1 00:00:11,104 --> 00:00:15,064 Speaker 1: So much. You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma 2 00:00:15,144 --> 00:00:18,824 Speaker 1: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders that 3 00:00:18,904 --> 00:00:21,624 Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on Hey. 4 00:00:21,464 --> 00:00:24,864 Speaker 2: Spillers, it's m venom here. I know it's the weekend 5 00:00:24,864 --> 00:00:27,784 Speaker 2: and you weren't expecting to hear me, so look, you're 6 00:00:27,824 --> 00:00:30,904 Speaker 2: welcome for the pleasant surprise. I want to share with 7 00:00:30,944 --> 00:00:34,064 Speaker 2: you a special episode from Mamma MIA's podcast, But Are 8 00:00:34,064 --> 00:00:37,744 Speaker 2: You Happy? Hosted by Claire Stevens, it's their latest episode 9 00:00:37,824 --> 00:00:41,704 Speaker 2: with Listinda Price, also known as Froom. She's a presenter, comedian, 10 00:00:41,824 --> 00:00:44,344 Speaker 2: and the author of the book All I Ever Wanted 11 00:00:44,504 --> 00:00:46,504 Speaker 2: Was to Be Hot. We have talked about this book 12 00:00:46,544 --> 00:00:49,824 Speaker 2: briefly on the spill as well. It's bright yellow and pink. 13 00:00:49,984 --> 00:00:52,624 Speaker 2: You would have seen it all over social media. In 14 00:00:52,664 --> 00:00:56,424 Speaker 2: this episode, Frooms gets real about body image and mental health, 15 00:00:56,704 --> 00:00:59,024 Speaker 2: touching on her own journey growing up under the weight 16 00:00:59,104 --> 00:01:02,984 Speaker 2: of unrealistic beauty standards. She shares how those pressures made 17 00:01:03,024 --> 00:01:05,224 Speaker 2: her feel like she had to change to fit in, 18 00:01:05,624 --> 00:01:08,984 Speaker 2: and she and Claire have a genuine, uplifting conversation about 19 00:01:09,024 --> 00:01:11,704 Speaker 2: what we should and shouldn't say to others about their bodies. 20 00:01:12,144 --> 00:01:14,584 Speaker 2: Just to heads up. They do discuss disordered eating in 21 00:01:14,624 --> 00:01:17,224 Speaker 2: this episode, so please keep that in mind as you listen. 22 00:01:17,704 --> 00:01:19,384 Speaker 3: So is Frooms happy? 23 00:01:19,424 --> 00:01:20,864 Speaker 2: Now, let's find out. 24 00:01:22,584 --> 00:01:25,664 Speaker 1: And I know from being around people in my life 25 00:01:25,704 --> 00:01:27,664 Speaker 1: when I've been well who were in the position that 26 00:01:27,704 --> 00:01:29,784 Speaker 1: I was, then it is hard to be around someone 27 00:01:29,824 --> 00:01:32,264 Speaker 1: with an eating disorder because they are so wrapped up 28 00:01:32,264 --> 00:01:34,704 Speaker 1: in their head they don't have time to consider your 29 00:01:34,744 --> 00:01:36,704 Speaker 1: feelings a lot of the time in my experience. 30 00:01:45,064 --> 00:01:48,784 Speaker 3: Hello and welcome Tividai You're Happy, the podcast that asks 31 00:01:48,824 --> 00:01:51,784 Speaker 3: the questions you've always wanted to know from the people 32 00:01:51,864 --> 00:01:55,144 Speaker 3: who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and 33 00:01:55,184 --> 00:02:00,064 Speaker 3: today's guest is Lucinda Price, also known as Frooms. She's 34 00:02:00,104 --> 00:02:03,344 Speaker 3: an author and a comedian and a broadcaster and an 35 00:02:03,344 --> 00:02:06,824 Speaker 3: Internet personality, and you might know her from being Really 36 00:02:06,984 --> 00:02:11,744 Speaker 3: Bloody Funny on Instagram. She is perform formed at some 37 00:02:11,784 --> 00:02:17,224 Speaker 3: of Australia's largest live events and stages. She's written for TV, 38 00:02:17,344 --> 00:02:21,664 Speaker 3: she's got a cult following, and she's just released her 39 00:02:21,784 --> 00:02:25,224 Speaker 3: debut book, All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot, 40 00:02:25,504 --> 00:02:29,464 Speaker 3: which is essentially about the body image problem that every 41 00:02:29,464 --> 00:02:33,064 Speaker 3: woman who has grown up in Australia in the last 42 00:02:33,144 --> 00:02:39,144 Speaker 3: thirty years has been subjected to and it's essentially about 43 00:02:39,184 --> 00:02:42,144 Speaker 3: that soup that we swim in when it comes to 44 00:02:42,264 --> 00:02:46,424 Speaker 3: Western beauty standards and the damage it does, and for 45 00:02:46,584 --> 00:02:51,264 Speaker 3: her the journey of breaking out of it. Frooms is 46 00:02:51,704 --> 00:02:58,224 Speaker 3: particularly fascinating talking about the absurdity of the beauty standards 47 00:02:58,424 --> 00:03:01,984 Speaker 3: that we grew up with and how everyone wanted to 48 00:03:02,024 --> 00:03:05,184 Speaker 3: be a Victoria's Secret Angel. Everyone wanted to look the 49 00:03:05,184 --> 00:03:08,704 Speaker 3: same way, and if you were out of those boundaries, 50 00:03:09,744 --> 00:03:12,624 Speaker 3: you felt like there was something wrong with you and 51 00:03:12,704 --> 00:03:18,944 Speaker 3: that you needed to desperately change something about yourself. I 52 00:03:19,024 --> 00:03:23,904 Speaker 3: was really looking forward to having this conversation because before 53 00:03:23,904 --> 00:03:27,024 Speaker 3: I started in media, I was doing a Masters of 54 00:03:27,064 --> 00:03:32,584 Speaker 3: research in psychology, specifically looking at public health messaging around 55 00:03:32,624 --> 00:03:36,824 Speaker 3: obesity and eating disorders and how they entirely conflict. And 56 00:03:36,864 --> 00:03:41,344 Speaker 3: it looked at the overlap between obesity and eating disorders 57 00:03:41,584 --> 00:03:44,704 Speaker 3: and the insidiousness of fat phobia and the way it's 58 00:03:44,824 --> 00:03:49,224 Speaker 3: damaging not only for a person's mental health but also 59 00:03:49,784 --> 00:03:54,784 Speaker 3: for the goal of physical health. So many women have 60 00:03:54,984 --> 00:03:59,704 Speaker 3: had their lives and their joy stolen from them because 61 00:04:00,184 --> 00:04:03,424 Speaker 3: of the noise around eating, shape and weight, and it's 62 00:04:03,464 --> 00:04:06,304 Speaker 3: a conversation I've wanted to have on this podcast for 63 00:04:06,384 --> 00:04:11,784 Speaker 3: so long, and I knew that Froom would be the 64 00:04:11,864 --> 00:04:17,184 Speaker 3: person to have that conversation with. I started by asking 65 00:04:17,264 --> 00:04:18,664 Speaker 3: her about her childhood. 66 00:04:20,984 --> 00:04:22,744 Speaker 1: Oh, I love that you just get straight into it. 67 00:04:22,784 --> 00:04:27,424 Speaker 1: That's great, I would say, yeah, for sure. I was 68 00:04:27,464 --> 00:04:29,984 Speaker 1: actually thinking on the way here, my sister and I 69 00:04:29,944 --> 00:04:34,144 Speaker 1: are like everything to our parents, and there's nothing that 70 00:04:34,184 --> 00:04:36,624 Speaker 1: they wouldn't do for either of us, Like their life 71 00:04:36,624 --> 00:04:40,384 Speaker 1: revolves around us really, and not in like a coddled way, 72 00:04:40,984 --> 00:04:43,864 Speaker 1: but rather like I could sit in my hands and 73 00:04:43,864 --> 00:04:45,344 Speaker 1: clap and my mum would be like, oh my god, 74 00:04:45,384 --> 00:04:48,264 Speaker 1: that's iconic, so I could do it again. So I've 75 00:04:48,304 --> 00:04:52,744 Speaker 1: definitely been enabled. But yeah, I would say any kind 76 00:04:52,784 --> 00:04:55,824 Speaker 1: of like unhappiness that I felt was just purely in 77 00:04:55,864 --> 00:04:58,064 Speaker 1: my own head, because I feel as though I've really 78 00:04:58,344 --> 00:05:00,544 Speaker 1: had a pretty good trot in terms of things that 79 00:05:00,664 --> 00:05:02,864 Speaker 1: have been given to me and stuff like that. But 80 00:05:02,984 --> 00:05:05,264 Speaker 1: definitely from a young age, I think I had a 81 00:05:05,264 --> 00:05:06,664 Speaker 1: few demons in my brain. 82 00:05:07,904 --> 00:05:13,584 Speaker 3: You have talked a bit about experiencing depression. When was 83 00:05:13,624 --> 00:05:15,864 Speaker 3: your first experience with it? 84 00:05:16,984 --> 00:05:21,344 Speaker 1: So my first experience with it was probably, funnily enough, 85 00:05:21,784 --> 00:05:24,104 Speaker 1: what I feel kicked it off. In my memory was 86 00:05:24,104 --> 00:05:25,904 Speaker 1: when I went to a party when I was fifteen 87 00:05:26,224 --> 00:05:29,624 Speaker 1: and I greened out. Yeah, so we're passing it around 88 00:05:29,664 --> 00:05:31,344 Speaker 1: and I'll never forget. I don't know if this is 89 00:05:31,384 --> 00:05:33,304 Speaker 1: like if I'm allowed to talk about this, but I 90 00:05:33,344 --> 00:05:36,144 Speaker 1: was like fifteen, so that's fine. We were passing around. 91 00:05:36,144 --> 00:05:40,464 Speaker 1: They made this joint that was like a cross and 92 00:05:40,504 --> 00:05:43,784 Speaker 1: it was someone's parents. Wait it literally looked like that. Anyway. 93 00:05:43,824 --> 00:05:46,624 Speaker 1: I took a PuF and like I really inhaled it 94 00:05:46,664 --> 00:05:50,104 Speaker 1: like twice, and then straight away I was like, I've 95 00:05:50,104 --> 00:05:52,304 Speaker 1: made a massive mistake. And it always happens when you're 96 00:05:52,344 --> 00:05:55,064 Speaker 1: like in a circle of people. Yeah, And I looked 97 00:05:55,064 --> 00:05:57,224 Speaker 1: across me. I was looking at someone and behind them 98 00:05:57,344 --> 00:06:00,624 Speaker 1: was this red cartoon going like this, like this, like this. 99 00:06:00,704 --> 00:06:03,184 Speaker 1: And then we went inside and we watched my favorite 100 00:06:03,224 --> 00:06:05,584 Speaker 1: ever movie, Austin Powers, and it was like I was 101 00:06:05,624 --> 00:06:08,744 Speaker 1: watching it and eternity dragged on, but it it'd only 102 00:06:08,744 --> 00:06:11,424 Speaker 1: been a second. Like I was wigging out. I went 103 00:06:11,464 --> 00:06:13,544 Speaker 1: to the bathroom and I vomited and I vomited up 104 00:06:13,544 --> 00:06:16,104 Speaker 1: blood and I was like I'm dying. But then my 105 00:06:16,144 --> 00:06:18,344 Speaker 1: friend was like, no, it's strawberries, Like I had strawberries 106 00:06:18,344 --> 00:06:18,864 Speaker 1: earlier that day. 107 00:06:18,904 --> 00:06:21,384 Speaker 3: I had that once when I got really drunk and 108 00:06:21,424 --> 00:06:24,304 Speaker 3: I was like vomiting blood and they're like, you've exclusively drank. 109 00:06:24,504 --> 00:06:25,104 Speaker 1: What do you use that? 110 00:06:25,264 --> 00:06:25,824 Speaker 3: Like vodka? 111 00:06:26,224 --> 00:06:27,104 Speaker 1: Raspberry raspberry? 112 00:06:27,184 --> 00:06:29,584 Speaker 3: Yeah? I was like it's voda, but I'm still drunk. 113 00:06:29,824 --> 00:06:31,864 Speaker 1: I'm still drunk and it's probably bloody in my head. 114 00:06:32,704 --> 00:06:35,344 Speaker 1: So that actually really rocked me, and thus I don't 115 00:06:35,464 --> 00:06:38,344 Speaker 1: touch anything like that anymore because it rack. I remember 116 00:06:38,384 --> 00:06:40,144 Speaker 1: feeling so bad that I was like, I'm never going 117 00:06:40,184 --> 00:06:42,024 Speaker 1: to do this again. And I often talk about how 118 00:06:42,384 --> 00:06:44,064 Speaker 1: I get migraines as a kid, and I'd be like 119 00:06:44,264 --> 00:06:46,424 Speaker 1: praying to whatever imaginary god that I believed in, be 120 00:06:46,504 --> 00:06:48,704 Speaker 1: like please, I'll eat vegetables and fruit if you just 121 00:06:48,744 --> 00:06:50,784 Speaker 1: make it stop. Make it stop. So my whole thing 122 00:06:50,864 --> 00:06:52,664 Speaker 1: was like I never want to feel that again. I 123 00:06:52,704 --> 00:06:55,224 Speaker 1: think it tipped me over into like I don't know 124 00:06:55,224 --> 00:06:58,544 Speaker 1: if it's called derealization or depersonalization or whatever, but it's 125 00:06:58,584 --> 00:07:00,264 Speaker 1: like nothing felt real. It was like I was in 126 00:07:00,264 --> 00:07:02,864 Speaker 1: a glass box for a few months, and it was 127 00:07:02,864 --> 00:07:06,704 Speaker 1: that feeling of like I've done this, I can't rectify this, 128 00:07:06,784 --> 00:07:09,104 Speaker 1: Like I'm going to be stuck in this forever. But 129 00:07:09,184 --> 00:07:12,984 Speaker 1: before that point, I had bad anxiety and OCD since 130 00:07:13,024 --> 00:07:16,064 Speaker 1: I was really young, so I was used to kind 131 00:07:16,104 --> 00:07:20,584 Speaker 1: of feeling that real sinking feeling of like I'm stuck, 132 00:07:20,624 --> 00:07:23,584 Speaker 1: I'm stuck, I'm stuck. But it just added like a 133 00:07:23,624 --> 00:07:25,864 Speaker 1: little bit of like flair to it, where I was 134 00:07:25,864 --> 00:07:27,624 Speaker 1: seeing a glass box now feeling it. 135 00:07:28,384 --> 00:07:30,704 Speaker 3: I have heard a lot of women talk about that 136 00:07:30,824 --> 00:07:35,024 Speaker 3: experience with weed. I don't enjoy it, and I don't 137 00:07:35,024 --> 00:07:37,264 Speaker 3: even know why I don't enjoy it, but it's probably 138 00:07:37,504 --> 00:07:39,584 Speaker 3: a similar thing. I just don't like how I feel, 139 00:07:40,144 --> 00:07:43,464 