WEBVTT - Where Has All The Swearing Gone & The Bush Wee Rule 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:06.160 Welcome to Parenting Out Loud. This is the podcast with 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.319 what parents are thinking about. I'm not Eat Bowli. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.200 I'm Amelia Leicester and I'm Stacey Hicks and I'm so 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.320 happy to be back with you both. Sweet I am 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.319 away convention, the Sea Monkey convention that you accuse me 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.200 of being out. Yeah, it was great. Actually I've got 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.720 a full tank in my house now. But thank you 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:23.240 for asking. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:24.040 Are they alive? 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:26.119 No, they're not. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.240 No comment coming up today? 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.440 What are the rules of a kid's bush? We a 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.600 listener dilemma has raised a very important question for us. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.320 We need to talk about swearing in twenty twenty six. 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.239 There is one place where it has completely disappeared and 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.040 there's one place where it's on the rise. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.400 And when a public image gets complicated, is motherhood the 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.080 ultimate reputation rehab? 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.800 But first, I cannot believe it has taken me this 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.200 long to bring up Harry Styles on this show. I 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.840 even have him on my shirt today. Such is the 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.600 fangirl in me. But I finally found a way in 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.520 for this podcast, and that is to tell you this. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.840 Harry Styles and his sister Gemma Styles are the gold 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.240 standard of siblings. They are what families dream of when 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.560 they have multiple kids. And that is because this weekend 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.800 Harry Styles broke the Wembley Stadium record for the most 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.160 consecutive shows at that stadium in a row. He did twelve, 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.760 and when you consider there's ninety thousand seats in that 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:27.200 stadium sold out, twelve sold out shows incredible, incredible effort. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.440 And he's also just like jogging around London all the time, insane. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.199 He basically does a marathon every night and then ran 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.640 to one of the shows. Yeah, just jogged to one 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.400 of his own shows at Wembley Stadium. He is my favorite. 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.080 But to surprise him at his twelfth show, they brought 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.080 out his sister, Gemma onto the stage. Now, Gemma is 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.280 not as comfortable on the stage as Harry is. You 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.080 can tell that she doesn't like being there, but she's 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.360 there to celebrate him. And I want to play you 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.560 a little of what she said. I apologize in advance 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.560 for all the screaming in the background you're going to hear, 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:03.080 but this is all me, but it's worth listening. I 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:03.960 don't think. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:04.880 Of you as. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.680 At all in say today life. 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:14.080 I think of you as a brother and an uncle 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:15.959 and a best friend. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:21.440 And seeing. 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:27.040 The incredible community that has formed around you is. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:29.760 Just indescribable. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:31.520 I'm so proud of you. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.679 I'm not just proud because you've done things like this, 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:42.480 which nobody does. I'm proud of who you are and 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.120 who you allow other people to be, and just the 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:50.200 impact that you've made on so many, not least us 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.960 who get to love you in real life. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:54.680 And what privilege that is. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.120 Thank you for being you. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.720 Thanks to lay Oh jeez, it's real. 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:08.160 Twenty first birthday speech say that for the party, Gema 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.000 were there to see the music, We're there to see 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:10.800 Harry perform. 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.440 We know not a lot about Gemma. So she has 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.280 a public Instagram that keeps things very private. So she's 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.080 got a young child, but her life is not in 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.000 the spotlight like Harry's is. But I just it A 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:24.720 little bit of it hit me in the fields because 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.280 I only have one child, this little pang of guilt 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.200 of oh, imagine what that could be if your kids 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.960 grew up and loved one another that much. But then 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.480 I remember that this is the best case scenario. This 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.920 is like top tier. And just when I thought I 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.920 could not be more emotional about this. Their mum Anne 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.440 and entered the chat. Now, Anne loves Instagram. Anne loves 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.840 an Instagram post and she posted a photo of the 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:49.320 two of them as kids, and I just want to 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.240 read you what she wrote on it. She said, how 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.560 could I have possibly known then that he would break 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.840 records doing exactly what he was put in this world 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:57.760 to do, that he would grow up to be the 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.800 kind of man the world needs right now? My gorgeous 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.920 girl has loved and protected him always, even when he 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.320 was the annoying little brother to his quiet, studious big sister. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.200 I could not be prouder of you both as humans, 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.280 as siblings, and as my babies, knowing you're always there 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.080 for me, but more importantly for each other. That's my 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:17.960 biggest achievement. That is my award. 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:18.960 That's so lovely. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:20.640 I love them. 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.280 There's an Atlantic headline I think about all the time 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.120 which said, the longest relationship of your life will be 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:28.159 the one with your sibling. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.360 Yeah. Yeah, then with you from the start, from the start. 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:33.200 Yeah. 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.080 Well good on him and did good? 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:36.360 Yeah. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.680 Can we just take a really quick moment to just 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.400 recognize that siblings are romanticized in culture? 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:43.800 Like this is. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.440 Lovely and I'm with you. It's lovely and we need more. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.120 It's nice to see a British family that are in 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.040 the spol that are functional and have good relationships, and 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.520 I don't begrudge them that, But Stacy, why do you 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:56.560 keep doing this to yourself? 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:57.120 Like sibling? 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.760 You looked at the sibling effect on a recent episode 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.280 and there are so many ways that siblings are romanticized 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.320 in culture, and we love to shine a light on them. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.000 But for every Harry and Gemma styles, there is also 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:10.839 a Liam and Nol Gallagher. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.880 So I don't think Liam and Nol Gallagher are worst 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:18.680 case scenario. They're like extremely successful musicians have given the 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.120 world like Greek gifts from their sibling relationship. Yeah. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:24.000 I don't mean that. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.919 I mean that their Di Siberant relationship probably is a 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.320 bit dysfunction. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.719 Agree, but it did pretty underwall. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.200 Yeah, true, true, so something good did come out of it. 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.120 And the other thing I want to bring up with 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.479 you guys this week that caught my eye was this 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.320 article in the Sydney Morning Herald about the fact that 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.800 Australian schools are now introducing codes of conduct not for 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.360 the students but for the parents because of bad behavior. Essentially, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.400 the parents are meddling too much and they needed to 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.279 do something to fix this. So the headmaster of Barker 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.120 College in Sydney's North Shore spoke about how they're getting 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.159 all the parents to sign this charter basically agreeing to 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.599 behave themselves more because things have moved from what he 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:09.240 described as a parent teacher relationship into consumer behavior and 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.599 being like, I've paid for this and so this is 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.760 what I demand from you as a product. I thought 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.240 this was so interesting, talking about parents being passionate not 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.120 being the problem, the problem being that some parents resist 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.640 teachers authority over their children, but expect that that authority 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.039 is done to other children. It's kind of like, not 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.599 my kid, don't do that to my kid, but make 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.680 sure you're keeping all the other kids in line. I 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.520 thought that that was fascinating. Do you think this has 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.560 cotton so bad now or has it always been like this? 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.360 Oh? I think I'd take that principal's word for it. 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.080 That there's now this sense that schools are almost like 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.840 luxury hotels for a lot of parents. And there was 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:53.080 an article in the Australian Financial Review just recently about 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.840 how school fees are increasing at double the rate of 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.680 general inflation. This is obviously private school fees. Child started 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.320 at say a Geelong Grammar this year, you'll be up 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.920 for one point two million dollars over thirteen years of school. 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:08.640 So if you're. 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.640 Paying one point two million dollars, I guess you kind 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.600 of expect things to go your way and you want 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.120 the customer service to match. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.440 Yeah, exactly. And the other thing I saw people talking 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:23.080 about was that now because of WhatsApp groups, Facebook school 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.160 Facebook groups, it being more instantaneous. There is this like 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.480 instant gratification from kind of sharing that publicly or making 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.000 the complaints publicly, and then it almost becomes like a 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.880 mob mentality of all. I've seen that parent complaining, so 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.880 now I'm going to complain about this, Like everyone's airing 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.800 their grievances more in a public square, whereas once upon 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.880 a time that would have been a meeting between you 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.160 and the teacher and that's the end of it. It's 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.160 so interesting to see it's spiraling to this point. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:51.160 I just want to flip this for a second because 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.320 I saw something on Instagram that made my jaw drop, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.040 and that doesn't happen so often these days. But there's 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.600 an Australian content creator comedian he must be a teacher. 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.720 He doesn't say that in his bio and his name's 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.119 Tyson Poppleston and he has this series where he reads 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.200 out emails from parents and he says, this series has 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.680 tens of millions of views, and he says, these are 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.200 all real emails that I'm getting from parents. He reads 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:20.000 them out, includes children's names, and I think that kind 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.160 of speaks as well to like the erosion of trust 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.080 between parents and schools that we have now. It's very 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:32.800 them versus us and not super constructive. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.480 Because, as you say, if you're forking out big dollars, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.480 be your kid to go somewhere, like you do kind 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.959 of have a leg to stand on right in wanting 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.000 to make sure that they're getting they're getting a good 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.600 education out of that. So I mean, where's the line. 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.199 There was a big story in the news this week, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.560 but I don't want to talk about the story. I 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.199 want to talk about the media mechanics behind it. So 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.719 it's about Sam Kerr, who's Australia's best footballer, one of 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.440 the world's best footballers in fact, and this week, and 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.880 when I say football, I mean soccer for the Australians 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.840 and this week she signed the biggest contract of her career. 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.040 This is a deal worth millions of dollars and she's 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.040 got a World Cup on the horizon and it's probably 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.640 the biggest career chapter of her life. But the headline 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.120 that I saw was this. It was in the Herald 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.720 Sun and it was Sam Kerr reveals world Cup goal 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.280 and her surreal new life as a mum. And the 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.240 article is sort of framed a little bit around how 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.559 motherhood has changed her. Now you probably are thinking, oh, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.520 I know where this is going, right. You're waiting for 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.280 me to say. Can you imagine if they wrote this 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.600 about a man like they would never write David Beckham 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.520 is soccer's best dad. And yes, that headline would never happen. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.200 And that conversation is a real conversation, it's worth having. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:49.800 But it's not what I want to talk about today. 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.000 I want to go somewhere different because I want to 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.920 talk about how the media uses motherhood to swing public 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:55.760 perception of women. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.040 Oh are you with me? Are with me? 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.160 Does this sound horribly boring? Okay, because here's why. Here's why. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.679 Here's my thesis. So Sam Kerr has had a pretty 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.960 tricky year publicly. She had an injury, a terrible injury, 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.560 she had time off the game. She was found not 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.640 guilty of racially aggravated harassment of a London police officer. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.920 She was acquitted, she was cleared, it was done, but 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.520 the trial kind of ran her name through the ring 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.480 of a bit. And so now as she steps back 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.520 into the public frame, I was just really interested to 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.200 see the framing of this headline, not as like fierce 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.520 comeback queen, but as mum. 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.679 And now I'm not saying that Sam. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.199 Kerr or her PR team are like purposely weaponizing motherhood 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.000 at all. I don't think that that's what she's doing, 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.400 but I just did want to take note of the 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.480 work that the word mum and motherhood is doing when 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.800 it gets attached to a woman like Sam Kerr. Here, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.440 So I guess, I guess the question is this, like Amelia, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.640 when a woman has a bad run of press or 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:07.600 a bad I don't know, reputation, Maybe a bad run 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.480 of press is probably the way to say it. Does 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.280 this pivot the kind of framing of motherhood smooth things 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:14.440 over and humanize them. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.360 Yeah, I think that's a really interesting observation, And I 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.679 guess what you're saying, is that introducing the word mum 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.920 kind of at the very least changes the conversation with that, 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:29.040 like you know, blunts the sharp edges of a personality 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.360 or softens a woman's image in. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:32.160 The public eye. 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.400 I thought immediately here of Angelina Jolie, because if you're 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.679 of a certain age, you're going to remember that Angelina 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.240 had a real wild child era that seems really dissonant 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.120 with how we think of her today as a humanitarian advocate. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.600 So she used to wear her husband's blood around her 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.360 neck and a vial. She kissed her brother at an 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.280 award show. But it's been reported that around the year 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.959 two thousand, when she was filming tomb Rader in Cambodia, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.200 her eyes were really open to the fact that were 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.880 children around the world living in extreme poverty. She saw 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.040 humanitarian crisis first hand. She became a global human rights advocate, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.680 and she also became a mother. She adopted her son, Maddox, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.360 shortly after that experience in two thousand and two, and 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.880 then thereafter I think we started to think of Angelina 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.680 Jolie totally differently from her nineties wild child roots. 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.520 So I guess what I'm wondering about. 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.680 Is is that always like a cynical pivot to say, like, look, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.520 now I'm a mother, you don't get to ask me 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.520 about the blood I used to wear around my neck. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:40.040 Or is it, in fact just that natural softening that 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.960 can occur when you have to look after someone who 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.880 is not you, when you do undergo change when you 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:47.559 become a mum. 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.920 Yeah, I see what you're saying. Mon's about that. This 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.440 is you know, we could be cynical and say that 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.079 people are doing this to give someone a reputation overhaul. 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.760 But as you say, meals impossible not to change as 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.000 much as all of us say. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.600 And I know that's dangerous ground. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:04.920 Yeah. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:05.840 I don't want to say. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.680 We're not saying here like mothers are inherently better, no 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.480 generous and thoughtful. We're just saying you change. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.880 Yeah, that's it. It doesn't necessarily make you a good 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.680 person in any way, but you're kind of forced to 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.160 be a bit more selfless. You're forced to kind of 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.160 think about someone outside yourself. So it's natural that that 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.320 does change your perception of the world around you. And 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.240 there is kind of that softening, as much as we 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:29.600 kind of rail against it. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.280 I don't agree, And I'll get to that in a minute, 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.520 because it's not always softening. Sometimes it works in the 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.320 other direction. But I think what I what you're talking 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:41.959 about is true, and I think two things can be 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.160 true at the same time. But what I'm talking about 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.280 is public perception, right, And I think if I was 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:51.240 advising someone on a comeback after a public scandal, like 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.800 there are a few well trodden paths in the pr playbook. 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.320 There's the motherhood path, there's the I've been to rehab 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.280 and sort it out my life and now I'm all 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.760 about wellness. Like, there's a few different scripts that you 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.480 can follow when it comes to a comeback story in 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.560 the public lens. The example most recently was from the 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.040 Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper. Now, she got 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.920 hit really recently with this Vanity Fair expose about a 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:20.640 toxic work environment and inappropriate behavior at her company, and 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.480 right in the middle of this scandal breaking, she announced 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:30.800 her pregnancy and her former boss, Dave Portno set it 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.120 on camera. He said, what a trump card, because now 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.000 you're off limits once you're pregnant. 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:37.360 All the hater's got a zipp it. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.240 So and the other thing I was thinking about was 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.040 like historically, like Angelina Jolly is a great example, but 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.960 Paris Hilton's another one. Like she is fascinating and I 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:50.800 love Paris Hilton. I've got a lot of time for 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.760 Paris Hilton. But she came into the spotlight with a 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.040 sex tape. She I don't know if you how far 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.040 back you remember in the early noughties she kind of 0:14:58.040 --> 0:14:59.760 had this part of girl era. She went to jail 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.320 for drink driving. She was arrested for possession of cocaine. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.760 Remember roof Top with Rob Mills. That was an Australian 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:08.640 connection too. 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.920 Yeah, she told people to stop being poor, like she 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:13.960 was pretty universally hated. 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:16.520 Well it was hate or love. 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:21.040 And now she has two children and she's baking muffins 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.720 with them in her pink kitchen and it's she got 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:28.400 a hashtag, the Cutesy Crew, And it's just very very 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.800 interesting the way that motherhood can soften. So, I don't know, 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.640 I just feel like there's all this code, there's all 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.640 this code that comes with being a woman in the 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.040 public eye, and motherhood can either swing you you it 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.040 can either be used to swing you softer and more 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.080 palatable in the public's perception or the other way, like 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.280 more monstrous and bad. 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.040 I feel like the same is happening more and more 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.000 for men, though, particularly celebrity men in the public eye. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.920 Like if I think about Hugh Grant's got five children, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.720 and I definitely think that a lot to rehabilitate. I mean, 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:06.160 he's still kind of a curmudgeon, but to rehabilitate our 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.840 opinions of him, Like Matt Damon was just on red 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.640 carpets for his movie The Odyssey with his four daughters, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.360 Like people do wheel out their kids at times that 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.920 are kind of convenient for them to soften that perception 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.680 of them or to endear them to people. So I 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.720 do feel like it's coming more in for the dads 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.160 as well, that that becomes so much a part of 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:26.680 their brand. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.960 Do you think though with dads? Like I hear what 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.040 you're saying, and I agree. I think it's really true 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.880 that dads are using fatherhood to brand them as wholesome 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.880 and palatable and a good all rounder guy. But can 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:42.680 we just for a moment talk about the brad pit 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.680 of this all. I was trying to think of examples 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.800 in the last five years of men who have had 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.280 major reputational problems, and Brad Pitt's an obvious one. And 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.520 he did this big comeback story in Vogue, this huge 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.240 spread and the p R playbook. There had nothing to 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:02.040 do with fatherhood. It was all about wellness and sobriety 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.400 and also how incredibly hot he still looks at his age. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.520 But that's partly because his children doesn't speak to me. 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.800 Yeah, that's irreparable for him. He would use those children 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.760 if he could, I'm sure, but they have literally erased 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.520 him from their lives and from their names. They are 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.040 no longer pits. They are just Jolie. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.080 I think it's sort of like, if you have the 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.840 tool at your disposal, a Matt Damon, then you use it. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.000 But if you don't, then you've got to pivot hard 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.600 into your jewelry designer girlfriend. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.120 Yeah, that's Brad Pitt's case. 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:32.680 Exactly. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.040 What did Matt Damon do? Remind me? 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.960 He went big onto advertising crypto platforms, like he. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.240 Was completely forgot about that. He must because of the kids. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.679 People thought was really disappointing. Yeah, and also gambling ads. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.200 But I think the kids did a lot of work. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.720 Yeah, yeah, and I think he he is just seen 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.400 as one of those wholesome, you know, celeb dads. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.280 I think I don't want to. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.680 Yeah, I think it's a good point, but I think 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.000 it feels like for men, and I might be wrong here, 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:03.560 but it feels to me like an add on to 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.800 their brand. Like I'm talking about serious reputational rehab here. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.840 Like no one is going to write an article saying 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:17.879 Locky Neil's Surreal New Life as a single dat. For women, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.560 it's weaponized in both ways. You're either like the martyr 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.359 or the monster. And for men, I just think that 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.760 they get much. They just use it as kind of 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:27.680 like a branding add on. 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.040 And out Louder has a dilemma for us, which she 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.600 posted in the Outlauder's Facebook group out Louders, am I 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.040 clutching my pearls here? I feel like every week at 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.880 my child's soccer, instead of walking to the bathroom, more 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.920 and more boys are just taking bush we The thing 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.199 that makes me irritated is everyone thinks it's okay. The 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.959 thing that makes me irritated is everyone thinks it's okay. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.199 I'm guessing as the parents allow it, but if the 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.040 girls did it, they're being uproar and all the girls 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.720 have to trudge themselves to the bathroom every time I 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.800 want my daughter to the toilets. She's a preschooler. All 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.840 the boys have just nipped into the bush, and I 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.640 just think it is unfair and also a bit gross, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.760 so I make my son, who is actually playing, walk 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.520 to the bathroom. I might be being over dramatic, though, Stacy. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:20.080 Such a good dilemma because it is different rules for 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.440 boys and girls, and it shouldn't be that way. Look, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.280 I think just because you can pee in the bush 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.520 without wetting your pant leg doesn't mean you should, and 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.800 it's I think it is setting a bad example if 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.680 you're just letting your boys trot off and do that 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:35.639 when girls have to go all the way over to 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.600 the bathroom. But equally, I'm kind of sympathetic to the 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.840 parents too, because I know that there is nothing more 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.520 annoying and that and worse timing than a kid who 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.000 needs to weak like it's always at the most annoying. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.679 I'm gonna push you for a verdict, though, what should happen. 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.000