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Speaker 1: So you're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mamma Mia

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Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded

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Speaker 1: this podcast on the Gadigul people of the Eora Nation.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to their elders past and present,

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Speaker 1: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Raight

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Speaker 1: Islander cultures.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Sealed Section listeners, Thank you for letting me pop

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Speaker 2: into your ears. My name's Holly Wayne Wright and I've

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Speaker 2: got something special for you today. It's an episode from

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Speaker 2: our podcast, Mid Conversations with gen X Women who are

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Speaker 2: anything but hosted by me, and in this episode that

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Speaker 2: we're popping in your feed, the reason we thought that

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Speaker 2: you might like it in particular is it's a frank,

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Speaker 2: shamefree and very interesting conversation about sex. I interviewed a

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Speaker 2: woman called Antonia Murphy and her life took a very

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Speaker 2: dramatic turn when her marriage fell apart when she was

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Speaker 2: raising three kids in a small town in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Lots of women make big changes after divorce, but Antonia's

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Speaker 2: was kind of unexpected. She opened a legal, ethical brothel,

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Speaker 2: and in this candid conversation, Antonia shares the events that

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Speaker 2: led her to that what she learned about the women

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Speaker 2: working at the brothel and what the men who went

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Speaker 2: to the brothel wanted they were mostly men, and a

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Speaker 2: great deal about sex and shame in a small town.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 2: It is our very frank mid episode with Antonia Murphy.

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Speaker 2: Ask for what you want, know your ground rules, and

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Speaker 2: do not budge. Age is experience, and experience is hot

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Speaker 2: and comforting and kind and hot. Say what it is

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Speaker 2: you need and ask for what you want. It's not

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Speaker 2: always about sex. It's about touch and connection and wanting

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Speaker 2: to be wanted, and for some people some of the

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Speaker 2: time it's as essential as breathing. But sometimes it's about sex,

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Speaker 2: of course. Just ask for what you want. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: a shame free zone. What a midlife madam learned about

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Speaker 2: sex from years of juggling, pimping, as she somewhat ironically

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Speaker 2: calls it, with the school run and a divorce. If

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Speaker 2: you have questions, I'm glad because this is an extraordinary

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Speaker 2: story of love and connection and lots and lots of

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Speaker 2: pretty honest sex, of what men want and what women

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Speaker 2: want and why. A lot of the stories we tell

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Speaker 2: ourselves about all of that are nonsense.

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Speaker 4: So please just ask for what it is you want.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,

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Speaker 2: mid family, mid blush. This is a first for us

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Speaker 2: on mid Today, I'm interviewing someone who's already been here

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Speaker 2: sort of. A few weeks ago, I spoke to the

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Speaker 2: incredible Australia actress Rachel Griffiths about her midlife sabbatical, about

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Speaker 2: having been on all ends of Hollywood, about actresses aging,

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Speaker 2: about the role she's currently playing on our screens, a

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Speaker 2: woman called Antonia Murphy in a show called Madam. And

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Speaker 2: now today I'm interviewing Antonia Murphy herself. Antonia was raising

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Speaker 2: three kids, including one with a serious disability, in a

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Speaker 2: small town in New Zealand when her marriage unraveled.

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Speaker 4: She's going to tell me.

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Speaker 2: Today how that set of events led her to opening

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Speaker 2: an ethical brothel in a tiny coastal town. I know

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Speaker 2: it's not what everybody would do in that situation, but hey,

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Speaker 2: Antonia has a very specific story. Sex work is decriminalized

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand, so there was nothing illegal about what

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Speaker 2: she was doing. But that didn't mean there wasn't a

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Speaker 2: lot of judgment, and judgment is something we do a

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Speaker 2: lot of unpicking today from all sides, because as well

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Speaker 2: as understanding what the women who worked at the brothel

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Speaker 2: wanted needed, she learned an enormous amount about what the

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Speaker 2: clients and in this example, they're almost all men wanted

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Speaker 2: and needed. And that is a lot more nuanced and

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Speaker 2: complex than you might think.

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Speaker 4: I promise stay with us.

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Speaker 2: You're going to hear stories about the men who were

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Speaker 2: dropped off by their mothers or their wives, a surprising

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Speaker 2: fact about the preferred age of the women. About the

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Speaker 2: worst thing any parent can imagine happening happening to Antonia.

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Speaker 2: And generally you're going to be with me in the

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Speaker 2: presence of a woman who looked at how you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to carry on when you're a midlife regional mum and

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Speaker 2: said fuck that. And of course you are going to

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Speaker 2: hear about what it's like to have written a book

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Speaker 2: about your life, have it turned into a TV show

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Speaker 2: and for Rachel Griffiths to be playing you in a

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Speaker 2: version of your life. Here we go, Anthony, your book

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Speaker 2: is brilliant. You're a writer, of course, so you obviously

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Speaker 2: know what you're doing, but the story is fascinating to

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Speaker 2: put the audience in place as it were. Can I

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Speaker 2: read the intro to an article that you wrote in

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Speaker 2: the Huffington Post back in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 5: Oh sure, I think I know which one it is.

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Speaker 5: Go ahead.

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Speaker 2: I think this article kickstarted a few things. I think

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Speaker 2: it was after reading this maybe that the TV people

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Speaker 2: contacted you.

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Speaker 4: Is that correct?

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Speaker 5: An article that got optioned?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So are you right? Bye?

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Speaker 2: Mom, I'll see you tomorrow morning. It's eight am on

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Speaker 2: a Tuesday, and my workday probably started out a lot

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Speaker 2: like yours, packing lunchboxes, making sure the kids eat a

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Speaker 2: healthy breakfast, finding socks and shoes, and homework. But when

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Speaker 2: my nine year old daughter Miranda kisses me goodbye to

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Speaker 2: catch the school bus, she knows I won't be home

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Speaker 2: until long after bedtime.

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Speaker 4: That's because I'm a pimp. More politely, I'm.

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Speaker 2: The Madam of the Batch, a feminist escort agency I

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Speaker 2: own in the North Island of New Zealand. So let's

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Speaker 2: get this part out there so a mid audience know

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about. An ethical pimp, a feminist escort agency.

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Speaker 4: What's that and how did it work?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 3: I mean, let's be clear, I used the word pimp

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Speaker 3: in that article because I was deliberately being inflammatory, right,

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Speaker 3: I could they have thought, yeah, readers, readers on words.

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Speaker 3: But what I meant when I said and still say,

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Speaker 3: that we were an ethical and feminist escort agency is

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Speaker 3: that we were constantly guided by consent at every stage

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Speaker 3: of the process. The women were always in control of

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Speaker 3: who they saw and what they would and would not

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Speaker 3: choose to do with that client.

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Speaker 5: And that went.

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Speaker 3: From making the booking to allowing him into the room,

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Speaker 3: to every step of the way during the appointment.

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Speaker 5: And if for any.

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Speaker 3: Reason he left and didn't pay, if they had taken

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Speaker 3: off their clothes or sexual contact had started, I would

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Speaker 3: pay them out anyway, So nobody was ever worried about

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Speaker 3: all I've got to go through with this dodgy booking

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Speaker 3: because I have to pay my electrical bill kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: So you are, as the listeners will be able to

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Speaker 2: tell from your accent originally from America, from the West coast. Yes,

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Speaker 2: But by the time you open the batch, you're living

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Speaker 2: in a tiny town, like not in Auckland, but like

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Speaker 2: a in a little country town in Northland, which is

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Speaker 2: a beautiful part of New Zealand. And you're there, your

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Speaker 2: marriage is rocky, falling apart at this particular point.

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Speaker 4: You've got two kids.

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Speaker 2: You do your start doing your research, knowing you want

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Speaker 2: to open a an escort agency, but you're starting from nothing.

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Speaker 2: How did you learn that you know the sort of

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Speaker 2: rules and guidelines that you've just spelled out for us

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Speaker 2: that made this a feminist, safe place to work for

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Speaker 2: the women. How did you learn that's what you wanted

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 3: So women always exchange information with each other, whether they're

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Speaker 3: talking about something legal or not. Right, I think at

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Speaker 3: every stage in my life, I've always had a woman

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Speaker 3: or a girlfriend who I could and get the honest

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Speaker 3: truth about something. And it turns out there's this whole

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Speaker 3: online community of anonymous sex workers and people who work

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Speaker 3: in the business who exchange information everything about what makes

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Speaker 3: a good agency to work at, somebody who protects your rights,

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Speaker 3: to how to stay safe in a booking And it

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Speaker 3: was they who taught me how to design a place

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Speaker 3: where the women's rights were held at the forefront of

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Speaker 3: everything that we did. And then, you know, this didn't

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Speaker 3: make it into the book. But when I was still.

