Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was
Speaker 1: recorded on It's February nineteen ninety three in outback Victoria
Speaker 1: and the tiny town of Antwerp is sweltering through a
Speaker 1: forty degree day. Ralph Volmer and some of his neighbors
Speaker 1: are sitting down for lunch in his home's kitchen. It's
Speaker 1: been an exhausting four days and they're confident that successfully
Speaker 1: freed his wife of the demons that have possessed her body.
Speaker 1: Joan still hasn't stirred, though they've been waiting for her
Speaker 1: resurrection for days. I'm not sure why it's taking so long.
Speaker 1: They call the local Baptist minister for guidance, who swiftly
Speaker 1: calls the local doctor, who calls the police because the
Speaker 1: group is calmly eating sandwiches next to a horrifying scene,
Speaker 1: the decomposing remains of forty nine years old Joan Volmer,
Speaker 1: whose body clearly shows the horrific effects of starvation, abuse
Speaker 1: and torture. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime
Speaker 1: Conversations Amoma Mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes
Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
Speaker 1: Joan Volmer was the victim of a violent four day
Speaker 1: exorcism performed by her husband and three other members of
Speaker 1: her local religious community. They believed that ten demons were
Speaker 1: in control of her body and subjected her to horrific
Speaker 1: violent abuse in an attempt to rid her of them.
Speaker 1: If that's not shocking enough, the justice system's reaction to
Speaker 1: this gruesome crime is equally as baffling. Today, we've got
Speaker 1: a very different guest on to talk us through this story.
Speaker 1: Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play
Speaker 1: by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of what
Speaker 1: happened to Joan. We wanted to explore a few things
Speaker 1: in our chat with Margaret, the case itself and the
Speaker 1: complexities of turning real true crime stories into entertainment. It's
Speaker 1: certainly not a new phenomenon. Streaming services are full of
Speaker 1: based on a true story, fictionalized reenactments of awful crimes.
Speaker 1: Margaret had some interesting insights to share about how to
Speaker 1: tread that line respectfully and sensitively. Here's our chat, Margaret.
Speaker 1: This is a bit of a different one for us.
Speaker 1: You're the director of a play that's based on a true,
Speaker 1: horrible crime that happened in Australia in the nineties. It's
Speaker 1: called Furious Mattress, and I want to get this question
Speaker 1: out of the way nice and early before joining this project.
Speaker 1: Did you have to grapple with the fix of turning
Speaker 1: a real life tragedy into I mean, we'll call it entertainment,
Speaker 1: fictionalized entertainment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really important question, actually, and one that
Speaker 2: I haven't actually been able to talk about very much
Speaker 2: through the process, So I'm really.
Speaker 3: Excited to answer this.
Speaker 2: I think that when I first read the show, I
Speaker 2: was grappling a lot with the amount of physical violence,
Speaker 2: particularly obviously against women, that is presented in the production,
Speaker 2: and I thought a lot about it, because you know,
Speaker 2: putting a dead woman on stage at any point is
Speaker 2: always a difficult question, and putting intimate partner violence on
Speaker 2: stage is always something that we're talking about. But I
Speaker 2: think the show spoke to me so much, and this
Speaker 2: story spoke to me so much. It's said in the nineties,
Speaker 2: in the same way that the original case obviously happened
Speaker 2: in the nineties, but was written in twenty ten twenty
Speaker 2: eleven had its original production then and then hasn't been
Speaker 2: touched since. And I do a lot of activism work
Speaker 2: and have spent lots of time talking about intimate partner
Speaker 2: violence and sexual violence and things like that through my
Speaker 2: activism work, and I thought a lot about what representation.
Speaker 3: Means right now.
Speaker 2: And I think when it's in the hands of someone
Speaker 2: and a team that is really passionate about making sure
Speaker 2: that else who's the equivalent of the real Joan in
Speaker 2: the story is represented in a complex, detailed way, and
Speaker 2: that at the heart of it, you're telling a story
Speaker 2: about two people who love each other so much that
Speaker 2: they would do anything for each other.
Speaker 3: Because Ralph Slash.
Speaker 2: Pierce in the show, you know, loved his wife so
Speaker 2: much that he wanted to perform and exorcism on her
Speaker 2: because he wanted her to be the way that she
Speaker 2: used to be, you know, he wanted her to be safe.
Speaker 2: And that's the deep irony that sits inside of the play.
Speaker 2: And the real story is performing violence. How far would
Speaker 2: you go for the people that you love and what
Speaker 2: would you do to them? How much would you hurt
Speaker 2: them to try and save them? And I think that's
Speaker 2: ultimately what the story is about. So it was a
Speaker 2: difficult question. But I think that we've had millions of
Speaker 2: consultants and all sorts of things on this project to
Speaker 2: make sure that we're doing it properly, we're doing it safely,
Speaker 2: and that we're telling the story in the right way.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I feel good about it. I guess
Speaker 2: is the short's the short answer of the question.
Speaker 1: I've also dabbled in the reviews, yes, and I've seen
Speaker 1: the play described as tragic obviously but also comedic, which
Speaker 1: made me pause because how do you do that sensitively?
Speaker 2: Yeah, mel who's the play Rights written by Melissa Eves,
Speaker 2: has written this extraordinary piece of work that is deeply
Speaker 2: and horribly funny and has obviously taken liberties outside of
Speaker 2: the real case. There's a lot more sort of supernatural
Speaker 2: events inside of the show then I imagine were in
Speaker 2: the real situation. And I think that's the beautiful thing
Speaker 2: about theater and about art is that Mel's telling a
Speaker 2: story about love, and so she's taken Liberty's inside of
Speaker 2: that to do that, And there are some truly hilarious bits.
Speaker 3: We were just doing a bit.
Speaker 2: I've just literally walked away from the theater to come
Speaker 2: here today and we're just doing a bit that is
Speaker 2: so so funny, and the tragedy inside of the show
Speaker 2: is that Else and Pierce, their relationship is so strong
Speaker 2: and so beautiful, and that they are funny together and
Speaker 2: they do have fun together, and that's why when what
Speaker 2: happens unfolds, it's so heartbreaking, because there is a real
Speaker 2: relationship and love there, and I think sometimes you can't
Speaker 2: really have the darkness in the way that this play
Speaker 2: asks for darkness in droves.
Speaker 3: Without having that humor and that light.
Speaker 2: Lots of people really do believe in deliverance and exorcism
Speaker 2: in the real world, as I've learned through doing this process,
Speaker 2: but they also the sort of courage of conviction or
Speaker 2: deep conviction inside of believing in this process is can
Speaker 2: be very funny because they sort of grab on to
Speaker 2: small moments like a move of an eyebrow or a
Speaker 2: nodding of a head and turn it into huge moments
Speaker 2: of like that's a demon.
Speaker 3: That's a demon. That's a demon, And.
Speaker 2: Inevitably that's kind of hilarious because from the outside we're
Speaker 2: sitting there being like, well, that's obviously not a demon.
Speaker 2: Like what, but so, yeah, that's part of where the
Speaker 2: humor comes from.
Speaker 1: I think, have you had any tension from anyone involved
Speaker 1: in the real life story, any feedback?
Speaker 2: I think that the original production did have tension, which
Speaker 2: was at the Malt House in Melbourne in twenty and eleven,
Speaker 2: I believe, but I know we haven't heard anything. But
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, part of I think when you're
Speaker 2: telling stories that matter is that you should end up
Speaker 2: with conflict sometimes because if we just tell stories that
Speaker 2: are safe, then we won't come into conflict. But you know,
Speaker 2: talking about something that is so relevant right now, the
Speaker 2: death of that young girl very recently in the news
Speaker 2: at the hands of ultra religious parents and ultra religious
Speaker 2: group is so relevant to this case, and you sort
Speaker 2: of see like how over time, you know, maybe our
Speaker 2: perspectives on that have changed a lot, given that in
Speaker 2: this original case with Joan Volma, they got away with it,
Speaker 2: they weren't sentenced in any way, and like that speaks
Speaker 2: so much to where Australia was in the nineties with
Speaker 2: women and domestic violence, and you know how we valued
Speaker 2: women's lives. And so yeah, anyway, no no contact from
Speaker 2: anyone involved in the original story. I'm sure they wish
Speaker 2: to put it behind them themselves.
Speaker 1: I am going to get to the real story. But
Speaker 1: I am curious to hear your thoughts because obviously, this
Speaker 1: play is not the first time that based on a
Speaker 1: real story has been turned into art. We see it
Speaker 1: every day on Netflix on all the streaming services. Do
Speaker 1: you think it can be taken too far? I'm thinking
Speaker 1: automatically about the Menendez Brothers that was turned into a
Speaker 1: fictionalized based on a real so it's done over and
Speaker 1: over again. What are your thoughts on the way we
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: I think that I used to be really obsessed with
Speaker 2: true crime like adaptations, and I think that I moved
Speaker 2: away from it partially because you know, I was sort
Speaker 2: of like not able to sleep at night. But I
Speaker 2: think that my take on it is partly that it
Speaker 2: really depends on if there's a point to telling the story,
Speaker 2: you know. I think that there's some really interesting content
Speaker 2: being made, particularly by the streamers around like how do
Speaker 2: we talk about, you know, violence in sort of the
Speaker 2: different ways that it manifests. What's coming to my mind
Speaker 2: right now is Baby Reindeer, which obviously has just been
Speaker 2: like a huge success, and that story is so interesting
Speaker 2: because lots of those crimes that that character, the woman,
Speaker 2: she sort of steps over lines that are would never
Speaker 2: have been considered crimes ten fifteen years ago, right, like
Speaker 2: sending lots and lots of text and inundating and but
Speaker 2: then of course you get into the stalking and stuff.
Speaker 2: But I think there's a real point to talking about
Speaker 2: what online violence means and what those sorts of things mean.
Speaker 2: And I think similarly with this story, you know, there's
Speaker 2: kind of very unfortunately a never ending need to continue
Speaker 2: to talk about intimate partner violence and violence against women
Speaker 2: and how different community groups use ultra strong beliefs, like
Speaker 2: it's not just religious groups but different sort of minority
Speaker 2: groups in various forms use you know, belief systems and
Speaker 2: those sorts of things to oppress women in spaces and
Speaker 2: justify violence against them. Is inevitably important to continue to
Speaker 2: talk about, at least here.
Speaker 3: In Australia and you know, pretty much everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2: So I think that's my take on it is that
Speaker 2: if it's got a point, and like that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it's like hitting you over the head with the point,
Speaker 2: but if it's sort of there's a reason for continuing
Speaker 2: to tell these stories, then I think that's important. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I think that we are taking it sort of into
Speaker 2: a place where it's sort of like a sick pleasure,
Speaker 2: and I do think that that is possibly wrong, because
Speaker 2: you're sort of milking people's genuine suffering through like murder
Speaker 2: and the serial killer obsession that we sort of do have,
Speaker 2: you know, the Ted Bundy's, Jeffrey Dahmer's sort of stories.
