Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to remember that a
Speaker 1: lot of the things we're starting to see men struggle
Speaker 1: with may have been there all along in some form,
Speaker 1: but the fact that we're starting to see them may
Speaker 1: be a sign that we're starting to break through some
Speaker 1: of those traditionally very powerful ways that the world has
Speaker 1: said this is masculine, this is feminine, because actually, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's biologically often not what
Speaker 1: we are and who we are. That's what society tells
Speaker 1: us we are, and we can change that narrative, and
Speaker 1: I think for men's health, we need to be changing
Speaker 1: that narrative.
Speaker 2: These are the yays of our lives. Busy and happy
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 2: rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your Yeay. Sarah
Speaker 2: Davidson or A spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur
Speaker 2: who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha
Speaker 2: Maiden and matcha Milkbar. CZA is a series of conversations
Speaker 2: on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,
Speaker 2: joy and fulfillment along the way. Welcome back to yeas
Speaker 2: of our lives, Lovelyyighborhood. This one is a bit of
Speaker 2: a cracker in a CZA. First, I didn't write any
Speaker 2: notes to prepare for this episode or edit any of
Speaker 2: it at all, which has never happened before, which is
Speaker 2: both terrifying and liberating as well as a testament to
Speaker 2: what a great conversationalist our guest for the episode truly is.
Speaker 2: I'm joined by absolute legend doctor Kieran Kennedy, a medical doctor, psychiatrist,
Speaker 2: and mental health advocate who first appeared on the show
Speaker 2: back in episode ninety two, which I highly recommend you
Speaker 2: go back and have a listen to for context. It
Speaker 2: is in fact the one year anniversary this week of
Speaker 2: our chat for last year's Men's Health Week, and I
Speaker 2: thought who better to join for a reunion to discuss
Speaker 2: this year's Men's Health Week then Kieran. Kieran is a
Speaker 2: dedicated advocate for redefining societal ideas about masculinity, encouraging open
Speaker 2: conversations about mental health and well being, and has been
Speaker 2: a shining light for many of us through the challenges
Speaker 2: of Victoria's continued lockdowns. He also expertly weaves in amongst
Speaker 2: his technical scientific wisdom, a wicked sense of humor, passion
Speaker 2: for Calf Club which I'll never let him live down
Speaker 2: and which you'll hear all about, and love for seizing
Speaker 2: his yea, making this chat an absolute hoot. We really
Speaker 2: only met properly during last year's episode and haven't known
Speaker 2: each other that long, but he's one of those people
Speaker 2: you instantly trust and can have the most enjoyably tangential
Speaker 2: conversations with. I had also been filming for over fifteen
Speaker 2: hours when we recorded this one, so do please excuse
Speaker 2: my delirium. I usually don't let my crazy out of
Speaker 2: the bag that much, but hopefully you get a few
Speaker 2: laughs out of it, as well as a more serious
Speaker 2: practical insights on managing your mental health. Doctor Kieran Kennedy
Speaker 2: and Calf Club member extraordinaire, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited, Sira, Thank you for having me, thank
Speaker 1: you for having Calf Club, having Lammy it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to be back. What can I say? Oh my god?
Speaker 2: Okay, firstly, everyone, you know I'm usually pretty planned out
Speaker 2: and researched. I have done zero planning. We have both
Speaker 2: been going for like twelve hour days and this is
Speaker 2: going to be an absolute joy. I can already feel it.
Speaker 2: I'm so delirious.
Speaker 1: I feel humbled actually that you that you feel safe
Speaker 1: enough with me, mate to let me on the Delirious podcast.
Speaker 1: This is I'm touched.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, we went for a walk recently, and not
Speaker 2: even in a delirious state, like completely well rested, we
Speaker 2: ended up talking about UFOs and questions the universe. There's
Speaker 2: nothing I could say to you that would surprise you.
Speaker 2: I don't feel so it's always a safe place.
Speaker 1: Now. Remember one thing you said to me on that
Speaker 1: walk was surprising, the Yosemite Vigimi rabbit hole. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. I'm a psych I've heard a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: but that that kind of blew the little peanut brain
Speaker 1: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I have actually blown the mind of a doctor of psychiatry. Wow,
Speaker 2: wow done. Wow. So context there are so many things
Speaker 2: we need to provide context for here. Firstly, during our walk.
Speaker 2: We were really just off on twenty five million tangents,
Speaker 2: which is such a joy. And this is why I
Speaker 2: love chatting to you, because we just go off in
Speaker 2: all directions. I decided to let you in on my
Speaker 2: theory of why your seventy National Park in the States
Speaker 2: is pronounced wrong because okase In points too much the
Speaker 2: United States. You have named one of your national parks
Speaker 2: incorrectly because veggiemite is not vegemity. I win, and.
Speaker 1: Again, as a psychiatry doctor, I had no comeback or
Speaker 1: argument to that it is at all. I was just
Speaker 1: a bit stumped.
Speaker 2: So I feel like it really upset you, like you
Speaker 2: were posting stories about it later that day, like it
Speaker 2: was really affecting your well being.
Speaker 1: I mean, lockdown, I've been fine worth the pandemic sweet,
Speaker 1: but that was like strong on Camel's back. That sort
Speaker 1: of broke me.
Speaker 2: So you're so welcome. It's a mystery of the universe.
Speaker 2: It really is. I should write to the President and
Speaker 2: just address the concerns that I have with the seventy
Speaker 2: National Park. Second thing we need to provide context for
Speaker 2: is calf Club and Lammy, because anyone who hasn't heard
Speaker 2: your wonderful, wonderful episode of CZA. This is not your
Speaker 2: first time on the podcast exactly a year ago. Actually,
Speaker 2: it's just Men's Health Week twenty twenty one has just finished,
Speaker 2: so that makes this our anniversary so much yay. So
Speaker 2: can you let us in on the secret of what
Speaker 2: calf Club actually is and why every time I see
Speaker 2: you I have to mention it and ask how lamb
Speaker 2: he's going back in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: H I mean, it's a pleasure. I was going to say,
Speaker 1: I feel like last time to set you off, so
Speaker 1: I'm really ready to do that a second time. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about neuropsychiatry and mental health calf Club Boom.
Speaker 1: We talked about lambs for about two hours straight.
Speaker 2: So basically I had you on the show to discuss
Speaker 2: men's health because as a doctor of psychiatry in Men's
Speaker 2: Health Week, you had just graced the cover of Men's
Speaker 2: Health magazine. I thought it was really important to address,
Speaker 2: you know, breaking down the stereotypes we have of masculinity
Speaker 2: and talking about the mental health challenges we were all
Speaker 2: facing in Lockdown last year. And somehow in my research
Speaker 2: I unearthed that actually your launch into the stratosphere of
Speaker 2: the universe was calf Club back in New Zealand, which
Speaker 2: is can you explain for all the mainlanders in here?
Speaker 1: Once a year in New Zealand, most rural country schools
Speaker 1: will do what we call calf Club and it's a
Speaker 1: big call. But it may or may not be the
Speaker 1: best day of the entire year.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going on in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's like a bit of a like a
Speaker 1: fair day at school. There's kind of stalls and everything,
Speaker 1: but the main event is everyone raises a little calf
Speaker 1: or a lamb and you and you compete, so you
Speaker 1: will lead them around little courses or your practice who's
Speaker 1: raised the best one and judges will come around and judge.
Speaker 2: It makes me so happy. But what makes me even
Speaker 2: more happy is that every time I tell someone who
Speaker 2: you are. Like I was saying to my mum the
Speaker 2: other day, I went for a really nice walk with Kieren,
Speaker 2: She's like, who's Kieren. I was like, calf Club. She's like, oh,
Speaker 2: kiers that. Every time every time I explain it to someone,
Speaker 2: I then show them Lammy, who is your award winning
Speaker 2: like calf Club award winning lamb? And everyone's like, that's
Speaker 2: not a calf like. What's happening?
Speaker 1: And in a shocking modern twist, I've been told that
Speaker 1: kids also have chickens now as well, So that's an
Speaker 1: ad point for you, mate, But oh my god.
Speaker 2: What's happened to tradition?
Speaker 1: Honestly, this is going to spiral down into a calf club.
Speaker 2: It's already, sir, I can literally I was trying to
Speaker 2: be serious just before. I can't hold it in it.
Speaker 2: Just if you need yay today, just look up calf
Speaker 2: club like. It is just such a joyful concept. We
Speaker 2: just don't have it here.
Speaker 1: If anyone needs a laugh, I'll resind you that photo mate,
Speaker 1: of me with my bowl cut at ten years old
Speaker 1: with Lammy and.
Speaker 2: It's in my favorites. It's in my favorites. You don't
Speaker 2: need a recent entry.
Speaker 1: It's a definite laugh. If you need a little bit
Speaker 1: of a yay and your day, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, thank you for joining me on this episode.
Speaker 2: That's all I need for today and bye. That was
Speaker 2: such a great chat. But in all seriousness, apart from
Speaker 2: being a calf club champion extraordinaire, you are an extremely
Speaker 2: accomplished qualified doctor of psychiatry who's doing wonderful things in
Speaker 2: the world of mental health for men in particular, but
Speaker 2: for everyone generally, and being a wonderful spokesperson for mental
Speaker 2: health in a time where it's probably been challenged more
Speaker 2: than it really ever has been in it our memories.
Speaker 2: So I thought for today's yas of our lives, because
Speaker 2: I have done zero preparation, that I would let you
Speaker 2: choose the quote of the A and see if there
Speaker 2: was anything that had kind of come up for you
Speaker 2: in the last I mean, we've just come out of
Speaker 2: Lockdown number four after having done our last episode in
Speaker 2: Lockdown number miscellaneous number. Who knows what has the last
Speaker 2: couple of weeks been like for you? And is there
Speaker 2: a quote that you wanted to chat about today?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I mean, as always, mate, that was way
Speaker 1: too kind. And you know, I won't tell everyone the
Speaker 1: horrible things you tell me when behind closed doors and
Speaker 1: we're just hanging out as mate, but.
Speaker 2: When I pay you out, that was it was really too.
Speaker 1: Far, too kind. But the last few weeks for me
Speaker 1: have been pretty busy but really good. I think last
Speaker 1: time we spoke, I was finishing up a clinical part
Speaker 1: of my specialist training and now we're fast forward a year,
Speaker 1: and so I've done that. So it's been a really
Speaker 1: crazy year with all the pandemic and the way that
Speaker 1: that's affected people's mental health. But it's also been a
Speaker 1: really great year because now that I've finished that registrar
Speaker 1: part of my training, I can sort of branch out
Speaker 1: and do a lot of different things. So I'm doing
Speaker 1: some psychiatry works of locom work, we call it sort
Speaker 1: of little private contract work the doctors, and I'm also
Speaker 1: rolling up the sleeves to help the vaccine roll out,
Speaker 1: So I've been doing a vaccine clinic a few days
Speaker 1: a week as well, which has been something different and
Speaker 1: something really important to get behind. And then just my
Speaker 1: usual rambling and trying to get the message out there
Speaker 1: as well. So it's been really, really busy, but really
Speaker 1: good as well, because, just as you said, Sarah, that's
Speaker 1: never a time more that we need to be talking
Speaker 1: about mental health, because I think we're all feeling it
Speaker 1: in some way right now.
Speaker 2: For sure, absolutely, And I think something that has been
Speaker 2: really wonderful. I mean, it was probably starting to happen,
Speaker 2: but that's kind of solidified itself over the past year
Speaker 2: and a bit like maybe eighteen months has been a
Speaker 2: real light being shone on men's mental health in particular,
Speaker 2: and maybe because it's been more acute and the need
Speaker 2: has been greater to sort of talk about it more
Speaker 2: and encourage conversations and really engage in preventive mental health
Speaker 2: for the gender who is not traditionally encouraged to kind
Speaker 2: of show when they're struggling or reach out. Absolutely, and
Speaker 2: you've been a wonderful spokesperson for that, like guiding us
Speaker 2: all through I mean, as soon as the lockdown happens again,
Speaker 2: every announcement, you've just been pumping out really reassuring but
Speaker 2: not too scientific or over complicated information either. That's been
Speaker 2: really really really wonderful.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you mate. But yeah, and I mean that's
Speaker 1: what I love about chats, just like this sort you know,
Speaker 1: getting these messages out there is you know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be overly complicated and psychobably, you know, doing
Speaker 1: it in a relatable kind of fresh way, as I
Speaker 1: think the way we need to go, especially as you say,
Speaker 1: for men or for people who maybe don't connect with
Speaker 1: chats about mental health and psychology and emotions and all
Speaker 1: of those things as readily or easily you know, I
Speaker 1: think making it relatable is key, but yeah, I almost forgot.
Speaker 1: Then I did find a quote because I took all
Speaker 1: that pressure on my back knowing that I needed to
Speaker 1: find the quote because you've been hectic.
Speaker 2: Today, I delegated. I was like, I need to just
Speaker 2: lean on you. I'm just going to delegate this task
Speaker 2: right out to you because I feel like you'll find
Speaker 2: something really intelligent and I'll just come up with some
Speaker 2: babble about calves.
Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, I mean, you brought about ten quotes about
Speaker 1: calves to the table, so I've vetoed those for everyone listening.
Speaker 1: Those were vetos.
Speaker 2: I want to listen to that episode. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1: But the quote that I did come up with, or
Speaker 1: that came actually pretty quickly to mind when you said
Speaker 1: we'd sort of start the chat today with a quote.
Speaker 1: There's one that I'm sure you've heard before, and you
Speaker 1: might even probably have had someone bring up on the
Speaker 1: show before. But it's a quote. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: It's by the Persian poet Roomy, and it's uh, probably
Speaker 1: know what's coming, but it's you are not just a
Speaker 1: drop in the ocean. You're the entire ocean and a drop,
Speaker 1: And I love that quote and I've always found it
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful. But you know, when I was thinking about
Speaker 1: us talking about mental health and this current time and
Speaker 1: Men's Health Week that we've just had last week, that
Speaker 1: one sort of stands out as well, because I think
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a stormy, a stormy old ocean
Speaker 1: going on out there in the world at the moment,
Speaker 1: and it's so easy for all of us to feel
Speaker 1: like we're pretty isolated and alone and you know, sort
Speaker 1: of hemmed and with a lot of anxiety and worry
Speaker 1: right now. So you know that that idea or ethos
Speaker 1: of you know, you're not just the drop, you you're
Speaker 1: the ocean in that drop is I think quite powerful
Speaker 1: when we're thinking about having these discussions, because no matter
Speaker 1: how alone or isolated you feel, you're worth you know,
Speaker 1: your story is worth being heard and you are worth
Speaker 1: reaching out. So that that is a bit psychobably and psychiatrisy.
Speaker 1: But I said, I wasn't going to go there, but
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, in its own way, that's what that
Speaker 1: quote sort of clicked them with quite nicely to me
Speaker 1: this past week.
Speaker 2: I love that so much. I think it really does
Speaker 2: hammer home the fact that one of the biggest barriers
Speaker 2: to any kind of seeking of help for mental health
Speaker 2: or just reaching out is that isolation piece, like feeling
Speaker 2: lonely or feeling like no one else could possibly understand
Speaker 2: what you're going through, and that you know no one
Speaker 2: would understand even if you tried, or they wouldn't know
Speaker 2: what to do. But actually, I think there are so
Speaker 2: many people out there who are who know what to
Speaker 2: say or who know who to help you, how to
Speaker 2: get you to someone who knows what to say.
Speaker 1: And yeah, definitely i'd love to know.
Speaker 2: Like reflecting because this is our anniversary reflecting on Men's
Speaker 2: Mental Health Week last year, either for you personally or
Speaker 2: as a practitioner or just as a general participant in
Speaker 2: this great rollercoaster of what the last sort of years, Yeah,
Speaker 2: compared to this year, are there any like big observations
Speaker 2: changes forwards or backwards, or themes that aren't as strong
Speaker 2: this year that were last year, or anything that you've
Speaker 2: just kind of noticed since we.
Speaker 1: Spoke last Yeah, you know, it's been a really interesting week.
Speaker 1: As you say, it's men's health work is always quite
Speaker 1: a busy week for me, and I love that it
Speaker 1: is but you know, it's a week where lots of
Speaker 1: people are wanting to talk about men's health, and you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's TV or radio or little articles for things,
Speaker 1: and this week, this year, I really felt that, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was almost like there was this real
Speaker 1: need for us to be talking about especially the mental
Speaker 1: side of things for men more. And I think you
Speaker 1: said it before, Sarah, but the almost the strange double
Speaker 1: take silver lining to everything we've all been through in
Speaker 1: the last twelve months is that it's really just outed
Speaker 1: the fact that mental health and mental illness is something
Speaker 1: that unites us, it doesn't separate us. And I think
Speaker 1: of anything this Men's Health Week, it's just been so
Speaker 1: so so bloody amazing for me as a mental health
Speaker 1: doctor to see that mental health health has really been
Speaker 1: an equal kind of partner to physical health, because it's
Speaker 1: not just Men's Health Week, it's it's all health weeks.
Speaker 1: And it goes for women too, I think, but we're
Speaker 1: often so much quicker to just jump on, Okay, let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about prostate cancer, and let's talk about viagra,
Speaker 1: and let's talk about men's sexual health and their fitness
Speaker 1: and you know, all of those big ticket physical things
Speaker 1: that are really really important, but sometimes the mental health
Speaker 1: discussions can feel a little secondary. But for me, this
Speaker 1: past week with Men's Health Week has really just felt
Speaker 1: very strongly that we've kind of bumped mental health up
Speaker 1: to an equal placing on that table and that's exactly
Speaker 1: where it should be. And you know, that's been so
Speaker 1: so so great to see.
Speaker 2: That's so exciting to hear from, particularly from a practitioner's
Speaker 2: point of view, because you have such a greater insight
Speaker 2: into what is actually kind of happening out in society
Speaker 2: or as we're very influenced just by who we're following
Speaker 2: or who we're talking to. But to see that even
Speaker 2: just how often, you know, how regularly you've been consulted
Speaker 2: to contribute to things, and watching your career blossom as well,
Speaker 2: is in itself kind of a sign that these conversations
Speaker 2: are becoming more important and have evolved from almost being
Speaker 2: a little bit sort of tokenistic and like a week
Speaker 2: where we just tick the box of which is not
Speaker 2: a bad thing. I mean, it's better than nothing. It's
Speaker 2: the start of how conversations begin. But it's almost like
Speaker 2: it stopped being just something we think about for one
Speaker 2: week and it started being something that different organizations or
Speaker 2: different spokesperst people or ambassadors are actually bringing up all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And you know, so many other avenues
Speaker 1: and places, and you know, whether it's companies or brands
Speaker 1: or you know, different media platforms. So many places that
Speaker 1: we wouldn't traditionally associate you chatting about men's mental health
Speaker 1: with have sort of been doing amazing work, you know,
Speaker 1: separately from me as well. Obviously, I've seen so many
Speaker 1: people on social media and in the media this past
Speaker 1: week just really pushing that, you know, and so to
Speaker 1: see fitness influences or you know, media platforms that might
Speaker 1: not traditionally talk about some of that nitty gritty difficult stuff.
Speaker 1: To see places like that kind of pushing for for
Speaker 1: health of mind as being equally important as your body.
Speaker 1: That's been so you know, it's been really special to see, actually,
Speaker 1: you know, because I think men's health is that you know,
Speaker 1: and obviously women's health is as well, but you know,
Speaker 1: men's health is so much more than you know, gymming
Speaker 1: and you know, lifestyle stuff and prostate cancer and although
Speaker 1: are the physical things and obviously they all have their place,
Speaker 1: but you know, men and men's health as a whole.
Speaker 1: You know, men are so much more than that. And
Speaker 1: men are you know, the vulnerable side. Men are, you know,
Speaker 1: the panic attacking side. They're the worrying about failure, worrying
Speaker 1: if they stack up against other guys, worrying if they're
Speaker 1: ever gonna you know, nail down a partner or have
Speaker 1: kids one day. You know, all of these things that
Speaker 1: that masculinity has for so long told men they can't
Speaker 1: be or they can't touch. You know, it's really important
Speaker 1: that we acknowledge that that those things are men's health
Speaker 1: as well. And you know, it's this really interesting shift
Speaker 1: happening in the world, I think where for men and women,
Speaker 1: we're sort of sitting up to the fact that our
Speaker 1: health is so much more than sort of what we
Speaker 1: see on the surface and are biased. But you know,
Speaker 1: as a psychiatry doctor, I think that's a that's a
Speaker 1: bloody view orful things. So it's you know, it's been
Speaker 1: actually a really sort of humbling, special sort of week
Speaker 1: to see in the midst of all this COVID chaos,
Speaker 1: some of the messages that we're pushing for men and
Speaker 1: their health right now.
Speaker 2: It is really exciting when you look at the fact
Speaker 2: that you would never wish for this to be why
Speaker 2: it's sort of come to the fore forefront of our attention,
Speaker 2: but that there is really quite a big silver lining
Speaker 2: for mental health in particular, and that there are so
Speaker 2: many areas of dialogue that are traditionally feminine, because perhaps
Speaker 2: we do have more tendencies towards self doubt and comparison
Speaker 2: and over delivering, and our value is tied up in
Speaker 2: being nurturers and all that kind of stuff. But that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's exclusively female. And I don't think men
Speaker 2: have really ever been given permission to say I've got
Speaker 2: comparison itis about my career or my worth or my body,
Speaker 2: like body image in particular, something you spoke to me
Speaker 2: about last year, and that was quite new, Like I
Speaker 2: don't think many men had even started having those conversations.
Speaker 2: So it's really wonderful to see how far in just
Speaker 2: a year we've come.
Speaker 1: One hundred, you know. And I mean, that's what I
Speaker 1: love about chatting with you, mate, and what you do
Speaker 1: here with with your platform and your voice is it's
Speaker 1: it's finding that that little positive needle in a in
Speaker 1: a ship storm of a haystack let's face it, the
Speaker 1: last the last twelve months have been pretty damn tough.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think if there's any silver lining,
Speaker 1: at least from a health perspective, it's it's the fact
Speaker 1: that it's made us really have to confront some of
Speaker 1: these things, you know. And you know what we always
Speaker 1: say in psychiatry, and it's not my quote at all,
Speaker 1: but you know, the the unexamined life, you know, is
Speaker 1: questionably you know that the examined life is the life
Speaker 1: worth living, you know. So I think if it's taken
Speaker 1: something like this to get us all to sit up,
Speaker 1: and especially to get us men to sit up and
Speaker 1: really start acknowledging that these things of your very real
Speaker 1: and they're very important, and that it doesn't make you
Speaker 1: less of a man. It actually makes you more of
Speaker 1: a man to kind of acknowledge that we're struggling and
Speaker 1: to reach out and ask for help. So, no, it's huge,
Speaker 1: and I mean, just as you said there, So, there's
Speaker 1: been a lot of sort of research and things coming
Speaker 1: out lately showing that men really are feeling a lot
Speaker 1: of these things that we traditionally just sort of wouldn't
Speaker 1: think that men would be feeling or worrying about. And
Speaker 1: as you said, the body image struggles and things is
Speaker 1: one that's really skyrocketing for men lately. But also those
Speaker 1: fears about whether we're doing okay and you know, what
Speaker 1: other people think, and all of those things. You know,
Speaker 1: I think they've always been there for men. But masculinity
Speaker 1: and femininity, they have their physiological components. You know, men
Speaker 1: and women are different in certain ways for definite reasons.
Speaker 1: But you know, so much of what masculinity is and
Speaker 1: femininity is is socially constructed. You know that the world
Speaker 1: tells a man what a man is supposed to be,
Speaker 1: and vice versa tells a woman what a woman's supposed
Speaker 1: to be. And you know, I think that can make
Speaker 1: it really difficult if naturally we actually are also underneath
Speaker 1: feeling things that the world tells us we're not supposed
Speaker 1: to feel. And obviously for people who are in between,
Speaker 1: you know, genders, or who might be fluid in their
Speaker 1: gender and things, that brings in a whole other range
Speaker 1: of difficult kind of pushes and pulls there too. So
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to remember that a
Speaker 1: lot of the things we're starting to see men struggle
Speaker 1: with may have been there all along in some form,
Speaker 1: but the fact that we're starting to see them may
Speaker 1: be a sign that we're starting to break through some
Speaker 1: of those traditionally very powerful ways that the world has
Speaker 1: said this is masculine, this is feminine, because actually, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's by logically often not
Speaker 1: what we are and who we are. That's what society
Speaker 1: tells us we are, and we can change that narrative,
Speaker 1: and I think for men's health, we need to be changing.
Speaker 2: That narrative totally. And I think on a broader level,
Speaker 2: that's how societal expectations and norms operate, not just on gender,
Speaker 2: but on career, on like all kinds of things that
Speaker 2: we have in our life, all the boxes that we
Speaker 2: think we need to tick, that we get very influenced
Speaker 2: by what everyone thinks we should be doing rather than
Speaker 2: you know, how we feel. And I think spokespeople like
Speaker 2: you are so important to help normalize breaking down those
Speaker 2: barriers where they're not productive, because sometimes they are, but
Speaker 2: where then you know, where they might stop someone from
Speaker 2: reaching out to get help. And one of the things
Speaker 2: that I wanted to ask you in the Yighborhood Watch section,
Speaker 2: coming at it from quite a different perspective that I
Speaker 2: normally would, where you know, I'm normally looking out there
Speaker 2: for like a community hero story or a community group
Speaker 2: or something, but I'd love to ask you just from
Speaker 2: a I know you can't talk specifics about patient or
Speaker 2: people or conversations, but I think one of the big
Speaker 2: barriers is access, and not access in that psychiatrists and
Speaker 2: psychologists aren't accessible, but more that patients don't actually go
Speaker 2: and seek them, and that's a really big psychological barrier.
Speaker 2: So for people who might be wanting to chat to
Speaker 2: someone like you or even just open the conversation, I
Speaker 2: know that social media has made it a lot easier
Speaker 2: to drop you a DM or kind of say, reach
Speaker 2: out in a less formal way, which obviously can sometimes
Speaker 2: compromise your working hours and like stretch your boundaries, but
Speaker 2: it also means that you've probably connected with a lot
Speaker 2: of people who would never have otherwise consulted a psychiatrist
Speaker 2: just to ask questions about how they feel or what
Speaker 2: the right resources are. So on the whole in the neighborhood,
Speaker 2: are there any questions or themes that have repeatedly come
Speaker 2: up that if someone was listening they might find useful
Speaker 2: to hear what your answer was. Who might have missed
Speaker 2: your DM, who might have missed your stories or the
Speaker 2: places where you've kind of said the same thing a
Speaker 2: couple of times that you know might be useful for
Speaker 2: them as a starting point.
Speaker 1: Oh, such a good question, Yeah, you know, I think,
Speaker 1: and especially if we're again sort of thinking about this
Speaker 1: anniversary and Men's Health Week and things. You know, there
Speaker 1: have really been some big ticket things that have come up,
Speaker 1: and you know, one of the first ones that comes
Speaker 1: to mind is really a lot of you know, girlfriends, wives, mums, sisters,
Speaker 1: friends asking how they can support the man or the
Speaker 1: men in their lives if they're struggling, you know, And
Speaker 1: that's a really powerful thing too, you know, and that
Speaker 1: always really warms me, you know, to know that we're
Speaker 1: looking out for each other that way. You know. Obviously
Speaker 1: we talk about men's health and women's health, but we're
Speaker 1: all in this together and overall it's just health. So
Speaker 1: one of the things that I often get asked is
Speaker 1: how can I make it easier in terms of opening
Speaker 1: up or broaching these conversations, and especially for men, I
Speaker 1: think because of all those sort of traditional things, men
Speaker 1: have been made to feel and the messages we've taken,
Speaker 1: and it can be hard for guys in particular to
Speaker 1: open up about this stuff. So a question I often
Speaker 1: get asked is how do I kind of get in
Speaker 1: their efforts if it's a bit tough in terms of
Speaker 1: getting him to open up or getting him to talk
Speaker 1: about these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, without like let's go get a money petty and
Speaker 2: talk about Nick. Could not enjoy that, couldn't enjoy that. No,
Speaker 2: that's not the right approach for him.
Speaker 1: And for some for some leads it might be. And
Speaker 1: that is more than okay. But yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: obviously there's no rhyme and reason to this. Everyone's going
Speaker 1: to be slightly different. But you know, some interesting research
Speaker 1: has come out about what can make it easier for men,
Speaker 1: you know, And and one of them that I love
Speaker 1: to talk about is this thing called a diffuser, which
Speaker 1: is adding something within or in between the conversation just
Speaker 1: to make it slightly less emotionally confronting and intense. And
Speaker 1: some really fascinating research that shows that for guys in particular,
Speaker 1: this can actually help just ease things a little bit
Speaker 1: to get us to open up and to talk about
Speaker 1: some of these touchy feely kind of difficult things. So
Speaker 1: by a diffuser, I mean there's research that shows raising
Speaker 1: it in the car when you're side by side rather
Speaker 1: than face to face, men often find side by side
Speaker 1: conversations about this mental health emotional tricky stuff easier than
Speaker 1: when it's face to face sometimes, So trying it out
Speaker 1: in the car can be helpful while you're doing the
Speaker 1: dishes together, if your mates or whatever, when you're going
Speaker 1: for a job or a jog sorry, or when you're
Speaker 1: doing a job together. You know, something in between that
Speaker 1: kind of means there's a little element of distraction there.
Speaker 1: You can be using your hands or there's other things
Speaker 1: going on. It can just for some people, women included,
Speaker 1: just take that emotional intensity out of it and that
Speaker 1: can be enough to allow someone to sort of open up.
Speaker 1: So that's a tip I often throw out there or
Speaker 1: give to people if they're saying, how do I open
Speaker 1: up easier if I want to? Or for someone who's
Speaker 1: in the support role who's worried about someone and wanting
Speaker 1: them to open up, you know, that's something that they
Speaker 1: can use as well, just sort of trying and slip
Speaker 1: it in there when there's a bit of a diffuser
Speaker 1: in there too.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting and so practical. I think, like sometimes
Speaker 2: there's a lot of you know, your automatic response if
Speaker 2: you're worried about someone is to go deep dive into
Speaker 2: the research and like try and read all the books
Speaker 2: and understand and listen to the podcasts. But that simple,
Speaker 2: just practical tip could change the whole conversation. And you've
Speaker 2: just scientifically explained the meme about how car conversations like
Speaker 2: car dn ms are low key therapy sessions. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, he's just explained it from a scientific
Speaker 2: point of view. It's because there's a diffuser.
Speaker 1: Science, ma'am science, I've.
Speaker 2: Answered the universe. But it's because like you're not making
Speaker 2: eye contact. That's such, like that's why walking and talking
Speaker 2: is so much easier to open up, because eye contact
Speaker 2: is really confronting, and like, I don't know about you. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to blow delirious areas back out. I'm going
Speaker 2: to blow your mind again, and it's going to be
Speaker 2: really awkward. But I cannot be the only person in
Speaker 2: the world who thinks that when I'm looking at someone
Speaker 2: really close, I start to overthink that I can't look
Speaker 2: at both their eyes at the same time, and then
Speaker 2: I have to look at one or the other, and
Speaker 2: then I think, oh my god, they're going to see
Speaker 2: that I'm not looking at them straight on, that I'm only.
Speaker 1: You're going to be the only person with my left
Speaker 1: just looking at that eye.
Speaker 2: But you know, when you're like like really face to
Speaker 2: face with someone, you can't actually look at both eyes
Speaker 2: at the same time unless you're looking in the middle
Speaker 2: of the nose. And it gets really distracting because then
Speaker 2: of course I overthink it and I'm like, shit, they're
Speaker 2: telling me they're like deepest darker secrets, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: which Irish do I look into to not look cross
Speaker 2: while I'm talking to you. Hell, I would like to
Speaker 2: do a virtual poll right now. Please everyone DM me
Speaker 2: if you have had that exact thought before during a
Speaker 2: serious conversation. But I get like it removes that whole
Speaker 2: intimacy that makes the conversation more intimidating when you're looking
Speaker 2: at someone's facial expression. That makes so much sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, you know, and obviously really connecting with someone,
Speaker 1: being face to face, looking someone in the eye. You know,
Speaker 1: all of that stuff is important in its right place.
Speaker 1: And I think when we're in that space and zone,
Speaker 1: when we're feeling really comfortable and connected, but at least
Speaker 1: to start with some of these conversations, You're absolutely right,
Speaker 1: it can just feel really kind of charged and intense
Speaker 1: and a bit confronting sometimes, I think, And so especially
Speaker 1: for people who might not have have always felt safe
Speaker 1: to raise some of the stuff or to be vulnerable
Speaker 1: or to talk about you know that they had a
Speaker 1: panic attack the other day, didn't tell anyone, or you
Speaker 1: know that they're actually really scared that the business is
Speaker 1: going down the tubes, you know. And for men, I think,
Speaker 1: because again of that societal kind of plaster that society
Speaker 1: has put over men, sometimes I think that can be
Speaker 1: pretty prominent. So just diffusing the situation a little bit,
Speaker 1: and as you say, meming it up with that car,
Speaker 1: with that car therapy session, or the water, the walk
Speaker 1: around the lake, whatever it is. You know, as you say,
Speaker 1: that's not just a meme, there's some actual science in
Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, that's that's a big that's a big
Speaker 1: thing that I rolled out to people when they're asking
Speaker 1: sort of how can I get you know, my mate
Speaker 1: or my partner, or my mom or my dad or
Speaker 1: my son to open up more, you know, trying that
Speaker 1: can help. And you know, I think something else to
Speaker 1: really remember as well, especially if you're the supporter of
Speaker 1: someone who's struggling, is that it's okay to take the
Speaker 1: pressure off. You know, you said before, Sarah. You know,
Speaker 1: often we'll like google search psychiatry and we'll be like
Speaker 1: getting textbooks out and like trying to see what therapy
Speaker 1: technique we can like put under a everyone's start waving
Speaker 1: a clock in front of their face. You know, I
Speaker 1: think taking that pressure off it on both sides is
Speaker 1: important because actually, far and away, the biggest thing that
Speaker 1: helps in these scenarios is when we are just there,
Speaker 1: and if we're the one that needs to talk, the
Speaker 1: biggest benefit comes from just talking and just getting out
Speaker 1: whatever you feel you can, you know, because these things
Speaker 1: can be complicated, hard to explain. It's not easy sometimes
Speaker 1: to sum up how you're feeling and why and what
Speaker 1: it means. But there's often a pressure to think, we
Speaker 1: have to do that, And if you're on the other
Speaker 1: side of the conversation, there can often be this pressure
Speaker 1: should I have to I have to come up with
Speaker 1: some solution or some way to fix it, or help
Speaker 1: them or know something profound to say. But actually the
Speaker 1: biggest benefit from being the supporter is just being a
Speaker 1: bit of a sponge, just being there to listen. So
Speaker 1: I think if we take the pressure and intensity out
Speaker 1: of some of these situations, that actually means we're not
Speaker 1: only open up to each other, but the opening up
Speaker 1: as actually more helpful, you know. So I always say
Speaker 1: to people, whether it's in the hospital or out of
Speaker 1: the hospital, just do it. Like it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be a it doesn't have to be a Ted talk.
Speaker 1: It just has to be whatever comes out, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's thank you for.
Speaker 2: My Ted talk on Virginity versus Yosemite. Thank you, thank.
Speaker 1: You, And you'll know. You'll note, Sarah that that conversation
Speaker 1: happened when we were walkingside, so probably you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: felt safe to do that. If I was like steering
Speaker 1: directly at your left eye.
Speaker 2: Would not have been out. No, I would have been like,
Speaker 2: what's wrong with my iris? Like why is he looking
Speaker 2: at marble? So do I have pink? I did pick
Speaker 2: fut on my pillow? What is happening to me right now?
Speaker 2: Probably he probably did. I love it Also, how I
Speaker 2: was like let's go for a casual catch up. I
Speaker 2: know you're a psychiatrist, so I'm going to offload everything
Speaker 2: that I have onto you right now and pretend that
Speaker 2: it's like a light and easy conversation, floaded just as
Speaker 2: much you or the other thing. I think that's I mean,
Speaker 2: I would love to talk to you about mental health forever.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many things that I think
Speaker 2: are important. But I also I'm conscious that we're both
Speaker 2: well you're not, but I'm losing coherence. So I think
Speaker 2: another thing that is really important in CZA, but in
Speaker 2: life in general, is that when you are as passionate
Speaker 2: as you are about what you do, and access to
Speaker 2: you has become easier for good reason. And I'm sure
Speaker 2: you've had you have many instances in your mind where
Speaker 2: you're so glad that someone was able to reach out
Speaker 2: to you in a way that they couldn't have a
Speaker 2: decade ago or five years ago. I think one of
Speaker 2: the things we talked for most of the lake about
Speaker 2: before UFOs and Calf Club and various named national parks
Speaker 2: in the US, was that we felt guilty that we
Speaker 2: were relieved, like in part relieved about a fourth lockdown,
Speaker 2: having not learned our lessons the first three times. And
Speaker 2: because that's why I talk about platio so much, because
Speaker 2: we do get really consumed in our careers because when
Speaker 2: you love them like, there really is very little incentive
Speaker 2: to kind of slow down before it's too late. And
Speaker 2: so I'd love to ask in this Neighborhood Watch section
Speaker 2: if there's anything you've seen that made you smile out
Speaker 2: in the community that wasn't about mental health, or that
Speaker 2: wasn't work related or a win as a psychiatrist, but
Speaker 2: that was just something you saw that made you happy,
Speaker 2: or that you did that made you happy, or a
Speaker 2: restaurant that you were like, you know, just an experience
Speaker 2: coming out of lockdown that really reminded you why it's
Speaker 2: exciting to be alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, other than.
Speaker 2: Our walk, because I already know that that was really crating.
Speaker 1: That was clearly the highlight of the last six months.
Speaker 1: But apart from.
Speaker 2: That goes without saying I'm already ware, you don't need it,
Speaker 2: you don't need to clarify.
Speaker 1: I feel I'm afraid that the po that the recording
Speaker 1: is going to get cut right now.
Speaker 2: Someone's going to be like, did he say the safe word?
Speaker 2: Is she domestically abusing him like right now, absolutely.
Speaker 1: The safe word is lammy and we didn't use that word.
Speaker 1: So we're fine. We're fine. Something that made me really
Speaker 1: smile lately, you know, I think it was coming out
Speaker 1: of lockdown and I did. I was getting my coffee
Speaker 1: where I would normally get my coffee in the morning
Speaker 1: before clinic and seeing people come in and like just
Speaker 1: the excitement of being able to go in and like
Speaker 1: sit down in the shop again and people saying hello
Speaker 1: to each other and hello to the barrister, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was just it did kind of make me stop
Speaker 1: and you know, have a little internal smile because I
Speaker 1: don't want to be that guy just standing there by
Speaker 1: himself like with a smile of faith.
Speaker 2: We all know you're a creep. We've talked about, Karen.
Speaker 2: We've literally my last text from you is sorry, I
Speaker 2: didn't mean to be as sound as creepy as I was.
Speaker 2: And I was like, it's okay, we all know you're
Speaker 2: a creep. Is fun, so we can move on from that.
Speaker 1: I feel like that needs context, but we're not gonna
Speaker 1: We're not going to pull the She's not.
Speaker 2: A creep, guys, she's the loveliest gentleman in the whole world.
Speaker 2: My love language with Kieren is just paying him out.
Speaker 1: Wow, you really went this.
Speaker 2: I'm just being honest. I mean, I just you know,
Speaker 2: you're like a brother.
Speaker 1: Well exactly, I mean, and how it goes. And standing
Speaker 1: in the corner of a coffee shop smiling to myself
Speaker 1: that the creep kind Yeah, absolutely so so internally smiled.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was just that, you know, just seeing
Speaker 1: people connecting with each other, even in tiny little ways.
Speaker 1: You know, people that don't actually know each other, but
Speaker 1: people that might just get a coffee at the same
Speaker 1: time in the same place each day, or the arista
Speaker 1: and the person that goes in every second day to
Speaker 1: get the coffee. You know, I think this whole pandemic
Speaker 1: life and going into lockdown and out lockdown. You know. Again,
Speaker 1: a silver lining in its own weird way, is that
Speaker 1: it's just shown us how important connection is, even those
Speaker 1: tiny little connections that we probably don't even think of
Speaker 1: as connections. You know, I think when we think connections
Speaker 1: to other humans, we think, you know, our girlfriend, or
Speaker 1: we think our best mate, or we think our parents
Speaker 1: or siblings, but actually all those little other people and
Speaker 1: other little fleeting connections in our day are really really
Speaker 1: important to just living as well, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so that was that was something that made me sort
Speaker 1: of have a little bit of yay in the day
Speaker 1: just to see that coming across as people came out
Speaker 1: of Melbourne's you know, eleven hundredth.
Speaker 2: Lockdown, everyone was just so excited to see each other.
Speaker 2: And I think it's something that you might not notice,
Speaker 2: actually does happen quite often that strangers will smile at
Speaker 2: each other or connect for a second over their dog,
Speaker 2: or you know, something will happen or like someone even
Speaker 2: something as small as someone was driving past a cafe
Speaker 2: that I was sitting at and beeping his horn like
Speaker 2: crazy person, and all of us just laughing together like
Speaker 2: oh my god, what like connecting over that was like
Speaker 2: I haven't just laughed with the stranger in a long time.
Speaker 2: And those little moments are really really lovely where you
Speaker 2: all just know how nice it is to see another
Speaker 2: person laugh and smile at.
Speaker 1: Something that shared humanity kind of yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that we all really miss
Speaker 1: when we're in lockdown and under COVID restrictions, as just
Speaker 1: that connectivity with each other in the world, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a storm, a storm of a
Speaker 1: kind of a social setting at the moment. And I
Speaker 1: think it's what it has done is pull out those
Speaker 1: real fundamental things to just being human that we all
Speaker 1: really miss when they're not there. So totally, there's definitely
Speaker 1: a little creepy smile point for me.
Speaker 2: Something that I really love is that even when like
Speaker 2: sometimes memes hit me so hard in the heart, even
Speaker 2: though they're so stupid, like they are really just sometimes
Speaker 2: so hysterically dumb. But why I love that, I think
Speaker 2: why people love them so much is because they usually
Speaker 2: hit one of those joint humanity, like anywhere in the world,
Speaker 2: everyone understands why that particular thing is funny. And that's
Speaker 2: why I love the Internet, because when you can't connect
Speaker 2: in person, you can all join together about how hysterical
Speaker 2: it is that you know, everyone around the world, like
Speaker 2: every woman in the world has seventy five lip balms
Speaker 2: and hair ties and you can never find them, and
Speaker 2: we all can just bond over that experience, you know,
Speaker 2: just like little small things or no you know, everyone
Speaker 2: has a chair or a couch in their room where
Speaker 2: their laundry lives. For eighty five years after it's cleaned,
Speaker 2: before it gets folded and put away. Like we all
Speaker 2: understand those communal humanity things, and I think it's because
Speaker 2: that's part of just being a human.
Speaker 1: You're so right. I saw one that just you saying
Speaker 1: laundry reminded me of one that popped up on my
Speaker 1: phone the other day, and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: legitimy this week. But it was just a picture of
Speaker 1: someone's washing machine and it was like wet washing in
Speaker 1: the washing machine, and it was like, why do I
Speaker 1: do this every time? Fourth cycle? You know, like you
Speaker 1: just you wash it and then you leave it there
Speaker 1: long enough that you're like, it's going to stink now,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to have to wash it again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I literally got up to about five last week,
Speaker 1: and we all get it.
Speaker 2: We're all like, yes, it gets that weird smell.
Speaker 1: Thank god I'm not alone, or that thing.
Speaker 2: Where like you've made a really nice dinner and then
Speaker 2: you forget to rinse the pan when it's still wet,
Speaker 2: and then everything dries on the bottom and then you
Speaker 2: go to wash it and then you're like it needs
Speaker 2: to soak, but really, you just CBF cleaning it, so
Speaker 2: you should just leave it to soak, But you.
Speaker 1: Feel great about it because you're like, actually, I think
Speaker 1: Mum would back this decision. It needs to so it
Speaker 1: is really dried off.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I am a domestic goddess. I am soaking
Speaker 2: when I know how to get a stain out. I'm like, hmmmm,
Speaker 2: I'm like a grandmother from the sixties. I know about
Speaker 2: baking soda on stains.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well you'll see that I've aptly turned the
Speaker 1: camera just to face a blank wall.
Speaker 2: Because there'd be too much laundry.
Speaker 1: We turned it around right now to show you my
Speaker 1: apartment that whole ven year of this is. A doctor
Speaker 1: who's got a shit together would just fall apart, needs
Speaker 1: a bit of a clean. Let's just say that that's okay.
Speaker 1: Pandemic life absolutely been gentle on ourselves. We're accepting our
Speaker 1: flaws were acceptable.
Speaker 2: We are leaning and we absolutely are leaning in, which
Speaker 2: is also why I think it's important to admit that
Speaker 2: we all, you know, maybe wanted to come out of
Speaker 2: lockdown with a new skill or having read some literature
Speaker 2: or new language, a new language, and really we all
Speaker 2: just came out with a really intimate knowledge of Netflix,
Speaker 2: stand Binge, like everything that we could get our hands on,
Speaker 2: which is why the last section is called recommendations, because
Speaker 2: I think particularly when we aren't you know, we're still
Speaker 2: restricted in movement and we are relying a little bit
Speaker 2: on the internet for human connect and those like hit
Speaker 2: you in the heart kind of things. Even music. I
Speaker 2: noticed I had forgotten to listen to music because I'm
Speaker 2: not driving as much, and I put on a playlist
Speaker 2: the other day and it made me so happy, and
Speaker 2: that made me happy for the rest of the day.
Speaker 2: And I just forgot how much the stimulus you put
Speaker 2: in your brain affects your mood for the rest of
Speaker 2: the day. And so as much as I do love
Speaker 2: making time for serial killer movies because they're really important
Speaker 2: for me, Like this section is where those things that
Speaker 2: you watch and they're just feel good. You can't not
Speaker 2: feel good and happy about being a human. I love
Speaker 2: sharing those because then when you post about it, someone
Speaker 2: from across the world will go, oh, my god, I
Speaker 2: cried in that movie because it was so beautiful, and
Speaker 2: you're like, yes, I understand, humans are beautiful. Have you
Speaker 2: seen was your recommendation? A show, a book, a movie?
Speaker 2: It can be old or anything you've seen lately that
Speaker 2: just made you really happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I did have to think about this a
Speaker 1: little bit because you know, you know, we're slightly similar,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think I said on the last podcast,
Speaker 1: I'm a massive horror movie fan, so I was like,
Speaker 1: probably not gonna fit the recommendation kind of brief if
Speaker 1: from like, watch some guy chase people around with like
Speaker 1: a massive act, I.
Speaker 2: Saw, fifty five is not going to make the list.
Speaker 2: Fifty five was the one, you know, I was like.
Speaker 1: The conjuring or four. Don't know how I can work
Speaker 1: either of those into an inspiring chat about me time,
Speaker 1: But no one that actually I did see recently, and
Speaker 1: I am that. I am that guy who is like, mate,
Speaker 1: did you see that movie? Like it's really good, and
Speaker 1: my friends will all be like, what rock are you under?
Speaker 1: That movie came out like two years ago. Like I
Speaker 1: am that. I'm that person, so two years is not
Speaker 1: not that bad.
Speaker 2: I'm the one who's like, oh, that came out in
Speaker 2: late nineteen eighty five. I'm like, oh, brand new information.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how. I don't think it's that old.
Speaker 1: But I watched the movie on Netflix last week. My
Speaker 1: optopus teacher. I don't know if you've seen that documentary.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, okay, okay, this is so weird.
Speaker 2: I watched this movie yesterday. No, it was my recommendation
Speaker 2: for today. What the actual fuck were you about to say?
Speaker 2: I was actually about to say it. And by like
Speaker 2: bye yesterday, I mean literally call Nick right now. We
Speaker 2: want it yesterday.
Speaker 1: How weird is that?
Speaker 2: That is the weirdest thing in the whole entire world.
Speaker 2: That is so weird.
Speaker 1: And I'm just searching. I'm searching my mind to think
Speaker 1: if us catching up lately, if either of us mentioned
Speaker 1: an octopus at all, but we legit did it?
Speaker 2: Okay, you explained why you love it.
Speaker 1: Okay, you go for it. You.
Speaker 2: This is why I love this podcast so much, because
Speaker 2: even if no one else listens, like, I'm so happy
Speaker 2: right now, that is literally what's happening right now.
Speaker 1: I mean we did just talk about joint humanity and
Speaker 1: human connection, so same.
Speaker 2: This was because of your Semite National Park to aquarium
Speaker 2: to ocean too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't go down there, yeah ye No, Like I
Speaker 1: legitimately I loved it, like i'd heard it was really
Speaker 1: good and had won a bunch of awards and things,
Speaker 1: but never got around to watching it. And yeah, just
Speaker 1: like all of it again, I'll go out on the
Speaker 1: man limb and make myself a bit vulnerable. But like
Speaker 1: it may have been a few little man teas ship
Speaker 1: like when the the pus you know, passed away and
Speaker 1: stuff like. It was. Yeah, it was just a really
Speaker 1: weirdly powerful movie. And I think again what it links
Speaker 1: back to, at least for me, was just that that
Speaker 1: whole thing of connection, like just kind of stopping in
Speaker 1: our day, stopping in our lives to realize that these
Speaker 1: tiny little points of connection that we have to other
Speaker 1: people or to an animal, or to just nature or
Speaker 1: what's around us. Yeah, just like really kind of sucker
Speaker 1: punched me in the gut in terms of our sa
Speaker 1: how awful that is? And it was yeah, really kind
Speaker 1: of surprisingly powerful.
Speaker 2: So oh my god, I love that you said that one.
Speaker 1: Oh so guys, now you go, why did you like it? Well?
Speaker 2: Firstly, I feel like most people listening will probably be like, dude,
Speaker 2: that was like ten years ago, so twenty ten. But
Speaker 2: if you haven't, it is the documentary that won the
Speaker 2: Best Documentary at the Oscars, so is brilliant. Firstly, like
Speaker 2: that shouldn't you shouldn't need if you don't trust Kieran
Speaker 2: and I and my judgment after this conversation, trust the
Speaker 2: oscars because it's amazing. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: I was like, I need to creep, but that's fine.
Speaker 2: And I started this conversation with Virgemity Yosemite, so it's
Speaker 2: I'm not really I like documentaries, but they're not my yay, like,
Speaker 2: I'll watch them with someone else and I'll always appreciate them.
Speaker 2: And there have been some brilliant ones that I've watched,
Speaker 2: but I don't choose them first, and I don't know why,
Speaker 2: but I just I don't know. I saw it and
Speaker 2: I was like, like what, I don't get it, Like
Speaker 2: it just it did not even call out to me
Speaker 2: one bit. And I only chose to watch it because
Speaker 2: Nick had said it's been on my list of pages,
Speaker 2: and I was playing some game on my phone and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, I'm not going to concentrate,
Speaker 2: so I can play my game on my phone and
Speaker 2: watch it. And from the first minute it was literally
Speaker 2: this guy who is a filmmaker and he really burned
Speaker 2: himself out and lost creativity and couldn't work. He couldn't film,
Speaker 2: he had no inspiration to edit, so he started He's
Speaker 2: from South Africa, and he started going into the same
Speaker 2: part of the ocean near where he lives. And one
Speaker 2: day he discovered this female octopus and got really sort
Speaker 2: of intrigued by what made her come out of her
Speaker 2: den and just look at him. And he thought, what
Speaker 2: if I go back the same you know, every day
Speaker 2: and show her that my camera's not foreign. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to you know, I'm not a threat. And over
Speaker 2: like seven to ten days, she started to touch, like her
Speaker 2: little legs and tentacles started to touch. Like there's this
Speaker 2: amazing footage of all the little what are they call
Speaker 2: they called suction things.
Speaker 1: What are they called? I don't know, but like.
Speaker 2: On the screen of the camera, like feeling it out.
Speaker 2: And then she reached out and touched his hand and
Speaker 2: then crawled onto his hand. And over three hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty days, which is pretty much the life span of
Speaker 2: an octopus. The footage is all from ten years ago,
Speaker 2: and then he got the help of two directors to
Speaker 2: then make it into an actual film. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: all his original footage of the octopus under the sea.
Speaker 2: But he was never a wildlife photographer, and he never
Speaker 2: made it for a documentary, so he got someone to
Speaker 2: actually turn it into something ten years later. But the
Speaker 2: footage that he saw of her is like, you start
Speaker 2: to conceive of this mollusk as this super intelligent being
Speaker 2: that recognizes him every day and comes and says hi,
Speaker 2: hugs him on the chest, and then she gets threatened
Speaker 2: by sharks that are in her environment. And at the beginning,
Speaker 2: like he sees her crawl up into this like octopuses
Speaker 2: can actually octopy or whatever you say, can actually make
Speaker 2: themselves like liquid. They can get through the tiniest cracks.
Speaker 2: But she rolled herself up into a ball, changed color,
Speaker 2: and then grabbed all the shells from around her, and like,
Speaker 2: was this weird shell disco ball looking down? I didn't
Speaker 2: know you know that bit And he didn't know what
Speaker 2: it was. And then at the end he realized it
Speaker 2: was camouflage. So she looked like a rock with shells
Speaker 2: on her to hide from the sharks. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's so smart. Yeah, And I'm just like I've never like,
Speaker 2: I love animals, but for some reason, mollusks and like
Speaker 2: anenemies or whatever, they're not They're not like you know,
Speaker 2: cute fluffy mammals, you know, so I've never Yeah they're
Speaker 2: not Paul, right, so I don't. But at the end,
Speaker 2: I was like, I love you.
Speaker 1: So beautiful.
Speaker 2: It's so clever, Like I never thought I could spend
Speaker 2: an hour and a half watching this octopus and this man,
Speaker 2: like have all these revelations about how we're visitors here,
Speaker 2: We're not here to indulge and consume nature, like, we're
Speaker 2: just visiting temporarily, and the nature, like the ocean is
Speaker 2: an organ that's got infinite wisdom, and you're just like
Speaker 2: bawling with like the world is amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. It's pretty bloody special. Hey, and just
Speaker 1: that again for me, I think the most powerful bit
Speaker 1: in it for me in terms of the recommendation you know,
Speaker 1: people from from my side, was just that, you know,
Speaker 1: just that power of that basic just that psychological emotional connection.
Speaker 1: You know, this is an octopus and a human. But
Speaker 1: the way the movie's done, and you know, just as
Speaker 1: you say, the journey you see it going on, it's
Speaker 1: just like this bond kind of formed, and you know,
Speaker 1: it just kind of strips all those other things away,
Speaker 1: you know, all those other things that as modern day humans.
Speaker 1: We get thrown at us on a daily basis in
Speaker 1: terms of what's important and what we need to be
Speaker 1: worrying about and doing with our lives and all these
Speaker 1: things that kind of though again it's between a human
Speaker 1: and an opopusa, just kind of frames that you know,
Speaker 1: actually just being together and connecting and you know, treasuring
Speaker 1: that is what actually matters.
Speaker 2: And totally yeah, I have two others as well that
Speaker 2: are so random, but I've been waiting to do them
Speaker 2: for a couple of weeks and then I've had guests
Speaker 2: and I've forgotten to as recommendations because like I did tonight,
Speaker 2: I was like, we'll be done in half an hour.
Speaker 2: It's been fifty minutes. So I'm so sorry. It's been
Speaker 2: such a lovely chat.
Speaker 1: Trust me, I can go on talking my ramboys for hours,
Speaker 1: you know that.
Speaker 2: So one of them is actually an Instagram page that
Speaker 2: makes me really really happy every time I see it.
Speaker 2: It's Jacob's Food Diaries. I don't know if you've heard
Speaker 2: of it, but it's a mum who makes her son's
Speaker 2: food look like Disney characters, Pixar characters, but like and
Speaker 2: she now she used to just post the static photos
Speaker 2: but now she posts the behind the scenes videos of
Speaker 2: how she made it, and I'm talking Picasso looking creations,
Speaker 2: like I don't.
Speaker 1: Know, out of what vegetables.
Speaker 2: Yeah, vegetables, whatever she can find to make it look realistic.
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't. I can't even explain. Like here,
Speaker 2: let me just show you. Her name is Leila. She's amazing.
Speaker 2: She's got like a quarter of a million followers. But
Speaker 2: for example, she made how do I show you Shrek
Speaker 2: with spaghetti?
Speaker 1: Holy crap? Looks like a.
Speaker 2: Right, it's I'm sure I'll obviously show you guys in
Speaker 2: the show notes, But that's a panda made of rice
Speaker 2: from Kung Fu Panda? Can you see that? What the
Speaker 2: heck isn't it insane? Like when you say she makes
Speaker 2: like peak characters out of food, you think, oh, yeah, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: she like makes a piece of look at the old lady.
Speaker 1: Wow, what's that have made out of potatoes or something?
Speaker 2: Mashed potato? Noodle's purple cabbage goji? Like how does she
Speaker 2: do it? It is so it is so incredible, but like, seriously,
Speaker 2: look at that. That's Terry Crews. That is crazy and
Speaker 2: it's all edible and you can't actually comprehend.
Speaker 1: Too, those little things that are just like, you know,
Speaker 1: just blow your mind. Look at on the cake.
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I don't actually understand. It just makes me
Speaker 2: so happy that someone out there puts the effort in.
Speaker 2: This takes her hours, like someone puts the effort in
Speaker 2: because it brings joy. I just love that. So look
Speaker 2: at Micky and Minnie.
Speaker 1: That is yeah. I mean I struggle to just cook rice.
Speaker 2: The microwave rice for thirty seconds, really struggle.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to soak that plate.
Speaker 2: And the other one is a movie which again is
Speaker 2: really old, but I watched it again the other day
Speaker 2: with my mum and I just was in stitches. It's
Speaker 2: called The Banger Sisters. I don't know if you've seen it.
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a chick flick, but it's one
Speaker 2: of those ones where you just like everyone has met
Speaker 2: each of the characters in their life at some point.
Speaker 2: Goldie Horn is like the So Goldie Horn and Susan
Speaker 2: surround and when they were younger were groupies who were
Speaker 2: with you know, they followed bands around in the sixties
Speaker 2: and seventies and like did a lot of drugs and
Speaker 2: were wild. And then Goldiehorn kind of stays wild, and
Speaker 2: Susan Surrounder gets married to like a banker and it
Speaker 2: becomes all proper, and Goldiehorn goes and Caesar like thirty
Speaker 2: years later, and it's just I kind of explained why
Speaker 2: it's funny, but it's just because we all know one
Speaker 2: of those people, like one of each people. And Goldie
Speaker 2: kind of reminds Susan how much she's suppressed of her
Speaker 2: yay self, and they start to like she's like this
Speaker 2: really proper lady with like a golf course membership and
Speaker 2: like beige suits, and she goes into a wardrobe and
Speaker 2: she's like everything I have is beige, and she has
Speaker 2: like this breakdown and then they get caught by her
Speaker 2: husband's smoking pot going through all their photos of themselves,
Speaker 2: like and her old self comes out. Like it's just
Speaker 2: so hysterical of like a woman finding herself again, and
Speaker 2: it like made me think of Platier like remembering how
Speaker 2: to play. I'm not endorsing smoking weed or joints, but
Speaker 2: it's just so beautiful watching her find life again and
Speaker 2: like she went really beige and she found color again.
Speaker 2: It's just and they're hysterical actress, It's like it's amazing.
Speaker 1: It's a great I can feel that vibe. I can
Speaker 1: pull the psychiatrist's metaphor out of that.
Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like you could. I feel
Speaker 2: like there'd be a lot of psychiatrists going on like
Speaker 2: all that complex.
Speaker 1: There is a you know again, right, it's like you say,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, not to psychiatrist that up
Speaker 1: too much, but yeah, you know that's again. I think
Speaker 1: that's what the pandemic has shown us is that, you know,
Speaker 1: life has some bloody, tough, tough stuff happening each and
Speaker 1: every day to a lot of people, but you know
Speaker 1: those tiny, ordinaryish little pockets of yeah, as you say,
Speaker 1: joy and connection and shared experience and yeah, I absolutely
Speaker 1: love that.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining me legend in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night at like one day's notice.
Speaker 1: Does that make me that guy that doesn't have any
Speaker 1: plans tomorrow?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I can. Yeah, what type?
Speaker 1: What type tonight do you want to do now? Instead?
Speaker 1: I'm free now.
Speaker 2: But I'm that obnoxious person who was like, can you
Speaker 2: do like one hour's time? I literally was like, Karen,
Speaker 2: it's Sunday, it's four pm. Can you do six pm? Sunday?
Speaker 2: Like this Sunday like now in two hours.
Speaker 1: We all know you're raging narcissism.
Speaker 2: Mate, It's fine, absolutely, Ashole, Well, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for brightening up my evening. If no one else is,
Speaker 2: this is such a.
Speaker 1: Joy, been an absolute pleasure. And like you say, I
Speaker 1: mean apologies to everyone that had to sit through some
Speaker 1: of that that rambling and those you didn't awful jokes
Speaker 1: from me. But you know, I think also you know
Speaker 1: your platform and what you're doing on it here, you
Speaker 1: know how much I love it and respect it, and
Speaker 1: you know, to have the chance to come on and
Speaker 1: push you know, the mental health message, the men's health message,
Speaker 1: to combo those up up in some messy, semi coherent way,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's always super super special and humbling.
Speaker 1: So thank you, and you know, I hope, if anything,
Speaker 1: a takeaway from this for anyone listening is that you know,
Speaker 1: whether you're a man or a woman or anyone in between,
Speaker 1: you know wherever you are and whoever you are. You
Speaker 1: know it's okay to be struggling right now, and you're
Speaker 1: not alone if you are. And you know, like we
Speaker 1: said right back at the start, you're not just a drop.
Speaker 1: You're you're the ocean inner drop, so you know you're
Speaker 1: worth reaching out for and talking out for and getting
Speaker 1: help for. So if that's signaling to a quack like
Speaker 1: me that you need a bit of help, that's cool.
Speaker 1: Or if it's signaling to a friend or a parent
Speaker 1: or a partner that you're not doing so well, especially
Speaker 1: if you're a guy, and that's hard, that's that's what
Speaker 1: we need to be doing. So yeah, thanks to you
Speaker 1: for letting me share that my friend, and.
Speaker 2: I'll pop some of Kieran's recommended links in the show
Speaker 2: notes as well for other resources. And there's a lot
Speaker 2: of helplines you can call if you want to go anonymous,
Speaker 2: and lots of resources in places, and I'm sure Kieran
Speaker 2: can share with us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you,