WEBVTT - The Four-Day Exorcism Of Joan Vollmer 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.142 You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.662 the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 0:00:19.702 --> 0:00:25.342 recorded on It's February nineteen ninety three in outback Victoria 0:00:26.102 --> 0:00:28.942 and the tiny town of Antwerp is sweltering through a 0:00:29.022 --> 0:00:32.662 forty degree day. Ralph Volmer and some of his neighbors 0:00:32.702 --> 0:00:36.102 are sitting down for lunch in his home's kitchen. It's 0:00:36.142 --> 0:00:40.542 been an exhausting four days and they're confident that successfully 0:00:40.582 --> 0:00:43.462 freed his wife of the demons that have possessed her body. 0:00:44.902 --> 0:00:49.022 Joan still hasn't stirred, though they've been waiting for her 0:00:49.062 --> 0:00:52.742 resurrection for days. I'm not sure why it's taking so long. 0:00:53.862 --> 0:00:57.342 They call the local Baptist minister for guidance, who swiftly 0:00:57.382 --> 0:01:02.142 calls the local doctor, who calls the police because the 0:01:02.182 --> 0:01:06.662 group is calmly eating sandwiches next to a horrifying scene, 0:01:07.582 --> 0:01:11.862 the decomposing remains of forty nine years old Joan Volmer, 0:01:12.822 --> 0:01:18.062 whose body clearly shows the horrific effects of starvation, abuse 0:01:18.982 --> 0:01:28.502 and torture. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime 0:01:28.582 --> 0:01:33.422 Conversations Amoma Mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 0:01:33.822 --> 0:01:36.662 by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:01:37.262 --> 0:01:40.222 Joan Volmer was the victim of a violent four day 0:01:40.302 --> 0:01:44.462 exorcism performed by her husband and three other members of 0:01:44.502 --> 0:01:48.902 her local religious community. They believed that ten demons were 0:01:48.942 --> 0:01:51.822 in control of her body and subjected her to horrific 0:01:52.182 --> 0:01:55.302 violent abuse in an attempt to rid her of them. 0:01:56.102 --> 0:01:59.422 If that's not shocking enough, the justice system's reaction to 0:01:59.462 --> 0:02:04.822 this gruesome crime is equally as baffling. Today, we've got 0:02:04.862 --> 0:02:07.742 a very different guest on to talk us through this story. 0:02:08.702 --> 0:02:13.142 Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play 0:02:13.182 --> 0:02:16.302 by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of what 0:02:16.502 --> 0:02:20.022 happened to Joan. We wanted to explore a few things 0:02:20.062 --> 0:02:23.862 in our chat with Margaret, the case itself and the 0:02:23.902 --> 0:02:29.782 complexities of turning real true crime stories into entertainment. It's 0:02:29.782 --> 0:02:33.302 certainly not a new phenomenon. Streaming services are full of 0:02:33.542 --> 0:02:38.222 based on a true story, fictionalized reenactments of awful crimes. 0:02:39.262 --> 0:02:42.742 Margaret had some interesting insights to share about how to 0:02:42.782 --> 0:02:50.862 tread that line respectfully and sensitively. Here's our chat, Margaret. 0:02:50.862 --> 0:02:53.022 This is a bit of a different one for us. 0:02:53.422 --> 0:02:57.702 You're the director of a play that's based on a true, 0:02:57.742 --> 0:03:01.622 horrible crime that happened in Australia in the nineties. It's 0:03:01.662 --> 0:03:04.662 called Furious Mattress, and I want to get this question 0:03:04.702 --> 0:03:08.142 out of the way nice and early before joining this project. 0:03:08.502 --> 0:03:11.862 Did you have to grapple with the fix of turning 0:03:12.702 --> 0:03:17.462 a real life tragedy into I mean, we'll call it entertainment, 0:03:17.542 --> 0:03:18.742 fictionalized entertainment. 0:03:19.902 --> 0:03:23.542 Yeah, it's a really important question, actually, and one that 0:03:23.582 --> 0:03:25.902 I haven't actually been able to talk about very much 0:03:25.982 --> 0:03:27.662 through the process, So I'm really. 