Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by the Body Shops
Speaker 1: youth activist series.
Speaker 2: All those moments are just really the want of a
Speaker 2: better term, seizing that opportunity. If there is someone in
Speaker 2: front of you, introduce yourself, the worst they can do
Speaker 2: is look at you and like say no for me.
Speaker 2: The magic source of success in any field actually is
Speaker 2: to be the smartest person in the room, but also
Speaker 2: the kindest person in the room. You know, unless I
Speaker 2: have a boundary, unless I can feel my tank first,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to feel anyone's tank.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore
Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day
Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 1: fanentrepreneurs wapped the suits and heels to co found Macha
Speaker 1: Maiden and Macha milk Bar Cza is a series of
Speaker 1: conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
Speaker 1: self doubt, challenge, joy, and fulfillment along the way. You
Speaker 1: all know. One of the main facets of the Cza
Speaker 1: philosophy is separating what you do from who you are,
Speaker 1: but naturally our conversations still sometimes touch on the doing,
Speaker 1: because work is often inextricably related with finding your overall
Speaker 1: purpose or passion in life. Today's guest, however, has faced
Speaker 1: perhaps more upheaval in relation to the being, not so
Speaker 1: much in finding what you love, but in finding who
Speaker 1: you are. Growing up as a Jehovah's witness to hard
Speaker 1: working immigrant parents in regional Victoria, Denny Tudorovich's environment didn't
Speaker 1: exactly foster the language or conversations that allowed them to
Speaker 1: fully articulate their identity until almost their twenties, But having
Speaker 1: come out not once but twice since then, along with
Speaker 1: all the torment and confusion that accompanies such big shifts
Speaker 1: in identity, Denny is now living their absolute best life
Speaker 1: as a non binary role model, encouraging us all to
Speaker 1: honor who we are, as well as gently and patiently
Speaker 1: helping us learn more about the language and landscape of
Speaker 1: gender identity and sexuality. For someone who began their life
Speaker 1: feeling like they didn't have the language to express what
Speaker 1: they really felt, Denny is now one of the most
Speaker 1: eloquent and articulate guests I've had the pleasure of speaking with,
Speaker 1: sharing so openly about even the most awkward elements of
Speaker 1: gender fluidity, i e. We learn how they pick which
Speaker 1: bathrooms to use sexuality aside. Denny has also had an
Speaker 1: incredible path Yay, working their way from a shit kicking
Speaker 1: intern all the way up to fashion editor at Cosmopolitan
Speaker 1: Magazine right up until its closure in twenty eighteen. Their
Speaker 1: insights are equally as powerful in dealing with the unexpected
Speaker 1: loss of dreams, embracing a giant pivot to move back
Speaker 1: to Geelong and embrace the freelance world wholeheartedly, including becoming
Speaker 1: the face of the Body Shop's incredible self Love campaign,
Speaker 1: a company you know I adore. Working with their energy
Speaker 1: and passion for equality and kindness is so infectious and energizing,
Speaker 1: and the gold sparkles I turned up to recording barely
Speaker 1: do Denny justice. I hope that Denny brings your heart
Speaker 1: the warmth that mine was filled with the whole way through.
Speaker 1: Danny Todorovich, welcome to Seize the AA.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor
Speaker 3: to be here.
Speaker 1: I am so excited. I was literally just saying before
Speaker 1: we started recording that we have been at Pufftuff together before.
Speaker 1: We didn't meet properly, but we're best internet friends to
Speaker 1: the point where I've even turned up today in gold
Speaker 1: Sparkles in your honor, yes, but in all seriousness, I'm
Speaker 1: such a big admirer and it's a real honor to
Speaker 1: have you on the show today.
Speaker 3: Right back at you.
Speaker 2: I think it's so we're in such a unique time
Speaker 2: at the moment because of Lockdown, that our digital admirations
Speaker 2: and friendships they feel so visceral because it's all we
Speaker 2: have at the moment. So I've made some of my
Speaker 2: best friends over the last two years in Lockdown that
Speaker 2: I've not even had a chance to actually hang out
Speaker 2: with properly.
Speaker 3: Irl. So yeah, the love is very mutual, my Dalin.
Speaker 1: Oh, you are the sweetest and I love that you
Speaker 1: use the word viseral. I feel like I just want
Speaker 1: to give you a hug, but I don't know what
Speaker 1: that actually feels like. But I feel like I miss
Speaker 1: it anyway. Well, before we jump into your path ya
Speaker 1: as I call it, I love to start by asking
Speaker 1: everyone what the most down to earth thing is about them,
Speaker 1: to break through what is really often a quite glossy
Speaker 1: kind of service level identity is perceived through the media
Speaker 1: or social media. And you have such an incredible story,
Speaker 1: I mean, very hugely coveted positions to your name. You
Speaker 1: are such a great pillar of society that you know,
Speaker 1: we all admire you so much, so it can be
Speaker 1: very easy to forget that you're a normal human who
Speaker 1: like takes out the b and like, I love your
Speaker 1: beautiful mom. She's the absolute greatest. You know, what is
Speaker 1: something just really normal about you?
Speaker 2: I think that's firstly, thank you, that's incredibly flattering. I
Speaker 2: think it's really interesting that you bring this up because
Speaker 2: we were just talking about this at dinner last night,
Speaker 2: my parents and I was talking about Kim Kardashian and
Speaker 2: her SNL performance or hosting her hosting gig, and I said,
Speaker 2: the thing that I love most about Kim is that,
Speaker 2: you know, she's the most famous woman in the world,
Speaker 2: yet the girls just a down to earth, sweet valley
Speaker 2: girl from Calabasas like still is to this day, and
Speaker 2: I've followed her since season one, and I think that's
Speaker 2: why people like her. And then we were kind of
Speaker 2: talking about what can happen when you get sort.
Speaker 3: Of thrust into the public arena.
Speaker 2: First and foremost, I do not consider myself in that
Speaker 2: vein whatsoever. Like someone messaged me on Instagram the other
Speaker 2: day and said, you should be on I'm a celebrity,
Speaker 2: Get me out of here, and I was like, why
Speaker 2: would I be on that show. I'm not a celebrity.
Speaker 2: I'm certainely aware of like people's perceptions maybe of where
Speaker 2: I sit in that arena of you know, digital creators.
Speaker 2: But I'm just Denny from Geelong, and I really mean that,
Speaker 2: like it's literally just for me. I will always just be,
Speaker 2: you know, a little ethnic kid from g Town who
Speaker 2: went to a public school, you know, the son of
Speaker 2: two migrant parents. My mum still yells at me when
Speaker 2: I don't make my bed properly, like it's very normal
Speaker 2: in this house. My parents do not treat me like
Speaker 2: I should be on I'm a celebrity, and I don't
Speaker 2: think of myself as that way. And I think that
Speaker 2: on a perhaps a bit more of a deeper, sort
Speaker 2: of more spiritual level. I think whenever our life is
Speaker 2: dictated by our ego voice, that's when shit gets really dangerous.
Speaker 2: And that's when people get just too big for their boots,
Speaker 2: and that they forget who they are and they forget
Speaker 2: their roots. So for me, I always, at all costs
Speaker 2: anytime I get a smidgy of ego voice, I'm like,
Speaker 2: see you later, honey, we don't need you here.
Speaker 1: I think that's another reason why people are so drawn
Speaker 1: to you, as you're such an amazing role model for
Speaker 1: so many important messages of identity and self love and acceptance.
Speaker 1: But also you've got and such a huge audience, but
Speaker 1: stayed just Danny from Gtown, and you know, you spend
Speaker 1: so much time with your beautiful family and even watching
Speaker 1: your incredible dancing videos. They just make my life. And
Speaker 1: I'm like a big keypop dancer, so I just get
Speaker 1: so excited. But I also love that your bins are
Speaker 1: in line along the fence in the background. I'm like, yes, yes, Denny.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, like that's so funny that
Speaker 2: you should notice that because the bins and the green
Speaker 2: plastic chair are the they're the MVPs of those videos,
Speaker 2: and I remember when I first started making them, someone
Speaker 2: said to me, why don't you tidy up the background
Speaker 2: a bit more?
Speaker 3: And I was like, but why would.
Speaker 2: I Like, I'm not j Lo, this is not a
Speaker 2: you know, this is not a VMA performance. I'm just
Speaker 2: dancing my backyard. So yeah, I said, we keep it
Speaker 2: real here. I don't take the bins out. My dad does,
Speaker 2: and he always gets cranky at me because of my
Speaker 2: acrylic nows. I'm like, sorry, Dad, I can't take the
Speaker 2: bins out, but you know, we keep it real here, very.
Speaker 3: Really this house.
Speaker 1: And that's why I like. It's such a weird question.
Speaker 1: People find it quite jarring at the beginning, like how
Speaker 1: you even describe what's down to earth about you? But
Speaker 1: I also love starting with it because then, like everything
Speaker 1: else that comes afterwards, people walk into your life at
Speaker 1: this chapter. Often it's on the cover of a magazine
Speaker 1: or as the face of a campaign, and it's so
Speaker 1: easy to detach from like you're just a normal person.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got parents, you live in the suburbs,
Speaker 1: you have bins that you've got to take out, and like,
Speaker 1: one of the things I love about you is also
Speaker 1: how beautifully you navigate topics that are new in conversation
Speaker 1: in society that are sometimes awkward or difficult. But I
Speaker 1: was listening to you on Mia Friedman's podcast recently and
Speaker 1: the way that she had like genuine questions about once
Speaker 1: you've come out as non binary, how do you deal
Speaker 1: with restrooms? Do you change depending on which energy is
Speaker 1: it feminine or masculine? And how you were just like, look,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I walk into the wrong one and
Speaker 1: I'm either chatting with girls over the basin or I'm
Speaker 1: standing at a urinal in a skirt, But I like
Speaker 1: the dick. I mean, what can I say? I was like,
Speaker 1: this is the energy we all need.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad to feel that way. You feel that way.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's one of the most overused
Speaker 2: words on the internet, but I can't stress enough how
Speaker 2: important it is just to live authentically, and then that
Speaker 2: should really resonate into everything that you do, whether you're
Speaker 2: a cleaner like my parents work for a decade, or
Speaker 2: whether you're Kim Kardashian. Authenticity will get you everywhere. And
Speaker 2: I just don't believe in existing in any other way.
Speaker 1: And this is why we all adore you so much,
Speaker 1: Denny Balan, So you're way to you take us back
Speaker 1: to very young Denny, growing up in Gtown. What were
Speaker 1: you like as a kid. I think it's so important
Speaker 1: to trace through all the chapters of people's lives before
Speaker 1: the one that we meet them in, particularly because I
Speaker 1: don't think we give enough airtime to how much we
Speaker 1: all lose direction along the way. Like now, your values
Speaker 1: and your message are so clear, and you have such
Speaker 1: a sense of purpose around how to communicate them, but
Speaker 1: I know there are many chapters beforehand of you know,
Speaker 1: like torment and challenge to get there and figure out
Speaker 1: who you are. And you know a lot of people
Speaker 1: might not know that you were Jehovah's witness from ten
Speaker 1: to eighteen, and that carries with it a whole lot
Speaker 1: of challenge. So talk us through that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I think first and foremost the
Speaker 2: words you were looking for there is trauma. And whilst
Speaker 2: my childhood and I mean my whole life really has
Speaker 2: been filled with many layers of trauma, My childhood was
Speaker 2: pretty idyllic, Like mom and Dad are legends. They had
Speaker 2: me when they were twenty one, so we've always been
Speaker 2: very close.
Speaker 3: We have like a very.
Speaker 2: Yeah that were babies having babies, but that was very
Speaker 2: normal in that decade.
Speaker 3: And also it's very normal in ethnic communities.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what it's like in the Asian community,
Speaker 2: but in the ethnic community, like if you're a wog mate,
Speaker 2: you're having babies as soon as you can, as soon
Speaker 2: as you're virtile. Okay them outsis. So Mom had me
Speaker 2: at twenty one, and she was just you know, I
Speaker 2: was her little best friend and she was mine and
Speaker 2: she still is to this day. So as a kid,
Speaker 2: it was lots of uncles and aunties and you know,
Speaker 2: cousins and grandma's and everyone's a grandma in you know,
Speaker 2: Serbian community, you respect everyone as if they're literally your
Speaker 2: immediate family. And our house was kind of like Grand
Speaker 2: Central Station. So everyone would always come.
Speaker 3: To our house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were the house that like hosted weekend parties
Speaker 2: and Monopoly. I remember my uncles and artist used to
Speaker 2: play Monopoly till like four in the morning, and you know,
Speaker 2: just be like drinking and like smoking SIGs and just
Speaker 2: sitting there like proper ethnic humans.
Speaker 3: And I would just sit there like watching.
Speaker 2: Them in all being like, oh my gosh, I'm so
Speaker 2: lucky to live in this community that I'm never alone,
Speaker 2: but then that side saddled with always feeling tremendously alone
Speaker 2: in my feelings and my identity. So I had this
Speaker 2: really like, you know, robust community around me, but I
Speaker 2: had no one to talk to about how I really felt.
Speaker 2: So it was my whole life actually is very has
Speaker 2: been about duality. If I was to use a word
Speaker 2: to describe my life, it's duality because you know, on
Speaker 2: one hand, you have this very creative, always dancing in
Speaker 2: front of the tally, always putting on a show when
Speaker 2: family would come over, person versus then this really quite introverted, anxious, overthinker,
Speaker 2: hypervigilant person. So there was constantly that. So I'd go
Speaker 2: to school get super bullied, that I'd come home and
Speaker 2: I'd have my mum there and you know, she's my bestie,
Speaker 2: and we'd sit down and watch days of our lives and.
Speaker 3: You know, talk like adults.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was real dichotomy growing up. But I
Speaker 2: have nothing but fond memories of my childhood. The good
Speaker 2: will always outweigh the bad with my childhood.
Speaker 1: Oh that's really beautiful, And I think something that's really
Speaker 1: I think probably resonating with so many people about your
Speaker 1: whole journey is knowing certain aspects of your identity before
Speaker 1: you could even Like you were four, I think when
Speaker 1: you first started to really think about sexuality and gender
Speaker 1: and well before you even had the words to articulate
Speaker 1: what that meant. And for you it's been in sexuality,
Speaker 1: but for other people it might be in Korea or
Speaker 1: other kind of you know, inclination. But a lot of
Speaker 1: us spend a lot of our lives shedding the layers
Speaker 1: of hiding who we are and figuring out, you know,
Speaker 1: what's really underneath. So it's fascinating to me that it
Speaker 1: started from so young for you, and it then took
Speaker 1: you until you know, four weeks before your nineteenth birthday,
Speaker 1: before your first coming.
Speaker 3: Out, you know, done your research.
Speaker 1: It's the ex lawyer in me.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, I mean you were also trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what you were going to do in
Speaker 1: life and what your purpose was, so fashion studies at
Speaker 1: the Paris Fashion Institute, then starting at Maya, Like, how
Speaker 1: did that coming of age teenage to sort of starting
Speaker 1: your career time work out for you? As it was
Speaker 1: starting to become more like you knew how to articulate
Speaker 1: what you were feeling, and then to a religious immigrant
Speaker 1: family breaking the news.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: I mean hypervigilants and a sense of self awareness is
Speaker 2: I think something that's very innate to people because you're
Speaker 2: constantly analyzing how you feel because it's so different to
Speaker 2: what you see around you. So as a teenager, I said, oh, sorry,
Speaker 2: like you said, I knew I was gay from as
Speaker 2: early as four. I knew I wasn't as a boy
Speaker 2: from as early as three. I just didn't have the
Speaker 2: language for that one. Yeah, from as early as three.
Speaker 2: But I yeah, but the gay thing, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: luckily I grew up in a time where there was
Speaker 2: language to articulate how I felt sexually, So navigating how
Speaker 2: to come out was really hard because it's honestly, I
Speaker 2: remember sitting in church, babe and thinking, you will never
Speaker 2: come out like you.
Speaker 3: Just that will never be an option.
Speaker 2: And I would crumble because we've got to church three
Speaker 2: times a week, we would drawknock twice a week and generally,
Speaker 2: if not once a week, and at least so being
Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witness is a lifestyle.
Speaker 3: It's the same as being.
Speaker 2: You know, a scientologist, a Muslim, any of those religions
Speaker 2: that are your life.
Speaker 3: That's what being a j Dub was like.
Speaker 1: So that's why I you just called it a Jada. Yeah,
Speaker 1: day's amazing, Yeah, so much.
Speaker 2: I really resonate with stories when I hear these stories
Speaker 2: like I just recently watched My Unorthodox Life, you know,
Speaker 2: and when I hear these stories of people coming out
Speaker 2: of these very lifestyle based religions, you know, being a
Speaker 2: Jehovah's witness has been referred to by some of my
Speaker 2: friends as like a little bit cult adjacent. And whilst
Speaker 2: I will never jump on Mike and like bash that religion,
Speaker 2: I have nothing but respect for people's faith. It's really
Speaker 2: insidious in that it creeps into your every decision because
Speaker 2: you're first and.
Speaker 3: Foremost, you're putting God's will first.
Speaker 2: And if you're a little gay kid at church like
Speaker 2: fantasizing about I don't know your science teacher, that doesn't
Speaker 2: fly down so well with old made upstairs. So it
Speaker 2: was really tricky for me to naviget that. But when
Speaker 2: I got to nineteen, I was like, I can't do
Speaker 2: it anymore. I will either come out or end my life.
Speaker 2: And it was one or the other, and you know,
Speaker 2: life is too precious, so it was difficult. But then
Speaker 2: I will say that as soon as I came out,
Speaker 2: all the other little parts of the puzzle started to align.
Speaker 2: Because fashion has always.
Speaker 3: Been in my blood.
Speaker 2: I've always been obsessed with it, and you know, fashion
Speaker 2: is driven by the queer community. There's so many beautiful
Speaker 2: queer people in that industry. So I'm really glad I
Speaker 2: came out when I did, because as soon as I
Speaker 2: got that first job at Maya, I could just exist
Speaker 2: really freely, as you know, I'll say then, like a
Speaker 2: gay man working in fashion.
Speaker 3: It felt really glamorous.
Speaker 2: It was my little kind of devil wes prit A
Speaker 2: moment and it was fabulous and I loved it. But
Speaker 2: I think that had I gone into that job still
Speaker 2: in the closet, still a Jehovah's witness like, it would
Speaker 2: have been torture.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that hiding or suppressing really fundamental parts
Speaker 1: of your identity in any area, but especially sexuality exhausting.
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you even function life and identity
Speaker 1: is unraveling so fast anyway, let alone with deep fundamental
Speaker 1: layers of yourself and kidden all the time I love
Speaker 1: also that you describe your devil wast pride a moment
Speaker 1: as being like you were taking Pantone colors as seriously
Speaker 1: as life or death.
Speaker 2: Literally, I'm like.
Speaker 1: Yes, so important in the scheme of life.
Speaker 2: I said to someone yesterday, I said, what we do
Speaker 2: is pr it's not eer And that's a common thread. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's like a common phrase in my industry, because you know,
Speaker 2: it can be so easy to get consumed by the
Speaker 2: things that you love. If anything, it's kind of fabulous
Speaker 2: that you should love something so much that a color
Speaker 2: keeps you up at night, or you know, a dress
Speaker 2: that you're dying to get for your client for the
Speaker 2: logis would keep you up at night, Like what a
Speaker 2: first world problem to have. But then the last two
Speaker 2: years has made us realize what is actually important in life.
Speaker 2: So yeah, the Pantone colors at that time, let me
Speaker 2: tell you the amount of sleep that we lost at
Speaker 2: Cosmo when something you go to print and it was
Speaker 2: the wrong color.
Speaker 3: But now you just kind of go, oh, well, what
Speaker 3: are you going to do? The babes, where's the AA valves?
Speaker 1: But I also love that you mentioned the jigsaw puzzle pieces,
Speaker 1: and I think like the Wayta or the path Hea concept.
Speaker 1: Why I spend so much time on it is to
Speaker 1: show that there isn't a single guest we have ever had,
Speaker 1: no matter how far along they are, and no matter
Speaker 1: how successful or or not yet at the stage that
Speaker 1: they want to be at, no matter where they are,
Speaker 1: there's always identity as puzzle pieces. No one wakes up
Speaker 1: with the full puzzle. In fact, at all times, I
Speaker 1: think we spend so much of our time in Korea
Speaker 1: and in identity aiming for like the perfect us, the
Speaker 1: perfect us, as if it's a destination, as if one
Speaker 1: day we're going to wake up and be like, this
Speaker 1: is me. But I feel like at any time we're
Speaker 1: actually just getting rid of pieces that don't work and
Speaker 1: adding new pieces that do. And the puzzle is meant
Speaker 1: to be evolving. So at the time, Cosmo was your
Speaker 1: whole identity, that was what made you happy, and that
Speaker 1: was aligned with who you wanted to be and what
Speaker 1: you wanted to get out of life. But it's okay
Speaker 1: for that to move on and shift and for different
Speaker 1: chapters to unravel. So I mean, you've worked in the UK,
Speaker 1: you started a British Vogue style by Danny has Kind,
Speaker 1: of all been merged into the pathway from you know,
Speaker 1: maybe the beginning of that fashion career until really Cosmo
Speaker 1: ended in twenty eighteen, and that started a whole new
Speaker 1: cycle of rebuilding identity. Can you talk us through building
Speaker 1: from an intern in a new industry to becoming an
Speaker 1: editor like that in itself is like one whole lifetime's
Speaker 1: worth of material.
Speaker 2: Sure, So I always say that I don't think I'm
Speaker 2: a tremendously like academic person.
Speaker 3: My brain is the creative side.
Speaker 2: So when I left school, I did contemplate going to
Speaker 2: university and kind of getting a bachelor degree in fashion,
Speaker 2: but that was just never going to be in my path.
Speaker 3: And also, I think culturally it was ingrained to me
Speaker 3: that only rich white people go to UNI. Wegstone go
Speaker 3: to UNI.
Speaker 2: It's not like there's one person in my family that
Speaker 2: in my extended family that's gone to UNI. And also,
Speaker 2: just disclaiming for your listeners, I use that term incredibly endearingly,
Speaker 2: So I hope that people are aware of that.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't expect anything late, So you know, I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: You're not going to go to UNI.
Speaker 2: But I really always had a really strong work ethic,
Speaker 2: and I said to Mom and Dad, well, I'm going
Speaker 2: to go do this course in Paris. It goes for
Speaker 2: a summer and then I'll come back. And I was
Speaker 2: hit the ground running because I firmly believe that you
Speaker 2: can learn best on the job. You can never learn
Speaker 2: like the way you learn in a classroom is not
Speaker 2: how you learn.
Speaker 3: On the job.
Speaker 2: So when I moved to London, yeah, I just started interning.
Speaker 2: My little took us off. So I worked in PR
Speaker 2: for a year. Had no idea what PI even meant.
Speaker 2: I had to google what it stood for, and then.
Speaker 3: Did that for a year and actually did quite well.
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, this is cool. I can talk
Speaker 3: a lot. I even had to market things.
Speaker 2: And then I jumped to the magazine sector because I've
Speaker 2: been obsessed with mag since I was eleven. So when
Speaker 2: you're like interning at British Fogue, which talk about CZA.
Speaker 2: That happened because I introduced myself to the editor at
Speaker 2: a fashion show and basically like cornered her.
Speaker 3: And was like, can I email you please? I really
Speaker 3: want to email you in my TV.
Speaker 2: She was like sure, you know, and then and for
Speaker 2: six weeks later, I'm sitting in the cupverd at British
Speaker 2: organ I was like, wow, how am I here? So
Speaker 2: all those moments I just really you know, the want
Speaker 2: of a better term, seizing that opportunity. If there is
Speaker 2: someone in front of you introduce yourself, the worst they
Speaker 2: can do is look at.
Speaker 3: You and like say no. So I did that a lot.
Speaker 2: So when I came home from London, I started the
Speaker 2: blog Style by Denny, which doesn't exist anymore. But I
Speaker 2: really wanted that that magazine job. There was something about
Speaker 2: it for me that I just needed to tick off
Speaker 2: the list. So when I moved to Sydney at twenty six,
Speaker 2: I started interning at twenty seven and my.
Speaker 3: Dad was like, how can you do this again? You're
Speaker 3: not getting paid again.
Speaker 2: You're working, you know, a retail job to supplement this internship,
Speaker 2: Like is it actually worth it? And I said, Dad,
Speaker 2: I have a feeling it's all gonna work out, dad.
Speaker 2: And I was there for six months and then got
Speaker 2: a job, you know, And that was the best five
Speaker 2: years of my life. Cosmo are some of the most
Speaker 2: cherished memories I will ever have. The things I learned
Speaker 2: in those five years will serve me forever. The family
Speaker 2: that I made there, and the puzzle piece that Cosmo
Speaker 2: played in me finding my identity was by far the
Speaker 2: most defining chapter of my life thus far.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so fascinating, and I think it's so valuable
Speaker 1: that reminder of like, if you don't ask, it's a no.
Speaker 1: And there are some pathways that are really clear, like
Speaker 1: you can't be a doctor unless you do X amount
Speaker 1: of years of study, and you.
Speaker 3: Have to do you want to.
Speaker 1: But there are also areas where if you don't just
Speaker 1: sort of suggest an opportunity to almost create one where
Speaker 1: there isn't one, Like if you hadn't been bold enough
Speaker 1: to walk up and have a conversation with that editor,
Speaker 1: you would never have gotten that job, which would then
Speaker 1: probably have not led to the internship, which then wouldn't
Speaker 1: have led to climbing the ladder. And I think that
Speaker 1: people really want to walk into a job at the
Speaker 1: job they want. They don't want to go from the
Speaker 1: bottom and believe that positioning yourself where lightning is going
Speaker 1: to strike at each point can get you further than
Speaker 1: you could ever know. So, I mean, you became fashion
Speaker 1: editor from an intern within one organization, what would you
Speaker 1: say to anyone who's aspiring to become, you know, especially
Speaker 1: in journalism where it's fiercely competitive, but just making yourself
Speaker 1: stand out and being patient while you're not where you
Speaker 1: want to be yet, but also trusting that you will
Speaker 1: be able to get there. How did you navigate that ladder?
Speaker 2: So my advice I would say to anyone is you
Speaker 2: need to be two things, or if you're not one
Speaker 2: of the two, then you need to figure out how
Speaker 2: to be the other one. Because for me, the magic
Speaker 2: source of success in any field actually is to be
Speaker 2: the smartest person in the room, but also the kindest
Speaker 2: person in the room. So for me, it's all about
Speaker 2: if you love insects, throw yourself into research and education
Speaker 2: until you know the back of insects, like I know
Speaker 2: the catalog of Prata's fucking discography of life. I can
Speaker 2: tell you every product collection that's existed between when she
Speaker 2: started to now. And that came with many, many long
Speaker 2: nights of research, but it never felt like work because
Speaker 2: I loved it. It was a world that I'm genuinely
Speaker 2: obsessed with. So when I first got that internship in London,
Speaker 2: my bosses were just really impressed by how much I knew.
Speaker 2: My knowledge of the history of fashion, my knowledge of references.
Speaker 2: I'm like a rollerdex of information. So knowledge maybe is
Speaker 2: better word than saying smart, because I think that can
Speaker 2: be quite subjective. But be knowledgeable, know your shit, and
Speaker 2: then secondly, be kind because people notice that when you
Speaker 2: come into the office or any space that you work
Speaker 2: in and you have a kind disposition and you genuinely
Speaker 2: want to be at people's hand length to help.
Speaker 3: Do you need this, do you need that?
Speaker 2: Is it getting a coffee? Is it photocopying stuff? It
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what it is. When you were there to assist,
Speaker 2: you just do it. I used to pick up, you know,
Speaker 2: the laundry of a style of that I was assisting
Speaker 2: in London. You know, when I started working with her,
Speaker 2: she was going through a breakup. I was her therapist
Speaker 2: more than I was her assistant.
Speaker 3: But you know, you just do it.
Speaker 2: I think also we've kind of learned over the last
Speaker 2: few years, especially that there can be a great amount of,
Speaker 2: you know, an abusive power.
Speaker 3: That occurs in those sorts of environments. So don't let
Speaker 3: people take the piss.
Speaker 2: But in the best environment, you will learn every single
Speaker 2: day on the job, and when you come with eagerness
Speaker 2: and kindness and empathy, and you just like you go ham,
Speaker 2: there's no.
Speaker 3: Way you will fail none.
Speaker 2: And I knew that you have to have a lot
Speaker 2: of self assurance in a weird way. And for me,
Speaker 2: there was no plan B. Everyone used to always say
Speaker 2: to me, what's going to happen if you don't work
Speaker 2: in fashion? And I was like, well, that's never gonna happen,
Speaker 2: so catch you on the book. So maybe that's stupid,
Speaker 2: maybe that's really like idealistic and you know, quite romantic
Speaker 2: in my mind, but that was the only option.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I love that you really bring to
Speaker 1: the forefront of their attention and how kindness is such
Speaker 1: an important currency that it gets overlooked so often, and
Speaker 1: that's I think that's the thing that people remember more
Speaker 1: than that you, you know, sold X amount of magazines
Speaker 1: and that these metrics happened and you weren't this amount
Speaker 1: of money. It's kindness in your legacy and.
Speaker 2: I can you know, when I became a fashion editor,
Speaker 2: I then suddenly became someone who was managing interns and
Speaker 2: I would see them come through the doors, and I
Speaker 2: would always see the sort of rich human with the
Speaker 2: Gucci belt, and you know, they got an uber to
Speaker 2: intern that day, and then I would see the working
Speaker 2: class person you know in their came up jeans doing
Speaker 2: the best that they can. And I will tell you now,
Speaker 2: I could care less what brand the shirt is on
Speaker 2: your back. If you don't enter a space with kindness,
Speaker 2: people will remember. And truly, I can't stress that enough.
Speaker 2: Fashion is often very superfluous and superficial, but it really
Speaker 2: does not matter what you're wearing. It matters, like how
Speaker 2: your soul shines through. You could be wearing a paper bag,
Speaker 2: but if you have, if you have the X factor,
Speaker 2: you can buy the Gucci belt when you get the
Speaker 2: pay rise, don't worry about it, like I'm.
Speaker 3: Telling them, you just do you.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so true. And I think that's something
Speaker 1: else that I like looking back at your time at
Speaker 1: cosmeon the way you've spoken about it as well, is
Speaker 1: the idea that, like to get to where you want
Speaker 1: to go, you do have to sometimes do things you
Speaker 1: don't want to do and go through chapters that you
Speaker 1: don't love. You don't seizing the A isn't having ya
Speaker 1: all the time. It means doing all the things that
Speaker 1: are necessary to get you there. And like I know,
Speaker 1: you started in digital and YouTube, which is something you
Speaker 1: weren't really even interested in, but it was a foot
Speaker 1: in the door. And like one of the ways you
Speaker 1: once describe being a picture editor was if there's an
Speaker 1: article in Cosmo about anal and there's a picture of
Speaker 1: a peach next to it. I was the person in
Speaker 1: charge of the picture of the peach. I was like, nice.
Speaker 1: I mean, you really worked your way up from the
Speaker 1: bott started from the bottom.
Speaker 3: Now we're here, literally, and you know how much cried
Speaker 3: are used to taking that.
Speaker 2: I would come to those picture meetings with every example
Speaker 2: under the sun, because you know, you get a brief
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, we're doing a story about.
Speaker 3: You know, blowjobs.
Speaker 2: Okay, well you can't you know, sort of putting a
Speaker 2: dick in the magazine, which we didn't do. You know
Speaker 2: that stopped in the nineties. You have to think, you know,
Speaker 2: outside the box and think of how am I going
Speaker 2: to make this exciting but also interesting and visually a feeling.
Speaker 2: And I really took a lot of pride in those jobs,
Speaker 2: and I knew that they were not what I wanted
Speaker 2: to do, they were not the end goal, but I
Speaker 2: knew that they would get me there.
Speaker 3: And you know, Beyonce wasn't built in a day.
Speaker 2: Do you really think she wanted to be on all
Speaker 2: of those like competitions when she was nine years old
Speaker 2: getting rejected and you know, seeing men win over her.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, But look at her.
Speaker 1: Now, right, Danny was also not built in a day.
Speaker 1: I love that, even though you know, people could have
Speaker 1: turned up in a paper bag and won you'r hard
Speaker 1: with their kindness. I'm sure there were some moments that
Speaker 1: were just so fucking glam being a fashion editor at Cosmo.
Speaker 1: So what were some of your like dish the dirt
Speaker 1: on some of your highest highs in that role and
Speaker 1: then some of the lowest lows as well that we
Speaker 1: might never expect could kind of happen when on the
Speaker 1: outside it probably was like you were just smashing it.
Speaker 3: So let's start with the lows.
Speaker 2: The lows of working in magazines is that they pay
Speaker 2: jack shit. So and I don't say that lightly. You know,
Speaker 2: my first salary at Cosmo I think was forty one
Speaker 2: thousand dollars or thirty nine thousand dollars. It was pretty menual.
Speaker 2: And to live in Sydney and to be paying rent.
Speaker 3: Like you know, I remember, do the math, do the math.
Speaker 2: And you know, my friends were working in accountancy jobs
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I would call them and you know,
Speaker 2: they're on eighty ninety k year and here I am earning, like,
Speaker 2: you know, forty grand a year and trying to put
Speaker 2: two coins together and then looking the part as well,
Speaker 2: because it does come with the pressure. So that was
Speaker 2: really hard. Often it felt like, you know, you were
Speaker 2: there because you should be so honored to be there.
Speaker 2: You know, it would have been nice to have been
Speaker 2: paid accordingly. However, what I did see from early on
Speaker 2: was that, you know, when I got the job, my
Speaker 2: editor said to me, Denny, you got your dream job
Speaker 2: five years too late. Because in the heyday of ACP Media,
Speaker 2: when Kerry Packer was there, it was like big salaries,
Speaker 2: fancy Christmas hampers that every employee got. Every used to
Speaker 2: hear those stories. Meanwhile, when I worked at Baoer Media,
Speaker 2: Bower Media didn't even provide us with coffee, like instant
Speaker 2: coffee in the kitchen.
Speaker 3: So let me tell you a funny story. On my
Speaker 3: first week of Cosmo, I.
Speaker 2: Went to the kitchen and I opened the drawer and
Speaker 2: there was a jar of macona in the kitchen, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I called my mom and I was like, Mom,
Speaker 2: this is great. They've got like a Macona in the drawers.
Speaker 2: I was making myself a cup of macona every morning.
Speaker 2: A week later, there's a sign on the thing that says,
Speaker 2: whoever is stealing my Macona, please stop, written by Lee Campbell,
Speaker 2: who's now one of my best friends.
Speaker 3: And I I walked into the office and I said, Lee,
Speaker 3: I thought Baoer provided that macona. And everyone just looked
Speaker 3: at me and said, oh, Jenny Darling, you have so
Speaker 3: much to learn, like what you know.
Speaker 2: So I think that was probably yeah, probably they're not
Speaker 2: so fun part because when you're producing a magazine as well,
Speaker 2: you want big budgets.
Speaker 3: You have all these grand dreams.
Speaker 2: But I will say to flip that to a positive,
Speaker 2: it teaches you how to be really resourceful. It teaches
Speaker 2: you how to make the best product possible with very
Speaker 2: little budgets.
Speaker 3: So, you know, we learned something.
Speaker 2: It taught me how to live in a city like
Speaker 2: Sydney that was so expensive and just make it work
Speaker 2: with buying stuff at H and M instead of like
Speaker 2: rolling up in you know, po Taga Venetta.
Speaker 3: So that's the low side.
Speaker 2: The highlight and perhaps the most incredible surreal moments of
Speaker 2: that job were the people that we had access to.
Speaker 2: So I'll never forget my first year at Cosmo. We
Speaker 2: used to have this event called Woman of the Year,
Speaker 2: and for the first one, you know, we had Julia
Speaker 2: Gillard being inaugurated into our Women of the Year Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame.
Speaker 3: She was brought up onto stage by Lisa Wilkinson.
Speaker 2: You know. The following year, Julia Gillard inaugurated Delta Gudram
Speaker 2: into our Hall of Fame. And when you get to
Speaker 2: be in the presence of these people like Julia Gillard,
Speaker 2: blew me away. And I would never have those opportunities
Speaker 2: had I not worked at Cosmo. In terms of the
Speaker 2: glamorous stuff, absolutely, there's packagers arriving every day, gifts arriving
Speaker 2: every day. That's just journalism or perhaps lifestyle media one
Speaker 2: oh one. You become actually quite numb to them because
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, another press kits arrived, another free lipstick,
Speaker 2: you know, another random cake that someone sent you. It
Speaker 2: does become a little bit you get used to it.
Speaker 2: But it was something that I never took for granted
Speaker 2: because I would look at my other friends jobs and
Speaker 2: they were working at like KPMG, earning one hundred grand
Speaker 2: a year, but they were fucking miserable.
Speaker 3: You know, at Cosmo, the Bachelor.
Speaker 2: Would be, you know, debuting on Channel ten and we'd
Speaker 2: get some shirtless model that would come in with like,
Speaker 2: you know, a tray of roses to like hand out
Speaker 2: to everyone in the office. I mean it's pretty great,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: So, I mean that's what I would say. It was
Speaker 3: buber glamorous. You know.
Speaker 2: I didn't get I didn't work at like a Voger
Speaker 2: or harp As though, so it wasn't like I was
Speaker 2: getting in like Chanel handbags that would have been nice.
Speaker 2: But I will say here some TFU. When I interned
Speaker 2: at in Style in the UK, I'll never forget. I
Speaker 2: interned there over the Christmas period and the gifts that
Speaker 2: these editors were getting. I'm talking Chaneale bags, Christian Luberton shoes,
Speaker 2: Prada for Christmas, and I was like, Wow, these people
Speaker 2: are living a life. You know. The editor of InStyle
Speaker 2: at the time had a chauffeur who drove her to
Speaker 2: work every day. Like I can tell you right now,
Speaker 2: Branda mccahn was not being chauffeur to work every day.
Speaker 1: So this week is actually the two year anniversary of
Speaker 1: my episode with Laura Brown My Love Time. She's the
Speaker 1: greatest ever. But we were on Necker Island, of all places,
Speaker 1: and she had to drive a buggy. Couldn't drive a buggy.
Speaker 1: I was like, Laura Brown trying to drive a buggy.
Speaker 1: This is hilarious.
Speaker 2: I mean, there is an example of an incredible woman
Speaker 2: who is at the top of her game, and she's
Speaker 2: the most down to earth woman ever. I've met her
Speaker 2: once and I literally was just like in awe of.
Speaker 3: How kind she was. You know, it goes back to
Speaker 3: that she knows so shit, but she's fucking kind mate.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I also love this, like you dishing the tea of
Speaker 1: how on the one hand, you're like shooting Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: for the cover. On the other hand, the coffee you
Speaker 1: were excited about was instant Macona. It was something like
Speaker 1: n Espresso. It's like, we get free instant Macona. This
Speaker 1: is so exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was.
Speaker 3: It was good, lovely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You may have seen Denny as one of the faces
Speaker 1: of the Body Shop's self love campaign, just one of
Speaker 1: the many ways that they support equality and one of
Speaker 1: the many reasons I love working with them. Another Body
Speaker 1: Shop initiative I Loved Learning About is their Youth Activist series.
Speaker 1: Since twenty nineteen, the Body Shop has proudly supported Charity
Speaker 1: for Girls Equality, Plan International Australia through this leadership program,
Speaker 1: supporting young people as they become future leaders and change makers. Globally,
Speaker 1: we're living through so massive digital change escalated through the
Speaker 1: pandemic and young people need to be supported to navigate
Speaker 1: the space. Every day, young people globally, particularly girls and
Speaker 1: gender diverse folks, are physically threatened, racially abused, sexually harassed
Speaker 1: and body shamed online, especially when they raise their voices
Speaker 1: and share their opinions. Online violence causes real harm and
Speaker 1: it's silencing young people in a space where they should
Speaker 1: be free to be. In twenty twenty one, the Youth
Speaker 1: Activists have undertaken extensive research asking what is needed to
Speaker 1: mobilize and support people to be active online bystanders when
Speaker 1: they witness online gender based violence. So one dollar from
Speaker 1: every Body Shop lip vinyl sold will be donated to
Speaker 1: Plan International Australia, the Charity for Girls Equality, to empower
Speaker 1: young people striving to create a safer online world. Visit
Speaker 1: the Bodyshop dot com dot a U to learn more.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: One of the things I find the most interesting about
Speaker 1: this is how much you seem to just love that
Speaker 1: role and so up and experience in four years like
Speaker 1: a lifetime worth of development. But unlike many people, the
Speaker 1: chapters change when they grow out of a role or
Speaker 1: some big disaster happens, like they get sick or they
Speaker 1: burn out. But for you, it was Cosmo closing in
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and that wasn't something that was on the
Speaker 1: cards or that you gradually built yourself up to. So
Speaker 1: that tearing away of one identity and then throwing yourself
Speaker 1: into when I don't have that title and prestige, who
Speaker 1: am I? Is something I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: have gone through in this pandemic, having their plans torn
Speaker 1: away from them and having to rebuild, but realizing that's
Speaker 1: actually really exciting. Sometimes storms don't come to disrupt your life.
Speaker 1: They come to clear a path for something better.
Speaker 3: How did you right? You? Yes?
Speaker 1: How did that feel to have that dream kind of
Speaker 1: almost ripped away from you? But then have that chance
Speaker 1: to now be doing what you're doing, be geelong based again,
Speaker 1: be freelancing, and then you know, becoming the face of
Speaker 1: huge campaigns yourself, like the Body Shop, which I really
Speaker 1: want to talk about. But yeah, first let's go through
Speaker 1: just the transition.
Speaker 2: I mean when I tell you the demise or the
Speaker 2: closure of Cosmo, because it wasn't a demise. It was
Speaker 2: literally closed in a space of four days.
Speaker 1: Four days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tuesday we got the announcement. Friday was our last
Speaker 2: day in the office.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when I tell you that, that was equivalent to
Speaker 2: like my biggest breakup, if not more. I mean, it
Speaker 2: was gut wrenching. It was, and it wasn't an instant like,
Speaker 2: it wasn't an instant gut wrenching. You know, when someone dies.
Speaker 2: He's a perfect example when everyone's different, Everyone praises grief
Speaker 2: different but for me, generally, when someone dies, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's quite a somber thought. You get that phone
Speaker 2: call and you're like fuck, wow, okay, this is bull on,
Speaker 2: But it takes you a couple of days and then
Speaker 2: you find yourself sobbing in the aisles of the supermarket.
Speaker 3: Right, That's what Cosmo was like. That first day was
Speaker 3: so surreal.
Speaker 2: We went to the pub at like eleven o'clock and
Speaker 2: just drank our sorrows, and we were inundated with love
Speaker 2: and messages of support from the entire industry and all
Speaker 2: of our readers. But then it wasn't until like day
Speaker 2: three that I woke up and I was like, wait,
Speaker 2: I don't have a job to go to, Like.
Speaker 3: What is this?
Speaker 2: And then it became even more insidious because for five
Speaker 2: years I was Denny from Cosmo. It was my practically
Speaker 2: on my license, you know, no, but truly it was
Speaker 2: you know, that's how I would introduce myself. You know,
Speaker 2: now I introduced myself with Hi, my name is Danny.
Speaker 2: My pronouns a day them. Back then it was like, hi,
Speaker 2: I'm Jenny from Cosmo. Always and that suddenly it's like
Speaker 2: this big thing that hangs above you. And then suddenly
Speaker 2: that thing is taken away from you, and you're like,
Speaker 2: who am I without that thing? And circling back to
Speaker 2: what we were discussing earlier about ego, you know, it
Speaker 2: would be a remiss of me to not acknowledge the
Speaker 2: fact that, of course there came gravitas with saying that
Speaker 2: you worked at Cosmo. Cosmo was the brand that your
Speaker 2: Uber driver would know, or you know, your sixty year
Speaker 2: old Serbian Uncle New Cosmo. So yeah, it's a legacy
Speaker 2: brand and it was something that I was tremendously proud of,
Speaker 2: so losing that was really hard. I went away with
Speaker 2: my mom to two weeks. I took my redundancy money
Speaker 2: and said, let's go to New York because I don't
Speaker 2: know what to do with my life right now. So
Speaker 2: I took around a holiday and we spent a shit
Speaker 2: ton of money that in retrospect, you know, could have
Speaker 2: gone into savings. But that's Okayama the yay absolutely. So
Speaker 2: when I got back then it was like crunch time
Speaker 2: and I was like, I can't afford to live in
Speaker 2: Sydney as a freelancer.
Speaker 3: I just can't.
Speaker 2: And also this coincided with one of the biggest, the
Speaker 2: darkest chapters in my life in terms of a relationship that.
Speaker 3: I was in.
Speaker 2: So I remember saying to my mom in New York,
Speaker 2: I think I need to come home. I don't know
Speaker 2: for how long, but I just need to come home.
Speaker 2: And the second I got to Geelong, I remember just
Speaker 2: feeling an instant wave of peace. When I landed at
Speaker 2: Avalon Airport.
Speaker 3: I was like Avalon, Yeah, I was like, now you
Speaker 3: can excit and.
Speaker 2: You know, getting in the car and driving down the
Speaker 2: highway and seeing the familiar little spots and Geelong saved
Speaker 2: my life. And I don't say that lightly. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: can't believe the opportunities that I've come my way, Like
Speaker 2: the gratitude doesn't even cut it. And to go from
Speaker 2: not knowing your identity, not knowing how you're going to exist,
Speaker 2: not knowing what your career is going to look like,
Speaker 2: to them being on a fucking life sized billboard for
Speaker 2: a international brand like the body shop around the corner
Speaker 2: from where you used to work in Sydney and used
Speaker 2: to schlept a Cosmo, you know, on that thirty nine
Speaker 2: k a year's salary. Pretty fucking epic And I don't
Speaker 2: like that's not lost on me at all.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it gives me goosebumps, and it makes
Speaker 1: me also feel so privileged to be able to share
Speaker 1: this story at this chapter where it's reassuring to anyone
Speaker 1: who's going through a shit time, because like it's the
Speaker 1: it's those low lows where you actually get off the
Speaker 1: productivity hamster wheel of busy and productive and noise and
Speaker 1: come back to like shit without anything that I thought
Speaker 1: was important. You actually get to realize what really was
Speaker 1: important all along, which is often not the things that
Speaker 1: you've been living your life in accordance with. And I
Speaker 1: love how you've pieced yourself back together in like a
Speaker 1: more authentic way than you probably knew was you beforehand.
Speaker 1: But it does involve a lot of darkness, a lot
Speaker 1: of self doubt, a lot of mental health challenges. That
Speaker 1: rebuilding of identity is probably the most disorientating thing anyone
Speaker 1: can go through. Talk us through some of that self
Speaker 1: doubt and the darkness. How do you find those like
Speaker 1: you're now one of the most positive, excitable, grateful people,
Speaker 1: but when you're in the depths of a depressive episode,
Speaker 1: you can't feel those emotions necessarily, and it's if anyone
Speaker 1: is in them right now. I think it's so reassuring
Speaker 1: to hear that people do work their way back out
Speaker 1: of it to higher highs than they ever knew they
Speaker 1: could have. Ie a full sized bill woard around the
Speaker 1: corner from all your old bosses, like Hey, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, firstly, thank you. That's so tremendously kind
Speaker 2: of you to say. I think that for me, I
Speaker 2: always present as this very positive person like I always
Speaker 2: have since I was little. My dad and I are
Speaker 2: very similar in that way, but I've always had this
Speaker 2: little cloud that hangs over me, and I.
Speaker 3: Never knew what that was called.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until recently that I really started to look
Speaker 2: into that trauma. You know, the anxiety, a few little
Speaker 2: episodes of depression that have come along, and this real
Speaker 2: type a overachieving thing which I've realized in therapy is
Speaker 2: that it's completely related to my queenness. Because when you
Speaker 2: grow up and you have this feeling of other ring,
Speaker 2: particularly when that's linked to masculinity and feeling not masculine
Speaker 2: enough according to the world's.
Speaker 3: Stereotypes, you feel like you have something to prove.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, you're not going to be that kid
Speaker 2: that everyone made fun of that was called a faggot
Speaker 2: every day at high school. You're going to make something
Speaker 2: of yourself and that which is great. I love that,
Speaker 2: but that type a kind of mentality can be quite
Speaker 2: detrimental often, so during that dark period, I just had
Speaker 2: to like peel off the layers and go, Okay, why
Speaker 2: do you have a habit of falling into abusive relationships?
Speaker 3: Why does that keep happening?
Speaker 2: What's the commed name of denominator here because as much
Speaker 2: as it might be the boyfriends, it's also you, Denny.
Speaker 3: So what's your role within this? You know?
Speaker 2: Why don't you back yourself enough? Why are you too
Speaker 2: nervous to go and ask your boss for a pay rise?
Speaker 2: Why are you too nervous to speak up in relationships
Speaker 2: of all kinds?
Speaker 3: So when I came home, the first thing I did
Speaker 3: was find a therapist. It changed my life.
Speaker 2: And I've been in therapy before, but finding a therapist
Speaker 2: is like finding a soul mate. That therapist whilst I
Speaker 2: don't see him anymore, honestly, it's it was just lighte
Speaker 2: bold moment after life bold moment. Then I met a
Speaker 2: spiritual healer who I work with an have worked with
Speaker 2: for the last two years.
Speaker 3: Her name's Elise. She lives in a long shadow. Elise
Speaker 3: at least.
Speaker 2: Changed my life because when I sat down in my
Speaker 2: first reiki healing session with her, she taught me about
Speaker 2: shadow work and the inner child and how you kind
Speaker 2: of look at all these things. So going through the
Speaker 2: darkness is a constant thing, Mate, and then you and
Speaker 2: then you throw on the pandemic, like who thought that
Speaker 2: little thing would happen.
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, if coming to.
Speaker 2: Terms with being made redundant wasn't hard enough, and then
Speaker 2: trying to find your feet as a freelancer, then you
Speaker 2: add onto it gender dysphoria and a pandemic.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, like melting pot of joy for you.
Speaker 2: Love that for you, But diamonds are made in the rough, honey.
Speaker 2: You know you have to kind of like, if you don't.
Speaker 3: Do the work, you can't really vibrate.
Speaker 2: On the frequency in which you deserve. So I hope
Speaker 2: I've answered your question. But essentially for me, it's like
Speaker 2: when you have those moments of darkness, and I've had
Speaker 2: them since I was little. The quicker you sit with
Speaker 2: yourself and the quicker you do that shadow work, the
Speaker 2: better you'll be in the long run, because life's too short. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: waist sitting in that darkness too long.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I always come back to that quote that
Speaker 1: sometimes good things fall apart, so better things can fall together.
Speaker 1: But it does involve the things falling apart first. It
Speaker 1: usually involves some kind of very painful, uncomfortable shit storm,
Speaker 1: but it's always for a reason, and you emerge out
Speaker 1: the other end like that's why that had to happen.
Speaker 1: It's also so interesting that you mentioned how that inner
Speaker 1: child constantly feeling like you had to prove something because
Speaker 1: of your otherness. In a very different context, I realized
Speaker 1: through therapy that. So it's interesting you said earlier that
Speaker 1: you don't know about the Asian community. I'm actually adopted.
Speaker 1: So I was born in an orphanage. When I was
Speaker 1: six months old, I moved here, been brought up by
Speaker 1: like Caucasian country bumpkins in Kippsland. But it's interesting that
Speaker 1: my constant burnout is because I have to prove that
Speaker 1: I was worthy of the opportunity to grow up here.
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting how often your otherness makes you
Speaker 1: feel like you have to earn extra to just keep
Speaker 1: up with you know, normal, Yes, and I think that
Speaker 1: feels a lot of us. But without therapy, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: know that that's what was leading you into kind of
Speaker 1: destructive or self annihilating tendencies.
Speaker 3: Therapy is the best, the best, and you know, it's
Speaker 3: really interesting.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much you know about this, but
Speaker 2: I've been learning a lot through a lease about like
Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma. And whilst you have been adopted, I'm sure
Speaker 2: that there is like an ancestral lineage that runs through you,
Speaker 2: that comes with a whole lot of trauma, you know,
Speaker 2: and when you come to a place that is, you know,
Speaker 2: a colonized country full of white people, of course it's
Speaker 2: going to be Even if you were, you know, raised
Speaker 2: by white people, you're still struggle with that intergenerational trauma.
Speaker 2: So wow, that's so fascinating. We need to talk about
Speaker 2: that when we see each other at Puffed Off because.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god on a podium.
Speaker 2: Yea, that makes me so much because I never realized
Speaker 2: how much intergenerational trauma and sort of internalized racism I
Speaker 2: had towards myself until I was sitting in a therapist's
Speaker 2: chair and he said to me, Denny, the reason why
Speaker 2: you only date white men is because you think that
Speaker 2: they're better than you.
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, whoa, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: know I cannot wait for ound next count up in
Speaker 1: real life. So then was it in that space of
Speaker 1: kind of breaking down to break through that then you
Speaker 1: came to this realization that you needed to come out again,
Speaker 1: because most people find coming out once traumatic enough, but
Speaker 1: to come out a second time again to family that
Speaker 1: you care about, to have already been through one coming out,
Speaker 1: but also in a time where this next coming out
Speaker 1: has involved new pronouns, Like it's a fundamental change to
Speaker 1: how you refer to yourself, to how other people relate
Speaker 1: to you. That has you know, you don't want to
Speaker 1: make a mistake. It's still quite a misunderstood, like a
Speaker 1: lot of us aren't. This isn't in my vernacular. So
Speaker 1: even I was like, oh my god, what if I
Speaker 1: accidentally say him? You know, it's a whole new world.
Speaker 1: How did you realize that this was the right time
Speaker 1: for you to make this, you know, next chapter in
Speaker 1: your identity?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: So, in a nutshell, I'm a firm believer that if
Speaker 2: the universe is holding something right in front of you,
Speaker 2: right in front of your nose, you can no longer
Speaker 2: ignore it. So, as I said to you earlier, I've
Speaker 2: known that I wasn't a boy, but I didn't want
Speaker 2: to be a girl necessarily. I've known that since I
Speaker 2: was three, so, but I never had the language. And
Speaker 2: then over the last five years, the term non binary has.
Speaker 3: Never been more you know, trending.
Speaker 2: Let's say, everyone's bloody talking about it, you know, the
Speaker 2: pronoun thing YadA, YadA, YadA. I started hearing these little things.
Speaker 2: I started being exposed to things. And it wasn't until
Speaker 2: Sam Smith came out.
Speaker 3: As binary that I read an article that they were.
Speaker 2: Interviewed for and everything that they said in that article
Speaker 2: it brought me close to tears because I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: that's exactly how I feel.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: But when I'm presented with something that really scares me,
Speaker 2: I ignore it. I did the same thing with the
Speaker 2: gay with the gay thing, so I was like, ignore, ignore,
Speaker 2: control or delete. Then then I could no longer control
Speaker 2: a delete. When six months later I met a non
Speaker 2: binary person for the first time in real life, and
Speaker 2: this was about two months before the pandemic began, and
Speaker 2: I mean as soon as they opened their mouth and
Speaker 2: started telling me about their experience, I.
Speaker 3: Internally broke down.
Speaker 2: I kept myself very composed, and then after that event,
Speaker 2: I said, Hey, would you mind if we exchange numbers
Speaker 2: because I just want to ask you a few things
Speaker 2: this week, and they said, yeah, call me, And as
Speaker 2: soon as I picked up the phone and called them
Speaker 2: that week, I burst into tears and I was like,
Speaker 2: I think I am you know what you are, And
Speaker 2: then we went into a lot down and the gift
Speaker 2: of lockdown. Yeah, But the gift of lockdown for me
Speaker 2: was two things, safety and time. So first and foremost,
Speaker 2: I had the safety of being in my home to
Speaker 2: be able to like dip my feet, play with makeup,
Speaker 2: where some things, I was kind of dressing the way
Speaker 2: I dressed now before that anyway around Geelong, which was
Speaker 2: getting a lot of interesting looks, and my parents were
Speaker 2: asking me a lot of questions, and my cousins were like,
Speaker 2: are you transgender? And it was all a bit of
Speaker 2: a talking point. When we're at home in lockdown, I
Speaker 2: could do whatever I wanted to, and I knew that
Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to really judge me other than
Speaker 2: my parents.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, Mama Macker, like, by the.
Speaker 2: Way, Mama really had some issues with it, So that
Speaker 2: was very confronting. And then the gift of time was
Speaker 2: that I suddenly had all the time in the world
Speaker 2: to watch all the documentaries, listen to all the podcasts,
Speaker 2: do my research. And once you really have all of
Speaker 2: the puzzle pieces and they come together, you can no
Speaker 2: longer hide them. And I found myself feeling the same
Speaker 2: way as I felt just before I came out as
Speaker 2: gay in that Literally I felt like it was going
Speaker 2: to explode and vomit out of my mouth.
Speaker 3: I had to get it off my chest.
Speaker 2: And the second I got off my chest, as hard
Speaker 2: as it was, everything changed, not only personally but also professionally,
Speaker 2: Like coming out of non binary just changed my life
Speaker 2: in every way, shape and form.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it has been one of the most heartwarming,
Speaker 1: beautiful things to watch, Like you had already had quite
Speaker 1: a profile and following before you came out, so for
Speaker 1: everyone to have gone through it with you and kind
Speaker 1: of be taken along for the ride rather than just
Speaker 1: meeting you, and you'd already come out and you already
Speaker 1: knew how you felt. I think seeing how difficult it
Speaker 1: has been, but also how much you've owned it and
Speaker 1: weaved it into the story has been so beautiful and
Speaker 1: I imagine has given a lot of other people who
Speaker 1: are quite confused about who they are permission to not
Speaker 1: be scared to investigate this, Like you're probably the person
Speaker 1: who you met who helped you for so many other people.
Speaker 1: Has your sexual inclination changed in that before you knew
Speaker 1: you liked boys people with boys, but has it changed
Speaker 1: to now people with penises.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me when I first came out as
Speaker 2: non binary, it's funny, so funny that you mentioned that,
Speaker 2: because one of the first questions that the people around
Speaker 2: me started asking was are you bisexual now?
Speaker 3: Or are you pan sexual now?
Speaker 2: And I was like, honeys, I think you're getting confused
Speaker 2: yet that's fine, and that's totally normal. By the way,
Speaker 2: my you know, my sexuality is still the same, like
Speaker 2: I have a dick, like other people who have dicks,
Speaker 2: whether those people are cis men or non binary trans people,
Speaker 2: as long as there's a penis involved.
Speaker 3: It's going to be good. Basically, Yeah, nice, That's.
Speaker 2: Kind of how I'm sexually identify. But I will say
Speaker 2: I've always been a little bit like we'll try anything once,
Speaker 2: like be a little bit fluid.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I had my first experience with a vagina like two
Speaker 2: years ago, and I never thought I would do that,
Speaker 2: and it was bloody beautiful.
Speaker 1: So you know, I heard about that. I heard that
Speaker 1: your dad was like, he was so proud.
Speaker 3: Of you, so bad.
Speaker 2: So never say never, But I will say that I am,
Speaker 2: you know, ninety nine point nine percent a raging homosexual
Speaker 2: and I love it.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, and I think this is why. I
Speaker 1: mean the fact that our sexuality is so much more fluid.
Speaker 1: There are terms now, like there are actual labels to
Speaker 1: describe things that didn't have a name before, which would
Speaker 1: have made it even more confusing. But I think for
Speaker 1: the you know, cis heterosexual person, it's overwhelming to have
Speaker 1: pant sexual, bisexual, non binary, trance, Like there's so many
Speaker 1: different terms now, and you don't want to offend anyone either,
Speaker 1: but you also want to. Like one thing you do
Speaker 1: really well is make everyone feel safe to ask questions
Speaker 1: so that they can further their education, rather than being
Speaker 1: like what if I say the wrong thing, I'm just
Speaker 1: not going to ask and that I won't know. Have
Speaker 1: you found it easy to suddenly get so many questions
Speaker 1: about sexuality? And do you get confused ever with your
Speaker 1: own pronouns? And how do you choose bathrooms? Like the
Speaker 1: practical things day to day?
Speaker 2: Okay, so first st up, listen, I get confused all
Speaker 2: the time. I fuck up my own pronouns all the time.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, all the time.
Speaker 2: I've got a handful of non binary friends and I
Speaker 2: often fuck up their pronouns as well.
Speaker 3: We are all human.
Speaker 2: My Dalen, And it's really a rewiring of our brains
Speaker 2: in many ways, even though you know, one of my
Speaker 2: go to answers to this question is we've actually been
Speaker 2: using they them, for example, in the singular our whole lives,
Speaker 2: We've just never been aware of it. So but it's
Speaker 2: just rewiring the context of this language in terms of
Speaker 2: the questions that I get asked. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 2: so happy to be able to teach people, as in
Speaker 2: when I'm learning them, you know. So when I first
Speaker 2: came out, I had so many questions for that first
Speaker 2: non binary person that I met, because I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: so am I still gay? Or am I now like
Speaker 2: pan sexual? Because I'm like genderlest what about people that
Speaker 2: are attracted to me? Do they have to be kind
Speaker 2: to be attracted to me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Is there a criteria?
Speaker 3: Do I give them a sale? Yeah? Totally so. And
Speaker 3: I remember they just said to me, Denny, babe, like,
Speaker 3: you can make up the rules as you go. There
Speaker 3: are no rules.
Speaker 2: You know, being gay is a huge part of your identity.
Speaker 2: And also even the term gay, you know, it refers
Speaker 2: to so many people. So yeah, the questions are just
Speaker 2: as daunting often as they are for me to you. However,
Speaker 2: my whole principle is that it's all about intention, and
Speaker 2: I can you can hear in someone's tone if the
Speaker 2: intention is pure and they genuinely want to know, or
Speaker 2: if they've genuinely made a mistake, we're good. Okay, We're
Speaker 2: absolutely fine. However, if you're going to be a bit
Speaker 2: of an asshole about it, that's a different story. But
Speaker 2: if you come to me with honesty and vulnerability and
Speaker 2: a desire to evolve, we're good.
Speaker 3: I don't care what you call me at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, you know, and honestly, if I'm honestly offended,
Speaker 3: I'll let you know.
Speaker 1: You'll tell it. Yeah. Yeah, have you found you? As
Speaker 1: you mentioned, there are some people who have who don't
Speaker 1: receive coming out as well. And yeah, I mean usually
Speaker 1: people who fundamentally in your life aren't the people who
Speaker 1: matter to you. But being as a kind of public figure,
Speaker 1: you become the target. I think of a lot of hate,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes there is a bit of self hatred
Speaker 1: along the way of when you do have different chapters
Speaker 1: of very identity, looking back at how you treated yourself
Speaker 1: before and then after, and how have you dealt with
Speaker 1: trolls externally and also those thoughts internally for yourself, and
Speaker 1: how does the Body Shop self Love campaign kind of
Speaker 1: feed into that in terms of teaching yourself to rewire
Speaker 1: those thoughts.
Speaker 2: Of course, I think what's so beautiful about that campaign
Speaker 2: was that it was completely about self love. It was
Speaker 2: an opportunity for the Body Shop to educate their audiences
Speaker 2: on probably I would say, the most important.
Speaker 3: Thing have in life, which is the relationship that we
Speaker 3: have with ourselves.
Speaker 2: Now, that's all well and good until someone is telling
Speaker 2: you to kill yourself on Instagram, you know. Or what's
Speaker 2: worse perhaps is when people are within your family your
Speaker 2: extended family, are disrespecting you and invalidating you to a
Speaker 2: point that you're like, how are we even related? So
Speaker 2: those moments can be really, really difficult. But then I
Speaker 2: instantly go back to the message of that campaign. You know,
Speaker 2: loving yourself is the single most important thing. When you
Speaker 2: go to bed at night and you wake up in
Speaker 2: the morning, you wake up with you first and foremost.
Speaker 2: Whether you have someone next to you or not is irrelevant.
Speaker 2: And if you don't like who you are first firstly,
Speaker 2: because you know, it's liking someone and loving someone is
Speaker 2: very different. You can love your boyfriend just say, but
Speaker 2: you might not like him that week because he's being
Speaker 2: head right.
Speaker 3: If you don't genuinely love yourself, until you truly love yourself,
Speaker 3: I don't believe that you can love someone else. And
Speaker 3: Rippul says that at the end of every episode of
Speaker 3: diag Race. Yeah for a reason, and it's so cliche,
Speaker 3: but I love that quote because I do believe that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, look, navigating the trolling and the hate.
Speaker 2: It hurt the first few times. It still hurts occasionally.
Speaker 2: It hurts mostly when it comes from women, because it
Speaker 2: often does come from women. When it comes from guys,
Speaker 2: I'm like, take a hike, mate, like you're just being
Speaker 2: a dickhead. But when it comes from women, that does
Speaker 2: really upset me. Because women, to me are the best
Speaker 2: gender in the world. They're the most elite species. I
Speaker 2: just adore them so much, so that does hurt sometimes,
Speaker 2: But I always look at the bigger picture. I think, Okay,
Speaker 2: why is this person Because you know, hurt people hurt people.
Speaker 3: So oh my gosh, this person is hurt and.
Speaker 2: They're hurting me because they own hurt. So let's try
Speaker 2: unpack that hurt and how can we kind of reframe
Speaker 2: this and take this as a lesson. That's kind of
Speaker 2: how I know I get it now because I don't
Speaker 2: have the energy or the desire to be curled up
Speaker 2: into the fetal position because some wanker thinks that they
Speaker 2: control me on the internet, like I don't have time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, I love it so much. Such
Speaker 1: a good attitude and the only way you can survive
Speaker 1: as well, because they're I think social is such a
Speaker 1: blessing and a burden. But if you take the good
Speaker 1: and learn how to cope with the bad, it can
Speaker 1: be such a powerful platform because that's how you're changing
Speaker 1: people's lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's the new media. It's the new
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Growing up, I had Oprah Winfrey who I was obsessed with,
Speaker 2: and I would watch her on the Telly every day.
Speaker 2: Instagram is the new form of that, It's like, and
Speaker 2: now we have so many Oprahs who are constantly inspiring
Speaker 2: us on the daily, you know. So yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: a tremendous tool when it's used with love, empathy, and kindness.
Speaker 1: Then do you find, because you have become such an
Speaker 1: important role model in this area, that you're getting pulled
Speaker 1: in so many different directions, and your career is going
Speaker 1: so well that like the constant connection to your platforms
Speaker 1: and like burnout is such a real thing, and also
Speaker 1: continuing with those like inner child feelings of having to
Speaker 1: still prove yourself. How do you manage burnout and like
Speaker 1: turning off your devices and having some time to yourself
Speaker 1: if you ever do that?
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm getting better at it. So look, I'm
Speaker 2: in aries, So I'm all or nothing?
Speaker 3: Are you as well? Yeah? When's your birthday?
Speaker 1: Twenty fourth of March?
Speaker 3: I was April first?
Speaker 1: Oh oh my god. But still that's my my husband's
Speaker 1: dad's birthday is April first, amazing?
Speaker 3: So okay, well then you're very well aware.
Speaker 2: I am, you know, all or nothing. Am either all
Speaker 2: in or I'm not in. There's no gray area with me.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to my work and socials and
Speaker 2: kind of keeping on top of it, you know, the
Speaker 2: first probably twelve months of it, like I was on
Speaker 2: top of it, responding to every comment every day and
Speaker 2: giving every single thing I could, and I found that
Speaker 2: it left my tank very empty in times of like wait,
Speaker 2: who am I?
Speaker 3: Where am I? Like? What's going on? What day is
Speaker 3: it today. Oh did I just miss my best friend's birthday? Shit,
Speaker 3: I better call it.
Speaker 2: You know, at the start of the year, I was
Speaker 2: really fortunate in that I was traveling a lot, like
Speaker 2: I was in Sydney every other week for work, and
Speaker 2: life just became like getting on a plane, checking into
Speaker 2: a hotel, being on set do it again the next day,
Speaker 2: which God wouldn't mind that now after fucking four months lockdown,
Speaker 2: you know again first world problems, but it can become
Speaker 2: very draining emotionally and energetically. And I'm an EmPATH, so
Speaker 2: I really like energies everything to me. So now I
Speaker 2: think I've really started to set some boundaries for the
Speaker 2: last probably three months especially, I just realized that, you know,
Speaker 2: unless I have a boundary, and I unless I can
Speaker 2: feel my tank first, I'm not going to be able
Speaker 2: to feel anyone's tank. So actually, this week, for like
Speaker 2: a week straight, I've like not been looking at my
Speaker 2: socials after like ten pm, nine pm, which I know
Speaker 2: is still pretty late, but I'm late. I'm an idol generally,
Speaker 2: so you know, I remember thinking, well, my parents own
Speaker 2: a cafe and have trading hours, so why shouldn't I
Speaker 2: have my own trading hours, or if I need a
Speaker 2: day off, I'm just I just quickly say, hey, guys,
Speaker 2: I just need a day off, like I need my
Speaker 2: mind to switch off today. Catch you on the flip side.
Speaker 2: I'll come back tomorrow and I'll be even sparklier. But
Speaker 2: today I just don't feel very sparkly. So it's kind
Speaker 2: of a constant thing to navigate. But I do think
Speaker 2: that you can never take that working class, you know,
Speaker 2: immigrant mentality, that hard work ethic that my parents instilled
Speaker 2: in me. I don't think that will ever really go away,
Speaker 2: and I don't think I really wanted to, to be honest, I.
Speaker 1: Really love that it's been such a big part of
Speaker 1: your identity. But also think that air is in particular
Speaker 1: need boundaries. So even having like they can be very
Speaker 1: different and you can still work much longer hours than
Speaker 1: the average person, but having some kind of boundary is
Speaker 1: important because you are sparking. Yeah, you can't be sparkly
Speaker 1: all the time, which leads really nicely to the last section,
Speaker 1: which is playta, and that's where we let the inner
Speaker 1: child back out. And I think even if you love
Speaker 1: your job and it doesn't feel like work, just to
Speaker 1: keep creating I mean a cosmo. You'll know more than
Speaker 1: anyone that if you don't get distance from your work
Speaker 1: every now and then and do something that's completely unrelated,
Speaker 1: you can't be good at it because you're not getting perspective.
Speaker 1: So how do you play? What are the things you
Speaker 1: do that make you forget what time it is? That
Speaker 1: have no like productive goal that aren't success driven, but
Speaker 1: like Netflix or like dancing, Like what do you do
Speaker 1: for fun?
Speaker 3: So in lockdown world, it's yet nothing, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: no no. That have my things?
Speaker 2: In lockdown world, it's spending a night or you know,
Speaker 2: multiple nights a week on the couch with my mum,
Speaker 2: tub of ice cream, The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills,
Speaker 2: or the Keeping Up with the Kadashians when it was
Speaker 2: a crazy Yeah, REALITTV is my favorite form of escape.
Speaker 2: And doing that in the company of my mother and
Speaker 2: ice cream heaven in a post Lockdown world. In a
Speaker 2: pre Lockdown world, it's you know, jumping in the car
Speaker 2: and going to the beach. Most comfortable when I'm in water,
Speaker 2: most at peace when I'm in a body of water. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I love a swim. I really love like a
Speaker 2: cottage getaway. I was doing that a lot. Actually, I
Speaker 2: would just jump in a car, you know, rent to Airbnb,
Speaker 2: go somewhere by myself. I love my own company. I
Speaker 2: can't tell you how much I'm an introvert in that way.
Speaker 2: So being alone in like a hotel room or something,
Speaker 2: or in like a little country town somewhere heaven dancing
Speaker 2: is so.
Speaker 3: Bloody good for the soul, Like bring on the puffed
Speaker 3: off nights.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to go together when when it.
Speaker 3: Finally wait for that.
Speaker 2: And travel, I mean, it's probably the thing I miss
Speaker 2: the most. Travel and music are the things that generally
Speaker 2: fill my cup. So if I can sit in a
Speaker 2: car and like go somewhere, even if it's down the road,
Speaker 2: whilst listening to my favorite music, like music is free therapy.
Speaker 2: I dance every morning while I make coffee or while
Speaker 2: I'm in the shower, and it's just the best.
Speaker 1: My god, me too. I sign up for Steazy. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've tried Steeze yet. So good, so
Speaker 1: so good good, Oh my god, the corry is amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know I need to spend some more time
Speaker 3: on that.
Speaker 1: It's so good. But I'll put like because my husband
Speaker 1: like usually trying to work or whatever. I'll listen to
Speaker 1: it in my headphone, so all he can hear is
Speaker 1: just like my footsteps and me going. It's like I
Speaker 1: got near the music, but it's like you're absolutely losing
Speaker 1: the plot by yourself. I have the greatest time.
Speaker 3: I'm seizing my ya exactly right.
Speaker 1: Second last question, Three interesting things about you that don't
Speaker 1: normally come up in conversation.
Speaker 3: Okay, cool. So One, I have a photographic memory.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I have had ever since I was little,
Speaker 2: so it's really coming handy, which is great.
Speaker 3: I love it so much. Two I have five taboos,
Speaker 3: which me too. Yeah, five tatoos. We love that. My gosh,
Speaker 3: we're really aries. Tweel we're the same, I know as well.
Speaker 1: Where are yours?
Speaker 3: So I've got wrists, that was my first one gorgeous.
Speaker 2: Got one of my forearm, one of my bicep, one
Speaker 2: of my neck, and one of my shoulder. Way. And
Speaker 2: then the third thing is that I oh, so this
Speaker 2: is actually not a commonly known thing and I sort
Speaker 2: of have to explain this on my socials this week.
Speaker 2: So for the comfort of ease, I always introduced myself
Speaker 2: as serbian because my parents were both Well, my mum
Speaker 2: was born in Croatia actually, and back then it was
Speaker 2: called Yugoslavia, but they grew up in Serbia. But what
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know is that my lineage
Speaker 2: and my ancestry is actually Romany Gypsy via the northern
Speaker 2: Indian region of Punjab. However, we only found out about
Speaker 2: the Indian and Romany Gypsy kind of part recently. So
Speaker 2: up until the last thirty two years of my life,
Speaker 2: we identified and sort of, you know, it would very
Speaker 2: proudly call ourselves Serb Romanian because we speak Romanian in
Speaker 2: my house.
Speaker 3: What me, Okay, this is fucked up. Okay, it's so
Speaker 3: what the Actually that's okay, So listen up.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting that you just said that, because in
Speaker 2: my family and my community, so it's probably about two
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty of us now give or take a
Speaker 2: few deaths that we've had in our family in Geelong, right,
Speaker 2: and that's our Serb Romanian community. So the Romanian that
Speaker 2: we speak is a very specific dialect of Romanian, so
Speaker 2: that don't actually speak it in Romania. So we were
Speaker 2: always very yeah, and also we're very dark skin so
Speaker 2: my whole family a lot of my uncles look Indian.
Speaker 2: I often get called Indian or Turkish or Lebanese, Middle
Speaker 2: East and whatever. I never get picked to serve. So
Speaker 2: growing up we were so confused.
Speaker 3: We were like, why are we Romanian? Yet? You know
Speaker 3: we've met people who are.
Speaker 2: Romanian that don't speak the same dialect as us. I
Speaker 2: underd exactly what you just said, but we would say
Speaker 2: that in a different dialect. So when I was very young,
Speaker 2: one of our great uncles said, our ancestrists from India.
Speaker 3: I've done some research. I know this for a fact,
Speaker 3: and everyone kind of laughed at him.
Speaker 2: They were like, no, we don't believe you, Like how
Speaker 2: do you get from India to Romania anyway? So I
Speaker 2: went to India for my thirtieth birthday, and when I
Speaker 2: tell you, I felt like I was coming home. I
Speaker 2: called my mum in tears because I was like, Mom,
Speaker 2: this is where we're from. Like everyone who looks like us,
Speaker 2: everyone he thinks I'm Indian. Every time I would go
Speaker 2: into a shop, no one thought I was a tourist.
Speaker 2: The warmth I feel from these people is wild. So
Speaker 2: we did a DNA ancestry test in Lockdown and it
Speaker 2: came back as the Punjab region and more specifically the
Speaker 2: Romany Gypsy people.
Speaker 3: Some people call them Romani travelers.
Speaker 2: So I follow all these Instagram accounts now of the
Speaker 2: Romany people and I'm like, oh my god, they look
Speaker 2: like my family.
Speaker 3: So we finally actually know where we're from.
Speaker 2: So I'm fluent in Serbian, Romanian and Macedonian Ish, a
Speaker 2: little bit german Ish. So like, there's lots of multiculturalism
Speaker 2: in this in this household, and I don't think I
Speaker 2: talk about it enough, and I need to talk about
Speaker 2: it more because I love it so much.
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. So I love languages, like I
Speaker 1: studied three languages at UNI. Everywhere I go, I try
Speaker 1: and learn the language. We went to Rwanda, I picked
Speaker 1: up Kina Orwanda, like I just they're my favorite. That's
Speaker 1: my ya is like learning the languages love because I
Speaker 1: think you when you understand the way that people think,
Speaker 1: like language describes a thought process, it helps you understand
Speaker 1: their culture. And so anyone that speaks another language and like,
Speaker 1: teach me everything. I love that my ex was Romanian.
Speaker 1: But because I speak French fluently and it's a I
Speaker 1: didn't know it was a Latin language. Yes, I could
Speaker 1: pick it up really quickly because the grammar's the same
Speaker 1: and like you just replace certain bits. So I started
Speaker 1: to like speak it really conversationally with him. But then
Speaker 1: when we broke up, like twelve thirteen years ago, I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm never going to use Romanian again, like
Speaker 1: of all the time, and I just I have not
Speaker 1: said that phrase I reckon in a decade. But then
Speaker 1: I was like, like what else do I I just
Speaker 1: like remember random phrases every now and then. And I
Speaker 1: was in Paris studying. I did part of my law
Speaker 1: degree in Paris, and in Paris, well, they were sitting
Speaker 1: at like there were these two ladies sitting at a
Speaker 1: table next to me, bitching about everyone in the restaurant,
Speaker 1: like talking about me, talking about everyone and like this
Speaker 1: little Asian girl in France. I'm sure that the last
Speaker 1: thing they ever thought was that I could speak Romanian.
Speaker 1: And at the end, I was just like, oh bye,
Speaker 1: like I said something in Romania and they were like what.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love that moment. I've done that
Speaker 3: many times in my life.
Speaker 1: It's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because sir was my first language. I read, write, speak,
Speaker 2: dance whatever. Romanian, I can understand it fluently and I
Speaker 2: can speak it back to say, like my grandma, she
Speaker 2: speaks at the most in our family, like good like
Speaker 2: fifty to sixty percent.
Speaker 3: But I really need to flex my.
Speaker 2: Romanian because when I have I want to make sure
Speaker 2: that they know how to speak Romanian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's your dialect? Is it similar?
Speaker 3: So very similar, but it's more slangy.
Speaker 2: It's more like villain, which makes sense because we've moved
Speaker 2: around from India. So basically from what we've gathered from
Speaker 2: that report was that from India we had a migration
Speaker 2: moment to Northern Africa and then so in Egypt. Then
Speaker 2: from Egypt we made our way up to the Middle
Speaker 2: East and through the Arabia, Lebanon, those sorts of places,
Speaker 2: and then we landed in Serbia.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. So we have a bit of a
Speaker 3: real mixed bag kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And I've got members of my family that can actually
Speaker 2: speak and we call it Gypsy, so they can actually
Speaker 2: speak Gypsy.
Speaker 3: And we love like Remenie gypsy music.
Speaker 2: And yes, I've got uncles in Serbia who like their
Speaker 2: musicians and they sing in Gypsy.
Speaker 3: It's amazing, it's so cool.
Speaker 1: Oh, you definitely need to talk about them. More's fascinating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: very last question, what's your favorite quote?
Speaker 2: So this is the only question that I looked at
Speaker 2: on the questions that you sent me, because I generally
Speaker 2: don't like to just I just go off the cuff normally,
Speaker 2: but I wanted to give you a good one. So
Speaker 2: when I was working at Cosmo, my editor Bronwan Makhan
Speaker 2: was counseling me to my really really big breakup and
Speaker 2: she said to me, Denny, in the end, it will
Speaker 2: all be okay.
Speaker 3: If it's not okay, it's not the end. I love
Speaker 3: that one and I'll never forget it.
Speaker 2: And she's absolutely right, because sometimes life can be so cloudy,
Speaker 2: such a shit storm, and you just think, for fuck's sake,
Speaker 2: give me a break, give me a break, Hanny, and
Speaker 2: then you go, it's okay, it's not the end.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be okay. In the end, it's not the end.
Speaker 3: Just keep going.
Speaker 1: My gosh, that is so beautiful and what an amazing
Speaker 1: way to end, Denny, Thank you so much. This has
Speaker 1: been such a joy hours.
Speaker 2: That has been the best conversation I've had, without a doubt,
Speaker 2: all months. Oh my gosh, You're a fucking delight and
Speaker 2: you just lose empathy, and you provide such a safe
Speaker 2: space to converse and it's like a pleasure to talk
Speaker 2: to you genuinely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are so kind. I've loved this so much,
Speaker 1: and I when we believe that we need a reunion
Speaker 1: at point.
Speaker 3: Your phone number will lop in calm, We'll make this ship.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you imagine it'll be the biggest
Speaker 1: blowout of all time?
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, love so much, have a beautiful week.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I absolutely love how Denny allows us
Speaker 1: all to explore new language and concepts without feeling judged
Speaker 1: or uncomfortable and create such a safe place for us
Speaker 1: to learn. They inspire me so much to continually honor
Speaker 1: who I really am and block out the noise or
Speaker 1: pressure that pulls us in all kinds of directions. What
Speaker 1: an incredible role model and wonderful human being who is
Speaker 1: such a joy to chat with. I highly recommend you
Speaker 1: follow their page for daily smiles and inspiration. The dancing
Speaker 1: videos are incredible and if you enjoyed this, please do
Speaker 1: share the episode tagging at Style by Denny and Us
Speaker 1: with any takeaways or reflections. It means the world when
Speaker 1: Theihoborhood helps thank our guests for so generously giving us
Speaker 1: their time. Next up is our third anniversary Q and
Speaker 1: a episode with some of your voices featuring recording your
Speaker 1: own questions that I'm so thrilled about and the questions
Speaker 1: have been such a good reflection starter, so I cannot
Speaker 1: wait to share that episode with you next week. I
Speaker 1: hope you're all having a wonderful week and just seizing
Speaker 1: your ya