Speaker 2: We sort of are milking other people's suffering to create
Speaker 2: what I consider to be quite light entertainment. Now, whereas
Speaker 2: you know, I think the great thing about theater I
Speaker 2: think as an art form is that, you know, usually
Speaker 2: usually don't tell stories unless they really matter, because it's
Speaker 2: so hard to do theater. And so I think that
Speaker 2: in this case it's it definitely feels justified.
Speaker 1: Let's tell the real story. Let's tell Joe's Yeah, I
Speaker 1: want you to transport listeners back to Antwerp in Victoria
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. What is that part of the
Speaker 1: country like and what's that community like?
Speaker 2: Really really desolate, I think, is how I would describe it.
Speaker 2: I think at the time the population of the town
Speaker 2: was sixty three people, just tiny it's tiny, like if
Speaker 2: you work in an office block, probably the people on
Speaker 2: your floor or on the two floors above you, is
Speaker 2: that many people that would have been your whole town.
Speaker 2: And the really interesting thing about the real house where
Speaker 2: the events take place is that it's so far away
Speaker 2: from anything else. And you know, there's that classic horror
Speaker 2: you know, no one can hear you scream kind of thing,
Speaker 2: which I think is very real and present in this
Speaker 2: story of Joan, is that she was completely isolated. There's
Speaker 2: no running away from this situation. There's no running to
Speaker 2: the next houseover and and saying, please help me, I'm
Speaker 2: in trouble. The next houseover is ages away, you know,
Speaker 2: acres and acres away from you know, and so on
Speaker 2: and so forth. So there's very little in the town.
Speaker 2: You have to go the next town over in order
Speaker 2: to get to the sort of mainstream Christian church that's there.
Speaker 2: So really I think a lot about sound and about
Speaker 2: silence when I think about this show and about this story,
Speaker 2: because so much time would be passing where all you
Speaker 2: could hear was the sound of nature and nothing else
Speaker 2: was happening around you, and so on the farm that
Speaker 2: Joan and Ralph lived on they were pig farmers, so
Speaker 2: you know, the pigs and things.
Speaker 1: So they were pig farmers or Ralph was a pig farmer. Yes,
Speaker 1: And they were a kind of fairly new relationship, weren't they.
Speaker 1: There's like a second marriage for both of them.
Speaker 3: Yea, their story, that's true.
Speaker 2: So they married when Joan was forty four and Ralph
Speaker 2: was nine, so late in life, which I think is
Speaker 2: really interesting, and he has in previous interviews described it
Speaker 2: as like meeting her was like a miracle, you know,
Speaker 2: like the second chance for him, which I think is
Speaker 2: so beautiful and endearing. He had a previous marriage and
Speaker 2: had a child in that marriage. Joan didn't have children,
Speaker 2: had never married, not sure about her relationship history, but
Speaker 2: had had sort of trouble holding down a job and
Speaker 2: things like that, and he had gone through lots of
Speaker 2: different career paths and was quite entrepreneurial. And then eventually
Speaker 2: sort of they im packed up their lives and moved
Speaker 2: to Antwerp together because there was sort of this sort
Speaker 2: of boom in like pig farming, I think.
Speaker 3: And interesting, really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I would know absolutely nothing about that, being a city
Speaker 2: rat myself. Yeah, So I think all of That is
Speaker 2: really interesting context because you know, you're sort of dipping
Speaker 2: out of the honeymoon phase of a marriage, right, like,
Speaker 2: you know, four or five years in by the time.
Speaker 1: That they everything happened.
Speaker 3: Everything happens.
Speaker 1: Do we know anything about their relationship? You speak about
Speaker 1: it quite fondly. So there was no abuse, there was
Speaker 1: no kind of strains that we know of.
Speaker 2: It's difficult, I guess to tell, because one of the
Speaker 2: big problems with the case is obviously that all of
Speaker 2: the evidence that's gathered mostly is gathered from him and
Speaker 2: his perspective and the people who are defending themselves in
Speaker 2: this case, like they talk about the relationship, but of
Speaker 2: course Joan's voice is missing in that right. Joan's family
Speaker 2: denied some of the claims that he had made about
Speaker 2: them because there was a claim at one point that
Speaker 2: Joan had been sexually abused as a child, and the
Speaker 2: family denied that, of course, I guess, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: think probably the most interesting sort of key point is
Speaker 2: that two two years prior to the events of the
Speaker 2: play slash the real exorcism, Joan had been admitted into
Speaker 2: a institution called Lakeside, and the doctors at that institution
Speaker 2: had said that it was quite likely that Joan was
Speaker 2: suffering from a form of schizophrenia. And I think that's
Speaker 2: really important to all of the rest of the story,
Speaker 2: is that that part mental health kind of being less
Speaker 2: of a topic than it obviously is in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: and our understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia being much
Speaker 2: less clear back then. But she had been to some
Speaker 2: extent diagnosed and given medication that she then came off.
Speaker 2: And I think that's really important setting for the events
Speaker 2: of the story.
Speaker 1: So in January nineteen ninety three, what kind of behavior
Speaker 1: did Rolf say he was starting to notice in Joan?
Speaker 2: So he said that he was starting to notice she
Speaker 2: was lurching and dancing outside, sometimes naked, which disturbed him greatly.
Speaker 2: He claimed that she was quote this is actual quote
Speaker 2: acting like a prostitute, which he said at the trial,
Speaker 2: and that she took on the physical form of a
Speaker 2: pig and a dog and the personality of a sheep shearer,
Speaker 2: and that she was swearing loudly. She would tear off
Speaker 2: her clothes and run through the fields. So I think
Speaker 2: it's important sometimes on podcasts about I've listened to absolutely
Speaker 2: everything that there is to listen to about this case,
Speaker 2: and sometimes I do think that there's like a immediately
Speaker 2: a characterization of Ralph as like a quite like an abusive,
Speaker 2: violent man. And I think that actually it's really important
Speaker 2: to remember that he did all of this because he
Speaker 2: loved her, and that like it's hard for us, I think,
Speaker 2: like modern audiences and modern women to like wrap their
Speaker 2: heads around how that's possible. But sometimes I think love
Speaker 2: is like so intense that you do those things. And
Speaker 2: so I do think that he was probably actually quite
Speaker 2: scared of her behavior and like physically felt threatened. And
Speaker 2: so I think this that's quite an interesting sort of
Speaker 2: back drop as well, that this kind of behavior which
Speaker 2: obviously I think to like, it's quite obvious that if
Speaker 2: she'd come off her meds that she'd been given, you
Speaker 2: know that it was just a resurgence in the behavior
Speaker 2: as a result of coming off the meds.
Speaker 1: To me, that sounds like a clear ment.
Speaker 3: Totally obvious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally obvious, And I completely agree with that. But
Speaker 2: I also think that like him turning to God in
Speaker 2: this moment because he was extremely devout and turns to well,
Speaker 2: what can God do for me in this moment? And
Speaker 2: the solution that's presented to him by his fellow charismatic
Speaker 2: Christians is like exoricism and deliverance.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the people he turns to for help,
Speaker 1: because they actually had been excommunicated from their church, right,
Speaker 1: so we've got lots of play here. But they were
Speaker 1: giving him very skewed advice. What was their kind of story?
Speaker 1: Why had they been excommunicated?
Speaker 2: So Leanne Reichenbach, who was their neighbor, I don't know
Speaker 2: if she was a direct neighbor or you know, somewhere
Speaker 2: in the town, but lived in Antwerp as well. They
Speaker 2: had a Bible study group, her and her husband, and
Speaker 2: they had actually started this group yet, as you say,
Speaker 2: after being excommunicated, and she had been excommunicated for, which
Speaker 2: is really interesting and I sort of can't quite wrap
Speaker 2: my head around what Ralph was thinking at this moment,
Speaker 2: is that she had been excommunicated from the church for
Speaker 2: trying to exercise too many people and trying to perform
Speaker 2: exorcisms without enough evidence. Because it's really important to note
Speaker 2: that the Catholic Church in particular has really really strict
Speaker 2: rules whether or not a person is allowed to have
Speaker 2: an exorcism performed on them. Or not, and it's a
Speaker 2: really like clear list of criteria. Then it has to
Speaker 2: go all the way up to the highest levels of
Speaker 2: the church before it gets approved and comes back.
Speaker 1: So it is still something we do.
Speaker 3: It's still church.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm not religious, so this is news to me.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well news to you is that it is
Speaker 2: absolutely something that people are still doing, both inside and
Speaker 2: outside of the church. And yes, so anyway, so Leanne
Speaker 2: had tried too many times with very little evidence, to
Speaker 2: perform exorisms on people and had encouraged people to have
Speaker 2: exorcisms when it just like clearly wasn't necessary because.
Speaker 3: You know, with the church, the official church procedure.
Speaker 2: You have to see a psychiatrist, you have to see
Speaker 2: a doctor, you have to see all these people.
Speaker 3: Who can testify it.
Speaker 2: No, no, this is actually something other than medical. So
Speaker 2: she is quite an interesting character and is represented inside
Speaker 2: of our show as well.
Speaker 3: So he turns to.
Speaker 2: Leanne first, and then Leanne starts to bring in all
Speaker 2: these other people, which is really like the rest of
Speaker 2: these people are so interesting and like you just sort
Speaker 2: of can't quite wrap your heads around what must.
Speaker 3: Have been going on inside of this house for these four.
Speaker 1: Days you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Margaret Thanos, director of Furious Mattress, a
Speaker 1: play by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of
Speaker 1: a four day exorcism in Victoria, Australia. Up next to
Speaker 1: Margaret tells us how the exorcism started and how Joan
Speaker 1: was identified as having multiple demons within her. I want
Speaker 1: to bring in the people as because it's a four
Speaker 1: day kind of yees series of events we're talking about. Yes,
Speaker 1: it starts, it escalates, So how does it start? What
Speaker 1: is the starting point? What does she suggest to Rolf
Speaker 1: that he do so?
Speaker 2: At first, Rolf attempts to get rid of the demons
Speaker 2: on his own by locking.
Speaker 3: Joan in the basement and he leaves her.
Speaker 2: There, and obviously she screams all through the night, and
Speaker 2: so later he ties her to the bed in the room,
Speaker 2: leaves her there. Again, she's still screaming. It's obviously not working.
Speaker 2: That's when he calls Leanne and that's when this four
Speaker 2: day process begins, and so they have intense prayer sessions and.
Speaker 3: Joan obviously starts to struggle and.
Speaker 1: Because they're not feeding her, they're.
Speaker 2: Not feeding her, okay, they're denying her water, which I think,
Speaker 2: you know obviously is you know, you can't quite understand
Speaker 2: why humans do these sorts of things to each other
Speaker 2: because it sort of seems so obvious that you would
Speaker 2: physically be harming them. But there are so many exorcism
Speaker 2: stories very similar to this, where young women in particular
Speaker 2: are killed this way where you know they've made it.
Speaker 2: They emaciated and then they starved to death through processes
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 1: Horrific.
Speaker 3: It's horrific.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely all they And actually Joan didn't die of starvation,
Speaker 2: she died of the physical force that they were applying
Speaker 2: to her body.
Speaker 1: I would like to add as well that Leanne had
Speaker 1: kind of diagnosed her as having ten demons. It was very.
Speaker 2: Specific, ten specific demons, and I can name some of
Speaker 2: them for you now, which is based on the trial transcripts.
Speaker 3: There was the spirit of filth, the spirit of abuse.
Speaker 2: But the most interesting one, I think is this demon
Speaker 2: which they called Legion, which is actually from a real
Speaker 2: story in the Bible. The meaning of Legion is it's
Speaker 2: like the power of many or the power of lots,
Speaker 2: and this is a very popular demon in.
Speaker 3: The exorcism community.
Speaker 2: Apparently the story from the actual Bible, there's this story
Speaker 2: where Jesus comes across this man who's wandering around in
Speaker 2: the desert and gives him an exorcism and all the
Speaker 2: demons go into this horde.
Speaker 3: Of pigs and then the pigs run off the cliff.
Speaker 2: But the man says this thing before Jesus does this,
Speaker 2: where he goes, we are legion for we are many,
Speaker 2: and apparently Joan was saying something along similar lines at
Speaker 2: the time. So they identified ten specific demons, and I
Speaker 2: think that's quite interesting because when you think about schizophrenia
Speaker 2: and what that is and sort of the personality shifts
Speaker 2: that can seem to be occurring inside of that illness,
Speaker 2: it is quite interesting that, you know, they were actually
Speaker 2: kind of identifying these sort of personalities that were emerging
Speaker 2: from Joan, but they just didn't know why. Oh, they
Speaker 2: justified it in a different way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there are two young men and they were young,
Speaker 1: they're in their twenties. Yes, that Leanne kind of calls
Speaker 1: in to help David Klinger and Matthew Nusk. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us about them because they traveled.
Speaker 3: They traveled from torl Swiss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm a bit obsessed with Matthew in particular
Speaker 2: because he travels all the way from Melbourne Melbourne, CBD
Speaker 2: where he's living at the time, and he's doing a
Speaker 2: plumbing apprenticeship at the time, and that's.
Speaker 3: The only experience he's never done an exorcism before. And
Speaker 3: it's his mother.
Speaker 2: Leanne talks to his mother and his mum recommends him
Speaker 2: because his mum believes that he's possessed with this power
Speaker 2: of God, this power of spirit that will help to
Speaker 2: exercise Joan.
Speaker 3: And he's twenty two years old, like he's extremely young.
Speaker 1: It's instances like this where I start to see the
Speaker 1: comedy because you can't.
Speaker 3: Can't help but think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, NUSK came in and did some really
Speaker 2: really weird things. Instructed the group to destroy all of
Speaker 2: Joan's possessions, including destroying.
Speaker 3: Her very beloved garden. She loved her garden so so,
Speaker 3: so so much.
Speaker 2: But then he did this thing where he wraps cling
Speaker 2: rap around the house seven times, and I'm just obsessed
Speaker 2: with this image, like I can't get it out of
Speaker 2: my head. Just why, no idea I've been researching, trying
Speaker 2: to figure.
Speaker 3: Out what on earth would have been possessed and all?
Speaker 2: And so you do start to see the comedy, don't you,
Speaker 2: Because all I can think of is that he saw
Speaker 2: the cling rap in the drawer and thought on his
Speaker 2: feet and when this will help. I wish that I
Speaker 2: could talk to him, because I just wish that I
Speaker 2: could know.
Speaker 3: Why that was a thing.
Speaker 1: The other man that we're talking about is David. He
Speaker 1: was twenty eight. He also traveled in. He was someone
Speaker 1: else that Leanne called in thinking that he'd be able
Speaker 1: to help. Had a similar story, not much background, not
Speaker 1: much kind of religious standing. So we've got David, Matthew,
Speaker 1: Leanne and rolfs. Was there anyone else across those four
Speaker 1: days that was involved?
Speaker 2: So there was this one other woman called Leah Klugston.
Speaker 2: And I think she's really interesting because Leah never actually appeared,
Speaker 2: She never came to the house during the four days,
Speaker 2: but she was this in a seventies, seventy eight at
Speaker 2: the time, spiritual leader, you know, someone who Leanne clearly
Speaker 2: looks up to and only gave guidance over the phone.
Speaker 3: But at a moment.
Speaker 2: Where Rolf was having clear moments of doubt, he has
Speaker 2: this one moment where he was like, we shouldn't be
Speaker 2: doing this, and they call Leah, and Leah, knowing nothing
Speaker 2: about the state that Joan is in except for what
Speaker 2: they've told her, says, I'm getting a message from God,
Speaker 2: and God is telling me that you must continue. And
Speaker 2: so that is the real turning point I think for Joan.
Speaker 2: You know, like that that moment could have saved her life,
Speaker 2: and instead it didn't.
Speaker 1: Obviously, because we've talked about the fact they've restrained her,
Speaker 1: the fact that they've starved her, all of these things.
Speaker 1: But it starts to get incredibly violent, particularly from those
Speaker 1: younger men.
Speaker 2: She's physically beaten, physically beaten repeatedly across the head, smashed
Speaker 2: into the walls, and they made Matthew, made the others
Speaker 2: sit on her body, and they tied her up with
Speaker 2: her own stockings, which I like, I don't know why,
Speaker 2: but I can't get that image out of my head,
Speaker 2: just like having been tied up with your own possessions,
Speaker 2: and they.
