1 00:00:10,661 --> 00:00:13,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:20,502 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, out louders, It's 4 00:00:20,542 --> 00:00:24,222 Speaker 2: me Holly here with your Sunday special drop of out loud. 5 00:00:24,422 --> 00:00:27,141 Speaker 2: This is an episode of Mid that I made in 6 00:00:27,262 --> 00:00:29,422 Speaker 2: Season one of Mid last year. If you haven't listened 7 00:00:29,422 --> 00:00:30,661 Speaker 2: to Med? What have you been doing with your life? 8 00:00:30,902 --> 00:00:33,501 Speaker 2: Conversations for gen X women who are anything? But it 9 00:00:33,542 --> 00:00:36,101 Speaker 2: is with the brilliant Catherine May. When I was making Mid, 10 00:00:36,142 --> 00:00:37,742 Speaker 2: there were a few people I knew I wanted to 11 00:00:37,781 --> 00:00:40,502 Speaker 2: talk to, and one of them was Katherine May because 12 00:00:40,582 --> 00:00:43,582 Speaker 2: one of her books, which is called Wintering, literally changed 13 00:00:43,622 --> 00:00:45,662 Speaker 2: my life. She has also written a book called Enchantment. 14 00:00:45,742 --> 00:00:49,502 Speaker 2: She's a beautiful writer and she has a very interesting 15 00:00:49,622 --> 00:00:53,422 Speaker 2: take on burnout. In this conversation, we dig into what 16 00:00:53,502 --> 00:00:56,582 Speaker 2: burnout really looks like, especially for women in midlife, and 17 00:00:56,622 --> 00:00:59,422 Speaker 2: discuss why a lot of the advice for how to 18 00:00:59,462 --> 00:01:03,462 Speaker 2: not be burnt out anymore has not really been tailored 19 00:01:03,462 --> 00:01:05,982 Speaker 2: to women. Let's just say it tends to involve in 20 00:01:06,062 --> 00:01:07,942 Speaker 2: like get up at four and meditate for an hour 21 00:01:07,982 --> 00:01:11,782 Speaker 2: and like it's just it's ridiculous. It's called the cure 22 00:01:11,822 --> 00:01:14,301 Speaker 2: for burnout is cooked. I really hope you like it, 23 00:01:14,342 --> 00:01:16,182 Speaker 2: and if you do, want to hear more from Catherine 24 00:01:16,222 --> 00:01:18,742 Speaker 2: May and all the other wise women, go subscribe to 25 00:01:18,822 --> 00:01:24,302 Speaker 2: mid For me, the first sign is always reading, as 26 00:01:24,342 --> 00:01:28,462 Speaker 2: in I can't, which is awkward because reading and writing 27 00:01:28,502 --> 00:01:30,702 Speaker 2: and reading and thinking and reading and talking is what 28 00:01:30,742 --> 00:01:33,822 Speaker 2: I do who I am, so when I can't do it, 29 00:01:34,022 --> 00:01:38,422 Speaker 2: I'm cut off from myself. For me, the inability to 30 00:01:38,422 --> 00:01:41,662 Speaker 2: focus on anything longer than a SoundBite is the first 31 00:01:41,742 --> 00:01:45,702 Speaker 2: sign of the disease of our post everything world burnout. 32 00:01:46,702 --> 00:01:49,662 Speaker 2: That might not be the canary in your coal mine Yours. 33 00:01:49,702 --> 00:01:52,782 Speaker 2: Might be sleep that you can't or you can't stop, 34 00:01:53,182 --> 00:01:56,382 Speaker 2: or that, however much you do, you can't seem to recharge, 35 00:01:56,902 --> 00:01:59,742 Speaker 2: or eating that you can't or you can't stop. It 36 00:01:59,822 --> 00:02:02,422 Speaker 2: might be headaches, the eye twitch that keeps showing up, 37 00:02:02,542 --> 00:02:05,582 Speaker 2: a rash, a dizziness that spins you suddenly off balance 38 00:02:05,582 --> 00:02:08,142 Speaker 2: as you step off the bus. It might be your mood, 39 00:02:08,582 --> 00:02:12,701 Speaker 2: a shortness, a low grind of frustration, irritation shifting into 40 00:02:12,742 --> 00:02:16,222 Speaker 2: a fury about how everything just doesn't quite ever so 41 00:02:16,422 --> 00:02:20,742 Speaker 2: slightly work. Is it Perry or the big m yes, probably, 42 00:02:21,181 --> 00:02:24,341 Speaker 2: is it something catastrophic come knocking to up end your life? 43 00:02:24,822 --> 00:02:31,422 Speaker 2: Hopefully not, Hopefully, It's just burnout, just that crushing exhaustion 44 00:02:31,542 --> 00:02:36,061 Speaker 2: and anxious flutter, just that inability to focus, to stop 45 00:02:36,102 --> 00:02:41,662 Speaker 2: the endless sobbing and scrolling and incessant, fritted multitasking, just 46 00:02:42,022 --> 00:02:44,342 Speaker 2: the colds that keep showing up and never really leave, 47 00:02:44,702 --> 00:02:47,222 Speaker 2: and just the gittering stress that keeps you in constant 48 00:02:47,262 --> 00:02:51,302 Speaker 2: motion or glued to your bed. They say burnout is 49 00:02:51,302 --> 00:02:54,022 Speaker 2: the modern disease, and they know what the common cure is, 50 00:02:54,782 --> 00:03:00,022 Speaker 2: slow down, dar But that's easier said, because rest isn't 51 00:03:00,022 --> 00:03:02,942 Speaker 2: real when it's served with the relentless guilt of what 52 00:03:03,022 --> 00:03:06,102 Speaker 2: you should be doing at work, with the pinging and 53 00:03:06,142 --> 00:03:08,582 Speaker 2: the dinging and the sorry to bother you. But at 54 00:03:08,582 --> 00:03:11,462 Speaker 2: home with all the care caring, the actual caring, the 55 00:03:11,502 --> 00:03:14,662 Speaker 2: carrying and wiping and feeding and shopping and cooking, and 56 00:03:14,702 --> 00:03:18,662 Speaker 2: the mental load of caring for anyone, a partner, a parent, 57 00:03:18,782 --> 00:03:22,662 Speaker 2: a host of small people, sick, family, struggling friends, that 58 00:03:22,822 --> 00:03:26,222 Speaker 2: scrolling mental list of what has to happen when, for who? 59 00:03:26,662 --> 00:03:30,862 Speaker 2: How can all that just slow down? I'm asking, of course, 60 00:03:31,022 --> 00:03:37,062 Speaker 2: for a friend. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and this is Mid, 61 00:03:37,262 --> 00:03:39,782 Speaker 2: the show for Generation X women who are anything but 62 00:03:40,622 --> 00:03:41,422 Speaker 2: Today's mid. 63 00:03:41,502 --> 00:03:44,702 Speaker 1: Guest is Catherine May. She's a writer. 64 00:03:45,262 --> 00:03:48,022 Speaker 2: She wrote a book that so many people read during 65 00:03:48,062 --> 00:03:50,982 Speaker 2: those smudgy days of lockdown that it became a massive 66 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:56,102 Speaker 2: global bestseller and stayed one. It's called Wintering, and she 67 00:03:56,222 --> 00:03:59,742 Speaker 2: wrote it before the word COVID existed. It was all 68 00:03:59,782 --> 00:04:03,302 Speaker 2: about her own experience of understanding a literal need to winter, 69 00:04:03,742 --> 00:04:07,182 Speaker 2: to retreat, and that sometimes a winter can be forced 70 00:04:07,222 --> 00:04:10,702 Speaker 2: on you by circumstance, like an illnes or a recovery, 71 00:04:11,182 --> 00:04:14,342 Speaker 2: and sometimes it's a necessary period of time and rest 72 00:04:14,422 --> 00:04:17,262 Speaker 2: and retreat, of pairing life back to the things that 73 00:04:17,301 --> 00:04:21,902 Speaker 2: sustain us. And it's also about literal winter and embracing 74 00:04:21,942 --> 00:04:24,702 Speaker 2: that special kind of shift it gives us, rather than 75 00:04:24,741 --> 00:04:27,462 Speaker 2: only railing against it, waiting for summer to come back 76 00:04:27,462 --> 00:04:30,662 Speaker 2: with a blast. Wintering is a beautiful book, and I'm 77 00:04:30,702 --> 00:04:32,981 Speaker 2: one of many people who found it nourishing during a 78 00:04:32,981 --> 00:04:36,261 Speaker 2: difficult moment. You'll hear my own professional gush about that 79 00:04:36,301 --> 00:04:38,581 Speaker 2: at the beginning of our conversation, and please forgive me, 80 00:04:39,301 --> 00:04:42,622 Speaker 2: but Catherine May is more than Wintering. Of course, her 81 00:04:42,621 --> 00:04:45,941 Speaker 2: most recent book, Enchantment, is about finding beauty and awe 82 00:04:45,941 --> 00:04:48,941 Speaker 2: in every day. She also has a podcast, A Substack 83 00:04:49,262 --> 00:04:51,462 Speaker 2: is a parent and she lives in England by the Sea, 84 00:04:51,741 --> 00:04:54,182 Speaker 2: which is where she was when I spoke to her 85 00:04:54,421 --> 00:05:00,941 Speaker 2: about burnout. I listened to Wintering actually, because one of 86 00:05:00,981 --> 00:05:04,421 Speaker 2: my signs that things are going a bit lopsided for 87 00:05:04,541 --> 00:05:05,782 Speaker 2: me is similar to one of yours. 