1
00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,112
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

2
00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:14,312
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. On October nineteenth,

3
00:00:14,512 --> 00:00:17,832
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, Sally Leyden called her brother Ohen down

4
00:00:17,872 --> 00:00:18,992
Speaker 1: in Sydney.

5
00:00:19,112 --> 00:00:20,912
Speaker 2: He'd celebrated his birthday the day.

6
00:00:20,792 --> 00:00:23,512
Speaker 1: Before, and she wanted to know if their mum, Marian,

7
00:00:23,592 --> 00:00:26,152
Speaker 1: who was on a year long overseas trip, had gotten

8
00:00:26,232 --> 00:00:28,872
Speaker 1: in touch to wish him a happy birthday. When he

9
00:00:28,952 --> 00:00:32,872
Speaker 1: tells her that she didn't, Sally starts to worry. Now

10
00:00:32,912 --> 00:00:35,992
Speaker 1: that is not like her mum. She would never miss

11
00:00:35,992 --> 00:00:39,231
Speaker 1: her son's birthday. Now she knew that her mum had

12
00:00:39,232 --> 00:00:41,511
Speaker 1: been in the UK, she'd received a phone call from

13
00:00:41,552 --> 00:00:45,071
Speaker 1: her back in August. But it was the nineties, and

14
00:00:45,111 --> 00:00:47,672
Speaker 1: this is back before we were in constant contact via

15
00:00:47,791 --> 00:00:51,791
Speaker 1: mobile phone or the internet. There was no digital photo

16
00:00:51,872 --> 00:00:54,472
Speaker 1: trail of her mum's sipping tea in the quaint English

17
00:00:54,552 --> 00:00:59,032
Speaker 1: countryside for her to push back those worrying thoughts. Sallie

18
00:00:59,312 --> 00:01:02,272
Speaker 1: had no idea where her mum was or even how

19
00:01:02,312 --> 00:01:03,432
Speaker 1: to get in contact with her.

20
00:01:04,472 --> 00:01:06,192
Speaker 2: Someone suggested that she'd check.

21
00:01:05,992 --> 00:01:08,152
Speaker 1: Her mum, Marion's bank account to see if it was

22
00:01:08,192 --> 00:01:11,712
Speaker 1: still being used and to maybe find out where, while

23
00:01:11,712 --> 00:01:13,911
Speaker 1: the bank employee said to her, look, they can't just

24
00:01:13,992 --> 00:01:17,352
Speaker 1: hand over that kind of information due to privacy reasons. Obviously,

25
00:01:18,152 --> 00:01:20,792
Speaker 1: something Sally tells them makes them do a bit of

26
00:01:20,792 --> 00:01:23,631
Speaker 1: a double take. Where did you say your mum was

27
00:01:24,271 --> 00:01:27,992
Speaker 1: traveling overseas? Did you say that's not what I'm seeing?

28
00:01:27,992 --> 00:01:30,831
Speaker 1: The bank teller tells her, I can see money being

29
00:01:30,831 --> 00:01:33,631
Speaker 1: taken out quite large sums of it in fact, from

30
00:01:33,672 --> 00:01:38,112
Speaker 1: a branch they say in Byron Bay. From that moment on,

31
00:01:38,631 --> 00:01:41,551
Speaker 1: Sally search for her mum, Marian Barter would become the

32
00:01:41,592 --> 00:01:45,512
Speaker 1: subject of one of the country's most gripping podcasts. The

33
00:01:45,592 --> 00:01:48,792
Speaker 1: World following along while Sally learns that her mum was

34
00:01:48,912 --> 00:01:57,192
Speaker 1: hiding secrets, lots of them. I'm Claire Murphy and this

35
00:01:57,272 --> 00:02:00,752
Speaker 1: is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most

36
00:02:00,792 --> 00:02:03,632
Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the

37
00:02:03,672 --> 00:02:06,752
Speaker 1: most about them. Now you might know the name Marian

38
00:02:06,792 --> 00:02:10,912
Speaker 1: Barter from the highly successful podcast The Lady Vanishes. Through

39
00:02:11,072 --> 00:02:17,232
Speaker 1: bank records, witness reports, classified ads, false information, overseas trips,

40
00:02:17,352 --> 00:02:21,352
Speaker 1: and a less than thorough police investigation, a tangled web

41
00:02:21,392 --> 00:02:25,072
Speaker 1: of threads started to reveal the secrets of Marion Barter's

42
00:02:25,112 --> 00:02:29,552
Speaker 1: final known whereabouts. But while their investigation uncovered a lot,

43
00:02:30,152 --> 00:02:32,792
Speaker 1: it still wasn't able to hand Sally in her family

44
00:02:32,912 --> 00:02:36,912
Speaker 1: that last piece of the puzzle. Was her mum scammed

45
00:02:36,952 --> 00:02:39,192
Speaker 1: by someone who knew she was a romantic at heart?

46
00:02:39,872 --> 00:02:42,552
Speaker 1: Did she actually return to Australia or was it just

47
00:02:42,632 --> 00:02:45,752
Speaker 1: her passport that did And why did she change her

48
00:02:45,872 --> 00:02:49,872
Speaker 1: name before setting off on that fateful journey? Sally Laden,

49
00:02:50,152 --> 00:02:53,912
Speaker 1: Marian's daughter, has been searching for her mum all this time,

50
00:02:54,312 --> 00:02:58,112
Speaker 1: refusing to let her mum's story fade into a box

51
00:02:58,152 --> 00:03:02,112
Speaker 1: stash somewhere in the police archives. Sally's new podcast, The

52
00:03:02,152 --> 00:03:05,592
Speaker 1: Missing Matter, is hoping to not only uncover the truth

53
00:03:05,632 --> 00:03:09,192
Speaker 1: about Marian's final resting place, but to help others who

54
00:03:09,192 --> 00:03:16,432
Speaker 1: are also searching for their missing Sally joins us now, Salie,

55
00:03:16,432 --> 00:03:18,752
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. I just

56
00:03:18,792 --> 00:03:21,272
Speaker 1: wanted to know, and I kind of got a sense

57
00:03:21,432 --> 00:03:24,672
Speaker 1: of this from the ABC TV show You Can't Ask

58
00:03:24,712 --> 00:03:27,592
Speaker 1: that when they spoke to relatives of people who had

59
00:03:27,832 --> 00:03:31,552
Speaker 1: missing family members. It's been like, we're coming up on

60
00:03:31,632 --> 00:03:35,192
Speaker 1: thirty years since your mum went missing, and just wanted

61
00:03:35,192 --> 00:03:38,952
Speaker 1: to know, like, does the emotion around searching for a

62
00:03:38,992 --> 00:03:42,312
Speaker 1: lost loved one. Does that ever become any easier to bear?

63
00:03:42,352 --> 00:03:44,552
Speaker 1: I imagine it to be something like an open wound

64
00:03:44,552 --> 00:03:46,552
Speaker 1: that never really gets a chance to heal.

65
00:03:47,072 --> 00:03:50,232
Speaker 3: I personally think it gets harder as you get older.

66
00:03:50,592 --> 00:03:53,192
Speaker 3: I think that also has something to do with your age.

67
00:03:53,312 --> 00:03:55,232
Speaker 3: I was only twenty four when my mum went missing.

68
00:03:55,272 --> 00:03:58,312
Speaker 3: I'm now fifty two and I'm a mum myself, so

69
00:03:58,872 --> 00:04:01,712
Speaker 3: I think that has a part of it. But we

70
00:04:01,792 --> 00:04:05,272
Speaker 3: refer to the loss of a missing person in our

71
00:04:05,352 --> 00:04:09,232
Speaker 3: space as ambiguous loss, the ambiguity that comes with not

72
00:04:09,352 --> 00:04:12,752
Speaker 3: knowing the where, the why, the how, the what happened

73
00:04:12,752 --> 00:04:16,112
Speaker 3: to your loved one. It plays with your head and

74
00:04:16,952 --> 00:04:20,272
Speaker 3: it can cause mental health issues and all sorts of

75
00:04:20,351 --> 00:04:25,032
Speaker 3: crazy because you can dive in and you know, sometimes

76
00:04:25,072 --> 00:04:27,992
Speaker 3: not come back out for a while, and can be

77
00:04:28,072 --> 00:04:29,672
Speaker 3: quite challenging for.

78
00:04:29,552 --> 00:04:33,152
Speaker 1: Those listening who maybe aren't aware of your mum Marion's story,

79
00:04:33,232 --> 00:04:35,512
Speaker 1: although it has been covered quite extensively on the Lady

80
00:04:35,592 --> 00:04:38,672
Speaker 1: Vanisher's podcast, and you've picked that up again with the

81
00:04:38,712 --> 00:04:41,112
Speaker 1: Missing Matter in your own podcast now, which kind of

82
00:04:41,152 --> 00:04:44,072
Speaker 1: picks up from where the coronial inquests handed down their report.

83
00:04:45,112 --> 00:04:48,392
Speaker 1: Can you take us back to before your mum went missing.

84
00:04:48,792 --> 00:04:51,872
Speaker 1: What was life like for you guys as a family?

85
00:04:52,552 --> 00:04:55,312
Speaker 1: What was she like before all of this and what

86
00:04:55,352 --> 00:04:57,632
Speaker 1: you've subsequently learned about her has come to light?

87
00:04:58,552 --> 00:05:03,832
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, we had an unusual family mix, I

88
00:05:03,832 --> 00:05:08,712
Speaker 3: would say. My I moved to the Gold Coast after

89
00:05:08,912 --> 00:05:12,872
Speaker 3: getting a really good promotion at an exclusive boys' school

90
00:05:13,112 --> 00:05:18,032
Speaker 3: up there called the Southport School. So she packed up

91
00:05:18,512 --> 00:05:20,832
Speaker 3: and moved from New South Wales to Queensland on the

92
00:05:20,832 --> 00:05:25,632
Speaker 3: Gold Coast in late nineteen ninety three. I came up

93
00:05:25,672 --> 00:05:28,312
Speaker 3: and visited her in the June of nineteen ninety four

94
00:05:29,152 --> 00:05:32,232
Speaker 3: and decided that I would move up there with her

95
00:05:32,472 --> 00:05:35,791
Speaker 3: at that point, and I moved up in the December

96
00:05:35,992 --> 00:05:40,472
Speaker 3: of that year. My brother was living in Sydney. I

97
00:05:40,592 --> 00:05:43,392
Speaker 3: was twenty one. We were seventeen months apart. I was

98
00:05:43,432 --> 00:05:46,392
Speaker 3: the oldest. He was in a relationship that he'd been

99
00:05:46,392 --> 00:05:50,512
Speaker 3: in for many years, and soon after I moved up,

100
00:05:50,552 --> 00:05:55,672
Speaker 3: he got engaged. Soon after that, I met my husband,

101
00:05:55,832 --> 00:05:59,512
Speaker 3: who we've been together for thirty years now. His name's Chris,

102
00:06:00,232 --> 00:06:04,112
Speaker 3: And yeah, life was. Life was pretty boring, to be honest,

103
00:06:04,232 --> 00:06:07,712
Speaker 3: in comparison to what I am living today. I lived

104
00:06:07,712 --> 00:06:10,551
Speaker 3: with mum for a while. I met Chris, I moved

105
00:06:10,552 --> 00:06:12,671
Speaker 3: out because I got a dog and she wouldn't let

106
00:06:12,712 --> 00:06:15,112
Speaker 3: me have the dog. So and then Chris and I

107
00:06:15,192 --> 00:06:20,352
Speaker 3: ended up moving in together and we got engaged, and

108
00:06:20,512 --> 00:06:22,351
Speaker 3: their mum decided she was going on the trip of

109
00:06:22,352 --> 00:06:25,632
Speaker 3: a lifetime and we haven't seen her since.

110
00:06:25,992 --> 00:06:27,432
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about her circumstances.

111
00:06:27,472 --> 00:06:29,872
Speaker 1: So she was single at this point in life, like

112
00:06:29,912 --> 00:06:32,351
Speaker 1: she'd been married and divorced three times by that stage.

113
00:06:32,432 --> 00:06:34,472
Speaker 1: Did you get a feeling from her that she was

114
00:06:35,392 --> 00:06:38,192
Speaker 1: out looking for love when she was embarking on this

115
00:06:38,232 --> 00:06:41,632
Speaker 1: overseas adventure or was she happily single and was she

116
00:06:42,712 --> 00:06:44,512
Speaker 1: content with where her life had taken her.

117
00:06:44,472 --> 00:06:45,072
Speaker 2: At that point.

118
00:06:45,272 --> 00:06:48,952
Speaker 3: Look, I don't think my mum was ever happy being single.

119
00:06:49,192 --> 00:06:52,472
Speaker 3: She was a woman who loved being in relationships. She

120
00:06:52,712 --> 00:06:57,432
Speaker 3: was a romantic. She was that person who dreamt of

121
00:06:57,952 --> 00:07:03,232
Speaker 3: Heathcliff coming over the rolling hills to whisker away, you know,

122
00:07:04,112 --> 00:07:07,152
Speaker 3: on the Orient Express, let's say, because that's the story.

123
00:07:07,832 --> 00:07:10,792
Speaker 3: So I feel like there was a few dramas happening

124
00:07:10,832 --> 00:07:13,712
Speaker 3: for her at her work. She had just won a

125
00:07:13,712 --> 00:07:17,832
Speaker 3: big award in teaching. She became the best teacher in

126
00:07:17,912 --> 00:07:23,312
Speaker 3: Queensland in the November of nineteen ninety six. I think

127
00:07:23,392 --> 00:07:27,232
Speaker 3: I just saw things start to shift. In that new

128
00:07:27,312 --> 00:07:30,072
Speaker 3: year of nineteen ninety seven, she changed a little bit.

129
00:07:30,472 --> 00:07:33,232
Speaker 3: She was sad, she was upset, she'd been crying to me.

