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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on a quick heads up.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of mental health and suicide. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm Taylor Strano. This is MMA MIA's twice daily news podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Quickie. The number of people using AI is growing,

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Speaker 2: whether it be for inspo with the weekly dinner menu,

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Speaker 2: planning your dream holiday itinerary, or maybe to help speed

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Speaker 2: things up at work. It's really all around us. Some

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Speaker 2: of us are using it for financial planning, to answer

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Speaker 2: those weird little questions that keep us up at night,

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Speaker 2: and even for therapy, unpacking those cryptic texts from a

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Speaker 2: potential new bo or helping.

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Speaker 1: To sort through a friendship query.

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Speaker 2: Now though, teenagers are turning to AI chatbots for mental

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Speaker 2: health care. So what happens when a digital friend a

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Speaker 2: substitute for parents, friends, or real life professionals. Following Mamma

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Speaker 2: MIA's new investigation, we look at the risks, the shocking stories,

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Speaker 2: and the growing calls for urgent regulation as more teens

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Speaker 2: log their deepest fears with artificial intelligence. Before we get there,

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Speaker 2: here's Claire Murphy with the latest from the QUICKI newsroom

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Speaker 2: for Wednesday, September three.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Taylor, Anna, Wintour's replacement has been announced as a

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Speaker 1: longtime American Vogue editor steps down after thirty seven years.

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Speaker 1: Thirty nine year old Chloe Mal, the daughter of actress

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Speaker 1: Candice Bergen, will take over from wind Tour, her predecessor,

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Speaker 1: describing her replacement as one of Vogue's secret weapons, saying

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Speaker 1: when it came time to hire someone, she knew she

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Speaker 1: had one chance to get it right, saying Chloe has

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Speaker 1: proven often that she can find the balance between American

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Speaker 1: Vogue's long, singular history and its future on the front

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Speaker 1: lines of the new Win Tour. Will continue on as

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Speaker 1: Chief Content Officer at Conde Nast, which she's been doing

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Speaker 1: since twenty twenty, overseeing Vogue's content as well as other

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Speaker 1: publications including GQ, Magazine, Wired, and Tatler. Chloe Mal says

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Speaker 1: Vogue has already shaped who she is, and she's now

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Speaker 1: excited at the prospect of shaping Vogue. But she's also

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Speaker 1: glad that win Tour will be just down the hall

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Speaker 1: as her mentor businesses in the popular Alpine region who

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Speaker 1: should be gearing up for a bumper school holiday season

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Speaker 1: are instead grappling with the impact of a massive hunt

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Speaker 1: for accused police killer Desi Freeman. Residents and tourists have

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Speaker 1: been told to limit movements through the Victorian high Country

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Speaker 1: as police search for the accused gunman, wanted for more

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Speaker 1: than a week now since a deadly confrontation at pau Punker,

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Speaker 1: about three hundred kilometers northeast of Melbourne. According to Brighton

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Speaker 1: District Chamber of Commerce president and Peppo Farm's chief executive

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Speaker 1: Marcus Warner, local operators are reporting a sixty percent loss

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Speaker 1: of income since the search started on August twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Local residents and accommodation operators say they've had mass cancelations

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Speaker 1: and are now forced to cut casual shifts, with one

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Speaker 1: business ten thousand dollars out of pocket. As a search

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Speaker 1: for free him and continued on Tuesday, Former Detective Charlie

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Speaker 1: Bezina said it would be difficult to maintain this scale,

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Speaker 1: but police can't afford to just pack up and leave.

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Speaker 1: Thomas Sule, the leader of an Australian neo Nazi group

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Speaker 1: who marched in protest of immigration on the weekend, has

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Speaker 1: been charged over an attack on a first Nation's camp

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Speaker 1: after Sunday's rally. Police handcuffed the thirty two year old

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Speaker 1: outside the Melbourne Magistrates Court yesterday, where he'd appeared on

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Speaker 1: charges relating to intimidating a police officer and breaching an

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Speaker 1: intervention order last night charging him with violent disorder, a fray,

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Speaker 1: assault and discharging a missile. He'll be back in court today.

