WEBVTT - After Her Divorce, Amantha Imber Went On 50 First Dates

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on. I'm writing a brief.

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<v Speaker 2>It's for my perfect second husband, actually my first husband,

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<v Speaker 2>because my current one, Brent, is not really my husband

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<v Speaker 2>but my boyfriend. He's been my boyfriend for twenty years

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<v Speaker 2>this year. And my boyfriend and I have two children,

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<v Speaker 2>a mortgage, a dog, two decades of shared history and

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<v Speaker 2>stories and travels and shared friendships and families and illnesses

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<v Speaker 2>and deaths and miscarriages and weddings and funerals and money,

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<v Speaker 2>worries and work, stress and fights and diagnoses and at

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<v Speaker 2>least five different homes and wordle and sundowners and a

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<v Speaker 2>great deal of laughter. For now, at least, we are

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<v Speaker 2>stuck too and with each other. But if I, like

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<v Speaker 2>my guest today, found myself suddenly single again, would I,

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<v Speaker 2>like my guest today, get busy with a blank page

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<v Speaker 2>in and Excel spreadsheet, devoid of history and the messiness

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<v Speaker 2>of familiarity, and ask myself what do I want next?

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<v Speaker 2>And if I did, would the universe laugh at me

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<v Speaker 2>the way it did twenty years ago when I was

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<v Speaker 2>convinced what I wanted was not what was right in

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<v Speaker 2>front of me, but a whole list of unchecked boxes.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd dated musicians and artists and cliff scaling risk takers,

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<v Speaker 2>addicts and travelers and earnest world changes. I had the

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<v Speaker 2>words life less ordinary taped on a corkboard somewhere, and

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<v Speaker 2>I took those words to mean chaos and drama and

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<v Speaker 2>constant movement manifestos. That's not what I got. If the

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<v Speaker 2>universe knew anything, it was that I'd had my fill

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<v Speaker 2>of all that. But back to the blank sheet of

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<v Speaker 2>my imagination. If I was single, with all my mid

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<v Speaker 2>wisdom under my arm, like my guest today, would I

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<v Speaker 2>devise a strategy, write up some rules, enforce the guardrails

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<v Speaker 2>star we are to stop watch, an email chain, a

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<v Speaker 2>crowdsourcing plan. I doubt it. I'm not a strategist. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a panther, not a plotter. But if we are here

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<v Speaker 2>and the lines must be filled in, I would learn

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<v Speaker 2>to click on my Excel cells and I would drag

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<v Speaker 2>and drop, and I would write kind, funny, kind, tall, kind, smart, kind, warm, kind, optimistic, kind, creative, kind, calm, kind, hot,

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<v Speaker 2>and probably because this was my brief, and only my brief.

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<v Speaker 2>I would feed it into a hungry AI assistant and

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<v Speaker 2>it would spit out a photo of print, and that

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<v Speaker 2>would be really, really annoying and also perfect.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, my name is Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife,

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<v Speaker 2>mid family, mid long relationship. Today's episode is all about love, specifically,

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<v Speaker 2>it's about finding it in your mid years, maybe for

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<v Speaker 2>the second time, maybe for the fourth, maybe for the first.

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<v Speaker 2>We've touched on this before here in mid Our second

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<v Speaker 2>ever episode was called the Midlife Dating Pool Has.

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<v Speaker 1>We in It?

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<v Speaker 2>And it was about Catherine Mahoney's chaotic app dating world

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<v Speaker 2>and it was very, very funny, and you all told

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<v Speaker 2>me that you wanted more of those stories. And so

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<v Speaker 2>today something very different about dating after a divorce, a

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<v Speaker 2>story about a woman who did it in the most

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<v Speaker 2>methodical way. I can imagine a woman who knew exactly

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<v Speaker 2>what she wanted, and her particular list of needs and

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<v Speaker 2>wants weren't necessarily the same as her friends, and the

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<v Speaker 2>way she was going to find the partner that she

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<v Speaker 2>knew she wanted was probably not going to be the

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<v Speaker 2>same either. Doctor Amantha Imber is one of the most efficient,

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<v Speaker 2>productive and interesting people I know. She is an organizational psychologist,

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<v Speaker 2>and organizational psychologists are amazing. And she is the creator

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<v Speaker 2>of the innovation business Inventium, and she hosts the podcast

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<v Speaker 2>How I Work. And she is the author of a

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<v Speaker 2>few books and the mother to one child. And she

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<v Speaker 2>also got divorced a few years ago. Organizational psychologists don't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily date the same way chaotic writers do. It seems

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<v Speaker 2>Amantha took an efficient approach when she decided she wanted

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<v Speaker 2>a new pun. She decided to balance quantity and quality

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<v Speaker 2>on the dating apps, and she went on fifty one

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<v Speaker 2>first dates in her first stint of online dating. Those

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<v Speaker 2>dates had strict rules and boundaries, time limits and schedules,

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<v Speaker 2>and they didn't work. So then Amantha drew up a

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<v Speaker 2>brief and cold called a whole lot of people in

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<v Speaker 2>her circle who might know the person she was looking for.

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<v Speaker 2>But well, that didn't work either, So what did? I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to let her tell you that, Amantha, You're getting married.

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<v Speaker 2>Massive congratulations, thanks Holly, thank you. I need to let

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<v Speaker 2>the mids in on the fact that I have interviewed

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<v Speaker 2>you before a couple of times actually, but the last

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<v Speaker 2>time we had a proper chat, I looked today, it

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<v Speaker 2>was actually eight years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh. And that was in Melbourne. Yep, it was.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was in Melbourne, and we were talking about

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<v Speaker 2>because you owned your own company, and you were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about this wild way of working where people could work

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<v Speaker 2>remotely from wherever they wanted to and all these things

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<v Speaker 2>that at the time was so mind boggling that I

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<v Speaker 2>came back to work and said to everybody, you won't

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<v Speaker 2>believe it. Fast forward eight years, and a lot has changed,

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<v Speaker 2>but also a lot has changed in your life since then.

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<v Speaker 2>Catch me up quickly on what's been going on with

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<v Speaker 2>you in the last eight years.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh well, look, lots changed at work, and you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we've now been doing the four day week for the

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<v Speaker 4>last four years, and that's you know, that's a whole

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<v Speaker 4>other topic of conversation. But in my person life, the

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<v Speaker 4>most significant thing that has happened is that I got

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<v Speaker 4>divorced in twenty nineteen and I am getting married in

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<v Speaker 4>March twenty twenty five, which is.

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<v Speaker 2>Very exciting and I need. That's what we're here to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about, because a lot of midlife women are divorced,

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<v Speaker 2>dating not dating, deciding if they want any part of

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<v Speaker 2>it ever again, and I would love to hear from you,

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<v Speaker 2>who's one of the smartest women I know for sure?

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<v Speaker 2>Was it soon after your divorce that you were like,

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<v Speaker 2>I know, I want to repartner, or did you go

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<v Speaker 2>through that period of time where you were like, never again,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I want to be single forever.

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<v Speaker 4>I think before the separation and then the divorce happened,

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<v Speaker 4>I'd probably been grieving that relationship for a while, and

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<v Speaker 4>so I think, you know, in any relationship breakdown, I

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<v Speaker 4>think there's always one person that probably knows first. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 4>it is mutual, but I think oftentimes and stories I've

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<v Speaker 4>heard from my friends that have been said O parated

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<v Speaker 4>is that they will have grieved if they were the

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<v Speaker 4>one making the decision before the actual relationship ended.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I can't remember when exactly.

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<v Speaker 4>I knew that I definitely wanted to repartner, but it

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<v Speaker 4>would have only been a few months after the breakdown

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<v Speaker 4>of the relationship. So I definitely knew that one of

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<v Speaker 4>my values is that life is best shared with someone

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<v Speaker 4>and that's just me, and I knew that I felt

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<v Speaker 4>that way, and so I knew that I wanted to

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<v Speaker 4>take finding a new partner really seriously.

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<v Speaker 2>And you did. I want to know first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>because I imagine correct me if I'm wrong, that you

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<v Speaker 2>went to the apps first, and the apps didn't really

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<v Speaker 2>exist probably the last time you were single. Certainly the

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<v Speaker 2>last time I was single. There was like RSVP online,

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<v Speaker 2>and I did play with that a bit, but the

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<v Speaker 2>whole dating app revolution hadn't started. How did you find

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<v Speaker 2>the apps first?

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<v Speaker 4>Up? Oh wow, Yeah, it's totally different world because I

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<v Speaker 4>was with my ex husband for thirteen years, so there

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<v Speaker 4>was definitely no apps, but RSVP was definitely a thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness.

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<v Speaker 4>So when I decided I was ready to date again,

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<v Speaker 4>which was a few months after the separation, I think

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<v Speaker 4>I tried bumble first and it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, it's like it's.

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<v Speaker 4>A whole other world. It is so strange. And I

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<v Speaker 4>was very reliant on the apps because the two main

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<v Speaker 4>years where I was dating before I met Neo my

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<v Speaker 4>soon to be husband, was twenty twenty and twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 4>and I live in Melbourne and I was locked down

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<v Speaker 4>for a good part of those two years, so apps

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<v Speaker 4>was really the main way to meet people.

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<v Speaker 2>I can imagine that that was also made it particularly difficult,

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<v Speaker 2>because I mean, apart from the fact that you're all

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<v Speaker 2>locked in your houses. But it was also that extra

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<v Speaker 2>level of how careful is everybody? Do we meet up

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<v Speaker 2>under what circumstances? It's not like you're going to bars

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<v Speaker 2>and things like that. It was very, very different.

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<v Speaker 4>It certainly was, and I think they needed to be

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<v Speaker 4>quite a high level of trust to meet up with

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<v Speaker 4>someone face to face, which you know, oftentimes might have

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<v Speaker 4>been for like a walk around the park wearing a mask,

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<v Speaker 4>which I mean, what a strange way to get to

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<v Speaker 4>know someone when you can't even read their facial expressions.

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<v Speaker 4>But I think what was good about online dating is

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<v Speaker 4>that for me, given like you know, part of my

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<v Speaker 4>work is around productivity and using time more wisely, is

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<v Speaker 4>that it's also quite efficient in that you can screen

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of people a lot more quickly than you

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<v Speaker 4>can if you're just reliant on meeting people in real

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<v Speaker 4>life or through connections in the workplace, or you know,

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<v Speaker 4>other ways that people meet their partners.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so the listeners understand you are a psychologist,

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<v Speaker 2>you are a productivity expert, you're an academic, you're big

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<v Speaker 2>on research, you're big on efficiency. So did you devise

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of system for how to weed out the

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<v Speaker 2>wheat from the chaff.

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<v Speaker 1>In the dating world, I did.

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<v Speaker 4>What I realized pretty early on is that there is

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<v Speaker 4>a huge amount of quantity.

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<v Speaker 1>Time is finite.

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<v Speaker 4>I run a business, and so therefore I work something

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<v Speaker 4>that resembles full time hours. I've got a daughter that

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<v Speaker 4>is with me fifty percent of the time. I've got friends,

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<v Speaker 4>I've got family, and so there's a part of time

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<v Speaker 4>that I carved out for dating, and I wanted to

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<v Speaker 4>use that time really well as opposed to almost have

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<v Speaker 4>the dating apps become like social media is for a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of people, where you're just kind of mindlessly on

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<v Speaker 4>it without too much of an end goal. So I

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<v Speaker 4>tried to be very conscientious almost in how I use

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<v Speaker 4>the apps.

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<v Speaker 2>You like siphon off time that you're like, I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to look at it between this time and this time.

