1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:28,342 Speaker 1: recorded on It's March third, twenty twenty one, and Sarah 4 00:00:28,382 --> 00:00:31,022 Speaker 1: Everard has just left her friend's house in South London 5 00:00:31,382 --> 00:00:35,102 Speaker 1: after a Saturday evening spent laughing and catching up. It's 6 00:00:35,182 --> 00:00:38,582 Speaker 1: nine pm. She has a fifteen minute walk home to Brixton, 7 00:00:39,182 --> 00:00:41,662 Speaker 1: so to past the time she calls her boyfriend. They 8 00:00:41,742 --> 00:00:46,142 Speaker 1: chat until exactly nine twenty eight pm. On Pointers Road, 9 00:00:46,342 --> 00:00:49,862 Speaker 1: not far from Clapham Common, Sarah is captured walking past 10 00:00:49,902 --> 00:00:53,062 Speaker 1: on a door bell camera. She's wearing a green jacket, 11 00:00:53,502 --> 00:00:56,622 Speaker 1: fun navy and white checkered pants and a cream beanie. 12 00:00:56,822 --> 00:00:59,662 Speaker 1: It's the middle of COVID, so she's also wearing a mask. 13 00:01:00,342 --> 00:01:05,382 Speaker 1: It's the last time anyone sees her alive. By the 14 00:01:05,422 --> 00:01:08,542 Speaker 1: next morning, her friends are worried. She never texted them 15 00:01:08,542 --> 00:01:11,462 Speaker 1: to let them know she got home safe. Her boyfriend's 16 00:01:11,462 --> 00:01:14,822 Speaker 1: messages have been left unread. The thirty three year old 17 00:01:14,942 --> 00:01:19,422 Speaker 1: has vanished. A social media appeals spread and friends plaster 18 00:01:19,542 --> 00:01:23,742 Speaker 1: Clapham with posters. The police hunt begins, but as the 19 00:01:23,782 --> 00:01:26,422 Speaker 1: events of what happened to Sarah after she walks off 20 00:01:26,462 --> 00:01:30,822 Speaker 1: camera on pointers road start to become clear, England erupts 21 00:01:31,102 --> 00:01:35,142 Speaker 1: in an avalanche of anger. How did this happen? Why 22 00:01:35,142 --> 00:01:39,102 Speaker 1: did this happen? How can women ever possibly feel safe 23 00:01:39,182 --> 00:01:43,022 Speaker 1: going about their lives after something as horrifying as this? 24 00:01:52,222 --> 00:01:55,902 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations among 25 00:01:55,902 --> 00:01:59,102 Speaker 1: of Me, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 26 00:01:59,502 --> 00:02:02,022 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 27 00:02:02,742 --> 00:02:05,862 Speaker 1: A week after her disappearance, Sarah's body was found in 28 00:02:05,902 --> 00:02:09,902 Speaker 1: a stream in Kent, wrapped in a bag. She'd been 29 00:02:09,982 --> 00:02:13,742 Speaker 1: raped and murdered after being abducted off the street in 30 00:02:13,822 --> 00:02:18,542 Speaker 1: London South. But Sarah wasn't dragged away kicking and screaming. 31 00:02:19,342 --> 00:02:22,622 Speaker 1: She went willingly with her captor because he arrested her. 32 00:02:23,182 --> 00:02:25,662 Speaker 1: It wasn't like he was faking that either. He was 33 00:02:25,662 --> 00:02:29,102 Speaker 1: a police officer, a serving one. He had a badge. 34 00:02:29,422 --> 00:02:32,822 Speaker 1: She wouldn't have questioned it. It was this news that 35 00:02:32,982 --> 00:02:36,662 Speaker 1: sent the world into a tail spin. As Wain Cousin's 36 00:02:36,662 --> 00:02:40,582 Speaker 1: history became apparent, the anger multiplied. This was a case 37 00:02:40,742 --> 00:02:43,542 Speaker 1: that destroyed public trust in the very service they were 38 00:02:43,582 --> 00:02:46,702 Speaker 1: supposed to be able to call for help. It made people, 39 00:02:46,982 --> 00:02:51,142 Speaker 1: mainly women, feel furious. Sad too, of course, but angry, 40 00:02:51,502 --> 00:02:55,222 Speaker 1: so angry. For decades, women have been screaming for more 41 00:02:55,262 --> 00:02:57,742 Speaker 1: to be done to stop violence against women, and here 42 00:02:57,782 --> 00:03:00,422 Speaker 1: was a woman being killed by a cop, of all people, 43 00:03:00,902 --> 00:03:03,782 Speaker 1: a cop who didn't know her, an act of violent 44 00:03:03,982 --> 00:03:07,622 Speaker 1: stranger murder. To revisit this crime, the impact had had 45 00:03:07,622 --> 00:03:09,702 Speaker 1: on us and the changes that have been made since. 46 00:03:10,582 --> 00:03:13,662 Speaker 1: Joined by LBC journalist to Henry Riley, who covered this 47 00:03:13,782 --> 00:03:25,102 Speaker 1: case as it was unfolding in twenty twenty one, Henry. 48 00:03:25,302 --> 00:03:28,582 Speaker 1: Sarah left her friend's house in Clapham in London at 49 00:03:28,662 --> 00:03:31,062 Speaker 1: nine pm on a Saturday night with the intention of 50 00:03:31,142 --> 00:03:33,742 Speaker 1: walking the fifteen minutes or so back to her home 51 00:03:33,822 --> 00:03:37,982 Speaker 1: in Brixton. What is that walk like and that area like? 52 00:03:38,062 --> 00:03:40,742 Speaker 1: Is it remote? Are there lots of shops, lots of people? 53 00:03:41,342 --> 00:03:42,942 Speaker 2: Well, it's a very busy area. 54 00:03:43,102 --> 00:03:45,502 Speaker 3: I used to live in Clapham, which is where Sarah 55 00:03:45,582 --> 00:03:48,422 Speaker 3: Everard was leaving. She was going back to her home 56 00:03:48,902 --> 00:03:51,542 Speaker 3: in Brixton. As you say, it's not a long distance 57 00:03:51,702 --> 00:03:55,702 Speaker 3: between the two and you've got a big common area, 58 00:03:55,822 --> 00:03:58,782 Speaker 3: big green area where we know Sarah used to quite 59 00:03:58,782 --> 00:04:02,262 Speaker 3: often go running clearly she had friends in the area 60 00:04:02,382 --> 00:04:04,822 Speaker 3: as well, and it's a green area as far as 61 00:04:04,862 --> 00:04:07,982 Speaker 3: London goes, but it is very busy. Clapham is a 62 00:04:08,222 --> 00:04:12,382 Speaker 3: hugely busy area. It's very popular with younger people. The 63 00:04:12,422 --> 00:04:17,102 Speaker 3: demographic is between sort of twenty and thirty ordinarily, and 64 00:04:17,622 --> 00:04:19,782 Speaker 3: she'd have passed a lot of people even at that 65 00:04:19,862 --> 00:04:22,422 Speaker 3: time of nights, shortly after nine pm. There would have 66 00:04:22,462 --> 00:04:25,062 Speaker 3: been a lot of shops, a lot of residential houses 67 00:04:25,102 --> 00:04:26,062 Speaker 3: as well. 68 00:04:26,262 --> 00:04:30,502 Speaker 1: She was captured on quite a few cameras, CCTV, doorbell cameras. 69 00:04:31,062 --> 00:04:33,742 Speaker 1: Do we know what her last known location was on 70 00:04:33,782 --> 00:04:34,182 Speaker 1: the walk? 71 00:04:34,862 --> 00:04:38,502 Speaker 3: She was spotted on CCTV on the way to Brixton, 72 00:04:38,662 --> 00:04:41,102 Speaker 3: right by the car which we can get onto. 73 00:04:41,142 --> 00:04:42,342 Speaker 2: But we know that. 74 00:04:42,342 --> 00:04:47,102 Speaker 3: Wayne Cousins, her killer, had hired, and she was spotted 75 00:04:47,222 --> 00:04:50,742 Speaker 3: throughout her journey. Really, she was on the phone for 76 00:04:51,462 --> 00:04:54,142 Speaker 3: well about half of her thirty minute walk. She was 77 00:04:54,182 --> 00:04:57,822 Speaker 3: on the phone to her boyfriend Josh for around fourteen 78 00:04:57,902 --> 00:04:58,782 Speaker 3: fifteen minutes. 79 00:04:59,142 --> 00:05:00,862 Speaker 2: That was just after she'd left the house at. 80 00:05:00,902 --> 00:05:04,422 Speaker 3: Nine and then really from that point on from nine 81 00:05:04,462 --> 00:05:07,262 Speaker 3: to about nine p thirty, just after she was spotted 82 00:05:07,262 --> 00:05:11,182 Speaker 3: at various locations. As you say, not just door cameras, 83 00:05:11,222 --> 00:05:14,542 Speaker 3: but official CCTV cameras. London's one of the most surveyed 84 00:05:14,622 --> 00:05:17,942 Speaker 3: cities in the world, and so it's very difficult to 85 00:05:18,222 --> 00:05:21,422 Speaker 3: lose people in the capitol. There are a huge number 86 00:05:21,982 --> 00:05:24,342 Speaker 3: of cameras that are always rolling, that are always on. 87 00:05:24,982 --> 00:05:27,502 Speaker 3: And it was just shortly after nine point thirty that 88 00:05:27,622 --> 00:05:30,342 Speaker 3: evening when that was the last known sighting we had 89 00:05:30,342 --> 00:05:31,022 Speaker 3: of Sarah. 90 00:05:31,582 --> 00:05:35,222 Speaker 1: How quickly did her loved ones get worried or go 91 00:05:35,342 --> 00:05:37,462 Speaker 1: that next step of raising the alarm with police. 92 00:05:38,142 --> 00:05:40,502 Speaker 3: It took around twenty four hours for her to be 93 00:05:40,662 --> 00:05:46,062 Speaker 3: officially noted as missing. Josh her boyfriend notified police around 94 00:05:46,142 --> 00:05:49,862 Speaker 3: ten past to eight the day after, and so clearly 95 00:05:50,102 --> 00:05:53,142 Speaker 3: a significant amount of time had passed around twenty three hours. 96 00:05:53,782 --> 00:05:58,262 Speaker 3: But what we know is in these situations, sadly were 97 00:05:58,302 --> 00:06:00,662 Speaker 3: in COVID and so a lot of people were struggling, 98 00:06:00,902 --> 00:06:04,022 Speaker 3: and there was a sense that maybe Sarah had taken 99 00:06:04,062 --> 00:06:07,222 Speaker 3: herself off, she needed perhaps a few days to have 100 00:06:07,342 --> 00:06:10,942 Speaker 3: to herself, Perhaps her boyfriend was perhaps giving her some space, 101 00:06:11,022 --> 00:06:15,862 Speaker 3: maybe her family likewise, clearly they had absolutely no idea, 102 00:06:15,942 --> 00:06:19,222 Speaker 3: and had they, they would have reported her missing far sooner. 103 00:06:19,942 --> 00:06:24,382 Speaker 3: But it did take a significant amount of time, whereby 104 00:06:24,782 --> 00:06:29,462 Speaker 3: they ended up reporting Sarah as missing, clearly though her 105 00:06:29,582 --> 00:06:32,422 Speaker 3: friends had been worried up until that point. The social 106 00:06:32,462 --> 00:06:36,502 Speaker 3: media post started a few hours before that when friends 107 00:06:36,502 --> 00:06:39,862 Speaker 3: had realized she was missing, when presumably Josh as well 108 00:06:39,902 --> 00:06:42,862 Speaker 3: as her family had told friends and family that they 109 00:06:42,942 --> 00:06:45,782 Speaker 3: hadn't seen her, that they were worried about her, And 110 00:06:45,822 --> 00:06:49,142 Speaker 3: then from that point on it became a full scale 111 00:06:49,222 --> 00:06:53,622 Speaker 3: media operation, with people desperately putting out notices to try 112 00:06:53,662 --> 00:06:56,942 Speaker 3: and track down exactly where she was and work out 113 00:06:56,982 --> 00:06:57,982 Speaker 3: exactly what had happened. 114 00:06:58,822 --> 00:07:01,622 Speaker 1: Can you give us a bit more context on Sarah 115 00:07:01,662 --> 00:07:04,102 Speaker 1: and who she was? We know she was a thirty 116 00:07:04,142 --> 00:07:05,942 Speaker 1: three year old woman. You've mentioned that she had a 117 00:07:05,942 --> 00:07:08,782 Speaker 1: boyfriend who she was chatting to. What else do we 118 00:07:08,822 --> 00:07:10,862 Speaker 1: know about her? Where did she work? What kind of 119 00:07:10,862 --> 00:07:12,462 Speaker 1: person was she? 120 00:07:12,462 --> 00:07:16,302 Speaker 3: She was a very successful person. She was exactly the 121 00:07:16,342 --> 00:07:20,462 Speaker 3: sort of young professional who had overachieved. She'd moved to London. 122 00:07:20,542 --> 00:07:23,582 Speaker 3: She didn't grow up in London. She grew up in York, 123 00:07:23,742 --> 00:07:27,102 Speaker 3: which is in the north of England. She was described 124 00:07:27,102 --> 00:07:29,422 Speaker 3: at schools being popular as being well liked. 125 00:07:30,062 --> 00:07:31,382 Speaker 2: We know she was thirty three. 126 00:07:31,582 --> 00:07:34,622 Speaker 3: She was excelling at her job she'd just started a 127 00:07:34,742 --> 00:07:39,902 Speaker 3: month before at a media pr company. She'd worked for 128 00:07:40,022 --> 00:07:45,622 Speaker 3: several similar companies media and pr agencies before that. She 129 00:07:45,742 --> 00:07:48,622 Speaker 3: went to a very prestigious university. She went to Durham 130 00:07:48,662 --> 00:07:52,702 Speaker 3: which is definitely in the top five of British universities. 131 00:07:52,822 --> 00:07:57,142 Speaker 3: She studied human geography and had chosen, as I mentioned, 132 00:07:57,382 --> 00:07:59,982 Speaker 3: to move to an area of London which is full 133 00:08:00,022 --> 00:08:03,782 Speaker 3: of young people, young women in particular in their twenties 134 00:08:03,822 --> 00:08:06,942 Speaker 3: and in their thirties, living in Brixton, living in the 135 00:08:06,982 --> 00:08:12,102 Speaker 3: South London area, clearly enjoying her life, seeing friends whereby 136 00:08:12,662 --> 00:08:16,062 Speaker 3: she went that night where she was abducted. She was 137 00:08:16,662 --> 00:08:20,062 Speaker 3: running a Clapham Common, which is a very popular area 138 00:08:20,102 --> 00:08:23,262 Speaker 3: of London, that sort of green area, slap bang in 139 00:08:23,302 --> 00:08:25,622 Speaker 3: the middle of South London where there are running clubs 140 00:08:25,662 --> 00:08:28,662 Speaker 3: and there are tennis courts and it's a nice leafy area. 141 00:08:28,742 --> 00:08:31,222 Speaker 3: It's not a cheap area. And so she was clearly 142 00:08:31,782 --> 00:08:34,542 Speaker 3: earning good money in her job, in her successful career 143 00:08:35,262 --> 00:08:40,302 Speaker 3: and was described as just being extremely popular and well liked, 144 00:08:40,342 --> 00:08:42,502 Speaker 3: not just as school but then in the jobs she 145 00:08:42,582 --> 00:08:43,182 Speaker 3: went on to do. 146 00:08:44,302 --> 00:08:48,342 Speaker 1: Let's bring in the timeline of Wayne Cousins. What do 147 00:08:48,382 --> 00:08:51,662 Speaker 1: we know about his movements on that Saturday afternoon. 148 00:08:52,302 --> 00:08:55,382 Speaker 3: Well, it's important to set out as well, this is 149 00:08:55,422 --> 00:08:59,422 Speaker 3: a man who had served with the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, 150 00:08:59,462 --> 00:09:04,062 Speaker 3: which is sort of as the name suggests, very high power, 151 00:09:04,222 --> 00:09:07,262 Speaker 3: high tech influence within policing. He then moved to the 152 00:09:07,302 --> 00:09:13,862 Speaker 3: Met Police and on that day his movements were peculiar. 153 00:09:13,942 --> 00:09:17,942 Speaker 3: Now with the benefit of hindsight and the benefit of context, 154 00:09:18,182 --> 00:09:20,422 Speaker 3: I mean, this wasn't his first offense. As well, It's 155 00:09:20,422 --> 00:09:22,622 Speaker 3: important to note the month before he was done for 156 00:09:22,702 --> 00:09:26,062 Speaker 3: two and indeed has been charged now and sentenced for 157 00:09:26,182 --> 00:09:31,502 Speaker 3: two counts of indecent exposure. Actually just weeks before this 158 00:09:31,542 --> 00:09:35,782 Speaker 3: took place, so we know Wayne Cousins hired this car. 159 00:09:35,982 --> 00:09:38,782 Speaker 2: It was a white Voxhaastra. He used a. 160 00:09:39,022 --> 00:09:42,782 Speaker 3: Car hire firm as normal, used his personal details, his 161 00:09:42,862 --> 00:09:47,222 Speaker 3: bank card, so clearly wasn't hiding anything at that particular point. 162 00:09:47,342 --> 00:09:49,662 Speaker 3: We then know he bought some other products from Amazon 163 00:09:49,702 --> 00:09:55,902 Speaker 3: and from various shops, for example adhesive film and unusual 164 00:09:55,982 --> 00:09:59,622 Speaker 3: things to buy. The day before, he'd had a regular 165 00:09:59,662 --> 00:10:01,742 Speaker 3: please shift. He was on for twelve hours, which is 166 00:10:01,862 --> 00:10:05,022 Speaker 3: not uncommon if you're a serving officer in the Met Police. 167 00:10:05,022 --> 00:10:07,462 Speaker 3: He was working in an area of West London, which 168 00:10:07,502 --> 00:10:12,862 Speaker 3: again not very far from where Sarah was visiting her friends. 169 00:10:13,182 --> 00:10:16,582 Speaker 2: And it was at four point forty. 170 00:10:16,142 --> 00:10:21,462 Speaker 3: Five that day that mister Cousins collected his car. Then, 171 00:10:21,542 --> 00:10:24,902 Speaker 3: of course we know that he abducted Sarah at nine thirty, 172 00:10:25,022 --> 00:10:26,262 Speaker 3: so there was not long. 173 00:10:26,102 --> 00:10:26,902 Speaker 2: In it at all. 174 00:10:26,942 --> 00:10:29,942 Speaker 3: Indeed, if you read the judgment, it doesn't seem like 175 00:10:30,542 --> 00:10:35,262 Speaker 3: Sarah was targeted for any particular reason other than for 176 00:10:35,302 --> 00:10:38,222 Speaker 3: the appalling sort of reality that she was in the 177 00:10:38,222 --> 00:10:40,502 Speaker 3: wrong place at the wrong time, and Wayne Cousins was 178 00:10:40,542 --> 00:10:45,182 Speaker 3: intent on finding a victim, whoever that victim would be. 179 00:10:46,222 --> 00:10:49,062 Speaker 3: And then on that day it was a pretty quiet 180 00:10:49,102 --> 00:10:52,022 Speaker 3: day for him really with his higher car until in 181 00:10:52,062 --> 00:10:57,982 Speaker 3: the evening when he committed this atrocious act, which we'll. 182 00:10:57,822 --> 00:10:59,382 Speaker 1: Get to in a sec But I kind of want 183 00:10:59,422 --> 00:11:03,342 Speaker 1: to interrogate his career a little bit more because you 184 00:11:03,382 --> 00:11:06,582 Speaker 1: mentioned he was a serving Metropolitan Police officer, but I 185 00:11:06,622 --> 00:11:09,742 Speaker 1: have seen a little bit of talk or some officers 186 00:11:09,782 --> 00:11:12,142 Speaker 1: trying to say that he wasn't a real police officer. 187 00:11:12,782 --> 00:11:14,942 Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit what does a serving 188 00:11:14,942 --> 00:11:16,422 Speaker 1: Metropolitan Police officer mean? 189 00:11:17,142 --> 00:11:20,662 Speaker 3: Well, it's the largest police force in the UK, it's 190 00:11:20,782 --> 00:11:23,822 Speaker 3: not only one of the most famous, it's very under 191 00:11:23,862 --> 00:11:27,462 Speaker 3: fire in the sense that it's a constant source of scrutiny. 192 00:11:27,662 --> 00:11:32,382 Speaker 3: The Metropolitan Police deals with the counter terrorism for the 193 00:11:32,382 --> 00:11:34,062 Speaker 3: whole of the UK as well. So just to give 194 00:11:34,062 --> 00:11:36,542 Speaker 3: you a flavor, this is not an ordinary police force. 195 00:11:37,022 --> 00:11:43,302 Speaker 3: This is a very prestigious organization, a huge organization. And 196 00:11:43,822 --> 00:11:47,542 Speaker 3: when Cousins had a policing background, he was as I say, 197 00:11:47,542 --> 00:11:50,822 Speaker 3: at the Civil Nuclear Constabulary for a year or so, 198 00:11:50,942 --> 00:11:55,422 Speaker 3: that is sort of a specialist law enforcement security force 199 00:11:55,502 --> 00:11:59,302 Speaker 3: whereby they do look at firearms officers and they look 200 00:11:59,502 --> 00:12:01,062 Speaker 3: I mean this was a man who was carrying a 201 00:12:01,102 --> 00:12:03,702 Speaker 3: firearm as well, which we'll get onto. But he then 202 00:12:03,742 --> 00:12:07,062 Speaker 3: worked for Kent Police as a special constable. He worked 203 00:12:07,062 --> 00:12:10,342 Speaker 3: for the METS, where he had a firearm and were 204 00:12:10,462 --> 00:12:14,462 Speaker 3: looked for the parliamentary and diplomatic protection i e. He 205 00:12:14,622 --> 00:12:17,182 Speaker 3: was one of the officers trusted to be sort of 206 00:12:17,222 --> 00:12:21,182 Speaker 3: outside embassies, to be outside parliament. There was a sense 207 00:12:21,262 --> 00:12:26,262 Speaker 3: from some of his colleagues that he enjoyed carrying a 208 00:12:26,302 --> 00:12:30,382 Speaker 3: firearm and perhaps that came above and beyond actually being 209 00:12:30,422 --> 00:12:33,782 Speaker 3: a police officer. And so I wouldn't say the alarm 210 00:12:33,822 --> 00:12:36,822 Speaker 3: bells were necessarily raised at that point, but there was 211 00:12:36,862 --> 00:12:40,262 Speaker 3: certainly chatter from what we know now in terms of 212 00:12:40,342 --> 00:12:44,222 Speaker 3: people saying that he perhaps wasn't best suited to the job. 213 00:12:44,302 --> 00:12:48,302 Speaker 3: And then it's emerged subsequently that his sort of vetting 214 00:12:48,422 --> 00:12:51,982 Speaker 3: wasn't up to standards. He hadn't undergone the enhanced vetting, 215 00:12:52,022 --> 00:12:54,942 Speaker 3: which would seem peculiar given that he was guarding some 216 00:12:54,982 --> 00:12:58,822 Speaker 3: of the most famous, some of the most well protected 217 00:12:58,862 --> 00:13:02,742 Speaker 3: areas of the UK, like Parliament, like embassies, and was 218 00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:06,182 Speaker 3: carrying a firearm and yet seemingly didn't go through all 219 00:13:06,182 --> 00:13:07,222 Speaker 3: the necessary checks. 220 00:13:08,222 --> 00:13:12,022 Speaker 1: And what about those allegations of India exposure you mentioned, 221 00:13:12,062 --> 00:13:17,262 Speaker 1: because these happened before Sarah's murder, Why wasn't he prosecuted 222 00:13:17,462 --> 00:13:20,462 Speaker 1: for those or charged or arrested? Was he even questioned? 223 00:13:21,022 --> 00:13:25,222 Speaker 3: No, he wasn't. This happened both times. He lived in Kent, 224 00:13:25,302 --> 00:13:28,262 Speaker 3: so he lived just outside of London. But it happened 225 00:13:28,302 --> 00:13:33,062 Speaker 3: at McDonald's drive through where he is accused and indeed 226 00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:37,902 Speaker 3: has been charged with flashing himself to members of staff 227 00:13:38,222 --> 00:13:42,982 Speaker 3: some very grim stories really at exposing himself. And it 228 00:13:43,062 --> 00:13:47,422 Speaker 3: was actually a cyclist who went past and eventually spotted 229 00:13:47,862 --> 00:13:49,662 Speaker 3: him on one of the occasions and proved to be 230 00:13:49,702 --> 00:13:54,542 Speaker 3: a witness. Then he was charged around a year or 231 00:13:54,582 --> 00:13:58,502 Speaker 3: so later with indecent exposure. The sheer number of counts 232 00:13:58,582 --> 00:14:02,622 Speaker 3: is incredible. So he's pleaded guilty to three incidents of 233 00:14:02,662 --> 00:14:07,702 Speaker 3: it between twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. He then 234 00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:11,782 Speaker 3: was accused later on, and so he's already serving a 235 00:14:11,822 --> 00:14:13,982 Speaker 3: life term, But he did indeed get a few months 236 00:14:14,422 --> 00:14:16,982 Speaker 3: on top of that as well. He got nineteen months 237 00:14:17,022 --> 00:14:21,302 Speaker 3: added to his sentence. But these incidents that happened outside 238 00:14:21,542 --> 00:14:26,662 Speaker 3: a fast food takeaway would seem to have irritated and 239 00:14:27,022 --> 00:14:30,342 Speaker 3: distressed people. But given that this man was a serving 240 00:14:30,382 --> 00:14:34,102 Speaker 3: police officer as well, it seemed extraordinary that you can 241 00:14:34,182 --> 00:14:37,462 Speaker 3: have someone who not only did this but seemed to 242 00:14:37,462 --> 00:14:39,822 Speaker 3: get away with it, seemed to get away scott free, 243 00:14:39,982 --> 00:14:45,222 Speaker 3: consequence free, and should have acted clearly as a warning sign. 244 00:14:46,022 --> 00:14:48,102 Speaker 1: What do we know about his home life? Did he 245 00:14:48,182 --> 00:14:49,862 Speaker 1: have a family, was he living alone? 246 00:14:50,262 --> 00:14:51,622 Speaker 2: He was married, he had kids. 247 00:14:51,702 --> 00:14:56,182 Speaker 3: He was married to Ukrainian woman Helena, and she was 248 00:14:56,222 --> 00:14:59,662 Speaker 3: initially arrested. She was released in the end, and as 249 00:14:59,662 --> 00:15:01,862 Speaker 3: far as we know, it's been reported in the last 250 00:15:01,902 --> 00:15:05,302 Speaker 3: few weeks, is still living at the home in Kent. 251 00:15:05,462 --> 00:15:09,862 Speaker 3: She's kept the cousin's surname and was there when he 252 00:15:09,942 --> 00:15:12,142 Speaker 3: was given the that whole life order, and indeed has 253 00:15:12,142 --> 00:15:16,262 Speaker 3: watched on various hearings on a video link since then. 254 00:15:16,622 --> 00:15:18,782 Speaker 3: And they were married from what I recall, for about 255 00:15:18,782 --> 00:15:22,822 Speaker 3: fifteen years. The day before, they'd been out as a family. 256 00:15:23,222 --> 00:15:26,782 Speaker 3: He indeed, in that period between the heenus act he 257 00:15:26,862 --> 00:15:32,102 Speaker 3: committed and the discovery of human remains, he had taken 258 00:15:32,142 --> 00:15:36,142 Speaker 3: them out to the same green, the wife and children 259 00:15:36,222 --> 00:15:38,862 Speaker 3: to the same area. Where as I'm sure we'll get 260 00:15:38,862 --> 00:15:41,742 Speaker 3: onto the sort of horrific act took place, and so 261 00:15:42,662 --> 00:15:45,382 Speaker 3: from a family life, certainly, as far as if you 262 00:15:45,702 --> 00:15:48,862 Speaker 3: are to believe his wife, there were no telltale signs. 263 00:15:49,062 --> 00:15:52,862 Speaker 3: She was very happy, it would seem in the relationship initially, 264 00:15:53,502 --> 00:15:56,222 Speaker 3: and there was no suggestion that he was ever abusive 265 00:15:56,262 --> 00:15:59,582 Speaker 3: to her or had acted in a way that would 266 00:15:59,782 --> 00:16:01,222 Speaker 3: arouse any suspicion. 267 00:16:01,862 --> 00:16:03,822 Speaker 1: Gosh, it makes it even more chilling, doesn't it that 268 00:16:04,022 --> 00:16:06,622 Speaker 1: he had this facade and family and job to kind 269 00:16:06,662 --> 00:16:11,582 Speaker 1: of hide behind. Let's get back to that Saturday. How 270 00:16:11,622 --> 00:16:14,542 Speaker 1: does Wayne approach Sarah? We know that he's a cop. 271 00:16:14,782 --> 00:16:17,542 Speaker 1: Does he approach her in that way. Does he tell 272 00:16:17,582 --> 00:16:18,662 Speaker 1: her he's a police officer. 273 00:16:19,142 --> 00:16:19,582 Speaker 2: He does. 274 00:16:19,942 --> 00:16:23,782 Speaker 3: And the reason this is so murky and so tricky 275 00:16:24,342 --> 00:16:28,622 Speaker 3: is because he was, as most police officers were at 276 00:16:28,622 --> 00:16:31,662 Speaker 3: that time, involved with the policing of coronavirus restrictions and 277 00:16:31,742 --> 00:16:36,102 Speaker 3: so large gatherings in the UK were often dispersed, often 278 00:16:36,142 --> 00:16:40,942 Speaker 3: broken up. People were on edge, and you weren't allowed 279 00:16:40,982 --> 00:16:43,582 Speaker 3: to go around people's houses. Of course, not just in 280 00:16:43,582 --> 00:16:46,342 Speaker 3: the UK but across the world, but in various parts 281 00:16:46,382 --> 00:16:48,582 Speaker 3: of London and indeed various parts of the UK. I 282 00:16:48,622 --> 00:16:52,142 Speaker 3: think police officers interpreted the law in their own way 283 00:16:52,182 --> 00:16:54,142 Speaker 3: to some extent, and they could be as strict on 284 00:16:54,222 --> 00:16:57,582 Speaker 3: it as they would have liked. And from what we know, 285 00:16:58,062 --> 00:17:02,022 Speaker 3: wayn Cousins stop Sarah Everard said that he was going 286 00:17:02,022 --> 00:17:07,062 Speaker 3: to arrest her for suspected breach of coronavirus legislation. 287 00:17:07,742 --> 00:17:11,422 Speaker 2: It was her then, who I think questioned. 288 00:17:11,622 --> 00:17:14,542 Speaker 3: And when you're approached by a police officer, there's only 289 00:17:14,582 --> 00:17:16,742 Speaker 3: so much questioning you can do, given that there is 290 00:17:16,742 --> 00:17:19,462 Speaker 3: a degree of trust, a huge degree of trust that 291 00:17:19,542 --> 00:17:22,942 Speaker 3: you have to actually put into this relationship and that 292 00:17:22,942 --> 00:17:25,422 Speaker 3: you have to invest in. And so I would imagine 293 00:17:25,422 --> 00:17:29,422 Speaker 3: she obviously went along with it, and therefore was adhering 294 00:17:29,462 --> 00:17:31,382 Speaker 3: to what this police officer was saying, even if she 295 00:17:31,462 --> 00:17:36,182 Speaker 3: thought he was totally misguided. And so he arrested Sarah 296 00:17:36,262 --> 00:17:40,542 Speaker 3: under the Coronavirus Act. He flashed his warrant card to prove. 297 00:17:40,342 --> 00:17:41,382 Speaker 2: He was a police officer. 298 00:17:41,422 --> 00:17:45,822 Speaker 3: And so from that point Sarah had no real reason 299 00:17:45,902 --> 00:17:48,542 Speaker 3: to question that there would be anything in particular that 300 00:17:49,262 --> 00:17:50,662 Speaker 3: could go so horribly wrong. 301 00:17:51,382 --> 00:17:55,702 Speaker 1: Did anyone witness this? Did anyone see her being sake arrested? 302 00:17:56,382 --> 00:17:58,142 Speaker 2: Not that have come forwards. 303 00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:02,862 Speaker 3: No other than those sightings on CCTV, there were eyewitnesses 304 00:18:02,902 --> 00:18:06,222 Speaker 3: afterwards who claims that they sort of saw an altercation 305 00:18:06,502 --> 00:18:10,062 Speaker 3: but didn't think much of it. And London such a 306 00:18:10,142 --> 00:18:13,142 Speaker 3: huge and there's not just a lot of crime that's committed, 307 00:18:13,182 --> 00:18:15,262 Speaker 3: but there are various incidents that of course. 308 00:18:15,062 --> 00:18:16,702 Speaker 2: Aren't reported to police. 309 00:18:16,782 --> 00:18:20,982 Speaker 3: It's not unusual to see altercations, and unfortunately for people 310 00:18:21,022 --> 00:18:24,742 Speaker 3: to walk on or to turn a blind eye, not 311 00:18:24,822 --> 00:18:28,782 Speaker 3: through any malice, but really just that they've become used 312 00:18:28,822 --> 00:18:28,982 Speaker 3: to it. 313 00:18:30,022 --> 00:18:35,182 Speaker 1: So cousins fake arrest Sarah. He puts her in his car. Henry, 314 00:18:35,182 --> 00:18:36,102 Speaker 1: what does he do to her? 315 00:18:36,942 --> 00:18:40,982 Speaker 2: This is very distressing. He puts her in his car. 316 00:18:41,742 --> 00:18:45,022 Speaker 3: Quite what he did after that when not entirely sure, 317 00:18:45,102 --> 00:18:48,262 Speaker 3: we know that it's expected he used his police belt 318 00:18:48,862 --> 00:18:53,302 Speaker 3: to strangle Sarah. And then after that point he was 319 00:18:53,542 --> 00:18:58,542 Speaker 3: driving back from South London where he abducted Sarah, it 320 00:18:58,542 --> 00:19:02,462 Speaker 3: would seem killed her on the journey, and then stopped 321 00:19:02,502 --> 00:19:06,262 Speaker 3: off in Kent at the petrol station for example, and 322 00:19:06,742 --> 00:19:09,542 Speaker 3: went on home to his area of Kent, which is 323 00:19:09,622 --> 00:19:10,742 Speaker 3: just outside of London. 324 00:19:11,462 --> 00:19:13,702 Speaker 1: And he also sexually assaulted her, didn't he. 325 00:19:14,062 --> 00:19:17,982 Speaker 3: Yes, he raped Sarah and burnt her body after that 326 00:19:18,222 --> 00:19:21,662 Speaker 3: and disposed of her remains in a pond nearby his 327 00:19:21,742 --> 00:19:24,662 Speaker 3: house in Kent. So yeah, two things were that he 328 00:19:24,782 --> 00:19:28,342 Speaker 3: raped and strangled Sarah, who was initially in the back 329 00:19:28,382 --> 00:19:30,462 Speaker 3: of his car, which was not a police car. It 330 00:19:30,542 --> 00:19:32,942 Speaker 3: was that higher car. As we say, he had that 331 00:19:32,982 --> 00:19:33,582 Speaker 3: warrant card. 332 00:19:34,302 --> 00:19:38,382 Speaker 1: It's such a horrendous crime. He wasn't due back at 333 00:19:38,422 --> 00:19:40,902 Speaker 1: work for a little while. He wasn't due back until 334 00:19:41,022 --> 00:19:43,382 Speaker 1: the eighth or so, but he did make contact with 335 00:19:43,422 --> 00:19:46,662 Speaker 1: his workplace in the following days. He'd reported that he 336 00:19:46,702 --> 00:19:49,222 Speaker 1: was stressed and that he didn't want to carry a 337 00:19:49,262 --> 00:19:52,302 Speaker 1: firearm anymore. You'd think he'd want to lay low, but 338 00:19:52,382 --> 00:19:55,102 Speaker 1: it seems like he was putting out clues from the 339 00:19:55,222 --> 00:19:55,782 Speaker 1: very start. 340 00:19:56,782 --> 00:19:59,742 Speaker 3: It would definitely seem that he was confident and was 341 00:20:00,062 --> 00:20:01,702 Speaker 3: drip feeding this information out there. 342 00:20:01,782 --> 00:20:04,622 Speaker 2: Jemmy, you're right. He was off work for some time. 343 00:20:04,902 --> 00:20:07,742 Speaker 3: He said to his work as I understand it, he 344 00:20:07,822 --> 00:20:11,782 Speaker 3: was struggling, and that he had mental health difficulties and stress. 345 00:20:11,822 --> 00:20:16,462 Speaker 3: And as we alluded to earlier, employees and particularly public 346 00:20:16,502 --> 00:20:19,542 Speaker 3: servants like Wayne Cousins, would be believed because they were 347 00:20:19,542 --> 00:20:21,622 Speaker 3: on the front line every day. Police officers and many 348 00:20:21,662 --> 00:20:24,782 Speaker 3: police officers went through a tough time and so given 349 00:20:24,822 --> 00:20:28,262 Speaker 3: the strain and stress of COVID, his workplace were what 350 00:20:28,302 --> 00:20:32,822 Speaker 3: would seem understandably accommodating because they thought that clearly something 351 00:20:32,862 --> 00:20:37,582 Speaker 3: was wrong at home. He then reported that obviously a 352 00:20:37,622 --> 00:20:39,702 Speaker 3: few days after the incident, he was not due back 353 00:20:39,742 --> 00:20:43,902 Speaker 3: at work, so Sarah went missing on the third of March. 354 00:20:44,582 --> 00:20:46,982 Speaker 3: It was on the sixth of March that Wayne Cousins 355 00:20:47,022 --> 00:20:50,542 Speaker 3: emailed his sergeant, his superior and said that he no 356 00:20:50,622 --> 00:20:54,102 Speaker 3: longer wanted to carry a firearm. Two days after that, 357 00:20:54,182 --> 00:20:56,502 Speaker 3: on the eighth of March, he was due to come 358 00:20:56,582 --> 00:20:58,902 Speaker 3: back to work, and that was the day after a 359 00:20:58,942 --> 00:21:01,222 Speaker 3: bit of time off for struggling with stress. As he 360 00:21:01,262 --> 00:21:04,622 Speaker 3: put it, he was due back in and he called 361 00:21:04,662 --> 00:21:08,342 Speaker 3: in sick and did not return to work. And then 362 00:21:08,542 --> 00:21:10,982 Speaker 3: it took just a day after that for the force 363 00:21:11,062 --> 00:21:14,502 Speaker 3: to work out something was clearly wrong and he was 364 00:21:14,662 --> 00:21:17,182 Speaker 3: arrested the next day. 365 00:21:20,422 --> 00:21:23,982 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimmy buff 366 00:21:24,542 --> 00:21:28,062 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with LBC journalist Henry Riley about the murder 367 00:21:28,062 --> 00:21:38,662 Speaker 1: of Sarah Everard. How did they work out it was 368 00:21:38,742 --> 00:21:40,422 Speaker 1: him or how did he become a suspect? 369 00:21:40,902 --> 00:21:44,342 Speaker 3: It was tricky because his behavior firstly did certainly point 370 00:21:44,382 --> 00:21:48,302 Speaker 3: to the fact that something was odds. He was then 371 00:21:48,382 --> 00:21:53,022 Speaker 3: discovered on CCTV in the various places where they could 372 00:21:53,142 --> 00:21:57,262 Speaker 3: track Sarah and where it happened. When they confronted Wayne Cousins, 373 00:21:57,302 --> 00:22:02,222 Speaker 3: he was not particularly forthcoming. He set out some elaborate 374 00:22:02,302 --> 00:22:05,542 Speaker 3: details of For example, he claimed at one point that 375 00:22:05,822 --> 00:22:07,982 Speaker 3: a gang were after him and that he was only 376 00:22:08,022 --> 00:22:10,902 Speaker 3: doing this because he was being black men by a 377 00:22:10,902 --> 00:22:13,502 Speaker 3: criminal gang, and that I think he said they were 378 00:22:13,502 --> 00:22:16,022 Speaker 3: Eastern European actually, and that he was being told he 379 00:22:16,062 --> 00:22:19,982 Speaker 3: had to deliver a girl because he'd underpaid a prostitute 380 00:22:20,022 --> 00:22:22,782 Speaker 3: all of this complete fantasy. Of course, he was not 381 00:22:22,862 --> 00:22:26,382 Speaker 3: only lying to the police, but then also informed them 382 00:22:26,382 --> 00:22:29,742 Speaker 3: that Sarah Everard was actually alive and well and said 383 00:22:29,742 --> 00:22:32,622 Speaker 3: that he admitted that he had abducted her, but said 384 00:22:32,662 --> 00:22:34,982 Speaker 3: that he'd handed her over to this gang and that 385 00:22:35,022 --> 00:22:38,342 Speaker 3: he regretted it. And then of course that turned out 386 00:22:38,422 --> 00:22:40,622 Speaker 3: to be quite clearly not the case. 387 00:22:41,462 --> 00:22:43,662 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, her body was found on the tenth, so 388 00:22:43,702 --> 00:22:46,822 Speaker 1: you know, a few days after his arrest. How did 389 00:22:46,822 --> 00:22:48,622 Speaker 1: they find her? What led them to her body? 390 00:22:49,582 --> 00:22:52,702 Speaker 3: Well, so they were onto Wayne Cousins fairly early, and 391 00:22:52,742 --> 00:22:55,542 Speaker 3: they'd had this police interview, but it was on the 392 00:22:55,622 --> 00:22:59,302 Speaker 3: morning of the tenth where they did start searching those 393 00:22:59,422 --> 00:23:03,542 Speaker 3: various locations. So it was in Dealing, Kent, which is 394 00:23:03,622 --> 00:23:07,582 Speaker 3: really not far from where Wayne Cousins lived. They were 395 00:23:07,622 --> 00:23:11,862 Speaker 3: searching not only that particular property, but also searching the 396 00:23:11,902 --> 00:23:15,382 Speaker 3: woodland area, and so they were monitoring what was happening 397 00:23:15,382 --> 00:23:18,902 Speaker 3: at that house as well. Wayne Cousins had already been 398 00:23:18,982 --> 00:23:20,902 Speaker 3: arrested by this point, so he was arrested the day 399 00:23:20,942 --> 00:23:25,022 Speaker 3: before on the ninth of March. His house was then raided. 400 00:23:25,102 --> 00:23:29,342 Speaker 3: As I say, that particular woodland area, including a pond 401 00:23:30,022 --> 00:23:33,742 Speaker 3: was also raided and was also searched, and of course 402 00:23:34,022 --> 00:23:36,542 Speaker 3: the area where Sarah went missing was still being searched 403 00:23:36,542 --> 00:23:40,022 Speaker 3: as well. Because authorities were not aware where Sarah's body was, 404 00:23:40,062 --> 00:23:42,342 Speaker 3: they didn't know what had happened, even if Wayne Cousins 405 00:23:42,382 --> 00:23:42,862 Speaker 3: had done it. 406 00:23:42,902 --> 00:23:45,862 Speaker 2: They thought at this point they were looking in South. 407 00:23:45,622 --> 00:23:48,502 Speaker 3: London and also looking in Kent, and both of the 408 00:23:48,582 --> 00:23:50,062 Speaker 3: areas were searched by police. 409 00:23:51,422 --> 00:23:56,422 Speaker 1: Once Wayne was officially charged, Sarah's body has been found, 410 00:23:56,702 --> 00:24:00,782 Speaker 1: the truth of what happened to her is revealed. Henry, 411 00:24:00,982 --> 00:24:03,662 Speaker 1: how did England react all? Quite frankly, how did the 412 00:24:03,702 --> 00:24:05,302 Speaker 1: world react to this story? 413 00:24:06,582 --> 00:24:10,582 Speaker 3: It definitely proved to be a huge shift and for 414 00:24:10,702 --> 00:24:14,262 Speaker 3: some time, for a few days, it took the media 415 00:24:14,342 --> 00:24:16,302 Speaker 3: a few days to really catch up as to what 416 00:24:16,342 --> 00:24:21,102 Speaker 3: had happened, because, unfortunately, as I mentioned, the Met Police 417 00:24:21,142 --> 00:24:24,902 Speaker 3: are an extremely busy police force. They are constantly dealing 418 00:24:24,982 --> 00:24:29,862 Speaker 3: with heenous crimes and people going missing and eventually being found. 419 00:24:30,062 --> 00:24:33,422 Speaker 3: And I think it only really dawned on the fact 420 00:24:33,502 --> 00:24:38,102 Speaker 3: that everything in this case was horrific, not just what 421 00:24:38,182 --> 00:24:41,582 Speaker 3: physically happened to Sarah with regards to the rape and 422 00:24:41,582 --> 00:24:45,462 Speaker 3: and the way he clearly strangled her, the fact that 423 00:24:45,502 --> 00:24:48,542 Speaker 3: he was a serving officer, the fact that there was 424 00:24:48,902 --> 00:24:53,342 Speaker 3: skepticism with police and that people were questioning how the 425 00:24:53,382 --> 00:24:58,222 Speaker 3: police really handled violence against women and girls before that point. 426 00:24:58,502 --> 00:25:02,502 Speaker 3: Then it to be proven that this man used his 427 00:25:02,702 --> 00:25:06,462 Speaker 3: warrant cards to trick to deceive someone who was so 428 00:25:06,582 --> 00:25:11,142 Speaker 3: vulnerable coming home at night. It all really made up 429 00:25:11,182 --> 00:25:15,022 Speaker 3: a quite hideous perfect storm where people could see this 430 00:25:15,102 --> 00:25:17,942 Speaker 3: happening to them, and I think Sarah was obviously a 431 00:25:18,022 --> 00:25:22,182 Speaker 3: very successful woman but was no different from everyone else. 432 00:25:22,342 --> 00:25:25,342 Speaker 3: Was walking home as many young people do, as many 433 00:25:25,422 --> 00:25:29,222 Speaker 3: young women do in South London, from Clapham to Brixton. 434 00:25:29,262 --> 00:25:33,102 Speaker 3: It's a walk that people do after nights out. It's 435 00:25:33,142 --> 00:25:35,742 Speaker 3: a walk that people do after they see friends and family, 436 00:25:35,822 --> 00:25:37,942 Speaker 3: after they go to work events. 437 00:25:38,022 --> 00:25:39,622 Speaker 2: It was so ordinary. 438 00:25:40,102 --> 00:25:43,382 Speaker 3: Sarah was doing what any regular person would do, obviously 439 00:25:43,462 --> 00:25:45,422 Speaker 3: enjoying her life and going out and seeing friends and 440 00:25:45,502 --> 00:25:48,182 Speaker 3: just simply walking home. And the fact that something like 441 00:25:48,222 --> 00:25:51,222 Speaker 3: this could happen be as graphic as it was come 442 00:25:51,262 --> 00:25:53,582 Speaker 3: from the place where it did as a police officer. 443 00:25:54,062 --> 00:25:58,262 Speaker 3: The media attention was extraordinary and it was rolling coverage 444 00:25:58,302 --> 00:26:02,742 Speaker 3: for days on TV, on radio, on newspaper front pages, 445 00:26:03,222 --> 00:26:06,382 Speaker 3: that's when we found out about all the history with 446 00:26:06,502 --> 00:26:10,422 Speaker 3: mister Cousins, his workplace, the colleagues who didn't quite try 447 00:26:10,422 --> 00:26:15,662 Speaker 3: trust him, the indecent exposures. That then led to US networks, 448 00:26:15,942 --> 00:26:20,902 Speaker 3: global TV channels, radio stations coming to the UK, coming 449 00:26:20,942 --> 00:26:23,462 Speaker 3: to London to really get a sense of the area 450 00:26:23,582 --> 00:26:26,902 Speaker 3: and what happened to Sarah, How this was allowed to happen, 451 00:26:27,542 --> 00:26:30,982 Speaker 3: Was there anything unique about that area of London or different? 452 00:26:31,062 --> 00:26:34,702 Speaker 3: And the answers everyone came to were know. It was 453 00:26:34,982 --> 00:26:39,662 Speaker 3: a hideous act that I think many campaigners had feared 454 00:26:39,662 --> 00:26:43,582 Speaker 3: would happen for some time, with issues like misogyny and 455 00:26:43,582 --> 00:26:46,502 Speaker 3: with issues like violence against women and girls, and then 456 00:26:46,542 --> 00:26:49,302 Speaker 3: it happened, of course, in a way that was so 457 00:26:49,982 --> 00:26:54,342 Speaker 3: horrific and undescribable that I think it really touched a 458 00:26:54,462 --> 00:26:58,222 Speaker 3: huge part of the nation. It touched fathers, it touched mothers, 459 00:26:58,262 --> 00:27:02,382 Speaker 3: It touched young women in particular, their friends, their families, 460 00:27:02,982 --> 00:27:06,062 Speaker 3: and I think everyone was really on high alert as 461 00:27:06,102 --> 00:27:10,062 Speaker 3: to whilst London is an amazing city and whilst there 462 00:27:10,062 --> 00:27:15,062 Speaker 3: are fantastic things about the capital, clearly it only takes 463 00:27:15,182 --> 00:27:22,582 Speaker 3: one misogynist, one murderer, one rapist to really change everyone's attitude. 464 00:27:22,902 --> 00:27:26,982 Speaker 1: I remember covering the story here in Australia and looking 465 00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:29,062 Speaker 1: at it. I think the word I would use to 466 00:27:29,142 --> 00:27:33,662 Speaker 1: describe how everyone was feeling was rage. It was that visceral. 467 00:27:34,062 --> 00:27:36,942 Speaker 1: Everyone was obviously devastated by her death, but they were 468 00:27:36,982 --> 00:27:40,262 Speaker 1: so angry about the circumstances that led to it. And 469 00:27:40,342 --> 00:27:43,942 Speaker 1: I think as women, we've reported on violence against women 470 00:27:43,942 --> 00:27:46,982 Speaker 1: for so many years, and as a woman myself, I 471 00:27:47,102 --> 00:27:49,662 Speaker 1: still if I'm walking down a street later at night, 472 00:27:49,702 --> 00:27:51,542 Speaker 1: I've got keys in my hands, I'm on the phone. 473 00:27:51,782 --> 00:27:55,142 Speaker 1: We're constantly aware that we should be watching our backs, 474 00:27:55,142 --> 00:27:59,502 Speaker 1: that something could happen. So to see what happened to Sarah, 475 00:27:59,702 --> 00:28:03,262 Speaker 1: especially at the hands of a serving police officer, there 476 00:28:03,342 --> 00:28:06,982 Speaker 1: was so much anger. And I think the vigils that 477 00:28:07,102 --> 00:28:10,222 Speaker 1: happened across England and they happened here too in her honor, 478 00:28:10,902 --> 00:28:13,542 Speaker 1: that really spelled that out, because the women there and 479 00:28:13,582 --> 00:28:17,342 Speaker 1: the men were so angry. Can you talk a bit 480 00:28:17,382 --> 00:28:20,342 Speaker 1: about those vigils, because there were a number of arrests 481 00:28:20,382 --> 00:28:22,822 Speaker 1: there because they were quite controversial, weren't they They were kind 482 00:28:22,822 --> 00:28:24,382 Speaker 1: of in the middle of COVID. We weren't supposed to 483 00:28:24,422 --> 00:28:25,342 Speaker 1: be gathering. 484 00:28:25,182 --> 00:28:28,182 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and that led to all the confusion. You're 485 00:28:28,222 --> 00:28:30,582 Speaker 3: quite right about the rage, by the way, that quickly 486 00:28:30,622 --> 00:28:32,942 Speaker 3: turned into the overarching emotion. 487 00:28:33,582 --> 00:28:35,382 Speaker 2: And I think, being. 488 00:28:35,142 --> 00:28:38,062 Speaker 3: A man as well, there was a sense that men 489 00:28:38,102 --> 00:28:41,142 Speaker 3: in general weren't doing enough to really check themselves against 490 00:28:41,422 --> 00:28:44,022 Speaker 3: low forms of misogyny, and it was a real wake 491 00:28:44,102 --> 00:28:46,862 Speaker 3: up call I think for men across London and probably 492 00:28:46,862 --> 00:28:49,262 Speaker 3: across the world really as well. I totally agree in 493 00:28:49,342 --> 00:28:54,022 Speaker 3: terms of the vigials, this is really where it turned nasty. 494 00:28:54,582 --> 00:28:59,142 Speaker 3: In terms of the immediate coverage afterwards, everyone was united 495 00:28:59,222 --> 00:29:02,902 Speaker 3: and there was seemingly not much division because everyone rightly 496 00:29:02,942 --> 00:29:05,702 Speaker 3: was horrified by what had happened to Sarah and was 497 00:29:06,022 --> 00:29:10,382 Speaker 3: furious at how this serving police officer was able to 498 00:29:10,582 --> 00:29:12,822 Speaker 3: get away with it and how he was able to 499 00:29:12,982 --> 00:29:16,382 Speaker 3: use his power to this end. This happened a few 500 00:29:16,582 --> 00:29:19,902 Speaker 3: days later. This happened on the Saturday, where there were 501 00:29:20,302 --> 00:29:21,862 Speaker 3: vigils up and down the country. 502 00:29:21,902 --> 00:29:23,222 Speaker 2: It wasn't just in the capitol. 503 00:29:23,302 --> 00:29:27,582 Speaker 3: It was in areas like Liverpool, in Cardiff, Birmingham, Bristol, 504 00:29:27,622 --> 00:29:31,782 Speaker 3: the big cities of the UK, and one such vigil 505 00:29:31,982 --> 00:29:35,342 Speaker 3: took place at Clapham Common, which was the area we 506 00:29:35,382 --> 00:29:38,582 Speaker 3: referenced earlier, which was the very leafy part of South 507 00:29:38,622 --> 00:29:42,142 Speaker 3: London where Sarah was walking through on her way home 508 00:29:42,222 --> 00:29:46,582 Speaker 3: from Clapham to Brixton, and there was this vigil that 509 00:29:46,662 --> 00:29:50,182 Speaker 3: was scheduled to attend, and this had received significant media 510 00:29:50,302 --> 00:29:55,542 Speaker 3: attention because our politicians had been to attend the vigil. Kate, 511 00:29:55,942 --> 00:29:59,422 Speaker 3: the Duchess of Cambridge Catherine had attended as well, which 512 00:30:00,102 --> 00:30:02,902 Speaker 3: really gave it a huge impetus as well. I remember 513 00:30:02,902 --> 00:30:05,582 Speaker 3: she put a statement out of the time saying something 514 00:30:05,582 --> 00:30:08,262 Speaker 3: along the lines of she remembers what it was like 515 00:30:08,342 --> 00:30:11,982 Speaker 3: to be a young, vulnerable women walking home at night, 516 00:30:12,062 --> 00:30:15,062 Speaker 3: and so that really I think spoke to a lot 517 00:30:15,062 --> 00:30:17,742 Speaker 3: of people. So there was this anger in the first place, 518 00:30:18,382 --> 00:30:22,942 Speaker 3: and police had been liaising with those attending the vigil, 519 00:30:23,622 --> 00:30:26,702 Speaker 3: and I think they were trying to suss out the 520 00:30:26,742 --> 00:30:30,942 Speaker 3: line between whether they were there to observe a vigil 521 00:30:31,462 --> 00:30:33,102 Speaker 3: or whether there was a fear it would turn into 522 00:30:33,142 --> 00:30:36,782 Speaker 3: a protest, and they were saying that the latter of 523 00:30:36,822 --> 00:30:40,262 Speaker 3: that was not allowed, and indeed gatherings full stop were 524 00:30:40,302 --> 00:30:43,022 Speaker 3: not allowed, and they were told the organizers they could 525 00:30:43,062 --> 00:30:45,662 Speaker 3: face a fine if it was to go ahead, and 526 00:30:45,702 --> 00:30:47,862 Speaker 3: the fines for those sort of gatherings at the time 527 00:30:47,862 --> 00:30:50,622 Speaker 3: were around ten thousand pounds, so there was a warning 528 00:30:50,662 --> 00:30:53,262 Speaker 3: sign in there as well that this might happen. But 529 00:30:53,422 --> 00:30:57,062 Speaker 3: what happened on the actual day and into the night 530 00:30:57,382 --> 00:31:01,782 Speaker 3: was it really shocked and surprised people because you had 531 00:31:02,262 --> 00:31:06,862 Speaker 3: people being dragged away by police officers. You had young 532 00:31:06,902 --> 00:31:10,702 Speaker 3: women who have gone on to become leading campaign in 533 00:31:10,702 --> 00:31:13,582 Speaker 3: this field, like Patsy Stephenson, who was the sort of 534 00:31:13,662 --> 00:31:16,142 Speaker 3: image on a lot of newspaper front pages as she 535 00:31:16,302 --> 00:31:17,422 Speaker 3: was dragged away. 536 00:31:17,582 --> 00:31:18,422 Speaker 2: That particular day. 537 00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,502 Speaker 3: And so, yeah, people were arrested, people were fined under 538 00:31:21,542 --> 00:31:25,382 Speaker 3: the Coronavirus Act. What was striking as well was Boris Johnson, 539 00:31:25,422 --> 00:31:27,542 Speaker 3: who was the Prime Minister at the time, Sadik Khan, 540 00:31:27,542 --> 00:31:30,302 Speaker 3: who was the mayor of London. Politicians were united in 541 00:31:30,382 --> 00:31:33,822 Speaker 3: saying that perhaps these fixed penalty notices are not the 542 00:31:33,822 --> 00:31:36,502 Speaker 3: best idea in the police should back down, and they 543 00:31:36,502 --> 00:31:39,502 Speaker 3: didn't really and it took a few years for them 544 00:31:40,462 --> 00:31:44,742 Speaker 3: to really drop these prosecutions because I mean certainly up 545 00:31:44,822 --> 00:31:46,502 Speaker 3: until a few years ago they were still due to 546 00:31:46,502 --> 00:31:48,862 Speaker 3: be fined, in some cases a few hundred pounds for 547 00:31:48,902 --> 00:31:49,822 Speaker 3: attending this vigil. 548 00:31:50,422 --> 00:31:53,582 Speaker 1: But you can understand why people are looking at that, 549 00:31:53,782 --> 00:31:56,342 Speaker 1: and it's only further enraging them because you've got a 550 00:31:56,342 --> 00:31:59,222 Speaker 1: serving police officer who's behind bars charged with murder, and 551 00:31:59,262 --> 00:32:03,342 Speaker 1: then you've got these cops being really heavy handed with 552 00:32:03,422 --> 00:32:06,702 Speaker 1: people who are in mourning, and there's this huge spotlight 553 00:32:06,902 --> 00:32:08,102 Speaker 1: on the police force. 554 00:32:08,662 --> 00:32:11,182 Speaker 2: Yeah, the optics of it are terrible. 555 00:32:11,462 --> 00:32:14,462 Speaker 3: That you've got a police force that really needs to 556 00:32:14,502 --> 00:32:17,422 Speaker 3: regain trust. This is not the first scandal that had 557 00:32:17,502 --> 00:32:19,342 Speaker 3: hit the Met Police, by the way, it was already 558 00:32:19,862 --> 00:32:23,262 Speaker 3: under fire and this obviously opened up a whole new 559 00:32:23,342 --> 00:32:25,942 Speaker 3: world for them in terms of how they in any 560 00:32:25,982 --> 00:32:29,182 Speaker 3: way if they can restore trust with young women in particular. 561 00:32:29,662 --> 00:32:32,702 Speaker 3: I mean, in some cases they do this for safety reasons, 562 00:32:32,782 --> 00:32:34,742 Speaker 3: right if there is a young woman who is protesting, 563 00:32:34,822 --> 00:32:36,462 Speaker 3: or a young man for that matter, they will have 564 00:32:36,582 --> 00:32:39,422 Speaker 3: four officers for every one person because they say it 565 00:32:39,582 --> 00:32:43,262 Speaker 3: helps for safety reasons. However, when that image is then 566 00:32:43,302 --> 00:32:46,622 Speaker 3: plasted on the front of websites and newspapers, it looks 567 00:32:46,782 --> 00:32:51,262 Speaker 3: terrible because you have four police officers dragging away people 568 00:32:51,302 --> 00:32:55,342 Speaker 3: that look defenseless. The optics of it are just absolutely shocking. 569 00:32:55,342 --> 00:32:59,382 Speaker 3: And then the commissioner herself crested a Dick, who was 570 00:32:59,422 --> 00:33:01,622 Speaker 3: one of the most influential women in the country. She 571 00:33:01,822 --> 00:33:04,182 Speaker 3: was the first female commissioner of the met She led 572 00:33:04,182 --> 00:33:07,142 Speaker 3: the largest police force as far as women in power 573 00:33:07,582 --> 00:33:11,262 Speaker 3: were concerned in Britain in that time. She was in 574 00:33:11,302 --> 00:33:14,222 Speaker 3: a leading position, and I think there was some anger 575 00:33:14,262 --> 00:33:17,262 Speaker 3: in that she was defending her offices in the media 576 00:33:17,342 --> 00:33:19,862 Speaker 3: after math, and I think there was a sense that 577 00:33:19,982 --> 00:33:21,942 Speaker 3: she should have really tried to understand a bit more 578 00:33:22,622 --> 00:33:26,262 Speaker 3: what those women were so understandably upset about. 579 00:33:38,502 --> 00:33:41,582 Speaker 1: Let's get back to Cousins, because in early July he 580 00:33:41,862 --> 00:33:45,502 Speaker 1: pled guilty to murder. Do we know what he told 581 00:33:45,542 --> 00:33:48,022 Speaker 1: police or whether he told police anything, because he's obviously 582 00:33:48,142 --> 00:33:52,182 Speaker 1: changed his tune from the Eastern European gang story. What 583 00:33:52,342 --> 00:33:53,942 Speaker 1: was he saying at that point. 584 00:33:54,302 --> 00:33:56,942 Speaker 3: He clearly is a man who just couldn't get his 585 00:33:57,422 --> 00:34:00,062 Speaker 3: story straight and was trying every trick in the book 586 00:34:00,142 --> 00:34:04,422 Speaker 3: really to distract and to eke out time. The Eastern 587 00:34:04,422 --> 00:34:07,262 Speaker 3: European story was clearly not true, and indeed that body 588 00:34:07,262 --> 00:34:10,902 Speaker 3: cam footage was released afterwards, and this was a man 589 00:34:10,982 --> 00:34:15,382 Speaker 3: who really was sort of clutching at straws and was 590 00:34:15,502 --> 00:34:18,502 Speaker 3: telling police officers anything in order to put them off 591 00:34:18,502 --> 00:34:21,702 Speaker 3: the scent clearly an overconfident man who didn't realize that 592 00:34:21,782 --> 00:34:23,422 Speaker 3: his time was well and truly up and there was 593 00:34:23,422 --> 00:34:25,222 Speaker 3: no way he was going to get out of this. 594 00:34:25,382 --> 00:34:28,142 Speaker 3: But he clearly thought he was invincible and thought he 595 00:34:28,222 --> 00:34:31,182 Speaker 3: was totally untouchable at that point. And yeah, I mean 596 00:34:31,222 --> 00:34:34,222 Speaker 3: he ended up in due pleading guilty to kidnap and 597 00:34:34,342 --> 00:34:39,062 Speaker 3: rape and eventually admitted responsibility, But in terms of the 598 00:34:39,102 --> 00:34:45,342 Speaker 3: actual murder, he didn't actually plead guilty for murder straight away. 599 00:34:45,382 --> 00:34:49,262 Speaker 3: It took him some time before he eventually appeared from 600 00:34:49,342 --> 00:34:51,462 Speaker 3: prison because he was already in prison by that point 601 00:34:51,822 --> 00:34:56,302 Speaker 3: and then admitted that he had murdered Sarah or pled guilty, 602 00:34:56,342 --> 00:34:59,422 Speaker 3: i should say. And so it took some time for 603 00:34:59,582 --> 00:35:01,102 Speaker 3: him to plead guilty to all three. 604 00:35:00,942 --> 00:35:05,622 Speaker 1: Offenses, and he was sentenced to a whole life order. 605 00:35:05,942 --> 00:35:08,422 Speaker 1: Can you explain to us what that means? Does that 606 00:35:08,502 --> 00:35:09,982 Speaker 1: mean he's behind bars forever? 607 00:35:10,822 --> 00:35:12,862 Speaker 3: The problem is with whole life orders in the UK, 608 00:35:12,982 --> 00:35:15,262 Speaker 3: as is the case with sort of all different justice systems, 609 00:35:15,382 --> 00:35:18,982 Speaker 3: it means different things. So there's no sort of exact 610 00:35:19,182 --> 00:35:23,502 Speaker 3: time that Wayne Cousins will stay behind bars, but we 611 00:35:23,622 --> 00:35:26,382 Speaker 3: know that he will never get out because he will 612 00:35:26,422 --> 00:35:29,622 Speaker 3: never be given parole. So he will be granted parole 613 00:35:29,782 --> 00:35:32,662 Speaker 3: I think in around thirty five years time. That's the 614 00:35:32,702 --> 00:35:35,262 Speaker 3: minimum you can get for a whole life order. He 615 00:35:35,342 --> 00:35:38,382 Speaker 3: then presumably will apply for parole that remains to be seen, 616 00:35:38,742 --> 00:35:40,702 Speaker 3: but he will never be given that, and so he 617 00:35:40,742 --> 00:35:45,542 Speaker 3: will constantly be kept in and he also had, as 618 00:35:45,542 --> 00:35:48,182 Speaker 3: we mentioned, the indecent exposure. Afterwards, he's got a further 619 00:35:48,302 --> 00:35:52,062 Speaker 3: year added to that sentence as well. 620 00:35:52,342 --> 00:35:56,062 Speaker 1: Have we heard from Sarah's family during this process, because 621 00:35:56,062 --> 00:35:59,022 Speaker 1: obviously they were spared the horror of a trial, but 622 00:35:59,102 --> 00:36:04,542 Speaker 1: often a family gets to address their loved ones murderer. 623 00:36:04,822 --> 00:36:06,982 Speaker 1: Did they choose to do anything like that or were 624 00:36:06,982 --> 00:36:10,062 Speaker 1: they very outspoken with the media during all of this? 625 00:36:10,982 --> 00:36:11,582 Speaker 2: No, they weren't. 626 00:36:11,662 --> 00:36:16,182 Speaker 3: Really, They weren't outspoken with the media, and understandably people 627 00:36:16,262 --> 00:36:19,222 Speaker 3: process these things in different ways. I mean, what can 628 00:36:19,262 --> 00:36:22,102 Speaker 3: you say in the immediate aftermath of something like that. 629 00:36:22,702 --> 00:36:26,422 Speaker 3: Her boyfriend as well, Josh, who we referenced earlier. I mean, 630 00:36:26,462 --> 00:36:30,462 Speaker 3: we didn't really hear from them throughout, and there was 631 00:36:30,542 --> 00:36:34,142 Speaker 3: clearly a desire to speak to them, but clearly also 632 00:36:34,262 --> 00:36:37,342 Speaker 3: a more important point that they wanted their privacy to 633 00:36:37,342 --> 00:36:40,502 Speaker 3: be respected. So we heard bits and pieces from spokespeople 634 00:36:40,542 --> 00:36:43,062 Speaker 3: from the family as far as I remember where her 635 00:36:43,102 --> 00:36:47,262 Speaker 3: parents would comment on the conclusion of the trial. I 636 00:36:47,302 --> 00:36:50,262 Speaker 3: know at one point they sort of said that him 637 00:36:50,422 --> 00:36:54,902 Speaker 3: finally being arrested and charged did bring them some form 638 00:36:54,942 --> 00:36:58,502 Speaker 3: of justice. But there weren't sort of regular public statements 639 00:36:58,542 --> 00:36:59,142 Speaker 3: from the family. 640 00:37:00,022 --> 00:37:03,342 Speaker 1: After everything had happened in terms of the court processes 641 00:37:03,582 --> 00:37:07,982 Speaker 1: and Cousins was sentenced put behind bars, the Home Office 642 00:37:08,102 --> 00:37:11,782 Speaker 1: established an Independent Inquiry talle end of twenty twenty one. 643 00:37:12,462 --> 00:37:13,182 Speaker 1: What was that for. 644 00:37:14,342 --> 00:37:18,782 Speaker 3: Various inquiries set up? This was the Angelini Inquiry, which 645 00:37:19,062 --> 00:37:22,262 Speaker 3: was the sort of Home Office the IOPC, the Independent 646 00:37:22,342 --> 00:37:25,982 Speaker 3: Office for Police Conduct did one. Her Majesty's Inspectorate did one. 647 00:37:26,702 --> 00:37:31,182 Speaker 3: And this particular inquiry was really looking at how we 648 00:37:31,222 --> 00:37:34,342 Speaker 3: move forwards in terms of how police officers are vetted, 649 00:37:34,382 --> 00:37:37,742 Speaker 3: because we mentioned about Wayne Cousins earlier on and seemingly 650 00:37:37,822 --> 00:37:39,982 Speaker 3: how this man was not only able to be a 651 00:37:40,022 --> 00:37:43,862 Speaker 3: police officer and possess a warrant card, but the fact 652 00:37:43,982 --> 00:37:47,862 Speaker 3: that he was vetted and clearly not vetted to the 653 00:37:47,942 --> 00:37:51,782 Speaker 3: right standard. And so yeah, I mean, this report only 654 00:37:51,822 --> 00:37:53,182 Speaker 3: came back a few months back. 655 00:37:53,302 --> 00:37:54,182 Speaker 2: It's a long. 656 00:37:54,062 --> 00:37:56,982 Speaker 3: Inquiry that's going on three parts. I think it is 657 00:37:57,022 --> 00:38:01,582 Speaker 3: from memory and they are looking into how these warning 658 00:38:01,702 --> 00:38:05,862 Speaker 3: signs can be spotted early on and how these failures 659 00:38:05,862 --> 00:38:08,982 Speaker 3: from police which were apparent in this case can be 660 00:38:09,022 --> 00:38:12,462 Speaker 3: tackled in the future. So we've had some of that back, 661 00:38:12,662 --> 00:38:16,702 Speaker 3: not the whole inquiry, but certainly some important aspects of it, 662 00:38:17,342 --> 00:38:20,862 Speaker 3: really looking at whether the police systems to deal with 663 00:38:20,902 --> 00:38:24,822 Speaker 3: new recruits to hire people are fit for purpose and 664 00:38:24,862 --> 00:38:27,422 Speaker 3: to be fair to the new commissioner some Mark Rowley 665 00:38:27,462 --> 00:38:30,742 Speaker 3: from the Police, he has been very welcoming of this 666 00:38:30,982 --> 00:38:34,422 Speaker 3: inquiry and says that he wants to learn fully from 667 00:38:34,462 --> 00:38:38,142 Speaker 3: exactly what the findings are. And the Home Secretary, clearly 668 00:38:38,182 --> 00:38:41,582 Speaker 3: who's ordered it, will be monitoring it closely because the 669 00:38:41,622 --> 00:38:44,382 Speaker 3: one thing that the government wants out of this and 670 00:38:44,422 --> 00:38:46,382 Speaker 3: the opposition, and it's one of the few issues that 671 00:38:46,502 --> 00:38:50,422 Speaker 3: obviously unites political parties at what is quite a divided time, 672 00:38:51,022 --> 00:38:54,262 Speaker 3: is trying to make sure when it comes to policing 673 00:38:54,782 --> 00:38:57,422 Speaker 3: trust is restored. And the only way to do that 674 00:38:57,942 --> 00:39:01,222 Speaker 3: is to actually ensure that this can never happen again. 675 00:39:02,062 --> 00:39:04,222 Speaker 1: But do you think we've got a long way to go? 676 00:39:04,302 --> 00:39:07,502 Speaker 1: Because from what I've read about that inquiry. Some pretty 677 00:39:07,502 --> 00:39:12,662 Speaker 1: shocking things came out of a lot of those investigations. 678 00:39:12,862 --> 00:39:15,542 Speaker 1: One of those reports was called the most damning reports 679 00:39:15,702 --> 00:39:17,782 Speaker 1: in the force's history. You know, we're not just talking 680 00:39:17,782 --> 00:39:24,462 Speaker 1: about misogyny, sexism, racism, homophobic natures. There's some pretty entwined 681 00:39:24,502 --> 00:39:25,942 Speaker 1: stuff to kind of work through. 682 00:39:26,422 --> 00:39:28,622 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's clearly some way to go. And I 683 00:39:28,662 --> 00:39:32,902 Speaker 3: think things are being discovered now which the Met was 684 00:39:32,982 --> 00:39:36,382 Speaker 3: totally unaware of. And so there are various operations in 685 00:39:36,422 --> 00:39:38,982 Speaker 3: place that are looking at rooting out rogue officers and 686 00:39:39,022 --> 00:39:42,702 Speaker 3: are looking at routing out people who have previous convictions. 687 00:39:42,742 --> 00:39:46,102 Speaker 3: But what's extraordinary is I mean even now you get 688 00:39:46,182 --> 00:39:48,662 Speaker 3: cases that come in from the Met Police and from 689 00:39:48,702 --> 00:39:51,142 Speaker 3: police forces across the UK, but it is normally the 690 00:39:51,182 --> 00:39:54,702 Speaker 3: Met in London of officers who are then chucked out 691 00:39:54,702 --> 00:39:58,062 Speaker 3: and suspended for other allegations of rape, who are suspended 692 00:39:58,102 --> 00:40:02,502 Speaker 3: for sexual assault. And the phrase rotten apples was used 693 00:40:02,582 --> 00:40:06,142 Speaker 3: quite a lot in the police seem to try and 694 00:40:06,182 --> 00:40:08,902 Speaker 3: explain it by saying there were a few rotten apples 695 00:40:08,902 --> 00:40:12,822 Speaker 3: in the force, which angered many campaigners because certainly what 696 00:40:12,902 --> 00:40:15,222 Speaker 3: that review found and there was the Casey review as well, 697 00:40:15,222 --> 00:40:17,822 Speaker 3: which looked at the whole culture, and I mean, as 698 00:40:17,862 --> 00:40:19,702 Speaker 3: you say, to say it was damming was an understatement. 699 00:40:19,822 --> 00:40:23,182 Speaker 3: It was just showing that women in London. First, he 700 00:40:23,262 --> 00:40:25,782 Speaker 3: couldn't seemingly trust the police based on some of the 701 00:40:25,822 --> 00:40:29,062 Speaker 3: things that were going on. But one officer said they 702 00:40:29,142 --> 00:40:34,102 Speaker 3: feared that sexual assault had become effectively decriminalized because the 703 00:40:34,142 --> 00:40:37,142 Speaker 3: conviction rate was so low, and it's halved in the 704 00:40:37,222 --> 00:40:40,142 Speaker 3: last eight years. So this is an issue that is 705 00:40:40,182 --> 00:40:42,582 Speaker 3: not necessarily improving. It's an issue where there is a 706 00:40:42,622 --> 00:40:45,502 Speaker 3: spotlight shone on it. But is there a long way 707 00:40:45,542 --> 00:40:48,902 Speaker 3: to go? Goodness me, there is that police force, the 708 00:40:48,982 --> 00:40:53,742 Speaker 3: met in particular needs real change. These rogue officers need 709 00:40:53,822 --> 00:40:56,702 Speaker 3: to be rooted out. And rogue officers is the phrase 710 00:40:56,742 --> 00:40:58,662 Speaker 3: that it's used. But let's say for what it is, 711 00:40:58,742 --> 00:41:01,382 Speaker 3: people who commit sexual assaults, people who commit to the 712 00:41:01,382 --> 00:41:03,782 Speaker 3: most heinous acts, not trying to explain it away by 713 00:41:03,902 --> 00:41:07,982 Speaker 3: rogue officers. These are terrible individuals who shouldn't in any 714 00:41:08,102 --> 00:41:13,182 Speaker 3: sense have jobs within flames, let alone be public servants 715 00:41:13,302 --> 00:41:17,302 Speaker 3: representing the police. It's extraordinary, it's angering and I think 716 00:41:17,382 --> 00:41:20,942 Speaker 3: is what is fueling many campaigners to keep the fight 717 00:41:21,062 --> 00:41:25,302 Speaker 3: going and to ensure that the police force is totally changed, 718 00:41:25,382 --> 00:41:28,182 Speaker 3: because however it was, however it is at the moment 719 00:41:28,222 --> 00:41:29,462 Speaker 3: clearly can't continue. 720 00:41:29,782 --> 00:41:32,822 Speaker 1: Do you think women feel better having all of this 721 00:41:32,942 --> 00:41:35,782 Speaker 1: out in the open, having cousins behind bars, having all 722 00:41:35,822 --> 00:41:39,462 Speaker 1: of these spotlights shone on everything, because I'm struggling to 723 00:41:39,462 --> 00:41:42,342 Speaker 1: see how as a woman in England you feel safe 724 00:41:42,662 --> 00:41:45,742 Speaker 1: with all of this happening. I know that Sarah's murderer 725 00:41:45,782 --> 00:41:49,222 Speaker 1: was a few years ago now, but is the sentiment 726 00:41:50,022 --> 00:41:54,182 Speaker 1: improved a few years later? Do women feel safe around 727 00:41:54,302 --> 00:41:55,462 Speaker 1: law enforcement now? 728 00:41:55,782 --> 00:41:57,262 Speaker 2: I would say no yet. 729 00:41:57,382 --> 00:41:59,422 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I can't speak, as you know, as 730 00:41:59,422 --> 00:42:01,902 Speaker 3: a young woman, but certainly the conversations I have with 731 00:42:01,982 --> 00:42:04,462 Speaker 3: friends who are in their twenties young women, is that 732 00:42:04,982 --> 00:42:07,582 Speaker 3: the answer is no, they don't feel safe with the police. 733 00:42:07,622 --> 00:42:07,822 Speaker 2: Yet. 734 00:42:07,902 --> 00:42:11,342 Speaker 3: I think there's a recognition that, whilst these cases are 735 00:42:11,382 --> 00:42:14,582 Speaker 3: so horrible and they don't want to necessarily read about 736 00:42:14,622 --> 00:42:18,062 Speaker 3: it every day, when these do come to life, it's 737 00:42:18,142 --> 00:42:20,982 Speaker 3: positive in the sense that it keeps it in the conversation. 738 00:42:21,142 --> 00:42:24,822 Speaker 3: We As I've said, so many reviews into what happened 739 00:42:24,942 --> 00:42:29,182 Speaker 3: in this particular case. There are stories that are frequently 740 00:42:29,302 --> 00:42:32,502 Speaker 3: emerging in terms of people in police forces who shouldn't 741 00:42:32,502 --> 00:42:35,222 Speaker 3: be there. These are shocking every time you read them, 742 00:42:35,502 --> 00:42:38,782 Speaker 3: but I think there is a sense that they may 743 00:42:38,822 --> 00:42:41,622 Speaker 3: not have actually been caught. These people, they may not 744 00:42:41,662 --> 00:42:44,902 Speaker 3: have actually faced justice had it not been for the 745 00:42:45,382 --> 00:42:47,902 Speaker 3: renewed focus on it over the last few years. 746 00:42:47,942 --> 00:42:49,862 Speaker 2: So I think it's tough. Really. 747 00:42:50,022 --> 00:42:52,302 Speaker 3: You read about these things every week, it would seem, 748 00:42:52,342 --> 00:42:55,262 Speaker 3: and of course you wouldn't feel safe reading about this 749 00:42:55,342 --> 00:42:58,702 Speaker 3: happening in the capital city and these people in positions 750 00:42:58,742 --> 00:43:05,422 Speaker 3: of power. But it's certainly the first time where the police, politicians, 751 00:43:05,902 --> 00:43:08,942 Speaker 3: I suppose because they have to be, are really making 752 00:43:08,982 --> 00:43:12,102 Speaker 3: this a priority and that can only be a good thing. 753 00:43:17,302 --> 00:43:19,742 Speaker 1: Thanks to Henry for assisting us to tell this story. 754 00:43:20,302 --> 00:43:23,382 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and 755 00:43:23,382 --> 00:43:27,142 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath, with audio design by Scott Stronik. 756 00:43:27,542 --> 00:43:31,622 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening. 757 00:43:31,742 --> 00:43:34,342 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation. 758 00:43:34,862 --> 00:43:37,062 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you've got feedback or a case 759 00:43:37,102 --> 00:43:39,142 Speaker 1: you'd like us to cover next, you can send us 760 00:43:39,142 --> 00:43:40,982 Speaker 1: a voice note through the link in our show notes, 761 00:43:41,102 --> 00:43:44,502 Speaker 1: or email us at true Crime at mammamea dot com, 762 00:43:44,542 --> 00:43:47,662 Speaker 1: dot au