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Speaker 1: Two others were also arrested in relation to Sunday's attack,

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Speaker 1: where around forty men dressed in black, some armed with

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Speaker 1: sticks and flagpoles, assaulted the members of Camp Sovereignty. A

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Speaker 1: video from the day of the attack appears to show

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Speaker 1: mister Sewele was one of those men. A magnitude five

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Speaker 1: point five earthquake has shaken southeastern Afghanistan, two days after

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Speaker 1: a large quake in the same region killed more than

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred people and injured thousands more. Tuesday's quake occurred

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Speaker 1: at a relatively shallow depth of ten kilometers, the same

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Speaker 1: level as the one that struck at midnight on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: with a magnitude of six, one of Afghanistan's worst quakes

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Speaker 1: in years, flattening houses in remote villages. The aftershock caused

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Speaker 1: panic and halted rescue efforts as it sent rocks sliding

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Speaker 1: down mountains, cutting off roads further and making it dangerous

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Speaker 1: to dig through the rubble. At least fourteen hundred and

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Speaker 1: eleven people are known to have died, with that number

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Speaker 1: expected to rise. Threey one hundred and twenty four have

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Speaker 1: been injured, and more than five th four hundred homes

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Speaker 1: have been destroyed. A US judge has ruled that President

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's mobilization of the National Guard in California was illegal.

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Speaker 1: The National Guard, which is a state controlled military force,

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Speaker 1: is usually only deployed by the federal government in times

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Speaker 1: of national emergencies. However, Trump mobilized them in the face

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Speaker 1: of protests against his harsh crackdowns on immigrants who are

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Speaker 1: being detained. The governor of California says the judge has

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Speaker 1: sided with democracy. Seeinger Justin Bieber has made a bride's

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Speaker 1: day even more memorable, taking photos with her and her

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Speaker 1: girls in the lobby of the hotel where she was

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Speaker 1: celebrating her nuptials. A Beaver fan account posted photos and

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Speaker 1: a short video of the interaction where he approached the

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Speaker 1: bride in the La Hotel with a big smile on

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Speaker 1: his face, giving her a thumbs up. She and her

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Speaker 1: girls are dressed in their stunning saries. Then took both

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Speaker 1: a single shop with the bride and another in a

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Speaker 1: group shop with the singer. Thanks Claire.

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Speaker 2: Next, why are so many teens sharing their troubles with

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Speaker 2: an Internet robot? It's a scene that's playing out quietly

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Speaker 2: in bedrooms around the world. A teenager closes the door,

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Speaker 2: grabs their phone, and pours their heart out, not to

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Speaker 2: a parent, a best friend, or even a counselor, but

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Speaker 2: to the seemingly endless patience of an AI chatbot. It's easy,

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Speaker 2: available twenty four to seven, and it never gets tired

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Speaker 2: or annoyed. But as Mummama's recent investigation found, the new

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Speaker 2: digital confessional comes with real risks.

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Speaker 1: Take Lisa's story.

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Speaker 2: She thought she and her fifteen year old daughter were close,

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Speaker 2: but when her daughter recently revealed she'd been telling chat

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Speaker 2: gpt about her problems instead of coming to her, Lisa

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Speaker 2: was shocked. Most of her queries were about school, life, friendship,

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Speaker 2: and crushes, all pretty par for the course when you

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Speaker 2: consider what's important to a fifteen year old. But gradually

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Speaker 2: Lisa noticed her daughter withdrawing and like many parents was

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Speaker 2: left wondering is it safe to offload emotions onto a robot?

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Speaker 2: This is becoming less unusual every day. International research shows

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Speaker 2: nearly three quarters of American teens have used an AI

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Speaker 2: chatbot as a companion, and nearly one in eight say

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Speaker 2: they've sought emotional or mental health support from their digital friend.

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Speaker 2: Therapists and tech experts alike her sounding the alarm. The

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Speaker 2: biggest road flag is that, unlike a real therapist, AI

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Speaker 2: is basically programmed to be agreeable, to keep chatting, and

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Speaker 2: to avoid mad challenge or complexity. Doctor Gavin Brown is

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Speaker 2: the clinical director and a clinical psychologist at the Banyan's Healthcare.

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Speaker 2: He told us with AI, you get an echo chamber.