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<v Speaker 1>I absolutely did.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, Like I didn't stick to that one hundredent

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<v Speaker 4>of the time, but most of the time I was

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<v Speaker 4>quite conscious. It's like, okay, if I'm opening up Bumble

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<v Speaker 4>or Hinge, and they were my main go tos. I

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<v Speaker 4>tried Tinder, which just don't even get me started on

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<v Speaker 4>how that's the Yeah, there's no way.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're all quite different.

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<v Speaker 1>They're very different. They're very different.

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<v Speaker 4>I would have a bit of a process where you

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<v Speaker 4>connect with someone if you've both I guess liked each other.

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<v Speaker 4>And granted things might have changed in terms of the

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<v Speaker 4>features of these apps given where now you know, I

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<v Speaker 4>think three years that's all that. But then what was

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<v Speaker 4>really important for me is rather than just exchanging words,

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<v Speaker 4>and I mean, words are important, and we're both writers,

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<v Speaker 4>so I think you and I can appreciate the importance

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<v Speaker 4>of how someone uses words. But beyond that, I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>so like good grammar matters to me, which might sound superficial,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think it's important.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it does to me too, and I worry

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<v Speaker 2>that it makes me a snob, but it's very much.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's just if that's part of your value, like,

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<v Speaker 2>if that's part of what you do in your value system,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very hard if somebody just it doesn't use grammar

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<v Speaker 2>and doesn't and spells everything wrong.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yes, yes, And then I had to try to

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<v Speaker 4>develop other heuristics, like things that would just help me

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<v Speaker 4>shortcut decision making, because if you agonize over every single

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<v Speaker 4>person that you're looking at on an app, I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>it's a never ending task, and so just for the

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<v Speaker 4>sake of using my time, well, I thought, I just

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<v Speaker 4>need some quick decision making rules that will help me

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<v Speaker 4>decide yes I want to know more or no swipe left,

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<v Speaker 4>which I think is the direction that you say no

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<v Speaker 4>in man, I think I've just repressed all this stuff, Holly.

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<v Speaker 4>So I had a thing where I would move to

0:12:56.207 --> 0:12:58.647
<v Speaker 4>voice memo quite quickly, because I think you can tell

0:12:58.687 --> 0:13:01.887
<v Speaker 4>a lot about someone by their voice and how they

0:13:02.047 --> 0:13:05.167
<v Speaker 4>speak and just what energy they bring to a conversation,

0:13:05.967 --> 0:13:10.207
<v Speaker 4>and so I would move from text to voie fairly quickly.

0:13:10.407 --> 0:13:13.247
<v Speaker 4>And because I think that feature was just being introduced

0:13:13.247 --> 0:13:15.087
<v Speaker 4>at the time, it was a little bit unusual, and

0:13:15.167 --> 0:13:17.927
<v Speaker 4>so people would often reply by, oh, I didn't even

0:13:17.967 --> 0:13:21.087
<v Speaker 4>know that there was a voice recording feature in the app,

0:13:21.367 --> 0:13:23.487
<v Speaker 4>And we would exchange a few messages and I would

0:13:23.527 --> 0:13:24.967
<v Speaker 4>just get a bit of a feel for them. So

0:13:25.087 --> 0:13:27.887
<v Speaker 4>again I could go, Hm, does this feel like someone

0:13:27.967 --> 0:13:30.527
<v Speaker 4>that has the kind of energy that I want to

0:13:30.527 --> 0:13:30.847
<v Speaker 4>be with?

0:13:30.967 --> 0:13:31.727
<v Speaker 1>And again, I.

0:13:31.687 --> 0:13:33.607
<v Speaker 4>Mean, I'm sure that there are lots of people in

0:13:33.647 --> 0:13:35.967
<v Speaker 4>the world that are fantastic that probably wouldn't sound great

0:13:35.967 --> 0:13:36.767
<v Speaker 4>in a voice memo.

0:13:36.887 --> 0:13:38.207
<v Speaker 1>And yes, I ruled them all.

0:13:38.127 --> 0:13:41.447
<v Speaker 4>Out because of this little heuristic that I developed. But

0:13:42.367 --> 0:13:44.327
<v Speaker 4>time is finite, and so I had to keep coming

0:13:44.367 --> 0:13:46.407
<v Speaker 4>back to that and going, look, I just I need

0:13:46.447 --> 0:13:49.607
<v Speaker 4>decision making criteriously and I'm not agonizing some things.

0:13:50.167 --> 0:13:53.767
<v Speaker 2>And then so you went on some dates from the

0:13:54.007 --> 0:13:57.007
<v Speaker 2>dating apps, but then you decided to come off the

0:13:57.047 --> 0:13:59.087
<v Speaker 2>apps for a while and try a different kind of

0:13:59.167 --> 0:14:01.807
<v Speaker 2>dating experiment. Did you not meet anybody good on the

0:14:01.847 --> 0:14:03.327
<v Speaker 2>dating apps that first time around?

0:14:05.207 --> 0:14:07.727
<v Speaker 1>Look, I reckon all up.

0:14:07.887 --> 0:14:11.367
<v Speaker 4>I calculate it probably went on about fifty first dates.

0:14:11.407 --> 0:14:14.527
<v Speaker 2>Wow, yeah, Antha, that's loads.

0:14:14.807 --> 0:14:17.767
<v Speaker 1>It's so many over two years, and some of those.

0:14:17.807 --> 0:14:20.567
<v Speaker 2>Did you have like rules about the dates too, like

0:14:20.647 --> 0:14:22.647
<v Speaker 2>how long they could be, what they were, and that

0:14:22.727 --> 0:14:23.207
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing.

0:14:24.327 --> 0:14:28.567
<v Speaker 1>Of course I didn't tell me that. I feel like,

0:14:28.727 --> 0:14:29.087
<v Speaker 1>when you.

0:14:29.047 --> 0:14:30.447
<v Speaker 4>Go on a date, a lot of people feel an

0:14:30.487 --> 0:14:35.367
<v Speaker 4>obligation just to stay for a decent amount of time.

0:14:35.527 --> 0:14:38.127
<v Speaker 1>But for me, I just thought, if we're both.

0:14:37.967 --> 0:14:42.167
<v Speaker 4>Sitting there and there's clearly no connection, just call it early.

0:14:42.447 --> 0:14:43.967
<v Speaker 1>And so I would.

0:14:44.007 --> 0:14:47.967
<v Speaker 4>Typically, I think my shortest dates were about forty five minutes,

0:14:48.087 --> 0:14:49.647
<v Speaker 4>because I felt like that was long enough. I mean,

0:14:49.687 --> 0:14:51.887
<v Speaker 4>often you can tell in the first five minutes but

0:14:51.927 --> 0:14:53.847
<v Speaker 4>I tried not to hang on to those first impressions

0:14:53.887 --> 0:14:55.807
<v Speaker 4>as well. It's really easy to form like very quick

0:14:55.847 --> 0:14:58.167
<v Speaker 4>impressions when you start a date.

0:14:58.247 --> 0:14:59.367
<v Speaker 1>But I would try.

0:14:59.127 --> 0:15:02.847
<v Speaker 4>To just you know, force particularly any judgmental parts of

0:15:02.847 --> 0:15:04.927
<v Speaker 4>my brain to just go no, no, remain open. But

0:15:04.967 --> 0:15:07.687
<v Speaker 4>I sort of thought, look, after forty five minutes, I'm

0:15:07.727 --> 0:15:10.567
<v Speaker 4>just going to call it. And sometimes I was honest

0:15:10.647 --> 0:15:12.207
<v Speaker 4>and I just said I just don't feel like there's

0:15:12.207 --> 0:15:15.647
<v Speaker 4>a connection here. Other times I just made up a

0:15:15.687 --> 0:15:18.887
<v Speaker 4>lie and said that I had to go to, you know,

0:15:18.927 --> 0:15:20.727
<v Speaker 4>in my mind, protect the other person's feelings.

0:15:21.287 --> 0:15:22.607
<v Speaker 1>So I did a lot of that.

0:15:22.887 --> 0:15:25.727
<v Speaker 4>Some of those first dates turned into second dates and more,

0:15:26.087 --> 0:15:28.847
<v Speaker 4>but most did not, And that was fine, because you know,

0:15:29.007 --> 0:15:31.367
<v Speaker 4>it takes meeting a lot of people to find the

0:15:31.407 --> 0:15:33.727
<v Speaker 4>person that you, you know, feel the disconnection.

0:15:33.887 --> 0:15:37.327
<v Speaker 2>Were you ever like, oh, you know, this is exhausting.

0:15:38.767 --> 0:15:39.647
<v Speaker 2>What's that movie?

0:15:39.847 --> 0:15:40.647
<v Speaker 4>Where is he?

0:15:41.567 --> 0:15:44.767
<v Speaker 2>I always Charlotte m sax in the city? Where is he?

0:15:45.007 --> 0:15:45.287
<v Speaker 4>Did you?

0:15:46.407 --> 0:15:48.247
<v Speaker 2>Did you feel like that?

0:15:49.007 --> 0:15:49.207
<v Speaker 4>Oh?

0:15:49.287 --> 0:15:50.287
<v Speaker 1>My gosh, Holly.

0:15:50.567 --> 0:15:54.607
<v Speaker 4>After so many dates, I would be driving home and

0:15:54.807 --> 0:15:57.487
<v Speaker 4>I would call my best friend and I would say,

0:15:57.927 --> 0:16:01.927
<v Speaker 4>I've just been on another date. And it didn't work,

0:16:02.007 --> 0:16:04.047
<v Speaker 4>and like, am my standards too high?

0:16:04.047 --> 0:16:06.927
<v Speaker 1>I am I expecting too much? Like what am I

0:16:07.007 --> 0:16:07.727
<v Speaker 1>doing wrong?

0:16:08.527 --> 0:16:12.287
<v Speaker 4>And oh man, like there were so many low points

0:16:12.287 --> 0:16:14.767
<v Speaker 4>in that two years, But I think somewhere inside of

0:16:14.807 --> 0:16:18.487
<v Speaker 4>me I felt I did feel truly optimistic, even though

0:16:18.487 --> 0:16:21.887
<v Speaker 4>there were lots of low points and lots of nights

0:16:21.927 --> 0:16:25.767
<v Speaker 4>just feeling really lonely and discouraged on that drive home

0:16:25.807 --> 0:16:28.087
<v Speaker 4>from the date. But I think, you know, I was

0:16:28.127 --> 0:16:31.367
<v Speaker 4>definitely holding onto some optimism and hope, which I think

0:16:31.407 --> 0:16:34.207
<v Speaker 4>you have to if you're going to deal with the apps,

0:16:34.207 --> 0:16:36.807
<v Speaker 4>because the apps can be incredibly depressing.

0:16:37.007 --> 0:16:41.167
<v Speaker 2>And you're a pragmatic, practical person, right, And I imagine

0:16:41.167 --> 0:16:45.327
<v Speaker 2>that that helps in this situation because if you're meeting

0:16:45.367 --> 0:16:49.367
<v Speaker 2>somebody and it's obvious there's no chemistry, hopefully you're not

0:16:49.447 --> 0:16:51.527
<v Speaker 2>walking away from it going there's something wrong with me,

0:16:51.567 --> 0:16:53.607
<v Speaker 2>because that's not what it's about, right, That's not what

0:16:53.647 --> 0:16:56.127
<v Speaker 2>it's about at all. But that can be tough on

0:16:56.167 --> 0:16:58.767
<v Speaker 2>the ego after a while if you do internalize it.

0:16:58.847 --> 0:17:02.127
<v Speaker 2>So having that pragmatic approach is probably really helpful.

0:17:03.087 --> 0:17:04.407
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it is helpful.

