WEBVTT - Your AM Headlines + The Cornell Case, Reopened 0:00:06.355 --> 0:00:09.075 You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.315 --> 0:00:16.765 Hello, I'm Charlotte Mortlock with the latest from the Quickie Newsroom. 0:00:17.345 --> 0:00:19.725 And before we kick off today, just a warning, this 0:00:19.805 --> 0:00:24.045 episode includes some pretty shocking descriptions of sexual assault and 0:00:24.105 --> 0:00:30.435 vulgar language. In the US, prosecutors have reopened an investigation 0:00:30.635 --> 0:00:34.675 into an alleged gang rape at a prestigious university fraternity house. 0:00:35.485 --> 0:00:39.794 A former student is suing Cornell University and seven frat members, 0:00:40.335 --> 0:00:43.995 alleging she was drugged and sexually assaulted over several hours 0:00:44.154 --> 0:00:49.694 in 2024. The allegations haven't been tested in court, but 0:00:49.735 --> 0:00:54.095 they are shocking. And the case has reignited a conversation 0:00:54.215 --> 0:00:59.175 about drug-facilitated sexual assault, which captured global attention in 2024 0:00:59.175 --> 0:01:03.665 and when 51 men were convicted in France of sexually 0:01:03.705 --> 0:01:09.024 assaulting Giselle Pellicot. That case became a lightning rod, with 0:01:09.085 --> 0:01:11.635 women around the world coming forward to say the same 0:01:11.915 --> 0:01:15.775 or something similar had happened to them. But first, here's 0:01:15.815 --> 0:01:22.555 Tamsin Rose with your headlines for Wednesday, September 30. Thanks, Charlotte. 0:01:23.495 --> 0:01:27.055 Homeowners are facing more pain after the Reserve Bank lifted 0:01:27.115 --> 0:01:31.175 rates on Tuesday, with Governor Michelle Bullock refusing to be 0:01:31.215 --> 0:01:34.475 drawn on if Australians should brace for yet another rate 0:01:34.515 --> 0:01:38.355 rise later this year. It's the highest cash rate in 0:01:38.355 --> 0:01:42.745 15 years and the RBA's fourth hike this year. The 0:01:42.765 --> 0:01:46.005 board's decision was unanimous and it hasn't ruled out going 0:01:46.065 --> 0:01:50.245 higher still. Bullock said Australia moved first among advanced economies 0:01:50.585 --> 0:01:53.565 and that underlying inflation is running hotter than expected in 0:01:53.625 --> 0:01:59.745 market services, groceries and household goods. SpaceX Starship has reached 0:01:59.825 --> 0:02:02.515 orbit for the first time and deployed a batch of 0:02:02.635 --> 0:02:06.655 Starlink satellites. An early engine failure cut the planned 10-hour 0:02:06.715 --> 0:02:10.655 mission to three hours. It was the rocket's 14th flight 0:02:10.855 --> 0:02:15.405 since 2023 and its first revenue-generating one, as Elon Musk's 0:02:15.495 --> 0:02:19.705 company prepares to put Starship into regular use later this year. 0:02:20.925 --> 0:02:23.445 The countdown to the unveiling of the Brisbane 2023 emblem 0:02:23.465 --> 0:02:29.375 is on. Swimming great Ian Thorpe and Paralympian Grant Patterson 0:02:29.515 --> 0:02:32.955 unveiled the first piece of the puzzle in Cairns on Tuesday, 0:02:33.335 --> 0:02:37.475 kicking off a six-day build-up. Guesses range from a crocodile's 0:02:37.535 --> 0:02:42.264 tooth to a mango, but Thorpe thinks it's a turtle fin. Meanwhile, 0:02:42.365 --> 0:02:45.785 questions have been raised about a koala habitat being approved 0:02:45.925 --> 0:02:49.685 as an Olympic venue. Coming up, why mangoes might be 0:02:49.745 --> 0:02:52.845 left to rot, and Charlotte speaks to Gemma Bath about 0:02:52.905 --> 0:03:02.825 a shocking type of crime. Brisbane Lions coach Chris Fagan 0:03:02.885 --> 0:03:05.945 has been handed the keys to the city after leading 0:03:05.985 --> 0:03:10.325 the club to three straight AFL premierships. On Saturday, the 