WEBVTT - What A Midlife Madam Knows About Sex 0:00:21.290 --> 0:00:25.690 So you're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mamma Mia 0:00:25.770 --> 0:00:29.250 acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded 0:00:29.250 --> 0:00:32.690 this podcast on the Gadigul people of the Eora Nation. 0:00:33.450 --> 0:00:36.250 We pay our respects to their elders past and present, 0:00:36.650 --> 0:00:39.930 and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Raight 0:00:40.010 --> 0:00:40.930 Islander cultures. 0:00:41.290 --> 0:00:44.890 Hello, Sealed Section listeners, Thank you for letting me pop 0:00:44.930 --> 0:00:47.810 into your ears. My name's Holly Wayne Wright and I've 0:00:47.810 --> 0:00:50.490 got something special for you today. It's an episode from 0:00:50.530 --> 0:00:53.890 our podcast, Mid Conversations with gen X Women who are 0:00:53.890 --> 0:00:57.490 anything but hosted by me, and in this episode that 0:00:57.490 --> 0:00:59.490 we're popping in your feed, the reason we thought that 0:00:59.530 --> 0:01:02.770 you might like it in particular is it's a frank, 0:01:03.090 --> 0:01:08.370 shamefree and very interesting conversation about sex. I interviewed a 0:01:08.370 --> 0:01:11.570 woman called Antonia Murphy and her life took a very 0:01:11.650 --> 0:01:14.490 dramatic turn when her marriage fell apart when she was 0:01:14.570 --> 0:01:17.770 raising three kids in a small town in New Zealand. 0:01:18.610 --> 0:01:22.490 Lots of women make big changes after divorce, but Antonia's 0:01:22.730 --> 0:01:27.290 was kind of unexpected. She opened a legal, ethical brothel, 0:01:27.770 --> 0:01:31.330 and in this candid conversation, Antonia shares the events that 0:01:31.450 --> 0:01:34.730 led her to that what she learned about the women 0:01:34.770 --> 0:01:36.770 working at the brothel and what the men who went 0:01:36.810 --> 0:01:40.210 to the brothel wanted they were mostly men, and a 0:01:40.250 --> 0:01:43.410 great deal about sex and shame in a small town. 0:01:44.130 --> 0:01:44.330 Here. 0:01:44.370 --> 0:01:48.570 It is our very frank mid episode with Antonia Murphy. 0:01:49.690 --> 0:01:54.090 Ask for what you want, know your ground rules, and 0:01:54.210 --> 0:02:00.410 do not budge. Age is experience, and experience is hot 0:02:01.170 --> 0:02:06.370 and comforting and kind and hot. Say what it is 0:02:06.490 --> 0:02:10.210 you need and ask for what you want. It's not 0:02:10.250 --> 0:02:14.690 always about sex. It's about touch and connection and wanting 0:02:14.770 --> 0:02:17.570 to be wanted, and for some people some of the 0:02:17.650 --> 0:02:23.290 time it's as essential as breathing. But sometimes it's about sex, 0:02:23.490 --> 0:02:28.970 of course. Just ask for what you want. Welcome to 0:02:29.010 --> 0:02:32.890 a shame free zone. What a midlife madam learned about 0:02:32.970 --> 0:02:36.490 sex from years of juggling, pimping, as she somewhat ironically 0:02:36.490 --> 0:02:39.810 calls it, with the school run and a divorce. If 0:02:39.850 --> 0:02:43.810 you have questions, I'm glad because this is an extraordinary 0:02:43.890 --> 0:02:47.130 story of love and connection and lots and lots of 0:02:47.210 --> 0:02:50.970 pretty honest sex, of what men want and what women 0:02:51.050 --> 0:02:53.090 want and why. A lot of the stories we tell 0:02:53.090 --> 0:02:55.810 ourselves about all of that are nonsense. 0:02:56.690 --> 0:03:00.490 So please just ask for what it is you want. 0:03:05.130 --> 0:03:09.850 Hello, I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, 0:03:09.970 --> 0:03:13.530 mid family, mid blush. This is a first for us 0:03:13.570 --> 0:03:16.610 on mid Today, I'm interviewing someone who's already been here 0:03:16.930 --> 0:03:19.570 sort of. A few weeks ago, I spoke to the 0:03:19.610 --> 0:03:24.810 incredible Australia actress Rachel Griffiths about her midlife sabbatical, about 0:03:24.850 --> 0:03:28.850 having been on all ends of Hollywood, about actresses aging, 0:03:29.010 --> 0:03:31.890 about the role she's currently playing on our screens, a 0:03:31.930 --> 0:03:36.770 woman called Antonia Murphy in a show called Madam. And 0:03:36.810 --> 0:03:43.250 now today I'm interviewing Antonia Murphy herself. Antonia was raising 0:03:43.290 --> 0:03:46.730 three kids, including one with a serious disability, in a 0:03:46.810 --> 0:03:50.010 small town in New Zealand when her marriage unraveled. 0:03:50.650 --> 0:03:51.570 She's going to tell me. 0:03:51.570 --> 0:03:54.730 Today how that set of events led her to opening 0:03:54.770 --> 0:03:57.850 an ethical brothel in a tiny coastal town. I know 0:03:57.930 --> 0:04:00.850 it's not what everybody would do in that situation, but hey, 0:04:01.170 --> 0:04:05.890 Antonia has a very specific story. Sex work is decriminalized 0:04:05.890 --> 0:04:08.010 in New Zealand, so there was nothing illegal about what 0:04:08.050 --> 0:04:10.330 she was doing. But that didn't mean there wasn't a 0:04:10.370 --> 0:04:13.530 lot of judgment, and judgment is something we do a 0:04:13.530 --> 0:04:17.690 lot of unpicking today from all sides, because as well 0:04:17.730 --> 0:04:20.170 as understanding what the women who worked at the brothel 0:04:20.170 --> 0:04:23.730 wanted needed, she learned an enormous amount about what the 0:04:23.770 --> 0:04:27.330 clients and in this example, they're almost all men wanted 0:04:27.370 --> 0:04:30.610 and needed. And that is a lot more nuanced and 0:04:30.690 --> 0:04:32.210 complex than you might think. 0:04:32.650 --> 0:04:34.690 I promise stay with us. 0:04:35.130 --> 0:04:36.970 You're going to hear stories about the men who were 0:04:37.010 --> 0:04:40.330 dropped off by their mothers or their wives, a surprising 0:04:40.410 --> 0:04:43.570 fact about the preferred age of the women. About the 0:04:43.570 --> 0:04:48.250 worst thing any parent can imagine happening happening to Antonia. 0:04:48.330 --> 0:04:50.410 And generally you're going to be with me in the 0:04:50.450 --> 0:04:53.290 presence of a woman who looked at how you're supposed 0:04:53.290 --> 0:04:56.530 to carry on when you're a midlife regional mum and 0:04:56.650 --> 0:05:01.090 said fuck that. And of course you are going to 0:05:01.130 --> 0:05:02.970 hear about what it's like to have written a book 0:05:03.010 --> 0:05:05.730 about your life, have it turned into a TV show 0:05:06.130 --> 0:05:09.130 and for Rachel Griffiths to be playing you in a 0:05:09.250 --> 0:05:15.410 version of your life. Here we go, Anthony, your book 0:05:15.450 --> 0:05:19.010 is brilliant. You're a writer, of course, so you obviously 0:05:19.050 --> 0:05:22.770 know what you're doing, but the story is fascinating to 0:05:22.810 --> 0:05:26.850 put the audience in place as it were. Can I 0:05:26.930 --> 0:05:28.850 read the intro to an article that you wrote in 0:05:28.890 --> 0:05:31.090 the Huffington Post back in twenty nineteen. 0:05:31.690 --> 0:05:33.490 Oh sure, I think I know which one it is. 0:05:33.530 --> 0:05:34.010 Go ahead. 0:05:34.490 --> 0:05:36.570 I think this article kickstarted a few things. I think 0:05:36.610 --> 0:05:38.930 it was after reading this maybe that the TV people 0:05:38.970 --> 0:05:39.610 contacted you. 0:05:39.730 --> 0:05:40.330 Is that correct? 0:05:40.890 --> 0:05:42.170 An article that got optioned? 0:05:42.290 --> 0:05:44.970 Yeah? So are you right? Bye? 0:05:45.010 --> 0:05:48.010 Mom, I'll see you tomorrow morning. It's eight am on 0:05:48.050 --> 0:05:50.930 a Tuesday, and my workday probably started out a lot 0:05:50.970 --> 0:05:54.170 like yours, packing lunchboxes, making sure the kids eat a 0:05:54.250 --> 0:05:58.090 healthy breakfast, finding socks and shoes, and homework. But when 0:05:58.090 --> 0:06:00.370 my nine year old daughter Miranda kisses me goodbye to 0:06:00.410 --> 0:06:02.650 catch the school bus, she knows I won't be home 0:06:02.770 --> 0:06:04.170 until long after bedtime. 0:06:04.770 --> 0:06:08.650 That's because I'm a pimp. More politely, I'm. 0:06:08.450 --> 0:06:12.170 The Madam of the Batch, a feminist escort agency I 0:06:12.290 --> 0:06:16.170 own in the North Island of New Zealand. So let's 0:06:16.210 --> 0:06:18.210 get this part out there so a mid audience know 0:06:18.250 --> 0:06:22.490 what we're talking about. An ethical pimp, a feminist escort agency. 0:06:23.290 --> 0:06:25.370 What's that and how did it work? 0:06:26.170 --> 0:06:26.450 Well? 0:06:26.490 --> 0:06:28.490 I mean, let's be clear, I used the word pimp 0:06:28.490 --> 0:06:31.930 in that article because I was deliberately being inflammatory, right, 0:06:31.930 --> 0:06:35.250 I could they have thought, yeah, readers, readers on words. 0:06:35.570 --> 0:06:38.530 But what I meant when I said and still say, 0:06:38.610 --> 0:06:41.490 that we were an ethical and feminist escort agency is 0:06:41.490 --> 0:06:45.090 that we were constantly guided by consent at every stage 0:06:45.410 --> 0:06:48.530 of the process. The women were always in control of 0:06:48.610 --> 0:06:50.810 who they saw and what they would and would not 0:06:50.930 --> 0:06:52.290 choose to do with that client. 0:06:52.610 --> 0:06:53.490 And that went. 0:06:53.410 --> 0:06:57.650 From making the booking to allowing him into the room, 0:06:58.090 --> 0:07:01.770 to every step of the way during the appointment. 0:07:02.250 --> 0:07:03.730 And if for any. 0:07:03.530 --> 0:07:06.650 Reason he left and didn't pay, if they had taken 0:07:06.690 --> 0:07:09.930 off their clothes or sexual contact had started, I would 0:07:09.930 --> 0:07:13.290 pay them out anyway, So nobody was ever worried about 0:07:13.290 --> 0:07:15.530 all I've got to go through with this dodgy booking 0:07:15.610 --> 0:07:18.210 because I have to pay my electrical bill kind of thing. 0:07:19.410 --> 0:07:21.290 So you are, as the listeners will be able to 0:07:21.290 --> 0:07:25.810 tell from your accent originally from America, from the West coast. Yes, 0:07:26.770 --> 0:07:29.370 But by the time you open the batch, you're living 0:07:29.370 --> 0:07:32.290 in a tiny town, like not in Auckland, but like 0:07:32.450 --> 0:07:35.450 a in a little country town in Northland, which is 0:07:35.850 --> 0:07:39.170 a beautiful part of New Zealand. And you're there, your 0:07:39.730 --> 0:07:43.850 marriage is rocky, falling apart at this particular point. 0:07:44.050 --> 0:07:45.130 You've got two kids. 0:07:46.010 --> 0:07:49.370 You do your start doing your research, knowing you want 0:07:49.410 --> 0:07:54.050 to open a an escort agency, but you're starting from nothing. 0:07:54.250 --> 0:07:57.930 How did you learn that you know the sort of 0:07:58.010 --> 0:08:00.330 rules and guidelines that you've just spelled out for us 0:08:00.330 --> 0:08:02.730 that made this a feminist, safe place to work for 0:08:02.770 --> 0:08:05.930 the women. How did you learn that's what you wanted 0:08:05.930 --> 0:08:06.250 to do? 0:08:07.210 --> 0:08:11.810 So women always exchange information with each other, whether they're 0:08:11.850 --> 0:08:15.890 talking about something legal or not. Right, I think at 0:08:15.930 --> 0:08:18.970 every stage in my life, I've always had a woman 0:08:19.050 --> 0:08:22.930 or a girlfriend who I could and get the honest 0:08:22.970 --> 0:08:26.810 truth about something. And it turns out there's this whole 0:08:26.890 --> 0:08:31.370 online community of anonymous sex workers and people who work 0:08:31.370 --> 0:08:35.850 in the business who exchange information everything about what makes 0:08:36.050 --> 0:08:39.970 a good agency to work at, somebody who protects your rights, 0:08:40.570 --> 0:08:43.650 to how to stay safe in a booking And it 0:08:43.690 --> 0:08:46.770 was they who taught me how to design a place 0:08:47.050 --> 0:08:51.130 where the women's rights were held at the forefront of 0:08:51.170 --> 0:08:53.930 everything that we did. And then, you know, this didn't 0:08:53.930 --> 0:08:55.890 make it into the book. But when I was still. 0:08:55.690 --> 0:08:58.010 Married to my husband, I sent him down to a. 0:08:57.970 --> 0:09:01.410 Couple of places in Auckland, like so called good brothels 0:09:01.490 --> 0:09:03.610 or escort agencies to check it out, and he came 0:09:03.610 --> 0:09:06.490 back and he said, oh my god, it's so depressing, 0:09:06.730 --> 0:09:09.690 Like it's you go into this place. It's sort of 0:09:09.770 --> 0:09:13.810 lit by these cheesy Christmas lights. There's like a vinyl 0:09:14.650 --> 0:09:18.970 couch that gets wiped off between bookings. He's like, there's 0:09:19.010 --> 0:09:22.250 a lot of glitzy gland me stuff that's supposed to 0:09:22.330 --> 0:09:27.250 look elegant and classy, but it's just makes me sad, like, oh, 0:09:27.370 --> 0:09:29.410 I think we could do things a bit better than that. 0:09:30.410 --> 0:09:30.970 And so the. 0:09:30.930 --> 0:09:34.770 Batch you end up opening is in a motel and 0:09:34.930 --> 0:09:38.890 you make it bright and breezy and like a beach almost, like, well, 0:09:38.890 --> 0:09:40.610 that's what a batch is in New Zealand, right, is 0:09:40.610 --> 0:09:44.370 a beach house. And so everything from the inception of 0:09:44.370 --> 0:09:46.170 what it would look like and feel like to the 0:09:46.210 --> 0:09:47.610 way that the workers. 0:09:47.770 --> 0:09:49.690 Were treated was very different. 0:09:50.610 --> 0:09:53.330 I was really interested in the process that you were 0:09:53.370 --> 0:09:56.810 just talking about about the research going and talking to women. 0:09:57.530 --> 0:09:59.090 You talk to a woman in. 0:09:59.010 --> 0:10:01.370 The sex industry who tells you that it's all about 0:10:01.370 --> 0:10:03.850 being a madam or a sex worker is all about 0:10:03.890 --> 0:10:08.410 hold your power, she said, And I'd love you to 0:10:08.450 --> 0:10:11.170 talk a bit about what that means, because to be honest. 0:10:11.690 --> 0:10:14.410 When I read examples in the book of where you 0:10:15.090 --> 0:10:18.170 helped you thought about that and implemented it. I think 0:10:18.170 --> 0:10:20.930 it's something that all women sex workers are or not 0:10:21.570 --> 0:10:24.650 could get a lot better at. Does it kind of. 0:10:24.690 --> 0:10:26.490 Mean whole know you're worth? 0:10:28.250 --> 0:10:30.290 Yeah, I think that's part of it, and we can 0:10:30.330 --> 0:10:32.250 get into that part of it too. In that I 0:10:32.330 --> 0:10:34.850 learned a lot from the men about asking for what 0:10:34.930 --> 0:10:37.210 you want and not being afraid to ask, even if 0:10:37.250 --> 0:10:38.650 it comes off as a bit cheeky. 0:10:39.410 --> 0:10:40.490 But I think. 0:10:41.010 --> 0:10:43.330 When she taught me about hold your power, I think 0:10:43.330 --> 0:10:48.370 there's a reason why madams traditionally have been sexually unavailable 0:10:48.450 --> 0:10:51.690 to the clients for the most part, and often older, 0:10:51.810 --> 0:10:56.130 so that culturally they're considered no longer sexually interesting. Right 0:10:56.250 --> 0:11:01.210 Because I had on regularly, I would get proposition by clients. 0:11:01.210 --> 0:11:03.370 They would try to find their way in around the 0:11:03.370 --> 0:11:04.530 cracks and ask. 0:11:04.410 --> 0:11:07.650 All, will you see me? I'll pay top dollar? How 0:11:07.730 --> 0:11:10.810 much would you charge? How can I please? Please? Please? 0:11:11.090 --> 0:11:13.490 And what that's about is they feel like if they 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:14.530 can conquer. 0:11:14.170 --> 0:11:16.970 You sexually, then they've won you over and they don't 0:11:16.970 --> 0:11:19.450 have to play by your rules anymore. So I think 0:11:19.490 --> 0:11:22.090 it's that's why it's so, That's why I think that 0:11:22.250 --> 0:11:26.810 madam position has existed traditionally, is that you need a 0:11:26.850 --> 0:11:31.370 woman in charge who is sexually unavailable and completely unmoving 0:11:31.570 --> 0:11:32.690 in her ground rules. 0:11:33.490 --> 0:11:35.970 That's interesting what you just said about how age plays 0:11:35.970 --> 0:11:38.570 into that, because it is true, of course that the 0:11:38.610 --> 0:11:42.010 stereotype of a madam in my mind is definitely she's 0:11:42.050 --> 0:11:45.130 older than the women who work who do the sex work. 0:11:45.690 --> 0:11:47.850 In your experience, I mean, I want to I'm going 0:11:47.930 --> 0:11:49.530 to get to all the things you've learned about men 0:11:49.610 --> 0:11:51.530 doing in that process. 0:11:51.570 --> 0:11:55.410 But is there an age cut off? Do you feel 0:11:55.450 --> 0:11:57.130 like not at all? 0:11:57.210 --> 0:11:58.970 In fact, when you said that, I wanted to jump 0:11:59.010 --> 0:12:01.130 in because the lady who made the most money at 0:12:01.170 --> 0:12:05.490 our agency was older than me. And the reason why well, 0:12:05.530 --> 0:12:07.570 there's a few reasons why she made the most money. 0:12:07.610 --> 0:12:10.410 She was highly professional, and she organized, and she would 0:12:10.450 --> 0:12:12.970 come in with a large Duffel bag for what we 0:12:13.010 --> 0:12:15.290 called her day at the office because she had back 0:12:15.330 --> 0:12:18.090 to back bookings of these elderly gents who would book 0:12:18.130 --> 0:12:20.530 her for two and three hours at a time, and 0:12:21.130 --> 0:12:23.610 she would put on a different lingerie. 0:12:23.090 --> 0:12:25.570 Outfit for each one, and there was very little sex. 0:12:25.610 --> 0:12:31.490 It was largely companionship. But she was really intuitively kind. 0:12:31.610 --> 0:12:35.370 She was so genuinely kind. People really responded to that, 0:12:36.090 --> 0:12:37.330 and she made the. 0:12:37.250 --> 0:12:39.610 Most money, so it really And the other reason is 0:12:39.610 --> 0:12:41.770 that a lot of these guys who come and see 0:12:41.770 --> 0:12:43.970 sex workers, if they're in their seventies and eighties, they 0:12:43.970 --> 0:12:46.050 don't want to see a lady in her twenties. They're like, 0:12:46.130 --> 0:12:48.450 my granddaughter is in her twenties. That makes me feel 0:12:48.450 --> 0:12:52.490 like a pedo. So there really isn't a cutoff, I 0:12:52.490 --> 0:12:55.130 would say in age for sex work, and quite often 0:12:55.170 --> 0:12:58.370 the older ones do better. And in fact it was 0:12:58.410 --> 0:13:00.730 a bit of a red flag for me and the 0:13:00.810 --> 0:13:04.050 other managers when we would get a new client in particular, 0:13:04.090 --> 0:13:06.410 who would say who's the youngest? 0:13:06.450 --> 0:13:07.210 Who's the youngest? 0:13:07.250 --> 0:13:11.050 Because what that means is is either a he thinks 0:13:11.170 --> 0:13:14.330 that women's quality degrades with age, which is a big 0:13:14.370 --> 0:13:17.810 red flag, or more likely B he thinks he'll have 0:13:17.810 --> 0:13:20.170 a better chance pushing her boundaries if she's young. 0:13:20.930 --> 0:13:23.610 Absolutely, and there is an experience in there with a 0:13:23.610 --> 0:13:27.010 man like that. Just back for one more second to 0:13:27.050 --> 0:13:29.570 hold your power. One of the first times in the 0:13:29.570 --> 0:13:32.530 book that you like you think about doing that is 0:13:32.530 --> 0:13:35.610 when a client is trying to talk you down on price. 0:13:36.610 --> 0:13:37.930 And this is what I'd love to get to about 0:13:37.930 --> 0:13:40.210 that idea of saying what you need and what you 0:13:40.250 --> 0:13:42.890 want trying to talk you down in price. And this 0:13:43.010 --> 0:13:44.890 is when the batch has just opened, and so you're 0:13:44.970 --> 0:13:49.010 kind of like figuring it out and you were like, no, 0:13:49.090 --> 0:13:50.690 I'm going to hold it and see what happens. And 0:13:50.730 --> 0:13:54.210 of course he caves and says, sure, is that also? 0:13:54.690 --> 0:13:56.090 Is it about also not. 0:13:56.290 --> 0:14:00.210 The people pleasing the man pleasing reflex? 0:14:00.890 --> 0:14:03.450 Oh, it was really hard to deprogram ourselves from that. 0:14:04.210 --> 0:14:05.210 I can still remember. 0:14:05.330 --> 0:14:05.490 You know. 0:14:05.530 --> 0:14:08.050 We had a confirmation text that we would send when 0:14:08.050 --> 0:14:10.290 people made a booking that said you must park in 0:14:10.330 --> 0:14:13.450 this place, arrive on time for your booking, do not 0:14:13.610 --> 0:14:16.050 arrive early, do not arrive late, and so on. And 0:14:16.130 --> 0:14:18.090 the first draft I looked at it and I saw 0:14:18.130 --> 0:14:21.210 that we'd started almost every sentence with please, and I 0:14:21.250 --> 0:14:23.250 was like, we got to take the pleases out of 0:14:23.290 --> 0:14:25.810 this one, because I'm not asking them, I'm telling them. 0:14:26.170 --> 0:14:29.050 So that was really a process for us to work 0:14:29.090 --> 0:14:29.490 that out. 0:14:29.890 --> 0:14:33.690 And yeah, I mean it became quite clear early early on, 0:14:34.010 --> 0:14:37.810 so early the men would would push back on the rules, 0:14:38.250 --> 0:14:42.770 and also they would always ask for discounts and then 0:14:42.810 --> 0:14:45.050 and then not always, but very often they would want 0:14:45.090 --> 0:14:46.970 to know, can I do this? Can I do that? 0:14:47.090 --> 0:14:49.970 How about three of this? How far can I go? 0:14:50.130 --> 0:14:51.810 How hard can I say bad words? 0:14:51.850 --> 0:14:52.050 Yeah? 0:14:52.090 --> 0:14:53.850 With you hard? Can I fuck her? 0:14:53.930 --> 0:14:56.930 Things like that, I mean, sometimes quite gross, But I 0:14:56.970 --> 0:14:58.770 think a lot of them just thought they were being 0:14:58.930 --> 0:15:01.090 clear about the boundaries and they wanted to make sure 0:15:01.090 --> 0:15:04.130 they got the best deal possible for their money, which, Okay, 0:15:04.370 --> 0:15:08.890 it annoyed us, and sometimes we laughed uproariously about it, 0:15:09.250 --> 0:15:11.770 but also like, why. 0:15:11.530 --> 0:15:12.970 Don't we do that more as women? 0:15:13.050 --> 0:15:15.570 I don't know about you, but me personally, Like even 0:15:15.610 --> 0:15:19.410 the least I negotiated on the motel. A year down 0:15:19.490 --> 0:15:21.610 the line, it was quite clear that I had made 0:15:21.650 --> 0:15:24.690 some mistakes in my negotiation where I could have I 0:15:24.730 --> 0:15:27.210 could have had that motel ticking along at a much 0:15:27.210 --> 0:15:29.890 better clip, but I just hadn't. I hadn't pushed back 0:15:29.930 --> 0:15:32.930 with the landlord because I think I thought if I pushed, 0:15:33.010 --> 0:15:36.250 he'd yank the whole thing away, which is not the case. 0:15:36.410 --> 0:15:38.810 It's not You're not going to lose everything. If you ask, 0:15:39.690 --> 0:15:42.050 people are just going to say maybe no, And it 0:15:42.130 --> 0:15:42.890 doesn't hurt. 0:15:42.890 --> 0:15:46.410 Right, I know, but I mean such a stereotype, but 0:15:46.450 --> 0:15:49.130 I know it certainly is true of myself and lots 0:15:49.170 --> 0:15:52.610 of midwomen. I know in particular that's what they're afraid of. 0:15:52.690 --> 0:15:54.010 But I could lose it all. I don't know if 0:15:54.010 --> 0:15:56.090 I deserve it. I don't know if I'm gonning. And it's. 0:15:57.490 --> 0:15:59.450 A few of the conversations I've had on this show 0:15:59.650 --> 0:16:01.890 that have been enlightening is when people say, very often, 0:16:01.890 --> 0:16:03.690 when you ask for what you want, you get it. 0:16:04.370 --> 0:16:04.770 Mm hmm. 0:16:05.010 --> 0:16:07.370 You know, but it's all about how you do that 0:16:07.850 --> 0:16:10.170 I did. There isn't There isn't a moment in your 0:16:10.170 --> 0:16:12.170 book where which i'd like to think is known in 0:16:12.250 --> 0:16:14.330 New Zealand moment but maybe not where one man offers 0:16:14.330 --> 0:16:20.130 to pay and crayfish. 0:16:18.410 --> 0:16:21.090 Is particular to New Zealand. But I wouldn't be surprise 0:16:21.170 --> 0:16:22.450 the burter is pretty calm. 0:16:22.570 --> 0:16:24.410 I mean, I can tell you for real. Border for 0:16:24.490 --> 0:16:26.010 drugs is definitely yes. 0:16:29.290 --> 0:16:30.730 Antonia and I are going to be back in a 0:16:30.730 --> 0:16:32.930 minute to talk about the kinds of men who pay 0:16:33.010 --> 0:16:36.330 for sex and the unconventional way in which she ended 0:16:36.410 --> 0:16:40.490 up with her now husband. It does involve somebody getting 0:16:40.530 --> 0:16:44.290 punched in the nose, just stepping back a little bit. 0:16:44.570 --> 0:16:48.290 You say that, and I felt a gen x camaraderie 0:16:48.330 --> 0:16:50.330 with you about this. You were sort of saying that 0:16:50.370 --> 0:16:52.690 you had quite you had an adventuress, You had a 0:16:52.690 --> 0:16:55.130 non conventional childhood, you say. I seen you rite When 0:16:55.130 --> 0:16:57.490 I was six months old, my mother's went. My mother 0:16:57.530 --> 0:17:00.210 went to the United Nations Women's Conference in Mexico City, 0:17:00.290 --> 0:17:01.290 leaving me with my dad. 0:17:01.730 --> 0:17:02.890 My father decided this. 0:17:02.930 --> 0:17:04.730 Was a good time to attend the Hooker's Ball at 0:17:04.730 --> 0:17:07.610 the San Francisco Higatt Regency with me swaddled in a 0:17:07.610 --> 0:17:10.370 blanket in the backseat of his car. It was nineteen 0:17:10.450 --> 0:17:14.650 seventy five. These things happened back then, and indeed they did. 0:17:15.810 --> 0:17:18.850 Our nineteen seventies upbringings were kind of different. 0:17:18.610 --> 0:17:20.890 I think, and whearin as she got on the next 0:17:20.890 --> 0:17:21.410 flight home. 0:17:22.490 --> 0:17:23.570 I'm sure she did. 0:17:25.210 --> 0:17:26.570 But I think the reason. 0:17:26.290 --> 0:17:29.290 Why he went to that is because my mother was 0:17:29.610 --> 0:17:33.610 sort of somewhat friends are at least friendly with Margo 0:17:33.730 --> 0:17:36.930 Saint James, who was a big sex worker rights activist 0:17:36.970 --> 0:17:38.570 and feminist in San Francisco. 0:17:38.650 --> 0:17:40.810 So they were peripherally around that scene. 0:17:41.730 --> 0:17:43.370 And I know my mother as a second way a 0:17:43.410 --> 0:17:47.730 feminist would talk a lot about the crossover between sex 0:17:47.770 --> 0:17:49.810 work and being a housewife. 0:17:49.530 --> 0:17:50.170 For example. 0:17:50.850 --> 0:17:52.570 I want to ask you about that too. But that's 0:17:52.650 --> 0:17:54.690 interesting because you also say in the book at some 0:17:54.810 --> 0:17:59.130 point that the rules you'd internalize from your dad were 0:17:59.170 --> 0:18:03.050 around like don't be a prick tease, don't wear a 0:18:03.090 --> 0:18:05.050 short skirt, don't do this and that. 0:18:05.170 --> 0:18:07.370 So it's like they're conflicting. 0:18:07.610 --> 0:18:10.730 You obviously had a sort of compared to a conventional 0:18:10.890 --> 0:18:14.530 straight lag childhood, a relatively what's the right word, I 0:18:14.530 --> 0:18:18.650 guess put me in there you go, But you also 0:18:18.690 --> 0:18:21.850 were still internalizing all that messaging that women, young women 0:18:21.890 --> 0:18:26.330 always do right about, like protect yourself, make sure you know, 0:18:27.050 --> 0:18:29.170 don't lead men on, all that kind of stuff. 0:18:29.250 --> 0:18:31.130 Yeah, well, I think a lot of that is generational. 0:18:31.210 --> 0:18:33.570 So my dad was born in the twenties and my 0:18:33.650 --> 0:18:35.650 mom was born in the thirties. So even though my 0:18:35.730 --> 0:18:40.970 mom was a strident feminist, I think her attitude was like, look, 0:18:41.370 --> 0:18:46.010 if you you know, you show nipple and and wear 0:18:46.010 --> 0:18:49.130 a really short mini skirt, you're gonna get aggressive attention, 0:18:49.450 --> 0:18:51.970 so be prepared for that. It can make you, know, 0:18:52.010 --> 0:18:54.930 your walk home that much more dangerous. Nowadays, you know, 0:18:55.050 --> 0:18:58.290 people say, oh, it's not her fault, it's his fault. 0:18:58.370 --> 0:19:00.050 She should be able to wear what she wants, and 0:19:00.050 --> 0:19:02.250 they're absolutely right. Women should be able to wear what 0:19:02.250 --> 0:19:04.970 they want. Also, I don't think my mother was wrong 0:19:05.050 --> 0:19:06.570 that the micro mini is gonna make. 0:19:06.450 --> 0:19:08.210 Your walk home a lot more complicated. 0:19:08.290 --> 0:19:11.410 To be honest, it makes it's interesting because I have 0:19:11.450 --> 0:19:14.530 a fifteen year old daughter. You know, we would it's 0:19:15.250 --> 0:19:18.890 we're so much further along from this idea of like 0:19:19.090 --> 0:19:22.250 keep yourself safe, do your top up, as your dad 0:19:22.290 --> 0:19:24.810 would say. But there's a part of you that has 0:19:24.890 --> 0:19:28.330 learned those lessons yourself from being hyper visible at that 0:19:28.450 --> 0:19:31.410 moment where you become hyper visible and you want to 0:19:31.490 --> 0:19:34.650 kind of protect them from it, and it's it's complicated. 0:19:35.690 --> 0:19:38.330 It is complicated, and in fairness, I think we've come 0:19:38.330 --> 0:19:42.050 a long way, and we've also taken a huge step 0:19:42.090 --> 0:19:45.970 backward with the amount of pornography that is so easily 0:19:45.970 --> 0:19:49.330 accessible in everybody's back pocket and that apparently everyone's watching. 0:19:49.050 --> 0:19:49.850 From the age of ten. 0:19:50.370 --> 0:19:53.210 I know, and I saw how that played out at 0:19:53.290 --> 0:19:58.250 the batch, and it was everything from asking for sort 0:19:58.250 --> 0:20:00.370 of further and further out fantasies and it would be 0:20:00.410 --> 0:20:03.490 quite clear when a certain fantasy was trending in porn, 0:20:03.570 --> 0:20:06.250 because more and more men would ask for it. Two 0:20:06.370 --> 0:20:11.490 men who literally could not orgasm having vaginal sex with 0:20:11.530 --> 0:20:14.890 a woman because they were so used to jacking it 0:20:14.890 --> 0:20:16.930 with porn, and so they got used to this very 0:20:16.970 --> 0:20:19.730 specific touch and they could no longer orgasm with a woman. 0:20:19.890 --> 0:20:23.490 So oh, and then just like the total death of foreplay, 0:20:23.810 --> 0:20:25.890 Like how many young men would get in there and 0:20:25.930 --> 0:20:27.410 think that all they had to do was put her 0:20:27.450 --> 0:20:29.490