0:17:04.527 --> 0:17:07.327
<v Speaker 4>I think also I ended up like just I did

0:17:07.367 --> 0:17:10.007
<v Speaker 4>so much research into how almost like how to be

0:17:10.047 --> 0:17:12.687
<v Speaker 4>a data and how to make a good decision. Yeah,

0:17:12.967 --> 0:17:15.047
<v Speaker 4>I read a lot of books and one of the

0:17:15.127 --> 0:17:17.767
<v Speaker 4>lessons that stuck with me that I tried to implement

0:17:17.847 --> 0:17:21.247
<v Speaker 4>but I found it really hard is to always default

0:17:21.287 --> 0:17:23.767
<v Speaker 4>to a second date. Whereas for me, I've gone into dating,

0:17:23.847 --> 0:17:27.807
<v Speaker 4>going one date and if I'm not enamored, then I'm

0:17:27.927 --> 0:17:31.287
<v Speaker 4>calling it. So I changed my approach part of the

0:17:31.287 --> 0:17:33.807
<v Speaker 4>way through to go I'm defaulting to a second date

0:17:33.887 --> 0:17:37.127
<v Speaker 4>unless there's a massive problem or red flag on the

0:17:37.167 --> 0:17:39.407
<v Speaker 4>first date, which I felt just having that rule helped

0:17:39.407 --> 0:17:39.887
<v Speaker 4>me keep.

0:17:39.767 --> 0:17:40.607
<v Speaker 1>An open mind.

0:17:41.487 --> 0:17:44.127
<v Speaker 4>But it did get to a point where about two

0:17:44.207 --> 0:17:46.167
<v Speaker 4>years of doing this, I just thought.

0:17:46.407 --> 0:17:47.567
<v Speaker 1>I'm so over this.

0:17:47.647 --> 0:17:50.567
<v Speaker 4>Surely there's got to be a better way of finding people.

0:17:50.687 --> 0:17:54.447
<v Speaker 4>And so I my resident email out to a few

0:17:54.487 --> 0:17:58.327
<v Speaker 4>close friends and I said, Okay, I want your ideas.

0:17:58.487 --> 0:18:00.967
<v Speaker 4>I'm still dating, I'm still single, but I'm taking it

0:18:00.967 --> 0:18:04.207
<v Speaker 4>really seriously finding a new partner. Give me some ideas

0:18:04.287 --> 0:18:05.687
<v Speaker 4>of like what would you do if you were me?

0:18:06.127 --> 0:18:09.647
<v Speaker 4>And you could you avoid the apps but still fine dates.

0:18:10.007 --> 0:18:13.847
<v Speaker 4>And I remember someone someone emailed me back and they said, well,

0:18:14.207 --> 0:18:16.687
<v Speaker 4>you know, you know, lots of people like you you know,

0:18:17.167 --> 0:18:20.967
<v Speaker 4>host a podcast that's very popular, You've got like, you know,

0:18:21.247 --> 0:18:25.487
<v Speaker 4>large networks through work. Surely with all those kind of

0:18:25.527 --> 0:18:29.087
<v Speaker 4>assets in inverted commas, you could utilize those to find

0:18:29.127 --> 0:18:32.607
<v Speaker 4>a date. And I thought that's interesting, and so I

0:18:32.687 --> 0:18:36.847
<v Speaker 4>then decided that I would try to crowdsource dates.

0:18:37.167 --> 0:18:40.087
<v Speaker 1>So what the approach was, it was quite specific.

0:18:40.167 --> 0:18:43.527
<v Speaker 4>So I put together a list of people who I

0:18:43.567 --> 0:18:46.687
<v Speaker 4>would call a little bit more than acquaintances. So they

0:18:46.687 --> 0:18:48.967
<v Speaker 4>weren't my inner circle of friends, because my inner circle

0:18:49.007 --> 0:18:50.727
<v Speaker 4>of friends they knew I was looking for someone.

0:18:50.927 --> 0:18:51.367
<v Speaker 3>They know me.

0:18:51.567 --> 0:18:53.727
<v Speaker 1>If they knew someone, they would have introduced me.

0:18:54.087 --> 0:18:56.327
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, so I went, I went sort of down

0:18:56.327 --> 0:18:59.207
<v Speaker 4>the friendship tears, if you like, to people that knew

0:18:59.247 --> 0:19:02.167
<v Speaker 4>me and knew my values and kind of who I

0:19:02.207 --> 0:19:05.807
<v Speaker 4>am as a person, but is not someone that would necessarily,

0:19:06.127 --> 0:19:08.487
<v Speaker 4>you know, if they knew a person that they thought,

0:19:08.487 --> 0:19:10.327
<v Speaker 4>oh they could be great for amoutha, it just wouldn't

0:19:10.327 --> 0:19:13.087
<v Speaker 4>be top of mind. So I literally I opened up

0:19:13.127 --> 0:19:15.407
<v Speaker 4>Excel and I created a spreadsheet and I wrote down

0:19:15.447 --> 0:19:17.767
<v Speaker 4>all these people's names. And the other thing is I

0:19:17.807 --> 0:19:20.607
<v Speaker 4>was specifically thinking about who were the most well networked

0:19:20.647 --> 0:19:24.167
<v Speaker 4>people of that most people yeah, who knew the most.

0:19:24.367 --> 0:19:28.327
<v Speaker 4>And then I put together a one page brief of

0:19:28.487 --> 0:19:29.327
<v Speaker 4>what I was looking for.

0:19:29.407 --> 0:19:32.127
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I need to know what was on the brief, Amountha.

0:19:34.207 --> 0:19:36.967
<v Speaker 4>Well, it had a few sections, so it had just

0:19:37.007 --> 0:19:42.807
<v Speaker 4>basic demographics because for age demographics brought age and location

0:19:42.927 --> 0:19:45.127
<v Speaker 4>demographics because that was important. I didn't want a long

0:19:45.167 --> 0:19:47.447
<v Speaker 4>distance thing and I didn't want to be dating someone

0:19:47.807 --> 0:19:50.367
<v Speaker 4>you know it was like twenty years younger or you know,

0:19:50.567 --> 0:19:51.447
<v Speaker 4>thirty years older.

0:19:52.087 --> 0:19:55.047
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I decided that that wasn't for me.

0:19:55.687 --> 0:19:58.967
<v Speaker 4>I had thought about what are the most important values

0:19:59.167 --> 0:20:02.807
<v Speaker 4>and what are the most important qualities? And I think

0:20:02.807 --> 0:20:05.927
<v Speaker 4>that's something I really discounted when I was dating in

0:20:05.967 --> 0:20:08.887
<v Speaker 4>my twenties, where I think I sort of focused on.

0:20:08.967 --> 0:20:10.847
<v Speaker 1>You know, more of the superficial things that a lot

0:20:10.887 --> 0:20:13.447
<v Speaker 1>of us have focused on in our twenties, like, you know,

0:20:13.887 --> 0:20:16.367
<v Speaker 1>are they smarter? Are they funny? And you know they

0:20:16.367 --> 0:20:19.047
<v Speaker 1>have a good job? And is the hot all that

0:20:19.087 --> 0:20:19.607
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing.

0:20:19.687 --> 0:20:22.487
<v Speaker 4>But somewhere along the lines, like I think of the

0:20:22.527 --> 0:20:24.727
<v Speaker 4>guys that I dated in my twenties and the decisions

0:20:24.727 --> 0:20:27.807
<v Speaker 4>I made, kindness didn't really feature.

0:20:28.047 --> 0:20:29.927
<v Speaker 1>And so for me, that was france and center.

0:20:30.287 --> 0:20:34.247
<v Speaker 4>I wanted someone who at their core was just a beautiful,

0:20:34.367 --> 0:20:37.407
<v Speaker 4>kind person. And I feel that, you know, now in

0:20:37.447 --> 0:20:40.447
<v Speaker 4>my forties, I understand how important that is for a relationship.

0:20:40.447 --> 0:20:41.767
<v Speaker 4>But for a lot of the dating that I did

0:20:41.767 --> 0:20:44.007
<v Speaker 4>in my younger years, it's like I was looking for

0:20:44.127 --> 0:20:47.927
<v Speaker 4>qualities that just it didn't matter. And I knew I

0:20:47.927 --> 0:20:51.847
<v Speaker 4>also wanted someone that had a real kind of learning

0:20:52.087 --> 0:20:54.287
<v Speaker 4>growth kind of mindset.

0:20:53.767 --> 0:20:56.207
<v Speaker 2>Because that's how you are. You know, you're you're a searcher.

0:20:56.207 --> 0:21:00.727
<v Speaker 2>You're a learner or a researcher. You Yeah, you're constantly curious. Yes,

0:21:00.767 --> 0:21:03.367
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't want to be with someone who was this

0:21:03.527 --> 0:21:05.687
<v Speaker 2>is it? This is the way things are closing?

0:21:05.767 --> 0:21:05.967
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:21:06.567 --> 0:21:07.007
<v Speaker 1>Not Yeah.

0:21:07.007 --> 0:21:09.207
<v Speaker 4>And like I even think about some of the ritual

0:21:09.487 --> 0:21:13.207
<v Speaker 4>that Neo, my partner, and I have, and it's like

0:21:13.647 --> 0:21:15.527
<v Speaker 4>for a lot of people they would think that, like

0:21:15.567 --> 0:21:18.127
<v Speaker 4>these are mad rituals, like what are you doing? But

0:21:18.167 --> 0:21:21.167
<v Speaker 4>for us, because we're very similar in our value set,

0:21:21.207 --> 0:21:22.327
<v Speaker 4>it just makes sense.

0:21:22.847 --> 0:21:24.967
<v Speaker 2>Because I was just asking about that one second. We're

0:21:24.967 --> 0:21:26.407
<v Speaker 2>going to get onto Neo in a bit when we

0:21:26.927 --> 0:21:30.887
<v Speaker 2>when we find him. But when I love this idea

0:21:30.927 --> 0:21:34.207
<v Speaker 2>of ask you when you actually articulate what you want

0:21:34.367 --> 0:21:37.567
<v Speaker 2>because I've heard women of all kinds of different ages

0:21:38.127 --> 0:21:40.807
<v Speaker 2>talk about this. Jesse Stevens, who's my co host on

0:21:40.887 --> 0:21:43.847
<v Speaker 2>out loud, not long before she met her partner Lucas,

0:21:43.847 --> 0:21:45.807
<v Speaker 2>she said she'd been disastered and she was only in

0:21:45.807 --> 0:21:48.567
<v Speaker 2>her twenties, but she had been disastrously dating. And she

0:21:48.727 --> 0:21:50.647
<v Speaker 2>did write a list and a lot of people teased

0:21:50.647 --> 0:21:52.887
<v Speaker 2>her about it because they're like, you shouldn't be so

0:21:52.967 --> 0:21:56.727
<v Speaker 2>close minded. You know, it's kind of a bit judgmental

0:21:56.767 --> 0:21:59.007
<v Speaker 2>to write a list. You know, lightning strikes in all

0:21:59.087 --> 0:22:01.367
<v Speaker 2>kind of ways, and just like what you just said,

0:22:01.447 --> 0:22:03.727
<v Speaker 2>kindness was top of her list. And then she met

0:22:03.807 --> 0:22:07.367
<v Speaker 2>the guy and he was very kind When you wrote

0:22:07.407 --> 0:22:09.607
<v Speaker 2>your list, and then you shared that list with your

0:22:09.687 --> 0:22:12.247
<v Speaker 2>circle A that feels like quite a vulnerable thing to do,

0:22:13.047 --> 0:22:15.527
<v Speaker 2>like kind of showing that to people in your world

0:22:15.567 --> 0:22:17.687
<v Speaker 2>like I do. It can even be vulnerable saying I

0:22:17.727 --> 0:22:19.927
<v Speaker 2>really would like to meet someone and I haven't. But

0:22:19.927 --> 0:22:21.887
<v Speaker 2>also these are the things that mattered to me. Were

0:22:21.927 --> 0:22:25.487
<v Speaker 2>you worried about that vulnerability and were you worried about

0:22:25.807 --> 0:22:30.087
<v Speaker 2>seeming I don't know, so a twofold question, Well, did

0:22:30.087 --> 0:22:32.367
<v Speaker 2>the vulnerability worry you? And do you think there's just

0:22:32.487 --> 0:22:35.087
<v Speaker 2>power in getting really clear about what matters to.

0:22:35.047 --> 0:22:36.607
<v Speaker 1>You, yes and yes.

0:22:36.927 --> 0:22:41.847
<v Speaker 4>So I still remember how I felt when I called

0:22:41.847 --> 0:22:44.207
<v Speaker 4>these people. Actually had a list of fifty people, and

0:22:44.247 --> 0:22:45.807
<v Speaker 4>I thought, I'm just going to start with ten, treated

0:22:45.847 --> 0:22:48.287
<v Speaker 4>as an experiment, And I remember every one of those

0:22:48.327 --> 0:22:51.207
<v Speaker 4>ten phone calls, and I felt so nervous.

0:22:51.247 --> 0:22:52.607
<v Speaker 1>I felt sick in the stomach.

0:22:53.007 --> 0:22:55.927
<v Speaker 4>It felt like a really big deal to put yourself

0:22:55.967 --> 0:22:59.567
<v Speaker 4>out there and say I'm like, unashamedly looking for a

0:22:59.607 --> 0:23:02.407
<v Speaker 4>partner and I really want your help. I was so

0:23:02.527 --> 0:23:05.247
<v Speaker 4>nervous and what I got on the receiving end and

0:23:05.327 --> 0:23:07.447
<v Speaker 4>keeping in mind these people like I knew them, but

0:23:07.447 --> 0:23:09.447
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know them well, Like I knew them well

0:23:09.567 --> 0:23:11.047
<v Speaker 4>enough for them to be on the list.

0:23:10.887 --> 0:23:12.367
<v Speaker 2>Well enough they were going to pick up the phone

0:23:12.407 --> 0:23:14.127
<v Speaker 2>or once your email and be like hi a month

0:23:14.167 --> 0:23:15.647
<v Speaker 2>in a good tear from you. But then they'd be.

0:23:15.607 --> 0:23:19.447
<v Speaker 3>Like, oh, that's what we're talking about today, Yeah, exactly, exactly,

0:23:19.847 --> 0:23:22.887
<v Speaker 3>And I remember every one of them was just like

0:23:23.007 --> 0:23:28.247
<v Speaker 3>so so honored to be asked and so excited to help.

0:23:28.407 --> 0:23:31.047
<v Speaker 1>And I ran it as like.

0:23:30.967 --> 0:23:34.247
<v Speaker 4>A four week campaign where every week I would send

0:23:34.247 --> 0:23:36.527
<v Speaker 4>them like a little nudge, a little question to try

0:23:36.567 --> 0:23:40.447
<v Speaker 4>to trigger memories around all the people that they might know.

0:23:41.047 --> 0:23:45.247
<v Speaker 4>And then I think I had some kind of an incentive,

0:23:45.367 --> 0:23:47.127
<v Speaker 4>not that they needed an incentive, because I think they

0:23:47.167 --> 0:23:49.407
<v Speaker 4>just you know, enjoyed the idea of helping that I'd

0:23:49.407 --> 0:23:51.047
<v Speaker 4>make it. I think I was going to make a

0:23:51.167 --> 0:23:53.447
<v Speaker 4>hundred dollars donation to charity for every.

0:23:53.247 --> 0:23:54.887
<v Speaker 1>Date that I went on that they found me.

0:23:55.567 --> 0:24:00.767
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, and the experiment was an utter failure. Not

0:24:01.127 --> 0:24:04.127
<v Speaker 4>a single date came out of that experiment.

0:24:04.247 --> 0:24:05.647
<v Speaker 2>Why do you think that was.

0:24:07.367 --> 0:24:07.807
<v Speaker 1>Well?

0:24:08.727 --> 0:24:10.527
<v Speaker 4>I think it was because they had a very clear

0:24:10.567 --> 0:24:14.127
<v Speaker 4>brief and it wasn't an extensive brief. It wasn't a

0:24:14.167 --> 0:24:17.647
<v Speaker 4>long brief. I think all up there were nine points

0:24:18.047 --> 0:24:21.367
<v Speaker 4>that was it, because I think one of the arts

0:24:21.687 --> 0:24:24.927
<v Speaker 4>of making a great brief is making it very succinct

0:24:24.967 --> 0:24:26.767
<v Speaker 4>as opposed to a whole shopping list, and that was

0:24:26.807 --> 0:24:28.567
<v Speaker 4>really hard. But it was a good process to go through,

0:24:28.607 --> 0:24:32.047
<v Speaker 4>I think for myself in going what are the absolute

0:24:32.167 --> 0:24:35.287
<v Speaker 4>must haves here? But I also think it is hard

0:24:35.367 --> 0:24:39.487
<v Speaker 4>to find someone that is your person. I think it's

0:24:39.487 --> 0:24:42.767
<v Speaker 4>harder when it's when you're in your forties because just

0:24:42.927 --> 0:24:46.807
<v Speaker 4>i'man Statistically, a lot of people are still married. It's

0:24:46.807 --> 0:24:51.047
<v Speaker 4>not like in your twenties, where the majority of people

0:24:51.367 --> 0:24:55.087
<v Speaker 4>are probably single or in you know, like not non

0:24:55.127 --> 0:24:59.047
<v Speaker 4>life committed relationships. So just statistically, it's really different. And

0:24:59.087 --> 0:25:02.487
<v Speaker 4>I think when you're in your forties and beyond, like

0:25:02.967 --> 0:25:06.047
<v Speaker 4>you're really clear on who you are and what you

0:25:06.167 --> 0:25:08.847
<v Speaker 4>value and what is important and what you won't compromise on.

0:25:09.247 --> 0:25:12.287
<v Speaker 4>And I think that for me because I had no

0:25:12.327 --> 0:25:16.727
<v Speaker 4>biological clock ticking, I had my beautiful daughter she's now ten.

0:25:17.527 --> 0:25:20.447
<v Speaker 4>There's also no sense of urgency as well, and that

0:25:20.607 --> 0:25:23.407
<v Speaker 4>changes everything when it comes to dating as a woman.

0:25:23.847 --> 0:25:26.967
<v Speaker 2>That's so interesting because it's true. It's like you this,

0:25:27.247 --> 0:25:30.087
<v Speaker 2>to put it in very basic language, you don't need

0:25:30.527 --> 0:25:33.167
<v Speaker 2>to settle, like you know what I mean. You don't

0:25:33.207 --> 0:25:36.607
<v Speaker 2>need It's not you don't necessarily need a partner for

0:25:36.727 --> 0:25:40.447
<v Speaker 2>financial reasons or to have a baby with, or to

0:25:40.527 --> 0:25:43.527
<v Speaker 2>buy a house or whatever, because you're well established in

0:25:43.567 --> 0:25:46.567
<v Speaker 2>your life, your career. You've got your beautiful daughter, as

0:25:46.567 --> 0:25:49.927
<v Speaker 2>you say, so a partner, as you said at the beginning,

0:25:50.007 --> 0:25:52.687
<v Speaker 2>you said, I know that life is for me. Life

0:25:52.727 --> 0:25:56.047
<v Speaker 2>is better shared. That's your goal. It's not just anyone

0:25:56.087 --> 0:25:58.567
<v Speaker 2>will do. It's got to be shared with the right person.

0:25:58.687 --> 0:26:00.967
<v Speaker 2>Not that not that we all go around thinking anyone

0:26:00.967 --> 0:26:04.447
<v Speaker 2>will do, but a lot of those filters, you know,

0:26:05.167 --> 0:26:08.407
<v Speaker 2>they're stronger at this point because you don't need to settle,

0:26:08.487 --> 0:26:09.527
<v Speaker 2>right I think.

0:26:09.567 --> 0:26:15.727
<v Speaker 4>So, I think when you're racing against a clock as

0:26:15.767 --> 0:26:19.407
<v Speaker 4>a woman, if you do want to have children, then

0:26:20.007 --> 0:26:22.527
<v Speaker 4>it just I think sometimes it can lead to more

0:26:22.527 --> 0:26:27.087
<v Speaker 4>pragmatic decision making. And I hold no judgment against that

0:26:27.167 --> 0:26:28.567
<v Speaker 4>because I totally get that.

0:26:28.607 --> 0:26:29.767
<v Speaker 1>I totally get that.

0:26:30.847 --> 0:26:35.727
<v Speaker 4>But my experience was it was very, very different without

0:26:36.927 --> 0:26:40.047
<v Speaker 4>any kind of timeline, like, yes, I wanted to find someone,

0:26:40.647 --> 0:26:42.767
<v Speaker 4>you know, and sooner would have been better than later.

0:26:43.207 --> 0:26:46.767
<v Speaker 4>But equally, it had to be an additive because life

0:26:46.847 --> 0:26:51.007
<v Speaker 4>was really good before NEO, and unless it was going

0:26:51.087 --> 0:26:54.447
<v Speaker 4>to add something really wonderful to life, then why would

0:26:54.487 --> 0:26:57.447
<v Speaker 4>you Because obviously relationships involve sacrifices as well, and so

0:26:57.767 --> 0:27:00.327
<v Speaker 4>you know, the additive needs to be strong.

0:27:00.967 --> 0:27:03.607
<v Speaker 2>So we've written this type brief. I'm just imagining your friends.

0:27:03.647 --> 0:27:05.687
<v Speaker 2>The reason that you didn't get dates out of that

0:27:05.727 --> 0:27:07.847
<v Speaker 2>going through it because the brief was type being like, well,

0:27:07.927 --> 0:27:11.287
<v Speaker 2>yes he's smart, but he's not creative, and they're like

0:27:11.327 --> 0:27:14.687
<v Speaker 2>crossing it out and then or whatever it was anyway,

0:27:15.367 --> 0:27:18.567
<v Speaker 2>then so that didn't work and you went back on hinge.

0:27:19.047 --> 0:27:23.367
<v Speaker 2>Now quite quickly you did meet Neo. Do you think

0:27:23.447 --> 0:27:28.767
<v Speaker 2>the list exercised, the brief helped you further clarify things

0:27:28.807 --> 0:27:30.687
<v Speaker 2>when you did go back into app world?

0:27:32.047 --> 0:27:33.447
<v Speaker 1>It absolutely did.

0:27:34.007 --> 0:27:37.727
<v Speaker 4>But I also think, I mean, like, look, it was

0:27:37.887 --> 0:27:40.407
<v Speaker 4>it was putting pen to paper with what I knew

0:27:41.007 --> 0:27:47.687
<v Speaker 4>inside to be true, but with Neo id like, it

0:27:47.727 --> 0:27:50.367
<v Speaker 4>wasn't an uming and r ring like oh you know,

0:27:51.727 --> 0:27:54.127
<v Speaker 4>I remember like our first phone call that we had,

0:27:54.207 --> 0:27:57.327
<v Speaker 4>so we connected, we messaged, we voice memode, and then

0:27:57.327 --> 0:27:59.927
<v Speaker 4>we had a phone call. And I used to have

0:28:00.327 --> 0:28:03.127
<v Speaker 4>this rule for when we would get to the phone

0:28:03.127 --> 0:28:06.887
<v Speaker 4>call part of the dating process, which which i'd strongly

0:28:07.087 --> 0:28:09.127
<v Speaker 4>recommend instead of just going straight to a face to

0:28:09.647 --> 0:28:11.567
<v Speaker 4>because you can tell a lot in a phone conversation.

