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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Meyer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded.

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Speaker 1: On on the road. Again.

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Speaker 3: We are going on five, let's stop her from singing.

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Speaker 4: Out Louders who follow us Instagram or on Facebook might

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Speaker 4: have seen that. Yeah, we announced that the mum me

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Speaker 4: are out Loud twenty twenty five. All or Nothing to Us,

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Speaker 4: presented by Nivius Cellular is happening.

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Speaker 2: It's happening.

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Speaker 1: We are going to be coming to some places on

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Speaker 1: some dates.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, it's still a secret.

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Speaker 1: I'm not good at secrets, which is why I'm given

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Speaker 1: very little information.

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Speaker 2: They're all in May. The dates just so you can

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Speaker 2: you know that save the date, our dear clear calend.

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Speaker 2: They're just clean. If you're an out louder, all of it,

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Speaker 2: I promise only for a couple more hours.

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Speaker 1: If you live somewhere, don't be busy in May.

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Speaker 4: To be the first to know, make sure you sign

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Speaker 4: up to the out Louders News via the link in

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Speaker 4: the show notes for early access to tickets and all

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Speaker 4: the information you will need.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud. It is

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Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about today, which is Monday,

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Speaker 2: the second of December. And I am Hollywayin Wright, I'm

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Speaker 2: mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. Welcome to Sagittary's season.

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Speaker 4: Everybody is how many sleeps to my birthday?

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Speaker 2: About twenty year and all the December babies who are

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Speaker 2: like no one gives a shit about our birthdays, We've

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Speaker 2: got you anyway.

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Speaker 1: I'm really inconvenient. I have one of my own and

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Speaker 1: I'm not thrilled about having to do Christmas and birthday

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Speaker 1: and you too. It's too much. It's a big month anyway.

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Speaker 2: On the show today, if you thought extravagant debutante balls

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Speaker 2: were a bridgeton thing, Gwyneth Paltrow wants you to hold

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Speaker 2: her beer or her champagne as the case. Maybe. Also,

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Speaker 2: is bringing a new baby into the office a form

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Speaker 2: of psychological harassment? We discuss the new rules of workplace

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Speaker 2: safety and the anatomy of a rumor. The Harry and

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Speaker 2: Meghan divorce headlines have been pushed into unstoppable motion. But

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Speaker 2: why and how do you stop that damn countdown clock?

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Speaker 4: But first, in case you missed it, Australia's social media

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Speaker 4: ban is making headlines all over the world.

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Speaker 6: Well, while first in Australia, where Parliament there has given

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Speaker 6: a green light to a bill banning social media for

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Speaker 6: users under the age of sixteen.

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Speaker 1: I think it's good to have some sort of limitations

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Speaker 1: for younger kids because there's a lot of stuff online

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Speaker 1: which is quite dangerous and scary for young kids to see.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's good to have some sort of ban.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what would be the perfect age to

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Speaker 1: introduce people to social media.

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Speaker 2: It's good for.

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Speaker 1: These people in that age to knowld what's happening around

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 4: So on Thursday, the legislation that would ban any child

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Speaker 4: under the age of sixteen from using many social media

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Speaker 4: platforms officially passed through the Senate. The ban will come

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Speaker 4: into effect in late twenty twenty five. So the story

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Speaker 4: was covered everywhere from Russia to India to France, with

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Speaker 4: widespread support in the UK.

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Speaker 2: Everybody so excited about it. Are we the first with

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Speaker 2: the first?

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Speaker 5: We are the first?

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Speaker 4: So in France they do have a ban, except it

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Speaker 4: is between the parent and the child. It's not like

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Speaker 4: about tech companies, and that's under fifteen. This is the

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Speaker 4: oldest ban to have it at sixteen. In the UK,

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Speaker 4: the Technology Secretary said that they're looking at pursuing similar laws,

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Speaker 4: so they're watching very closely to be like we want

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Speaker 4: to do this.

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Speaker 1: I think the TAP's been turned on by Australia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're like the test case kind of everyone's going, oh,

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen.

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Speaker 4: France's Education minister said the same. Several other European leaders

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Speaker 4: have also expressed interest in this age ban.

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Speaker 5: Elon Musk has something to say.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's funny that he has been one of the

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Speaker 3: most outspoken critics, suggesting the ban is everything of everything,

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Speaker 3: that the ban is a backdoor way to control access

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Speaker 3: to the Internet by all Australians.

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Speaker 5: I don't even know what he means by that.

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Speaker 4: There was an interesting perspective offered by Will Guyett, who's

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Speaker 4: a tech journalist and former Facebook and Instagram employee, and

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Speaker 4: he said, I hadn't heard this before, that there's a

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Speaker 4: chance that social media companies will just abandon Australia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I wonder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the law means that tech giants, so say Meta,

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Speaker 4: will face fifty million dollars worth of fines if they

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Speaker 4: do not take reasonable steps to keep children off these platforms.

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Speaker 4: So the onus is on the tech giants, and he

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Speaker 4: explained that for these companies, Australia is a small, inconsequential market.

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Speaker 4: I don't care about Australia.

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Speaker 2: We are not the UI, don't have the population numbers

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Speaker 2: to may they did this.

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Speaker 1: Before because Australia was one of the first countries in

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Speaker 1: the world to say that Meta and the other tech

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Speaker 1: companies had to pay media companies to carry news and

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Speaker 1: so they just, you might remember, for a few days,

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Speaker 1: just shut off all access to news sites through their platforms.

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Speaker 4: And they can and that's what he's saying. There's nothing

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Speaker 4: stopping them from deciding that they're going to withdraw their

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Speaker 4: networks on that. Actually, I was listening to an Oxford

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Speaker 4: University professor say that there are also potential issues under

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Speaker 4: international law because there are real human rights implications. Australia

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Speaker 4: is a signatory to the UN Charter of the Rights

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Speaker 4: of the Child and young people have a right to

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Speaker 4: information and when sixty percent of young people in Australia

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Speaker 4: are getting their news from social media, then are we

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Speaker 4: depriving them of vital information?

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Speaker 2: Well, they can get information from other places, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know that necessarily being able to see whether your

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Speaker 2: mates are all gathering around the corner at Betty's house

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Speaker 2: on Snapchat is exactly what they have in mind when

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Speaker 2: they say the international human rights of the child.

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Speaker 5: No, it's very true, Holly. What do we actually know

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Speaker 5: about the plan? Well so far.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting because everybody in my world is talking

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Speaker 2: about this because we all have kids who are on

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Speaker 2: that tween teen either CUSP or in the middle of it.

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Speaker 2: So how far into the social media they already are

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Speaker 2: and whether or not that can be pulled back is

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Speaker 2: kind of one topic of conversation, And then the other

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Speaker 2: is like, has this handed a lot of ammunition to

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Speaker 2: parents who didn't want to give their kids social media?

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of how I feel about it in

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Speaker 2: a way, because my son is going to high school

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Speaker 2: in the new year, and that's in our family within

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Speaker 2: the time when you do get a phone. This has

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Speaker 2: completely changed my thoughts about what will be on that

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Speaker 2: phone and what access he'll have, because in twelve months time,

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Speaker 2: if all social media is going to be made illegal

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Speaker 2: f under SIXTEENES, that gives me a really strong case

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Speaker 2: of being able to just say we're not starting it

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Speaker 2: we're not doing it. But to everybody who says, how's

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Speaker 2: it going to work, how's it going to work? We

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Speaker 2: don't know that yet right What we do know, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, Jesse, is it's not going to be up

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Speaker 2: to the government to design the literal mechanisms of how

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Speaker 2: you're going to tell whether or not the kids are

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Speaker 2: old enough. That's going to be up to the platforms.

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Speaker 2: The government are paying a company a lot of money

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Speaker 2: to run a lot of tests to see what's the

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Speaker 2: most effective way to age gate. I found this really

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Speaker 2: interesting at the minute. There are three different ways that

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Speaker 2: you can successfully agate because lots of information is educated

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Speaker 2: on the internet. One is age verification, which is the

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Speaker 2: obvious one, which is show me your ID and we

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Speaker 2: will verify it. This company is running all these tests

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Speaker 2: to see whether it's sophisticated enough to be able to

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Speaker 2: pick up fakes. Then the other way is age estimation,

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Speaker 2: which is a tool that analyze your biological and behavioral

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Speaker 2: mannerisms to guess your age. There are some obvious drawbacks

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Speaker 2: to this. As our faces get older, this expert says,

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Speaker 2: our voices get deeper, our hands change, and we get wrinkles,

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Speaker 2: not always, not always, that's a way too. It's a

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Speaker 2: kind of AI scan that decides, and the other is

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Speaker 2: age inference, which is a way that they can assume

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Speaker 2: your age based on other information like your online purchase history,

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Speaker 2: browser behavior, or online activity. They're like, oh, she's bought

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Speaker 2: some sensible sandals lately, she must be bid.

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Speaker 1: I buy so many fidget toys and also presents lunar

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Speaker 1: that you're going to be blocked out. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: going to definitely, you're an excited and my clothes I

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Speaker 1: dressed like a toddler.

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Speaker 2: So what Basically there are places running. All these trials

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Speaker 2: are going to trial, like a thousand kids here and

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Speaker 2: a thousand kids are there to work out what might

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Speaker 2: be the most effective ways, and then it's going to

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Speaker 2: be up to the actual social media platforms to implement it.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of fascinating.

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Speaker 1: The annual Labale de Debutante happened in Paris over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: and according to images all over Instagram, it was held

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Speaker 1: at the intersection of Bridgeton, Coldplay and Goop. Yes, Apple Martin,

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Speaker 1: that's my favorite play twenty secs Where lives. Apple's the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Chris Martin and Gwyneth Paltrow and she is

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Speaker 1: entering her debutante era, which you may not have known

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Speaker 1: is still a thing in twenty twenty four, but oh,

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Speaker 1: how wrong you'd be. Here are the basics. It is

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Speaker 1: an annual fashion event really that introduces about twenty women

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Speaker 1: between the ages of sixteen and twenty two into society.

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Speaker 1: I don't really understand what society is, but it is

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Speaker 1: strictly by invitation only. You have to be personally selected

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Speaker 1: by a woman called Awfully Rennore, who invented a modern

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Speaker 1: version of the traditional old money habit of launching young

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Speaker 1: women into society that has been made famous in Bridgeston.