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Speaker 5: Married to my husband, I sent him down to a.

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Speaker 3: Couple of places in Auckland, like so called good brothels

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Speaker 3: or escort agencies to check it out, and he came

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Speaker 3: back and he said, oh my god, it's so depressing,

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Speaker 3: Like it's you go into this place. It's sort of

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Speaker 3: lit by these cheesy Christmas lights. There's like a vinyl

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Speaker 3: couch that gets wiped off between bookings. He's like, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of glitzy gland me stuff that's supposed to

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Speaker 3: look elegant and classy, but it's just makes me sad, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I think we could do things a bit better than that.

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Speaker 4: And so the.

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Speaker 2: Batch you end up opening is in a motel and

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Speaker 2: you make it bright and breezy and like a beach almost, like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's what a batch is in New Zealand, right, is

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Speaker 2: a beach house. And so everything from the inception of

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Speaker 2: what it would look like and feel like to the

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Speaker 2: way that the workers.

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Speaker 4: Were treated was very different.

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Speaker 2: I was really interested in the process that you were

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Speaker 2: just talking about about the research going and talking to women.

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Speaker 4: You talk to a woman in.

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Speaker 2: The sex industry who tells you that it's all about

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Speaker 2: being a madam or a sex worker is all about

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Speaker 2: hold your power, she said, And I'd love you to

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Speaker 2: talk a bit about what that means, because to be honest.

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Speaker 2: When I read examples in the book of where you

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Speaker 2: helped you thought about that and implemented it. I think

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Speaker 2: it's something that all women sex workers are or not

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Speaker 2: could get a lot better at. Does it kind of.

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Speaker 4: Mean whole know you're worth?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's part of it, and we can

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Speaker 3: get into that part of it too. In that I

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Speaker 3: learned a lot from the men about asking for what

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Speaker 3: you want and not being afraid to ask, even if

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Speaker 3: it comes off as a bit cheeky.

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Speaker 5: But I think.

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Speaker 3: When she taught me about hold your power, I think

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Speaker 3: there's a reason why madams traditionally have been sexually unavailable

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Speaker 3: to the clients for the most part, and often older,

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Speaker 3: so that culturally they're considered no longer sexually interesting. Right

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Speaker 3: Because I had on regularly, I would get proposition by clients.

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Speaker 3: They would try to find their way in around the

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Speaker 3: cracks and ask.

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Speaker 5: All, will you see me? I'll pay top dollar? How

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Speaker 5: much would you charge? How can I please? Please? Please?

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Speaker 5: And what that's about is they feel like if they

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Speaker 5: can conquer.

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Speaker 3: You sexually, then they've won you over and they don't

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Speaker 3: have to play by your rules anymore. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's that's why it's so, That's why I think that

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Speaker 3: madam position has existed traditionally, is that you need a

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Speaker 3: woman in charge who is sexually unavailable and completely unmoving

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Speaker 3: in her ground rules.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting what you just said about how age plays

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Speaker 2: into that, because it is true, of course that the

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Speaker 2: stereotype of a madam in my mind is definitely she's

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Speaker 2: older than the women who work who do the sex work.

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Speaker 2: In your experience, I mean, I want to I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get to all the things you've learned about men

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Speaker 2: doing in that process.

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Speaker 4: But is there an age cut off? Do you feel

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Speaker 4: like not at all?

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Speaker 3: In fact, when you said that, I wanted to jump

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Speaker 3: in because the lady who made the most money at

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Speaker 3: our agency was older than me. And the reason why well,

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Speaker 3: there's a few reasons why she made the most money.

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Speaker 3: She was highly professional, and she organized, and she would

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Speaker 3: come in with a large Duffel bag for what we

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Speaker 3: called her day at the office because she had back

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Speaker 3: to back bookings of these elderly gents who would book

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Speaker 3: her for two and three hours at a time, and

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Speaker 3: she would put on a different lingerie.

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Speaker 5: Outfit for each one, and there was very little sex.

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Speaker 5: It was largely companionship. But she was really intuitively kind.

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Speaker 5: She was so genuinely kind. People really responded to that,

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Speaker 5: and she made the.

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Speaker 3: Most money, so it really And the other reason is

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Speaker 3: that a lot of these guys who come and see

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Speaker 3: sex workers, if they're in their seventies and eighties, they

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Speaker 3: don't want to see a lady in her twenties. They're like,

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Speaker 3: my granddaughter is in her twenties. That makes me feel

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Speaker 3: like a pedo. So there really isn't a cutoff, I

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Speaker 3: would say in age for sex work, and quite often

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Speaker 3: the older ones do better. And in fact it was

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Speaker 3: a bit of a red flag for me and the

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Speaker 3: other managers when we would get a new client in particular,

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Speaker 3: who would say who's the youngest?

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Speaker 5: Who's the youngest?

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Speaker 3: Because what that means is is either a he thinks

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Speaker 3: that women's quality degrades with age, which is a big

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Speaker 3: red flag, or more likely B he thinks he'll have

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Speaker 3: a better chance pushing her boundaries if she's young.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there is an experience in there with a

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Speaker 2: man like that. Just back for one more second to

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Speaker 2: hold your power. One of the first times in the

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Speaker 2: book that you like you think about doing that is

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Speaker 2: when a client is trying to talk you down on price.

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Speaker 2: And this is what I'd love to get to about

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Speaker 2: that idea of saying what you need and what you

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Speaker 2: want trying to talk you down in price. And this

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Speaker 2: is when the batch has just opened, and so you're

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Speaker 2: kind of like figuring it out and you were like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to hold it and see what happens. And

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Speaker 2: of course he caves and says, sure, is that also?

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Speaker 2: Is it about also not.

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Speaker 4: The people pleasing the man pleasing reflex?

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Speaker 3: Oh, it was really hard to deprogram ourselves from that.

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Speaker 3: I can still remember.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: We had a confirmation text that we would send when

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Speaker 3: people made a booking that said you must park in

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Speaker 3: this place, arrive on time for your booking, do not

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Speaker 3: arrive early, do not arrive late, and so on. And

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Speaker 3: the first draft I looked at it and I saw

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Speaker 3: that we'd started almost every sentence with please, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, we got to take the pleases out of

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Speaker 3: this one, because I'm not asking them, I'm telling them.

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Speaker 5: So that was really a process for us to work

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Speaker 5: that out.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean it became quite clear early early on,

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Speaker 3: so early the men would would push back on the rules,

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Speaker 3: and also they would always ask for discounts and then

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Speaker 3: and then not always, but very often they would want

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Speaker 3: to know, can I do this? Can I do that?

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Speaker 3: How about three of this? How far can I go?

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Speaker 3: How hard can I say bad words?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: With you hard? Can I fuck her?

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Speaker 3: Things like that, I mean, sometimes quite gross, But I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of them just thought they were being

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Speaker 3: clear about the boundaries and they wanted to make sure

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Speaker 3: they got the best deal possible for their money, which, Okay,

287
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Speaker 3: it annoyed us, and sometimes we laughed uproariously about it,

288
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Speaker 3: but also like, why.

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Speaker 5: Don't we do that more as women?

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Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but me personally, Like even

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Speaker 3: the least I negotiated on the motel. A year down

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Speaker 3: the line, it was quite clear that I had made

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Speaker 3: some mistakes in my negotiation where I could have I

294
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Speaker 3: could have had that motel ticking along at a much

295
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Speaker 3: better clip, but I just hadn't. I hadn't pushed back

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Speaker 3: with the landlord because I think I thought if I pushed,

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Speaker 3: he'd yank the whole thing away, which is not the case.

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Speaker 3: It's not You're not going to lose everything. If you ask,

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Speaker 3: people are just going to say maybe no, And it

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Speaker 3: doesn't hurt.

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Speaker 2: Right, I know, but I mean such a stereotype, but

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Speaker 2: I know it certainly is true of myself and lots

303
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Speaker 2: of midwomen. I know in particular that's what they're afraid of.

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Speaker 4: But I could lose it all. I don't know if

305
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Speaker 4: I deserve it. I don't know if I'm gonning. And it's.

306
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Speaker 2: A few of the conversations I've had on this show

307
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Speaker 2: that have been enlightening is when people say, very often,

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Speaker 2: when you ask for what you want, you get it.

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Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: You know, but it's all about how you do that

311
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Speaker 2: I did. There isn't There isn't a moment in your

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Speaker 2: book where which i'd like to think is known in

313
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Speaker 2: New Zealand moment but maybe not where one man offers

314
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Speaker 2: to pay and crayfish.

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Speaker 5: Is particular to New Zealand. But I wouldn't be surprise

316
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Speaker 5: the burter is pretty calm.

317
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Speaker 3: I mean, I can tell you for real. Border for

318
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Speaker 3: drugs is definitely yes.

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Speaker 2: Antonia and I are going to be back in a

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Speaker 2: minute to talk about the kinds of men who pay

321
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Speaker 2: for sex and the unconventional way in which she ended

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Speaker 2: up with her now husband. It does involve somebody getting

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Speaker 2: punched in the nose, just stepping back a little bit.

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Speaker 2: You say that, and I felt a gen x camaraderie

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Speaker 2: with you about this. You were sort of saying that

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Speaker 2: you had quite you had an adventuress, You had a

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Speaker 2: non conventional childhood, you say. I seen you rite When

328
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Speaker 2: I was six months old, my mother's went. My mother

329
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Speaker 2: went to the United Nations Women's Conference in Mexico City,

330
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Speaker 2: leaving me with my dad.

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Speaker 4: My father decided this.

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Speaker 2: Was a good time to attend the Hooker's Ball at

333
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Speaker 2: the San Francisco Higatt Regency with me swaddled in a

334
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Speaker 2: blanket in the backseat of his car. It was nineteen

335
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Speaker 2: seventy five. These things happened back then, and indeed they did.

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Speaker 2: Our nineteen seventies upbringings were kind of different.

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Speaker 5: I think, and whearin as she got on the next

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Speaker 5: flight home.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure she did.

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Speaker 5: But I think the reason.

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Speaker 3: Why he went to that is because my mother was

342
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Speaker 3: sort of somewhat friends are at least friendly with Margo

343
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Speaker 3: Saint James, who was a big sex worker rights activist

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Speaker 3: and feminist in San Francisco.

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Speaker 5: So they were peripherally around that scene.

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Speaker 3: And I know my mother as a second way a

347
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Speaker 3: feminist would talk a lot about the crossover between sex

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Speaker 3: work and being a housewife.

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Speaker 5: For example.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about that too. But that's

351
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Speaker 2: interesting because you also say in the book at some

352
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Speaker 2: point that the rules you'd internalize from your dad were

353
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Speaker 2: around like don't be a prick tease, don't wear a

354
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Speaker 2: short skirt, don't do this and that.

355
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Speaker 4: So it's like they're conflicting.

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Speaker 2: You obviously had a sort of compared to a conventional

357
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Speaker 2: straight lag childhood, a relatively what's the right word, I

358
00:18:14,530 --> 00:18:18,650
Speaker 2: guess put me in there you go, But you also

359
00:18:18,690 --> 00:18:21,850
Speaker 2: were still internalizing all that messaging that women, young women

360
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Speaker 2: always do right about, like protect yourself, make sure you know,

361
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Speaker 2: don't lead men on, all that kind of stuff.

362
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think a lot of that is generational.

363
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Speaker 3: So my dad was born in the twenties and my

364
00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:35,650
Speaker 3: mom was born in the thirties. So even though my

365
00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:40,970
Speaker 3: mom was a strident feminist, I think her attitude was like, look,

366
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Speaker 3: if you you know, you show nipple and and wear

367
00:18:46,010 --> 00:18:49,130
Speaker 3: a really short mini skirt, you're gonna get aggressive attention,

368
00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:51,970
Speaker 3: so be prepared for that. It can make you, know,

369
00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:54,930
Speaker 3: your walk home that much more dangerous. Nowadays, you know,

370
00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:58,290
Speaker 3: people say, oh, it's not her fault, it's his fault.

371
00:18:58,370 --> 00:19:00,050
Speaker 3: She should be able to wear what she wants, and

372
00:19:00,050 --> 00:19:02,250
Speaker 3: they're absolutely right. Women should be able to wear what

373
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Speaker 3: they want. Also, I don't think my mother was wrong

374
00:19:05,050 --> 00:19:06,570
Speaker 3: that the micro mini is gonna make.

375
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Speaker 5: Your walk home a lot more complicated.

376
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Speaker 2: To be honest, it makes it's interesting because I have

377
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:14,530
Speaker 2: a fifteen year old daughter. You know, we would it's

378
00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:18,890
Speaker 2: we're so much further along from this idea of like

379
00:19:19,090 --> 00:19:22,250
Speaker 2: keep yourself safe, do your top up, as your dad

380
00:19:22,290 --> 00:19:24,810
Speaker 2: would say. But there's a part of you that has

381
00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:28,330
Speaker 2: learned those lessons yourself from being hyper visible at that

382
00:19:28,450 --> 00:19:31,410
Speaker 2: moment where you become hyper visible and you want to

383
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Speaker 2: kind of protect them from it, and it's it's complicated.

384
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Speaker 3: It is complicated, and in fairness, I think we've come

385
00:19:38,330 --> 00:19:42,050
Speaker 3: a long way, and we've also taken a huge step

386
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Speaker 3: backward with the amount of pornography that is so easily

387
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Speaker 3: accessible in everybody's back pocket and that apparently everyone's watching.

388
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Speaker 5: From the age of ten.

389
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Speaker 3: I know, and I saw how that played out at

390
00:19:53,290 --> 00:19:58,250
Speaker 3: the batch, and it was everything from asking for sort

391
00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:00,370
Speaker 3: of further and further out fantasies and it would be

392
00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:03,490
Speaker 3: quite clear when a certain fantasy was trending in porn,

393
00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:06,250
Speaker 3: because more and more men would ask for it. Two

394
00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:11,490
Speaker 3: men who literally could not orgasm having vaginal sex with

395
00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:14,890
Speaker 3: a woman because they were so used to jacking it

396
00:20:14,890 --> 00:20:16,930
Speaker 3: with porn, and so they got used to this very

397
00:20:16,970 --> 00:20:19,730
Speaker 3: specific touch and they could no longer orgasm with a woman.

398
00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:23,490
Speaker 3: So oh, and then just like the total death of foreplay,

399
00:20:23,810 --> 00:20:25,890
Speaker 3: Like how many young men would get in there and

400
00:20:25,930 --> 00:20:27,410
Speaker 3: think that all they had to do was put her

401
00:20:27,450 --> 00:20:29,490
Speaker 3: legs up over her head and pound away, and she's

402
00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:30,770
Speaker 3: going to have nine orgasms.

403
00:20:30,810 --> 00:20:34,050
Speaker 5: I mean, these ladies, they would I talk about it

404
00:20:34,090 --> 00:20:34,530
Speaker 5: in the book.

405
00:20:34,570 --> 00:20:36,690
Speaker 3: They at first they would say, Oh, I don't want

406
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:38,850
Speaker 3: to see it. He's so old, you know, he's fifty.

407
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:43,170
Speaker 3: He's gonna smell like old man. And then they'd finally concede,

408
00:20:43,370 --> 00:20:45,650
Speaker 3: and when they came down, they'd be like, holy shit,

409
00:20:45,730 --> 00:20:48,570
Speaker 3: that was the best shag of my life, Like no,

410
00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:52,770
Speaker 3: no one's ever been that that courtly with me before,

411
00:20:53,370 --> 00:20:55,850
Speaker 3: you know, And he kept he was so important to

412
00:20:55,930 --> 00:20:57,890
Speaker 3: him that I feel good. I mean they were just

413
00:20:57,930 --> 00:20:58,690
Speaker 3: like baffled.

414
00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:01,970
Speaker 2: And I guess also that because that's a generation that

415
00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:04,570
Speaker 2: hasn't grown up with the pawn in the pocket. It's

416
00:21:04,570 --> 00:21:08,770
Speaker 2: interesting about this because I would imagine, I mean, so

417
00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:11,370
Speaker 2: you were running the batch from in the sort of

418
00:21:11,490 --> 00:21:15,610
Speaker 2: late teens, right the late twenty teens, and so you know,

419
00:21:15,690 --> 00:21:17,770
Speaker 2: we are living in this in the iPhone world, we're

420
00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:20,530
Speaker 2: living with pawn in the pocket. I imagine that Tinder

421
00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:24,570
Speaker 2: only fans in those things are very much disrupted brothels

422
00:21:24,810 --> 00:21:25,890
Speaker 2: and agency work.

423
00:21:25,930 --> 00:21:27,570
Speaker 4: Have they No, I.

424
00:21:27,450 --> 00:21:30,170
Speaker 5: Don't think so. I mean they may have. I couldn't

425
00:21:30,210 --> 00:21:31,650
Speaker 5: speak to the before.

426
00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:33,570
Speaker 3: Times because I wasn't in the industry before, but I

427
00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:36,770
Speaker 3: will say this, something that really surprises people outside the

428
00:21:36,810 --> 00:21:38,810
Speaker 3: industry is how little sex.

429
00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:39,770
Speaker 5: There is in it.

430
00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:42,570
Speaker 3: I mean, it may be different in the sort of

431
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:46,610
Speaker 3: street walker economy where people are paying for fifteen minutes

432
00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:48,970
Speaker 3: in the back of your car or whatever. That's not

433
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:51,970
Speaker 3: the experience I can speak to. What we sold was

434
00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:56,930
Speaker 3: minimum thirty minutes, most often an hour, sometimes two or three,

435
00:21:57,370 --> 00:22:00,970
Speaker 3: and during that time there was like maybe five minutes

436
00:22:01,010 --> 00:22:05,610
Speaker 3: of sex. So men aren't booking escorts, at least not

437
00:22:05,930 --> 00:22:08,770
Speaker 3: at the price point and the time span that we

438
00:22:08,770 --> 00:22:11,530
Speaker 3: were offering for the shag. They were booking for the

439
00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:16,650
Speaker 3: companionship conversation. Someone to pay attention to them and make

440
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:20,250
Speaker 3: them feel like they were important and really for the touch.

441
00:22:20,730 --> 00:22:23,570
Speaker 3: Like that was a huge wake up for me, is

442
00:22:23,650 --> 00:22:28,130
Speaker 3: how there just seems to be this epidemic of loneliness

443
00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:34,050
Speaker 3: and of lack of human touch that people are just

444
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:36,890
Speaker 3: hungry for and will pay And yeah, okay, we are

445
00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:39,370
Speaker 3: only charging two hundred and forty dollars an hour, but

446
00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:42,490
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen in Fungaday, New Zealand, let me tell you,

447
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:44,690
Speaker 3: that was a big chunk of less people pay check.

448
00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:48,690
Speaker 3: That was a big payout, so they were that starved

449
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:50,290
Speaker 3: for it.

450
00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:55,090
Speaker 2: It's interesting because you'd think in this porn saturated world

451
00:22:55,810 --> 00:23:01,090
Speaker 2: that you know that if anything, people were more, that

452
00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:03,650
Speaker 2: there's more sex. But then study after study is saying

453
00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:05,850
Speaker 2: that young people now are having less sex than they've

454
00:23:05,890 --> 00:23:09,490
Speaker 2: ever had. Right, And anecdotally it seems to me, I

455
00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:12,450
Speaker 2: work with lots of young women. Attitudes to sex and

456
00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:17,650
Speaker 2: monogamy are still quite conservative in some ways, I think

457
00:23:17,690 --> 00:23:21,490
Speaker 2: more conservative than gen x is are. Don't you think

458
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:26,450
Speaker 2: I think that the intimacy and monogamy and finding your

459
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:30,850
Speaker 2: person is still very much the ideal that is upheld.

460
00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:32,370
Speaker 4: What do you think about that?

461
00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:34,730
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of things. Some of the

462
00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:37,850
Speaker 3: thoughts that came up as you were talking were, it's

463
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:40,690
Speaker 3: true we were shagging so much more than kids are

464
00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:42,890
Speaker 3: these days, and we had the specter of aids over

465
00:23:42,930 --> 00:23:43,370
Speaker 3: our heads.

466
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:47,170
Speaker 2: I can imagine I know when as we came of

467
00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:51,530
Speaker 2: sexual age with that idea and the fear around that.

468
00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:55,690
Speaker 3: I can tell you I'm not gen z and I'm

469
00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:58,690
Speaker 3: old and cringed to them right. But the one person

470
00:23:58,730 --> 00:24:01,810
Speaker 3: who will talk to me still touchwood is my daughter

471
00:24:01,930 --> 00:24:04,490
Speaker 3: who's fourteen. And one of the comments that she's made

472
00:24:04,530 --> 00:24:08,690
Speaker 3: which really resonated with me, is she said, I could

473
00:24:08,730 --> 00:24:11,130
Speaker 3: be photographed, Like every time I'm out in public, I'm

474
00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:13,610
Speaker 3: really careful about how I present myself because I could

475
00:24:13,610 --> 00:24:17,570
Speaker 3: be videoed or photographed at any time or recorded, and

476
00:24:17,570 --> 00:24:19,770
Speaker 3: then that can never go away, like it can ruin

477
00:24:20,170 --> 00:24:23,850
Speaker 3: your life. So I think there's more of a self

478
00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:29,210
Speaker 3: censorship because kids are worried about like just that it

479
00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:32,250
Speaker 3: can ruin your life, like we would do, get drunk,

480
00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:36,050
Speaker 3: do dumb stuff, be bad in bed with a lover

481
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:38,450
Speaker 3: you didn't sync with, and like that's it.

482
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:39,290
Speaker 5: It's forgotten.

483
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:42,850
Speaker 3: It's washed off, like the cigarette smell on your clothes

484
00:24:42,850 --> 00:24:45,890
Speaker 3: after a night at the clubs, right, they can follow

485
00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:49,810
Speaker 3: them forever into jobs, any future relationship.

486
00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:52,850
Speaker 5: I mean, what an enormous.

487
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:57,370
Speaker 4: Wait, No wonder that anxious. This is depressing, depressing. I

488
00:24:57,410 --> 00:25:01,850
Speaker 4: wonder it's it's true, it's this. I wonder if we.

489
00:25:02,610 --> 00:25:06,010
Speaker 2: Could look back on our young adulthood and think we

490
00:25:06,010 --> 00:25:09,090
Speaker 2: were allowed to mess up an experiment and have adventures

491
00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:11,730
Speaker 2: in a way that they're probably not. I wanted to

492
00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:14,730
Speaker 2: get back to two things, well many things, but we're

493
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:17,330
Speaker 2: jumping all over the place. But when you were running

494
00:25:17,370 --> 00:25:20,810
Speaker 2: the batch, so you're also parenting three young kids, your

495
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:25,490
Speaker 2: oldest Silas had significant disabilities, your daughter Miranda's little and

496
00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:28,250
Speaker 2: you had a brand new baby Matisse. So you were

497
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:30,130
Speaker 2: a hustling working mother, which was one of the real

498
00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:32,250
Speaker 2: impetuses for you wanting to do that. And as it

499
00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:33,890
Speaker 2: turned out, so are a lot of your ladies. You

500
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:36,170
Speaker 2: even run a crache at the batch for a while.

501
00:25:36,610 --> 00:25:40,170
Speaker 2: How does motherhood and sex work intersect? You mentioned it before.

502
00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:42,250
Speaker 2: How does that work?

503
00:25:42,810 --> 00:25:43,010
Speaker 5: Well?

504
00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:45,170
Speaker 3: I think a lot more than most people would think,

505
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:49,290
Speaker 3: because mothers need flexible schedules, and mothers who've been left

506
00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:52,090
Speaker 3: alone with their kids need to make the money for

507
00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:56,810
Speaker 3: the whole household because the vast majority of absent men

508
00:25:56,850 --> 00:26:00,330
Speaker 3: aren't paying enough, right, so they needed to be able

509
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:03,450
Speaker 3: to make real money to run a real safe household

510
00:26:03,450 --> 00:26:06,410
Speaker 3: for their kids. Sometimes they were in an educational program

511
00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:08,850
Speaker 3: to launch themselves under professional life, so they.

512
00:26:08,770 --> 00:26:11,850
Speaker 5: Needed even more childcare and even more of an income

513
00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:12,610
Speaker 5: to pay for that.

514
00:26:13,170 --> 00:26:15,050
Speaker 3: And you know, how are you going to make that

515
00:26:15,170 --> 00:26:18,090
Speaker 3: work if you've only got a high school degree and

516
00:26:18,250 --> 00:26:21,010
Speaker 3: the only jobs out there are for you with that,

517
00:26:21,290 --> 00:26:24,730
Speaker 3: or like call center or working in a cafe for

518
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:28,130
Speaker 3: minimum wage. Like it's just that the math doesn't math, yeah,

519
00:26:28,130 --> 00:26:30,450
Speaker 3: with that, which is why a lot of women, have

520
00:26:31,370 --> 00:26:34,810
Speaker 3: mums in particular, have turned to sex work. And then

521
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:36,850
Speaker 3: I guess the other part of that question is like, oh,

522
00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:40,330
Speaker 3: how do you reconcile your life at home with your

523
00:26:40,530 --> 00:26:43,730
Speaker 3: life at the batch? But I mean, I don't think

524
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:46,090
Speaker 3: in that sense it was really much different from any

525
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:48,410
Speaker 3: working mother, Like when I'm at work, I'm at work,

526
00:26:48,410 --> 00:26:49,490
Speaker 3: and when I'm home, I'm mumsy.

527
00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:53,290
Speaker 2: Well, there are some really interesting scenes in the book though,

528
00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:56,130
Speaker 2: when you are sort of dealing with your kids, but

529
00:26:56,210 --> 00:26:59,570
Speaker 2: your phone the phone was pinging with messages, and this

530
00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:04,330
Speaker 2: bit I found really interesting. Well, it's near the beginning

531
00:27:04,330 --> 00:27:06,330
Speaker 2: of your book, you're talking about you.

532
00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:07,330
Speaker 4: You've run quite a lot of.

533
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:09,930
Speaker 2: The text messages you got sent, and they are quite shocking,

534
00:27:10,010 --> 00:27:12,330
Speaker 2: Like if you're not in that world, they're quite shocking.

535
00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:15,490
Speaker 2: So I'm going to read a couple albums. So you're

536
00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:17,490
Speaker 2: you know, you're doing what you're doing with the baby

537
00:27:17,530 --> 00:27:19,730
Speaker 2: on your boom and everything and you and you're getting

538
00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:21,650
Speaker 2: messages that are like, hey, do you have toys or

539
00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:24,970
Speaker 2: suck without a condom? Show me pussy face, tits and

540
00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:29,450
Speaker 2: ass And you say, is this because this is obviously

541
00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:31,690
Speaker 2: early in your experience, You're like, is this how they

542
00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:35,410
Speaker 2: talk when they don't have to pretend? And I found

543
00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:40,050
Speaker 2: that a really interesting insight because that's exactly what I

544
00:27:40,090 --> 00:27:40,690
Speaker 2: thought when.

545
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:41,290
Speaker 4: I was reading it.

546
00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:43,450
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of those messages would shock

547
00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:45,770
Speaker 2: a lot of my midlife friends are on the dating apps,

548
00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:47,970
Speaker 2: to be honest, they get a lot of that stuff,

549
00:27:48,090 --> 00:27:50,810
Speaker 2: and that not from people who were looking to pay.

550
00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:54,610
Speaker 2: But did you feel like you were getting, at least

551
00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:56,450
Speaker 2: at the at the beginning, that you were getting an

552
00:27:56,490 --> 00:28:02,970
Speaker 2: insight into the male psyche that was really disturbing? Do

553
00:28:03,050 --> 00:28:05,010
Speaker 2: you and also do you think that is how they

554
00:28:05,050 --> 00:28:07,770
Speaker 2: talk when they don't have to pretend that they respect us.

555
00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:11,210
Speaker 3: Well, look, I have four older brothers, so I think

556
00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:15,130
Speaker 3: I had a bit of insight into the male psyche anyway,

557
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:18,210
Speaker 3: and they would talk and say all kinds of outrageous

558
00:28:18,250 --> 00:28:22,050
Speaker 3: things about women when they were around me. I think

559
00:28:22,210 --> 00:28:27,370
Speaker 3: that I think probably all men think those things. I

560
00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:30,610
Speaker 3: think most men say them, and I think for many

561
00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:34,170
Speaker 3: men there is no contradiction between that and the fact

562
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:37,930
Speaker 3: that they also respect women and their intellect. Like, I

563
00:28:37,970 --> 00:28:40,890
Speaker 3: think you can want to slap that ass and then

564
00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:43,970
Speaker 3: also have a conversation about civil rights. I don't think

565
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:47,930
Speaker 3: that is necessary necessarily cancel each other out. But in

566
00:28:48,050 --> 00:28:52,930
Speaker 3: terms of an insight into you know, again, I think

567
00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:57,250
Speaker 3: men thought that they were being clear when they rang

568
00:28:57,330 --> 00:28:59,690
Speaker 3: up and they asked for, you know, can I get

569
00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:01,930
Speaker 3: a size six double D blonde please?

570
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:06,210
Speaker 5: And that. But still, even though.

571
00:29:06,010 --> 00:29:08,370
Speaker 3: I knew they were not trying to be offensive, it

572
00:29:08,410 --> 00:29:10,570
Speaker 3: would it would just get, it would get. It would

573
00:29:10,610 --> 00:29:13,570
Speaker 3: wear you down because it was like, oh, they just

574
00:29:13,690 --> 00:29:16,530
Speaker 3: think of us as a collection of body parts. And

575
00:29:16,610 --> 00:29:19,250
Speaker 3: so that's why very quickly we realized like the batch

576
00:29:19,610 --> 00:29:22,330
Speaker 3: ran the best way, and we had three managers who

577
00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:26,210
Speaker 3: each just work two days a week because we were

578
00:29:26,450 --> 00:29:31,090
Speaker 3: just it would just be so emotionally exhausting to deal

579
00:29:31,130 --> 00:29:31,370
Speaker 3: with that.

580
00:29:33,770 --> 00:29:35,570
Speaker 5: Thirteen fourteen hours a day.

581
00:29:36,530 --> 00:29:38,810
Speaker 2: But that's an interesting point you make that it's not

582
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:41,650
Speaker 2: that because when you wrote you know, is this how

583
00:29:41,650 --> 00:29:45,890
Speaker 2: they talk when they don't have to pretend. I think

584
00:29:45,890 --> 00:29:49,330
Speaker 2: that sometimes when a curtain is pulled back a little

585
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:54,010
Speaker 2: bit on that kind of language whatever, I can find

586
00:29:54,010 --> 00:29:56,290
Speaker 2: myself thinking they hate us, you know what I mean,

587
00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:59,290
Speaker 2: They really they hate us, and that's how they would

588
00:29:59,410 --> 00:30:00,930
Speaker 2: like to see all of us all of the time.

589
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:04,610
Speaker 2: But that's a very simplistic way of thinking about it,

590
00:30:04,650 --> 00:30:07,130
Speaker 2: isn't it. It's these men are messaging you for a

591
00:30:07,210 --> 00:30:08,330
Speaker 2: very specific purpose.

592
00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:10,610
Speaker 4: This is your job to.

593
00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:15,810
Speaker 2: Find them the person who possibly is going to fulfill

594
00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:20,290
Speaker 2: their fantasy. It's not as black and white as good bad.

595
00:30:21,170 --> 00:30:21,330
Speaker 4: Yeah.

596
00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:23,090
Speaker 3: And I think that's a mistake that a lot of

597
00:30:23,170 --> 00:30:26,250
Speaker 3: activists make when they talk about sex worker really people

598
00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:29,090
Speaker 3: in general, when they talk about it without.

599
00:30:28,690 --> 00:30:30,290
Speaker 5: Firsthand knowledge of it.

600
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:34,290
Speaker 3: Is you know, feminists in particular in Europe will say

601
00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:41,610
Speaker 3: all selling women's bodies for sex devalues women, and it

602
00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:46,130
Speaker 3: encourages men to treat us like objects to be used,

603
00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:50,250
Speaker 3: and I think again, that's assuming that because a man

604
00:30:50,610 --> 00:30:54,330
Speaker 3: wants sex with a woman, therefore he is a predator

605
00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,970
Speaker 3: who doesn't see her as a valuable human being.

606
00:30:58,010 --> 00:31:01,050
Speaker 5: I don't think. I don't think that's the case.

607
00:31:01,210 --> 00:31:03,370
Speaker 3: I mean, look, there are jerks out there, for sure,

608
00:31:03,450 --> 00:31:05,170
Speaker 3: and we had a few of them come to the batch.

609
00:31:05,850 --> 00:31:10,330
Speaker 3: But for the most part, I think men have all people.

610
00:31:10,450 --> 00:31:14,690
Speaker 3: I think have a need for sex and intimate touch

611
00:31:14,890 --> 00:31:18,730
Speaker 3: and to feel loved and appreciated, even if it's an illusion.

612
00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:24,410
Speaker 5: But I think men really feel it like a drive,

613
00:31:24,770 --> 00:31:25,330
Speaker 5: like eating.

614
00:31:25,810 --> 00:31:27,650
Speaker 2: There's a point in the book where you sort of

615
00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:29,410
Speaker 2: run through this almost profiles of.

616
00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:31,690
Speaker 4: A few of the guys. I'm just going to find him.

617
00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:34,290
Speaker 2: Ben is a widower in his sixties who spent his

618
00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:36,890
Speaker 2: whole life on his sheep farm. He is cripplingly shy,

619
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:38,530
Speaker 2: and he has a bit of a speech impediment. So

620
00:31:38,570 --> 00:31:41,090
Speaker 2: these are kind of some of your regulars. Michael is

621
00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:44,090
Speaker 2: a local salesman. Seems to be in a happy marriage,

622
00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:46,290
Speaker 2: but he has an enormous sex drive, and his wife

623
00:31:46,330 --> 00:31:49,170
Speaker 2: is agreed that he can regularly go to escorts as

624
00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:51,570
Speaker 2: long as she doesn't have to hear about it. Eric

625
00:31:52,530 --> 00:31:55,410
Speaker 2: is autistic, and he saves up his disability checks for

626
00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:58,570
Speaker 2: his visits, which his mum drives him to and from.

627
00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:03,650
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting to consider this variety of

628
00:32:04,170 --> 00:32:07,290
Speaker 2: people who come, and I'd love to know because, as

629
00:32:07,290 --> 00:32:09,490
Speaker 2: I was just saying about hormone a lot for a

630
00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:12,570
Speaker 2: lot of mid women, sex can become a bit of

631
00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:15,890
Speaker 2: a battleground because your hormones might have been smashed and

632
00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:20,130
Speaker 2: so your libido is low, or you're in the familiarity

633
00:32:20,170 --> 00:32:23,610
Speaker 2: of a long relationship and that erotic charge is really

634
00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:24,410
Speaker 2: hard to find.

635
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:27,170
Speaker 4: Did you see lots of that?

636
00:32:27,370 --> 00:32:30,050
Speaker 2: Have you seen that kind of outsourcing of sex that's

637
00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:34,010
Speaker 2: maybe depicted there by Michael the guy whose wife agrees?

638
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:36,530
Speaker 4: Did you see a lot of that? And does it work?

639
00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:38,570
Speaker 5: Absolutely? I saw a lot of it.

640
00:32:38,610 --> 00:32:41,050
Speaker 3: And it's interesting to me when people talk to me

641
00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:45,130
Speaker 3: about the threat that sex work poses to marriage, because

642
00:32:45,170 --> 00:32:48,170
Speaker 3: I think actually the reverse is true. A lot of

643
00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:51,570
Speaker 3: men would reach out to sex workers because their wives

644
00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:54,810
Speaker 3: were uninterested in sex sex had completely left the marriage,

645
00:32:54,850 --> 00:32:58,090
Speaker 3: but they didn't want to divorce and lose their families,

646
00:32:58,610 --> 00:33:01,970
Speaker 3: and they didn't want the risk of having an affair,

647
00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:04,450
Speaker 3: which could bring with it emotional attachment and all of

648
00:33:04,450 --> 00:33:07,170
Speaker 3: those complications, and so this for them was a way

649
00:33:07,330 --> 00:33:08,730
Speaker 3: to get their physical.

650
00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:12,330
Speaker 5: Needs met without putting their families at risk. Does it work?

651
00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:13,650
Speaker 5: I don't know.

652
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:16,890
Speaker 3: I have no way of following up and finding out

653
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:20,290
Speaker 3: if they're still married or divorced five or ten years later.

654
00:33:21,370 --> 00:33:22,130
Speaker 5: I can tell you.

655
00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:24,970
Speaker 3: That somebody I know and my personal life has done

656
00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:27,770
Speaker 3: that and it has saved his marriage. That he says

657
00:33:28,330 --> 00:33:31,890
Speaker 3: his wife told him explicitly that she was no longer

658
00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:35,170
Speaker 3: interested in having sex, and they were in their sixties,

659
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:38,610
Speaker 3: and he said, I'm not ready to die yet. Now.

660
00:33:38,650 --> 00:33:41,370
Speaker 2: Your own marriage, which is talked about in the book

661
00:33:41,410 --> 00:33:44,250
Speaker 2: of Course with Patrice, started in quite an unconventional way too.

662
00:33:45,250 --> 00:33:47,570
Speaker 2: So you were married to the father of your two

663
00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:50,610
Speaker 2: older kids and you opened your marriage.

664
00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:51,210
Speaker 4: Right.

665
00:33:51,290 --> 00:33:53,850
Speaker 2: Is that the right terminology, I guess. And Patrice went

666
00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:55,890
Speaker 2: at some point from being your lover to your partner

667
00:33:55,930 --> 00:33:58,410
Speaker 2: when you got pregnant with Matisse, and your husband went

668
00:33:58,410 --> 00:33:59,330
Speaker 2: and punished him in the nose.

669
00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:02,410
Speaker 4: And then I don't know why I'm laughing.

670
00:34:02,410 --> 00:34:05,010
Speaker 2: That's not really funny, but it's just it's quite a scene.

671
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,410
Speaker 2: And then you say that your small town turned on

672
00:34:08,490 --> 00:34:11,130
Speaker 2: you at that point. To a lot of people stopped

673
00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:14,690
Speaker 2: talking to you, and I wanted to hear about your ins,

674
00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:17,370
Speaker 2: and then you opened brothels. So I'm sure that, really,

675
00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:20,490
Speaker 2: I'm sure that really sorted out.

676
00:34:20,410 --> 00:34:21,250
Speaker 4: All that judgment.

677
00:34:21,930 --> 00:34:26,330
Speaker 2: How did that community handle you in a way, and

678
00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:29,810
Speaker 2: how did you learn to deal with those really entrenched

679
00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:34,330
Speaker 2: conservative attitudes about both your personal and professional.

680
00:34:34,330 --> 00:34:36,210
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse

681
00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:41,610
Speaker 3: how completely non confrontational quies are, because nobody ever said

682
00:34:41,610 --> 00:34:44,090
Speaker 3: to my face that they disapproved of what I was doing.

683
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:47,850
Speaker 3: But it did hurt when friends just stopped, like literally

684
00:34:47,930 --> 00:34:51,290
Speaker 3: just didn't call back, didn't email back, just just cut

685
00:34:51,370 --> 00:34:53,930
Speaker 3: us dead. And Patrice had lived in the community a

686
00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:56,490
Speaker 3: lot longer than I had, and these are people who

687
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:59,930
Speaker 3: he'd cared for their kids over the school holidays because

688
00:35:00,090 --> 00:35:02,050
Speaker 3: during periods of time and he was only working part

689
00:35:02,050 --> 00:35:05,050
Speaker 3: time or between jobs, he like basically conducted a summer

690
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:07,370
Speaker 3: camp at his house and took care of all their kids.

691
00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:09,250
Speaker 5: And they just cut us out.

692
00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:12,690
Speaker 3: So yeah, that hurt would have Yeah, And you know, honestly,

693
00:35:12,730 --> 00:35:15,090
Speaker 3: as an American, I'd rather they had had a conversation

694
00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:20,170
Speaker 3: with me, because maybe we could have, you know, salvaged

695
00:35:20,170 --> 00:35:22,890
Speaker 3: some of the friendships. But alas that was not to be.

696
00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:25,490
Speaker 3: And I think I was so overwhelmed at the time

697
00:35:25,810 --> 00:35:30,570
Speaker 3: with new baby and profoundly disabled child and two businesses

698
00:35:30,730 --> 00:35:32,010
Speaker 3: and all the rest of it. I was on a

699
00:35:32,050 --> 00:35:35,610
Speaker 3: go door to door and say, Hi, do you still

700
00:35:35,650 --> 00:35:37,010
Speaker 3: want to be my friend? Like, I just didn't have

701
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:37,450
Speaker 3: time for that.

702
00:35:37,530 --> 00:35:40,570
Speaker 2: I had to simplify, you know, the judgment that you

703
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:43,770
Speaker 2: were copying for both for both that and then I

704
00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:46,690
Speaker 2: assumed that it was public knowledge about the batch, right

705
00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:49,370
Speaker 2: like the town all knew about the batch. Did you

706
00:35:49,450 --> 00:35:52,170
Speaker 2: also cop a lot of judgment about that and did

707
00:35:52,210 --> 00:35:52,610
Speaker 2: you care?

708
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:54,090
Speaker 5: Well, it's hard to say.

709
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:57,810
Speaker 3: I only felt the judgment when I tried to advertise,

710
00:35:57,890 --> 00:36:01,530
Speaker 3: both for staff or for clients, or when I tried

711
00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:05,210
Speaker 3: to rent to premises, and I was getting blocked at

712
00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:07,450
Speaker 3: every point in the way. When I when counsel tried

713
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:10,970
Speaker 3: to give us the boot, that's when I felt the pushback.

714
00:36:11,650 --> 00:36:15,090
Speaker 3: The rest of the time, people really just did not confront.

715
00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:17,450
Speaker 3: I sometimes felt a bit of a chill in the air,

716
00:36:17,610 --> 00:36:21,930
Speaker 3: but nobody said anything. And look, you know, I've worked

717
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:25,450
Speaker 3: out that fun Today had a population about eighty thousand

718
00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:29,610
Speaker 3: people of whom, let's say half were men forty thousand

719
00:36:29,650 --> 00:36:33,210
Speaker 3: and like maybe a quarter of those are children. So

720
00:36:33,490 --> 00:36:37,010
Speaker 3: of the thirty thousand adult men in town, I had

721
00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:41,770
Speaker 3: three thousand names on my work phone. So like judgment

722
00:36:41,850 --> 00:36:45,650
Speaker 3: are no judgment? They were still ringing that phone.

723
00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:50,170
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

724
00:36:50,170 --> 00:36:52,850
Speaker 2: It was obviously a service that was needed in that community,

725
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:54,330
Speaker 2: whether they approved of it or not.

726
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:54,930
Speaker 4: So you didn't.

727
00:36:54,970 --> 00:36:57,370
Speaker 2: It wasn't like they're trying to run you out of town.

728
00:36:57,490 --> 00:37:01,370
Speaker 2: It was just more like icy, an icy, like not

729
00:37:01,730 --> 00:37:02,810
Speaker 2: looking at you in the shop.

730
00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:06,330
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, when we come back.

731
00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:10,250
Speaker 2: Anthonya tells me about her experience parenting a child living

732
00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:14,690
Speaker 2: with a disability while also running a brothel. Stay with us.

733
00:37:15,490 --> 00:37:19,170
Speaker 2: Everything changed in twenty nineteen. You lost your son, Silas.

734
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:24,370
Speaker 2: He died suddenly, and that obviously changed everything. You packed

735
00:37:24,450 --> 00:37:25,930
Speaker 2: up and left and went to live in France for

736
00:37:25,930 --> 00:37:28,130
Speaker 2: a year with your family. And you didn't go back,

737
00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:31,170
Speaker 2: did you. You've gone back to New Zealand, but you've

738
00:37:31,210 --> 00:37:31,970
Speaker 2: never gone back.

739
00:37:32,330 --> 00:37:33,450
Speaker 5: No, I have not been back.

740
00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:36,770
Speaker 2: I assume that there's a that's a massive life before

741
00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:39,010
Speaker 2: and life after moment.

742
00:37:39,930 --> 00:37:41,810
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean from Gaday.

743
00:37:41,970 --> 00:37:46,930
Speaker 3: For me, it was the years when I was parenting Silas,

744
00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:50,730
Speaker 3: which were really hard. I mean, I love that kid,

745
00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:53,450
Speaker 3: but it is so hard and isolating to have a

746
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:58,930
Speaker 3: child who is so profoundly disabled. He was basically nonverbal,

747
00:37:59,170 --> 00:38:04,530
Speaker 3: he was incontinent. He would yell nonsense words repeatedly. And

748
00:38:04,570 --> 00:38:08,890
Speaker 3: so you know, people people shoot you are either really

749
00:38:09,010 --> 00:38:11,730
Speaker 3: uncomfortable or they shoot you annoyed looks because they think

750
00:38:11,770 --> 00:38:13,850
Speaker 3: your child is acting out. They don't realize that he

751
00:38:13,930 --> 00:38:14,570
Speaker 3: can't help it.

752
00:38:15,450 --> 00:38:17,010
Speaker 5: I think we have a ways to go. I mean,

753
00:38:17,010 --> 00:38:17,810
Speaker 5: that's another taboo.

754
00:38:17,850 --> 00:38:20,210
Speaker 3: We have a ways to go before we're fully accepting

755
00:38:20,250 --> 00:38:21,130
Speaker 3: of THELED.

756
00:38:21,810 --> 00:38:23,930
Speaker 5: And so there's just a lot of pain wrapped up

757
00:38:23,930 --> 00:38:25,890
Speaker 5: for me in that town.

758
00:38:26,410 --> 00:38:29,050
Speaker 2: I think the way that you write about with such

759
00:38:29,130 --> 00:38:33,770
Speaker 2: honesty about parenting Silas, mothering Silas will make a lot

760
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:36,010
Speaker 2: of women I'm sure they say that to you already,

761
00:38:36,010 --> 00:38:39,450
Speaker 2: but will make a lot of parents feel very seen

762
00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:43,370
Speaker 2: because I think I think you like you. You bring

763
00:38:43,530 --> 00:38:45,450
Speaker 2: You're very I mean as in all of the book.

764
00:38:46,090 --> 00:38:48,810
Speaker 2: You're very honest, You're very straightforward about it. You know,

765
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:52,330
Speaker 2: you you talk about how difficult it it is and was,

766
00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:56,370
Speaker 2: and I think it's a real gift that because you know,

767
00:38:56,450 --> 00:39:00,410
Speaker 2: we we like to put little bows on difficult situations,

768
00:39:00,410 --> 00:39:00,890
Speaker 2: don't we.

769
00:39:01,610 --> 00:39:05,330
Speaker 3: Totally And thank you for saying that, because I feel

770
00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:11,050
Speaker 3: like that that the book does make tries to ship

771
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:13,930
Speaker 3: away a little bit at that taboo that we have

772
00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:17,410
Speaker 3: around disability, and it's bo is exactly the right word

773
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:21,610
Speaker 3: for it. There's another writer, Andrew Solomon, who writes brilliantly.

774
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:23,530
Speaker 4: From the Tree Fall from the Tree.

775
00:39:23,570 --> 00:39:24,210
Speaker 5: Loved that book.

776
00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:27,210
Speaker 3: He says, there's a tendency that people have of calling

777
00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:30,930
Speaker 3: them pillow angels. You know these Hugh at the time

778
00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:32,890
Speaker 3: was writing about I think a pair of twins that

779
00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:36,890
Speaker 3: were so profoundly disabled that they couldn't even sit up

780
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:39,690
Speaker 3: on their own. They were basically lying flat on their

781
00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:42,730
Speaker 3: backs with the tube in their bellies to feed them

782
00:39:42,810 --> 00:39:45,250
Speaker 3: on pillows. And I can't remember if it was the

783
00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:47,850
Speaker 3: mother the people around them calling them pillow angels.

784
00:39:47,930 --> 00:39:50,050
Speaker 5: I thought, wow, that's so what.

785
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:52,650
Speaker 3: It is is it's a racing of the child, and

786
00:39:52,690 --> 00:39:55,370
Speaker 3: it's a racing of the parent. Because look, Silas could

787
00:39:55,410 --> 00:39:57,970
Speaker 3: be a real little shit sometimes like every other kid,

788
00:39:58,010 --> 00:40:00,170
Speaker 3: and that's part of his humanity. He has the right

789
00:40:00,250 --> 00:40:03,530
Speaker 3: to be a little shit. And I have the right

790
00:40:03,930 --> 00:40:07,450
Speaker 3: to feel really unhappy about going into his room every

791
00:40:07,490 --> 00:40:11,450
Speaker 3: morning and changing an adult sized Pooh, you know, and

792
00:40:11,930 --> 00:40:16,250
Speaker 3: that's also human, that's part of my humanity. And so yeah,

793
00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:18,930
Speaker 3: I think too often what happens is that the parents

794
00:40:18,930 --> 00:40:23,250
Speaker 3: of people who are disabled, and very often into adulthood

795
00:40:23,290 --> 00:40:28,930
Speaker 3: of the child end up isolated at home because no

796
00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:34,090
Speaker 3: one is able to They're either ostracized or there's this

797
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:38,330
Speaker 3: weird angelic halo put on them, but either way, nobody

798
00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:39,210
Speaker 3: wants to see them.

799
00:40:39,490 --> 00:40:43,490
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and they don't want to hear They

800
00:40:43,490 --> 00:40:45,850
Speaker 2: don't want to hear your story about that, you know,

801
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:49,690
Speaker 2: I'm so playing on an animal level. I think that's

802
00:40:49,730 --> 00:40:52,090
Speaker 2: exactly right. I think people don't want to look at it,

803
00:40:52,210 --> 00:40:54,570
Speaker 2: which is like, deep down don't want to look at

804
00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:59,690
Speaker 2: that experience, which I really appreciated it being in the book.

805
00:41:00,450 --> 00:41:02,650
Speaker 2: You did go back to New Zealand though, And I'm

806
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:06,130
Speaker 2: really interested in post batch life because obviously you've written

807
00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:08,210
Speaker 2: this book, and this book has been adapted into a

808
00:41:08,250 --> 00:41:11,050
Speaker 2: TV show which is very successful. Has Rachel Griffi is

809
00:41:11,050 --> 00:41:12,770
Speaker 2: playing you. I don't know how that feels. How does

810
00:41:12,770 --> 00:41:14,570
Speaker 2: it feel to have Rachel Griffiths playing you?

811
00:41:14,730 --> 00:41:16,010
Speaker 5: Is it really real?

812
00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:18,810
Speaker 4: It's great?

813
00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:24,330
Speaker 2: But so how did life play out post that did you.

814
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:24,410
Speaker 4: You.

815
00:41:24,450 --> 00:41:26,890
Speaker 2: Obviously you all went back to France. I can't imagine

816
00:41:26,890 --> 00:41:29,570
Speaker 2: what a difficult time this was COVID hits.

817
00:41:29,770 --> 00:41:31,330
Speaker 4: But you did go back to New Zealand.

818
00:41:31,330 --> 00:41:34,370
Speaker 2: Why did you go back to New Zealand And how

819
00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:36,970
Speaker 2: has life changed since you wrote the book?

820
00:41:37,850 --> 00:41:40,570
Speaker 3: Well, I mean the quick reason why we came back

821
00:41:40,570 --> 00:41:42,650
Speaker 3: to New Zealand is that we both have shared custody

822
00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:46,370
Speaker 3: of children with partners. Of course you do short of

823
00:41:46,410 --> 00:41:48,690
Speaker 3: abandoning those children, which I could never do.

824
00:41:48,970 --> 00:41:51,250
Speaker 5: We need to be in New Zealand of course from them.

825
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:53,970
Speaker 3: But really the only other option I think for me

826
00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:58,250
Speaker 3: would be France because the United States I feel less

827
00:41:58,250 --> 00:41:59,010
Speaker 3: and less American.

828
00:41:59,090 --> 00:42:01,330
Speaker 5: It's been sixteen seventeen years now.

829
00:42:02,890 --> 00:42:06,290
Speaker 2: Did you write the huff Post essay and it got

830
00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:09,610
Speaker 2: optioned for the movie? But had you'd already been you

831
00:42:09,610 --> 00:42:11,730
Speaker 2: You've sailed through this book that you always knew it

832
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:14,450
Speaker 2: was going to be a book, really, this Batch Adventure?

833
00:42:14,810 --> 00:42:16,810
Speaker 3: Oh right, yeah, so you were asking me about life

834
00:42:16,850 --> 00:42:21,130
Speaker 3: since then, I always wanted to write about it, and

835
00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:23,890
Speaker 3: I had been writing about it during the time of

836
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:26,810
Speaker 3: running the batche. I would jot down notes and I

837
00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:30,570
Speaker 3: would talk about it whenever I could to a couple

838
00:42:30,570 --> 00:42:33,130
Speaker 3: of podcasts and so on, because I thought what we

839
00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:37,450
Speaker 3: were doing was really important and low key revolutionary, actually

840
00:42:37,610 --> 00:42:40,050
Speaker 3: putting the power in the hands of the sex workers.

841
00:42:40,650 --> 00:42:43,170
Speaker 2: Near the beginning of the book, you're like, you're in

842
00:42:43,210 --> 00:42:46,090
Speaker 2: this little town in New Zealand and you're kind of

843
00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:49,850
Speaker 2: going and you've got these little kids, and as discussed,

844
00:42:49,850 --> 00:42:52,850
Speaker 2: you know, life isn't easy, and you're working out what

845
00:42:52,930 --> 00:42:54,610
Speaker 2: to do. And you say, when you're young and w

846
00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:56,650
Speaker 2: you make choices on a whim because you think everything

847
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:59,090
Speaker 2: is reversible, and then one day you realize it's not.

848
00:42:59,970 --> 00:43:03,170
Speaker 2: And that's one of the things about aging that I

849
00:43:03,650 --> 00:43:07,730
Speaker 2: bump up against a lot. I'm like, the choices I've

850
00:43:07,770 --> 00:43:11,250
Speaker 2: made that I didn't even really think about have now

851
00:43:11,330 --> 00:43:13,570
Speaker 2: led me to be in my life. For example, I

852
00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:15,450
Speaker 2: live on the other side of the world to my

853
00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:18,530
Speaker 2: family and all those things. When you look back at

854
00:43:18,530 --> 00:43:20,330
Speaker 2: this time, at that time in your life that this

855
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:23,210
Speaker 2: book is about.

856
00:43:22,570 --> 00:43:23,770
Speaker 4: How do you feel about it?

857
00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:28,010
Speaker 2: Do you regret being there? Do you wish that life

858
00:43:28,050 --> 00:43:30,130
Speaker 2: had been different already? Glad that it played out the

859
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:30,610
Speaker 2: way it did.

860
00:43:31,170 --> 00:43:33,930
Speaker 5: I think it has to play out the way it does.

861
00:43:34,210 --> 00:43:37,090
Speaker 3: I mean, look, if I was gonna tell you one regret,

862
00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:39,930
Speaker 3: I'd say, I wish I hadn't dropped out of university

863
00:43:40,010 --> 00:43:43,650
Speaker 3: level chemistry because I was really getting interested in endochronology.

864
00:43:46,370 --> 00:43:50,250
Speaker 3: But I think, look when my husband left and I

865
00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:53,650
Speaker 3: was so terrified, and I had all these kids to

866
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:58,290
Speaker 3: take care of, and Patrece, my now husband, said he

867
00:43:58,370 --> 00:44:00,490
Speaker 3: would be with me and help me raise this child.

868
00:44:00,570 --> 00:44:03,810
Speaker 5: But I didn't know if he was stick or not.

869
00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:10,250
Speaker 3: I think something rises up in mothers in particular, or

870
00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:15,290
Speaker 3: we just go nothing gonna put my babies in danger,

871
00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:18,010
Speaker 3: and I just I was able to find a strength

872
00:44:19,090 --> 00:44:20,530
Speaker 3: of a hundred wildcats.

873
00:44:20,730 --> 00:44:22,410
Speaker 5: And I'm not flexing here like that.

874
00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:25,010
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's a physical brain reaction

875
00:44:25,290 --> 00:44:27,010
Speaker 3: when a mom is backed against the wall.

876
00:44:27,810 --> 00:44:29,970
Speaker 5: And I'm proud of what we did, and I think

877
00:44:30,010 --> 00:44:32,890
Speaker 5: I did it because I was backed up against the wall.

878
00:44:33,570 --> 00:44:36,170
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think all that bad shit had to happen.

879
00:44:37,290 --> 00:44:44,810
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Anthonia. It's been a really good conversation. Friends.

880
00:44:45,370 --> 00:44:48,570
Speaker 2: This has been the last traditional episode of season four

881
00:44:48,610 --> 00:44:50,810
Speaker 2: of mid We're going to be back in your ears

882
00:44:50,890 --> 00:44:53,250
Speaker 2: in April, and until then, I want you to keep

883
00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:55,850
Speaker 2: your ears free for a few little treats that might

884
00:44:55,930 --> 00:44:59,530
Speaker 2: drop your way in this feed. Also, I asked you

885
00:44:59,610 --> 00:45:02,970
Speaker 2: last week to rate and review and please continue to

886
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:05,490
Speaker 2: do that wherever you're listening to MID. If you like

887
00:45:05,610 --> 00:45:07,730
Speaker 2: the show, If you love the show, if you have

888
00:45:07,770 --> 00:45:10,890
Speaker 2: opinions about the show, tell us jump into wherever you're

889
00:45:10,930 --> 00:45:14,130
Speaker 2: listening to this and rate and review. Five stars would

890
00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:17,010
Speaker 2: be great. Also, if you have thoughts and feelings about

891
00:45:17,010 --> 00:45:20,010
Speaker 2: what we should be talking about next on MID, we'd

892
00:45:20,090 --> 00:45:20,810
Speaker 2: love to hear it.

893
00:45:21,010 --> 00:45:22,490
Speaker 4: Follow us on instert and send us.

894
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:25,090
Speaker 2: A cheeky DM at Mid by Mamma Mia or me

895
00:45:25,330 --> 00:45:28,770
Speaker 2: at Waynwright, Holly, and last, but not least, if you

896
00:45:28,930 --> 00:45:33,210
Speaker 2: want more MID conversations about sex, scroll back to our

897
00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:36,370
Speaker 2: conversation with Leslie Morgan, who got divorced at forty nine

898
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:40,290
Speaker 2: and embarked on quite the sexual adventure, or with the

899
00:45:40,330 --> 00:45:43,890
Speaker 2: author Julie Cohen about coming out as bisexual as a

900
00:45:43,970 --> 00:45:47,370
Speaker 2: married mom of forty. Both of those episodes are in

901
00:45:47,410 --> 00:45:50,890
Speaker 2: our feed, And of course, a massive thank you to

902
00:45:51,050 --> 00:45:54,890
Speaker 2: the executive producer of MID. Her name is Niama Brown,

903
00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:59,090
Speaker 2: the senior producer is Grace Ruvray, the producer is Charlie Blackman,

904
00:45:59,370 --> 00:46:01,730
Speaker 2: and we've had audio production from Jacob Brown.

905
00:46:02,170 --> 00:46:20,770
Speaker 4: And I will see you next season. Bye,