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Speaker 2: A real therapist will push you to think differently, and AI,

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Speaker 2: at best, just agrees. That's not the only risk. Chatbots

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Speaker 2: don't always recognize subtle danger cues. A similar investigation from

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Speaker 2: The New York Times found in some cases, when asked

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Speaker 2: about self harm, chatbots can offer up dangerous advice like

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Speaker 2: how to safely self harm or what to include in

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Speaker 2: a suicide note. While most models aim to refer users

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Speaker 2: to crisis helplines, their guardrails can degrade over long or

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Speaker 2: subtle conversations, leaving the door open to unsafe feedback. Algorithms

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Speaker 2: are also trained on massive, imperfect data sets, making it

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Speaker 2: hard to guarantee credible or ethical responses For teens whose

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Speaker 2: brains are still developing, the risks are multiplied, but big

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Speaker 2: tech is starting to take notice, andthropics teaming up with

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Speaker 2: mental health experts and adding new safety measures. While Open

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Speaker 2: AI says it's working on making chat GPT better at

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Speaker 2: handling emotionally sensitive moments, experts say we urgently need big

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Speaker 2: teenager focused clinical trials to test how safe and effective

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Speaker 2: AI support truly is the young people. So what should

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Speaker 2: parents and teens do? Mum mir Weekend editor Rafaela Chicarelli

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Speaker 2: has been looking into the rise of teens using therapy

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Speaker 2: via chatbots.

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Speaker 1: Rafaela, tell me about.

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Speaker 2: The case study you used to build this investigation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I spoke to a mum whose daughter had

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Speaker 3: been open about the fact that she was using AI

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Speaker 3: to kind of navigate some social dynamics she had been

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Speaker 3: experiencing at school. But the mother's concerns obviously stem from

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Speaker 3: the fact that she doesn't know where this chatboy is

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Speaker 3: sourcing the information from what exactly the queries are. She

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Speaker 3: thinks that she's just running queries about the fact her

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Speaker 3: friend is in a group of three, occasionally feels left

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Speaker 3: out or has concerns about why boys might not be

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Speaker 3: responding to her or liking her.

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Speaker 2: I feel like when I was that age, when I

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Speaker 2: was a fifteen year old girl in high school, I

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Speaker 2: had very much like the same kind of queries that

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Speaker 2: this kid has been putting into a chatbot, right, like

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Speaker 2: trying to work out social dynamics in a friend group,

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Speaker 2: or worrying about why a boy hasn't text me back,

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Speaker 2: or worrying about those early stage relationships that you want

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Speaker 2: to blossom and bloom. However, I was telling my friends

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Speaker 2: about those things. I was sometimes confiding in a parent

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Speaker 2: about them. This kid, though, that you have spoken to

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Speaker 2: the mother of, has turned to AI. What were some

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Speaker 2: of the reasoning. Did the mother provide any idea of

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Speaker 2: maybe why her child was doing this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the rationale that she got from her daughter

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Speaker 3: was that she didn't want to burden a human with

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Speaker 3: her problems. And I think that is something that we

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Speaker 3: can all be guilty of, regardless of age. I'm guilty

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 1: Myself.

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Speaker 3: Kids these days are very savvy when it comes to technology,

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Speaker 3: and they've got this tool with vast, vast potential and

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Speaker 3: resources that can feedback information almost instantly. There's something that

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Speaker 3: you have also had to look at a recent story

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Speaker 3: we spoke to you about. You spoke to an operator

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Speaker 3: at the Kid's Helpline about why kids and teens access

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Speaker 3: mental health help lines like that, and I feel like

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Speaker 3: he was saying the same kind of thing right that

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Speaker 3: kids don't want to be a burden, whether that be

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Speaker 3: to their parents or to teachers or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: I clocked that parallel as well. The story that you

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Speaker 3: refer to was talking specifically in regards to bullying. A

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Speaker 3: lot of kids were calling a helpline to get advice

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Speaker 3: around bullying rather than confiding in their parents. And I

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Speaker 3: just reinforces that children are just so intuitive and pick

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Speaker 3: up so much of parents what they might be feeling,

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Speaker 3: their stresses that they do kind of jumped to, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to add to that. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: try and fix this myself.

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Speaker 2: When you wrapped up speaking to this parent in your article,

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Speaker 2: which we'll link to in our show notes, folks can

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Speaker 2: go ahead and read it on the mum of Mere website.

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Speaker 1: What were her conclusions.

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Speaker 2: Did she find ways to help her child through using

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Speaker 2: things like chat GPT for therapy or is it something

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Speaker 2: that she, like a lot of parents out there, are

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Speaker 2: probably a little bit out of a loss of what

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Speaker 2: to do with this new world era of using chatbots

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Speaker 2: for therapy.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that she did raised was that

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Speaker 3: she wouldn't know how to access it herself, so she

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Speaker 3: doesn't know what exactly has been said to her daughter.

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Speaker 3: She does and has noticed that her daughter's behavior has

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Speaker 3: become a little bit more withdrawn. She doesn't know whether

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Speaker 3: that's part of being normal fifteen year old teenager. So

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Speaker 3: if it persists for a couple more weeks, I think

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Speaker 3: she's happened upon the conclusion that she will try and

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Speaker 3: reach out to someone herself to talk to, to try

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Speaker 3: and get advised on how to navigate what might be

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Speaker 3: happening and how to communicate with her daughter. And I

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Speaker 3: should add this mother made the point to say that

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Speaker 3: she had a very open relationship with her daughter prior

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Speaker 3: to this, that the daughter wouldn't be afraid to come

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Speaker 3: to her and talk about stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of seeking out other help, you also spoke

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Speaker 2: to a clinical psychologist for this investigation, doctor Gavin Brown. Now,

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Speaker 2: what did he have to say about the application of

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Speaker 2: AI in therapy. Is he like a one and done

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Speaker 2: we should ban and we should stop using it or

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Speaker 2: did he have a more nuanced approach.

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Speaker 3: He is definitely very nuanced. But he raised some interesting

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Speaker 3: points about chatbots that I hadn't considered, and that is

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Speaker 3: the fact that when they're used in a therapy context,

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Speaker 3: it does blur a fundamental line between a therapist and companion.

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Speaker 3: Chatbots are designed to engage us for as long as possible.

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Speaker 3: They're also designed to be agreeable and try and reinforce

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Speaker 3: our beliefs. So when you were using that in a

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Speaker 3: therapy context, you can actually have some behaviors reinforced that

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Speaker 3: shouldn't be reinforced. Therapy is about being actively challenged. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: your way of thinking might need to be reframed, and

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Speaker 3: I think one of his main concerns about this was

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Speaker 3: that fundamentally chatbots can't do this in a meaningful way.

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Speaker 2: Where do we go from here? Rafello And there's been

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Speaker 2: a big groundswell of wanting more oversight and AI companies

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Speaker 2: to really step in and take responsibility for what their

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Speaker 2: platforms are serving back to people, especially when we know

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Speaker 2: that now teens are accessing it for things like mental

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Speaker 2: health care.

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Speaker 3: The big reoccurring theme is regulation, regulation, regulation, and this

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Speaker 3: was one of the things that doctor Brown did point out.

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Speaker 3: We need regulation and we need it as fast as possible.

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Speaker 3: He actually pointed to social media and said it took

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Speaker 3: us a little bit too long to address the damaging

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Speaker 3: behaviors at social media was causing with young people specifically,

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Speaker 3: and that just can't happen with AI. It is advancing

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Speaker 3: at a rate with so many kind of different use

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Speaker 3: cases that we really need to have those guardrails put

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Speaker 3: in fact I used and put in place quickly.

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Speaker 2: If today's episode has stirred up any feelings for you

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Speaker 2: and you'd like to speak to an expert health is available,

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Speaker 2: you can contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. Thanks for

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Speaker 2: taking some time to feed your mind with us today. Hey,

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Speaker 2: Claire Mappy is back with another health fact for this

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Speaker 2: Women's Health Week.

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Speaker 1: Claire ever been told by adoptor it's okay to skip

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Speaker 1: your period if you're on the peel using an iud

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Speaker 1: or birth control implant. Doctor Mariam confirmed it really is okay,

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Speaker 1: and that you don't need to have a period because

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Speaker 1: you're not actually ovulating. All the sugar pills do is

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Speaker 1: a forced bleed. It's not a real period, and you

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Speaker 1: don't just keep filling up with blood until you pop.

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Speaker 1: You're basically in a period stasis, so the uterus lining

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Speaker 1: doesn't do its usual thickening it would do when you ovulate.

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Speaker 1: It's also why the pill can help with things like PMS,

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Speaker 1: because your usual hormone fluctuations in the lead up to

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Speaker 1: your period are kept more level.

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Speaker 2: If you want to hear more from Claire and her

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Speaker 2: wonderful co host, doctor Mariam, I've linked well that's the

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Speaker 2: women's health podcast they make together in our show notes

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Speaker 2: for you to listen to after this. The Quickie is

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Speaker 2: produced by me Taylor Strano and Claire Murphy, with audio

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Speaker 2: production by Lou Hill.