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Speaker 1: Girls are selected on things like let's be honest, power

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Speaker 1: and money an appearance. An appearance, Yes, they have to

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Speaker 1: be hot, rich, usually old money.

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Speaker 4: There's a criteria for the invitation. The criteria is attractive

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Speaker 4: in appearance, intelligence and famous parents. They're the three things.

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Speaker 1: They can be famous. They're often famous in the form

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Speaker 1: of because a lot of these girls are either the

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Speaker 1: daughters of royalty. They might have titles themselves.

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Speaker 4: Politics, entertainment, business.

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Speaker 1: Well, mostly it's not just a celebrity event. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: because every year there are a couple of honorary debs

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Speaker 1: who are basically the kids of famous people. So this

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Speaker 1: year it was Apple Martin and Lucia Ponti, who is

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Speaker 1: the granddaughter of the actress Sophia Lauren. And in the

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Speaker 1: past some of the NEPO babies that have been invited

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Speaker 1: include Lily Collins, Margaret Quali, Ava Philippe, who is the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Reese Witherspoon, and Scout Willis who is Demi

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Speaker 1: Moore and Bruce Willis's daughter. They've all made their deboos. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is just so wild to me. This has been

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Speaker 1: all over social media in the last twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: And in France, the traditional deb ball started in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty seven apparently and ended in seventy three before twenty

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Speaker 1: years later or fore Lee reinvented it and its purpose

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Speaker 1: this is important is to raise money for charities to

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Speaker 1: help young women. And on the website before I throw

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Speaker 1: to you Holy too, its exactly to unpack. That's its justification,

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Speaker 1: it says on the websit. Of course, now, due to

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Speaker 1: Facebook and other social media, the debs need not make

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Speaker 1: their social debuts. LaBelle is rather the unforgettable moment of

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Speaker 1: their couture and media premieres couture, meaning the kind of

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Speaker 1: handmade fashion where dresses cost tens of thousands of dollars.

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Speaker 1: Apple wore a custom Valentino gown which Vogue reports took

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Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty hours to make. Holly take it away.

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Speaker 1: These are your people, They're so not much fancy English people.

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Speaker 2: So the interesting thing about this is although it does

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Speaker 2: raise money for charity, this particular ball, it's actual purposes.

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Speaker 2: It's a PR event, right, So off Elly, who you

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Speaker 2: talked about before, she is a PR group And just

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Speaker 2: like think of Sylvie, my icon in Emily in Paris,

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Speaker 2: and she invented this ball in nineteen ninety four, as

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Speaker 2: you said, me as a means to be able to

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Speaker 2: basically PR luxury brands in France, so fashion houses, champagne,

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Speaker 2: jewelry hotels. So if you go and look at Labal's Instagram,

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Speaker 2: it's like the tag will be the Shangri La Paris

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Speaker 2: and this jewelry brand and dad, So it's become a

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Speaker 2: fashion event a lot of responses, She says. The reason

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Speaker 2: there are actually only twenty two girls maximum invited is

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Speaker 2: because there aren't enough coture gowns, like there are't enough

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Speaker 2: fashion houses for everyone to get one. Otherwise they don't

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Speaker 2: have to pay to go. They don't have to pay

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Speaker 2: for the dresses either of the girls. Everything on the

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Speaker 2: weekend is free. Right, It's literally a pr exercise. But

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Speaker 2: the genius of it is it mimics this old world

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Speaker 2: ritual that was a real thing, right, so debutantes, as

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Speaker 2: many people know, I'm sure, but in Britain it used

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Speaker 2: to be. And this is obviously what happens in Britain.

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Speaker 2: And at the beginning of the social season in the

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Speaker 2: northern summer, the aristocrat's latest batch of eligible daughters were

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Speaker 2: presented to the queen and they'd wear a white dress

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Speaker 2: and they'd all get presented to the Queen or the king.

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Speaker 2: But you know, Queen, by the time it stopped, they

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Speaker 2: get like a seal of approval. You've got a good family,

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Speaker 2: you're a pretty person. You're now out there, able to

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Speaker 2: be in the season, find yourself a husband, or to

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Speaker 2: meat market. It's a total meat market for the eligible

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Speaker 2: families of the high society.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: That stopped in nineteen fifty eight, although they still go.

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Speaker 2: They've now haven't been blessed by the queen since then.

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Speaker 2: In that year when it was canceled. The Queen and

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Speaker 2: Prince Philip had to meet like fifteen hundred debs. Can

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Speaker 2: you imagine, Like that's its sort of origin, and the

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Speaker 2: idea was an ideal world. In that very first season,

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Speaker 2: posh lady would meet posh man and get married. If

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Speaker 2: you did like two or three seasons, you were considered

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Speaker 2: a little bit like old bread on.

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Speaker 1: The shelf, so like a dating Appeah.

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Speaker 2: So the origins of this, you know, the obvious reasons

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Speaker 2: why it's kind of been phased out, even though there

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Speaker 2: are lots of events like that in England still, including

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Speaker 2: one called the Queen Charlott's Ball where they all kind

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Speaker 2: of curtsey to her an effigy sort of thing. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: the genius of the Paris Ball is that they've taken

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Speaker 2: that idea, put it in the capital of high fashion,

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Speaker 2: tied it with capitalism, sold it to sold it to sponsors,

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Speaker 2: and now all the fancy people want to be in

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Speaker 2: it because actually, and the interesting thing about this to

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Speaker 2: me is the choice to do it. Yes, you already

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Speaker 2: listed all those celebrities who presumably felt it was something

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Speaker 2: that their daughters would have loved, and reading some of

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Speaker 2: the experiences from the debutantes say, it's amazing. It's like

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Speaker 2: being in the Princess Diaries. You know, you turn up

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Speaker 2: in Paris, You're like whisked around and dressed and glam

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Speaker 2: and it's all. I mean a lot of these people

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Speaker 2: probably live like that quite a bit of the time,

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Speaker 2: so they love that. But the choice to do it

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Speaker 2: is interesting because you would argue that in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: being part of that super elite has never been uncooler

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Speaker 2: and more problematic. Right, So I was really surprised when

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Speaker 2: obviously I follow everything that my favorite Gwyneth does, and

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Speaker 2: when I saw this all over her Instagram, I was

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Speaker 2: really surprised. I can't believe a lot of time pretending

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Speaker 2: that they're normal.

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Speaker 5: See, I can't believe you're surprised.

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Speaker 4: I looked at it and went, interesting, choice, because people

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Speaker 4: are going to want hate you, and you saw the

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Speaker 4: internet do that very very quickly. You are standing in

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Speaker 4: a room of the established elite. These people are rich,

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Speaker 4: they're beautiful. You've been invited to this thing. You're in

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Speaker 4: this ball gown. Yeah, like that's not aspirational. People find

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Speaker 4: it generally irritating, But I think that when you are

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Speaker 4: in this like microcosmo when you're a member of the elite.

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Speaker 5: I don't think you have a sense of that.

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Speaker 4: I don't think you necessarily have a sense of those optics.

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Speaker 2: Quinnith would have a sense of it, but she leans

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Speaker 2: into it, right because she's always being accused of being

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Speaker 2: part of the elite, and like, look at you selling

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Speaker 2: your candles for two hundred dollars, look at you with

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Speaker 2: your double spa and your boyfriend breakfast and blah blah.

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Speaker 2: But it's interesting that you would choose to lean to

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Speaker 2: in particularly even now in the current climate.

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Speaker 4: Well I read I think it was a tweet or

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Speaker 4: something that said, is the dead ball making a comeback?

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Speaker 4: High fashion, the dating world's a cesspool, and marriage is aspirational.

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Speaker 5: Again, I was like, maybe it's like a gen Z

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Speaker 5: thing that it may.

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Speaker 1: It's so uncool that it's cool. Because I was also

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Speaker 1: shocked for the same reasons that you a whole.

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Speaker 2: What shocked me more.

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Speaker 1: Was Chris Martin being part of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, so Dad has to dance with you. It's very long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was there, Moses the brother was there.

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Speaker 1: It's very I mean patriarchal, sort of doesn't even begin.

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Speaker 1: It's like all of these young women who all conform

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Speaker 1: to a certain beauty standard, who are all, as we said,

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Speaker 1: like the one percent of the one percent, who were

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Speaker 1: then matched with some random high falutin guy. Not only

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Speaker 1: does it feel tone deaf, I always look for the

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Speaker 1: most charitable interpretation, right, So I'm like, benefit of the doubt. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't cost anything to be part of it.

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Speaker 1: You get it all for free, which I didn't realize.

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Speaker 5: And you're raising money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's clear how the.

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Speaker 1: Money's been raised.

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Speaker 2: There is a charitable element, no question. I imagine that

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Speaker 2: hefty donations are encouraged. I would hate.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it seems just very thirsty.

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Speaker 1: I understand, like, you know, it's nice to be on

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Speaker 1: a list of the most eligible women young women in

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Speaker 1: the world, Like that's cool. But by going and participating

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Speaker 1: in it all, it really says, yeah, we ascribe to

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Speaker 1: these values which value a young woman. It's not her achievements,

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Speaker 1: because she's between sixteen and twenty. She hasn't got the

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Speaker 1: achievements yet. It's not about her personality. It's not about

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Speaker 1: her intelligence, let's be clear, let's be honest. It's about

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Speaker 1: her connections and her eligibility for marriage.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I would imagine that it's approached as a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a networking event. There's a lot of power

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Speaker 4: in it.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine that would be?

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Speaker 5: So then you go, okay, so you're.

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Speaker 1: One of the girls, and these none of these girls,

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Speaker 1: I imagine, would do it against their will, So like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll meet some interesting people, I'll get a free dress,

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Speaker 1: I'll get to be a princess, which is fine, but

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Speaker 1: what surprises me? And I felt the same way about

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Speaker 1: Sunday Kidman Urban who walks the catwork for mew and

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Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. She's sixteen. Apple's a bit older.

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Speaker 1: She's twenty, So there is a difference there, but it's

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Speaker 1: still really exposing them to oh, just the horribleness of

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Speaker 1: the internet and public commentary. It's not about judging the

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Speaker 1: girls or judging whatever. But as mothers as Nicole Kidman

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Speaker 1: and Gwyneth Paltrow, who know what that kind of scrutiny brings.

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Speaker 1: When you hold yourself up as being part of this

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Speaker 1: beauty standard, as being part of the elite, you will

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Speaker 1: be attacked. And of course it's already happened there. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a TikTok going round of Apple supposedly pushing another

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Speaker 1: girl out of the way to get a photo. When

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Speaker 1: you actually look at the video, that's not really what

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Speaker 1: was happening. But the Internet doesn't care about the truth.

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Speaker 1: It's like she's going to be demonized in the same

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Speaker 1: way Sunday Urban was attacked for not walking right, Like,

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Speaker 1: why would you want your daughter to be under.

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Speaker 4: That kind of a twenty year old I don't reckon

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Speaker 4: that you have any control over. These are women with

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Speaker 4: agency who are twenty like they if they want to

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Speaker 4: walk a catwalk, or if they want to turn up

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Speaker 4: to this, they're going to do it with or without

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Speaker 4: your blessing. Like I think that's just the case. But

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Speaker 4: I think it's also worth acknowledging the whole deb thing.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of our listeners who are going,

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Speaker 4: I did my deb Like recently, I just stassed around

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Speaker 4: the office and interesting.

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Speaker 2: What's the Australian deb So it's, you know, British.

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Speaker 5: It's been handed down from.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but it is often in the country and often

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Speaker 4: public schools, so it's interesting that it's been divorced a

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Speaker 4: little bit from the aristocratic upper.

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Speaker 2: Class, kind of like a formal but yes.

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Speaker 4: So I was speaking to Grace here who year ten

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Speaker 4: and year twelve, You've got your formal you're eleven, you

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Speaker 4: have your deb and you learn a dance with a

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Speaker 4: boy and then you go and do it. It's like

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Speaker 4: a formalized and they all wear like white wedding dresses

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Speaker 4: and it is.

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Speaker 2: It's the traditional debutante.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like being presented to society. So isn't I mean

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Speaker 4: that's what all Martin has done is just that on steroids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was trying to go.

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Speaker 2: Isn't like a butt mitzvah, like.

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Speaker 1: The Jewish ritual of when a boy a girl as

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Speaker 1: abut mitzvah, boy as a bar mitzvah when they're about

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Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen. But that's different. That's kind of the

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Speaker 1: cusp of becoming a child to becoming an adult or

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Speaker 1: you know, not that you're an adult at twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 1: but it's that's different to this. And then I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I think the thing it's most like is when clear

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Speaker 1: I used to do Australia's fifteen Most Eligible Bachelors and

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Speaker 1: used to have to used to say, oh, here are

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Speaker 1: the criteria, but it was actually just that they were

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Speaker 1: horsh I think it's like a beauty pageant, and you'll

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Speaker 1: take lots of sponsorship money.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because beauty pageants also have a charitable element.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot like a beauty pageant, even in

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Speaker 2: the way. I was looking at the instagram Lebels Instagram

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Speaker 2: and it's like, as they run up to the event,

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Speaker 2: they post some of the girls, some of the young

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Speaker 2: women who it's going to be, and there was another

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Speaker 2: American young woman called Peyton, and it's like, here comes Peyton,

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Speaker 2: the American darling from San Francisco, selecting her dold Tangabana gown.

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Speaker 2: Labal celebrates excellence, the empowering of women, and the harmony

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Speaker 2: between this very like beauty pageant language, isn't it?

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Speaker 4: Did we think that Apple Martin was going to her

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Speaker 4: formal and getting shit faced like that was.

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Speaker 2: Not going to be a college right? And the thing

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Speaker 2: that's interesting to me again is this, I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: Apple Martin is a very intelligent, accomplished young person. How

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Speaker 2: could she not be right with all the opportunities she's

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Speaker 2: been afforded and brainy parents and all the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: But it just seems interesting to me that you would

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Speaker 2: so publicly step into this space not that it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be amazing fun to do it, and in a way

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Speaker 2: me you know when you said, why would you expose

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Speaker 2: your kids to that kind of scrutiny? I guess if

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Speaker 2: you're worried about that, you'd never do anything right. You

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Speaker 2: just do no experiences, no opportunities, no risks because this

435
00:21:53,327 --> 00:21:55,887
Speaker 2: is so public. Yeah, it seems to be like an

436
00:21:55,887 --> 00:21:58,647
Speaker 2: open goal. I could read a carpet, so it's like going,

437
00:21:58,967 --> 00:22:01,687
Speaker 2: come at me, come have it. And Gwyneth does that,

438
00:22:01,847 --> 00:22:04,047
Speaker 2: She's done it before. She did it with a vagina candle.

439
00:22:04,087 --> 00:22:05,007
Speaker 2: She does it with a sex toy.

440
00:22:05,367 --> 00:22:06,127
Speaker 1: That's admirable.

441
00:22:06,487 --> 00:22:08,967
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just feels like another time.

442
00:22:09,367 --> 00:22:13,007
Speaker 1: After the break. Could seeing children in the workplace be traumatic?

443
00:22:23,807 --> 00:22:26,567
Speaker 4: I don't want to see babies in the office. That

444
00:22:26,727 --> 00:22:29,167
Speaker 4: was a gripe written into the Sydney Morning Herald advice

445
00:22:29,207 --> 00:22:33,087
Speaker 4: column last week. The dilemma concerned a woman who had

446
00:22:33,087 --> 00:22:37,287
Speaker 4: a history of failed IVF and multiple miscarriages, who was

447
00:22:37,327 --> 00:22:40,207
Speaker 4: coming to terms with not being able to have children,

448
00:22:40,287 --> 00:22:45,047
Speaker 4: which her workplace was aware of. She explained, last week

449
00:22:45,207 --> 00:22:47,967
Speaker 4: someone brought their baby into the office, which is fine,

450
00:22:48,207 --> 00:22:50,367
Speaker 4: but they stayed by my desk for half an hour

451
00:22:50,607 --> 00:22:53,407
Speaker 4: with the whole office gushing over the baby. I had

452
00:22:53,447 --> 00:22:55,927
Speaker 4: a panic attack because I felt I couldn't escape and

453
00:22:56,087 --> 00:22:59,287
Speaker 4: was overwhelmed with grief. She told her manager that she

454
00:22:59,327 --> 00:23:01,167
Speaker 4: did not want to be put in that situation again.

455
00:23:01,407 --> 00:23:04,567
Speaker 4: Her manager said that they are not able to guarantee

456
00:23:04,567 --> 00:23:08,607
Speaker 4: her request. Surely, she finished the letter, I am entitled

457
00:23:08,647 --> 00:23:12,327
Speaker 4: to feel safe at my desk. This dilemma is part

458
00:23:12,367 --> 00:23:15,567
Speaker 4: of a larger shift when it comes to human resources

459
00:23:15,607 --> 00:23:20,327
Speaker 4: departments in workplaces. Amy Gallo, who's a workplace expert, says

460
00:23:20,327 --> 00:23:24,847
Speaker 4: that while once the focus was primarily on physical safety

461
00:23:24,967 --> 00:23:29,087
Speaker 4: let's say, not getting injured fire drills, your ergonomic chair,

462
00:23:29,727 --> 00:23:33,167
Speaker 4: the focus is now on something called psychological safety. And

463
00:23:33,207 --> 00:23:36,807
Speaker 4: the definition of psychological safety is very important because it's

464
00:23:36,807 --> 00:23:39,367
Speaker 4: a shared belief that it's okay to take risks, to

465
00:23:39,487 --> 00:23:42,607
Speaker 4: express ideas and concerns, to speak up with questions, and

466
00:23:42,687 --> 00:23:47,487
Speaker 4: admit mistakes without fear or negative consequences. It's interesting that

467
00:23:47,487 --> 00:23:50,807
Speaker 4: that dilemma used the word safety. It said, I'm entitled

468
00:23:50,807 --> 00:23:52,007
Speaker 4: to feel safe at my desk.

469
00:23:52,567 --> 00:23:52,807
Speaker 2: Maya.

470
00:23:52,887 --> 00:23:54,167
Speaker 5: Do you think she has a point?

471
00:23:54,687 --> 00:23:58,007
Speaker 1: My heart breaks for her because I've been her, and

472
00:23:58,087 --> 00:24:04,007
Speaker 1: I know what it feels like to you know, Triggered

473
00:24:04,047 --> 00:24:06,927
Speaker 1: is a word that's used and ridiculed a lot, but

474
00:24:08,007 --> 00:24:11,407
Speaker 1: it can just add absolutely break your heart. It can,

475
00:24:12,047 --> 00:24:15,007
Speaker 1: so I don't want to dismiss her distress. I think

476
00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:18,727
Speaker 1: it's real do I think the onus is probably on

477
00:24:18,807 --> 00:24:22,167
Speaker 1: her to remove herself from that situation because it's just

478
00:24:22,247 --> 00:24:27,527
Speaker 1: not feasible for a workplace to protect you from everything

479
00:24:27,567 --> 00:24:30,367
Speaker 1: that you might feel is upsetting. It's not really possible

480
00:24:30,407 --> 00:24:33,807
Speaker 1: for anyone to do that. That's what makes grief and

481
00:24:33,887 --> 00:24:36,767
Speaker 1: trauma's so difficult and so challenging. You never know what's

482
00:24:36,807 --> 00:24:39,207
Speaker 1: going to trigger you, and you know you're in a workplace.

483
00:24:39,247 --> 00:24:41,967
Speaker 1: You wouldn't think that there would be babies there, but

484
00:24:42,007 --> 00:24:44,247
Speaker 1: that's an example of how there is. And I think

485
00:24:44,287 --> 00:24:47,247
Speaker 1: that that's a lovely thing for a lot of people

486
00:24:47,287 --> 00:24:50,727
Speaker 1: and an important thing. You know, as employers, when people

487
00:24:50,767 --> 00:24:54,687
Speaker 1: go on maternity leave, you want to encourage them to

488
00:24:54,687 --> 00:24:56,927
Speaker 1: be able because everyone wants to see the baby, and

489
00:24:57,207 --> 00:25:00,047
Speaker 1: you want to encourage them to not feel isolated and

490
00:25:00,087 --> 00:25:03,167
Speaker 1: cut off while they're at home. So, in that sense,

491
00:25:03,927 --> 00:25:08,167
Speaker 1: employers have a lot of conflicting responsibilities to a lot

492
00:25:08,207 --> 00:25:10,927
Speaker 1: of different people in the world workplace. I think the

493
00:25:11,007 --> 00:25:14,127
Speaker 1: idea of psychological safety is really interesting because we're hearing

494
00:25:14,167 --> 00:25:19,487
Speaker 1: it more and more in universities, in classrooms and in workplaces.

495
00:25:19,767 --> 00:25:24,807
Speaker 1: And I think it's this sense of we want our

496
00:25:25,007 --> 00:25:29,447
Speaker 1: workplace and anyone in a position of power to be

497
00:25:29,647 --> 00:25:33,687
Speaker 1: our protectors, like to be our parents, and I just

498
00:25:33,727 --> 00:25:36,047
Speaker 1: don't think that's possible. A lot of it's interested to

499
00:25:36,047 --> 00:25:37,487
Speaker 1: put on to outsource, you know.

500
00:25:37,767 --> 00:25:40,167
Speaker 4: I think that's the interpretation, and I don't think it's

501
00:25:40,167 --> 00:25:44,207
Speaker 4: actually what psychological safety means. Because to me, if you

502
00:25:44,487 --> 00:25:47,847
Speaker 4: are in a workplace where you felt safe or empowered

503
00:25:47,927 --> 00:25:50,287
Speaker 4: enough to say what this person managed to say to

504
00:25:50,327 --> 00:25:53,527
Speaker 4: her manager, which is I felt really uncomfortable, I think

505
00:25:53,607 --> 00:25:54,927
Speaker 4: you have psychological safety.

506
00:25:54,927 --> 00:25:58,247
Speaker 2: And what do you think psychological safety does mean.

507
00:25:58,607 --> 00:26:01,487
Speaker 4: It means that you feel like you can take risks,

508
00:26:02,007 --> 00:26:04,887
Speaker 4: that you feel supported, that people aren't out to get you,

509
00:26:05,287 --> 00:26:06,527
Speaker 4: that there's open.

510
00:26:08,047 --> 00:26:10,887
Speaker 2: To speak your mind, You feel like you're not going

511
00:26:10,927 --> 00:26:11,887
Speaker 2: to be victimized.

512
00:26:12,287 --> 00:26:12,527
Speaker 5: Yes.

513
00:26:12,687 --> 00:26:17,487
Speaker 4: Right, And there's really interesting caveats because they say it

514
00:26:17,527 --> 00:26:20,767
Speaker 4: doesn't mean you never feel uncomfortable, and it doesn't mean

515
00:26:21,127 --> 00:26:23,607
Speaker 4: you know you're never told you're wrong. In fact, it's

516
00:26:23,647 --> 00:26:26,727
Speaker 4: about having candor. If you're in a place where you

517
00:26:26,767 --> 00:26:30,127
Speaker 4: don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. That's often not psychologically

518
00:26:30,167 --> 00:26:33,527
Speaker 4: safe because a bully can get away with anything because

519
00:26:33,567 --> 00:26:35,527
Speaker 4: no one says, hey, the way you're talking to people

520
00:26:35,647 --> 00:26:39,567
Speaker 4: isn't appropriate or whatever. Like every workplace, there are going

521
00:26:39,607 --> 00:26:42,447
Speaker 4: to be feelings of discomfort, and in this like, I

522
00:26:42,487 --> 00:26:45,647
Speaker 4: think her speaking to a manager was actually a really

523
00:26:45,847 --> 00:26:48,567
Speaker 4: brave thing to do, and I would want to know

524
00:26:48,647 --> 00:26:50,927
Speaker 4: that because no one wants to intentionally hurt you.

525
00:26:51,207 --> 00:26:53,887
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does put and I agree with you

526
00:26:54,087 --> 00:26:55,967
Speaker 2: that I think that that's great that she could do that.

527
00:26:56,007 --> 00:26:59,247
Speaker 2: But then what the manager then does with that. Sometimes

528
00:26:59,367 --> 00:27:03,727
Speaker 2: as a manager, you feel like your job is everybody

529
00:27:03,767 --> 00:27:05,927
Speaker 2: just brings you their little piles of poo. I do

530
00:27:06,247 --> 00:27:08,447
Speaker 2: when I say that, I don't mean that her no

531
00:27:08,527 --> 00:27:11,527
Speaker 2: particularly isn't valid or is a pile of pooh. But

532
00:27:11,567 --> 00:27:13,967
Speaker 2: what I mean is their problems, right, Yeah, everybody just

533
00:27:14,007 --> 00:27:16,367
Speaker 2: comes to you with all their problems. That person was

534
00:27:16,447 --> 00:27:18,847
Speaker 2: mean to me. I don't really like this part of

535
00:27:18,847 --> 00:27:21,327
Speaker 2: my job. I think I should get paid more. Someone

536
00:27:21,407 --> 00:27:23,327
Speaker 2: commented on my food in the kitchen, and now I

537
00:27:23,367 --> 00:27:25,847
Speaker 2: feel like they think I'm fat. So as a manager,

538
00:27:25,847 --> 00:27:28,447
Speaker 2: sometimes you feel like you're sitting at your desk with

539
00:27:28,567 --> 00:27:30,727
Speaker 2: just this big pile of poo, and you're like, how

540
00:27:30,767 --> 00:27:32,607
Speaker 2: do I I.

541
00:27:32,527 --> 00:27:35,447
Speaker 1: Love how many of your analogies involve facings whole, but

542
00:27:35,487 --> 00:27:36,887
Speaker 1: they really are effective.

543
00:27:38,127 --> 00:27:40,567
Speaker 2: Now I have to remove each one of these, you

544
00:27:40,607 --> 00:27:42,327
Speaker 2: know what I mean, until I can do my job

545
00:27:42,407 --> 00:27:45,527
Speaker 2: because it's covering pooh. It's literally covering my keyboard and

546
00:27:45,607 --> 00:27:50,247
Speaker 2: my computer screen. So it's tricky. But a good manager

547
00:27:50,807 --> 00:27:54,287
Speaker 2: isn't phased by that, can talk very honestly to someone

548
00:27:54,327 --> 00:27:57,847
Speaker 2: in this is a very sensitive situation, this particular one, right,

549
00:27:57,887 --> 00:28:00,887
Speaker 2: it's very sensitive, as you've beautifully articulated me or I

550
00:28:00,927 --> 00:28:03,367
Speaker 2: don't need to say it again, but like everybody knows

551
00:28:03,407 --> 00:28:06,287
Speaker 2: that this is a really valid concern. But also it's

552
00:28:06,327 --> 00:28:09,127
Speaker 2: really important that the people who go away and have

553
00:28:09,367 --> 00:28:11,847
Speaker 2: babies still feel part of the workplace, right, Like that

554
00:28:11,927 --> 00:28:14,447
Speaker 2: connection is really important, and we are always saying to people,

555
00:28:14,767 --> 00:28:16,887
Speaker 2: bring your whole self to work, and you're not the

556
00:28:16,927 --> 00:28:19,487
Speaker 2: same person anyway. We've got a baby. But but so the

557
00:28:19,567 --> 00:28:21,607
Speaker 2: manager who's sitting there with all the different poos has

558
00:28:21,647 --> 00:28:24,487
Speaker 2: to work out where to put them, and it's really

559
00:28:24,567 --> 00:28:28,287
Speaker 2: hard because everybody's different and everybody's level of I don't

560
00:28:28,527 --> 00:28:30,967
Speaker 2: say the word resilience in a judgy way, like, I

561
00:28:30,967 --> 00:28:33,367
Speaker 2: don't think this person has resilience. But some people can

562
00:28:33,447 --> 00:28:36,847
Speaker 2: handle saying to somebody in the kitchen who comments on

563
00:28:36,887 --> 00:28:38,847
Speaker 2: their food like none of your business when I'm eating,

564
00:28:39,287 --> 00:28:42,247
Speaker 2: like move on. And some people will bottle that up

565
00:28:42,287 --> 00:28:44,887
Speaker 2: and feel it all day long, and it's really difficult

566
00:28:45,807 --> 00:28:49,447
Speaker 2: most of the time. Managers are not psychologists. They're in

567
00:28:49,487 --> 00:28:51,567
Speaker 2: their position because they were good at what they did

568
00:28:51,607 --> 00:28:52,887
Speaker 2: when they did it. And this is one of things

569
00:28:52,927 --> 00:28:54,967
Speaker 2: that's changing about the workplace, and I think for a

570
00:28:55,047 --> 00:28:58,047
Speaker 2: good reason is that now I think we're recognizing that

571
00:28:58,127 --> 00:29:00,327
Speaker 2: managers aren't necessarily the person who is just good at

572
00:29:00,327 --> 00:29:03,167
Speaker 2: doing the job, but is really good with people and

573
00:29:03,247 --> 00:29:05,527
Speaker 2: is open to learning and is open to listening and

574
00:29:05,567 --> 00:29:08,647
Speaker 2: figuring out how to deal with this. Just because you

575
00:29:08,687 --> 00:29:11,487
Speaker 2: were once at the job that your staff are doing now,

576
00:29:11,527 --> 00:29:14,767
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that you're in any way qualified or

577
00:29:14,847 --> 00:29:18,047
Speaker 2: able to offer psychological advice to a woman who's struggling

578
00:29:18,087 --> 00:29:20,927
Speaker 2: with infertility. That's like a different ballgame, right.

579
00:29:21,607 --> 00:29:23,887
Speaker 1: I watch a lot of her advice. That expert that

580
00:29:23,967 --> 00:29:28,287
Speaker 1: you mentioned. She does a series on YouTube's American and

581
00:29:28,327 --> 00:29:31,767
Speaker 1: she works for the Harvard business school and often does

582
00:29:31,887 --> 00:29:34,527
Speaker 1: really helpful practical bits of advice.

583
00:29:34,887 --> 00:29:35,287
Speaker 2: She does.

584
00:29:35,367 --> 00:29:38,167
Speaker 4: One on which I really liked it was a newsletter

585
00:29:38,327 --> 00:29:42,167
Speaker 4: where she wrote about how gossiping can be really helpful

586
00:29:42,167 --> 00:29:45,487
Speaker 4: to a workplace, and it's often seen that traditionally it's

587
00:29:45,527 --> 00:29:49,047
Speaker 4: seen as toxic and corrosive, but in fact there are

588
00:29:49,087 --> 00:29:52,287
Speaker 4: good types of gossiping and bad types of gossiping, and

589
00:29:52,807 --> 00:29:55,647
Speaker 4: the good ones she said, Well, the upsides to gossip

590
00:29:55,807 --> 00:29:58,527
Speaker 4: is that it helps form bonds and can give you

591
00:29:58,647 --> 00:30:02,087
Speaker 4: access to important information. So, for example, if you get

592
00:30:02,087 --> 00:30:04,127
Speaker 4: an email and you go, I don't know what this

593
00:30:04,167 --> 00:30:06,487
Speaker 4: email's telling me to do, turning to the person next

594
00:30:06,527 --> 00:30:08,807
Speaker 4: to you and saying is this vague? Does this read

595
00:30:08,847 --> 00:30:12,047
Speaker 4: as vague to you? Is actually a really important way

596
00:30:12,087 --> 00:30:13,167
Speaker 4: of connecting what's.

597
00:30:13,047 --> 00:30:15,767
Speaker 1: The difference between gossiping and bitching? Though, because she said,

598
00:30:16,127 --> 00:30:18,687
Speaker 1: You've got to be careful because it can become stigmatizing.

599
00:30:19,047 --> 00:30:22,687
Speaker 1: If you and Jane bond over the fact that Angela

600
00:30:23,007 --> 00:30:25,807
Speaker 1: is a bit of a dick or interrupts in meetings,

601
00:30:26,247 --> 00:30:30,287
Speaker 1: then suddenly everything Angela does you'll start seeing through that

602
00:30:30,407 --> 00:30:32,367
Speaker 1: lens in it'll become a self fulfilling prophecy.

603
00:30:32,487 --> 00:30:35,447
Speaker 4: And she had this filter, which is like is it

604
00:30:35,527 --> 00:30:39,247
Speaker 4: helping or is it hurting? So if you're sitting in

605
00:30:39,287 --> 00:30:42,327
Speaker 4: a meeting and you need something clarified, or you say,

606
00:30:42,847 --> 00:30:45,647
Speaker 4: say you're talking about a CEO and like I feel

607
00:30:45,687 --> 00:30:48,047
Speaker 4: as though I can't capture he's or her attention, how

608
00:30:48,047 --> 00:30:50,047
Speaker 4: do you whatever it is? And it's like that's helping

609
00:30:50,087 --> 00:30:53,207
Speaker 4: and that's a productive thing. But the other element is

610
00:30:53,607 --> 00:30:57,127
Speaker 4: confirmation bias. So if I go, have you noticed that

611
00:30:57,247 --> 00:31:00,807
Speaker 4: Holly is always da da da da da.

612
00:31:00,327 --> 00:31:03,167
Speaker 1: Talking about feces? Yeah, she's talking about PC.

613
00:31:03,527 --> 00:31:05,567
Speaker 5: Yes, And I don't want to help Holly with that.

614
00:31:05,807 --> 00:31:08,087
Speaker 2: All the time, skirt got a problem.

615
00:31:08,127 --> 00:31:10,487
Speaker 4: I just want to stigmatize her. And then you start

616
00:31:10,567 --> 00:31:12,407
Speaker 4: noticing it because I brought it up, and then I

617
00:31:12,447 --> 00:31:14,607
Speaker 4: spread it again and spread yes, she said it again,

618
00:31:14,647 --> 00:31:18,607
Speaker 4: and then it's like an absolute I've had war against Holly.

619
00:31:19,047 --> 00:31:19,847
Speaker 5: Then that's not.

620
00:31:19,967 --> 00:31:22,007
Speaker 2: Holly is feeling really vulnerable now?

621
00:31:23,127 --> 00:31:26,127
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And then we talked again the nickname Holy

622
00:31:26,207 --> 00:31:26,807
Speaker 1: the ship talk.

623
00:31:28,367 --> 00:31:29,647
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for the feedback.

624
00:31:29,847 --> 00:31:31,287
Speaker 1: Great, I'd love your feedback.

625
00:31:31,887 --> 00:31:35,887
Speaker 2: What a gift. I have some festive feedback since my

626
00:31:35,967 --> 00:31:38,727
Speaker 2: last batch of festive feedback went down really well. I

627
00:31:38,807 --> 00:31:40,807
Speaker 2: talked about Christmas trees and when you should put them up.

628
00:31:41,327 --> 00:31:43,367
Speaker 2: I don't want to get a reputation for as a grinch,

629
00:31:43,407 --> 00:31:45,207
Speaker 2: because I actually do love Christmas. But I have some

630
00:31:45,327 --> 00:31:49,967
Speaker 2: feedback about Advent calendars very timely when I was a kid,

631
00:31:50,127 --> 00:31:54,207
Speaker 2: because I do love Christmas, despite what they say about me, Mia,

632
00:31:54,327 --> 00:31:56,527
Speaker 2: I do love Christmas and December the first was always

633
00:31:56,567 --> 00:31:58,807
Speaker 2: very exciting because when you got your Advent calendar right

634
00:31:58,887 --> 00:32:00,847
Speaker 2: and you opened your little doors, and when I was

635
00:32:00,887 --> 00:32:06,647
Speaker 2: a kid, you'd go, oh, there's a picture of a train, yay.

636
00:32:05,807 --> 00:32:08,087
Speaker 1: And then you went outside and played with two rocks.

637
00:32:07,847 --> 00:32:11,807
Speaker 2: And then stayed open. Oh there's a gingerbread man. And

638
00:32:12,127 --> 00:32:14,167
Speaker 2: the excitement would build all the way to the twenty

639
00:32:14,167 --> 00:32:16,487
Speaker 2: fourth when you've got double doors on the Advent calendar

640
00:32:16,487 --> 00:32:17,927
Speaker 2: and you open them and there might be a little

641
00:32:17,927 --> 00:32:20,647
Speaker 2: baby Jesus in there. Just all pictures, all pictures.

642
00:32:20,687 --> 00:32:26,447
Speaker 4: That's the saddest of your upbringing in Manchester, just being

643
00:32:26,527 --> 00:32:28,887
Speaker 4: a sad snow it's dark all the time and there's

644
00:32:28,967 --> 00:32:31,047
Speaker 4: cold in paying.

645
00:32:32,927 --> 00:32:35,927
Speaker 1: Toy hadumps of coin. I wrapped them up and put

646
00:32:35,927 --> 00:32:36,687
Speaker 1: them under the tree.

647
00:32:37,007 --> 00:32:39,687
Speaker 2: I still loved my Advent calendar for that reason. Their

648
00:32:39,727 --> 00:32:41,447
Speaker 2: Advent Caldor's got chocolates in them?

649
00:32:41,527 --> 00:32:41,687
Speaker 4: Right?

650
00:32:41,807 --> 00:32:44,007
Speaker 2: My kids have always had Advent calendars with little chocolates

651
00:32:44,007 --> 00:32:46,607
Speaker 2: in them. I've grumbled about it, like the crunchy person have,

652
00:32:46,807 --> 00:32:49,487
Speaker 2: Oh we have to give them chocolate, now, do we? Oh?

653
00:32:49,767 --> 00:32:52,687
Speaker 2: How little I knew that just a short time later

654
00:32:53,127 --> 00:32:56,207
Speaker 2: Advent calendars had to have beer in them, or beauty

655
00:32:56,247 --> 00:32:59,727
Speaker 2: products in them, or perfume in them, or candles in them.

656
00:33:00,167 --> 00:33:03,087
Speaker 2: Because the how Jesse? Am I right that even in

657
00:33:03,127 --> 00:33:05,407
Speaker 2: your house, where there is no child who is yet

658
00:33:05,967 --> 00:33:09,127
Speaker 2: sentiment about Christmas, you have an Advent calendar in your fridge.

659
00:33:09,367 --> 00:33:11,927
Speaker 4: Yes, so I can't fit in any of the food

660
00:33:12,367 --> 00:33:14,967
Speaker 4: I'm trying to prepare for Luna's week because our fridge

661
00:33:15,007 --> 00:33:16,967
Speaker 4: is taken over by a beer Advent calendar.

662
00:33:17,247 --> 00:33:19,327
Speaker 5: I didn't know there were twelve different types.

663
00:33:18,967 --> 00:33:23,927
Speaker 1: Of beer beer calendar that Luca bought for himself. I

664
00:33:23,967 --> 00:33:26,687
Speaker 1: think it also what alarms me the feedback I have

665
00:33:26,847 --> 00:33:30,967
Speaker 1: Advent calendars is the creep of Christmas. Like I know

666
00:33:31,087 --> 00:33:34,127
Speaker 1: that Holly was grinchy last week when or whenever it

667
00:33:34,207 --> 00:33:36,327
Speaker 1: was when she got canceled for telling people they had

668
00:33:36,367 --> 00:33:38,247
Speaker 1: no class if they put their trees up before Miss

669
00:33:38,287 --> 00:33:42,687
Speaker 1: December and many of us, myself included, went and put

670
00:33:42,687 --> 00:33:45,407
Speaker 1: our trees up quickly in November just to spite her.

671
00:33:46,167 --> 00:33:49,407
Speaker 1: But I think that this idea because obviously an advent

672
00:33:49,487 --> 00:33:52,887
Speaker 1: calendar has to be given to someone at the beginning

673
00:33:52,887 --> 00:33:57,607
Speaker 1: of December first, So when have I got to start

674
00:33:57,607 --> 00:33:59,567
Speaker 1: my Christmas shopping? And who do I have to buy

675
00:33:59,607 --> 00:34:00,487
Speaker 1: advent calendars?

676
00:34:00,527 --> 00:34:03,087
Speaker 2: Four Well, people buy them for themselves now a lot,

677
00:34:03,127 --> 00:34:05,367
Speaker 2: because it's become oven Kindors used to be for kids,

678
00:34:05,367 --> 00:34:08,447
Speaker 2: but now adults want them to So I was, and

679
00:34:08,487 --> 00:34:10,247
Speaker 2: I know I'm an need it, but I was silly

680
00:34:10,327 --> 00:34:11,967
Speaker 2: enough to decide that I would get my daughter a

681
00:34:12,047 --> 00:34:14,527
Speaker 2: beauty one because I'm a pushover and you know I'm

682
00:34:14,527 --> 00:34:15,927
Speaker 2: trying to.

683
00:34:15,327 --> 00:34:16,687
Speaker 5: Love you, but I'm so so sorry.

684
00:34:16,967 --> 00:34:20,727
Speaker 1: Are you giving feedback to yourself? Bred much to capitalism,

685
00:34:20,807 --> 00:34:21,567
Speaker 1: but to capitalism?

686
00:34:21,607 --> 00:34:23,327
Speaker 2: Because I went on to buy one and they're all

687
00:34:23,367 --> 00:34:26,007
Speaker 2: sold out and they all cost twenty million dollars and

688
00:34:26,047 --> 00:34:28,967
Speaker 2: you're just like, what, who's buying this stuff? That it

689
00:34:29,007 --> 00:34:30,167
Speaker 2: held me? Do you know what you should?

690
00:34:30,407 --> 00:34:33,367
Speaker 1: You sh'd make one just with little pictures of beauty

691
00:34:33,367 --> 00:34:34,407
Speaker 1: product printed out.

692
00:34:34,327 --> 00:34:37,727
Speaker 5: From the internet, drawn drawn.

693
00:34:38,207 --> 00:34:41,127
Speaker 2: Look, Matilda, look what I've got you. When I was

694
00:34:41,167 --> 00:34:43,367
Speaker 2: a kid. We were happy with a crayon drawing of

695
00:34:43,407 --> 00:34:45,327
Speaker 2: a lipstick. It's a little drawing.

696
00:34:45,007 --> 00:34:49,127
Speaker 1: Of a drunk elephant moisturizer. I reckon, look at its

697
00:34:49,167 --> 00:34:49,927
Speaker 1: green little lid.

698
00:34:50,727 --> 00:34:53,367
Speaker 4: I reckon that this is a two types of people thing, though,

699
00:34:53,407 --> 00:34:56,527
Speaker 4: because I gave up on advent calendars when I realized

700
00:34:56,567 --> 00:34:58,847
Speaker 4: I was meant to wait, because you meant to wait.

701
00:34:58,967 --> 00:35:01,087
Speaker 5: Oh, one day, two days.

702
00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:02,567
Speaker 4: Three day, I would eat all my chocolate and be like,

703
00:35:02,567 --> 00:35:05,407
Speaker 4: my event calendar's all gone. Yeah, there's no way I'm

704
00:35:05,487 --> 00:35:06,967
Speaker 4: opening a beauty product every day.

705
00:35:07,007 --> 00:35:09,687
Speaker 2: I gave Matilda her a Vent calendar, and I said,

706
00:35:10,087 --> 00:35:13,527
Speaker 2: if you rummage through and look at all the gifts,

707
00:35:13,887 --> 00:35:16,647
Speaker 2: I am taking it away. It is one gift a

708
00:35:16,767 --> 00:35:21,767
Speaker 2: day or nothing. That's the point of an aunt. Do

709
00:35:21,807 --> 00:35:24,087
Speaker 2: you have to have a point. You're not supposed to

710
00:35:24,167 --> 00:35:28,407
Speaker 2: just open them all once. Imagine if you've looked at

711
00:35:28,447 --> 00:35:30,407
Speaker 2: all the little pictures of the gingerbread men of.

712
00:35:30,447 --> 00:35:34,287
Speaker 4: One in a Moment, The Anatomy of a rumor featuring

713
00:35:34,287 --> 00:35:35,287
Speaker 4: Harry and Megan.

714
00:35:36,127 --> 00:35:38,687
Speaker 1: Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?

715
00:35:38,807 --> 00:35:40,287
Speaker 2: We drop episodes.

716
00:35:39,847 --> 00:35:43,287
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum of Me A

717
00:35:43,367 --> 00:35:45,847
Speaker 1: subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get

718
00:35:45,887 --> 00:35:48,247
Speaker 1: us in your ears five days a week, and a

719
00:35:48,287 --> 00:35:50,647
Speaker 1: huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

720
00:36:00,647 --> 00:36:03,447
Speaker 2: They're never together. They're arguing about where to live, their

721
00:36:03,487 --> 00:36:06,047
Speaker 2: careers are going in different directions, and they're fighting about

722
00:36:06,047 --> 00:36:09,167
Speaker 2: their families. If you're a regular on any gossiping news,

723
00:36:09,607 --> 00:36:11,527
Speaker 2: you might have seen that Prince Harry and Meghan Mark,

724
00:36:11,607 --> 00:36:14,247
Speaker 2: or the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, whose daughter Lilybet

725
00:36:14,247 --> 00:36:18,847
Speaker 2: will definitely be at that French ball in a mining

726
00:36:19,007 --> 00:36:22,047
Speaker 2: and they love it, are definitely on the brink of

727
00:36:22,207 --> 00:36:25,167
Speaker 2: divorce for all the reasons listed above. It's only a

728
00:36:25,167 --> 00:36:28,807
Speaker 2: matter of time apparently, until the announcement comes out. They

729
00:36:28,807 --> 00:36:32,967
Speaker 2: are like breathless countdowns, except no, there is no announcement

730
00:36:33,007 --> 00:36:35,087
Speaker 2: coming out. There's no reason to think, actually that there's

731
00:36:35,087 --> 00:36:37,687
Speaker 2: anything going on here other than that two busy people

732
00:36:37,687 --> 00:36:39,927
Speaker 2: who are pretty keen on their privacy and that of

733
00:36:39,967 --> 00:36:42,567
Speaker 2: their kids are getting on with work. So how did

734
00:36:42,607 --> 00:36:45,487
Speaker 2: this rumor start? And what does it take to kick

735
00:36:45,527 --> 00:36:50,607
Speaker 2: off Hollywood divorce? What work? Sorry, we'll we'll get to that.

736
00:36:51,727 --> 00:36:55,287
Speaker 2: It's simple. Really. What has to happen is starvation we

737
00:36:55,407 --> 00:36:58,727
Speaker 2: haven't had a sighting, as we call it when when

738
00:36:58,767 --> 00:36:59,927
Speaker 2: famous people leave.

739
00:36:59,767 --> 00:37:01,847
Speaker 1: Their houses they're flaun.

740
00:37:03,247 --> 00:37:06,367
Speaker 2: We haven't had a sighting of Harry and Meghan together

741
00:37:06,967 --> 00:37:09,607
Speaker 2: for eighty one days now. Yes, I know, I've got

742
00:37:09,607 --> 00:37:12,207
Speaker 2: a few royal timelines going on. It's still two hundred

743
00:37:12,247 --> 00:37:14,727
Speaker 2: and sixteen days since I signed up for Meghan's Jam

744
00:37:14,767 --> 00:37:15,527
Speaker 2: news letter.

745
00:37:15,447 --> 00:37:18,087
Speaker 1: Waiting for Jam Holly's Breakaway podcast.

746
00:37:19,447 --> 00:37:22,567
Speaker 2: And in a vacuum, stories grow, right, stories grow like

747
00:37:22,607 --> 00:37:26,167
Speaker 2: weeds and then they feed on themselves. So what's basically

748
00:37:26,247 --> 00:37:29,927
Speaker 2: happened apparently is that Harry is busy with his things.

749
00:37:30,007 --> 00:37:32,967
Speaker 2: So he's doing the Invictus Games is in Canada in February,

750
00:37:32,967 --> 00:37:35,687
Speaker 2: and pr for It is launching now, so he's been

751
00:37:35,687 --> 00:37:38,487
Speaker 2: in Canada. He's been making hilarious videos where he got

752
00:37:38,487 --> 00:37:41,567
Speaker 2: a fake tattoo on his neck. He's been spooking that right.

753
00:37:42,127 --> 00:37:44,527
Speaker 2: And also he's got a show coming out on Netflix

754
00:37:44,527 --> 00:37:46,727
Speaker 2: which is about Polo, which we'll get to in a month.

755
00:37:46,807 --> 00:37:47,127
Speaker 1: Is Heen.

756
00:37:47,687 --> 00:37:50,607
Speaker 2: He's not in it, but he and Megan together have

757
00:37:50,727 --> 00:37:52,767
Speaker 2: produced it. So if you watch the trailer, the first

758
00:37:52,767 --> 00:37:55,287
Speaker 2: thing that comes up is says executive producers, you can

759
00:37:55,367 --> 00:37:58,847
Speaker 2: dutchess of Sussex. But it's a show like Drive to Survive.

760
00:37:58,927 --> 00:38:01,887
Speaker 2: You know that reality show about Formula One that made

761
00:38:01,927 --> 00:38:03,207
Speaker 2: Formula one really sexy.

762
00:38:03,367 --> 00:38:05,167
Speaker 1: They're trying to do like a behind the scenes.

763
00:38:05,567 --> 00:38:07,607
Speaker 2: They're trying to do that with Polo. So it's very

764
00:38:07,647 --> 00:38:11,087
Speaker 2: high production values. Imagine going on a horse thirty five

765
00:38:11,127 --> 00:38:14,447
Speaker 2: miles an hour with someone coming at you at full

766
00:38:14,487 --> 00:38:19,807
Speaker 2: speed year channel. When that goes to your body, it's addictive.

767
00:38:22,087 --> 00:38:25,687
Speaker 2: Bolo is not just a sport. Follow is her lifestague.

768
00:38:27,167 --> 00:38:30,447
Speaker 6: We need, we Breathe, we sleep, Toolo.

769
00:38:31,487 --> 00:38:32,767
Speaker 2: Lots of fancy people shouting.

770
00:38:33,087 --> 00:38:35,247
Speaker 5: I can't even tell you one thing about pot well.

771
00:38:35,287 --> 00:38:38,607
Speaker 1: I think there'd be a very interesting Venn diagram of

772
00:38:39,047 --> 00:38:41,167
Speaker 1: Polo people and labal.

773
00:38:44,847 --> 00:38:48,687
Speaker 2: So that's what he's doing right. Megan is still launching

774
00:38:48,727 --> 00:38:51,127
Speaker 2: her I mean not her JAM. I feel that may

775
00:38:51,207 --> 00:38:54,967
Speaker 2: never come her lifestyle brand. Everybody said this week that

776
00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:58,087
Speaker 2: her lifestyle brand and show is still on track to

777
00:38:58,207 --> 00:38:59,527
Speaker 2: launch early next year.

778
00:38:59,727 --> 00:39:01,727
Speaker 1: I thought they had a hiccup because she got knocked

779
00:39:01,767 --> 00:39:06,647
Speaker 1: back for her patent application for American Riviera Orchard.

780
00:39:06,847 --> 00:39:10,527
Speaker 2: Now yep, she did, she did, but that seems to

781
00:39:10,527 --> 00:39:13,687
Speaker 2: be being ironed out. Another brand is called Royal Riviera

782
00:39:13,767 --> 00:39:16,847
Speaker 2: and they're saying, hey, that's too close. Who's who's the

783
00:39:16,927 --> 00:39:20,927
Speaker 2: royal here? And she's like, work, take out one of them.

784
00:39:20,927 --> 00:39:23,047
Speaker 2: But apparently it is all still go, and what the

785
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:25,567
Speaker 2: plan is is it's going to all launch it once.

786
00:39:25,607 --> 00:39:28,127
Speaker 2: So the TV show and the brand and the show

787
00:39:28,207 --> 00:39:30,647
Speaker 2: is going to be sort of like a modern Martha

788
00:39:30,727 --> 00:39:35,207
Speaker 2: Stewarty thing where it's home garden cooking style blah. Right,

789
00:39:35,247 --> 00:39:37,327
Speaker 2: that's all going to happen. So next year it's going

790
00:39:37,367 --> 00:39:40,047
Speaker 2: to be the Year of Megan. So like tradwive stuff,

791
00:39:40,527 --> 00:39:46,727
Speaker 2: well it's not tradwive stuff, it's lifestyle, lifestyle influencer stuff.

792
00:39:46,847 --> 00:39:51,287
Speaker 2: Martha ste domestic, got.

793
00:39:50,087 --> 00:39:52,927
Speaker 4: Nothing wrong with some domesticity. I will defend domesticity.

794
00:39:53,047 --> 00:39:57,727
Speaker 2: This is apparently a very deliberate twin track career plan. Right,

795
00:39:57,767 --> 00:40:00,807
Speaker 2: It's been almost two years since the Netflix stocko dropped

796
00:40:00,847 --> 00:40:03,607
Speaker 2: that was all about them talking about their story, their

797
00:40:03,607 --> 00:40:05,767
Speaker 2: love story, what had happened. They're gripe, they're leaving the

798
00:40:05,807 --> 00:40:08,767
Speaker 2: royal family, and almost two years since Spare came out

799
00:40:08,807 --> 00:40:12,567
Speaker 2: Harry's amazing book about that, and apparently they got wind

800
00:40:12,567 --> 00:40:14,487
Speaker 2: of the fact that everybody was tired of them together.

801
00:40:14,567 --> 00:40:17,167
Speaker 2: So now they're trying separate, so makes sense.

802
00:40:17,207 --> 00:40:19,727
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, there's been some leaks from some aids

803
00:40:19,767 --> 00:40:23,487
Speaker 4: and also kind of pr experts looking at it going

804
00:40:23,967 --> 00:40:28,367
Speaker 4: what we're seeing is a professional separation. Yes, and they were,

805
00:40:28,487 --> 00:40:32,767
Speaker 4: their projects were together. There was such fatigue and such

806
00:40:33,167 --> 00:40:35,687
Speaker 4: annoyance at them that now they've gone, all right, we're

807
00:40:35,687 --> 00:40:38,887
Speaker 4: going on two different tracks, which explains why. For example,

808
00:40:39,047 --> 00:40:42,287
Speaker 4: I think on Christmas, Harry has sent out an invitation

809
00:40:42,887 --> 00:40:45,407
Speaker 4: to an event he's doing where he's speaking to maybe

810
00:40:45,407 --> 00:40:48,007
Speaker 4: sick kids, and it's just him where it used to

811
00:40:48,007 --> 00:40:48,927
Speaker 4: be him and Megan.

812
00:40:48,727 --> 00:40:50,487
Speaker 1: Consciously uncoupling theirs.

813
00:40:51,767 --> 00:40:54,207
Speaker 2: So what I'd love to know from you, in particular me,

814
00:40:54,327 --> 00:40:56,927
Speaker 2: because you're you know this stuff is so if that's

815
00:40:56,967 --> 00:40:59,607
Speaker 2: what they're doing, as Jesse says, a professional separation, but

816
00:40:59,687 --> 00:41:01,967
Speaker 2: there's no reason to think their personal life. Isn't it

817
00:41:02,007 --> 00:41:04,207
Speaker 2: a thing other than what they're saying it is. The

818
00:41:04,287 --> 00:41:06,807
Speaker 2: problem is is in the anatomy of a rumor, they

819
00:41:06,847 --> 00:41:09,567
Speaker 2: haven't been seen together. So there's a clock going now right,

820
00:41:09,607 --> 00:41:11,727
Speaker 2: So every time you open you know, news dot Com,

821
00:41:11,807 --> 00:41:15,807
Speaker 2: Daily Mail, US gossip sites, it'll say thirty six days,

822
00:41:15,887 --> 00:41:18,087
Speaker 2: forty four days and an invite goes out like the

823
00:41:18,087 --> 00:41:20,447
Speaker 2: one you were just talking about, Jesse. That's like Harry's

824
00:41:20,487 --> 00:41:23,527
Speaker 2: launching and having a Christmas charity function. Where's Meghan? There

825
00:41:23,607 --> 00:41:24,207
Speaker 2: must be problem?

826
00:41:24,287 --> 00:41:26,167
Speaker 1: Why mana days is quite a long time?

827
00:41:26,367 --> 00:41:29,447
Speaker 2: Well, the question is when you know this is happening,

828
00:41:29,567 --> 00:41:31,767
Speaker 2: so you know that the divorce roomors are bubbling, you

829
00:41:31,807 --> 00:41:34,167
Speaker 2: know it's all going on. Is the best way to

830
00:41:34,207 --> 00:41:37,567
Speaker 2: try and douse the rumor? To just bite the bullet

831
00:41:37,607 --> 00:41:41,167
Speaker 2: and go to something together, Pat walk it or Harry

832
00:41:41,167 --> 00:41:43,367
Speaker 2: and Meghan just better off sticking their fingers up and

833
00:41:43,407 --> 00:41:46,287
Speaker 2: going we know what's going on. We're just doing our

834
00:41:46,287 --> 00:41:49,127
Speaker 2: thing to shut up the rumor. Tolice the rumor down.

835
00:41:49,207 --> 00:41:52,807
Speaker 1: You're right, it would be very easy to shut this

836
00:41:53,047 --> 00:41:55,727
Speaker 1: down by being seen in public. They're in a bit

837
00:41:55,727 --> 00:41:59,127
Speaker 1: of a tricky position because their whole brand has been

838
00:42:00,007 --> 00:42:04,967
Speaker 1: really built on righteous indignation against the media. I mean

839
00:42:05,007 --> 00:42:09,127
Speaker 1: that actually quite sincerely, like they have really been hounded

840
00:42:09,447 --> 00:42:13,287
Speaker 1: the media. Harry carries obviously a huge amount of baggage

841
00:42:13,327 --> 00:42:16,687
Speaker 1: and trauma about the role the media played in the

842
00:42:16,687 --> 00:42:19,167
Speaker 1: death of his mother and the sort of the harassment

843
00:42:19,207 --> 00:42:23,167
Speaker 1: of her ongoing, and then about his wife, and that's

844
00:42:23,207 --> 00:42:25,407
Speaker 1: all now caught up, of course with his family and

845
00:42:25,487 --> 00:42:29,207
Speaker 1: leaking to the press, and the same thing happened to Megan,

846
00:42:29,287 --> 00:42:32,287
Speaker 1: So I understand that they do feel very indignant and

847
00:42:32,327 --> 00:42:35,687
Speaker 1: angry about the media. But celebrities have to be able

848
00:42:35,727 --> 00:42:38,767
Speaker 1: to play the media, and because they've painted themselves into

849
00:42:38,847 --> 00:42:42,167
Speaker 1: this position where they won't play, or they'll only play

850
00:42:42,167 --> 00:42:46,207
Speaker 1: on their terms. And they've also been quite adamant that

851
00:42:46,327 --> 00:42:49,247
Speaker 1: social media is toxic and terrible and they don't want

852
00:42:49,287 --> 00:42:52,887
Speaker 1: to be on social media, so they've really cut off

853
00:42:53,367 --> 00:42:58,047
Speaker 1: their lines of communication with the world because you don't

854
00:42:58,047 --> 00:42:59,967
Speaker 1: have to talk to the media if you can talk

855
00:43:00,007 --> 00:43:03,367
Speaker 1: directly to people through your own social media accounts. That's

856
00:43:03,407 --> 00:43:07,247
Speaker 1: what celebrities have learned over the last few years, and

857
00:43:07,327 --> 00:43:11,087
Speaker 1: why the celebrities who haven't. I mean, even Jennifer Aniston

858
00:43:11,127 --> 00:43:14,247
Speaker 1: does it now. And I noticed even Prince William on

859
00:43:14,247 --> 00:43:17,687
Speaker 1: the weekend posted a talking to his phone, posting some

860
00:43:17,767 --> 00:43:22,607
Speaker 1: congratulations message to someone. And that's how you become relatable.

861
00:43:22,687 --> 00:43:25,567
Speaker 1: And Harry and Meghan have this really interesting brand where

862
00:43:26,287 --> 00:43:28,407
Speaker 1: they want to be relatable, but they also want to

863
00:43:28,407 --> 00:43:31,327
Speaker 1: be untouchable, so they want to keep all the status

864
00:43:31,367 --> 00:43:35,207
Speaker 1: of being royals and all the sort of superiority and

865
00:43:35,927 --> 00:43:39,647
Speaker 1: mystery that that brings with it, But they're also like

866
00:43:40,087 --> 00:43:43,287
Speaker 1: but we're just like you, So it's a really tricky.

867
00:43:43,047 --> 00:43:43,767
Speaker 5: Net of tread.

868
00:43:44,047 --> 00:43:46,807
Speaker 4: The other element is the ages of their children in

869
00:43:46,887 --> 00:43:51,407
Speaker 4: terms of privacy but also childcare. So if one of

870
00:43:51,407 --> 00:43:53,087
Speaker 4: them is traveling, and I know that that sounds such

871
00:43:53,127 --> 00:43:55,247
Speaker 4: a silly thing to say when they have resources, but

872
00:43:56,127 --> 00:43:58,007
Speaker 4: if one of them is traveling to the other side

873
00:43:58,047 --> 00:43:59,807
Speaker 4: of the world, then that's a big call for two

874
00:43:59,967 --> 00:44:02,807
Speaker 4: working parents to be separated from their children for a week.

875
00:44:02,887 --> 00:44:05,047
Speaker 5: I understand that decision.

876
00:44:05,047 --> 00:44:07,927
Speaker 2: Especially sure you would tag team careers a little.

877
00:44:07,687 --> 00:44:11,007
Speaker 4: Bit exactly, so maybe it's become unfeasible for them to

878
00:44:11,087 --> 00:44:12,447
Speaker 4: be traveling together.

879
00:44:12,647 --> 00:44:14,527
Speaker 1: That's fair. Like in some ways, it's easier to do

880
00:44:14,527 --> 00:44:16,327
Speaker 1: that when your kids are really little because they kind

881
00:44:16,327 --> 00:44:17,887
Speaker 1: of don't know, but their kids are well like five

882
00:44:17,927 --> 00:44:18,207
Speaker 1: and three.

883
00:44:19,007 --> 00:44:21,487
Speaker 2: One of the interesting things about this is we talk

884
00:44:21,567 --> 00:44:25,207
Speaker 2: sometimes on out loud about, you know, strategy around paparazzi

885
00:44:25,727 --> 00:44:29,047
Speaker 2: and the way that celebrities sometimes will use it. What

886
00:44:29,207 --> 00:44:31,207
Speaker 2: this kind of shows you is that if you're a

887
00:44:31,207 --> 00:44:33,007
Speaker 2: celebrity at that level, if you don't want to be

888
00:44:33,047 --> 00:44:34,487
Speaker 2: seen and you don't want to be papped. You can

889
00:44:34,527 --> 00:44:37,687
Speaker 2: do it right, because we haven't seen those children, and

890
00:44:37,767 --> 00:44:40,887
Speaker 2: no should we. I'm not not complaining about this, but

891
00:44:41,007 --> 00:44:44,247
Speaker 2: we have not seen those children since they were showing

892
00:44:44,247 --> 00:44:46,247
Speaker 2: their family pictures in the Netflix stock ow and stuff.

893
00:44:46,247 --> 00:44:48,207
Speaker 2: I don't think we've actually really seen them at all.

894
00:44:48,447 --> 00:44:51,327
Speaker 2: They're obviously very concerned about privacy, which is fair enough.

895
00:44:51,727 --> 00:44:54,127
Speaker 2: Magan occasionally gets papped, you know, in and out of

896
00:44:54,127 --> 00:44:56,247
Speaker 2: a yoga studio, in and out of lunch with friends,

897
00:44:56,287 --> 00:44:59,887
Speaker 2: but generally speaking, they have managed to quite successfully build

898
00:44:59,927 --> 00:45:02,767
Speaker 2: themselves a private life. And that is what Prince Harry

899
00:45:02,807 --> 00:45:06,247
Speaker 2: has been saying that he's wanted forever is I don't

900
00:45:06,247 --> 00:45:08,047
Speaker 2: want to be hounded by the paparazzi. I don't want

901
00:45:08,087 --> 00:45:09,287
Speaker 2: to have to deal with that every time I go.

902
00:45:09,647 --> 00:45:12,287
Speaker 2: I want my family to have a safe environment to

903
00:45:12,327 --> 00:45:14,127
Speaker 2: grow up in. I want to be able to choose

904
00:45:14,127 --> 00:45:16,247
Speaker 2: whether or not I show you pictures of them. And

905
00:45:16,287 --> 00:45:18,927
Speaker 2: that's what he's got. The problem with it is is

906
00:45:18,967 --> 00:45:22,567
Speaker 2: it just does open up all this speculation. So they

907
00:45:22,687 --> 00:45:24,727
Speaker 2: may have an opportunity. I guess if they wanted to

908
00:45:24,767 --> 00:45:27,087
Speaker 2: shut everybody up, they might go to the premiere of

909
00:45:27,127 --> 00:45:30,207
Speaker 2: Polo Together this week. Sometime. I think it officially launches

910
00:45:30,207 --> 00:45:33,047
Speaker 2: on the tenth of December. They sometimes are seen at

911
00:45:33,047 --> 00:45:35,007
Speaker 2: a you know, they'll put out a little video to

912
00:45:35,007 --> 00:45:39,607
Speaker 2: speaking to camera for charity. But that pressure of constantly

913
00:45:39,807 --> 00:45:42,127
Speaker 2: what are you going to give us? We haven't seen you?

914
00:45:42,327 --> 00:45:45,687
Speaker 2: Is there a problem is also sort of animated by

915
00:45:45,687 --> 00:45:47,727
Speaker 2: the fact everybody kind of wants there to be a problem.

916
00:45:47,767 --> 00:45:50,367
Speaker 1: It's a bit giving Kate Middleton, though, isn't it. Remember

917
00:45:50,367 --> 00:45:52,367
Speaker 1: when it was like a where's Kate? How many days?

918
00:45:52,407 --> 00:45:53,487
Speaker 2: Where's Kate? Where's Kate?

919
00:45:53,647 --> 00:45:54,047
Speaker 5: Difference?

920
00:45:54,047 --> 00:45:56,087
Speaker 4: And the other element I do think is worth noting

921
00:45:56,327 --> 00:45:59,047
Speaker 4: is the extent to which people are rooting for this divorce,

922
00:45:59,127 --> 00:46:01,847
Speaker 4: and I think that that's embedded in a lot of

923
00:46:01,847 --> 00:46:05,447
Speaker 4: the reporting. It's almost wish fulfillment in terms of if

924
00:46:05,487 --> 00:46:08,647
Speaker 4: they split, then everything we always said about Meghan was true,

925
00:46:08,647 --> 00:46:11,047
Speaker 4: which of course is not the case at all.

926
00:46:11,167 --> 00:46:13,567
Speaker 2: But I want Harry to be miserable and regretful about

927
00:46:13,687 --> 00:46:16,167
Speaker 2: leaving Britain and leaving the Royals.

928
00:46:15,807 --> 00:46:17,887
Speaker 4: And him to realize that we were right, that his

929
00:46:18,047 --> 00:46:21,327
Speaker 4: family was right, that this woman who we have represented

930
00:46:21,367 --> 00:46:25,567
Speaker 4: as strong willed and a bully, has fractured this family,

931
00:46:25,847 --> 00:46:29,087
Speaker 4: and like we want him to have this epiphany, like.

932
00:46:29,487 --> 00:46:31,047
Speaker 1: Do you think what people are rooting for?

933
00:46:31,127 --> 00:46:32,847
Speaker 4: I think that there are definitely There was a great

934
00:46:32,927 --> 00:46:35,567
Speaker 4: story on Maya over the weekend by Laura Brodnick who

935
00:46:35,567 --> 00:46:38,087
Speaker 4: said that people sit into two camps, but I think

936
00:46:38,127 --> 00:46:43,647
Speaker 4: specifically the British monarchist camp want this divorce to happen.

937
00:46:43,727 --> 00:46:46,167
Speaker 4: They see this as having been a real like kink

938
00:46:46,207 --> 00:46:49,247
Speaker 4: in the armor of the monarchy, and so I don't

939
00:46:49,247 --> 00:46:52,687
Speaker 4: think we've ever seen before people want to divorce this badly,

940
00:46:52,847 --> 00:46:54,807
Speaker 4: like people actually want this rumor to be true.

941
00:46:55,327 --> 00:46:57,807
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today. I may never

942
00:46:57,847 --> 00:46:59,807
Speaker 2: recover from the advent calendar class.

943
00:47:00,447 --> 00:47:02,047
Speaker 1: I'm still having a good think about that.

944
00:47:02,847 --> 00:47:05,367
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of the out louders

945
00:47:05,367 --> 00:47:07,647
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show. We're going to be back

946
00:47:07,647 --> 00:47:11,007
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow, Out Loud, Bye.

947
00:47:10,807 --> 00:47:12,567
Speaker 5: Bye, out Louders.

948
00:47:12,567 --> 00:47:15,207
Speaker 4: I wanted to sneakily tell you that it is not

949
00:47:15,367 --> 00:47:18,327
Speaker 4: too late to jump onto the MMA mea Black Friday offer.

950
00:47:18,767 --> 00:47:21,287
Speaker 4: Mama Maya is giving you the biggest discount we've ever

951
00:47:21,407 --> 00:47:24,727
Speaker 4: offered on a subscription, and time is running out right now.

952
00:47:24,767 --> 00:47:28,527
Speaker 4: You can get thirty three dollars off a yearly subscription.

953
00:47:28,967 --> 00:47:31,527
Speaker 4: That means that you're paying thirty six dollars in total

954
00:47:31,807 --> 00:47:34,127
Speaker 4: for a whole year. That will give you full access

955
00:47:34,127 --> 00:47:36,487
Speaker 4: to all the stories and shows you love from Mamma Maya.

956
00:47:36,647 --> 00:47:39,087
Speaker 4: But it is not forever, so do not miss out.

957
00:47:39,767 --> 00:47:42,407
Speaker 4: Use the code out loud Friday. Head to the link

958
00:47:42,407 --> 00:47:44,047
Speaker 4: in our show notes for all the details.

959
00:47:44,727 --> 00:47:47,607
Speaker 2: Shout out to Emmy Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

960
00:47:47,767 --> 00:47:50,647
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

961
00:47:50,647 --> 00:47:53,087
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

962
00:47:53,287 --> 00:47:55,167
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode of description.