2: be back with you and delightful to be back with

1146
00:55:18,102 --> 00:55:20,142
Speaker 2: these bitches. Of course, we are going to be back

1147
00:55:20,142 --> 00:55:22,781
Speaker 2: in your ears on Monday, Mina and Jesse read this out.

1148
00:55:23,062 --> 00:55:25,742
Speaker 3: A big thank you to our team Group executive producer

1149
00:55:25,902 --> 00:55:28,982
Speaker 3: Ruth Devine. She is absolutely brimming with charisma, and now

1150
00:55:28,982 --> 00:55:30,261
Speaker 3: that I've said about you, I have to say it

1151
00:55:30,261 --> 00:55:31,142
Speaker 3: about everything.

1152
00:55:30,902 --> 00:55:31,702
Speaker 1: That's actually true.

1153
00:55:31,741 --> 00:55:33,582
Speaker 2: She is charismatic.

1154
00:55:33,661 --> 00:55:37,862
Speaker 3: She is our audio producer Tree pain Is, Leah Porgies

1155
00:55:37,942 --> 00:55:42,022
Speaker 3: also incredibly cours you know you know Tree Maya. Keep reading. Sorry.

1156
00:55:42,142 --> 00:55:45,862
Speaker 1: Credits video producers Josh Green. I wouldn't say he's charismatic,

1157
00:55:45,942 --> 00:55:50,942
Speaker 1: but he's lovely. He's so lovely. Guys be charismatic is

1158
00:55:50,982 --> 00:55:53,181
Speaker 1: not the best true Well, it's a burden that only

1159
00:55:53,261 --> 00:55:57,181
Speaker 1: some of us can carry. Our junior content producers are

1160
00:55:57,221 --> 00:55:58,262
Speaker 1: Coco and Tessa.

1161
00:55:58,661 --> 00:56:01,181
Speaker 2: I'm not commenting, not on whether or not they have charisma.

1162
00:56:01,342 --> 00:56:03,261
Speaker 3: No, I think that could be an hr issue is

1163
00:56:03,382 --> 00:56:07,422
Speaker 3: waiting to happen out louders. On yesterday's subscriber episode, we

1164
00:56:07,502 --> 00:56:11,861
Speaker 3: tackled some very interesting dilemmas, including whether or not to

1165
00:56:12,102 --> 00:56:17,342
Speaker 3: let your friend bring along a fling to a girl's dinner.

1166
00:56:17,422 --> 00:56:18,902
Speaker 1: Oh, I have very strong thoughts.

1167
00:56:18,942 --> 00:56:21,781
Speaker 3: We've all been there, and how to deal with two

1168
00:56:22,062 --> 00:56:24,301
Speaker 3: close friends who have turned on each other. A link

1169
00:56:24,342 --> 00:56:28,622
Speaker 3: will be in the show notes, Bye bye. Shout out

1170
00:56:28,622 --> 00:56:31,102
Speaker 3: to any Mum and me A subscribers listening. If you

1171
00:56:31,181 --> 00:56:33,901
Speaker 3: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

1172
00:56:33,942 --> 00:56:36,181
Speaker 3: to Mom and Mia is the very best way to

1173
00:56:36,221 --> 00:56:38,661
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description