0:03:10.385 --> 0:03:13.575 Lions came back from 17 points down in the final 0:03:13.615 --> 0:03:18.635 four minutes to beat Fremantle 96-89. Fagan was presented with 0:03:18.655 --> 0:03:21.455 the keys to the city by Brisbane Lord Mayor Adrian 0:03:21.515 --> 0:03:26.965 Schrinner after shaking hands with Queensland Premier David Crisafulli. And 0:03:27.005 --> 0:03:30.325 mango growers are warning that changes to working holiday visas 0:03:30.465 --> 0:03:34.425 could leave fruit rotting on trees. Home Affairs Minister Tony 0:03:34.445 --> 0:03:38.465 Burke is cutting visas for backpackers amid an ongoing conversation 0:03:38.565 --> 0:03:42.525 about migration in Australia. The NT government says the top-end 0:03:42.545 --> 0:03:46.255 harvest could be 1,000 workers short, with 70% of the 0:03:46.295 --> 0:03:50.495 crop left unpicked. Growers say that means fewer mangoes and 0:03:50.575 --> 0:03:52.255 higher prices at the checkout. 0:03:54.395 --> 0:03:59.365 Thanks, Tamsin. Today, we're covering a really heavy topic, and 0:03:59.385 --> 0:04:02.805 I've got Gemma Bath, the host of True Crime Conversations, 0:04:02.945 --> 0:04:06.085 in the studio with me. I wanted to start with 0:04:06.165 --> 0:04:08.785 that case out of the US that we're all just 0:04:08.985 --> 0:04:11.585 unable to stop reading about right now because it is 0:04:11.775 --> 0:04:16.195 so shocking. A former Cornell University student is suing the 0:04:16.275 --> 0:04:21.135 university and seven fraternity members, alleging she was drugged and 0:04:21.214 --> 0:04:26.345 sexually assaulted at a fraternity house in 2024. What's the latest? 0:04:27.045 --> 0:04:30.325 So the lawsuit was filed earlier this month and it's 0:04:30.435 --> 0:04:34.695 really cut through online. It's really hit a chord with 0:04:34.755 --> 0:04:38.154 women right across the world because of just how shocking 0:04:38.315 --> 0:04:42.115 and disappointing it is. So to get you up to 0:04:42.155 --> 0:04:46.435 date with the allegations, the woman that is alleging these crimes, 0:04:46.655 --> 0:04:49.875 we only know her as Jane Doe, and she alleges 0:04:49.915 --> 0:04:54.685 that in October 2024, seven members of a fraternity at 0:04:54.785 --> 0:04:59.685 Cornell drugged her and sexually assaulted her over several hours. 0:05:00.525 --> 0:05:05.125 And the lawsuit includes a screenshot of a fraternity group chat. 0:05:05.825 --> 0:05:08.795 And in it, and a warning, this is really gross. 0:05:09.495 --> 0:05:13.135 In it, one member allegedly told the others there was 0:05:13.575 --> 0:05:18.955 free pussy, in quote marks, upstairs. So that was obviously 0:05:19.015 --> 0:05:22.755 referring to her, allegedly. And it's just really horrifying to 0:05:22.835 --> 0:05:26.914 read And it's that Snapchat in particular, that group chat, 0:05:27.355 --> 0:05:30.615 that is really angering people, the way these men are 0:05:30.675 --> 0:05:36.215 talking allegedly about a woman. This 20-year-old at the time, 0:05:36.295 --> 0:05:39.315 she reported it to campus police a few weeks after 0:05:39.355 --> 0:05:43.635 the alleged incident. And the fraternity was suspended, but there 0:05:43.675 --> 0:05:48.425 were no criminal charges laid. And then this lawsuit claims 0:05:48.465 --> 0:05:50.805 that some of the men were actually allowed to lessen 0:05:50.825 --> 0:05:55.495 their punishments by writing essays. for the university, which is 0:05:55.535 --> 0:05:58.855 something that Cornell denies. So when all of this came out, 0:05:58.915 --> 0:06:01.895 you know, the group chat, the essays, there was just 0:06:02.035 --> 0:06:06.935 enormous backlash. People are asking, how could this happen? How 0:06:06.995 --> 0:06:10.775 has nobody been held criminally responsible? How has this not 0:06:10.855 --> 0:06:12.295 at least gone through the courts? 0:06:12.995 --> 0:06:16.505 And now the prosecutor has reopened the case. What's he 0:06:16.565 --> 0:06:17.865 said about why? 0:06:18.325 --> 0:06:21.205 Yeah, the district attorney, he has put out quite a 0:06:21.225 --> 0:06:24.475 long statement that where he explains why there were no 0:06:24.495 --> 0:06:27.914 charges the first time. And he says the sworn statement 0:06:27.955 --> 0:06:31.125 that was given by the woman, Jane Doe, that she 0:06:31.165 --> 0:06:34.585 gave to police in 2024, it didn't allege that she 0:06:34.645 --> 0:06:37.785 was drugged against her will. He says that that statement 0:06:37.825 --> 0:06:43.245 described the drug use as voluntary. And what that means, 0:06:43.425 --> 0:06:47.145 under New York law, to prove someone was incapacitated by drugs, 0:06:47.185 --> 0:06:49.035 you have to show the drug was given to them 0:06:49.095 --> 0:06:51.955 without their consent. And he said the facts in the 0:06:52.035 --> 0:06:56.425 original statement didn't meet that test, that requirement. So he's 0:06:56.435 --> 0:06:59.145 been really clear, though, in his statement that her credibility 0:06:59.185 --> 0:07:01.665 was never in question. And he's also called out the 0:07:01.705 --> 0:07:05.125 behavior of some of the fraternity members. And in his words, 0:07:05.405 --> 0:07:09.795 he says, without question, it's disgusting and morally reprehensible. 0:07:10.395 --> 0:07:11.355 He also has. 0:07:11.255 --> 0:07:15.395 Said that his office was never provided the horrifying screenshot, 0:07:15.435 --> 0:07:18.895 the Snapchat group. and that that would form a part 0:07:18.995 --> 0:07:23.185 of the evidence in the reinvestigation. As for why he's 0:07:23.245 --> 0:07:26.465 reopening it now, he says that the community asked him 0:07:26.525 --> 0:07:29.125 to and that he acknowledged that it can take survivors 0:07:29.175 --> 0:07:32.095 years to fully process what happened to them. So the 0:07:32.125 --> 0:07:35.155 DA has assigned a senior female prosecutor with lots of 0:07:35.215 --> 0:07:37.355 experience in sex crimes and the case is going to 0:07:37.375 --> 0:07:38.455 a grand jury. 0:07:39.135 --> 0:07:39.915 Which is great. 0:07:40.195 --> 0:07:43.475 They'll hear from Jane Doe, along with any new evidence 0:07:43.775 --> 0:07:46.155 raised in the lawsuit. So this story is still very 0:07:46.175 --> 0:07:50.785 much unfolding, but it really shows just how much these 0:07:50.905 --> 0:07:54.085 cases in particular hinge on the question of whether drugs 0:07:54.645 --> 0:07:59.985 were taken willingly or without consent and how hard that 0:08:00.045 --> 0:08:00.805 is to prove. 0:08:01.635 --> 0:08:05.205 That's a case that's still very much unfolding. And those 0:08:05.285 --> 0:08:08.225 allegations haven't been tested in court. But it's a very 0:08:08.325 --> 0:08:12.345 different case from the one that first brought drug-facilitated rape 0:08:12.585 --> 0:08:16.775 into global consciousness, the Pellico case. Can you briefly run 0:08:16.835 --> 0:08:18.715 us through exactly what happened there? 0:08:19.115 --> 0:08:21.315 Now, the reason we even know about that case is 0:08:21.355 --> 0:08:24.535 because Giselle, who is the wife of Dominique, the victim 0:08:24.595 --> 0:08:28.275 in this story, waived her right to anonymity and chose 0:08:28.435 --> 0:08:33.634 to have the trial broadcast on a world stage, it 0:08:33.675 --> 0:08:37.334 ended up being. And it was kind of one of 0:08:37.375 --> 0:08:40.985 those like global intake moments. We hadn't really heard about 0:08:41.005 --> 0:08:45.725 a crime like this. Basically, Dominique had been drugging his 0:08:45.825 --> 0:08:51.585 wife and raping her between 2011 and 2020 over and 0:08:51.645 --> 0:08:54.385 over and over again, but not just him. He'd invited 0:08:54.385 --> 0:08:58.745 70 other men from Australia the local village from around 0:08:58.825 --> 0:09:03.525 France into their home to also rape his unconscious wife. 0:09:04.385 --> 0:09:07.925 It is one of those crimes that is just sickening. 0:09:08.475 --> 0:09:14.075 But that trial in 2024 really put drug-induced rape, which 0:09:14.135 --> 0:09:17.515 is what that crime is, on our radar for the 0:09:17.554 --> 0:09:18.595 first time, really. 0:09:19.415 --> 0:09:22.715 And how did that particular case then lead to Saskia 0:09:22.735 --> 0:09:24.694 Van Doorn's CNN investigation? 0:09:25.275 --> 0:09:28.475 So Saskia covered Giselle's case. She was in court every day. 0:09:28.495 --> 0:09:31.054 And when she was sitting there, she thought, this can't 0:09:31.075 --> 0:09:33.554 be the only victim. It can't. Because there's 70 men 0:09:33.635 --> 0:09:39.405 here who chatted to Dominique on a platform called Coco 0:09:40.565 --> 0:09:44.085 and organized to come over to his house. So she 0:09:44.125 --> 0:09:47.305 started digging. She basically went on porn sites. She went 0:09:47.345 --> 0:09:50.195 into the depths of them and found some really horrible 0:09:50.245 --> 0:09:54.335 content in there. And what she discovered was that men... 0:09:54.755 --> 0:09:59.025 were then creating WhatsApp chats off the side of the 0:09:59.065 --> 0:10:05.475 porn websites to discuss this crime, drug-induced rape. So they 0:10:05.495 --> 0:10:09.015 were sharing tips and they were sending in photos and 0:10:09.075 --> 0:10:14.135 they were selling drugs to each other and encouraging raping 0:10:14.175 --> 0:10:18.225 their wives while they were unconscious. She managed to get 0:10:18.265 --> 0:10:20.105 her way into one of the WhatsApp groups and that 0:10:20.125 --> 0:10:22.745 was one, one of the groups. She said there were 0:10:22.965 --> 0:10:26.885 thousands of them. And she found in her one investigation 0:10:27.505 --> 0:10:34.035 at least 20,000 videos on these porn sites showing women unconscious. 0:10:34.895 --> 0:10:36.935 It's hard to imagine that it could be that common 0:10:36.975 --> 0:10:39.835 as well. What do we know about Zoe Watts and 0:10:39.895 --> 0:10:41.055 what she experienced? 0:10:41.455 --> 0:10:43.955 So Zoe is one of the survivors that Saskia featured 0:10:43.995 --> 0:10:46.345 in her investigation and she kind of helps us to 0:10:46.405 --> 0:10:50.765 understand because I think Giselle's case made this crime feel 0:10:50.785 --> 0:10:54.625 really abnormal. And really kind of strange because there was 0:10:54.665 --> 0:10:59.725 all these men. Zoe's case reminds us that this is 0:10:59.785 --> 0:11:05.145 happening in regular homes. She is from Devon in England. 0:11:05.945 --> 0:11:09.425 And one Sunday, her husband came to her after church 0:11:09.665 --> 0:11:14.195 and admitted that for the past six or so years, 0:11:14.815 --> 0:11:18.655 he had been crushing their son's sleeping medication into her 0:11:18.715 --> 0:11:22.875 nightly tea. And then his wording says, and then having 0:11:22.955 --> 0:11:28.525 sex with you while you're asleep. He didn't use rape. 0:11:29.585 --> 0:11:32.145 So he admitted that to her and it took Zoe 0:11:32.185 --> 0:11:35.605 a long time to kind of get her head around 0:11:35.685 --> 0:11:40.175 what had happened. But eventually she pressed charges and she 0:11:40.215 --> 0:11:41.715 took him to trial and she won and he is 0:11:41.755 --> 0:11:42.175 in prison. 0:11:42.475 --> 0:11:45.015 Can you tell me what we know about how widespread 0:11:45.035 --> 0:11:46.895 it is and does it happen in Australia? 