0:28:12.007 --> 0:28:14.967
<v Speaker 1>I used to have this rule that I wouldn't.

0:28:14.647 --> 0:28:18.127
<v Speaker 4>Let a phone conversation go over an hour because which

0:28:18.207 --> 0:28:22.087
<v Speaker 4>sounds like quite an anal strange rule, but the reason

0:28:22.167 --> 0:28:25.487
<v Speaker 4>for it is that I'd had experiences where I had

0:28:25.487 --> 0:28:27.967
<v Speaker 4>connected with someone on the app, and like I can

0:28:27.967 --> 0:28:30.447
<v Speaker 4>think of a couple of instances where we talked for

0:28:30.567 --> 0:28:33.087
<v Speaker 4>like two or three hours on the phone, and when

0:28:33.127 --> 0:28:35.847
<v Speaker 4>you talk to someone for that long and they're a

0:28:35.847 --> 0:28:37.807
<v Speaker 4>stranger and they're normally you know, I feel like when

0:28:37.807 --> 0:28:40.007
<v Speaker 4>it's a phone conversation, you sort of let it, let

0:28:40.087 --> 0:28:43.967
<v Speaker 4>down some of your guard, and you can talk about

0:28:44.007 --> 0:28:46.847
<v Speaker 4>things that are quite vulnerable because there's no visual there's

0:28:46.887 --> 0:28:49.487
<v Speaker 4>just voice. And something about that I think brings on

0:28:49.607 --> 0:28:52.687
<v Speaker 4>to honesty in a yeah, and an intimacy in the conversation.

0:28:53.327 --> 0:28:57.647
<v Speaker 4>And what then I'd done between the phone conversation and

0:28:57.687 --> 0:29:00.567
<v Speaker 4>the face to face date in those instances is that

0:29:00.607 --> 0:29:01.527
<v Speaker 4>I've just started to.

0:29:01.447 --> 0:29:04.967
<v Speaker 1>Project all these qualities onto the person that really I

0:29:04.967 --> 0:29:07.047
<v Speaker 1>didn't know. I just talked to them on the phone.

0:29:07.487 --> 0:29:10.287
<v Speaker 4>And then the first date was a real down and

0:29:10.327 --> 0:29:14.807
<v Speaker 4>so I thought, I'm just going to limit that first.

0:29:14.567 --> 0:29:15.927
<v Speaker 1>Phone conversation to an hour.

0:29:16.087 --> 0:29:17.727
<v Speaker 4>It's like it's long enough to get a really good

0:29:17.727 --> 0:29:20.367
<v Speaker 4>feel for someone, but it's not so long that you're

0:29:20.487 --> 0:29:23.647
<v Speaker 4>learning all this stuff and then forming like starting all

0:29:23.647 --> 0:29:27.167
<v Speaker 4>these assumptions and projections of what this person could possibly be,

0:29:27.167 --> 0:29:30.927
<v Speaker 4>because I found that that's really unhelpful going into a date.

0:29:33.287 --> 0:29:35.767
<v Speaker 2>After this short break, we're going to hear about Amantha's

0:29:35.807 --> 0:29:38.927
<v Speaker 2>first date with Neo and whether all her hard work

0:29:38.967 --> 0:29:44.607
<v Speaker 2>paid off stay with us. So your first conversation with

0:29:44.727 --> 0:29:46.407
<v Speaker 2>Neo did it break this rule?

0:29:46.887 --> 0:29:47.087
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:29:47.087 --> 0:29:50.527
<v Speaker 1>It did, But I told him about the rule. I look,

0:29:50.567 --> 0:29:52.487
<v Speaker 1>I remember, you know, it was in the evening.

0:29:52.487 --> 0:29:54.207
<v Speaker 4>I think we got to about nine o'clock at night

0:29:54.247 --> 0:29:56.447
<v Speaker 4>and I looked at my watch and I said, Neo,

0:29:56.647 --> 0:30:00.647
<v Speaker 4>so I've got this rule. And I got to cut

0:30:00.687 --> 0:30:04.087
<v Speaker 4>the phone conversation short now and I explained why, and

0:30:04.207 --> 0:30:07.047
<v Speaker 4>because he's as nerdy as me, He's like, I totally

0:30:07.087 --> 0:30:08.567
<v Speaker 4>get it. And then we just ended up talking I

0:30:08.567 --> 0:30:11.687
<v Speaker 4>think for another fifth or twenty minutes, and then I'm like, Okay, we.

0:30:11.687 --> 0:30:14.367
<v Speaker 1>Really have to go now. This rule has been broken.

0:30:14.847 --> 0:30:17.287
<v Speaker 4>But I think I just I knew after that phone

0:30:17.327 --> 0:30:20.607
<v Speaker 4>conversation that I think this guy's pretty special.

0:30:20.727 --> 0:30:22.247
<v Speaker 1>I think this is going to be a good first date.

0:30:22.327 --> 0:30:23.527
<v Speaker 2>Tell me about your first date.

0:30:24.767 --> 0:30:28.207
<v Speaker 4>I remember one of the I think like it was

0:30:28.287 --> 0:30:30.487
<v Speaker 4>kind of like a bit of a pet peeve where

0:30:30.487 --> 0:30:31.967
<v Speaker 4>I feel like I spent a lot of my life,

0:30:32.047 --> 0:30:34.047
<v Speaker 4>you know, in charge and in a leadership kind of

0:30:34.127 --> 0:30:37.887
<v Speaker 4>role as a business owner, and I really appreciated it

0:30:37.967 --> 0:30:40.887
<v Speaker 4>when the person that I was dating would take charge

0:30:40.887 --> 0:30:42.527
<v Speaker 4>and take some initiative in terms of what are we

0:30:42.527 --> 0:30:44.287
<v Speaker 4>doing for the first date or the second date. And

0:30:44.647 --> 0:30:46.687
<v Speaker 4>it's kind of owned some of those decisions because I

0:30:46.727 --> 0:30:49.007
<v Speaker 4>will naturally go to that role. But I really like

0:30:49.047 --> 0:30:51.767
<v Speaker 4>it when I'm relieved of that role. And I remember

0:30:52.807 --> 0:30:54.487
<v Speaker 4>Neo texted me and he said, so, I've been thinking

0:30:54.527 --> 0:30:56.967
<v Speaker 4>about what we could do for our first date, and

0:30:57.167 --> 0:30:58.567
<v Speaker 4>what do you reckon about going bowling?

0:30:59.247 --> 0:31:01.807
<v Speaker 1>And I thought, oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

0:31:01.847 --> 0:31:04.527
<v Speaker 4>Like he's you know, a bit like quirky and creative,

0:31:04.727 --> 0:31:06.527
<v Speaker 4>and he's put some thought into it, and he had

0:31:06.527 --> 0:31:09.087
<v Speaker 4>his reasons for suggesting bowling. And then we go for

0:31:09.087 --> 0:31:12.487
<v Speaker 4>a drink afterwards. So we went ten pin bowling, and

0:31:12.847 --> 0:31:17.367
<v Speaker 4>I remember there was just really fun eighties music blasting

0:31:17.407 --> 0:31:21.167
<v Speaker 4>over the speakers, and you know, this like one or

0:31:21.207 --> 0:31:24.447
<v Speaker 4>two hour, you know, several games of bowling. It was

0:31:24.527 --> 0:31:26.847
<v Speaker 4>just it was fun and it was silly, and it

0:31:26.927 --> 0:31:31.327
<v Speaker 4>was lighthearted and it was flirty, and you know that,

0:31:31.487 --> 0:31:34.007
<v Speaker 4>like there was a bit of conversation, but there wasn't

0:31:34.007 --> 0:31:36.647
<v Speaker 4>pressure on the conversation. And then when we went to

0:31:36.727 --> 0:31:40.047
<v Speaker 4>a bar afterwards, it's like we just you know, delvet

0:31:40.087 --> 0:31:42.287
<v Speaker 4>in the conversation I think the date ended at like

0:31:42.887 --> 0:31:45.087
<v Speaker 4>two in the morning, which I made like my my

0:31:45.127 --> 0:31:46.407
<v Speaker 4>bedtimes ten.

0:31:46.687 --> 0:31:48.967
<v Speaker 2>I know you're alive. That's what I know about you.

0:31:48.967 --> 0:31:50.887
<v Speaker 2>You're a lark. It's you're an early morning person.

0:31:51.487 --> 0:31:53.847
<v Speaker 4>I am so like, I don't do two am, but

0:31:53.887 --> 0:31:54.927
<v Speaker 4>on this first date I did.

0:31:55.127 --> 0:31:55.727
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:31:56.087 --> 0:31:58.727
<v Speaker 2>So it was pretty obvious straight away that this was

0:31:58.927 --> 0:32:03.087
<v Speaker 2>special and different to those other fifty first dates very much,

0:32:05.047 --> 0:32:08.567
<v Speaker 2>and so did was it all sort of plain sailing

0:32:08.647 --> 0:32:12.327
<v Speaker 2>from there? I mean, we've already put a spoiler at

0:32:12.327 --> 0:32:14.127
<v Speaker 2>the beginning of this episode, which is that you are

0:32:14.127 --> 0:32:16.367
<v Speaker 2>getting married and Neo is the man you're getting married to.

0:32:16.487 --> 0:32:20.047
<v Speaker 2>But I guess what I want to know is, you know,

0:32:20.127 --> 0:32:23.687
<v Speaker 2>when you are falling in love in mid you've got

0:32:23.727 --> 0:32:26.007
<v Speaker 2>it's very different in a way from when you're young

0:32:26.087 --> 0:32:30.607
<v Speaker 2>and you're you know, you haven't got all the experiences

0:32:30.647 --> 0:32:33.287
<v Speaker 2>in the wisdom of what can go wrong or how

0:32:33.407 --> 0:32:37.567
<v Speaker 2>sometimes things that start beautifully can fall apart, or sometimes

0:32:37.607 --> 0:32:41.207
<v Speaker 2>people who charm the pants off you, maybe literally, maybe figuratively,

0:32:41.647 --> 0:32:44.327
<v Speaker 2>can then turn out to have some serious red flags

0:32:44.807 --> 0:32:47.447
<v Speaker 2>and that can make us all you know, it can

0:32:47.607 --> 0:32:51.447
<v Speaker 2>it can complicate things, right because we're wiser and more experienced,

0:32:51.447 --> 0:32:55.007
<v Speaker 2>but that also can mean we're more guarded, Like how

0:32:55.127 --> 0:32:57.767
<v Speaker 2>was it was it immediate that you could trust him

0:32:57.807 --> 0:32:59.767
<v Speaker 2>that things were going to go well? Like how did

0:32:59.807 --> 0:33:00.407
<v Speaker 2>it progress?

0:33:01.487 --> 0:33:04.247
<v Speaker 4>There were two things that I think about that I

0:33:04.247 --> 0:33:06.967
<v Speaker 4>think served me really well in terms of navigating that.

0:33:07.687 --> 0:33:12.047
<v Speaker 4>The first is that I became really good through all

0:33:12.047 --> 0:33:15.367
<v Speaker 4>the dating that I did over those two years just keeping.

0:33:15.087 --> 0:33:18.647
<v Speaker 1>An eye on whether words.

0:33:18.487 --> 0:33:21.327
<v Speaker 4>Matched actions, because people can say a lot of good

0:33:21.367 --> 0:33:24.967
<v Speaker 4>words in dating, but often the actions or the behavior

0:33:25.367 --> 0:33:29.207
<v Speaker 4>won't align with those words. And what became really clear,

0:33:29.247 --> 0:33:33.447
<v Speaker 4>particularly in those first six months where you're falling in

0:33:33.607 --> 0:33:37.407
<v Speaker 4>love but you're also getting to know someone well and

0:33:37.407 --> 0:33:39.007
<v Speaker 4>certainly like you know, in the three years that we've

0:33:39.007 --> 0:33:43.847
<v Speaker 4>been together, is that the words always matched the actions,

0:33:43.967 --> 0:33:45.447
<v Speaker 4>And for me, that was really important.

