Speaker 1: Welcome to Parenting Out Loud. This is the podcast with
Speaker 1: what parents are thinking about. I'm not Eat Bowli.
Speaker 2: I'm Amelia Leicester and I'm Stacey Hicks and I'm so
Speaker 2: happy to be back with you both. Sweet I am
Speaker 2: away convention, the Sea Monkey convention that you accuse me
Speaker 2: of being out. Yeah, it was great. Actually I've got
Speaker 2: a full tank in my house now. But thank you
Speaker 2: for asking.
Speaker 3: Are they alive?
Speaker 2: No, they're not.
Speaker 3: No comment coming up today?
Speaker 2: What are the rules of a kid's bush? We a
Speaker 2: listener dilemma has raised a very important question for us.
Speaker 4: We need to talk about swearing in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 4: There is one place where it has completely disappeared and
Speaker 4: there's one place where it's on the rise.
Speaker 1: And when a public image gets complicated, is motherhood the
Speaker 1: ultimate reputation rehab?
Speaker 2: But first, I cannot believe it has taken me this
Speaker 2: long to bring up Harry Styles on this show. I
Speaker 2: even have him on my shirt today. Such is the
Speaker 2: fangirl in me. But I finally found a way in
Speaker 2: for this podcast, and that is to tell you this.
Speaker 2: Harry Styles and his sister Gemma Styles are the gold
Speaker 2: standard of siblings. They are what families dream of when
Speaker 2: they have multiple kids. And that is because this weekend
Speaker 2: Harry Styles broke the Wembley Stadium record for the most
Speaker 2: consecutive shows at that stadium in a row. He did twelve,
Speaker 2: and when you consider there's ninety thousand seats in that
Speaker 2: stadium sold out, twelve sold out shows incredible, incredible effort.
Speaker 4: And he's also just like jogging around London all the time, insane.
Speaker 2: He basically does a marathon every night and then ran
Speaker 2: to one of the shows. Yeah, just jogged to one
Speaker 2: of his own shows at Wembley Stadium. He is my favorite.
Speaker 2: But to surprise him at his twelfth show, they brought
Speaker 2: out his sister, Gemma onto the stage. Now, Gemma is
Speaker 2: not as comfortable on the stage as Harry is. You
Speaker 2: can tell that she doesn't like being there, but she's
Speaker 2: there to celebrate him. And I want to play you
Speaker 2: a little of what she said. I apologize in advance
Speaker 2: for all the screaming in the background you're going to hear,
Speaker 2: but this is all me, but it's worth listening. I
Speaker 2: don't think.
Speaker 4: Of you as.
Speaker 2: At all in say today life.
Speaker 5: I think of you as a brother and an uncle
Speaker 5: and a best friend.
Speaker 6: And seeing.
Speaker 5: The incredible community that has formed around you is.
Speaker 4: Just indescribable.
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 5: I'm not just proud because you've done things like this,
Speaker 5: which nobody does. I'm proud of who you are and
Speaker 5: who you allow other people to be, and just the
Speaker 5: impact that you've made on so many, not least us
Speaker 5: who get to love you in real life.
Speaker 2: And what privilege that is.
Speaker 4: Thank you for being you.
Speaker 2: Thanks to lay Oh jeez, it's real.
Speaker 1: Twenty first birthday speech say that for the party, Gema
Speaker 1: were there to see the music, We're there to see
Speaker 1: Harry perform.
Speaker 2: We know not a lot about Gemma. So she has
Speaker 2: a public Instagram that keeps things very private. So she's
Speaker 2: got a young child, but her life is not in
Speaker 2: the spotlight like Harry's is. But I just it A
Speaker 2: little bit of it hit me in the fields because
Speaker 2: I only have one child, this little pang of guilt
Speaker 2: of oh, imagine what that could be if your kids
Speaker 2: grew up and loved one another that much. But then
Speaker 2: I remember that this is the best case scenario. This
Speaker 2: is like top tier. And just when I thought I
Speaker 2: could not be more emotional about this. Their mum Anne
Speaker 2: and entered the chat. Now, Anne loves Instagram. Anne loves
Speaker 2: an Instagram post and she posted a photo of the
Speaker 2: two of them as kids, and I just want to
Speaker 2: read you what she wrote on it. She said, how
Speaker 2: could I have possibly known then that he would break
Speaker 2: records doing exactly what he was put in this world
Speaker 2: to do, that he would grow up to be the
Speaker 2: kind of man the world needs right now? My gorgeous
Speaker 2: girl has loved and protected him always, even when he
Speaker 2: was the annoying little brother to his quiet, studious big sister.
Speaker 2: I could not be prouder of you both as humans,
Speaker 2: as siblings, and as my babies, knowing you're always there
Speaker 2: for me, but more importantly for each other. That's my
Speaker 2: biggest achievement. That is my award.
Speaker 6: That's so lovely.
Speaker 2: I love them.
Speaker 4: There's an Atlantic headline I think about all the time
Speaker 4: which said, the longest relationship of your life will be
Speaker 4: the one with your sibling.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, then with you from the start, from the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well good on him and did good?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Can we just take a really quick moment to just
Speaker 1: recognize that siblings are romanticized in culture?
Speaker 6: Like this is.
Speaker 1: Lovely and I'm with you. It's lovely and we need more.
Speaker 1: It's nice to see a British family that are in
Speaker 1: the spol that are functional and have good relationships, and
Speaker 1: I don't begrudge them that, But Stacy, why do you
Speaker 1: keep doing this to yourself?
Speaker 3: Like sibling?
Speaker 1: You looked at the sibling effect on a recent episode
Speaker 1: and there are so many ways that siblings are romanticized
Speaker 1: in culture, and we love to shine a light on them.
Speaker 1: But for every Harry and Gemma styles, there is also
Speaker 1: a Liam and Nol Gallagher.
Speaker 4: So I don't think Liam and Nol Gallagher are worst
Speaker 4: case scenario. They're like extremely successful musicians have given the
Speaker 4: world like Greek gifts from their sibling relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't mean that.
Speaker 1: I mean that their Di Siberant relationship probably is a
Speaker 1: bit dysfunction.
Speaker 6: Agree, but it did pretty underwall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, true, so something good did come out of it.
Speaker 2: And the other thing I want to bring up with
Speaker 2: you guys this week that caught my eye was this
Speaker 2: article in the Sydney Morning Herald about the fact that
Speaker 2: Australian schools are now introducing codes of conduct not for
Speaker 2: the students but for the parents because of bad behavior. Essentially,
Speaker 2: the parents are meddling too much and they needed to
Speaker 2: do something to fix this. So the headmaster of Barker
Speaker 2: College in Sydney's North Shore spoke about how they're getting
Speaker 2: all the parents to sign this charter basically agreeing to
Speaker 2: behave themselves more because things have moved from what he
Speaker 2: described as a parent teacher relationship into consumer behavior and
Speaker 2: being like, I've paid for this and so this is
Speaker 2: what I demand from you as a product. I thought
Speaker 2: this was so interesting, talking about parents being passionate not
Speaker 2: being the problem, the problem being that some parents resist
Speaker 2: teachers authority over their children, but expect that that authority
Speaker 2: is done to other children. It's kind of like, not
Speaker 2: my kid, don't do that to my kid, but make
Speaker 2: sure you're keeping all the other kids in line. I
Speaker 2: thought that that was fascinating. Do you think this has
Speaker 2: cotton so bad now or has it always been like this?
Speaker 4: Oh? I think I'd take that principal's word for it.
Speaker 4: That there's now this sense that schools are almost like
Speaker 4: luxury hotels for a lot of parents. And there was
Speaker 4: an article in the Australian Financial Review just recently about
Speaker 4: how school fees are increasing at double the rate of
Speaker 4: general inflation. This is obviously private school fees. Child started
Speaker 4: at say a Geelong Grammar this year, you'll be up
Speaker 4: for one point two million dollars over thirteen years of school.
Speaker 6: So if you're.
Speaker 4: Paying one point two million dollars, I guess you kind
Speaker 4: of expect things to go your way and you want
Speaker 4: the customer service to match.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And the other thing I saw people talking
Speaker 2: about was that now because of WhatsApp groups, Facebook school
Speaker 2: Facebook groups, it being more instantaneous. There is this like
Speaker 2: instant gratification from kind of sharing that publicly or making
Speaker 2: the complaints publicly, and then it almost becomes like a
Speaker 2: mob mentality of all. I've seen that parent complaining, so
Speaker 2: now I'm going to complain about this, Like everyone's airing
Speaker 2: their grievances more in a public square, whereas once upon
Speaker 2: a time that would have been a meeting between you
Speaker 2: and the teacher and that's the end of it. It's
Speaker 2: so interesting to see it's spiraling to this point.
Speaker 1: I just want to flip this for a second because
Speaker 1: I saw something on Instagram that made my jaw drop,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't happen so often these days. But there's
Speaker 1: an Australian content creator comedian he must be a teacher.
Speaker 1: He doesn't say that in his bio and his name's
Speaker 1: Tyson Poppleston and he has this series where he reads
Speaker 1: out emails from parents and he says, this series has
Speaker 1: tens of millions of views, and he says, these are
Speaker 1: all real emails that I'm getting from parents. He reads
Speaker 1: them out, includes children's names, and I think that kind
Speaker 1: of speaks as well to like the erosion of trust
Speaker 1: between parents and schools that we have now. It's very
Speaker 1: them versus us and not super constructive.
Speaker 2: Because, as you say, if you're forking out big dollars,
Speaker 2: be your kid to go somewhere, like you do kind
Speaker 2: of have a leg to stand on right in wanting
Speaker 2: to make sure that they're getting they're getting a good
Speaker 2: education out of that. So I mean, where's the line.
Speaker 1: There was a big story in the news this week,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to talk about the story. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about the media mechanics behind it. So
Speaker 1: it's about Sam Kerr, who's Australia's best footballer, one of
Speaker 1: the world's best footballers in fact, and this week, and
Speaker 1: when I say football, I mean soccer for the Australians
Speaker 1: and this week she signed the biggest contract of her career.
Speaker 1: This is a deal worth millions of dollars and she's
Speaker 1: got a World Cup on the horizon and it's probably
Speaker 1: the biggest career chapter of her life. But the headline
Speaker 1: that I saw was this. It was in the Herald
Speaker 1: Sun and it was Sam Kerr reveals world Cup goal
Speaker 1: and her surreal new life as a mum. And the
Speaker 1: article is sort of framed a little bit around how
Speaker 1: motherhood has changed her. Now you probably are thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: I know where this is going, right. You're waiting for
Speaker 1: me to say. Can you imagine if they wrote this
Speaker 1: about a man like they would never write David Beckham
Speaker 1: is soccer's best dad. And yes, that headline would never happen.
Speaker 1: And that conversation is a real conversation, it's worth having.
Speaker 1: But it's not what I want to talk about today.
Speaker 1: I want to go somewhere different because I want to
Speaker 1: talk about how the media uses motherhood to swing public
Speaker 1: perception of women.
Speaker 6: Oh are you with me? Are with me?
Speaker 3: Does this sound horribly boring? Okay, because here's why. Here's why.
Speaker 1: Here's my thesis. So Sam Kerr has had a pretty
Speaker 1: tricky year publicly. She had an injury, a terrible injury,
Speaker 1: she had time off the game. She was found not
Speaker 1: guilty of racially aggravated harassment of a London police officer.
Speaker 1: She was acquitted, she was cleared, it was done, but
Speaker 1: the trial kind of ran her name through the ring
Speaker 1: of a bit. And so now as she steps back
Speaker 1: into the public frame, I was just really interested to
Speaker 1: see the framing of this headline, not as like fierce
Speaker 1: comeback queen, but as mum.
Speaker 3: And now I'm not saying that Sam.
Speaker 1: Kerr or her PR team are like purposely weaponizing motherhood
Speaker 1: at all. I don't think that that's what she's doing,
Speaker 1: but I just did want to take note of the
Speaker 1: work that the word mum and motherhood is doing when
Speaker 1: it gets attached to a woman like Sam Kerr. Here,
Speaker 1: So I guess, I guess the question is this, like Amelia,
Speaker 1: when a woman has a bad run of press or
Speaker 1: a bad I don't know, reputation, Maybe a bad run
Speaker 1: of press is probably the way to say it. Does
Speaker 1: this pivot the kind of framing of motherhood smooth things
Speaker 1: over and humanize them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting observation, And I
Speaker 4: guess what you're saying, is that introducing the word mum
Speaker 4: kind of at the very least changes the conversation with that,
Speaker 4: like you know, blunts the sharp edges of a personality
Speaker 4: or softens a woman's image in.
Speaker 6: The public eye.
Speaker 4: I thought immediately here of Angelina Jolie, because if you're
Speaker 4: of a certain age, you're going to remember that Angelina
Speaker 4: had a real wild child era that seems really dissonant
Speaker 4: with how we think of her today as a humanitarian advocate.
Speaker 4: So she used to wear her husband's blood around her
Speaker 4: neck and a vial. She kissed her brother at an
Speaker 4: award show. But it's been reported that around the year
Speaker 4: two thousand, when she was filming tomb Rader in Cambodia,
Speaker 4: her eyes were really open to the fact that were
Speaker 4: children around the world living in extreme poverty. She saw
Speaker 4: humanitarian crisis first hand. She became a global human rights advocate,
Speaker 4: and she also became a mother. She adopted her son, Maddox,
Speaker 4: shortly after that experience in two thousand and two, and
Speaker 4: then thereafter I think we started to think of Angelina
Speaker 4: Jolie totally differently from her nineties wild child roots.
Speaker 6: So I guess what I'm wondering about.
Speaker 4: Is is that always like a cynical pivot to say, like, look,
Speaker 4: now I'm a mother, you don't get to ask me
Speaker 4: about the blood I used to wear around my neck.
Speaker 4: Or is it, in fact just that natural softening that
Speaker 4: can occur when you have to look after someone who
Speaker 4: is not you, when you do undergo change when you
Speaker 4: become a mum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Mon's about that. This
Speaker 2: is you know, we could be cynical and say that
Speaker 2: people are doing this to give someone a reputation overhaul.
Speaker 2: But as you say, meals impossible not to change as
Speaker 2: much as all of us say.
Speaker 6: And I know that's dangerous ground.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I don't want to say.
Speaker 4: We're not saying here like mothers are inherently better, no
Speaker 4: generous and thoughtful. We're just saying you change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. It doesn't necessarily make you a good
Speaker 2: person in any way, but you're kind of forced to
Speaker 2: be a bit more selfless. You're forced to kind of
Speaker 2: think about someone outside yourself. So it's natural that that
Speaker 2: does change your perception of the world around you. And
Speaker 2: there is kind of that softening, as much as we
Speaker 2: kind of rail against it.
Speaker 1: I don't agree, And I'll get to that in a minute,
Speaker 1: because it's not always softening. Sometimes it works in the
Speaker 1: other direction. But I think what I what you're talking
Speaker 1: about is true, and I think two things can be
Speaker 1: true at the same time. But what I'm talking about
Speaker 1: is public perception, right, And I think if I was
Speaker 1: advising someone on a comeback after a public scandal, like
Speaker 1: there are a few well trodden paths in the pr playbook.
Speaker 1: There's the motherhood path, there's the I've been to rehab
Speaker 1: and sort it out my life and now I'm all
Speaker 1: about wellness. Like, there's a few different scripts that you
Speaker 1: can follow when it comes to a comeback story in
Speaker 1: the public lens. The example most recently was from the
Speaker 1: Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper. Now, she got
Speaker 1: hit really recently with this Vanity Fair expose about a
Speaker 1: toxic work environment and inappropriate behavior at her company, and
Speaker 1: right in the middle of this scandal breaking, she announced
Speaker 1: her pregnancy and her former boss, Dave Portno set it
Speaker 1: on camera. He said, what a trump card, because now
Speaker 1: you're off limits once you're pregnant.
Speaker 3: All the hater's got a zipp it.
Speaker 1: So and the other thing I was thinking about was
Speaker 1: like historically, like Angelina Jolly is a great example, but
Speaker 1: Paris Hilton's another one. Like she is fascinating and I
Speaker 1: love Paris Hilton. I've got a lot of time for
Speaker 1: Paris Hilton. But she came into the spotlight with a
Speaker 1: sex tape. She I don't know if you how far
Speaker 1: back you remember in the early noughties she kind of
Speaker 1: had this part of girl era. She went to jail
Speaker 1: for drink driving. She was arrested for possession of cocaine.
Speaker 2: Remember roof Top with Rob Mills. That was an Australian
Speaker 2: connection too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she told people to stop being poor, like she
Speaker 1: was pretty universally hated.
Speaker 3: Well it was hate or love.
Speaker 1: And now she has two children and she's baking muffins
Speaker 1: with them in her pink kitchen and it's she got
Speaker 1: a hashtag, the Cutesy Crew, And it's just very very
Speaker 1: interesting the way that motherhood can soften. So, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just feel like there's all this code, there's all
Speaker 1: this code that comes with being a woman in the
Speaker 1: public eye, and motherhood can either swing you you it
Speaker 1: can either be used to swing you softer and more
Speaker 1: palatable in the public's perception or the other way, like
Speaker 1: more monstrous and bad.
Speaker 2: I feel like the same is happening more and more
Speaker 2: for men, though, particularly celebrity men in the public eye.
Speaker 2: Like if I think about Hugh Grant's got five children,
Speaker 2: and I definitely think that a lot to rehabilitate. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's still kind of a curmudgeon, but to rehabilitate our
Speaker 2: opinions of him, Like Matt Damon was just on red
Speaker 2: carpets for his movie The Odyssey with his four daughters,
Speaker 2: Like people do wheel out their kids at times that
Speaker 2: are kind of convenient for them to soften that perception
Speaker 2: of them or to endear them to people. So I
Speaker 2: do feel like it's coming more in for the dads
Speaker 2: as well, that that becomes so much a part of
Speaker 2: their brand.
Speaker 1: Do you think though with dads? Like I hear what
Speaker 1: you're saying, and I agree. I think it's really true
Speaker 1: that dads are using fatherhood to brand them as wholesome
Speaker 1: and palatable and a good all rounder guy. But can
Speaker 1: we just for a moment talk about the brad pit
Speaker 1: of this all. I was trying to think of examples
Speaker 1: in the last five years of men who have had
Speaker 1: major reputational problems, and Brad Pitt's an obvious one. And
Speaker 1: he did this big comeback story in Vogue, this huge
Speaker 1: spread and the p R playbook. There had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with fatherhood. It was all about wellness and sobriety
Speaker 1: and also how incredibly hot he still looks at his age.
Speaker 6: But that's partly because his children doesn't speak to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's irreparable for him. He would use those children
Speaker 2: if he could, I'm sure, but they have literally erased
Speaker 2: him from their lives and from their names. They are
Speaker 2: no longer pits. They are just Jolie.
Speaker 4: I think it's sort of like, if you have the
Speaker 4: tool at your disposal, a Matt Damon, then you use it.
Speaker 4: But if you don't, then you've got to pivot hard
Speaker 4: into your jewelry designer girlfriend.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's Brad Pitt's case.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 3: What did Matt Damon do? Remind me?
Speaker 4: He went big onto advertising crypto platforms, like he.
Speaker 2: Was completely forgot about that. He must because of the kids.
Speaker 4: People thought was really disappointing. Yeah, and also gambling ads.
Speaker 4: But I think the kids did a lot of work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think he he is just seen
Speaker 2: as one of those wholesome, you know, celeb dads.
Speaker 3: I think I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a good point, but I think
Speaker 1: it feels like for men, and I might be wrong here,
Speaker 1: but it feels to me like an add on to
Speaker 1: their brand. Like I'm talking about serious reputational rehab here.
Speaker 1: Like no one is going to write an article saying
Speaker 1: Locky Neil's Surreal New Life as a single dat. For women,
Speaker 1: it's weaponized in both ways. You're either like the martyr
Speaker 1: or the monster. And for men, I just think that
Speaker 1: they get much. They just use it as kind of
Speaker 1: like a branding add on.
Speaker 4: And out Louder has a dilemma for us, which she
Speaker 4: posted in the Outlauder's Facebook group out Louders, am I
Speaker 4: clutching my pearls here? I feel like every week at
Speaker 4: my child's soccer, instead of walking to the bathroom, more
Speaker 4: and more boys are just taking bush we The thing
Speaker 4: that makes me irritated is everyone thinks it's okay. The
Speaker 4: thing that makes me irritated is everyone thinks it's okay.
Speaker 4: I'm guessing as the parents allow it, but if the
Speaker 4: girls did it, they're being uproar and all the girls
Speaker 4: have to trudge themselves to the bathroom every time I
Speaker 4: want my daughter to the toilets. She's a preschooler. All
Speaker 4: the boys have just nipped into the bush, and I
Speaker 4: just think it is unfair and also a bit gross,
Speaker 4: so I make my son, who is actually playing, walk
Speaker 4: to the bathroom. I might be being over dramatic, though, Stacy.
Speaker 2: Such a good dilemma because it is different rules for
Speaker 2: boys and girls, and it shouldn't be that way. Look,
Speaker 2: I think just because you can pee in the bush
Speaker 2: without wetting your pant leg doesn't mean you should, and
Speaker 2: it's I think it is setting a bad example if
Speaker 2: you're just letting your boys trot off and do that
Speaker 2: when girls have to go all the way over to
Speaker 2: the bathroom. But equally, I'm kind of sympathetic to the
Speaker 2: parents too, because I know that there is nothing more
Speaker 2: annoying and that and worse timing than a kid who
Speaker 2: needs to weak like it's always at the most annoying.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna push you for a verdict, though, what should happen.
Speaker 2: I think the boys should stop doing the bushways. To
Speaker 2: be honest, I think the boys should stop doing the bushways.
Speaker 2: I think you can do it like at home or
Speaker 2: wherever if you're at But when you're at a home,
Speaker 2: well you know, in your backyard, like fine, like it's
Speaker 2: your own space. But I think if you're at an
Speaker 2: organized sport and there's a bathroom available, you should be
Speaker 2: going to it. Bushwee's worst case scenario on Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the top comments on this were mum of
Speaker 1: three here for old enough to play team sports, they're
Speaker 1: old enough to use the toilet. And from Mel who says,
Speaker 1: I'm a teacher and we are finding some of the
Speaker 1: boys do this outside when they're playing, far from the bathrooms.
Speaker 1: That's five year olds and up that are doing this,
Speaker 1: that are doing bushweed's at school. What that's not okay?
Speaker 3: It's not okay.
Speaker 2: What do you think about it?
Speaker 6: You're not going to like it?
Speaker 2: You're a bit more lass, you're okay.
Speaker 4: I think, Look, we're talking about preschoolers and we're not yakout.
Speaker 2: That is true.
Speaker 6: With those two facts established.
Speaker 4: I think I think the girls can do bushweeze too.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, girls can do bushweeds.
Speaker 2: I've never successfully done are in my life. Corse stress, Well,
Speaker 2: that is what I'm lacking, evidently, because I've never successfully
Speaker 2: who has a lot of corese drink pre school four
Speaker 2: year olds exactly like for days.
Speaker 1: You have to teach them these life skills now, Stacy,
Speaker 1: because soon they're going to be a teenager. Your daughter
Speaker 1: will be a teenager. She'll be in her early twenties.
Speaker 1: She'll be out drinking with her friends. She'll be walking
Speaker 1: home from the pub. She won't know what to do.
Speaker 1: She needs to be out of pop a squat in
Speaker 1: the gutter. It is a right of Australian passage and
Speaker 1: it needs to be.
Speaker 2: Taught from a young age. But I'm going to bring
Speaker 2: in the tall factor here, Mon's. I don't know whether
Speaker 2: you feel this way. That is a big altitude drop down.
Speaker 2: Oh you are a six foot two woman down to
Speaker 2: doing a squad that's fine.
Speaker 4: Sorry, that's a lot of the pre schoolers to you, Stacy.
Speaker 4: I'm not advocating you the bushweeze. I'm saying pre school
Speaker 4: girl and boys can do bushwheeze.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, your last bushwee Amelia.
Speaker 4: Oh look, I don't do bushwheeze, but people I know
Speaker 4: who maybe of preschool or thereabouts age, enjoy a bushwee
Speaker 4: every now and then.
Speaker 2: So we're saying five and below bush wee till your
Speaker 2: heart's content five enough, probably go to the Okay, we
Speaker 2: solved the fertilizer.
Speaker 1: F YI, there's a woman on Instagram who has an
Speaker 1: online course, like a short course on how to teach
Speaker 1: women to we standing up?
Speaker 2: What Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 3: It's all in the public higher algorithm.
Speaker 4: That's exactly the sort of thing I would expect you
Speaker 4: for you page to be.
Speaker 2: Said that and Christmas Tree.
Speaker 4: Yeah, from bodily functions to swearing, parenting out loud covers
Speaker 4: all the taboos. I want to talk about curse words
Speaker 4: because there was a headline I read this week that was.
Speaker 1: With herse words, who says curse with are you an
Speaker 1: English lady in a manner?
Speaker 3: Curse words?
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to come up with synonyms for sweet.
Speaker 2: We're just trying to bring the tone up after saying
Speaker 2: that kids should do bush.
Speaker 4: That's the headline was that music with explicit lyrics is
Speaker 4: in decline, and it draws in a report that found
Speaker 4: the share of explicit songs in Spotify's top fifty has
Speaker 4: fallen sharply in recent years. Now. As a nineties kid,
Speaker 4: I remember the moral panic around song lyrics. It was
Speaker 4: really and they were sort of presented as like naughty
Speaker 4: lyrics were presented as the ultimate societal problem. So it
Speaker 4: feels really curious to me that this is no longer
Speaker 4: something I need to worry about. It's just gone. And
Speaker 4: it got me thinking about where we are with swearing
Speaker 4: as parents. It's a really divisive issue. So I did
Speaker 4: some research in the picture is actually a little bit complicated. Yes,
Speaker 4: swearing has gone down in music and also movies and TV.
Speaker 4: One article I read pointed out that in Back to
Speaker 4: the Future, which is a PG film, one character says
Speaker 4: holy shit, and according to today's ratings, you couldn't get
Speaker 4: the PG rating if someone said.
Speaker 2: That, I've said that, okay.
Speaker 4: At the same time, though, the grumpy old lady on
Speaker 4: the bus complaining about the school kids is correct in
Speaker 4: that kids are swearing more. That's not just in your imagination,
Speaker 4: and they're learning to swear at an earlier age, like
Speaker 4: around two or three, whereas in the nineties it was
Speaker 4: around four or five time, and experts attribute the rise
Speaker 4: in casual swearing to you guessed it, social media, because
Speaker 4: people on social media are saying stuff like WTF and
Speaker 4: the incorporating very casual use of swear. Words, and then
Speaker 4: that's sort of got these knock on effects for kids.
Speaker 6: Okay, so those are all the facts.
Speaker 4: It's a complicated picture, But I want to know how
Speaker 4: we should feel about this new landscape of swearing. Stacy,
Speaker 4: you strike me as a very cool mum. Are you
Speaker 4: one of those like permissive parents who thinks that swearing
Speaker 4: isn't a big deal.
Speaker 2: I don't know where you got that idea, but I
Speaker 2: do think it's a big deal. Like if I was choosing,
Speaker 2: I don't want my child to be swearing here, there
Speaker 2: and everywhere. I do kind of find it funny when
Speaker 2: kids do it, though, But I'm trying to figure out
Speaker 2: where I sit because I do wonder whether if we
Speaker 2: took more of the European approach to alcohol, you know
Speaker 2: how they just, you know, let their kids have a
Speaker 2: sip of wine at the table and it's not a
Speaker 2: big deal. Like if it's just kind of not out
Speaker 2: of reach and it's not seen as this sparse thing,
Speaker 2: then our kids will be less interested in it. Be
Speaker 2: like you're allowed to use bloody yes, Like if you
Speaker 2: stubbed your toe on the lounge and you said, oh shit,
Speaker 2: that's not the worst thing in the world. To me,
Speaker 2: but I think there's a time and a place like
Speaker 2: I think yes, but no I'm not. It's not something
Speaker 2: that I've ever been super restricted with. But I haven't
Speaker 2: crossed that bridge yet, so once, once it starts to happen,
Speaker 2: I may then feel differently about it.
Speaker 4: Mons, do you call bushweese bush pisses around you?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: We call them fucking bushes.
Speaker 1: When in terms of swearing, So, when I was a kid, Tessa,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to bleep this, but I'm not
Speaker 1: going to bleep.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to just say it.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, we as a family were
Speaker 1: leaving a family event and all of us were in
Speaker 1: the car, all six of us, and my brother saw
Speaker 1: his school friends walking along the footpath and he wound
Speaker 1: it down his window as kids do, and he put
Speaker 1: his head out of the window and the wind blowing
Speaker 1: in his hair, he yelled out to them.
Speaker 3: Hey, how old was he? He would have been twelve
Speaker 3: or thirteen.
Speaker 1: My dad drove the car off the road and we
Speaker 1: got the verbal thrashing of a lifetime. I have never
Speaker 1: seen my parents react to anything the way that they
Speaker 1: reacted to that, and the prevailing message to me, who
Speaker 1: was probably nine years old, sitting in the backseat, was Ah,
Speaker 1: there are levels to swearing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'd never seen them react like that before.
Speaker 3: So level one.
Speaker 1: So this is the point, is that he knew it
Speaker 1: was He's not picking up that word from TV or
Speaker 1: from the radio.
Speaker 3: He heard that.
Speaker 1: He certainly didn't hear that word at home. He heard
Speaker 1: it probably in the school yard, and he probably didn't
Speaker 1: realize the weight of what it carried, but he didn't know.
Speaker 1: He just knew that it was a bad word, but
Speaker 1: he didn't know the severity of it.
Speaker 3: And so that's when at that point I was like.
Speaker 1: Yes, there are tears to swearing here, and I think
Speaker 1: I sort of follow that rule in our home, like
Speaker 1: level one. Yeah, oh hell, heck, damn god, damn it,
Speaker 1: damn it god. Maybe level two is your shits and
Speaker 1: your fucks. Level three is what my brother did that day,
Speaker 1: and level three will never ever be repeated.
Speaker 3: So but what's interesting.
Speaker 1: Is that we have this kind of I was watching
Speaker 1: I was watching.
Speaker 4: Office Romance back with the wind out windows, because that
Speaker 4: also took me back in time, wind down windows.
Speaker 6: It took him a while to wind it down, and
Speaker 6: then when it's finally wound down to the bottom.
Speaker 2: He lets read it.
Speaker 1: Was the shame we all burned in the back seat
Speaker 1: with shame for him, and he did too. But then
Speaker 1: then I was watching Office Romance the other night on
Speaker 1: Netflix with j Loo and Brett Goldstein, and there is
Speaker 1: an entire segment about sword where it's said about sixteen times.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, how times have changed.
Speaker 1: But look, I think there's this what's interesting. There's this
Speaker 1: weird trend at the moment, this sort of like public
Speaker 1: facing version of my brother in the back seat where
Speaker 1: it's called the swearing challenge.
Speaker 3: Have you seen this?
Speaker 1: It's on sort of TikTok and Instagram where parents will
Speaker 1: set up their phone in the room and say, now, darling,
Speaker 1: I'm going out for you get one minute and you
Speaker 1: get to get all the swearing out of your system. Okay,
Speaker 1: you just absolutely go for it. Okay, no one's here,
Speaker 1: no one's listening.
Speaker 6: It's just psychologists approved.
Speaker 4: Or is it just like a thing people are doing
Speaker 4: for clout, Like, what is the sort of therapeutic benefit
Speaker 4: of this.
Speaker 1: Zero therapeutic benefit complete content Vickory. Yeah, an engagement metrics.
Speaker 1: And because it's sixty seconds, you stay and you watch
Speaker 1: the entire video, and then your algorithm feeds you more
Speaker 1: of these things.
Speaker 3: So here's an.
Speaker 1: Example of one that has twenty one million views.
Speaker 4: Okay, you have one minute to say any bad words
Speaker 4: you want and you won't get in trouble.
Speaker 2: But you can only say this one minute in the bathroom.
Speaker 7: Okay, Okay, how stupid, hideous, idious?
Speaker 6: I know, mons.
Speaker 4: I feel like I want to present the case that
Speaker 4: is becoming an increasingly popular position amongst parents for why
Speaker 4: swearing is not a big deal. Now that's it's personally
Speaker 4: not what I feel, but I want to present there
Speaker 4: please might of the argument. So there was an ABC
Speaker 4: article that interviewed various experts who attested to the fact
Speaker 4: that swearing is part of the Australian definition of self.
Speaker 4: It is UnAustralian not to let your children swear. That's
Speaker 4: the first point. Second point they made is that it
Speaker 4: can be used as a cudgel to kind of ostracize
Speaker 4: vulnerable groups. Like if you make swearing out to be
Speaker 4: a really big deal, you're essentially kind of like creating
Speaker 4: a class marker. You're saying we're better than a lot
Speaker 4: of other people, and that is not actually accurate. It's
Speaker 4: just sort of like a mannerism that you've declared unacceptable.
Speaker 4: And then there's been this state of opinion articles by
Speaker 4: mums who allow swearing in the home, and what it
Speaker 4: comes down to for them is that they feel it
Speaker 4: creates a more honest channel of communication between parents and
Speaker 4: children because you're focusing on emotions not words, and they
Speaker 4: say it leads to calmer interactions because kids can you know,
Speaker 4: kids don't necessarily have an adult vocabulary. They're trying to
Speaker 4: reach for the words that most accurately describe how they're feeling.
Speaker 4: And to sort of fixate on certain words as not
Speaker 4: appropriate or to get irrationally angry about kids using those
Speaker 4: words makes the kids scared to communicate in general. So
Speaker 4: the argument goes, are we convinced by any of that?
Speaker 1: I'm not, no, but I am convinced by something Stacey
Speaker 1: said earlier about stubbing the toe and swearing, And because
Speaker 1: I do think in our house we treat swearing as circumstantial,
Speaker 1: is okay.
Speaker 3: And here's the scientific backing. Stay with me.
Speaker 1: There was a study in the UK right where these
Speaker 1: researchers said, we're going to get people to put their
Speaker 1: hands in a bucket of ice like cold, icy water,
Speaker 1: and they said to half of them, you're allowed to
Speaker 1: swear your head head off, Like the challenge is how
Speaker 1: long can you keep your hand in the water. Half
Speaker 1: of you you can go bananas, choose whatever swear word
Speaker 1: you want. And then the other half of the people
Speaker 1: they said, you're only allowed to say the word brown
Speaker 1: or square, right, just words. People that were allowed to
Speaker 1: swear their heads off kept their hand in the bucket
Speaker 1: for up to two times longer than the people they.
Speaker 4: Didn't, because there's some like when I have to put
Speaker 4: my hand in a bucket of ice.
Speaker 1: Yes it is, but it's this like stress release if
Speaker 1: there is a stress release effect on the brain when
Speaker 1: you swear. So I think in our house circumstantial swearing
Speaker 1: is fine. Just no rolling the car window down.
Speaker 4: Am I allowed to just put on my Karen hat
Speaker 4: for a second. I know it was the term Karen,
Speaker 4: but I'm reclaiming it and I'm about to be a
Speaker 4: grumpy middle aged lady complaining. Remember, the millennial version is Jessica,
Speaker 4: So you Jessica, allow me to be a Jessica for
Speaker 4: a second. I am shocked by the adults who think
Speaker 4: it is okay in public to be.
Speaker 6: Just casually using quite I asay's here two slash three
Speaker 6: levels swears out front of children on buses, walking down
Speaker 6: the street, in line at a shop.
Speaker 4: You don't need to reach for the swear word because
Speaker 4: you've got a limited vocabulary.
Speaker 6: Use a word that doesn't involve a swear word. You're
Speaker 6: an adult. You can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's it. I think it's all about
Speaker 2: the appropriate spot for that. And when there's little kids
Speaker 2: around you that aren't yours, then maybe you need to
Speaker 2: like pull it back to a tier one.
Speaker 1: Oh, you just need to use it as a teachable moment,
Speaker 1: teachable moment, a little gentle parenting moment for you, merelya
Speaker 1: you say, hmm, that man was having some big feelings.
Speaker 6: And the actually.
Speaker 1: While calling you a level three swear All right, it
Speaker 1: is time to talk about recommendations. And this part of
Speaker 1: the show we love because we go out there in
Speaker 1: the world, we try things, we buy things, and then
Speaker 1: we bring them back to you. We're like a squirrel
Speaker 1: bringing you back nuts, saying, try this delicious morsel, Stacey,
Speaker 1: what have you got?
Speaker 3: What have you been off? You've been off in the
Speaker 3: wilderness for a week.
Speaker 2: I have I mean I was mostly held all over
Speaker 2: my laptop looking at pictures non existent pictures of tailors.
Speaker 2: Were sweating. But the thing that I bought this is
Speaker 2: my first. I think this is our first double reco
Speaker 2: on the show. I am recalling something that Amelia reco
Speaker 2: that I then went and bought music and it has
Speaker 2: been such a hit me what is it? Okay? So
Speaker 2: it's the Mikadoor color and learn the table cloth color
Speaker 2: in twenty five bucks. They're in Spotlight or Amazon, I
Speaker 2: think from the from the actual website as well, and
Speaker 2: I just laid it out on our dining table. My
Speaker 2: daughter loved it. But then over the weekend we had
Speaker 2: like various groups of friends or whatever come over and
Speaker 2: everyone kids and adults like would just PLoP down coloring
Speaker 2: a little thing and move on.
Speaker 4: Help you stress relieve as you were, yes doing Taylor coverage.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it actually did.
Speaker 2: And then I heard my daughter explaining to one of
Speaker 2: her friends and you know what, this just goes in
Speaker 2: the washing machine and then we can start it again.
Speaker 2: She just thinks it's the greatest thing ever. So yeah,
Speaker 2: fig it double double reco.
Speaker 6: Happy.
Speaker 2: And then I also ordered two more because I'm going
Speaker 2: to give them to people for birthday presents or Christmas
Speaker 2: presents because I'm not uganized.
Speaker 3: Yes, really that is organized.
Speaker 1: Starting your Christmas shopping already, Stacy.
Speaker 2: I'm so proud that you should have known you'd be
Speaker 2: proud of me for that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's also my other reco is now I've started to
Speaker 2: find if I really like something for my daughter, I'm
Speaker 2: just buying two so that those school party things that
Speaker 2: come up then you're not having to go and buy
Speaker 2: for those at that time. So, yeah, that's my reco.
Speaker 2: What's yours? Amelia?
Speaker 4: Love that my reco this week is sitting on the floor.
Speaker 2: I love doing that too.
Speaker 4: It comes from a substack newsletter I love, which I
Speaker 4: guess I'm also recommending. The subset newsletter is called how
Speaker 4: to Move, and it's by a certified personal trainer and
Speaker 4: Pilate's teacher called Anna Maltby. What I love about the
Speaker 4: newsletter is she's body neutral in her approach, which means
Speaker 4: you're never gonna get diet tips. In fact, she's not
Speaker 4: talking about your body and how it looks at all.
Speaker 4: She's focused on functional movement and fitness. So a recent
Speaker 4: newsletter had the subject line, maybe you should sit on
Speaker 4: the floor, and I thought, maybe I should, And she
Speaker 4: explains that, yes, sitting on the floor can be uncomfortable,
Speaker 4: but also there's lots of benefits to doing it. It helps
Speaker 4: with mobility, It encourages small movements because you're having to
Speaker 4: adjust over time, and it can ultimately ease little aches
Speaker 4: and pains because you're kind of figuring out, like how
Speaker 4: your body works in the asymmetry of your body as you.
Speaker 6: Sit on the floor.
Speaker 4: So it is a way that parents can be doing
Speaker 4: something good for their bodies very easily because you're constantly
Speaker 4: sitting on the floor with kids, and then it's a
Speaker 4: way to sort of recast it in your brain away
Speaker 4: from this is uncomfortable and it sucks to maybe it's
Speaker 4: doing something good for me.
Speaker 2: It's just a shame that when you get up from
Speaker 2: the floor you have to make that.
Speaker 6: Ooh noise That is a legal requirement.
Speaker 2: Yes, the nothing I can do about that, but yeah,
Speaker 2: great love it.
Speaker 1: Mine is have either of you ever harbored a desire
Speaker 1: to be a play school presenter?
Speaker 2: I don't think I have the certain.
Speaker 3: No way.
Speaker 4: You never watched it and thought I was Oh no,
Speaker 4: I loved playschool, but Benita, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6: Yeah, God, I can't.
Speaker 2: Absolute goddess could never compare. Clearly you have, yes.
Speaker 3: I thought everyone did.
Speaker 1: This is the closest you'll get to it. So the
Speaker 1: ABC have just done this week an Australian story about
Speaker 1: play School and how it's made sixty years sixty years
Speaker 1: of play School, and so they go back in time
Speaker 1: and they talk about how they made it in the
Speaker 1: start and what it is now and it's, oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's so wholesome and beautiful, and they talked so many
Speaker 1: things I want to tell you about it. It was just
Speaker 1: like amazing. The best part is where they take you
Speaker 1: into like the workshop, how they make all the props
Speaker 1: on the set, and how it's just like the world's
Speaker 1: largest collection of toilet rolls basically, and how they deliberately
Speaker 1: make all the stuff on play School is deliberately made
Speaker 1: so that you can look in your own recycle bin
Speaker 1: and be like, I could do that. That's so great,
Speaker 1: so great. And the other thing I learned is that
Speaker 1: they do this thing called the play School pass. I
Speaker 1: don't know you you would have seen it, but it's
Speaker 1: got a name. It's where they talk down the barrel
Speaker 1: of the camera and then they passed to the next presenter,
Speaker 1: so it would be like this, So for anyone watching
Speaker 1: on YouTube or Apple podcasts, I'm going to do it, Amelia.
Speaker 1: I'm going to pass to you, okay, so get ready, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: So what you have to do, Amelia is put your
Speaker 1: head to the side because I'm about to pass to you. Ready,
Speaker 1: And then I look down the barrel and I do this.
Speaker 1: I go thanks for spending time with me. Let's go
Speaker 1: and see what Amelia is up to.
Speaker 2: Home.
Speaker 1: Mon's it's a place, Mon's.
Speaker 4: I have a question because my kids were a place
Speaker 4: college when we were not living in Australia and didn't have.
Speaker 6: Access to iView.
Speaker 4: Is it still cutting through for kids who used to
Speaker 4: weigh more bells and whistles in their children's entertainment?
Speaker 6: Do you think they.
Speaker 2: Talk about that.
Speaker 1: They talk about how shows are so fast now and
Speaker 1: they deliberately slow things down, and how it's very deliberate,
Speaker 1: how the hosts will ask a question and then pause
Speaker 1: so that kids at home can answer it, like it's
Speaker 1: all very thoughtfully done. But the interesting thing is like
Speaker 1: they talk about how they're really cognizant of it, but
Speaker 1: it has changed from back in the day, like it
Speaker 1: used to be filmed in one thirty minute block, right,
Speaker 1: so if the actors made a mistake, they just had
Speaker 1: to kind of like try and cover it up. But
Speaker 1: now it chops and changes and it's a lot brighter colors,
Speaker 1: a lot more movement in it, and the place will
Speaker 1: pass sort of acts as that while we're still this
Speaker 1: is still a continuous show.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think is your slow viewing. But our kids,
Speaker 4: I'm still watching and responding to it given all the
Speaker 4: other stimuli.
Speaker 6: How available to them?
Speaker 1: Yes they are, they are. And there's some crazy stat
Speaker 1: that Lee Sales talked about how four out of five
Speaker 1: kids in Australia have watched places.
Speaker 6: It's so great.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's a great hope.
Speaker 1: All right, Well that is all we have time for
Speaker 1: this week in Parenting Out Loud.
Speaker 3: Have a great week.
Speaker 1: We will see you back here next Saturday morning or
Speaker 1: on along the weekend or whenever you listen to us.
Speaker 3: Thanks for spending time with us.
Speaker 1: Mummy acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 1: we have recorded this podcast