0:11:47.725 --> 0:11:50.165 Yes, it happens in Australia. I know of a few 0:11:50.205 --> 0:11:52.425 cases currently that are going through the courts that I'm 0:11:52.445 --> 0:11:55.285 not allowed to speak about just yet, but yes, this 0:11:55.365 --> 0:11:59.585 is happening all over the world. In potentially every country 0:11:59.605 --> 0:12:01.265 you can think of, stuff like this is happening. It 0:12:01.304 --> 0:12:03.885 is way, way, way more common than we think. If 0:12:03.905 --> 0:12:07.525 you go into the comments on the social media posts 0:12:07.825 --> 0:12:10.814 my podcast did with Zoe, there are women in there. 0:12:11.075 --> 0:12:13.535 This happened to me. Oh, this happened to me as well. 0:12:13.855 --> 0:12:16.184 My husband did this to me in the 60s. It 0:12:16.245 --> 0:12:18.845 is so common. To give you an example of the scale, 0:12:18.925 --> 0:12:22.385 one of those WhatsApp groups I told you about, 70,000 members. 0:12:23.445 --> 0:12:23.845 One group. 0:12:24.285 --> 0:12:24.564 Wow. 0:12:25.085 --> 0:12:30.045 This is one of those silent crimes that has just hidden. 0:12:30.725 --> 0:12:32.285 Can you explain the term iCheck? 0:12:33.025 --> 0:12:37.304 So iCheck is the kind of hashtag that Saskia found 0:12:37.445 --> 0:12:43.505 on these porn websites under these abhorrent videos. And it's basically... 0:12:43.635 --> 0:12:46.235 A term that these men use to make sure that 0:12:46.355 --> 0:12:49.314 their partners are asleep. So you can imagine they would 0:12:49.395 --> 0:12:52.395 lift up their partner's eyes and make sure they fall 0:12:52.435 --> 0:12:55.875 back down to know that she's drugged enough to then 0:12:55.935 --> 0:12:58.735 abuse her. Yeah, it's disgusting. 0:12:59.635 --> 0:13:05.215 Wow. That is absolutely awful. What should someone think about 0:13:05.375 --> 0:13:07.935 if they are worried this might be happening to themselves 0:13:08.155 --> 0:13:09.074 or someone that they know? 0:13:09.835 --> 0:13:14.405 What I learnt from Zoe is the power in speaking 0:13:14.445 --> 0:13:17.985 to the people around you. So she remembers things like 0:13:18.085 --> 0:13:22.985 waking up feeling really foggy and the recurrent UTIs and 0:13:23.605 --> 0:13:27.085 something not being quite right. And if she'd have spoken 0:13:27.185 --> 0:13:29.484 to her mom and her sister, who she eventually did 0:13:29.625 --> 0:13:31.985 after he admitted it, who they were the ones that 0:13:32.025 --> 0:13:34.925 told her to go to the police. You know, it's 0:13:35.025 --> 0:13:39.895 verbalizing that because Now that this is in the public realm, 0:13:40.255 --> 0:13:42.335 if you start talking to the people in your world, 0:13:42.415 --> 0:13:44.314 they might have seen something about this. They might be 0:13:44.335 --> 0:13:47.415 able to connect the dots for you. It's about getting 0:13:47.475 --> 0:13:49.775 women to know that this is a crime, that this 0:13:49.855 --> 0:13:50.355 is happening. 0:13:50.855 --> 0:13:54.935 Thanks for coming in today, Gemma. If you or anyone 0:13:54.975 --> 0:14:02.525 you know needs expert help, please contact 1800RESPECT, 1800 737 732, 0:14:02.525 --> 0:14:06.465 the National Sexual Assault, Domestic and Family Violence Counselling Service. 0:14:07.195 --> 0:14:10.285 If you are in immediate danger, call triple zero. And 0:14:10.325 --> 0:14:13.245 thanks for listening today. For more news like this, please 0:14:13.285 --> 0:14:16.325 click follow the quickie wherever you get your podcast and 0:14:16.345 --> 0:14:19.445 please leave a rating and review. It helps other people 0:14:19.485 --> 0:14:27.055 find us. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the 0:14:27.095 --> 0:14:29.115 land on which we have recorded this podcast.