WEBVTT - SUNDAY SPECIAL: The Cure For Burn-Out Is Cooked 0:00:10.661 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:20.502 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, out louders, It's 0:00:20.542 --> 0:00:24.222 me Holly here with your Sunday special drop of out loud. 0:00:24.422 --> 0:00:27.141 This is an episode of Mid that I made in 0:00:27.262 --> 0:00:29.422 Season one of Mid last year. If you haven't listened 0:00:29.422 --> 0:00:30.661 to Med? What have you been doing with your life? 0:00:30.902 --> 0:00:33.501 Conversations for gen X women who are anything? But it 0:00:33.542 --> 0:00:36.101 is with the brilliant Catherine May. When I was making Mid, 0:00:36.142 --> 0:00:37.742 there were a few people I knew I wanted to 0:00:37.781 --> 0:00:40.502 talk to, and one of them was Katherine May because 0:00:40.582 --> 0:00:43.582 one of her books, which is called Wintering, literally changed 0:00:43.622 --> 0:00:45.662 my life. She has also written a book called Enchantment. 0:00:45.742 --> 0:00:49.502 She's a beautiful writer and she has a very interesting 0:00:49.622 --> 0:00:53.422 take on burnout. In this conversation, we dig into what 0:00:53.502 --> 0:00:56.582 burnout really looks like, especially for women in midlife, and 0:00:56.622 --> 0:00:59.422 discuss why a lot of the advice for how to 0:00:59.462 --> 0:01:03.462 not be burnt out anymore has not really been tailored 0:01:03.462 --> 0:01:05.982 to women. Let's just say it tends to involve in 0:01:06.062 --> 0:01:07.942 like get up at four and meditate for an hour 0:01:07.982 --> 0:01:11.782 and like it's just it's ridiculous. It's called the cure 0:01:11.822 --> 0:01:14.301 for burnout is cooked. I really hope you like it, 0:01:14.342 --> 0:01:16.182 and if you do, want to hear more from Catherine 0:01:16.222 --> 0:01:18.742 May and all the other wise women, go subscribe to 0:01:18.822 --> 0:01:24.302 mid For me, the first sign is always reading, as 0:01:24.342 --> 0:01:28.462 in I can't, which is awkward because reading and writing 0:01:28.502 --> 0:01:30.702 and reading and thinking and reading and talking is what 0:01:30.742 --> 0:01:33.822 I do who I am, so when I can't do it, 0:01:34.022 --> 0:01:38.422 I'm cut off from myself. For me, the inability to 0:01:38.422 --> 0:01:41.662 focus on anything longer than a SoundBite is the first 0:01:41.742 --> 0:01:45.702 sign of the disease of our post everything world burnout. 0:01:46.702 --> 0:01:49.662 That might not be the canary in your coal mine Yours. 0:01:49.702 --> 0:01:52.782 Might be sleep that you can't or you can't stop, 0:01:53.182 --> 0:01:56.382 or that, however much you do, you can't seem to recharge, 0:01:56.902 --> 0:01:59.742 or eating that you can't or you can't stop. It 0:01:59.822 --> 0:02:02.422 might be headaches, the eye twitch that keeps showing up, 0:02:02.542 --> 0:02:05.582 a rash, a dizziness that spins you suddenly off balance 0:02:05.582 --> 0:02:08.142 as you step off the bus. It might be your mood, 0:02:08.582 --> 0:02:12.701 a shortness, a low grind of frustration, irritation shifting into 0:02:12.742 --> 0:02:16.222 a fury about how everything just doesn't quite ever so 0:02:16.422 --> 0:02:20.742 slightly work. Is it Perry or the big m yes, probably, 0:02:21.181 --> 0:02:24.341 is it something catastrophic come knocking to up end your life? 0:02:24.822 --> 0:02:31.422 Hopefully not, Hopefully, It's just burnout, just that crushing exhaustion 0:02:31.542 --> 0:02:36.061 and anxious flutter, just that inability to focus, to stop 0:02:36.102 --> 0:02:41.662 the endless sobbing and scrolling and incessant, fritted multitasking, just 0:02:42.022 --> 0:02:44.342 the colds that keep showing up and never really leave, 0:02:44.702 --> 0:02:47.222 and just the gittering stress that keeps you in constant 0:02:47.262 --> 0:02:51.302 motion or glued to your bed. They say burnout is 0:02:51.302 --> 0:02:54.022 the modern disease, and they know what the common cure is, 0:02:54.782 --> 0:03:00.022 slow down, dar But that's easier said, because rest isn't 0:03:00.022 --> 0:03:02.942 real when it's served with the relentless guilt of what 0:03:03.022 --> 0:03:06.102 you should be doing at work, with the pinging and 0:03:06.142 --> 0:03:08.582 the dinging and the sorry to bother you. But at 0:03:08.582 --> 0:03:11.462 home with all the care caring, the actual caring, the 0:03:11.502 --> 0:03:14.662 carrying and wiping and feeding and shopping and cooking, and 0:03:14.702 --> 0:03:18.662 the mental load of caring for anyone, a partner, a parent, 0:03:18.782 --> 0:03:22.662 a host of small people, sick, family, struggling friends, that 0:03:22.822 --> 0:03:26.222 scrolling mental list of what has to happen when, for who? 0:03:26.662 --> 0:03:30.862 How can all that just slow down? I'm asking, of course, 0:03:31.022 --> 0:03:37.062 for a friend. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and this is Mid, 0:03:37.262 --> 0:03:39.782 the show for Generation X women who are anything but 0:03:40.622 --> 0:03:41.422 Today's mid. 0:03:41.502 --> 0:03:44.702 Guest is Catherine May. She's a writer. 0:03:45.262 --> 0:03:48.022 She wrote a book that so many people read during 0:03:48.062 --> 0:03:50.982 those smudgy days of lockdown that it became a massive 0:03:51.142 --> 0:03:56.102 global bestseller and stayed one. It's called Wintering, and she 0:03:56.222 --> 0:03:59.742 wrote it before the word COVID existed. It was all 0:03:59.782 --> 0:04:03.302 about her own experience of understanding a literal need to winter, 0:04:03.742 --> 0:04:07.182 to retreat, and that sometimes a winter can be forced 0:04:07.222 --> 0:04:10.702 on you by circumstance, like an illnes or a recovery, 0:04:11.182 --> 0:04:14.342 and sometimes it's a necessary period of time and rest 0:04:14.422 --> 0:04:17.262 and retreat, of pairing life back to the things that 0:04:17.301 --> 0:04:21.902 sustain us. And it's also about literal winter and embracing 0:04:21.942 --> 0:04:24.702 that special kind of shift it gives us, rather than 0:04:24.741 --> 0:04:27.462 only railing against it, waiting for summer to come back 0:04:27.462 --> 0:04:30.662 with a blast. Wintering is a beautiful book, and I'm 0:04:30.702 --> 0:04:32.981 one of many people who found it nourishing during a 0:04:32.981 --> 0:04:36.261 difficult moment. You'll hear my own professional gush about that 0:04:36.301 --> 0:04:38.581 at the beginning of our conversation, and please forgive me, 0:04:39.301 --> 0:04:42.622 but Catherine May is more than Wintering. Of course, her 0:04:42.621 --> 0:04:45.941 most recent book, Enchantment, is about finding beauty and awe 0:04:45.941 --> 0:04:48.941 in every day. She also has a podcast, A Substack 0:04:49.262 --> 0:04:51.462 is a parent and she lives in England by the Sea, 0:04:51.741 --> 0:04:54.182 which is where she was when I spoke to her 0:04:54.421 --> 0:05:00.941 about burnout. I listened to Wintering actually, because one of 0:05:00.981 --> 0:05:04.421 my signs that things are going a bit lopsided for 0:05:04.541 --> 0:05:05.782 me is similar to one of yours. 0:05:05.821 --> 0:05:07.342 It's that I stopped being able to read. 0:05:07.662 --> 0:05:14.222 Yeah, well, yes, and I had just moved two hours 0:05:14.222 --> 0:05:17.541 out of Sydney to the countryside, started anew much longed 0:05:17.541 --> 0:05:20.222 for but still quite discombobulating change. 0:05:20.421 --> 0:05:23.061 We went into lockdown. I'm sure you hear this story all. 0:05:22.941 --> 0:05:26.981 The time, and I would listen to Wintering as I 0:05:27.022 --> 0:05:31.222 was walking our dog around this strange new place we'd 0:05:31.262 --> 0:05:34.382 moved to, and it was literally winter here in New 0:05:34.381 --> 0:05:37.142 South Wales at that time, and it was just so 0:05:37.462 --> 0:05:38.901 profoundly helpful to me. 0:05:39.101 --> 0:05:39.582 Catherine. 0:05:39.582 --> 0:05:41.981 So I know you must get this a lot, but 0:05:42.061 --> 0:05:46.782 I wanted to thank you for helping me reframe that time. 0:05:47.022 --> 0:05:50.942 Instead of thinking I've moved away from my friends, I'm lonely, 0:05:50.981 --> 0:05:53.701 I'm in this strange place. How do I recombobulate I'm 0:05:53.702 --> 0:05:55.981 not able to go out and do all the things 0:05:56.022 --> 0:06:00.222 i'd normally do. Wintering really helped me see it as 0:06:00.262 --> 0:06:03.782 a period of transition and important restoration. 0:06:03.981 --> 0:06:05.702 So thank you for that. 0:06:06.101 --> 0:06:07.981 Well, that makes me really happy to hear. 0:06:08.142 --> 0:06:12.342 I mean, I wrote it because I wanted to give 0:06:12.381 --> 0:06:14.782 that to people who it's delightful. 0:06:14.821 --> 0:06:15.902 But it's kind of worked. 0:06:17.421 --> 0:06:21.022 It definitely has. I've listened to Enchantment too. I actually 0:06:21.101 --> 0:06:23.621 think your books are wonderful for audiobooks, so thank you 0:06:23.662 --> 0:06:27.782 for that. Anyway, I wanted to talk about burnout because 0:06:27.782 --> 0:06:29.701 I think there is something that a lot of women 0:06:29.741 --> 0:06:32.502 listening to this show will be experiencing or have experienced, 0:06:32.541 --> 0:06:36.702 and in Enchantment, you right, that burnout is what happens 0:06:36.702 --> 0:06:39.301 when you repeatedly ignore your own needs. 0:06:40.222 --> 0:06:41.782 I'd love you to talk to me a little bit 0:06:41.861 --> 0:06:42.261 about that. 0:06:42.902 --> 0:06:45.902 I mean, I don't think it is necessarily a very 0:06:45.941 --> 0:06:49.501 modern phenomenon, but we are beginning to understand it as 0:06:49.541 --> 0:06:53.941 a pattern in the lives of people who are self 0:06:53.941 --> 0:06:58.902 identified as busy, let's say, which you know, is something 0:06:58.941 --> 0:07:00.981 that we have learned to put a lot of stock 0:07:01.022 --> 0:07:03.462 in this idea that we are so busy all the time, 0:07:03.501 --> 0:07:07.061 which means that we are in demand and needed, you know, 0:07:07.101 --> 0:07:09.182 which speaks to an anxiety of ours that we're not 0:07:09.181 --> 0:07:13.302 good in. And what that busyness often does is it 0:07:13.302 --> 0:07:19.461 it urges us to not pay attention to really ordinary 0:07:19.502 --> 0:07:25.261 signs of tiredness and exhaustion and jadedness and unhappiness. 0:07:25.542 --> 0:07:27.382 You know, we squash those down. 0:07:27.182 --> 0:07:30.462 Because the busyness, on one hand tells us that they're 0:07:30.462 --> 0:07:33.422 not important, but it also stops us from feeling them. 0:07:33.702 --> 0:07:36.341 We're in such a rush that we kind of gloss 0:07:36.381 --> 0:07:39.182 over the top. And if you pair that with the 0:07:39.262 --> 0:07:42.302 messaging coming from the outside that that busyness is the 0:07:42.381 --> 0:07:45.902 right way to live what you've got, there is a 0:07:45.982 --> 0:07:51.622 kind of gaslighting of ourselves, which then means that the 0:07:51.702 --> 0:07:55.902 true exhaustion happens well after the time that we can 0:07:56.462 --> 0:07:57.782 really do anything about it. 0:07:58.342 --> 0:07:59.862 And I think that's what burnout is. 0:07:59.902 --> 0:08:05.022 It's this kind of combination of psychological and physical exhaustion 0:08:05.342 --> 0:08:07.862 that it's very hard to crawl back out of. 0:08:07.902 --> 0:08:13.261 In a simple way, about experiencing burnout several times in 0:08:13.342 --> 0:08:17.902 several different ways. And one of your symptoms I've read 0:08:17.902 --> 0:08:22.862 about is similar to mine, the fact that it's the inability. 0:08:22.342 --> 0:08:24.382 To read, which is writers. 0:08:24.422 --> 0:08:29.102 It's very awkward, deeply ashamed of that when it comes. 0:08:30.422 --> 0:08:34.702 And you write about distraction too, about needing and wanting 0:08:34.742 --> 0:08:36.862 to go and sit down and work, but you write 0:08:36.902 --> 0:08:38.622 about how you sit at your desk and instead your 0:08:38.662 --> 0:08:41.222 frinner between Instagram and Twitter and the news and Twitter. 0:08:41.262 --> 0:08:42.862 And we've all been there as well. 0:08:44.422 --> 0:08:48.142 What have you learned about those sort of signs of 0:08:48.222 --> 0:08:51.382 that and what helps to bring you back in terms 0:08:51.462 --> 0:08:54.261 of your focus being so fractured. 0:08:54.862 --> 0:08:57.742 I think over the last few years, I've really learned 0:08:57.982 --> 0:09:02.381 to flip over what I think about those moments when 0:09:02.422 --> 0:09:05.302 my attention is really scattered and all over the place, 0:09:05.382 --> 0:09:08.942 because I used to see that as the cause of 0:09:08.982 --> 0:09:11.142 my suffering, and now I see it as a symptom. 0:09:11.782 --> 0:09:11.942 You know. 0:09:11.982 --> 0:09:14.782 I used to think that, oh, my attention isn't good enough, 0:09:14.822 --> 0:09:18.382 and therefore I'm unable to read, and therefore i'm you know, 0:09:18.702 --> 0:09:20.622 or I'm not getting enough out of life, or I'm 0:09:20.662 --> 0:09:23.902 not working hard enough. But actually what they are is 0:09:23.942 --> 0:09:27.742 often like an early signal that I'm very anxious or 0:09:28.142 --> 0:09:31.862 that I'm very overstretched. And when you start to read 0:09:31.902 --> 0:09:34.422 it like that, you know, that flicking between Twitter and 0:09:34.542 --> 0:09:37.102 Instagram and the news, and you know, all of these 0:09:37.142 --> 0:09:41.702 sources of information, you can begin to see them as 0:09:42.182 --> 0:09:47.382 reaching for safety, reaching for some kind of solid ground 0:09:47.502 --> 0:09:51.182 or something that tells you that everything's okay. And the 0:09:51.222 --> 0:09:54.782 problem with those media is that they're never going to 0:09:54.782 --> 0:09:56.982 tell you everything's okay because they're not set up to 0:09:57.022 --> 0:09:57.302 do that. 0:09:58.502 --> 0:10:01.862 Now, it's not good for their business model to tell 0:10:01.862 --> 0:10:03.062 you that everything's okay. 0:10:03.542 --> 0:10:06.702 It's very good for their business model to keep us 0:10:06.742 --> 0:10:10.982 in this constant state of checking, actually wondering and feeling 0:10:11.942 --> 0:10:16.622 like there's no resolution to anything, and also feeling like 0:10:16.982 --> 0:10:20.062 our response isn't good enough, or getting into conflict over 0:10:20.102 --> 0:10:23.342 those things, and you know, getting into conflicts that are 0:10:23.382 --> 0:10:25.302 really none of our business because they're not about things 0:10:25.382 --> 0:10:28.742 we know anything about. But we're still absorbed in that 0:10:28.822 --> 0:10:33.302 act of conflict anyway. And so we're turning to anxiety 0:10:33.382 --> 0:10:36.622 machines in order to alleviate our anxiety. And it's no 0:10:36.702 --> 0:10:41.582 surprise that we're feeling correctly anxious under the circumstances. 0:10:40.542 --> 0:10:43.422 Absolutely, and that that's not going to work. 0:10:44.742 --> 0:10:46.902 So, with all that busyness, all the balls in the air, 0:10:46.942 --> 0:10:49.662 and our plates elves are flowing, how do we find 0:10:49.702 --> 0:10:52.022 the little bits of awe and rest in fact? 0:10:52.142 --> 0:10:54.382 In the day to day. That's next. 0:10:57.342 --> 0:10:59.782 I think to a point in the culture, we've sort 0:10:59.822 --> 0:11:02.862 of internalized that we do know what the cure for 0:11:02.902 --> 0:11:08.022 this is, which is it's meant to be mindfulness, meditation, exercise, 0:11:08.182 --> 0:11:12.702 diet boundaries. But some of those things are just exceptionally 0:11:12.902 --> 0:11:17.582 hard to implement. And there's a moment in Enchantment where 0:11:17.622 --> 0:11:20.382 you were talking about your meditation process and how you've 0:11:20.862 --> 0:11:22.822 at times drifted away from it, and then suddenly you. 0:11:22.742 --> 0:11:26.502 Were like, maybe a man designed. 0:11:28.382 --> 0:11:32.062 This process of me needing to take these two. 0:11:32.102 --> 0:11:35.742 Like time periods of time for me out of the day. 0:11:36.422 --> 0:11:37.342 Tell me about that. 0:11:37.982 --> 0:11:42.022 Yeah, yeah, I mean I learned to meditate, Oh goodness 0:11:42.102 --> 0:11:45.222 me about twenty years ago now, And it came up 0:11:45.302 --> 0:11:48.062 even then. You know that this man who was teaching 0:11:48.102 --> 0:11:51.502 a group of mainly women to meditate, had these very 0:11:51.622 --> 0:11:53.742 very firm rules about how it is done. You know, 0:11:53.782 --> 0:11:56.782 it must be twenty minutes twice a day, it must 0:11:56.782 --> 0:11:59.382 be before you've eaten in the morning, it. 0:11:59.302 --> 0:12:01.822 Must be every single day. Blah blah blah, on and 0:12:01.822 --> 0:12:02.582 on and on and on. 0:12:03.142 --> 0:12:05.422 And a woman sitting next to me at the time said, 0:12:06.702 --> 0:12:09.942 you know, what does your wife do when you're doing 0:12:09.302 --> 0:12:13.182 you know, who's looking after your children? And his response 0:12:13.782 --> 0:12:17.102 I think told me everything really at the time, which was, oh, 0:12:17.182 --> 0:12:19.342 she is really behind me meditating. 0:12:22.382 --> 0:12:23.342 I bet she is. 0:12:24.142 --> 0:12:26.302 She is. But you know, I. 0:12:26.262 --> 0:12:29.542 Think we do need to start really thinking about the 0:12:29.742 --> 0:12:33.262 solutions we're being offered, particularly the ones that are telling 0:12:33.342 --> 0:12:37.382 us that we don't have enough discipline or that we're 0:12:37.462 --> 0:12:41.302 not making enough time, because actually our sense of being 0:12:41.422 --> 0:12:45.382 overstretched is genuine. It's not some kind of thing that 0:12:45.422 --> 0:12:49.462 we've confected. And if only we organized ourselves more, we'll 0:12:49.542 --> 0:12:52.822 do it better. And I don't think that's ever more 0:12:52.862 --> 0:12:55.142 clear than in the case of people who are caring 0:12:55.222 --> 0:12:57.422 for somebody else, which so many. 0:12:57.142 --> 0:12:57.822 Of us are. 0:12:58.622 --> 0:13:00.702 We don't get to map our days out like that 0:13:00.742 --> 0:13:03.502 because actually our lives are more about responding to the 0:13:03.542 --> 0:13:07.942 needs of somebody else, and that's a good thing, right. 0:13:08.022 --> 0:13:10.622 We need to be able to do that with our society. 0:13:11.222 --> 0:13:12.662 But we also need to be able to have a 0:13:12.702 --> 0:13:16.542 different conversation about what a kind of a life of 0:13:16.622 --> 0:13:20.142 contemplation or a life with a spiritual dimension is, because 0:13:21.542 --> 0:13:24.742 we can't just step away from those roles in order 0:13:24.822 --> 0:13:28.862 to you know, take a two week you know, meditation 0:13:28.982 --> 0:13:33.062 really it just isn't possible. It's not a mindset issue. 0:13:33.582 --> 0:13:37.982 And therefore we need to start to acknowledge the spiritual 0:13:38.022 --> 0:13:40.782 life or the contemplative life, or the reflective life that's 0:13:40.822 --> 0:13:43.222 found in everyday life, because it is there. 0:13:43.382 --> 0:13:45.942 It's just not honored enough in our culture. 0:13:46.182 --> 0:13:49.582 And you right about finding a lot of that in 0:13:49.702 --> 0:13:52.902 nature as many as many of us do, and walking, 0:13:53.902 --> 0:13:58.342 do you have to work to find the awe in 0:13:58.582 --> 0:14:01.102 every day that's going to reset you? Or is there 0:14:01.142 --> 0:14:03.222 like a listen to me, I sound like I'm asking 0:14:03.222 --> 0:14:06.261 you for hacks, like, but is there. 0:14:06.342 --> 0:14:08.782 Which is which is the antithesis of what we're talking about? 0:14:08.822 --> 0:14:09.022 Really? 0:14:09.062 --> 0:14:11.982 But is it almost become a practice in itself to 0:14:12.102 --> 0:14:16.022 learn to find those moments throughout the day in everyday 0:14:16.062 --> 0:14:18.622 life rather than this, Okay, I'm blocking out. 0:14:19.422 --> 0:14:21.222 You know, I've just done school drop off. Now I've 0:14:21.222 --> 0:14:23.102 got twenty minutes you know you? 0:14:23.982 --> 0:14:25.342 Yeah, why are you how. 0:14:25.342 --> 0:14:26.982 I argue you feed it in? 0:14:27.302 --> 0:14:27.662 Yeah? 0:14:27.902 --> 0:14:31.462 I am resistant to hacks and that's really because I 0:14:31.502 --> 0:14:35.262 was always looking for hacks until quite recently in my life, 0:14:35.302 --> 0:14:38.542 you know, and they always left me feeling really beref 0:14:38.662 --> 0:14:40.902 because there is no shortcut to. 0:14:41.982 --> 0:14:44.302 Looking after your engagement over the long term. 0:14:44.342 --> 0:14:46.982 You know, there's no one simple trick that you can 0:14:46.982 --> 0:14:49.382 click through to on the internet that will solve this 0:14:49.582 --> 0:14:53.222 for you forever. In many cases, it's about lowering your 0:14:53.262 --> 0:14:56.782 expectation of what you're going to get from these moments 0:14:57.182 --> 0:15:02.182 and allowing yourself to have many small experiences rather than 0:15:02.222 --> 0:15:09.222 one big, expensive, costly chance for lifetime experience. And it's 0:15:09.222 --> 0:15:13.862 also about something very boring, which is repetition and iteration, right, 0:15:14.182 --> 0:15:18.022 and keeping returning, and as part of that like failing 0:15:18.062 --> 0:15:21.542 all the time too, you know, constantly dropping off that 0:15:21.582 --> 0:15:23.782 wagon because things get busy and you've got a sick 0:15:23.862 --> 0:15:26.142 child at home, or you've got you know, an elderly 0:15:26.222 --> 0:15:30.502 parent who's demanding something for you, going back again to 0:15:31.262 --> 0:15:35.742 getting outside after that, repeat, repeat, repeat, For me, that 0:15:35.902 --> 0:15:38.902 is the very boring piece of advice that we don't 0:15:38.902 --> 0:15:40.982 want to hear, but it is the one that works. 0:15:41.222 --> 0:15:43.302 You know, it's going to it as a human being. 0:15:44.262 --> 0:15:48.662 It's interesting because you also have spoken about how back 0:15:48.702 --> 0:15:51.902 to the point about how busyness is almost a status symbol, 0:15:51.982 --> 0:15:57.742 high status in our society. That rest is crucial, but 0:15:57.902 --> 0:15:59.622 rest is not the same as doing nothing. 0:15:59.782 --> 0:16:01.662 You say, yeah, this was very. 0:16:01.542 --> 0:16:04.622 Pertinent during COVID and people were advised to get over it. 0:16:04.622 --> 0:16:06.222 All those things. You've got a rest and people will 0:16:06.262 --> 0:16:07.662 be like, what's rest? 0:16:07.782 --> 0:16:10.542 Like I'm lying in bed, I'm watching TV on my 0:16:10.582 --> 0:16:12.662 phone in bed, you know, Like it's that kind of thing, 0:16:12.662 --> 0:16:15.142 And what have we learned about that kind of restoration? 0:16:15.262 --> 0:16:15.782 Do you think? 0:16:15.902 --> 0:16:16.142 Yeah? 0:16:16.142 --> 0:16:19.742 Because I see rest as a change in action. I'm 0:16:19.822 --> 0:16:21.862 very bad at the kind of rest that is simply 0:16:21.862 --> 0:16:24.502 sitting still, like I just I've never been able to 0:16:24.502 --> 0:16:28.262 do it, and I still can't. But what I find 0:16:28.302 --> 0:16:32.222 RESTful instead, just to give an example, is to go 0:16:32.262 --> 0:16:35.742 into my kitchen and cook something that's like a very 0:16:35.742 --> 0:16:36.542 long process. 0:16:36.582 --> 0:16:38.662 You know. Like I talk a lot about love. I 0:16:38.662 --> 0:16:39.662 love pickling things. 0:16:39.662 --> 0:16:42.422 It's just this sort of weird fetish that my entire 0:16:42.502 --> 0:16:45.142 family seems to have. But what I love about that 0:16:45.222 --> 0:16:48.622 is it's not hard. It's not challenging, but it is slow. 0:16:49.342 --> 0:16:51.062 So you know, you have to chop everything up and 0:16:51.102 --> 0:16:52.982 you have to wait for the pot to boil, and 0:16:53.182 --> 0:16:56.062 you have to give it some patience. And while my 0:16:56.182 --> 0:17:00.222 hands are moving, my intention can kind of roam around 0:17:00.222 --> 0:17:02.502 a bit, and I can think, I certainly can't have 0:17:02.582 --> 0:17:05.302 my phone in my hand at that point. I mean, 0:17:05.302 --> 0:17:08.302 that's just one example, but I do think we need 0:17:08.341 --> 0:17:12.341 to reconceptualize rest and to take it away from this idea, 0:17:12.462 --> 0:17:15.742 this link with between rest and laziness. You know, rest 0:17:15.821 --> 0:17:19.661 is this essential part of restoring us back to equilibrium, 0:17:19.702 --> 0:17:24.141 and if we skip that step then we probably are 0:17:24.222 --> 0:17:28.181 doing ourselves harm. But equally, if we only see rest 0:17:28.302 --> 0:17:31.302 as sitting watching the TV, I just don't think that's 0:17:31.422 --> 0:17:33.302 very appealing to loads of us. I don't think we 0:17:33.341 --> 0:17:36.381 can rest like that, and it might not even be 0:17:36.502 --> 0:17:39.142 RESTful because it's not really restoring anything in us. 0:17:39.702 --> 0:17:44.821 This explains why I have become a midlife gardener and 0:17:44.901 --> 0:17:47.141 I have a veggi bed, and I get teased a 0:17:47.141 --> 0:17:50.141 lot by all my call journalist pals in the city 0:17:50.422 --> 0:17:53.621 for my gardening. They're like, no, really, Holly, tell us 0:17:53.661 --> 0:17:58.822 more about your zucchinis and your tomatoes. But I've found, 0:17:59.621 --> 0:18:02.221 possibly like you, is that I'm not very good at 0:18:02.222 --> 0:18:05.901 sitting down and doing nothing either, But I feel just 0:18:06.061 --> 0:18:10.101 remarkably reinvigorated after I've spent some time with my hands 0:18:10.101 --> 0:18:12.782 in the soil. It is absolutely owe to me to 0:18:12.861 --> 0:18:16.621 see a seed turn into a seedling turn into a 0:18:16.621 --> 0:18:21.061 front turn into a plant, like that's it's become. I 0:18:21.061 --> 0:18:23.621 don't know, maybe that's sort of my kind of meditation 0:18:23.782 --> 0:18:24.222 in a way. 0:18:24.462 --> 0:18:28.421 Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's it's this process that 0:18:28.462 --> 0:18:31.381 pulls you back. I mean, presumably nearly every day you 0:18:31.422 --> 0:18:33.261 have to. If you're growing veges, you really do have 0:18:33.302 --> 0:18:35.022 to keep checking back in on them, don't you. 0:18:35.101 --> 0:18:37.262 And I'm a really rubbish gardener. 0:18:37.302 --> 0:18:39.461 Actually, I feel like I should be better at it, 0:18:39.502 --> 0:18:41.981 but I think I probably travel too much and I 0:18:42.022 --> 0:18:42.822 neglect everything. 0:18:43.381 --> 0:18:46.262 But I have got that from owning a dog. 0:18:46.581 --> 0:18:49.461 You know, having been a committed cat person all my life, 0:18:49.621 --> 0:18:52.422 we got a dog because we saw this poor put 0:18:52.462 --> 0:18:55.901 that needed rescuing and we couldn't resist. And you know, 0:18:56.101 --> 0:18:58.742 you have to walk her every day, like that's some 0:18:58.982 --> 0:19:02.821 basic contract you make with your dog. And that's that's 0:19:02.821 --> 0:19:05.901 actually brilliant because it made me realize the number of 0:19:05.942 --> 0:19:09.941 times I actually, despite knowing I love walking, would not 0:19:10.022 --> 0:19:12.902 have walked. I'd have let something else take over. I'd 0:19:12.901 --> 0:19:15.101 I said, oh no, I've got to do this this morning. 0:19:15.141 --> 0:19:17.941 I won't do that for myself, but I will always 0:19:17.982 --> 0:19:19.542 do it for the dog. I have to do it 0:19:19.581 --> 0:19:21.302 for the dog. And she gets really fed up with me. 0:19:22.661 --> 0:19:22.941 Yeah. 0:19:23.101 --> 0:19:26.502 Same in our house. It's it's sort of sacred time talking. 0:19:28.022 --> 0:19:30.222 I wanted to ask because your reference there that you're 0:19:30.262 --> 0:19:33.661 traveling a lot, and I think that one of the 0:19:33.702 --> 0:19:38.621 things that people think about burnout and reset and looking 0:19:38.661 --> 0:19:41.462 after yourself is that, well, life goes on and demands 0:19:41.502 --> 0:19:44.461 things of us, and certainly for you. You know, you 0:19:44.542 --> 0:19:46.942 are a best selling author. I'm sure that you are 0:19:47.302 --> 0:19:50.181 invited to do a lot of festivals and tours, and 0:19:51.061 --> 0:19:52.782 you know, it's not like you can just turn off 0:19:52.821 --> 0:19:54.022 and retreat and winter. 0:19:54.341 --> 0:19:55.662 You know, what have you. 0:19:55.661 --> 0:19:59.901 Learnt about how to sort of ride that wave of 0:20:00.782 --> 0:20:03.381 opportunity of doing something you love, which I assume that 0:20:03.422 --> 0:20:06.222 you do, you know, work around your books and your 0:20:06.302 --> 0:20:11.302 podcast and your newsletter and not letting burn out over Well. 0:20:10.661 --> 0:20:14.302 Yeah, I have to actually be quite firm with myself 0:20:14.581 --> 0:20:17.821 and say no to stuff, which is honestly, as an author, 0:20:17.861 --> 0:20:18.581 it's really hard. 0:20:18.621 --> 0:20:22.182 I mean I have been writing since my mid twenties. 0:20:22.222 --> 0:20:25.581 I'm now forty six, she says. 0:20:25.341 --> 0:20:29.702 Counting au frantically. And you know, like. 0:20:29.702 --> 0:20:34.262 I've spent many years with very few opportunities to get 0:20:34.262 --> 0:20:37.901 my work out there, and now I have an abundance 0:20:37.942 --> 0:20:40.382 of it, and I really do have to be very 0:20:40.381 --> 0:20:44.781 selective about what I do, and that means for me 0:20:44.982 --> 0:20:48.302 because my busiest time is over the winter in the UK, 0:20:48.901 --> 0:20:51.141 so not your winter, like you kind of catch me 0:20:51.702 --> 0:20:54.022 at the other end of the seasons. 0:20:54.821 --> 0:20:58.381 But we're just heading into winter. 0:20:58.581 --> 0:20:59.381 Yeah that's right. 0:20:59.542 --> 0:21:02.261 Yeah, and we're just the days are just warming up 0:21:02.302 --> 0:21:04.901 for us finally after a very long time. But you know, 0:21:05.022 --> 0:21:06.821 like I now have a lot of demand on my 0:21:06.861 --> 0:21:09.181 time over winter. Everybody wants to talk to me. Everyone 0:21:09.581 --> 0:21:12.502 suddenly remembers I exist around about late September, and I 0:21:12.542 --> 0:21:12.982 just see the. 0:21:13.022 --> 0:21:14.581 Huge Arctic in my own box. 0:21:15.821 --> 0:21:20.821 And every year I say to my assistant, it's fine, 0:21:20.861 --> 0:21:22.621 it's a few years after the book's release now and 0:21:22.821 --> 0:21:23.902 they won't happen this year. 0:21:23.942 --> 0:21:27.101 It does, So you know, I do all I hand 0:21:27.141 --> 0:21:27.981 during that time. 0:21:28.341 --> 0:21:32.621 But what I won't do is books several days of 0:21:32.861 --> 0:21:35.782