1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,662 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,702 --> 00:00:25,342 Speaker 1: recorded on It's February nineteen ninety three in outback Victoria 4 00:00:26,102 --> 00:00:28,942 Speaker 1: and the tiny town of Antwerp is sweltering through a 5 00:00:29,022 --> 00:00:32,662 Speaker 1: forty degree day. Ralph Volmer and some of his neighbors 6 00:00:32,702 --> 00:00:36,102 Speaker 1: are sitting down for lunch in his home's kitchen. It's 7 00:00:36,142 --> 00:00:40,542 Speaker 1: been an exhausting four days and they're confident that successfully 8 00:00:40,582 --> 00:00:43,462 Speaker 1: freed his wife of the demons that have possessed her body. 9 00:00:44,902 --> 00:00:49,022 Speaker 1: Joan still hasn't stirred, though they've been waiting for her 10 00:00:49,062 --> 00:00:52,742 Speaker 1: resurrection for days. I'm not sure why it's taking so long. 11 00:00:53,862 --> 00:00:57,342 Speaker 1: They call the local Baptist minister for guidance, who swiftly 12 00:00:57,382 --> 00:01:02,142 Speaker 1: calls the local doctor, who calls the police because the 13 00:01:02,182 --> 00:01:06,662 Speaker 1: group is calmly eating sandwiches next to a horrifying scene, 14 00:01:07,582 --> 00:01:11,862 Speaker 1: the decomposing remains of forty nine years old Joan Volmer, 15 00:01:12,822 --> 00:01:18,062 Speaker 1: whose body clearly shows the horrific effects of starvation, abuse 16 00:01:18,982 --> 00:01:28,502 Speaker 1: and torture. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime 17 00:01:28,582 --> 00:01:33,422 Speaker 1: Conversations Amoma Mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 18 00:01:33,822 --> 00:01:36,662 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 19 00:01:37,262 --> 00:01:40,222 Speaker 1: Joan Volmer was the victim of a violent four day 20 00:01:40,302 --> 00:01:44,462 Speaker 1: exorcism performed by her husband and three other members of 21 00:01:44,502 --> 00:01:48,902 Speaker 1: her local religious community. They believed that ten demons were 22 00:01:48,942 --> 00:01:51,822 Speaker 1: in control of her body and subjected her to horrific 23 00:01:52,182 --> 00:01:55,302 Speaker 1: violent abuse in an attempt to rid her of them. 24 00:01:56,102 --> 00:01:59,422 Speaker 1: If that's not shocking enough, the justice system's reaction to 25 00:01:59,462 --> 00:02:04,822 Speaker 1: this gruesome crime is equally as baffling. Today, we've got 26 00:02:04,862 --> 00:02:07,742 Speaker 1: a very different guest on to talk us through this story. 27 00:02:08,702 --> 00:02:13,142 Speaker 1: Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play 28 00:02:13,182 --> 00:02:16,302 Speaker 1: by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of what 29 00:02:16,502 --> 00:02:20,022 Speaker 1: happened to Joan. We wanted to explore a few things 30 00:02:20,062 --> 00:02:23,862 Speaker 1: in our chat with Margaret, the case itself and the 31 00:02:23,902 --> 00:02:29,782 Speaker 1: complexities of turning real true crime stories into entertainment. It's 32 00:02:29,782 --> 00:02:33,302 Speaker 1: certainly not a new phenomenon. Streaming services are full of 33 00:02:33,542 --> 00:02:38,222 Speaker 1: based on a true story, fictionalized reenactments of awful crimes. 34 00:02:39,262 --> 00:02:42,742 Speaker 1: Margaret had some interesting insights to share about how to 35 00:02:42,782 --> 00:02:50,862 Speaker 1: tread that line respectfully and sensitively. Here's our chat, Margaret. 36 00:02:50,862 --> 00:02:53,022 Speaker 1: This is a bit of a different one for us. 37 00:02:53,422 --> 00:02:57,702 Speaker 1: You're the director of a play that's based on a true, 38 00:02:57,742 --> 00:03:01,622 Speaker 1: horrible crime that happened in Australia in the nineties. It's 39 00:03:01,662 --> 00:03:04,662 Speaker 1: called Furious Mattress, and I want to get this question 40 00:03:04,702 --> 00:03:08,142 Speaker 1: out of the way nice and early before joining this project. 41 00:03:08,502 --> 00:03:11,862 Speaker 1: Did you have to grapple with the fix of turning 42 00:03:12,702 --> 00:03:17,462 Speaker 1: a real life tragedy into I mean, we'll call it entertainment, 43 00:03:17,542 --> 00:03:18,742 Speaker 1: fictionalized entertainment. 44 00:03:19,902 --> 00:03:23,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really important question, actually, and one that 45 00:03:23,582 --> 00:03:25,902 Speaker 2: I haven't actually been able to talk about very much 46 00:03:25,982 --> 00:03:27,662 Speaker 2: through the process, So I'm really. 47 00:03:27,422 --> 00:03:28,262 Speaker 3: Excited to answer this. 48 00:03:28,422 --> 00:03:32,142 Speaker 2: I think that when I first read the show, I 49 00:03:32,222 --> 00:03:36,902 Speaker 2: was grappling a lot with the amount of physical violence, 50 00:03:37,022 --> 00:03:40,982 Speaker 2: particularly obviously against women, that is presented in the production, 51 00:03:41,302 --> 00:03:43,662 Speaker 2: and I thought a lot about it, because you know, 52 00:03:43,822 --> 00:03:47,382 Speaker 2: putting a dead woman on stage at any point is 53 00:03:47,422 --> 00:03:50,742 Speaker 2: always a difficult question, and putting intimate partner violence on 54 00:03:50,782 --> 00:03:53,982 Speaker 2: stage is always something that we're talking about. But I 55 00:03:54,062 --> 00:03:57,102 Speaker 2: think the show spoke to me so much, and this 56 00:03:57,222 --> 00:04:00,422 Speaker 2: story spoke to me so much. It's said in the nineties, 57 00:04:00,982 --> 00:04:03,662 Speaker 2: in the same way that the original case obviously happened 58 00:04:03,662 --> 00:04:07,142 Speaker 2: in the nineties, but was written in twenty ten twenty 59 00:04:07,182 --> 00:04:09,582 Speaker 2: eleven had its original production then and then hasn't been 60 00:04:09,622 --> 00:04:13,382 Speaker 2: touched since. And I do a lot of activism work 61 00:04:13,582 --> 00:04:17,182 Speaker 2: and have spent lots of time talking about intimate partner 62 00:04:17,222 --> 00:04:20,142 Speaker 2: violence and sexual violence and things like that through my 63 00:04:20,302 --> 00:04:24,422 Speaker 2: activism work, and I thought a lot about what representation. 64 00:04:23,942 --> 00:04:24,782 Speaker 3: Means right now. 65 00:04:24,902 --> 00:04:27,902 Speaker 2: And I think when it's in the hands of someone 66 00:04:28,262 --> 00:04:31,222 Speaker 2: and a team that is really passionate about making sure 67 00:04:31,262 --> 00:04:35,502 Speaker 2: that else who's the equivalent of the real Joan in 68 00:04:35,622 --> 00:04:39,862 Speaker 2: the story is represented in a complex, detailed way, and 69 00:04:39,902 --> 00:04:42,622 Speaker 2: that at the heart of it, you're telling a story 70 00:04:42,702 --> 00:04:44,782 Speaker 2: about two people who love each other so much that 71 00:04:44,822 --> 00:04:46,382 Speaker 2: they would do anything for each other. 72 00:04:46,822 --> 00:04:49,582 Speaker 3: Because Ralph Slash. 73 00:04:49,262 --> 00:04:52,262 Speaker 2: Pierce in the show, you know, loved his wife so 74 00:04:52,422 --> 00:04:56,742 Speaker 2: much that he wanted to perform and exorcism on her 75 00:04:56,742 --> 00:04:59,982 Speaker 2: because he wanted her to be the way that she 76 00:05:00,182 --> 00:05:02,782 Speaker 2: used to be, you know, he wanted her to be safe. 77 00:05:03,262 --> 00:05:06,342 Speaker 2: And that's the deep irony that sits inside of the play. 78 00:05:06,422 --> 00:05:10,782 Speaker 2: And the real story is performing violence. How far would 79 00:05:10,822 --> 00:05:14,342 Speaker 2: you go for the people that you love and what 80 00:05:14,382 --> 00:05:16,182 Speaker 2: would you do to them? How much would you hurt 81 00:05:16,222 --> 00:05:18,822 Speaker 2: them to try and save them? And I think that's 82 00:05:18,942 --> 00:05:21,622 Speaker 2: ultimately what the story is about. So it was a 83 00:05:21,622 --> 00:05:24,942 Speaker 2: difficult question. But I think that we've had millions of 84 00:05:24,942 --> 00:05:27,502 Speaker 2: consultants and all sorts of things on this project to 85 00:05:27,662 --> 00:05:29,782 Speaker 2: make sure that we're doing it properly, we're doing it safely, 86 00:05:29,942 --> 00:05:32,822 Speaker 2: and that we're telling the story in the right way. 87 00:05:33,342 --> 00:05:35,582 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I feel good about it. I guess 88 00:05:35,662 --> 00:05:37,462 Speaker 2: is the short's the short answer of the question. 89 00:05:37,942 --> 00:05:42,262 Speaker 1: I've also dabbled in the reviews, yes, and I've seen 90 00:05:42,302 --> 00:05:47,262 Speaker 1: the play described as tragic obviously but also comedic, which 91 00:05:47,342 --> 00:05:51,302 Speaker 1: made me pause because how do you do that sensitively? 92 00:05:51,502 --> 00:05:54,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, mel who's the play Rights written by Melissa Eves, 93 00:05:55,742 --> 00:06:01,822 Speaker 2: has written this extraordinary piece of work that is deeply 94 00:06:01,982 --> 00:06:06,302 Speaker 2: and horribly funny and has obviously taken liberties outside of 95 00:06:06,342 --> 00:06:09,302 Speaker 2: the real case. There's a lot more sort of supernatural 96 00:06:09,902 --> 00:06:13,542 Speaker 2: events inside of the show then I imagine were in 97 00:06:13,822 --> 00:06:17,302 Speaker 2: the real situation. And I think that's the beautiful thing 98 00:06:17,342 --> 00:06:19,822 Speaker 2: about theater and about art is that Mel's telling a 99 00:06:19,862 --> 00:06:22,702 Speaker 2: story about love, and so she's taken Liberty's inside of 100 00:06:22,702 --> 00:06:25,742 Speaker 2: that to do that, And there are some truly hilarious bits. 101 00:06:25,782 --> 00:06:26,662 Speaker 3: We were just doing a bit. 102 00:06:26,982 --> 00:06:29,182 Speaker 2: I've just literally walked away from the theater to come 103 00:06:29,222 --> 00:06:31,982 Speaker 2: here today and we're just doing a bit that is 104 00:06:32,102 --> 00:06:35,942 Speaker 2: so so funny, and the tragedy inside of the show 105 00:06:36,182 --> 00:06:40,022 Speaker 2: is that Else and Pierce, their relationship is so strong 106 00:06:40,062 --> 00:06:43,302 Speaker 2: and so beautiful, and that they are funny together and 107 00:06:43,342 --> 00:06:46,022 Speaker 2: they do have fun together, and that's why when what 108 00:06:46,182 --> 00:06:49,422 Speaker 2: happens unfolds, it's so heartbreaking, because there is a real 109 00:06:49,502 --> 00:06:52,662 Speaker 2: relationship and love there, and I think sometimes you can't 110 00:06:52,702 --> 00:06:55,022 Speaker 2: really have the darkness in the way that this play 111 00:06:55,102 --> 00:06:57,582 Speaker 2: asks for darkness in droves. 112 00:06:57,582 --> 00:06:59,462 Speaker 3: Without having that humor and that light. 113 00:06:59,662 --> 00:07:02,502 Speaker 2: Lots of people really do believe in deliverance and exorcism 114 00:07:02,542 --> 00:07:05,902 Speaker 2: in the real world, as I've learned through doing this process, 115 00:07:06,662 --> 00:07:10,982 Speaker 2: but they also the sort of courage of conviction or 116 00:07:11,142 --> 00:07:16,502 Speaker 2: deep conviction inside of believing in this process is can 117 00:07:16,542 --> 00:07:20,062 Speaker 2: be very funny because they sort of grab on to 118 00:07:20,382 --> 00:07:24,502 Speaker 2: small moments like a move of an eyebrow or a 119 00:07:24,542 --> 00:07:27,702 Speaker 2: nodding of a head and turn it into huge moments 120 00:07:27,702 --> 00:07:28,822 Speaker 2: of like that's a demon. 121 00:07:28,902 --> 00:07:30,622 Speaker 3: That's a demon. That's a demon, And. 122 00:07:31,222 --> 00:07:34,502 Speaker 2: Inevitably that's kind of hilarious because from the outside we're 123 00:07:34,542 --> 00:07:36,822 Speaker 2: sitting there being like, well, that's obviously not a demon. 124 00:07:37,022 --> 00:07:40,222 Speaker 2: Like what, but so, yeah, that's part of where the 125 00:07:40,302 --> 00:07:40,982 Speaker 2: humor comes from. 126 00:07:41,022 --> 00:07:44,942 Speaker 1: I think, have you had any tension from anyone involved 127 00:07:44,982 --> 00:07:47,382 Speaker 1: in the real life story, any feedback? 128 00:07:48,142 --> 00:07:51,262 Speaker 2: I think that the original production did have tension, which 129 00:07:51,302 --> 00:07:54,422 Speaker 2: was at the Malt House in Melbourne in twenty and eleven, 130 00:07:54,462 --> 00:07:58,662 Speaker 2: I believe, but I know we haven't heard anything. But 131 00:07:58,742 --> 00:08:00,822 Speaker 2: I guess, you know, part of I think when you're 132 00:08:00,862 --> 00:08:04,502 Speaker 2: telling stories that matter is that you should end up 133 00:08:04,582 --> 00:08:08,662 Speaker 2: with conflict sometimes because if we just tell stories that 134 00:08:08,822 --> 00:08:12,862 Speaker 2: are safe, then we won't come into conflict. But you know, 135 00:08:12,982 --> 00:08:16,182 Speaker 2: talking about something that is so relevant right now, the 136 00:08:16,222 --> 00:08:19,902 Speaker 2: death of that young girl very recently in the news 137 00:08:20,502 --> 00:08:25,062 Speaker 2: at the hands of ultra religious parents and ultra religious 138 00:08:25,102 --> 00:08:28,702 Speaker 2: group is so relevant to this case, and you sort 139 00:08:28,742 --> 00:08:31,542 Speaker 2: of see like how over time, you know, maybe our 140 00:08:31,542 --> 00:08:33,702 Speaker 2: perspectives on that have changed a lot, given that in 141 00:08:33,742 --> 00:08:37,982 Speaker 2: this original case with Joan Volma, they got away with it, 142 00:08:38,022 --> 00:08:42,062 Speaker 2: they weren't sentenced in any way, and like that speaks 143 00:08:42,102 --> 00:08:44,902 Speaker 2: so much to where Australia was in the nineties with 144 00:08:45,062 --> 00:08:48,262 Speaker 2: women and domestic violence, and you know how we valued 145 00:08:48,302 --> 00:08:52,102 Speaker 2: women's lives. And so yeah, anyway, no no contact from 146 00:08:52,742 --> 00:08:55,382 Speaker 2: anyone involved in the original story. I'm sure they wish 147 00:08:55,462 --> 00:08:57,542 Speaker 2: to put it behind them themselves. 148 00:08:58,502 --> 00:09:00,022 Speaker 1: I am going to get to the real story. But 149 00:09:00,302 --> 00:09:05,702 Speaker 1: I am curious to hear your thoughts because obviously, this 150 00:09:05,782 --> 00:09:07,862 Speaker 1: play is not the first time that based on a 151 00:09:07,862 --> 00:09:11,942 Speaker 1: real story has been turned into art. We see it 152 00:09:12,062 --> 00:09:15,742 Speaker 1: every day on Netflix on all the streaming services. Do 153 00:09:15,822 --> 00:09:19,502 Speaker 1: you think it can be taken too far? I'm thinking 154 00:09:19,742 --> 00:09:22,462 Speaker 1: automatically about the Menendez Brothers that was turned into a 155 00:09:22,502 --> 00:09:25,582 Speaker 1: fictionalized based on a real so it's done over and 156 00:09:25,622 --> 00:09:27,462 Speaker 1: over again. What are your thoughts on the way we 157 00:09:27,542 --> 00:09:27,822 Speaker 1: do it. 158 00:09:28,742 --> 00:09:32,862 Speaker 2: I think that I used to be really obsessed with 159 00:09:33,062 --> 00:09:36,502 Speaker 2: true crime like adaptations, and I think that I moved 160 00:09:36,542 --> 00:09:38,422 Speaker 2: away from it partially because you know, I was sort 161 00:09:38,422 --> 00:09:41,622 Speaker 2: of like not able to sleep at night. But I 162 00:09:41,662 --> 00:09:45,462 Speaker 2: think that my take on it is partly that it 163 00:09:45,542 --> 00:09:49,062 Speaker 2: really depends on if there's a point to telling the story, 164 00:09:49,622 --> 00:09:52,982 Speaker 2: you know. I think that there's some really interesting content 165 00:09:53,062 --> 00:09:56,862 Speaker 2: being made, particularly by the streamers around like how do 166 00:09:56,902 --> 00:10:01,542 Speaker 2: we talk about, you know, violence in sort of the 167 00:10:01,702 --> 00:10:03,902 Speaker 2: different ways that it manifests. What's coming to my mind 168 00:10:03,942 --> 00:10:06,862 Speaker 2: right now is Baby Reindeer, which obviously has just been 169 00:10:06,902 --> 00:10:10,582 Speaker 2: like a huge success, and that story is so interesting 170 00:10:10,622 --> 00:10:14,582 Speaker 2: because lots of those crimes that that character, the woman, 171 00:10:15,102 --> 00:10:19,622 Speaker 2: she sort of steps over lines that are would never 172 00:10:19,662 --> 00:10:22,622 Speaker 2: have been considered crimes ten fifteen years ago, right, like 173 00:10:22,702 --> 00:10:25,262 Speaker 2: sending lots and lots of text and inundating and but 174 00:10:25,302 --> 00:10:27,302 Speaker 2: then of course you get into the stalking and stuff. 175 00:10:27,502 --> 00:10:30,262 Speaker 2: But I think there's a real point to talking about 176 00:10:30,462 --> 00:10:33,422 Speaker 2: what online violence means and what those sorts of things mean. 177 00:10:33,462 --> 00:10:36,462 Speaker 2: And I think similarly with this story, you know, there's 178 00:10:36,622 --> 00:10:41,822 Speaker 2: kind of very unfortunately a never ending need to continue 179 00:10:41,822 --> 00:10:44,542 Speaker 2: to talk about intimate partner violence and violence against women 180 00:10:45,182 --> 00:10:51,222 Speaker 2: and how different community groups use ultra strong beliefs, like 181 00:10:51,262 --> 00:10:54,982 Speaker 2: it's not just religious groups but different sort of minority 182 00:10:55,022 --> 00:10:59,262 Speaker 2: groups in various forms use you know, belief systems and 183 00:10:59,582 --> 00:11:02,862 Speaker 2: those sorts of things to oppress women in spaces and 184 00:11:03,542 --> 00:11:08,422 Speaker 2: justify violence against them. Is inevitably important to continue to 185 00:11:08,462 --> 00:11:10,062 Speaker 2: talk about, at least here. 186 00:11:09,902 --> 00:11:12,342 Speaker 3: In Australia and you know, pretty much everywhere in the world. 187 00:11:12,862 --> 00:11:15,142 Speaker 2: So I think that's my take on it is that 188 00:11:15,182 --> 00:11:17,622 Speaker 2: if it's got a point, and like that doesn't mean 189 00:11:17,622 --> 00:11:19,342 Speaker 2: that it's like hitting you over the head with the point, 190 00:11:19,342 --> 00:11:22,462 Speaker 2: but if it's sort of there's a reason for continuing 191 00:11:22,462 --> 00:11:26,302 Speaker 2: to tell these stories, then I think that's important. Sometimes 192 00:11:26,302 --> 00:11:28,782 Speaker 2: I think that we are taking it sort of into 193 00:11:28,822 --> 00:11:30,822 Speaker 2: a place where it's sort of like a sick pleasure, 194 00:11:31,782 --> 00:11:34,382 Speaker 2: and I do think that that is possibly wrong, because 195 00:11:34,422 --> 00:11:39,342 Speaker 2: you're sort of milking people's genuine suffering through like murder 196 00:11:39,382 --> 00:11:42,862 Speaker 2: and the serial killer obsession that we sort of do have, 197 00:11:43,102 --> 00:11:46,182 Speaker 2: you know, the Ted Bundy's, Jeffrey Dahmer's sort of stories. 198 00:11:46,742 --> 00:11:49,902 Speaker 2: We sort of are milking other people's suffering to create 199 00:11:50,062 --> 00:11:54,022 Speaker 2: what I consider to be quite light entertainment. Now, whereas 200 00:11:54,102 --> 00:11:56,502 Speaker 2: you know, I think the great thing about theater I 201 00:11:56,502 --> 00:11:58,622 Speaker 2: think as an art form is that, you know, usually 202 00:11:59,102 --> 00:12:01,622 Speaker 2: usually don't tell stories unless they really matter, because it's 203 00:12:01,662 --> 00:12:05,302 Speaker 2: so hard to do theater. And so I think that 204 00:12:05,462 --> 00:12:08,062 Speaker 2: in this case it's it definitely feels justified. 205 00:12:08,462 --> 00:12:12,022 Speaker 1: Let's tell the real story. Let's tell Joe's Yeah, I 206 00:12:12,062 --> 00:12:16,062 Speaker 1: want you to transport listeners back to Antwerp in Victoria 207 00:12:16,182 --> 00:12:19,902 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. What is that part of the 208 00:12:19,982 --> 00:12:22,062 Speaker 1: country like and what's that community like? 209 00:12:23,222 --> 00:12:27,462 Speaker 2: Really really desolate, I think, is how I would describe it. 210 00:12:27,622 --> 00:12:31,062 Speaker 2: I think at the time the population of the town 211 00:12:31,222 --> 00:12:34,862 Speaker 2: was sixty three people, just tiny it's tiny, like if 212 00:12:34,942 --> 00:12:37,182 Speaker 2: you work in an office block, probably the people on 213 00:12:37,222 --> 00:12:40,582 Speaker 2: your floor or on the two floors above you, is 214 00:12:40,622 --> 00:12:43,782 Speaker 2: that many people that would have been your whole town. 215 00:12:44,022 --> 00:12:47,142 Speaker 2: And the really interesting thing about the real house where 216 00:12:47,142 --> 00:12:50,822 Speaker 2: the events take place is that it's so far away 217 00:12:50,902 --> 00:12:54,062 Speaker 2: from anything else. And you know, there's that classic horror 218 00:12:54,142 --> 00:12:56,222 Speaker 2: you know, no one can hear you scream kind of thing, 219 00:12:56,702 --> 00:12:59,702 Speaker 2: which I think is very real and present in this 220 00:12:59,862 --> 00:13:04,782 Speaker 2: story of Joan, is that she was completely isolated. There's 221 00:13:04,982 --> 00:13:08,262 Speaker 2: no running away from this situation. There's no running to 222 00:13:08,302 --> 00:13:11,942 Speaker 2: the next houseover and and saying, please help me, I'm 223 00:13:11,942 --> 00:13:16,902 Speaker 2: in trouble. The next houseover is ages away, you know, 224 00:13:17,022 --> 00:13:20,022 Speaker 2: acres and acres away from you know, and so on 225 00:13:20,062 --> 00:13:23,382 Speaker 2: and so forth. So there's very little in the town. 226 00:13:23,662 --> 00:13:25,982 Speaker 2: You have to go the next town over in order 227 00:13:26,022 --> 00:13:29,662 Speaker 2: to get to the sort of mainstream Christian church that's there. 228 00:13:30,382 --> 00:13:33,942 Speaker 2: So really I think a lot about sound and about 229 00:13:33,982 --> 00:13:37,142 Speaker 2: silence when I think about this show and about this story, 230 00:13:37,542 --> 00:13:42,742 Speaker 2: because so much time would be passing where all you 231 00:13:42,782 --> 00:13:46,382 Speaker 2: could hear was the sound of nature and nothing else 232 00:13:46,462 --> 00:13:49,422 Speaker 2: was happening around you, and so on the farm that 233 00:13:49,582 --> 00:13:51,942 Speaker 2: Joan and Ralph lived on they were pig farmers, so 234 00:13:52,142 --> 00:13:53,422 Speaker 2: you know, the pigs and things. 235 00:13:53,862 --> 00:13:57,862 Speaker 1: So they were pig farmers or Ralph was a pig farmer. Yes, 236 00:13:58,022 --> 00:14:01,542 Speaker 1: And they were a kind of fairly new relationship, weren't they. 237 00:14:01,542 --> 00:14:03,422 Speaker 1: There's like a second marriage for both of them. 238 00:14:03,582 --> 00:14:05,022 Speaker 3: Yea, their story, that's true. 239 00:14:05,142 --> 00:14:09,662 Speaker 2: So they married when Joan was forty four and Ralph 240 00:14:09,702 --> 00:14:13,422 Speaker 2: was nine, so late in life, which I think is 241 00:14:13,462 --> 00:14:17,542 Speaker 2: really interesting, and he has in previous interviews described it 242 00:14:17,582 --> 00:14:20,142 Speaker 2: as like meeting her was like a miracle, you know, 243 00:14:20,182 --> 00:14:22,422 Speaker 2: like the second chance for him, which I think is 244 00:14:22,502 --> 00:14:28,062 Speaker 2: so beautiful and endearing. He had a previous marriage and 245 00:14:28,102 --> 00:14:31,822 Speaker 2: had a child in that marriage. Joan didn't have children, 246 00:14:32,862 --> 00:14:37,302 Speaker 2: had never married, not sure about her relationship history, but 247 00:14:37,462 --> 00:14:40,062 Speaker 2: had had sort of trouble holding down a job and 248 00:14:40,102 --> 00:14:43,582 Speaker 2: things like that, and he had gone through lots of 249 00:14:43,622 --> 00:14:47,302 Speaker 2: different career paths and was quite entrepreneurial. And then eventually 250 00:14:47,302 --> 00:14:49,622 Speaker 2: sort of they im packed up their lives and moved 251 00:14:49,662 --> 00:14:54,222 Speaker 2: to Antwerp together because there was sort of this sort 252 00:14:54,262 --> 00:14:57,062 Speaker 2: of boom in like pig farming, I think. 253 00:14:56,942 --> 00:14:59,422 Speaker 3: And interesting, really interesting. Yeah. 254 00:14:59,502 --> 00:15:02,262 Speaker 2: I would know absolutely nothing about that, being a city 255 00:15:02,382 --> 00:15:06,222 Speaker 2: rat myself. Yeah, So I think all of That is 256 00:15:06,302 --> 00:15:09,782 Speaker 2: really interesting context because you know, you're sort of dipping 257 00:15:09,822 --> 00:15:12,862 Speaker 2: out of the honeymoon phase of a marriage, right, like, 258 00:15:12,942 --> 00:15:15,942 Speaker 2: you know, four or five years in by the time. 259 00:15:15,702 --> 00:15:17,542 Speaker 1: That they everything happened. 260 00:15:17,582 --> 00:15:18,942 Speaker 3: Everything happens. 261 00:15:19,742 --> 00:15:23,942 Speaker 1: Do we know anything about their relationship? You speak about 262 00:15:23,942 --> 00:15:26,422 Speaker 1: it quite fondly. So there was no abuse, there was 263 00:15:26,462 --> 00:15:28,622 Speaker 1: no kind of strains that we know of. 264 00:15:28,782 --> 00:15:31,902 Speaker 2: It's difficult, I guess to tell, because one of the 265 00:15:31,902 --> 00:15:35,102 Speaker 2: big problems with the case is obviously that all of 266 00:15:35,142 --> 00:15:39,662 Speaker 2: the evidence that's gathered mostly is gathered from him and 267 00:15:39,702 --> 00:15:42,942 Speaker 2: his perspective and the people who are defending themselves in 268 00:15:42,982 --> 00:15:46,142 Speaker 2: this case, like they talk about the relationship, but of 269 00:15:46,182 --> 00:15:49,502 Speaker 2: course Joan's voice is missing in that right. Joan's family 270 00:15:50,302 --> 00:15:52,622 Speaker 2: denied some of the claims that he had made about 271 00:15:52,742 --> 00:15:55,582 Speaker 2: them because there was a claim at one point that 272 00:15:56,062 --> 00:16:00,022 Speaker 2: Joan had been sexually abused as a child, and the 273 00:16:00,062 --> 00:16:04,182 Speaker 2: family denied that, of course, I guess, but yeah, I 274 00:16:04,182 --> 00:16:07,902 Speaker 2: think probably the most interesting sort of key point is 275 00:16:07,942 --> 00:16:14,222 Speaker 2: that two two years prior to the events of the 276 00:16:14,462 --> 00:16:19,022 Speaker 2: play slash the real exorcism, Joan had been admitted into 277 00:16:19,062 --> 00:16:24,742 Speaker 2: a institution called Lakeside, and the doctors at that institution 278 00:16:25,022 --> 00:16:27,942 Speaker 2: had said that it was quite likely that Joan was 279 00:16:27,942 --> 00:16:31,022 Speaker 2: suffering from a form of schizophrenia. And I think that's 280 00:16:31,102 --> 00:16:34,702 Speaker 2: really important to all of the rest of the story, 281 00:16:34,862 --> 00:16:38,462 Speaker 2: is that that part mental health kind of being less 282 00:16:38,502 --> 00:16:40,862 Speaker 2: of a topic than it obviously is in twenty twenty five, 283 00:16:41,302 --> 00:16:45,702 Speaker 2: and our understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia being much 284 00:16:45,782 --> 00:16:51,422 Speaker 2: less clear back then. But she had been to some 285 00:16:51,462 --> 00:16:55,302 Speaker 2: extent diagnosed and given medication that she then came off. 286 00:16:55,742 --> 00:16:58,702 Speaker 2: And I think that's really important setting for the events 287 00:16:58,702 --> 00:16:59,822 Speaker 2: of the story. 288 00:16:59,942 --> 00:17:03,142 Speaker 1: So in January nineteen ninety three, what kind of behavior 289 00:17:03,182 --> 00:17:05,622 Speaker 1: did Rolf say he was starting to notice in Joan? 290 00:17:06,182 --> 00:17:09,142 Speaker 2: So he said that he was starting to notice she 291 00:17:09,342 --> 00:17:16,022 Speaker 2: was lurching and dancing outside, sometimes naked, which disturbed him greatly. 292 00:17:16,702 --> 00:17:19,462 Speaker 2: He claimed that she was quote this is actual quote 293 00:17:19,622 --> 00:17:22,702 Speaker 2: acting like a prostitute, which he said at the trial, 294 00:17:23,222 --> 00:17:25,662 Speaker 2: and that she took on the physical form of a 295 00:17:25,742 --> 00:17:30,462 Speaker 2: pig and a dog and the personality of a sheep shearer, 296 00:17:31,102 --> 00:17:33,822 Speaker 2: and that she was swearing loudly. She would tear off 297 00:17:33,822 --> 00:17:37,942 Speaker 2: her clothes and run through the fields. So I think 298 00:17:37,982 --> 00:17:42,142 Speaker 2: it's important sometimes on podcasts about I've listened to absolutely 299 00:17:42,182 --> 00:17:44,262 Speaker 2: everything that there is to listen to about this case, 300 00:17:44,622 --> 00:17:48,702 Speaker 2: and sometimes I do think that there's like a immediately 301 00:17:48,742 --> 00:17:54,942 Speaker 2: a characterization of Ralph as like a quite like an abusive, 302 00:17:55,022 --> 00:18:00,582 Speaker 2: violent man. And I think that actually it's really important 303 00:18:00,582 --> 00:18:02,902 Speaker 2: to remember that he did all of this because he 304 00:18:02,982 --> 00:18:05,862 Speaker 2: loved her, and that like it's hard for us, I think, 305 00:18:05,902 --> 00:18:10,142 Speaker 2: like modern audiences and modern women to like wrap their 306 00:18:10,142 --> 00:18:14,342 Speaker 2: heads around how that's possible. But sometimes I think love 307 00:18:14,422 --> 00:18:17,462 Speaker 2: is like so intense that you do those things. And 308 00:18:17,942 --> 00:18:20,302 Speaker 2: so I do think that he was probably actually quite 309 00:18:20,342 --> 00:18:23,902 Speaker 2: scared of her behavior and like physically felt threatened. And 310 00:18:23,942 --> 00:18:27,302 Speaker 2: so I think this that's quite an interesting sort of 311 00:18:27,342 --> 00:18:30,982 Speaker 2: back drop as well, that this kind of behavior which 312 00:18:31,102 --> 00:18:33,702 Speaker 2: obviously I think to like, it's quite obvious that if 313 00:18:33,782 --> 00:18:36,542 Speaker 2: she'd come off her meds that she'd been given, you 314 00:18:36,622 --> 00:18:38,622 Speaker 2: know that it was just a resurgence in the behavior 315 00:18:38,662 --> 00:18:40,142 Speaker 2: as a result of coming off the meds. 316 00:18:40,142 --> 00:18:42,462 Speaker 1: To me, that sounds like a clear ment. 317 00:18:42,582 --> 00:18:43,462 Speaker 3: Totally obvious. 318 00:18:43,542 --> 00:18:46,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally obvious, And I completely agree with that. But 319 00:18:46,262 --> 00:18:49,462 Speaker 2: I also think that like him turning to God in 320 00:18:49,502 --> 00:18:54,142 Speaker 2: this moment because he was extremely devout and turns to well, 321 00:18:54,142 --> 00:18:56,622 Speaker 2: what can God do for me in this moment? And 322 00:18:56,982 --> 00:19:01,542 Speaker 2: the solution that's presented to him by his fellow charismatic 323 00:19:01,582 --> 00:19:04,302 Speaker 2: Christians is like exoricism and deliverance. 324 00:19:05,182 --> 00:19:07,342 Speaker 1: Can we talk about the people he turns to for help, 325 00:19:07,422 --> 00:19:12,742 Speaker 1: because they actually had been excommunicated from their church, right, 326 00:19:12,902 --> 00:19:17,462 Speaker 1: so we've got lots of play here. But they were 327 00:19:17,462 --> 00:19:22,622 Speaker 1: giving him very skewed advice. What was their kind of story? 328 00:19:22,782 --> 00:19:24,342 Speaker 1: Why had they been excommunicated? 329 00:19:24,702 --> 00:19:28,622 Speaker 2: So Leanne Reichenbach, who was their neighbor, I don't know 330 00:19:28,622 --> 00:19:31,382 Speaker 2: if she was a direct neighbor or you know, somewhere 331 00:19:31,382 --> 00:19:34,542 Speaker 2: in the town, but lived in Antwerp as well. They 332 00:19:34,582 --> 00:19:38,582 Speaker 2: had a Bible study group, her and her husband, and 333 00:19:39,342 --> 00:19:41,942 Speaker 2: they had actually started this group yet, as you say, 334 00:19:42,022 --> 00:19:47,422 Speaker 2: after being excommunicated, and she had been excommunicated for, which 335 00:19:47,502 --> 00:19:49,942 Speaker 2: is really interesting and I sort of can't quite wrap 336 00:19:49,982 --> 00:19:52,782 Speaker 2: my head around what Ralph was thinking at this moment, 337 00:19:53,502 --> 00:19:56,582 Speaker 2: is that she had been excommunicated from the church for 338 00:19:57,062 --> 00:20:01,142 Speaker 2: trying to exercise too many people and trying to perform 339 00:20:01,142 --> 00:20:06,022 Speaker 2: exorcisms without enough evidence. Because it's really important to note 340 00:20:06,622 --> 00:20:09,982 Speaker 2: that the Catholic Church in particular has really really strict 341 00:20:10,062 --> 00:20:12,622 Speaker 2: rules whether or not a person is allowed to have 342 00:20:12,702 --> 00:20:15,342 Speaker 2: an exorcism performed on them. Or not, and it's a 343 00:20:15,382 --> 00:20:19,582 Speaker 2: really like clear list of criteria. Then it has to 344 00:20:19,622 --> 00:20:23,022 Speaker 2: go all the way up to the highest levels of 345 00:20:23,062 --> 00:20:25,222 Speaker 2: the church before it gets approved and comes back. 346 00:20:25,502 --> 00:20:26,622 Speaker 1: So it is still something we do. 347 00:20:26,702 --> 00:20:27,662 Speaker 3: It's still church. 348 00:20:27,862 --> 00:20:31,422 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm not religious, so this is news to me. 349 00:20:31,542 --> 00:20:33,542 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well news to you is that it is 350 00:20:33,622 --> 00:20:36,182 Speaker 2: absolutely something that people are still doing, both inside and 351 00:20:36,222 --> 00:20:40,102 Speaker 2: outside of the church. And yes, so anyway, so Leanne 352 00:20:40,102 --> 00:20:43,942 Speaker 2: had tried too many times with very little evidence, to 353 00:20:43,982 --> 00:20:48,262 Speaker 2: perform exorisms on people and had encouraged people to have 354 00:20:48,302 --> 00:20:52,222 Speaker 2: exorcisms when it just like clearly wasn't necessary because. 355 00:20:51,942 --> 00:20:55,342 Speaker 3: You know, with the church, the official church procedure. 356 00:20:54,862 --> 00:20:56,822 Speaker 2: You have to see a psychiatrist, you have to see 357 00:20:56,862 --> 00:20:59,902 Speaker 2: a doctor, you have to see all these people. 358 00:20:59,622 --> 00:21:00,822 Speaker 3: Who can testify it. 359 00:21:00,862 --> 00:21:05,902 Speaker 2: No, no, this is actually something other than medical. So 360 00:21:05,982 --> 00:21:10,942 Speaker 2: she is quite an interesting character and is represented inside 361 00:21:10,942 --> 00:21:11,902 Speaker 2: of our show as well. 362 00:21:12,382 --> 00:21:13,382 Speaker 3: So he turns to. 363 00:21:13,382 --> 00:21:17,862 Speaker 2: Leanne first, and then Leanne starts to bring in all 364 00:21:17,902 --> 00:21:21,462 Speaker 2: these other people, which is really like the rest of 365 00:21:21,502 --> 00:21:25,702 Speaker 2: these people are so interesting and like you just sort 366 00:21:25,742 --> 00:21:28,542 Speaker 2: of can't quite wrap your heads around what must. 367 00:21:28,422 --> 00:21:32,942 Speaker 3: Have been going on inside of this house for these four. 368 00:21:32,822 --> 00:21:39,182 Speaker 1: Days you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath. 369 00:21:39,622 --> 00:21:43,662 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Margaret Thanos, director of Furious Mattress, a 370 00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:46,902 Speaker 1: play by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of 371 00:21:46,942 --> 00:21:50,542 Speaker 1: a four day exorcism in Victoria, Australia. Up next to 372 00:21:50,622 --> 00:21:54,222 Speaker 1: Margaret tells us how the exorcism started and how Joan 373 00:21:54,342 --> 00:21:59,102 Speaker 1: was identified as having multiple demons within her. I want 374 00:21:59,142 --> 00:22:02,662 Speaker 1: to bring in the people as because it's a four 375 00:22:02,782 --> 00:22:06,342 Speaker 1: day kind of yees series of events we're talking about. Yes, 376 00:22:06,542 --> 00:22:10,982 Speaker 1: it starts, it escalates, So how does it start? What 377 00:22:11,622 --> 00:22:13,982 Speaker 1: is the starting point? What does she suggest to Rolf 378 00:22:14,062 --> 00:22:15,222 Speaker 1: that he do so? 379 00:22:15,342 --> 00:22:19,462 Speaker 2: At first, Rolf attempts to get rid of the demons 380 00:22:19,502 --> 00:22:21,302 Speaker 2: on his own by locking. 381 00:22:22,422 --> 00:22:24,622 Speaker 3: Joan in the basement and he leaves her. 382 00:22:24,622 --> 00:22:29,862 Speaker 2: There, and obviously she screams all through the night, and 383 00:22:30,862 --> 00:22:33,422 Speaker 2: so later he ties her to the bed in the room, 384 00:22:33,982 --> 00:22:38,062 Speaker 2: leaves her there. Again, she's still screaming. It's obviously not working. 385 00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:44,662 Speaker 2: That's when he calls Leanne and that's when this four 386 00:22:44,742 --> 00:22:50,662 Speaker 2: day process begins, and so they have intense prayer sessions and. 387 00:22:52,262 --> 00:22:54,542 Speaker 3: Joan obviously starts to struggle and. 388 00:22:54,622 --> 00:22:56,182 Speaker 1: Because they're not feeding her, they're. 389 00:22:55,982 --> 00:22:58,582 Speaker 2: Not feeding her, okay, they're denying her water, which I think, 390 00:22:58,622 --> 00:23:01,262 Speaker 2: you know obviously is you know, you can't quite understand 391 00:23:01,342 --> 00:23:03,342 Speaker 2: why humans do these sorts of things to each other 392 00:23:03,342 --> 00:23:05,422 Speaker 2: because it sort of seems so obvious that you would 393 00:23:05,422 --> 00:23:08,262 Speaker 2: physically be harming them. But there are so many exorcism 394 00:23:08,262 --> 00:23:11,742 Speaker 2: stories very similar to this, where young women in particular 395 00:23:11,862 --> 00:23:15,102 Speaker 2: are killed this way where you know they've made it. 396 00:23:15,142 --> 00:23:18,102 Speaker 2: They emaciated and then they starved to death through processes 397 00:23:18,142 --> 00:23:18,422 Speaker 2: like this. 398 00:23:18,462 --> 00:23:18,942 Speaker 1: Horrific. 399 00:23:18,942 --> 00:23:19,582 Speaker 3: It's horrific. 400 00:23:19,622 --> 00:23:23,542 Speaker 2: It's absolutely all they And actually Joan didn't die of starvation, 401 00:23:23,662 --> 00:23:25,942 Speaker 2: she died of the physical force that they were applying 402 00:23:25,942 --> 00:23:26,462 Speaker 2: to her body. 403 00:23:27,462 --> 00:23:29,302 Speaker 1: I would like to add as well that Leanne had 404 00:23:29,382 --> 00:23:33,182 Speaker 1: kind of diagnosed her as having ten demons. It was very. 405 00:23:33,102 --> 00:23:37,222 Speaker 2: Specific, ten specific demons, and I can name some of 406 00:23:37,262 --> 00:23:40,262 Speaker 2: them for you now, which is based on the trial transcripts. 407 00:23:40,782 --> 00:23:43,702 Speaker 3: There was the spirit of filth, the spirit of abuse. 408 00:23:44,262 --> 00:23:47,342 Speaker 2: But the most interesting one, I think is this demon 409 00:23:47,782 --> 00:23:51,262 Speaker 2: which they called Legion, which is actually from a real 410 00:23:51,342 --> 00:23:54,702 Speaker 2: story in the Bible. The meaning of Legion is it's 411 00:23:54,742 --> 00:23:58,142 Speaker 2: like the power of many or the power of lots, 412 00:23:58,222 --> 00:24:00,902 Speaker 2: and this is a very popular demon in. 413 00:24:01,142 --> 00:24:02,542 Speaker 3: The exorcism community. 414 00:24:02,582 --> 00:24:06,582 Speaker 2: Apparently the story from the actual Bible, there's this story 415 00:24:06,622 --> 00:24:10,582 Speaker 2: where Jesus comes across this man who's wandering around in 416 00:24:10,582 --> 00:24:14,382 Speaker 2: the desert and gives him an exorcism and all the 417 00:24:14,382 --> 00:24:15,942 Speaker 2: demons go into this horde. 418 00:24:15,742 --> 00:24:17,542 Speaker 3: Of pigs and then the pigs run off the cliff. 419 00:24:18,222 --> 00:24:21,702 Speaker 2: But the man says this thing before Jesus does this, 420 00:24:22,182 --> 00:24:24,982 Speaker 2: where he goes, we are legion for we are many, 421 00:24:25,462 --> 00:24:30,422 Speaker 2: and apparently Joan was saying something along similar lines at 422 00:24:30,422 --> 00:24:34,662 Speaker 2: the time. So they identified ten specific demons, and I 423 00:24:34,742 --> 00:24:38,262 Speaker 2: think that's quite interesting because when you think about schizophrenia 424 00:24:38,542 --> 00:24:41,102 Speaker 2: and what that is and sort of the personality shifts 425 00:24:41,102 --> 00:24:44,742 Speaker 2: that can seem to be occurring inside of that illness, 426 00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,742 Speaker 2: it is quite interesting that, you know, they were actually 427 00:24:47,822 --> 00:24:51,262 Speaker 2: kind of identifying these sort of personalities that were emerging 428 00:24:51,342 --> 00:24:54,662 Speaker 2: from Joan, but they just didn't know why. Oh, they 429 00:24:54,902 --> 00:24:56,542 Speaker 2: justified it in a different way. Yeah. 430 00:24:56,942 --> 00:25:00,502 Speaker 1: So there are two young men and they were young, 431 00:25:00,702 --> 00:25:04,062 Speaker 1: they're in their twenties. Yes, that Leanne kind of calls 432 00:25:04,062 --> 00:25:08,302 Speaker 1: in to help David Klinger and Matthew Nusk. Can you 433 00:25:08,342 --> 00:25:10,062 Speaker 1: tell us about them because they traveled. 434 00:25:10,502 --> 00:25:12,822 Speaker 3: They traveled from torl Swiss. 435 00:25:13,022 --> 00:25:15,462 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm a bit obsessed with Matthew in particular 436 00:25:15,502 --> 00:25:19,262 Speaker 2: because he travels all the way from Melbourne Melbourne, CBD 437 00:25:19,862 --> 00:25:22,142 Speaker 2: where he's living at the time, and he's doing a 438 00:25:22,182 --> 00:25:25,222 Speaker 2: plumbing apprenticeship at the time, and that's. 439 00:25:25,142 --> 00:25:28,862 Speaker 3: The only experience he's never done an exorcism before. And 440 00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:30,182 Speaker 3: it's his mother. 441 00:25:31,982 --> 00:25:35,862 Speaker 2: Leanne talks to his mother and his mum recommends him 442 00:25:35,902 --> 00:25:40,062 Speaker 2: because his mum believes that he's possessed with this power 443 00:25:40,102 --> 00:25:43,422 Speaker 2: of God, this power of spirit that will help to 444 00:25:43,502 --> 00:25:44,422 Speaker 2: exercise Joan. 445 00:25:44,662 --> 00:25:48,222 Speaker 3: And he's twenty two years old, like he's extremely young. 446 00:25:48,462 --> 00:25:50,262 Speaker 1: It's instances like this where I start to see the 447 00:25:50,302 --> 00:25:51,382 Speaker 1: comedy because you can't. 448 00:25:51,222 --> 00:25:52,862 Speaker 3: Can't help but think it's hilarious. 449 00:25:53,262 --> 00:25:59,102 Speaker 2: And so yeah, NUSK came in and did some really 450 00:25:59,462 --> 00:26:03,302 Speaker 2: really weird things. Instructed the group to destroy all of 451 00:26:03,382 --> 00:26:05,462 Speaker 2: Joan's possessions, including destroying. 452 00:26:05,062 --> 00:26:08,142 Speaker 3: Her very beloved garden. She loved her garden so so, 453 00:26:08,142 --> 00:26:08,822 Speaker 3: so so much. 454 00:26:09,422 --> 00:26:12,422 Speaker 2: But then he did this thing where he wraps cling 455 00:26:12,582 --> 00:26:18,382 Speaker 2: rap around the house seven times, and I'm just obsessed 456 00:26:18,422 --> 00:26:20,022 Speaker 2: with this image, like I can't get it out of 457 00:26:20,022 --> 00:26:24,622 Speaker 2: my head. Just why, no idea I've been researching, trying 458 00:26:24,622 --> 00:26:25,262 Speaker 2: to figure. 459 00:26:25,022 --> 00:26:27,542 Speaker 3: Out what on earth would have been possessed and all? 460 00:26:27,782 --> 00:26:29,422 Speaker 2: And so you do start to see the comedy, don't you, 461 00:26:29,462 --> 00:26:31,862 Speaker 2: Because all I can think of is that he saw 462 00:26:31,902 --> 00:26:34,222 Speaker 2: the cling rap in the drawer and thought on his 463 00:26:34,262 --> 00:26:37,462 Speaker 2: feet and when this will help. I wish that I 464 00:26:37,462 --> 00:26:40,102 Speaker 2: could talk to him, because I just wish that I 465 00:26:40,102 --> 00:26:40,662 Speaker 2: could know. 466 00:26:40,982 --> 00:26:43,502 Speaker 3: Why that was a thing. 467 00:26:44,102 --> 00:26:47,342 Speaker 1: The other man that we're talking about is David. He 468 00:26:47,502 --> 00:26:50,582 Speaker 1: was twenty eight. He also traveled in. He was someone 469 00:26:50,662 --> 00:26:53,102 Speaker 1: else that Leanne called in thinking that he'd be able 470 00:26:53,102 --> 00:26:56,022 Speaker 1: to help. Had a similar story, not much background, not 471 00:26:56,142 --> 00:27:01,062 Speaker 1: much kind of religious standing. So we've got David, Matthew, 472 00:27:01,302 --> 00:27:06,142 Speaker 1: Leanne and rolfs. Was there anyone else across those four 473 00:27:06,262 --> 00:27:08,702 Speaker 1: days that was involved? 474 00:27:09,142 --> 00:27:14,702 Speaker 2: So there was this one other woman called Leah Klugston. 475 00:27:15,222 --> 00:27:20,342 Speaker 2: And I think she's really interesting because Leah never actually appeared, 476 00:27:20,582 --> 00:27:23,702 Speaker 2: She never came to the house during the four days, 477 00:27:24,302 --> 00:27:27,302 Speaker 2: but she was this in a seventies, seventy eight at 478 00:27:27,342 --> 00:27:32,182 Speaker 2: the time, spiritual leader, you know, someone who Leanne clearly 479 00:27:32,382 --> 00:27:35,942 Speaker 2: looks up to and only gave guidance over the phone. 480 00:27:36,102 --> 00:27:37,742 Speaker 3: But at a moment. 481 00:27:37,462 --> 00:27:42,142 Speaker 2: Where Rolf was having clear moments of doubt, he has 482 00:27:42,182 --> 00:27:44,742 Speaker 2: this one moment where he was like, we shouldn't be 483 00:27:44,782 --> 00:27:49,622 Speaker 2: doing this, and they call Leah, and Leah, knowing nothing 484 00:27:49,662 --> 00:27:52,462 Speaker 2: about the state that Joan is in except for what 485 00:27:52,462 --> 00:27:56,342 Speaker 2: they've told her, says, I'm getting a message from God, 486 00:27:56,462 --> 00:27:59,582 Speaker 2: and God is telling me that you must continue. And 487 00:27:59,622 --> 00:28:02,862 Speaker 2: so that is the real turning point I think for Joan. 488 00:28:03,062 --> 00:28:05,542 Speaker 2: You know, like that that moment could have saved her life, 489 00:28:05,902 --> 00:28:07,942 Speaker 2: and instead it didn't. 490 00:28:08,022 --> 00:28:12,182 Speaker 1: Obviously, because we've talked about the fact they've restrained her, 491 00:28:12,222 --> 00:28:14,902 Speaker 1: the fact that they've starved her, all of these things. 492 00:28:14,942 --> 00:28:19,102 Speaker 1: But it starts to get incredibly violent, particularly from those 493 00:28:19,222 --> 00:28:19,782 Speaker 1: younger men. 494 00:28:20,062 --> 00:28:25,982 Speaker 2: She's physically beaten, physically beaten repeatedly across the head, smashed 495 00:28:26,022 --> 00:28:30,142 Speaker 2: into the walls, and they made Matthew, made the others 496 00:28:30,182 --> 00:28:34,822 Speaker 2: sit on her body, and they tied her up with 497 00:28:35,022 --> 00:28:38,622 Speaker 2: her own stockings, which I like, I don't know why, 498 00:28:38,662 --> 00:28:40,302 Speaker 2: but I can't get that image out of my head, 499 00:28:40,902 --> 00:28:44,262 Speaker 2: just like having been tied up with your own possessions, 500 00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:44,982 Speaker 2: and they. 501 00:28:44,942 --> 00:28:46,102 Speaker 3: Restrained her physically. 502 00:28:46,782 --> 00:28:52,942 Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely total totally abusive, totally physically violent, and 503 00:28:53,262 --> 00:28:57,462 Speaker 2: very very dangerous. And then ultimately they do this thing 504 00:28:57,622 --> 00:29:00,862 Speaker 2: in exorcism sometimes which is called like pressing and pressing 505 00:29:00,862 --> 00:29:02,782 Speaker 2: the demons out, and. 506 00:29:02,862 --> 00:29:04,662 Speaker 3: It literally is exactly what it says. 507 00:29:04,502 --> 00:29:08,222 Speaker 2: It's physically pressing on the person's body because they do 508 00:29:08,702 --> 00:29:11,742 Speaker 2: believe that the demons a corporeal in some way and 509 00:29:11,742 --> 00:29:14,782 Speaker 2: that they can be like pressed out and emerge from 510 00:29:15,542 --> 00:29:19,102 Speaker 2: the mouth in a way, and so they press all 511 00:29:19,182 --> 00:29:22,422 Speaker 2: it up up the body to try and apply pressure 512 00:29:22,462 --> 00:29:25,662 Speaker 2: to release the demons from the body. And it was 513 00:29:25,742 --> 00:29:30,822 Speaker 2: that pressure on Joan's thyroid that ends up it burst 514 00:29:30,902 --> 00:29:32,422 Speaker 2: and it ended up killing her. 515 00:29:33,942 --> 00:29:37,422 Speaker 3: The goal wasn't to kill her, absolutely not, No, the 516 00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:37,982 Speaker 3: goal was. 517 00:29:37,942 --> 00:29:42,142 Speaker 1: To get the demons out. When she died, how did 518 00:29:42,142 --> 00:29:46,342 Speaker 1: they react? Was that like that wasn't the plan? But 519 00:29:46,422 --> 00:29:48,942 Speaker 1: she passed away? What was that moment like, because we 520 00:29:49,302 --> 00:29:51,662 Speaker 1: unfortunately have a lot of detail about that moment because 521 00:29:52,582 --> 00:29:54,942 Speaker 1: they've spoken about it in detail. 522 00:29:55,582 --> 00:29:58,102 Speaker 2: Well, the fascinating thing about this case, I think, is 523 00:29:58,262 --> 00:30:02,222 Speaker 2: how long they waited. And this is where the belief 524 00:30:02,262 --> 00:30:07,502 Speaker 2: system sort of really becomes so fascinating, because so Joan dies, 525 00:30:07,542 --> 00:30:12,622 Speaker 2: there's no pulse and they celebrate. They celebrate because they 526 00:30:12,942 --> 00:30:16,222 Speaker 2: believe that she's going to be resurrected and that that's 527 00:30:16,502 --> 00:30:20,182 Speaker 2: God's plan and so much so, you know, this is 528 00:30:20,222 --> 00:30:23,662 Speaker 2: not sort of like a way of justifying it. They 529 00:30:23,862 --> 00:30:27,182 Speaker 2: totally I believe, having read everything I have about the 530 00:30:27,222 --> 00:30:31,262 Speaker 2: case and listen to everything that I could find, I 531 00:30:31,302 --> 00:30:33,462 Speaker 2: totally believe that they believed that she was going to 532 00:30:33,502 --> 00:30:36,462 Speaker 2: come back to life. I really do feel that at 533 00:30:36,542 --> 00:30:41,222 Speaker 2: least Ralph really believed that because he wasn't. 534 00:30:40,982 --> 00:30:41,982 Speaker 3: Ever ashamed of it. 535 00:30:42,062 --> 00:30:46,502 Speaker 2: And it's that key image of the police coming in 536 00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:50,982 Speaker 2: and seeing them sitting at the table eating lunch while 537 00:30:51,022 --> 00:30:57,022 Speaker 2: they are near this body that's totally decomposing two days 538 00:30:57,102 --> 00:31:00,462 Speaker 2: later is really interesting. But yeah, they celebrated and they 539 00:31:00,542 --> 00:31:03,462 Speaker 2: started to pray over the body, and yeah, it was 540 00:31:03,502 --> 00:31:05,422 Speaker 2: only once a few more people had come into the 541 00:31:05,462 --> 00:31:08,302 Speaker 2: situation that then you know, it sort of went we 542 00:31:08,342 --> 00:31:11,862 Speaker 2: need to call a doctor, to call the police. So 543 00:31:11,942 --> 00:31:14,782 Speaker 2: it was two days of praying and waiting, praying and 544 00:31:14,822 --> 00:31:18,182 Speaker 2: waiting and eating lunch. Yeah, And I don't know if 545 00:31:18,222 --> 00:31:21,302 Speaker 2: you know anything about how the body decomposes and how 546 00:31:21,382 --> 00:31:25,742 Speaker 2: quickly the body decomposes, but in the heat that it was, 547 00:31:25,822 --> 00:31:29,342 Speaker 2: it was forty degrees or close to every single day 548 00:31:29,502 --> 00:31:33,102 Speaker 2: in that four days, it was super super hot. In 549 00:31:33,182 --> 00:31:38,542 Speaker 2: that kind of heat, bodies decompose extremely rapidly and so 550 00:31:38,942 --> 00:31:42,742 Speaker 2: by the time that the police found her, she would 551 00:31:42,742 --> 00:31:49,822 Speaker 2: have been very much half gone, really like properly, flies, maggots. 552 00:31:49,302 --> 00:31:50,142 Speaker 3: All sorts of things. 553 00:31:50,182 --> 00:31:53,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, it's really vulon, but I think that's it 554 00:31:54,022 --> 00:31:56,662 Speaker 2: is the reality of the images is that after two 555 00:31:56,742 --> 00:31:59,702 Speaker 2: days of waiting, that's how far along the body would be. 556 00:32:00,062 --> 00:32:01,582 Speaker 3: But it's sort of. 557 00:32:01,542 --> 00:32:05,342 Speaker 2: This interesting suspension of disbelief that these people would have 558 00:32:05,422 --> 00:32:08,502 Speaker 2: had to have in order to be watching this body 559 00:32:08,542 --> 00:32:14,542 Speaker 2: in real time decompose. The mel would have been utterly unbelievable, 560 00:32:14,662 --> 00:32:21,662 Speaker 2: like unforgiving, and yet they're standing there praying, singing that 561 00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:25,422 Speaker 2: she's going to wake up. And Ralph he remained totally 562 00:32:25,422 --> 00:32:27,302 Speaker 2: confident that she was going to wake up all the 563 00:32:27,302 --> 00:32:30,422 Speaker 2: way until they buried her at the funeral. 564 00:32:34,782 --> 00:32:41,742 Speaker 1: Next what happens when the police find Jones's body. So 565 00:32:41,822 --> 00:32:47,582 Speaker 1: the police find Jones's body, but they don't arrest anyone initially. 566 00:32:48,542 --> 00:32:50,822 Speaker 3: They kind of just know, no, they don't. 567 00:32:51,222 --> 00:32:53,862 Speaker 2: And I think it's really interesting how the justice system 568 00:32:53,902 --> 00:32:57,422 Speaker 2: dealt with this case. I sort of have questions about 569 00:32:57,422 --> 00:33:01,262 Speaker 2: whether there was just a lot more forgiveness because of 570 00:33:01,422 --> 00:33:06,262 Speaker 2: how truthfully these people seemed to believe that she was 571 00:33:06,302 --> 00:33:08,622 Speaker 2: going to come back to life that like. 572 00:33:08,742 --> 00:33:11,542 Speaker 3: They truly believed. There's this quote. 573 00:33:11,462 --> 00:33:15,782 Speaker 2: Here from Volma where he spoke to media in the 574 00:33:15,822 --> 00:33:18,822 Speaker 2: lead up to the funeral, where he said that everything 575 00:33:18,862 --> 00:33:21,782 Speaker 2: that was done was done according to God's plan. I 576 00:33:21,822 --> 00:33:25,462 Speaker 2: am not sad, only humble and excited that God has 577 00:33:25,582 --> 00:33:28,502 Speaker 2: chosen me to be a part of this miracle. And 578 00:33:28,542 --> 00:33:31,102 Speaker 2: that's in the lead up to the funeral process, which. 579 00:33:30,902 --> 00:33:33,462 Speaker 1: Was about a week after police found her body. Yes, 580 00:33:33,502 --> 00:33:37,102 Speaker 1: and Ralph invites the media to come to the funeral. 581 00:33:37,222 --> 00:33:42,942 Speaker 2: Yes, what happens, and obviously Joan does not wake up, 582 00:33:43,342 --> 00:33:48,262 Speaker 2: and he only ever cried the moment that her the 583 00:33:48,302 --> 00:33:50,942 Speaker 2: coffin hit the ground. 584 00:33:52,062 --> 00:33:53,382 Speaker 3: That that was when he broke down. 585 00:33:53,382 --> 00:33:57,982 Speaker 2: And there's this fantastic photos of him just like super 586 00:33:58,102 --> 00:34:00,662 Speaker 2: Chipper at the beginning of the funeral and then just 587 00:34:00,902 --> 00:34:05,942 Speaker 2: the sort of crumpling at the realization that he actually 588 00:34:06,262 --> 00:34:08,542 Speaker 2: might have had a hand in the murder of his 589 00:34:08,582 --> 00:34:09,142 Speaker 2: own wife. 590 00:34:09,542 --> 00:34:11,382 Speaker 3: So yeah, there's all this media. 591 00:34:11,262 --> 00:34:15,742 Speaker 2: At the funeral and taking all these photos of him. 592 00:34:16,422 --> 00:34:19,382 Speaker 1: Jones's body as well as being decomposed, it showed obvious 593 00:34:19,422 --> 00:34:22,902 Speaker 1: science of abuse, Like you could see, yes, that she 594 00:34:23,062 --> 00:34:26,862 Speaker 1: had been hurt, she was restrained, and yet I think 595 00:34:26,862 --> 00:34:28,582 Speaker 1: the thing I struggle to get my head around is 596 00:34:28,622 --> 00:34:31,622 Speaker 1: that there were no arrests for three months. 597 00:34:31,782 --> 00:34:35,182 Speaker 2: Yes, I don't really know how to explain it. Like 598 00:34:36,022 --> 00:34:41,942 Speaker 2: I think that there's potentially at that time and maybe 599 00:34:42,022 --> 00:34:47,302 Speaker 2: even now, there's a complexity with practices that happen that 600 00:34:47,382 --> 00:34:50,102 Speaker 2: are on a religious basis here I think here in 601 00:34:50,102 --> 00:34:52,622 Speaker 2: Australia or maybe in the Western world more broadly, I 602 00:34:52,622 --> 00:34:58,622 Speaker 2: think there's like a complexity of what is defensible on 603 00:34:58,702 --> 00:35:02,022 Speaker 2: the basis of someone's religious beliefs is a really really. 604 00:35:01,702 --> 00:35:03,102 Speaker 3: Tricky subject matter. 605 00:35:03,582 --> 00:35:06,622 Speaker 2: I'm in no way justifying that this was ever okay, 606 00:35:07,382 --> 00:35:10,062 Speaker 2: and it wasn't and it never should be, but that 607 00:35:10,902 --> 00:35:14,942 Speaker 2: I think the mentality of the cops, and there's a 608 00:35:15,022 --> 00:35:18,222 Speaker 2: quote that goes something along the lines where one of 609 00:35:18,262 --> 00:35:23,582 Speaker 2: the police said talks about their belief system, and the 610 00:35:23,662 --> 00:35:26,782 Speaker 2: judge as well at the trial spoke about how their 611 00:35:27,022 --> 00:35:30,782 Speaker 2: intense belief that she was going to be resurrected is 612 00:35:30,822 --> 00:35:34,182 Speaker 2: the reason and that they were saving her. Their intense 613 00:35:34,222 --> 00:35:37,942 Speaker 2: belief that through exorcism they were saving her means that 614 00:35:37,942 --> 00:35:41,262 Speaker 2: they don't deserve to be punished for the crime, which 615 00:35:41,702 --> 00:35:45,782 Speaker 2: I think is a really interesting conversation for the present 616 00:35:45,822 --> 00:35:48,422 Speaker 2: moment where it's like, does ignorance mean that you don't 617 00:35:48,422 --> 00:35:51,582 Speaker 2: deserve you know, like I if I killed you right 618 00:35:51,622 --> 00:35:53,862 Speaker 2: now and I said I didn't know it was a crime, 619 00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:57,182 Speaker 2: is that like that would not be justifiable? And so 620 00:35:57,502 --> 00:36:00,662 Speaker 2: it sort of seems like this ignorance was used to 621 00:36:00,862 --> 00:36:02,382 Speaker 2: justify straight. 622 00:36:02,182 --> 00:36:04,102 Speaker 3: Up murder, like it's it's murder. 623 00:36:04,102 --> 00:36:06,982 Speaker 2: And they were all sort of charged initially with manslaughter, 624 00:36:07,102 --> 00:36:10,462 Speaker 2: not even with murder, which is crazy because I I 625 00:36:10,462 --> 00:36:12,742 Speaker 2: guess there was no intent to kill. 626 00:36:14,062 --> 00:36:17,182 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're talking about there were four people charged, 627 00:36:17,222 --> 00:36:20,062 Speaker 1: so Ralph, yes, that's correct, the husband, Leanne, who was 628 00:36:20,062 --> 00:36:23,982 Speaker 1: that initial kind of person that diagnosed her with the demons, 629 00:36:23,982 --> 00:36:27,182 Speaker 1: and then David and Matthew, men in their twenties. Yes, 630 00:36:27,422 --> 00:36:32,462 Speaker 1: all initially charged with manslaughter. And then initially a magistrate 631 00:36:32,502 --> 00:36:37,302 Speaker 1: found that there was insufficient evidence for trial and they got. 632 00:36:37,182 --> 00:36:41,982 Speaker 2: Let off, I know, which is crazy because there was 633 00:36:42,022 --> 00:36:44,302 Speaker 2: lots of evidence. I mean, I don't know, if you know, 634 00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:47,582 Speaker 2: they had covered things up at the house, you know, 635 00:36:47,742 --> 00:36:51,142 Speaker 2: like I imagine two guys in their twenties in this situation. 636 00:36:52,102 --> 00:36:54,702 Speaker 2: And I remember there's this quote from Matthew where he said, 637 00:36:54,902 --> 00:36:57,182 Speaker 2: you know, if they want me, they'll find me, and he. 638 00:36:57,222 --> 00:37:00,942 Speaker 3: Just sort of like literally left. But they performed another exorcism. 639 00:37:01,182 --> 00:37:06,462 Speaker 2: Leanne performed another exorcism four days later after this incident, 640 00:37:06,502 --> 00:37:09,022 Speaker 2: which I that is one of the facts that just 641 00:37:09,422 --> 00:37:11,582 Speaker 2: makes my head spin, just like you went through all 642 00:37:11,622 --> 00:37:13,822 Speaker 2: of that and then you were like four days later, yeah, 643 00:37:13,902 --> 00:37:16,142 Speaker 2: let's do it again, Like it's so crazy. 644 00:37:16,262 --> 00:37:19,142 Speaker 1: They did end up going to trial, Yes, what was 645 00:37:19,142 --> 00:37:20,702 Speaker 1: the result of that. 646 00:37:21,542 --> 00:37:24,502 Speaker 2: So, yeah, this part's hard to talk about, I think 647 00:37:24,582 --> 00:37:27,262 Speaker 2: because it's really devastating. 648 00:37:27,262 --> 00:37:28,422 Speaker 3: Oh I find it devastating. 649 00:37:28,702 --> 00:37:35,462 Speaker 2: So Ralph and Matthew, the twenty two year old, received suspended. 650 00:37:34,942 --> 00:37:37,302 Speaker 1: Sentences, so no prison time was. 651 00:37:37,502 --> 00:37:40,502 Speaker 2: No prison time, absolutely none. They were found guilty of manslaughter, 652 00:37:40,622 --> 00:37:45,502 Speaker 2: but they didn't receive any prison time, which you know, 653 00:37:45,822 --> 00:37:48,662 Speaker 2: I could go on a rampage and sort of talk 654 00:37:48,662 --> 00:37:52,382 Speaker 2: about like why I think that is. But and then 655 00:37:52,662 --> 00:37:59,782 Speaker 2: David Kligner was sentenced to three months, and interestingly, Leanne, 656 00:38:00,302 --> 00:38:03,942 Speaker 2: the only other woman involved in the situation, was sentenced 657 00:38:03,982 --> 00:38:06,222 Speaker 2: to four months, which you know, is still nothing. But 658 00:38:06,542 --> 00:38:09,862 Speaker 2: I find it really interesting about this case that the 659 00:38:09,942 --> 00:38:13,782 Speaker 2: result of it is that the woman experienced the harshest 660 00:38:13,782 --> 00:38:16,382 Speaker 2: penalty when both ends. 661 00:38:16,022 --> 00:38:19,382 Speaker 1: Like when we know that the men, the young men. Yes, 662 00:38:19,422 --> 00:38:23,062 Speaker 1: we're doing a lot of the physical yes, like beating. 663 00:38:23,862 --> 00:38:27,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think you know, this case and why 664 00:38:27,982 --> 00:38:31,062 Speaker 2: this story is important is because it speaks to something 665 00:38:31,182 --> 00:38:35,102 Speaker 2: so much bigger that's going on. And yeah, I really 666 00:38:35,102 --> 00:38:38,502 Speaker 2: think that these the results from this trial are just 667 00:38:38,622 --> 00:38:42,462 Speaker 2: absolutely devastating for Joan, Like she just never received any 668 00:38:42,742 --> 00:38:46,342 Speaker 2: justice for what happened, and you know, Ralph went on 669 00:38:46,462 --> 00:38:52,502 Speaker 2: to remarry have another life after her, and yet the 670 00:38:52,542 --> 00:38:55,742 Speaker 2: only thing that remains of her is like the memory 671 00:38:55,822 --> 00:38:59,462 Speaker 2: that exists in podcasts like these ones and the story 672 00:38:59,502 --> 00:39:00,782 Speaker 2: of Furious Mattress the show. 673 00:39:02,142 --> 00:39:05,382 Speaker 1: Was there outrage at the time because reading that that 674 00:39:06,782 --> 00:39:09,342 Speaker 1: three of them well basically got to tap on the 675 00:39:09,382 --> 00:39:12,782 Speaker 1: wrist one of them got formal. What was the reaction 676 00:39:12,822 --> 00:39:15,702 Speaker 1: from Australia Because when I was doing research on this story, 677 00:39:15,782 --> 00:39:18,862 Speaker 1: it felt I kind of was wrecking my head being like, 678 00:39:18,902 --> 00:39:21,502 Speaker 1: where's the outrage? There's enough outrage. 679 00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:24,862 Speaker 2: It was interesting because what I've read about it is 680 00:39:24,862 --> 00:39:29,222 Speaker 2: that it divided the Antwerp community, but that on the whole, 681 00:39:29,342 --> 00:39:32,742 Speaker 2: like there just wasn't as much about it as there. 682 00:39:32,662 --> 00:39:33,262 Speaker 3: Should have been. 683 00:39:33,302 --> 00:39:35,342 Speaker 2: You know, like when you think about if that happened. Now, 684 00:39:35,502 --> 00:39:38,422 Speaker 2: I sort of I would hope that, you know, we 685 00:39:38,502 --> 00:39:41,062 Speaker 2: would be kicking up a fuss and trying you know, 686 00:39:41,142 --> 00:39:44,982 Speaker 2: maybe maybe maybe that's idealist to me, but yeah, I 687 00:39:45,062 --> 00:39:47,502 Speaker 2: just think that, you know, the way they spoke about 688 00:39:47,502 --> 00:39:49,862 Speaker 2: it was like beware of lone rangers who do not 689 00:39:49,902 --> 00:39:52,822 Speaker 2: come with the blessing or authority of a recognized denomination, 690 00:39:53,062 --> 00:39:55,822 Speaker 2: like sort of uses a warning story that came from 691 00:39:56,582 --> 00:39:59,182 Speaker 2: the head of the horse Horsham Salvation Army, which is 692 00:39:59,182 --> 00:40:01,862 Speaker 2: a town nearby to Antwerp. But you know, you're sort 693 00:40:01,862 --> 00:40:06,422 Speaker 2: of like, why was this not absolute outrage and discussed, 694 00:40:06,622 --> 00:40:09,862 Speaker 2: you know, across the whole country, Like I think at least, 695 00:40:10,302 --> 00:40:11,862 Speaker 2: or at least that's my understanding of it. 696 00:40:11,982 --> 00:40:15,102 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, when you kind of dipped into the project 697 00:40:15,182 --> 00:40:17,902 Speaker 1: the play, had you heard about this story? 698 00:40:18,662 --> 00:40:18,902 Speaker 3: Never? 699 00:40:19,542 --> 00:40:20,022 Speaker 1: Not? Ever? 700 00:40:20,302 --> 00:40:21,342 Speaker 3: I sort of didn't. 701 00:40:21,422 --> 00:40:23,222 Speaker 2: When I first read the show, I didn't realize that 702 00:40:23,262 --> 00:40:25,142 Speaker 2: it was based on a true story. And then when 703 00:40:25,182 --> 00:40:27,622 Speaker 2: we finished reading the play that night, I was reading 704 00:40:27,622 --> 00:40:29,502 Speaker 2: it with a group of friends and we finished reading 705 00:40:29,582 --> 00:40:32,342 Speaker 2: it and someone was like, I think this might be 706 00:40:32,382 --> 00:40:36,382 Speaker 2: based on a true story, and I was like, surely not, 707 00:40:36,662 --> 00:40:39,102 Speaker 2: Like what what do you mean? Like this would never happen, 708 00:40:39,222 --> 00:40:41,782 Speaker 2: and you know, to sort of then start to dig 709 00:40:41,822 --> 00:40:43,822 Speaker 2: in and to dig even further and then to sort 710 00:40:43,822 --> 00:40:45,902 Speaker 2: of find out all this stuff about the case was 711 00:40:45,982 --> 00:40:49,782 Speaker 2: just remarkable. Like I think, we think about these stories 712 00:40:49,782 --> 00:40:51,382 Speaker 2: and we sort of think about the States, or we 713 00:40:51,422 --> 00:40:53,102 Speaker 2: think about those sorts of things, and the fact that 714 00:40:53,142 --> 00:40:58,822 Speaker 2: it would happen here and has happened here is so scary. 715 00:40:59,222 --> 00:41:01,422 Speaker 2: I found it very scary that it could have happened 716 00:41:01,422 --> 00:41:02,102 Speaker 2: in the nineties. 717 00:41:02,142 --> 00:41:05,422 Speaker 1: And you know, do we know where these people are now? 718 00:41:05,462 --> 00:41:07,502 Speaker 1: Where Rolf, where Matthew, where Leanna are? 719 00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:13,342 Speaker 2: I do know that Matthew. Matthew runs a dream Builder's 720 00:41:13,422 --> 00:41:18,582 Speaker 2: church in Smithton with his wife Sharon, now, which you know, 721 00:41:18,862 --> 00:41:21,382 Speaker 2: to be honest, is utterly terrifying to me. You know, 722 00:41:21,462 --> 00:41:23,542 Speaker 2: I'm sure that from the age of twenty two to 723 00:41:23,622 --> 00:41:26,222 Speaker 2: now you grow up a lot, and you you know, 724 00:41:27,022 --> 00:41:31,302 Speaker 2: but the idea that there's still running spaces where vulnerable 725 00:41:31,342 --> 00:41:33,582 Speaker 2: people are turning to them in times of need. 726 00:41:34,102 --> 00:41:36,622 Speaker 3: After behavior like this is terrifying. 727 00:41:37,342 --> 00:41:41,342 Speaker 2: Leah died in twenty sixteen, and I'm not sure. 728 00:41:41,182 --> 00:41:44,342 Speaker 3: About Leanne or Ralph. I mean, I think Ralf. 729 00:41:44,342 --> 00:41:48,662 Speaker 2: Came out only very very recently and did make some 730 00:41:48,782 --> 00:41:52,902 Speaker 2: kind of statement potentially admitting that, you know, maybe if 731 00:41:52,902 --> 00:41:55,502 Speaker 2: you could go back, you maybe wouldn't do everything. 732 00:41:55,262 --> 00:41:56,022 Speaker 3: The way that you had. 733 00:41:56,062 --> 00:41:59,782 Speaker 2: But for years he was like, he claimed that maybe 734 00:41:59,822 --> 00:42:01,782 Speaker 2: she didn't want to come back because it was so 735 00:42:01,862 --> 00:42:04,262 Speaker 2: beautiful up in heaven, and that is an actual quote 736 00:42:04,382 --> 00:42:07,342 Speaker 2: that he said. So that belief sort of stayed, and 737 00:42:07,382 --> 00:42:09,662 Speaker 2: he was very adamant for years and years that like 738 00:42:09,702 --> 00:42:12,022 Speaker 2: they'd done the right thing and that if it was 739 00:42:12,062 --> 00:42:15,102 Speaker 2: God's plan for Joan to die, then that was the 740 00:42:15,102 --> 00:42:18,662 Speaker 2: plan that he had made, which I yeah, terrifying. 741 00:42:19,222 --> 00:42:22,022 Speaker 1: I know that the play is based on a true story, 742 00:42:22,062 --> 00:42:24,422 Speaker 1: but does it put any pressure on the questions that 743 00:42:24,462 --> 00:42:29,062 Speaker 1: we've explored about the justice system about Australia's response. What 744 00:42:29,142 --> 00:42:33,222 Speaker 1: are you hoping people get from knowing it's a true story. 745 00:42:34,502 --> 00:42:36,582 Speaker 2: I think that I hope that they see the parallels 746 00:42:36,582 --> 00:42:38,422 Speaker 2: with the amount of women that are still dying at 747 00:42:38,462 --> 00:42:40,902 Speaker 2: the hands of their partners right now in Australia. You know, 748 00:42:40,942 --> 00:42:43,062 Speaker 2: I think we hit one hundred last year, which is 749 00:42:43,182 --> 00:42:45,502 Speaker 2: you know, nearly close to one hundred, which is nearly 750 00:42:45,542 --> 00:42:47,262 Speaker 2: two a week, you know, and I think that where 751 00:42:47,942 --> 00:42:50,822 Speaker 2: we're not in good stead right now, domestic violence in 752 00:42:50,822 --> 00:42:55,142 Speaker 2: Australia is an absolute epidemic, like and there's just no 753 00:42:55,302 --> 00:42:59,342 Speaker 2: other way of describing it other than it's happening so often, 754 00:42:59,822 --> 00:43:02,062 Speaker 2: and it's not just here, you know, we are not 755 00:43:02,262 --> 00:43:05,542 Speaker 2: isolated in this. All around the world, this is still 756 00:43:05,662 --> 00:43:08,462 Speaker 2: such a massive issue. And like the fact that there 757 00:43:08,462 --> 00:43:12,542 Speaker 2: are so many women and girls not safe and children 758 00:43:12,702 --> 00:43:16,342 Speaker 2: not safe in their homes in a country that has 759 00:43:16,382 --> 00:43:18,702 Speaker 2: so much privilege and so much wealth and so much 760 00:43:19,342 --> 00:43:22,862 Speaker 2: possibilities of how we might be able to solve these issues, 761 00:43:22,982 --> 00:43:25,062 Speaker 2: the fact that we're still struggling with these issues speaks 762 00:43:25,062 --> 00:43:27,902 Speaker 2: to much larger cultural issues. And so I hope that 763 00:43:27,942 --> 00:43:31,502 Speaker 2: people come to see the show and that they think 764 00:43:31,542 --> 00:43:34,222 Speaker 2: of Joan, but they also think of the thousands and 765 00:43:34,262 --> 00:43:37,462 Speaker 2: thousands of women that are just like Joan, who are 766 00:43:37,582 --> 00:43:41,782 Speaker 2: also equally as forgotten, if not more forgotten, because you know, 767 00:43:41,902 --> 00:43:45,542 Speaker 2: Joan's story has kind of permeated through time only because 768 00:43:45,582 --> 00:43:48,182 Speaker 2: of the interesting nature of exorcism. You know, we love 769 00:43:48,262 --> 00:43:51,982 Speaker 2: films like The Exorcist. We love that kind of story 770 00:43:52,062 --> 00:43:54,822 Speaker 2: because it's so interesting and it's something other than this world. 771 00:43:54,902 --> 00:43:58,022 Speaker 2: And we love horror as a nation and as a 772 00:43:58,022 --> 00:44:02,022 Speaker 2: group of people on the whole really, and or you know, 773 00:44:02,062 --> 00:44:04,302 Speaker 2: at least the people listening to this podcast, I presumably 774 00:44:04,382 --> 00:44:10,702 Speaker 2: like horror, and it's sort of more the real horror. 775 00:44:10,782 --> 00:44:13,342 Speaker 3: And what I love about the play is that mel 776 00:44:13,422 --> 00:44:14,342 Speaker 3: has written. 777 00:44:14,022 --> 00:44:17,142 Speaker 2: A horror piece, but the real horror is actually the 778 00:44:17,182 --> 00:44:19,262 Speaker 2: idea of not being safe in your own home, and 779 00:44:19,302 --> 00:44:22,102 Speaker 2: that that is a real life horror. You know, we 780 00:44:22,142 --> 00:44:25,142 Speaker 2: can talk about, we can make jokes about crazy things 781 00:44:25,182 --> 00:44:28,622 Speaker 2: happening and objects coming to life and all the wonderful 782 00:44:28,662 --> 00:44:30,902 Speaker 2: things that happen as a part of the play and 783 00:44:31,022 --> 00:44:33,502 Speaker 2: as a part of so many horror films, But at 784 00:44:33,502 --> 00:44:35,822 Speaker 2: the end of the day, the real horror is the 785 00:44:35,822 --> 00:44:40,382 Speaker 2: simplicity of sitting across from your intimate partner and knowing 786 00:44:40,382 --> 00:44:43,062 Speaker 2: that that person could physically harm you, or might want 787 00:44:43,102 --> 00:44:46,422 Speaker 2: to if they are under the influence of alcohol or 788 00:44:46,902 --> 00:44:50,342 Speaker 2: something goes wrong or whatever it is. So yeah, I 789 00:44:50,342 --> 00:44:53,182 Speaker 2: think that's what I hope people think about as they 790 00:44:53,542 --> 00:44:54,422 Speaker 2: walk out of the show. 791 00:44:54,902 --> 00:44:57,662 Speaker 1: Do you think about Joan much in the creation of 792 00:44:57,662 --> 00:44:58,382 Speaker 1: this totally? 793 00:44:58,662 --> 00:45:02,382 Speaker 2: I think I feel I hope that the show's in 794 00:45:02,462 --> 00:45:06,662 Speaker 2: memory of her, But as I said, of all women 795 00:45:06,702 --> 00:45:10,062 Speaker 2: who've died in ways like this or been harmed in 796 00:45:10,102 --> 00:45:14,862 Speaker 2: ways this. I hope that people do read about the 797 00:45:14,942 --> 00:45:16,942 Speaker 2: original case. I hope it leads more people to think 798 00:45:16,982 --> 00:45:19,182 Speaker 2: about the fact that this is based on a true story. 799 00:45:19,182 --> 00:45:21,582 Speaker 2: I hope it leads to that, because, you know, I 800 00:45:21,622 --> 00:45:24,662 Speaker 2: think that sometimes we can isolate ourselves from stories like 801 00:45:24,702 --> 00:45:26,742 Speaker 2: this and say, you know, oh, that would never happen here, 802 00:45:26,982 --> 00:45:29,662 Speaker 2: and that's the whole point. Like it did and it 803 00:45:29,742 --> 00:45:32,422 Speaker 2: still does in various forms. 804 00:45:35,302 --> 00:45:38,062 Speaker 1: Thanks to Margaret for helping us to tell this story. 805 00:45:38,342 --> 00:45:41,342 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mum and mea podcast hosted 806 00:45:41,382 --> 00:45:44,422 Speaker 1: and produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with 807 00:45:44,502 --> 00:45:47,942 Speaker 1: audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. 808 00:45:48,262 --> 00:45:51,022 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation