WEBVTT - Part 1: We Spoke To A Victim And Her Perpetrator. This Is Alena's Story.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a December night in two thousand and Elena is

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<v Speaker 1>peering through the peepole of her front door in Sydney.

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<v Speaker 1>He's here again. Ever since she broke up with Kai,

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<v Speaker 1>he's been turning up at her home, begging to be

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<v Speaker 1>let in, to chat, to be given a second chance.

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<v Speaker 1>She can tell he's been drinking, but there's something else

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<v Speaker 1>his eyes. They look different. She opens the door a crack,

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<v Speaker 1>and he barges the rest of the way in. For

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<v Speaker 1>the next few hours, Kai essentially holds her hostage in

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<v Speaker 1>her own living room. Then he goes into the kitchen

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<v Speaker 1>and things take a sinister turn. He returns with a knife.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations,

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<v Speaker 1>a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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<v Speaker 1>to the people who know the most about them. Kai

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<v Speaker 1>is not his real name. We have pretend did his

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<v Speaker 1>identity because in this episode we have been given a

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<v Speaker 1>rare opportunity. Not only are you going to hear Elayna's story,

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<v Speaker 1>her version of events from that terrifying night twenty six

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<v Speaker 1>years ago and the devastating impact that followed, but you're

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<v Speaker 1>also going to hear from Kai he has agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>be interviewed to tell his side of the story, to

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<v Speaker 1>apologize publicly for what he describes as the worst mistake

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<v Speaker 1>of his life. Elayna and Kai have moved on with

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<v Speaker 1>their lives, but for the first time in nearly three decades,

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<v Speaker 1>they're revisiting the domestic violence attack that changed everything. Our

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<v Speaker 1>podcast is the first time they've revisited the incident that

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<v Speaker 1>gave her PTSD and him a criminal record. You're going

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<v Speaker 1>to hear from Kai in part two, so look out

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<v Speaker 1>for that in our feed. But first, Elayna is a wife,

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<v Speaker 1>a mother of three, an educator, and a somatic therapist.

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<v Speaker 1>This is her story. Elena, thank you for joining us

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<v Speaker 1>on True Crime Conversations. Why have you decided to share

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<v Speaker 1>your story today?

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<v Speaker 2>O great question, Genmah, thank you for having me. It

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<v Speaker 2>has been a while since this happened. I've shared it

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<v Speaker 2>in pieces and bits and bobs before, but it seems

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<v Speaker 2>timely to talk about how you heal from really big,

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<v Speaker 2>difficult things that you know, this took me out for

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<v Speaker 2>a long time and now I kind of feel like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm on the other side of it, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's really really important to share.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to the mid to late nineties, early

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<v Speaker 1>two thousands, Who were you as a person, What were

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<v Speaker 1>you doing with your life? Well? I was floundering in

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<v Speaker 1>many ways.

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<v Speaker 2>I had, you know, been a sort of a student

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<v Speaker 2>in too University, started a career in public relations, and

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<v Speaker 2>it had fallen down, and I had ended up working

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<v Speaker 2>in the film industry, which was extremely exciting but pretty

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sporadic work in Sydney, and I have been

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<v Speaker 2>on and off jobs and you know, struggling to pay rent.

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<v Speaker 2>And I set into this kind of really exciting phase

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<v Speaker 2>of my life where I'd met this man in a

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<v Speaker 2>cafe and I thought he was just amazing, and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>come away with me.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I've got a van.

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<v Speaker 2>So I gave notice on my apartment and the night

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<v Speaker 2>before he said, ah, actually maybe I'm just going.

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<v Speaker 1>To go on my own. Oh why does I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like every twenties? He was a really good looking Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, I kind of moved to my mom's house, went

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<v Speaker 2>to New York for a month on like borrowed money

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<v Speaker 2>and visited my dad who was living there, which was

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<v Speaker 2>pretty amazing. So I was having a really amazing time,

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<v Speaker 2>but also didn't really know what was going on or

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<v Speaker 2>where I was going to land, And the night before

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<v Speaker 2>I went to New York, I met a guy and

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<v Speaker 2>when I got back, we kind of connected and I

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<v Speaker 2>ended up moving in with him for a while. And

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<v Speaker 2>it was a pretty interesting time. I was trying to

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<v Speaker 2>establish myself in my work in film, but also trying

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<v Speaker 2>to make money in other ways, you know, working in

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<v Speaker 2>administration or temp contracts of you know, various things, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it was sort of precarious, but I was very

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<v Speaker 2>grateful to have somewhere to live. I moved to Bondai

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<v Speaker 2>and moved in with a really cool couple of people,

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<v Speaker 2>one of him it was a DJ, and so my

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<v Speaker 2>life was good and also weird. I once again, I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's every twenty year old, twenty something year old's life,

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<v Speaker 2>all my life back in my twenties. So the guy

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<v Speaker 2>you met was Kai. Yeah, what attracted you to him?

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<v Speaker 2>What was he like when you first met him? A

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<v Speaker 2>very unusual person, really, yeah, an ex pro athlete and

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<v Speaker 2>culturally different to me, Pacific islander, and you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>really inspiring human actually, and someone who seemed to me

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<v Speaker 2>like a protector, someone who wanted to kind of take

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<v Speaker 2>care of me and give me safe harbor, which at

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<v Speaker 2>that point in time was really compelling.

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<v Speaker 1>So you met he him, went away, and basically moved

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<v Speaker 1>straight in with him. Yeah. Well I didn't have a house.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have anywhere to live, and he was like,

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<v Speaker 2>we've got a spare room, you know, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>it was our shared room.

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<v Speaker 1>Like it was just straight in. So it really would

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<v Speaker 1>have fast tracked your relationship. Do you remember those early

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<v Speaker 1>days of the relationship. What was it like. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it was fine.

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<v Speaker 2>We were kind of making house, but also he worked

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<v Speaker 2>nights and he was a doorman, and so it was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of lonely as well.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a real mix.

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<v Speaker 2>I was fairly i mean, unstable in my life, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so he'd given me a place to stay. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even think I was paying much rent. He was going

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<v Speaker 2>out to work every night, and there was an expectation

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<v Speaker 2>that I stayed home and waited for him.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a little bit of a power dynamic. I

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<v Speaker 2>think some of that was cultural. I think there was

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<v Speaker 2>an element of wanting to take care of me and

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<v Speaker 2>protect me and keep me safe. But it was a

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<v Speaker 2>definite imbalance. I felt a little kind of on the

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<v Speaker 2>kept side, or like in debt to him. Yeah, most,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's not a kind of a healthy way to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of live. And when I think about that, that

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<v Speaker 2>makes sense, doesn't it? What comes later? So, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>I would be at home and he'd be going to work,

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<v Speaker 2>and he'd sort of imply that I shouldn't go out

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<v Speaker 2>or I should stay home. And at the time that

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<v Speaker 2>didn't raise any alarms. I was kind of like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't that sweet that he wants me to wait

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<v Speaker 2>for him. I was really naive about that. In hindsight,

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a red flag.

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<v Speaker 1>It's almost got a little bit of the coercive control

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<v Speaker 1>tendencies to it, which I grew up in a family

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<v Speaker 1>with so very familiar to me, almost Oh my definition

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<v Speaker 1>of love, you know, that's what families are like.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't even recognize that until much much later in

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<v Speaker 2>my life. The nature of coercive control is quite insidious

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<v Speaker 2>and sneaky, you know, and you know, weirdly, the people

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<v Speaker 2>even in it don't realize it's happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Had Kai shared much with you about his life story?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know much about him? A little?

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<v Speaker 2>So in pieces, And I wasn't really aware of the

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<v Speaker 2>breadth and depth of his situation at that time, and

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<v Speaker 2>he had his own really deep traumas and adverse circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>going on in his family, some loss and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was quite tragic what happened in his family, but

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't really know anything about that at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>How did things start going downhill in your relationship?

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<v Speaker 2>So I started to cotton on that, you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>was out most nights, so we were sort of ships

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<v Speaker 2>in the night. I also started to cotton on that

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't getting the full story, you know, that he

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<v Speaker 2>was going through things that he wasn't being completely transparent

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<v Speaker 2>with me about. And it got to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>I realized that living with him wasn't really the best idea.

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<v Speaker 2>So a friend of mine had a spare room in Bondai,

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<v Speaker 2>and I moved there. And it was a really good

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<v Speaker 2>decision to do that, and to move in with my friend,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a very dear friend who was also going

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<v Speaker 2>through a breakup, you know. So I started the process

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<v Speaker 2>of kind of leaving the relationship and saying, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a really intense relationship. I think you've got some things

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<v Speaker 2>going on. I think I've got some things going on,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm going to move out let's just keep it really,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there was no big drama there, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really accept the end of the relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>How did he react, Well, I don't really.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember any big fireworks, but I do remember him coming

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<v Speaker 2>over a lot to my new place too much and

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<v Speaker 2>me saying, you just can't keep coming over here all

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and he would say, I just want to

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<v Speaker 2>sleep on your floor, and I just you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was his safe spot as well at that time, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>or one of.

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<v Speaker 1>When he was coming over. Was it ever? Were you

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<v Speaker 1>ever scared of him? Was he ever aggressive? No?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean he's physically a very large human, so there

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<v Speaker 2>was always, I guess awareness of that. And I had

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<v Speaker 2>always felt quite safe around him. But when he began

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<v Speaker 2>to unravel a little bit less so, a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>less so, not so much that I didn't feel safe,

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<v Speaker 2>but more I was concerned and I could see something

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<v Speaker 2>was going on and I didn't really exactly know what.

