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Speaker 1: So much. You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: MoMA Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Hello. I'm Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the summer series of The Quikie.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: We are bringing you a lot of great news stuff

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Speaker 2: over this summer period, but we also want to have

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Speaker 2: a little look back at some of the things that

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Speaker 2: we think really defined this year. And I'm joined today

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Speaker 2: by producer extraordinary Taylor Strano.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, thank you for having me back, Claire.

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Speaker 5: I feel like we covered so much on the Quickie

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Speaker 5: this year, but not just here, across our entire podcast network.

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Speaker 5: There was a running theme and so while there's still

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Speaker 5: a few days left of twenty twenty four, I'm going

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Speaker 5: to call it early.

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Speaker 3: This was the year of the traad wife. Yep, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'll back that. Yeah, I mean, come on, like, let's

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Speaker 3: think about it.

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Speaker 5: From Ballerina Farm to Narasmith, and of course, there was

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Speaker 5: the release of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives season two.

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Speaker 3: I think coming very.

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Speaker 2: Soon is such a defining moment of twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 5: Yes, we were so obsessed, yet we could not get

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Speaker 5: enough of the Mormon Wives, the Traadwives, the homesteading, all

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Speaker 5: of it, and even here at the Quickie, Claire, you

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Speaker 5: had to unpack what I'm going to call a bit

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Speaker 5: of an identity crisis around trad wives.

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Speaker 2: There is this thing because we all here at Mamma

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Speaker 2: Mia would call ourselves staunchly feminist, but we all, in

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Speaker 2: the deep dark recesses of the back of our minds,

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Speaker 2: will admit that there's a tiny, weeny, little grain back

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Speaker 2: there that says, maybe I want to be at Traadwives.

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Speaker 2: Do I want to stay at home and just like

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Speaker 2: cook meals from scratch and look gorgeous in my kitchen?

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Speaker 5: Maybe I too could churn butter and wear an apron.

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Speaker 2: I know, but they're not even wearing aprons, Taylor. They're

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Speaker 2: wearing designer outfits. They've got brand deals with designer bags.

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Speaker 3: Like it is. It's wild.

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Speaker 2: It looks like a beautiful, amazing life, but we know

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Speaker 2: there's so much more to it than what we see

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Speaker 2: on their TikTok feeds. In this special edition of the

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Speaker 2: Quickie Selects, we have to revisit another conversation we had

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Speaker 2: here at Mamma Mea on the subject earlier this year.

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Speaker 2: The Times UK reporter Megan ag You managed to spend

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Speaker 2: a day with let's call her the treadwife, Hanna Nielman

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Speaker 2: aka Ballerina Farm, her husband Daniel and their eight children. Now,

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Speaker 2: Meghan's article went like hectically viral. She saw behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes of what we all saw as this glossy, beautiful,

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Speaker 2: you know, amazing farm experience, and what she saw was

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Speaker 2: very different to what has been posted across that social media.

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Speaker 3: So Mia sat down with Megan to find out more.

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Speaker 5: About just what it is that she discovered when she

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Speaker 5: wandered onto that farm in Utah and spoiler alert, it's

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Speaker 5: not all homesteading, churning butter and viral tiktoks.

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Speaker 1: How far away was it from your life?

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Speaker 4: Very different. I'm twenty nine and I now live in

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Speaker 4: New York, but had been living in London at the

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Speaker 4: beginning of the year.

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Speaker 1: This is journalist Meghan Agnew.

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Speaker 4: And I don't have any children, and I'm not married.

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Speaker 1: And you have a career outside the home, and.

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Speaker 4: I have a career and unmarried and childless at the

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Speaker 4: same age as my mum was when she was married

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Speaker 4: and with children.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to her today about trad wives. One trad wife,

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Speaker 1: in particular, perhaps the queen of the tradwives. Hannah Nielman.

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Speaker 1: She's thirty four and she runs Ballerina Farm with her husband, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: who's thirty five, and their eight children. They live in Utah,

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Speaker 1: which is often referred to as Mormon Country because a

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Speaker 1: lot of Mormons live there, and Hannah and Daniel are

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Speaker 1: both Mormons. Ballerina Farm is an actual farm with actual

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Speaker 1: animals which are farmed for food, and Hannah is an

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Speaker 1: actual Ballerina, at least she was until about after child

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Speaker 1: number two or three, when she stopped dancing professionally and

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Speaker 1: switched to farm life with her family. Ballerina Farm, though,

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Speaker 1: is also a brand, a huge brand with millions of

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Speaker 1: Instagram followers, where Hannah makes content about her farm life,

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Speaker 1: the meals that she makes from scratch, the babies she

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Speaker 1: births in her bedroom, the farm work that she and

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Speaker 1: her husband do, and all the many many children that

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Speaker 1: she homeschools. You'll see all of that on the Ballerina

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Speaker 1: Farm Instagram account. Here's the audio of one of Hannah's

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Speaker 1: reels about what an average day for her looks like.

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Speaker 1: This one has been liked by one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: thousand people.

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Speaker 6: I wake up no scor Joe, with the kids fed

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Speaker 6: and ready for a school which is in a little

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Speaker 6: schoolhouse we have here on the farm. Then today I

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Speaker 6: decided to make some soup.

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Speaker 1: Now, the images that you see when you watch this

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Speaker 1: reel are almost like a country music video.

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Speaker 6: Entered gathering food.

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Speaker 1: It's this depiction of a very wholesome Americana lifestyle, big

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Speaker 1: ranch under a big wide open sky, happy kids running barefoot. Everywhere.

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Speaker 1: We see Hannah exercising and nursing her youngest baby, picking

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Speaker 1: fresh produce from the garden, cooking and parenting. And there's

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Speaker 1: also a fair amount of Ballerina Farm product placement because

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Speaker 1: they sell protein powder and meat and sour dough starters

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Speaker 1: as well as merch through their Ballerina Farm website, and

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Speaker 1: all of it's a very sort of soft focus, aesthetically pleasing,

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Speaker 1: simple vibe. Hannah never breaks a sweat or looks stressed

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Speaker 1: or overwhelmed or even disheveled. And as you're about to

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Speaker 1: hear in this episode, that's not by accident. Because to

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Speaker 1: sell products, the Ballerina Farm sells a lifestyle, and the

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Speaker 1: lifestyle it sells is that of a traditional wife and mother.

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Speaker 1: Some even call it an ideology.

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Speaker 2: If you've been on social media, you've probably seen the

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Speaker 2: hashtag beautiful women cooking.

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Speaker 1: Cleaning, and embracing life as stay at home moms.

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Speaker 3: These glassy, gorgeous bit.

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Speaker 4: Showcasing life seemingly plucked out of history.

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Speaker 1: But for all the instagramminess of trad wives and their

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Speaker 1: proliferation on social media, it's rare for journalists to get

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Speaker 1: access to them. And maybe that's because it's a hard

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Speaker 1: image to keep up all day long in front of strangers.

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Speaker 1: But somehow, The Times journalist Megan Agnew did get access.

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Speaker 1: She spent a whole day at Ballerina Farm with Hannah

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Speaker 1: Nielman and her family, and then she wrote a profile

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Speaker 1: for The Times that went viral and sparked a million

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Speaker 1: think pieces about Ballerina Farm and tradwives. And what was

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Speaker 1: the reaction from Hannah and her husband Daniel after the

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Speaker 1: profile came out.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that they were thrilled.

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Speaker 1: Yeah from Mamma Maya, this is no filter. I'm Meya Friedman.

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Speaker 1: And let's get into it by starting with some basics.

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Speaker 1: What even is a tradwife and how is a tradwife

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Speaker 1: different to say housewife or a stay at home mother.

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Speaker 4: My feeling about it is that it's about the public

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Speaker 4: way of being a housewife. So you can be a housewife,

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Speaker 4: but that's not being a tradwife because tradwife is performing

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Speaker 4: it on the internet for other people's consumption and as

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Speaker 4: a product that has the sort of shop front.

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Speaker 1: I guess when I interview former tradwives who've sort of

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Speaker 1: escaped from what they call the cult of trad wifery,

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Speaker 1: we free all roads tend to lead back to the

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Speaker 1: Douggers in terms of you know, Michelle and Jimbob who

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Speaker 1: with all of their children and that reality show that

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Speaker 1: was the first time we saw this trad wife life

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Speaker 1: being performed. Is that your understanding of where it all began.

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Speaker 4: I saw it beginning in lockdown, really on social media,

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Speaker 4: specifically when lots of people went back to this really

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Speaker 4: earthy existence of having their fingers in the soil and

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Speaker 4: making every morning. And we really wanted to do that,

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Speaker 4: and we really wanted to escapism, and I think we

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Speaker 4: really sort it out, and you know, we were like

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Speaker 4: on zoom calls and we kind of wanted that alternate lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: But I also think it's been rumbling on in the

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Speaker 4: background through pop culture as well. You look at like

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Speaker 4: the Kudashians, for example, who are a product that sells

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Speaker 4: glamorous motherhood and easy motherhood. You know, you don't see

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Speaker 4: the nannies, and you don't see the things happening. They

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Speaker 4: are occasionally referenced, but this is not a new thing

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Speaker 4: that's just appeared out of nowhere. It's really underwritten by

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Speaker 4: lots of other sort of pop culture politics, reality TV,

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Speaker 4: weird random things like COVID that we can't predict. So

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Speaker 4: I think it's sort of been rumbling on for a while.

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Speaker 1: Would you consider it like mostly an American phenomenon. It's

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Speaker 1: certainly been boosted by Instagram because you're right, a big

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Speaker 1: out of the treadwife aesthetic is the aesthetics. So Michelle

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Speaker 1: Dugger certainly didn't tick that box because no one wanted

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Speaker 1: to look that kind of amish depiction of what a

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Speaker 1: traditional wife looked like. There's also this overlay of hotness

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Speaker 1: to treadwives, isn't there. How do you say that?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's kind of a man's dream, right, It's like,

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Speaker 4: she can have all of my children that I impregnate

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Speaker 4: her with, and she's a beauty queen and she turns

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Speaker 4: out well, and she looks like this while she's on

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Speaker 4: my arm, And that's the perfect presentation of like American

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Speaker 4: family values, which I think you're right. I think in

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Speaker 4: the US the emphasis on family is so strong, particularly

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Speaker 4: as you know, a foreigner landing here from the UK. Comparatively,

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Speaker 4: it's really core to existence and also to existence since

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Speaker 4: you know, the pioneers went west, it was draw a

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Speaker 4: boundary of your own land and building a house on it,

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Speaker 4: and the politics, the darker politics, you know, obviously exists

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Speaker 4: alongside that building a house on it and filling it

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Speaker 4: with your family and pro creating this brilliant, pioneering American society.

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Speaker 4: So it's really built on that. And you can hear

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Speaker 4: it as well in the current election from the Republicans

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Speaker 4: talking about the importance of family and JD. Vance talking

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Speaker 4: about Kamala Harris not having a stake in the world

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Speaker 4: because she doesn't have children, and it all harks back

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Speaker 4: to this importance placed on nuclear, heterosexual family by a

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Speaker 4: certain aspect of American society.

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Speaker 1: How does Mormonism overlay, because I've been thinking about past

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Speaker 1: incarnations of these. Of course, there was Martha Stewart, who

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Speaker 1: was that sort of waspy whitebrid homemaker, you know, making

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Speaker 1: it all look aesthetically pleasing, but there wasn't the hotness

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Speaker 1: with her. And then there was Nigella Lawson, which is

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, her whole tongue in cheek domestic

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Speaker 1: Goddess series in her book. But that felt different because

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Speaker 1: she was clearly how was that different because it was Nigella.

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Speaker 4: Was naughty and is naughty, and she does everything with

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Speaker 4: this wink and she kind of makes shortcuts, and she

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Speaker 4: like crushes packets of salt and vinegar crisps on top

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Speaker 4: of her dinner parties pasta bake that she's just done,

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Speaker 4: and she like wham's whole packs of butter into things,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, and it's all about it's about being a listen.

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Speaker 4: It's about doing the things that you shouldn't do, which

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Speaker 4: is also within the confines of another sort of femininity.

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Speaker 4: It's not straightforward, but it is about naughtiness, and it's

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Speaker 4: about cutting corners, and it's about sort of making it

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Speaker 4: all look good but being a bit cheeky and probably

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Speaker 4: a great shag. You know, it's a kind of like

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Speaker 4: packaged that with all of that and that was thrilling

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Speaker 4: in that era. Before that, we had Delia Smith, who

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Speaker 4: was like very colored between the lines, and it was

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Speaker 4: about baking your cakes in the ark of and you

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Speaker 4: do it like this and you follow the instructions. And

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Speaker 4: she was very posh. And then Nigella was yeah, cheeky

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Speaker 4: and right.

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Speaker 1: So Nigella was sexy, but it wasn't that traditional model

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Speaker 1: of femininity with I guess it would be cool, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's often referred to as modesty.

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Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. And also the new wave of tradwives or

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Speaker 4: the wave of tradwise and not sexual. There is no

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Speaker 4: sexuality to them at all. They're very beautiful, but there's

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Speaker 4: no sexuality.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about Hannah. Hannah Nielman is unequivocally the

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Speaker 1: queen of tradwives. How did you first hear about bellerin

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Speaker 1: a farm? And Hannah?

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Speaker 4: I first heard about her when she did the New

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Speaker 4: York Times interview in January February, shortly after or during

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Speaker 4: the pageant, when she was twelve days postpartum, and that

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Speaker 4: went pretty viral. And then in those months after, I

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Speaker 4: started getting fed loads of content by her, and my

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Speaker 4: friends were sending me things like how funny is this?

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Speaker 4: And it would be Nara Smith making chewing gum and

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Speaker 4: talking in this sort of really breathy voice, and it

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Speaker 4: all just seemed quite mad and you couldn't really believe it.

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Speaker 1: How far away was it from your life?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 1: How old are you? What's your life?

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Speaker 7: Like?

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in the juxtaposition.

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Speaker 4: Very different. I'm twenty nine and I now live in

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Speaker 4: New York, but had been living in London at the

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Speaker 4: beginning of the year. And I don't have any children,

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Speaker 4: and I'm not married, and.

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Speaker 1: You have a career outside that, and I have a.

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Speaker 4: Career and I am unmarried and childless at the same

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Speaker 4: age as my mum was when she was married and

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Speaker 4: with children. So there's a diversion there. And I had

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Speaker 4: lots of conversations with my mom actually through this, because

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Speaker 4: she was like, I'm a trad wife. I was a

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Speaker 4: trad wife, you know, she stayed at home for a

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Speaker 4: period of time to look after us. So we had

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Speaker 4: lots of conversations about that. And a lot of the

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Speaker 4: pushback from the article and the controversy from the people

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Speaker 4: who felt it was so was around the fact that

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Speaker 4: I was in some way judging their lifestyle, who had

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Speaker 4: chosen these traditional models, but from conversations with my mom

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Speaker 4: and her friends and other people, it is a structure

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Speaker 4: that enables, not always, but enables for the issues. You know,

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Speaker 4: like you can and this is not my parents, just

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Speaker 4: for the record, that not having access to money in

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Speaker 4: a household has the potential to lead to really serious

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Speaker 4: financial and emotional abuse, or not having a boss separate

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Speaker 4: to your husband or your children can also do the same.

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Speaker 4: This is a structure that actually deserves more scrutiny. That's

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Speaker 4: not to say that we can't choose it, but I

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Speaker 4: do think and still believe now despite the endless DMS

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Speaker 4: that I received saying otherwise, but I still do believe

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Speaker 4: that it deserves a little bit more eyebrow raising because

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Speaker 4: we've seen it before. We've been sold this before, and

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Speaker 4: we've been missold it before, and I think that we

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Speaker 4: just need to slightly go into it, like not completely

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Speaker 4: blinkered by what's happened previously.

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Speaker 7: Before.

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Speaker 1: I ask you about your interview with the Nielmans. For

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Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar with Hannah and Bellerina Farm, can

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Speaker 1: you tell us who she was before she became famous

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Speaker 1: as Bada fam what's her origin story.

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Speaker 4: She was born into a Mormon family sort of near

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Speaker 4: to Salt Lake City, and she was the eighth of

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Speaker 4: nine children, and they were a pretty working class family.

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Speaker 4: They owned a sort of mum and pop flower shop basically,

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Speaker 4: and she was homeschooled and gravitated very naturally towards ballet.

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Speaker 4: Her brothers actually both went on to have a really

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Speaker 4: successful shed building company, so they were really naturally entrepreneurial family,

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Speaker 4: as with the parents, and so she gravitated towards ballet,

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Speaker 4: and over various summer holidays, got these sort of summer

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Speaker 4: camps at Juilliard and eventually qualified to do ballet at Juilliard,

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Speaker 4: which is this incredibly prestigious performing art school in New

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Speaker 4: York on the Upper Side West Side.

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Speaker 1: One of the and I'm not going to contradict, you

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Speaker 1: don't worry.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, super fancy and it's very lofty. And that's what

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Speaker 4: she did. And she wanted to be a ballerina, and

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Speaker 4: she wanted to live in New York City, which seemed wild.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's a long way from Utah, and it's

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Speaker 4: a long way from Mormon life. Though she did live

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Speaker 4: with other Mormon girls who she knew from church.

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Speaker 1: Do we know much about her life in New York

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Speaker 1: when she was studying ballet, It.

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Speaker 4: Was pretty church orientated, and I think in Mormon culture

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Speaker 4: that is quite important.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a sex in the city, you know,

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Speaker 1: coming to New York and living that kind of carry

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Speaker 1: Breadshaw life.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't a sex in the city life. But she

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Speaker 4: also said like something along the lines of New York

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Speaker 4: was my dream and New York is where I wanted

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Speaker 4: to be, So there obviously was a bit of that

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Speaker 4: in her. And she said when they still go back

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Speaker 4: now with all the kids, they go back every year

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Speaker 4: or whatever. She was like, I love it. I just

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Speaker 4: love the energy, and I love the vibe and I

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Speaker 4: love being there. So she was obviously really taken by it.

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Speaker 4: And you know, if you're taken by New York, then

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Speaker 4: you are also taken by the sort of sex and

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Speaker 4: city late night it's lots going on kind of vibe

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Speaker 4: because that's everywhere. It is sort of implicit in the

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Speaker 4: city too.

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Speaker 1: So what about Daniel Neielman, where did he grow up?

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Speaker 1: He had similar Mormon origins, but he grew up in

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Speaker 1: a very different way.

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Speaker 4: He grew up in a very very rich family, So

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Speaker 4: his father was the founder of Jet Blue, which is

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Speaker 4: an airline in the US, and various others and was

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Speaker 4: incredibly successful. And they grew up in Connecticut, which is

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Speaker 4: real sort of commuter belt, you know, there are so

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Speaker 4: many associations with Connecticut. And he would get on the

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Speaker 4: train every day and go to New York, and Daniel

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Speaker 4: as a teenager would get on the train with his

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Speaker 4: friends and go to the city. And so he lived

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Speaker 4: a life that was closer to it all and a

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Speaker 4: bit more integrated I suppose, with secular culture. And they

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Speaker 4: had a suburb and they didn't have any animals. They

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Speaker 4: had no animals. He had no family who were farmers,

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Speaker 4: but he dreamt of this big wildlife on a farm

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Speaker 4: way way out in the west. They had come from

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Speaker 4: Utah though his family and they have since returned there,

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Speaker 4: so they had a base there. And he at the

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Speaker 4: time was at university in Utah when he met Hannah

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Speaker 4: and was looking I suppose to work at one of

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Speaker 4: his father's companies. That's what he was going to graduate onto.

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Speaker 4: How did they meet, so, as they told me when

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Speaker 4: I was there, they met a basketball game, like a

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Speaker 4: college basketball game. They were introduced by mutual friends, so we.

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Speaker 6: Were men of the basketball game.

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Speaker 1: I was doing Thanksgiving break.

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Speaker 6: I was going to school in New York and Daniel

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Speaker 6: was going to school in Utah, so we kind of

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Speaker 6: like switched thats so I went hard.

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Speaker 1: I went back to school the following weekend.

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Speaker 4: Daniel was like, Oh my god, yes, let's go. I

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Speaker 4: want to marry this woman.

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Speaker 8: I was instantly smitten.

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Speaker 4: Hannah didn't want to date. Didn't want to do that yet.

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Speaker 8: It took Hannah longer to realize that we were so mad.

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Speaker 4: He texted her, he was like, please comm a date

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Speaker 4: with me. She said no for six months.

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Speaker 8: So we didn't see each other for six months. After

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Speaker 8: the first night we met, she.

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Speaker 4: Was back in Utah and mentioned to him that she

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Speaker 4: was flying to New York City on this flight from

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Speaker 4: Salt Lake and he said, oh, that's so funny. I'm

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Speaker 4: on the same flight. So they went and they checked

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Speaker 4: in and she was like, this is so weird. We're

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Speaker 4: sitting on seats next to each other. And he had

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Speaker 4: made a call to Jet Blue, which is the airline

365
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Speaker 4: they're flying with, which, yeah, which his father owned, And

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Speaker 4: they sat next to each other and that was the

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Speaker 4: first proper date. Which is a five and a half

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Speaker 4: hour's quite a long flight. I have done. It's five

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Speaker 4: and a half hour flight. It's quite a long date. Well,

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Speaker 4: you can't go anywhere. And that was their first date.

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Speaker 1: And so how did things progress from there? Because it's

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Speaker 1: interesting when you said she didn't want to date, she

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Speaker 1: clearly knew for her what dating meant and that it

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Speaker 1: would probably lead to marriage, which would lead to children.

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Speaker 1: And she was still focused on her career.

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Speaker 4: And this is a Mormon culture too, so you're right,

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Speaker 4: it is that you don't date in the same way

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Speaker 4: as I would. For example, it's much more proper, and

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Speaker 4: it's much more chaste, and it's much more you have

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Speaker 4: to be respectable. So often it leads to marriage. And

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Speaker 4: that wouldn't have been an unusual time for them to

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Speaker 4: have got married. In fact, lots of people get married earlier.

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Speaker 4: Because one yeah, and they dated and he said we

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Speaker 4: need to get married, we need to get married, and

385
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Speaker 4: she wanted to date for a year and then finish

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Speaker 4: her course and then get married, and he said that's

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Speaker 4: not going to work. So they got married three months later.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think he said that is that because

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Speaker 1: the subtext to me that was that I can't wait

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Speaker 1: that long to have sex with you.

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Speaker 4: I did also think that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like when he said that won't work

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Speaker 1: for me, I mean, like there's not a lot of

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Speaker 1: guys who are like, I really want to get married

395
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Speaker 1: it's urgent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And they also said, you know, we were so

397
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Speaker 4: in love with each other and we couldn't stay away

398
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Speaker 4: from each other. Yeah, So that is some of the

399
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Speaker 4: subtexts that I read too. But I also think that

400
00:22:33,774 --> 00:22:37,254
Speaker 4: he probably just wanted to lock it down. Yeah. You know,

401
00:22:37,334 --> 00:22:40,734
Speaker 4: she was a cat, She's gorgeous, and she comes from

402
00:22:40,734 --> 00:22:44,254
Speaker 4: a good family in Utah, and also had the sort

403
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Speaker 4: of glamour of New York too, which reflected his own

404
00:22:47,734 --> 00:22:51,374
Speaker 4: life in a way. I mean, I'm just reading into

405
00:22:51,454 --> 00:22:53,974
Speaker 4: what they told me. So this is just me speculating,

406
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Speaker 4: But I think he just wanted to lock it down.

407
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Speaker 4: And I wonder if she did a bit as well.

408
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Speaker 4: You know, it wouldn't have been respectable necessarily for her

409
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Speaker 4: to have dated for a year. She wasn't an unwilling

410
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Speaker 4: participant in all of this, but that was just how

411
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Speaker 4: the when. That was the bit that they did and

412
00:23:11,734 --> 00:23:14,094
Speaker 4: the story that they told. So it's difficult to know

413
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Speaker 4: who felt what when I like.

414
00:23:16,574 --> 00:23:20,454
Speaker 1: That it subverts that idea of the you know, young

415
00:23:20,494 --> 00:23:23,934
Speaker 1: woman trying to lock down the rich guy and him

416
00:23:24,014 --> 00:23:27,694
Speaker 1: wanting to keep his freedom until the last possible minute.

417
00:23:28,334 --> 00:23:31,934
Speaker 1: He was very much the one who wanted the commitment.

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Speaker 1: And so then what happened after they got married did

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Speaker 1: she give up her dancing career.

420
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Speaker 4: They stayed in New York for a couple of years

421
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Speaker 4: and they had their first and second child there I think,

422
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Speaker 4: and then they moved to Brazil because Daniel was made

423
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Speaker 4: the chairman of one of his father's companies, which is

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Speaker 4: a security business, and Brazil's quite a big outlet finally

425
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Speaker 4: for Mormon missions, so instead of a gap year, a

426
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Speaker 4: lot of Mormon's go and do mission and they work

427
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Speaker 4: with local community and they volunteer and they also sort

428
00:24:08,414 --> 00:24:10,854
Speaker 4: of spread the word of the life today saints. So

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Speaker 4: there's a large community of Mormons in Brazil, and they

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Speaker 4: also have a lot of business there. So they went

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Speaker 4: to live there and she had a third child, and

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Speaker 4: then that is when she gave up ballet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing. There's not a lot of dancers

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00:24:26,734 --> 00:24:29,174
Speaker 1: who come back even after one child. She you know,

435
00:24:29,454 --> 00:24:32,294
Speaker 1: you writing your piece that she kept dancing, and she

436
00:24:32,334 --> 00:24:34,574
Speaker 1: stayed at Julliard even when she was pregnant and was

437
00:24:34,614 --> 00:24:36,334
Speaker 1: the first dancer to do so.

438
00:24:37,174 --> 00:24:39,494
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean she said that it was really difficult.

439
00:24:39,774 --> 00:24:41,214
Speaker 4: It was like, it's one of those things that you

440
00:24:41,294 --> 00:24:44,654
Speaker 4: just can't do when you have babies and when you

441
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:49,774
Speaker 4: have children, which is a universal experience. I'm sure for

442
00:24:49,894 --> 00:24:53,174
Speaker 4: women that it's a difficult career to continue. Not impossible,

443
00:24:53,254 --> 00:24:56,894
Speaker 4: bit difficult. And so I think there was some relief

444
00:24:56,974 --> 00:24:59,854
Speaker 4: when she decided to give it up. But I went

445
00:24:59,974 --> 00:25:03,854
Speaker 4: back through her blogs. She had this blog when they

446
00:25:03,894 --> 00:25:07,574
Speaker 4: moved there and in the early days of her career

447
00:25:08,174 --> 00:25:12,694
Speaker 4: as a sort of online influencer, I suppose. And it's

448
00:25:12,774 --> 00:25:16,014
Speaker 4: really cute. It's just an account, a really honest written

449
00:25:16,014 --> 00:25:19,574
Speaker 4: account of her days and what she does and having babies.

