1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,174 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:19,134 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,094 --> 00:00:22,294 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:22,414 --> 00:00:25,414 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast, 6 00:00:25,454 --> 00:00:29,894 Speaker 1: The Quikie. A recent concerning development in Afghanistan has seen 7 00:00:29,894 --> 00:00:32,894 Speaker 1: the country's Taliban rulers issue a new set of laws 8 00:00:33,094 --> 00:00:36,374 Speaker 1: that further restrict the rights and freedoms of women. The 9 00:00:36,414 --> 00:00:39,734 Speaker 1: one hundred and fourteen page Vice and Virtue laws introduced 10 00:00:39,854 --> 00:00:44,054 Speaker 1: last week have drawn widespread condemnation from the international community 11 00:00:44,134 --> 00:00:48,174 Speaker 1: and human rights organizations. But what if anything, can be 12 00:00:48,214 --> 00:00:51,814 Speaker 1: done to help the women whose faces, voices, and even 13 00:00:51,894 --> 00:00:55,734 Speaker 1: line of sight are now being policed. Before we discuss 14 00:00:55,774 --> 00:00:58,254 Speaker 1: what's next for the women of Afghanistan, here's the letters 15 00:00:58,334 --> 00:01:01,534 Speaker 1: from the Quokie newsroom. Friday, August thirty. Ozzies are being 16 00:01:01,534 --> 00:01:04,254 Speaker 1: told to expect a warmer than average spring following a 17 00:01:04,294 --> 00:01:07,814 Speaker 1: warmer than average winter. The Bureau of Meteorologies predicting a 18 00:01:07,854 --> 00:01:11,494 Speaker 1: warmer three months ahead than usual cross all states and territories, 19 00:01:11,734 --> 00:01:15,014 Speaker 1: with Queensland, New South Wales, Tasmania, South Australia and the 20 00:01:15,054 --> 00:01:20,094 Speaker 1: Australian Capital Territory also expecting above average rainfall. Winter has 21 00:01:20,174 --> 00:01:22,974 Speaker 1: been on average one point five degrees above the nineteen 22 00:01:23,054 --> 00:01:26,334 Speaker 1: sixty one to ninety winter average, with August on track 23 00:01:26,374 --> 00:01:30,214 Speaker 1: to be the warmest on record. International affairs for Ossie's 24 00:01:30,214 --> 00:01:32,774 Speaker 1: are finally starting to come down after several years of 25 00:01:32,814 --> 00:01:36,054 Speaker 1: expensive flights to leave the country. In the first six 26 00:01:36,094 --> 00:01:38,614 Speaker 1: months of twenty twenty four, the price of an economy 27 00:01:38,654 --> 00:01:41,974 Speaker 1: fair from Australia fell thirteen percent, and in July they 28 00:01:41,974 --> 00:01:44,894 Speaker 1: were five percent cheaper than the year before. That price 29 00:01:44,974 --> 00:01:48,534 Speaker 1: job has stimulated demands, with international ticket sales up ten 30 00:01:48,614 --> 00:01:50,814 Speaker 1: percent in the first six months of the year and 31 00:01:50,974 --> 00:01:54,134 Speaker 1: up eighteen percent in July year on year. The prediction 32 00:01:54,374 --> 00:01:57,174 Speaker 1: is that the drops will continue into twenty twenty five. 33 00:01:57,694 --> 00:02:00,934 Speaker 1: The Israeli military and Hamas have agreed to three pauses 34 00:02:00,974 --> 00:02:03,694 Speaker 1: in fighting in Gaza so that six hundred and forty 35 00:02:03,774 --> 00:02:08,094 Speaker 1: thousand children can be vaccinated against polio. The vaccination campaign 36 00:02:08,094 --> 00:02:11,654 Speaker 1: will begin on Sunday, taking place between six am and 37 00:02:11,774 --> 00:02:15,214 Speaker 1: three pm, the first in central Gaza before moving south, 38 00:02:15,254 --> 00:02:17,094 Speaker 1: and then a third in the north of the enclave, 39 00:02:17,374 --> 00:02:19,974 Speaker 1: with an understanding that a fourth will occur if needed. 