88 00:05:05,821 --> 00:05:07,342 Speaker 1: It's that I stopped being able to read. 89 00:05:07,662 --> 00:05:14,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yes, and I had just moved two hours 90 00:05:14,222 --> 00:05:17,541 Speaker 2: out of Sydney to the countryside, started anew much longed 91 00:05:17,541 --> 00:05:20,222 Speaker 2: for but still quite discombobulating change. 92 00:05:20,421 --> 00:05:23,061 Speaker 1: We went into lockdown. I'm sure you hear this story all. 93 00:05:22,941 --> 00:05:26,981 Speaker 2: The time, and I would listen to Wintering as I 94 00:05:27,022 --> 00:05:31,222 Speaker 2: was walking our dog around this strange new place we'd 95 00:05:31,262 --> 00:05:34,382 Speaker 2: moved to, and it was literally winter here in New 96 00:05:34,381 --> 00:05:37,142 Speaker 2: South Wales at that time, and it was just so 97 00:05:37,462 --> 00:05:38,901 Speaker 2: profoundly helpful to me. 98 00:05:39,101 --> 00:05:39,582 Speaker 1: Catherine. 99 00:05:39,582 --> 00:05:41,981 Speaker 2: So I know you must get this a lot, but 100 00:05:42,061 --> 00:05:46,782 Speaker 2: I wanted to thank you for helping me reframe that time. 101 00:05:47,022 --> 00:05:50,942 Speaker 2: Instead of thinking I've moved away from my friends, I'm lonely, 102 00:05:50,981 --> 00:05:53,701 Speaker 2: I'm in this strange place. How do I recombobulate I'm 103 00:05:53,702 --> 00:05:55,981 Speaker 2: not able to go out and do all the things 104 00:05:56,022 --> 00:06:00,222 Speaker 2: i'd normally do. Wintering really helped me see it as 105 00:06:00,262 --> 00:06:03,782 Speaker 2: a period of transition and important restoration. 106 00:06:03,981 --> 00:06:05,702 Speaker 1: So thank you for that. 107 00:06:06,101 --> 00:06:07,981 Speaker 3: Well, that makes me really happy to hear. 108 00:06:08,142 --> 00:06:12,342 Speaker 4: I mean, I wrote it because I wanted to give 109 00:06:12,381 --> 00:06:14,782 Speaker 4: that to people who it's delightful. 110 00:06:14,821 --> 00:06:15,902 Speaker 3: But it's kind of worked. 111 00:06:17,421 --> 00:06:21,022 Speaker 2: It definitely has. I've listened to Enchantment too. I actually 112 00:06:21,101 --> 00:06:23,621 Speaker 2: think your books are wonderful for audiobooks, so thank you 113 00:06:23,662 --> 00:06:27,782 Speaker 2: for that. Anyway, I wanted to talk about burnout because 114 00:06:27,782 --> 00:06:29,701 Speaker 2: I think there is something that a lot of women 115 00:06:29,741 --> 00:06:32,502 Speaker 2: listening to this show will be experiencing or have experienced, 116 00:06:32,541 --> 00:06:36,702 Speaker 2: and in Enchantment, you right, that burnout is what happens 117 00:06:36,702 --> 00:06:39,301 Speaker 2: when you repeatedly ignore your own needs. 118 00:06:40,222 --> 00:06:41,782 Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk to me a little bit 119 00:06:41,861 --> 00:06:42,261 Speaker 1: about that. 120 00:06:42,902 --> 00:06:45,902 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think it is necessarily a very 121 00:06:45,941 --> 00:06:49,501 Speaker 4: modern phenomenon, but we are beginning to understand it as 122 00:06:49,541 --> 00:06:53,941 Speaker 4: a pattern in the lives of people who are self 123 00:06:53,941 --> 00:06:58,902 Speaker 4: identified as busy, let's say, which you know, is something 124 00:06:58,941 --> 00:07:00,981 Speaker 4: that we have learned to put a lot of stock 125 00:07:01,022 --> 00:07:03,462 Speaker 4: in this idea that we are so busy all the time, 126 00:07:03,501 --> 00:07:07,061 Speaker 4: which means that we are in demand and needed, you know, 127 00:07:07,101 --> 00:07:09,182 Speaker 4: which speaks to an anxiety of ours that we're not 128 00:07:09,181 --> 00:07:13,302 Speaker 4: good in. And what that busyness often does is it 129 00:07:13,302 --> 00:07:19,461 Speaker 4: it urges us to not pay attention to really ordinary 130 00:07:19,502 --> 00:07:25,261 Speaker 4: signs of tiredness and exhaustion and jadedness and unhappiness. 131 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:27,382 Speaker 3: You know, we squash those down. 132 00:07:27,182 --> 00:07:30,462 Speaker 4: Because the busyness, on one hand tells us that they're 133 00:07:30,462 --> 00:07:33,422 Speaker 4: not important, but it also stops us from feeling them. 134 00:07:33,702 --> 00:07:36,341 Speaker 4: We're in such a rush that we kind of gloss 135 00:07:36,381 --> 00:07:39,182 Speaker 4: over the top. And if you pair that with the 136 00:07:39,262 --> 00:07:42,302 Speaker 4: messaging coming from the outside that that busyness is the 137 00:07:42,381 --> 00:07:45,902 Speaker 4: right way to live what you've got, there is a 138 00:07:45,982 --> 00:07:51,622 Speaker 4: kind of gaslighting of ourselves, which then means that the 139 00:07:51,702 --> 00:07:55,902 Speaker 4: true exhaustion happens well after the time that we can 140 00:07:56,462 --> 00:07:57,782 Speaker 4: really do anything about it. 141 00:07:58,342 --> 00:07:59,862 Speaker 3: And I think that's what burnout is. 142 00:07:59,902 --> 00:08:05,022 Speaker 4: It's this kind of combination of psychological and physical exhaustion 143 00:08:05,342 --> 00:08:07,862 Speaker 4: that it's very hard to crawl back out of. 144 00:08:07,902 --> 00:08:13,261 Speaker 2: In a simple way, about experiencing burnout several times in 145 00:08:13,342 --> 00:08:17,902 Speaker 2: several different ways. And one of your symptoms I've read 146 00:08:17,902 --> 00:08:22,862 Speaker 2: about is similar to mine, the fact that it's the inability. 147 00:08:22,342 --> 00:08:24,382 Speaker 1: To read, which is writers. 148 00:08:24,422 --> 00:08:29,102 Speaker 4: It's very awkward, deeply ashamed of that when it comes. 149 00:08:30,422 --> 00:08:34,702 Speaker 2: And you write about distraction too, about needing and wanting 150 00:08:34,742 --> 00:08:36,862 Speaker 2: to go and sit down and work, but you write 151 00:08:36,902 --> 00:08:38,622 Speaker 2: about how you sit at your desk and instead your 152 00:08:38,662 --> 00:08:41,222 Speaker 2: frinner between Instagram and Twitter and the news and Twitter. 153 00:08:41,262 --> 00:08:42,862 Speaker 1: And we've all been there as well. 154 00:08:44,422 --> 00:08:48,142 Speaker 2: What have you learned about those sort of signs of 155 00:08:48,222 --> 00:08:51,382 Speaker 2: that and what helps to bring you back in terms 156 00:08:51,462 --> 00:08:54,261 Speaker 2: of your focus being so fractured. 157 00:08:54,862 --> 00:08:57,742 Speaker 4: I think over the last few years, I've really learned 158 00:08:57,982 --> 00:09:02,381 Speaker 4: to flip over what I think about those moments when 159 00:09:02,422 --> 00:09:05,302 Speaker 4: my attention is really scattered and all over the place, 160 00:09:05,382 --> 00:09:08,942 Speaker 4: because I used to see that as the cause of 161 00:09:08,982 --> 00:09:11,142 Speaker 4: my suffering, and now I see it as a symptom. 162 00:09:11,782 --> 00:09:11,942 Speaker 3: You know. 163 00:09:11,982 --> 00:09:14,782 Speaker 4: I used to think that, oh, my attention isn't good enough, 164 00:09:14,822 --> 00:09:18,382 Speaker 4: and therefore I'm unable to read, and therefore i'm you know, 165 00:09:18,702 --> 00:09:20,622 Speaker 4: or I'm not getting enough out of life, or I'm 166 00:09:20,662 --> 00:09:23,902 Speaker 4: not working hard enough. But actually what they are is 167 00:09:23,942 --> 00:09:27,742 Speaker 4: often like an early signal that I'm very anxious or 168 00:09:28,142 --> 00:09:31,862 Speaker 4: that I'm very overstretched. And when you start to read 169 00:09:31,902 --> 00:09:34,422 Speaker 4: it like that, you know, that flicking between Twitter and 170 00:09:34,542 --> 00:09:37,102 Speaker 4: Instagram and the news, and you know, all of these 171 00:09:37,142 --> 00:09:41,702 Speaker 4: sources of information, you can begin to see them as 172 00:09:42,182 --> 00:09:47,382 Speaker 4: reaching for safety, reaching for some kind of solid ground 173 00:09:47,502 --> 00:09:51,182 Speaker 4: or something that tells you that everything's okay. And the 174 00:09:51,222 --> 00:09:54,782 Speaker 4: problem with those media is that they're never going to 175 00:09:54,782 --> 00:09:56,982 Speaker 4: tell you everything's okay because they're not set up to 176 00:09:57,022 --> 00:09:57,302 Speaker 4: do that. 177 00:09:58,502 --> 00:10:01,862 Speaker 2: Now, it's not good for their business model to tell 178 00:10:01,862 --> 00:10:03,062 Speaker 2: you that everything's okay. 179 00:10:03,542 --> 00:10:06,702 Speaker 4: It's very good for their business model to keep us 180 00:10:06,742 --> 00:10:10,982 Speaker 4: in this constant state of checking, actually wondering and feeling 181 00:10:11,942 --> 00:10:16,622 Speaker 4: like there's no resolution to anything, and also feeling like 182 00:10:16,982 --> 00:10:20,062 Speaker 4: our response isn't good enough, or getting into conflict over 183 00:10:20,102 --> 00:10:23,342 Speaker 4: those things, and you know, getting into conflicts that are 184 00:10:23,382 --> 00:10:25,302 Speaker 4: really none of our business because they're not about things 185 00:10:25,382 --> 00:10:28,742 Speaker 4: we know anything about. But we're still absorbed in that 186 00:10:28,822 --> 00:10:33,302 Speaker 4: act of conflict anyway. And so we're turning to anxiety 187 00:10:33,382 --> 00:10:36,622 Speaker 4: machines in order to alleviate our anxiety. And it's no 188 00:10:36,702 --> 00:10:41,582 Speaker 4: surprise that we're feeling correctly anxious under the circumstances. 189 00:10:40,542 --> 00:10:43,422 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that that's not going to work. 190 00:10:44,742 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 2: So, with all that busyness, all the balls in the air, 191 00:10:46,942 --> 00:10:49,662 Speaker 2: and our plates elves are flowing, how do we find 192 00:10:49,702 --> 00:10:52,022 Speaker 2: the little bits of awe and rest in fact? 193 00:10:52,142 --> 00:10:54,382 Speaker 1: In the day to day. That's next. 194 00:10:57,342 --> 00:10:59,782 Speaker 2: I think to a point in the culture, we've sort 195 00:10:59,822 --> 00:11:02,862 Speaker 2: of internalized that we do know what the cure for 196 00:11:02,902 --> 00:11:08,022 Speaker 2: this is, which is it's meant to be mindfulness, meditation, exercise, 197 00:11:08,182 --> 00:11:12,702 Speaker 2: diet boundaries. But some of those things are just exceptionally 198 00:11:12,902 --> 00:11:17,582 Speaker 2: hard to implement. And there's a moment in Enchantment where 199 00:11:17,622 --> 00:11:20,382 Speaker 2: you were talking about your meditation process and how you've 200 00:11:20,862 --> 00:11:22,822 Speaker 2: at times drifted away from it, and then suddenly you. 201 00:11:22,742 --> 00:11:26,502 Speaker 1: Were like, maybe a man designed. 202 00:11:28,382 --> 00:11:32,062 Speaker 2: This process of me needing to take these two. 203 00:11:32,102 --> 00:11:35,742 Speaker 1: Like time periods of time for me out of the day. 204 00:11:36,422 --> 00:11:37,342 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 205 00:11:37,982 --> 00:11:42,022 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I learned to meditate, Oh goodness 206 00:11:42,102 --> 00:11:45,222 Speaker 4: me about twenty years ago now, And it came up 207 00:11:45,302 --> 00:11:48,062 Speaker 4: even then. You know that this man who was teaching 208 00:11:48,102 --> 00:11:51,502 Speaker 4: a group of mainly women to meditate, had these very 209 00:11:51,622 --> 00:11:53,742 Speaker 4: very firm rules about how it is done. You know, 210 00:11:53,782 --> 00:11:56,782 Speaker 4: it must be twenty minutes twice a day, it must 211 00:11:56,782 --> 00:11:59,382 Speaker 4: be before you've eaten in the morning, it. 212 00:11:59,302 --> 00:12:01,822 Speaker 3: Must be every single day. Blah blah blah, on and 213 00:12:01,822 --> 00:12:02,582 Speaker 3: on and on and on. 214 00:12:03,142 --> 00:12:05,422 Speaker 4: And a woman sitting next to me at the time said, 215 00:12:06,702 --> 00:12:09,942 Speaker 4: you know, what does your wife do when you're doing 216 00:12:09,302 --> 00:12:13,182 Speaker 4: you know, who's looking after your children? And his response 217 00:12:13,782 --> 00:12:17,102 Speaker 4: I think told me everything really at the time, which was, oh, 218 00:12:17,182 --> 00:12:19,342 Speaker 4: she is really behind me meditating. 219 00:12:22,382 --> 00:12:23,342 Speaker 1: I bet she is. 220 00:12:24,142 --> 00:12:26,302 Speaker 3: She is. But you know, I. 221 00:12:26,262 --> 00:12:29,542 Speaker 4: Think we do need to start really thinking about the 222 00:12:29,742 --> 00:12:33,262 Speaker 4: solutions we're being offered, particularly the ones that are telling 223 00:12:33,342 --> 00:12:37,382 Speaker 4: us that we don't have enough discipline or that we're 224 00:12:37,462 --> 00:12:41,302 Speaker 4: not making enough time, because actually our sense of being 225 00:12:41,422 --> 00:12:45,382 Speaker 4: overstretched is genuine. It's not some kind of thing that 226 00:12:45,422 --> 00:12:49,462 Speaker 4: we've confected. And if only we organized ourselves more, we'll 227 00:12:49,542 --> 00:12:52,822 Speaker 4: do it better. And I don't think that's ever more 228 00:12:52,862 --> 00:12:55,142 Speaker 4: clear than in the case of people who are caring 229 00:12:55,222 --> 00:12:57,422 Speaker 4: for somebody else, which so many. 230 00:12:57,142 --> 00:12:57,822 Speaker 3: Of us are. 231 00:12:58,622 --> 00:13:00,702 Speaker 4: We don't get to map our days out like that 232 00:13:00,742 --> 00:13:03,502 Speaker 4: because actually our lives are more about responding to the 233 00:13:03,542 --> 00:13:07,942 Speaker 4: needs of somebody else, and that's a good thing, right. 234 00:13:08,022 --> 00:13:10,622 Speaker 4: We need to be able to do that with our society. 235 00:13:11,222 --> 00:13:12,662 Speaker 4: But we also need to be able to have a 236 00:13:12,702 --> 00:13:16,542 Speaker 4: different conversation about what a kind of a life of 237 00:13:16,622 --> 00:13:20,142 Speaker 4: contemplation or a life with a spiritual dimension is, because 238 00:13:21,542 --> 00:13:24,742 Speaker 4: we can't just step away from those roles in order 239 00:13:24,822 --> 00:13:28,862 Speaker 4: to you know, take a two week you know, meditation 240 00:13:28,982 --> 00:13:33,062 Speaker 4: really it just isn't possible. It's not a mindset issue. 241 00:13:33,582 --> 00:13:37,982 Speaker 4: And therefore we need to start to acknowledge the spiritual 242 00:13:38,022 --> 00:13:40,782 Speaker 4: life or the contemplative life, or the reflective life that's 243 00:13:40,822 --> 00:13:43,222 Speaker 4: found in everyday life, because it is there. 244 00:13:43,382 --> 00:13:45,942 Speaker 3: It's just not honored enough in our culture. 245 00:13:46,182 --> 00:13:49,582 Speaker 2: And you right about finding a lot of that in 246 00:13:49,702 --> 00:13:52,902 Speaker 2: nature as many as many of us do, and walking, 247 00:13:53,902 --> 00:13:58,342 Speaker 2: do you have to work to find the awe in 248 00:13:58,582 --> 00:14:01,102 Speaker 2: every day that's going to reset you? Or is there 249 00:14:01,142 --> 00:14:03,222 Speaker 2: like a listen to me, I sound like I'm asking 250 00:14:03,222 --> 00:14:06,261 Speaker 2: you for hacks, like, but is there. 251 00:14:06,342 --> 00:14:08,782 Speaker 1: Which is which is the antithesis of what we're talking about? 252 00:14:08,822 --> 00:14:09,022 Speaker 3: Really? 253 00:14:09,062 --> 00:14:11,982 Speaker 2: But is it almost become a practice in itself to 254 00:14:12,102 --> 00:14:16,022 Speaker 2: learn to find those moments throughout the day in everyday 255 00:14:16,062 --> 00:14:18,622 Speaker 2: life rather than this, Okay, I'm blocking out. 256 00:14:19,422 --> 00:14:21,222 Speaker 1: You know, I've just done school drop off. Now I've 257 00:14:21,222 --> 00:14:23,102 Speaker 1: got twenty minutes you know you? 258 00:14:23,982 --> 00:14:25,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, why are you how. 259 00:14:25,342 --> 00:14:26,982 Speaker 1: I argue you feed it in? 260 00:14:27,302 --> 00:14:27,662 Speaker 3: Yeah? 261 00:14:27,902 --> 00:14:31,462 Speaker 4: I am resistant to hacks and that's really because I 262 00:14:31,502 --> 00:14:35,262 Speaker 4: was always looking for hacks until quite recently in my life, 263 00:14:35,302 --> 00:14:38,542 Speaker 4: you know, and they always left me feeling really beref 264 00:14:38,662 --> 00:14:40,902 Speaker 4: because there is no shortcut to. 265 00:14:41,982 --> 00:14:44,302 Speaker 3: Looking after your engagement over the long term. 266 00:14:44,342 --> 00:14:46,982 Speaker 4: You know, there's no one simple trick that you can 267 00:14:46,982 --> 00:14:49,382 Speaker 4: click through to on the internet that will solve this 268 00:14:49,582 --> 00:14:53,222 Speaker 4: for you forever. In many cases, it's about lowering your 269 00:14:53,262 --> 00:14:56,782 Speaker 4: expectation of what you're going to get from these moments 270 00:14:57,182 --> 00:15:02,182 Speaker 4: and allowing yourself to have many small experiences rather than 271 00:15:02,222 --> 00:15:09,222 Speaker 4: one big, expensive, costly chance for lifetime experience. And it's 272 00:15:09,222 --> 00:15:13,862 Speaker 4: also about something very boring, which is repetition and iteration, right, 273 00:15:14,182 --> 00:15:18,022 Speaker 4: and keeping returning, and as part of that like failing 274 00:15:18,062 --> 00:15:21,542 Speaker 4: all the time too, you know, constantly dropping off that 275 00:15:21,582 --> 00:15:23,782 Speaker 4: wagon because things get busy and you've got a sick 276 00:15:23,862 --> 00:15:26,142 Speaker 4: child at home, or you've got you know, an elderly 277 00:15:26,222 --> 00:15:30,502 Speaker 4: parent who's demanding something for you, going back again to 278 00:15:31,262 --> 00:15:35,742 Speaker 4: getting outside after that, repeat, repeat, repeat, For me, that 279 00:15:35,902 --> 00:15:38,902 Speaker 4: is the very boring piece of advice that we don't 280 00:15:38,902 --> 00:15:40,982 Speaker 4: want to hear, but it is the one that works. 281 00:15:41,222 --> 00:15:43,302 Speaker 3: You know, it's going to it as a human being. 282 00:15:44,262 --> 00:15:48,662 Speaker 2: It's interesting because you also have spoken about how back 283 00:15:48,702 --> 00:15:51,902 Speaker 2: to the point about how busyness is almost a status symbol, 284 00:15:51,982 --> 00:15:57,742 Speaker 2: high status in our society. That rest is crucial, but 285 00:15:57,902 --> 00:15:59,622 Speaker 2: rest is not the same as doing nothing. 286 00:15:59,782 --> 00:16:01,662 Speaker 1: You say, yeah, this was very. 287 00:16:01,542 --> 00:16:04,622 Speaker 2: Pertinent during COVID and people were advised to get over it. 288 00:16:04,622 --> 00:16:06,222 Speaker 1: All those things. You've got a rest and people will 289 00:16:06,262 --> 00:16:07,662 Speaker 1: be like, what's rest? 290 00:16:07,782 --> 00:16:10,542 Speaker 2: Like I'm lying in bed, I'm watching TV on my 291 00:16:10,582 --> 00:16:12,662 Speaker 2: phone in bed, you know, Like it's that kind of thing, 292 00:16:12,662 --> 00:16:15,142 Speaker 2: And what have we learned about that kind of restoration? 293 00:16:15,262 --> 00:16:15,782 Speaker 4: Do you think? 294 00:16:15,902 --> 00:16:16,142 Speaker 3: Yeah? 295 00:16:16,142 --> 00:16:19,742 Speaker 4: Because I see rest as a change in action. I'm 296 00:16:19,822 --> 00:16:21,862 Speaker 4: very bad at the kind of rest that is simply 297 00:16:21,862 --> 00:16:24,502 Speaker 4: sitting still, like I just I've never been able to 298 00:16:24,502 --> 00:16:28,262 Speaker 4: do it, and I still can't. But what I find 299 00:16:28,302 --> 00:16:32,222 Speaker 4: RESTful instead, just to give an example, is to go 300 00:16:32,262 --> 00:16:35,742 Speaker 4: into my kitchen and cook something that's like a very 301 00:16:35,742 --> 00:16:36,542 Speaker 4: long process. 302 00:16:36,582 --> 00:16:38,662 Speaker 3: You know. Like I talk a lot about love. I 303 00:16:38,662 --> 00:16:39,662 Speaker 3: love pickling things. 304 00:16:39,662 --> 00:16:42,422 Speaker 4: It's just this sort of weird fetish that my entire 305 00:16:42,502 --> 00:16:45,142 Speaker 4: family seems to have. But what I love about that 306 00:16:45,222 --> 00:16:48,622 Speaker 4: is it's not hard. It's not challenging, but it is slow. 307 00:16:49,342 --> 00:16:51,062 Speaker 4: So you know, you have to chop everything up and 308 00:16:51,102 --> 00:16:52,982 Speaker 4: you have to wait for the pot to boil, and 309 00:16:53,182 --> 00:16:56,062 Speaker 4: you have to give it some patience. And while my 310 00:16:56,182 --> 00:17:00,222 Speaker 4: hands are moving, my intention can kind of roam around 311 00:17:00,222 --> 00:17:02,502 Speaker 4: a bit, and I can think, I certainly can't have 312 00:17:02,582 --> 00:17:05,302 Speaker 4: my phone in my hand at that point. I mean, 313 00:17:05,302 --> 00:17:08,302 Speaker 4: that's just one example, but I do think we need 314 00:17:08,341 --> 00:17:12,341 Speaker 4: to reconceptualize rest and to take it away from this idea, 315 00:17:12,462 --> 00:17:15,742 Speaker 4: this link with between rest and laziness. You know, rest 316 00:17:15,821 --> 00:17:19,661 Speaker 4: is this essential part of restoring us back to equilibrium, 317 00:17:19,702 --> 00:17:24,141 Speaker 4: and if we skip that step then we probably are 318 00:17:24,222 --> 00:17:28,181 Speaker 4: doing ourselves harm. But equally, if we only see rest 319 00:17:28,302 --> 00:17:31,302 Speaker 4: as sitting watching the TV, I just don't think that's 320 00:17:31,422 --> 00:17:33,302 Speaker 4: very appealing to loads of us. I don't think we 321 00:17:33,341 --> 00:17:36,381 Speaker 4: can rest like that, and it might not even be 322 00:17:36,502 --> 00:17:39,142 Speaker 4: RESTful because it's not really restoring anything in us. 323 00:17:39,702 --> 00:17:44,821 Speaker 2: This explains why I have become a midlife gardener and 324 00:17:44,901 --> 00:17:47,141 Speaker 2: I have a veggi bed, and I get teased a 325 00:17:47,141 --> 00:17:50,141 Speaker 2: lot by all my call journalist pals in the city 326 00:17:50,422 --> 00:17:53,621 Speaker 2: for my gardening. They're like, no, really, Holly, tell us 327 00:17:53,661 --> 00:17:58,822 Speaker 2: more about your zucchinis and your tomatoes. But I've found, 328 00:17:59,621 --> 00:18:02,221 Speaker 2: possibly like you, is that I'm not very good at 329 00:18:02,222 --> 00:18:05,901 Speaker 2: sitting down and doing nothing either, But I feel just 330 00:18:06,061 --> 00:18:10,101 Speaker 2: remarkably reinvigorated after I've spent some time with my hands 331 00:18:10,101 --> 00:18:12,782 Speaker 2: in the soil. It is absolutely owe to me to 332 00:18:12,861 --> 00:18:16,621 Speaker 2: see a seed turn into a seedling turn into a 333 00:18:16,621 --> 00:18:21,061 Speaker 2: front turn into a plant, like that's it's become. I 334 00:18:21,061 --> 00:18:23,621 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe that's sort of my kind of meditation 335 00:18:23,782 --> 00:18:24,222 Speaker 2: in a way. 336 00:18:24,462 --> 00:18:28,421 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's it's this process that 337 00:18:28,462 --> 00:18:31,381 Speaker 4: pulls you back. I mean, presumably nearly every day you 338 00:18:31,422 --> 00:18:33,261 Speaker 4: have to. If you're growing veges, you really do have 339 00:18:33,302 --> 00:18:35,022 Speaker 4: to keep checking back in on them, don't you. 340 00:18:35,101 --> 00:18:37,262 Speaker 3: And I'm a really rubbish gardener. 341 00:18:37,302 --> 00:18:39,461 Speaker 4: Actually, I feel like I should be better at it, 342 00:18:39,502 --> 00:18:41,981 Speaker 4: but I think I probably travel too much and I 343 00:18:42,022 --> 00:18:42,822 Speaker 4: neglect everything. 344 00:18:43,381 --> 00:18:46,262 Speaker 3: But I have got that from owning a dog. 345 00:18:46,581 --> 00:18:49,461 Speaker 4: You know, having been a committed cat person all my life, 346 00:18:49,621 --> 00:18:52,422 Speaker 4: we got a dog because we saw this poor put 347 00:18:52,462 --> 00:18:55,901 Speaker 4: that needed rescuing and we couldn't resist. And you know, 348 00:18:56,101 --> 00:18:58,742 Speaker 4: you have to walk her every day, like that's some 349 00:18:58,982 --> 00:19:02,821 Speaker 4: basic contract you make with your dog. And that's that's 350 00:19:02,821 --> 00:19:05,901 Speaker 4: actually brilliant because it made me realize the number of 351 00:19:05,942 --> 00:19:09,941 Speaker 4: times I actually, despite knowing I love walking, would not 352 00:19:10,022 --> 00:19:12,902 Speaker 4: have walked. I'd have let something else take over. I'd 353 00:19:12,901 --> 00:19:15,101 Speaker 4: I said, oh no, I've got to do this this morning. 354 00:19:15,141 --> 00:19:17,941 Speaker 4: I won't do that for myself, but I will always 355 00:19:17,982 --> 00:19:19,542 Speaker 4: do it for the dog. I have to do it 356 00:19:19,581 --> 00:19:21,302 Speaker 4: for the dog. And she gets really fed up with me. 357 00:19:22,661 --> 00:19:22,941 Speaker 3: Yeah. 358 00:19:23,101 --> 00:19:26,502 Speaker 2: Same in our house. It's it's sort of sacred time talking. 359 00:19:28,022 --> 00:19:30,222 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask because your reference there that you're 360 00:19:30,262 --> 00:19:33,661 Speaker 2: traveling a lot, and I think that one of the 361 00:19:33,702 --> 00:19:38,621 Speaker 2: things that people think about burnout and reset and looking 362 00:19:38,661 --> 00:19:41,462 Speaker 2: after yourself is that, well, life goes on and demands 363 00:19:41,502 --> 00:19:44,461 Speaker 2: things of us, and certainly for you. You know, you 364 00:19:44,542 --> 00:19:46,942 Speaker 2: are a best selling author. I'm sure that you are 365 00:19:47,302 --> 00:19:50,181 Speaker 2: invited to do a lot of festivals and tours, and 366 00:19:51,061 --> 00:19:52,782 Speaker 2: you know, it's not like you can just turn off 367 00:19:52,821 --> 00:19:54,022 Speaker 2: and retreat and winter. 368 00:19:54,341 --> 00:19:55,662 Speaker 1: You know, what have you. 369 00:19:55,661 --> 00:19:59,901 Speaker 2: Learnt about how to sort of ride that wave of 370 00:20:00,782 --> 00:20:03,381 Speaker 2: opportunity of doing something you love, which I assume that 371 00:20:03,422 --> 00:20:06,222 Speaker 2: you do, you know, work around your books and your 372 00:20:06,302 --> 00:20:11,302 Speaker 2: podcast and your newsletter and not letting burn out over Well. 373 00:20:10,661 --> 00:20:14,302 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to actually be quite firm with myself 374 00:20:14,581 --> 00:20:17,821 Speaker 4: and say no to stuff, which is honestly, as an author, 375 00:20:17,861 --> 00:20:18,581 Speaker 4: it's really hard. 376 00:20:18,621 --> 00:20:22,182 Speaker 3: I mean I have been writing since my mid twenties. 377 00:20:22,222 --> 00:20:25,581 Speaker 4: I'm now forty six, she says. 378 00:20:25,341 --> 00:20:29,702 Speaker 3: Counting au frantically. And you know, like. 379 00:20:29,702 --> 00:20:34,262 Speaker 4: I've spent many years with very few opportunities to get 380 00:20:34,262 --> 00:20:37,901 Speaker 4: my work out there, and now I have an abundance 381 00:20:37,942 --> 00:20:40,382 Speaker 4: of it, and I really do have to be very 382 00:20:40,381 --> 00:20:44,781 Speaker 4: selective about what I do, and that means for me 383 00:20:44,982 --> 00:20:48,302 Speaker 4: because my busiest time is over the winter in the UK, 384 00:20:48,901 --> 00:20:51,141 Speaker 4: so not your winter, like you kind of catch me 385 00:20:51,702 --> 00:20:54,022 Speaker 4: at the other end of the seasons. 386 00:20:54,821 --> 00:20:58,381 Speaker 1: But we're just heading into winter. 387 00:20:58,581 --> 00:20:59,381 Speaker 3: Yeah that's right. 388 00:20:59,542 --> 00:21:02,261 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're just the days are just warming up 389 00:21:02,302 --> 00:21:04,901 Speaker 4: for us finally after a very long time. But you know, 390 00:21:05,022 --> 00:21:06,821 Speaker 4: like I now have a lot of demand on my 391 00:21:06,861 --> 00:21:09,181 Speaker 4: time over winter. Everybody wants to talk to me. Everyone 392 00:21:09,581 --> 00:21:12,502 Speaker 4: suddenly remembers I exist around about late September, and I 393 00:21:12,542 --> 00:21:12,982 Speaker 4: just see the. 394 00:21:13,022 --> 00:21:14,581 Speaker 3: Huge Arctic in my own box. 395 00:21:15,821 --> 00:21:20,821 Speaker 4: And every year I say to my assistant, it's fine, 396 00:21:20,861 --> 00:21:22,621 Speaker 4: it's a few years after the book's release now and 397 00:21:22,821 --> 00:21:23,902 Speaker 4: they won't happen this year. 398 00:21:23,942 --> 00:21:27,101 Speaker 3: It does, So you know, I do all I hand 399 00:21:27,141 --> 00:21:27,981 Speaker 3: during that time. 400 00:21:28,341 --> 00:21:32,621 Speaker 4: But what I won't do is books several days of 401 00:21:32,861 --> 00:21:35,782 Speaker 4: events back to back. I keep too clear days a 402 00:21:35,821 --> 00:21:38,821 Speaker 4: week in my calendar all year round because I need 403 00:21:38,861 --> 00:21:43,781 Speaker 4: that I can't continually output, and over the summer I 404 00:21:43,821 --> 00:21:46,862 Speaker 4: don't book anything. So July and August, you will not 405 00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:49,701 Speaker 4: get yourself into my calendar unless you make me a 406 00:21:49,901 --> 00:21:53,542 Speaker 4: really tempting offer because I need that break. I need 407 00:21:53,542 --> 00:21:58,422 Speaker 4: that fire break actually, and I think yes, for creative people, 408 00:21:59,182 --> 00:22:01,982 Speaker 4: that's a really important thing to think about, is how 409 00:22:02,141 --> 00:22:05,421 Speaker 4: is the sort of balance between outputting and inputting. The 410 00:22:05,462 --> 00:22:09,982 Speaker 4: temptation is to sort of always output because that seems prettive, 411 00:22:10,061 --> 00:22:13,421 Speaker 4: that seems like visibly productive from the outside. But in 412 00:22:13,542 --> 00:22:17,101 Speaker 4: order to make my work, I need quiet time, I 413 00:22:17,141 --> 00:22:20,542 Speaker 4: need reading, I need thinking, and I need to not 414 00:22:20,782 --> 00:22:23,302 Speaker 4: be hearing stuff from the outside. 415 00:22:23,302 --> 00:22:24,461 Speaker 3: I need to go inwards. 416 00:22:24,942 --> 00:22:27,461 Speaker 4: I've learned to really assert that time doesn't make me 417 00:22:27,502 --> 00:22:28,782 Speaker 4: popular with everyone all the time. 418 00:22:28,861 --> 00:22:29,702 Speaker 3: I say. 419 00:22:31,542 --> 00:22:34,061 Speaker 2: So, if we all understand in theory how important it 420 00:22:34,101 --> 00:22:36,381 Speaker 2: is to rest and recharge, why does it still come 421 00:22:36,502 --> 00:22:38,821 Speaker 2: with a big serve of guilt. How do you stop 422 00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:43,221 Speaker 2: yourself feeling guilty about doing well, nothing or close to nothing. 423 00:22:44,022 --> 00:22:45,502 Speaker 1: That's what we're going to talk about next. 424 00:22:50,422 --> 00:22:52,582 Speaker 2: I think that a lot of women, particularly in middle life, 425 00:22:52,661 --> 00:22:56,821 Speaker 2: feel guilty about not maximizing every moment and squeezing every 426 00:22:56,861 --> 00:22:58,622 Speaker 2: bit of productivity. 427 00:22:58,022 --> 00:22:58,782 Speaker 1: Out of the day. 428 00:22:59,422 --> 00:23:01,821 Speaker 2: So we've talked about rest, but how do you deal 429 00:23:01,901 --> 00:23:04,821 Speaker 2: with the guilt that might come alongside that. What have 430 00:23:04,901 --> 00:23:07,262 Speaker 2: you learned about turning that off? Have you had to 431 00:23:07,262 --> 00:23:08,422 Speaker 2: grapple with that yourself. 432 00:23:09,182 --> 00:23:10,702 Speaker 3: Yeah, grapple with it all the time. 433 00:23:10,742 --> 00:23:12,701 Speaker 4: And you know, the guilt is real and it's not 434 00:23:12,821 --> 00:23:16,901 Speaker 4: easily solved, and there's not much messaging that will ever 435 00:23:17,462 --> 00:23:21,422 Speaker 4: tell you that you shouldn't feel guilty if you're needing 436 00:23:21,462 --> 00:23:26,421 Speaker 4: resources instead of generating resources. What I would say that 437 00:23:26,621 --> 00:23:30,662 Speaker 4: the technique that I've been trying to use for years 438 00:23:30,702 --> 00:23:36,141 Speaker 4: now is to acknowledge that needing other people and to 439 00:23:36,302 --> 00:23:41,262 Speaker 4: keep noticing and to keep trying to accept the need 440 00:23:41,381 --> 00:23:46,901 Speaker 4: to rest in other people, and therefore to then not 441 00:23:46,982 --> 00:23:51,821 Speaker 4: see myself as an exception to that rule. It's not easy, though, 442 00:23:52,101 --> 00:23:55,502 Speaker 4: I mean, I think, you know, we do have this 443 00:23:55,861 --> 00:24:01,101 Speaker 4: desire to be productive and to be generating. The care 444 00:24:01,222 --> 00:24:03,182 Speaker 4: is what puts us at the top of the pile, right, 445 00:24:04,302 --> 00:24:07,141 Speaker 4: It's almost a power move. It's no surprise that we 446 00:24:07,182 --> 00:24:10,581 Speaker 4: feel guilty and mid you know this the conversations that 447 00:24:10,621 --> 00:24:14,701 Speaker 4: we have at a societal level, I think this is structural. 448 00:24:14,742 --> 00:24:18,542 Speaker 4: I don't think this is something for the individual to solve, really, 449 00:24:18,982 --> 00:24:21,861 Speaker 4: But I just hope that the more we talk about 450 00:24:21,861 --> 00:24:24,262 Speaker 4: it collectively, the more we can begin to accept it 451 00:24:24,262 --> 00:24:27,422 Speaker 4: in each other and to create an environment that it's 452 00:24:27,502 --> 00:24:28,342 Speaker 4: much more normal. 453 00:24:29,422 --> 00:24:30,421 Speaker 3: That's all we can really do. 454 00:24:30,462 --> 00:24:33,341 Speaker 2: I think there was another little light bulb for me 455 00:24:34,101 --> 00:24:38,341 Speaker 2: in enchantment was you were talking about during lockdown. But 456 00:24:38,422 --> 00:24:41,061 Speaker 2: I think this is also very relevant to maybe families 457 00:24:41,821 --> 00:24:44,462 Speaker 2: with small children. You were saying that you and your 458 00:24:44,782 --> 00:24:47,661 Speaker 2: partner or spouse had never argued so much, and you 459 00:24:47,742 --> 00:24:51,462 Speaker 2: realized it was because you're in competition for scarce resources, 460 00:24:51,982 --> 00:24:55,141 Speaker 2: the primary of them being time, and that it revealed 461 00:24:55,141 --> 00:25:00,502 Speaker 2: something primal. And that made me realize something about my 462 00:25:00,742 --> 00:25:05,022 Speaker 2: family and many other families I know who are fighting 463 00:25:05,061 --> 00:25:07,901 Speaker 2: about well, if you say yes to that, then I 464 00:25:07,982 --> 00:25:10,662 Speaker 2: can't do this. And if it's this time and that time, 465 00:25:10,702 --> 00:25:12,462 Speaker 2: and if you work in that space, then I can't 466 00:25:12,462 --> 00:25:16,302 Speaker 2: work in that That it is something quite primal. We 467 00:25:16,381 --> 00:25:21,181 Speaker 2: are scrapping over a juicy steak, except it's it is 468 00:25:21,381 --> 00:25:22,421 Speaker 2: literal time. 469 00:25:22,982 --> 00:25:27,101 Speaker 3: Yeah, And actually I would say that we're actually. 470 00:25:26,861 --> 00:25:29,861 Speaker 4: Scrapping over what feels like survival to us, because often 471 00:25:29,901 --> 00:25:33,742 Speaker 4: the ability to do our work is connected in our 472 00:25:33,782 --> 00:25:36,061 Speaker 4: minds to you know, being able to eat, being able 473 00:25:36,101 --> 00:25:40,421 Speaker 4: to keep shelter, and yeah, for me, during the lockdown, 474 00:25:40,581 --> 00:25:42,782 Speaker 4: because I've always worked from home as a writer of 475 00:25:42,901 --> 00:25:44,941 Speaker 4: this Ley The first thing that happened was that my 476 00:25:45,061 --> 00:25:47,461 Speaker 4: husband moved next to me onto my desk to do 477 00:25:47,542 --> 00:25:51,302 Speaker 4: his nine to five job, which I found. 478 00:25:51,061 --> 00:25:52,341 Speaker 3: I'm verb. 479 00:25:53,861 --> 00:25:55,181 Speaker 1: I mean obviously relate. 480 00:25:55,542 --> 00:25:58,101 Speaker 4: God he I remember turning to him once, this is 481 00:25:58,141 --> 00:26:00,581 Speaker 4: not my proudest moment, saying, do you know you grunt 482 00:26:00,621 --> 00:26:01,381 Speaker 4: when you type? 483 00:26:03,661 --> 00:26:06,581 Speaker 2: My partner bangs when he types. It's this unbearable, and 484 00:26:06,621 --> 00:26:07,102 Speaker 2: I was like. 485 00:26:07,422 --> 00:26:10,341 Speaker 1: Could you type more quietly? And he's has ever said 486 00:26:10,381 --> 00:26:11,221 Speaker 1: that to me before. 487 00:26:12,661 --> 00:26:14,302 Speaker 3: I mean, I've never had. 488 00:26:14,182 --> 00:26:16,381 Speaker 1: To share a working space with you before. 489 00:26:16,821 --> 00:26:18,821 Speaker 4: I know, it was awful, and I found that I 490 00:26:18,982 --> 00:26:21,821 Speaker 4: because my work is really different. My work's like a 491 00:26:21,861 --> 00:26:25,341 Speaker 4: lot of staring into space and thinking I couldn't think 492 00:26:25,381 --> 00:26:28,621 Speaker 4: with somebody working next to me and taking phone calls, 493 00:26:28,661 --> 00:26:31,381 Speaker 4: and so that meant that I was the one that 494 00:26:31,422 --> 00:26:34,502 Speaker 4: had to do childcare while he was working. And so 495 00:26:35,061 --> 00:26:37,222 Speaker 4: but the logic of that is that my work then 496 00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:40,542 Speaker 4: happened at these really awful edges of the day, like 497 00:26:41,141 --> 00:26:43,022 Speaker 4: getting up at four point thirty in the morning to 498 00:26:43,061 --> 00:26:46,782 Speaker 4: do some work and then working when he finished at five, 499 00:26:47,821 --> 00:26:50,141 Speaker 4: And I felt like I was living this kind of 500 00:26:50,182 --> 00:26:55,421 Speaker 4: borderline existence and it really it really made me think 501 00:26:55,462 --> 00:27:00,782 Speaker 4: about how there is no equality in these moments. It's 502 00:27:00,861 --> 00:27:04,742 Speaker 4: just you're literally scrambling to do what you can. And 503 00:27:04,821 --> 00:27:07,581 Speaker 4: mine was the work that broke the easiest because I 504 00:27:07,661 --> 00:27:10,982 Speaker 4: didn't have an offer that we're trying to, you know. 505 00:27:10,982 --> 00:27:12,421 Speaker 3: Work simultaneously with me. 506 00:27:13,101 --> 00:27:16,501 Speaker 4: It made me realize how fragile creative work is and 507 00:27:16,542 --> 00:27:19,061 Speaker 4: how we don't, Yes, we find it really hard to 508 00:27:19,061 --> 00:27:21,821 Speaker 4: give it the same value as other kinds of work. 509 00:27:21,982 --> 00:27:24,942 Speaker 2: It's so true, and shove it into these little gaps 510 00:27:25,182 --> 00:27:28,462 Speaker 2: that we can find, which actually isn't conducive to deep 511 00:27:28,542 --> 00:27:33,341 Speaker 2: creative work obviously. So I wanted to ask you just 512 00:27:33,581 --> 00:27:35,661 Speaker 2: to touch back on Wintering for a minute. You wrote 513 00:27:35,661 --> 00:27:40,022 Speaker 2: a lot in that book about the necessity of ritual 514 00:27:40,141 --> 00:27:44,341 Speaker 2: and marking chunks of time and passages that I found 515 00:27:45,141 --> 00:27:48,142 Speaker 2: really interesting because in secular societies we've lost a lot 516 00:27:48,141 --> 00:27:52,061 Speaker 2: of those kind of possible ceremonial moments that are like 517 00:27:52,302 --> 00:27:54,581 Speaker 2: the beginning of a season and the end of the 518 00:27:54,702 --> 00:27:58,861 Speaker 2: Why do you think that that is important to us 519 00:27:58,982 --> 00:28:03,821 Speaker 2: to mark different periods of time in our lives and 520 00:28:03,901 --> 00:28:08,901 Speaker 2: what are some examples of ways that you or we 521 00:28:08,982 --> 00:28:09,502 Speaker 2: could do. 522 00:28:09,422 --> 00:28:13,341 Speaker 4: That well, It's a question that I found so interesting 523 00:28:13,381 --> 00:28:17,581 Speaker 4: that I'm now writing a whole book about I have 524 00:28:17,661 --> 00:28:19,982 Speaker 4: a lot of thoughts, but I think i'd start by 525 00:28:20,022 --> 00:28:23,821 Speaker 4: saying that ritual isn't something that was a big part 526 00:28:23,861 --> 00:28:25,742 Speaker 4: of my life until I wrote Wintering. 527 00:28:25,861 --> 00:28:27,542 Speaker 3: It was something that I felt. 528 00:28:28,101 --> 00:28:30,542 Speaker 4: Very I felt a pulled towards, but I felt very 529 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:32,502 Speaker 4: awkward about that pull, and I didn't know how to 530 00:28:32,581 --> 00:28:36,581 Speaker 4: express it. I have learned to recognize my need for that, 531 00:28:36,861 --> 00:28:41,262 Speaker 4: and I think I think that that's about us coming 532 00:28:41,302 --> 00:28:43,662 Speaker 4: to terms with the nature of time itself in lots 533 00:28:43,661 --> 00:28:45,661 Speaker 4: of ways. I think what our rituals do is they 534 00:28:46,382 --> 00:28:48,902 Speaker 4: they help us to understand the progress of human life. 535 00:28:49,582 --> 00:28:52,262 Speaker 4: They help us to understand the cycles that are moving 536 00:28:52,302 --> 00:28:52,942 Speaker 4: around us. 537 00:28:52,862 --> 00:28:53,462 Speaker 3: All the time. 538 00:28:54,622 --> 00:28:59,542 Speaker 4: And what they're really about is a constant situating of us, 539 00:28:59,542 --> 00:29:03,502 Speaker 4: of ourselves within these bigger movements over which we have 540 00:29:03,622 --> 00:29:07,342 Speaker 4: no control, and so they're like a moment of agency 541 00:29:08,862 --> 00:29:13,382 Speaker 4: set again vast forces that are that we're tiny in 542 00:29:13,422 --> 00:29:18,622 Speaker 4: the context of. And a lot of us don't do 543 00:29:18,782 --> 00:29:22,862 Speaker 4: anything based on ritual or based on kind of pools 544 00:29:22,942 --> 00:29:26,461 Speaker 4: or contemplation or reflection, because the only route we know 545 00:29:26,622 --> 00:29:30,342 Speaker 4: to it is from kind of things like school assemblies. 546 00:29:30,462 --> 00:29:33,222 Speaker 3: You know, and you know maybe. 547 00:29:33,542 --> 00:29:35,342 Speaker 1: Festival, Yeah, that's right. 548 00:29:35,462 --> 00:29:39,342 Speaker 4: Or maybe those people who've walked away from organized religion, 549 00:29:39,742 --> 00:29:43,542 Speaker 4: you know, see that as intrinsic to the thing that 550 00:29:43,582 --> 00:29:46,421 Speaker 4: they walked away from. But I am so interested in 551 00:29:46,462 --> 00:29:50,302 Speaker 4: figuring out how we maintain that ritual life, which I 552 00:29:50,302 --> 00:29:55,462 Speaker 4: think is really fundamental to our humanity, outside of feeling 553 00:29:56,262 --> 00:30:00,342 Speaker 4: like it's about kind of being disciplined or being told 554 00:30:00,382 --> 00:30:01,902 Speaker 4: what to feel and think. 555 00:30:02,022 --> 00:30:04,382 Speaker 1: In the feeling tiny. 556 00:30:04,982 --> 00:30:07,982 Speaker 2: I've heard you say about awe that, and this also 557 00:30:08,062 --> 00:30:09,822 Speaker 2: resonated with me that when you were small and you 558 00:30:09,902 --> 00:30:12,222 Speaker 2: thought about the scale of the universe, but you hated it, 559 00:30:12,302 --> 00:30:14,542 Speaker 2: like it was it's an awful feeling to think of 560 00:30:14,582 --> 00:30:17,421 Speaker 2: how tiny and insignificant you are, and you're like, that 561 00:30:17,542 --> 00:30:19,701 Speaker 2: makes me feel strange. I don't want to think about that, 562 00:30:20,062 --> 00:30:24,461 Speaker 2: But that as you have grown older and wiser perhaps 563 00:30:24,542 --> 00:30:26,822 Speaker 2: or whatever we want to call that, you actually find 564 00:30:26,862 --> 00:30:27,422 Speaker 2: it comforting. 565 00:30:27,661 --> 00:30:28,701 Speaker 1: Why why is that? 566 00:30:29,502 --> 00:30:29,742 Speaker 3: Well? 567 00:30:29,822 --> 00:30:32,582 Speaker 4: I just I remember the first time that somebody told 568 00:30:32,582 --> 00:30:36,622 Speaker 4: me that the universe is probably infinite, that feeling so 569 00:30:36,902 --> 00:30:40,021 Speaker 4: deeply unsettled by that, And I think I'm still thinking 570 00:30:40,062 --> 00:30:43,942 Speaker 4: about what that means now. But actually, as an adult, 571 00:30:44,062 --> 00:30:47,181 Speaker 4: I'm really glad to have that burden lifted off me 572 00:30:47,222 --> 00:30:49,102 Speaker 4: of being the center of the world. I mean, I 573 00:30:50,422 --> 00:30:53,142 Speaker 4: feel far too much like the center of my little 574 00:30:53,342 --> 00:30:56,582 Speaker 4: realm already. I feel like everything is contingent on my 575 00:30:56,702 --> 00:30:59,981 Speaker 4: attention and my action all the time. And to step 576 00:31:00,022 --> 00:31:04,662 Speaker 4: outside of that immediate family situation, that immediate friendship group, 577 00:31:04,702 --> 00:31:09,142 Speaker 4: that immediate work situation, and to realize what a kind 578 00:31:09,142 --> 00:31:13,661 Speaker 4: of my new speck I am in a vast first country, 579 00:31:13,862 --> 00:31:18,142 Speaker 4: you know, vast town alone, a vast universe. And you 580 00:31:18,182 --> 00:31:20,302 Speaker 4: know that for me, that's about the practice of humility, 581 00:31:20,342 --> 00:31:24,181 Speaker 4: which I work on in myself A lot is understanding 582 00:31:24,222 --> 00:31:29,822 Speaker 4: how small I am, understanding how insignificant my needs are 583 00:31:29,862 --> 00:31:34,582 Speaker 4: within this wider context, and therefore learning to kind of 584 00:31:35,182 --> 00:31:39,342 Speaker 4: take action knowing that rather than thinking that I have 585 00:31:39,422 --> 00:31:42,542 Speaker 4: to somehow crook claw my way to the top of 586 00:31:42,582 --> 00:31:46,501 Speaker 4: a pile. It's a relief, honestly, it's a relief. 587 00:31:47,142 --> 00:31:48,181 Speaker 3: Yeah. 588 00:31:48,222 --> 00:31:51,342 Speaker 2: It's interesting too, because in another interview I was doing, 589 00:31:51,942 --> 00:31:55,661 Speaker 2: a woman said to me that she had to, as 590 00:31:55,702 --> 00:31:58,342 Speaker 2: we were talking about earlier, say no to a lot 591 00:31:58,382 --> 00:32:01,462 Speaker 2: of things because her mental health was suffering, step out 592 00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:03,421 Speaker 2: of a lot of the responsibilities she had, and she 593 00:32:03,582 --> 00:32:07,461 Speaker 2: thought that she was so central everything would crumble. But 594 00:32:07,542 --> 00:32:12,222 Speaker 2: actually what she found is people stepped in and supported her, 595 00:32:12,862 --> 00:32:15,542 Speaker 2: and I thought, I think that might be something that 596 00:32:15,542 --> 00:32:19,142 Speaker 2: a lot of women who are caring and working and 597 00:32:19,222 --> 00:32:22,022 Speaker 2: working and caring need to hear a bit, you know, 598 00:32:22,182 --> 00:32:24,982 Speaker 2: that we can step away. 599 00:32:25,182 --> 00:32:26,342 Speaker 3: Absolutely am into that. 600 00:32:26,462 --> 00:32:28,941 Speaker 4: The insight that I have to give people over and 601 00:32:28,982 --> 00:32:33,582 Speaker 4: over again from Wintering is that you know, these things 602 00:32:33,622 --> 00:32:37,582 Speaker 4: are not choices, Like if we don't act on our 603 00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:41,661 Speaker 4: sense of burnout, our sense of dislocation, it will visit 604 00:32:41,782 --> 00:32:45,142 Speaker 4: us anyway. You know, we can't infinitely push these things away, 605 00:32:46,342 --> 00:32:51,382 Speaker 4: and it's actually a great privilege sometimes to let ourselves 606 00:32:51,422 --> 00:32:54,661 Speaker 4: be cared for. It's you know, we need to understand 607 00:32:54,702 --> 00:33:00,102 Speaker 4: that care is a cycle and we can't choose to 608 00:33:00,182 --> 00:33:04,062 Speaker 4: only output care. We must also learn to receive care, 609 00:33:04,862 --> 00:33:09,262 Speaker 4: and when we do receive care from other people, despite 610 00:33:09,302 --> 00:33:11,382 Speaker 4: what we been trained to think that it's a weakness 611 00:33:11,382 --> 00:33:16,262 Speaker 4: and that we're, you know, leeching on society somehow. Most 612 00:33:16,422 --> 00:33:20,302 Speaker 4: people who give care for privilege to give it, and 613 00:33:20,342 --> 00:33:24,102 Speaker 4: we must learn to be generous in being vulnerable enough 614 00:33:24,102 --> 00:33:27,782 Speaker 4: to allow people to care for us sometimes because if 615 00:33:27,822 --> 00:33:30,661 Speaker 4: we don't, if we hold all the caregiving to ourselves. 616 00:33:30,742 --> 00:33:35,222 Speaker 4: We're actually being quite selfish and quite self centered. Your 617 00:33:35,342 --> 00:33:38,382 Speaker 4: children are waiting to care for you, Your parents are wanting 618 00:33:38,422 --> 00:33:41,622 Speaker 4: to care for your friends are wanting to give care. 619 00:33:42,622 --> 00:33:46,862 Speaker 4: The big skill is allowing that in and it's hard, 620 00:33:47,342 --> 00:33:49,102 Speaker 4: but it's important to learn. 621 00:33:52,182 --> 00:33:54,221 Speaker 2: You know. I listened back to that conversation with Catherine 622 00:33:54,262 --> 00:33:56,782 Speaker 2: May and it was like everything slowed down. 623 00:33:57,142 --> 00:33:57,862 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? 624 00:33:58,022 --> 00:34:01,102 Speaker 2: It was like the way I talk, so I ask questions, 625 00:34:01,582 --> 00:34:04,102 Speaker 2: of course, the thoughtful way she answers them. 626 00:34:04,661 --> 00:34:05,462 Speaker 1: Now you know that on me. 627 00:34:05,622 --> 00:34:07,582 Speaker 2: I want us to have a variety of conversations, ones 628 00:34:07,622 --> 00:34:10,422 Speaker 2: that energize, ones that help, ones that and this was 629 00:34:10,462 --> 00:34:13,022 Speaker 2: one of those for me, and I hope for you too. 630 00:34:13,502 --> 00:34:15,582 Speaker 2: I hope you're already sending a message to a frazzled 631 00:34:15,582 --> 00:34:18,821 Speaker 2: friend about letting herself be cared for sometimes, or about 632 00:34:18,862 --> 00:34:21,102 Speaker 2: how it's not her fault that she can't meditate twice 633 00:34:21,142 --> 00:34:23,902 Speaker 2: a day every day in the chaos of her life. 634 00:34:24,382 --> 00:34:27,102 Speaker 2: And I hope you're thinking about what rest means to you. 635 00:34:27,741 --> 00:34:29,782 Speaker 2: And then it looks like a lot of different things, 636 00:34:29,982 --> 00:34:32,942 Speaker 2: but it's not selfish or lazy to want it. I 637 00:34:32,982 --> 00:34:35,702 Speaker 2: hope you feel like I do that. I just sipped 638 00:34:35,741 --> 00:34:40,181 Speaker 2: a warm bowl of something. Next week on MID we're 639 00:34:40,221 --> 00:34:43,221 Speaker 2: bringing you something different again, almost the opposite. 640 00:34:43,221 --> 00:34:44,861 Speaker 1: In fact, Helen. 641 00:34:44,622 --> 00:34:46,901 Speaker 2: Thorn is a comedian who's been through a lot in 642 00:34:46,942 --> 00:34:50,142 Speaker 2: her first few years of being mid betrayal, divorce, loss, 643 00:34:50,462 --> 00:34:53,422 Speaker 2: but we're talking about possibly one of the hardest things 644 00:34:53,422 --> 00:34:57,982 Speaker 2: to talk about in public. We're talking about bodies, deep breaths. 645 00:34:58,622 --> 00:35:02,382 Speaker 2: Come and join us on MID next week. Massive thanks 646 00:35:02,382 --> 00:35:05,622 Speaker 2: to my excellent producer, to Elizabeth As and wherever you're 647 00:35:05,661 --> 00:35:08,462 Speaker 2: listening to MID, go give us a like a reviewer share. 648 00:35:08,622 --> 00:35:10,461 Speaker 1: It means a lot about here next week