450
00:25:20,214 --> 00:25:24,894
Speaker 4: And there was real heartbreak about her figuring out her

451
00:25:24,934 --> 00:25:28,934
Speaker 4: new identity as a mother and the long days with

452
00:25:29,014 --> 00:25:33,254
Speaker 4: the children. And as the blog post goes on, she

453
00:25:33,374 --> 00:25:37,494
Speaker 4: says something like, you know, I made the decision not

454
00:25:37,694 --> 00:25:41,454
Speaker 4: to see this as a sacrifice. I'm making the active

455
00:25:41,494 --> 00:25:44,294
Speaker 4: decision to see this as a gift that I am

456
00:25:44,334 --> 00:25:48,334
Speaker 4: bringing down the souls from heaven and embodying them in

457
00:25:48,374 --> 00:25:51,654
Speaker 4: my children, and we are creating something bigger, and we

458
00:25:51,694 --> 00:25:55,414
Speaker 4: are creating a legacy, a family legacy, and how important

459
00:25:55,534 --> 00:25:58,414
Speaker 4: is that? And there's nothing else more important. So you

460
00:25:58,454 --> 00:26:02,334
Speaker 4: could see the shift from her really struggling with it

461
00:26:02,414 --> 00:26:05,214
Speaker 4: and losing that identity of her own as a ballerina,

462
00:26:05,334 --> 00:26:08,134
Speaker 4: to then reframing it essentially.

463
00:26:10,414 --> 00:26:13,814
Speaker 1: In a moment. Ballerina Farm is big business and Hannah

464
00:26:13,814 --> 00:26:17,534
Speaker 1: and Daniel are super savvy. So is the treadwife thing

465
00:26:17,614 --> 00:26:20,374
Speaker 1: really just a marketing tool or are they for real?

466
00:26:21,094 --> 00:26:24,414
Speaker 1: More of my conversation with journalist Megan Agnew in Just

467
00:26:24,414 --> 00:26:29,254
Speaker 1: a Tick. So I didn't realize that she had an

468
00:26:29,334 --> 00:26:33,694
Speaker 1: online presence before she got married and before Ballerina Farm

469
00:26:33,774 --> 00:26:37,054
Speaker 1: was born? How was that brand, Ballerina Farm born.

470
00:26:37,454 --> 00:26:39,854
Speaker 4: The name or the brand itself or both.

471
00:26:39,614 --> 00:26:41,934
Speaker 1: Well both of it? Like how did she go? You know?

472
00:26:42,294 --> 00:26:44,174
Speaker 1: I know his dream was to live in a farm,

473
00:26:44,254 --> 00:26:46,894
Speaker 1: hers wasn't, and they ended up doing it, which a

474
00:26:46,894 --> 00:26:50,174
Speaker 1: lot of couples make sacrifices like that to pursue one

475
00:26:50,174 --> 00:26:52,294
Speaker 1: partner's dream and then the other one does often get

476
00:26:52,334 --> 00:26:54,814
Speaker 1: on board with it. But how did that happen? And

477
00:26:54,854 --> 00:26:57,574
Speaker 1: where did Ballerina Farm come from, because by the time

478
00:26:57,614 --> 00:27:00,774
Speaker 1: I heard of it, it was just this huge viral

479
00:27:00,814 --> 00:27:03,454
Speaker 1: sensation and she had millions of followers.

480
00:27:03,854 --> 00:27:09,014
Speaker 4: It was a really conscious maneuver. So she had been blogging,

481
00:27:09,694 --> 00:27:11,734
Speaker 4: and while they were in Brazil, she really fell in

482
00:27:11,734 --> 00:27:14,254
Speaker 4: love with animals and farming. So, as you say, this

483
00:27:14,454 --> 00:27:18,094
Speaker 4: was a transition that was made voluntarily, like she wasn't

484
00:27:18,174 --> 00:27:20,614
Speaker 4: dragged onto the farm in the middle of Utah. So

485
00:27:21,494 --> 00:27:25,254
Speaker 4: then they decided to move back and they buy this

486
00:27:25,414 --> 00:27:29,534
Speaker 4: first farm and she starts blogging about it. And there's

487
00:27:29,574 --> 00:27:31,614
Speaker 4: not even there's not running water on this farm. There's

488
00:27:31,654 --> 00:27:36,494
Speaker 4: no building, there's nothing. It's like completely raw land. And

489
00:27:37,014 --> 00:27:40,014
Speaker 4: every day after Daniel's work and after the kids had

490
00:27:40,014 --> 00:27:43,414
Speaker 4: done school, they drove an hour there from this basement

491
00:27:43,454 --> 00:27:47,734
Speaker 4: apartment they were renting, and she cooked meals on an

492
00:27:47,734 --> 00:27:51,454
Speaker 4: open fire basically, and Daniel was like building this house

493
00:27:51,454 --> 00:27:55,054
Speaker 4: with his bare hands, and they said it was great content.

494
00:27:55,414 --> 00:27:59,254
Speaker 4: They got loads of followers, and then they had this

495
00:27:59,334 --> 00:28:03,414
Speaker 4: terrible fire in the summer and it burnt everything they'd done.

496
00:28:03,414 --> 00:28:06,894
Speaker 4: It just burnt to the ground, and it got them

497
00:28:06,934 --> 00:28:09,614
Speaker 4: even more followers. And Hannah was like, oh no, I

498
00:28:09,654 --> 00:28:11,934
Speaker 4: think after the fire, it went from ten thousand to

499
00:28:11,974 --> 00:28:14,494
Speaker 4: fourteen thousand, and Daniel was like, no, no, no, it was

500
00:28:14,534 --> 00:28:16,694
Speaker 4: eleven thousand to seventeen thousand.

501
00:28:17,094 --> 00:28:22,614
Speaker 1: Oh wow. So they've always seen it as a mark

502
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:25,654
Speaker 1: of what is it. Their entrepreneur is his entrepreneurial brain

503
00:28:25,734 --> 00:28:29,894
Speaker 1: and clearly hers too that has seen it very consciously.

504
00:28:29,934 --> 00:28:31,614
Speaker 1: It's not a happy accident.

505
00:28:31,894 --> 00:28:36,054
Speaker 4: No, And she did courses, you know, online internet courses

506
00:28:36,094 --> 00:28:39,894
Speaker 4: to learn how to do it properly. This enabled their

507
00:28:39,974 --> 00:28:44,174
Speaker 4: dream essentially or his initially. You know, this was the

508
00:28:44,294 --> 00:28:51,414
Speaker 4: way to bankroll a really traditional small holding, which you

509
00:28:51,614 --> 00:28:57,894
Speaker 4: cannot uphold just by farming eighty cows. That's impossible in America.

510
00:28:57,974 --> 00:29:01,974
Speaker 1: So she was monetizing the account early on what sort

511
00:29:01,974 --> 00:29:03,494
Speaker 1: of brands wanted to work with her.

512
00:29:03,974 --> 00:29:09,054
Speaker 4: They were sort of doing like teetar, like homewear thing

513
00:29:09,894 --> 00:29:13,054
Speaker 4: and some food things, and now they do things like

514
00:29:13,854 --> 00:29:18,414
Speaker 4: protein shakes and like it's sort of an FedEx so

515
00:29:18,454 --> 00:29:22,694
Speaker 4: it's much more mainstream. But it was planned, but they

516
00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:25,654
Speaker 4: were also I think it just worked, you know, like

517
00:29:25,774 --> 00:29:27,934
Speaker 4: it just worked because it was beautiful and it was

518
00:29:27,974 --> 00:29:31,974
Speaker 4: an amazing location. And then they bought off the fire.

519
00:29:32,494 --> 00:29:35,014
Speaker 4: They bought this other piece of land which then went

520
00:29:35,054 --> 00:29:37,494
Speaker 4: on to become Ballerina Farm, and they were trying to

521
00:29:37,494 --> 00:29:39,774
Speaker 4: figure out a name, and her brother was there, who

522
00:29:39,854 --> 00:29:42,934
Speaker 4: was this entrepreneur, and he said, what about Ballerina Farm,

523
00:29:43,134 --> 00:29:47,454
Speaker 4: because obviously she had been a ballerina and that's what

524
00:29:47,494 --> 00:29:49,494
Speaker 4: it is. I thought that was.

525
00:29:49,534 --> 00:29:53,894
Speaker 1: Really interesting, Megan, because you know, you describe Daniel Neielman

526
00:29:54,014 --> 00:29:56,974
Speaker 1: as an all American stake of a husband, square jawed

527
00:29:57,174 --> 00:30:03,574
Speaker 1: Denham clad, you know, from this conservative Mormon family, and

528
00:30:03,654 --> 00:30:07,054
Speaker 1: in some ways the idea of calling your farm Ballerina

529
00:30:07,134 --> 00:30:12,014
Speaker 1: Farm could be seen to be quite emasculating or quite feminizing.

530
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:14,894
Speaker 1: But he was into it. Is that because he understood

531
00:30:14,894 --> 00:30:15,894
Speaker 1: the value of marketing.

532
00:30:16,774 --> 00:30:20,614
Speaker 4: I think there are two reasons. One is that Hannah

533
00:30:20,694 --> 00:30:24,454
Speaker 4: was the face, you know, and she's also the brains,

534
00:30:24,574 --> 00:30:26,494
Speaker 4: but she was the face of it. She's head of marketing.

535
00:30:26,894 --> 00:30:28,694
Speaker 1: When you say she's the brains, what do you mean.

536
00:30:29,214 --> 00:30:32,374
Speaker 4: She understands social media in a way that Daniel doesn't.

537
00:30:32,494 --> 00:30:35,374
Speaker 4: She understands it really thoroughly, and she understands what other

538
00:30:35,414 --> 00:30:39,454
Speaker 4: people are doing and what works, and she's very engaged

539
00:30:40,214 --> 00:30:42,014
Speaker 4: with it all. And she's the one who uploads all

540
00:30:42,014 --> 00:30:47,014
Speaker 4: the content. But Daniel is the one who makes from

541
00:30:47,094 --> 00:30:52,294
Speaker 4: what I understand the main business decisions. So I think

542
00:30:52,334 --> 00:30:54,654
Speaker 4: that he understood that the way that they were going

543
00:30:54,694 --> 00:30:57,974
Speaker 4: to sell it was through her. And the second reason

544
00:30:58,094 --> 00:31:00,334
Speaker 4: is I think that central to the brand is the

545
00:31:00,334 --> 00:31:02,854
Speaker 4: fact that she went to Juilliard and is the fact

546
00:31:02,894 --> 00:31:06,934
Speaker 4: that she no longer is a vallerina. You know, is

547
00:31:06,974 --> 00:31:12,534
Speaker 4: there a more worthy decision as super talented, qualified woman

548
00:31:12,974 --> 00:31:16,574
Speaker 4: than to choose looking after and bringing up your children.

549
00:31:17,094 --> 00:31:20,734
Speaker 1: So self sacrifice becomes part of the origin story as well.

550
00:31:21,214 --> 00:31:25,894
Speaker 4: And it always has been. Every bio, every interview is

551
00:31:26,134 --> 00:31:28,854
Speaker 4: absolutely central. The fact that she went to Juilliard and

552
00:31:28,894 --> 00:31:32,494
Speaker 4: then gave up is one hundred percent central to the

553
00:31:32,534 --> 00:31:33,454
Speaker 4: brand from the beginning.

554
00:31:34,174 --> 00:31:37,814
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know whether Daniel is an actual farmer

555
00:31:37,974 --> 00:31:40,054
Speaker 1: or is he just cause playing being a farmer.

556
00:31:40,974 --> 00:31:44,134
Speaker 4: Now he's an actual farmer. He's out on the farm

557
00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:48,254
Speaker 4: all the time, and he loves it. He absolutely loves it.

558
00:31:48,334 --> 00:31:51,334
Speaker 4: He loves all the animals, and he loves all the land,

559
00:31:51,374 --> 00:31:53,454
Speaker 4: and he loves all the stuff. He called himself an

560
00:31:53,494 --> 00:31:57,734
Speaker 4: agricultural missionary though, so not only is it about farming,

561
00:31:57,734 --> 00:32:01,454
Speaker 4: but it's about sharing the farming with other people and

562
00:32:01,614 --> 00:32:06,054
Speaker 4: encouraging people to start their own small farms and repopulate

563
00:32:06,094 --> 00:32:09,694
Speaker 4: America with these homesteads, which I did say to him,

564
00:32:10,094 --> 00:32:13,934
Speaker 4: that's financially impossible, though, how are you suggesting people do it?

565
00:32:13,974 --> 00:32:16,094
Speaker 4: And he was like, yeah, well, you know, social media

566
00:32:16,134 --> 00:32:18,934
Speaker 4: pays for all of our basically allows us to have

567
00:32:18,974 --> 00:32:21,494
Speaker 4: this farm, and it's a thing that allows us to

568
00:32:21,654 --> 00:32:23,654
Speaker 4: charge four times more for a pint of milk than

569
00:32:23,654 --> 00:32:24,454
Speaker 4: the farmer down.

570
00:32:24,254 --> 00:32:28,294
Speaker 1: The road or a steak, so it's not sustainable on

571
00:32:28,334 --> 00:32:32,054
Speaker 1: its own. The income, well, the revenue comes from social

572
00:32:32,694 --> 00:32:35,214
Speaker 1: and from her Instagram.

573
00:32:34,614 --> 00:32:37,734
Speaker 4: And it comes from being able to sell products mark

574
00:32:37,814 --> 00:32:42,014
Speaker 4: them by five times, four times more than if I

575
00:32:42,214 --> 00:32:44,054
Speaker 4: had a milk farm.

576
00:32:44,214 --> 00:32:47,054
Speaker 1: And you were just so much year old Jerry had.

577
00:32:46,894 --> 00:32:52,094
Speaker 4: A milk farm, And I said, like, you know, about

578
00:32:52,094 --> 00:32:55,334
Speaker 4: what if Jerry doesn't have a pageant queen wife and

579
00:32:56,014 --> 00:32:58,574
Speaker 4: eight beautiful children. And he was like, well, yeah, well,

580
00:32:58,614 --> 00:33:02,014
Speaker 4: you know, social media isn't for everyone. So he was

581
00:33:02,254 --> 00:33:06,974
Speaker 4: quite deluded if I'm big completely honest in like what

582
00:33:07,214 --> 00:33:10,774
Speaker 4: exactly he was promoting, because the thing that he was promoting,

583
00:33:11,214 --> 00:33:13,374
Speaker 4: that is impossible unless you're really hot.

584
00:33:14,294 --> 00:33:18,774
Speaker 1: Over the years that they have been, you know, working

585
00:33:18,814 --> 00:33:20,814
Speaker 1: under the brand Ballerina Farm and on that farm and

586
00:33:20,854 --> 00:33:24,694
Speaker 1: having all the babies are there's certain points where things

587
00:33:25,094 --> 00:33:28,694
Speaker 1: went viral and their their fame and their followers jumped.

588
00:33:29,174 --> 00:33:32,814
Speaker 4: The pageant definitely was because that was quite recently. The

589
00:33:32,854 --> 00:33:36,774
Speaker 4: pageant that was January of this year. Yeah, it was recent.

590
00:33:37,254 --> 00:33:39,774
Speaker 4: And then I don't know. There have definitely been these

591
00:33:39,814 --> 00:33:44,254
Speaker 4: controversies around her not looking after her children properly and

592
00:33:44,294 --> 00:33:48,534
Speaker 4: them running too wild or them abusing animals. She said

593
00:33:48,534 --> 00:33:52,254
Speaker 4: that she dropped kicked to cockrel across the farmyard because

594
00:33:52,294 --> 00:33:54,654
Speaker 4: it had packed one of her children and it drew blood.

595
00:33:54,854 --> 00:33:57,574
Speaker 4: So everyone was pretty hurt up about that. And then

596
00:33:57,614 --> 00:34:00,774
Speaker 4: I think COVID was the thing that really like propels

597
00:34:00,894 --> 00:34:03,574
Speaker 4: them upwards. And her recipes. She was making a lot

598
00:34:03,574 --> 00:34:07,174
Speaker 4: of sour dough and churning a lot of butter, and

599
00:34:07,254 --> 00:34:08,454
Speaker 4: so people went to have that.

600
00:34:08,774 --> 00:34:10,894
Speaker 9: And then we're going to fix the starter with the

601
00:34:10,974 --> 00:34:16,014
Speaker 9: water until it's completely dissolved and nase and milky. Then

602
00:34:16,014 --> 00:34:20,694
Speaker 9: we're gonna add our flour. We're gonna mix it together,

603
00:34:20,934 --> 00:34:22,934
Speaker 9: and then I just neat it with my hand because

604
00:34:22,934 --> 00:34:26,214
Speaker 9: I feel like that's the easiest until it's nice and smooth.

605
00:34:27,174 --> 00:34:29,734
Speaker 1: This idea of the tread wife in the case of

606
00:34:29,814 --> 00:34:33,894
Speaker 1: Narasmith and of Hannah, this obsession with building or making

607
00:34:33,934 --> 00:34:37,414
Speaker 1: things from scratch. Can you talk a little bit about that, because,

608
00:34:38,214 --> 00:34:40,254
Speaker 1: I mean, I know Narrosmith makes bubblegumy.

609
00:34:40,654 --> 00:34:43,494
Speaker 7: I poured some powdered sugar on some waxed paper and

610
00:34:43,734 --> 00:34:46,974
Speaker 7: created a well before combining my gumbass with some corn

611
00:34:47,054 --> 00:34:49,614
Speaker 7: syrup and slowly melting it down. And so that was

612
00:34:49,654 --> 00:34:52,334
Speaker 7: all melted. I gave it a good stir and poured

613
00:34:52,374 --> 00:34:55,414
Speaker 7: it into my little powdered sugar while as I created.

614
00:34:56,014 --> 00:34:58,814
Speaker 1: Just like it's almost a joke. Why don't you just

615
00:34:58,814 --> 00:35:00,454
Speaker 1: go and buy some butter? Why do you have to

616
00:35:00,534 --> 00:35:03,574
Speaker 1: make butter from scratch? Particularly when you have eight children?

617
00:35:04,094 --> 00:35:04,174
Speaker 6: Like?

618
00:35:04,214 --> 00:35:06,694
Speaker 1: What's that about? Is that just a weird flex or

619
00:35:06,734 --> 00:35:07,854
Speaker 1: it's an ideology.

620
00:35:08,374 --> 00:35:11,694
Speaker 4: I think the Narus thing is like more knowing, and

621
00:35:11,734 --> 00:35:13,774
Speaker 4: I think it's a bit more baiting people, and it's

622
00:35:13,854 --> 00:35:16,094
Speaker 4: quite silly, I hope.

623
00:35:16,774 --> 00:35:19,134
Speaker 1: But does Hannah do the same thing. I mean, they

624
00:35:19,174 --> 00:35:21,374
Speaker 1: don't have process food, they don't have ready made meals.

625
00:35:21,534 --> 00:35:23,814
Speaker 1: She does make it? Does she make everything from scratch?

626
00:35:24,174 --> 00:35:27,774
Speaker 4: Yeah? I said, do you never get like a cheeky pizza?

627
00:35:28,374 --> 00:35:31,374
Speaker 4: She's like no, no, no, we don't do ready meals. I

628
00:35:31,414 --> 00:35:35,734
Speaker 4: think more widely in the US, so much is processed

629
00:35:35,774 --> 00:35:38,814
Speaker 4: and so much comes from big farms in a way

630
00:35:38,894 --> 00:35:42,294
Speaker 4: that I wasn't actually ready for moving from the UK.

631
00:35:42,534 --> 00:35:47,894
Speaker 4: It's extraordinary how difficult it is to get good raw produce,

632
00:35:48,494 --> 00:35:53,374
Speaker 4: And so I think here there's a real desire to

633
00:35:53,414 --> 00:35:57,134
Speaker 4: see and then hopefully consume that sort of cooking and

634
00:35:57,174 --> 00:36:00,694
Speaker 4: that way of life. But I think, as we've touched

635
00:36:00,694 --> 00:36:03,454
Speaker 4: on a number of times, it's about this effortlessness, and

636
00:36:03,494 --> 00:36:07,774
Speaker 4: it's about providing, and it's about your role as a

637
00:36:07,814 --> 00:36:11,134
Speaker 4: woman to feed and nourish your children and your family

638
00:36:11,174 --> 00:36:14,014
Speaker 4: in a way that is healthy and not cheating.

639
00:36:14,854 --> 00:36:17,974
Speaker 1: That's what's interesting to me because there's the implied judgment

640
00:36:18,134 --> 00:36:22,574
Speaker 1: of cheating and when when she said to you, no,

641
00:36:22,694 --> 00:36:25,614
Speaker 1: we don't do that, We don't. We don't do ready meals.

642
00:36:27,094 --> 00:36:29,974
Speaker 1: I mean even bread, Like I wouldn't even consider bread

643
00:36:30,014 --> 00:36:32,054
Speaker 1: a ready meal. I would consider bread a staple, or

644
00:36:32,134 --> 00:36:37,334
Speaker 1: pasta or butter or cheese. It's it's everything from scratch.

645
00:36:38,534 --> 00:36:42,414
Speaker 1: Like why it's a really good question because it's kind

646
00:36:42,454 --> 00:36:44,214
Speaker 1: of saying I'm better than you, isn't it? Or am

647
00:36:44,214 --> 00:36:48,254
Speaker 1: I being defensive of my storeboard butter and bread.

648
00:36:49,814 --> 00:36:54,534
Speaker 4: I think in the way it is, Yes, I think

649
00:36:54,574 --> 00:36:57,014
Speaker 4: what she's saying is, this is how it's meant to be, right,

650
00:36:57,054 --> 00:36:59,254
Speaker 4: this is how family life is meant to be, and

651
00:36:59,294 --> 00:37:03,454
Speaker 4: it's about and it should be away from modernity in

652
00:37:03,494 --> 00:37:08,014
Speaker 4: some way and things that are not good for your children.

653
00:37:08,494 --> 00:37:12,574
Speaker 4: And that's it's so enshrined in Mormon teachings too, which

654
00:37:12,654 --> 00:37:17,214
Speaker 4: is this domesticity of the wife and also this performed

655
00:37:17,294 --> 00:37:20,374
Speaker 4: effortlessness of she can do it and she never complains,

656
00:37:21,094 --> 00:37:24,374
Speaker 4: and it's like the last ten years was kind of

657
00:37:24,454 --> 00:37:27,814
Speaker 4: missed on her. And I said, you know, how do

658
00:37:27,854 --> 00:37:30,174
Speaker 4: you feel about all the women who exactly feel like

659
00:37:30,374 --> 00:37:32,814
Speaker 4: this is judging in some way and are really angry

660
00:37:32,854 --> 00:37:36,174
Speaker 4: about that. And she completely missed the point of the

661
00:37:36,254 --> 00:37:39,214
Speaker 4: question and said, you know, I hope that what I'm

662
00:37:39,214 --> 00:37:42,414
Speaker 4: doing encourages women to see how lovely it is to

663
00:37:42,494 --> 00:37:45,934
Speaker 4: cook lovely males for your family. But that's kind of

664
00:37:46,014 --> 00:37:47,734
Speaker 4: not the point, because a lot of people don't have

665
00:37:47,774 --> 00:37:50,014
Speaker 4: time to do that. Most people don't.

666
00:37:51,054 --> 00:37:53,654
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the word privilege is sometimes I've used,

667
00:37:53,734 --> 00:37:58,774
Speaker 1: but this whole idea relies on women doing nothing or someone.

668
00:37:58,894 --> 00:38:00,534
Speaker 1: Of course, it could be a man, but it never is.

669
00:38:00,574 --> 00:38:04,294
Speaker 1: There an't tread husbands. Really, it relies on these very

670
00:38:04,814 --> 00:38:08,134
Speaker 1: you know, stereotypical gender roles, doesn't it, and like really

671
00:38:08,334 --> 00:38:12,054
Speaker 1: hardcore gender roles, because the woman is only the care

672
00:38:12,414 --> 00:38:15,374
Speaker 1: because preparing all that food, I don't even know how

673
00:38:15,414 --> 00:38:19,014
Speaker 1: she has time to look after the children. And that's where,

674
00:38:19,214 --> 00:38:23,014
Speaker 1: you know, the way social media condenses it and flattens

675
00:38:23,054 --> 00:38:25,494
Speaker 1: it in terms of oh, here I made the butter,

676
00:38:25,614 --> 00:38:28,214
Speaker 1: and I churned the butter, and it literally probably is

677
00:38:28,294 --> 00:38:31,534
Speaker 1: shown for two seconds, but that's something that would take

678
00:38:31,614 --> 00:38:32,214
Speaker 1: hours to do.

679
00:38:33,214 --> 00:38:37,894
Speaker 4: And it's also really boring. Again, you know, there's no

680
00:38:38,094 --> 00:38:42,534
Speaker 4: promotion here, like you know, this is eighteen no longer

681
00:38:42,574 --> 00:38:45,014
Speaker 4: than that. Who ever knows how many years is thirty

682
00:38:45,134 --> 00:38:51,014
Speaker 4: years straight of every day doing the bloody food. Yeah,

683
00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:53,734
Speaker 4: I just I know that some people enjoy it more

684
00:38:53,734 --> 00:38:57,094
Speaker 4: than others. But it's also siscotta get boring.

685
00:38:57,974 --> 00:39:02,694
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no acknowledgment. And you know, for her,

686
00:39:02,814 --> 00:39:06,294
Speaker 1: perhaps it isn't boring. But it's interesting what you said

687
00:39:06,334 --> 00:39:08,654
Speaker 1: in her blog, how she said I made a conscious

688
00:39:08,654 --> 00:39:11,494
Speaker 1: decision a sense not to complain, to see this as

689
00:39:11,534 --> 00:39:15,814
Speaker 1: a gift and a calling. And so it's the implication,

690
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,454
Speaker 1: even if she might not be doing it consciously, is

691
00:39:18,534 --> 00:39:20,574
Speaker 1: if you don't find this as rewarding as I do,

692
00:39:21,054 --> 00:39:24,654
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you and you're not a real woman.

693
00:39:25,414 --> 00:39:30,334
Speaker 4: I think that's why it's so controversial, why people get angry, right, Yeah,

694
00:39:31,134 --> 00:39:35,054
Speaker 4: and they have really strongly held believes about same sex

695
00:39:35,174 --> 00:39:38,454
Speaker 4: marriage and sex before marriage, and these have been really

696
00:39:38,574 --> 00:39:43,414
Speaker 4: really destructive. You know, a lot of these belief systems

697
00:39:43,454 --> 00:39:47,294
Speaker 4: have been really destructive, particularly towards women and around abortion

698
00:39:47,574 --> 00:39:52,374
Speaker 4: and rights over our bodies. And you know, part of that,

699
00:39:52,734 --> 00:39:55,694
Speaker 4: part of not having so many rights over our bodies

700
00:39:55,774 --> 00:39:58,574
Speaker 4: is that we have to continue to give up our

701
00:39:58,734 --> 00:40:02,334
Speaker 4: rights to our children to provide for them at the

702
00:40:02,414 --> 00:40:06,134
Speaker 4: expense of everything else, and the expense of time for yourself,

703
00:40:06,174 --> 00:40:09,454
Speaker 4: which is really important, so that you don't go in, say,

704
00:40:10,334 --> 00:40:13,694
Speaker 4: and so that you slightly remember where you're at to

705
00:40:13,734 --> 00:40:16,094
Speaker 4: collect your thoughts and all of these things. So, yeah,

706
00:40:16,174 --> 00:40:19,614
Speaker 4: it's complicated and it can be dangerous as well.

707
00:40:21,134 --> 00:40:24,654
Speaker 1: After this break, how did Megan actually convince the Nielmans

708
00:40:24,854 --> 00:40:27,214
Speaker 1: to give her so much access and let her into

709
00:40:27,254 --> 00:40:30,374
Speaker 1: their house? And once she actually gets to Bellerina Farm,

710
00:40:30,974 --> 00:40:33,414
Speaker 1: why is it so hard to get Hannah on her own.

711
00:40:34,254 --> 00:40:38,894
Speaker 1: The rest of our conversation coming up. Tell me about

712
00:40:38,894 --> 00:40:41,494
Speaker 1: the process of securing the interview. Was it easy to

713
00:40:41,534 --> 00:40:43,374
Speaker 1: get They dont do a huge number of interviews. I

714
00:40:43,414 --> 00:40:46,254
Speaker 1: mean The Times is obviously very prestigious, But what was

715
00:40:46,294 --> 00:40:48,854
Speaker 1: it like? There's always back and forth negotiating an interview

716
00:40:48,934 --> 00:40:50,974
Speaker 1: and access. How did that play?

717
00:40:51,054 --> 00:40:54,654
Speaker 4: That was my brilliant colleagues in London, my commissioning editor

718
00:40:54,814 --> 00:40:59,294
Speaker 4: at the magazine, who is so good at doing this.

719
00:41:00,294 --> 00:41:02,334
Speaker 4: But my understanding is that they were pretty keen.

720
00:41:03,454 --> 00:41:06,294
Speaker 1: Or expanding their market to the UK, so you can

721
00:41:06,374 --> 00:41:07,454
Speaker 1: see what was in it for them.

722
00:41:08,054 --> 00:41:11,534
Speaker 4: And they also love in and they were like constantly

723
00:41:11,574 --> 00:41:14,494
Speaker 4: asking me, like, you know, do we turn our agar

724
00:41:14,574 --> 00:41:18,814
Speaker 4: off in in the summer? I bet it's really beautiful.

725
00:41:18,814 --> 00:41:20,214
Speaker 4: Where do you live? What's it like? Like they were

726
00:41:20,374 --> 00:41:23,414
Speaker 4: so fetishistic about England and it was kind of an

727
00:41:23,494 --> 00:41:28,974
Speaker 4: interesting element actually to that form of really old fashioned countryside,

728
00:41:29,054 --> 00:41:32,774
Speaker 4: the domesticity that they want in habit. Like they were asking,

729
00:41:32,854 --> 00:41:35,454
Speaker 4: they were really desperate to hear in a way that

730
00:41:35,494 --> 00:41:38,174
Speaker 4: they were like taking notes and then they just said, come,

731
00:41:38,374 --> 00:41:40,694
Speaker 4: come for the day, Come for the day, and we'll

732
00:41:40,734 --> 00:41:43,534
Speaker 4: do the interview and you can see the farm, so

733
00:41:43,654 --> 00:41:45,014
Speaker 4: they were really open.

734
00:41:45,374 --> 00:41:47,494
Speaker 1: You'd say, in it all obviously on social media a lot,

735
00:41:47,574 --> 00:41:51,054
Speaker 1: as has anyone who's followed Bellerina Farm. When you actually

736
00:41:51,174 --> 00:41:53,294
Speaker 1: arrived on the farm, what does it look like?

737
00:41:54,334 --> 00:41:58,374
Speaker 4: It's I mean, it's quite near to this skiing town,

738
00:41:59,094 --> 00:42:02,814
Speaker 4: which is pretty like bougie. Actually they were like you know,

739
00:42:03,214 --> 00:42:05,974
Speaker 4: flashy cars and stuff, as about forty five minutes away,

740
00:42:06,094 --> 00:42:08,894
Speaker 4: so it's not miles away from anything, but it's really

741
00:42:09,014 --> 00:42:11,454
Speaker 4: out in in the sticks, and it's along this long

742
00:42:11,614 --> 00:42:14,374
Speaker 4: track off a main road, and it's sort of between

743
00:42:14,934 --> 00:42:17,854
Speaker 4: these water meadows which is where the cows graze, and

744
00:42:18,294 --> 00:42:22,014
Speaker 4: the more arid mountains which go sort of behind the farmhouse,

745
00:42:22,294 --> 00:42:24,374
Speaker 4: which is where they have their rodeo horses and they

746
00:42:24,414 --> 00:42:28,694
Speaker 4: have the pigs and the chickens, and it's really unbelievably beautiful,

747
00:42:28,894 --> 00:42:31,694
Speaker 4: like you just get your phone out and it looks

748
00:42:31,734 --> 00:42:35,534
Speaker 4: amazing on your phone and it's made for Instagram. But

749
00:42:35,654 --> 00:42:38,934
Speaker 4: it's also kind of scary. Like the day before when

750
00:42:38,974 --> 00:42:41,494
Speaker 4: I arrived, I just wanted to go for a drive

751
00:42:42,334 --> 00:42:44,214
Speaker 4: and I was driving along this really really really long

752
00:42:44,334 --> 00:42:47,614
Speaker 4: road and I was planning on doing this big loop

753
00:42:47,734 --> 00:42:50,454
Speaker 4: and I got about half an hour down this road

754
00:42:50,774 --> 00:42:54,094
Speaker 4: and I was like, there is nobody else here if

755
00:42:54,174 --> 00:42:57,694
Speaker 4: I break down or something happens. I just suddenly started

756
00:42:57,774 --> 00:43:01,574
Speaker 4: freaking out at the ruralness of it. And there's something

757
00:43:01,654 --> 00:43:05,414
Speaker 4: a bit scary about it. I mean, you live in Australia,

758
00:43:05,454 --> 00:43:07,694
Speaker 4: I'm sure you have had moments like that when you're.

759
00:43:07,574 --> 00:43:10,774
Speaker 1: Like, oh shit, this is actually really isolated.

760
00:43:11,214 --> 00:43:13,534
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then your brain goes a bit funny.

761
00:43:13,734 --> 00:43:15,494
Speaker 4: And I grew up in the countryside in the UK,

762
00:43:15,654 --> 00:43:18,214
Speaker 4: so I'm not, like, you know, a city girl through

763
00:43:18,254 --> 00:43:21,814
Speaker 4: and through. So there was this sense of like, oh, wow,

764
00:43:21,934 --> 00:43:23,294
Speaker 4: you're you're far away.

765
00:43:23,614 --> 00:43:26,134
Speaker 1: When you opened the door. When the door was opened

766
00:43:26,654 --> 00:43:30,254
Speaker 1: of the house and you met Daniel and Hannah, what

767
00:43:30,374 --> 00:43:31,374
Speaker 1: were your first impressions?

768
00:43:32,134 --> 00:43:38,374
Speaker 4: Really relaxed, The kids were everywhere. Daniel is actually very

769
00:43:38,534 --> 00:43:42,094
Speaker 4: hands on with the kids and like with the babies,

770
00:43:42,934 --> 00:43:45,974
Speaker 4: and it just looked exactly how it did on Instagram.

771
00:43:46,094 --> 00:43:49,054
Speaker 4: It was kind of chaotic and loose living. You know

772
00:43:49,134 --> 00:43:51,014
Speaker 4: that they're they're not in any way. I mean, I

773
00:43:51,054 --> 00:43:55,014
Speaker 4: don't think you can be uptight about like presentation of

774
00:43:55,334 --> 00:43:58,334
Speaker 4: the house. It was sort of like rough and tumble

775
00:43:58,454 --> 00:43:59,934
Speaker 4: and it looked great.

776
00:44:00,534 --> 00:44:02,214
Speaker 1: So like the kids with the kids all sort of

777
00:44:02,334 --> 00:44:06,974
Speaker 1: in coordinated outfits or share complimentary shades of neutral linen

778
00:44:07,774 --> 00:44:08,414
Speaker 1: pretty much.

779
00:44:08,534 --> 00:44:11,014
Speaker 4: But they were also like very and like had fruit

780
00:44:11,094 --> 00:44:14,054
Speaker 4: all over their pieces, and I think they just have

781
00:44:14,214 --> 00:44:16,774
Speaker 4: really good clothes. And it was good. I mean, the

782
00:44:16,934 --> 00:44:20,694
Speaker 4: interview was very much involving Daniel, much more than I

783
00:44:21,574 --> 00:44:25,854
Speaker 4: initially anticipated, particularly when it came to politics and religion

784
00:44:26,014 --> 00:44:29,454
Speaker 4: and trad wifeeness. He was the one who sort of

785
00:44:29,494 --> 00:44:30,694
Speaker 4: took the lead on those answers.

786
00:44:31,134 --> 00:44:34,254
Speaker 1: That's interesting, and it felt a little I know, you

787
00:44:34,374 --> 00:44:37,614
Speaker 1: were obviously very tried hard not to inject your opinion

788
00:44:37,694 --> 00:44:40,974
Speaker 1: into the story, and you reported it out very carefully

789
00:44:41,014 --> 00:44:44,014
Speaker 1: in in a balanced way, but it did come across

790
00:44:44,254 --> 00:44:47,934
Speaker 1: as controlling and a little ominous. His refusal to leave

791
00:44:47,974 --> 00:44:51,694
Speaker 1: you alone with her, it seemed like he was diverting

792
00:44:51,814 --> 00:44:55,614
Speaker 1: you away from being able to talk to her. Tell

793
00:44:55,654 --> 00:44:57,534
Speaker 1: me a bit about that, Is that how you felt.

794
00:44:57,934 --> 00:45:00,014
Speaker 4: I think it would be extreme to say that he

795
00:45:00,214 --> 00:45:05,894
Speaker 4: was like diverting or in any way possessive, but he was.

796
00:45:06,294 --> 00:45:10,574
Speaker 4: He's the master of the house. And I've spoken to

797
00:45:10,654 --> 00:45:13,574
Speaker 4: a lot of Mormon women since who've got in touch

798
00:45:13,654 --> 00:45:16,414
Speaker 4: with me to say that, which was very moving actually,

799
00:45:16,494 --> 00:45:18,854
Speaker 4: and meant a lot to say that it was an

800
00:45:19,014 --> 00:45:22,014
Speaker 4: accurate portrayal. They felt it to be an accurate portrayal

801
00:45:22,134 --> 00:45:24,814
Speaker 4: of the gender roles that they see in their own

802
00:45:24,894 --> 00:45:30,174
Speaker 4: lives and throughout their community. And in Mormonism, the men

803
00:45:30,454 --> 00:45:33,374
Speaker 4: have the priesthood. All of the men have the priesthood

804
00:45:33,454 --> 00:45:36,574
Speaker 4: after baptism, so they really are the ones who lead

805
00:45:36,854 --> 00:45:41,654
Speaker 4: the prayer and who are able to make authoritative comments

806
00:45:41,894 --> 00:45:45,494
Speaker 4: on cultural society and their community. And it's the women

807
00:45:45,534 --> 00:45:48,934
Speaker 4: who are the homemakers. And that added so much context

808
00:45:49,334 --> 00:45:51,894
Speaker 4: to why she looked to him when it was about

809
00:45:52,014 --> 00:45:54,974
Speaker 4: the bigger world, because it's the men who go out

810
00:45:55,054 --> 00:45:57,374
Speaker 4: into it. They do their missions, and then they return

811
00:45:57,534 --> 00:46:01,654
Speaker 4: and they're full of worldly knowledge. So that's what it

812
00:46:01,814 --> 00:46:05,174
Speaker 4: really reminded me of was that he is the one

813
00:46:05,254 --> 00:46:09,294
Speaker 4: who's right and has the important views on things, and

814
00:46:10,574 --> 00:46:13,854
Speaker 4: she is the one who looks after the children. So

815
00:46:13,934 --> 00:46:16,454
Speaker 4: I think him leading was more that rather than him

816
00:46:16,534 --> 00:46:16,974
Speaker 4: taking away.

817
00:46:17,814 --> 00:46:20,214
Speaker 1: Did they seem like equals? Yeah, I know they call

818
00:46:20,294 --> 00:46:23,734
Speaker 1: themselves co CEOs. Did they seem like equals? That is

819
00:46:23,854 --> 00:46:27,574
Speaker 1: really important context. What you say about it wasn't necessarily

820
00:46:27,654 --> 00:46:32,054
Speaker 1: a sinister thing or a dysfunctional thing in their relationship.

821
00:46:32,174 --> 00:46:36,614
Speaker 1: It's more just the strictures of Mormonism and how they

822
00:46:36,694 --> 00:46:39,854
Speaker 1: were both raised and those really hardcore gender roles.

823
00:46:40,414 --> 00:46:43,134
Speaker 4: Yes, in terms of the kids and looking after the kids,

824
00:46:43,454 --> 00:46:48,454
Speaker 4: he was way more involved than many other modern dads.

825
00:46:48,494 --> 00:46:50,534
Speaker 4: I would have thought, you know, the kids joined him

826
00:46:50,534 --> 00:46:50,894
Speaker 4: on the farm.

827
00:46:51,294 --> 00:46:52,894
Speaker 8: We have a lot of kids, so we have a

828
00:46:52,934 --> 00:46:57,334
Speaker 8: lot of responsibilities, and I take care of more of

829
00:46:57,374 --> 00:46:59,894
Speaker 8: the ranch side of things. Hannah takes care of more

830
00:47:00,054 --> 00:47:04,974
Speaker 8: the marketing. But we also share so many roles, especially

831
00:47:05,014 --> 00:47:08,014
Speaker 8: with parenting. When we're very fifty to fifty, Hannah does

832
00:47:08,134 --> 00:47:09,214
Speaker 8: more I do, as want.

833
00:47:09,134 --> 00:47:12,654
Speaker 9: To say, well, specially because the kids are homeschooled and

834
00:47:12,934 --> 00:47:14,374
Speaker 9: both of us are at home every day.

835
00:47:14,974 --> 00:47:18,214
Speaker 4: But his decision was the final one. Like we went

836
00:47:18,294 --> 00:47:20,894
Speaker 4: out to the barn and this new barn that they're

837
00:47:20,894 --> 00:47:24,174
Speaker 4: built and it's really beautiful's where the dairy cows are

838
00:47:24,214 --> 00:47:27,294
Speaker 4: going to go, and had built this platform in the

839
00:47:27,334 --> 00:47:32,414
Speaker 4: middle of it all, and I said, oh, why is

840
00:47:32,454 --> 00:47:35,814
Speaker 4: this here? And he was like, well, I want to

841
00:47:35,854 --> 00:47:38,574
Speaker 4: do tours. I want to do farm tours so that

842
00:47:38,614 --> 00:47:41,374
Speaker 4: I can show people the building. But Hannah doesn't want

843
00:47:41,414 --> 00:47:44,774
Speaker 4: to do them, and I kind of like looked down

844
00:47:44,934 --> 00:47:48,094
Speaker 4: and we were standing on the platform that he had

845
00:47:48,174 --> 00:47:51,774
Speaker 4: built to do the farm tours, and he was telling

846
00:47:51,854 --> 00:47:53,494
Speaker 4: me that they're not going to do them because Hannah

847
00:47:53,534 --> 00:47:56,654
Speaker 4: doesn't want to do them, And I just thought, I

848
00:47:56,734 --> 00:48:01,134
Speaker 4: think the decision might already have been made. Interesting, So

849
00:48:01,294 --> 00:48:05,054
Speaker 4: I think that they are equals and that they're they

850
00:48:05,134 --> 00:48:07,614
Speaker 4: both have different stakes in the same company. But I

851
00:48:07,734 --> 00:48:11,614
Speaker 4: think that from my entre actions with him and her,

852
00:48:12,054 --> 00:48:14,574
Speaker 4: he seemed to have the final say in it.

853
00:48:15,494 --> 00:48:19,294
Speaker 1: What are the practicalities of running a farm with eight

854
00:48:19,414 --> 00:48:23,374
Speaker 1: children that you have to prepare all their meals for? Like,

855
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:26,414
Speaker 1: they must have help. I know that she says that

856
00:48:26,494 --> 00:48:28,254
Speaker 1: they don't, But did you get the sense that the

857
00:48:28,334 --> 00:48:29,854
Speaker 1: help had been sent away for the day.

858
00:48:30,294 --> 00:48:32,094
Speaker 4: No, I don't think they want the help.

859
00:48:32,534 --> 00:48:35,214
Speaker 1: So who teaches the children? Because they're all homeschooled in the.

860
00:48:35,214 --> 00:48:37,774
Speaker 4: Barn, they have a teacher, So they have a Mormon

861
00:48:37,854 --> 00:48:40,014
Speaker 4: teacher from down the road who comes to school the kids.

862
00:48:40,054 --> 00:48:42,134
Speaker 1: But most of them. Most was how old are the kids?

863
00:48:42,254 --> 00:48:44,934
Speaker 1: Like they range in age from almost newborn to what

864
00:48:45,374 --> 00:48:49,654
Speaker 1: the eldest is thirty, right, So she's obviously preoccupied with

865
00:48:49,694 --> 00:48:52,334
Speaker 1: the little ones all through the day. And then when

866
00:48:52,334 --> 00:48:54,414
Speaker 1: they're not at school, all of them, I mean even

867
00:48:54,494 --> 00:48:57,934
Speaker 1: just the physicality of supervising them and making sure they

868
00:48:57,974 --> 00:49:00,134
Speaker 1: don't run off into a damn how do they even

869
00:49:00,214 --> 00:49:00,454
Speaker 1: do that?

870
00:49:01,134 --> 00:49:03,174
Speaker 4: Well, they kind of look after each other, the kids.

871
00:49:03,174 --> 00:49:05,254
Speaker 4: When the old ones look after the younger ones, it's

872
00:49:05,334 --> 00:49:09,414
Speaker 4: like now joined into a circle. And they're pretty wild,

873
00:49:09,654 --> 00:49:11,454
Speaker 4: like they do just go off and do their own thing,

874
00:49:12,054 --> 00:49:15,654
Speaker 4: which again, like that is a genuine fantasy, Like that

875
00:49:15,814 --> 00:49:18,854
Speaker 4: actually really worked and that is really real. And the

876
00:49:18,894 --> 00:49:21,094
Speaker 4: fact that the kids just like kind of run wild

877
00:49:21,174 --> 00:49:24,174
Speaker 4: and happy with it, and that's the core of why

878
00:49:24,254 --> 00:49:26,654
Speaker 4: people love it and want to watch it, because you think,

879
00:49:27,014 --> 00:49:29,254
Speaker 4: oh god, I need to check that my baby's not

880
00:49:29,294 --> 00:49:30,534
Speaker 4: picking up a cigarette butt.

881
00:49:30,814 --> 00:49:35,054
Speaker 1: Yeah, and instead of helicoptering, so they're not helicopter pearans.

882
00:49:35,534 --> 00:49:37,654
Speaker 4: No, but they don't have to be because they live there.

883
00:49:38,214 --> 00:49:41,734
Speaker 1: You had some brief time alone with her, and there

884
00:49:41,774 --> 00:49:43,454
Speaker 1: are a couple of things you asked her. You asked

885
00:49:43,454 --> 00:49:45,374
Speaker 1: her if this was what she always wanted? What did

886
00:49:45,454 --> 00:49:45,774
Speaker 1: she say?

887
00:49:46,734 --> 00:49:49,814
Speaker 4: She said, no, she was like, I wanted New York.

888
00:49:49,974 --> 00:49:53,294
Speaker 4: That was my dream. But as we said earlier, she

889
00:49:53,414 --> 00:49:57,654
Speaker 4: wants it now. Dreams changed her life now. I couldn't

890
00:49:57,734 --> 00:50:02,094
Speaker 4: believe that it's so extreme, that life, it's so extreme,

891
00:50:02,774 --> 00:50:05,254
Speaker 4: And I was really surprised actually when she said that

892
00:50:06,094 --> 00:50:08,494
Speaker 4: you start your pace like this.

893
00:50:08,694 --> 00:50:10,974
Speaker 1: Hannah Neiwlman was p ignant with her eighth child, and

894
00:50:11,094 --> 00:50:14,214
Speaker 1: she had two due dates. The first was for a baby, obviously,

895
00:50:14,334 --> 00:50:17,494
Speaker 1: the second, just under two weeks later, was for a

896
00:50:17,574 --> 00:50:22,334
Speaker 1: beauty pageant. Tell me about what you think was the

897
00:50:22,454 --> 00:50:23,974
Speaker 1: reason she entered that pageant.

898
00:50:25,054 --> 00:50:27,814
Speaker 4: I think that so much of this sort of femininity

899
00:50:28,374 --> 00:50:33,454
Speaker 4: is about performing ease and about making things look easy

900
00:50:34,014 --> 00:50:38,414
Speaker 4: and pleasant and nice. And I think that she knew

901
00:50:38,974 --> 00:50:41,334
Speaker 4: and thought that she could do it. She'd had seven

902
00:50:41,454 --> 00:50:45,574
Speaker 4: children before that, and it was in the diary. She

903
00:50:45,694 --> 00:50:49,374
Speaker 4: had this commitment, she had this duty, and I think

904
00:50:49,734 --> 00:50:54,014
Speaker 4: to her it was slightly unthinkable that she wouldn't do it.

905
00:50:54,814 --> 00:50:58,174
Speaker 1: She trained, and you wrote about her extensive preparation for

906
00:50:58,254 --> 00:51:01,294
Speaker 1: the pageant. It seemed to me to be a real

907
00:51:01,374 --> 00:51:05,014
Speaker 1: act of defiance doing that pageant and competing in Missus

908
00:51:05,094 --> 00:51:08,734
Speaker 1: World because she'd won the Missus America title. Is that

909
00:51:08,814 --> 00:51:10,614
Speaker 1: how it came across to you, where it was like,

910
00:51:11,294 --> 00:51:15,734
Speaker 1: I am determined to maintain my identity and do something

911
00:51:15,814 --> 00:51:17,654
Speaker 1: that's not about me being a wife and a mother.

912
00:51:18,454 --> 00:51:21,374
Speaker 4: That's such a good way of putting it, that there

913
00:51:21,574 --> 00:51:27,694
Speaker 4: was this determination in her. But I don't necessarily think

914
00:51:27,774 --> 00:51:29,854
Speaker 4: that it was about her detaching herself from being a

915
00:51:29,894 --> 00:51:32,294
Speaker 4: wife and a mother, because the pageant itself is about

916
00:51:32,294 --> 00:51:35,534
Speaker 4: being a wife and a mother. Missus American is about

917
00:51:35,574 --> 00:51:38,414
Speaker 4: being a wife, and they talk about their children and

918
00:51:39,174 --> 00:51:41,854
Speaker 4: it's part of that brand. So I think it was

919
00:51:42,174 --> 00:51:45,814
Speaker 4: a defiance in showing people she could do it. But

920
00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:48,174
Speaker 4: I think it was a defiance in showing people she

921
00:51:48,214 --> 00:51:51,934
Speaker 4: could do it with children and with a husband, and

922
00:51:52,454 --> 00:51:57,574
Speaker 4: while remaining modest, wearing her garments and wearing her you know,

923
00:51:58,014 --> 00:52:00,774
Speaker 4: the modesty clothing that she's required to from her religion.

924
00:52:01,254 --> 00:52:04,334
Speaker 1: Well, the pageant itself isn't. I mean, I hate the

925
00:52:04,774 --> 00:52:07,534
Speaker 1: modest because it kind of implies that people who don't

926
00:52:07,614 --> 00:52:10,734
Speaker 1: dress like that are immodest. But you know, I noticed

927
00:52:11,134 --> 00:52:14,974
Speaker 1: just this week or last week, she reposted some footage

928
00:52:14,974 --> 00:52:16,694
Speaker 1: of her and it was in a tight dress from

929
00:52:16,734 --> 00:52:19,934
Speaker 1: the pageant. Tight dress. It wasn't the Missus World, it

930
00:52:20,054 --> 00:52:24,294
Speaker 1: was I think the Missus America. And she wrote a

931
00:52:24,454 --> 00:52:26,974
Speaker 1: night I will never forget. This year has flown by

932
00:52:27,094 --> 00:52:29,574
Speaker 1: heading to Las Vegas next week to crown my successor.

933
00:52:30,334 --> 00:52:33,614
Speaker 1: I was twenty weeks pregnant with Miss Flora Joe during

934
00:52:33,694 --> 00:52:36,894
Speaker 1: this pageant, and I thought that last line was so

935
00:52:37,094 --> 00:52:39,534
Speaker 1: telling because she's in a swimsuit, she doesn't look like

936
00:52:39,574 --> 00:52:41,454
Speaker 1: she's pregnant at all, and this is I think her

937
00:52:42,094 --> 00:52:45,614
Speaker 1: seventh or eighth child. And to me, you know, there's

938
00:52:45,614 --> 00:52:47,654
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about body image and ballerinas and

939
00:52:48,854 --> 00:52:51,094
Speaker 1: weight and all of those kinds of things and the

940
00:52:51,774 --> 00:52:55,894
Speaker 1: very strict structures and confines that women who are ballerinas

941
00:52:55,974 --> 00:53:00,294
Speaker 1: have to live within. But it seemed very important to

942
00:53:00,374 --> 00:53:03,254
Speaker 1: her that she didn't look pregnant and to be saying,

943
00:53:03,614 --> 00:53:08,014
Speaker 1: look how skinny I am, Look how unpregnant I am.

944
00:53:08,134 --> 00:53:10,614
Speaker 1: And it was again as if that was a flex

945
00:53:10,774 --> 00:53:13,494
Speaker 1: and as if that was an achievement. That she was

946
00:53:13,574 --> 00:53:15,894
Speaker 1: in a swim suit, competing in a pageant with high

947
00:53:15,934 --> 00:53:19,054
Speaker 1: heels makeup and she won, and yet she was twenty

948
00:53:19,094 --> 00:53:22,734
Speaker 1: weeks pregnant. What did you get any sense of sort

949
00:53:22,734 --> 00:53:24,894
Speaker 1: of body issues for her? And this because one of

950
00:53:24,934 --> 00:53:26,734
Speaker 1: the things that the Internet's obsessed with is how skinny

951
00:53:26,774 --> 00:53:29,334
Speaker 1: she is despite having eight children. Yeah, you know, she

952
00:53:29,454 --> 00:53:32,454
Speaker 1: bounces back. She got back in that twelve days after postpartum.

953
00:53:32,574 --> 00:53:35,734
Speaker 1: She was back in that you know, tight dress, walking

954
00:53:35,814 --> 00:53:36,934
Speaker 1: in high heels.

955
00:53:37,094 --> 00:53:39,414
Speaker 4: And she works out hard. She goes to the gem

956
00:53:39,494 --> 00:53:40,054
Speaker 4: every morning.

957
00:53:40,574 --> 00:53:42,614
Speaker 1: It's like that a razure of effort as well, isn't it.

958
00:53:42,654 --> 00:53:44,654
Speaker 1: It's this demand that I've had eight children, but you

959
00:53:44,694 --> 00:53:46,654
Speaker 1: will see no sign of any of it on my body.

960
00:53:47,374 --> 00:53:50,974
Speaker 4: And in Mormonism again, how you look after your body

961
00:53:51,254 --> 00:53:54,374
Speaker 4: is a reflection of how you attending to your soul.

962
00:53:55,214 --> 00:53:57,294
Speaker 4: So that's why so many Mormon women, I don't know

963
00:53:57,334 --> 00:54:00,334
Speaker 4: if you're watching this Mormon Wives thing on Hulu, are

964
00:54:00,454 --> 00:54:03,334
Speaker 4: so beautiful because it's they see it as being a

965
00:54:03,374 --> 00:54:07,214
Speaker 4: reflection on your goodness, your spiritual goodness.

966
00:54:07,334 --> 00:54:11,494
Speaker 1: Is it the same for men? Them looking hot also

967
00:54:11,974 --> 00:54:15,694
Speaker 1: a reflection of their spiritual goodness? Probably not. It's probably

968
00:54:15,814 --> 00:54:18,534
Speaker 1: about how hard they work, right, That's probably the reflection

969
00:54:18,654 --> 00:54:19,854
Speaker 1: of their spiritual.

970
00:54:19,414 --> 00:54:21,254
Speaker 4: Goodness, right, and how much money they're making.

971
00:54:21,374 --> 00:54:23,374
Speaker 1: And for women, it's how many children they have and

972
00:54:23,454 --> 00:54:24,374
Speaker 1: how they look.

973
00:54:24,854 --> 00:54:27,254
Speaker 4: And how effortless you make it look. Wow. So I

974
00:54:27,454 --> 00:54:30,334
Speaker 4: was expecting, like, it's funny that you say, like she

975
00:54:30,494 --> 00:54:31,734
Speaker 4: was kind of like, look at me, look at me.

976
00:54:31,974 --> 00:54:34,774
Speaker 4: I was expecting so much more of that metal, and

977
00:54:35,134 --> 00:54:38,854
Speaker 4: she'd had so much backlash, and she continued to do

978
00:54:39,014 --> 00:54:41,254
Speaker 4: it and still does. I thought, oh, this is going

979
00:54:41,334 --> 00:54:43,134
Speaker 4: to be a woman who's like kind of doing a

980
00:54:43,214 --> 00:54:46,334
Speaker 4: bit of an f you, who knows exactly what it's

981
00:54:46,374 --> 00:54:48,974
Speaker 4: all about and exactly what she's saying and exactly what

982
00:54:49,094 --> 00:54:52,814
Speaker 4: the other argument was. But what I found was actually

983
00:54:52,854 --> 00:54:55,454
Speaker 4: a woman who just said, well, I just wanted to

984
00:54:55,534 --> 00:54:57,814
Speaker 4: do it, and I like doing it, and so why

985
00:54:57,854 --> 00:55:01,134
Speaker 4: wouldn't I post about being twenty weeks pregnant, being pregnant,

986
00:55:01,294 --> 00:55:03,814
Speaker 4: beautiful thing, and blah blah blah, And that I didn't

987
00:55:03,854 --> 00:55:06,254
Speaker 4: find that deceitful. I didn't think that she was doing

988
00:55:06,294 --> 00:55:07,854
Speaker 4: that in a deceitful way.

989
00:55:08,294 --> 00:55:10,454
Speaker 1: Sort of guileless a little bit, though, isn't it. It's

990
00:55:10,534 --> 00:55:13,774
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, look, I'm twenty weeks pregnant.

991
00:55:14,414 --> 00:55:16,814
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and she's tiny, she's like a little

992
00:55:16,974 --> 00:55:18,934
Speaker 4: like she's a vallerina. Yeah.

993
00:55:18,974 --> 00:55:21,134
Speaker 1: So it's again that there's no sign of effort. There's

994
00:55:21,174 --> 00:55:23,174
Speaker 1: no I work out, I'll go and dip in the

995
00:55:23,294 --> 00:55:26,254
Speaker 1: dam while I'm nine months pregnant so that I can

996
00:55:26,294 --> 00:55:29,294
Speaker 1: bounce back and get into this pageant and really punish

997
00:55:29,414 --> 00:55:32,894
Speaker 1: myself and torture my body and arraise all sign of effort.

998
00:55:33,374 --> 00:55:35,134
Speaker 1: Like in everywhere else in her life, it's all about

999
00:55:35,374 --> 00:55:39,654
Speaker 1: it being effortless. Do you think that's why Ballerina farm particularly,

1000
00:55:39,734 --> 00:55:43,134
Speaker 1: but treadwives in general make so many women angry?

1001
00:55:43,494 --> 00:55:45,854
Speaker 4: Yeah? And I also think that we see it as

1002
00:55:45,894 --> 00:55:49,094
Speaker 4: being a judgment on our own lives and our own decisions,

1003
00:55:49,294 --> 00:55:56,694
Speaker 4: So we project things onto what they're posting, and we

1004
00:55:57,094 --> 00:56:00,774
Speaker 4: politicize it in a way that we're already angry about.

1005
00:56:01,414 --> 00:56:04,214
Speaker 4: And I think it's really frightening. It's really, really, really

1006
00:56:04,334 --> 00:56:07,094
Speaker 4: scary to see that because you think, oh God, don't

1007
00:56:07,134 --> 00:56:09,334
Speaker 4: make me, please, don't make me go there. I really

1008
00:56:09,374 --> 00:56:11,214
Speaker 4: don't want men to think that this is the way

1009
00:56:11,454 --> 00:56:13,614
Speaker 4: it has to be. I really don't want men to

1010
00:56:13,654 --> 00:56:15,214
Speaker 4: think that this is how I should be. And I'm

1011
00:56:15,254 --> 00:56:17,854
Speaker 4: failing if I'm not, and other women, please don't. I

1012
00:56:17,894 --> 00:56:18,694
Speaker 4: don't want to go back.

1013
00:56:19,214 --> 00:56:21,814
Speaker 1: It feels like propaganda, doesn't it for a time when

1014
00:56:21,894 --> 00:56:24,494
Speaker 1: women had no rights and no choices.

1015
00:56:24,654 --> 00:56:26,414
Speaker 4: And particularly when you see it coming up on your

1016
00:56:26,454 --> 00:56:29,934
Speaker 4: Instagram discover. You know, before I started researching all of this,

1017
00:56:30,054 --> 00:56:31,654
Speaker 4: it was coming up on my page and I was

1018
00:56:31,734 --> 00:56:36,054
Speaker 4: like why, and all these Catholic influences telling me how

1019
00:56:36,054 --> 00:56:38,694
Speaker 4: I should be dressing for church on a Sunday, Like,

1020
00:56:38,814 --> 00:56:41,814
Speaker 4: God knows how they found their way onto my Instagram.

1021
00:56:42,534 --> 00:56:45,454
Speaker 1: It's that radicalization, isn't it? Like the algorithm will do.

1022
00:56:46,054 --> 00:56:48,614
Speaker 1: But in the article you wrote, you pose a question

1023
00:56:48,774 --> 00:56:52,094
Speaker 1: in the subtitle, is it's an empowering new model of

1024
00:56:52,174 --> 00:56:56,094
Speaker 1: womanhood or a hammer blow for feminism? Did you have

1025
00:56:56,214 --> 00:56:58,094
Speaker 1: a view on this before you arrived and was it

1026
00:56:58,214 --> 00:57:01,094
Speaker 1: different after you'd spent time with Hannah and Daniel.

1027
00:57:02,054 --> 00:57:04,854
Speaker 4: I had had so many conversations with lots of different

1028
00:57:05,054 --> 00:57:08,534
Speaker 4: people before I went, because I don't have children, and

1029
00:57:08,654 --> 00:57:12,254
Speaker 4: because I don't live a life anywhere like that, So

1030
00:57:12,494 --> 00:57:15,494
Speaker 4: I didn't feel like I had anything written in my head.

1031
00:57:15,534 --> 00:57:18,734
Speaker 4: Because a lot of mothers who had spoken to loved

1032
00:57:18,774 --> 00:57:21,894
Speaker 4: her and were really respectful of the life that she'd chosen.

1033
00:57:23,934 --> 00:57:26,734
Speaker 4: And I'm also trained as a journalist to walk in

1034
00:57:26,894 --> 00:57:31,414
Speaker 4: somewhere and not have a preconceived understanding as much as

1035
00:57:31,494 --> 00:57:34,894
Speaker 4: I can do, having seen all of her life on Instagram,

1036
00:57:35,574 --> 00:57:37,294
Speaker 4: and I really didn't know what to expect. And I

1037
00:57:37,494 --> 00:57:40,014
Speaker 4: was surprised, as I said, like I was expecting to

1038
00:57:40,094 --> 00:57:43,494
Speaker 4: find someone who was more sort of steadfast in her views,

1039
00:57:43,614 --> 00:57:46,734
Speaker 4: and I left sort of feeling like whoa, Okay, I

1040
00:57:46,854 --> 00:57:49,854
Speaker 4: thought I was going to be interviewing her. And there

1041
00:57:49,894 --> 00:57:51,254
Speaker 4: was a point in the day that I was really

1042
00:57:51,414 --> 00:57:54,134
Speaker 4: stressed because I was like, she's going to have to

1043
00:57:54,214 --> 00:57:56,014
Speaker 4: go and drop these kids off at ballet and I

1044
00:57:56,094 --> 00:57:58,814
Speaker 4: haven't asked her the questions that I need to. Yeah,

1045
00:57:59,054 --> 00:58:00,894
Speaker 4: clocks ticking, and my head's going to ask me like,

1046
00:58:00,934 --> 00:58:02,414
Speaker 4: why didn't you ask her this? Why didn't you ask

1047
00:58:02,454 --> 00:58:06,814
Speaker 4: her this? So that was kind of stressful, and I

1048
00:58:06,934 --> 00:58:09,174
Speaker 4: left like just trying to work it out, and then

1049
00:58:09,214 --> 00:58:11,734
Speaker 4: I went for lunch actually with a friend when I

1050
00:58:11,774 --> 00:58:15,334
Speaker 4: got back here on the weekend, and I like blooded

1051
00:58:15,414 --> 00:58:18,414
Speaker 4: it all out. Everything happened and in the midst of

1052
00:58:18,534 --> 00:58:22,534
Speaker 4: like this huge storm and virality. Afterwards, she called me

1053
00:58:22,614 --> 00:58:25,694
Speaker 4: and she was like, you know, everything that you wrote

1054
00:58:25,814 --> 00:58:30,014
Speaker 4: was exactly what we spoke about that day. So I

1055
00:58:30,054 --> 00:58:31,654
Speaker 4: don't think that I did go in and I think

1056
00:58:31,694 --> 00:58:34,974
Speaker 4: I was. It was unexpected anyway. What was the reaction

1057
00:58:36,414 --> 00:58:43,494
Speaker 4: binary people thinking that it was an effective piece of journalism,

1058
00:58:44,414 --> 00:58:46,374
Speaker 4: As I said, those Mormon women who said that it

1059
00:58:46,494 --> 00:58:49,534
Speaker 4: was an accurate representation of their lifestyles and how they've

1060
00:58:49,574 --> 00:58:52,574
Speaker 4: been feeling about gender roles, and then other people saying

1061
00:58:52,654 --> 00:58:55,134
Speaker 4: that I had no right to walk in there and

1062
00:58:55,334 --> 00:58:58,974
Speaker 4: judge her, which I don't think that I did, and

1063
00:58:59,414 --> 00:59:02,494
Speaker 4: that I know nothing because I'm childless, and that I

1064
00:59:02,574 --> 00:59:05,374
Speaker 4: should get out of other women's lives. There were other

1065
00:59:05,414 --> 00:59:08,254
Speaker 4: people who wanted to like, thought that I was endangering

1066
00:59:08,334 --> 00:59:10,654
Speaker 4: her in some way. I mean, there were just the

1067
00:59:10,734 --> 00:59:15,854
Speaker 4: whole huge remit of response, but it was like so passionate.

1068
00:59:15,934 --> 00:59:19,534
Speaker 4: People are so moved by her because it's a comment

1069
00:59:19,654 --> 00:59:23,134
Speaker 4: on our our most intimate personal decisions and how we

1070
00:59:23,254 --> 00:59:25,014
Speaker 4: choose to live and how we choose to bring other

1071
00:59:25,054 --> 00:59:29,054
Speaker 4: people into the world, also colored by our own experiences

1072
00:59:29,094 --> 00:59:33,094
Speaker 4: of parenthood being parented ourselves. So it's really it goes

1073
00:59:33,134 --> 00:59:35,014
Speaker 4: really deep. I think the people who.

1074
00:59:34,974 --> 00:59:36,494
Speaker 1: Love her, why do they love her? Do you think

1075
00:59:36,854 --> 00:59:39,254
Speaker 1: and is there a common thread between those people? Is

1076
00:59:39,294 --> 00:59:43,574
Speaker 1: it mostly kind of Trump voters, conservative women?

1077
00:59:43,934 --> 00:59:46,454
Speaker 4: Well, there are lots of people who are really bad

1078
00:59:46,494 --> 00:59:49,054
Speaker 4: who love her, Like the mothers who love her. I

1079
00:59:49,134 --> 00:59:52,694
Speaker 4: think they love her for allowing them to talk about

1080
00:59:52,734 --> 00:59:55,214
Speaker 4: how much they love motherhood and to not feel like

1081
00:59:55,294 --> 00:59:58,894
Speaker 4: a failure for not choosing like monetary work outside of

1082
00:59:58,974 --> 01:00:01,894
Speaker 4: the home, and I think that they've felt like they're

1083
01:00:01,934 --> 01:00:03,734
Speaker 4: not allowed to do that anymore, and that she allows

1084
01:00:03,774 --> 01:00:04,014
Speaker 4: them to.

1085
01:00:04,054 --> 01:00:06,774
Speaker 1: Do that even though she does. Right, that's the irony.

1086
01:00:06,934 --> 01:00:10,614
Speaker 1: It's very meta because by performing all of them, she's

1087
01:00:10,654 --> 01:00:13,214
Speaker 1: a businesswoman, she's an entrepreneur, she's a co CEO of

1088
01:00:13,334 --> 01:00:13,854
Speaker 1: a company.

1089
01:00:14,374 --> 01:00:16,294
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and she's got a full time job.

1090
01:00:17,014 --> 01:00:19,094
Speaker 1: When does she make the content? Does she make it herself?

1091
01:00:19,334 --> 01:00:21,454
Speaker 4: Yeah? She makes it herself throughout the day and then

1092
01:00:21,494 --> 01:00:23,334
Speaker 4: she uploads it once the kids have gone to bed.

1093
01:00:23,374 --> 01:00:24,654
Speaker 4: From like one I am till two.

1094
01:00:26,094 --> 01:00:29,294
Speaker 1: And there was a kind of bizarre, almost offhand moment

1095
01:00:29,414 --> 01:00:32,974
Speaker 1: where Daniel revealed to you that sometimes Hannah gets so

1096
01:00:33,214 --> 01:00:36,054
Speaker 1: exhausted that she's literally bedridden for a week.

1097
01:00:36,494 --> 01:00:38,174
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, he said that to me when we were

1098
01:00:38,214 --> 01:00:40,454
Speaker 4: on the ute going around the farm, that you know,

1099
01:00:40,574 --> 01:00:42,054
Speaker 4: she ties herself out.

1100
01:00:42,494 --> 01:00:44,734
Speaker 1: Did he seem to think that was a problem or

1101
01:00:45,134 --> 01:00:46,814
Speaker 1: it was just life on the phone with eight kids?

1102
01:00:46,854 --> 01:00:49,334
Speaker 4: I mean it was said in a way that was

1103
01:00:49,454 --> 01:00:53,574
Speaker 4: like like she needs to learn. I don't want to

1104
01:00:53,574 --> 01:00:55,654
Speaker 4: I don't want to read too much into like the tone,

1105
01:00:55,814 --> 01:00:58,854
Speaker 4: but how I interpreted the tone was like she needs

1106
01:00:58,894 --> 01:01:01,054
Speaker 4: to land to slow down sometimes.

1107
01:01:01,614 --> 01:01:03,814
Speaker 1: Maybe by a stick of banner instead of churning it

1108
01:01:04,214 --> 01:01:04,974
Speaker 1: once in a while.

1109
01:01:08,414 --> 01:01:09,934
Speaker 4: That's how I hed it.

1110
01:01:10,214 --> 01:01:12,014
Speaker 1: Do you know how they felt about the piece?

1111
01:01:12,534 --> 01:01:15,014
Speaker 4: I don't think that they were thrilled. I didn't hear

1112
01:01:15,094 --> 01:01:16,294
Speaker 4: from them directly.

1113
01:01:17,774 --> 01:01:18,334
Speaker 6: I know that.

1114
01:01:20,054 --> 01:01:25,294
Speaker 4: There was some communication, but it was an honest piece

1115
01:01:25,574 --> 01:01:30,654
Speaker 4: against my transcripts. You can check my recorded audio, you know,

1116
01:01:30,854 --> 01:01:34,294
Speaker 4: next to the piece, and it's a true representation of

1117
01:01:34,374 --> 01:01:35,414
Speaker 4: what I saw and heard.

1118
01:01:35,934 --> 01:01:36,894
Speaker 7: So that was that.

1119
01:01:37,974 --> 01:01:40,254
Speaker 4: And I was getting these masters like you're being sued,

1120
01:01:40,414 --> 01:01:44,174
Speaker 4: and I was like, I don't think we are. I

1121
01:01:44,294 --> 01:01:46,534
Speaker 4: think i'd know that. So there wasn't any I mean,

1122
01:01:46,574 --> 01:01:47,854
Speaker 4: it was it was as I say, it was a

1123
01:01:47,894 --> 01:01:50,334
Speaker 4: true representation of what I experienced. So there was nothing

1124
01:01:50,374 --> 01:01:51,694
Speaker 4: that much that could be done.

1125
01:01:52,014 --> 01:01:53,534
Speaker 1: Last question, do you think she's happy?

1126
01:01:54,454 --> 01:01:58,454
Speaker 4: I think that she has grown up in a community

1127
01:01:59,294 --> 01:02:04,054
Speaker 4: and a world which doesn't allow her to be connected

1128
01:02:04,574 --> 01:02:06,774
Speaker 4: to the question, Am I happy?

1129
01:02:10,574 --> 01:02:14,214
Speaker 1: I would love to hear Hannah Nielman interviewed on our podcast,

1130
01:02:14,854 --> 01:02:16,814
Speaker 1: But are you happy? I wonder if she is happy?

1131
01:02:17,454 --> 01:02:20,174
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's not fair to suggest that

1132
01:02:20,254 --> 01:02:24,254
Speaker 1: she's not. If she says she's happy, maybe she is happy.

1133
01:02:24,894 --> 01:02:27,614
Speaker 1: But I think that question sums up so much of

1134
01:02:27,974 --> 01:02:31,254
Speaker 1: why we're fascinated by the whole tradwife thing, because on

1135
01:02:31,374 --> 01:02:35,454
Speaker 1: one hand, it is kind of alluring. Right, life is exhausting,

1136
01:02:36,014 --> 01:02:41,854
Speaker 1: and ambition and career and cities can be exhausting, and

1137
01:02:42,014 --> 01:02:45,174
Speaker 1: we do live in a culture that centers grind and

1138
01:02:45,294 --> 01:02:48,374
Speaker 1: hustle and sort of idolizes it. And there is some

1139
01:02:48,534 --> 01:02:51,494
Speaker 1: legitimate pushback to that, and I think that is valuable

1140
01:02:51,614 --> 01:02:56,774
Speaker 1: cultural criticism. But look, let's be honest, what the tradwives

1141
01:02:57,254 --> 01:03:02,734
Speaker 1: are selling is a little bit dubious because it's not easy.

1142
01:03:02,814 --> 01:03:06,054
Speaker 1: They make it look easy, but parenting eight kids living

1143
01:03:06,094 --> 01:03:10,734
Speaker 1: on a farm making meals from scratch, that's no easier

1144
01:03:11,414 --> 01:03:14,774
Speaker 1: than working at a job in a city, is it.

1145
01:03:14,974 --> 01:03:18,774
Speaker 1: I mean, it might make her happier, but it's certainly

1146
01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:23,054
Speaker 1: not easier because how Donyoman is working hard man so

1147
01:03:23,334 --> 01:03:26,254
Speaker 1: hard that she sometimes can't get out of bed for

1148
01:03:26,374 --> 01:03:29,174
Speaker 1: a week. And I can't stop thinking about that, because

1149
01:03:29,334 --> 01:03:32,214
Speaker 1: when she's in bed for a week, who does milk

1150
01:03:32,254 --> 01:03:35,894
Speaker 1: the cows? And how does Daniel look after the eight

1151
01:03:36,014 --> 01:03:38,894
Speaker 1: kids and make all the meals from scratch and do

1152
01:03:39,054 --> 01:03:42,054
Speaker 1: all the other things that he has to do? You

1153
01:03:42,134 --> 01:03:45,214
Speaker 1: don't see that exhaustion anywhere on her Instagram. She doesn't

1154
01:03:45,294 --> 01:03:48,374
Speaker 1: mention when she's just had to take a week out

1155
01:03:48,654 --> 01:03:51,974
Speaker 1: to be unconscious in bed, because I guess that exhaustion

1156
01:03:52,094 --> 01:03:56,174
Speaker 1: doesn't sell products or gain you followers, or convince other

1157
01:03:56,254 --> 01:04:00,774
Speaker 1: women to buy your stuff or to try treadwifing for themselves.

1158
01:04:01,694 --> 01:04:04,494
Speaker 1: And look, I'm all for doing what we can to

1159
01:04:04,614 --> 01:04:09,014
Speaker 1: make ourselves happy and simplify our lives and connect with nature.

1160
01:04:09,254 --> 01:04:12,374
Speaker 1: If nature is your jam, it's not really my jam.

1161
01:04:13,014 --> 01:04:16,014
Speaker 1: I do like cows, but I don't think i'd want

1162
01:04:16,054 --> 01:04:19,334
Speaker 1: to like live with them. I'm all for women living

1163
01:04:19,374 --> 01:04:22,134
Speaker 1: their lives exactly how they want. And I don't judge

1164
01:04:22,454 --> 01:04:24,374
Speaker 1: what Hannah and the other childe wives are doing. I

1165
01:04:24,494 --> 01:04:28,214
Speaker 1: judge kind of the idea of them selling a lifestyle

1166
01:04:28,374 --> 01:04:32,734
Speaker 1: that they make look one way and don't show what

1167
01:04:32,894 --> 01:04:36,614
Speaker 1: it's actually like. And in America right now, there's a

1168
01:04:36,694 --> 01:04:39,694
Speaker 1: sort of an underpinning to all of this, as Megan said,

1169
01:04:39,894 --> 01:04:45,294
Speaker 1: about this strong conservative religious underpinning of a woman's place

1170
01:04:45,934 --> 01:04:48,174
Speaker 1: and this idea of I think the reason it makes

1171
01:04:48,174 --> 01:04:51,134
Speaker 1: so many women crazy is that this is where we

1172
01:04:51,294 --> 01:04:54,734
Speaker 1: came from, this expectation that we should look beautiful and

1173
01:04:54,934 --> 01:04:57,494
Speaker 1: raise all our children and never complain and make all

1174
01:04:57,534 --> 01:05:00,054
Speaker 1: the meals from scratch and be really fulfilled by that.

1175
01:05:00,174 --> 01:05:02,774
Speaker 1: And it's not to say that some women aren't, but

1176
01:05:02,974 --> 01:05:07,094
Speaker 1: not all women are. In fact, most women probably aren't.

1177
01:05:08,174 --> 01:05:10,774
Speaker 1: So yeah, this is something that we are really looking

1178
01:05:10,894 --> 01:05:14,414
Speaker 1: at closely on No Filter, this whole trade wife phenomenon,

1179
01:05:14,534 --> 01:05:18,574
Speaker 1: because the steaks are really high, and you know, for

1180
01:05:18,694 --> 01:05:20,294
Speaker 1: some people it might just be a little bit like

1181
01:05:20,374 --> 01:05:23,054
Speaker 1: watching a cooking show when you don't cook, it's kind

1182
01:05:23,094 --> 01:05:25,774
Speaker 1: of soothing. I've got lots of friends who watch tradwrife

1183
01:05:25,814 --> 01:05:29,694
Speaker 1: content like that just kind of to escape in the

1184
01:05:29,734 --> 01:05:32,734
Speaker 1: same way that I watch maybe fashion videos about street

1185
01:05:32,774 --> 01:05:36,054
Speaker 1: style on YouTube. But we have got more stories about

1186
01:05:36,094 --> 01:05:39,294
Speaker 1: trad wife life coming down the pipeline, and we've already

1187
01:05:39,374 --> 01:05:42,494
Speaker 1: done several. I highly recommend that you listen to our

1188
01:05:42,534 --> 01:05:47,294
Speaker 1: episode with Tea Levings. She escaped her tradwife marriage barely

1189
01:05:47,894 --> 01:05:50,934
Speaker 1: and she is raising the alarm about what she says

1190
01:05:50,974 --> 01:05:54,854
Speaker 1: are the dangers of the tradwife ideology. Watch this space

1191
01:05:54,934 --> 01:05:58,374
Speaker 1: for more. The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown,

1192
01:05:58,494 --> 01:06:01,614
Speaker 1: and somehow she managed to get through COVID without making

1193
01:06:02,094 --> 01:06:06,214
Speaker 1: a sour dough starter Dido. Audio on this show is

1194
01:06:06,254 --> 01:06:09,334
Speaker 1: by Tom Lyon, and he says, if being trad makes you,

1195
01:06:10,254 --> 01:06:13,214
Speaker 1: then you do you, although he also says that his

1196
01:06:13,294 --> 01:06:16,094
Speaker 1: wife is the opposite of a trad wife. Her career

1197
01:06:16,174 --> 01:06:19,094
Speaker 1: is soaring and she out earns him. But this works

1198
01:06:19,134 --> 01:06:22,614
Speaker 1: for Tom just fine. I'm your host, Maya Friedman, and

1199
01:06:22,734 --> 01:06:28,734
Speaker 1: the most trad wifey thing about me is nothing. See soon.

1200
01:06:38,654 --> 01:06:41,014
Speaker 3: We hope you enjoyed this episode of No Filter.

1201
01:06:41,094 --> 01:06:43,014
Speaker 5: If you want to hear more from No Filter, Mere

1202
01:06:43,094 --> 01:06:46,574
Speaker 5: Friedman has interviewed so many fascinating people this year, will

1203
01:06:46,574 --> 01:06:48,454
Speaker 5: pop a link to it in the show notes.

1204
01:06:48,574 --> 01:06:50,414
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you do want some more tradwife content,

1205
01:06:50,454 --> 01:06:53,014
Speaker 2: And let's be honest, we've got a hankering for season

1206
01:06:53,094 --> 01:06:54,974
Speaker 2: two of Secret Life of Mom and Wives and it's

1207
01:06:55,014 --> 01:06:57,494
Speaker 2: not quite here yet. We have reported on this topic

1208
01:06:57,574 --> 01:06:59,614
Speaker 2: across a year on The Quickie. We'll link those stories

1209
01:06:59,654 --> 01:07:00,294
Speaker 2: in our show notes

1210
01:07:00,334 --> 01:07:02,654
Speaker 5: Too, and we'll catch you tomorrow for another new episode

1211
01:07:02,694 --> 01:07:03,254
Speaker 5: of The Quikie