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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm Taylor Strano. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Quickie. In the ah wur work has become far

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Speaker 2: more flexible, with people chopping and changing jobs like never before.

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Speaker 2: We can expect to move in and out of roles

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Speaker 2: with ease. But what happens if you get fired? Is

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Speaker 2: there a way to nail getting the flick before we

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Speaker 2: clean out our desk and hand back the security pass.

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Speaker 2: Here's Grace Rufrey with the latest from the Quickie newsroom

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Speaker 2: for Friday, October eleven.

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Speaker 3: Raphael Nadal has announced he's retiring from professional tennis at

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Speaker 3: thirty eight, after winning twenty two Grand Slam titles during

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Speaker 3: an unprecedented era he shared with rivals Roger Federer and

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Speaker 3: Novak Djokovic. Nadal has competed infrequently in the past two

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Speaker 3: seasons because of injuries, and said next month's Davis Cup

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Speaker 3: finals will mark his farewell to the sport. Australian tennis

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Speaker 3: stars of different generations, including Nick Curios and Rod Labor,

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Speaker 3: were among those saluting the great player. After Nadal declared

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Speaker 3: on Thursday he would be retiring, Curious wrote on x Ruffer,

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Speaker 3: don't retire, I want to play you one last time.

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Speaker 3: Nadal's fourteen French Open titles are more than anyone man

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Speaker 3: or woman has wanted a single Grand Slam tournament. His

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Speaker 3: dominance at the French Open is so legendary they even

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Speaker 3: put a statue of him near the main entrance to

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Speaker 3: the grounds. President Vladimir Zelenski has on a visit to

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Speaker 3: London stepped up pressure on the UK to grant Ukraine

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Speaker 3: permission to use storm Shadow missiles to strike targets in Russia.

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Speaker 3: In three way talks in Downing Street, the British Prime Minister,

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Speaker 3: the Ukrainian President, and NATO Security General discussed the state

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Speaker 3: of war. Following the talks, mister Zelenski said, the victory

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Speaker 3: plan aims to create the right conditions for a just

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Speaker 3: end to the war. I thank the United Kingdom for

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Speaker 3: its continued defense support of our country, including with long

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Speaker 3: range weapons. Mister Zelensky has been pushing for permission to

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Speaker 3: use storm Shadow and other westerns aplied weapons to hit

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Speaker 3: the Russian air bases and other military sites, which are

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Speaker 3: being used to target Ukrainian cities and infrastructure. Australia could

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Speaker 3: create thousands of jobs and help transition workers from the

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Speaker 3: fossil fuel industry by producing wind towers domestically. Currently, all

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Speaker 3: wind towers are imported, though wind energy powers seven percent

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Speaker 3: of the nation's electricity. A study by the Center for

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Speaker 3: Future Work found that local manufacturing could generate four thousand

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Speaker 3: jobs plus thousands more in industries like steel, producing eight

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Speaker 3: hundred towers annually worth fifteen billion dollars over the next

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Speaker 3: seventeen years. It could also cut two point six million

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Speaker 3: tons of CO two by reducing shipping emissions. Wind towers

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Speaker 3: have previously been manufactured in Australia, but the small factories

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Speaker 3: have no further orders due in part to aggressive overseas

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Speaker 3: subsidies and an absence of domestic support. Mariah Carey is

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Speaker 3: set to re release All I Want for Christmas Is You.

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Speaker 3: The singer first unveiled the Christmas song in October nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety four, the first single on her album Merry Christmas.

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Speaker 3: It sold fifteen million copies, and to celebrate the song

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Speaker 3: turning thirty, she's re releasing it as well as a

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Speaker 3: new version of the LP Merry Christmas. Carrie shared the

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Speaker 3: news on her Instagram account and recreated the cover album,

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Speaker 3: which shows her dressed in a Santa inspired jumpsuit. The song,

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Speaker 3: which reportedly only took fifteen minutes to write and compose,

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Speaker 3: generates an estimated six hundred thousand US dollars a year

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Speaker 3: in royalties for Carrie.

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Speaker 2: That's your latest news headlines next you just got fired?

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Speaker 2: What the heck are you supposed to do now? Getting fired?

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Speaker 2: Being let go, walked off the job or going in

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Speaker 2: another direction. There's no nice way of saying it. Once

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Speaker 2: you've been dumped out from a job, it can be devastating.

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Speaker 4: I'm afraid we're gonna have to let you go.

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Speaker 1: You're fired?

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Speaker 2: Is there no way we can get rid of him?

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Speaker 4: Not without card Michael?

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Speaker 2: I have cause it is because I hate him. According

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Speaker 2: to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, in February, there were

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Speaker 2: two point one million p people who left or lost

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Speaker 2: a job in the previous twelve months, and while that

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Speaker 2: number is down from February twenty twenty three, the number

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Speaker 2: of people retrenched in twenty twenty four was up by

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Speaker 2: eleven percent, So that's nearly two hundred and thirty five

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Speaker 2: thousand people who lost their jobs from getting fired to

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Speaker 2: made redundant, dismissals, retrenchment, and so on. And while the

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Speaker 2: most common reason for people leaving a job was to

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Speaker 2: get a better job, it was men who were more

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Speaker 2: likely to be made redundant or fired, while women reported

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Speaker 2: leaving a job for family reasons. Well, we can't dig

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Speaker 2: into the data to find out just why these people

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Speaker 2: were fired, we can ask you, and so we did

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Speaker 2: and the answers, well, they varied.

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Speaker 4: I work in hospitality and got ghosted.

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Speaker 1: They just stopped putting me on the roster for shifts.

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Speaker 4: I was fired after being promoted into a job that

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Speaker 4: my boss knew I wasn't qualified for.

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Speaker 5: I confessed to my boss that I was really unhappy

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Speaker 5: with my role and I was struggling with my mental health.

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Speaker 5: He really politely asked me what I wanted to do next,

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Speaker 5: and from then on we made a plan together for

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Speaker 5: me to leave within the next month.

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Speaker 6: I was fired from one of my hospitality jobs when

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Speaker 6: I was at teen because I accidentally spilled a tray

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Speaker 6: of red wines on a customer. They fired me over email,

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Speaker 6: saying my termination was effective immediately, and when I emailed

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Speaker 6: asking for the reasons for my termination. They ghasted me.

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Speaker 5: I was fired for telling a customer the truth about

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Speaker 5: an outfit not suiting her, but then sold her twice

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Speaker 5: as much in closed it did.

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Speaker 4: I was in a dead end job doing paperwork for

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Speaker 4: a boat sales company. I applied for grad school for

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Speaker 4: the following year, and I got in and work found

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Speaker 4: out about it, so they brought in someone to do

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Speaker 4: my job the next day and fired me. It was

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Speaker 4: deemed unfair dismissal by the employment regulator, so they had

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Speaker 4: to pay me anyways.

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Speaker 7: The most traumatic experience was my first experience. I'd been

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Speaker 7: working at a film distributor for ten years. It was

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Speaker 7: the love of my life, but I knew something was

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Speaker 7: up when my boss requested a breakfast meeting one evening

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Speaker 7: for the next day. When I met him the next day,

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Speaker 7: everything seemed no I said, Gosh, I have to tell

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Speaker 7: you I didn't sleep well last night because I kept thinking, well,

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Speaker 7: he is going to fire me tomorrow. My boss's face

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Speaker 7: dropped and he said, well, that's the guts of it.

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Speaker 7: It was one of the formative breakups of my life. Now,

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Speaker 7: whenever my boss sends me an unsolicited email requesting a meeting,

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Speaker 7: My palms get sweaty and my stomach drops down to

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Speaker 7: my shoes.

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Speaker 8: I was fired after six weeks working as an apprentice

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Speaker 8: hairdresser because I refused to let the owner cut my

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Speaker 8: hair into a pixie cut because she wanted her staff

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Speaker 8: to have a certain aesthetic.

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Speaker 7: Look.

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Speaker 2: I myself will admit I have been fired from jobs before,

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Speaker 2: once as a rebellious teen who definitely bucked the dress

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Speaker 2: code at a local supermarket, and once as a very

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Speaker 2: very young journalist who was very underprepared and undersupervised too.

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Speaker 2: And while it might feel like your world is crumbling,

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Speaker 2: there's a sense of rejection that settles in and you

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Speaker 2: begin to worry about the lack of cash flow. There

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Speaker 2: are some things you can do to help eat Let's

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Speaker 2: call it transition. Michelle Battersby is a career columnist and

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Speaker 2: co founder of The Sun Room, a platform for online creators. Michelle,

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Speaker 2: is there a nice way to be fired?

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Speaker 1: That's like asking you, is there a nice way to

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Speaker 1: be broken up with? You? Know? I think being fired

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Speaker 1: can often feel like a breakup. So I think it

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Speaker 1: comes down to if you saw it coming, perhaps how

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Speaker 1: prepared you were, If the writing was on the wall,

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Speaker 1: or if it was more of a blind side. I

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Speaker 1: think all of those factors contribute to how you're going

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Speaker 1: to feel. On the other side, maybe you want a severance,

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Speaker 1: maybe you want to be fired so you're okay with it.

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Speaker 1: And maybe on the other hand, it was a complete

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Speaker 1: blind side and so you're not so okay with it.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's a one word answer.

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Speaker 1: I think there are quite a few things that play

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Speaker 1: into that.

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Speaker 2: As an employer, is there a correct way to do

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Speaker 2: a firing.

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Speaker 1: In Australia there are definitely protocols and legislation in place

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Speaker 1: that you should be following. So in the time I've

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Speaker 1: worked as an HR generalist in Australia and in owning

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Speaker 1: my own company, you often hear and no surprises policy.

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Speaker 1: So my approach to letting someone go has always been

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Speaker 1: that if they see it as a surprise, I've not

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Speaker 1: done my job well. So it should never be a surprise.

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Speaker 1: If someone is underperforming, they should be aware that they're

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Speaker 1: underperforming and they should be on a performance improvement plan.

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Speaker 1: You need to be operating with morals and ethics, and

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Speaker 1: I think sitting on the other side being the person

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Speaker 1: who sometimes is the one firing people. It feels a

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Speaker 1: hell of a lot better if you know you've given

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Speaker 1: them every opportunity and chance to improve, and you've had

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Speaker 1: clear communication throughout, and then by the time that conversation

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Speaker 1: comes around, it's not a surprise. So I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would be operating with that kind of mentality.

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Speaker 1: If they aren't, I'd be asking questions about the kind

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Speaker 1: of workforce and culture that is in place. And of

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Speaker 1: course I just talking about the things like underperforming as

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Speaker 1: opposed to gross misconduct or something like that, where it

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Speaker 1: might be a very quick conversation and you are just

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Speaker 1: out the door because you've done something that is completely,

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Speaker 1: you know, against the rules.

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Speaker 2: This might be a controversial question to ask, but how

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Speaker 2: much responsibility should we be taking if we're fired. Is

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Speaker 2: there like a period where we should be reflecting about

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Speaker 2: maybe we were fired because we weren't performing our duties

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Speaker 2: correctly or to the standard that was expected. Maybe we

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Speaker 2: fudge the numbers a little bit on our resume and

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Speaker 2: we weren't totally qualified for the job. Is there a

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Speaker 2: part that the employee needs to play in that sort

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Speaker 2: of reflection period as well?

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Speaker 1: Definitely, I think that being fired can be an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to pause, an opportunity to reflect, focus on

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Speaker 1: what you've learned from the experience, what you could do

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Speaker 1: better in the next role. I know, as a manager,

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Speaker 1: often when I'm letting someone go, I'm actually doing the

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Speaker 1: same on my side as well, Like, what was my

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Speaker 1: role in this? Did I ignore an orange or a

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Speaker 1: red flag? Did I not give clear instruction? Was I

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Speaker 1: not managing that person to the best of my ability

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Speaker 1: in a way that was right for the kinds of

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Speaker 1: ways they like to work? So I do think it's

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Speaker 1: a really good moment to look inward and to think

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Speaker 1: about if there are skills that you could be developing,

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Speaker 1: if there are courses maybe you could do in that

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Speaker 1: loop period between you know, being let go and starting

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Speaker 1: your new role, or if you know you're on the

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Speaker 1: right career path, if you've been working the right kinds

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Speaker 1: of organizations, it definitely creates an opportunity to check in

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Speaker 1: with yourself and decide where it might be the best

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Speaker 1: next step.

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Speaker 2: So, say you've actually just been fired, You've been let

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Speaker 2: go from your job for whatever reason, and panic starts

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Speaker 2: to set in. What should you do, Like what are

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Speaker 2: the immediate steps after you get fired from a place.

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Speaker 2: I know that it will very sort of industry into street,

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Speaker 2: but there's some sort of standard rules of what should

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Speaker 2: happen next.

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Speaker 1: If you are not being followed up pretty quickly by

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Speaker 1: your manager with a very short summary of what the

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Speaker 1: conversation was about the fact that you've been let go,

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Speaker 1: when your end date is, what your severance package might be,

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Speaker 1: what your annual leave payout might be, that would be

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Speaker 1: a bit of a red flag to me. And I

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Speaker 1: think if it's been twenty four hours and you haven't

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Speaker 1: received that email, I would definitely be following up with

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Speaker 1: a Hey, you know we met yesterday at this time.

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Speaker 1: Here's what we discussed. It's my understanding that I have

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Speaker 1: X amount of annually recruit or any other benefits that

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Speaker 1: you might be owed. Let me know when this will

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Speaker 1: be paid out to me type thing, and make sure

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Speaker 1: that those conversations are happening and that you're documenting things.

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Speaker 1: But if you're not being followed up pretty quickly by

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Speaker 1: your manager, I would be thinking you might be in

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Speaker 1: a smaller business, or you might be working with someone

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Speaker 1: who might not be following every rule. So definitely important

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Speaker 1: to make sure you're documenting on your side in case

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Speaker 1: you might need to seek professional advice yourself to get

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Speaker 1: through that process.

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Speaker 2: So Step one confirm you've actually been fired.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: There are so many people now that are working and

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Speaker 2: operating in that freelance or that geg. Economy Michelle, what

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Speaker 2: should they consider when they've been fired and how might

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Speaker 2: that be different to someone who's like a full time

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Speaker 2: employee at a company.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the hard things about being a

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Speaker 1: freelancer is that you aren't as protected as someone in

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Speaker 1: a full time job. You wouldn't be accruing benefits, and

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Speaker 1: you might not be covered by the same sort of

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Speaker 1: like dismissal laws that are in place specifically in Australia.

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Speaker 1: You might be on a contract where someone can just

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Speaker 1: terminate that contract within thirty days. I think it's especially

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Speaker 1: with the economy at the moment where there is just

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Speaker 1: so much and over a lot of layoffs. A lot

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Speaker 1: of companies are starting to work more and more with

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Speaker 1: contractors as a cheaper option. I think, as a cheaper

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Speaker 1: and like less commitment type option. I think it is

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Speaker 1: important as a contractor that you've got solid contracts in

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Speaker 1: place on your side. What Are you okay with when

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Speaker 1: it comes to termination. Do you have it documented how

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Speaker 1: your invoices are going to be processed in the case

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Speaker 1: that you are terminated. Are you on retainer? What does

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Speaker 1: that mean for your retainer? And there is just a

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Speaker 1: little bit more admin and thinking that you should be

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Speaker 1: doing on your side because you aren't. Really Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the risk with becoming a freelancer, to be honest.

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Speaker 2: One of the other things that came up a lot

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Speaker 2: we so the audience was redundancy. A lot of people

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Speaker 2: have been made redundant. Can you just walk us through

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Speaker 2: that process of what that actually means and can.

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Speaker 1: Look like, yeah, oh my god, you're really Now I'm

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Speaker 1: really having to think deep because I used to make

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Speaker 1: people redundant when I was in Australia, so I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure if the laws haven't changed when I was doing it.

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Speaker 1: You have to give someone twenty four hours notice. So

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Speaker 1: if you're going to be made redundant, you will likely

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Speaker 1: see a calendar invite come into your inbox. It'll be

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Speaker 1: around twenty four hours out from when that meeting is

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Speaker 1: going to be taking place. It will probably include an

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Speaker 1: HI representative and your manager, and you'll receive an email

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Speaker 1: that you are having a meeting tomorrow at X time

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Speaker 1: and you can bring a support person. So if things

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Speaker 1: haven't changed legally, you're allowed to bring a support person.

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Speaker 1: Some people do bring lawyers into those meetings. If you

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Speaker 1: are planning on bringing a lawyer into that meeting, like

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Speaker 1: if you don't feel like what's about to go down

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Speaker 1: is going to be fair, maybe based on things you've

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Speaker 1: been experiencing at the company, you might want a lawyer

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Speaker 1: to be present. But if you're going to bring a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: you have to let your employer know that a lawyer

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Speaker 1: will be present because they might want someone present as well.

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Speaker 1: And then you would go into the meeting. Normally, it

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Speaker 1: would be quite quick, to be honest, and the company

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Speaker 1: would need to provide rationale as to why you're being

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Speaker 1: made redundant, and that means that your role is no

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Speaker 1: longer required in the company. Normally, the company will also

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Speaker 1: have to prove that they have looked for redeployment options

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Speaker 1: for you, like can you be put into another department?

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Speaker 1: Is there a similar role available that might be the

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Speaker 1: right fit for you, So they would let you know

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Speaker 1: that they've done that and that there is nothing available,

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Speaker 1: and then they would provide you with your severance package,

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Speaker 1: which is a certain amount of weeks based on year's

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Speaker 1: service that you've had. So I'm again really digging my

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Speaker 1: memory here, but I think back in my time, it

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Speaker 1: was something like four weeks for your first year and

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Speaker 1: then three weeks for every year after that was what

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Speaker 1: your severance package was made up of, as well as

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Speaker 1: any annual leave that you've accrued. And normally they will

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Speaker 1: also put you in touch with their employee assistance program

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Speaker 1: just so you can chat to someone if you need.

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Speaker 1: But I do think the silver lining of being made

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Speaker 1: redundant is that it normally comes alongside a severance package,

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Speaker 1: which might be a decent amount of money based on

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Speaker 1: the amount of time you've been at the company, and

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Speaker 1: then you can really take your time deciding where you

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Speaker 1: go to next, reassessing your options, give yourself a little

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Speaker 1: bit of time to grieve and feel all the feels,

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Speaker 1: and then make the next step. But it was actually

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Speaker 1: reading the other day. I think on average, everyone will

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Speaker 1: be made redundant at least once in their career, so

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Speaker 1: it's very very normal and yet something that a lot

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Speaker 1: of us go through.

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Speaker 2: My final question for Michelle, depending on the situation when

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Speaker 2: you leave a job, if you've been fired, is it

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Speaker 2: still okay to ask for a reference?

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. I think so, And I think

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Speaker 1: it also can come down to how you handle yourself

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Speaker 1: in that moment, Like it can be blindside and it

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Speaker 1: can be such a shock, and I think we enter

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Speaker 1: the workforce with such grace, you know, we put our

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Speaker 1: best foot forward. And I've heard someone else refer to

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Speaker 1: this once as elegantly exiting a business, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's really important to do that where you can don't

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Speaker 1: burn bridges. Sometimes it might be that it wasn't clear

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Speaker 1: from the start, you know, what the skills were that

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Speaker 1: were required in that role, and maybe you've worked really

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Speaker 1: hard with your manager to develop those areas and you've

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Speaker 1: just not got there. But you might have skills in

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Speaker 1: another area that they still think, you know, still see

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Speaker 1: value in and think are really great. But I think

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Speaker 1: you need to have some self awareness of where those

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Speaker 1: gaps were, because that manager that provides that reference might

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Speaker 1: bring up those gaps when they give that reference for you,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I think you need to be acting

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Speaker 1: with integrity in your next interviews and explaining, you know,

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Speaker 1: it just wasn't a match. We worked really hard on it.

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Speaker 1: I've done some reflect and realized that, you know, A,

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Speaker 1: B and C were things that I needed to work on.

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Speaker 1: I've gone and worked on those and I'm still, you know,

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Speaker 1: amazing in these areas. And then your manager will back

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Speaker 1: that up as well if you if you need the reference.

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Speaker 2: Could getting fired by the start of your redemption arc.

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Speaker 2: Maybe your boss did you a massive favor. You know

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Speaker 2: what they say, one door closes and well, you get it.

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Speaker 2: The Quikie is produced by me Taylor Strano, with assistance

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Speaker 2: from Grace Rubrey and audio production by Jacob Brown.