130
00:07:34,032 --> 00:07:35,712
Speaker 3: Sounded to me like there was a bit of tall

131
00:07:35,712 --> 00:07:38,112
Speaker 3: Poppy syndrome happening at the school where some of the

132
00:07:38,152 --> 00:07:40,672
Speaker 3: other teachers didn't like the fact that she'd been nominated

133
00:07:40,712 --> 00:07:42,952
Speaker 3: for this award and won it, and it was a

134
00:07:42,952 --> 00:07:46,512
Speaker 3: pretty big award. I mean, Ida Butchero's actually was the

135
00:07:46,552 --> 00:07:51,232
Speaker 3: presenter at the Netta Awards who gave mum her award,

136
00:07:51,272 --> 00:07:54,232
Speaker 3: and my mum loved Diea Buttro's, so she would have

137
00:07:54,432 --> 00:07:58,672
Speaker 3: just completely loved that. But yeah, I think she was

138
00:07:58,712 --> 00:08:01,192
Speaker 3: just in a different headspace. So when she told me

139
00:08:01,832 --> 00:08:03,592
Speaker 3: that she had decided she was going to go on

140
00:08:03,632 --> 00:08:06,232
Speaker 3: this trip, she was going to go away for ee

141
00:08:06,392 --> 00:08:09,072
Speaker 3: year and she was going to come back in time

142
00:08:09,072 --> 00:08:12,272
Speaker 3: for my wedding, which was the following October, I was

143
00:08:12,312 --> 00:08:15,232
Speaker 3: okay with that. I just thought, you know, what's she's

144
00:08:15,272 --> 00:08:17,872
Speaker 3: not happy where she is. She's great at her job,

145
00:08:18,032 --> 00:08:21,032
Speaker 3: She's very passionate and loves what she does. As a teacher,

146
00:08:21,872 --> 00:08:25,392
Speaker 3: and I was okay with her going overseas. You know,

147
00:08:25,512 --> 00:08:28,752
Speaker 3: she was she was a strong person, she was capable,

148
00:08:29,272 --> 00:08:32,911
Speaker 3: very smart, So I didn't have any issues about her

149
00:08:32,952 --> 00:08:35,592
Speaker 3: doing that on her own or going solo. Yeah, but

150
00:08:35,672 --> 00:08:38,432
Speaker 3: I think she was a person that loved being in

151
00:08:38,472 --> 00:08:43,432
Speaker 3: a relationship. So you know, as it turns out, potentially

152
00:08:43,752 --> 00:08:45,152
Speaker 3: that's why she went overseas.

153
00:08:45,752 --> 00:08:48,712
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that moment because and as much

154
00:08:48,712 --> 00:08:51,992
Speaker 1: as you, as a twenty three year old is paying

155
00:08:51,992 --> 00:08:54,072
Speaker 1: attention to what their mum is doing, I mean, you've

156
00:08:54,072 --> 00:08:56,272
Speaker 1: got your own life, and you know, when you're in

157
00:08:56,312 --> 00:08:58,112
Speaker 1: your twenties, is still a little bit selfish. You do

158
00:08:58,192 --> 00:09:01,271
Speaker 1: not really like in depth in your mom's life at

159
00:09:01,272 --> 00:09:04,632
Speaker 1: that point. But there's lots of things that you've since

160
00:09:04,672 --> 00:09:06,992
Speaker 1: found out were actually going on at that time as

161
00:09:06,992 --> 00:09:10,952
Speaker 1: she's preparing herself to go on this overseas adventure. Can

162
00:09:10,992 --> 00:09:13,472
Speaker 1: you just talk us through some of the things that

163
00:09:13,512 --> 00:09:16,592
Speaker 1: were going on that you've now become aware of as

164
00:09:16,632 --> 00:09:18,271
Speaker 1: she was packing up and getting ready to go.

165
00:09:18,672 --> 00:09:22,271
Speaker 3: Yeah, look some of the things that we've come across.

166
00:09:23,672 --> 00:09:26,391
Speaker 3: She changed her name and didn't tell any of us

167
00:09:26,472 --> 00:09:30,152
Speaker 3: that she had done that, and that actually happened the

168
00:09:30,192 --> 00:09:33,352
Speaker 3: same week as my birthday and Mother's Day in nineteen

169
00:09:33,392 --> 00:09:37,792
Speaker 3: ninety seven. So I was quite sad to find that

170
00:09:37,872 --> 00:09:41,512
Speaker 3: out because my mum and I had a very good relationship,

171
00:09:41,512 --> 00:09:43,992
Speaker 3: and I was quite shocked, if anything, to know that

172
00:09:44,072 --> 00:09:47,792
Speaker 3: she hadn't told me that she had done that, and

173
00:09:49,192 --> 00:09:52,232
Speaker 3: she'd packed up all her things and put them into

174
00:09:52,352 --> 00:09:56,032
Speaker 3: a shipping container. And she did say to me, if

175
00:09:56,112 --> 00:10:00,072
Speaker 3: I decide to stay overseas and teach, I will get

176
00:10:00,152 --> 00:10:03,072
Speaker 3: you to send the shipping container over to me. And

177
00:10:03,112 --> 00:10:06,552
Speaker 3: I kicked myself every day that I didn't push her

178
00:10:06,672 --> 00:10:09,112
Speaker 3: to find out where she was storing the shipping container,

179
00:10:09,232 --> 00:10:13,552
Speaker 3: because we've never found that. So there's lots of little

180
00:10:13,592 --> 00:10:17,072
Speaker 3: things that have trickled in over the past twenty eight

181
00:10:17,152 --> 00:10:21,952
Speaker 3: years that have given me some insight as to potentially

182
00:10:21,952 --> 00:10:24,712
Speaker 3: how she was feeling. We knew at the time when

183
00:10:24,752 --> 00:10:27,112
Speaker 3: she'd sold her house, she sold it really quickly. She

184
00:10:27,232 --> 00:10:30,232
Speaker 3: sold it in three weeks and for fifteen thousand, less

185
00:10:30,232 --> 00:10:32,992
Speaker 3: than she bought it for only a few years before.

186
00:10:33,632 --> 00:10:36,432
Speaker 3: And I know fifteen thousand doesn't sound like much in

187
00:10:36,432 --> 00:10:40,272
Speaker 3: today's money, but back then the house was one hundred

188
00:10:40,312 --> 00:10:42,832
Speaker 3: and seventy five thousand, I think, and she sold it

189
00:10:42,872 --> 00:10:46,352
Speaker 3: for one hundred and sixty thousand very quickly in three weeks.

190
00:10:46,752 --> 00:10:48,272
Speaker 3: And we've sort of gone back and looked at that,

191
00:10:48,352 --> 00:10:51,272
Speaker 3: and I've had people like Laura Richards, who's a criminal

192
00:10:51,272 --> 00:10:54,312
Speaker 3: analyst who used to work for New Scotland Yard, and

193
00:10:54,352 --> 00:10:57,312
Speaker 3: she's looked at that and the speeding of the timeline

194
00:10:57,592 --> 00:11:00,112
Speaker 3: of things that have happened, Like she's changed her name,

195
00:11:00,192 --> 00:11:03,832
Speaker 3: she's got a new passport, she's got an international driver's license,

196
00:11:03,832 --> 00:11:07,192
Speaker 3: she's sold her house at a loss, and she quit

197
00:11:07,192 --> 00:11:10,072
Speaker 3: a job and then goes overseas, so that the speed

198
00:11:10,152 --> 00:11:14,112
Speaker 3: of that is quite worrying and troubling in from a

199
00:11:14,152 --> 00:11:17,712
Speaker 3: criminal perspective as to why she was doing that and

200
00:11:17,872 --> 00:11:20,432
Speaker 3: wasn't telling anybody what she was doing.

201
00:11:21,672 --> 00:11:24,312
Speaker 1: What's interesting, too, is that when she applied for that

202
00:11:24,352 --> 00:11:27,512
Speaker 1: passport in her new name, she didn't ask anyone to

203
00:11:27,632 --> 00:11:30,592
Speaker 1: sign that application to be her witness. That would potentially

204
00:11:30,712 --> 00:11:32,512
Speaker 1: be someone that you would think she would because didn't

205
00:11:32,512 --> 00:11:34,632
Speaker 1: she ask a dentist to sign off on that for her.

206
00:11:34,712 --> 00:11:38,112
Speaker 3: She did, Yeah, and he was on the stand at

207
00:11:38,112 --> 00:11:41,792
Speaker 3: the inquest actually and had no recollection of the matter.

208
00:11:42,472 --> 00:11:45,152
Speaker 3: He also was based in Brisbane. She lived on the

209
00:11:45,152 --> 00:11:47,792
Speaker 3: Gold Coast, So there was just a few of those

210
00:11:47,872 --> 00:11:51,312
Speaker 3: weird scenarios that we sort of looked at and went,

211
00:11:51,432 --> 00:11:54,192
Speaker 3: what why, why did she do that? And we still

212
00:11:54,192 --> 00:11:57,392
Speaker 3: don't know. Obviously she's not here to tell us, but

213
00:11:58,952 --> 00:12:04,072
Speaker 3: we can make assumptions based on activities and information that

214
00:12:04,112 --> 00:12:07,792
Speaker 3: we've garnered throughout their process of looking for her.

215
00:12:08,472 --> 00:12:11,232
Speaker 1: Well, she does go overseas, and it's not like she

216
00:12:11,472 --> 00:12:14,432
Speaker 1: disappeared into the ether. She's still in regular contact with you.

217
00:12:14,472 --> 00:12:18,112
Speaker 1: She's sending postcards, letters, and then she makes a final

218
00:12:18,152 --> 00:12:23,832
Speaker 1: phone call to you. It's August one, nineteen ninety seven.

219
00:12:23,952 --> 00:12:25,712
Speaker 1: This is the last time you speak to your mum.

220
00:12:26,392 --> 00:12:28,552
Speaker 1: What do you remember from that conversation? And is that

221
00:12:28,632 --> 00:12:31,872
Speaker 1: something that you replay to yourself. I imagine if I

222
00:12:31,912 --> 00:12:33,992
Speaker 1: was in your situation, that would be something that I

223
00:12:34,032 --> 00:12:36,872
Speaker 1: would replay in my head over and over and over

224
00:12:36,952 --> 00:12:38,832
Speaker 1: to see if I missed something perhaps.

225
00:12:39,072 --> 00:12:41,912
Speaker 3: And this is where it becomes tricky, And this was

226
00:12:42,032 --> 00:12:47,112
Speaker 3: a topic of conversation throughout the inquest that when mum

227
00:12:47,272 --> 00:12:50,992
Speaker 3: spoke to me on the phone, she wasn't missing, So

228
00:12:51,392 --> 00:12:55,192
Speaker 3: I wasn't jotting down all the information or writing down

229
00:12:55,232 --> 00:12:57,752
Speaker 3: how long we spoke for or the information I had

230
00:12:57,752 --> 00:13:01,112
Speaker 3: to go off my memory of what we were talking about,

231
00:13:01,112 --> 00:13:05,352
Speaker 3: and I remember it as clear as day. Thankfully, I'm

232
00:13:05,392 --> 00:13:07,152
Speaker 3: blessed to be able to do that, I guess, but

233
00:13:07,792 --> 00:13:11,992
Speaker 3: the phone call was I remember because there's timelines, and

234
00:13:11,992 --> 00:13:14,392
Speaker 3: I think this is how my brain processes the things,

235
00:13:14,392 --> 00:13:17,032
Speaker 3: because obviously it's a very long time ago and a

236
00:13:17,072 --> 00:13:20,192
Speaker 3: lot has happened over that time. But I go back,

237
00:13:20,232 --> 00:13:23,752
Speaker 3: I go back through on my timestamp situation. So the

238
00:13:23,832 --> 00:13:26,392
Speaker 3: Threadbird disaster, for example, we have a time stamp on

239
00:13:26,432 --> 00:13:29,472
Speaker 3: that that happened and occurred. At eleven forty pm on

240
00:13:29,552 --> 00:13:33,112
Speaker 3: the thirtieth of July nineteen ninety seven, my husband and

241
00:13:33,192 --> 00:13:37,552
Speaker 3: I were driving back We've been skiing at Perisher, and

242
00:13:38,272 --> 00:13:41,392
Speaker 3: when we got home, there was an answering machine message

243
00:13:41,432 --> 00:13:44,752
Speaker 3: bleeping like the I don't know if you remember the answering.

244
00:13:44,832 --> 00:13:48,911
Speaker 2: I remember there'd be a light flashing. See knew someone.

245
00:13:48,832 --> 00:13:50,992
Speaker 3: Seeing the light flashing. I pressed it and it's Mum

246
00:13:51,112 --> 00:13:53,232
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh, I just heard word over here

247
00:13:53,952 --> 00:13:56,631
Speaker 3: about this redbird disaster. I just was checking in to

248
00:13:56,632 --> 00:13:58,432
Speaker 3: see if you and Chris were okay. And I remember

249
00:13:58,512 --> 00:14:02,032
Speaker 3: feeling really heartbroken. That I'd missed her, because that was

250
00:14:02,072 --> 00:14:04,632
Speaker 3: the first time she'd called since she'd been away. She

251
00:14:04,752 --> 00:14:06,992
Speaker 3: left on the twenty second of June, to give everyone

252
00:14:06,992 --> 00:14:09,032
Speaker 3: a bit of a timeline, or about six weeks in,

253
00:14:09,872 --> 00:14:13,392
Speaker 3: and I had just bought my wedding dress in Sydney

254
00:14:13,512 --> 00:14:19,032
Speaker 3: on the way back from skiing, and yeah, her passport

255
00:14:19,072 --> 00:14:22,112
Speaker 3: came back in on the second of August. So if

256
00:14:22,152 --> 00:14:24,272
Speaker 3: we look at the timeline there, we know for a

257
00:14:24,312 --> 00:14:28,472
Speaker 3: fact that she'd heard about the threadbir disaster, and she

258
00:14:28,792 --> 00:14:32,632
Speaker 3: being potentially in the UK's what we assume. She's a

259
00:14:32,712 --> 00:14:35,432
Speaker 3: day behind us as well, So we've got a very

260
00:14:35,512 --> 00:14:39,912
Speaker 3: narrow window here of her ringing checking in on Chris

261
00:14:39,952 --> 00:14:42,872
Speaker 3: and I. And I think that's important to mention because

262
00:14:43,512 --> 00:14:48,032
Speaker 3: she does fly back in the next day. And I

263
00:14:48,032 --> 00:14:51,512
Speaker 3: guess from my perspective, why would she take the time

264
00:14:51,552 --> 00:14:53,992
Speaker 3: to ring me and check in and make sure I'm okay.

265
00:14:54,152 --> 00:14:56,192
Speaker 3: She never wanted to see me ever again, which is

266
00:14:56,232 --> 00:14:59,832
Speaker 3: what I was told by police. So you know, the

267
00:14:59,832 --> 00:15:02,392
Speaker 3: phone call, she was at a payphone. The money kept

268
00:15:02,472 --> 00:15:04,752
Speaker 3: dropping out and the phone would hang up and she'd

269
00:15:04,792 --> 00:15:07,912
Speaker 3: ring me back again, and I was getting quite stressed

270
00:15:08,272 --> 00:15:12,112
Speaker 3: that because I guess I didn't have any control over

271
00:15:12,192 --> 00:15:15,632
Speaker 3: that conversation. She'd just chat and she'd written me this

272
00:15:15,752 --> 00:15:19,112
Speaker 3: long letter. It's written on notepaper from a hotel in Japan,

273
00:15:19,192 --> 00:15:22,952
Speaker 3: which is important to the stories, and thankfully I kept it.

274
00:15:23,312 --> 00:15:25,832
Speaker 3: But it's about nine pages of a little notepad that

275
00:15:25,872 --> 00:15:29,032
Speaker 3: you get next to your bed, so front and back

276
00:15:29,112 --> 00:15:32,072
Speaker 3: she's written, and that letter is kind of like a

277
00:15:32,072 --> 00:15:34,392
Speaker 3: bit of a checklist for me. Have you done this,

278
00:15:34,552 --> 00:15:36,112
Speaker 3: have you done that? Could you do this? Because she

279
00:15:36,192 --> 00:15:39,432
Speaker 3: was in such a rush when she was leaving, and

280
00:15:39,592 --> 00:15:43,792
Speaker 3: the phone call mimicked that, Okay, you got my letter,

281
00:15:43,872 --> 00:15:45,432
Speaker 3: Did you do this? Did you do that? So it

282
00:15:45,472 --> 00:15:47,712
Speaker 3: was a bit of a checklist. And then after about

283
00:15:47,752 --> 00:15:49,912
Speaker 3: the third or fourth time of the money dropping out,

284
00:15:50,112 --> 00:15:52,592
Speaker 3: she says to me, this is the last money I have,

285
00:15:53,152 --> 00:15:54,912
Speaker 3: so I'm just going to let you talk until the

286
00:15:54,912 --> 00:15:57,872
Speaker 3: money drops out. And so at that point I told

287
00:15:57,912 --> 00:16:00,552
Speaker 3: her what was going on in our lives and that

288
00:16:00,632 --> 00:16:02,472
Speaker 3: I just bought my wedding dress, and the phone cut

289
00:16:02,512 --> 00:16:04,192
Speaker 3: out and that was last time I ever spoke to her.

290
00:16:04,792 --> 00:16:06,632
Speaker 1: So, as you mentioned, you know that her part sport

291
00:16:06,712 --> 00:16:09,872
Speaker 1: arrives back in the country a day later, and we

292
00:16:09,992 --> 00:16:12,832
Speaker 1: presume that your mum marrying is the one who's using

293
00:16:12,872 --> 00:16:14,592
Speaker 1: that passport.

294
00:16:14,952 --> 00:16:15,912
Speaker 2: But how long does.

295
00:16:15,792 --> 00:16:18,112
Speaker 1: It take you to start to worry Because you don't

296
00:16:18,232 --> 00:16:20,832
Speaker 1: know at the time that she's her passport's returned to Australia.

297
00:16:20,872 --> 00:16:22,392
Speaker 1: You don't know, as you said, that your mum is

298
00:16:22,472 --> 00:16:24,672
Speaker 1: technically then missing. So how long does it take you

299
00:16:24,752 --> 00:16:27,792
Speaker 1: to really understand and when does it start to set in?

300
00:16:27,952 --> 00:16:30,592
Speaker 1: Like you know, when someone is missing, you think, okay,

301
00:16:30,592 --> 00:16:32,672
Speaker 1: maybe they're this, and you maybe think about all the

302
00:16:32,672 --> 00:16:35,072
Speaker 1: theories about potentially where they might be. Plus she's traveling,

303
00:16:35,192 --> 00:16:37,232
Speaker 1: it's the nineties, it's not like she had a mobile

304
00:16:37,272 --> 00:16:40,392
Speaker 1: phone with her. You know, she's using payphones. You're relying

305
00:16:40,432 --> 00:16:42,872
Speaker 1: on answering machines. So how long does it take you

306
00:16:42,912 --> 00:16:44,312
Speaker 1: to realize that something's amiss?

307
00:16:44,512 --> 00:16:46,112
Speaker 3: So in the phone call, she said to me, look,

308
00:16:46,152 --> 00:16:49,112
Speaker 3: I'm going to stop writing postcards to everybody, and I

309
00:16:49,192 --> 00:16:53,072
Speaker 3: literally mean everybody got a postcard. Some people kept it, thankfully,

310
00:16:53,552 --> 00:16:58,192
Speaker 3: most didn't unfortunately, but they have been like little I

311
00:16:58,192 --> 00:17:00,312
Speaker 3: don't know, little droppings for us to be able to

312
00:17:00,352 --> 00:17:03,192
Speaker 3: actually timestamp where she was and where what she was

313
00:17:03,232 --> 00:17:05,072
Speaker 3: doing at the time, because she does talk about that

314
00:17:05,111 --> 00:17:08,951
Speaker 3: in these postcards and she said to me, look, I'm

315
00:17:08,992 --> 00:17:10,992
Speaker 3: going to stop writing postcards because I want to try

316
00:17:11,032 --> 00:17:13,351
Speaker 3: and have a holiday. And I said, absolutely, go and

317
00:17:13,472 --> 00:17:17,392
Speaker 3: have a holiday. Stop buying stamps and finding postboxes and

318
00:17:17,391 --> 00:17:20,631
Speaker 3: putting mail to us. We're all fine here. You just

319
00:17:20,631 --> 00:17:22,391
Speaker 3: go and have a break. Because I knew she needed

320
00:17:22,391 --> 00:17:26,151
Speaker 3: to do that, so in that there was an expectation

321
00:17:26,272 --> 00:17:28,151
Speaker 3: that I wasn't going to hear from her for a

322
00:17:28,192 --> 00:17:31,871
Speaker 3: little while, and so I wasn't worried. I was happy

323
00:17:31,871 --> 00:17:35,711
Speaker 3: that she was having a break. And then look, I

324
00:17:35,712 --> 00:17:38,752
Speaker 3: pulled myself back. It's hard to remember the timeline here

325
00:17:38,792 --> 00:17:42,192
Speaker 3: because it's a bit fuzzy, but there was a time

326
00:17:42,232 --> 00:17:45,671
Speaker 3: when it started to worry me that I realized I

327
00:17:45,712 --> 00:17:50,512
Speaker 3: actually have no way of contacting her. And in today's

328
00:17:50,512 --> 00:17:54,071
Speaker 3: world that's very hard to fathom because we're all so contactable,

329
00:17:54,792 --> 00:17:58,311
Speaker 3: but back then it was near impossible. We were relying

330
00:17:58,351 --> 00:18:00,391
Speaker 3: on dial up for the internet. As you said, we

331
00:18:00,431 --> 00:18:03,591
Speaker 3: didn't have mobile phones. Some people did, but you were

332
00:18:03,631 --> 00:18:06,392
Speaker 3: pretty well off if you had a mobile phone back then,

333
00:18:06,512 --> 00:18:09,071
Speaker 3: and it was so new. Technology was new. She didn't

334
00:18:09,111 --> 00:18:12,272
Speaker 3: have a laptop, so I was really relying on her

335
00:18:12,311 --> 00:18:14,631
Speaker 3: to either ring me or send me a letter in

336
00:18:14,952 --> 00:18:17,792
Speaker 3: the way of contacting as you did back in the nineties,

337
00:18:18,512 --> 00:18:20,631
Speaker 3: And it sort of just dawned on me that I

338
00:18:20,671 --> 00:18:22,992
Speaker 3: have no way of contacting her. I didn't know where

339
00:18:23,032 --> 00:18:25,911
Speaker 3: she was staying. I didn't know what hotel she was at.

340
00:18:26,151 --> 00:18:28,831
Speaker 3: I didn't know where she was going because she didn't

341
00:18:28,831 --> 00:18:30,311
Speaker 3: write any of that down. She didn't give me an

342
00:18:30,351 --> 00:18:34,432
Speaker 3: itinerary or anything for me to be informed or have

343
00:18:34,552 --> 00:18:36,992
Speaker 3: information of that. I don't even know if she knew

344
00:18:37,032 --> 00:18:41,392
Speaker 3: herself to be honest. And then it started getting long

345
00:18:41,431 --> 00:18:43,552
Speaker 3: in the tooth and I was like, I'm actually starting

346
00:18:43,591 --> 00:18:45,711
Speaker 3: to get concerned now, why is she not bringing me

347
00:18:46,071 --> 00:18:49,911
Speaker 3: what's happened? And then my brother's birthday was approaching in

348
00:18:49,992 --> 00:18:53,431
Speaker 3: the October, and I thought, for sure, she'll call Owen.

349
00:18:53,591 --> 00:18:55,791
Speaker 3: That'll definitely be the next point of contact if she

350
00:18:55,831 --> 00:18:59,272
Speaker 3: doesn't send us postcards or letters in the interim. And

351
00:18:59,752 --> 00:19:03,712
Speaker 3: I rang Ohen. His birthday was on a Saturday that year,

352
00:19:03,871 --> 00:19:06,552
Speaker 3: and the eighteenth of October, and I said, did you

353
00:19:06,591 --> 00:19:09,511
Speaker 3: hear from Mum? And he said no? And I was

354
00:19:09,591 --> 00:19:12,512
Speaker 3: worried at that point. And then I rang him back

355
00:19:12,512 --> 00:19:14,792
Speaker 3: the next day on the Sunday, and I said, have

356
00:19:14,911 --> 00:19:17,631
Speaker 3: you heard from her because giving her some grace that

357
00:19:17,671 --> 00:19:20,032
Speaker 3: they're a day behind over there and maybe she'd just

358
00:19:20,111 --> 00:19:22,591
Speaker 3: got her dates wrong. And he said, no, I didn't

359
00:19:22,591 --> 00:19:25,431
Speaker 3: hear from her, and I just knew something was wrong.

360
00:19:25,591 --> 00:19:27,751
Speaker 3: At that point. We had a friend come over for

361
00:19:27,831 --> 00:19:29,871
Speaker 3: dinner and we were talking about it at the dinner

362
00:19:29,911 --> 00:19:32,392
Speaker 3: table and she said to me, why don't you ring

363
00:19:32,431 --> 00:19:35,711
Speaker 3: the bank and see if she's using her account? And

364
00:19:35,792 --> 00:19:38,432
Speaker 3: so I jumped up straight away while we're eating dinner

365
00:19:38,512 --> 00:19:41,712
Speaker 3: and I rang The phone was on the wall next

366
00:19:41,752 --> 00:19:44,591
Speaker 3: to the dining room table, actually in the kitchen, so they,

367
00:19:45,192 --> 00:19:47,471
Speaker 3: my friend and Chris, my husband, were sitting there when

368
00:19:47,512 --> 00:19:49,391
Speaker 3: I rang Telly Banking and I said, look, my mum's

369
00:19:49,431 --> 00:19:53,672
Speaker 3: traveling overseas by herself. She's fifty one. She hasn't contacted

370
00:19:54,071 --> 00:19:56,351
Speaker 3: my brother forast birthday and that's very out of character.

371
00:19:56,831 --> 00:19:59,032
Speaker 3: Can you please check if she's using her bank account?

372
00:19:59,071 --> 00:20:00,632
Speaker 3: And she said, oh, I'm really sorry. I can't tell

373
00:20:00,671 --> 00:20:05,631
Speaker 3: you anything due to privacy. And she paused at that

374
00:20:05,712 --> 00:20:07,752
Speaker 3: point and said, hang on, did you say your mum's

375
00:20:07,792 --> 00:20:09,912
Speaker 3: overseas And I said yes, and she went, oh my god,

376
00:20:09,911 --> 00:20:11,831
Speaker 3: there's money coming out of her bank account in Byron

377
00:20:11,831 --> 00:20:15,071
Speaker 3: Bay and proceeded to tell me that five thousand dollars

378
00:20:15,111 --> 00:20:18,471
Speaker 3: had been withdrawn out of her bank account for multiple days,

379
00:20:19,032 --> 00:20:21,151
Speaker 3: somewhere in the mix of three and a half weeks.

380
00:20:21,472 --> 00:20:23,752
Speaker 3: She also tells me that she was back up in

381
00:20:24,032 --> 00:20:27,591
Speaker 3: Burley Heads on the Gold Coast, which is five minutes

382
00:20:27,631 --> 00:20:30,591
Speaker 3: from where I lived, so three days money was coming

383
00:20:30,631 --> 00:20:32,472
Speaker 3: out of her bank account there as well, and then

384
00:20:32,512 --> 00:20:35,152
Speaker 3: back down in Byron Bay. Now, Mum had left her

385
00:20:35,151 --> 00:20:38,231
Speaker 3: car with me. Before she left, she'd sold her house,

386
00:20:38,671 --> 00:20:41,711
Speaker 3: so she had nowhere to live and no transport. So

387
00:20:42,792 --> 00:20:44,871
Speaker 3: we know for a fact that she used her Medicare

388
00:20:44,911 --> 00:20:48,831
Speaker 3: card or her Medicare card was used in Grafton on

389
00:20:48,871 --> 00:20:53,512
Speaker 3: the thirteenth of August, So only what's that eleven days

390
00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:58,232
Speaker 3: twelve days after she's returned. So how did she get

391
00:20:58,272 --> 00:21:01,712
Speaker 3: to Grafton to use her Medicare card at an optometrist

392
00:21:02,671 --> 00:21:05,191
Speaker 3: and then back in Byron Bay taking out five thousand

393
00:21:05,192 --> 00:21:07,391
Speaker 3: dollars every day, then back up in to Burly Heads

394
00:21:07,391 --> 00:21:09,911
Speaker 3: and back down to Byron Back in nineteen ninety seven,

395
00:21:09,992 --> 00:21:12,711
Speaker 3: it took hours to get to Byron Bay because it

396
00:21:12,792 --> 00:21:16,071
Speaker 3: was a very hard road. It wasn't like the freeway

397
00:21:16,111 --> 00:21:19,152
Speaker 3: that it is today, So there's lots of questions about that,

398
00:21:19,712 --> 00:21:22,991
Speaker 3: like how did she maneuver herself, and why was she

399
00:21:23,591 --> 00:21:26,591
Speaker 3: taking out large lunts of money every day instead of

400
00:21:26,631 --> 00:21:29,831
Speaker 3: just taking out a lump sum. If I can add,

401
00:21:29,871 --> 00:21:33,712
Speaker 3: at this point, on the fifteenth of October nineteen ninety seven,

402
00:21:33,792 --> 00:21:37,512
Speaker 3: we now know that eighty thousand dollars was electronically transferred

403
00:21:37,552 --> 00:21:40,232
Speaker 3: out of my mum's bank account to an unknown bank account.

404
00:21:41,032 --> 00:21:43,912
Speaker 3: So if you add all of that up, that's quite

405
00:21:43,952 --> 00:21:47,472
Speaker 3: a big chunk of money in today's money, probably close

406
00:21:47,512 --> 00:21:49,351
Speaker 3: to seven hundred thousand dollars.

407
00:21:50,512 --> 00:21:53,711
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Claire Murphy.

408
00:21:53,831 --> 00:21:56,792
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Sally Leyden, the daughter of Marion Barter,

409
00:21:57,192 --> 00:22:00,111
Speaker 1: an Australian school teacher who vanished back in nineteen ninety

410
00:22:00,111 --> 00:22:02,032
Speaker 1: seven and has never been seen since.

411
00:22:02,792 --> 00:22:04,472
Speaker 2: Up next, Sally reveals.

412
00:22:04,151 --> 00:22:07,951
Speaker 1: The explanation police gave her about her mother's disappearance, a

413
00:22:07,992 --> 00:22:16,471
Speaker 1: story that was not only misleading but completely incorrect. So

414
00:22:16,552 --> 00:22:19,712
Speaker 1: you have the feelings something's wrong. You're starting to find

415
00:22:19,752 --> 00:22:23,032
Speaker 1: evidence that something is definitely wrong. So you are taking

416
00:22:23,071 --> 00:22:25,351
Speaker 1: this to police at this stage, and this is a

417
00:22:25,391 --> 00:22:30,032
Speaker 1: thread that runs through this story quite significantly in whether

418
00:22:30,071 --> 00:22:33,311
Speaker 1: it's inaction from the New South Wales Police, whether it's

419
00:22:33,871 --> 00:22:37,032
Speaker 1: you being told that you can't access things due to

420
00:22:37,071 --> 00:22:40,272
Speaker 1: privacy reasons. But I'd like you to give me some

421
00:22:40,431 --> 00:22:43,831
Speaker 1: idea of and this is a complex one because it's

422
00:22:43,831 --> 00:22:45,951
Speaker 1: not just New South Wales Police, it's Queensland Police and

423
00:22:45,992 --> 00:22:50,232
Speaker 1: it's a lot of agencies working sort of sometimes side

424
00:22:50,232 --> 00:22:52,591
Speaker 1: by side, sometimes independently to try and find your mum.

425
00:22:53,192 --> 00:22:54,671
Speaker 1: But can you give us an idea of how the

426
00:22:54,712 --> 00:22:58,672
Speaker 1: police investigation into your mum's disappearance has been handled from

427
00:22:58,752 --> 00:23:02,391
Speaker 1: those very beginning stages through to the inquest. And this

428
00:23:02,431 --> 00:23:05,192
Speaker 1: is thirty years worth of information, so I understand it's

429
00:23:05,232 --> 00:23:08,992
Speaker 1: a lot. Do you feel police have handled this well?

430
00:23:09,032 --> 00:23:11,752
Speaker 3: Not very well? If I can just put it out

431
00:23:11,792 --> 00:23:17,552
Speaker 3: there straight off the cuff. The situation was after finding

432
00:23:17,552 --> 00:23:20,552
Speaker 3: out that money was coming out a mum's bank account,

433
00:23:20,752 --> 00:23:23,311
Speaker 3: Chris and I went straight down to Byron Bay and

434
00:23:23,631 --> 00:23:27,712
Speaker 3: took one of mum's photos and walked around the streets,

435
00:23:27,831 --> 00:23:30,391
Speaker 3: went to the bank and the guy at the bank

436
00:23:30,911 --> 00:23:34,391
Speaker 3: had a very unusual manner. He shook the photo and

437
00:23:34,472 --> 00:23:37,191
Speaker 3: asked me we actually shook the photo and said that

438
00:23:37,272 --> 00:23:39,792
Speaker 3: rings a bell and then walked into an office behind

439
00:23:39,911 --> 00:23:42,872
Speaker 3: him and came out, closed the door behind him, came out,

440
00:23:42,952 --> 00:23:45,752
Speaker 3: took a photo of a photocopy of it at the photocopier,

441
00:23:46,272 --> 00:23:47,631
Speaker 3: and walked over to me and said, what would you

442
00:23:47,671 --> 00:23:48,952
Speaker 3: like me to say to her if I see her?

443
00:23:49,752 --> 00:23:52,712
Speaker 3: And I just panicked. I was like, something is very

444
00:23:52,752 --> 00:23:55,431
Speaker 3: wrong here? What is going on? So well? Be lined

445
00:23:55,431 --> 00:23:59,951
Speaker 3: it around to Byron Bay Police station and this is

446
00:23:59,952 --> 00:24:03,672
Speaker 3: where it all gets a bit messy. They didn't take

447
00:24:03,712 --> 00:24:08,151
Speaker 3: a formal statement from me or me down. I stood

448
00:24:08,151 --> 00:24:12,952
Speaker 3: at the counter is my recollection and he just took

449
00:24:12,992 --> 00:24:18,071
Speaker 3: down notes in his notebook. And ten days ish later

450
00:24:18,591 --> 00:24:21,712
Speaker 3: I got a phone call from a man who I

451
00:24:21,752 --> 00:24:24,512
Speaker 3: believe was the same guy who I spoke to at

452
00:24:24,552 --> 00:24:27,631
Speaker 3: the police station, telling me that they'd located my mum

453
00:24:28,111 --> 00:24:29,751
Speaker 3: and that she didn't want anyone to know where she

454
00:24:29,831 --> 00:24:34,512
Speaker 3: is or what she's doing. I went back and told

455
00:24:34,512 --> 00:24:38,151
Speaker 3: my grandfather this information and he said, well, I'm not

456
00:24:38,192 --> 00:24:43,951
Speaker 3: satisfied with that, and he approached the Salvation Army Missing

457
00:24:43,952 --> 00:24:47,712
Speaker 3: persons unit here in Queensland and he started to work

458
00:24:47,712 --> 00:24:51,591
Speaker 3: with them, and that's where Queensland Police came into the mix.

459
00:24:52,111 --> 00:24:57,632
Speaker 3: Is my understanding and Queensland Police also have said, and

460
00:24:58,431 --> 00:25:01,192
Speaker 3: the Salvation Army told my grandfather in a letter which

461
00:25:01,272 --> 00:25:07,711
Speaker 3: I have that they had spoken to banks security and

462
00:25:07,752 --> 00:25:12,552
Speaker 3: bank security are like the police, and they confirmed that

463
00:25:12,631 --> 00:25:15,591
Speaker 3: it was your daughter Marion who came into the bank

464
00:25:15,792 --> 00:25:18,991
Speaker 3: and spoke to a bank teller that she wanted to

465
00:25:18,992 --> 00:25:21,831
Speaker 3: start a new life and withdrew the balance of her

466
00:25:21,871 --> 00:25:27,391
Speaker 3: bank account. So I have that in writing from Missing

467
00:25:27,431 --> 00:25:31,711
Speaker 3: Persons through the Salvation Army. It's come about at the

468
00:25:31,752 --> 00:25:36,111
Speaker 3: inquest that Queensland Police confirmed that and the Salvation Army.

469
00:25:36,992 --> 00:25:41,032
Speaker 3: The lady actually who was working with my grandfather who

470
00:25:41,071 --> 00:25:43,351
Speaker 3: is now very early came on to the stand, couldn't

471
00:25:43,391 --> 00:25:45,351
Speaker 3: remember it, but it's her name on the letter, so

472
00:25:45,472 --> 00:25:47,352
Speaker 3: she was like, well, obviously I wrote it because it's

473
00:25:47,391 --> 00:25:51,111
Speaker 3: my name, but said that sometimes it can be described

474
00:25:51,192 --> 00:25:53,311
Speaker 3: by somebody else and her just sign off on it.

475
00:25:53,792 --> 00:25:58,272
Speaker 3: At the time, and Queensland Police and New South Wales

476
00:25:58,311 --> 00:26:01,591
Speaker 3: Police through the inquest both confirmed that they'd never spoken

477
00:26:01,671 --> 00:26:03,111
Speaker 3: to or sited my mum.

478
00:26:03,591 --> 00:26:05,711
Speaker 1: That must have been heartbreaking to be told that at

479
00:26:05,712 --> 00:26:08,711
Speaker 1: the time, both you and your brother, because you've had

480
00:26:08,752 --> 00:26:10,871
Speaker 1: a very close relationship with your ma'ma up to that point,

481
00:26:10,911 --> 00:26:13,751
Speaker 1: and you're worried about her. What was that like to

482
00:26:13,831 --> 00:26:18,272
Speaker 1: hear that she potentially didn't want to have anything to

483
00:26:18,272 --> 00:26:20,912
Speaker 1: do with you. That must have killed you, guys.

484
00:26:21,911 --> 00:26:24,752
Speaker 3: Funny that you say that my brother ended up taking

485
00:26:24,752 --> 00:26:28,671
Speaker 3: his own life. He had a different experience with me.

486
00:26:29,431 --> 00:26:31,552
Speaker 3: The story gets a bit long in the tooth here,

487
00:26:31,591 --> 00:26:37,071
Speaker 3: but in short, my mum remarried my stepfather and he

488
00:26:37,111 --> 00:26:40,151
Speaker 3: didn't get along very well with Owen, my brother, and

489
00:26:40,752 --> 00:26:43,551
Speaker 3: it was a decision that Owen would go and live

490
00:26:43,591 --> 00:26:47,391
Speaker 3: with my dad, boys being boys. My dad was in

491
00:26:47,431 --> 00:26:50,711
Speaker 3: the Army Reserve, he played on motorbikes, and you know,

492
00:26:51,192 --> 00:26:53,672
Speaker 3: it probably had a better life for Owen really than

493
00:26:54,071 --> 00:26:57,192
Speaker 3: what we had living with my stepfather where he didn't

494
00:26:57,232 --> 00:27:01,751
Speaker 3: get along with And so for Owen, I feel like

495
00:27:02,591 --> 00:27:08,152
Speaker 3: he had abandonment issues from a young age with that happening.

496
00:27:08,232 --> 00:27:10,991
Speaker 3: In hindsight, and I do believe Mum thought she was

497
00:27:11,032 --> 00:27:13,392
Speaker 3: doing the right thing. She was trying to keep everybody

498
00:27:13,391 --> 00:27:17,111
Speaker 3: happy and balance the balls rather than having another divorced

499
00:27:17,871 --> 00:27:21,151
Speaker 3: marriage and a broken family. So I think she was

500
00:27:21,272 --> 00:27:23,791
Speaker 3: just trying to manage it the best way she knew.

501
00:27:24,792 --> 00:27:26,951
Speaker 3: I personally don't think that was a good decision, but

502
00:27:27,311 --> 00:27:29,912
Speaker 3: you know, you can't go back and change time. But

503
00:27:29,952 --> 00:27:32,991
Speaker 3: for oh and hearing that they'd found her and that

504
00:27:33,032 --> 00:27:35,911
Speaker 3: she didn't want anything to do with us again absolutely

505
00:27:35,911 --> 00:27:39,831
Speaker 3: crushed him, and a few years later he took his

506
00:27:39,871 --> 00:27:43,792
Speaker 3: own life, which absolutely devastated me. As I said before,

507
00:27:43,831 --> 00:27:46,272
Speaker 3: we were only seventeen months apart, so we were very

508
00:27:46,311 --> 00:27:49,231
Speaker 3: close growing up and completely ripped my heart out of

509
00:27:49,232 --> 00:27:53,151
Speaker 3: my chest when he died, very unnecessarily, and so to

510
00:27:53,192 --> 00:27:56,431
Speaker 3: hear that those words that were spoken to us and

511
00:27:56,472 --> 00:27:58,431
Speaker 3: if we just stopped for a second. I've been really

512
00:27:58,472 --> 00:28:03,111
Speaker 3: thinking about this a lot, as in my world that

513
00:28:03,151 --> 00:28:05,712
Speaker 3: I am in right now, the same age my mum

514
00:28:05,871 --> 00:28:08,311
Speaker 3: was when she we're missing, as opposed to my twenty three,

515
00:28:08,391 --> 00:28:13,311
Speaker 3: twenty four year old self. I'm actually devastated that the

516
00:28:13,431 --> 00:28:19,792
Speaker 3: delivery of those messages to us was so heartless and careless,

517
00:28:20,992 --> 00:28:24,311
Speaker 3: and I still haven't even had an apology from anybody

518
00:28:24,351 --> 00:28:28,911
Speaker 3: for that. You know, the woman who came on the

519
00:28:28,952 --> 00:28:33,792
Speaker 3: stand from Queensland Police, her comment at the inquest was, oh, yeah,

520
00:28:33,871 --> 00:28:38,112
Speaker 3: we liked to clean them up quick, referring to cleaning

521
00:28:38,192 --> 00:28:40,872
Speaker 3: up cases and getting them ticked off the box so

522
00:28:40,911 --> 00:28:43,352
Speaker 3: that they can file it Oh, yeah, we've done it.

523
00:28:43,472 --> 00:28:46,511
Speaker 3: We clean them up quick. And my mouth dropped on

524
00:28:46,592 --> 00:28:50,032
Speaker 3: the floor when she said that. I thought, how disgusting.

525
00:28:50,872 --> 00:28:55,112
Speaker 3: What a disgraceful term to use when you're talking about

526
00:28:55,152 --> 00:28:58,952
Speaker 3: a missing person's case and that woman is still missing today.

527
00:29:00,552 --> 00:29:01,671
Speaker 3: Absolutely heartbreaking.

528
00:29:03,112 --> 00:29:05,112
Speaker 1: This is something you talk about quite a bit, especially

529
00:29:05,112 --> 00:29:09,872
Speaker 1: in your new podcast, is how much you and the

530
00:29:09,911 --> 00:29:13,192
Speaker 1: people around you have been retraumatized over and over through

531
00:29:13,232 --> 00:29:13,991
Speaker 1: this experience.

532
00:29:14,072 --> 00:29:17,392
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that I felt.

533
00:29:17,232 --> 00:29:19,352
Speaker 1: Myself so wound up as you were talking about how

534
00:29:19,352 --> 00:29:21,152
Speaker 1: difficult it was for you to get your mum's death

535
00:29:21,192 --> 00:29:25,672
Speaker 1: certificate after the inquest report decided that she was most

536
00:29:25,712 --> 00:29:29,191
Speaker 1: probably deceased at this stage, and just the red tape

537
00:29:29,272 --> 00:29:32,392
Speaker 1: and the difficulty you have dealing with government departments and

538
00:29:33,072 --> 00:29:38,191
Speaker 1: with businesses like banks and all of that is just

539
00:29:38,192 --> 00:29:40,592
Speaker 1: traumatizing you, guys, over and over and over again because

540
00:29:40,632 --> 00:29:41,032
Speaker 1: it's not.

541
00:29:41,032 --> 00:29:41,672
Speaker 2: An easy thing.

542
00:29:42,431 --> 00:29:44,992
Speaker 1: And I guess, as you say in these podcasts, there's

543
00:29:45,032 --> 00:29:46,832
Speaker 1: reasons why these things are in place, because no one

544
00:29:46,872 --> 00:29:50,191
Speaker 1: wants to have their identity stolen and things taken. But

545
00:29:50,272 --> 00:29:54,191
Speaker 1: for you, you essentially have to go in fighting every

546
00:29:54,232 --> 00:29:57,751
Speaker 1: single time you try and like access your mom's super

547
00:29:58,072 --> 00:30:00,112
Speaker 1: access the money that was left over in her bank accounts,

548
00:30:00,112 --> 00:30:02,312
Speaker 1: try and tie up all those loose ends to finish

549
00:30:02,352 --> 00:30:06,592
Speaker 1: at all? Is there an end to the retraumatization you

550
00:30:07,192 --> 00:30:09,792
Speaker 1: continue on this journey when you still don't have an answer.

551
00:30:10,712 --> 00:30:14,112
Speaker 3: I refer to it as trauma on repeat. The doors

552
00:30:14,152 --> 00:30:17,312
Speaker 3: that have been shut in my face have just been astounding,

553
00:30:17,352 --> 00:30:21,792
Speaker 3: And I think being so open and honest about my

554
00:30:21,872 --> 00:30:26,832
Speaker 3: experience in the podcast allows people an opportunity to learn,

555
00:30:27,392 --> 00:30:31,272
Speaker 3: and I'm hoping that departments and government departments and people

556
00:30:31,272 --> 00:30:35,352
Speaker 3: who work in those areas listen to what I'm saying

557
00:30:35,472 --> 00:30:37,832
Speaker 3: and actually try and make a difference, even if it's

558
00:30:37,872 --> 00:30:40,352
Speaker 3: just the tone that they use when they're talking to

559
00:30:40,392 --> 00:30:43,232
Speaker 3: somebody who has a missing person. You know. I make

560
00:30:43,312 --> 00:30:46,432
Speaker 3: reference to one part of the journey where I ring

561
00:30:46,592 --> 00:30:50,992
Speaker 3: Archives National Archives here in Queensland and said, my mum's

562
00:30:50,992 --> 00:30:54,352
Speaker 3: a missing person. She changed her name in nineteen ninety seven.

563
00:30:54,431 --> 00:30:57,032
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering if you could tell me the correct spelling.

564
00:30:57,431 --> 00:31:00,832
Speaker 3: That was all I was after. It's an unusual name, Ramchel,

565
00:31:01,152 --> 00:31:03,312
Speaker 3: and I just wasn't sure if I was spelling it

566
00:31:03,431 --> 00:31:06,911
Speaker 3: the right way, and I didn't have any documentation at

567
00:31:06,952 --> 00:31:10,671
Speaker 3: that moment because everything was like lockdown from me. I

568
00:31:10,712 --> 00:31:13,872
Speaker 3: was getting blank, big black pages in brief of evidence

569
00:31:13,911 --> 00:31:17,672
Speaker 3: and freedom of information that they blocked out from me seeing.

570
00:31:18,792 --> 00:31:23,152
Speaker 3: So she said, no, can't tell you, And I said, okay,

571
00:31:23,152 --> 00:31:26,632
Speaker 3: well due to privacy. And I said, okay, Well, when

572
00:31:26,712 --> 00:31:30,112
Speaker 3: is the presumption of death come into play with a

573
00:31:30,152 --> 00:31:32,911
Speaker 3: missing person because she's obviously not going to be alive forever,

574
00:31:33,152 --> 00:31:36,272
Speaker 3: even if she thinks she's alive now, Still, when does

575
00:31:36,312 --> 00:31:38,671
Speaker 3: that come into play? Oh? It won't. It's got a

576
00:31:38,792 --> 00:31:41,112
Speaker 3: hundred year lock on it. I said, So you're telling

577
00:31:41,112 --> 00:31:43,352
Speaker 3: me that even after I passed away, my children won't

578
00:31:43,352 --> 00:31:46,712
Speaker 3: be able to access that information about how her name

579
00:31:46,792 --> 00:31:49,991
Speaker 3: was spelled when she changed her name, that's correct. I

580
00:31:50,032 --> 00:31:53,751
Speaker 3: then rang back some time later. I can't remember exactly

581
00:31:53,832 --> 00:31:57,712
Speaker 3: how many weeks months it was, and I just removed

582
00:31:57,712 --> 00:32:01,392
Speaker 3: the word missing. Hi, my mum changed her name in

583
00:32:01,431 --> 00:32:03,632
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. I'm just wondering if you can give

584
00:32:03,632 --> 00:32:10,832
Speaker 3: me the spelling. And the woman told me everything, the date, where, how, why, etc.

585
00:32:12,072 --> 00:32:14,592
Speaker 3: We're not why let me she didn't tell me the why.

586
00:32:14,671 --> 00:32:16,112
Speaker 3: That was something we wanted to get.

587
00:32:16,352 --> 00:32:17,472
Speaker 2: That would have been incredible.

588
00:32:17,632 --> 00:32:20,232
Speaker 3: Yes, And it's not on there, unfortunately, because there was

589
00:32:20,272 --> 00:32:22,872
Speaker 3: a lot of talk about this when we found this information,

590
00:32:23,392 --> 00:32:27,312
Speaker 3: and there was supposedly a witness that has you have

591
00:32:27,392 --> 00:32:29,352
Speaker 3: to give a reason why you're changing your name, and

592
00:32:29,392 --> 00:32:33,072
Speaker 3: that is actually not on the document. So yeah, it's

593
00:32:33,472 --> 00:32:37,352
Speaker 3: it's definitely been challenging and mum changing her name has

594
00:32:37,431 --> 00:32:40,992
Speaker 3: definitely put many forks in the road for me. It's

595
00:32:41,032 --> 00:32:41,912
Speaker 3: been very challenging.

596
00:32:42,752 --> 00:32:45,671
Speaker 1: Can tell us a little bit about the connection to

597
00:32:46,312 --> 00:32:50,991
Speaker 1: con man Rick Blum and how he came into the story.

598
00:32:50,992 --> 00:32:53,472
Speaker 1: As you're researching what's happened to your mum, because you've

599
00:32:53,512 --> 00:32:57,232
Speaker 1: been picking up every tiny trail, whether it's a bank statement,

600
00:32:57,272 --> 00:33:00,792
Speaker 1: whether it's a Medicare statement, whether it's a witness sighting,

601
00:33:00,832 --> 00:33:02,991
Speaker 1: like there's all these threads that you're trying to pull together.

602
00:33:03,032 --> 00:33:05,072
Speaker 1: How does Rick Blum come into this conversation?

603
00:33:05,632 --> 00:33:09,471
Speaker 3: Well, when we started The Lady Vanishers, we launched the

604
00:33:09,512 --> 00:33:14,911
Speaker 3: podcast on the first of April in twenty nineteen and

605
00:33:15,911 --> 00:33:19,872
Speaker 3: around May, middle of May, tenth of May, so we're

606
00:33:19,911 --> 00:33:23,711
Speaker 3: around there. We were contacted by a lady called Johani

607
00:33:23,752 --> 00:33:28,432
Speaker 3: Condos and she herself had had a missing person in

608
00:33:28,472 --> 00:33:31,191
Speaker 3: her family and they had done a lot of research

609
00:33:31,472 --> 00:33:34,992
Speaker 3: and used a lot of things like trove and archives

610
00:33:35,552 --> 00:33:40,752
Speaker 3: to be able to find her husband's great grandmother, which

611
00:33:40,792 --> 00:33:45,592
Speaker 3: they did after fifteen years. And so she was listening

612
00:33:45,632 --> 00:33:49,392
Speaker 3: to the podcast. She tells me today that for the

613
00:33:49,431 --> 00:33:52,392
Speaker 3: first time, she's a true crime podcast. So she's been

614
00:33:52,431 --> 00:33:57,952
Speaker 3: listening for twenty odd years religiously to podcasts. And she said, interestingly,

615
00:33:58,192 --> 00:34:00,392
Speaker 3: it's the first time I'd ever heard someone ask for

616
00:34:00,431 --> 00:34:03,312
Speaker 3: help from the public. And she said, so, I just

617
00:34:03,352 --> 00:34:05,272
Speaker 3: thought to myself, what don't I said, She was sick.

618
00:34:05,512 --> 00:34:07,711
Speaker 3: She stayed up till midnight. She was just playing around

619
00:34:07,752 --> 00:34:10,672
Speaker 3: on her computer and she was running the name Ramkel,

620
00:34:11,072 --> 00:34:13,352
Speaker 3: which is the name that mum had changed her name to,

621
00:34:14,232 --> 00:34:19,152
Speaker 3: through all these search engines that she had come across,

622
00:34:19,392 --> 00:34:23,232
Speaker 3: and started to play within her own case, and she

623
00:34:23,312 --> 00:34:28,312
Speaker 3: stumbled across an ad in a newspaper called La Courier Australian.

624
00:34:28,832 --> 00:34:30,991
Speaker 3: It's a newspaper that ran out of Sydney and it's

625
00:34:30,991 --> 00:34:34,272
Speaker 3: a French speaking newspaper. In the newspaper there is an

626
00:34:34,312 --> 00:34:41,191
Speaker 3: advertisement that says a MF. Ramachel and gives how old

627
00:34:41,192 --> 00:34:43,512
Speaker 3: he is at that time. So this ad was placed

628
00:34:43,551 --> 00:34:47,352
Speaker 3: in around the late end of nineteen ninety four and

629
00:34:48,511 --> 00:34:52,752
Speaker 3: it talks about him being a polyglot, so speaking multiple languages,

630
00:34:53,471 --> 00:34:57,712
Speaker 3: good looking, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, looking for a relationship,

631
00:34:57,752 --> 00:35:01,631
Speaker 3: potential marriage. And there's a PO box connected to the

632
00:35:01,672 --> 00:35:06,672
Speaker 3: ad for people to connect with this person, and the

633
00:35:06,712 --> 00:35:10,471
Speaker 3: po boxes based in Lenox Heads, So for those of

634
00:35:10,511 --> 00:35:14,071
Speaker 3: you who aren't geographically in touch with that, Lenox is

635
00:35:14,112 --> 00:35:17,071
Speaker 3: the next suburb to Byron Bay. There was a phone

636
00:35:17,152 --> 00:35:20,551
Speaker 3: number as well, and our brain started to go a

637
00:35:20,551 --> 00:35:23,232
Speaker 3: million miles an hour. So the only two connectors we

638
00:35:23,312 --> 00:35:27,632
Speaker 3: had in the entire of Australia was with the name Ramickel.

639
00:35:27,792 --> 00:35:30,152
Speaker 3: Was my mum and this ad in the paper that

640
00:35:30,312 --> 00:35:33,832
Speaker 3: was it. So we went on this mad search trying

641
00:35:33,872 --> 00:35:37,312
Speaker 3: to find out who this MF. Ramickel is. Turns out

642
00:35:37,312 --> 00:35:42,431
Speaker 3: that M stands for Monsoux and the F stands for Fernande.

643
00:35:42,951 --> 00:35:45,712
Speaker 3: We find fernand Ramachel and we go and knock on

644
00:35:45,752 --> 00:35:48,872
Speaker 3: his door in Luxembourg. The irony and the connector there

645
00:35:48,951 --> 00:35:51,392
Speaker 3: is that mum had written on her outgoing passenger card

646
00:35:51,431 --> 00:35:57,431
Speaker 3: that she was moving to Luxembourg. So again heads are spinning,

647
00:35:57,511 --> 00:36:01,472
Speaker 3: We're like, what is going on? We approach Fernande after

648
00:36:01,792 --> 00:36:05,832
Speaker 3: a very crazy few days with Channel seven back in

649
00:36:05,991 --> 00:36:10,232
Speaker 3: May of twenty nineteen, and he gives us a very

650
00:36:10,232 --> 00:36:13,672
Speaker 3: cold reception. He accuses me of being a gypsy knocking

651
00:36:13,672 --> 00:36:16,431
Speaker 3: on his door asking if he knew who my mom was,

652
00:36:16,911 --> 00:36:18,872
Speaker 3: and it was very confronting for me. I was very

653
00:36:18,872 --> 00:36:21,991
Speaker 3: nervous and didn't know what to expect or who I

654
00:36:22,072 --> 00:36:24,832
Speaker 3: was talking to. And at that point I thought, you know,

655
00:36:24,991 --> 00:36:27,911
Speaker 3: this guy obviously has some connection to my mum potentially,

656
00:36:28,752 --> 00:36:35,952
Speaker 3: and turns out, fast forward we find the phone number

657
00:36:35,991 --> 00:36:38,752
Speaker 3: connector so the police hadn't been able to do that.

658
00:36:38,872 --> 00:36:40,872
Speaker 3: We'd given all the information to them, they'd come back

659
00:36:40,872 --> 00:36:43,511
Speaker 3: and said, tell STRA have no records. They couldn't go

660
00:36:43,592 --> 00:36:46,231
Speaker 3: back far enough to nineteen ninety four to see who

661
00:36:46,232 --> 00:36:48,551
Speaker 3: owned that phone number or what that phone number was

662
00:36:48,551 --> 00:36:51,431
Speaker 3: connected to. And we'd spoken about this on the podcast,

663
00:36:51,471 --> 00:36:53,752
Speaker 3: and I had a gentleman who lives down in that

664
00:36:53,832 --> 00:36:56,631
Speaker 3: neck of the woods who emailed me and said, look,

665
00:36:57,112 --> 00:37:00,111
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, retiree. I've gone down to the

666
00:37:00,152 --> 00:37:04,631
Speaker 3: local library. I've handscanned thousands of images of the phone

667
00:37:04,672 --> 00:37:06,712
Speaker 3: numbers to see if I can find a connect and

668
00:37:06,752 --> 00:37:09,911
Speaker 3: I think I found it. And so he had been

669
00:37:09,911 --> 00:37:12,991
Speaker 3: able to identify that the phone number was linked to

670
00:37:13,031 --> 00:37:17,111
Speaker 3: a business name called Balan A coin invest and the

671
00:37:17,152 --> 00:37:20,511
Speaker 3: owner of that company was a guy called Frederick de

672
00:37:20,592 --> 00:37:27,272
Speaker 3: Heavindery and his wife. So that that started the ball rolling.

673
00:37:28,471 --> 00:37:30,752
Speaker 3: We then did a huge amount of work. Joni in

674
00:37:30,792 --> 00:37:35,471
Speaker 3: particular dug very deep and started looking into coins and

675
00:37:36,352 --> 00:37:38,071
Speaker 3: you know, you can imagine what we had to do.

676
00:37:38,112 --> 00:37:42,352
Speaker 3: It wasn't an easy task, but in talking to people

677
00:37:42,872 --> 00:37:45,232
Speaker 3: in the coin world, we were able to identify that

678
00:37:46,192 --> 00:37:50,472
Speaker 3: Frederic de Heavindery and mister Rec Bloom are the same person.

679
00:37:51,392 --> 00:37:55,151
Speaker 1: So who is Rick and how do you see his

680
00:37:55,232 --> 00:37:57,152
Speaker 1: story intercepting with Marian's.

681
00:37:59,632 --> 00:38:05,112
Speaker 3: Well, mister Blum or Bloom if you are, it's spelled

682
00:38:05,152 --> 00:38:10,031
Speaker 3: b l Um so plum blom, but over in Luxembourg

683
00:38:10,031 --> 00:38:13,952
Speaker 3: and Belgium it's actually pronounced as Bloom. Just for the record,

684
00:38:14,991 --> 00:38:18,792
Speaker 3: he currently is still living in northern New South Wales.

685
00:38:19,551 --> 00:38:22,591
Speaker 3: He just had his birthday last week. Actually I think

686
00:38:22,632 --> 00:38:27,631
Speaker 3: he's now eighty five eighty six years of age. He

687
00:38:28,551 --> 00:38:31,711
Speaker 3: was a person who was on the stand I think

688
00:38:31,752 --> 00:38:36,911
Speaker 3: thirteen days at my mum's inquest and in the initial

689
00:38:38,192 --> 00:38:42,591
Speaker 3: contact police made with mister Blom about my mum. He

690
00:38:42,672 --> 00:38:47,631
Speaker 3: denied knowing her, and then he went home and he

691
00:38:47,712 --> 00:38:49,911
Speaker 3: called them back the next day and said, actually, I

692
00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:51,832
Speaker 3: do know her and I had an affair with her,

693
00:38:52,152 --> 00:38:53,752
Speaker 3: but I didn't want to say anything in front of

694
00:38:53,752 --> 00:38:59,631
Speaker 3: my wife, and that's where it all started. He has

695
00:38:59,672 --> 00:39:03,031
Speaker 3: admitted to having an affair with my mum at the

696
00:39:03,072 --> 00:39:06,111
Speaker 3: same time that she was selling her house, so he

697
00:39:06,152 --> 00:39:08,632
Speaker 3: made reference to going to her home and seeing a

698
00:39:08,672 --> 00:39:12,192
Speaker 3: for sale sign out the front. His passport leaves the

699
00:39:12,232 --> 00:39:17,232
Speaker 3: country on the Tuesday before my mom flew out of

700
00:39:17,272 --> 00:39:21,832
Speaker 3: the country, so my mum waited until the term finished

701
00:39:21,872 --> 00:39:24,912
Speaker 3: on the Friday, which was the twentieth of June nineteen

702
00:39:24,991 --> 00:39:27,991
Speaker 3: ninety seven, and she flew out on the Sunday, the

703
00:39:28,031 --> 00:39:35,232
Speaker 3: twenty second. Mister Bloom flew on Japan Airlines to Japan,

704
00:39:36,072 --> 00:39:38,232
Speaker 3: and he was asked at the inquest where did you

705
00:39:38,312 --> 00:39:41,312
Speaker 3: stay when you went to Japan, and he said, I

706
00:39:41,352 --> 00:39:47,151
Speaker 3: always stay at Hotel Nico and Narrita, and very quick

707
00:39:47,192 --> 00:39:51,352
Speaker 3: off the mark, no question, no hesitation. The paper that

708
00:39:51,471 --> 00:39:54,312
Speaker 3: mum wrote to me on in that letter I talked

709
00:39:54,312 --> 00:39:58,072
Speaker 3: about before and the matching envelope came from Hotel Nico

710
00:39:58,112 --> 00:40:02,312
Speaker 3: and Narita, So you can imagine me, I was falling

711
00:40:02,312 --> 00:40:05,991
Speaker 3: off my chair many times with the connectors and be

712
00:40:06,112 --> 00:40:10,792
Speaker 3: then coincidences or what whatever people want to refer to them,

713
00:40:10,792 --> 00:40:14,631
Speaker 3: as it's quite quite daunting for me to sit there

714
00:40:14,712 --> 00:40:18,111
Speaker 3: and see these happening. When Mum came back into the

715
00:40:18,152 --> 00:40:20,911
Speaker 3: country on the second of August, mister Blom came in

716
00:40:21,232 --> 00:40:25,712
Speaker 3: flew in two days before, so their timeline overseas is

717
00:40:25,752 --> 00:40:29,952
Speaker 3: pretty much on part. And there's still investigation that Joanie

718
00:40:29,991 --> 00:40:33,192
Speaker 3: and I are working very hard on and pushing for

719
00:40:33,312 --> 00:40:37,352
Speaker 3: authorities to help us with with regards to getting more

720
00:40:37,352 --> 00:40:40,312
Speaker 3: information that we know exists that we've been previously told

721
00:40:40,352 --> 00:40:44,431
Speaker 3: doesn't exist, but going there ourselves, which is what we've

722
00:40:44,471 --> 00:40:46,511
Speaker 3: done and what we talk about in the missing about

723
00:40:46,551 --> 00:40:50,511
Speaker 3: of podcast and we go through our journey overseas in

724
00:40:50,551 --> 00:40:53,551
Speaker 3: finding this information. Is now you know where we're at

725
00:40:53,592 --> 00:40:57,032
Speaker 3: and what we're pushing for more information to be sourced

726
00:40:57,792 --> 00:41:00,071
Speaker 3: through that knowledge that we now have.

727
00:41:01,592 --> 00:41:02,951
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about some of

728
00:41:02,951 --> 00:41:06,032
Speaker 1: the discoveries you have made in making this new podcast,

729
00:41:06,031 --> 00:41:10,392
Speaker 1: because you've followed some pretty interesting trails for this one.

730
00:41:10,392 --> 00:41:13,151
Speaker 1: I mean, you talk openly about the fact that you've

731
00:41:13,192 --> 00:41:18,431
Speaker 1: taken advice from psyekicks and as well as witnesses, like,

732
00:41:18,471 --> 00:41:21,151
Speaker 1: there are so many threads that you are following down.

733
00:41:21,152 --> 00:41:26,032
Speaker 1: You've done searchers with cadaver dogs in places that crime

734
00:41:26,031 --> 00:41:29,991
Speaker 1: stoper phone calls originated from. Like what have you discovered

735
00:41:29,991 --> 00:41:32,152
Speaker 1: and if you've made any progress in finding.

736
00:41:31,872 --> 00:41:34,552
Speaker 2: Out any more about where Marion ended up.

737
00:41:35,232 --> 00:41:37,352
Speaker 3: Well you might have to listen to the podcast.

738
00:41:38,392 --> 00:41:42,192
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can't give away everything obviously any spoilers.

739
00:41:42,192 --> 00:41:46,631
Speaker 3: But look, we connected with some of the women who

740
00:41:46,632 --> 00:41:50,951
Speaker 3: gave evidence at the inquest, who tell the court that

741
00:41:51,031 --> 00:41:55,951
Speaker 3: they had relationships with Rick Blum and their stories behind that.

742
00:41:56,592 --> 00:42:01,031
Speaker 3: There's been some sadness happen. We've lost a couple of

743
00:42:01,072 --> 00:42:04,712
Speaker 3: them in this journey, which has been really devastating, and

744
00:42:04,951 --> 00:42:07,312
Speaker 3: you know, particularly those that I've become quite close to,

745
00:42:08,152 --> 00:42:14,591
Speaker 3: and you know, everyone's getting old, and quite frankly, I'm

746
00:42:14,632 --> 00:42:18,631
Speaker 3: getting really losing. I'm losing my patients. I guess with

747
00:42:19,471 --> 00:42:25,551
Speaker 3: why action is still not being taken with firm evidence

748
00:42:25,592 --> 00:42:28,752
Speaker 3: and firm information that we have and have presented to

749
00:42:28,872 --> 00:42:31,991
Speaker 3: New Southwest Police and to the AFP. You know, I

750
00:42:32,511 --> 00:42:36,352
Speaker 3: just don't see the action happening at a speed that

751
00:42:36,392 --> 00:42:38,951
Speaker 3: it should take. I mean I waited for twenty two

752
00:42:39,072 --> 00:42:41,752
Speaker 3: years before my mum was even recognized as a missing

753
00:42:41,792 --> 00:42:45,471
Speaker 3: person by New Southwest Police and put on the national database.

754
00:42:46,272 --> 00:42:50,072
Speaker 3: I only, you know, just had my DNA uploaded onto

755
00:42:50,072 --> 00:42:52,872
Speaker 3: the system because I found out that the DNA sample

756
00:42:52,951 --> 00:42:56,911
Speaker 3: I gave them back in twenty ten was a voluntary

757
00:42:56,991 --> 00:43:00,631
Speaker 3: sample and they can't actually upload a voluntary sample to

758
00:43:00,672 --> 00:43:06,272
Speaker 3: any database. And then I didn't sign anything. They just

759
00:43:06,392 --> 00:43:08,312
Speaker 3: tell me that they have done it. I have nothing

760
00:43:08,312 --> 00:43:11,872
Speaker 3: in writing. The only ever verbally tell me so's it's

761
00:43:11,872 --> 00:43:14,312
Speaker 3: all that sort of thing that, you know, really is

762
00:43:14,352 --> 00:43:17,711
Speaker 3: troubling for the person living with a missing person and

763
00:43:17,752 --> 00:43:20,392
Speaker 3: that person who's the next of kid who's trying desperately

764
00:43:20,471 --> 00:43:23,312
Speaker 3: to get the answers. I haven't made a lot of

765
00:43:23,312 --> 00:43:27,712
Speaker 3: friends in this space in pushing pushing envelopes and pushing buttons.

766
00:43:27,752 --> 00:43:30,951
Speaker 3: But you know, it gets to the point where, you know,

767
00:43:31,272 --> 00:43:33,392
Speaker 3: how much longer do I have to do this for

768
00:43:34,312 --> 00:43:38,112
Speaker 3: before people do start to pass away and we lose

769
00:43:38,392 --> 00:43:41,631
Speaker 3: more evidence after waiting that long. Already we're at this

770
00:43:41,752 --> 00:43:47,352
Speaker 3: juncture and you know, action needs to be yesterday next.

771
00:43:47,431 --> 00:43:50,911
Speaker 1: What the inquest found about Marian's disappearance and what they

772
00:43:50,951 --> 00:43:51,792
Speaker 1: think happened.

773
00:43:51,551 --> 00:43:56,352
Speaker 2: To her well.

774
00:43:56,392 --> 00:43:59,352
Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, the inquest into your mum's disappearance

775
00:43:59,392 --> 00:44:01,832
Speaker 1: does finally conclude that she has likely passed away.

776
00:44:02,031 --> 00:44:05,512
Speaker 2: Does that change anything for you? I mean other than.

777
00:44:05,951 --> 00:44:08,792
Speaker 1: Physical getting a death stiviget, which is a nightmare in itself,

778
00:44:08,872 --> 00:44:10,631
Speaker 1: being able to do all of those things, Like, does

779
00:44:10,672 --> 00:44:13,872
Speaker 1: it change anything for you emotionally when that decision is

780
00:44:13,911 --> 00:44:14,431
Speaker 1: handed down.

781
00:44:15,232 --> 00:44:18,352
Speaker 3: It's a very it's a very challenging time of life.

782
00:44:18,392 --> 00:44:22,231
Speaker 3: I'm going to be honest, because I have always felt

783
00:44:22,272 --> 00:44:24,792
Speaker 3: in my heart that my mum wasn't alive. I couldn't

784
00:44:24,792 --> 00:44:27,192
Speaker 3: fathom that she wouldn't come to my wedding, that she

785
00:44:27,232 --> 00:44:31,071
Speaker 3: wouldn't come to see her grandchildren, she wouldn't be at

786
00:44:31,072 --> 00:44:33,991
Speaker 3: Owen's funeral, like there was some massive things like both

787
00:44:33,991 --> 00:44:37,951
Speaker 3: her parents have passed away. I just don't believe, and

788
00:44:37,991 --> 00:44:40,551
Speaker 3: I haven't believed for quite a long time. I had

789
00:44:40,632 --> 00:44:43,712
Speaker 3: hope that she was alive and well like they told me.

790
00:44:43,832 --> 00:44:46,431
Speaker 3: But the more and more I kept digging, the more

791
00:44:46,431 --> 00:44:48,471
Speaker 3: and more I just was like, my gut feeling was

792
00:44:48,551 --> 00:44:52,191
Speaker 3: something is not right. So to hear the coroner say

793
00:44:52,551 --> 00:44:56,832
Speaker 3: what I thought was quite cathartic, like I feel like

794
00:44:57,471 --> 00:45:00,272
Speaker 3: I needed to hear it, it needed to happen, and

795
00:45:00,312 --> 00:45:03,071
Speaker 3: it allowed me to move on. But I'm in such

796
00:45:03,072 --> 00:45:06,712
Speaker 3: a world now where my emotions about my mum I

797
00:45:06,832 --> 00:45:08,792
Speaker 3: kind of have to put them to the side to

798
00:45:08,832 --> 00:45:11,911
Speaker 3: be able to do this. Otherwise I'd be a babbling mess,

799
00:45:11,951 --> 00:45:16,151
Speaker 3: I think. So I'm more about being a daughter who's

800
00:45:16,152 --> 00:45:18,991
Speaker 3: looking for her mum from an investigative point of view,

801
00:45:19,031 --> 00:45:23,551
Speaker 3: and someone who's emotionally invested in getting the information and

802
00:45:23,592 --> 00:45:26,872
Speaker 3: getting the truth and seeking justice and making sure my

803
00:45:26,991 --> 00:45:31,071
Speaker 3: mum's not forgotten more than I am about the emotional

804
00:45:31,112 --> 00:45:35,192
Speaker 3: side of my mum being deceased. In saying that allowing

805
00:45:35,272 --> 00:45:38,312
Speaker 3: me a death certificate has meant that I can go

806
00:45:38,392 --> 00:45:41,832
Speaker 3: through the process that people go through when someone passes away,

807
00:45:42,431 --> 00:45:45,911
Speaker 3: I'd like to mention at this point that when you

808
00:45:45,991 --> 00:45:48,952
Speaker 3: might remember I just said about this salvation, Army wrote

809
00:45:49,152 --> 00:45:51,512
Speaker 3: in a letter to my grandfather that my mum withdrew

810
00:45:51,592 --> 00:45:54,632
Speaker 3: the balance of her bank account. She still had money

811
00:45:54,632 --> 00:45:58,911
Speaker 3: sitting in her bank account, and the kicker was the

812
00:45:58,951 --> 00:46:03,711
Speaker 3: Commonwealth Bank were continuing to take the monthly fee from

813
00:46:03,752 --> 00:46:07,392
Speaker 3: her bank account for twenty seven years. Is the guy

814
00:46:07,431 --> 00:46:10,631
Speaker 3: who came on at the Inquest as a representative to

815
00:46:10,752 --> 00:46:15,511
Speaker 3: Commonwealth Bank. He recognized that and he had the charges reversed.

816
00:46:16,431 --> 00:46:20,751
Speaker 3: But just those sorts of little things, there's just very

817
00:46:20,991 --> 00:46:24,352
Speaker 3: lack of and in the world of the missing and

818
00:46:24,392 --> 00:46:27,431
Speaker 3: people not really helping if you don't have if you

819
00:46:27,431 --> 00:46:30,152
Speaker 3: don't have a death certificate. I know of other cases

820
00:46:30,951 --> 00:46:33,671
Speaker 3: and people who I now would call my friends in

821
00:46:33,712 --> 00:46:39,151
Speaker 3: this space whereby let's say a husband goes missing and

822
00:46:39,192 --> 00:46:44,631
Speaker 3: they the police declare that he's actually just left. He

823
00:46:44,672 --> 00:46:47,431
Speaker 3: hasn't actually say same thing as my mum. They just said, oh, well,

824
00:46:47,471 --> 00:46:49,392
Speaker 3: she clearly doesn't want anything to do with you guys,

825
00:46:49,431 --> 00:46:51,631
Speaker 3: and so she's left on her own account and her

826
00:46:51,632 --> 00:46:56,192
Speaker 3: privacy matters, is what they kept telling me. And in

827
00:46:56,232 --> 00:47:01,352
Speaker 3: the instance of this scenario, the husband goes missing, they

828
00:47:01,352 --> 00:47:04,832
Speaker 3: don't list him as a missing person, they don't go

829
00:47:04,872 --> 00:47:09,192
Speaker 3: to Inquest for a decade, and therefore there's no death

830
00:47:09,232 --> 00:47:14,431
Speaker 3: certificate and his wife can't even sell their home because

831
00:47:14,471 --> 00:47:21,031
Speaker 3: there's no death certificate. So you know, in the in

832
00:47:21,072 --> 00:47:23,511
Speaker 3: the situation, like for a long term missing person, you

833
00:47:23,632 --> 00:47:26,951
Speaker 3: regarded long term missing if you're missing longer than three months,

834
00:47:27,392 --> 00:47:31,472
Speaker 3: And I think there needs to be more in place

835
00:47:32,392 --> 00:47:34,832
Speaker 3: There's a thing called a P seventy nine B form

836
00:47:35,511 --> 00:47:38,752
Speaker 3: which police are supposed to send to the coroner after

837
00:47:38,792 --> 00:47:41,312
Speaker 3: twelve months of a person going missing if they haven't

838
00:47:41,312 --> 00:47:45,312
Speaker 3: been seen nor cited. And I can see in police

839
00:47:45,352 --> 00:47:48,872
Speaker 3: records where the Coroners Court are requesting that information from

840
00:47:48,911 --> 00:47:53,112
Speaker 3: New South Wales police on repeat, and it's just getting denied.