0:33:46.247 --> 0:33:48.327
<v Speaker 1>The second thing that was really helpful is.

0:33:48.287 --> 0:33:52.847
<v Speaker 4>That I had done maybe I've been, you know, in

0:33:52.887 --> 0:33:55.927
<v Speaker 4>and out of therapy for a lot of my life.

0:33:55.927 --> 0:33:58.327
<v Speaker 4>I think as a psychologist, even though I'm an organizational

0:33:58.407 --> 0:34:02.447
<v Speaker 4>psychologist not a clinical one, I've always just really believed

0:34:02.487 --> 0:34:04.687
<v Speaker 4>in the value of therapy, and so, you know, I've

0:34:04.727 --> 0:34:07.967
<v Speaker 4>had chunks of my life where I've been very committed

0:34:08.007 --> 0:34:08.567
<v Speaker 4>to therapy.

0:34:08.687 --> 0:34:10.447
<v Speaker 1>And during those two.

0:34:10.287 --> 0:34:16.447
<v Speaker 4>Years of dating, I was seeing a therapist fortnightly, sometimes weekly,

0:34:16.687 --> 0:34:19.967
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of the discussion was around relationships and

0:34:20.047 --> 0:34:23.687
<v Speaker 4>dating and experiences that I was having. And what I

0:34:23.727 --> 0:34:27.807
<v Speaker 4>came to realize is, you know, and I imagine you've

0:34:27.847 --> 0:34:32.367
<v Speaker 4>probably had guests talk about attachment theory, and what I

0:34:32.447 --> 0:34:35.607
<v Speaker 4>learned about myself is that I have the tendency to

0:34:36.127 --> 0:34:38.887
<v Speaker 4>have like an anxious attachment system like that can get

0:34:38.887 --> 0:34:42.927
<v Speaker 4>activated where I'm not sure where I stand. But I

0:34:42.927 --> 0:34:46.447
<v Speaker 4>think when you've got that anxious attachment system being activated,

0:34:47.047 --> 0:34:50.167
<v Speaker 4>what tends to happen when you're in those early stages

0:34:50.207 --> 0:34:52.727
<v Speaker 4>of dating and you're kind of not quite sure where

0:34:52.727 --> 0:34:54.167
<v Speaker 4>you stand, You're not quite sure if they feel the

0:34:54.207 --> 0:34:59.287
<v Speaker 4>same way. You can confuse that anxiety for lust or

0:34:59.567 --> 0:35:00.727
<v Speaker 4>god to be love.

0:35:00.607 --> 0:35:03.647
<v Speaker 2>For butterflies and the yes, Can I just ask you

0:35:03.727 --> 0:35:06.367
<v Speaker 2>on that? MEA did an episode of No Filter about

0:35:06.367 --> 0:35:08.487
<v Speaker 2>attachment theory with an expert, and we'll put a link

0:35:08.527 --> 0:35:12.207
<v Speaker 2>in the show notes. But is the ideal situation that

0:35:12.327 --> 0:35:15.247
<v Speaker 2>you and the person you pair with have the same

0:35:15.327 --> 0:35:19.647
<v Speaker 2>attachment type or that you have complementary attachment types.

0:35:21.567 --> 0:35:24.607
<v Speaker 4>I would say one thing you don't want is you

0:35:24.647 --> 0:35:27.567
<v Speaker 4>don't want someone who who is kind of.

0:35:27.887 --> 0:35:30.447
<v Speaker 1>Anxiously attached matching.

0:35:30.087 --> 0:35:33.767
<v Speaker 4>With someone who is an avoidant where they avoid intimacy.

0:35:34.207 --> 0:35:37.927
<v Speaker 4>That like, if you look at any unhealthy relationship or

0:35:38.047 --> 0:35:42.767
<v Speaker 4>kind of dating situation, there's a high probability that that.

0:35:42.607 --> 0:35:44.407
<v Speaker 1>Pattern the problem is going on.

0:35:45.047 --> 0:35:47.847
<v Speaker 4>But the thing is like, based on the person who

0:35:47.887 --> 0:35:52.287
<v Speaker 4>you're with, and depending also on what their attachment style is,

0:35:53.047 --> 0:35:56.127
<v Speaker 4>that can bring out a different attachment style in you.

0:35:56.247 --> 0:36:00.047
<v Speaker 4>So what I felt with Neo and what I think

0:36:00.047 --> 0:36:02.367
<v Speaker 4>if I hadn't gone through those two years of therapy,

0:36:02.407 --> 0:36:05.087
<v Speaker 4>I would have misinterpreted what was going on is that

0:36:05.607 --> 0:36:08.527
<v Speaker 4>I didn't like I felt butterflies, and I felt excited

0:36:08.567 --> 0:36:13.887
<v Speaker 4>to see him, but I didn't feel that anxiety that

0:36:13.967 --> 0:36:17.887
<v Speaker 4>I in past situations had mistaken for falling in love.

0:36:18.447 --> 0:36:22.487
<v Speaker 4>It just felt like I felt really safe, and I

0:36:22.487 --> 0:36:26.247
<v Speaker 4>don't think i'd experienced that with anyone that I dated.

0:36:26.287 --> 0:36:30.447
<v Speaker 4>I knew exactly where I stood, and what happened with

0:36:30.527 --> 0:36:34.447
<v Speaker 4>that experience with this, I guess secure attachment that Neo

0:36:34.887 --> 0:36:37.727
<v Speaker 4>offered me, and just this confidence in where we stood

0:36:38.247 --> 0:36:42.487
<v Speaker 4>it meant that my anxious attachment system wasn't activated. And

0:36:42.567 --> 0:36:46.807
<v Speaker 4>so therefore it's like I was just really present, and

0:36:46.847 --> 0:36:49.127
<v Speaker 4>I wasn't making up stories in my mind, and I

0:36:49.287 --> 0:36:52.127
<v Speaker 4>wasn't thinking that, oh, because I feel this way, it

0:36:52.167 --> 0:36:53.807
<v Speaker 4>must mean that I'm madly in love and.

0:36:53.767 --> 0:36:54.647
<v Speaker 1>This is my person.

0:36:55.167 --> 0:36:57.687
<v Speaker 4>Instead, I knew it was coming from I guess, like,

0:36:57.847 --> 0:36:59.167
<v Speaker 4>you know, a more secure place.

0:37:00.287 --> 0:37:00.487
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:37:00.567 --> 0:37:03.687
<v Speaker 2>I've heard you and Neo interviewed, and it's clear that

0:37:03.767 --> 0:37:07.207
<v Speaker 2>you are you have a lot of shared passions. You're

0:37:07.247 --> 0:37:11.967
<v Speaker 2>both really curious, really interested in experimenting with different ways

0:37:11.967 --> 0:37:15.367
<v Speaker 2>of living, different health things, different habits. Tell me a

0:37:15.407 --> 0:37:18.967
<v Speaker 2>little bit about how you knew that he was indeed

0:37:19.007 --> 0:37:21.607
<v Speaker 2>your person in this healthy way.

0:37:22.207 --> 0:37:25.087
<v Speaker 4>Oh gosh, I mean there there were so many things.

0:37:25.527 --> 0:37:28.887
<v Speaker 4>I think one thing that we do that was a

0:37:28.927 --> 0:37:32.767
<v Speaker 4>monthly ritual. We've sort of we've we've adapted the ritual slightly,

0:37:32.807 --> 0:37:34.887
<v Speaker 4>but for the first couple of years of the relationship.

0:37:35.047 --> 0:37:37.967
<v Speaker 4>And I think there was some Neo's suggestion, but the

0:37:38.007 --> 0:37:40.567
<v Speaker 4>fact that it was Neo's suggestion, but it could have

0:37:40.607 --> 0:37:41.487
<v Speaker 4>been mine's suggestion.

0:37:41.727 --> 0:37:43.927
<v Speaker 1>I just don't I can't remember tells you a lot.

0:37:44.087 --> 0:37:47.127
<v Speaker 4>It's just like how similar we are in terms of

0:37:47.167 --> 0:37:50.727
<v Speaker 4>our mindedness. Is that we decided that we would have

0:37:50.767 --> 0:37:53.007
<v Speaker 4>a monthly meeting about our relationship.

0:37:53.447 --> 0:37:55.567
<v Speaker 1>We used to call it a monthly check in. Wow,

0:37:55.647 --> 0:37:57.087
<v Speaker 1>we still call it. We still call it our monthly

0:37:57.167 --> 0:37:57.407
<v Speaker 1>check in.

0:37:57.567 --> 0:38:00.607
<v Speaker 4>And we devised a series of questions and I can

0:38:00.727 --> 0:38:02.087
<v Speaker 4>share some of them with you.

0:38:02.087 --> 0:38:05.007
<v Speaker 1>You know. Yeah, yeah, that would basically.

0:38:04.607 --> 0:38:09.167
<v Speaker 4>Be a chance where we actually have time carved out,

0:38:09.287 --> 0:38:10.927
<v Speaker 4>and typically it was on a date night. You know,

0:38:10.927 --> 0:38:13.487
<v Speaker 4>we would go out to a restaurant or you know,

0:38:13.527 --> 0:38:17.847
<v Speaker 4>we've got that space where we're actually talking and reflecting

0:38:17.967 --> 0:38:20.767
<v Speaker 4>about us and about how we're behaving towards each other

0:38:20.767 --> 0:38:23.807
<v Speaker 4>and about how we're feeling. So you know, some of

0:38:23.847 --> 0:38:28.007
<v Speaker 4>the questions like somewhere about you know, acknowledging the positives.

0:38:28.047 --> 0:38:31.487
<v Speaker 4>Like one question was what are we appreciating most about

0:38:31.527 --> 0:38:35.287
<v Speaker 4>the other person? Which is so simple, but it's really

0:38:35.327 --> 0:38:37.927
<v Speaker 4>powerful to actually sit down with your partner once a

0:38:38.007 --> 0:38:41.607
<v Speaker 4>month and here, what are they appreciating and also think

0:38:41.607 --> 0:38:44.927
<v Speaker 4>about that to them. You know, we also would talk

0:38:44.967 --> 0:38:47.647
<v Speaker 4>about what do we need from the other person that

0:38:47.727 --> 0:38:51.727
<v Speaker 4>we're not getting, which again, just having that space where

0:38:52.127 --> 0:38:54.727
<v Speaker 4>a lot of times that's an uncomfortable conversation to have,

0:38:54.847 --> 0:38:58.167
<v Speaker 4>but if you've got this time carved out where like

0:38:58.527 --> 0:39:00.687
<v Speaker 4>there is space and the freedom to just go, Okay,

0:39:00.727 --> 0:39:02.287
<v Speaker 4>this is the conversation that we're having, and it feels

0:39:02.367 --> 0:39:06.207
<v Speaker 4>much more comfortable to bring that up. We also like

0:39:06.287 --> 0:39:08.847
<v Speaker 4>reflect and go what have been our best connection moments

0:39:08.967 --> 0:39:12.487
<v Speaker 4>in the month just gone, and again being mindful, because

0:39:12.527 --> 0:39:15.127
<v Speaker 4>if we're mindful of those, then we can go, how

0:39:15.127 --> 0:39:18.167
<v Speaker 4>can we recreate more of those those really powerful moments?

0:39:18.527 --> 0:39:21.447
<v Speaker 4>So they're just some examples, and so we did that

0:39:21.487 --> 0:39:24.287
<v Speaker 4>pretty religiously for a good two and a half years.

0:39:24.647 --> 0:39:27.847
<v Speaker 2>And that shows obviously your compatibility because there would be

0:39:27.847 --> 0:39:30.807
<v Speaker 2>some people you could be dating who you'd say, I

0:39:30.847 --> 0:39:32.367
<v Speaker 2>think we should do this, and they'd be like, are

0:39:32.407 --> 0:39:36.247
<v Speaker 2>you joking? That would be their worst nightmare. They would

0:39:36.287 --> 0:39:39.807
<v Speaker 2>be running out the door. So it's beautiful that you've

0:39:39.807 --> 0:39:42.087
<v Speaker 2>found somebody who you know that you found each other

0:39:42.287 --> 0:39:45.887
<v Speaker 2>rather in this way. Tell me a little bit too

0:39:46.007 --> 0:39:48.567
<v Speaker 2>for the listeners who are dating and they've got kids.

0:39:48.687 --> 0:39:51.807
<v Speaker 2>You obviously you have a daughter. She's ten. NEO doesn't

0:39:51.807 --> 0:39:53.527
<v Speaker 2>have kids, is that right, correct?

0:39:53.607 --> 0:39:53.807
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:39:53.887 --> 0:39:56.727
<v Speaker 2>But being you and the very mindful person you are,

0:39:56.807 --> 0:39:59.407
<v Speaker 2>I know that you were did a lot of researching

0:39:59.487 --> 0:40:02.127
<v Speaker 2>the best way to introduce this person who you knew

0:40:02.167 --> 0:40:04.567
<v Speaker 2>was going to be around to your daughter. Tell me

0:40:04.607 --> 0:40:07.007
<v Speaker 2>what you learned about that and what worked and what didn't.

0:40:07.447 --> 0:40:10.727
<v Speaker 4>I think, so midway through my whole day experience, I

0:40:10.767 --> 0:40:14.247
<v Speaker 4>had this conversation with Michael kar Greg, who I guess is,

0:40:14.247 --> 0:40:17.527
<v Speaker 4>you know, probably one of the most well known psychologists,

0:40:17.527 --> 0:40:20.687
<v Speaker 4>I think as a child psychologist or a clinical psych Yeah.

0:40:20.847 --> 0:40:24.927
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and his advice really.

0:40:25.247 --> 0:40:28.527
<v Speaker 4>Formed I guess some of the principles that I had

0:40:28.727 --> 0:40:33.087
<v Speaker 4>around how was I going to integrate this person that

0:40:33.167 --> 0:40:36.287
<v Speaker 4>I knew I wanted to be my life partner into

0:40:36.567 --> 0:40:40.327
<v Speaker 4>Frankie's world, my daughter. And there are a few things

0:40:40.407 --> 0:40:44.327
<v Speaker 4>that he gave advice on. He said, ideally, wait at

0:40:44.407 --> 0:40:49.607
<v Speaker 4>least six months before introducing your new partner to your daughter,

0:40:49.767 --> 0:40:53.247
<v Speaker 4>and his reasons for that. And actually Nia was the

0:40:53.287 --> 0:40:56.007
<v Speaker 4>only person I dated that Frankie did end up meeting,

0:40:56.407 --> 0:40:59.727
<v Speaker 4>because obviously, if you go through a divorce, I mean,

0:40:59.727 --> 0:41:02.887
<v Speaker 4>that is an enormous amount of change and instability, and

0:41:02.927 --> 0:41:06.247
<v Speaker 4>I just wanted to protect her from any more of

0:41:06.287 --> 0:41:10.287
<v Speaker 4>that wherever that was in my control. And so I

0:41:10.287 --> 0:41:14.087
<v Speaker 4>think I felt like six months was long enough to go. Yeah,

0:41:14.167 --> 0:41:17.847
<v Speaker 4>there is a very very high likelihood that this person

0:41:18.167 --> 0:41:20.887
<v Speaker 4>will be around for a very very long time. And

0:41:20.927 --> 0:41:22.767
<v Speaker 4>so I wanted to be really clear on that before

0:41:23.247 --> 0:41:26.167
<v Speaker 4>Frankie and Neo met. Neo and I actually spend a

0:41:26.167 --> 0:41:31.007
<v Speaker 4>lot of time like curating what would that first meeting be, Like,

0:41:31.407 --> 0:41:33.487
<v Speaker 4>A lot of thought went into that, like, for example,

0:41:33.527 --> 0:41:36.487
<v Speaker 4>we wanted it to be on Frankie's home ground, because

0:41:36.487 --> 0:41:38.127
<v Speaker 4>it could have been at Neo's place, it could have

0:41:38.207 --> 0:41:40.847
<v Speaker 4>been in a neutral place like a cafe or a park,

0:41:40.927 --> 0:41:42.847
<v Speaker 4>but we wanted it to be in the place where

0:41:42.887 --> 0:41:46.367
<v Speaker 4>Frankie felt safest, and that was at my home.

0:41:46.967 --> 0:41:50.047
<v Speaker 1>And then we also wanted kind of a fun activity.

0:41:50.087 --> 0:41:52.407
<v Speaker 4>So it wasn't this like intense, Okay, let's just sit

0:41:52.447 --> 0:41:55.127
<v Speaker 4>down and have a big long conversation, you know, over

0:41:55.127 --> 0:41:57.007
<v Speaker 4>a meal or something that you know that can be

0:41:57.047 --> 0:41:59.807
<v Speaker 4>maybe a bit intense. We thought, what's like a fun

0:42:00.007 --> 0:42:03.407
<v Speaker 4>activity that we can all do together, And so we

0:42:03.527 --> 0:42:05.767
<v Speaker 4>decided that we'd make pizza together. And so Neo went

0:42:05.767 --> 0:42:08.607
<v Speaker 4>to all this trouble to cook pizza dough from scratch

0:42:08.687 --> 0:42:11.967
<v Speaker 4>the night for but the yeast was off and the

0:42:12.047 --> 0:42:15.567
<v Speaker 4>pizza dove failed, and so he was like stressing about

0:42:15.607 --> 0:42:16.607
<v Speaker 4>his pizza dough that has failed.

0:42:16.727 --> 0:42:17.367
<v Speaker 1>Ended up going to the.

0:42:17.287 --> 0:42:21.847
<v Speaker 4>Supermarket and border base and then we made pizza together,

0:42:22.007 --> 0:42:24.407
<v Speaker 4>and then I think we ended up watching a movie

0:42:24.407 --> 0:42:27.007
<v Speaker 4>together that afternoon, So a lot of thought went into

0:42:27.007 --> 0:42:28.687
<v Speaker 4>that and just thinking what is going to make this

0:42:29.167 --> 0:42:32.127
<v Speaker 4>the best and most positive and most comfortable experience for Frankie.

0:42:32.167 --> 0:42:36.207
<v Speaker 2>Were you really nervous because I imagine, I mean without obviously

0:42:36.207 --> 0:42:38.287
<v Speaker 2>wanting to pry into Frankie's world at all, but I

0:42:38.287 --> 0:42:41.407
<v Speaker 2>imagine for you you're thinking, I really love this guy,

0:42:41.607 --> 0:42:44.527
<v Speaker 2>like I can see a future. But if she hates him,

0:42:44.647 --> 0:42:46.807
<v Speaker 2>or if she's not comfortable in his presence or if

0:42:46.847 --> 0:42:50.727
<v Speaker 2>she's not if this doesn't work, then this changes everything.

0:42:50.887 --> 0:42:53.247
<v Speaker 2>So were you really nervous about that meeting too?

0:42:54.607 --> 0:42:59.767
<v Speaker 4>It's funny I was more nervous about telling Frankie that

0:42:59.847 --> 0:43:03.007
<v Speaker 4>I'd been dating someone, right, because she didn't know anything

0:43:03.047 --> 0:43:06.087
<v Speaker 4>about my dating life. She didn't, you know, Like I

0:43:06.327 --> 0:43:09.687
<v Speaker 4>kept that very very separate to my role as a

0:43:09.727 --> 0:43:12.487
<v Speaker 4>mom with Frankie. Were other friends of mine had made

0:43:12.487 --> 0:43:14.727
<v Speaker 4>different choices, and you know that they might have had

0:43:14.727 --> 0:43:16.807
<v Speaker 4>older kids where that actually showed them the apps and

0:43:16.847 --> 0:43:17.727
<v Speaker 4>get them a bit involved.

0:43:17.727 --> 0:43:20.527
<v Speaker 1>But Frankie had no idea. And I remember one.

0:43:20.447 --> 0:43:23.487
<v Speaker 4>Night, like I you know, we were sitting in bed talking,

0:43:23.647 --> 0:43:25.927
<v Speaker 4>you know, before bedtime, and I remember I was so

0:43:26.047 --> 0:43:28.127
<v Speaker 4>nervous and I shared the news with her and I said,

0:43:28.207 --> 0:43:31.967
<v Speaker 4>I've you know, I've met Somemon and we've been dating,

0:43:32.047 --> 0:43:34.087
<v Speaker 4>and I'd really like you to meet them.

0:43:34.087 --> 0:43:37.167
<v Speaker 1>Would you like to meet them? And she like she

0:43:37.247 --> 0:43:37.847
<v Speaker 1>was all excited.

0:43:37.847 --> 0:43:40.127
<v Speaker 4>She said, oh, does that mean you're getting married and

0:43:40.167 --> 0:43:42.967
<v Speaker 4>I get to go to a wedding?

0:43:43.487 --> 0:43:44.927
<v Speaker 1>And I think she was stabbed at the time.

0:43:44.927 --> 0:43:47.407
<v Speaker 4>Maybe when I say no, it doesn't quite mean that,

0:43:47.687 --> 0:43:51.407
<v Speaker 4>but and anyway, so it went from there, and then

0:43:51.407 --> 0:43:53.407
<v Speaker 4>I think about a week later we had the meeting.

0:43:53.407 --> 0:43:56.527
<v Speaker 4>So I was actually more nervous about that, just telling

0:43:56.567 --> 0:44:00.207
<v Speaker 4>her that, like her mom, who she's only ever known

0:44:00.327 --> 0:44:03.967
<v Speaker 4>in relation to her dad, is now bringing another man

0:44:04.167 --> 0:44:07.567
<v Speaker 4>into this family system. So that was really nerve wracking.

0:44:07.847 --> 0:44:10.687
<v Speaker 4>But she was like really good and happy about that.

0:44:11.127 --> 0:44:15.567
<v Speaker 4>I actually wasn't nervous about how Frankie and Neo would

0:44:15.567 --> 0:44:19.407
<v Speaker 4>get along, because yeah, I just wasn't nervous about that.

0:44:19.447 --> 0:44:22.007
<v Speaker 1>I just I just knew that they.

0:44:21.887 --> 0:44:26.407
<v Speaker 4>Would and I knew like just what a beautiful, kind

0:44:26.447 --> 0:44:29.847
<v Speaker 4>of fun person Neo was and just how caring and

0:44:29.967 --> 0:44:33.767
<v Speaker 4>thoughtful he was, and I just thought, man, like, you know,

0:44:34.447 --> 0:44:36.767
<v Speaker 4>I just think Frankie is you know, just the luckiest

0:44:36.807 --> 0:44:40.567
<v Speaker 4>girl to have like this amazing male role model, you know,

0:44:40.607 --> 0:44:43.127
<v Speaker 4>in addition to her dad like in her life.

0:44:43.247 --> 0:44:50.287
<v Speaker 2>Oh how gorgeous after this break? How did Amantha know

0:44:50.407 --> 0:44:53.167
<v Speaker 2>she was ready to get married again? Stay right here,

0:44:53.327 --> 0:44:58.407
<v Speaker 2>we'll be back in a minute. We've got to get

0:44:58.447 --> 0:45:00.327
<v Speaker 2>to the point at which you have decided to get

0:45:00.367 --> 0:45:06.087
<v Speaker 2>married again. So tell me, was this always did you?

0:45:06.607 --> 0:45:09.967
<v Speaker 2>After your divorce? Were you did you think I'm not

0:45:10.007 --> 0:45:12.167
<v Speaker 2>going to get married again? Or is it something you

0:45:12.167 --> 0:45:14.407
<v Speaker 2>were very keen to happen or what? And how did

0:45:14.447 --> 0:45:15.007
<v Speaker 2>it come about?

0:45:15.887 --> 0:45:18.167
<v Speaker 4>I would say I just had no attachment to it.

0:45:18.487 --> 0:45:21.047
<v Speaker 4>I thought maybe I will, maybe I won't. It wasn't

0:45:21.047 --> 0:45:23.927
<v Speaker 4>something I was aspiring to. It wasn't something I was

0:45:24.007 --> 0:45:29.207
<v Speaker 4>aiming for. But I remember about two years into our relationship,

0:45:29.247 --> 0:45:30.967
<v Speaker 4>you know, we talked about this. We talked a lot

0:45:31.007 --> 0:45:34.767
<v Speaker 4>about our views on marriage. Neo felt pretty similarly to me,

0:45:35.047 --> 0:45:36.887
<v Speaker 4>and that, you know, he'd been married before, he'd been

0:45:36.887 --> 0:45:39.007
<v Speaker 4>married for nineteen years or with his last partner for

0:45:39.087 --> 0:45:40.807
<v Speaker 4>nineteen years, and.

0:45:42.367 --> 0:45:44.447
<v Speaker 1>You know, we could both give or take marriage.

0:45:44.767 --> 0:45:47.487
<v Speaker 4>And then I remember we'd been on the Separate Bathrooms

0:45:47.527 --> 0:45:51.127
<v Speaker 4>podcast together when I was promoting The Health Habit, my

0:45:51.247 --> 0:45:55.887
<v Speaker 4>last book, and they had introduced Neo as my husband,

0:45:56.207 --> 0:45:57.727
<v Speaker 4>and we just had like a bit of a laugh

0:45:57.767 --> 0:46:00.447
<v Speaker 4>about it. Afterwards, I heard that, I was like, that's

0:46:00.447 --> 0:46:04.007
<v Speaker 4>a bit awkward, But because we talked about it so much,

0:46:04.087 --> 0:46:05.047
<v Speaker 4>it just wasn't awkward.

0:46:05.047 --> 0:46:05.687
<v Speaker 1>But I can imagine it.

0:46:05.687 --> 0:46:08.847
<v Speaker 4>Would have been awkward for us for some people, but anyway,

0:46:08.847 --> 0:46:11.127
<v Speaker 4>it just we I remember we went on a walk

0:46:11.167 --> 0:46:14.567
<v Speaker 4>a little bit after we'd recorded that podcast episode, and

0:46:15.447 --> 0:46:17.847
<v Speaker 4>you know, I said like, like, where are you at,

0:46:17.887 --> 0:46:19.407
<v Speaker 4>Like what do you think about getting married? And we

0:46:19.487 --> 0:46:23.447
<v Speaker 4>just had this like walking conversation where we talked about

0:46:23.527 --> 0:46:26.327
<v Speaker 4>for both of us in a very similar way, our

0:46:26.407 --> 0:46:30.607
<v Speaker 4>views on marriage had changed, and we felt that it

0:46:30.687 --> 0:46:34.647
<v Speaker 4>was actually something that had started to feel important. And

0:46:35.047 --> 0:46:38.367
<v Speaker 4>I think also thinking about Frankie and the security that

0:46:38.447 --> 0:46:42.887
<v Speaker 4>she feels, I thought, you know, as a child, when

0:46:42.887 --> 0:46:46.087
<v Speaker 4>you've been through a divorce, I think there's something that

0:46:46.527 --> 0:46:50.087
<v Speaker 4>maybe feels like there's some stability when there is a marriage.

0:46:50.407 --> 0:46:53.927
<v Speaker 4>And you know, again like no judgment on anyone else's choices,

0:46:53.967 --> 0:46:56.607
<v Speaker 4>but it just felt right for us, and so we

0:46:57.487 --> 0:46:59.847
<v Speaker 4>decided then we sort of said, I think this is

0:46:59.887 --> 0:47:03.367
<v Speaker 4>something that we want to do. And I'm about six

0:47:03.407 --> 0:47:07.047
<v Speaker 4>months after that conversation, Neo proposed when we were on

0:47:07.087 --> 0:47:09.687
<v Speaker 4>a holiday, and so it was kind of it was

0:47:09.767 --> 0:47:13.607
<v Speaker 4>absolutely beautiful, but it wasn't a surprise because of that conversation.

0:47:14.047 --> 0:47:17.247
<v Speaker 2>Gorgeous and so you're getting married next year? Is this

0:47:17.367 --> 0:47:19.327
<v Speaker 2>and what will be different about this wedding?

0:47:20.927 --> 0:47:22.167
<v Speaker 1>Ah, what will be different?

0:47:22.247 --> 0:47:24.247
<v Speaker 4>Look, I mean my first wedding was pretty low key,

0:47:24.367 --> 0:47:28.087
<v Speaker 4>but this is it's a small wedding. It's just our

0:47:28.087 --> 0:47:31.247
<v Speaker 4>close friends and family, so about fifty people and where

0:47:31.487 --> 0:47:32.087
<v Speaker 4>we're doing it.

0:47:32.047 --> 0:47:32.687
<v Speaker 1>In our house.

0:47:33.047 --> 0:47:35.647
<v Speaker 2>Oh, how Gorgeous got like.

0:47:35.567 --> 0:47:37.767
<v Speaker 4>A wonderful celebrant who used to be a pop star

0:47:37.807 --> 0:47:42.367
<v Speaker 4>in the eighties and she's super fun, perfect and it's

0:47:42.647 --> 0:47:47.367
<v Speaker 4>not overstated. It's small, it's intimate, it's meaningful. It's kind

0:47:47.407 --> 0:47:49.047
<v Speaker 4>of so happy you want to.

0:47:49.127 --> 0:47:51.007
<v Speaker 2>He looks so happy a Manthia, You're like when you're

0:47:51.047 --> 0:47:54.167
<v Speaker 2>talk about it, you're just beaming. It's just gorgeous. It

0:47:54.207 --> 0:47:57.767
<v Speaker 2>makes me very happy. But if someone is listening to

0:47:57.807 --> 0:48:01.487
<v Speaker 2>this who maybe has been through a relationship breakup and

0:48:01.647 --> 0:48:03.447
<v Speaker 2>is thinking I'm never going to meet him, I would

0:48:03.527 --> 0:48:05.607
<v Speaker 2>liked it, like you I would, because not everybody does.

0:48:05.647 --> 0:48:06.887
<v Speaker 2>There are a lot of women in med who are

0:48:06.887 --> 0:48:09.127
<v Speaker 2>like I never want to repartner. I don't want to

0:48:09.247 --> 0:48:12.447
<v Speaker 2>look after anybody. I don't want to repeat any of

0:48:12.487 --> 0:48:14.767
<v Speaker 2>those things. I'm just going to live that, which is great.

0:48:14.807 --> 0:48:17.487
<v Speaker 2>But if you, if like you, you're thinking life is

0:48:17.527 --> 0:48:21.567
<v Speaker 2>better shared, what's your best piece of advice for how

0:48:21.607 --> 0:48:22.407
<v Speaker 2>to handle that?

0:48:23.487 --> 0:48:27.607
<v Speaker 4>I would say, get really clear on what you're looking

0:48:27.647 --> 0:48:31.127
<v Speaker 4>for and what your most what you won't compromise on.

0:48:31.807 --> 0:48:34.967
<v Speaker 4>I think the quality of your decisions when you're going

0:48:35.007 --> 0:48:39.087
<v Speaker 4>through a dating process where you are making literally thousands

0:48:39.087 --> 0:48:42.447
<v Speaker 4>of decisions if you're using the apps, the more clear

0:48:42.527 --> 0:48:46.047
<v Speaker 4>you can be on what matters to you, I think,

0:48:46.087 --> 0:48:47.447
<v Speaker 4>the better your outcome will be.

0:48:48.527 --> 0:48:52.487
<v Speaker 2>And that's very good advice. Amantha. I love your love story.

0:48:52.687 --> 0:48:56.007
<v Speaker 2>I'm so happy for you and Neo. I'm so happy.

0:48:56.047 --> 0:49:01.247
<v Speaker 2>I can't wait to see your wedding pictures somewhere, and

0:49:01.807 --> 0:49:09.047
<v Speaker 2>thank you also for your wisdom as always, look, I

0:49:09.367 --> 0:49:12.447
<v Speaker 2>us love that conversation. Amantha is getting married in March

0:49:12.647 --> 0:49:15.567
<v Speaker 2>to Neo, and what I particular love about that is,

0:49:15.607 --> 0:49:18.207
<v Speaker 2>you know, Mike gran would have said, every pot has

0:49:18.207 --> 0:49:23.167
<v Speaker 2>its lid. If your pot is a little bit different

0:49:23.207 --> 0:49:26.847
<v Speaker 2>to other people's pots. That's okay. I love how specific

0:49:26.927 --> 0:49:30.207
<v Speaker 2>Amantha was. It's a wonderful story. But if you are

0:49:30.247 --> 0:49:34.327
<v Speaker 2>after more dating stories about midlife, then please do listen

0:49:34.327 --> 0:49:35.967
<v Speaker 2>to the episode I told you about at the Front

0:49:36.327 --> 0:49:39.447
<v Speaker 2>with Catherine Mahoney. It's very funny. But also if you

0:49:39.487 --> 0:49:42.447
<v Speaker 2>are in the throes of divorce and you're going through

0:49:42.607 --> 0:49:45.727
<v Speaker 2>the horrors of that, that can be incredibly difficult, knock

0:49:45.767 --> 0:49:48.327
<v Speaker 2>you around unbelievably. I want you to go and listen

0:49:48.367 --> 0:49:51.567
<v Speaker 2>to the episode we did with Nicki Parkinson because it

0:49:51.647 --> 0:49:54.887
<v Speaker 2>is raw and uplifting in a way that we don't

0:49:54.927 --> 0:49:58.207
<v Speaker 2>hear people talking about divorce very often. As always, I

0:49:58.247 --> 0:50:00.247
<v Speaker 2>want to thank you all mids for being here with

0:50:00.327 --> 0:50:03.607
<v Speaker 2>us for these big conversations that we're having. Please jump

0:50:03.687 --> 0:50:06.647
<v Speaker 2>on and follow us on Instagram. DM me with any

0:50:06.727 --> 0:50:09.207
<v Speaker 2>ideas about the show. You'll find me on Instagram too

0:50:09.327 --> 0:50:12.007
<v Speaker 2>at Waynewright, Holly, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

0:50:12.167 --> 0:50:14.407
<v Speaker 2>Don't forget to give us a rating horror review. It

0:50:14.527 --> 0:50:17.687
<v Speaker 2>really helps other people find MID And of course I

0:50:17.727 --> 0:50:19.767
<v Speaker 2>want to offer a massive thank you to our team.

0:50:20.247 --> 0:50:23.007
<v Speaker 2>The MID team is executive producer. I am A. Brown,

0:50:23.367 --> 0:50:27.447
<v Speaker 2>Senior producer Grace Ruvre, and producer Charlie Blackman. And we've

0:50:27.487 --> 0:50:31.087
<v Speaker 2>had sound design and production by Jacob Brown. And I'm

0:50:31.127 --> 0:50:33.647
<v Speaker 2>your host, Holly Wainwright. And I'll see you back here

0:50:33.807 --> 0:50:35.447
<v Speaker 2>next week for more mid