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<v Speaker 2>And he would, you know, go to the pub and

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<v Speaker 2>then call me at midnight and say I need to

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<v Speaker 2>come and see you, and I'd be like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want you to come over.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So we then sort of started in this thing where

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<v Speaker 2>I was being kind because he'd been kind to me

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<v Speaker 2>and taken me in and you know, kind of attempted

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<v Speaker 2>to help me out, and so I felt a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of an obligation there, which was an interesting kind

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<v Speaker 2>of situation.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So then my flatmate would go, why is he coming over?

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<v Speaker 2>All the time they go, well, he's having a hard time,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't like you were trying to, oh, like,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe I'll give him another chance, I'll take You'd not

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<v Speaker 1>the decision. I know, the relationship was over. You were

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<v Speaker 1>just kind of trying to be My kindness was my weakness,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd say, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was probably a much more of a people

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<v Speaker 2>pleasing person then as well, probably really scared to disappoint people.

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<v Speaker 1>Young women hardly conditioned not to say no. Did you

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<v Speaker 1>were late twenties? Yeah? I was twenty eight. Yeah. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to hear that lead up because the night

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<v Speaker 1>that we're about to talk about it was very different

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<v Speaker 1>to all of these other times. Very Yes, So you

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<v Speaker 1>heard a knock, did you know? How did it all start? So?

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<v Speaker 2>I got a phone call, right, and he had been

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<v Speaker 2>at the beach with his friends and family and drinking,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, and he was ringing me incessantly, thing I

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<v Speaker 2>need to come over, and I need to come over,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was saying no. I was at this point

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<v Speaker 2>where I was like, I've got to say no. So

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<v Speaker 2>I kept saying no. And then he showed up on

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<v Speaker 2>my doorstep and I heard the knock on the door.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of knew it must be him because I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot of friends in the area yet, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I was fairly new to the area.

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<v Speaker 1>Went to the door.

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<v Speaker 2>My spidery senses were like, do not open the door

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<v Speaker 2>already yep. I just had a feeling. And then I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why, something overwrote it and I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>looked through the little peep hole saw it was him,

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<v Speaker 2>and he looked really distressed, you know. So I felt

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<v Speaker 2>for him, and I opened the door.

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<v Speaker 1>And you hadn't at that stage, had any reason to

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<v Speaker 1>fear this man.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not really no, I mean he was a dorman,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I knew he had to him at you.

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<v Speaker 1>No, not at all, not at all. So you open

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<v Speaker 1>the door, you let him in? What did he do?

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<v Speaker 2>What was his kind of pushed past me. So the

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<v Speaker 2>moment I opened the door, I saw his face and

0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.240
<v Speaker 2>I looked in his eyes and I saw someone else.

0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.080
<v Speaker 2>I was like, this is not the guy I know.

0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.599
<v Speaker 2>Instantly knew something was going on that was different to

0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:40.880
<v Speaker 2>other times that I'd seen him, So he.

0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Was in a darker place.

0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I think now I would say that was a psychotic episode,

0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 2>but at the time I just looked at him and thought,

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:49.680
<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, like, who is this guy? This is

0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.320
<v Speaker 2>not the guy I know. He pushed past me, walked

0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.880
<v Speaker 2>straight in. I started saying, You've got to leave. You

0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.840
<v Speaker 2>can't come in here, I told you, and followed him

0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.559
<v Speaker 2>down the hallway into the living room. And then it

0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.680
<v Speaker 2>gets a bit fuzzy at this point. To be honest,

0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:06.440
<v Speaker 2>there's a few things I remember. I remember he wouldn't

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:07.960
<v Speaker 2>let me leave, so I would try to leave and

0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.679
<v Speaker 2>he would block me. And this guy you could not

0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.400
<v Speaker 2>push past. He was not that kind of guy. And

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to get into an altercation as well,

0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.719
<v Speaker 2>So I wasn't being very physically pushy with him, right.

0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:19.400
<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to.

0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.120
<v Speaker 2>Encourage that sort of physicality, So I was talking. I

0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:24.960
<v Speaker 2>was trying to talk my way out of it. I

0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.480
<v Speaker 2>was like, I'm just going to make a phone call.

0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Don't worry, I'm just going to make a phone call

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.480
<v Speaker 2>and I was going to call the police, and he knew,

0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.200
<v Speaker 2>and so he This is when it got a little

0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.800
<v Speaker 2>bit more hairy. I reached for the phone and he

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.520
<v Speaker 2>pushed me, and I fell backwards over the couch. Luckily

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of knew how to fall because I've got some training,

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and I fell backwards and kind of flipped, and that

0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 2>was actually my only injury. It was the wrist that

0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.000
<v Speaker 2>got sort of pulled on the coffee table upside down,

0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.800
<v Speaker 2>doing a backward arch look, trying to save myself.

0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Because you give your martial arts at.

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.280
<v Speaker 2>This point, Yeah, well I wasn't training actively, but I

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>had done for five years in an earlier time, a

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>few years prior. Yeah, was he talking to you at

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 2>this point? Was he what did he want?

0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:06.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to astain that right, and I don't

0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 2>really remember a lot of what he said because I

0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 2>was calculating, you know, how am I going to save myself.

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I could not tell you how long we were in

0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.120
<v Speaker 2>that room, I don't know. And I was trying to

0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.080
<v Speaker 2>raise my voice sometimes to let people around know, like

0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.560
<v Speaker 2>to let tenants in other flats and things know that

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.559
<v Speaker 2>I was in trouble, like you have to leave, and

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>things like that, like why are you keeping me here?

0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 2>I was saying things loudly to kind of alert people

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.560
<v Speaker 2>in other apartments, and I think he was.

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Maybe there was some yelling. Yeah, I don't really remember,

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 1>so at this point, yeah, was their fear? Yeah? Oh yeah.

0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.600
<v Speaker 2>At that point, I was like, I don't really know

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 2>how I'm going to get out of this, and I

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.080
<v Speaker 2>also didn't understand, like where does this go? Like what

0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.079
<v Speaker 2>happens next? This is a bit scary, So there was

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of uncertainty. There was a lot of also

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>just shock at the situation because he had not been

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 2>like this before, and he clearly wasn't himself.

0:13:59.280 --> 0:13:59.679
<v Speaker 1>So I was.

0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I was scared and confused and calculating, yes, and trying

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 2>to work out how to get.

0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Out of it. Will you say that you flipped a

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 1>way out after being pushed. It did escalate from there,

0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>and he somehow made his way to the kitchen. Yeah,

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:17.280
<v Speaker 1>what happened then?

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 2>So I still don't really understand why I didn't just

0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:21.920
<v Speaker 2>run when he went to the kitchen. I think I

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 2>was probably a bit frozen at that point. There was

0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 2>probably a part of me that started to get to

0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the point of like, Okay, I don't know what to

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>do now, and I think I got a little bit

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 2>frozen at that point. I don't really remember exactly what

0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>happened there. I know he got a knife from the kitchen.

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.160
<v Speaker 2>It was big, it was like one of those global massive,

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 2>the biggest one, and he just stood between me and

0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the hallway and the door and held it out in

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.720
<v Speaker 2>front of him. And I don't remember what he was saying,

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 2>or I don't really remember much else except oh fuck,

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Like this is a whole different level now, and I'm

0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.840
<v Speaker 2>really in danger. You know, before that, he was an

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 2>angry man and I was a little bit stuck.

0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 1>But at that moment.

0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Something different had come into the picture, something far more terrifying.

0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:12.240
<v Speaker 2>And you could see he had terror in his face

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.720
<v Speaker 2>as well, like I don't know what I'm doing or

0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.720
<v Speaker 2>what I'm going to do, you know, there was a

0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.520
<v Speaker 2>real confusion on his face as well.

0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.000
<v Speaker 1>After the break, Elena tells us how she disarmed Kite

0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:28.520
<v Speaker 1>to get out of the dangerous situation. So he's standing

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:33.200
<v Speaker 1>there holding a knife, kind of staring at you. Yeah,

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.000
<v Speaker 1>how did you get your way out of that?

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 2>So, Fortunately, because I had lived in King's Cross as

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.280
<v Speaker 2>a young lady walking home on my own. I was

0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.120
<v Speaker 2>aware that the world is not the safest place for

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>young women walking the streets of the city. And I

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 2>had done some martial arts and I'd really loved it,

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and i'd done it for five years. And in the

0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>martial arts that I trained, you do learn knife defense,

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.080
<v Speaker 2>you learn to disarm people with knives, you learn a

0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.040
<v Speaker 2>little bit of technique. So I knew that I had

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 2>something that I could do. I was a little bit

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.080
<v Speaker 2>scared of doing that because then it's quite unpredictable, Like

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.200
<v Speaker 2>you lunge at somebody. If they want to, they can

0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.960
<v Speaker 2>engage in something. But the martial arts that I had learned,

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>it's a defensive martial arts. It's not really about escalation

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 2>or fighting. It's about defense. So that was fortunate, very fortunate,

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:26.280
<v Speaker 2>potentially life saving.

0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.400
<v Speaker 1>But it means you have to get into his space.

0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Well I was in his space. He was pretty close already.

0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:37.320
<v Speaker 2>So again I'm still a little bit I don't really

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 2>understand how I managed to do this, but I reached

0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.760
<v Speaker 2>towards his wrist, which is kind of one way that

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.080
<v Speaker 2>you can get a knife out of somebody's hand.

0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 1>But this man, his risks like three times the size

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:48.800
<v Speaker 1>of mine.

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>So I kind of knew that wouldn't be effective, but

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>it was like, I have to do something. So what

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 2>was interesting about it on reflection was that it turned

0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>the tables.

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Shocked him absolutely right, because he wasn't expecting to come

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.359
<v Speaker 1>at him. No, not at all. Nobody comes at him.

0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.840
<v Speaker 1>He's huge, you know. So you grabbed his wrist and well,

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:10.600
<v Speaker 1>I didn't grab it.

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 2>You sort of do like an X and sort of

0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a technique and it's just a way of moving

0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>it away without hurting yourself with the knife.

0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 1>So it wasn't a grab. It was kind of like

0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.879
<v Speaker 1>a block, Okay, an intentional block in a way. Do

0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.240
<v Speaker 1>you think it saved your life one hundred percent? Yeah?

0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.320
<v Speaker 2>I do, because I don't think he was him and

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:31.920
<v Speaker 2>I think he was just escalating.

0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.119
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know. I mean, I don't know. You

0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.480
<v Speaker 1>can never know, right, how do you know? But maybe

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.760
<v Speaker 1>once you'd done that block and he was obviously taken,

0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:43.879
<v Speaker 1>he was shocked. He was shocked that way. He ran.

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I ran right, I ran out the front door, and

0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.200
<v Speaker 2>you're yelling, had alerted neighbors. Yeah, so I ran downs

0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 2>on the top floor. I ran down about three or

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 2>four floors down a flight of stairs.

0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Pretty pretty quickly.

0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 2>As I was getting down to the lobby, the the

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 2>door of an apartment opened and a woman said, come

0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:03.679
<v Speaker 2>in here.

0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.520
<v Speaker 1>So she could hear you from all the way. Oh yeah, wow.

0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean also I was I may have been

0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.879
<v Speaker 2>pushed around a bit more than I remember, so they

0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>would have been banging, like when I got pushed, they

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:19.400
<v Speaker 2>would have been banging around. So yeah, it was really interesting.

0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 2>She invited me into her apartment. She had a baby

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 2>in her arms. She was a nurse, a courageous nurse,

0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.360
<v Speaker 2>I would say, in that moment. She said go into

0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the bedroom. And then her husband started flipping out and

0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.159
<v Speaker 2>getting angry at her for taking.

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 1>Me in because he was terrified. Well, yeah, they don't

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.439
<v Speaker 1>know who this man is terrified and wanted to protect

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:41.680
<v Speaker 1>his family. I understand that.

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:43.919
<v Speaker 2>So she and he were having an argument and she's like,

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.199
<v Speaker 2>be quiet. You know, I'm hiding in the bedroom. Go.

0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.520
<v Speaker 1>I can't believe I'm in a house and they're having

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:50.359
<v Speaker 1>an argument. Now.

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Ultimately, I mean, I'm laughing about it. It wasn't funny, obviously,

0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.000
<v Speaker 2>but it was kind of absurd. You know, there was

0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of absurd moments. Actually, when you look back,

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.440
<v Speaker 2>it's like, I can't believe this is my story. There's

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of disbeliefs still, and so the police eventually

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.680
<v Speaker 2>came and then I do remember. And this is the

0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.600
<v Speaker 2>bit that like, if you were making a TV drama

0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.479
<v Speaker 2>series and you show the end before the beginning, this

0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 2>is the bit you would show. It's me crouching by

0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:23.120
<v Speaker 2>the wheel of a police car on the street. It's

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 2>a Tuesday night, it's dark moon. There's seven police cars

0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and they're putting on there gear. They attactic because he

0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.639
<v Speaker 2>was armed, so they have to put on all the

0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 2>So there's like seven police cars, wow, and a lot

0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.639
<v Speaker 2>of movement. And they said just sit there, you know.

0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.920
<v Speaker 2>So I'm crouching. I'm like, this is so ridiculous. I mean,

0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.679
<v Speaker 2>I've just I'm shaking and you know, in a mess.

0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.199
<v Speaker 2>And they said just stay there, you know, to just

0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.840
<v Speaker 2>put me somewhere. I guess to hide me. So I

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 2>was literally crouching on the street and sort of watching

0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.159
<v Speaker 2>people like walk around, trying to work out what was

0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 2>going on. And then he was in the windows of

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 2>sun room and he's in the window upstairs with the knife.

0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 1>You could see.

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were trying to negotiate with him.

0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.240
<v Speaker 1>It was pretty bizarre. How did they end up bringing

0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.200
<v Speaker 1>him into custody? Well, I don't really know that story. Yeah,

0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:15.200
<v Speaker 1>that's a question for him.

0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I guess if he remembers, you know, it would be

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 2>really interesting to read that in a way.

0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.480
<v Speaker 1>But if they had placed you at the car and

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.719
<v Speaker 1>all left you there, does that mean I guess they

0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:25.639
<v Speaker 1>didn't all leave me.

0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:27.760
<v Speaker 2>There's usually someone coordinating, I guess.

0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:28.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.000
<v Speaker 2>They then took me to the police station for statements,

0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and my beautiful flatmate came with me, and we were

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:34.639
<v Speaker 2>there till two in the morning.

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.840
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, do you remember that time in the police

0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 1>station and giving statements? I remember this kind of in

0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:43.040
<v Speaker 1>it's like polaroids.

0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's like I don't remember it in

0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:48.359
<v Speaker 2>a in a fluid sequence.

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Memory does strange things, doesn't it, especially when there's trauma involved. Yeah. Yeah,

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.480
<v Speaker 1>these are my memories. It is my experience.

0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.960
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I still get some of those postcards

0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.199
<v Speaker 2>flashing up, you know, because I still do.

0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 1>I do martial arts again. Now.

0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.479
<v Speaker 2>I had a twenty year break with children and sorting

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 2>myself out, and now I'm a second degree black belt.

0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.440
<v Speaker 2>So when you train, you know, you do you train

0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.240
<v Speaker 2>with knives, and if I'm on the floor of the

0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the mats and I'm training, I'm highly

0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:24.199
<v Speaker 2>sensitive to the instructor's you know, sense of safety, how

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 2>he holds that space or she holds that space. Sometimes

0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 2>you get you know, occasionally someone who's not aware of

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 2>my situation or my history, and they can be a

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.399
<v Speaker 2>little insensitive, you know, and I often just have to

0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 2>sit down and kind of you know, breathe through it,

0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.040
<v Speaker 2>or sometimes just stop training. You know, I take care

0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 2>of myself. I have a different sensitivity to that kind

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:46.760
<v Speaker 2>of training now, which.

0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Is completely fair.

0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:49.840
<v Speaker 2>But it's also really good that I have that training

0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 2>and I can still do it. You know, It's taken

0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.359
<v Speaker 2>some doing. I have had moments where and this is

0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:59.200
<v Speaker 2>a really interesting other conversation, is that movement, martial arts

0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:03.359
<v Speaker 2>intense movement and confronting some of those fears in a way,

0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 2>or bringing those fears with you. I wouldn't say I

0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.760
<v Speaker 2>confront them. I would say bring them with me onto

0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.200
<v Speaker 2>the mats. And there are times where I fall apart,

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.399
<v Speaker 2>you know. And the people I train with, fortunately for

0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the most part, are amazing, and they will say just keep.

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.800
<v Speaker 1>Moving and I'll spa crying. You know, really, do you

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 1>think that retraining after twenty years, has it's brought all

0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.760
<v Speaker 1>of that back for you? Maybe brought what back? The

0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.280
<v Speaker 1>emotion if you're crying while sparring. Yeah, I don't know if.

0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.120
<v Speaker 2>It brings it back, because it's always there, all right,

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.800
<v Speaker 2>But maybe it allows me to move through it. Differently,

0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.920
<v Speaker 2>It gives me the opportunity to move through it, which

0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.840
<v Speaker 2>is something I really believe in. We don't go round,

0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:45.159
<v Speaker 2>We don't suppress, I mean we do, but ideally we

0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:50.160
<v Speaker 2>find a way to express and move through those deep emotions,

0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:52.360
<v Speaker 2>those past hurts, those wounds that we carry.

0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.600
<v Speaker 1>When you think back to once you'd had a chance

0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:58.920
<v Speaker 1>to catch your breath and you've done all the police

0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 1>stuff and you were alone again, do you remember how

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.560
<v Speaker 1>it felt? Yeah, when you tried to, when you were

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:10.359
<v Speaker 1>like what just happened? So the year following was, you know,

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.560
<v Speaker 1>a year of PTSD. Because when you get attacked in

0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:17.400
<v Speaker 1>your home, particularly something you know, there's no comparison between

0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.400
<v Speaker 1>adverse events, right, every single one is different, But when

0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:26.000
<v Speaker 1>it's at home, your safe place isn't safe anymore, so

0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.880
<v Speaker 1>you never feel safe so the PTSD's pretty intense.

0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.520
<v Speaker 2>It's very physical. But of course I didn't know I

0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 2>was in PTSD. No one told me that for eleven months.

0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Wow. So my life was.

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:43.200
<v Speaker 2>An utter binfire for that year, and no one knew

0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.520
<v Speaker 2>what to do. God loved them the people around me.

0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:46.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean I didn't have a lot of people around me,

0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>but the people that loved me didn't know what to do.

0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 2>So I isolated and I drank, and I tried really

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:55.920
<v Speaker 2>hard to stay in employment.

0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:57.040
<v Speaker 1>It didn't really work.

0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I moved multiple times, I get kicked out or you know.

0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.640
<v Speaker 2>It was just it was a nightmare. I was hallucinating.

0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Wo.

0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was a really intense experience. I could

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:08.960
<v Speaker 2>spend an hour telling you what it's like to have PTSD.

0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 2>For me, what that was like, it's very bizarre.

0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 1>So it was it was very physical but mental but psychological.

0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 1>It's like everything in your bod'm screaming, but not because

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:23.120
<v Speaker 1>you're numb, right, So so the brain protects you from

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:25.200
<v Speaker 1>retraumatizing yourself.

0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 2>So you go into this kind of weird lalla land.