841
00:47:53,352 --> 00:47:57,551
Speaker 3: They're not responding, they're not replying. That P seventy nine

842
00:47:57,592 --> 00:48:00,192
Speaker 3: B form did not get done until I went public

843
00:48:00,232 --> 00:48:04,272
Speaker 3: and did a podcast. So shouldn't be up to the family,

844
00:48:04,752 --> 00:48:07,312
Speaker 3: should it to be pushing the envelope to get these

845
00:48:07,312 --> 00:48:10,192
Speaker 3: things done when they're policy and procedures that need to

846
00:48:10,232 --> 00:48:10,712
Speaker 3: be followed.

847
00:48:11,312 --> 00:48:15,671
Speaker 1: It's so hard to listen to the stone walling that's

848
00:48:15,672 --> 00:48:18,192
Speaker 1: happened to you and the brick walls you find yourself

849
00:48:18,272 --> 00:48:20,951
Speaker 1: up against and understand how you can keep going, like

850
00:48:21,112 --> 00:48:25,592
Speaker 1: to hit them so many times and then just keep going.

851
00:48:25,672 --> 00:48:29,272
Speaker 1: What motivates you this far down the track? Is it

852
00:48:29,352 --> 00:48:30,672
Speaker 1: just the thought of your mum in the back of

853
00:48:30,712 --> 00:48:33,671
Speaker 1: your head and just wanting to make sure that her

854
00:48:33,712 --> 00:48:35,112
Speaker 1: story doesn't just get forgotten?

855
00:48:35,192 --> 00:48:36,511
Speaker 2: What is it that motivates you?

856
00:48:36,551 --> 00:48:40,592
Speaker 3: Now? It's been hard for me to process that Actually,

857
00:48:40,672 --> 00:48:43,792
Speaker 3: I get asked that a lot when I'm talking to people,

858
00:48:43,872 --> 00:48:50,192
Speaker 3: and I don't really know why I keep driving myself,

859
00:48:50,312 --> 00:48:52,872
Speaker 3: because it does drive me crazy, But I think it's

860
00:48:53,031 --> 00:48:56,551
Speaker 3: just me as a person. I'm very driven. I don't

861
00:48:56,632 --> 00:49:01,111
Speaker 3: take no for an answer. I want to make sure

862
00:49:01,232 --> 00:49:05,112
Speaker 3: that the job is getting done properly and the answers

863
00:49:05,112 --> 00:49:08,592
Speaker 3: are found. But at the same time, the emotional side

864
00:49:08,592 --> 00:49:13,711
Speaker 3: of me, I'm worried that if I stop, my mum

865
00:49:13,712 --> 00:49:16,832
Speaker 3: will be forgotten again. My mom was a taboo subject

866
00:49:16,832 --> 00:49:19,431
Speaker 3: for a very long time. My grandmother didn't talk to

867
00:49:19,471 --> 00:49:23,151
Speaker 3: me about it, her sisters didn't want to talk about it.

868
00:49:24,192 --> 00:49:27,151
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have died my dad, you know. I don't

869
00:49:27,152 --> 00:49:29,072
Speaker 3: talk to my dad about my mom. They got divorced

870
00:49:29,072 --> 00:49:31,951
Speaker 3: when I was seven, so I really had no one

871
00:49:31,991 --> 00:49:36,072
Speaker 3: to talk to you about it other than my husband

872
00:49:36,392 --> 00:49:39,232
Speaker 3: and my kids, and you know, I didn't want to

873
00:49:39,232 --> 00:49:45,071
Speaker 3: burden them with the upset and the challenge that it

874
00:49:45,152 --> 00:49:48,071
Speaker 3: is to have a missing person. I didn't have connections

875
00:49:48,112 --> 00:49:51,832
Speaker 3: with anybody in the missing person world. I didn't have

876
00:49:52,911 --> 00:49:56,432
Speaker 3: friends and family of missing persons contact me and say, hey, Sally,

877
00:49:56,431 --> 00:49:58,832
Speaker 3: we'd like to offer you some support or some care

878
00:49:59,392 --> 00:50:02,152
Speaker 3: because my mom wasn't known to be a missing person.

879
00:50:02,712 --> 00:50:07,072
Speaker 3: So therefore I my mom's case the same actually fell

880
00:50:07,152 --> 00:50:10,752
Speaker 3: off the rich Dar scale and I was left to

881
00:50:10,752 --> 00:50:15,031
Speaker 3: sort of muddle along in my own world, having a

882
00:50:15,072 --> 00:50:18,152
Speaker 3: Facebook page with less than a thousand followers saying please

883
00:50:18,192 --> 00:50:22,152
Speaker 3: help me. Someone knows something. And it wasn't until we

884
00:50:23,152 --> 00:50:26,672
Speaker 3: launched the Lady Vanishers and you have a big media

885
00:50:26,752 --> 00:50:29,031
Speaker 3: network behind you that actually can put it on the

886
00:50:29,072 --> 00:50:32,431
Speaker 3: news at nighttime. We're going into the Australian newspaper on

887
00:50:32,471 --> 00:50:36,312
Speaker 3: the weekly. That's how we got to where I am today,

888
00:50:36,832 --> 00:50:39,712
Speaker 3: where people sat up and took notice and went actually

889
00:50:39,752 --> 00:50:44,191
Speaker 3: marrying is missing and the coroner deeming that yes there's

890
00:50:44,192 --> 00:50:46,071
Speaker 3: a problem here, we need to have an inquest and

891
00:50:46,112 --> 00:50:49,312
Speaker 3: go to inquest. And you know the inquest they told

892
00:50:49,312 --> 00:50:53,192
Speaker 3: me it was an unprecedented amount of days. And you

893
00:50:53,232 --> 00:50:57,072
Speaker 3: know they've had to put it back with the unsolved

894
00:50:57,112 --> 00:51:00,712
Speaker 3: homicide team. And you know, I asked Gary Jubilan when

895
00:51:00,712 --> 00:51:02,991
Speaker 3: I was talking to him on his podcast, I Catch

896
00:51:03,072 --> 00:51:05,832
Speaker 3: Killers recently, and I said, look, in Layman's terms, what

897
00:51:05,872 --> 00:51:08,151
Speaker 3: does that mean for me in your opinion? If they're

898
00:51:08,152 --> 00:51:11,191
Speaker 3: putting it with the unsolved homicide as opposed to going

899
00:51:11,192 --> 00:51:14,352
Speaker 3: back to Missing Persons unit. What does that tell you,

900
00:51:15,431 --> 00:51:20,471
Speaker 3: is it is she regarded as being murdered or foul

901
00:51:20,551 --> 00:51:22,872
Speaker 3: play And he said yes, that's where it would sit.

902
00:51:23,072 --> 00:51:25,911
Speaker 3: So it would be an indication that the coroner believes

903
00:51:25,911 --> 00:51:28,511
Speaker 3: there's more work to be done, so she places it

904
00:51:28,592 --> 00:51:31,631
Speaker 3: back with unsolved homicide to do the work on that

905
00:51:31,752 --> 00:51:34,752
Speaker 3: now unsolved homicide told me at the findings before we

906
00:51:34,792 --> 00:51:38,751
Speaker 3: walked in and hear her findings that they have eight

907
00:51:38,832 --> 00:51:42,312
Speaker 3: hundred cases and they need to prioritize that my mum's

908
00:51:42,312 --> 00:51:45,792
Speaker 3: case is open but inactive after everything we've found and

909
00:51:45,832 --> 00:51:49,911
Speaker 3: everything we've presented. That's what they told me, and it

910
00:51:49,991 --> 00:51:52,312
Speaker 3: just made me. That was probably one of the hardest

911
00:51:52,312 --> 00:51:54,911
Speaker 3: things I've had anyone tell me, because I just felt

912
00:51:55,511 --> 00:51:57,752
Speaker 3: like all the wind was taken out of my sales

913
00:51:58,431 --> 00:52:02,112
Speaker 3: after everything I've done and everything I've put myself through emotionally.

914
00:52:02,112 --> 00:52:05,071
Speaker 3: I'm on heart medication now because my resting heart rate

915
00:52:05,152 --> 00:52:07,312
Speaker 3: was getting up to one hundred he beats a minute

916
00:52:08,352 --> 00:52:11,392
Speaker 3: lying on a bed having an angiogram at the doctors

917
00:52:11,392 --> 00:52:14,191
Speaker 3: and they're likeing, and I think the machine's broken. No, no, no,

918
00:52:14,272 --> 00:52:18,471
Speaker 3: that's just my resting heart rate because I've just been

919
00:52:18,672 --> 00:52:21,991
Speaker 3: reading in quest findings and documents and what people are

920
00:52:22,031 --> 00:52:25,631
Speaker 3: saying about me, and you know, why am I doing this?

921
00:52:25,752 --> 00:52:29,192
Speaker 3: And what for? What for? And Mum's sisters sitting there

922
00:52:29,712 --> 00:52:35,352
Speaker 3: saying untrus about my relationship with my mum and absolutely heartbreaking,

923
00:52:36,072 --> 00:52:38,231
Speaker 3: you know. And at the end of the day, I'm

924
00:52:38,232 --> 00:52:41,231
Speaker 3: not trying to be antagonistic or trying to cause any

925
00:52:41,232 --> 00:52:44,232
Speaker 3: problems for anyone. I'm happy to work with anyone that

926
00:52:44,272 --> 00:52:46,632
Speaker 3: wants to work with me to help me find my mum.

927
00:52:47,232 --> 00:52:49,911
Speaker 3: And the flip side of that is by doing what

928
00:52:49,951 --> 00:52:52,511
Speaker 3: I'm doing, I have met some amazing people who also

929
00:52:52,551 --> 00:52:55,471
Speaker 3: find themselves in the same situation that I'm in. And

930
00:52:55,551 --> 00:52:59,471
Speaker 3: if I can help bring awareness to this space by

931
00:52:59,551 --> 00:53:02,712
Speaker 3: doing what I'm doing, in turn helping others that also

932
00:53:02,752 --> 00:53:06,071
Speaker 3: are experience and missing persons or god forbid, anybody who

933
00:53:06,072 --> 00:53:08,631
Speaker 3: find and some self in the same position as I did,

934
00:53:09,232 --> 00:53:12,111
Speaker 3: that they can learn from some of the things that

935
00:53:12,112 --> 00:53:16,551
Speaker 3: have happened, and hopefully, you know, I know, I've even

936
00:53:16,592 --> 00:53:19,712
Speaker 3: spoken to the top people in the police force in

937
00:53:19,792 --> 00:53:22,431
Speaker 3: missing persons who have actually said to me that there

938
00:53:22,431 --> 00:53:26,232
Speaker 3: has been change in those departments, particularly in the missing

939
00:53:26,272 --> 00:53:29,352
Speaker 3: Person's Department because of what I did and what I

940
00:53:29,392 --> 00:53:33,352
Speaker 3: said and what I shared with my experiences. You know,

941
00:53:33,392 --> 00:53:35,872
Speaker 3: I had Glenn Brown, who was a head of Missing

942
00:53:35,872 --> 00:53:38,431
Speaker 3: Persons Unit at the time, said it's because of you

943
00:53:38,951 --> 00:53:41,951
Speaker 3: that some of these changes have been brought about and

944
00:53:42,152 --> 00:53:45,992
Speaker 3: awareness has come about. So that's not to pat myself

945
00:53:46,031 --> 00:53:48,512
Speaker 3: on the back. I just want things to be better,

946
00:53:49,072 --> 00:53:51,272
Speaker 3: not just for me, but for everybody who finds themselves

947
00:53:51,272 --> 00:53:51,951
Speaker 3: in this situation.

948
00:53:52,752 --> 00:53:53,991
Speaker 2: I guess I just wanted to end on.

949
00:53:55,632 --> 00:53:58,911
Speaker 1: This in that this is such a weird conversation to

950
00:53:59,031 --> 00:54:03,471
Speaker 1: have because The Lady Vanishes and your story is such

951
00:54:03,511 --> 00:54:07,872
Speaker 1: a big part of Australia's true crime now and that

952
00:54:07,911 --> 00:54:12,632
Speaker 1: brings with it what that community of people brings with it,

953
00:54:12,672 --> 00:54:14,231
Speaker 1: which for you has been a whole bunch of people

954
00:54:14,232 --> 00:54:16,912
Speaker 1: who've also been super slutes for you, who have found

955
00:54:16,951 --> 00:54:19,352
Speaker 1: things for you. But it also means people are so

956
00:54:19,511 --> 00:54:23,471
Speaker 1: intrinsically invested in the outcome of this. And I know

957
00:54:23,471 --> 00:54:27,232
Speaker 1: when The Lady Vanishes podcast wrapped up without finding Marian,

958
00:54:27,832 --> 00:54:30,671
Speaker 1: there was a real sense of loss for everyone who

959
00:54:30,752 --> 00:54:33,792
Speaker 1: followed that journey. I just wanted to know from you

960
00:54:35,072 --> 00:54:38,752
Speaker 1: how you feel about the fact that you share that

961
00:54:39,031 --> 00:54:44,832
Speaker 1: sense of unfinished business with so many people now alongside

962
00:54:44,872 --> 00:54:48,152
Speaker 1: you and who desperately want you to get the answers

963
00:54:49,272 --> 00:54:52,752
Speaker 1: that we've all been following your journey through to hopefully

964
00:54:52,792 --> 00:54:53,431
Speaker 1: reach one day.

965
00:54:54,112 --> 00:54:56,712
Speaker 3: It was difficult. It was a very difficult moment in

966
00:54:56,792 --> 00:54:59,872
Speaker 3: time for me when the lady vanishes wrapped up as well,

967
00:55:00,112 --> 00:55:02,111
Speaker 3: because I kind of felt like I was out on

968
00:55:02,152 --> 00:55:05,591
Speaker 3: an island by myself at that point. I just had

969
00:55:05,592 --> 00:55:08,631
Speaker 3: the coroner tell me my mum's officially deceased and that

970
00:55:08,712 --> 00:55:12,111
Speaker 3: she died on the fifteenth or on or around the

971
00:55:12,112 --> 00:55:14,591
Speaker 3: fifteenth of October nineteen ninety seven, and for me to

972
00:55:14,632 --> 00:55:17,031
Speaker 3: pull myself back to that moment and go I went

973
00:55:17,152 --> 00:55:20,752
Speaker 3: into the police station that week. So if you think

974
00:55:20,752 --> 00:55:24,031
Speaker 3: about Owen's birthdays, the eighteenth of October, that's three days later,

975
00:55:24,832 --> 00:55:27,392
Speaker 3: and I've gone to them and said something's wrong. So

976
00:55:27,471 --> 00:55:30,672
Speaker 3: within that week there was knowledge and they wrote it

977
00:55:30,712 --> 00:55:33,352
Speaker 3: in their files that eighty thousand dollars had been transferred

978
00:55:33,352 --> 00:55:37,431
Speaker 3: out of my mum's bank account. I get told she's deceased.

979
00:55:38,072 --> 00:55:40,392
Speaker 3: I get told that it's not going to the DPP,

980
00:55:41,911 --> 00:55:45,631
Speaker 3: that the homicide have eight hundred cases they need to

981
00:55:45,632 --> 00:55:49,272
Speaker 3: prioritize and that my mum's case essentially wasn't the priority

982
00:55:49,872 --> 00:55:54,471
Speaker 3: in that moment the Lady Vanisher's ends, and that for

983
00:55:54,592 --> 00:55:58,991
Speaker 3: me was very difficult because I feel like talking about

984
00:55:59,072 --> 00:56:02,712
Speaker 3: my story is my coping mechanism. At the same time,

985
00:56:03,352 --> 00:56:06,071
Speaker 3: my brother didn't talk about it and he took his

986
00:56:06,152 --> 00:56:10,031
Speaker 3: own life. I'm chalk and cheese with my brother. I

987
00:56:10,072 --> 00:56:13,712
Speaker 3: am the extrovert who needs to talk things through. So

988
00:56:13,991 --> 00:56:17,472
Speaker 3: for me, talking about it and keeping mum's story alive

989
00:56:18,752 --> 00:56:22,592
Speaker 3: is somewhat my mental health coping mechanism at the same time.

990
00:56:23,232 --> 00:56:28,232
Speaker 3: So we had decided Joanie and I had decided we

991
00:56:28,232 --> 00:56:32,232
Speaker 3: were going to go on this journey overseas to find

992
00:56:32,431 --> 00:56:35,912
Speaker 3: the answers that we knew were sitting there, but police

993
00:56:35,951 --> 00:56:39,431
Speaker 3: hadn't gone overseas to find that information, and some of

994
00:56:39,511 --> 00:56:41,352
Speaker 3: them were sitting behind closed doors and it was a

995
00:56:41,392 --> 00:56:43,431
Speaker 3: case of boots on the ground and have to be

996
00:56:43,511 --> 00:56:46,751
Speaker 3: there in person to actually explain the situation to find

997
00:56:46,752 --> 00:56:52,112
Speaker 3: the answers. And we ended up doing four live shows

998
00:56:52,551 --> 00:56:55,631
Speaker 3: as a fundraiser to try and raise some funds for

999
00:56:55,752 --> 00:56:58,991
Speaker 3: us to go over and do this journey. We had

1000
00:56:59,072 --> 00:57:01,951
Speaker 3: to sell out shows in Brisbane. One in Sydney and

1001
00:57:02,031 --> 00:57:07,031
Speaker 3: one on the Gold Coast, and very humbling experience for me,

1002
00:57:07,312 --> 00:57:10,072
Speaker 3: all these beautiful people coming who'd been following my journey,

1003
00:57:10,112 --> 00:57:11,872
Speaker 3: who wanted to come and meet me and give me

1004
00:57:11,872 --> 00:57:15,471
Speaker 3: a hug and just wish me well in finding information.

1005
00:57:16,472 --> 00:57:20,192
Speaker 3: And then fast forward to October, we go and do

1006
00:57:20,272 --> 00:57:21,792
Speaker 3: the journey, and we come back and then all these

1007
00:57:21,792 --> 00:57:23,032
Speaker 3: people are like, when are you going to tell us

1008
00:57:23,072 --> 00:57:24,352
Speaker 3: what you found? What are you going to tell us

1009
00:57:24,352 --> 00:57:26,472
Speaker 3: what you found? And so in my head, I was like,

1010
00:57:26,512 --> 00:57:29,192
Speaker 3: I don't even know if I have the energy or

1011
00:57:29,192 --> 00:57:33,472
Speaker 3: the drive to tell everyone. Like it was so exhausting,

1012
00:57:33,752 --> 00:57:36,792
Speaker 3: and I just twenty twenty four was probably the worst

1013
00:57:36,872 --> 00:57:39,512
Speaker 3: year of my life, to be honest. It was just

1014
00:57:39,552 --> 00:57:45,792
Speaker 3: so many hurdles, so many roadblocks, people dying, the inquest.

1015
00:57:45,952 --> 00:57:48,872
Speaker 3: It was just a lot for me doing cadavera dog

1016
00:57:48,952 --> 00:57:52,912
Speaker 3: searches looking for my mum's body in creaks, like, you know,

1017
00:57:53,752 --> 00:57:56,112
Speaker 3: no one should really have to do that, in my opinion.

1018
00:57:56,992 --> 00:58:01,392
Speaker 3: But I decided that potentially we could put together a

1019
00:58:01,432 --> 00:58:05,032
Speaker 3: podcast and share with everybody what we found, and that's

1020
00:58:05,072 --> 00:58:07,912
Speaker 3: how essentially the miss matter was born. I've been using

1021
00:58:07,912 --> 00:58:10,752
Speaker 3: the missing matter hashtag for a long time, because in

1022
00:58:10,792 --> 00:58:13,711
Speaker 3: my world, it's not just about my mum anymore. It's

1023
00:58:13,912 --> 00:58:17,432
Speaker 3: the missing. They all matter, so we shouldn't forget them,

1024
00:58:17,512 --> 00:58:19,151
Speaker 3: and we need to talk about it and keep it

1025
00:58:19,872 --> 00:58:23,552
Speaker 3: in there because someone knows something in every case. So

1026
00:58:24,352 --> 00:58:26,552
Speaker 3: that's kind of how it was born. And you know,

1027
00:58:26,592 --> 00:58:29,352
Speaker 3: I was very grateful for Jonie who's come along with

1028
00:58:29,392 --> 00:58:32,632
Speaker 3: me on this ride. We do the podcast together, and

1029
00:58:33,672 --> 00:58:37,352
Speaker 3: you know, moving forward, you know, October this year will

1030
00:58:37,392 --> 00:58:39,472
Speaker 3: be my mum's eightieth birthday, or what would have been

1031
00:58:39,472 --> 00:58:42,192
Speaker 3: her eightieth birthday, and I haven't had a chance to

1032
00:58:44,072 --> 00:58:46,672
Speaker 3: mourn her, or have a memorial for her, or do

1033
00:58:46,752 --> 00:58:49,631
Speaker 3: anything special to celebrate her over the years. I was

1034
00:58:49,672 --> 00:58:53,112
Speaker 3: planning to do something for her seventy fifth actually, and

1035
00:58:53,152 --> 00:58:55,672
Speaker 3: then we COVID hit and it all got messy, and

1036
00:58:55,792 --> 00:58:58,631
Speaker 3: so I've just waited. I thought her eightieth birthday is

1037
00:58:58,912 --> 00:59:02,432
Speaker 3: sort of seemingly quite fitting. I've done the podcast, we're

1038
00:59:02,472 --> 00:59:05,032
Speaker 3: still working on it, and we've decided to have a

1039
00:59:05,112 --> 00:59:08,512
Speaker 3: high tea for her her which is a paid or

1040
00:59:08,512 --> 00:59:11,352
Speaker 3: a ticketed event which we're hosting here in Brisbane. There's

1041
00:59:11,352 --> 00:59:13,912
Speaker 3: only one hundred tickets, so it's not a big event

1042
00:59:14,192 --> 00:59:15,832
Speaker 3: and tickets will go on sale at the end of

1043
00:59:16,192 --> 00:59:21,632
Speaker 3: July for that and the money raised. There won't be

1044
00:59:21,672 --> 00:59:25,032
Speaker 3: a lot of money after everything that costs to host

1045
00:59:25,032 --> 00:59:27,432
Speaker 3: one of these things, but I'm hoping that we can

1046
00:59:27,512 --> 00:59:31,072
Speaker 3: raise a few funds from some raffles and some merchandise

1047
00:59:31,152 --> 00:59:34,792
Speaker 3: and things like that. And my plan is to start

1048
00:59:35,112 --> 00:59:38,472
Speaker 3: creating these bench seats in the color of green, green

1049
00:59:38,552 --> 00:59:41,392
Speaker 3: was my mum's favorite color, and have a plaque on

1050
00:59:41,432 --> 00:59:44,432
Speaker 3: them that says the missing Matter Marion Matters, and they

1051
00:59:44,632 --> 00:59:47,072
Speaker 3: have a QR code on those, and put them in

1052
00:59:47,112 --> 00:59:52,712
Speaker 3: prominent spots. I've noted when doing this research that councils

1053
00:59:52,832 --> 01:00:00,152
Speaker 3: put memorial sites in cemeteries for the missing and it's beautiful,

1054
01:00:00,272 --> 01:00:02,072
Speaker 3: it's got water features and all the rest of it,

1055
01:00:02,152 --> 01:00:04,432
Speaker 3: but no one is actually going to a cemetery and

1056
01:00:04,472 --> 01:00:07,672
Speaker 3: walking around looking at missing persons. We need to have

1057
01:00:07,752 --> 01:00:10,352
Speaker 3: it in a prominent space, like the top of Kangaroo

1058
01:00:10,352 --> 01:00:12,992
Speaker 3: Point Cliffs, for example, when people are sitting there looking

1059
01:00:12,992 --> 01:00:16,672
Speaker 3: out to the river. In my head, I want to

1060
01:00:16,712 --> 01:00:18,992
Speaker 3: be looking because I'm still looking for my mum, So

1061
01:00:19,032 --> 01:00:20,752
Speaker 3: I don't want to be going to a cemetery and

1062
01:00:20,792 --> 01:00:24,312
Speaker 3: sitting there with her memorial. The QR code. People will

1063
01:00:24,312 --> 01:00:26,312
Speaker 3: be able to scan it and it will take them

1064
01:00:26,312 --> 01:00:30,432
Speaker 3: to the website the Missing Matter, and they can read

1065
01:00:30,512 --> 01:00:34,512
Speaker 3: stories about people who are missing in certain locations around

1066
01:00:34,512 --> 01:00:39,191
Speaker 3: the world. So I always start really big and quite

1067
01:00:39,232 --> 01:00:41,032
Speaker 3: off more than I can chew, and I chew like mad.

1068
01:00:41,792 --> 01:00:43,352
Speaker 3: But I have had to pull it back a little

1069
01:00:43,352 --> 01:00:45,272
Speaker 3: bit because we were doing a walk all over the

1070
01:00:45,272 --> 01:00:47,912
Speaker 3: world and I had people in Scotland and New Zealand

1071
01:00:47,992 --> 01:00:50,952
Speaker 3: and Seattle and three places in the UK who are

1072
01:00:51,072 --> 01:00:53,552
Speaker 3: going to do these amazing walks, and we just I

1073
01:00:53,632 --> 01:00:56,912
Speaker 3: just got I just yeah red taped again with you know,

1074
01:00:57,032 --> 01:00:59,272
Speaker 3: having to pay indemnity, insurances and things like that, and

1075
01:00:59,272 --> 01:01:02,312
Speaker 3: it all's got too difficult. So on Sunday, the fifth

1076
01:01:02,312 --> 01:01:05,792
Speaker 3: of October, we're just asking that everyone just domins some green,

1077
01:01:06,112 --> 01:01:09,032
Speaker 3: go for a walk, take a photo of yourself, throw

1078
01:01:09,072 --> 01:01:11,632
Speaker 3: it over on our Facebook page with the hashtag Missing Matter,

1079
01:01:12,112 --> 01:01:15,392
Speaker 3: and we'll just bring some awareness to the Missing space.

1080
01:01:15,832 --> 01:01:18,152
Speaker 3: If people would like to try and get a ticket

1081
01:01:18,192 --> 01:01:21,792
Speaker 3: to Mum's memorial, it that we're planning. It's going to

1082
01:01:21,792 --> 01:01:25,832
Speaker 3: be held on Sunday, the twenty eighth of September this

1083
01:01:25,992 --> 01:01:30,432
Speaker 3: year at Hamworth House here in Brisbane, and ticket information

1084
01:01:30,472 --> 01:01:32,512
Speaker 3: will be available via the website as well.

1085
01:01:33,672 --> 01:01:35,472
Speaker 1: Beautiful will pap a link to that in our show

1086
01:01:35,472 --> 01:01:38,232
Speaker 1: notes too. Sally, thank you so much for sharing your

1087
01:01:38,272 --> 01:01:41,112
Speaker 1: mom's story with us today and for taking us on

1088
01:01:41,152 --> 01:01:44,232
Speaker 1: this journey with you for the past near decade now.

1089
01:01:44,312 --> 01:01:47,512
Speaker 1: So we hope, for your sake and for everyone who's

1090
01:01:47,552 --> 01:01:49,712
Speaker 1: been following this his sake, and for anyone who has

1091
01:01:49,752 --> 01:01:52,032
Speaker 1: a missing person in their life, that people at least

1092
01:01:52,072 --> 01:01:54,512
Speaker 1: get answers that go some way to healing that wound.

1093
01:01:54,552 --> 01:01:55,992
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing.

1094
01:01:55,672 --> 01:01:57,592
Speaker 3: With us today. Thank you, Claire for having me.

1095
01:02:02,232 --> 01:02:04,432
Speaker 1: Thank you to Sally for helping us tell her story.

1096
01:02:04,552 --> 01:02:06,272
Speaker 1: You can find a link to her podcast, The Miss

1097
01:02:06,592 --> 01:02:09,192
Speaker 1: Matter and her website in the show notes. If you

1098
01:02:09,352 --> 01:02:11,472
Speaker 1: like this episode and want to hear more from guests

1099
01:02:11,512 --> 01:02:14,032
Speaker 1: like Sally, send us an email at true Crime at

1100
01:02:14,072 --> 01:02:17,352
Speaker 1: mammamea dot com dot au, and please, if you wouldn't mind,

1101
01:02:17,592 --> 01:02:20,152
Speaker 1: also leave us a rating and a review on Apple, Spotify,

1102
01:02:20,272 --> 01:02:21,792
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcast.

1103
01:02:22,192 --> 01:02:23,632
Speaker 2: Just let us know what you think of the show.

1104
01:02:24,072 --> 01:02:27,352
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma Mia podcast hosted by

1105
01:02:27,392 --> 01:02:30,592
Speaker 1: me Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio

1106
01:02:30,632 --> 01:02:31,752
Speaker 1: designed by Jacob Brown.

1107
01:02:32,272 --> 01:02:33,352
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

1108
01:02:33,432 --> 01:02:36,232
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation.