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Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by the Body Shops

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Speaker 1: youth activist series.

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Speaker 2: All those moments are just really the want of a

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Speaker 2: better term, seizing that opportunity. If there is someone in

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Speaker 2: front of you, introduce yourself, the worst they can do

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Speaker 2: is look at you and like say no for me.

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Speaker 2: The magic source of success in any field actually is

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Speaker 2: to be the smartest person in the room, but also

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Speaker 2: the kindest person in the room. You know, unless I

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Speaker 2: have a boundary, unless I can feel my tank first,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to feel anyone's tank.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore

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Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day

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Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 1: fanentrepreneurs wapped the suits and heels to co found Macha

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Speaker 1: Maiden and Macha milk Bar Cza is a series of

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Speaker 1: conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the

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Speaker 1: self doubt, challenge, joy, and fulfillment along the way. You

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Speaker 1: all know. One of the main facets of the Cza

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Speaker 1: philosophy is separating what you do from who you are,

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Speaker 1: but naturally our conversations still sometimes touch on the doing,

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Speaker 1: because work is often inextricably related with finding your overall

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Speaker 1: purpose or passion in life. Today's guest, however, has faced

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Speaker 1: perhaps more upheaval in relation to the being, not so

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Speaker 1: much in finding what you love, but in finding who

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Speaker 1: you are. Growing up as a Jehovah's witness to hard

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Speaker 1: working immigrant parents in regional Victoria, Denny Tudorovich's environment didn't

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Speaker 1: exactly foster the language or conversations that allowed them to

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Speaker 1: fully articulate their identity until almost their twenties, But having

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Speaker 1: come out not once but twice since then, along with

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Speaker 1: all the torment and confusion that accompanies such big shifts

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Speaker 1: in identity, Denny is now living their absolute best life

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Speaker 1: as a non binary role model, encouraging us all to

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Speaker 1: honor who we are, as well as gently and patiently

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Speaker 1: helping us learn more about the language and landscape of

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Speaker 1: gender identity and sexuality. For someone who began their life

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Speaker 1: feeling like they didn't have the language to express what

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Speaker 1: they really felt, Denny is now one of the most

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Speaker 1: eloquent and articulate guests I've had the pleasure of speaking with,

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Speaker 1: sharing so openly about even the most awkward elements of

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Speaker 1: gender fluidity, i e. We learn how they pick which

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Speaker 1: bathrooms to use sexuality aside. Denny has also had an

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Speaker 1: incredible path Yay, working their way from a shit kicking

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Speaker 1: intern all the way up to fashion editor at Cosmopolitan

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Speaker 1: Magazine right up until its closure in twenty eighteen. Their

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Speaker 1: insights are equally as powerful in dealing with the unexpected

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Speaker 1: loss of dreams, embracing a giant pivot to move back

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Speaker 1: to Geelong and embrace the freelance world wholeheartedly, including becoming

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Speaker 1: the face of the Body Shop's incredible self Love campaign,

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Speaker 1: a company you know I adore. Working with their energy

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Speaker 1: and passion for equality and kindness is so infectious and energizing,

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Speaker 1: and the gold sparkles I turned up to recording barely

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Speaker 1: do Denny justice. I hope that Denny brings your heart

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Speaker 1: the warmth that mine was filled with the whole way through.

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Speaker 1: Danny Todorovich, welcome to Seize the AA.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor

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Speaker 3: to be here.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited. I was literally just saying before

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Speaker 1: we started recording that we have been at Pufftuff together before.

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Speaker 1: We didn't meet properly, but we're best internet friends to

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Speaker 1: the point where I've even turned up today in gold

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Speaker 1: Sparkles in your honor, yes, but in all seriousness, I'm

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Speaker 1: such a big admirer and it's a real honor to

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Speaker 1: have you on the show today.

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Speaker 3: Right back at you.

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Speaker 2: I think it's so we're in such a unique time

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Speaker 2: at the moment because of Lockdown, that our digital admirations

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Speaker 2: and friendships they feel so visceral because it's all we

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Speaker 2: have at the moment. So I've made some of my

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Speaker 2: best friends over the last two years in Lockdown that

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Speaker 2: I've not even had a chance to actually hang out

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Speaker 2: with properly.

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Speaker 3: Irl. So yeah, the love is very mutual, my Dalin.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you are the sweetest and I love that you

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Speaker 1: use the word viseral. I feel like I just want

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Speaker 1: to give you a hug, but I don't know what

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Speaker 1: that actually feels like. But I feel like I miss

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Speaker 1: it anyway. Well, before we jump into your path ya

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Speaker 1: as I call it, I love to start by asking

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Speaker 1: everyone what the most down to earth thing is about them,

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Speaker 1: to break through what is really often a quite glossy

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Speaker 1: kind of service level identity is perceived through the media

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Speaker 1: or social media. And you have such an incredible story,

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Speaker 1: I mean, very hugely coveted positions to your name. You

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Speaker 1: are such a great pillar of society that you know,

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Speaker 1: we all admire you so much, so it can be

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Speaker 1: very easy to forget that you're a normal human who

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Speaker 1: like takes out the b and like, I love your

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Speaker 1: beautiful mom. She's the absolute greatest. You know, what is

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Speaker 1: something just really normal about you?

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Speaker 2: I think that's firstly, thank you, that's incredibly flattering. I

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Speaker 2: think it's really interesting that you bring this up because

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Speaker 2: we were just talking about this at dinner last night,

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Speaker 2: my parents and I was talking about Kim Kardashian and

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Speaker 2: her SNL performance or hosting her hosting gig, and I said,

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Speaker 2: the thing that I love most about Kim is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, she's the most famous woman in the world,

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Speaker 2: yet the girls just a down to earth, sweet valley

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Speaker 2: girl from Calabasas like still is to this day, and

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Speaker 2: I've followed her since season one, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: why people like her. And then we were kind of

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Speaker 2: talking about what can happen when you get sort.

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Speaker 3: Of thrust into the public arena.

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Speaker 2: First and foremost, I do not consider myself in that

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Speaker 2: vein whatsoever. Like someone messaged me on Instagram the other

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Speaker 2: day and said, you should be on I'm a celebrity,

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Speaker 2: Get me out of here, and I was like, why

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Speaker 2: would I be on that show. I'm not a celebrity.

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Speaker 2: I'm certainely aware of like people's perceptions maybe of where

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Speaker 2: I sit in that arena of you know, digital creators.

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Speaker 2: But I'm just Denny from Geelong, and I really mean that,

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Speaker 2: like it's literally just for me. I will always just be,

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Speaker 2: you know, a little ethnic kid from g Town who

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Speaker 2: went to a public school, you know, the son of

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Speaker 2: two migrant parents. My mum still yells at me when

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Speaker 2: I don't make my bed properly, like it's very normal

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Speaker 2: in this house. My parents do not treat me like

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Speaker 2: I should be on I'm a celebrity, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think of myself as that way. And I think that

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Speaker 2: on a perhaps a bit more of a deeper, sort

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Speaker 2: of more spiritual level. I think whenever our life is

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Speaker 2: dictated by our ego voice, that's when shit gets really dangerous.

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Speaker 2: And that's when people get just too big for their boots,

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Speaker 2: and that they forget who they are and they forget

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Speaker 2: their roots. So for me, I always, at all costs

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Speaker 2: anytime I get a smidgy of ego voice, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: see you later, honey, we don't need you here.

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Speaker 1: I think that's another reason why people are so drawn

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Speaker 1: to you, as you're such an amazing role model for

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Speaker 1: so many important messages of identity and self love and acceptance.

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Speaker 1: But also you've got and such a huge audience, but

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Speaker 1: stayed just Danny from Gtown, and you know, you spend

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Speaker 1: so much time with your beautiful family and even watching

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Speaker 1: your incredible dancing videos. They just make my life. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like a big keypop dancer, so I just get

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Speaker 1: so excited. But I also love that your bins are

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Speaker 1: in line along the fence in the background. I'm like, yes, yes, Denny.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, like that's so funny that

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Speaker 2: you should notice that because the bins and the green

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Speaker 2: plastic chair are the they're the MVPs of those videos,

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Speaker 2: and I remember when I first started making them, someone

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Speaker 2: said to me, why don't you tidy up the background

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Speaker 2: a bit more?

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Speaker 3: And I was like, but why would.

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Speaker 2: I Like, I'm not j Lo, this is not a

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Speaker 2: you know, this is not a VMA performance. I'm just

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Speaker 2: dancing my backyard. So yeah, I said, we keep it

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Speaker 2: real here. I don't take the bins out. My dad does,

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Speaker 2: and he always gets cranky at me because of my

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Speaker 2: acrylic nows. I'm like, sorry, Dad, I can't take the

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Speaker 2: bins out, but you know, we keep it real here, very.

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Speaker 3: Really this house.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I like. It's such a weird question.

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Speaker 1: People find it quite jarring at the beginning, like how

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Speaker 1: you even describe what's down to earth about you? But

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Speaker 1: I also love starting with it because then, like everything

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Speaker 1: else that comes afterwards, people walk into your life at

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Speaker 1: this chapter. Often it's on the cover of a magazine

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Speaker 1: or as the face of a campaign, and it's so

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Speaker 1: easy to detach from like you're just a normal person.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got parents, you live in the suburbs,

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Speaker 1: you have bins that you've got to take out, and like,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I love about you is also

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Speaker 1: how beautifully you navigate topics that are new in conversation

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Speaker 1: in society that are sometimes awkward or difficult. But I

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Speaker 1: was listening to you on Mia Friedman's podcast recently and

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Speaker 1: the way that she had like genuine questions about once

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Speaker 1: you've come out as non binary, how do you deal

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Speaker 1: with restrooms? Do you change depending on which energy is

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Speaker 1: it feminine or masculine? And how you were just like, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I walk into the wrong one and

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Speaker 1: I'm either chatting with girls over the basin or I'm

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Speaker 1: standing at a urinal in a skirt, But I like

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Speaker 1: the dick. I mean, what can I say? I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is the energy we all need.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad to feel that way. You feel that way.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's one of the most overused

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Speaker 2: words on the internet, but I can't stress enough how

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Speaker 2: important it is just to live authentically, and then that

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Speaker 2: should really resonate into everything that you do, whether you're

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Speaker 2: a cleaner like my parents work for a decade, or

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Speaker 2: whether you're Kim Kardashian. Authenticity will get you everywhere. And

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Speaker 2: I just don't believe in existing in any other way.

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Speaker 1: And this is why we all adore you so much,

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Speaker 1: Denny Balan, So you're way to you take us back

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Speaker 1: to very young Denny, growing up in Gtown. What were

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Speaker 1: you like as a kid. I think it's so important

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Speaker 1: to trace through all the chapters of people's lives before

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Speaker 1: the one that we meet them in, particularly because I

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Speaker 1: don't think we give enough airtime to how much we

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Speaker 1: all lose direction along the way. Like now, your values

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Speaker 1: and your message are so clear, and you have such

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Speaker 1: a sense of purpose around how to communicate them, but

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Speaker 1: I know there are many chapters beforehand of you know,

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Speaker 1: like torment and challenge to get there and figure out

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Speaker 1: who you are. And you know a lot of people

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Speaker 1: might not know that you were Jehovah's witness from ten

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Speaker 1: to eighteen, and that carries with it a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of challenge. So talk us through that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I think first and foremost the

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Speaker 2: words you were looking for there is trauma. And whilst

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Speaker 2: my childhood and I mean my whole life really has

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Speaker 2: been filled with many layers of trauma, My childhood was

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Speaker 2: pretty idyllic, Like mom and Dad are legends. They had

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Speaker 2: me when they were twenty one, so we've always been

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Speaker 2: very close.

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Speaker 3: We have like a very.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that were babies having babies, but that was very

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Speaker 2: normal in that decade.

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Speaker 3: And also it's very normal in ethnic communities.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure what it's like in the Asian community,

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Speaker 2: but in the ethnic community, like if you're a wog mate,

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Speaker 2: you're having babies as soon as you can, as soon

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Speaker 2: as you're virtile. Okay them outsis. So Mom had me

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Speaker 2: at twenty one, and she was just you know, I

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Speaker 2: was her little best friend and she was mine and

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Speaker 2: she still is to this day. So as a kid,

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Speaker 2: it was lots of uncles and aunties and you know,

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Speaker 2: cousins and grandma's and everyone's a grandma in you know,

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Speaker 2: Serbian community, you respect everyone as if they're literally your

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Speaker 2: immediate family. And our house was kind of like Grand

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Speaker 2: Central Station. So everyone would always come.

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Speaker 3: To our house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were the house that like hosted weekend parties

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Speaker 2: and Monopoly. I remember my uncles and artist used to

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Speaker 2: play Monopoly till like four in the morning, and you know,

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Speaker 2: just be like drinking and like smoking SIGs and just

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Speaker 2: sitting there like proper ethnic humans.

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Speaker 3: And I would just sit there like watching.

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Speaker 2: Them in all being like, oh my gosh, I'm so

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Speaker 2: lucky to live in this community that I'm never alone,

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Speaker 2: but then that side saddled with always feeling tremendously alone

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Speaker 2: in my feelings and my identity. So I had this

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Speaker 2: really like, you know, robust community around me, but I

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Speaker 2: had no one to talk to about how I really felt.

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Speaker 2: So it was my whole life actually is very has

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Speaker 2: been about duality. If I was to use a word

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Speaker 2: to describe my life, it's duality because you know, on

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Speaker 2: one hand, you have this very creative, always dancing in

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Speaker 2: front of the tally, always putting on a show when

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Speaker 2: family would come over, person versus then this really quite introverted, anxious, overthinker,

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Speaker 2: hypervigilant person. So there was constantly that. So I'd go

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Speaker 2: to school get super bullied, that I'd come home and

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Speaker 2: I'd have my mum there and you know, she's my bestie,

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Speaker 2: and we'd sit down and watch days of our lives and.

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Speaker 3: You know, talk like adults.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was real dichotomy growing up. But I

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Speaker 2: have nothing but fond memories of my childhood. The good

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Speaker 2: will always outweigh the bad with my childhood.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's really beautiful, And I think something that's really

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Speaker 1: I think probably resonating with so many people about your

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Speaker 1: whole journey is knowing certain aspects of your identity before

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Speaker 1: you could even Like you were four, I think when

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Speaker 1: you first started to really think about sexuality and gender

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Speaker 1: and well before you even had the words to articulate

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Speaker 1: what that meant. And for you it's been in sexuality,

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Speaker 1: but for other people it might be in Korea or

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Speaker 1: other kind of you know, inclination. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: us spend a lot of our lives shedding the layers

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Speaker 1: of hiding who we are and figuring out, you know,

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Speaker 1: what's really underneath. So it's fascinating to me that it

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Speaker 1: started from so young for you, and it then took

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Speaker 1: you until you know, four weeks before your nineteenth birthday,

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Speaker 1: before your first coming.

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Speaker 3: Out, you know, done your research.

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Speaker 1: It's the ex lawyer in me.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And in the meantime, I mean you were also trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what you were going to do in

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Speaker 1: life and what your purpose was, so fashion studies at

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Speaker 1: the Paris Fashion Institute, then starting at Maya, Like, how

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Speaker 1: did that coming of age teenage to sort of starting

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Speaker 1: your career time work out for you? As it was

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Speaker 1: starting to become more like you knew how to articulate

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Speaker 1: what you were feeling, and then to a religious immigrant

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Speaker 1: family breaking the news.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So.

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Speaker 2: I mean hypervigilants and a sense of self awareness is

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Speaker 2: I think something that's very innate to people because you're

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Speaker 2: constantly analyzing how you feel because it's so different to

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Speaker 2: what you see around you. So as a teenager, I said, oh, sorry,

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Speaker 2: like you said, I knew I was gay from as

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Speaker 2: early as four. I knew I wasn't as a boy

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Speaker 2: from as early as three. I just didn't have the

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Speaker 2: language for that one. Yeah, from as early as three.

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Speaker 2: But I yeah, but the gay thing, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: luckily I grew up in a time where there was

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Speaker 2: language to articulate how I felt sexually, So navigating how

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Speaker 2: to come out was really hard because it's honestly, I

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Speaker 2: remember sitting in church, babe and thinking, you will never

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Speaker 2: come out like you.

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Speaker 3: Just that will never be an option.

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Speaker 2: And I would crumble because we've got to church three

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Speaker 2: times a week, we would drawknock twice a week and generally,

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Speaker 2: if not once a week, and at least so being

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Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witness is a lifestyle.

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Speaker 3: It's the same as being.

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Speaker 2: You know, a scientologist, a Muslim, any of those religions

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Speaker 2: that are your life.

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Speaker 3: That's what being a j Dub was like.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I you just called it a Jada. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: day's amazing, Yeah, so much.

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Speaker 2: I really resonate with stories when I hear these stories

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Speaker 2: like I just recently watched My Unorthodox Life, you know,

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Speaker 2: and when I hear these stories of people coming out

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Speaker 2: of these very lifestyle based religions, you know, being a

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Speaker 2: Jehovah's witness has been referred to by some of my

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Speaker 2: friends as like a little bit cult adjacent. And whilst

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Speaker 2: I will never jump on Mike and like bash that religion,

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Speaker 2: I have nothing but respect for people's faith. It's really

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Speaker 2: insidious in that it creeps into your every decision because

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Speaker 2: you're first and.

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Speaker 3: Foremost, you're putting God's will first.

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Speaker 2: And if you're a little gay kid at church like

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Speaker 2: fantasizing about I don't know your science teacher, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: fly down so well with old made upstairs. So it

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Speaker 2: was really tricky for me to naviget that. But when

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Speaker 2: I got to nineteen, I was like, I can't do

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Speaker 2: it anymore. I will either come out or end my life.

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Speaker 2: And it was one or the other, and you know,

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Speaker 2: life is too precious, so it was difficult. But then

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Speaker 2: I will say that as soon as I came out,

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Speaker 2: all the other little parts of the puzzle started to align.

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Speaker 2: Because fashion has always.

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Speaker 3: Been in my blood.

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Speaker 2: I've always been obsessed with it, and you know, fashion

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Speaker 2: is driven by the queer community. There's so many beautiful

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Speaker 2: queer people in that industry. So I'm really glad I

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Speaker 2: came out when I did, because as soon as I

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Speaker 2: got that first job at Maya, I could just exist

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Speaker 2: really freely, as you know, I'll say then, like a

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Speaker 2: gay man working in fashion.

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Speaker 3: It felt really glamorous.

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Speaker 2: It was my little kind of devil wes prit A

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Speaker 2: moment and it was fabulous and I loved it. But

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Speaker 2: I think that had I gone into that job still

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Speaker 2: in the closet, still a Jehovah's witness like, it would

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Speaker 2: have been torture.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that hiding or suppressing really fundamental parts

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Speaker 1: of your identity in any area, but especially sexuality exhausting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how can you even function life and identity

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Speaker 1: is unraveling so fast anyway, let alone with deep fundamental

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Speaker 1: layers of yourself and kidden all the time I love

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Speaker 1: also that you describe your devil wast pride a moment

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Speaker 1: as being like you were taking Pantone colors as seriously

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Speaker 1: as life or death.

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Speaker 2: Literally, I'm like.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so important in the scheme of life.

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Speaker 2: I said to someone yesterday, I said, what we do

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Speaker 2: is pr it's not eer And that's a common thread. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's like a common phrase in my industry, because you know,

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Speaker 2: it can be so easy to get consumed by the

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Speaker 2: things that you love. If anything, it's kind of fabulous

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Speaker 2: that you should love something so much that a color

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Speaker 2: keeps you up at night, or you know, a dress

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Speaker 2: that you're dying to get for your client for the

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Speaker 2: logis would keep you up at night, Like what a

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Speaker 2: first world problem to have. But then the last two

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Speaker 2: years has made us realize what is actually important in life.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, the Pantone colors at that time, let me

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Speaker 2: tell you the amount of sleep that we lost at

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Speaker 2: Cosmo when something you go to print and it was

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Speaker 2: the wrong color.

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Speaker 3: But now you just kind of go, oh, well, what

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Speaker 3: are you going to do? The babes, where's the AA valves?

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Speaker 1: But I also love that you mentioned the jigsaw puzzle pieces,

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Speaker 1: and I think like the Wayta or the path Hea concept.

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Speaker 1: Why I spend so much time on it is to

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Speaker 1: show that there isn't a single guest we have ever had,

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Speaker 1: no matter how far along they are, and no matter

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Speaker 1: how successful or or not yet at the stage that

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Speaker 1: they want to be at, no matter where they are,

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Speaker 1: there's always identity as puzzle pieces. No one wakes up

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Speaker 1: with the full puzzle. In fact, at all times, I

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Speaker 1: think we spend so much of our time in Korea

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Speaker 1: and in identity aiming for like the perfect us, the

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Speaker 1: perfect us, as if it's a destination, as if one

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Speaker 1: day we're going to wake up and be like, this

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Speaker 1: is me. But I feel like at any time we're

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Speaker 1: actually just getting rid of pieces that don't work and

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Speaker 1: adding new pieces that do. And the puzzle is meant

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Speaker 1: to be evolving. So at the time, Cosmo was your

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Speaker 1: whole identity, that was what made you happy, and that

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Speaker 1: was aligned with who you wanted to be and what

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Speaker 1: you wanted to get out of life. But it's okay

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Speaker 1: for that to move on and shift and for different

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Speaker 1: chapters to unravel. So I mean, you've worked in the UK,

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Speaker 1: you started a British Vogue style by Danny has Kind,

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Speaker 1: of all been merged into the pathway from you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe the beginning of that fashion career until really Cosmo

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Speaker 1: ended in twenty eighteen, and that started a whole new

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Speaker 1: cycle of rebuilding identity. Can you talk us through building

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Speaker 1: from an intern in a new industry to becoming an

400
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,399
Speaker 1: editor like that in itself is like one whole lifetime's

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Speaker 1: worth of material.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So I always say that I don't think I'm

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Speaker 2: a tremendously like academic person.

404
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Speaker 3: My brain is the creative side.

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Speaker 2: So when I left school, I did contemplate going to

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Speaker 2: university and kind of getting a bachelor degree in fashion,

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Speaker 2: but that was just never going to be in my path.

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Speaker 3: And also, I think culturally it was ingrained to me

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Speaker 3: that only rich white people go to UNI. Wegstone go

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Speaker 3: to UNI.

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Speaker 2: It's not like there's one person in my family that

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Speaker 2: in my extended family that's gone to UNI. And also,

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Speaker 2: just disclaiming for your listeners, I use that term incredibly endearingly,

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Speaker 2: So I hope that people are aware of that.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't expect anything late, So you know, I was like, no, no, no,

416
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Speaker 1: You're not going to go to UNI.

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Speaker 2: But I really always had a really strong work ethic,

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Speaker 2: and I said to Mom and Dad, well, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go do this course in Paris. It goes for

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Speaker 2: a summer and then I'll come back. And I was

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Speaker 2: hit the ground running because I firmly believe that you

422
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Speaker 2: can learn best on the job. You can never learn

423
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Speaker 2: like the way you learn in a classroom is not

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Speaker 2: how you learn.

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Speaker 3: On the job.

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Speaker 2: So when I moved to London, yeah, I just started interning.

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Speaker 2: My little took us off. So I worked in PR

428
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Speaker 2: for a year. Had no idea what PI even meant.

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Speaker 2: I had to google what it stood for, and then.

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Speaker 3: Did that for a year and actually did quite well.

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Speaker 3: I was like, okay, this is cool. I can talk

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Speaker 3: a lot. I even had to market things.

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Speaker 2: And then I jumped to the magazine sector because I've

434
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Speaker 2: been obsessed with mag since I was eleven. So when

435
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Speaker 2: you're like interning at British Fogue, which talk about CZA.

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Speaker 2: That happened because I introduced myself to the editor at

437
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 2: a fashion show and basically like cornered her.

438
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: And was like, can I email you please? I really

439
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 3: want to email you in my TV.

440
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 2: She was like sure, you know, and then and for

441
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: six weeks later, I'm sitting in the cupverd at British

442
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 2: organ I was like, wow, how am I here? So

443
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: all those moments I just really you know, the want

444
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 2: of a better term, seizing that opportunity. If there is

445
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: someone in front of you introduce yourself, the worst they

446
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 2: can do is look at.

447
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 3: You and like say no. So I did that a lot.

448
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 2: So when I came home from London, I started the

449
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 2: blog Style by Denny, which doesn't exist anymore. But I

450
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 2: really wanted that that magazine job. There was something about

451
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 2: it for me that I just needed to tick off

452
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 2: the list. So when I moved to Sydney at twenty six,

453
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 2: I started interning at twenty seven and my.

454
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 3: Dad was like, how can you do this again? You're

455
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: not getting paid again.

456
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 2: You're working, you know, a retail job to supplement this internship,

457
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 2: Like is it actually worth it? And I said, Dad,

458
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 2: I have a feeling it's all gonna work out, dad.

459
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: And I was there for six months and then got

460
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: a job, you know, And that was the best five

461
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: years of my life. Cosmo are some of the most

462
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 2: cherished memories I will ever have. The things I learned

463
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 2: in those five years will serve me forever. The family

464
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: that I made there, and the puzzle piece that Cosmo

465
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: played in me finding my identity was by far the

466
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: most defining chapter of my life thus far.

467
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so fascinating, and I think it's so valuable

468
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: that reminder of like, if you don't ask, it's a no.

469
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: And there are some pathways that are really clear, like

470
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: you can't be a doctor unless you do X amount

471
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: of years of study, and you.

472
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: Have to do you want to.

473
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: But there are also areas where if you don't just

474
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: sort of suggest an opportunity to almost create one where

475
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: there isn't one, Like if you hadn't been bold enough

476
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: to walk up and have a conversation with that editor,

477
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: you would never have gotten that job, which would then

478
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: probably have not led to the internship, which then wouldn't

479
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 1: have led to climbing the ladder. And I think that

480
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: people really want to walk into a job at the

481
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: job they want. They don't want to go from the

482
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: bottom and believe that positioning yourself where lightning is going

483
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: to strike at each point can get you further than

484
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: you could ever know. So, I mean, you became fashion

485
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: editor from an intern within one organization, what would you

486
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: say to anyone who's aspiring to become, you know, especially

487
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: in journalism where it's fiercely competitive, but just making yourself

488
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: stand out and being patient while you're not where you

489
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: want to be yet, but also trusting that you will

490
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: be able to get there. How did you navigate that ladder?

491
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: So my advice I would say to anyone is you

492
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: need to be two things, or if you're not one

493
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: of the two, then you need to figure out how

494
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: to be the other one. Because for me, the magic

495
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: source of success in any field actually is to be

496
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 2: the smartest person in the room, but also the kindest

497
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 2: person in the room. So for me, it's all about

498
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: if you love insects, throw yourself into research and education

499
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: until you know the back of insects, like I know

500
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: the catalog of Prata's fucking discography of life. I can

501
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: tell you every product collection that's existed between when she

502
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: started to now. And that came with many, many long

503
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: nights of research, but it never felt like work because

504
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: I loved it. It was a world that I'm genuinely

505
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: obsessed with. So when I first got that internship in London,

506
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: my bosses were just really impressed by how much I knew.

507
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: My knowledge of the history of fashion, my knowledge of references.

508
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: I'm like a rollerdex of information. So knowledge maybe is

509
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: better word than saying smart, because I think that can

510
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: be quite subjective. But be knowledgeable, know your shit, and

511
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: then secondly, be kind because people notice that when you

512
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: come into the office or any space that you work

513
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: in and you have a kind disposition and you genuinely

514
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: want to be at people's hand length to help.

515
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 3: Do you need this, do you need that?

516
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: Is it getting a coffee? Is it photocopying stuff? It

517
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what it is. When you were there to assist,

518
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: you just do it. I used to pick up, you know,

519
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: the laundry of a style of that I was assisting

520
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: in London. You know, when I started working with her,

521
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: she was going through a breakup. I was her therapist

522
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: more than I was her assistant.

523
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: But you know, you just do it.

524
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: I think also we've kind of learned over the last

525
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: few years, especially that there can be a great amount of,

526
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: you know, an abusive power.

527
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 3: That occurs in those sorts of environments. So don't let

528
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: people take the piss.

529
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: But in the best environment, you will learn every single

530
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 2: day on the job, and when you come with eagerness

531
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: and kindness and empathy, and you just like you go ham,

532
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: there's no.

533
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: Way you will fail none.

534
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: And I knew that you have to have a lot

535
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 2: of self assurance in a weird way. And for me,

536
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 2: there was no plan B. Everyone used to always say

537
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 2: to me, what's going to happen if you don't work

538
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 2: in fashion? And I was like, well, that's never gonna happen,

539
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: so catch you on the book. So maybe that's stupid,

540
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: maybe that's really like idealistic and you know, quite romantic

541
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 2: in my mind, but that was the only option.

542
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I love that you really bring to

543
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: the forefront of their attention and how kindness is such

544
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: an important currency that it gets overlooked so often, and

545
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: that's I think that's the thing that people remember more

546
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: than that you, you know, sold X amount of magazines

547
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: and that these metrics happened and you weren't this amount

548
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: of money. It's kindness in your legacy and.

549
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: I can you know, when I became a fashion editor,

550
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: I then suddenly became someone who was managing interns and

551
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: I would see them come through the doors, and I

552
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: would always see the sort of rich human with the

553
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: Gucci belt, and you know, they got an uber to

554
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: intern that day, and then I would see the working

555
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: class person you know in their came up jeans doing

556
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 2: the best that they can. And I will tell you now,

557
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: I could care less what brand the shirt is on

558
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: your back. If you don't enter a space with kindness,

559
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: people will remember. And truly, I can't stress that enough.

560
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: Fashion is often very superfluous and superficial, but it really

561
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: does not matter what you're wearing. It matters, like how

562
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: your soul shines through. You could be wearing a paper bag,

563
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 2: but if you have, if you have the X factor,

564
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: you can buy the Gucci belt when you get the

565
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: pay rise, don't worry about it, like I'm.

566
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 3: Telling them, you just do you.

567
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so true. And I think that's something

568
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: else that I like looking back at your time at

569
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: cosmeon the way you've spoken about it as well, is

570
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: the idea that, like to get to where you want

571
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: to go, you do have to sometimes do things you

572
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: don't want to do and go through chapters that you

573
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: don't love. You don't seizing the A isn't having ya

574
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: all the time. It means doing all the things that

575
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: are necessary to get you there. And like I know,

576
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: you started in digital and YouTube, which is something you

577
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: weren't really even interested in, but it was a foot

578
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: in the door. And like one of the ways you

579
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: once describe being a picture editor was if there's an

580
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: article in Cosmo about anal and there's a picture of

581
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: a peach next to it. I was the person in

582
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: charge of the picture of the peach. I was like, nice.

583
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you really worked your way up from the

584
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: bott started from the bottom.

585
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 3: Now we're here, literally, and you know how much cried

586
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 3: are used to taking that.

587
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: I would come to those picture meetings with every example

588
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: under the sun, because you know, you get a brief

589
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, we're doing a story about.

590
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: You know, blowjobs.

591
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: Okay, well you can't you know, sort of putting a

592
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: dick in the magazine, which we didn't do. You know

593
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: that stopped in the nineties. You have to think, you know,

594
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: outside the box and think of how am I going

595
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: to make this exciting but also interesting and visually a feeling.

596
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: And I really took a lot of pride in those jobs,

597
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: and I knew that they were not what I wanted

598
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: to do, they were not the end goal, but I

599
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: knew that they would get me there.

600
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: And you know, Beyonce wasn't built in a day.

601
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: Do you really think she wanted to be on all

602
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: of those like competitions when she was nine years old

603
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: getting rejected and you know, seeing men win over her.

604
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, But look at her.

605
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: Now, right, Danny was also not built in a day.

606
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: I love that, even though you know, people could have

607
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: turned up in a paper bag and won you'r hard

608
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: with their kindness. I'm sure there were some moments that

609
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: were just so fucking glam being a fashion editor at Cosmo.

610
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: So what were some of your like dish the dirt

611
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: on some of your highest highs in that role and

612
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: then some of the lowest lows as well that we

613
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: might never expect could kind of happen when on the

614
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: outside it probably was like you were just smashing it.

615
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: So let's start with the lows.

616
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: The lows of working in magazines is that they pay

617
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: jack shit. So and I don't say that lightly. You know,

618
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: my first salary at Cosmo I think was forty one

619
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: thousand dollars or thirty nine thousand dollars. It was pretty menual.

620
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: And to live in Sydney and to be paying rent.

621
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: Like you know, I remember, do the math, do the math.

622
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: And you know, my friends were working in accountancy jobs

623
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I would call them and you know,

624
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: they're on eighty ninety k year and here I am earning, like,

625
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: you know, forty grand a year and trying to put

626
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: two coins together and then looking the part as well,

627
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: because it does come with the pressure. So that was

628
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: really hard. Often it felt like, you know, you were

629
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: there because you should be so honored to be there.

630
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: You know, it would have been nice to have been

631
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: paid accordingly. However, what I did see from early on

632
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: was that, you know, when I got the job, my

633
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: editor said to me, Denny, you got your dream job

634
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: five years too late. Because in the heyday of ACP Media,

635
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: when Kerry Packer was there, it was like big salaries,

636
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: fancy Christmas hampers that every employee got. Every used to

637
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: hear those stories. Meanwhile, when I worked at Baoer Media,

638
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: Bower Media didn't even provide us with coffee, like instant

639
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: coffee in the kitchen.

640
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: So let me tell you a funny story. On my

641
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: first week of Cosmo, I.

642
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: Went to the kitchen and I opened the drawer and

643
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: there was a jar of macona in the kitchen, and

644
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: I was like, I called my mom and I was like, Mom,

645
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: this is great. They've got like a Macona in the drawers.

646
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: I was making myself a cup of macona every morning.

647
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: A week later, there's a sign on the thing that says,

648
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: whoever is stealing my Macona, please stop, written by Lee Campbell,

649
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: who's now one of my best friends.

650
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: And I I walked into the office and I said, Lee,

651
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 3: I thought Baoer provided that macona. And everyone just looked

652
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: at me and said, oh, Jenny Darling, you have so

653
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: much to learn, like what you know.

654
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: So I think that was probably yeah, probably they're not

655
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: so fun part because when you're producing a magazine as well,

656
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: you want big budgets.

657
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: You have all these grand dreams.

658
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: But I will say to flip that to a positive,

659
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: it teaches you how to be really resourceful. It teaches

660
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: you how to make the best product possible with very

661
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: little budgets.

662
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: So, you know, we learned something.

663
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: It taught me how to live in a city like

664
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: Sydney that was so expensive and just make it work

665
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: with buying stuff at H and M instead of like

666
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: rolling up in you know, po Taga Venetta.

667
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: So that's the low side.

668
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: The highlight and perhaps the most incredible surreal moments of

669
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: that job were the people that we had access to.

670
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: So I'll never forget my first year at Cosmo. We

671
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: used to have this event called Woman of the Year,

672
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: and for the first one, you know, we had Julia

673
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: Gillard being inaugurated into our Women of the Year Hall

674
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: of Fame.

675
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 3: She was brought up onto stage by Lisa Wilkinson.

676
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: You know. The following year, Julia Gillard inaugurated Delta Gudram

677
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: into our Hall of Fame. And when you get to

678
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: be in the presence of these people like Julia Gillard,

679
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: blew me away. And I would never have those opportunities

680
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: had I not worked at Cosmo. In terms of the

681
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: glamorous stuff, absolutely, there's packagers arriving every day, gifts arriving

682
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,959
Speaker 2: every day. That's just journalism or perhaps lifestyle media one

683
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: oh one. You become actually quite numb to them because

684
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, another press kits arrived, another free lipstick,

685
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: you know, another random cake that someone sent you. It

686
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: does become a little bit you get used to it.

687
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: But it was something that I never took for granted

688
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: because I would look at my other friends jobs and

689
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: they were working at like KPMG, earning one hundred grand

690
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: a year, but they were fucking miserable.

691
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: You know, at Cosmo, the Bachelor.

692
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: Would be, you know, debuting on Channel ten and we'd

693
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: get some shirtless model that would come in with like,

694
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: you know, a tray of roses to like hand out

695
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: to everyone in the office. I mean it's pretty great,

696
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: you know.

697
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 3: So, I mean that's what I would say. It was

698
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: buber glamorous. You know.

699
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: I didn't get I didn't work at like a Voger

700
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: or harp As though, so it wasn't like I was

701
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: getting in like Chanel handbags that would have been nice.

702
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: But I will say here some TFU. When I interned

703
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: at in Style in the UK, I'll never forget. I

704
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: interned there over the Christmas period and the gifts that

705
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: these editors were getting. I'm talking Chaneale bags, Christian Luberton shoes,

706
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: Prada for Christmas, and I was like, Wow, these people

707
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: are living a life. You know. The editor of InStyle

708
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: at the time had a chauffeur who drove her to

709
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: work every day. Like I can tell you right now,

710
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: Branda mccahn was not being chauffeur to work every day.

711
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: So this week is actually the two year anniversary of

712
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: my episode with Laura Brown My Love Time. She's the

713
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: greatest ever. But we were on Necker Island, of all places,

714
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: and she had to drive a buggy. Couldn't drive a buggy.

715
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: I was like, Laura Brown trying to drive a buggy.

716
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: This is hilarious.

717
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: I mean, there is an example of an incredible woman

718
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: who is at the top of her game, and she's

719
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: the most down to earth woman ever. I've met her

720
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: once and I literally was just like in awe of.

721
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: How kind she was. You know, it goes back to

722
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: that she knows so shit, but she's fucking kind mate.

723
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: You know.

724
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: I also love this, like you dishing the tea of

725
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: how on the one hand, you're like shooting Taylor Swift

726
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: for the cover. On the other hand, the coffee you

727
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: were excited about was instant Macona. It was something like

728
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: n Espresso. It's like, we get free instant Macona. This

729
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: is so exciting.

730
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was.

731
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: It was good, lovely. Yeah.

732
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: You may have seen Denny as one of the faces

733
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: of the Body Shop's self love campaign, just one of

734
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: the many ways that they support equality and one of

735
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: the many reasons I love working with them. Another Body

736
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: Shop initiative I Loved Learning About is their Youth Activist series.

737
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: Since twenty nineteen, the Body Shop has proudly supported Charity

738
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: for Girls Equality, Plan International Australia through this leadership program,

739
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: supporting young people as they become future leaders and change makers. Globally,

740
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: we're living through so massive digital change escalated through the

741
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: pandemic and young people need to be supported to navigate

742
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: the space. Every day, young people globally, particularly girls and

743
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: gender diverse folks, are physically threatened, racially abused, sexually harassed

744
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: and body shamed online, especially when they raise their voices

745
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: and share their opinions. Online violence causes real harm and

746
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: it's silencing young people in a space where they should

747
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: be free to be. In twenty twenty one, the Youth

748
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Activists have undertaken extensive research asking what is needed to

749
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: mobilize and support people to be active online bystanders when

750
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: they witness online gender based violence. So one dollar from

751
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: every Body Shop lip vinyl sold will be donated to

752
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: Plan International Australia, the Charity for Girls Equality, to empower

753
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: young people striving to create a safer online world. Visit

754
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: the Bodyshop dot com dot a U to learn more.

755
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: Now.

756
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: One of the things I find the most interesting about

757
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: this is how much you seem to just love that

758
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: role and so up and experience in four years like

759
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: a lifetime worth of development. But unlike many people, the

760
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: chapters change when they grow out of a role or

761
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: some big disaster happens, like they get sick or they

762
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: burn out. But for you, it was Cosmo closing in

763
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and that wasn't something that was on the

764
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: cards or that you gradually built yourself up to. So

765
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: that tearing away of one identity and then throwing yourself

766
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: into when I don't have that title and prestige, who

767
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: am I? Is something I think a lot of people

768
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: have gone through in this pandemic, having their plans torn

769
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: away from them and having to rebuild, but realizing that's

770
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: actually really exciting. Sometimes storms don't come to disrupt your life.

771
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: They come to clear a path for something better.

772
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: How did you right? You? Yes?

773
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: How did that feel to have that dream kind of

774
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: almost ripped away from you? But then have that chance

775
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: to now be doing what you're doing, be geelong based again,

776
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: be freelancing, and then you know, becoming the face of

777
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: huge campaigns yourself, like the Body Shop, which I really

778
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: want to talk about. But yeah, first let's go through

779
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: just the transition.

780
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: I mean when I tell you the demise or the

781
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: closure of Cosmo, because it wasn't a demise. It was

782
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: literally closed in a space of four days.

783
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: Four days.

784
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tuesday we got the announcement. Friday was our last

785
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 2: day in the office.

786
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

787
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: So when I tell you that, that was equivalent to

788
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: like my biggest breakup, if not more. I mean, it

789
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: was gut wrenching. It was, and it wasn't an instant like,

790
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't an instant gut wrenching. You know, when someone dies.

791
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: He's a perfect example when everyone's different, Everyone praises grief

792
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 2: different but for me, generally, when someone dies, you know,

793
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: and it's quite a somber thought. You get that phone

794
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: call and you're like fuck, wow, okay, this is bull on,

795
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: But it takes you a couple of days and then

796
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: you find yourself sobbing in the aisles of the supermarket.

797
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: Right, That's what Cosmo was like. That first day was

798
00:37:59,080 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: so surreal.

799
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: We went to the pub at like eleven o'clock and

800
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: just drank our sorrows, and we were inundated with love

801
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: and messages of support from the entire industry and all

802
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 2: of our readers. But then it wasn't until like day

803
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: three that I woke up and I was like, wait,

804
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: I don't have a job to go to, Like.

805
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: What is this?

806
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: And then it became even more insidious because for five

807
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: years I was Denny from Cosmo. It was my practically

808
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: on my license, you know, no, but truly it was

809
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: you know, that's how I would introduce myself. You know,

810
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: now I introduced myself with Hi, my name is Danny.

811
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: My pronouns a day them. Back then it was like, hi,

812
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm Jenny from Cosmo. Always and that suddenly it's like

813
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: this big thing that hangs above you. And then suddenly

814
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: that thing is taken away from you, and you're like,

815
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: who am I without that thing? And circling back to

816
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 2: what we were discussing earlier about ego, you know, it

817
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: would be a remiss of me to not acknowledge the

818
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: fact that, of course there came gravitas with saying that

819
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: you worked at Cosmo. Cosmo was the brand that your

820
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: Uber driver would know, or you know, your sixty year

821
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: old Serbian Uncle New Cosmo. So yeah, it's a legacy

822
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: brand and it was something that I was tremendously proud of,

823
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: so losing that was really hard. I went away with

824
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: my mom to two weeks. I took my redundancy money

825
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: and said, let's go to New York because I don't

826
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: know what to do with my life right now. So

827
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: I took around a holiday and we spent a shit

828
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: ton of money that in retrospect, you know, could have

829
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: gone into savings. But that's Okayama the yay absolutely. So

830
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: when I got back then it was like crunch time

831
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: and I was like, I can't afford to live in

832
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: Sydney as a freelancer.

833
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: I just can't.

834
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: And also this coincided with one of the biggest, the

835
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: darkest chapters in my life in terms of a relationship that.

836
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 3: I was in.

837
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: So I remember saying to my mom in New York,

838
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: I think I need to come home. I don't know

839
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 2: for how long, but I just need to come home.

840
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: And the second I got to Geelong, I remember just

841
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: feeling an instant wave of peace. When I landed at

842
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: Avalon Airport.

843
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: I was like Avalon, Yeah, I was like, now you

844
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: can excit and.

845
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: You know, getting in the car and driving down the

846
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: highway and seeing the familiar little spots and Geelong saved

847
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: my life. And I don't say that lightly. Yeah, I

848
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: can't believe the opportunities that I've come my way, Like

849
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: the gratitude doesn't even cut it. And to go from

850
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: not knowing your identity, not knowing how you're going to exist,

851
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: not knowing what your career is going to look like,

852
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: to them being on a fucking life sized billboard for

853
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: a international brand like the body shop around the corner

854
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: from where you used to work in Sydney and used

855
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: to schlept a Cosmo, you know, on that thirty nine

856
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: k a year's salary. Pretty fucking epic And I don't

857
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 2: like that's not lost on me at all.

858
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it gives me goosebumps, and it makes

859
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: me also feel so privileged to be able to share

860
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: this story at this chapter where it's reassuring to anyone

861
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: who's going through a shit time, because like it's the

862
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: it's those low lows where you actually get off the

863
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: productivity hamster wheel of busy and productive and noise and

864
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: come back to like shit without anything that I thought

865
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: was important. You actually get to realize what really was

866
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: important all along, which is often not the things that

867
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: you've been living your life in accordance with. And I

868
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: love how you've pieced yourself back together in like a

869
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: more authentic way than you probably knew was you beforehand.

870
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: But it does involve a lot of darkness, a lot

871
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: of self doubt, a lot of mental health challenges. That

872
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: rebuilding of identity is probably the most disorientating thing anyone

873
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: can go through. Talk us through some of that self

874
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: doubt and the darkness. How do you find those like

875
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: you're now one of the most positive, excitable, grateful people,

876
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 1: but when you're in the depths of a depressive episode,

877
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: you can't feel those emotions necessarily, and it's if anyone

878
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: is in them right now. I think it's so reassuring

879
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: to hear that people do work their way back out

880
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: of it to higher highs than they ever knew they

881
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: could have. Ie a full sized bill woard around the

882
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: corner from all your old bosses, like Hey, yeah.

883
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: I mean, look, firstly, thank you. That's so tremendously kind

884
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: of you to say. I think that for me, I

885
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: always present as this very positive person like I always

886
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: have since I was little. My dad and I are

887
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: very similar in that way, but I've always had this

888
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: little cloud that hangs over me, and I.

889
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 3: Never knew what that was called.

890
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 2: It wasn't until recently that I really started to look

891
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 2: into that trauma. You know, the anxiety, a few little

892
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: episodes of depression that have come along, and this real

893
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: type a overachieving thing which I've realized in therapy is

894
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: that it's completely related to my queenness. Because when you

895
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: grow up and you have this feeling of other ring,

896
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: particularly when that's linked to masculinity and feeling not masculine

897
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 2: enough according to the world's.

898
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: Stereotypes, you feel like you have something to prove.

899
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: It's like, no, you're not going to be that kid

900
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 2: that everyone made fun of that was called a faggot

901
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: every day at high school. You're going to make something

902
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: of yourself and that which is great. I love that,

903
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: but that type a kind of mentality can be quite

904
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: detrimental often, so during that dark period, I just had

905
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: to like peel off the layers and go, Okay, why

906
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 2: do you have a habit of falling into abusive relationships?

907
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 3: Why does that keep happening?

908
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: What's the commed name of denominator here because as much

909
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 2: as it might be the boyfriends, it's also you, Denny.

910
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: So what's your role within this? You know?

911
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: Why don't you back yourself enough? Why are you too

912
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: nervous to go and ask your boss for a pay rise?

913
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: Why are you too nervous to speak up in relationships

914
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: of all kinds?

915
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: So when I came home, the first thing I did

916
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: was find a therapist. It changed my life.

917
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: And I've been in therapy before, but finding a therapist

918
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: is like finding a soul mate. That therapist whilst I

919
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: don't see him anymore, honestly, it's it was just lighte

920
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: bold moment after life bold moment. Then I met a

921
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: spiritual healer who I work with an have worked with

922
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: for the last two years.

923
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 3: Her name's Elise. She lives in a long shadow. Elise

924
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 3: at least.

925
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 2: Changed my life because when I sat down in my

926
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: first reiki healing session with her, she taught me about

927
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 2: shadow work and the inner child and how you kind

928
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: of look at all these things. So going through the

929
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: darkness is a constant thing, Mate, and then you and

930
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: then you throw on the pandemic, like who thought that

931
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: little thing would happen.

932
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, if coming to.

933
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: Terms with being made redundant wasn't hard enough, and then

934
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: trying to find your feet as a freelancer, then you

935
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: add onto it gender dysphoria and a pandemic.

936
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: Beautiful, like melting pot of joy for you.

937
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: Love that for you, But diamonds are made in the rough, honey.

938
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: You know you have to kind of like, if you don't.

939
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: Do the work, you can't really vibrate.

940
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: On the frequency in which you deserve. So I hope

941
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: I've answered your question. But essentially for me, it's like

942
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: when you have those moments of darkness, and I've had

943
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: them since I was little. The quicker you sit with

944
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: yourself and the quicker you do that shadow work, the

945
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: better you'll be in the long run, because life's too short. Absolutely,

946
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 2: waist sitting in that darkness too long.

947
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I always come back to that quote that

948
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: sometimes good things fall apart, so better things can fall together.

949
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: But it does involve the things falling apart first. It

950
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: usually involves some kind of very painful, uncomfortable shit storm,

951
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: but it's always for a reason, and you emerge out

952
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: the other end like that's why that had to happen.

953
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: It's also so interesting that you mentioned how that inner

954
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: child constantly feeling like you had to prove something because

955
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: of your otherness. In a very different context, I realized

956
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: through therapy that. So it's interesting you said earlier that

957
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 1: you don't know about the Asian community. I'm actually adopted.

958
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: So I was born in an orphanage. When I was

959
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: six months old, I moved here, been brought up by

960
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: like Caucasian country bumpkins in Kippsland. But it's interesting that

961
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: my constant burnout is because I have to prove that

962
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: I was worthy of the opportunity to grow up here.

963
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting how often your otherness makes you

964
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: feel like you have to earn extra to just keep

965
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: up with you know, normal, Yes, and I think that

966
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: feels a lot of us. But without therapy, you wouldn't

967
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: know that that's what was leading you into kind of

968
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: destructive or self annihilating tendencies.

969
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: Therapy is the best, the best, and you know, it's

970
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 3: really interesting.

971
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: I don't know how much you know about this, but

972
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 2: I've been learning a lot through a lease about like

973
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma. And whilst you have been adopted, I'm sure

974
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: that there is like an ancestral lineage that runs through you,

975
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: that comes with a whole lot of trauma, you know,

976
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: and when you come to a place that is, you know,

977
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 2: a colonized country full of white people, of course it's

978
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: going to be Even if you were, you know, raised

979
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 2: by white people, you're still struggle with that intergenerational trauma.

980
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: So wow, that's so fascinating. We need to talk about

981
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: that when we see each other at Puffed Off because.

982
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god on a podium.

983
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 2: Yea, that makes me so much because I never realized

984
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: how much intergenerational trauma and sort of internalized racism I

985
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: had towards myself until I was sitting in a therapist's

986
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: chair and he said to me, Denny, the reason why

987
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: you only date white men is because you think that

988
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: they're better than you.

989
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, whoa, oh my god, I

990
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: know I cannot wait for ound next count up in

991
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: real life. So then was it in that space of

992
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: kind of breaking down to break through that then you

993
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: came to this realization that you needed to come out again,

994
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: because most people find coming out once traumatic enough, but

995
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: to come out a second time again to family that

996
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: you care about, to have already been through one coming out,

997
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: but also in a time where this next coming out

998
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: has involved new pronouns, Like it's a fundamental change to

999
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: how you refer to yourself, to how other people relate

1000
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: to you. That has you know, you don't want to

1001
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: make a mistake. It's still quite a misunderstood, like a

1002
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: lot of us aren't. This isn't in my vernacular. So

1003
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: even I was like, oh my god, what if I

1004
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: accidentally say him? You know, it's a whole new world.

1005
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: How did you realize that this was the right time

1006
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: for you to make this, you know, next chapter in

1007
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: your identity?

1008
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 3: Sure?

1009
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: So, in a nutshell, I'm a firm believer that if

1010
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 2: the universe is holding something right in front of you,

1011
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: right in front of your nose, you can no longer

1012
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: ignore it. So, as I said to you earlier, I've

1013
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: known that I wasn't a boy, but I didn't want

1014
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: to be a girl necessarily. I've known that since I

1015
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: was three, so, but I never had the language. And

1016
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: then over the last five years, the term non binary has.

1017
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 3: Never been more you know, trending.

1018
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: Let's say, everyone's bloody talking about it, you know, the

1019
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: pronoun thing YadA, YadA, YadA. I started hearing these little things.

1020
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 2: I started being exposed to things. And it wasn't until

1021
00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 2: Sam Smith came out.

1022
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: As binary that I read an article that they were.

1023
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: Interviewed for and everything that they said in that article

1024
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: it brought me close to tears because I was like, wow,

1025
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 2: that's exactly how I feel.

1026
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: Interesting.

1027
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: But when I'm presented with something that really scares me,

1028
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: I ignore it. I did the same thing with the

1029
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 2: gay with the gay thing, so I was like, ignore, ignore,

1030
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: control or delete. Then then I could no longer control

1031
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: a delete. When six months later I met a non

1032
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: binary person for the first time in real life, and

1033
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: this was about two months before the pandemic began, and

1034
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: I mean as soon as they opened their mouth and

1035
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: started telling me about their experience, I.

1036
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 3: Internally broke down.

1037
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: I kept myself very composed, and then after that event,

1038
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 2: I said, Hey, would you mind if we exchange numbers

1039
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 2: because I just want to ask you a few things

1040
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: this week, and they said, yeah, call me, And as

1041
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: soon as I picked up the phone and called them

1042
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: that week, I burst into tears and I was like,

1043
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: I think I am you know what you are, And

1044
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 2: then we went into a lot down and the gift

1045
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: of lockdown. Yeah, But the gift of lockdown for me

1046
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: was two things, safety and time. So first and foremost,

1047
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: I had the safety of being in my home to

1048
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: be able to like dip my feet, play with makeup,

1049
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 2: where some things, I was kind of dressing the way

1050
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: I dressed now before that anyway around Geelong, which was

1051
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: getting a lot of interesting looks, and my parents were

1052
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: asking me a lot of questions, and my cousins were like,

1053
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: are you transgender? And it was all a bit of

1054
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: a talking point. When we're at home in lockdown, I

1055
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: could do whatever I wanted to, and I knew that

1056
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to really judge me other than

1057
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: my parents.

1058
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: I was going to say, Mama Macker, like, by the.

1059
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: Way, Mama really had some issues with it, So that

1060
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: was very confronting. And then the gift of time was

1061
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: that I suddenly had all the time in the world

1062
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: to watch all the documentaries, listen to all the podcasts,

1063
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: do my research. And once you really have all of

1064
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 2: the puzzle pieces and they come together, you can no

1065
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: longer hide them. And I found myself feeling the same

1066
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: way as I felt just before I came out as

1067
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: gay in that Literally I felt like it was going

1068
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: to explode and vomit out of my mouth.

1069
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: I had to get it off my chest.

1070
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: And the second I got off my chest, as hard

1071
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: as it was, everything changed, not only personally but also professionally,

1072
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: Like coming out of non binary just changed my life

1073
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: in every way, shape and form.

1074
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it has been one of the most heartwarming,

1075
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,479
Speaker 1: beautiful things to watch, Like you had already had quite

1076
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: a profile and following before you came out, so for

1077
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: everyone to have gone through it with you and kind

1078
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: of be taken along for the ride rather than just

1079
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: meeting you, and you'd already come out and you already

1080
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: knew how you felt. I think seeing how difficult it

1081
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: has been, but also how much you've owned it and

1082
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: weaved it into the story has been so beautiful and

1083
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: I imagine has given a lot of other people who

1084
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: are quite confused about who they are permission to not

1085
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: be scared to investigate this, Like you're probably the person

1086
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: who you met who helped you for so many other people.

1087
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: Has your sexual inclination changed in that before you knew

1088
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: you liked boys people with boys, but has it changed

1089
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: to now people with penises.

1090
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me when I first came out as

1091
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: non binary, it's funny, so funny that you mentioned that,

1092
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: because one of the first questions that the people around

1093
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: me started asking was are you bisexual now?

1094
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 3: Or are you pan sexual now?

1095
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, honeys, I think you're getting confused

1096
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 2: yet that's fine, and that's totally normal. By the way,

1097
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: my you know, my sexuality is still the same, like

1098
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 2: I have a dick, like other people who have dicks,

1099
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: whether those people are cis men or non binary trans people,

1100
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: as long as there's a penis involved.

1101
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: It's going to be good. Basically, Yeah, nice, That's.

1102
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: Kind of how I'm sexually identify. But I will say

1103
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: I've always been a little bit like we'll try anything once,

1104
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: like be a little bit fluid.

1105
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1106
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: I had my first experience with a vagina like two

1107
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: years ago, and I never thought I would do that,

1108
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: and it was bloody beautiful.

1109
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: So you know, I heard about that. I heard that

1110
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: your dad was like, he was so proud.

1111
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 3: Of you, so bad.

1112
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 2: So never say never, But I will say that I am,

1113
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 2: you know, ninety nine point nine percent a raging homosexual

1114
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: and I love it.

1115
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 3: I love it.

1116
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, and I think this is why. I

1117
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: mean the fact that our sexuality is so much more fluid.

1118
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: There are terms now, like there are actual labels to

1119
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: describe things that didn't have a name before, which would

1120
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: have made it even more confusing. But I think for

1121
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: the you know, cis heterosexual person, it's overwhelming to have

1122
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: pant sexual, bisexual, non binary, trance, Like there's so many

1123
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 1: different terms now, and you don't want to offend anyone either,

1124
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: but you also want to. Like one thing you do

1125
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: really well is make everyone feel safe to ask questions

1126
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: so that they can further their education, rather than being

1127
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: like what if I say the wrong thing, I'm just

1128
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: not going to ask and that I won't know. Have

1129
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: you found it easy to suddenly get so many questions

1130
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: about sexuality? And do you get confused ever with your

1131
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: own pronouns? And how do you choose bathrooms? Like the

1132
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: practical things day to day?

1133
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so first st up, listen, I get confused all

1134
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 2: the time. I fuck up my own pronouns all the time.

1135
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 3: Really yeah, all the time.

1136
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: I've got a handful of non binary friends and I

1137
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 2: often fuck up their pronouns as well.

1138
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 3: We are all human.

1139
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: My Dalen, And it's really a rewiring of our brains

1140
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: in many ways, even though you know, one of my

1141
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: go to answers to this question is we've actually been

1142
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,479
Speaker 2: using they them, for example, in the singular our whole lives,

1143
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 2: We've just never been aware of it. So but it's

1144
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: just rewiring the context of this language in terms of

1145
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: the questions that I get asked. I mean, I'm just

1146
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 2: so happy to be able to teach people, as in

1147
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: when I'm learning them, you know. So when I first

1148
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: came out, I had so many questions for that first

1149
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,280
Speaker 2: non binary person that I met, because I was like, okay,

1150
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: so am I still gay? Or am I now like

1151
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: pan sexual? Because I'm like genderlest what about people that

1152
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 2: are attracted to me? Do they have to be kind

1153
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: to be attracted to me?

1154
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: Like?

1155
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 1: Is there a criteria?

1156
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 3: Do I give them a sale? Yeah? Totally so. And

1157
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 3: I remember they just said to me, Denny, babe, like,

1158
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: you can make up the rules as you go. There

1159
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 3: are no rules.

1160
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: You know, being gay is a huge part of your identity.

1161
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: And also even the term gay, you know, it refers

1162
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 2: to so many people. So yeah, the questions are just

1163
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: as daunting often as they are for me to you. However,

1164
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: my whole principle is that it's all about intention, and

1165
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 2: I can you can hear in someone's tone if the

1166
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: intention is pure and they genuinely want to know, or

1167
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 2: if they've genuinely made a mistake, we're good. Okay, We're

1168
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 2: absolutely fine. However, if you're going to be a bit

1169
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 2: of an asshole about it, that's a different story. But

1170
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 2: if you come to me with honesty and vulnerability and

1171
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: a desire to evolve, we're good.

1172
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 3: I don't care what you call me at the end

1173
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 3: of the day, you know, and honestly, if I'm honestly offended,

1174
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 3: I'll let you know.

1175
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: You'll tell it. Yeah. Yeah, have you found you? As

1176
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 1: you mentioned, there are some people who have who don't

1177
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 1: receive coming out as well. And yeah, I mean usually

1178
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: people who fundamentally in your life aren't the people who

1179
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: matter to you. But being as a kind of public figure,

1180
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: you become the target. I think of a lot of hate,

1181
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: and then sometimes there is a bit of self hatred

1182
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: along the way of when you do have different chapters

1183
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: of very identity, looking back at how you treated yourself

1184
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: before and then after, and how have you dealt with

1185
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: trolls externally and also those thoughts internally for yourself, and

1186
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: how does the Body Shop self Love campaign kind of

1187
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: feed into that in terms of teaching yourself to rewire

1188
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: those thoughts.

1189
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 2: Of course, I think what's so beautiful about that campaign

1190
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: was that it was completely about self love. It was

1191
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: an opportunity for the Body Shop to educate their audiences

1192
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: on probably I would say, the most important.

1193
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: Thing have in life, which is the relationship that we

1194
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 3: have with ourselves.

1195
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: Now, that's all well and good until someone is telling

1196
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 2: you to kill yourself on Instagram, you know. Or what's

1197
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: worse perhaps is when people are within your family your

1198
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: extended family, are disrespecting you and invalidating you to a

1199
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: point that you're like, how are we even related? So

1200
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 2: those moments can be really, really difficult. But then I

1201
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 2: instantly go back to the message of that campaign. You know,

1202
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 2: loving yourself is the single most important thing. When you

1203
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: go to bed at night and you wake up in

1204
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: the morning, you wake up with you first and foremost.

1205
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 2: Whether you have someone next to you or not is irrelevant.

1206
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 2: And if you don't like who you are first firstly,

1207
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: because you know, it's liking someone and loving someone is

1208
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 2: very different. You can love your boyfriend just say, but

1209
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: you might not like him that week because he's being

1210
00:57:58,480 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: head right.

1211
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: If you don't genuinely love yourself, until you truly love yourself,

1212
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 3: I don't believe that you can love someone else. And

1213
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 3: Rippul says that at the end of every episode of

1214
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 3: diag Race. Yeah for a reason, and it's so cliche,

1215
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 3: but I love that quote because I do believe that.

1216
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, look, navigating the trolling and the hate.

1217
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 2: It hurt the first few times. It still hurts occasionally.

1218
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: It hurts mostly when it comes from women, because it

1219
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 2: often does come from women. When it comes from guys,

1220
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, take a hike, mate, like you're just being

1221
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 2: a dickhead. But when it comes from women, that does

1222
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: really upset me. Because women, to me are the best

1223
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 2: gender in the world. They're the most elite species. I

1224
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: just adore them so much, so that does hurt sometimes,

1225
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: But I always look at the bigger picture. I think, Okay,

1226
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: why is this person Because you know, hurt people hurt people.

1227
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 3: So oh my gosh, this person is hurt and.

1228
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: They're hurting me because they own hurt. So let's try

1229
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 2: unpack that hurt and how can we kind of reframe

1230
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: this and take this as a lesson. That's kind of

1231
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: how I know I get it now because I don't

1232
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: have the energy or the desire to be curled up

1233
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: into the fetal position because some wanker thinks that they

1234
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 2: control me on the internet, like I don't have time.

1235
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, I love it so much. Such

1236
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: a good attitude and the only way you can survive

1237
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: as well, because they're I think social is such a

1238
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: blessing and a burden. But if you take the good

1239
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: and learn how to cope with the bad, it can

1240
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: be such a powerful platform because that's how you're changing

1241
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: people's lives.

1242
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's the new media. It's the new

1243
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 3: you know.

1244
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: Growing up, I had Oprah Winfrey who I was obsessed with,

1245
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: and I would watch her on the Telly every day.

1246
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: Instagram is the new form of that, It's like, and

1247
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: now we have so many Oprahs who are constantly inspiring

1248
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: us on the daily, you know. So yeah, it's it's

1249
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 2: a tremendous tool when it's used with love, empathy, and kindness.

1250
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: Then do you find, because you have become such an

1251
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: important role model in this area, that you're getting pulled

1252
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 1: in so many different directions, and your career is going

1253
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: so well that like the constant connection to your platforms

1254
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: and like burnout is such a real thing, and also

1255
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: continuing with those like inner child feelings of having to

1256
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: still prove yourself. How do you manage burnout and like

1257
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: turning off your devices and having some time to yourself

1258
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: if you ever do that?

1259
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm getting better at it. So look, I'm

1260
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 2: in aries, So I'm all or nothing?

1261
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: Are you as well? Yeah? When's your birthday?

1262
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: Twenty fourth of March?

1263
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 3: I was April first?

1264
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: Oh oh my god. But still that's my my husband's

1265
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: dad's birthday is April first, amazing?

1266
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 3: So okay, well then you're very well aware.

1267
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 2: I am, you know, all or nothing. Am either all

1268
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 2: in or I'm not in. There's no gray area with me.

1269
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 2: So when it comes to my work and socials and

1270
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: kind of keeping on top of it, you know, the

1271
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 2: first probably twelve months of it, like I was on

1272
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 2: top of it, responding to every comment every day and

1273
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 2: giving every single thing I could, and I found that

1274
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: it left my tank very empty in times of like wait,

1275
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: who am I?

1276
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 3: Where am I? Like? What's going on? What day is

1277
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 3: it today. Oh did I just miss my best friend's birthday? Shit,

1278
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 3: I better call it.

1279
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 2: You know, at the start of the year, I was

1280
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 2: really fortunate in that I was traveling a lot, like

1281
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: I was in Sydney every other week for work, and

1282
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: life just became like getting on a plane, checking into

1283
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: a hotel, being on set do it again the next day,

1284
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: which God wouldn't mind that now after fucking four months lockdown,

1285
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 2: you know again first world problems, but it can become

1286
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 2: very draining emotionally and energetically. And I'm an EmPATH, so

1287
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: I really like energies everything to me. So now I

1288
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 2: think I've really started to set some boundaries for the

1289
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: last probably three months especially, I just realized that, you know,

1290
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 2: unless I have a boundary, and I unless I can

1291
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: feel my tank first, I'm not going to be able

1292
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 2: to feel anyone's tank. So actually, this week, for like

1293
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: a week straight, I've like not been looking at my

1294
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 2: socials after like ten pm, nine pm, which I know

1295
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 2: is still pretty late, but I'm late. I'm an idol generally,

1296
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: so you know, I remember thinking, well, my parents own

1297
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 2: a cafe and have trading hours, so why shouldn't I

1298
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: have my own trading hours, or if I need a

1299
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: day off, I'm just I just quickly say, hey, guys,

1300
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 2: I just need a day off, like I need my

1301
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 2: mind to switch off today. Catch you on the flip side.

1302
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 2: I'll come back tomorrow and I'll be even sparklier. But

1303
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: today I just don't feel very sparkly. So it's kind

1304
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 2: of a constant thing to navigate. But I do think

1305
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 2: that you can never take that working class, you know,

1306
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 2: immigrant mentality, that hard work ethic that my parents instilled

1307
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 2: in me. I don't think that will ever really go away,

1308
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 2: and I don't think I really wanted to, to be honest, I.

1309
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: Really love that it's been such a big part of

1310
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 1: your identity. But also think that air is in particular

1311
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: need boundaries. So even having like they can be very

1312
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: different and you can still work much longer hours than

1313
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: the average person, but having some kind of boundary is

1314
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: important because you are sparking. Yeah, you can't be sparkly

1315
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: all the time, which leads really nicely to the last section,

1316
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: which is playta, and that's where we let the inner

1317
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: child back out. And I think even if you love

1318
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 1: your job and it doesn't feel like work, just to

1319
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: keep creating I mean a cosmo. You'll know more than

1320
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: anyone that if you don't get distance from your work

1321
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: every now and then and do something that's completely unrelated,

1322
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: you can't be good at it because you're not getting perspective.

1323
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: So how do you play? What are the things you

1324
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: do that make you forget what time it is? That

1325
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: have no like productive goal that aren't success driven, but

1326
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: like Netflix or like dancing, Like what do you do

1327
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: for fun?

1328
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: So in lockdown world, it's yet nothing, no, no, no,

1329
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 3: no no. That have my things?

1330
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 2: In lockdown world, it's spending a night or you know,

1331
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: multiple nights a week on the couch with my mum,

1332
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,919
Speaker 2: tub of ice cream, The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills,

1333
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 2: or the Keeping Up with the Kadashians when it was

1334
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 2: a crazy Yeah, REALITTV is my favorite form of escape.

1335
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 2: And doing that in the company of my mother and

1336
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 2: ice cream heaven in a post Lockdown world. In a

1337
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: pre Lockdown world, it's you know, jumping in the car

1338
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 2: and going to the beach. Most comfortable when I'm in water,

1339
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: most at peace when I'm in a body of water. Yeah,

1340
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: so I love a swim. I really love like a

1341
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 2: cottage getaway. I was doing that a lot. Actually, I

1342
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 2: would just jump in a car, you know, rent to Airbnb,

1343
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 2: go somewhere by myself. I love my own company. I

1344
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,439
Speaker 2: can't tell you how much I'm an introvert in that way.

1345
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 2: So being alone in like a hotel room or something,

1346
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 2: or in like a little country town somewhere heaven dancing

1347
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: is so.

1348
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 3: Bloody good for the soul, Like bring on the puffed

1349
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 3: off nights.

1350
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to go together when when it.

1351
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 3: Finally wait for that.

1352
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 2: And travel, I mean, it's probably the thing I miss

1353
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 2: the most. Travel and music are the things that generally

1354
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: fill my cup. So if I can sit in a

1355
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 2: car and like go somewhere, even if it's down the road,

1356
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 2: whilst listening to my favorite music, like music is free therapy.

1357
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: I dance every morning while I make coffee or while

1358
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 2: I'm in the shower, and it's just the best.

1359
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: My god, me too. I sign up for Steazy. I

1360
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: don't know if you've tried Steeze yet. So good, so

1361
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: so good good, Oh my god, the corry is amazing.

1362
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know I need to spend some more time

1363
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 3: on that.

1364
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: It's so good. But I'll put like because my husband

1365
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: like usually trying to work or whatever. I'll listen to

1366
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: it in my headphone, so all he can hear is

1367
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: just like my footsteps and me going. It's like I

1368
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: got near the music, but it's like you're absolutely losing

1369
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: the plot by yourself. I have the greatest time.

1370
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 3: I'm seizing my ya exactly right.

1371
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: Second last question, Three interesting things about you that don't

1372
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: normally come up in conversation.

1373
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 3: Okay, cool. So One, I have a photographic memory.

1374
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I have had ever since I was little,

1375
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 2: so it's really coming handy, which is great.

1376
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 3: I love it so much. Two I have five taboos,

1377
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 3: which me too. Yeah, five tatoos. We love that. My gosh,

1378
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 3: we're really aries. Tweel we're the same, I know as well.

1379
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: Where are yours?

1380
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 3: So I've got wrists, that was my first one gorgeous.

1381
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 2: Got one of my forearm, one of my bicep, one

1382
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: of my neck, and one of my shoulder. Way. And

1383
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: then the third thing is that I oh, so this

1384
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 2: is actually not a commonly known thing and I sort

1385
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 2: of have to explain this on my socials this week.

1386
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 2: So for the comfort of ease, I always introduced myself

1387
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 2: as serbian because my parents were both Well, my mum

1388
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: was born in Croatia actually, and back then it was

1389
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 2: called Yugoslavia, but they grew up in Serbia. But what

1390
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know is that my lineage

1391
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: and my ancestry is actually Romany Gypsy via the northern

1392
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 2: Indian region of Punjab. However, we only found out about

1393
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 2: the Indian and Romany Gypsy kind of part recently. So

1394
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 2: up until the last thirty two years of my life,

1395
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 2: we identified and sort of, you know, it would very

1396
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,800
Speaker 2: proudly call ourselves Serb Romanian because we speak Romanian in

1397
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 2: my house.

1398
01:06:51,280 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 3: What me, Okay, this is fucked up. Okay, it's so

1399
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 3: what the Actually that's okay, So listen up.

1400
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 2: That's so interesting that you just said that, because in

1401
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: my family and my community, so it's probably about two

1402
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty of us now give or take a

1403
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 2: few deaths that we've had in our family in Geelong, right,

1404
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 2: and that's our Serb Romanian community. So the Romanian that

1405
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 2: we speak is a very specific dialect of Romanian, so

1406
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: that don't actually speak it in Romania. So we were

1407
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 2: always very yeah, and also we're very dark skin so

1408
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 2: my whole family a lot of my uncles look Indian.

1409
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 2: I often get called Indian or Turkish or Lebanese, Middle

1410
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 2: East and whatever. I never get picked to serve. So

1411
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 2: growing up we were so confused.

1412
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 3: We were like, why are we Romanian? Yet? You know

1413
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 3: we've met people who are.

1414
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 2: Romanian that don't speak the same dialect as us. I

1415
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 2: underd exactly what you just said, but we would say

1416
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 2: that in a different dialect. So when I was very young,

1417
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: one of our great uncles said, our ancestrists from India.

1418
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 3: I've done some research. I know this for a fact,

1419
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 3: and everyone kind of laughed at him.

1420
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 2: They were like, no, we don't believe you, Like how

1421
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 2: do you get from India to Romania anyway? So I

1422
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 2: went to India for my thirtieth birthday, and when I

1423
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 2: tell you, I felt like I was coming home. I

1424
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 2: called my mum in tears because I was like, Mom,

1425
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 2: this is where we're from. Like everyone who looks like us,

1426
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 2: everyone he thinks I'm Indian. Every time I would go

1427
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 2: into a shop, no one thought I was a tourist.

1428
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 2: The warmth I feel from these people is wild. So

1429
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 2: we did a DNA ancestry test in Lockdown and it

1430
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 2: came back as the Punjab region and more specifically the

1431
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 2: Romany Gypsy people.

1432
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 3: Some people call them Romani travelers.

1433
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 2: So I follow all these Instagram accounts now of the

1434
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 2: Romany people and I'm like, oh my god, they look

1435
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 2: like my family.

1436
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 3: So we finally actually know where we're from.

1437
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 2: So I'm fluent in Serbian, Romanian and Macedonian Ish, a

1438
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 2: little bit german Ish. So like, there's lots of multiculturalism

1439
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 2: in this in this household, and I don't think I

1440
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 2: talk about it enough, and I need to talk about

1441
01:08:58,320 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 2: it more because I love it so much.

1442
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: That is so interesting. So I love languages, like I

1443
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: studied three languages at UNI. Everywhere I go, I try

1444
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 1: and learn the language. We went to Rwanda, I picked

1445
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: up Kina Orwanda, like I just they're my favorite. That's

1446
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: my ya is like learning the languages love because I

1447
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 1: think you when you understand the way that people think,

1448
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: like language describes a thought process, it helps you understand

1449
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: their culture. And so anyone that speaks another language and like,

1450
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 1: teach me everything. I love that my ex was Romanian.

1451
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 1: But because I speak French fluently and it's a I

1452
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 1: didn't know it was a Latin language. Yes, I could

1453
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: pick it up really quickly because the grammar's the same

1454
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,799
Speaker 1: and like you just replace certain bits. So I started

1455
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: to like speak it really conversationally with him. But then

1456
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: when we broke up, like twelve thirteen years ago, I

1457
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,600
Speaker 1: was like, I'm never going to use Romanian again, like

1458
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: of all the time, and I just I have not

1459
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 1: said that phrase I reckon in a decade. But then

1460
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 1: I was like, like what else do I I just

1461
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 1: like remember random phrases every now and then. And I

1462
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: was in Paris studying. I did part of my law

1463
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: degree in Paris, and in Paris, well, they were sitting

1464
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: at like there were these two ladies sitting at a

1465
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 1: table next to me, bitching about everyone in the restaurant,

1466
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 1: like talking about me, talking about everyone and like this

1467
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: little Asian girl in France. I'm sure that the last

1468
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: thing they ever thought was that I could speak Romanian.

1469
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 1: And at the end, I was just like, oh bye,

1470
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 1: like I said something in Romania and they were like what.

1471
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 3: I love it. I love that moment. I've done that

1472
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 3: many times in my life.

1473
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: It's great.

1474
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, because sir was my first language. I read, write, speak,

1475
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,640
Speaker 2: dance whatever. Romanian, I can understand it fluently and I

1476
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 2: can speak it back to say, like my grandma, she

1477
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 2: speaks at the most in our family, like good like

1478
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 2: fifty to sixty percent.

1479
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 3: But I really need to flex my.

1480
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: Romanian because when I have I want to make sure

1481
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: that they know how to speak Romanian.

1482
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:56,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's your dialect? Is it similar?

1483
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 3: So very similar, but it's more slangy.

1484
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 2: It's more like villain, which makes sense because we've moved

1485
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 2: around from India. So basically from what we've gathered from

1486
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 2: that report was that from India we had a migration

1487
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 2: moment to Northern Africa and then so in Egypt. Then

1488
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: from Egypt we made our way up to the Middle

1489
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,799
Speaker 2: East and through the Arabia, Lebanon, those sorts of places,

1490
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 2: and then we landed in Serbia.

1491
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. So we have a bit of a

1492
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 3: real mixed bag kind of thing.

1493
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 2: And I've got members of my family that can actually

1494
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 2: speak and we call it Gypsy, so they can actually

1495
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 2: speak Gypsy.

1496
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 3: And we love like Remenie gypsy music.

1497
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 2: And yes, I've got uncles in Serbia who like their

1498
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:38,799
Speaker 2: musicians and they sing in Gypsy.

1499
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,679
Speaker 3: It's amazing, it's so cool.

1500
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: Oh, you definitely need to talk about them. More's fascinating. Yeah,

1501
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 1: very last question, what's your favorite quote?

1502
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 2: So this is the only question that I looked at

1503
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 2: on the questions that you sent me, because I generally

1504
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 2: don't like to just I just go off the cuff normally,

1505
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 2: but I wanted to give you a good one. So

1506
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 2: when I was working at Cosmo, my editor Bronwan Makhan

1507
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 2: was counseling me to my really really big breakup and

1508
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 2: she said to me, Denny, in the end, it will

1509
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 2: all be okay.

1510
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 3: If it's not okay, it's not the end. I love

1511
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 3: that one and I'll never forget it.

1512
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,839
Speaker 2: And she's absolutely right, because sometimes life can be so cloudy,

1513
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,719
Speaker 2: such a shit storm, and you just think, for fuck's sake,

1514
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 2: give me a break, give me a break, Hanny, and

1515
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 2: then you go, it's okay, it's not the end.

1516
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 3: It's gonna be okay. In the end, it's not the end.

1517
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 3: Just keep going.

1518
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 1: My gosh, that is so beautiful and what an amazing

1519
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 1: way to end, Denny, Thank you so much. This has

1520
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: been such a joy hours.

1521
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 2: That has been the best conversation I've had, without a doubt,

1522
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 2: all months. Oh my gosh, You're a fucking delight and

1523
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 2: you just lose empathy, and you provide such a safe

1524
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 2: space to converse and it's like a pleasure to talk

1525
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 2: to you genuinely.

1526
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are so kind. I've loved this so much,

1527
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 1: and I when we believe that we need a reunion

1528
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: at point.

1529
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 3: Your phone number will lop in calm, We'll make this ship.

1530
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,839
Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you imagine it'll be the biggest

1531
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: blowout of all time?

1532
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, love so much, have a beautiful week.

1533
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,720
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I absolutely love how Denny allows us

1534
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,799
Speaker 1: all to explore new language and concepts without feeling judged

1535
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: or uncomfortable and create such a safe place for us

1536
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: to learn. They inspire me so much to continually honor

1537
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 1: who I really am and block out the noise or

1538
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: pressure that pulls us in all kinds of directions. What

1539
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: an incredible role model and wonderful human being who is

1540
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: such a joy to chat with. I highly recommend you

1541
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: follow their page for daily smiles and inspiration. The dancing

1542
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,680
Speaker 1: videos are incredible and if you enjoyed this, please do

1543
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: share the episode tagging at Style by Denny and Us

1544
01:13:56,320 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 1: with any takeaways or reflections. It means the world when

1545
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: Theihoborhood helps thank our guests for so generously giving us

1546
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 1: their time. Next up is our third anniversary Q and

1547
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 1: a episode with some of your voices featuring recording your

1548
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,639
Speaker 1: own questions that I'm so thrilled about and the questions

1549
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: have been such a good reflection starter, so I cannot

1550
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 1: wait to share that episode with you next week. I

1551
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: hope you're all having a wonderful week and just seizing

1552
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: your ya