0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.080
<v Speaker 2>And I literally was hallucina. I remember driving part while

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.440
<v Speaker 2>I was on a bus going past a building site

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:39.359
<v Speaker 2>and you know when you see those spiky pieces of

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 2>metal before concrete goes in and they have yellow. I

0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 2>saw a field of daffodils, and I was like, I

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 2>remember this so distinctly because I was shocked that I'd

0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 2>never noticed this beautiful field of flowers on my bus

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.720
<v Speaker 2>route before. Wow, Like that's how I know that. You know,

0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.679
<v Speaker 2>you're it's so beautiful. Really, what your brain does to

0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.560
<v Speaker 2>protect you just takes you to another place.

0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:05.720
<v Speaker 1>In that eleven months, Had you sought help?

0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean I was in complete denial. Okay, there was

0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:14.760
<v Speaker 2>no help to seek, honestly. I mean it's year two thousand.

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:20.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm a young woman. The police were my only people.

0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.560
<v Speaker 1>I could talk to about it. Like, who else do

0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.119
<v Speaker 1>you talk to about it? They're not interested? You know.

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:26.440
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't going to go to the police station so

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:27.160
<v Speaker 1>I can have a chat.

0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 2>There was no counselor or female violence person or any

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:32.800
<v Speaker 2>of those things.

0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:33.359
<v Speaker 1>It was none of that.

0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:36.760
<v Speaker 2>But I remember a few things. I remember my flatmate,

0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>who was just beautiful one night just said I can

0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:42.199
<v Speaker 2>see you're really hurting. I'm just gonna lie next to

0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you and just lay next to me on my bed

0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the whole night and just like held my hand. That

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:49.200
<v Speaker 2>was the only person that actually was and then soon

0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:51.679
<v Speaker 2>was like, you know, because I was a mess, and

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:52.920
<v Speaker 2>so he sort of said, I think you might have

0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:54.399
<v Speaker 2>to find someone else to live who's going through his

0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 2>own stuff, you know, so I couldn't pay the rent,

0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:58.680
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. It was just awful. It

0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 2>was an awful year, clinging to jobs and losing them.

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and at the same time, he was going through

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.119
<v Speaker 1>the court system because he was charged, so there.

0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Was an av O in place, which which was broken. Actually,

0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:15.439
<v Speaker 2>at one point he followed me home one morning and

0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:17.639
<v Speaker 2>I skillfully led him to a hotel lobby so that

0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:20.560
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't on my own and then went to the

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:21.680
<v Speaker 2>police station reported it.

0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.199
<v Speaker 1>And that was really scary because that would have been

0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:26.320
<v Speaker 1>the first time you'd seen.

0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:30.159
<v Speaker 2>Probably yeah, yeah, I'd say, so, yeah, yeah. He was

0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:32.080
<v Speaker 2>just like it was five in the morning. I was

0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 2>coming home for friends place i'd stayed at, and he

0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 2>was sitting outside a cafe that we used to go

0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to a lot, just sitting there on a milk crate.

0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:43.240
<v Speaker 2>I probably quite drunk, and I was, and it was

0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 2>like two blocks in my house and so I thought,

0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:48.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's no one around.

0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:53.080
<v Speaker 1>I just casually walked to a hotel lobby and.

0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Walked around secretly, like quietly, going help me, help me,

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:57.600
<v Speaker 2>please call the police. You know.

0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.280
<v Speaker 1>That was pretty for long. Do you remember did you

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:05.480
<v Speaker 1>Did you go twenty of the court proceedings? Yeah? I did.

0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:07.520
<v Speaker 2>I think they wanted me to, and I don't remember

0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:09.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot about it. I remember waiting in a room

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:14.960
<v Speaker 2>to be called. I remember going in there and being

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:15.639
<v Speaker 2>pretty kind.

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Really.

0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:21.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did understand on some level that what he'd

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:27.600
<v Speaker 2>done was not intentional. Weirdly, even though he threatened your life. Yeah, weirdly,

0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Like I don't know. I'm a deeply compassionate person. I've

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.240
<v Speaker 2>experienced some things in my life, and so I think

0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:40.399
<v Speaker 2>I had some compassion for him. I also was very

0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:43.040
<v Speaker 2>clear that he needed to go to court and he

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:46.080
<v Speaker 2>needed to face the consequences. I didn't want to protect

0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:47.800
<v Speaker 2>him from that, and I didn't want to protect him

0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.760
<v Speaker 2>from the natural consequences of what he'd done. So I

0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:53.240
<v Speaker 2>think I was just quite a matter of fact, you know,

0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:59.800
<v Speaker 2>I was honest without Yeah, he was.

0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:02.719
<v Speaker 1>Con forty did to you? Yeah, I got a criminal record.

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Were you able to move on a bit after the

0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:09.720
<v Speaker 1>because what was caught, like, for you, what was dealing

0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:13.439
<v Speaker 1>with all the police and all of those systems? What

0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:13.720
<v Speaker 1>was that?

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Remember March? I don't remember much. I think there was

0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:19.800
<v Speaker 2>a woman next to me, and I think it was

0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:23.119
<v Speaker 2>fairly brief. They just pulled me in, got me to

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:26.399
<v Speaker 2>say something, and I left like there wasn't They didn't

0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 2>put me through the whole thing, which is which is great. Yeah, right,

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.480
<v Speaker 2>And that's why I actually didn't even know he was convicted.

0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Didn't until recently. Yeah, we spoke recently when I said

0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing this podcast about you. Let's have a conversation,

0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and we spoke about what happened after this event.

0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:47.240
<v Speaker 1>So you didn't even know what had happened? Not really?

0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, I hadn't remembered. Y let's put it like that. Well,

0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 1>you had your own stuff coming on.

0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:53.880
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't my key focus what was going on for him,

0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:57.520
<v Speaker 2>that's for sure. No, Yeah, I was a complete mess.

0:28:57.640 --> 0:28:58.160
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't.

0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:00.840
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't until I think eleven twelve months later. I

0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:04.720
<v Speaker 2>went to a GP and I still remember her her name. Actually,

0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I was not so straight. I remember it very clearly.

0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:10.760
<v Speaker 2>And she listened to my story and she said, you've

0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>got PTSD.

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Do you know what that is?

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:16.200
<v Speaker 2>So I'm pretty sure from what you've told me. Even

0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:18.400
<v Speaker 2>now I get chills because no one had named it.

0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:23.040
<v Speaker 1>This is a bit where I cry. Was it a

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:26.360
<v Speaker 1>turning point for you? Well? I had been like I

0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 1>had become like anarexic.

0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.200
<v Speaker 2>People would stare at me when I walk down the

0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:36.600
<v Speaker 2>road like I honestly, I felt like I wasn't really

0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>worth anything.

0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:38.680
<v Speaker 1>I felt like my.

0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Not really, I wasn't worth anything. But there was no

0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 2>point eating. That's how it felt.

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:48.200
<v Speaker 1>Like. What was the point?

0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:53.120
<v Speaker 2>I just felt so lost, so deeply lost, and pretty unsupported.

0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:55.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there was people that were trying to support me,

0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:58.280
<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't getting to me. And it was a

0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:01.960
<v Speaker 2>really hard time, and I felt very alone and vulnerable

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:07.520
<v Speaker 2>and being a sort of single young woman experiencing trauma

0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:10.840
<v Speaker 2>without the right support, you know, in a community of

0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:13.000
<v Speaker 2>people that know you as well, like it's kind of

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>visible and seeing, you know, people would see me.

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:17.520
<v Speaker 1>His family was in that area.

0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I remember one of his brothers saying something really nasty

0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to me when I walked past him on the street.

0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 2>I felt very exposed and kind of blamed actually, because

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>he was like someone who was generally a great guy.

0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>So there was this kind of inference that I was

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:33.160
<v Speaker 2>somehow at fault.

0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, how gross is that? It is gross?

0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:41.360
<v Speaker 2>And so I, being so weak and vulnerable and at

0:30:41.400 --> 0:30:44.320
<v Speaker 2>my worst moment, I think, took some of that on

0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.200
<v Speaker 2>and that was awful, and so I.

0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Felt very very.

0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, guilty or or like like I was

0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 2>a terrible person or had somehow brought upon myself or

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 2>made a mistake or you know, not clearly thinking those thoughts.

0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:01.760
<v Speaker 2>But that was at the heart of it, and that

0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 2>had come from things earlier in my life as well.

0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Let's be honest, I had my own stuff that that

0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 2>was activating. Yeah, you know from earlier in my life,

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 2>earlier life traumas, family traumas, like other things, and this

0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:16.560
<v Speaker 2>is what happens. Something happens, and all the other traumas

0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:21.120
<v Speaker 2>light up. So I was in that place, very dark place,

0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.360
<v Speaker 2>and so when this woman said to me, I think

0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 2>you've got PTSD, I was like, oh my gosh, like

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:32.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a name. And somehow that ability to be witnessed

0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:37.280
<v Speaker 2>and seen in the pain that I was experiencing was

0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:41.400
<v Speaker 2>absolutely transformative. And she put me on sickness benefits you know,

0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:46.800
<v Speaker 2>she gave me some time to just recover, you know,

0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>and a little bit of care.

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:56.040
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine that's only the start. Yeah, what did

0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.720
<v Speaker 1>that healing journey look like? How long have you got there?

0:32:00.600 --> 0:32:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I continue to make some poor decisions and end up

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.400
<v Speaker 2>in difficult situations, not as bad as that, But I

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>had another relationship, which again beautiful, amazing man, but we

0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>brought our traumas to the table and it was difficult.

0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 2>And so I had a child at thirty one and

0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.719
<v Speaker 2>at four months he was four months old, whisplit up.

0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:27.400
<v Speaker 2>And I was a single mother for about seven years.

0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:31.320
<v Speaker 2>But in that first two years I was recovering from

0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:35.000
<v Speaker 2>so many things, and it culminated in a period of homelessness,

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I had a caseworker and then ultimately

0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:43.640
<v Speaker 2>eventually that that was my kind of ultimate turning point,

0:32:43.680 --> 0:32:46.520
<v Speaker 2>to be honest, where I went, what is my lot?

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:32:46.800 --> 0:32:50.480
<v Speaker 2>What has my life become? And he's my beautiful little boy,

0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, and he's like eighteen months old, and I'm homeless,

0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm still in really precarious situations and there's it's

0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:01.000
<v Speaker 2>nobody's fault, it's nobody's doing.

0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:04.600
<v Speaker 1>This is my life. I have to do something, and

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 1>that was the.

0:33:05.040 --> 0:33:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Point where things really really changed for me and I

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:10.520
<v Speaker 2>got some different support and went on this like quest,

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>personal development quest, and that was kind of that seven

0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 2>years five to seven years, well, I guess was five

0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:21.480
<v Speaker 2>years was my was my quest, and that was a

0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of things.

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:29.560
<v Speaker 1>When people hear about really violent things happening like this,

0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:33.920
<v Speaker 1>I think it's hard when you've never experienced this to

0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:37.400
<v Speaker 1>really understand the long tail it can have. Yeah, oh

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:40.600
<v Speaker 1>my gosh, yes, Like we're talking to you twenty six

0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.160
<v Speaker 1>years after the fact, I'm still feeling it. I'm like

0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:47.240
<v Speaker 1>my bellies and to hear how it kind of affected

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:51.040
<v Speaker 1>the next decade and then the decade after that. Like

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:57.960
<v Speaker 1>this one traumatic event, the power it has to kind

0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.480
<v Speaker 1>of shatter so many different aspects of your life.

0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:03.360
<v Speaker 2>It does, and I always see it like it connects

0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the dots. It's sort of to me, I feel like

0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:08.120
<v Speaker 2>it's like festoon lights, you know, those string lights, and

0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.600
<v Speaker 2>I feel like this is one of the bigger ones, right,

0:34:11.200 --> 0:34:13.720
<v Speaker 2>but there's all these other little ones and they connect.

0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:16.759
<v Speaker 2>There was a series of events that led up to

0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:20.959
<v Speaker 2>me being too kind to say no to a man

0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:22.640
<v Speaker 2>that I knew had the potential to hurt me at

0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:25.319
<v Speaker 2>the door. I can take full responsibility for that. I'm

0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:29.160
<v Speaker 2>not blaming myself in any way, but I can see

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:33.640
<v Speaker 2>how that occurred. You can see I can connect the dots,

0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:36.680
<v Speaker 2>and that's where the work for me.

0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Was to be done. Up next, Elena tells me how

0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:44.400
<v Speaker 1>she feels about Kai today and about the power of forgiveness.

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:50.600
<v Speaker 1>When I first started talking to you, yeah, I was

0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 1>really surprised to hear the way you spoke about him.

0:34:57.320 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 1>You weren't. Usually when someone does something that violent, it's

0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 1>very like I, you know, we hate that person, we're

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:08.640
<v Speaker 1>not talking about that person. And immediately I saw that

0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:11.520
<v Speaker 1>you didn't feel like that and that you had had

0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 1>some sporadic contact with this man. Can you explain that

0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:20.080
<v Speaker 1>a bit? Because this man, this man held a knife

0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 1>to you. How did you get to that point where

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 1>you can we talk about forgiveness? Yeah, So this is

0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:28.240
<v Speaker 1>a tricky topic. Okay.

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:31.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a tricky topic because when something like this happens,

0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:37.600
<v Speaker 2>that's not when you do the forgiving, Okay, And forgiveness

0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:41.320
<v Speaker 2>is not something you can fake like this. Forgiveness is

0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 2>a process, and for me, it's a process that I

0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:49.960
<v Speaker 2>do actively do for myself, and I do that because

0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:55.600
<v Speaker 2>when something happens that is traumatic, that wounds you, that

0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:59.920
<v Speaker 2>leaves a big hurt behind, you know, the trim thing

0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:02.520
<v Speaker 2>that we talk about now often is Drama's not the

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.480
<v Speaker 2>thing that happened. It's the wound that it leaves and

0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:08.680
<v Speaker 2>the wound that it leaves. In my opinion and my

0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:15.760
<v Speaker 2>understanding is that we hold this experience that we had,

0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:19.680
<v Speaker 2>a part of us stays there, and we hold it

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:24.120
<v Speaker 2>inside us, and when we do that, we stay connected

0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 2>with it. You know, if you say point to my chair,

0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I can point to the chair. If you say point

0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.359
<v Speaker 2>to gem Or, I can point to Gemma. If you say,

0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:34.160
<v Speaker 2>point to this experience. It doesn't live here. It's not

0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:37.480
<v Speaker 2>real here. It's only real in here in my head

0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>and heart. And so it only lives as long as

0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:44.839
<v Speaker 2>I give it that attention and stay connected with it. Now,

0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:47.440
<v Speaker 2>you don't get to choose to some degree how connected

0:36:47.480 --> 0:36:49.280
<v Speaker 2>you are with an event, certainly not in the first

0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:54.160
<v Speaker 2>years after it or maybe ever. Okay, But for me,

0:36:55.200 --> 0:36:58.319
<v Speaker 2>I was aware the amount of energy that I was

0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:04.960
<v Speaker 2>spending keeping this thing going inside me, on staying connected

0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:08.640
<v Speaker 2>with that, on keeping a part of me there. So

0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:11.560
<v Speaker 2>the work that I've done over the years, and it's

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:14.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of years, you know, and very decisive and active,

0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:18.160
<v Speaker 2>intentional work, and certainly not on my own. With a

0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:22.799
<v Speaker 2>lot of help, I have come to understand that when

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:28.120
<v Speaker 2>we forgive, and actually the next step of transformation is gratitude.

0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:31.120
<v Speaker 2>Like this is a weird one. I'm extremely grateful for

0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 2>these experiences, and that's very strange to say out loud,

0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:38.239
<v Speaker 2>but it's not. If you bear with me that when

0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:41.600
<v Speaker 2>I can forgive the situation and the person and myself,

0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I reclaim that energy. That energy comes back to me.

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:48.919
<v Speaker 2>I get to use it in the present. It gets

0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to be my vitality. It gets to be my courage

0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:55.480
<v Speaker 2>because it takes so much courage to do this process,

0:37:55.520 --> 0:38:01.200
<v Speaker 2>to forgive something so awful that's courage, and courage is hard.

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:04.000
<v Speaker 2>So I want to use that energy for the courage.

0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:06.719
<v Speaker 2>I want to use that energy for my life now,

0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:09.200
<v Speaker 2>for my kids, now, for this to be able to

0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:11.799
<v Speaker 2>tell the story, to be able to work with other

0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:15.960
<v Speaker 2>people with their past heurts and wounds. So that's my choice.

0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:21.600
<v Speaker 2>The gratitude step is that now I understand how those

0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.719
<v Speaker 2>things made me who I am, that woman that let

0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:28.640
<v Speaker 2>him in the door is this woman.

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:33.280
<v Speaker 1>And without that woman, I wouldn't be me now.

0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.359
<v Speaker 2>So I'm incredibly grateful that this occurred, as weird as

0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:41.160
<v Speaker 2>that is, and that doesn't come quickly, and that doesn't

0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.400
<v Speaker 2>come immediately maybe ever, and that's okay.

0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Is there a difference between forgiving the experience and forgiving

0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:51.400
<v Speaker 1>the man? Though? I don't know? Maybe, because how do

0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:53.959
<v Speaker 1>you feel towards him now? Ah, this is.

0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:57.880
<v Speaker 2>A strange question, right. I feel affection towards him, and

0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:01.719
<v Speaker 2>that's because I know him, and he and I have

0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:04.080
<v Speaker 2>been in a community, you know, for years and years

0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and years, and we were before we met. That's how

0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.480
<v Speaker 2>we met. And his best friend I've known since I

0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:11.480
<v Speaker 2>was eighteen. We were in this really cool subculture of

0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.920
<v Speaker 2>like hip hop and music and clothing and parties in

0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>the in the late eighties and early nineties. It was

0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:19.760
<v Speaker 2>a really special time. It was a really tight knit community.

0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 2>And so I still see that man my friend, and occasionally,

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:28.200
<v Speaker 2>very occasionally I still see Kai, not very often. But

0:39:28.320 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>it was funny not that long ago, I was at

0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:33.200
<v Speaker 2>a gig and I was meeting my friend and Kai

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:36.160
<v Speaker 2>was there first, and so we hung out a little

0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 2>bit and it was interesting.

0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:40.200
<v Speaker 1>But he's said sorry to me. He said sorry to my.

0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Whole family, as he's told my family if they ever

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.279
<v Speaker 2>need anything, he's there. He's told me if I ever

0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:50.040
<v Speaker 2>need anything, he's there. He knows what he did and

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:52.640
<v Speaker 2>he is happy to make amends for it, and he's

0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:55.880
<v Speaker 2>had his own reckoning in his own way, which I

0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:59.240
<v Speaker 2>can't speak to obviously. But we spoke before this because

0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:01.400
<v Speaker 2>I called him to say I was doing this and

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:03.160
<v Speaker 2>to let him know about it, and we spoke for

0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:05.640
<v Speaker 2>the first time about what happened afterwards, you know, and

0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:07.319
<v Speaker 2>that was an incredible experience as well.

0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:10.319
<v Speaker 1>And with your blessing, we're going to speak to him.

0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.280
<v Speaker 1>But what was it like for you to hear his side?

0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 1>It was fascinating.

0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Actually, I didn't know what it ensued for him, you know,

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I knew, I guess a little more than originally the

0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:26.600
<v Speaker 2>reasons that he had become psychotic that evening. I understood

0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:31.200
<v Speaker 2>later what had led up to that for him. I

0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:36.600
<v Speaker 2>don't excuse his behavior in any way. I don't condone

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.920
<v Speaker 2>anything that he did, but I forgive it because I

0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:47.160
<v Speaker 2>need to, because it serves me, because it allows me freedom,

0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:49.440
<v Speaker 2>the energy that it gives me to not have to

0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:53.080
<v Speaker 2>stay there and hold that is worth it. And it's

0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:55.400
<v Speaker 2>like I say, it takes a lot of courage and

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:59.040
<v Speaker 2>it has led to me being a much more understanding,

0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:02.839
<v Speaker 2>like the breadth and depth of my experience is so

0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:06.920
<v Speaker 2>much greater for it. And so that's a true gift

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:08.719
<v Speaker 2>and I use that in my work now every day.

0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:14.319
<v Speaker 1>Not all women survive they're attackers. Not all women are

0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:19.480
<v Speaker 1>in relationships that it would be healthy to go back

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:23.520
<v Speaker 1>and talk to that person. And I do think we

0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:27.360
<v Speaker 1>need to acknowledge that while telling your story. This is

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:31.880
<v Speaker 1>a very nuanced and individual situation. But there are so

0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:37.440
<v Speaker 1>many women out there who are terrified of their attackers course,

0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:41.560
<v Speaker 1>and they should never engage with them again. And I

0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:44.320
<v Speaker 1>don't want anyone to listen to this and think, oh,

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.600
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, I should reach back out. I just want.

0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:51.120
<v Speaker 2>To state really, really clearly that the way that you

0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:56.000
<v Speaker 2>navigate what happens for you is absolutely yours. No one

0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:58.520
<v Speaker 2>can tell you what's right, no one can tell you

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:01.719
<v Speaker 2>how to do it. It's so personal. You know, I

0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:05.400
<v Speaker 2>mentioned that I went on a quest that was my quest.

0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Nobody will be the same, No to are similar. And

0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:12.520
<v Speaker 2>this is not me saying this is how you do it.

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:14.439
<v Speaker 2>There is no This is how you do it. There's

0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:18.080
<v Speaker 2>no roadmap. The quest is not mapped.

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:19.480
<v Speaker 1>That's part of.

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:24.359
<v Speaker 2>It, right, and absolutely every single day I will say

0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:26.960
<v Speaker 2>to anyone who comes in and says, oh, what should

0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I do?

0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Are you safe? That is the question? Are you saying?

0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:31.200
<v Speaker 1>One question? Always?

0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Because if you're not safe, you can't do shit, There's nothing.

0:42:38.680 --> 0:42:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Safety is the only prerequisite to anything else. So safety

0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:47.960
<v Speaker 2>in your body, in your circumstances, physically, emotionally, is underpins

0:42:48.000 --> 0:42:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the whole story.

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:53.920
<v Speaker 1>You now help other people, don't you. You're tell us

0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:56.680
<v Speaker 1>what a somatic therapist is firstly, so.

0:42:56.680 --> 0:42:58.759
<v Speaker 2>I answer this question differently every time I do it,

0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:02.480
<v Speaker 2>because every session is different. I do something called root

0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.120
<v Speaker 2>cause therapy, which is a very specific modality, but I

0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:08.359
<v Speaker 2>also am a somatic therapist, which essentially means that I

0:43:08.440 --> 0:43:11.920
<v Speaker 2>do therapy where we go through the body first. So

0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:16.440
<v Speaker 2>I am teaching people. Are helping people to understand the

0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:19.160
<v Speaker 2>signals their body is sending them, and I'm helping them

0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:21.480
<v Speaker 2>to interpret those signals and learn the language of the

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:26.120
<v Speaker 2>body and become more whole as a result. Because parts

0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:28.680
<v Speaker 2>of us, like I said, fragment off when we have traumas,

0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:30.839
<v Speaker 2>parts of us stay there, and trauma is a word

0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:33.360
<v Speaker 2>that is a bit controversial. Let's just say wounds or

0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:38.279
<v Speaker 2>past hurts, unprocessed emotions, whatever you want to call it.

0:43:38.719 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 1>But there's a big link.

0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:41.239
<v Speaker 2>We know now there's a lot of research into the

0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:43.600
<v Speaker 2>way that there's a big link between very real mental

0:43:43.640 --> 0:43:47.719
<v Speaker 2>emotional physiological symptoms and the way that we have experienced

0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:51.600
<v Speaker 2>emotion or experienced our past, or experience our emotions day

0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:55.480
<v Speaker 2>to day. So you know, the suppression of emotion or

0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the inability to deal with things in our past can

0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:02.000
<v Speaker 2>become symptoms, very real symptoms.

0:44:03.160 --> 0:44:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you think our current systems are set up to

0:44:08.040 --> 0:44:16.040
<v Speaker 1>support people that are experiencing these hurts, these big violent

0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:18.960
<v Speaker 1>hurts at the hands of other people. Yeah.

0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:21.400
<v Speaker 2>I've got to say I'm not an expert on the systems.

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:26.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm an unconventional I'm an alternative, alternative health practitioner, So

0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:29.239
<v Speaker 2>I can't speak as an expert. I can tell you

0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:33.600
<v Speaker 2>what I hear from my clients every day and friends

0:44:33.600 --> 0:44:37.359
<v Speaker 2>and family that there appears to be a gap. And

0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't think this is anybody's fault. I don't think

0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:44.759
<v Speaker 2>a doctor, a nurse, a police woman, a policeman. I

0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:46.960
<v Speaker 2>don't think any of these people are at fault here.

0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I want to be really clear about this. I think

0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:54.000
<v Speaker 2>that the frameworks that some of them are given are limited.

0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Even psychologists, psychiatrists, they do a great job of what

0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:01.720
<v Speaker 2>they do, but I think some some of their frameworks

0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:06.759
<v Speaker 2>have a gap. And that's the gap I'm noticing day in,

0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:11.920
<v Speaker 2>day out, And it's something to do with the interaction

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.160
<v Speaker 2>between our own conscious mind, which I believe is our body.

0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Our body holds an innate wisdom. I mean, I say,

0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I believe there's a lot of research into this. It's

0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:24.040
<v Speaker 2>not just me that believes this. There's you know, psychotherapy

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:25.960
<v Speaker 2>is built on this. There's a whole lot of stuff

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:29.680
<v Speaker 2>that's built on this idea. Traditional Chinese medicine are evetic medicine,

0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:32.480
<v Speaker 2>forms of medicine that are thousands of years older than

0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:36.560
<v Speaker 2>ours acknowledge this. So when we start to bring in

0:45:36.600 --> 0:45:39.279
<v Speaker 2>that kind of understanding that the body is our unconscious

0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and that it holds things for us, and we start

0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to interact with that, and we allow nurture and save spaces,

0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:50.200
<v Speaker 2>and we allow the power of a witness, a caring,

0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:55.480
<v Speaker 2>compassionate witness, it is transformative and that sometimes just in

0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the busyness of you know, a crisis situation, like emergency

0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:02.680
<v Speaker 2>workers and doctors and specialists, and you know, they're busy,

0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>they're doing their little piece of the pie, and I

0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:08.400
<v Speaker 2>get that, but it sometimes gets lost and missed. And

0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:11.279
<v Speaker 2>I speak to people every day who experience that.

0:46:12.560 --> 0:46:16.000
<v Speaker 1>And you're kind of seeing these people after those services

0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:19.560
<v Speaker 1>haven't helped them. Sometimes, yeah, yeah, sometimes.

0:46:19.640 --> 0:46:22.160
<v Speaker 2>It's a huge variety of people. I see men, women

0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:26.000
<v Speaker 2>sometimes in crisis, sometimes dealing with a crisis that happened

0:46:26.040 --> 0:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>many years ago because it's starting to come up, starting

0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to be activated for them by their life at the

0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:33.719
<v Speaker 2>current time, or they just get symptoms. They don't know

0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:35.600
<v Speaker 2>what's going on and they need help to work it out,

0:46:35.719 --> 0:46:36.759
<v Speaker 2>Like why is this happening to me?

0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:41.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, given what happened to you and then the

0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:46.120
<v Speaker 1>work you do watching our world right now, the fact

0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:50.280
<v Speaker 1>that a woman is dying at the hands of usually

0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:53.040
<v Speaker 1>a man, every once a week, what's that like for

0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 1>you to see that playing out?

0:46:54.880 --> 0:47:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I feel helpless, I feel motivated. I do sometimes volunteer,

0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:08.160
<v Speaker 2>and I do what I can. I feel at times

0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:12.360
<v Speaker 2>overwhelmed by that fact and the way that I've chosen

0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:15.720
<v Speaker 2>to approach it is that I don't know. My skill

0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.600
<v Speaker 2>set is not suited to prevention. I have some really

0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:21.560
<v Speaker 2>amazing friends working in that space. The only way that

0:47:21.600 --> 0:47:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I can help with prevention is to empower women, or

0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:27.200
<v Speaker 2>to help them know themselves, or to help them trust themselves.

0:47:27.280 --> 0:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>You know how I said, I had a spidery sense.

0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Body told me I'm a somatic therapist. My body told

0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.919
<v Speaker 2>me do not open that door. But at that point

0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:39.399
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't trained in listening to it. Our body gives

0:47:39.480 --> 0:47:42.839
<v Speaker 2>us so much information that we don't listen to. So

0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:46.839
<v Speaker 2>my approach now is to give people that I'm really

0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:50.239
<v Speaker 2>motivated to work in the space of that gap with

0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:53.399
<v Speaker 2>people in that system as well. I would absolutely love

0:47:54.040 --> 0:47:57.120
<v Speaker 2>to find a way to advocate for the people in

0:47:57.160 --> 0:48:00.920
<v Speaker 2>there doing this work where the first responders, whether it's

0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:02.840
<v Speaker 2>the martial arts instructors, you know, because a lot of

0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>people end up doing martial arts after while in incidents,

0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:08.240
<v Speaker 2>to learn to be just a bit more trauma informed

0:48:08.280 --> 0:48:11.480
<v Speaker 2>and to understand how to show that care even amidst

0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:14.400
<v Speaker 2>all the hustle and bustle, and how to understand I

0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:17.799
<v Speaker 2>guess you know what people in those situations need and

0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:20.600
<v Speaker 2>in a way that goes beyond just the practical.

0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:24.160
<v Speaker 1>It's hard because I want to talk about martial arts,

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.600
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, I was thinking, I don't women shouldn't have

0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:31.879
<v Speaker 1>to learn martial arts, but well, it's interesting because it's

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.440
<v Speaker 1>not on us to stop violent men. They need to

0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:38.359
<v Speaker 1>be working on themselves. Martial arts isn't only that I

0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:41.359
<v Speaker 1>was going to say, tell me about why we all

0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:42.800
<v Speaker 1>need to be doing martial arts.

0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Look, there's a huge, huge place when you're dealing with

0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:53.400
<v Speaker 2>any kind of deeply difficult emotional situation. Movement is medicine.

0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:54.319
<v Speaker 1>Like we know.

0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:59.840
<v Speaker 2>You ask anyone who has done even high performance athletes

0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:06.360
<v Speaker 2>or weightlifters or dances, anyone who's done really intense physical

0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:10.040
<v Speaker 2>activity that they will tell you it's more than just that.

0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a whole it's a whole self activity.

0:49:15.280 --> 0:49:17.560
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I mentioned that having past hers and

0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:19.759
<v Speaker 2>traumas can can fragment us, it can keep part of

0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:22.319
<v Speaker 2>us in the past. Or when you bring it all

0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:26.920
<v Speaker 2>back together and become fully present in something that's transformational.

0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:30.719
<v Speaker 2>And I often say that you won't be able to

0:49:30.719 --> 0:49:33.640
<v Speaker 2>call yourself back from your wounded past unless you are

0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:38.960
<v Speaker 2>able to build safety in the present. So building safety. Yes,

0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:41.839
<v Speaker 2>self defense is safety. I do not feel afraid, rightly

0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:43.440
<v Speaker 2>or wrongly. If I walk down the street at night,

0:49:44.320 --> 0:49:46.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel afraid. I always get a shock when

0:49:46.760 --> 0:49:49.400
<v Speaker 2>my friend says, oh, well you walk me to my car,

0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:53.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh really, because I don't think that way.

0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:53.319
<v Speaker 1>Don't you.

0:49:53.520 --> 0:49:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I just don't because I would ask you. Most women do,

0:49:56.880 --> 0:50:00.440
<v Speaker 2>that's right, most women do. A man recently who I

0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:02.520
<v Speaker 2>sort of sometimes work with, said do you want me

0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:03.719
<v Speaker 2>to walk you to carr And I sort of burst

0:50:03.719 --> 0:50:04.160
<v Speaker 2>out laughing.

0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:05.719
<v Speaker 1>Here's trying to be nice, you know. I was like,

0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:07.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't think. I don't think I need you to.

0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:09.239
<v Speaker 2>I can protect you if you want, you know what

0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:11.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Like, I feel confident in my ability to

0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 2>protect myself.

0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:12.799
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's brazen, but I'm trained, you know.

0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:19.720
<v Speaker 1>And martial arts. From what I understand is it doesn't

0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:22.080
<v Speaker 1>matter the size of the person. It's about the skill.

0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:23.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm that big, yeah.

0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>And I train with very big men for the most part,

0:50:25.880 --> 0:50:29.120
<v Speaker 2>very big strong men. No, it's it's technique.

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's a little harder if you don't get

0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:33.680
<v Speaker 1>the technique right, that's for sure. But when you're.

0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Training martial arts. You're in a place of complete immersion.

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:40.600
<v Speaker 2>You have to be you got someone you know.

0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:41.600
<v Speaker 1>It's high stakes.

0:50:42.040 --> 0:50:47.160
<v Speaker 2>So when I'm training ideally, when I walk on the mats,

0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:51.960
<v Speaker 2>everything stays outside. I'm in an interaction. It's a collaborative.

0:50:51.960 --> 0:50:53.040
<v Speaker 2>It's a group again.

0:50:53.120 --> 0:50:53.440
<v Speaker 1>Groups.

0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:56.000
<v Speaker 2>I think groups and other people have a huge place

0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:59.319
<v Speaker 2>in healing from difficulty. I think that, you know, doing

0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:01.560
<v Speaker 2>things on your own, isolation is your worst enemy if

0:51:01.600 --> 0:51:02.560
<v Speaker 2>you're going through something.

0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:04.000
<v Speaker 1>So there's that.

0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:08.080
<v Speaker 2>There's the community element. You build trust with men. That's

0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:12.680
<v Speaker 2>amazing for someone with my history, and physically it makes

0:51:12.680 --> 0:51:15.760
<v Speaker 2>me strong. Emotionally it makes me strong. It's not easy,

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:21.640
<v Speaker 2>but there's a resilience element, and there's a consistency. I'm

0:51:21.680 --> 0:51:23.360
<v Speaker 2>not great with consistency, but I kind of have to

0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:25.960
<v Speaker 2>show up. If I want to grade to a second

0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:29.160
<v Speaker 2>degree black belt, I have to keep going. It makes

0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:32.239
<v Speaker 2>me show up. So it gives me a lot. Yeah,

0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:34.200
<v Speaker 2>it gives me a lot. It's not really about the

0:51:34.200 --> 0:51:36.400
<v Speaker 2>self defense and the fighting. In the end, it's about

0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:41.359
<v Speaker 2>meeting yourself. It's about becoming whole in more moments. That's

0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:42.000
<v Speaker 2>how it feels.

0:51:42.880 --> 0:51:44.880
<v Speaker 1>I think I need to start martial arts. Yeah, I

0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:45.920
<v Speaker 1>think everybody does.

0:51:46.400 --> 0:51:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm really interested in the intersection between martial arts and

0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:53.080
<v Speaker 2>healing from trauma, and this is something that might come

0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 2>into that advocacy. I'm sort of something's hatching. It's hatching. Yeah,

0:51:58.200 --> 0:51:58.880
<v Speaker 2>watch your face.

0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Your son. You went on to have two more children, Yeah,

0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:07.120
<v Speaker 1>I have three kids. How has everything you've experienced, particularly

0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:09.840
<v Speaker 1>going through something like that. You know you've got girls,

0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:13.399
<v Speaker 1>So how how's it influenced your parenting and the way

0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:15.520
<v Speaker 1>you've brought them up into the world.

0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I guess you know, I have concerns for them at times,

0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:23.919
<v Speaker 2>but they're not me as well. They've had a very

0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:27.799
<v Speaker 2>very stable upbringing for the most part, and certainly the

0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:29.680
<v Speaker 2>second two have. The first one a little bit less so.

0:52:29.800 --> 0:52:32.319
<v Speaker 2>But we've done a lot of work to support him,

0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:35.759
<v Speaker 2>and he's been well supported throughout his life. And my

0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:39.320
<v Speaker 2>current husband, who said he might not listen to this podcast,

0:52:39.360 --> 0:52:44.080
<v Speaker 2>by the way, is an amazing man and has become

0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:46.799
<v Speaker 2>a safe space for me and a protective for me

0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:49.960
<v Speaker 2>in a way and for my kids. And so we

0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:54.920
<v Speaker 2>are lucky, very fortunate to have that experience, extremely fortunate,

0:52:55.719 --> 0:52:58.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think my kids are aware of that. I'm

0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:01.800
<v Speaker 2>pretty honest with them. My young boy, he's nine, He said,

0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:03.799
<v Speaker 2>I told him a little bit about this just in

0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:06.520
<v Speaker 2>case someone heard it, you know, And I told him,

0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:07.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, there was a man who was going through

0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:10.600
<v Speaker 2>really hard time and then he got a knife and

0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:15.400
<v Speaker 2>mummy got away and she was fine. And then he said, yesterday,

0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:17.080
<v Speaker 2>are you doing that thing with the man who had

0:53:17.080 --> 0:53:21.640
<v Speaker 2>the hard time tomorrow? So you know, I do my

0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:23.120
<v Speaker 2>best to kind of give them what they need to

0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:25.399
<v Speaker 2>understand the world, but also in kid not.

0:53:25.360 --> 0:53:25.959
<v Speaker 1>Dump them innute.

0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:29.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I'm pretty honest with them about it. And

0:53:30.080 --> 0:53:33.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, I worry sometimes for the world. That is

0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:36.680
<v Speaker 2>obviously like all of us. But I choose the love

0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:39.279
<v Speaker 2>and not the fear. To me, that's the that's the

0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:42.080
<v Speaker 2>choice from an internal level.

0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:44.719
<v Speaker 1>You have so many hats. And the other hat that

0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:47.480
<v Speaker 1>we haven't brought in yet is that you're an educator. Yeah,

0:53:47.560 --> 0:53:50.919
<v Speaker 1>you've worked with a lot of teenage boys, and I'm

0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:56.200
<v Speaker 1>interested in your perspective on the next generations. Yeah, given

0:53:56.320 --> 0:53:58.680
<v Speaker 1>we are seeing these statistics around, we're seeing a lot

0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:04.240
<v Speaker 1>of this mannisphereund give us some hope. What's the next generation.

0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a good segue, love not fear, you know,

0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:12.600
<v Speaker 2>young men young boys. They are exposed to a lot

0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and they are also, I think, sometimes quite isolated.

0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:17.920
<v Speaker 1>I've noticed.

0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:20.120
<v Speaker 2>What I've noticed is that you know a lot of

0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:22.239
<v Speaker 2>people as a result of what we hear and as

0:54:22.239 --> 0:54:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a result of the society we live in. There's not

0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:28.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of intergenerational places. There's not a lot of places,

0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:31.000
<v Speaker 2>but we get to know people at different ages.

0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:33.600
<v Speaker 1>So I've you know, just casually.

0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Heard comments from like midlife women of I hate teenagers,

0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:43.879
<v Speaker 2>or you know, it's the parents fault, that sort of stuff. Yeah,

0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.319
<v Speaker 2>and I understand why, Like I don't blame them for

0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:51.640
<v Speaker 2>thinking that. But my approach to this is we need

0:54:51.640 --> 0:54:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to stay close no matter what. We need to stay close.

0:54:56.040 --> 0:54:58.160
<v Speaker 2>We need to stay close with our families, with our

0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:02.720
<v Speaker 2>extended families, Our young men and women. They are growing

0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:04.680
<v Speaker 2>up in a really crazy world that I think we

0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:09.279
<v Speaker 2>barely understand that we didn't grow up in right, and

0:55:09.440 --> 0:55:12.719
<v Speaker 2>we don't have to understand all of it to know

0:55:13.400 --> 0:55:18.120
<v Speaker 2>that connection between us and them is absolutely key. That said,

0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:23.440
<v Speaker 2>it is not safe for these men and boys to

0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:25.400
<v Speaker 2>be exposed to what they're exposed to. It is not

0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:27.839
<v Speaker 2>safe for a lot of young women. The statistics are

0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:30.560
<v Speaker 2>abominable and I'm not going to be a Pollyanna and

0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:34.439
<v Speaker 2>gloss over that it's abominable. And I hope that we're

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:36.160
<v Speaker 2>going to be intervening more and more in this. I

0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:40.560
<v Speaker 2>think there are interventions coming more and more. Social media

0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:43.560
<v Speaker 2>has a part to play, but I don't blame social media.

0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:47.239
<v Speaker 2>People use social media. I think we need to take

0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:50.319
<v Speaker 2>some responsibility for our disconnection with our young people, and

0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:53.160
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to step in. But in the moment,

0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I've had hairy moments with groups of young men,

0:55:56.640 --> 0:56:00.239
<v Speaker 2>as a lot of people surely have. And it's challenging

0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to be around a group of young boys in a

0:56:03.520 --> 0:56:08.520
<v Speaker 2>pack and they do gee each other up. It's in

0:56:08.560 --> 0:56:12.680
<v Speaker 2>their brains and nervous systems to do that at that age, right,

0:56:12.760 --> 0:56:15.080
<v Speaker 2>So we got to be careful how we handle that.

0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:18.400
<v Speaker 2>And it cannot be allowed and it must be addressed

0:56:18.440 --> 0:56:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and it must.

0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:20.120
<v Speaker 1>Be called out.

0:56:20.360 --> 0:56:24.279
<v Speaker 2>And I'm big on ethical bystanding, big on ethical bystanding

0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:28.160
<v Speaker 2>that we need to you know, one person getting surrounded

0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:29.680
<v Speaker 2>by a group, what do not walk past that?

0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:29.960
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:56:30.120 --> 0:56:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Stand with them, Yeah, talk to them, look at them,

0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:36.879
<v Speaker 2>just witness it. Power of witnessing is very underestimated.

0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:42.200
<v Speaker 1>I think if someone has been listening to this podcast.

0:56:43.200 --> 0:56:47.200
<v Speaker 1>What are you hoping that they take away from it?

0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:48.719
<v Speaker 1>If they were to take one thing.

0:56:49.560 --> 0:56:54.440
<v Speaker 2>That's a hard question and it's so personal, right, I

0:56:54.480 --> 0:56:57.160
<v Speaker 2>hope they feel less alone. I guess my intention in

0:56:57.200 --> 0:57:00.600
<v Speaker 2>telling this story. You know, stories are really important. Humans

0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:03.960
<v Speaker 2>have a collective journey through challenge. That's what it is

0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:08.600
<v Speaker 2>to be human. Life doesn't stop. Bad things happen, okay,

0:57:09.200 --> 0:57:12.640
<v Speaker 2>But when the bad things happen, when the horrible, unimaginably

0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:16.720
<v Speaker 2>bad things happen, it's really important that we know that

0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:21.840
<v Speaker 2>it changes that we move through and that there are

0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:26.440
<v Speaker 2>infinite ways to do that, and that if you can

0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:30.560
<v Speaker 2>and when you can find the right support, get to

0:57:30.640 --> 0:57:32.600
<v Speaker 2>the point where you can accept what's happened to you

0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:35.200
<v Speaker 2>and find the right support and reach out and not

0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:41.360
<v Speaker 2>be isolated and understand who you are through that, how

0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:44.720
<v Speaker 2>your identity has changed, what it's done for you. That

0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:47.320
<v Speaker 2>is where the magic is the magic and the transformation

0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:52.240
<v Speaker 2>doesn't come from anything else but within you. It's in

0:57:52.280 --> 0:57:55.080
<v Speaker 2>there already. That's what I kind of want people to know.

0:57:56.120 --> 0:58:01.360
<v Speaker 1>We've asked you to kind of go back and relive

0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:04.640
<v Speaker 1>in creating this podcast, in asking you to come on

0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:06.520
<v Speaker 1>what's that been like for you. It has been twenty

0:58:06.520 --> 0:58:09.080
<v Speaker 1>six years and we've asked you to kind of go

0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:11.640
<v Speaker 1>back into your memory. I'm not gonna lie, it's uncomfortable.

0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I felt really good about doing this, and I

0:58:16.640 --> 0:58:18.600
<v Speaker 2>do still feel really good about doing this. Actually, I

0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:21.240
<v Speaker 2>feel privileged to be able to to have the ability

0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:23.840
<v Speaker 2>to speak about it, to have the ability to tell

0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the story from the other side. I think that's kind

0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:31.760
<v Speaker 2>of remarkable. Wasn't ever able to speak publicly or openly

0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 2>for a really, really long time about anything, So it's

0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:40.080
<v Speaker 2>a skill and a privilege. But also I guess I

0:58:40.080 --> 0:58:43.880
<v Speaker 2>feel supported. I just feel like you guys have been

0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:47.480
<v Speaker 2>amazing as well. That it kind of gives me a

0:58:47.480 --> 0:58:51.200
<v Speaker 2>good feeling that these stories can be heard and can

0:58:51.240 --> 0:58:54.960
<v Speaker 2>be told in a way that is gentle and safe.

0:58:56.120 --> 0:58:59.600
<v Speaker 2>And I'm really grateful that I feel supported enough to

0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:03.040
<v Speaker 2>tell it, even by the man that did it. So

0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:07.200
<v Speaker 2>that's remarkable to me, and I don't discount that in

0:59:07.240 --> 0:59:09.840
<v Speaker 2>any way. So a lot of things go into it.

0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:12.640
<v Speaker 2>It's been pretty hairy to tell it, but I also

0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:15.560
<v Speaker 2>think that it's sufficiently important to experience that I brought

0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:17.360
<v Speaker 2>my courage, I bought my resilience.

0:59:17.360 --> 0:59:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Listeners are also going to hear Kui's side of the story. Yeah,

0:59:20.960 --> 0:59:24.200
<v Speaker 1>you have allowed us to do that. I felt a

0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:27.640
<v Speaker 1>bit of trepidation asking you that I felt because of

0:59:27.680 --> 0:59:30.760
<v Speaker 1>the conversation we'd had and how you'd spoken about him,

0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:34.160
<v Speaker 1>I felt comfortable asking you. And your response to me

0:59:34.360 --> 0:59:38.240
<v Speaker 1>was that's a great idea. And I thought, what a

0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:43.320
<v Speaker 1>unique kind of situation. What do you hope people get

0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:46.760
<v Speaker 1>from hearing his side? Because often in these scenarios, we

0:59:46.880 --> 0:59:50.080
<v Speaker 1>don't hear them. Man, we don't hear the apology, We

0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:54.000
<v Speaker 1>don't hearing that the kind of journey from their side.

0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I have to get whatever they need. I mean, I

0:59:56.040 --> 0:59:58.160
<v Speaker 2>don't know what that is, and I don't know what

0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:01.040
<v Speaker 2>he'll say. I have an idea what he'll say.

1:00:01.160 --> 1:00:02.200
<v Speaker 1>What are you hoping he says?

1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Actually, I'm not invested in what he says. Funnily enough,

1:00:08.120 --> 1:00:11.120
<v Speaker 2>I hope he can tell his truth. I think the

1:00:11.160 --> 1:00:13.840
<v Speaker 2>world needs more truth. I think we need to be

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<v Speaker 2>more able to tell our stories. Stories are something that

1:00:17.440 --> 1:00:20.240
<v Speaker 2>humans carry and have a lot of power, and they

1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:23.160
<v Speaker 2>help us connect with each other and understand what we

1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:25.640
<v Speaker 2>have in common. And I don't think there's enough of

1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:28.640
<v Speaker 2>that in the world, So stories for me are connective

1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:30.080
<v Speaker 2>and I believe in that.

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<v Speaker 1>I really believe in that. Thank you to Elena for

1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:35.840
<v Speaker 1>joining us on this episode. You can find links to

1:00:35.880 --> 1:00:38.880
<v Speaker 1>her work in our show notes. This is part one

1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.080
<v Speaker 1>of this episode. Part two is my interview with Kai,

1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:45.200
<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator in this case. You can find a link

1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:47.640
<v Speaker 1>to that in our show notes. I'll see you over there.