Speaker 3: Restrained her physically.
Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely total totally abusive, totally physically violent, and
Speaker 2: very very dangerous. And then ultimately they do this thing
Speaker 2: in exorcism sometimes which is called like pressing and pressing
Speaker 2: the demons out, and.
Speaker 3: It literally is exactly what it says.
Speaker 2: It's physically pressing on the person's body because they do
Speaker 2: believe that the demons a corporeal in some way and
Speaker 2: that they can be like pressed out and emerge from
Speaker 2: the mouth in a way, and so they press all
Speaker 2: it up up the body to try and apply pressure
Speaker 2: to release the demons from the body. And it was
Speaker 2: that pressure on Joan's thyroid that ends up it burst
Speaker 2: and it ended up killing her.
Speaker 3: The goal wasn't to kill her, absolutely not, No, the
Speaker 3: goal was.
Speaker 1: To get the demons out. When she died, how did
Speaker 1: they react? Was that like that wasn't the plan? But
Speaker 1: she passed away? What was that moment like, because we
Speaker 1: unfortunately have a lot of detail about that moment because
Speaker 1: they've spoken about it in detail.
Speaker 2: Well, the fascinating thing about this case, I think, is
Speaker 2: how long they waited. And this is where the belief
Speaker 2: system sort of really becomes so fascinating, because so Joan dies,
Speaker 2: there's no pulse and they celebrate. They celebrate because they
Speaker 2: believe that she's going to be resurrected and that that's
Speaker 2: God's plan and so much so, you know, this is
Speaker 2: not sort of like a way of justifying it. They
Speaker 2: totally I believe, having read everything I have about the
Speaker 2: case and listen to everything that I could find, I
Speaker 2: totally believe that they believed that she was going to
Speaker 2: come back to life. I really do feel that at
Speaker 2: least Ralph really believed that because he wasn't.
Speaker 3: Ever ashamed of it.
Speaker 2: And it's that key image of the police coming in
Speaker 2: and seeing them sitting at the table eating lunch while
Speaker 2: they are near this body that's totally decomposing two days
Speaker 2: later is really interesting. But yeah, they celebrated and they
Speaker 2: started to pray over the body, and yeah, it was
Speaker 2: only once a few more people had come into the
Speaker 2: situation that then you know, it sort of went we
Speaker 2: need to call a doctor, to call the police. So
Speaker 2: it was two days of praying and waiting, praying and
Speaker 2: waiting and eating lunch. Yeah, And I don't know if
Speaker 2: you know anything about how the body decomposes and how
Speaker 2: quickly the body decomposes, but in the heat that it was,
Speaker 2: it was forty degrees or close to every single day
Speaker 2: in that four days, it was super super hot. In
Speaker 2: that kind of heat, bodies decompose extremely rapidly and so
Speaker 2: by the time that the police found her, she would
Speaker 2: have been very much half gone, really like properly, flies, maggots.
Speaker 3: All sorts of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, it's really vulon, but I think that's it
Speaker 2: is the reality of the images is that after two
Speaker 2: days of waiting, that's how far along the body would be.
Speaker 3: But it's sort of.
Speaker 2: This interesting suspension of disbelief that these people would have
Speaker 2: had to have in order to be watching this body
Speaker 2: in real time decompose. The mel would have been utterly unbelievable,
Speaker 2: like unforgiving, and yet they're standing there praying, singing that
Speaker 2: she's going to wake up. And Ralph he remained totally
Speaker 2: confident that she was going to wake up all the
Speaker 2: way until they buried her at the funeral.
Speaker 1: Next what happens when the police find Jones's body. So
Speaker 1: the police find Jones's body, but they don't arrest anyone initially.
Speaker 3: They kind of just know, no, they don't.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really interesting how the justice system
Speaker 2: dealt with this case. I sort of have questions about
Speaker 2: whether there was just a lot more forgiveness because of
Speaker 2: how truthfully these people seemed to believe that she was
Speaker 2: going to come back to life that like.
Speaker 3: They truly believed. There's this quote.
Speaker 2: Here from Volma where he spoke to media in the
Speaker 2: lead up to the funeral, where he said that everything
Speaker 2: that was done was done according to God's plan. I
Speaker 2: am not sad, only humble and excited that God has
Speaker 2: chosen me to be a part of this miracle. And
Speaker 2: that's in the lead up to the funeral process, which.
Speaker 1: Was about a week after police found her body. Yes,
Speaker 1: and Ralph invites the media to come to the funeral.
Speaker 2: Yes, what happens, and obviously Joan does not wake up,
Speaker 2: and he only ever cried the moment that her the
Speaker 2: coffin hit the ground.
Speaker 3: That that was when he broke down.
Speaker 2: And there's this fantastic photos of him just like super
Speaker 2: Chipper at the beginning of the funeral and then just
Speaker 2: the sort of crumpling at the realization that he actually
Speaker 2: might have had a hand in the murder of his
Speaker 2: own wife.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's all this media.
Speaker 2: At the funeral and taking all these photos of him.
Speaker 1: Jones's body as well as being decomposed, it showed obvious
Speaker 1: science of abuse, Like you could see, yes, that she
Speaker 1: had been hurt, she was restrained, and yet I think
Speaker 1: the thing I struggle to get my head around is
Speaker 1: that there were no arrests for three months.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't really know how to explain it. Like
Speaker 2: I think that there's potentially at that time and maybe
Speaker 2: even now, there's a complexity with practices that happen that
Speaker 2: are on a religious basis here I think here in
Speaker 2: Australia or maybe in the Western world more broadly, I
Speaker 2: think there's like a complexity of what is defensible on
Speaker 2: the basis of someone's religious beliefs is a really really.