Speaker 3: And I'm a bit the same with like doing anything 140 00:07:43,504 --> 00:07:45,704 Speaker 3: that I'm then like, I don't want to not feel 141 00:07:45,984 --> 00:07:48,984 Speaker 3: in my body. You're writing your book about how your 142 00:07:49,064 --> 00:07:53,944 Speaker 3: dad has bipolar were you conscious of trying things like 143 00:07:54,024 --> 00:07:57,024 Speaker 3: weed and thinking that it might be more risky for 144 00:07:57,064 --> 00:07:57,744 Speaker 3: you because of that? 145 00:07:58,184 --> 00:08:01,904 Speaker 1: Predisposition literally one hundred percent. And I've got friends who 146 00:08:01,944 --> 00:08:04,944 Speaker 1: have parents who have schizophrenia or bipolar one. So my 147 00:08:05,064 --> 00:08:08,344 Speaker 1: dad does bipolar one. And why I always put one 148 00:08:08,384 --> 00:08:09,984 Speaker 1: on the end is because there are two types of 149 00:08:10,024 --> 00:08:13,064 Speaker 1: BiPOL on and bipolar two. And I'm really passionate about 150 00:08:13,624 --> 00:08:15,624 Speaker 1: I feel like that word gets like thrown around so 151 00:08:15,744 --> 00:08:18,304 Speaker 1: much like they're bipolar. I'm like, it's such a complicated, 152 00:08:18,544 --> 00:08:21,344 Speaker 1: interesting experience people who have it. But that's kind of 153 00:08:21,384 --> 00:08:23,864 Speaker 1: a side note. Yeah, definitely. And I grew up like 154 00:08:24,264 --> 00:08:27,184 Speaker 1: dad self medicated, like did all kinds of stuff, and 155 00:08:27,264 --> 00:08:29,464 Speaker 1: I just I didn't want to have that. I knew 156 00:08:29,544 --> 00:08:32,304 Speaker 1: like the reality of it. So I think I don't 157 00:08:32,304 --> 00:08:35,424 Speaker 1: think mental health was like discussed in my family in 158 00:08:35,464 --> 00:08:37,304 Speaker 1: the way that it is now. It was just a 159 00:08:37,384 --> 00:08:39,584 Speaker 1: kind of reality that my dad has bipolar one and 160 00:08:39,624 --> 00:08:42,184 Speaker 1: he's kind of crazy, and it's we call him, and 161 00:08:42,184 --> 00:08:44,304 Speaker 1: I've said this, we call him center, like he's the 162 00:08:44,344 --> 00:08:48,104 Speaker 1: center of our family. And it actually has ended up 163 00:08:48,104 --> 00:08:50,624 Speaker 1: being quite fun, Like I look back quite fondly now, 164 00:08:50,984 --> 00:08:54,304 Speaker 1: even at the things that necessarily weren't. It's a serious 165 00:08:54,304 --> 00:08:57,104 Speaker 1: mental illness, Like there's things that aren't fun about it. 166 00:08:57,744 --> 00:09:01,504 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know if it's like nostalgia. Yeah, yeah, 167 00:09:01,544 --> 00:09:05,344 Speaker 1: but because that's like a relatively serious mental illness, any 168 00:09:05,424 --> 00:09:09,784 Speaker 1: kind of experience that I had didn't feel as scary, yeah, 169 00:09:09,864 --> 00:09:12,424 Speaker 1: but didn't feel also related in a lot of ways. 170 00:09:12,464 --> 00:09:15,064 Speaker 1: But I think later on in life, when I was 171 00:09:15,144 --> 00:09:18,344 Speaker 1: medicated and really kind of like trying to work through it. 172 00:09:18,784 --> 00:09:21,944 Speaker 1: Then I would kind of draw parallels. 173 00:09:21,304 --> 00:09:26,144 Speaker 3: You had OCD when you were really really young. What 174 00:09:26,264 --> 00:09:29,384 Speaker 3: did you used to do? Like how did that manifest? 175 00:09:29,784 --> 00:09:32,264 Speaker 1: Oh? My god, so it started when I sing you 176 00:09:32,264 --> 00:09:35,184 Speaker 1: think kindergarten. I'm smiling even though it's like so shit, 177 00:09:36,104 --> 00:09:38,624 Speaker 1: And I just remember like I couldn't wear socks, like 178 00:09:38,664 --> 00:09:40,384 Speaker 1: Mum would have to put on and off my socks 179 00:09:40,424 --> 00:09:42,224 Speaker 1: again and again and again, and she just thought that 180 00:09:42,304 --> 00:09:44,704 Speaker 1: I didn't like the way they felt. And I thought 181 00:09:44,744 --> 00:09:47,264 Speaker 1: that that was the same. But I realized it would 182 00:09:47,264 --> 00:09:49,304 Speaker 1: be because I was like going into this new environment 183 00:09:49,344 --> 00:09:52,864 Speaker 1: and I didn't feel in control. But it really flared 184 00:09:52,944 --> 00:09:55,144 Speaker 1: up and became a serious problem when I was in 185 00:09:55,224 --> 00:09:58,344 Speaker 1: year seven. Again. Change it happens, and it still comes 186 00:09:58,384 --> 00:10:00,264 Speaker 1: up to me whenever something's changing. 187 00:10:00,264 --> 00:10:02,984 Speaker 3: And it's weird. Often you can't tell in the moment, 188 00:10:03,064 --> 00:10:05,064 Speaker 3: you don't have the self awareness. In the moment, you're like, 189 00:10:05,104 --> 00:10:07,984 Speaker 3: but everything's fine and normal. That hasn't been anything, And 190 00:10:08,024 --> 00:10:09,544 Speaker 3: then you look back on it and you're like, yeah, 191 00:10:09,624 --> 00:10:11,264 Speaker 3: year seven fucked up time. 192 00:10:11,464 --> 00:10:14,384 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, isn't that weird how it works like that? Yeah, 193 00:10:14,584 --> 00:10:16,384 Speaker 1: it's like that's the real hardest part of it, I 194 00:10:16,384 --> 00:10:19,144 Speaker 1: feel is this unawareness, even if you feel like you're 195 00:10:19,144 --> 00:10:21,664 Speaker 1: a self aware person. But oh my god, it was 196 00:10:21,704 --> 00:10:24,064 Speaker 1: so bad in year seven. I just I felt like 197 00:10:24,104 --> 00:10:26,664 Speaker 1: I didn't fit in and I couldn't like find my 198 00:10:26,704 --> 00:10:30,544 Speaker 1: bearings at this new school. And so I would be 199 00:10:30,744 --> 00:10:33,304 Speaker 1: so hyper vigilant about everything that I did and every 200 00:10:33,304 --> 00:10:35,544 Speaker 1: way that I behaved, and I became obsessed with thinking 201 00:10:35,624 --> 00:10:38,664 Speaker 1: that I was offending people. So like i'd brush past 202 00:10:38,704 --> 00:10:40,864 Speaker 1: someone on the bus and like my bag would hit 203 00:10:40,864 --> 00:10:43,224 Speaker 1: their blazer, and for the whole day, like that'd be 204 00:10:43,224 --> 00:10:45,264 Speaker 1: in the morning, For the whole day, I'd be thinking 205 00:10:45,264 --> 00:10:47,144 Speaker 1: about it again and then ruminating, being like I did 206 00:10:47,184 --> 00:10:48,744 Speaker 1: this thing. Oh my god, am I a bad person? 207 00:10:49,184 --> 00:10:52,024 Speaker 1: Then I'd catch the bus home and Mum tells me, now, 208 00:10:52,064 --> 00:10:53,744 Speaker 1: she's like, it'd be like you were busting to use 209 00:10:53,744 --> 00:10:56,224 Speaker 1: the toilet. You'd sit in the car and then have 210 00:10:56,264 --> 00:10:58,384 Speaker 1: to wait, we wait till we get home, walk into 211 00:10:58,384 --> 00:11:00,064 Speaker 1: my room with my mum. She'd sit on my bed, 212 00:11:00,584 --> 00:11:02,544 Speaker 1: and again and again and again, I'd have to say, 213 00:11:03,384 --> 00:11:06,144 Speaker 1: I brush past Sarah on the bus today, Does that 214 00:11:06,224 --> 00:11:09,584 Speaker 1: mean I'm rude? Mean? Or offensive? Does that mean I'm rude? 215 00:11:09,584 --> 00:11:11,264 Speaker 1: Mean or offensive, and I'd say it again and again, 216 00:11:11,304 --> 00:11:13,304 Speaker 1: I'd say it fifty times. And this is why I 217 00:11:13,344 --> 00:11:16,264 Speaker 1: also think it's so important to like championing the people 218 00:11:16,304 --> 00:11:20,064 Speaker 1: that are around people with mental illness, because like the 219 00:11:20,104 --> 00:11:22,384 Speaker 1: patience that my mum showed in sitting with me, she 220 00:11:22,424 --> 00:11:26,464 Speaker 1: had to say no in the perfect cadence. If I 221 00:11:26,664 --> 00:11:28,984 Speaker 1: glinted in her eye that maybe she didn't mean it, 222 00:11:29,104 --> 00:11:31,504 Speaker 1: we'd start the pattern again and this would go on 223 00:11:31,624 --> 00:11:34,944 Speaker 1: for like an hour, sometimes after school, and she didn't 224 00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:37,584 Speaker 1: really know what to do, like what do you do? 225 00:11:38,064 --> 00:11:40,184 Speaker 1: So I didn't get therapy or anything for it, because 226 00:11:40,664 --> 00:11:42,744 Speaker 1: and I speak about this in my book, it did 227 00:11:42,784 --> 00:11:45,104 Speaker 1: eventually go away, like it comes in episodes. It's not 228 00:11:45,144 --> 00:11:47,224 Speaker 1: like this constant thing like I feel fine right now, 229 00:11:47,264 --> 00:11:49,704 Speaker 1: But it kind of all went away when I died 230 00:11:49,744 --> 00:11:52,704 Speaker 1: in my hair blonde. And that's hence all ever wanted 231 00:11:52,784 --> 00:11:53,224 Speaker 1: was to be hot. 232 00:11:53,304 --> 00:11:58,904 Speaker 3: Yeah. You released your debut book in September, and I 233 00:11:58,944 --> 00:12:00,704 Speaker 3: have read it twice. It's a bit of a memoir, 234 00:12:00,784 --> 00:12:04,224 Speaker 3: a bit of a manifesto. And in one of the 235 00:12:04,344 --> 00:12:07,104 Speaker 3: early chapters you tell a story about something that you 236 00:12:07,224 --> 00:12:10,984 Speaker 3: chose to do, and that chapter ends with you seeing 237 00:12:10,984 --> 00:12:13,304 Speaker 3: the results of that and writing it was one of 238 00:12:13,304 --> 00:12:16,064 Speaker 3: the happiest moments of my life. That thing was a 239 00:12:16,104 --> 00:12:19,224 Speaker 3: Nodes job and you were seventeen. Can you tell me 240 00:12:19,624 --> 00:12:22,024 Speaker 3: exactly what that moment was like? And I've just realized 241 00:12:22,184 --> 00:12:24,464 Speaker 3: you like to call it rhinoplasty. We did not use 242 00:12:24,504 --> 00:12:27,704 Speaker 3: the casual lands plastic surgery rhinoplasty. Can you tell me 243 00:12:27,784 --> 00:12:29,344 Speaker 3: exactly what that moment was like? 244 00:12:29,704 --> 00:12:32,984 Speaker 1: Of course? And can I just say you reading my 245 00:12:32,984 --> 00:12:35,184 Speaker 1: book so early on and giving me the most amazing endorsement, 246 00:12:35,224 --> 00:12:37,864 Speaker 1: like made me feel so comfortable and excited about this 247 00:12:37,864 --> 00:12:39,864 Speaker 1: book because it's so scary when you write something like this, 248 00:12:40,424 --> 00:12:41,344 Speaker 1: it's so thankful, so. 249 00:12:41,344 --> 00:12:43,744 Speaker 3: Oh, it's so brilliant. As soon as I saw the title, 250 00:12:43,784 --> 00:12:45,624 Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, I have all the time. 251 00:12:45,504 --> 00:12:50,704 Speaker 1: In love with I'd thank you. Oh yeah, I can 252 00:12:50,704 --> 00:12:53,144 Speaker 1: tell you exactly how it felt. It was summer, and 253 00:12:53,184 --> 00:12:55,224 Speaker 1: I'd wanted this thing since I was eleven, and I 254 00:12:55,344 --> 00:12:57,224 Speaker 1: thought about it so much, but in kind of like 255 00:12:57,264 --> 00:12:59,424 Speaker 1: a good way, Like I was just so excited for 256 00:12:59,464 --> 00:13:00,984 Speaker 1: when it was going to happen. I think it could 257 00:13:01,024 --> 00:13:03,304 Speaker 1: have turned out looking any sort of way, and I 258 00:13:03,304 --> 00:13:06,264 Speaker 1: would have been happy just for having that agency to 259 00:13:06,344 --> 00:13:09,704 Speaker 1: change it. It just felt like it was akin to 260 00:13:09,784 --> 00:13:11,664 Speaker 1: the feeling of like the last day of school or 261 00:13:11,664 --> 00:13:13,704 Speaker 1: getting my license. It was around that time where all 262 00:13:13,744 --> 00:13:15,864 Speaker 1: of those things were happening, so it really kind of 263 00:13:15,904 --> 00:13:20,624 Speaker 1: like divorced me from a girl into a woman. Britney 264 00:13:20,624 --> 00:13:24,704 Speaker 1: spears vibes and yeah, I just remember thinking, Okay, now 265 00:13:24,744 --> 00:13:27,584 Speaker 1: I'm comfortable. Now I feel like myself. People speak about this, 266 00:13:27,624 --> 00:13:30,344 Speaker 1: so I've spoken to there can be like a dysphoria 267 00:13:30,464 --> 00:13:32,624 Speaker 1: or a dysmorphia. I don't know, like you don't feel 268 00:13:32,664 --> 00:13:35,304 Speaker 1: yourself until you fix something. And I think that's where 269 00:13:35,344 --> 00:13:38,784 Speaker 1: plastic surgery can be really helpful. And I think sometimes 270 00:13:38,824 --> 00:13:40,944 Speaker 1: those stories aren't told enough because you either hear the 271 00:13:41,064 --> 00:13:44,424 Speaker 1: like really happy success stories or the disasters where for 272 00:13:44,464 --> 00:13:48,464 Speaker 1: a lot of people it kind of is this like quiet, grounding, 273 00:13:48,984 --> 00:13:51,984 Speaker 1: peaceful experience when you fix something that you don't. 274 00:13:51,824 --> 00:13:55,624 Speaker 3: Like, even if it's like a messy path of why 275 00:13:55,664 --> 00:13:57,664 Speaker 3: you didn't like it in the first place. Would you 276 00:13:57,704 --> 00:14:00,744 Speaker 3: write in the book about certain comments that you got 277 00:14:01,024 --> 00:14:04,864 Speaker 3: or just certain moments where this insecurity kind of emerge 278 00:14:04,904 --> 00:14:08,144 Speaker 3: and you're able to at once see that like it's 279 00:14:08,184 --> 00:14:11,104 Speaker 3: sad and unfair that you felt that way. But the 280 00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:13,784 Speaker 3: truth is you did feel that way, and once you 281 00:14:13,784 --> 00:14:18,624 Speaker 3: saw the results, you were stoked. Yeah, and that's that's okay, 282 00:14:18,904 --> 00:14:22,864 Speaker 3: Like you genuinely felt happiness in that moment, and we 283 00:14:23,024 --> 00:14:25,984 Speaker 3: kind of shot on women a little bit for that. 284 00:14:27,504 --> 00:14:29,904 Speaker 3: Was it something that once you had it, because obviously, 285 00:14:29,944 --> 00:14:31,824 Speaker 3: like your friends would have known you had a partner 286 00:14:31,864 --> 00:14:35,304 Speaker 3: at the time, who knew? Did you feel comfortable telling people? 287 00:14:36,464 --> 00:14:38,304 Speaker 1: No? No, No, it was just like people in my 288 00:14:38,344 --> 00:14:42,264 Speaker 1: immediate circle. But even until writing this book, like I 289 00:14:42,384 --> 00:14:44,664 Speaker 1: was so scared talking about it because it is an 290 00:14:44,704 --> 00:14:46,784 Speaker 1: insecurity of mine, the fact that my nose looks different, 291 00:14:46,824 --> 00:14:49,744 Speaker 1: Like I don't like sharing old photos of myself because 292 00:14:49,784 --> 00:14:51,944 Speaker 1: I don't like giving people permission to shit on this 293 00:14:51,984 --> 00:14:54,984 Speaker 1: little girl who felt self conscious. And yes it's changed, 294 00:14:54,984 --> 00:14:58,064 Speaker 1: but I'm still that person. The part of my nose 295 00:14:58,104 --> 00:15:01,264 Speaker 1: is just in a bin somewhere. But no, it took 296 00:15:01,304 --> 00:15:04,384 Speaker 1: me so long to even consider talking about this with 297 00:15:04,424 --> 00:15:08,984 Speaker 1: people that I don't know, because yeah, like I said, 298 00:15:08,984 --> 00:15:11,264 Speaker 1: there's still that like insecure part of me. You know, 299 00:15:11,264 --> 00:15:12,944 Speaker 1: I'm so worried people and think, oh, she must be 300 00:15:13,024 --> 00:15:16,024 Speaker 1: so naturally fuggly, Like I don't like giving people permission 301 00:15:16,064 --> 00:15:18,624 Speaker 1: to like Bar's judgment, even though of course they are, 302 00:15:19,624 --> 00:15:22,864 Speaker 1: but surprisingly writing about it and putting it out there, 303 00:15:22,904 --> 00:15:25,384 Speaker 1: like no one seems very scandalized by it, and that's 304 00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:27,824 Speaker 1: quite powerful for me, you know, it's kind of freeing. 305 00:15:27,824 --> 00:15:29,824 Speaker 1: It's like, oh cool, I think one day I'll be 306 00:15:29,824 --> 00:15:31,944 Speaker 1: able to share photos of myself and it doesn't matter 307 00:15:31,984 --> 00:15:35,104 Speaker 1: what you think, because and it's true, like I look 308 00:15:35,184 --> 00:15:38,584 Speaker 1: back at photos of myself now, and being honest about 309 00:15:38,584 --> 00:15:40,504 Speaker 1: it has also changed the way that I see my 310 00:15:40,584 --> 00:15:43,624 Speaker 1: old self. I see, oh, she wasn't even that bad, 311 00:15:43,704 --> 00:15:45,384 Speaker 1: Like I think, it really was very much in my 312 00:15:45,464 --> 00:15:50,424 Speaker 1: head and that's why I'm glad I got it. But yeah, 313 00:15:50,464 --> 00:15:52,824 Speaker 1: definitely there's still a bit of feeling like I don't 314 00:15:52,864 --> 00:15:54,544 Speaker 1: want to give people ammunition to judge me. 315 00:15:55,224 --> 00:15:58,144 Speaker 3: It must be a little bit like exposure therapy, because 316 00:15:58,384 --> 00:16:01,584 Speaker 3: if it's something so scary and something that you were 317 00:16:01,624 --> 00:16:03,544 Speaker 3: certain was going to go a certain way once you 318 00:16:03,584 --> 00:16:06,824 Speaker 3: share this truth and it hasn't, that must be especially 319 00:16:06,864 --> 00:16:10,824 Speaker 3: for somebody who is predisposed to being anxious, that must 320 00:16:10,864 --> 00:16:15,584 Speaker 3: be quite comforting. You write candidly in the book about 321 00:16:15,584 --> 00:16:18,744 Speaker 3: wanting to be pretty unpopular, and you say you infiltrated 322 00:16:18,784 --> 00:16:22,184 Speaker 3: the popular group, just by going blonder as someone who 323 00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,664 Speaker 3: was never in the popular group. What does it feel like. 324 00:16:24,664 --> 00:16:28,144 Speaker 1: To me in that group? Oh my god. That was 325 00:16:28,184 --> 00:16:30,584 Speaker 1: another thing that I was really scared about writing about 326 00:16:30,584 --> 00:16:34,584 Speaker 1: because it's like, I feel like I got my wish. Yeah, 327 00:16:34,784 --> 00:16:37,584 Speaker 1: and I'm like I can see. I mean, I don't know, 328 00:16:37,624 --> 00:16:39,464 Speaker 1: because I never didn't have it like I did have 329 00:16:39,504 --> 00:16:41,544 Speaker 1: it for like a year and a half. I've felt 330 00:16:41,664 --> 00:16:45,024 Speaker 1: so like a floater, like I didn't have friends, and 331 00:16:45,064 --> 00:16:46,904 Speaker 1: it really affected me. So I think I don't know 332 00:16:46,904 --> 00:16:48,824 Speaker 1: what it would have been like if I just stayed 333 00:16:48,864 --> 00:16:50,384 Speaker 1: like that forever. I think I would kind of be 334 00:16:50,424 --> 00:16:53,824 Speaker 1: a different person, to be honest. Oh my god, it 335 00:16:53,824 --> 00:16:54,424 Speaker 1: felt good. 336 00:16:54,944 --> 00:16:57,624 Speaker 3: Is it competitive? Like when everyone you talk about like 337 00:16:57,704 --> 00:17:00,944 Speaker 3: the cheerleader effect and the fact that like everyone's hot 338 00:17:00,984 --> 00:17:03,344 Speaker 3: and then everybody seems hot because you're all hot together. 339 00:17:04,264 --> 00:17:07,624 Speaker 3: What does that power feel like? And especially being able 340 00:17:07,624 --> 00:17:11,264 Speaker 3: to compare it with when you didn't have that social capital. 341 00:17:11,944 --> 00:17:16,144 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's kind of not dissimilar to work now, 342 00:17:16,424 --> 00:17:18,544 Speaker 1: Like it's a popularity contest what we do in a 343 00:17:18,584 --> 00:17:21,664 Speaker 1: lot of ways, So it kind of probably primed me 344 00:17:21,744 --> 00:17:24,344 Speaker 1: for that. For me, I don't think it changed you 345 00:17:24,384 --> 00:17:26,024 Speaker 1: I was as a person, But I think it made 346 00:17:26,104 --> 00:17:27,984 Speaker 1: me a better person actually, because it meant that I 347 00:17:27,984 --> 00:17:31,504 Speaker 1: felt like I could. I've felt a lot of agency, 348 00:17:31,704 --> 00:17:33,984 Speaker 1: and I think I'm my best self when I feel 349 00:17:33,984 --> 00:17:36,704 Speaker 1: a bit more in control. And I felt I felt 350 00:17:36,744 --> 00:17:40,264 Speaker 1: accepted even though it was this thing that, yeah, it 351 00:17:40,304 --> 00:17:43,784 Speaker 1: is kind of complicated because there's like haves and have nots, right, 352 00:17:44,304 --> 00:17:46,304 Speaker 1: But yeah, I definitely still knew that it was conditional, 353 00:17:47,064 --> 00:17:48,864 Speaker 1: so I definitely had to work towards it with the 354 00:17:48,904 --> 00:17:51,224 Speaker 1: blonde hair and looking a certain way and behaving a 355 00:17:51,264 --> 00:17:55,024 Speaker 1: certain way in front of boys. But I think I 356 00:17:55,064 --> 00:17:56,784 Speaker 1: was still myself in a lot of ways. It's like 357 00:17:56,864 --> 00:17:58,984 Speaker 1: survivors guilt because I'm like, I know what it was 358 00:17:59,064 --> 00:18:00,584 Speaker 1: like to really feel like I didn't fit in. 359 00:18:01,144 --> 00:18:06,864 Speaker 3: Do you feel like fitting in being hot, being blonde? 360 00:18:07,144 --> 00:18:12,424 Speaker 3: That having that safety net gave you permission to be 361 00:18:13,424 --> 00:18:16,264 Speaker 3: who you were, like I think you say in the book, 362 00:18:16,344 --> 00:18:20,544 Speaker 3: like to be a weirdo, to be crazy, funny and 363 00:18:20,944 --> 00:18:24,424 Speaker 3: out there and follow whatever instincts you had. Do you 364 00:18:24,424 --> 00:18:26,664 Speaker 3: think because you had the safety net of hotness that 365 00:18:26,704 --> 00:18:27,304 Speaker 3: you could do that. 366 00:18:27,384 --> 00:18:29,744 Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Because I remember when I didn't, when 367 00:18:29,744 --> 00:18:31,144 Speaker 1: I was in year seven, and we had this like 368 00:18:31,224 --> 00:18:34,264 Speaker 1: drama class, and I did this whole performance and I 369 00:18:34,264 --> 00:18:36,144 Speaker 1: remember at the end of it, I like slid across 370 00:18:36,144 --> 00:18:39,864 Speaker 1: the floor in my tights and everyone was like whoa 371 00:18:39,944 --> 00:18:41,704 Speaker 1: because it was kind of like good, like it was 372 00:18:41,824 --> 00:18:43,704 Speaker 1: kind of like a really good move, and I was 373 00:18:43,744 --> 00:18:47,184 Speaker 1: like whoa. But again, I felt like a freak. Everyone 374 00:18:47,224 --> 00:18:50,304 Speaker 1: thought I was like this weird girl running around the school. 375 00:18:50,704 --> 00:18:52,504 Speaker 1: I think as well, when I'm anxious, I blink a lot, 376 00:18:52,544 --> 00:18:55,224 Speaker 1: so i'd kind of bounce around the school like blinking 377 00:18:55,264 --> 00:18:57,344 Speaker 1: and like kind of being really oh hey, like kind 378 00:18:57,384 --> 00:18:59,864 Speaker 1: of dorky because I hadn't really come into being a 379 00:18:59,904 --> 00:19:02,864 Speaker 1: proper teenager yet. And people used to say to me, 380 00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:06,104 Speaker 1: like I remember in drama class, one guy was like, 381 00:19:07,504 --> 00:19:08,904 Speaker 1: I thought you were hot, but then I got to 382 00:19:08,984 --> 00:19:12,544 Speaker 1: know you that kind of vibe, which is actually kind. 383 00:19:12,384 --> 00:19:15,064 Speaker 3: Of and you're kind of like, that's what I want. Yeah, 384 00:19:15,104 --> 00:19:17,224 Speaker 3: I feel like I kind of And it's weird in 385 00:19:17,304 --> 00:19:19,904 Speaker 3: that sometimes it's like, did you only get to know 386 00:19:19,984 --> 00:19:23,704 Speaker 3: me because I was hot? Like, did somebody only bother 387 00:19:24,024 --> 00:19:28,344 Speaker 3: to get to know your funniness because you'd lued them 388 00:19:28,344 --> 00:19:29,144 Speaker 3: in fully? 389 00:19:29,184 --> 00:19:31,744 Speaker 1: Fully? Catfish? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, well yeah, I didn't even 390 00:19:31,744 --> 00:19:33,464 Speaker 1: take it. I took it as a compliment because I'm like, 391 00:19:33,704 --> 00:19:36,224 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you are seeing me for who I am, 392 00:19:36,264 --> 00:19:39,584 Speaker 1: which is like this exactly how I present, I guess 393 00:19:39,584 --> 00:19:42,104 Speaker 1: and the things that I find funny. So yeah, definitely 394 00:19:42,144 --> 00:19:44,904 Speaker 1: gave me permission. And I feel like sometimes as young girls, 395 00:19:44,944 --> 00:19:49,544 Speaker 1: we need something to give us permission. And that's what 396 00:19:49,584 --> 00:19:50,864 Speaker 1: it was. For better or worse. 397 00:19:52,944 --> 00:19:56,024 Speaker 3: After the break, Froom shares her experience in what was 398 00:19:56,024 --> 00:19:59,544 Speaker 3: supposed to be a dream media role but instead left 399 00:19:59,584 --> 00:20:11,784 Speaker 3: her feeling increasingly dissatisfied with her appearance. A moment that 400 00:20:12,704 --> 00:20:15,704 Speaker 3: sticks out to me as a time the world told 401 00:20:15,784 --> 00:20:18,544 Speaker 3: you you'd be happy and you weren't, or when you 402 00:20:18,624 --> 00:20:21,024 Speaker 3: thought you'd be happy and you weren't, was when you 403 00:20:21,224 --> 00:20:25,384 Speaker 3: got your job at Pedestrian. Can you tell me about 404 00:20:25,384 --> 00:20:26,944 Speaker 3: the role and what it involved. 405 00:20:27,264 --> 00:20:30,144 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. So yeah, I got a job a 406 00:20:30,224 --> 00:20:32,944 Speaker 1: Pedestrian as a health and fitness editor when I was twenty. 407 00:20:33,384 --> 00:20:36,104 Speaker 3: Got an editor at twenty, I know, how what the hell? 408 00:20:36,224 --> 00:20:38,224 Speaker 1: That's why I was like, yes, like I'm killing it. 409 00:20:38,224 --> 00:20:40,344 Speaker 1: So I really was happy when I got that job. Yeah, 410 00:20:40,384 --> 00:20:43,264 Speaker 1: I was, like obviously felt a lot of pressure because 411 00:20:43,304 --> 00:20:46,264 Speaker 1: I felt like, Oh, I've really got to make this work, 412 00:20:46,304 --> 00:20:48,184 Speaker 1: Like I wanted to work there so bad, but it 413 00:20:48,264 --> 00:20:51,664 Speaker 1: was so out of the realm of possibility in my mind. Yeah, 414 00:20:51,704 --> 00:20:54,744 Speaker 1: it involved me like going on runs, trying smoothies, writing 415 00:20:54,744 --> 00:20:57,144 Speaker 1: about health and fitness, and at that point I'd never 416 00:20:57,184 --> 00:21:00,344 Speaker 1: gone on a diet. I thought diets were ridiculous. Again, 417 00:21:00,424 --> 00:21:02,224 Speaker 1: that was kind of a privilege, to be honest, because 418 00:21:02,224 --> 00:21:06,104 Speaker 1: I'd never been teased for my weight. Yeah, so I 419 00:21:06,344 --> 00:21:08,104 Speaker 1: kind of had the privilege of not knowing what it 420 00:21:08,144 --> 00:21:11,104 Speaker 1: was like to have to worry about that. So I 421 00:21:11,104 --> 00:21:12,784 Speaker 1: think in a way it helped my writing because I 422 00:21:12,824 --> 00:21:16,904 Speaker 1: came from a very layman's approach. But what I find 423 00:21:16,904 --> 00:21:19,344 Speaker 1: funny looking back is it eventually writing about health and 424 00:21:19,384 --> 00:21:23,384 Speaker 1: fitness every day all day really actually started to affect me. 425 00:21:23,944 --> 00:21:25,584 Speaker 1: And I think it's a really good tale of the 426 00:21:25,624 --> 00:21:28,984 Speaker 1: fact that like, what you consume can consume you, and 427 00:21:29,024 --> 00:21:31,544 Speaker 1: what you consume even if you think that you're above her, 428 00:21:31,624 --> 00:21:34,184 Speaker 1: even if you think intellectually that you can outthink it. 429 00:21:34,264 --> 00:21:36,224 Speaker 3: Or you're doing it ironically or whatever. 430 00:21:36,744 --> 00:21:40,304 Speaker 1: Yes, the ironically thing is a big one, especially if 431 00:21:40,344 --> 00:21:42,304 Speaker 1: you pride yourself on being someone who's self aware. I 432 00:21:42,304 --> 00:21:43,584 Speaker 1: think it can get you even more. 433 00:21:44,464 --> 00:21:44,544 Speaker 3: So. 434 00:21:44,664 --> 00:21:48,704 Speaker 1: Yeah, the role involved trying different things, changing my appearance 435 00:21:48,784 --> 00:21:50,944 Speaker 1: for a story, doing stuff like that, which again I 436 00:21:50,984 --> 00:21:52,584 Speaker 1: was twenty. I thought it was amazing. I was like, 437 00:21:52,584 --> 00:21:55,704 Speaker 1: I get to do all this stuff for free. Before 438 00:21:55,744 --> 00:21:57,984 Speaker 1: that as well, I'd worked at Lululemon and part of 439 00:21:58,024 --> 00:22:00,264 Speaker 1: that was going and doing exercise classes for free. So 440 00:22:00,304 --> 00:22:02,184 Speaker 1: I always was enabled to do these things that I 441 00:22:02,184 --> 00:22:06,384 Speaker 1: thought were really positive for me. The context of that 442 00:22:06,464 --> 00:22:08,944 Speaker 1: being actually a bit strange when I look back. 443 00:22:10,344 --> 00:22:16,064 Speaker 3: It's fascinating about your story is this fact that the physical, 444 00:22:16,424 --> 00:22:19,064 Speaker 3: and especially when it comes to eating disorders, the physical 445 00:22:19,504 --> 00:22:24,144 Speaker 3: and the mental feed into each other. So a lot 446 00:22:24,144 --> 00:22:29,384 Speaker 3: of people basically you don't really develop an eating disorder 447 00:22:29,584 --> 00:22:36,104 Speaker 3: unless you diet. That's how the psychopathology starts, because it's 448 00:22:36,144 --> 00:22:40,264 Speaker 3: your brain becoming so hungry that then like it stuffs 449 00:22:40,344 --> 00:22:43,704 Speaker 3: up all the signals and the whole relationship between your 450 00:22:43,704 --> 00:22:46,664 Speaker 3: brain and your body. And so you get this job 451 00:22:46,864 --> 00:22:50,944 Speaker 3: and you're doing diets or smoothies or thinking obsessively about 452 00:22:50,944 --> 00:22:54,384 Speaker 3: health just because that's what you have to do. You 453 00:22:55,384 --> 00:22:59,104 Speaker 3: tell a story about a friend coming to visit you 454 00:22:59,144 --> 00:23:02,464 Speaker 3: in Sydney and you felt weird. After he left, and 455 00:23:02,544 --> 00:23:06,264 Speaker 3: then he said, I just don't know if we can 456 00:23:06,304 --> 00:23:10,104 Speaker 3: be friends, because that whole time was really weird. What 457 00:23:10,144 --> 00:23:13,104 Speaker 3: do you think you were behaving like in that time? 458 00:23:13,944 --> 00:23:17,384 Speaker 1: I remember very clearly everything pissed me off. I found 459 00:23:17,464 --> 00:23:21,144 Speaker 1: everyone annoying, being around people for extended periods of time, 460 00:23:21,184 --> 00:23:23,104 Speaker 1: extended periods of time, being like one whole day in 461 00:23:23,144 --> 00:23:26,544 Speaker 1: one whole night, like you'd piss me off. I thought 462 00:23:26,584 --> 00:23:29,824 Speaker 1: I was better than people, to be honest, I thought 463 00:23:29,824 --> 00:23:33,624 Speaker 1: I was smarter. I thought everyone wishes they had my willpower. 464 00:23:34,384 --> 00:23:36,504 Speaker 1: You know. I was really up my own ass. But 465 00:23:36,584 --> 00:23:38,184 Speaker 1: I think I had to be because I was putting 466 00:23:38,184 --> 00:23:41,104 Speaker 1: everything into it. So I felt entitled to feel all 467 00:23:41,104 --> 00:23:43,864 Speaker 1: of those things, because if I didn't feel all those things, 468 00:23:43,944 --> 00:23:46,624 Speaker 1: what was I doing it for. I think the way 469 00:23:46,664 --> 00:23:50,704 Speaker 1: it manifested in a social way was everything having to 470 00:23:50,744 --> 00:23:52,624 Speaker 1: be my way. I decide when we go out, I 471 00:23:52,744 --> 00:23:55,104 Speaker 1: decide what we eat, I decide when we go home. 472 00:23:55,904 --> 00:23:59,544 Speaker 1: I don't have time for small talk. Yeah, what I 473 00:23:59,584 --> 00:24:01,984 Speaker 1: remember from it was just being really stringent and having 474 00:24:02,024 --> 00:24:06,624 Speaker 1: absolutely no spontaneity. And I know how wild that is 475 00:24:06,664 --> 00:24:09,344 Speaker 1: now because I'm really spontaneous now. If you call me 476 00:24:09,424 --> 00:24:11,464 Speaker 1: up I'll come do whatever with you or on the weekend, 477 00:24:11,584 --> 00:24:13,784 Speaker 1: or like, I'm happy to just sit in bed all 478 00:24:13,824 --> 00:24:15,344 Speaker 1: day on the weekend if it means we're going to 479 00:24:15,424 --> 00:24:18,864 Speaker 1: have a fun time a friend and I together. And 480 00:24:18,944 --> 00:24:22,064 Speaker 1: I know from being around people in my life when 481 00:24:22,104 --> 00:24:24,184 Speaker 1: I've been well who were in the position that I was, 482 00:24:24,224 --> 00:24:26,224 Speaker 1: then it is hard to be around someone with an 483 00:24:26,224 --> 00:24:28,704 Speaker 1: eating disorder because they are so wrapped up in their 484 00:24:28,704 --> 00:24:31,464 Speaker 1: head they don't have time to consider your feelings a 485 00:24:31,464 --> 00:24:34,144 Speaker 1: lot of the time in my experience, but that was 486 00:24:34,184 --> 00:24:36,584 Speaker 1: a wake up call in a lot of ways. It 487 00:24:36,664 --> 00:24:39,264 Speaker 1: was embarrassing. Like I walked away from that conversation that 488 00:24:39,304 --> 00:24:43,584 Speaker 1: I had with him feeling so embarrassed because I didn't realize. 489 00:24:43,664 --> 00:24:45,944 Speaker 1: I hate the idea that I made someone feel uncomfortable. 490 00:24:46,184 --> 00:24:48,504 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would liked that idea, to be fair, 491 00:24:49,304 --> 00:24:52,024 Speaker 1: but it did make me feel really small and really 492 00:24:53,224 --> 00:24:55,424 Speaker 1: really bad. But it still took me a few more 493 00:24:55,504 --> 00:24:58,144 Speaker 1: years to think that the problem was that I was 494 00:24:58,224 --> 00:24:59,784 Speaker 1: hungry and not that I was depressed. 495 00:25:00,224 --> 00:25:05,784 Speaker 3: Was your initial reaction to that to blame that person 496 00:25:06,104 --> 00:25:08,304 Speaker 3: and think, like, uh, you just don't get me. Maybe 497 00:25:08,344 --> 00:25:10,784 Speaker 3: we're not meant to be friends. Anymore or did you 498 00:25:10,864 --> 00:25:13,024 Speaker 3: kind of see some of the truth in it at 499 00:25:13,024 --> 00:25:13,424 Speaker 3: the time. 500 00:25:13,784 --> 00:25:16,504 Speaker 1: I think, judging on the fact that I remember being embarrassed, 501 00:25:16,504 --> 00:25:18,504 Speaker 1: I think I definitely saw truth in it because we've 502 00:25:18,504 --> 00:25:21,304 Speaker 1: been friends since we were like fourteen, him and I. 503 00:25:21,344 --> 00:25:22,024 Speaker 1: His name's Ben. 504 00:25:22,344 --> 00:25:23,904 Speaker 3: Were you able to repair the friendship? 505 00:25:24,104 --> 00:25:24,544 Speaker 2: Yeah? 506 00:25:24,544 --> 00:25:26,504 Speaker 1: Oh good, Like he was one of my best friends 507 00:25:26,504 --> 00:25:29,144 Speaker 1: in high school, like drama kids together, and now like 508 00:25:29,184 --> 00:25:30,864 Speaker 1: he came to my launcherit I did in Melbourne and 509 00:25:30,904 --> 00:25:32,664 Speaker 1: like wrote this beautiful thing for me, being like, I'm 510 00:25:32,704 --> 00:25:34,744 Speaker 1: so proud of the woman you've become. Like he's really cute, 511 00:25:34,744 --> 00:25:37,424 Speaker 1: he's really like earnest and other stuff, which I like, 512 00:25:38,224 --> 00:25:40,704 Speaker 1: is very in touch with his emotions. So yeah, and 513 00:25:40,744 --> 00:25:42,944 Speaker 1: that kind of makes a friendship like that stronger. Like 514 00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:45,104 Speaker 1: he's someone who would just say it how it is, 515 00:25:45,424 --> 00:25:47,224 Speaker 1: and I probably needed that in a lot of ways 516 00:25:47,584 --> 00:25:48,544 Speaker 1: from someone like him. 517 00:25:49,064 --> 00:25:52,944 Speaker 3: I think the way that you describe the reality of 518 00:25:53,064 --> 00:25:59,464 Speaker 3: having an eating disorder is so vivid. And I studied 519 00:25:59,504 --> 00:26:02,264 Speaker 3: psychology and about ten years ago I worked in a 520 00:26:02,304 --> 00:26:05,984 Speaker 3: residential treatment facility with people with eating disorders in the US. 521 00:26:06,544 --> 00:26:08,264 Speaker 3: I was only there for such a short time, but 522 00:26:08,304 --> 00:26:11,784 Speaker 3: it has stuck with me like nothing else, because I 523 00:26:11,864 --> 00:26:17,224 Speaker 3: just could not believe how rigid and scary this mental 524 00:26:17,264 --> 00:26:19,584 Speaker 3: illness was. I remember we were doing like art therapy 525 00:26:20,264 --> 00:26:23,024 Speaker 3: and one girl. Woman. It's weird, I say, girl, but 526 00:26:23,144 --> 00:26:25,864 Speaker 3: like quite important, especially with eating disorders where it can 527 00:26:25,864 --> 00:26:26,944 Speaker 3: be quite paternalistic. 528 00:26:27,264 --> 00:26:27,584 Speaker 1: Woman. 529 00:26:27,984 --> 00:26:31,984 Speaker 3: She was a young woman, but she was just crying 530 00:26:32,024 --> 00:26:36,944 Speaker 3: and crying and saying, I don't know what I meant 531 00:26:36,984 --> 00:26:40,624 Speaker 3: to do because I feel so disgusting and I'm putting 532 00:26:40,664 --> 00:26:42,464 Speaker 3: on weight and I'm eating this food and I feel 533 00:26:42,464 --> 00:26:45,544 Speaker 3: so disgusting in my body. I can't recover because I 534 00:26:45,584 --> 00:26:48,904 Speaker 3: can't live like this. And I was like, oh my god, 535 00:26:49,464 --> 00:26:53,424 Speaker 3: what are you meant to do? What can you remember 536 00:26:54,584 --> 00:26:57,264 Speaker 3: that it felt like to be in the throes of that. 537 00:26:58,064 --> 00:27:01,744 Speaker 1: Yes, it feels like that. It feels like you've got 538 00:27:01,744 --> 00:27:05,944 Speaker 1: two options. I can, yeah, gain weight, which isn't an option, 539 00:27:05,984 --> 00:27:07,584 Speaker 1: but okay, we're going to say it's an option. Or 540 00:27:07,584 --> 00:27:10,264 Speaker 1: I can die, you know, which also isn't an option. 541 00:27:10,384 --> 00:27:12,264 Speaker 1: And that's why I think you can get really stuck 542 00:27:12,504 --> 00:27:14,784 Speaker 1: when you're at your lowest. I think there's different degrees 543 00:27:14,784 --> 00:27:16,824 Speaker 1: with the eating disorder as well. There was times where 544 00:27:16,824 --> 00:27:19,784 Speaker 1: I was definitely still clinically, I hit all the markers 545 00:27:19,784 --> 00:27:21,744 Speaker 1: for having an eating disorder, but it didn't feel as severe. 546 00:27:22,104 --> 00:27:24,144 Speaker 1: And then there were times where it was really like 547 00:27:24,264 --> 00:27:27,704 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do and I'm stuck, like 548 00:27:27,744 --> 00:27:29,824 Speaker 1: you said that woman, really rigid and really stuck. 549 00:27:30,584 --> 00:27:33,984 Speaker 3: And I think sometimes it's actually during the recovery process 550 00:27:34,424 --> 00:27:37,184 Speaker 3: that you're like, oh, I can't live like this because 551 00:27:37,224 --> 00:27:39,264 Speaker 3: I don't know how to live in this body, and 552 00:27:39,304 --> 00:27:42,544 Speaker 3: that's when it all hits you. Because eating disorders have 553 00:27:42,584 --> 00:27:47,304 Speaker 3: the highest mortality rate out of any mental illness. And 554 00:27:47,384 --> 00:27:49,424 Speaker 3: I think that's why this book in your story is 555 00:27:49,464 --> 00:27:53,384 Speaker 3: so important, because it's telling that truth about how trapped 556 00:27:54,304 --> 00:27:59,384 Speaker 3: you feel and you originally they kind of diagnosed it 557 00:27:59,384 --> 00:28:01,664 Speaker 3: as depression. And do you think that was because you 558 00:28:01,704 --> 00:28:03,144 Speaker 3: were just so low? 559 00:28:04,464 --> 00:28:07,144 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think, to be honest, that misfire 560 00:28:07,144 --> 00:28:09,584 Speaker 1: from a psychiatrist was because of my family history of 561 00:28:09,624 --> 00:28:12,344 Speaker 1: mental illness. It's convenient. She was a kind of doctor 562 00:28:12,344 --> 00:28:15,344 Speaker 1: that diagnosed me with a disorder. That was her whole 563 00:28:15,384 --> 00:28:18,144 Speaker 1: job was to look for signs of that. She didn't 564 00:28:18,144 --> 00:28:21,184 Speaker 1: know what I was like before, I said on the questionnaire. 565 00:28:21,184 --> 00:28:22,544 Speaker 1: When she was talking to me, I definitely said that 566 00:28:22,584 --> 00:28:24,584 Speaker 1: I was dieting, which should have set off red flags, 567 00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:28,904 Speaker 1: to be honest, but I think it's important, yeah, to 568 00:28:28,944 --> 00:28:31,624 Speaker 1: address the fact that eating disorders do have the highest 569 00:28:31,624 --> 00:28:34,184 Speaker 1: mortality rate. And it's not because someone's dying of being 570 00:28:34,224 --> 00:28:36,744 Speaker 1: really skinny and they're male nourished. It's because they're taking 571 00:28:36,784 --> 00:28:39,824 Speaker 1: their own lives, and it's not discussed enough. It is, 572 00:28:39,904 --> 00:28:43,024 Speaker 1: I feel because of that feeling of being stuck. I 573 00:28:43,024 --> 00:28:46,784 Speaker 1: know you've discussed experiencing mental illness, and it's that feeling 574 00:28:46,784 --> 00:28:49,584 Speaker 1: where it's I'm stuck. I've got two options, and if 575 00:28:49,584 --> 00:28:53,184 Speaker 1: you're someone who's really impulsive, then yeah, you got two options. 576 00:28:53,944 --> 00:28:56,984 Speaker 1: And I think it's important. It's so funny. I doled 577 00:28:57,024 --> 00:29:01,744 Speaker 1: out that statistic on my Instagram a couple months ago 578 00:29:01,824 --> 00:29:04,064 Speaker 1: and someone said, oh, yeah, I know they're pretty bad, 579 00:29:04,104 --> 00:29:06,184 Speaker 1: but I wouldn't say they're the most lethal. 580 00:29:06,504 --> 00:29:11,984 Speaker 3: As though it's like a subjective, I personally wouldn't. It's like, Okay, 581 00:29:12,104 --> 00:29:13,944 Speaker 3: do you like the data? 582 00:29:13,224 --> 00:29:16,104 Speaker 1: The hell, give me the tea, what's going on here? 583 00:29:16,904 --> 00:29:18,744 Speaker 1: And I think that was just indicative of the way 584 00:29:18,784 --> 00:29:20,864 Speaker 1: that we look and the way that we think. I 585 00:29:20,904 --> 00:29:24,264 Speaker 1: think we think that women are dramatic because yes, people assume, oh, 586 00:29:24,584 --> 00:29:27,104 Speaker 1: eating disorders are a thing for young women, and they're 587 00:29:27,144 --> 00:29:29,824 Speaker 1: being dramatic and they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that. 588 00:29:29,824 --> 00:29:32,144 Speaker 1: It's not about that, it's something they can snap out of. 589 00:29:32,344 --> 00:29:34,544 Speaker 1: People aren't talking about that with suppression. 590 00:29:35,184 --> 00:29:39,664 Speaker 3: And I think because it does disproportionately affect young women, 591 00:29:39,824 --> 00:29:43,824 Speaker 3: people do see it as almost narcissistic. I've actually seen 592 00:29:43,904 --> 00:29:49,704 Speaker 3: some interesting commentary online about kind of accusing people who 593 00:29:49,744 --> 00:29:52,264 Speaker 3: are talking about any disorder recovery or talking about their experiences, 594 00:29:52,464 --> 00:29:54,944 Speaker 3: accusing them of being fat phobic. And it's like, no, 595 00:29:55,064 --> 00:29:57,664 Speaker 3: that is the mental illness though, that's what's making that 596 00:29:57,704 --> 00:30:02,624 Speaker 3: person incredibly sick. Have you found that interesting the kind 597 00:30:02,664 --> 00:30:06,944 Speaker 3: of way that people engage with this story of you 598 00:30:07,064 --> 00:30:09,704 Speaker 3: having an eating disorder, that like, there can be a 599 00:30:09,704 --> 00:30:10,224 Speaker 3: bit of a miss on. 600 00:30:11,184 --> 00:30:13,864 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I wanted to explore the nuance in 601 00:30:13,904 --> 00:30:17,104 Speaker 1: the book, which was saying that, yeah, when I developed 602 00:30:17,104 --> 00:30:19,264 Speaker 1: the eating disorder, I was prime for what you think 603 00:30:19,304 --> 00:30:23,024 Speaker 1: someone with an eating disorder is young, white, wealthy woman 604 00:30:24,504 --> 00:30:28,664 Speaker 1: given everything pretty much affectionists perfectionist decides to go on 605 00:30:28,664 --> 00:30:30,464 Speaker 1: a diet, doesn't like the way her body looks, even 606 00:30:30,504 --> 00:30:34,664 Speaker 1: though she's a standard size. Oh no, she shouldn't eat disorder. Now, 607 00:30:34,904 --> 00:30:36,904 Speaker 1: what I wanted to explain was that when it's an 608 00:30:36,904 --> 00:30:39,904 Speaker 1: eating disorder, and even when you diet, I think dieting 609 00:30:39,944 --> 00:30:42,184 Speaker 1: is weird and it shouldn't be normal. But yeah, when 610 00:30:42,184 --> 00:30:44,984 Speaker 1: you have an eating disorder, it tips over into something 611 00:30:45,024 --> 00:30:46,944 Speaker 1: that you can't control. So yeah, I was controlling it 612 00:30:46,984 --> 00:30:49,264 Speaker 1: at the start. Yeah, I decided to diet. Did I 613 00:30:49,304 --> 00:30:52,464 Speaker 1: decide to develop an eating disorder? Nah? But it happens, 614 00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:55,024 Speaker 1: and that's not discussed enough. I feel like we say 615 00:30:55,024 --> 00:30:57,464 Speaker 1: it's either you see the person who's really sick and 616 00:30:57,504 --> 00:30:59,864 Speaker 1: it's very obvious to everyone that this person has an 617 00:30:59,904 --> 00:31:04,864 Speaker 1: eating disorder, or you have these other gray areas, which 618 00:31:04,944 --> 00:31:06,544 Speaker 1: was what was really important for me to try and 619 00:31:06,584 --> 00:31:08,344 Speaker 1: get across in the book, because I think there's so 620 00:31:08,384 --> 00:31:13,264 Speaker 1: many people who don't fit the diagnostic criteria, who fly 621 00:31:13,384 --> 00:31:15,864 Speaker 1: under the radar, who will be sick for the rest 622 00:31:15,904 --> 00:31:18,824 Speaker 1: of their lives, will be stuck in diet culture, and 623 00:31:18,944 --> 00:31:22,984 Speaker 1: so much of the life and excitement and spontaneity is 624 00:31:22,984 --> 00:31:25,224 Speaker 1: stripped out of their life in a way that they 625 00:31:25,304 --> 00:31:27,704 Speaker 1: might not even be aware of. Because I think that 626 00:31:28,304 --> 00:31:30,944 Speaker 1: it's so important to show that you can go back 627 00:31:30,944 --> 00:31:34,224 Speaker 1: to having this like childlike wonder and sense of excitement, 628 00:31:34,864 --> 00:31:36,504 Speaker 1: and that's something that I think is hard to tap 629 00:31:36,544 --> 00:31:37,624 Speaker 1: into when you're on a diet. 630 00:31:37,864 --> 00:31:40,944 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's weird with eating disorders. I 631 00:31:40,984 --> 00:31:44,744 Speaker 3: think because thinness is so valorized in our culture, we 632 00:31:44,824 --> 00:31:48,024 Speaker 3: can almost look at people with eating disorders with contempt. 633 00:31:48,704 --> 00:31:50,424 Speaker 3: Like even I don't know, if you had this, like 634 00:31:50,464 --> 00:31:52,264 Speaker 3: at school or when you're a young woman and there's 635 00:31:52,264 --> 00:31:55,304 Speaker 3: somebody in your orbit who has an eating disorder, you 636 00:31:55,344 --> 00:31:59,704 Speaker 3: almost gossip about it as though it's malicious, Like it's 637 00:31:59,744 --> 00:32:02,464 Speaker 3: the weirdest thing. If what I'm saying is through that 638 00:32:02,504 --> 00:32:05,784 Speaker 3: person is suffering and I don't see it as suffering. 639 00:32:06,744 --> 00:32:09,024 Speaker 3: When you have an eating disorder, do you feel that 640 00:32:10,344 --> 00:32:12,264 Speaker 3: do you feel that people looking at you in that 641 00:32:12,384 --> 00:32:13,904 Speaker 3: strange contemptuous way. 642 00:32:14,584 --> 00:32:16,824 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I remember being on the side of the 643 00:32:16,824 --> 00:32:19,064 Speaker 1: person who's contemptuous, and I write about it in the book, 644 00:32:19,384 --> 00:32:23,384 Speaker 1: these girls who were clearly going through something, and they 645 00:32:23,384 --> 00:32:26,224 Speaker 1: would be spoken about like, uh like of course, like 646 00:32:26,384 --> 00:32:27,704 Speaker 1: everyone was kind of jealous. 647 00:32:27,864 --> 00:32:29,584 Speaker 3: Yeah, in a lot of ways, so fucked up. 648 00:32:29,664 --> 00:32:32,424 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fucked Then as an adult, Yeah, there 649 00:32:32,464 --> 00:32:36,104 Speaker 1: was definitely times where if someone not necessarily criticized me, 650 00:32:36,144 --> 00:32:37,864 Speaker 1: but called it out. I'd be like, Okay, you're jealous 651 00:32:37,904 --> 00:32:40,864 Speaker 1: because and a lot of the time people were dieting, 652 00:32:41,224 --> 00:32:42,744 Speaker 1: and I was like, you're just jealous that I'm doing 653 00:32:42,744 --> 00:32:44,984 Speaker 1: it way better than you and I'm the boss of dieting. 654 00:32:45,944 --> 00:32:48,944 Speaker 1: But mostly honestly, I was just complimented all the time, 655 00:32:49,184 --> 00:32:51,664 Speaker 1: and like i'd go try on outfits, Like the people 656 00:32:51,664 --> 00:32:53,424 Speaker 1: working at the stores would be like, oh wow, like 657 00:32:53,464 --> 00:32:55,264 Speaker 1: you could wear anything like that look so good on 658 00:32:55,304 --> 00:32:58,264 Speaker 1: you to me, And I see it now. I feel 659 00:32:58,264 --> 00:33:00,424 Speaker 1: like it was obvious that I had an eating disorder 660 00:33:00,504 --> 00:33:03,664 Speaker 1: when I was definitely a low weight. There's also I 661 00:33:03,704 --> 00:33:05,984 Speaker 1: don't know, this is like my gut telling me to 662 00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:07,424 Speaker 1: say this. I'm not sure if it's true or not, 663 00:33:07,504 --> 00:33:10,744 Speaker 1: But like if I saw myself as some who's gone 664 00:33:10,784 --> 00:33:13,464 Speaker 1: through it, it would be very clear to me very quickly 665 00:33:13,664 --> 00:33:16,984 Speaker 1: what I was going through the way that my body looked, 666 00:33:17,544 --> 00:33:21,744 Speaker 1: my energy, my aura in a room. So the idea 667 00:33:21,784 --> 00:33:26,704 Speaker 1: that people were seeing that and kind of not and 668 00:33:26,744 --> 00:33:29,904 Speaker 1: thinking that it was normal or something to be jealous 669 00:33:29,944 --> 00:33:32,424 Speaker 1: of is crazy to me now. But I think it's 670 00:33:32,464 --> 00:33:35,104 Speaker 1: also normal to be jealous of something like that. Will valorize, 671 00:33:35,104 --> 00:33:36,624 Speaker 1: as you say, skinniness. 672 00:33:36,784 --> 00:33:40,744 Speaker 3: Yeah. When I worked in that residential treatment center. The 673 00:33:40,784 --> 00:33:42,904 Speaker 3: other thing I noticed, and you talk about this in 674 00:33:42,904 --> 00:33:48,344 Speaker 3: the book, is that these women who were dealing with 675 00:33:48,424 --> 00:33:52,104 Speaker 3: a variety of eating disorders, they had all the knowledge, 676 00:33:52,504 --> 00:33:56,784 Speaker 3: they had read all the research about their disorder how 677 00:33:56,784 --> 00:34:01,224 Speaker 3: to recover from it. Like they were like clinical psychologists 678 00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:05,104 Speaker 3: with what they knew, yet they weren't recovering. And I 679 00:34:05,144 --> 00:34:08,584 Speaker 3: think sometimes with mental illness, there's this difference between knowing 680 00:34:08,664 --> 00:34:13,224 Speaker 3: something and actually feeling it. When did that emotional shift 681 00:34:13,744 --> 00:34:16,664 Speaker 3: come for you? Because there has to be some other 682 00:34:17,424 --> 00:34:20,264 Speaker 3: You can know everything, but there's this moment of like, 683 00:34:21,264 --> 00:34:24,424 Speaker 3: oh this actually has to change that almost comes out 684 00:34:24,424 --> 00:34:25,624 Speaker 3: of your control. Yeah. 685 00:34:25,704 --> 00:34:27,704 Speaker 1: Oh. I love talking to you about these because I 686 00:34:27,744 --> 00:34:31,744 Speaker 1: just feel like you completely get it. You're so Yeah. 687 00:34:32,064 --> 00:34:33,544 Speaker 1: I think that's what a lot of people. When you're 688 00:34:33,544 --> 00:34:36,624 Speaker 1: experiencing a mental illness, you go real deep into it. 689 00:34:37,024 --> 00:34:39,664 Speaker 1: Like it's a warning sign. When I'm going on Reddit 690 00:34:40,224 --> 00:34:43,104 Speaker 1: to research how someone's feeling about something, Yeah, that's when 691 00:34:43,104 --> 00:34:44,784 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm deep in it, Yeah, and I don't 692 00:34:44,784 --> 00:34:48,424 Speaker 1: even realize. Yeah. I think that's also why I enjoyed 693 00:34:48,424 --> 00:34:50,744 Speaker 1: writing the book because I was so obsessed with eating 694 00:34:50,744 --> 00:34:52,824 Speaker 1: disorders when I had one, but I kind of had 695 00:34:52,824 --> 00:34:54,984 Speaker 1: the knowledge based so like I've. 696 00:34:54,784 --> 00:34:58,504 Speaker 3: Read all the studies about the experiments where people were hungry, 697 00:34:58,504 --> 00:35:01,744 Speaker 3: so they did all these behaviors that people with even 698 00:35:01,784 --> 00:35:04,264 Speaker 3: disorders then do, like you know, all of that stuff. 699 00:35:05,264 --> 00:35:07,784 Speaker 3: What I find interesting about your story is that it 700 00:35:07,824 --> 00:35:11,704 Speaker 3: was kind of a shitty thing happened to you that 701 00:35:11,824 --> 00:35:16,664 Speaker 3: really opened the door for recovery, which was getting let 702 00:35:16,704 --> 00:35:20,424 Speaker 3: go from pedestrian. Can you tell me about that period 703 00:35:20,464 --> 00:35:22,824 Speaker 3: of your life and how that kind of evolved into 704 00:35:23,584 --> 00:35:24,864 Speaker 3: starting a different phase. 705 00:35:25,464 --> 00:35:29,504 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so surprising when I got made redundant. 706 00:35:29,504 --> 00:35:31,104 Speaker 1: I mean, if you work in the media or any 707 00:35:31,144 --> 00:35:33,984 Speaker 1: kind of job like that, that happens quite a lot. 708 00:35:34,024 --> 00:35:35,584 Speaker 1: Doesn't really matter who you are or how good you 709 00:35:35,584 --> 00:35:37,984 Speaker 1: are at your job. I'd worked for the company for 710 00:35:37,984 --> 00:35:39,544 Speaker 1: four and a half years, and that's a pretty long 711 00:35:39,544 --> 00:35:41,824 Speaker 1: time in your twenties, I think, So just to be 712 00:35:41,904 --> 00:35:44,064 Speaker 1: let go over Zoom during COVID, I was like, oh 713 00:35:44,104 --> 00:35:46,464 Speaker 1: my god, my life is a nightmare, Like how did 714 00:35:46,464 --> 00:35:48,144 Speaker 1: this happen? And it's easy for me to kind of 715 00:35:48,704 --> 00:35:51,504 Speaker 1: laugh about myself back then now because it's worked out 716 00:35:51,544 --> 00:35:55,184 Speaker 1: well for me, but it gave me a moment to 717 00:35:55,224 --> 00:35:57,024 Speaker 1: look out of myself and be like, this can be 718 00:35:57,064 --> 00:35:59,264 Speaker 1: taken away from me at any moment, this career can 719 00:35:59,304 --> 00:36:01,744 Speaker 1: be taken away from me at any moment. I'm tailoring 720 00:36:01,784 --> 00:36:04,304 Speaker 1: my whole life around this job, and now it's gone, 721 00:36:04,664 --> 00:36:06,984 Speaker 1: So where am I going to get that sense of self? 722 00:36:08,264 --> 00:36:09,904 Speaker 1: It was such a weird time. It was all kind 723 00:36:09,904 --> 00:36:12,624 Speaker 1: of serendie that this happened during COVID because all the 724 00:36:12,664 --> 00:36:16,464 Speaker 1: gyms were closed. You couldn't socialize, so everyone kind of 725 00:36:17,504 --> 00:36:20,824 Speaker 1: contracted kind of closer to my world in a lot 726 00:36:20,824 --> 00:36:25,664 Speaker 1: of ways, which again, yeah, I think it like opened 727 00:36:25,704 --> 00:36:27,784 Speaker 1: up the door for me to recreate myself. I think 728 00:36:27,784 --> 00:36:29,504 Speaker 1: it could have gone either way, Like it was sad 729 00:36:29,544 --> 00:36:31,064 Speaker 1: getting a major John, and I think I could have 730 00:36:31,104 --> 00:36:34,664 Speaker 1: gone more deeper into restricting as a means for control. 731 00:36:35,184 --> 00:36:38,944 Speaker 1: But I think I was at that point where I 732 00:36:39,024 --> 00:36:42,384 Speaker 1: was open to the idea of relaxing my rules. It 733 00:36:42,424 --> 00:36:43,664 Speaker 1: was giving the end of the world vibes. 734 00:36:44,904 --> 00:36:48,384 Speaker 3: If the world's ending, I'm not gonna be fucking hungry. 735 00:36:49,344 --> 00:36:50,064 Speaker 1: I got to enjoy this. 736 00:36:50,264 --> 00:36:53,424 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And so once you relaxed 737 00:36:53,664 --> 00:36:57,024 Speaker 3: those rules, then what happened. 738 00:36:57,944 --> 00:37:03,744 Speaker 1: Yes, so I gained weight and mentally I became more relaxed. 739 00:37:03,744 --> 00:37:05,664 Speaker 1: To be honest, what happened was I went back into 740 00:37:05,664 --> 00:37:07,864 Speaker 1: binge eating, which is what I'd experienced prior to the 741 00:37:07,944 --> 00:37:12,424 Speaker 1: restrictive eating disorder. That was really confronting and upsetting. The 742 00:37:12,504 --> 00:37:15,464 Speaker 1: mentality is similar to a binge itself, which is I thought, 743 00:37:15,784 --> 00:37:18,024 Speaker 1: all week I've been so good, or like all the 744 00:37:18,104 --> 00:37:19,864 Speaker 1: last two or three years, I've been so good, and 745 00:37:19,864 --> 00:37:22,304 Speaker 1: now it's the weekend and I'm sending it and I 746 00:37:22,304 --> 00:37:24,544 Speaker 1: could have just been eating normal the whole time. That's 747 00:37:24,544 --> 00:37:27,024 Speaker 1: how it felt. Felt like I'd wasted all this time. 748 00:37:27,624 --> 00:37:29,824 Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of competing things that are 749 00:37:29,864 --> 00:37:34,184 Speaker 1: upsetting and disturbing. What I read, and even when it 750 00:37:34,224 --> 00:37:36,144 Speaker 1: was happening to me, I didn't want to believe it 751 00:37:36,184 --> 00:37:38,664 Speaker 1: is that weight gain is so important. Weight gain is 752 00:37:38,664 --> 00:37:41,584 Speaker 1: the number one key. Eating is the number one key. 753 00:37:42,504 --> 00:37:45,824 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I got help from a specialist who 754 00:37:45,904 --> 00:37:49,704 Speaker 1: understood that that I could actually reap the benefits of 755 00:37:49,744 --> 00:37:52,504 Speaker 1: that eating, which is getting more fuel to your brain, 756 00:37:52,664 --> 00:37:56,144 Speaker 1: being able to make more rational decisions. But that's always 757 00:37:56,504 --> 00:38:00,344 Speaker 1: the hardest bit because you're facing your biggest fear, and 758 00:38:00,504 --> 00:38:02,864 Speaker 1: when you are really sick and you and it manifestos 759 00:38:02,904 --> 00:38:05,624 Speaker 1: being depressed, you're like, well, I don't want to be 760 00:38:05,744 --> 00:38:07,784 Speaker 1: fat and depressed, and now IM going to be fat 761 00:38:07,824 --> 00:38:10,784 Speaker 1: and depressed rather than skinny and depressed. And because being 762 00:38:10,784 --> 00:38:13,784 Speaker 1: skinny is the number one thing in my life, I'd 763 00:38:13,824 --> 00:38:17,864 Speaker 1: rather skinny and depressed. But what happens if you finally 764 00:38:18,224 --> 00:38:21,664 Speaker 1: have enough guardrails in your life that you can push 765 00:38:21,744 --> 00:38:24,664 Speaker 1: yourself a little bit and like, take one step forward 766 00:38:24,744 --> 00:38:26,664 Speaker 1: and do the thing, gain the weight or eat a 767 00:38:26,704 --> 00:38:30,544 Speaker 1: bit more. Then everything starts opening up. You take a step, 768 00:38:30,544 --> 00:38:32,024 Speaker 1: Sione said the other day, and it's a bit woo woo, 769 00:38:32,104 --> 00:38:34,344 Speaker 1: but like when you take one step forward, the universe 770 00:38:34,384 --> 00:38:37,144 Speaker 1: takes a step forward too. Yeah, that mental image really 771 00:38:37,184 --> 00:38:39,704 Speaker 1: resonated with me because that's how it felt. I didn't 772 00:38:39,704 --> 00:38:41,464 Speaker 1: want to write a book that was from a place 773 00:38:41,744 --> 00:38:44,304 Speaker 1: of total recovery where I'm talking about loving yourself and 774 00:38:44,904 --> 00:38:47,384 Speaker 1: it's crazy to diet. That is kind of what I say, 775 00:38:48,104 --> 00:38:50,144 Speaker 1: but I wanted to keep enough detail in there for 776 00:38:50,184 --> 00:38:52,784 Speaker 1: people to know. No, I think I know how you feel. 777 00:38:52,784 --> 00:38:54,744 Speaker 1: I don't want to say that I do, because everyone's different, 778 00:38:55,304 --> 00:38:58,824 Speaker 1: but just know that I feel like, I know what 779 00:38:58,824 --> 00:39:00,904 Speaker 1: you're going through right now, and I want to be 780 00:39:02,344 --> 00:39:04,664 Speaker 1: not an example necessarily, but I just want to show 781 00:39:04,984 --> 00:39:08,344 Speaker 1: a certain life that I've cultivated post eating disorder. It's 782 00:39:08,344 --> 00:39:10,184 Speaker 1: like it's in a whole different realm. It's not way better, 783 00:39:10,144 --> 00:39:13,104 Speaker 1: it's completely different life that I always wanted since I 784 00:39:13,144 --> 00:39:14,704 Speaker 1: was a little kid, and I've got it now. 785 00:39:15,704 --> 00:39:18,464 Speaker 3: And you also say in the book that for a 786 00:39:18,464 --> 00:39:24,224 Speaker 3: lot of people, you hear that you can never fully 787 00:39:24,264 --> 00:39:27,824 Speaker 3: recover from an eating disorder. That you partially recover or 788 00:39:28,464 --> 00:39:30,624 Speaker 3: I think some research as it takes like seven years 789 00:39:30,664 --> 00:39:32,944 Speaker 3: to recover, and from the work I did, you would 790 00:39:32,984 --> 00:39:35,064 Speaker 3: see people come in and out and in and out 791 00:39:35,104 --> 00:39:40,144 Speaker 3: of residential treatment of impatient treatment, and that must be 792 00:39:40,224 --> 00:39:43,024 Speaker 3: a kind of scary feeling when you're doing this really 793 00:39:43,024 --> 00:39:45,264 Speaker 3: hard thing and then thinking, well, I'm not even going 794 00:39:45,344 --> 00:39:47,664 Speaker 3: to fully recover from this, or I could do all 795 00:39:47,664 --> 00:39:50,664 Speaker 3: this work and then I'll be back here anyway. What 796 00:39:50,904 --> 00:39:55,504 Speaker 3: do you think were some of the really clarifying moments 797 00:39:55,544 --> 00:39:57,984 Speaker 3: for your recovery that allowed you to recover fully. 798 00:39:58,904 --> 00:40:02,944 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're always going into it being not one hundred 799 00:40:02,944 --> 00:40:05,184 Speaker 1: percent sure how it's going to turn out. And again, 800 00:40:05,224 --> 00:40:07,264 Speaker 1: it's easy to look back now and see the really 801 00:40:07,264 --> 00:40:10,904 Speaker 1: specific moments where I was making really big lead, but 802 00:40:11,024 --> 00:40:12,744 Speaker 1: at the time it's like you're in the dark trying 803 00:40:12,744 --> 00:40:15,904 Speaker 1: to feel around. Yeah. I always found that narrative that 804 00:40:16,184 --> 00:40:20,024 Speaker 1: full recovery is not possible really upsetting, and because I 805 00:40:20,064 --> 00:40:21,944 Speaker 1: remember when I was, especially when I was binge eating, 806 00:40:21,944 --> 00:40:23,624 Speaker 1: and I talk about this in the book. I found 807 00:40:23,624 --> 00:40:25,264 Speaker 1: out that my mom did the same thing at the 808 00:40:25,264 --> 00:40:28,584 Speaker 1: same age, which was super illuminating and crazy to me 809 00:40:29,184 --> 00:40:31,264 Speaker 1: because when I was binging. When I first started, I 810 00:40:31,264 --> 00:40:33,584 Speaker 1: thought I'd invented binging and purging. I was like, oh 811 00:40:33,664 --> 00:40:35,824 Speaker 1: my god, I found his cheek code. I didn't need 812 00:40:35,824 --> 00:40:37,584 Speaker 1: anyone to teach me how to do that. I did 813 00:40:37,624 --> 00:40:40,744 Speaker 1: it myself. Oh my god. My mum would say to me, 814 00:40:41,304 --> 00:40:43,424 Speaker 1: God bless her. She didn't mean this to kind of 815 00:40:43,464 --> 00:40:45,824 Speaker 1: keep me trapped, but I struggled with it. She was like, 816 00:40:46,624 --> 00:40:49,984 Speaker 1: one day I just woke up and it stopped. It's 817 00:40:50,024 --> 00:40:53,144 Speaker 1: like if there was a switch that was flicked, and 818 00:40:53,184 --> 00:40:55,824 Speaker 1: that really I struggled with that because I never felt that. 819 00:40:56,624 --> 00:40:59,104 Speaker 1: Looking back, I can see moments where the switch was 820 00:40:59,144 --> 00:41:02,704 Speaker 1: actually flicked. But it's so important. I think you can 821 00:41:02,784 --> 00:41:05,104 Speaker 1: wait around and think Oh wait, no, I'm going to recover. 822 00:41:05,144 --> 00:41:06,264 Speaker 1: It's going to come to me. It's going to come 823 00:41:06,304 --> 00:41:09,064 Speaker 1: to me. When in actuality, it's continually taking steps and 824 00:41:09,064 --> 00:41:11,184 Speaker 1: steps and steps, and then by the time you take 825 00:41:11,184 --> 00:41:12,784 Speaker 1: the biggest step, then you start going like this and 826 00:41:12,784 --> 00:41:16,424 Speaker 1: it's fine. But yeah, I think the idea that it's 827 00:41:16,504 --> 00:41:20,944 Speaker 1: never possible to recover, I just think that keeps people 828 00:41:21,464 --> 00:41:22,904 Speaker 1: from taking steps. Yeah. 829 00:41:23,984 --> 00:41:28,464 Speaker 3: What should you not say to somebody who's recovered from 830 00:41:28,464 --> 00:41:29,344 Speaker 3: an eating disorder? 831 00:41:29,504 --> 00:41:34,464 Speaker 1: You look healthy? No more. Yeah, that's the classic that's 832 00:41:34,464 --> 00:41:38,384 Speaker 1: been around forever. You look healthy. Yeah, thanks for nicing. 833 00:41:38,464 --> 00:41:40,784 Speaker 1: Thank you for pulling me out of myself and reminding 834 00:41:40,824 --> 00:41:43,024 Speaker 1: me that I have a body that I'm trying to 835 00:41:43,064 --> 00:41:46,464 Speaker 1: not prioritize so well meaning I still get it to 836 00:41:46,504 --> 00:41:48,864 Speaker 1: this day. I still have family friends who stop me 837 00:41:49,064 --> 00:41:51,464 Speaker 1: after lunch and say, hey, you look really. 838 00:41:51,264 --> 00:41:56,104 Speaker 3: Good, and you're like, I, that's not the points the 839 00:41:56,144 --> 00:41:59,824 Speaker 3: point do you think you just don't comment on appearance. 840 00:42:00,584 --> 00:42:02,624 Speaker 1: I think you have to, and I think it's something 841 00:42:02,704 --> 00:42:04,864 Speaker 1: that is a muscle that you have to. I stop 842 00:42:04,904 --> 00:42:06,544 Speaker 1: myself all the time. I even said it to your 843 00:42:06,544 --> 00:42:09,224 Speaker 1: beautiful producer. I couldn't help myself. You get such nice hair, 844 00:42:09,704 --> 00:42:11,104 Speaker 1: And even then I was like, I don't think I 845 00:42:11,144 --> 00:42:13,424 Speaker 1: should be saying this, So I said, haircut? Is that 846 00:42:13,464 --> 00:42:16,224 Speaker 1: something you can change? But you know, even that, I'd 847 00:42:16,224 --> 00:42:18,584 Speaker 1: really try not to. I've been around people in my 848 00:42:18,624 --> 00:42:21,424 Speaker 1: life who've shown me a different perspective and been like, say, 849 00:42:21,464 --> 00:42:23,824 Speaker 1: someone wears like really outrageous clothes or something that other 850 00:42:23,864 --> 00:42:27,024 Speaker 1: people deem outrageous. If you say whoa, If you're like 851 00:42:27,264 --> 00:42:29,144 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't dress like that, and you say, WHOA, 852 00:42:29,144 --> 00:42:32,344 Speaker 1: you look great, it doesn't feel sincere. There's so many 853 00:42:32,384 --> 00:42:34,264 Speaker 1: different You don't know where someone is in their life 854 00:42:34,624 --> 00:42:38,144 Speaker 1: and there how they feel about themselves to do it 855 00:42:38,184 --> 00:42:40,224 Speaker 1: in a way that's not dangerous. I feel I was 856 00:42:40,304 --> 00:42:43,224 Speaker 1: very sensitive when I had my eating disorder, and so 857 00:42:43,304 --> 00:42:45,504 Speaker 1: I just try not to do it. My rule is 858 00:42:45,744 --> 00:42:47,744 Speaker 1: you compliment things you can take on and off, and 859 00:42:47,864 --> 00:42:48,944 Speaker 1: only if you really mean it. 860 00:42:50,384 --> 00:42:54,344 Speaker 3: So even if there was somebody in your life who 861 00:42:54,624 --> 00:43:00,264 Speaker 3: you knew was trying to lose weight, and you knew 862 00:43:00,424 --> 00:43:02,584 Speaker 3: enough to think that maybe it was just for health 863 00:43:02,624 --> 00:43:05,624 Speaker 3: reasons and there was nothing sinister about it, would you 864 00:43:05,664 --> 00:43:06,664 Speaker 3: still not say anything. 865 00:43:07,784 --> 00:43:10,184 Speaker 1: Well, I think that if it's for health reasons, then 866 00:43:10,224 --> 00:43:14,024 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be relevant that they look different. But also, 867 00:43:14,024 --> 00:43:16,584 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's people who want to lose weight and 868 00:43:16,584 --> 00:43:18,704 Speaker 1: it isn't a full blown eating disorder, and they probably 869 00:43:18,704 --> 00:43:21,584 Speaker 1: want to hear that. But I just think that we 870 00:43:21,664 --> 00:43:25,544 Speaker 1: can't divorce the piousness of being thin from anything else. 871 00:43:25,544 --> 00:43:28,304 Speaker 1: So it does feel like a character judgment when you say, oh, 872 00:43:28,384 --> 00:43:31,904 Speaker 1: you're losing weight. Yeah, because ninety seven percent of diets 873 00:43:32,264 --> 00:43:33,864 Speaker 1: don't work in the long run, So they're going to 874 00:43:33,864 --> 00:43:35,624 Speaker 1: gain it back and they're going to feel bad because 875 00:43:35,624 --> 00:43:37,944 Speaker 1: they're going to remember that if you're going to compliment 876 00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:40,624 Speaker 1: them on the way down when I'm on the way 877 00:43:40,624 --> 00:43:45,544 Speaker 1: back up, you must think I'm insert derogatory term. 878 00:43:45,544 --> 00:43:56,544 Speaker 3: More of my conversation with rooms after the break right now, 879 00:43:56,664 --> 00:44:00,144 Speaker 3: you have a very loyal following and you share really 880 00:44:00,184 --> 00:44:02,984 Speaker 3: really funny content. You've been doing that for a long 881 00:44:03,024 --> 00:44:08,184 Speaker 3: time in internet years. Sharing on the internet comes with feedback. 882 00:44:08,824 --> 00:44:12,784 Speaker 3: Now that you've been through that whole experience of going 883 00:44:12,824 --> 00:44:17,304 Speaker 3: through recovery for a mental illness and working on self 884 00:44:17,384 --> 00:44:19,984 Speaker 3: esteem and self worth, do you get affected by what 885 00:44:20,024 --> 00:44:23,184 Speaker 3: people write about you on the internet? Yeah, what are 886 00:44:23,224 --> 00:44:25,704 Speaker 3: the comments that actually hurt? 887 00:44:26,464 --> 00:44:29,144 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally know what you mean. For me. The thing 888 00:44:29,184 --> 00:44:31,544 Speaker 1: that actually affects me, and this happened last night with 889 00:44:31,624 --> 00:44:35,224 Speaker 1: a guy. It's when men comment on my body. Yeah, 890 00:44:35,544 --> 00:44:39,104 Speaker 1: and they're never really saying anything bad. Yeah, it's always 891 00:44:39,144 --> 00:44:42,904 Speaker 1: about my figure, my big boobs, this or that. That 892 00:44:42,944 --> 00:44:45,384 Speaker 1: affected me, especially prior to the book coming out, because 893 00:44:45,424 --> 00:44:48,104 Speaker 1: I have breast implants and so when I had them out, 894 00:44:48,344 --> 00:44:51,504 Speaker 1: when I wore a top that wasn't a fucking Hessian bag, 895 00:44:52,024 --> 00:44:54,064 Speaker 1: that would affect me because I'd feel like I'd ask 896 00:44:54,184 --> 00:44:57,344 Speaker 1: for it and I felt like an idiot. I just 897 00:44:57,704 --> 00:45:00,304 Speaker 1: made me feel so small, and it was annoying because 898 00:45:00,304 --> 00:45:02,104 Speaker 1: people would be like, oh, like, it's just men, of 899 00:45:02,144 --> 00:45:03,344 Speaker 1: course they're going to do that. But I was like, 900 00:45:04,024 --> 00:45:06,104 Speaker 1: it makes me cry, and I don't know why because 901 00:45:06,104 --> 00:45:08,464 Speaker 1: it shouldn't. Like there's other stuff that people say that 902 00:45:08,504 --> 00:45:11,224 Speaker 1: should make me cry. But I think I'm pretty. I 903 00:45:11,264 --> 00:45:15,144 Speaker 1: have a lot of self esteem about my ability to work. 904 00:45:15,944 --> 00:45:18,504 Speaker 1: I like myself as a writer. I think I have 905 00:45:18,544 --> 00:45:20,304 Speaker 1: a good eye for things, so I can sit quite 906 00:45:20,304 --> 00:45:23,024 Speaker 1: comfortably in that. But when it comes to my body, 907 00:45:23,864 --> 00:45:26,344 Speaker 1: it really affects me. It's weird. And yeah, when men 908 00:45:26,504 --> 00:45:30,024 Speaker 1: make comments about my mummy milkeruse, Oh. 909 00:45:30,024 --> 00:45:31,584 Speaker 3: It's such the mummy milk is thing. 910 00:45:31,824 --> 00:45:35,624 Speaker 1: It is so intense, like horrible. It's comments like that 911 00:45:35,624 --> 00:45:37,424 Speaker 1: that really affect me again because it makes me feel 912 00:45:37,424 --> 00:45:40,064 Speaker 1: like an idiot, and especially because I have breast implants. 913 00:45:40,264 --> 00:45:42,264 Speaker 1: It plays into this narrative that I have in my 914 00:45:42,304 --> 00:45:46,224 Speaker 1: head that I've asked for it, So that affects me. 915 00:45:46,584 --> 00:45:48,424 Speaker 1: I just hate it because it pulls me out of 916 00:45:48,424 --> 00:45:50,624 Speaker 1: myself because I think to myself, Oh, I'm having fun 917 00:45:50,664 --> 00:45:52,584 Speaker 1: on the internet. I've just got fun. People that get 918 00:45:52,584 --> 00:45:54,744 Speaker 1: it are watching me, and then I remember, oh, no, 919 00:45:54,824 --> 00:45:58,104 Speaker 1: there's this whole silent audience of people who don't give 920 00:45:58,104 --> 00:45:59,824 Speaker 1: a fuck what I have to say. They don't think 921 00:45:59,824 --> 00:46:02,224 Speaker 1: I'm funny. They just see this woman on the internet 922 00:46:02,384 --> 00:46:05,144 Speaker 1: who has big boobs. Yeah. Yeah, So comments like that 923 00:46:05,224 --> 00:46:07,264 Speaker 1: upset me because yeah. 924 00:46:07,144 --> 00:46:09,944 Speaker 3: I get that. There's a weird kind of like I 925 00:46:09,944 --> 00:46:12,904 Speaker 3: don't know shame is the word, but you feel like 926 00:46:12,904 --> 00:46:14,944 Speaker 3: sexualized when it's like I have not been complicit in 927 00:46:14,944 --> 00:46:20,024 Speaker 3: this sexualization, Like no, and I think women you do 928 00:46:20,104 --> 00:46:22,904 Speaker 3: feel silly. Like I remember I was working once in 929 00:46:22,944 --> 00:46:27,944 Speaker 3: a bar and just wearing something I thought was totally normal, 930 00:46:28,384 --> 00:46:31,024 Speaker 3: and a guy just stared at my boobs and made 931 00:46:31,064 --> 00:46:35,984 Speaker 3: a really vulgar comment, and I felt like sick. Oh, 932 00:46:36,064 --> 00:46:37,464 Speaker 3: and I think it was the same thing. It's like, 933 00:46:37,544 --> 00:46:39,504 Speaker 3: did I do this? Am I complicit because I'm not 934 00:46:39,584 --> 00:46:43,024 Speaker 3: wearing a turtleneck? I think maybe I asked for it. Yeah, 935 00:46:43,024 --> 00:46:44,104 Speaker 3: it's the weirdest thing. 936 00:46:44,424 --> 00:46:47,904 Speaker 1: It's so bad. Yeah, you feel yeah, it's shame. Yeah, 937 00:46:47,944 --> 00:46:51,824 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a shame or yeah, it's shame. Oh. 938 00:46:52,024 --> 00:46:54,184 Speaker 1: And then I think about it. I'm like, wait, no, bitch, 939 00:46:54,264 --> 00:46:56,224 Speaker 1: I'm going to the beach. Yeah. And you wouldn't be 940 00:46:56,224 --> 00:46:58,144 Speaker 1: making this comment if I you. 941 00:46:58,104 --> 00:47:03,184 Speaker 3: Know, yeah, exactly. Working in this industry, do you experience 942 00:47:03,424 --> 00:47:07,224 Speaker 3: jealousy or competitiveness and what does that look like? 943 00:47:07,784 --> 00:47:08,024 Speaker 1: Yes? 944 00:47:08,104 --> 00:47:08,424 Speaker 3: I do. 945 00:47:09,024 --> 00:47:11,464 Speaker 1: I always have in a way, kind of in a 946 00:47:11,504 --> 00:47:14,464 Speaker 1: silent way. I remember when I was in Uni, there 947 00:47:14,464 --> 00:47:18,304 Speaker 1: was a woman who was really smart and she was 948 00:47:18,384 --> 00:47:20,104 Speaker 1: kind of the best in the class, would always get 949 00:47:20,304 --> 00:47:23,624 Speaker 1: really high distinctions. And I don't think I'm a competitive person, 950 00:47:23,664 --> 00:47:24,664 Speaker 1: but clearly I am. 951 00:47:25,304 --> 00:47:26,704 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that. 952 00:47:26,784 --> 00:47:29,744 Speaker 1: I remember I won't dox her name, but she was 953 00:47:29,824 --> 00:47:35,504 Speaker 1: just really just effortlessly good. And it became like a 954 00:47:35,544 --> 00:47:37,944 Speaker 1: topic in my psychology sessions because I was so hung 955 00:47:37,984 --> 00:47:40,384 Speaker 1: up on it. And it plays into that obsessive personality, 956 00:47:40,424 --> 00:47:44,304 Speaker 1: the rumination thinking, oh, like she's just so good, Like 957 00:47:44,544 --> 00:47:47,104 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do, and so yeah, when 958 00:47:47,104 --> 00:47:51,624 Speaker 1: I feel jealousy, especially in this career path, it shows 959 00:47:51,664 --> 00:47:53,864 Speaker 1: me where to go when I can take enough of 960 00:47:53,864 --> 00:47:55,424 Speaker 1: a step out of it for a second and not 961 00:47:55,504 --> 00:47:58,384 Speaker 1: let the emotion overtake me. I say that person, I'm 962 00:47:58,384 --> 00:48:00,144 Speaker 1: so jealous of them because they're doing something that I 963 00:48:00,144 --> 00:48:03,104 Speaker 1: want to do. Then I go into planning mode. I'm like, Okay, 964 00:48:03,104 --> 00:48:05,704 Speaker 1: how can I do what they're doing? What part of it? 965 00:48:05,904 --> 00:48:08,104 Speaker 1: You know? Because sometimes it happens with people who job 966 00:48:08,144 --> 00:48:10,704 Speaker 1: I don't want and whose vibe I don't want to late, 967 00:48:10,744 --> 00:48:13,224 Speaker 1: but I'm still thinking, oh, but they're doing this thing, 968 00:48:13,304 --> 00:48:17,344 Speaker 1: like how do I So Yeah, I think it can ultimately, 969 00:48:17,384 --> 00:48:19,064 Speaker 1: when you can take a step away, it can be 970 00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:22,824 Speaker 1: a good motivating force. But definitely when it's overwhelming, it 971 00:48:22,944 --> 00:48:26,024 Speaker 1: just paralyzes you and I fully spiral. 972 00:48:26,384 --> 00:48:29,064 Speaker 3: It can be really clarifying that Yeah, you think, if 973 00:48:29,104 --> 00:48:32,064 Speaker 3: I've got this feeling and it's an uncomfortable feeling, then 974 00:48:32,104 --> 00:48:35,264 Speaker 3: it is telling me something about what I want. And 975 00:48:35,344 --> 00:48:40,064 Speaker 3: if I didn't get that feeling, ever, I wouldn't be ambitious, 976 00:48:40,144 --> 00:48:43,104 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have goals and I feel exactly the same thing, 977 00:48:43,184 --> 00:48:45,264 Speaker 3: feel the same yeah, And I think, yeah, you look 978 00:48:45,264 --> 00:48:49,704 Speaker 3: at you probably have it with a book, like as 979 00:48:49,744 --> 00:48:51,664 Speaker 3: you were writing, like looking at people who have books 980 00:48:51,664 --> 00:48:52,904 Speaker 3: and me like, well, that's done really well. Well, that's 981 00:48:52,944 --> 00:48:54,104 Speaker 3: done really well. Why did that do well? 982 00:48:54,144 --> 00:48:54,264 Speaker 2: They? 983 00:48:54,264 --> 00:48:56,504 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I want exactly what they have And 984 00:48:56,544 --> 00:48:58,144 Speaker 3: it kind of paves a path for then you to 985 00:48:58,144 --> 00:49:01,864 Speaker 3: do the same thing, literally, which is very exciting. When 986 00:49:02,584 --> 00:49:04,744 Speaker 3: are you at your happiest at the moment? 987 00:49:05,504 --> 00:49:10,304 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm at my happiest when I have so much 988 00:49:10,464 --> 00:49:12,864 Speaker 1: to my diary to look forward to. That's always been 989 00:49:12,864 --> 00:49:15,104 Speaker 1: the thing for me that's gotten me out of any phase. 990 00:49:15,584 --> 00:49:17,424 Speaker 1: Is it just need one or two things that I'm 991 00:49:17,664 --> 00:49:24,144 Speaker 1: genuinely excited about and there's always something. I think. I'm 992 00:49:24,144 --> 00:49:27,864 Speaker 1: happy when I'm meeting you people and always just having 993 00:49:27,904 --> 00:49:29,864 Speaker 1: someone to hang out with. Have become a really social 994 00:49:29,904 --> 00:49:33,984 Speaker 1: person after my eating disorder. Yeah, it's just for me 995 00:49:34,024 --> 00:49:35,504 Speaker 1: whenever I've got something to look forward to. 996 00:49:36,304 --> 00:49:39,384 Speaker 3: What are your challenges to happiness? Like, what keeps you 997 00:49:39,424 --> 00:49:40,664 Speaker 3: from happiness? 998 00:49:41,384 --> 00:49:46,664 Speaker 1: Comparison obviously procrastinating when I've got things to do, I've 999 00:49:46,664 --> 00:49:48,664 Speaker 1: become a bit of a procrastinator also coming out of 1000 00:49:48,704 --> 00:49:50,184 Speaker 1: eating disorder, to be honest, which is a bit of 1001 00:49:50,184 --> 00:49:52,584 Speaker 1: a negative, Like I used to be super early to 1002 00:49:52,664 --> 00:49:55,264 Speaker 1: things and very rigi and it helped away, but now 1003 00:49:55,344 --> 00:49:57,344 Speaker 1: I'm always running a little bit late. You know, when 1004 00:49:57,384 --> 00:50:00,184 Speaker 1: you've got something so menial to do that you just 1005 00:50:00,184 --> 00:50:01,904 Speaker 1: put it off and then everything feels crab. 1006 00:50:02,184 --> 00:50:05,064 Speaker 3: That's interesting though, because it's almost like that's what happens 1007 00:50:05,104 --> 00:50:08,264 Speaker 3: when you prioritize joy a little bit, when you're like, 1008 00:50:08,304 --> 00:50:11,504 Speaker 3: hold on, I actually care about feeling good. I remember 1009 00:50:11,864 --> 00:50:15,064 Speaker 3: reading something about how people with eating disorders they don't 1010 00:50:15,184 --> 00:50:18,184 Speaker 3: like doing things that feel good, so they won't get massages, 1011 00:50:18,304 --> 00:50:21,344 Speaker 3: they won't like get their hair done because there's not 1012 00:50:21,384 --> 00:50:24,944 Speaker 3: that kind of self love. And that's interesting that you 1013 00:50:24,984 --> 00:50:28,104 Speaker 3: were probably prompt with things and because you didn't mind 1014 00:50:28,144 --> 00:50:31,984 Speaker 3: being uncomfortable because you were always so true, whereas now 1015 00:50:32,024 --> 00:50:35,024 Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I prioritize toy. Yeah thats me. 1016 00:50:35,344 --> 00:50:37,824 Speaker 1: My to do list will roll over week to weeks 1017 00:50:37,864 --> 00:50:41,384 Speaker 1: before I'm doing it second right now. That's kind of fun. 1018 00:50:41,424 --> 00:50:45,264 Speaker 1: And if it makes you feel weary in life, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1019 00:50:45,304 --> 00:50:46,344 Speaker 1: I think I think that's it. 1020 00:50:46,544 --> 00:50:50,424 Speaker 3: Yeah, when you think about growing old, what do you 1021 00:50:50,504 --> 00:50:55,064 Speaker 3: still want in life in order for you to have 1022 00:50:55,144 --> 00:50:56,784 Speaker 3: lived a really happy existence. 1023 00:50:57,824 --> 00:51:01,584 Speaker 1: I want a community. I want like a big family. 1024 00:51:02,424 --> 00:51:04,624 Speaker 1: I want to have people around me that enjoy my company. 1025 00:51:05,944 --> 00:51:07,424 Speaker 1: I want to have young people around me and old 1026 00:51:07,464 --> 00:51:10,904 Speaker 1: people around me. I want to maintain this sense of 1027 00:51:11,064 --> 00:51:13,184 Speaker 1: excitement that I have, and that's kind of always been 1028 00:51:13,224 --> 00:51:15,024 Speaker 1: a hallmark of my life. Like I've always been kind 1029 00:51:15,024 --> 00:51:17,024 Speaker 1: of like an enthusiastic person. I don't even want that 1030 00:51:17,064 --> 00:51:21,384 Speaker 1: to go away. I think, yeah, really important relationships, really 1031 00:51:21,424 --> 00:51:25,024 Speaker 1: deep relationships. I've got a lot of like amazing soulmate friends, 1032 00:51:25,664 --> 00:51:29,504 Speaker 1: So keeping them nourishing them feels really good to me, 1033 00:51:29,584 --> 00:51:31,664 Speaker 1: and it always has, and I know how lucky I 1034 00:51:31,664 --> 00:51:34,504 Speaker 1: am to have. Like my best friend Madison is a writer. 1035 00:51:35,104 --> 00:51:37,984 Speaker 1: We've been best friends since we were fourteen, and that's 1036 00:51:38,024 --> 00:51:41,424 Speaker 1: such something that is a little apple core that I 1037 00:51:41,504 --> 00:51:43,184 Speaker 1: just put in the ground and it just continues to 1038 00:51:43,224 --> 00:51:45,504 Speaker 1: grow and it's such a beautiful thing to watch. And 1039 00:51:45,624 --> 00:51:48,784 Speaker 1: every year that we remain friends adds a little corn 1040 00:51:48,824 --> 00:51:51,864 Speaker 1: to the tree. So exciting. So yeah, I think for me, 1041 00:51:52,584 --> 00:51:55,824 Speaker 1: I'm excited that the idea of getting older that I 1042 00:51:55,824 --> 00:51:59,104 Speaker 1: can like accumulate lovely possessions that I love and like 1043 00:51:59,224 --> 00:52:02,384 Speaker 1: beautiful clothes, and there's still that material side to me 1044 00:52:02,424 --> 00:52:06,024 Speaker 1: that I really can't get rid of. But yeah, having 1045 00:52:06,064 --> 00:52:08,624 Speaker 1: a community and people that I love is important to me. 1046 00:52:09,504 --> 00:52:11,944 Speaker 3: And right now in your life, are you happy? 1047 00:52:12,544 --> 00:52:16,144 Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, you can sell it right. That is so 1048 00:52:16,224 --> 00:52:20,024 Speaker 1: good to hear. I'm happy that you read my book twice. Yeah, 1049 00:52:20,064 --> 00:52:21,424 Speaker 1: that's enough to do me for the day. 1050 00:52:22,344 --> 00:52:24,384 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for your time. I really 1051 00:52:24,424 --> 00:52:28,864 Speaker 3: appreciate it. That is all we've got time for on 1052 00:52:28,904 --> 00:52:32,544 Speaker 3: today's episode of But Are You Happy? Frums's new book, 1053 00:52:32,664 --> 00:52:34,984 Speaker 3: All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot is out 1054 00:52:35,064 --> 00:52:37,744 Speaker 3: now and I highly recommend it. We will pop a 1055 00:52:37,784 --> 00:52:41,424 Speaker 3: link in the show notes. This conversation was such a 1056 00:52:41,464 --> 00:52:46,424 Speaker 3: brilliant exploration of the pain of living through an eating 1057 00:52:46,424 --> 00:52:49,744 Speaker 3: disorder and the joy that comes with recovery, which we 1058 00:52:49,904 --> 00:52:53,864 Speaker 3: so rarely get to see. To sit in a room 1059 00:52:54,224 --> 00:52:58,504 Speaker 3: with frooms with enter Price is to see a person 1060 00:52:58,784 --> 00:53:03,744 Speaker 3: who is so full of life and so charismatic, and 1061 00:53:04,744 --> 00:53:07,264 Speaker 3: I sometimes need this reminder. So I'm just going to 1062 00:53:07,304 --> 00:53:08,824 Speaker 3: say it out loud that when you sit in a 1063 00:53:08,904 --> 00:53:11,024 Speaker 3: room with somebody and you really can connect with them 1064 00:53:11,784 --> 00:53:19,944 Speaker 3: and you have a lively and vulnerable conversation. It just 1065 00:53:20,144 --> 00:53:23,704 Speaker 3: does not matter what they look like, what size they are, 1066 00:53:24,664 --> 00:53:27,704 Speaker 3: whether their hair or makeup or clothing is perfect, whether 1067 00:53:27,744 --> 00:53:30,024 Speaker 3: they have creases on their face, which I do and 1068 00:53:30,144 --> 00:53:33,384 Speaker 3: I think about way too much. You just feel their energy, 1069 00:53:33,864 --> 00:53:36,504 Speaker 3: and I think it's such a good reminder for all 1070 00:53:36,544 --> 00:53:40,344 Speaker 3: of us that we think about it so much more 1071 00:53:40,904 --> 00:53:43,984 Speaker 3: than we need to, given that it isn't what anybody 1072 00:53:43,984 --> 00:53:48,544 Speaker 3: else values about us. I really hope this chat was 1073 00:53:48,584 --> 00:53:53,624 Speaker 3: an insight into how oppressive beauty standards can be and 1074 00:53:53,624 --> 00:53:57,224 Speaker 3: how they steal our happiness and the freedom that can 1075 00:53:57,264 --> 00:54:01,904 Speaker 3: come from challenging them in our own small ways. The 1076 00:54:01,944 --> 00:54:05,384 Speaker 3: Butterfly Foundation is a great support service for anyone who 1077 00:54:05,424 --> 00:54:09,304 Speaker 3: struggles with disordered eating or body image issues. There's a 1078 00:54:09,344 --> 00:54:12,984 Speaker 3: link to them and other support services in our show notes. 1079 00:54:13,664 --> 00:54:17,504 Speaker 3: And if there's anybody who you think might get something 1080 00:54:17,984 --> 00:54:19,904 Speaker 3: out of this episode, I know there's a lot of 1081 00:54:20,304 --> 00:54:23,944 Speaker 3: people in my life who will please share it with them. 1082 00:54:24,064 --> 00:54:26,304 Speaker 3: And if you want to recommend someone for the show, 1083 00:54:26,424 --> 00:54:28,824 Speaker 3: you can always get in touch with me directly. I 1084 00:54:28,864 --> 00:54:32,984 Speaker 3: get the best suggestions from our listeners. You can message 1085 00:54:32,984 --> 00:54:36,624 Speaker 3: me on Instagram and If you like the show, leave 1086 00:54:36,704 --> 00:54:38,944 Speaker 3: us a review. We always love your feedback and it 1087 00:54:39,024 --> 00:54:42,904 Speaker 3: helps people to find us. The executive producer of But 1088 00:54:42,944 --> 00:54:45,864 Speaker 3: Are You Happy is Nama Brown and the producer is 1089 00:54:45,944 --> 00:54:50,304 Speaker 3: Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. I'm your host, 1090 00:54:50,424 --> 00:54:52,504 Speaker 3: Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week.