WEBVTT - How A Broken Law Sent Kathleen Folbigg To Prison 0:00:06.552 --> 0:00:10.072 True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 0:00:10.152 --> 0:00:15.392 waters that this podcast was recorded on fifty six minutes. 0:00:16.072 --> 0:00:17.752 That's how long it took for a woman who was 0:00:17.792 --> 0:00:20.991 once known as Australia's worst female serial killer to be 0:00:21.112 --> 0:00:25.672 released from prison after twenty years. Kathleen Felby went from 0:00:25.832 --> 0:00:28.992 one of the worst types of criminals, one even fellow 0:00:29.112 --> 0:00:32.391 inmates can't stand, one who would take the life of 0:00:32.432 --> 0:00:35.752 a child, to fifty six minutes later being a free 0:00:35.752 --> 0:00:39.232 woman cleared of the deaths of her four babies Caleb, Patrick, 0:00:39.312 --> 0:00:42.632 Sarah and Laura between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three. 0:00:43.632 --> 0:00:45.751 I hope and pray that one day I would be 0:00:45.791 --> 0:00:49.351 able to stand here with my name cleared. For almost 0:00:49.391 --> 0:00:52.992 a quarter of a century, I faced disbeliefment, hostility, I 0:00:53.071 --> 0:00:55.951 suffered abuse in all what's formed. My children are here 0:00:55.992 --> 0:00:58.511 with me today and they will be close to my 0:00:58.552 --> 0:01:01.192 heart for the rest of my life. The system preferred 0:01:01.232 --> 0:01:05.592 to blame me rather than accept that sometimes children can 0:01:05.712 --> 0:01:09.072 and do die suddenly, unexpectedly, at heartbreakingly. 0:01:10.631 --> 0:01:14.392 Kathleen Folbig could actually be the focus of two completely 0:01:14.432 --> 0:01:18.432 separate episodes of True Crime Conversations. One would focus on 0:01:18.472 --> 0:01:21.351 her childhood, marred by the murder of her mother at 0:01:21.352 --> 0:01:24.312 the hands of her violent father, a man with known 0:01:24.352 --> 0:01:28.271 criminal ties who reportedly stood over her mother's body in 0:01:28.312 --> 0:01:30.472 the street and told the neighbor that he just had 0:01:30.512 --> 0:01:33.192 to do it after she'd left him with little Kathleen. 0:01:34.112 --> 0:01:36.032 Or maybe we'll look into the aunt and uncle who 0:01:36.032 --> 0:01:38.271 would take her in only to hand her over to 0:01:38.312 --> 0:01:41.711 the state, Or the foster family who eventually raised her, 0:01:42.152 --> 0:01:44.872 only for her foster mother to end up shunning her 0:01:44.952 --> 0:01:49.392 when her new grandson arrived in the world. Despite all 0:01:49.472 --> 0:01:52.472 that hardship, a young Kathleen still managed to make a 0:01:52.512 --> 0:01:57.072 life for herself. That resilient young woman made incredible friends, 0:01:57.152 --> 0:01:59.912 friends who had become invaluable to her in the fight 0:01:59.952 --> 0:02:03.232 that she would face later. She met and married her husband, 0:02:03.272 --> 0:02:06.912 Craig Folbig, got a job, and then started a family, 0:02:07.312 --> 0:02:10.152 a decision that would alter the course of her life 0:02:10.152 --> 0:02:14.632 once again and again lead her to tragedy, heartbreak, and 0:02:14.672 --> 0:02:19.272 a criminal conviction that should never have been. Little Caleb's 0:02:19.312 --> 0:02:21.992 death in nineteen eighty nine at aged just nineteen days 0:02:22.272 --> 0:02:25.872 was attributed to Syd's sudden infant death syndrome, as was 0:02:25.912 --> 0:02:28.752 his sister Sarah who died in nineteen ninety three, aged 0:02:28.792 --> 0:02:32.632 ten months. Both children had issues with their respiratory systems, 0:02:32.792 --> 0:02:36.592 conditions like sleep apnea. Patrick, who died in nineteen ninety 0:02:36.672 --> 0:02:40.632 aged eight months, suffered from seizures, which doctors say contributed 0:02:40.672 --> 0:02:43.712 to his death in nineteen ninety but by the time 0:02:43.832 --> 0:02:47.072 Little Laura, who lived longer than any of the Folby children, 0:02:47.152 --> 0:02:49.792 making it to eighteen months and twenty two days, was 0:02:49.832 --> 0:02:54.632 pronounced dead. Police were starting to get suspicious when a 0:02:54.632 --> 0:02:56.832 call came in from detectives in the New South Wales 0:02:56.872 --> 0:03:00.072 regional town of Singleton, where Kathleen and her husband then lived. 0:03:00.512 --> 0:03:04.352 Professor John Hilton, the pathologist who'd performed the autopsy on 0:03:04.392 --> 0:03:07.312 little Sarah a few years before, was told just the 0:03:07.432 --> 0:03:12.192 name Phoebic and the number four. He responded with, one 0:03:12.272 --> 0:03:17.632 is tragic, two is unusual, three is suspicious, or he said, 0:03:18.512 --> 0:03:23.472 is fucking murder. Now those words weren't completely Hilton's alone. 0:03:23.632 --> 0:03:27.072 The saying had actually come from another academic, one whose 0:03:27.152 --> 0:03:31.352 theory had condemned many more women than just Kathleen Folbig. 0:03:37.152 --> 0:03:40.432 I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a 0:03:40.472 --> 0:03:44.152 podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 0:03:44.192 --> 0:03:47.152 the people who know the most about them. In the 0:03:47.232 --> 0:03:51.312 nineteen nineties, Australian parents were being educated on something that 0:03:51.392 --> 0:03:54.192 had been classified in the late seventies but that many 0:03:54.232 --> 0:03:55.512 were not really aware of. 0:03:55.912 --> 0:03:58.872 There are three simple ways you can help produce the 0:03:58.952 --> 0:04:03.352 risk of sudden infant death syndrome. One, put your baby 0:04:03.392 --> 0:04:07.832 on the back to sleep. Two make sure your baby's 0:04:07.832 --> 0:04:13.152 head remains uncovered during sleep, and three always keep your 0:04:13.152 --> 0:04:14.952 baby in a smoke free environment. 0:04:15.752 --> 0:04:19.311 Sudden infant death syndrome, or SIDS, as it's known, was 0:04:19.432 --> 0:04:22.992 a terrifying condition that it impacted parents around the world. 0:04:23.472 --> 0:04:25.832 One day, your baby is alive and happy, and then 0:04:26.152 --> 0:04:28.512 you wake the next to find their lifeless body in 0:04:28.552 --> 0:04:30.752 their cot where you'd lovingly place them to sleep the 0:04:30.832 --> 0:04:35.632 night before. Their short lives snuffed out they simply stop breathing. 0:04:36.512 --> 0:04:39.632 In the United States, SIDS is the leading cause of 0:04:39.672 --> 0:04:42.512 death for infants age between one month and one year, 0:04:42.992 --> 0:04:44.992 and in fact, it takes the lives of around three 0:04:45.152 --> 0:04:47.752 hundred babies a year in the UK and one hundred 0:04:47.792 --> 0:04:50.432 babies a year here in Australia. While this sounds like 0:04:50.592 --> 0:04:54.232 a terrible amount of little lives, lost before the education 0:04:54.392 --> 0:04:57.872 programs used to be so much worse. It was in 0:04:57.912 --> 0:05:01.472 the nineteen eighties that Roy Meadow stepped into this tragic conversation. 0:05:01.912 --> 0:05:04.552 He in nineteen eighty nine wrote a formula in his 0:05:04.592 --> 0:05:07.712 book The ABC of Child Abuse. That formula would see 0:05:07.752 --> 0:05:12.312 women like Kathleen Folbig treated as criminals rather than victims. 0:05:13.312 --> 0:05:16.672 It stated that one sudden infant death is a tragedy, 0:05:16.872 --> 0:05:20.872 two is suspicious, and three, according to his formula, is 0:05:21.072 --> 0:05:25.871 murder until proved otherwise. Quentin McDermott is an award winning 0:05:25.872 --> 0:05:29.312 investigative journalist and the author of Meadow's Law, The True 0:05:29.352 --> 0:05:33.032 Story of Kathleen Folbig and the Science that set Her Free. 0:05:33.112 --> 0:05:37.312 He has spent years investigating Kathleen Folbig's case, spending time 0:05:37.352 --> 0:05:40.192 with her and her crew of supporters who have worked 0:05:40.392 --> 0:05:43.231 tirelessly for her freedom. He sat down with us to 0:05:43.272 --> 0:05:46.872 explain just how Meadow's Law put women like Kathleen in 0:05:46.872 --> 0:05:50.952 a place where they could not possibly defend themselves, forcing them, 0:05:51.152 --> 0:05:54.111 while suffering through the worst thing that could ever happen 0:05:54.152 --> 0:05:58.351 to a mother, to fight for their lives. I'd like 0:05:58.432 --> 0:06:01.712 to kick it off with you, maybe gives an understanding 0:06:01.792 --> 0:06:06.232 of how Meadow came to his law and what dares 0:06:06.592 --> 0:06:08.872 he was basing his law off of, and how that 0:06:09.032 --> 0:06:12.072 was received by the sort of wider medical and legal 0:06:12.112 --> 0:06:15.112 communities when it started to infiltrate into those spaces. 0:06:15.472 --> 0:06:18.072 Roy Meadow came up with his theory, which, as you say, 0:06:18.232 --> 0:06:21.272 was you know, one death is a tragedy, two is suspicious, 0:06:21.272 --> 0:06:25.112 and three is homicide. Unlet's proven otherwise, following his own 0:06:25.232 --> 0:06:29.592 experience as a British pediatrician. Now he wasn't the only 0:06:29.592 --> 0:06:31.792 person to come up with this theory. There were two 0:06:31.872 --> 0:06:35.512 medical examiners in the United States who at the same 0:06:35.592 --> 0:06:39.672 time came up with a very similar theory. And what 0:06:40.192 --> 0:06:43.351 stood out for me in looking at this but a 0:06:43.392 --> 0:06:45.592 couple of things. First of all, that this was based, 0:06:45.632 --> 0:06:48.072 I think, in Roy Meadow's cases, was based simply on 0:06:48.152 --> 0:06:52.632 his practical and clinical experience as a pediatrician, but not 0:06:52.672 --> 0:06:58.392 on any kind of justified statistical analysis of the cases 0:06:58.392 --> 0:07:02.632 of infants who died suddenly and unexpectedly in families. And 0:07:03.032 --> 0:07:04.752 the second thing that stood out for me was that 0:07:04.792 --> 0:07:07.512 in the case of the medical examiner in the United States, 0:07:08.272 --> 0:07:12.592 their inclination was to blame the mothers rather than the father's. 0:07:12.872 --> 0:07:17.392 So one of these medical examiners wrote to a pediatric 0:07:18.072 --> 0:07:22.392 learned publication saying exactly that that in almost all of 0:07:22.432 --> 0:07:26.192 the cases where there'd been sudden unexpected deaths which were homicides, 0:07:26.632 --> 0:07:29.232 it was the mother who had carried out the killing. 0:07:29.992 --> 0:07:33.632 And so that of itself kind of set a framework, 0:07:33.672 --> 0:07:37.472 if you like, which suggested that in any case where 0:07:37.512 --> 0:07:41.272 there had been three or more sudden unexpected deaths of 0:07:41.312 --> 0:07:44.752 infants in a family, not only was that homicide, but 0:07:44.792 --> 0:07:46.832 almost certainly it was the mother who had carried out 0:07:46.832 --> 0:07:47.552 the homicide. 0:07:48.352 --> 0:07:52.352 When you consider Kathleen Folbig's case, why do you think 0:07:52.352 --> 0:07:55.352 suspicion then only fell on them after the death of 0:07:55.392 --> 0:07:57.552 their fourth child? Because if we look at Meadow's law, 0:07:57.952 --> 0:08:00.472 as you've suggested, they should, after the third death be 0:08:00.592 --> 0:08:05.912 really considered a homicide case. So why did it have 0:08:05.992 --> 0:08:08.312 to be four children's deaths before they looked at the 0:08:08.312 --> 0:08:11.312 phobies in that light rather than just as them suffering 0:08:11.632 --> 0:08:12.952 just immeasurable tragedy. 0:08:13.592 --> 0:08:16.032 Look, I think that's a fantastic question as well, and 0:08:16.032 --> 0:08:17.592 in fact, no one else has ever asked me that. 0:08:17.992 --> 0:08:21.192 But I'll tell you what happened in her case was 0:08:21.192 --> 0:08:24.592 that in each of the first three cases where the 0:08:24.672 --> 0:08:29.872 children tragically died, there was no suspicion raised purely and simply, 0:08:29.912 --> 0:08:33.911 I think, because in terms of the circumstances surrounding each death, 0:08:34.192 --> 0:08:37.431 the doctors and the police found nothing that was suspicious. Now, 0:08:37.472 --> 0:08:42.472 following the death of her third child, Sarah, two things 0:08:42.472 --> 0:08:45.552 happened of note. First of all, as a kind of routine, 0:08:45.592 --> 0:08:48.712 if you like, the police came to their home on 0:08:48.792 --> 0:08:51.912 the night that Sarah died, and they carried out a 0:08:51.912 --> 0:08:55.112 pretty farer kind of look at their place, and you know, 0:08:55.472 --> 0:08:57.952 I think really just as a matter of kind of 0:08:58.032 --> 0:09:00.552 routine in order to just double check that there was 0:09:00.632 --> 0:09:03.832 kind of nothing suspicious, and they didn't believe that there 0:09:03.952 --> 0:09:06.872 was anything suspicious. This is the police. And the second 0:09:06.912 --> 0:09:10.792 thing that happened with Sarah's death is that her post mortem, 0:09:10.872 --> 0:09:15.072 her autopsy, was carried out by a very eminent forensic 0:09:15.112 --> 0:09:19.312 pathologist called John Hilton, and he examined the body, he 0:09:19.392 --> 0:09:21.992 carried out the autopsy, and he came to the conclusion 0:09:22.632 --> 0:09:26.511 that she had died from Sid's sudden infant death syndrome 0:09:26.992 --> 0:09:30.912 and he couldn't see anything suspicious in her death. And 0:09:30.952 --> 0:09:34.192 so at that point you know, the death was kind 0:09:34.192 --> 0:09:39.312 of squared away as being SIDS and Caleb had been ascribed. 0:09:39.432 --> 0:09:42.952 Caleb's death had been ascribed to SIDS. Caleb was their firstborn. 0:09:43.752 --> 0:09:47.952 And so the suspicion was raised in Laura's case mainly 0:09:48.392 --> 0:09:52.832 because a police officer came to John Hilton and said, 0:09:53.192 --> 0:09:56.072 this is the fourth death in the family. And I 0:09:56.072 --> 0:09:58.312 think that kind of tipped him over the edge if 0:09:58.352 --> 0:10:02.872 you like to exclaiming, well, I mean, he's Scottish, I 0:10:02.872 --> 0:10:04.792 can't do a Scottish accent, but he said, you know, 0:10:04.912 --> 0:10:09.752 for is fucking murder. And I think the problem then 0:10:10.472 --> 0:10:14.752 was that John Hilton, who was an extremely eminent forensic 0:10:14.752 --> 0:10:17.152 pathologist and who came to believe that she was innocent, 0:10:17.272 --> 0:10:20.872 by the way, but he was working in a context 0:10:21.152 --> 0:10:24.912 where Meadow's Law was kind of in the ascendant if 0:10:24.952 --> 0:10:29.392 you like. Meadow's Law was accepted I think among many, 0:10:29.472 --> 0:10:33.432 if not all, of the forensic pathologists working at that time, 0:10:34.672 --> 0:10:37.272 and so he believed it was murder. They had a 0:10:37.312 --> 0:10:40.512 meeting and essentially, you know, the alarm was raised because 0:10:40.552 --> 0:10:43.792 it seemed to be suspicious. Now, what then happened was 0:10:43.832 --> 0:10:47.912 that the autopsy on Laura was carried out by another 0:10:47.992 --> 0:10:52.712 forensic pathologist called doctor Alan Carla, who actually found an 0:10:52.752 --> 0:10:57.912 active potential reason for her death, which was a heart 0:10:57.952 --> 0:11:03.192 condition called myocarditis, But because the whole context was tainted 0:11:04.032 --> 0:11:06.752 by Meadow's law, and because they had been three other 0:11:06.792 --> 0:11:10.552 deaths in the family, doctor Carla declared that in his view, 0:11:10.992 --> 0:11:14.872 the cause of death was undetermined, and then the police 0:11:14.952 --> 0:11:17.112 kind of at that point set off on their investigation. 0:11:17.312 --> 0:11:20.472 Well, can we talk about that investigation, because in this 0:11:20.552 --> 0:11:23.832 case it does feel very extreme when you really look 0:11:23.872 --> 0:11:26.912 at how they conducted it. They tapped the Polvig's phone, 0:11:27.072 --> 0:11:31.192 they bugged their home, they questioned them, sometimes without lawyers, 0:11:31.192 --> 0:11:34.512 sometimes for eight hours at a time, Like it seemed 0:11:34.512 --> 0:11:38.472 like a very extreme investigation in this case. Would that 0:11:38.552 --> 0:11:40.672 have been unusual for a case like this or was 0:11:40.712 --> 0:11:42.631 that standard police procedure at the time. 0:11:42.992 --> 0:11:46.672 It's very interesting you say that, Claire. Can I just 0:11:46.712 --> 0:11:49.712 take a step back. In the United States, there had 0:11:49.752 --> 0:11:53.632 been the case of a woman called Wanitahyde whose children 0:11:53.672 --> 0:11:57.192 had died. Four of them had died apparently from natural causes, 0:11:57.272 --> 0:12:00.631 and then a medical examiner and the police decided that 0:12:00.752 --> 0:12:04.992 they thought it was suspicious and they brought her in 0:12:05.512 --> 0:12:07.632 we need to hide under the guise of you know, 0:12:07.712 --> 0:12:10.872 can you please help us just to explain, you know, 0:12:10.912 --> 0:12:14.432 the circumstances surrounding the deaths of your children. And it 0:12:14.512 --> 0:12:17.392 turned into an extremely aggressive interview, at the end of 0:12:17.432 --> 0:12:20.912 which she confessed to killing the children, but she later 0:12:21.472 --> 0:12:25.552 retracted her confession because it had been extracted from her 0:12:25.632 --> 0:12:29.992 frankly under duress. Now in Kathleen Folbek's case, something similar happened. 0:12:30.552 --> 0:12:33.912 So Bernie Ryan, the detective who was heading the investigation, 0:12:34.072 --> 0:12:37.912 invited Kathy to come in and be interviewed. And as 0:12:37.912 --> 0:12:43.631 you say, no lawyer was brought in to help represent her. 0:12:43.832 --> 0:12:47.112 She was on her own completely, Craig, her husband wasn't 0:12:47.112 --> 0:12:51.192 even in the room with her, and she was interrogated 0:12:51.272 --> 0:12:54.992 for you know, well, she spent the whole day basically 0:12:55.032 --> 0:12:57.391 being interrogated. So for kind of seven or eight hours 0:12:57.632 --> 0:13:00.592 she was interrogated. And it was interesting how the interview 0:13:00.632 --> 0:13:03.592 was carried out by Bernie Ryan, because he started off 0:13:03.712 --> 0:13:06.632 just you know, in a neutral way, asking her to 0:13:06.672 --> 0:13:09.152 tell her story and the story of her children, and 0:13:09.192 --> 0:13:12.512 it was only after about seven hours that he suddenly 0:13:12.592 --> 0:13:17.112 hit her with this kind of chilling series of questions, 0:13:17.152 --> 0:13:20.472 you know, did you kill Caleb, did you kill Patrick? 0:13:20.792 --> 0:13:22.952 Did you kill Sarah? Did you kill Lauren? And he 0:13:22.992 --> 0:13:26.152 repeated this. He asked her this twice, and of course 0:13:26.192 --> 0:13:29.672 at that point she realized that she was actually the 0:13:29.752 --> 0:13:32.631 kind of prime suspect in this investigation. 0:13:33.032 --> 0:13:35.592 Well, can you tell me about the conversation that police 0:13:35.632 --> 0:13:39.752 recorded between Craig and Kathy That would sound quite condemning 0:13:39.792 --> 0:13:40.631 at the time. 0:13:40.872 --> 0:13:46.312 The investigation was intensely intrusive on Kathleen and indeed on 0:13:46.792 --> 0:13:50.552 Craig her husband. As you say, they bugged their home. 0:13:51.392 --> 0:13:53.992 And what I find particularly interesting, and I revealed this 0:13:54.312 --> 0:13:57.072 in my book for the first time, is that the 0:13:57.352 --> 0:14:01.712 only time that either parent got even close to a 0:14:01.752 --> 0:14:05.792 confession of having harmed their children was when they secretly 0:14:05.872 --> 0:14:09.832 recorded conversation where Craig came down one morning and he 0:14:09.872 --> 0:14:12.872 said to Kathy, he said, all night I've been thinking 0:14:13.312 --> 0:14:18.151 maybe I killed the kids. Now you know that must 0:14:18.152 --> 0:14:21.192 have been an absolutely chilling moment, both for Kathy and 0:14:21.312 --> 0:14:24.752 indeed for the police who the detectives who were listening in. 0:14:24.792 --> 0:14:28.232 But what I think is very striking about this is 0:14:28.232 --> 0:14:32.592 that this secretly recorded conversation was one where not only 0:14:32.632 --> 0:14:35.752 did he say that I've been thinking maybe I killed 0:14:35.752 --> 0:14:38.752 the kids. He then went into a great detail about 0:14:38.792 --> 0:14:41.152 exactly how he could have killed them and what his 0:14:41.232 --> 0:14:46.592 motive would have been. But this entire conversation, almost all 0:14:46.592 --> 0:14:50.472 of it was suppressed at her trial, and then when eventually, 0:14:50.872 --> 0:14:53.072 years and years later, in twenty nineteen, there was a 0:14:53.152 --> 0:14:57.312 judicial inquiry into her case, it was completely suppressed at 0:14:57.352 --> 0:15:00.792 that inquiry, and it was only much later on at 0:15:00.792 --> 0:15:04.992 the second inquiry, just before she was finally pardoned and released, 0:15:05.712 --> 0:15:07.872 that it was actually put on the recorder and it 0:15:07.912 --> 0:15:10.432 was kind of allowed to be seen. And I think 0:15:10.432 --> 0:15:13.752 that's very striking, and I think it's an extraordinary example 0:15:13.912 --> 0:15:18.152 of the underlying misogyny, if you like, in the investigation 0:15:18.392 --> 0:15:20.792 and in the prosecution of Kathleen Folbeck. 0:15:21.392 --> 0:15:25.672 Well, you mentioned the detective who was leading this investigation. 0:15:26.312 --> 0:15:32.112 He would not consider Craig a suspect really at any stage, 0:15:32.192 --> 0:15:34.632 it seemed during this process, and in fact, he would 0:15:34.632 --> 0:15:37.272 go and meet with Craig, sometimes at his place of work, 0:15:37.352 --> 0:15:39.672 like out of the blue, to try and convince him 0:15:39.712 --> 0:15:42.792 that mothers do kill their children like that? Is that 0:15:43.432 --> 0:15:46.312 how investigations unfold. I mean, I'm not a police officer. 0:15:46.352 --> 0:15:48.992 I don't understand how these work, but that feels like 0:15:49.632 --> 0:15:52.632 the detective is trying to lead Craig towards a conclusion. 0:15:54.552 --> 0:15:58.072 I think you're absolutely right, Claire, and speaking personally, I 0:15:58.072 --> 0:16:02.272 think it's entirely improper for the lead detective in a 0:16:02.312 --> 0:16:06.152 homicide or potential homicide investigation to be, you know, which 0:16:06.352 --> 0:16:10.992 involves both parents, who obviously are both key witnesses, to 0:16:11.072 --> 0:16:14.592 go to one parent and start talking to them. And indeed, 0:16:14.832 --> 0:16:19.112 you know, Craig Folbig in the trial revealed that Bernie 0:16:19.152 --> 0:16:21.712 Ryan had come to him and said, you know, it's 0:16:21.752 --> 0:16:25.232 not just women in housing commissions, you know. In other words, 0:16:25.272 --> 0:16:27.832 he was suggesting, you know, kind of poverty stricken women 0:16:27.872 --> 0:16:30.512 on drugs or whatever who kill their children. It can 0:16:30.552 --> 0:16:33.592 be kind of middle class women as well. So Bernie 0:16:33.632 --> 0:16:36.312 Ryan had obviously been talking to him and kind of 0:16:36.312 --> 0:16:39.032 getting into his ear. And then the other highly significant 0:16:39.032 --> 0:16:42.432 thing is that in April two thousand and one, when 0:16:42.472 --> 0:16:48.592 the investigation was still ongoing, they actually arrested Craig Folbig 0:16:49.072 --> 0:16:54.792 under suspicion of impeding or obstructing the investigation. Now, the 0:16:54.832 --> 0:16:58.272 effect of that must have been, and indeed was to 0:16:58.272 --> 0:17:02.032 put pressure on Craig Folbig to essentially say what the 0:17:02.072 --> 0:17:05.911 police wanted him to say. And it's very interesting because 0:17:06.591 --> 0:17:08.792 in this interview that followed that they brought him in, 0:17:08.871 --> 0:17:11.512 they said, you know, were arresting you on suspicion of 0:17:12.591 --> 0:17:14.831 impeding the investigation. They then interviewed him. He did a 0:17:14.911 --> 0:17:17.311 long interview in which essentially he said all the things 0:17:17.311 --> 0:17:19.871 that the police wanted him to say, and he agreed 0:17:19.911 --> 0:17:23.871 to be a witness against Kathy at her trial. I 0:17:23.952 --> 0:17:29.752 think it's incontrovertible that pressure was put on Craig Folbig, 0:17:30.151 --> 0:17:34.471 Kathy's husband, to you know, to give evidence against her, 0:17:34.512 --> 0:17:36.951 and that indeed is exactly what happened at her trial. 0:17:37.192 --> 0:17:40.432 Well, part of that pressure that Craig felt did lead 0:17:40.512 --> 0:17:43.871 him to give police some evidence which would later prove 0:17:43.952 --> 0:17:47.271 to be incredibly damning for Kathleen at her trial, and 0:17:47.272 --> 0:17:50.792 that was her diaries. But can you explain to us 0:17:50.871 --> 0:17:55.431 how those diaries were interpreted during the initial trial, because 0:17:55.431 --> 0:17:59.631 they had like a lineup of experts to discuss, which 0:17:59.712 --> 0:18:03.152 was never really refuted by the defense with their own 0:18:03.192 --> 0:18:06.792 experts at the time. But how did they interpret Athleen's 0:18:06.831 --> 0:18:09.631 diary entries to prove to the jury that she had 0:18:09.712 --> 0:18:10.592 murdered her children. 0:18:11.272 --> 0:18:16.431 Okay, Well, you're getting into a really interesting area here, Claire, 0:18:16.472 --> 0:18:20.552 because what happened at her trial was that the diaries, 0:18:20.911 --> 0:18:25.432 there was something like forty different extracts from her diaries 0:18:26.232 --> 0:18:28.671 which were kind of read out in open court to 0:18:28.792 --> 0:18:32.272 the jury, okay, And what happened was that the senior 0:18:32.311 --> 0:18:37.592 Crown prosecutor, Mark Tadeski interpreted these entries in her diaries 0:18:37.591 --> 0:18:42.232 as being virtual admissions to having killed her children. And indeed, 0:18:42.591 --> 0:18:44.912 with one or two of these entries, he actually kind 0:18:44.911 --> 0:18:48.191 of put words into her mouth. He said, you know 0:18:48.952 --> 0:18:51.591 about one entry, what could this possibly mean other than 0:18:52.111 --> 0:18:55.191 you know, I killed the children or I killed this child. 0:18:56.032 --> 0:19:00.311 So that is what he did. However, the main experts 0:19:00.351 --> 0:19:04.031 who appeared at the trial were the medical experts, and 0:19:04.071 --> 0:19:07.831 what the medical experts were saying was that in their experience, 0:19:08.472 --> 0:19:11.311 they had never come across a family where three or 0:19:11.351 --> 0:19:14.712 more children had died from natural causes. So they were 0:19:14.911 --> 0:19:18.952 essentially parroting Meadows law. Okay in terms of their own experience. 0:19:19.151 --> 0:19:21.391 Was that true? Because you've already mentioned there was another 0:19:21.431 --> 0:19:25.111 case where four children had died, So they are testifying 0:19:25.151 --> 0:19:27.471 that there's just been no other case of this happening 0:19:27.512 --> 0:19:28.871 that then is not true. 0:19:28.911 --> 0:19:30.951 Well, in fairness to the medical experts, I think what 0:19:30.992 --> 0:19:33.351 they were doing was they were saying, you know, in 0:19:33.391 --> 0:19:36.431 our experience, in my experience, I've never come across a 0:19:36.472 --> 0:19:39.552 case like that. But in fact, you're absolutely right. And 0:19:39.591 --> 0:19:42.631 this was one of the main reasons that the first 0:19:42.752 --> 0:19:45.591 judicial inquiry was called was because it was later shown 0:19:45.631 --> 0:19:48.871 to be the case that yes, indeed, of course there 0:19:48.871 --> 0:19:51.831 had been other families where multiple children had died from 0:19:51.911 --> 0:19:54.871 natural causes, so the jury was completely misled on that point. 0:19:55.391 --> 0:19:57.591 But the point I want to make about the diaries 0:19:57.752 --> 0:20:02.472 is this that although there were multiple medical experts appearing 0:20:02.591 --> 0:20:08.672 at the trial, there were no psychological or psychiatric experts 0:20:08.752 --> 0:20:13.032 who appeared at the trial to interpret the diaries. It 0:20:13.071 --> 0:20:18.391 was only after she had been convicted that psychiatrists submitted 0:20:18.431 --> 0:20:21.511 reports about her mental state and whether or not she 0:20:21.591 --> 0:20:25.951 was psychotic. And incidentally, none of the psychiatrists suggested that 0:20:26.032 --> 0:20:29.111 she had a psychosis which would have impelled her to 0:20:29.232 --> 0:20:32.351 kill any of her children. So the problem for Kathe 0:20:32.792 --> 0:20:35.591 and her defense was that there was no one standing 0:20:35.671 --> 0:20:37.871 up at her trial to say, well, hang on, you know, 0:20:37.911 --> 0:20:41.831 the senior Crown prosecutor is saying that these diary entries 0:20:41.831 --> 0:20:44.792 are virtual admissions of guilt. Well, actually there's an alternative explanation, 0:20:44.831 --> 0:20:48.231 and here it is really they were reliant on the 0:20:48.272 --> 0:20:53.031 defense and Peter Tzara, the senior public defender who appeared 0:20:53.071 --> 0:20:56.391 on her behalf, giving an alternative explanation, but without the 0:20:56.391 --> 0:20:59.192 benefit of being able to cross examine experts who might 0:20:59.192 --> 0:20:59.992 have backed that up. 0:21:00.591 --> 0:21:05.552 For people who weren't aware of Kathleen Folbigg's trial when 0:21:05.552 --> 0:21:09.191 at first done FA in the early two thousands, what 0:21:09.391 --> 0:21:13.191 was the media coverage like then, because we know that 0:21:13.272 --> 0:21:18.071 they have the ability to swagh public opinion. What picture 0:21:18.071 --> 0:21:20.032 were they painting of Kathleen Folbig. 0:21:20.431 --> 0:21:24.392 Well, it was a brutal picture essentially. Now, I think 0:21:24.431 --> 0:21:26.671 it's fair to say that as the trial went on, 0:21:26.792 --> 0:21:30.952 of course, court reporters were doing what court reporters always 0:21:30.952 --> 0:21:34.631 do and do professionally, which is to report the proceedings 0:21:34.671 --> 0:21:38.552 in court. But as the trial progressed, it was becoming 0:21:38.871 --> 0:21:43.272 clearer and clearer that the prosecution was presenting evidence which 0:21:43.272 --> 0:21:45.471 on the face of it looked very damning, particularly in 0:21:45.512 --> 0:21:48.311 relation to the diaries and the medical experts, and also 0:21:48.351 --> 0:21:52.071 in relation to the evidence that was given by Craig Folbeg, 0:21:52.232 --> 0:21:56.672 who got up in the witness box and exaggerated frankly 0:21:57.232 --> 0:22:00.712 various insignificant incidents which had happened at home, as if 0:22:00.752 --> 0:22:05.191 to suggest that his wife was actually a murderous Okay, now, 0:22:05.351 --> 0:22:09.831 it's very interesting. Cathy herself was acutely aware of how 0:22:09.992 --> 0:22:12.912 all of this might appear in the media and might 0:22:12.952 --> 0:22:16.272 appear to the public. And I include in the book 0:22:16.472 --> 0:22:19.512 this really revealing story. I think of how one day 0:22:20.111 --> 0:22:22.512 she came out of court, she was walking along the road. 0:22:23.472 --> 0:22:26.511 She spoke on the phone to one of her very 0:22:26.512 --> 0:22:31.032 best friends, Megan, and she said to Megan, I'm trying 0:22:31.032 --> 0:22:35.192 not to laugh. And Meghan said, well, why is that. 0:22:35.431 --> 0:22:37.992 You know, why what's happened? And she said, well, there's 0:22:38.032 --> 0:22:41.712 a cameraman in front of me who's kind of filming 0:22:41.712 --> 0:22:43.512 me and backing away, and he's just backed into a 0:22:43.552 --> 0:22:48.591 garbage bin. And she said, but I can't laugh because 0:22:48.591 --> 0:22:51.552 of how it'll be portrayed. And I think that is 0:22:51.591 --> 0:22:55.351 both poignant and extremely revealing. What it showed was that 0:22:55.431 --> 0:23:00.232 she was acutely aware that if she was photographed laughing 0:23:00.351 --> 0:23:04.391 outside court, that would be interpreted by the media as 0:23:04.911 --> 0:23:08.232 her being a callous bitch and a murderers. But of course, 0:23:08.272 --> 0:23:10.911 in the event what happened, it was a catch twenty 0:23:10.952 --> 0:23:14.752 two because by holding her emotions in and by not 0:23:15.431 --> 0:23:19.071 showing her emotions in public, you know, she was portrayed 0:23:19.111 --> 0:23:21.911 as a kind of cold, unfeeling bitch, you know. And 0:23:21.952 --> 0:23:24.792 then after the trial, after she was convicted, I mean, 0:23:24.792 --> 0:23:27.231 the media just descended on her like a kind of 0:23:27.272 --> 0:23:31.191 torrent really, And there had been there was one diary 0:23:31.311 --> 0:23:35.071 entry which had been ruled inadmissible at her trial, but 0:23:35.111 --> 0:23:38.672 which the media was allowed to publish following her conviction, 0:23:38.792 --> 0:23:41.631 and that was the entry where she said, just a 0:23:41.631 --> 0:23:45.911 few words, obviously, I am my father's daughter. Now the 0:23:45.992 --> 0:23:49.591 media lect on this. It kind of permeated almost all 0:23:49.591 --> 0:23:51.991 of the coverage following her conviction because of course what 0:23:52.071 --> 0:23:56.231 she was doing there where she was referring to her father, 0:23:56.391 --> 0:24:00.952 her biological father, who had murdered her biological mother by 0:24:00.992 --> 0:24:04.951 stabbing her twenty four times in a street. Okay, Now, 0:24:04.952 --> 0:24:08.552 the media obviously interprets did this as her saying when 0:24:08.552 --> 0:24:10.792