Speaker 3: Tricky subject matter.
Speaker 2: I'm in no way justifying that this was ever okay,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't and it never should be, but that
Speaker 2: I think the mentality of the cops, and there's a
Speaker 2: quote that goes something along the lines where one of
Speaker 2: the police said talks about their belief system, and the
Speaker 2: judge as well at the trial spoke about how their
Speaker 2: intense belief that she was going to be resurrected is
Speaker 2: the reason and that they were saving her. Their intense
Speaker 2: belief that through exorcism they were saving her means that
Speaker 2: they don't deserve to be punished for the crime, which
Speaker 2: I think is a really interesting conversation for the present
Speaker 2: moment where it's like, does ignorance mean that you don't
Speaker 2: deserve you know, like I if I killed you right
Speaker 2: now and I said I didn't know it was a crime,
Speaker 2: is that like that would not be justifiable? And so
Speaker 2: it sort of seems like this ignorance was used to
Speaker 2: justify straight.
Speaker 3: Up murder, like it's it's murder.
Speaker 2: And they were all sort of charged initially with manslaughter,
Speaker 2: not even with murder, which is crazy because I I
Speaker 2: guess there was no intent to kill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're talking about there were four people charged,
Speaker 1: so Ralph, yes, that's correct, the husband, Leanne, who was
Speaker 1: that initial kind of person that diagnosed her with the demons,
Speaker 1: and then David and Matthew, men in their twenties. Yes,
Speaker 1: all initially charged with manslaughter. And then initially a magistrate
Speaker 1: found that there was insufficient evidence for trial and they got.
Speaker 2: Let off, I know, which is crazy because there was
Speaker 2: lots of evidence. I mean, I don't know, if you know,
Speaker 2: they had covered things up at the house, you know,
Speaker 2: like I imagine two guys in their twenties in this situation.
Speaker 2: And I remember there's this quote from Matthew where he said,
Speaker 2: you know, if they want me, they'll find me, and he.
Speaker 3: Just sort of like literally left. But they performed another exorcism.
Speaker 2: Leanne performed another exorcism four days later after this incident,
Speaker 2: which I that is one of the facts that just
Speaker 2: makes my head spin, just like you went through all
Speaker 2: of that and then you were like four days later, yeah,
Speaker 2: let's do it again, Like it's so crazy.
Speaker 1: They did end up going to trial, Yes, what was
Speaker 1: the result of that.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, this part's hard to talk about, I think
Speaker 2: because it's really devastating.
Speaker 3: Oh I find it devastating.
Speaker 2: So Ralph and Matthew, the twenty two year old, received suspended.
Speaker 1: Sentences, so no prison time was.
Speaker 2: No prison time, absolutely none. They were found guilty of manslaughter,
Speaker 2: but they didn't receive any prison time, which you know,
Speaker 2: I could go on a rampage and sort of talk
Speaker 2: about like why I think that is. But and then
Speaker 2: David Kligner was sentenced to three months, and interestingly, Leanne,
Speaker 2: the only other woman involved in the situation, was sentenced
Speaker 2: to four months, which you know, is still nothing. But
Speaker 2: I find it really interesting about this case that the
Speaker 2: result of it is that the woman experienced the harshest
Speaker 2: penalty when both ends.
Speaker 1: Like when we know that the men, the young men. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're doing a lot of the physical yes, like beating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think you know, this case and why
Speaker 2: this story is important is because it speaks to something
Speaker 2: so much bigger that's going on. And yeah, I really
Speaker 2: think that these the results from this trial are just
Speaker 2: absolutely devastating for Joan, Like she just never received any
Speaker 2: justice for what happened, and you know, Ralph went on
Speaker 2: to remarry have another life after her, and yet the
Speaker 2: only thing that remains of her is like the memory
Speaker 2: that exists in podcasts like these ones and the story
Speaker 2: of Furious Mattress the show.
Speaker 1: Was there outrage at the time because reading that that
Speaker 1: three of them well basically got to tap on the
Speaker 1: wrist one of them got formal. What was the reaction
Speaker 1: from Australia Because when I was doing research on this story,
Speaker 1: it felt I kind of was wrecking my head being like,
Speaker 1: where's the outrage? There's enough outrage.
Speaker 2: It was interesting because what I've read about it is
Speaker 2: that it divided the Antwerp community, but that on the whole,
Speaker 2: like there just wasn't as much about it as there.
Speaker 3: Should have been.
Speaker 2: You know, like when you think about if that happened. Now,
Speaker 2: I sort of I would hope that, you know, we
Speaker 2: would be kicking up a fuss and trying you know,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe maybe that's idealist to me, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: just think that, you know, the way they spoke about
Speaker 2: it was like beware of lone rangers who do not
Speaker 2: come with the blessing or authority of a recognized denomination,
Speaker 2: like sort of uses a warning story that came from
Speaker 2: the head of the horse Horsham Salvation Army, which is
Speaker 2: a town nearby to Antwerp. But you know, you're sort
Speaker 2: of like, why was this not absolute outrage and discussed,
Speaker 2: you know, across the whole country, Like I think at least,
Speaker 2: or at least that's my understanding of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, when you kind of dipped into the project
Speaker 1: the play, had you heard about this story?
Speaker 3: Never?
Speaker 1: Not? Ever?
Speaker 3: I sort of didn't.