40 00:02:20,334 --> 00:02:23,934 Speaker 1: This is not a ceasefire agreement. The World Health Organization 41 00:02:24,054 --> 00:02:26,614 Speaker 1: has reported that at least one baby in Gaza has 42 00:02:26,654 --> 00:02:30,654 Speaker 1: been paralyzed after contracting the poliovirus, the first case in 43 00:02:30,694 --> 00:02:33,694 Speaker 1: the territory in twenty five years. The ten month old 44 00:02:33,734 --> 00:02:35,614 Speaker 1: boy losing the use of the lower part of a 45 00:02:35,694 --> 00:02:40,294 Speaker 1: leg after fighting disrupted his vaccination schedule. Singer Lana del 46 00:02:40,374 --> 00:02:42,934 Speaker 1: Rey has got the Internet talking after she was spotted 47 00:02:42,934 --> 00:02:45,094 Speaker 1: walking hand in hand with a mystery man at a 48 00:02:45,134 --> 00:02:48,374 Speaker 1: festival in the UK on the weekend. Sleuths have uncovered 49 00:02:48,414 --> 00:02:52,374 Speaker 1: the man's identity, revealing Delray seems to be dating Louisiana 50 00:02:52,414 --> 00:02:55,614 Speaker 1: based Alligated tour guide Jeremy de Frene, who she was 51 00:02:55,694 --> 00:02:58,694 Speaker 1: later seen shopping with at Harold's in London. A scrollback 52 00:02:58,734 --> 00:03:01,094 Speaker 1: through her social media post showed she may have met 53 00:03:01,094 --> 00:03:03,814 Speaker 1: Defrien back in twenty nineteen, when she took one of 54 00:03:03,854 --> 00:03:06,574 Speaker 1: his airboat swamp tours while in the States to perform 55 00:03:06,614 --> 00:03:10,094 Speaker 1: at a local Louisiana festival. Fans are going wild over 56 00:03:10,134 --> 00:03:13,494 Speaker 1: the seemingly mismatched pair, defreeing a forty nine year old 57 00:03:13,534 --> 00:03:16,334 Speaker 1: father of two, a big change from del Rey's x's, 58 00:03:16,374 --> 00:03:21,734 Speaker 1: who are mostly fellow musicians. The Pulse on Paris, Day 59 00:03:21,774 --> 00:03:25,214 Speaker 1: one of the Paris Paralympics and Australia already has four 60 00:03:25,254 --> 00:03:28,814 Speaker 1: medals on the tally. Thomas Gallagher won Australia's first gold 61 00:03:28,854 --> 00:03:31,214 Speaker 1: of the Games, claiming the men's s ten fifty meter 62 00:03:31,294 --> 00:03:33,694 Speaker 1: free style in the pool. The bronze in that final 63 00:03:33,814 --> 00:03:38,054 Speaker 1: also went to defending champion Australian Rowan Cruthers. Flagbearer Brendan 64 00:03:38,094 --> 00:03:40,534 Speaker 1: Hole scored bronze and the men's s nine four hundred 65 00:03:40,574 --> 00:03:43,774 Speaker 1: meter free style, while Lakeisha Pattison took silver in the 66 00:03:43,774 --> 00:03:47,014 Speaker 1: women's s nine four hundred meter free. The Aussie wheelchair 67 00:03:47,094 --> 00:03:50,174 Speaker 1: rugby team, the Steelers, took on defending champions Great Britain, 68 00:03:50,254 --> 00:03:53,134 Speaker 1: but were beaten by just three points, going down fifty 69 00:03:53,134 --> 00:03:56,494 Speaker 1: eight to fifty five. And Danny detro Our, eight time 70 00:03:56,534 --> 00:03:59,374 Speaker 1: Paralympic veteran, who was on the show earlier this week, 71 00:03:59,614 --> 00:04:02,214 Speaker 1: has lost her round of thirty two mixed doubles XD 72 00:04:02,414 --> 00:04:05,174 Speaker 1: seven match. She and partner Jesse Chen beaten by the 73 00:04:05,174 --> 00:04:08,294 Speaker 1: team from Great Britain. That's what's happening in the world today. Next, 74 00:04:08,414 --> 00:04:12,454 Speaker 1: new laws are further restricting women in Afghanistan. What purpose 75 00:04:12,534 --> 00:04:15,054 Speaker 1: do they serve and what impact will this have on 76 00:04:15,134 --> 00:04:29,974 Speaker 1: the generations of women to follow. Last week, the Taliban 77 00:04:30,014 --> 00:04:33,454 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan issued a new decree, the New Vice and 78 00:04:33,534 --> 00:04:37,414 Speaker 1: Virtue Laws, thirty five articles outlining the rules around how 79 00:04:37,454 --> 00:04:41,334 Speaker 1: the people of Afghanistan should conduct themselves. Of the thirty 80 00:04:41,374 --> 00:04:45,254 Speaker 1: five articles, thirteen pertained to the conduct of women, including 81 00:04:45,254 --> 00:04:47,974 Speaker 1: a ban on women's voices and bare faces in any 82 00:04:48,054 --> 00:04:52,494 Speaker 1: public setting, effectively silencing and erasing women from public life. 83 00:04:53,694 --> 00:04:57,014 Speaker 1: Afghan women are now required to conceal their entire bodies, 84 00:04:57,054 --> 00:05:00,534 Speaker 1: including their faces, when outside their homes. The laws state 85 00:05:00,614 --> 00:05:03,094 Speaker 1: that she needs to remain covered so as to avoid 86 00:05:03,134 --> 00:05:07,334 Speaker 1: temptation and tempting others. Her clothing cannot be thin, tight, 87 00:05:07,654 --> 00:05:11,854 Speaker 1: or short. Women also cannot be uncovered in the presence 88 00:05:11,894 --> 00:05:15,014 Speaker 1: of anyone who's not Muslim, whether male or female, even 89 00:05:15,054 --> 00:05:18,894 Speaker 1: if they're inside their own homes. The laws deem even 90 00:05:18,974 --> 00:05:21,734 Speaker 1: the sound of a female voice in public to be 91 00:05:21,814 --> 00:05:25,894 Speaker 1: a moral violation. It claims hearing her voice is considered 92 00:05:26,094 --> 00:05:30,454 Speaker 1: too intimate, so she cannot be heard speaking, reciting poetry, singing, 93 00:05:30,654 --> 00:05:34,574 Speaker 1: or reading anything out loud. Afghan women can no longer 94 00:05:34,574 --> 00:05:36,974 Speaker 1: write in a cast solo. The mixing of men and 95 00:05:37,014 --> 00:05:39,614 Speaker 1: women who are not related to each other is also barred, 96 00:05:39,934 --> 00:05:42,734 Speaker 1: and women can be punished for even looking at a 97 00:05:42,774 --> 00:05:48,334 Speaker 1: man who's not her direct relative. While these restrictions do 98 00:05:48,454 --> 00:05:52,014 Speaker 1: impact women severely, there are new conditions for men too, 99 00:05:52,054 --> 00:05:55,774 Speaker 1: mandating they grow beards. Drivers are prohibited from playing music, 100 00:05:56,094 --> 00:05:59,254 Speaker 1: and media are no longer allowed to publish images of 101 00:05:59,414 --> 00:06:03,694 Speaker 1: living people, threatening what's already a very fragile media landscape 102 00:06:03,694 --> 00:06:07,854 Speaker 1: in the country. Anyone caught not respecting these new laws 103 00:06:07,974 --> 00:06:11,254 Speaker 1: face the Taliban's Ministry the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention 104 00:06:11,294 --> 00:06:14,934 Speaker 1: of Vice agents who've been granted broad powers to detain 105 00:06:15,014 --> 00:06:19,574 Speaker 1: individuals and impose punishments for perceived violation, including the seizing 106 00:06:19,574 --> 00:06:22,814 Speaker 1: of their property. The United Nations has been quick to 107 00:06:22,854 --> 00:06:26,374 Speaker 1: condemn these new laws. Rosa otten Beieva, who heads the 108 00:06:26,494 --> 00:06:30,614 Speaker 1: UN mission in Afghanistan, described them as providing a distressing 109 00:06:30,734 --> 00:06:33,974 Speaker 1: vision for the country's future. She emphasized that these laws 110 00:06:34,174 --> 00:06:37,974 Speaker 1: exacerbate the already intolerable restrictions on the rights of women 111 00:06:37,974 --> 00:06:42,094 Speaker 1: and girls in Afghanistan. Ravena sham Designi, the chief spokesperson 112 00:06:42,134 --> 00:06:45,094 Speaker 1: for the UN Human Rights Office, went further, saying these 113 00:06:45,174 --> 00:06:49,134 Speaker 1: laws completely erase women's presence in public. She urged the 114 00:06:49,174 --> 00:06:52,934 Speaker 1: Taliban to immediately repeal the legislation, which she says is 115 00:06:52,974 --> 00:06:59,894 Speaker 1: in clear violation of Afghanistan's obligations under international human rights laws. 116 00:07:00,654 --> 00:07:03,654 Speaker 1: These new restrictions come on top of existing bands that 117 00:07:03,694 --> 00:07:07,334 Speaker 1: have already severely limited women's rights in Afghanistan since the 118 00:07:07,414 --> 00:07:10,574 Speaker 1: Taliban regained power in twenty twenty one. Bands that have 119 00:07:10,614 --> 00:07:13,814 Speaker 1: barred girls from education beyond the sixth grade, banned women 120 00:07:13,854 --> 00:07:17,774 Speaker 1: from most forms of employment, excluded women from public spaces, 121 00:07:17,814 --> 00:07:22,454 Speaker 1: and enforced strict dress codes and male guardianship requirements. The 122 00:07:22,454 --> 00:07:25,974 Speaker 1: Taliban have remained defiant in the face of international condemnation. 123 00:07:26,574 --> 00:07:31,014 Speaker 1: Zabahula Mujahid, the main spokesman for the Taliban government, rejected 124 00:07:31,054 --> 00:07:35,054 Speaker 1: concerns raised by the UN, saying arrogance from those unfamiliar 125 00:07:35,054 --> 00:07:38,494 Speaker 1: with Islamic Sharia law, particularly from non Muslims who might 126 00:07:38,494 --> 00:07:44,734 Speaker 1: express reservations or objections, these new laws raise serious concerns 127 00:07:44,734 --> 00:07:48,134 Speaker 1: about the future of Afghanistan and its people. The UN 128 00:07:48,294 --> 00:07:51,574 Speaker 1: has previously stated that official recognition of the Taliban as 129 00:07:51,614 --> 00:07:55,654 Speaker 1: the legitimate rulers of Afghanistan is nearly impossible while these 130 00:07:55,694 --> 00:07:59,054 Speaker 1: restrictions on women and girls persist. So how does the 131 00:07:59,054 --> 00:08:03,414 Speaker 1: world respond aside from public condemnation when no country formally 132 00:08:03,454 --> 00:08:09,054 Speaker 1: recognizes the Taliban government. Doctor Rachel Woodlock is a lectra 133 00:08:09,094 --> 00:08:11,934 Speaker 1: in islam Studies at the University of Melbourne and the 134 00:08:11,974 --> 00:08:16,654 Speaker 1: acting Deputy Director National Center for Contemporary Islamic Studies. Doctor Woodlock, 135 00:08:16,774 --> 00:08:19,454 Speaker 1: it feels like we're watching the orator of women from 136 00:08:19,494 --> 00:08:22,694 Speaker 1: Afghan society. What purpose does that serve the Taliban? 137 00:08:23,054 --> 00:08:25,294 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very concerning. 138 00:08:25,774 --> 00:08:30,134 Speaker 3: So the Taliban use their I suppose it'd almost a 139 00:08:30,174 --> 00:08:35,534 Speaker 3: singular obsession with enforcing virtue and vice laws, particularly those 140 00:08:35,574 --> 00:08:39,854 Speaker 3: targeting women, for a number of different reasons. They do 141 00:08:39,934 --> 00:08:42,574 Speaker 3: it because, first of all, it gives them what you know, 142 00:08:42,614 --> 00:08:46,894 Speaker 3: we could call street cred. They are claiming to implement 143 00:08:46,974 --> 00:08:52,014 Speaker 3: a very strict interpretation, very peculiar interpretation of Islamic religious 144 00:08:52,094 --> 00:08:55,534 Speaker 3: law shadia, and they do it through the lens of 145 00:08:55,694 --> 00:08:59,334 Speaker 3: a certain code of living called the Pashton wally. It's 146 00:08:59,374 --> 00:09:04,094 Speaker 3: a Pashtun code of honor. And they move into an 147 00:09:04,174 --> 00:09:09,014 Speaker 3: environment and where there's a lot of conflict, cha social instability, 148 00:09:09,534 --> 00:09:12,854 Speaker 3: and one of the appeals of the Taliban has been 149 00:09:13,334 --> 00:09:16,854 Speaker 3: that they are able to somehow effectively control this very 150 00:09:16,974 --> 00:09:21,974 Speaker 3: chaotic environment and by cracking down hard on virtual and 151 00:09:22,054 --> 00:09:25,494 Speaker 3: vice laws, they're able to signal first of all, that 152 00:09:25,534 --> 00:09:28,134 Speaker 3: they have some ability to govern what seems to be 153 00:09:28,214 --> 00:09:32,174 Speaker 3: a very ungovernable environment. But it also gives them the 154 00:09:32,214 --> 00:09:35,094 Speaker 3: ability to crack down on their opposition. It has a 155 00:09:35,214 --> 00:09:39,134 Speaker 3: number of purposes. It's very much bound up with a 156 00:09:39,174 --> 00:09:43,134 Speaker 3: society in which honor is a key feature of the 157 00:09:43,294 --> 00:09:48,534 Speaker 3: Pashtune culture, and enforcing honor in the control of women 158 00:09:49,134 --> 00:09:51,334 Speaker 3: is how they signal that they're able to do this. 159 00:09:52,214 --> 00:09:55,534 Speaker 1: You mentioned there that it's an unusual interpretation of Islamic law. 160 00:09:55,854 --> 00:09:59,734 Speaker 1: I'm interested to know what people from that faith around 161 00:09:59,774 --> 00:10:02,614 Speaker 1: the world see when they look in on this, because 162 00:10:02,614 --> 00:10:05,454 Speaker 1: obviously it's making headlines around the world and it's casting 163 00:10:05,454 --> 00:10:09,174 Speaker 1: dispersions again on the Islamic faith. How do people around 164 00:10:09,174 --> 00:10:13,174 Speaker 1: the world feel about this when they see cracking down 165 00:10:13,214 --> 00:10:14,814 Speaker 1: on women in Afghanistan. 166 00:10:15,334 --> 00:10:18,534 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, obviously, the Muslim world is massive in 167 00:10:18,574 --> 00:10:22,734 Speaker 3: scope and in cultural diversity and in religious diversity. So 168 00:10:23,174 --> 00:10:25,574 Speaker 3: for a lot of Muslims, this is such an alien 169 00:10:26,134 --> 00:10:29,454 Speaker 3: expression of Islam. It's not something that they would be 170 00:10:29,574 --> 00:10:31,694 Speaker 3: familiar in their lives in societies. I mean, if you 171 00:10:31,694 --> 00:10:35,094 Speaker 3: look at how Muslims in Malaysia live, how Muslims in 172 00:10:35,934 --> 00:10:40,534 Speaker 3: Albania live, Muslims in Australia live. It's almost unfathomable the 173 00:10:40,774 --> 00:10:44,894 Speaker 3: interpretation of the religion that the Taliban offer. To give 174 00:10:44,894 --> 00:10:48,454 Speaker 3: you an example, we look at Christianity, and if we 175 00:10:48,534 --> 00:10:51,774 Speaker 3: look at the way the Puritans in America understood Christianity, 176 00:10:52,414 --> 00:10:55,294 Speaker 3: you think this is another universe. But they did it 177 00:10:55,374 --> 00:10:59,694 Speaker 3: by justifying certain interpretations of the Bible and certain interpretations 178 00:10:59,734 --> 00:11:02,334 Speaker 3: of again their framework for Christianity. 179 00:11:02,414 --> 00:11:03,694 Speaker 2: So they weren't from Mars. 180 00:11:03,894 --> 00:11:07,414 Speaker 3: They drew their inspiration from Christianity. It's just that their 181 00:11:07,454 --> 00:11:11,294 Speaker 3: peculiar puritanical visionists. It's no different to the way that 182 00:11:11,534 --> 00:11:14,334 Speaker 3: many other Christians around the world understand Christianity. And it's 183 00:11:14,334 --> 00:11:17,134 Speaker 3: the same for Muslims. You know, yes, they talk about 184 00:11:17,134 --> 00:11:21,614 Speaker 3: things like modesty for example, So Islam generally, the way 185 00:11:21,614 --> 00:11:25,174 Speaker 3: that Muslims understand gender relations is more of an emphasis 186 00:11:25,174 --> 00:11:27,574 Speaker 3: on modesty rules for both men and women than you 187 00:11:27,614 --> 00:11:31,014 Speaker 3: will get in perhaps some other religious laws. For example, 188 00:11:31,254 --> 00:11:33,934 Speaker 3: you know, religiously observant Muslim men and women may not 189 00:11:33,974 --> 00:11:38,014 Speaker 3: shake hands, or they may for example, cover their bodies 190 00:11:38,054 --> 00:11:40,894 Speaker 3: with more clothing than would be considered you know, modest 191 00:11:40,894 --> 00:11:44,574 Speaker 3: stress in Australia. But for the Talibahan and for Pashtun culture, 192 00:11:44,934 --> 00:11:47,734 Speaker 3: the honor code is and the interpretation of Islam is 193 00:11:47,774 --> 00:11:52,654 Speaker 3: one that almost removes women from the public environment, removes 194 00:11:52,694 --> 00:11:55,574 Speaker 3: women from any access to power and autonomy. Is very 195 00:11:55,614 --> 00:11:59,574 Speaker 3: strongly patriarchal interpretation of the religion, and they justify it 196 00:11:59,734 --> 00:12:04,734 Speaker 3: through reference to their peculiar interpretation and the practice of 197 00:12:04,734 --> 00:12:07,134 Speaker 3: pro from Muhammad. But for a lot of Muslims, it's 198 00:12:07,214 --> 00:12:09,254 Speaker 3: not an Islam that they recognize. 199 00:12:09,774 --> 00:12:13,894 Speaker 1: Rachel does international condemnation do anything in a situation like this, 200 00:12:14,054 --> 00:12:17,294 Speaker 1: I mean, a Taliban spokesperson basically said, anyone who doesn't 201 00:12:17,374 --> 00:12:20,814 Speaker 1: understand it is just arrogant. Does calls from say the 202 00:12:20,974 --> 00:12:24,974 Speaker 1: UN or other world leaders have any impact on how 203 00:12:24,974 --> 00:12:27,094 Speaker 1: the Taliban does its business. 204 00:12:27,214 --> 00:12:28,854 Speaker 2: Well, yes and no. 205 00:12:29,614 --> 00:12:31,854 Speaker 3: Part of the reason they do this is a way 206 00:12:31,894 --> 00:12:36,814 Speaker 3: of signaling resistance to westernization. So this is a way 207 00:12:36,854 --> 00:12:40,174 Speaker 3: of them saying, you know, we don't want Western meddling 208 00:12:40,494 --> 00:12:43,414 Speaker 3: in our culture and in our lives and in our society. 209 00:12:43,614 --> 00:12:46,854 Speaker 3: So the more that the West says this is abominable, 210 00:12:46,934 --> 00:12:49,894 Speaker 3: you know what you're doing to women. Women should have education, 211 00:12:50,014 --> 00:12:52,534 Speaker 3: women should have freedom, women should have human rights. 212 00:12:52,814 --> 00:12:54,134 Speaker 2: They turn around and say, well, these. 213 00:12:54,014 --> 00:12:56,614 Speaker 3: Are alien to our culture, these are foreign concepts. This 214 00:12:56,734 --> 00:12:59,774 Speaker 3: is not us, and so when Westerners jump up and 215 00:12:59,814 --> 00:13:02,934 Speaker 3: down even more, it's like banging an empty drum. On 216 00:13:02,974 --> 00:13:07,214 Speaker 3: the other hand, they are sensitive to the economic and 217 00:13:07,294 --> 00:13:11,694 Speaker 3: geopolitical factors that the real politic of running a state, 218 00:13:12,094 --> 00:13:15,854 Speaker 3: and so you know, they have to try and negotiate 219 00:13:15,934 --> 00:13:19,374 Speaker 3: with other partners in terms of gaining access to aid, 220 00:13:19,734 --> 00:13:25,054 Speaker 3: positioning themselves in the region, to negotiate in international relations. 221 00:13:25,494 --> 00:13:28,854 Speaker 3: So at a non public level, there may be some 222 00:13:28,974 --> 00:13:32,934 Speaker 3: scope for some wiggle room to respond to generally non 223 00:13:32,934 --> 00:13:37,054 Speaker 3: Western negotiating partners, but at the moment particularly, there's very 224 00:13:37,094 --> 00:13:39,614 Speaker 3: little that our condemnation really will achieve. 225 00:13:40,854 --> 00:13:44,894 Speaker 1: What societal impact does this have on not just the 226 00:13:44,894 --> 00:13:48,054 Speaker 1: women of Afghanistan, but the culture of Afghanistan sort of 227 00:13:48,054 --> 00:13:50,654 Speaker 1: across the board, because if you remove women from every 228 00:13:50,694 --> 00:13:53,934 Speaker 1: conversation and it's only men in the room, it's got 229 00:13:53,974 --> 00:13:57,614 Speaker 1: to change how that community then evolves and moves forward, 230 00:13:57,654 --> 00:14:00,054 Speaker 1: and the generations that are going to come behind the 231 00:14:00,054 --> 00:14:02,374 Speaker 1: women who are suffering this now are going to know 232 00:14:02,494 --> 00:14:05,614 Speaker 1: no other way. What impact does this have culturally on 233 00:14:06,094 --> 00:14:07,894 Speaker 1: the women and the men of Afghanistan. 234 00:14:08,574 --> 00:14:10,414 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty draconian. 235 00:14:10,894 --> 00:14:13,894 Speaker 3: You also have to remember, though, that the Taliban do 236 00:14:14,094 --> 00:14:19,414 Speaker 3: come from predominantly the Pashtun society, and so these very 237 00:14:19,694 --> 00:14:23,934 Speaker 3: deeply conservative values they predate the Taliban. Then this didn't 238 00:14:23,974 --> 00:14:27,054 Speaker 3: just arise out of nowhere. The problem is is that 239 00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:31,454 Speaker 3: the pre Taliban world, whether it was before the two 240 00:14:31,494 --> 00:14:35,534 Speaker 3: thousands or now before twenty twenty one, there was negotiating 241 00:14:35,614 --> 00:14:39,294 Speaker 3: room for cultures to work out their own unique way 242 00:14:39,294 --> 00:14:42,214 Speaker 3: of understanding things like gender relations and the space for 243 00:14:42,294 --> 00:14:42,974 Speaker 3: women to move. 244 00:14:43,374 --> 00:14:44,094 Speaker 2: Now this varied. 245 00:14:44,134 --> 00:14:47,734 Speaker 3: If you've got women who are in urban areas highly educated, 246 00:14:48,094 --> 00:14:51,774 Speaker 3: you know, theoretically could run for president, there was more 247 00:14:51,774 --> 00:14:56,134 Speaker 3: scope and more access in rural areas. Perhaps there probably 248 00:14:56,174 --> 00:14:58,414 Speaker 3: is not a great deal of change in terms of 249 00:14:58,454 --> 00:15:01,534 Speaker 3: the culture of what women can do and what that 250 00:15:01,734 --> 00:15:07,494 Speaker 3: means for future Afghan women. However, by legislating the exclusion 251 00:15:07,534 --> 00:15:12,374 Speaker 3: of women from education, from governance, from political power, having 252 00:15:12,414 --> 00:15:16,894 Speaker 3: access to health care, having women offering health care, even 253 00:15:16,934 --> 00:15:19,614 Speaker 3: just being able to move around in society, I mean 254 00:15:19,654 --> 00:15:22,014 Speaker 3: the UN has looked at the impact of this, since 255 00:15:22,094 --> 00:15:26,334 Speaker 3: they estimate that it will increase early childbearing, for example, 256 00:15:26,574 --> 00:15:29,854 Speaker 3: by whopping forty five percent. You know, over the next 257 00:15:29,894 --> 00:15:34,214 Speaker 3: couple of years, even it will increase maternal mortality. It 258 00:15:34,254 --> 00:15:38,414 Speaker 3: will decrease women's educational capacity, which of course has knock 259 00:15:38,414 --> 00:15:38,894 Speaker 3: on effects. 260 00:15:38,974 --> 00:15:40,014 Speaker 2: If you've got women are. 261 00:15:39,894 --> 00:15:44,454 Speaker 3: The primary caregivers, they're the first educators of the next generation. 262 00:15:44,974 --> 00:15:46,854 Speaker 3: You know, the knock on effects of really going to 263 00:15:46,974 --> 00:15:52,134 Speaker 3: erode the social functioning of Afghan society into the future. 264 00:15:52,334 --> 00:15:53,334 Speaker 2: It's quite depressing. 265 00:15:54,134 --> 00:15:57,534 Speaker 1: Just finally, Rachel, we feel very powerless as women who 266 00:15:57,574 --> 00:16:00,254 Speaker 1: have power in the cultures that we exist in to 267 00:16:00,294 --> 00:16:03,054 Speaker 1: do anything to help. Is there anything that women outside 268 00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:04,414 Speaker 1: of Afghanistan can actually do? 269 00:16:05,174 --> 00:16:08,454 Speaker 3: You know, we've all got the responsibility to try and 270 00:16:08,494 --> 00:16:11,134 Speaker 3: affect change as much as we possibly can. And for 271 00:16:11,174 --> 00:16:13,694 Speaker 3: you and me, I can't do anything about the Tali Bahn, 272 00:16:14,054 --> 00:16:16,134 Speaker 3: but we can do things like you know, where the 273 00:16:16,254 --> 00:16:18,814 Speaker 3: UN has been able to set up or support say 274 00:16:18,894 --> 00:16:22,374 Speaker 3: small businesses that women are selling, say for example, they 275 00:16:22,494 --> 00:16:25,294 Speaker 3: create materials and goods that we can perhaps buy in 276 00:16:25,334 --> 00:16:29,374 Speaker 3: small market opportunities. Why not we can you know, donate 277 00:16:29,454 --> 00:16:32,974 Speaker 3: to aid agencies that are able to operate in Afghanistan 278 00:16:33,014 --> 00:16:36,574 Speaker 3: offering aid to women. We can definitely talk about it 279 00:16:36,614 --> 00:16:40,734 Speaker 3: and resist the idea that this is islamac talk to 280 00:16:40,774 --> 00:16:44,334 Speaker 3: Afghan women. I've got Afghan female students that work at 281 00:16:44,414 --> 00:16:46,974 Speaker 3: university here, and I should also say too that this 282 00:16:47,134 --> 00:16:50,014 Speaker 3: is often sectarian as well. There's a lot of sheer 283 00:16:50,054 --> 00:16:53,814 Speaker 3: Afghan women that have a double burden of oppression because 284 00:16:53,814 --> 00:16:56,254 Speaker 3: not only they are pressed for being women, they are 285 00:16:56,294 --> 00:17:01,174 Speaker 3: oppressed for being a sheer Hazar, a minority, and so they. 286 00:17:01,094 --> 00:17:02,814 Speaker 2: Don't want this vision of Islam. 287 00:17:03,094 --> 00:17:05,974 Speaker 3: You know, the culture and history of Afghanistan is rich 288 00:17:06,014 --> 00:17:09,894 Speaker 3: and varied and amazing and beautiful, and we forget that 289 00:17:09,974 --> 00:17:11,014 Speaker 3: when we only. 290 00:17:10,694 --> 00:17:12,774 Speaker 2: Focus on this experience of Afghanistan. 291 00:17:13,014 --> 00:17:15,974 Speaker 3: So we don't want to strip the Afghan experience of 292 00:17:16,014 --> 00:17:19,014 Speaker 3: this rich diversity, because that's a narrative against which the 293 00:17:19,054 --> 00:17:21,614 Speaker 3: Taliban has to operate as well. So we need to 294 00:17:21,614 --> 00:17:24,054 Speaker 3: hear those voices and that history of Afghanistan. 295 00:17:28,054 --> 00:17:31,654 Speaker 1: As Afghanistan grapples with decades of conflict and a severe 296 00:17:31,734 --> 00:17:36,334 Speaker 1: humanitarian crisis, these new laws represent a significant setback for 297 00:17:36,454 --> 00:17:40,534 Speaker 1: human rights and gender equality, as un Envoy Rosa otten 298 00:17:40,574 --> 00:17:44,134 Speaker 1: Beevre poignantly stated, after decades of war and in the 299 00:17:44,134 --> 00:17:48,174 Speaker 1: midst of a terrible humanitarian crisis, the Afghan people deserve 300 00:17:48,294 --> 00:17:51,334 Speaker 1: much better than being threatened or jailed if they happen 301 00:17:51,414 --> 00:17:53,654 Speaker 1: to be late for prayers, glance at a member of 302 00:17:53,694 --> 00:17:56,374 Speaker 1: the opposite sex who's not a family member, or possess 303 00:17:56,374 --> 00:17:58,934 Speaker 1: a photo of a loved one. While the voices of 304 00:17:58,974 --> 00:18:02,214 Speaker 1: Afghanistan's women are silenced. We bring you to Mina, an 305 00:18:02,214 --> 00:18:04,734 Speaker 1: Afghan woman whose story was shared on the un Women 306 00:18:04,814 --> 00:18:08,094 Speaker 1: Instagram account. She explains how her life changed in twenty 307 00:18:08,134 --> 00:18:10,654 Speaker 1: twenty one when the Taliban came back into power. That 308 00:18:10,774 --> 00:18:13,494 Speaker 1: says she knows why they do what they do. 309 00:18:13,774 --> 00:18:20,214 Speaker 3: Shandi and Amathan Julushanda beginning in Ovohushan in our riset Aim. 310 00:18:21,054 --> 00:18:24,174 Speaker 1: She says, they, as in the Taliban, know that if 311 00:18:24,214 --> 00:18:30,214 Speaker 1: women are educated. She says, we would become unstoppable. Thanks 312 00:18:30,214 --> 00:18:32,294 Speaker 1: for taking some time to feed your mind with us today. 313 00:18:32,334 --> 00:18:35,014 Speaker 1: The Quikie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our 314 00:18:35,054 --> 00:18:38,494 Speaker 1: senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Tom Lyin.