0:03:27.422 --> 0:03:28.262 Excited to answer this. 0:03:28.422 --> 0:03:32.142 I think that when I first read the show, I 0:03:32.222 --> 0:03:36.902 was grappling a lot with the amount of physical violence, 0:03:37.022 --> 0:03:40.982 particularly obviously against women, that is presented in the production, 0:03:41.302 --> 0:03:43.662 and I thought a lot about it, because you know, 0:03:43.822 --> 0:03:47.382 putting a dead woman on stage at any point is 0:03:47.422 --> 0:03:50.742 always a difficult question, and putting intimate partner violence on 0:03:50.782 --> 0:03:53.982 stage is always something that we're talking about. But I 0:03:54.062 --> 0:03:57.102 think the show spoke to me so much, and this 0:03:57.222 --> 0:04:00.422 story spoke to me so much. It's said in the nineties, 0:04:00.982 --> 0:04:03.662 in the same way that the original case obviously happened 0:04:03.662 --> 0:04:07.142 in the nineties, but was written in twenty ten twenty 0:04:07.182 --> 0:04:09.582 eleven had its original production then and then hasn't been 0:04:09.622 --> 0:04:13.382 touched since. And I do a lot of activism work 0:04:13.582 --> 0:04:17.182 and have spent lots of time talking about intimate partner 0:04:17.222 --> 0:04:20.142 violence and sexual violence and things like that through my 0:04:20.302 --> 0:04:24.422 activism work, and I thought a lot about what representation. 0:04:23.942 --> 0:04:24.782 Means right now. 0:04:24.902 --> 0:04:27.902 And I think when it's in the hands of someone 0:04:28.262 --> 0:04:31.222 and a team that is really passionate about making sure 0:04:31.262 --> 0:04:35.502 that else who's the equivalent of the real Joan in 0:04:35.622 --> 0:04:39.862 the story is represented in a complex, detailed way, and 0:04:39.902 --> 0:04:42.622 that at the heart of it, you're telling a story 0:04:42.702 --> 0:04:44.782 about two people who love each other so much that 0:04:44.822 --> 0:04:46.382 they would do anything for each other. 0:04:46.822 --> 0:04:49.582 Because Ralph Slash. 0:04:49.262 --> 0:04:52.262 Pierce in the show, you know, loved his wife so 0:04:52.422 --> 0:04:56.742 much that he wanted to perform and exorcism on her 0:04:56.742 --> 0:04:59.982 because he wanted her to be the way that she 0:05:00.182 --> 0:05:02.782 used to be, you know, he wanted her to be safe. 0:05:03.262 --> 0:05:06.342 And that's the deep irony that sits inside of the play. 0:05:06.422 --> 0:05:10.782 And the real story is performing violence. How far would 0:05:10.822 --> 0:05:14.342 you go for the people that you love and what 0:05:14.382 --> 0:05:16.182 would you do to them? How much would you hurt 0:05:16.222 --> 0:05:18.822 them to try and save them? And I think that's 0:05:18.942 --> 0:05:21.622 ultimately what the story is about. So it was a 0:05:21.622 --> 0:05:24.942 difficult question. But I think that we've had millions of 0:05:24.942 --> 0:05:27.502 consultants and all sorts of things on this project to 0:05:27.662 --> 0:05:29.782 make sure that we're doing it properly, we're doing it safely, 0:05:29.942 --> 0:05:32.822 and that we're telling the story in the right way. 0:05:33.342 --> 0:05:35.582 And so yeah, I feel good about it. I guess 0:05:35.662 --> 0:05:37.462 is the short's the short answer of the question. 0:05:37.942 --> 0:05:42.262 I've also dabbled in the reviews, yes, and I've seen 0:05:42.302 --> 0:05:47.262 the play described as tragic obviously but also comedic, which 0:05:47.342 --> 0:05:51.302 made me pause because how do you do that sensitively? 0:05:51.502 --> 0:05:54.942 Yeah, mel who's the play Rights written by Melissa Eves, 0:05:55.742 --> 0:06:01.822 has written this extraordinary piece of work that is deeply 0:06:01.982 --> 0:06:06.302 and horribly funny and has obviously taken liberties outside of 0:06:06.342 --> 0:06:09.302 the real case. There's a lot more sort of supernatural 0:06:09.902 --> 0:06:13.542 events inside of the show then I imagine were in 0:06:13.822 --> 0:06:17.302 the real situation. And I think that's the beautiful thing 0:06:17.342 --> 0:06:19.822 about theater and about art is that Mel's telling a 0:06:19.862 --> 0:06:22.702 story about love, and so she's taken Liberty's inside of 0:06:22.702 --> 0:06:25.742 that to do that, And there are some truly hilarious bits. 0:06:25.782 --> 0:06:26.662 We were just doing a bit. 0:06:26.982 --> 0:06:29.182 I've just literally walked away from the theater to come 0:06:29.222 --> 0:06:31.982 here today and we're just doing a bit that is 0:06:32.102 --> 0:06:35.942 so so funny, and the tragedy inside of the show 0:06:36.182 --> 0:06:40.022 is that Else and Pierce, their relationship is so strong 0:06:40.062 --> 0:06:43.302 and so beautiful, and that they are funny together and 0:06:43.342 --> 0:06:46.022 they do have fun together, and that's why when what 0:06:46.182 --> 0:06:49.422 happens unfolds, it's so heartbreaking, because there is a real 0:06:49.502 --> 0:06:52.662 relationship and love there, and I think sometimes you can't 0:06:52.702 --> 0:06:55.022 really have the darkness in the way that this play 0:06:55.102 --> 0:06:57.582 asks for darkness in droves. 0:06:57.582 --> 0:06:59.462 Without having that humor and that light. 0:06:59.662 --> 0:07:02.502 Lots of people really do believe in deliverance and exorcism 0:07:02.542 --> 0:07:05.902 in the real world, as I've learned through doing this process, 0:07:06.662 --> 0:07:10.982 but they also the sort of courage of conviction or 0:07:11.142 --> 0:07:16.502 deep conviction inside of believing in this process is can 0:07:16.542 --> 0:07:20.062 be very funny because they sort of grab on to 0:07:20.382 --> 0:07:24.502 small moments like a move of an eyebrow or a 0:07:24.542 --> 0:07:27.702 nodding of a head and turn it into huge moments 0:07:27.702 --> 0:07:28.822 of like that's a demon. 0:07:28.902 --> 0:07:30.622 That's a demon. That's a demon, And. 0:07:31.222 --> 0:07:34.502 Inevitably that's kind of hilarious because from the outside we're 0:07:34.542 --> 0:07:36.822 sitting there being like, well, that's obviously not a demon. 0:07:37.022 --> 0:07:40.222 Like what, but so, yeah, that's part of where the 0:07:40.302 --> 0:07:40.982 humor comes from. 0:07:41.022 --> 0:07:44.942 I think, have you had any tension from anyone involved 0:07:44.982 --> 0:07:47.382 in the real life story, any feedback? 0:07:48.142 --> 0:07:51.262 I think that the original production did have tension, which 0:07:51.302 --> 0:07:54.422 was at the Malt House in Melbourne in twenty and eleven, 0:07:54.462 --> 0:07:58.662 I believe, but I know we haven't heard anything. But 0:07:58.742 --> 0:08:00.822 I guess, you know, part of I think when you're 0:08:00.862 --> 0:08:04.502 telling stories that matter is that you should end up 0:08:04.582 --> 0:08:08.662 with conflict sometimes because if we just tell stories that 0:08:08.822 --> 0:08:12.862 are safe, then we won't come into conflict. But you know, 0:08:12.982 --> 0:08:16.182 talking about something that is so relevant right now, the 0:08:16.222 --> 0:08:19.902 death of that young girl very recently in the news 0:08:20.502 --> 0:08:25.062 at the hands of ultra religious parents and ultra religious 0:08:25.102 --> 0:08:28.702 group is so relevant to this case, and you sort 0:08:28.742 --> 0:08:31.542 of see like how over time, you know, maybe our 0:08:31.542 --> 0:08:33.702 perspectives on that have changed a lot, given that in 0:08:33.742 --> 0:08:37.982 this original case with Joan Volma, they got away with it, 0:08:38.022 --> 0:08:42.062 they weren't sentenced in any way, and like that speaks 0:08:42.102 --> 0:08:44.902 so much to where Australia was in the nineties with 0:08:45.062 --> 0:08:48.262 women and domestic violence, and you know how we valued 0:08:48.302 --> 0:08:52.102 women's lives. And so yeah, anyway, no no contact from 0:08:52.742 --> 0:08:55.382 anyone involved in the original story. I'm sure they wish 0:08:55.462 --> 0:08:57.542 to put it behind them themselves. 0:08:58.502 --> 0:09:00.022 I am going to get to the real story. But 0:09:00.302 --> 0:09:05.702 I am curious to hear your thoughts because obviously, this 0:09:05.782 --> 0:09:07.862 play is not the first time that based on a 0:09:07.862 --> 0:09:11.942 real story has been turned into art. We see it 0:09:12.062 --> 0:09:15.742 every day on Netflix on all the streaming services. Do 0:09:15.822 --> 0:09:19.502 you think it can be taken too far? I'm thinking 0:09:19.742 --> 0:09:22.462 automatically about the Menendez Brothers that was turned into a 0:09:22.502 --> 0:09:25.582 fictionalized based on a real so it's done over and 0:09:25.622 --> 0:09:27.462 over again. What are your thoughts on the way we 0:09:27.542 --> 0:09:27.822 do it. 0:09:28.742 --> 0:09:32.862 I think that I used to be really obsessed with 0:09:33.062 --> 0:09:36.502 true crime like adaptations, and I think that I moved 0:09:36.542 --> 0:09:38.422 away from it partially because you know, I was sort 0:09:38.422 --> 0:09:41.622 of like not able to sleep at night. But I 0:09:41.662 --> 0:09:45.462 think that my take on it is partly that it 0:09:45.542 --> 0:09:49.062 really depends on if there's a point to telling the story, 0:09:49.622 --> 0:09:52.982 you know. I think that there's some really interesting content 0:09:53.062 --> 0:09:56.862 being made, particularly by the streamers around like how do 0:09:56.902 --> 0:10:01.542 we talk about, you know, violence in sort of the 0:10:01.702 --> 0:10:03.902 different ways that it manifests. What's coming to my mind 0:10:03.942 --> 0:10:06.862 right now is Baby Reindeer, which obviously has just been 0:10:06.902 --> 0:10:10.582 like a huge success, and that story is so interesting 0:10:10.622 --> 0:10:14.582 because lots of those crimes that that character, the woman, 0:10:15.102 --> 0:10:19.622 she sort of steps over lines that are would never 0:10:19.662 --> 0:10:22.622 have been considered crimes ten fifteen years ago, right, like 0:10:22.702 --> 0:10:25.262 sending lots and lots of text and inundating and but 0:10:25.302 --> 0:10:27.302 then of course you get into the stalking and stuff. 0:10:27.502 --> 0:10:30.262 But I think there's a real point to talking about 0:10:30.462 --> 0:10:33.422 what online violence means and what those sorts of things mean. 0:10:33.462 --> 0:10:36.462 And I think similarly with this story, you know, there's 0:10:36.622 --> 0:10:41.822 kind of very unfortunately a never ending need to continue 0:10:41.822 --> 0:10:44.542 to talk about intimate partner violence and violence against women 0:10:45.182 --> 0:10:51.222 and how different community groups use ultra strong beliefs, like 0:10:51.262 --> 0:10:54.982 it's not just religious groups but different sort of minority 0:10:55.022 --> 0:10:59.262 groups in various forms use you know, belief systems and 0:10:59.582 --> 0:11:02.862 those sorts of things to oppress women in spaces and 0:11:03.542 --> 0:11:08.422 justify violence against them. Is inevitably important to continue to 0:11:08.462 --> 0:11:10.062 talk about, at least here. 0:11:09.902 --> 0:11:12.342 In Australia and you know, pretty much everywhere in the world. 0:11:12.862 --> 0:11:15.142 So I think that's my take on it is that 0:11:15.182 --> 0:11:17.622 if it's got a point, and like that doesn't mean 0:11:17.622 --> 0:11:19.342 that it's like hitting you over the head with the point, 0:11:19.342 --> 0:11:22.462 but if it's sort of there's a reason for continuing 0:11:22.462 --> 0:11:26.302 to tell these stories, then I think that's important. Sometimes 0:11:26.302 --> 0:11:28.782 I think that we are taking it sort of into 0:11:28.822 --> 0:11:30.822 a place where it's sort of like a sick pleasure, 0:11:31.782 --> 0:11:34.382 and I do think that that is possibly wrong, because 0:11:34.422 --> 0:11:39.342 you're sort of milking people's genuine suffering through like murder 0:11:39.382 --> 0:11:42.862 and the serial killer obsession that we sort of do have, 0:11:43.102 --> 0:11:46.182 you know, the Ted Bundy's, Jeffrey Dahmer's sort of stories. 0:11:46.742 --> 0:11:49.902 We sort of are milking other people's suffering to create 0:11:50.062 --> 0:11:54.022 what I consider to be quite light entertainment. Now, whereas 0:11:54.102 --> 0:11:56.502 you know, I think the great thing about theater I 0:11:56.502 --> 0:11:58.622 think as an art form is that, you know, usually 0:11:59.102 --> 0:12:01.622 usually don't tell stories unless they really matter, because it's 0:12:01.662 --> 0:12:05.302 so hard to do theater. And so I think that 0:12:05.462 --> 0:12:08.062 in this case it's it definitely feels justified. 0:12:08.462 --> 0:12:12.022 Let's tell the real story. Let's tell Joe's Yeah, I 0:12:12.062 --> 0:12:16.062 want you to transport listeners back to Antwerp in Victoria 0:12:16.182 --> 0:12:19.902 in nineteen ninety three. What is that part of the 0:12:19.982 --> 0:12:22.062 country like and what's that community like? 0:12:23.222 --> 0:12:27.462 Really really desolate, I think, is how I would describe it. 0:12:27.622 --> 0:12:31.062 I think at the time the population of the town 0:12:31.222 --> 0:12:34.862 was sixty three people, just tiny it's tiny, like if 0:12:34.942 --> 0:12:37.182 you work in an office block, probably the people on 0:12:37.222 --> 0:12:40.582 your floor or on the two floors above you, is 0:12:40.622 --> 0:12:43.782 that many people that would have been your whole town. 0:12:44.022 --> 0:12:47.142 And the really interesting thing about the real house where 0:12:47.142 --> 0:12:50.822 the events take place is that it's so far away 0:12:50.902 --> 0:12:54.062 from anything else. And you know, there's that classic horror 0:12:54.142 --> 0:12:56.222 you know, no one can hear you scream kind of thing, 0:12:56.702 --> 0:12:59.702 which I think is very real and present in this 0:12:59.862 --> 0:13:04.782 story of Joan, is that she was completely isolated. There's 0:13:04.982 --> 0:13:08.262 no running away from this situation. There's no running to 0:13:08.302 --> 0:13:11.942 the next houseover and and saying, please help me, I'm 0:13:11.942 --> 0:13:16.902 in trouble. The next houseover is ages away, you know, 0:13:17.022 --> 0:13:20.022 acres and acres away from you know, and so on 0:13:20.062 --> 0:13:23.382 and so forth. So there's very little in the town. 0:13:23.662 --> 0:13:25.982 You have to go the next town over in order 0:13:26.022 --> 0:13:29.662 to get to the sort of mainstream Christian church that's there. 0:13:30.382 --> 0:13:33.942 So really I think a lot about sound and about 0:13:33.982 --> 0:13:37.142 silence when I think about this show and about this story, 0:13:37.542 --> 0:13:42.742 because so much time would be passing where all you 0:13:42.782 --> 0:13:46.382 could hear was the sound of nature and nothing else 0:13:46.462 --> 0:13:49.422 was happening around you, and so on the farm that 0:13:49.582 --> 0:13:51.942 Joan and Ralph lived on they were pig farmers, so 0:13:52.142 --> 0:13:53.422 you know, the pigs and things. 0:13:53.862 --> 0:13:57.862 So they were pig farmers or Ralph was a pig farmer. Yes, 0:13:58.022 --> 0:14:01.542 And they were a kind of fairly new relationship, weren't they. 0:14:01.542 --> 0:14:03.422 There's like a second marriage for both of them. 0:14:03.582 --> 0:14:05.022 Yea, their story, that's true. 0:14:05.142 --> 0:14:09.662 So they married when Joan was forty four and Ralph 0:14:09.702 --> 0:14:13.422 was nine, so late in life, which I think is 0:14:13.462 --> 0:14:17.542 really interesting, and he has in previous interviews described it 0:14:17.582 --> 0:14:20.142 as like meeting her was like a miracle, you know, 0:14:20.182 --> 0:14:22.422 like the second chance for him, which I think is 0:14:22.502 --> 0:14:28.062 so beautiful and endearing. He had a previous marriage and 0:14:28.102 --> 0:14:31.822 had a child in that marriage. Joan didn't have children, 0:14:32.862 --> 0:14:37.302 had never married, not sure about her relationship history, but 0:14:37.462 --> 0:14:40.062 had had sort of trouble holding down a job and 0:14:40.102 --> 0:14:43.582 things like that, and he had gone through lots of 0:14:43.622 --> 0:14:47.302 different career paths and was quite entrepreneurial. And then eventually 0:14:47.302 --> 0:14:49.622 sort of they im packed up their lives and moved 0:14:49.662 --> 0:14:54.222 to Antwerp together because there was sort of this sort 0:14:54.262 --> 0:14:57.062 of boom in like pig farming, I think. 0:14:56.942 --> 0:14:59.422 And interesting, really interesting. Yeah. 0:14:59.502 --> 0:15:02.262 I would know absolutely nothing about that, being a city 0:15:02.382 --> 0:15:06.222 rat myself. Yeah, So I think all of That is 0:15:06.302 --> 0:15:09.782 really interesting context because you know, you're sort of dipping 0:15:09.822 --> 0:15:12.862 out of the honeymoon phase of a marriage, right, like, 0:15:12.942 --> 0:15:15.942 you know, four or five years in by the time. 0:15:15.702 --> 0:15:17.542 That they everything happened. 0:15:17.582 --> 0:15:18.942 Everything happens. 0:15:19.742 --> 0:15:23.942 Do we know anything about their relationship? You speak about 0:15:23.942 --> 0:15:26.422 it quite fondly. So there was no abuse, there was 0:15:26.462 --> 0:15:28.622 no kind of strains that we know of. 0:15:28.782 --> 0:15:31.902 It's difficult, I guess to tell, because one of the 0:15:31.902 --> 0:15:35.102 big problems with the case is obviously that all of 0:15:35.142 --> 0:15:39.662 the evidence that's gathered mostly is gathered from him and 0:15:39.702 --> 0:15:42.942 his perspective and the people who are defending themselves in 0:15:42.982 --> 0:15:46.142 this case, like they talk about the relationship, but of 0:15:46.182 --> 0:15:49.502 course Joan's voice is missing in that right. Joan's family 0:15:50.302 --> 0:15:52.622 denied some of the claims that he had made about 0:15:52.742 --> 0:15:55.582 them because there was a claim at one point that 0:15:56.062 --> 0:16:00.022 Joan had been sexually abused as a child, and the 0:16:00.062 --> 0:16:04.182 family denied that, of course, I guess, but yeah, I 0:16:04.182 --> 0:16:07.902 think probably the most interesting sort of key point is 0:16:07.942 --> 0:16:14.222 that two two years prior to the events of the 0:16:14.462 --> 0:16:19.022 play slash the real exorcism, Joan had been admitted into 0:16:19.062 --> 0:16:24.742 a institution called Lakeside, and the doctors at that institution 0:16:25.022 --> 0:16:27.942 had said that it was quite likely that Joan was 0:16:27.942 --> 0:16:31.022 suffering from a form of schizophrenia. And I think that's 0:16:31.102 --> 0:16:34.702 really important to all of the rest of the story, 0:16:34.862 --> 0:16:38.462 is that that part mental health kind of being less 0:16:38.502 --> 0:16:40.862 of a topic than it obviously is in twenty twenty five, 0:16:41.302 --> 0:16:45.702 and our understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia being much 0:16:45.782 --> 0:16:51.422 less clear back then. But she had been to some 0:16:51.462 --> 0:16:55.302 extent diagnosed and given medication that she then came off. 0:16:55.742 --> 0:16:58.702 And I think that's really important setting for the events 0:16:58.702 --> 0:16:59.822 of the story. 0:16:59.942 --> 0:17:03.142 So in January nineteen ninety three, what kind of behavior 0:17:03.182 --> 0:17:05.622 did Rolf say he was starting to notice in Joan? 0:17:06.182 --> 0:17:09.142 So he said that he was starting to notice she 0:17:09.342 --> 0:17:16.022 was lurching and dancing outside, sometimes naked, which disturbed him greatly. 0:17:16.702 --> 0:17:19.462 He claimed that she was quote this is actual quote 0:17:19.622 --> 0:17:22.702 acting like a prostitute, which he said at the trial, 0:17:23.222 --> 0:17:25.662 and that she took on the physical form of a 0:17:25.742 --> 0:17:30.462 pig and a dog and the personality of a sheep shearer, 0:17:31.102 --> 0:17:33.822 and that she was swearing loudly. She would tear off 0:17:33.822 --> 0:17:37.942 her clothes and run through the fields. So I think 0:17:37.982 --> 0:17:42.142 it's important sometimes on podcasts about I've listened to absolutely 0:17:42.182 --> 0:17:44.262 everything that there is to listen to about this case, 0:17:44.622 --> 0:17:48.702 and sometimes I do think that there's like a immediately 0:17:48.742 --> 0:17:54.942 a characterization of Ralph as like a quite like an abusive, 0:17:55.022 --> 0:18:00.582 violent man. And I think that actually it's really important 0:18:00.582 --> 0:18:02.902 to remember that he did all of this because he 0:18:02.982 --> 0:18:05.862 loved her, and that like it's hard for us, I think, 0:18:05.902 --> 0:18:10.142 like modern audiences and modern women to like wrap their 0:18:10.142 --> 0:18:14.342 heads around how that's possible. But sometimes I think love 0:18:14.422 --> 0:18:17.462 is like so intense that you do those things. And 0:18:17.942 --> 0:18:20.302 so I do think that he was probably actually quite 0:18:20.342 --> 0:18:23.902 scared of her behavior and like physically felt threatened. And 0:18:23.942 --> 0:18:27.302 so I think this that's quite an interesting sort of 0:18:27.342 --> 0:18:30.982 back drop as well, that this kind of behavior which 0:18:31.102 --> 0:18:33.702 obviously I think to like, it's quite obvious that if 0:18:33.782 --> 0:18:36.542 she'd come off her meds that she'd been given, you 0:18:36.622 --> 0:18:38.622 know that it was just a resurgence in the behavior 0:18:38.662 --> 0:18:40.142 as a result of coming off the meds. 0:18:40.142 --> 0:18:42.462 To me, that sounds like a clear ment. 0:18:42.582 --> 0:18:43.462 Totally obvious. 0:18:43.542 --> 0:18:46.222 Yeah, totally obvious, And I completely agree with that. But 0:18:46.262 --> 0:18:49.462 I also think that like him turning to God in 0:18:49.502 --> 0:18:54.142 this moment because he was extremely devout and turns to well, 0:18:54.142 --> 0:18:56.622 what can God do for me in this moment? And 0:18:56.982 --> 0:19:01.542 the solution that's presented to him by his fellow charismatic 0:19:01.582 --> 0:19:04.302 Christians is like exoricism and deliverance. 0:19:05.182 --> 0:19:07.342 Can we talk about the people he turns to for help, 0:19:07.422 --> 0:19:12.742 because they actually had been excommunicated from their church, right, 0:19:12.902 --> 0:19:17.462 so we've got lots of play here. But they were 0:19:17.462 --> 0:19:22.622 giving him very skewed advice. What was their kind of story? 0:19:22.782 --> 0:19:24.342 Why had they been excommunicated? 0:19:24.702 --> 0:19:28.622 So Leanne Reichenbach, who was their neighbor, I don't know 0:19:28.622 --> 0:19:31.382 if she was a direct neighbor or you know, somewhere 0:19:31.382 --> 0:19:34.542 in the town, but lived in Antwerp as well. They 0:19:34.582 --> 0:19:38.582 had a Bible study group, her and her husband, and 0:19:39.342 --> 0:19:41.942 they had actually started this group yet, as you say, 0:19:42.022 --> 0:19:47.422 after being excommunicated, and she had been excommunicated for, which 0:19:47.502 --> 0:19:49.942 is really interesting and I sort of can't quite wrap 0:19:49.982 --> 0:19:52.782 my head around what Ralph was thinking at this moment, 0:19:53.502 --> 0:19:56.582 is that she had been excommunicated from the church for 0:19:57.062 --> 0:20:01.142 trying to exercise too many people and trying to perform 0:20:01.142 --> 0:20:06.022 exorcisms without enough evidence. Because it's really important to note 0:20:06.622 --> 0:20:09.982 that the Catholic Church in particular has really really strict 0:20:10.062 --> 0:20:12.622 rules whether or not a person is allowed to have 0:20:12.702 --> 0:20:15.342 an exorcism performed on them. Or not, and it's a 0:20:15.382 --> 0:20:19.582 really like clear list of criteria. Then it has to 0:20:19.622 --> 0:20:23.022 go all the way up to the highest levels of 0:20:23.062 --> 0:20:25.222 the church before it gets approved and comes back. 0:20:25.502 --> 0:20:26.622 So it is still something we do. 0:20:26.702 --> 0:20:27.662 It's still church. 0:20:27.862 --> 0:20:31.422 Yeah, okay, I'm not religious, so this is news to me. 0:20:31.542 --> 0:20:33.542 Oh yeah, well news to you is that it is 0:20:33.622 --> 0:20:36.182 absolutely something that people are still doing, both inside and 0:20:36.222 --> 0:20:40.102 outside of the church. And yes, so anyway, so Leanne 0:20:40.102 --> 0:20:43.942 had tried too many times with very little evidence, to 0:20:43.982 --> 0:20:48.262 perform exorisms on people and had encouraged people to have 0:20:48.302 --> 0:20:52.222 exorcisms when it just like clearly wasn't necessary because. 0:20:51.942 --> 0:20:55.342 You know, with the church, the official church procedure. 0:20:54.862 --> 0:20:56.822 You have to see a psychiatrist, you have to see 0:20:56.862 --> 0:20:59.902 a doctor, you have to see all these people. 0:20:59.622 --> 0:21:00.822 Who can testify it. 0:21:00.862 --> 0:21:05.902 No, no, this is actually something other than medical. So 0:21:05.982 --> 0:21:10.942 she is quite an interesting character and is represented inside 0:21:10.942 --> 0:21:11.902 of our show as well. 0:21:12.382 --> 0:21:13.382 So he turns to. 0:21:13.382 --> 0:21:17.862 Leanne first, and then Leanne starts to bring in all 0:21:17.902 --> 0:21:21.462 these other people, which is really like the rest of 0:21:21.502 --> 0:21:25.702 these people are so interesting and like you just sort 0:21:25.742 --> 0:21:28.542 of can't quite wrap your heads around what must. 0:21:28.422 --> 0:21:32.942 Have been going on inside of this house for these four. 0:21:32.822 --> 0:21:39.182 Days you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath. 0:21:39.622 --> 0:21:43.662 I'm speaking with Margaret Thanos, director of Furious Mattress, a 0:21:43.702 --> 0:21:46.902 play by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of 0:21:46.942 --> 0:21:50.542 a four day exorcism in Victoria, Australia. Up next to 0:21:50.622 --> 0:21:54.222 Margaret tells us how the exorcism started and how Joan 0:21:54.342 --> 0:21:59.102 was identified as having multiple demons within her. I want 0:21:59.142 --> 0:22:02.662 to bring in the people as because it's a four 0:22:02.782 --> 0:22:06.342 day kind of yees series of events we're talking about. Yes, 0:22:06.542 --> 0:22:10.982 it starts, it escalates, So how does it start? What 0:22:11.622 --> 0:22:13.982 is the starting point? What does she suggest to Rolf 0:22:14.062 --> 0:22:15.222 that he do so? 0:22:15.342 --> 0:22:19.462 At first, Rolf attempts to get rid of the demons 0:22:19.502 --> 0:22:21.302 on his own by locking. 0:22:22.422 --> 0:22:24.622 Joan in the basement and he leaves her. 0:22:24.622 --> 0:22:29.862 There, and obviously she screams all through the night, and 0:22:30.862 --> 0:22:33.422 so later he ties her to the bed in the room, 0:22:33.982 --> 0:22:38.062 leaves her there. Again, she's still screaming. It's obviously not working. 0:22:38.302 --> 0:22:44.662 That's when he calls Leanne and that's when this four 0:22:44.742 --> 0:22:50.662 day process begins, and so they have intense prayer sessions and. 0:22:52.262 --> 0:22:54.542 Joan obviously starts to struggle and. 0:22:54.622 --> 0:22:56.182 Because they're not feeding her, they're. 0:22:55.982 --> 0:22:58.582 Not feeding her, okay, they're denying her water, which I think, 0:22:58.622 --> 0:23:01.262 you know obviously is you know, you can't quite understand 0:23:01.342 --> 0:23:03.342 why humans do these sorts of things to each other 0:23:03.342 --> 0:23:05.422 because it sort of seems so obvious that you would 0:23:05.422 --> 0:23:08.262 physically be harming them. But there are so many exorcism 0:23:08.262 --> 0:23:11.742 stories very similar to this, where young women in particular 0:23:11.862 --> 0:23:15.102 are killed this way where you know they've made it. 0:23:15.142 --> 0:23:18.102 They emaciated and then they starved to death through processes 0:23:18.142 --> 0:23:18.422 like this. 0:23:18.462 --> 0:23:18.942 Horrific. 0:23:18.942 --> 0:23:19.582 It's horrific. 0:23:19.622 --> 0:23:23.542 It's absolutely all they And actually Joan didn't die of starvation, 0:23:23.662 --> 0:23:25.942