Speaker 2: When I first read the show, I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: it was based on a true story. And then when
Speaker 2: we finished reading the play that night, I was reading
Speaker 2: it with a group of friends and we finished reading
Speaker 2: it and someone was like, I think this might be
Speaker 2: based on a true story, and I was like, surely not,
Speaker 2: Like what what do you mean? Like this would never happen,
Speaker 2: and you know, to sort of then start to dig
Speaker 2: in and to dig even further and then to sort
Speaker 2: of find out all this stuff about the case was
Speaker 2: just remarkable. Like I think, we think about these stories
Speaker 2: and we sort of think about the States, or we
Speaker 2: think about those sorts of things, and the fact that
Speaker 2: it would happen here and has happened here is so scary.
Speaker 2: I found it very scary that it could have happened
Speaker 2: in the nineties.
Speaker 1: And you know, do we know where these people are now?
Speaker 1: Where Rolf, where Matthew, where Leanna are?
Speaker 2: I do know that Matthew. Matthew runs a dream Builder's
Speaker 2: church in Smithton with his wife Sharon, now, which you know,
Speaker 2: to be honest, is utterly terrifying to me. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure that from the age of twenty two to
Speaker 2: now you grow up a lot, and you you know,
Speaker 2: but the idea that there's still running spaces where vulnerable
Speaker 2: people are turning to them in times of need.
Speaker 3: After behavior like this is terrifying.
Speaker 2: Leah died in twenty sixteen, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 3: About Leanne or Ralph. I mean, I think Ralf.
Speaker 2: Came out only very very recently and did make some
Speaker 2: kind of statement potentially admitting that, you know, maybe if
Speaker 2: you could go back, you maybe wouldn't do everything.
Speaker 3: The way that you had.
Speaker 2: But for years he was like, he claimed that maybe
Speaker 2: she didn't want to come back because it was so
Speaker 2: beautiful up in heaven, and that is an actual quote
Speaker 2: that he said. So that belief sort of stayed, and
Speaker 2: he was very adamant for years and years that like
Speaker 2: they'd done the right thing and that if it was
Speaker 2: God's plan for Joan to die, then that was the
Speaker 2: plan that he had made, which I yeah, terrifying.
Speaker 1: I know that the play is based on a true story,
Speaker 1: but does it put any pressure on the questions that
Speaker 1: we've explored about the justice system about Australia's response. What
Speaker 1: are you hoping people get from knowing it's a true story.
Speaker 2: I think that I hope that they see the parallels
Speaker 2: with the amount of women that are still dying at
Speaker 2: the hands of their partners right now in Australia. You know,
Speaker 2: I think we hit one hundred last year, which is
Speaker 2: you know, nearly close to one hundred, which is nearly
Speaker 2: two a week, you know, and I think that where
Speaker 2: we're not in good stead right now, domestic violence in
Speaker 2: Australia is an absolute epidemic, like and there's just no
Speaker 2: other way of describing it other than it's happening so often,
Speaker 2: and it's not just here, you know, we are not
Speaker 2: isolated in this. All around the world, this is still
Speaker 2: such a massive issue. And like the fact that there
Speaker 2: are so many women and girls not safe and children
Speaker 2: not safe in their homes in a country that has
Speaker 2: so much privilege and so much wealth and so much
Speaker 2: possibilities of how we might be able to solve these issues,
Speaker 2: the fact that we're still struggling with these issues speaks
Speaker 2: to much larger cultural issues. And so I hope that
Speaker 2: people come to see the show and that they think
Speaker 2: of Joan, but they also think of the thousands and
Speaker 2: thousands of women that are just like Joan, who are
Speaker 2: also equally as forgotten, if not more forgotten, because you know,
Speaker 2: Joan's story has kind of permeated through time only because
Speaker 2: of the interesting nature of exorcism. You know, we love
Speaker 2: films like The Exorcist. We love that kind of story
Speaker 2: because it's so interesting and it's something other than this world.
Speaker 2: And we love horror as a nation and as a
Speaker 2: group of people on the whole really, and or you know,
Speaker 2: at least the people listening to this podcast, I presumably
Speaker 2: like horror, and it's sort of more the real horror.
Speaker 3: And what I love about the play is that mel
Speaker 3: has written.
Speaker 2: A horror piece, but the real horror is actually the
Speaker 2: idea of not being safe in your own home, and
Speaker 2: that that is a real life horror. You know, we
Speaker 2: can talk about, we can make jokes about crazy things
Speaker 2: happening and objects coming to life and all the wonderful
Speaker 2: things that happen as a part of the play and
Speaker 2: as a part of so many horror films, But at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, the real horror is the
Speaker 2: simplicity of sitting across from your intimate partner and knowing
Speaker 2: that that person could physically harm you, or might want
Speaker 2: to if they are under the influence of alcohol or
Speaker 2: something goes wrong or whatever it is. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that's what I hope people think about as they
Speaker 2: walk out of the show.
Speaker 1: Do you think about Joan much in the creation of
Speaker 1: this totally?
Speaker 2: I think I feel I hope that the show's in
Speaker 2: memory of her, But as I said, of all women
Speaker 2: who've died in ways like this or been harmed in
Speaker 2: ways this. I hope that people do read about the
Speaker 2: original case. I hope it leads more people to think
Speaker 2: about the fact that this is based on a true story.
Speaker 2: I hope it leads to that, because, you know, I
Speaker 2: think that sometimes we can isolate ourselves from stories like
Speaker 2: this and say, you know, oh, that would never happen here,
Speaker 2: and that's the whole point. Like it did and it
Speaker 2: still does in various forms.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Margaret for helping us to tell this story.
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mum and mea podcast hosted
Speaker 1: and produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with
Speaker 1: audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation