1
00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

2
00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:15,392
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on fifty six minutes.

3
00:00:16,072 --> 00:00:17,752
Speaker 1: That's how long it took for a woman who was

4
00:00:17,792 --> 00:00:20,991
Speaker 1: once known as Australia's worst female serial killer to be

5
00:00:21,112 --> 00:00:25,672
Speaker 1: released from prison after twenty years. Kathleen Felby went from

6
00:00:25,832 --> 00:00:28,992
Speaker 1: one of the worst types of criminals, one even fellow

7
00:00:29,112 --> 00:00:32,391
Speaker 1: inmates can't stand, one who would take the life of

8
00:00:32,432 --> 00:00:35,752
Speaker 1: a child, to fifty six minutes later being a free

9
00:00:35,752 --> 00:00:39,232
Speaker 1: woman cleared of the deaths of her four babies Caleb, Patrick,

10
00:00:39,312 --> 00:00:42,632
Speaker 1: Sarah and Laura between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three.

11
00:00:43,632 --> 00:00:45,751
Speaker 2: I hope and pray that one day I would be

12
00:00:45,791 --> 00:00:49,351
Speaker 2: able to stand here with my name cleared. For almost

13
00:00:49,391 --> 00:00:52,992
Speaker 2: a quarter of a century, I faced disbeliefment, hostility, I

14
00:00:53,071 --> 00:00:55,951
Speaker 2: suffered abuse in all what's formed. My children are here

15
00:00:55,992 --> 00:00:58,511
Speaker 2: with me today and they will be close to my

16
00:00:58,552 --> 00:01:01,192
Speaker 2: heart for the rest of my life. The system preferred

17
00:01:01,232 --> 00:01:05,592
Speaker 2: to blame me rather than accept that sometimes children can

18
00:01:05,712 --> 00:01:09,072
Speaker 2: and do die suddenly, unexpectedly, at heartbreakingly.

19
00:01:10,631 --> 00:01:14,392
Speaker 1: Kathleen Folbig could actually be the focus of two completely

20
00:01:14,432 --> 00:01:18,432
Speaker 1: separate episodes of True Crime Conversations. One would focus on

21
00:01:18,472 --> 00:01:21,351
Speaker 1: her childhood, marred by the murder of her mother at

22
00:01:21,352 --> 00:01:24,312
Speaker 1: the hands of her violent father, a man with known

23
00:01:24,352 --> 00:01:28,271
Speaker 1: criminal ties who reportedly stood over her mother's body in

24
00:01:28,312 --> 00:01:30,472
Speaker 1: the street and told the neighbor that he just had

25
00:01:30,512 --> 00:01:33,192
Speaker 1: to do it after she'd left him with little Kathleen.

26
00:01:34,112 --> 00:01:36,032
Speaker 1: Or maybe we'll look into the aunt and uncle who

27
00:01:36,032 --> 00:01:38,271
Speaker 1: would take her in only to hand her over to

28
00:01:38,312 --> 00:01:41,711
Speaker 1: the state, Or the foster family who eventually raised her,

29
00:01:42,152 --> 00:01:44,872
Speaker 1: only for her foster mother to end up shunning her

30
00:01:44,952 --> 00:01:49,392
Speaker 1: when her new grandson arrived in the world. Despite all

31
00:01:49,472 --> 00:01:52,472
Speaker 1: that hardship, a young Kathleen still managed to make a

32
00:01:52,512 --> 00:01:57,072
Speaker 1: life for herself. That resilient young woman made incredible friends,

33
00:01:57,152 --> 00:01:59,912
Speaker 1: friends who had become invaluable to her in the fight

34
00:01:59,952 --> 00:02:03,232
Speaker 1: that she would face later. She met and married her husband,

35
00:02:03,272 --> 00:02:06,912
Speaker 1: Craig Folbig, got a job, and then started a family,

36
00:02:07,312 --> 00:02:10,152
Speaker 1: a decision that would alter the course of her life

37
00:02:10,152 --> 00:02:14,632
Speaker 1: once again and again lead her to tragedy, heartbreak, and

38
00:02:14,672 --> 00:02:19,272
Speaker 1: a criminal conviction that should never have been. Little Caleb's

39
00:02:19,312 --> 00:02:21,992
Speaker 1: death in nineteen eighty nine at aged just nineteen days

40
00:02:22,272 --> 00:02:25,872
Speaker 1: was attributed to Syd's sudden infant death syndrome, as was

41
00:02:25,912 --> 00:02:28,752
Speaker 1: his sister Sarah who died in nineteen ninety three, aged

42
00:02:28,792 --> 00:02:32,632
Speaker 1: ten months. Both children had issues with their respiratory systems,

43
00:02:32,792 --> 00:02:36,592
Speaker 1: conditions like sleep apnea. Patrick, who died in nineteen ninety

44
00:02:36,672 --> 00:02:40,632
Speaker 1: aged eight months, suffered from seizures, which doctors say contributed

45
00:02:40,672 --> 00:02:43,712
Speaker 1: to his death in nineteen ninety but by the time

46
00:02:43,832 --> 00:02:47,072
Speaker 1: Little Laura, who lived longer than any of the Folby children,

47
00:02:47,152 --> 00:02:49,792
Speaker 1: making it to eighteen months and twenty two days, was

48
00:02:49,832 --> 00:02:54,632
Speaker 1: pronounced dead. Police were starting to get suspicious when a

49
00:02:54,632 --> 00:02:56,832
Speaker 1: call came in from detectives in the New South Wales

50
00:02:56,872 --> 00:03:00,072
Speaker 1: regional town of Singleton, where Kathleen and her husband then lived.

51
00:03:00,512 --> 00:03:04,352
Speaker 1: Professor John Hilton, the pathologist who'd performed the autopsy on

52
00:03:04,392 --> 00:03:07,312
Speaker 1: little Sarah a few years before, was told just the

53
00:03:07,432 --> 00:03:12,192
Speaker 1: name Phoebic and the number four. He responded with, one

54
00:03:12,272 --> 00:03:17,632
Speaker 1: is tragic, two is unusual, three is suspicious, or he said,

55
00:03:18,512 --> 00:03:23,472
Speaker 1: is fucking murder. Now those words weren't completely Hilton's alone.

56
00:03:23,632 --> 00:03:27,072
Speaker 1: The saying had actually come from another academic, one whose

57
00:03:27,152 --> 00:03:31,352
Speaker 1: theory had condemned many more women than just Kathleen Folbig.

58
00:03:37,152 --> 00:03:40,432
Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a

59
00:03:40,472 --> 00:03:44,152
Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to

60
00:03:44,192 --> 00:03:47,152
Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. In the

61
00:03:47,232 --> 00:03:51,312
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, Australian parents were being educated on something that

62
00:03:51,392 --> 00:03:54,192
Speaker 1: had been classified in the late seventies but that many

63
00:03:54,232 --> 00:03:55,512
Speaker 1: were not really aware of.

64
00:03:55,912 --> 00:03:58,872
Speaker 3: There are three simple ways you can help produce the

65
00:03:58,952 --> 00:04:03,352
Speaker 3: risk of sudden infant death syndrome. One, put your baby

66
00:04:03,392 --> 00:04:07,832
Speaker 3: on the back to sleep. Two make sure your baby's

67
00:04:07,832 --> 00:04:13,152
Speaker 3: head remains uncovered during sleep, and three always keep your

68
00:04:13,152 --> 00:04:14,952
Speaker 3: baby in a smoke free environment.

69
00:04:15,752 --> 00:04:19,311
Speaker 1: Sudden infant death syndrome, or SIDS, as it's known, was

70
00:04:19,432 --> 00:04:22,992
Speaker 1: a terrifying condition that it impacted parents around the world.

71
00:04:23,472 --> 00:04:25,832
Speaker 1: One day, your baby is alive and happy, and then

72
00:04:26,152 --> 00:04:28,512
Speaker 1: you wake the next to find their lifeless body in

73
00:04:28,552 --> 00:04:30,752
Speaker 1: their cot where you'd lovingly place them to sleep the

74
00:04:30,832 --> 00:04:35,632
Speaker 1: night before. Their short lives snuffed out they simply stop breathing.

75
00:04:36,512 --> 00:04:39,632
Speaker 1: In the United States, SIDS is the leading cause of

76
00:04:39,672 --> 00:04:42,512
Speaker 1: death for infants age between one month and one year,

77
00:04:42,992 --> 00:04:44,992
Speaker 1: and in fact, it takes the lives of around three

78
00:04:45,152 --> 00:04:47,752
Speaker 1: hundred babies a year in the UK and one hundred

79
00:04:47,792 --> 00:04:50,432
Speaker 1: babies a year here in Australia. While this sounds like

80
00:04:50,592 --> 00:04:54,232
Speaker 1: a terrible amount of little lives, lost before the education

81
00:04:54,392 --> 00:04:57,872
Speaker 1: programs used to be so much worse. It was in

82
00:04:57,912 --> 00:05:01,472
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties that Roy Meadow stepped into this tragic conversation.

83
00:05:01,912 --> 00:05:04,552
Speaker 1: He in nineteen eighty nine wrote a formula in his

84
00:05:04,592 --> 00:05:07,712
Speaker 1: book The ABC of Child Abuse. That formula would see

85
00:05:07,752 --> 00:05:12,312
Speaker 1: women like Kathleen Folbig treated as criminals rather than victims.

86
00:05:13,312 --> 00:05:16,672
Speaker 1: It stated that one sudden infant death is a tragedy,

87
00:05:16,872 --> 00:05:20,872
Speaker 1: two is suspicious, and three, according to his formula, is

88
00:05:21,072 --> 00:05:25,871
Speaker 1: murder until proved otherwise. Quentin McDermott is an award winning

89
00:05:25,872 --> 00:05:29,312
Speaker 1: investigative journalist and the author of Meadow's Law, The True

90
00:05:29,352 --> 00:05:33,032
Speaker 1: Story of Kathleen Folbig and the Science that set Her Free.

91
00:05:33,112 --> 00:05:37,312
Speaker 1: He has spent years investigating Kathleen Folbig's case, spending time

92
00:05:37,352 --> 00:05:40,192
Speaker 1: with her and her crew of supporters who have worked

93
00:05:40,392 --> 00:05:43,231
Speaker 1: tirelessly for her freedom. He sat down with us to

94
00:05:43,272 --> 00:05:46,872
Speaker 1: explain just how Meadow's Law put women like Kathleen in

95
00:05:46,872 --> 00:05:50,952
Speaker 1: a place where they could not possibly defend themselves, forcing them,

96
00:05:51,152 --> 00:05:54,111
Speaker 1: while suffering through the worst thing that could ever happen

97
00:05:54,152 --> 00:05:58,351
Speaker 1: to a mother, to fight for their lives. I'd like

98
00:05:58,432 --> 00:06:01,712
Speaker 1: to kick it off with you, maybe gives an understanding

99
00:06:01,792 --> 00:06:06,232
Speaker 1: of how Meadow came to his law and what dares

100
00:06:06,592 --> 00:06:08,872
Speaker 1: he was basing his law off of, and how that

101
00:06:09,032 --> 00:06:12,072
Speaker 1: was received by the sort of wider medical and legal

102
00:06:12,112 --> 00:06:15,112
Speaker 1: communities when it started to infiltrate into those spaces.

103
00:06:15,472 --> 00:06:18,072
Speaker 4: Roy Meadow came up with his theory, which, as you say,

104
00:06:18,232 --> 00:06:21,272
Speaker 4: was you know, one death is a tragedy, two is suspicious,

105
00:06:21,272 --> 00:06:25,112
Speaker 4: and three is homicide. Unlet's proven otherwise, following his own

106
00:06:25,232 --> 00:06:29,592
Speaker 4: experience as a British pediatrician. Now he wasn't the only

107
00:06:29,592 --> 00:06:31,792
Speaker 4: person to come up with this theory. There were two

108
00:06:31,872 --> 00:06:35,512
Speaker 4: medical examiners in the United States who at the same

109
00:06:35,592 --> 00:06:39,672
Speaker 4: time came up with a very similar theory. And what

110
00:06:40,192 --> 00:06:43,351
Speaker 4: stood out for me in looking at this but a

111
00:06:43,392 --> 00:06:45,592
Speaker 4: couple of things. First of all, that this was based,

112
00:06:45,632 --> 00:06:48,072
Speaker 4: I think, in Roy Meadow's cases, was based simply on

113
00:06:48,152 --> 00:06:52,632
Speaker 4: his practical and clinical experience as a pediatrician, but not

114
00:06:52,672 --> 00:06:58,392
Speaker 4: on any kind of justified statistical analysis of the cases

115
00:06:58,392 --> 00:07:02,632
Speaker 4: of infants who died suddenly and unexpectedly in families. And

116
00:07:03,032 --> 00:07:04,752
Speaker 4: the second thing that stood out for me was that

117
00:07:04,792 --> 00:07:07,512
Speaker 4: in the case of the medical examiner in the United States,

118
00:07:08,272 --> 00:07:12,592
Speaker 4: their inclination was to blame the mothers rather than the father's.

119
00:07:12,872 --> 00:07:17,392
Speaker 4: So one of these medical examiners wrote to a pediatric

120
00:07:18,072 --> 00:07:22,392
Speaker 4: learned publication saying exactly that that in almost all of

121
00:07:22,432 --> 00:07:26,192
Speaker 4: the cases where there'd been sudden unexpected deaths which were homicides,

122
00:07:26,632 --> 00:07:29,232
Speaker 4: it was the mother who had carried out the killing.

123
00:07:29,992 --> 00:07:33,632
Speaker 4: And so that of itself kind of set a framework,

124
00:07:33,672 --> 00:07:37,472
Speaker 4: if you like, which suggested that in any case where

125
00:07:37,512 --> 00:07:41,272
Speaker 4: there had been three or more sudden unexpected deaths of

126
00:07:41,312 --> 00:07:44,752
Speaker 4: infants in a family, not only was that homicide, but

127
00:07:44,792 --> 00:07:46,832
Speaker 4: almost certainly it was the mother who had carried out

128
00:07:46,832 --> 00:07:47,552
Speaker 4: the homicide.

129
00:07:48,352 --> 00:07:52,352
Speaker 1: When you consider Kathleen Folbig's case, why do you think

130
00:07:52,352 --> 00:07:55,352
Speaker 1: suspicion then only fell on them after the death of

131
00:07:55,392 --> 00:07:57,552
Speaker 1: their fourth child? Because if we look at Meadow's law,

132
00:07:57,952 --> 00:08:00,472
Speaker 1: as you've suggested, they should, after the third death be

133
00:08:00,592 --> 00:08:05,912
Speaker 1: really considered a homicide case. So why did it have

134
00:08:05,992 --> 00:08:08,312
Speaker 1: to be four children's deaths before they looked at the

135
00:08:08,312 --> 00:08:11,312
Speaker 1: phobies in that light rather than just as them suffering

136
00:08:11,632 --> 00:08:12,952
Speaker 1: just immeasurable tragedy.

137
00:08:13,592 --> 00:08:16,032
Speaker 4: Look, I think that's a fantastic question as well, and

138
00:08:16,032 --> 00:08:17,592
Speaker 4: in fact, no one else has ever asked me that.

139
00:08:17,992 --> 00:08:21,192
Speaker 4: But I'll tell you what happened in her case was

140
00:08:21,192 --> 00:08:24,592
Speaker 4: that in each of the first three cases where the

141
00:08:24,672 --> 00:08:29,872
Speaker 4: children tragically died, there was no suspicion raised purely and simply,

142
00:08:29,912 --> 00:08:33,911
Speaker 4: I think, because in terms of the circumstances surrounding each death,

143
00:08:34,192 --> 00:08:37,431
Speaker 4: the doctors and the police found nothing that was suspicious. Now,

144
00:08:37,472 --> 00:08:42,472
Speaker 4: following the death of her third child, Sarah, two things

145
00:08:42,472 --> 00:08:45,552
Speaker 4: happened of note. First of all, as a kind of routine,

146
00:08:45,592 --> 00:08:48,712
Speaker 4: if you like, the police came to their home on

147
00:08:48,792 --> 00:08:51,912
Speaker 4: the night that Sarah died, and they carried out a

148
00:08:51,912 --> 00:08:55,112
Speaker 4: pretty farer kind of look at their place, and you know,

149
00:08:55,472 --> 00:08:57,952
Speaker 4: I think really just as a matter of kind of

150
00:08:58,032 --> 00:09:00,552
Speaker 4: routine in order to just double check that there was

151
00:09:00,632 --> 00:09:03,832
Speaker 4: kind of nothing suspicious, and they didn't believe that there

152
00:09:03,952 --> 00:09:06,872
Speaker 4: was anything suspicious. This is the police. And the second

153
00:09:06,912 --> 00:09:10,792
Speaker 4: thing that happened with Sarah's death is that her post mortem,

154
00:09:10,872 --> 00:09:15,072
Speaker 4: her autopsy, was carried out by a very eminent forensic

155
00:09:15,112 --> 00:09:19,312
Speaker 4: pathologist called John Hilton, and he examined the body, he

156
00:09:19,392 --> 00:09:21,992
Speaker 4: carried out the autopsy, and he came to the conclusion

157
00:09:22,632 --> 00:09:26,511
Speaker 4: that she had died from Sid's sudden infant death syndrome

158
00:09:26,992 --> 00:09:30,912
Speaker 4: and he couldn't see anything suspicious in her death. And

159
00:09:30,952 --> 00:09:34,192
Speaker 4: so at that point you know, the death was kind

160
00:09:34,192 --> 00:09:39,312
Speaker 4: of squared away as being SIDS and Caleb had been ascribed.

161
00:09:39,432 --> 00:09:42,952
Speaker 4: Caleb's death had been ascribed to SIDS. Caleb was their firstborn.

162
00:09:43,752 --> 00:09:47,952
Speaker 4: And so the suspicion was raised in Laura's case mainly

163
00:09:48,392 --> 00:09:52,832
Speaker 4: because a police officer came to John Hilton and said,

164
00:09:53,192 --> 00:09:56,072
Speaker 4: this is the fourth death in the family. And I

165
00:09:56,072 --> 00:09:58,312
Speaker 4: think that kind of tipped him over the edge if

166
00:09:58,352 --> 00:10:02,872
Speaker 4: you like to exclaiming, well, I mean, he's Scottish, I

167
00:10:02,872 --> 00:10:04,792
Speaker 4: can't do a Scottish accent, but he said, you know,

168
00:10:04,912 --> 00:10:09,752
Speaker 4: for is fucking murder. And I think the problem then

169
00:10:10,472 --> 00:10:14,752
Speaker 4: was that John Hilton, who was an extremely eminent forensic

170
00:10:14,752 --> 00:10:17,152
Speaker 4: pathologist and who came to believe that she was innocent,

171
00:10:17,272 --> 00:10:20,872
Speaker 4: by the way, but he was working in a context

172
00:10:21,152 --> 00:10:24,912
Speaker 4: where Meadow's Law was kind of in the ascendant if

173
00:10:24,952 --> 00:10:29,392
Speaker 4: you like. Meadow's Law was accepted I think among many,

174
00:10:29,472 --> 00:10:33,432
Speaker 4: if not all, of the forensic pathologists working at that time,

175
00:10:34,672 --> 00:10:37,272
Speaker 4: and so he believed it was murder. They had a

176
00:10:37,312 --> 00:10:40,512
Speaker 4: meeting and essentially, you know, the alarm was raised because

177
00:10:40,552 --> 00:10:43,792
Speaker 4: it seemed to be suspicious. Now, what then happened was

178
00:10:43,832 --> 00:10:47,912
Speaker 4: that the autopsy on Laura was carried out by another

179
00:10:47,992 --> 00:10:52,712
Speaker 4: forensic pathologist called doctor Alan Carla, who actually found an

180
00:10:52,752 --> 00:10:57,912
Speaker 4: active potential reason for her death, which was a heart

181
00:10:57,952 --> 00:11:03,192
Speaker 4: condition called myocarditis, But because the whole context was tainted

182
00:11:04,032 --> 00:11:06,752
Speaker 4: by Meadow's law, and because they had been three other

183
00:11:06,792 --> 00:11:10,552
Speaker 4: deaths in the family, doctor Carla declared that in his view,

184
00:11:10,992 --> 00:11:14,872
Speaker 4: the cause of death was undetermined, and then the police

185
00:11:14,952 --> 00:11:17,112
Speaker 4: kind of at that point set off on their investigation.

186
00:11:17,312 --> 00:11:20,472
Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about that investigation, because in this

187
00:11:20,552 --> 00:11:23,832
Speaker 1: case it does feel very extreme when you really look

188
00:11:23,872 --> 00:11:26,912
Speaker 1: at how they conducted it. They tapped the Polvig's phone,

189
00:11:27,072 --> 00:11:31,192
Speaker 1: they bugged their home, they questioned them, sometimes without lawyers,

190
00:11:31,192 --> 00:11:34,512
Speaker 1: sometimes for eight hours at a time, Like it seemed

191
00:11:34,512 --> 00:11:38,472
Speaker 1: like a very extreme investigation in this case. Would that

192
00:11:38,552 --> 00:11:40,672
Speaker 1: have been unusual for a case like this or was

193
00:11:40,712 --> 00:11:42,631
Speaker 1: that standard police procedure at the time.

194
00:11:42,992 --> 00:11:46,672
Speaker 4: It's very interesting you say that, Claire. Can I just

195
00:11:46,712 --> 00:11:49,712
Speaker 4: take a step back. In the United States, there had

196
00:11:49,752 --> 00:11:53,632
Speaker 4: been the case of a woman called Wanitahyde whose children

197
00:11:53,672 --> 00:11:57,192
Speaker 4: had died. Four of them had died apparently from natural causes,

198
00:11:57,272 --> 00:12:00,631
Speaker 4: and then a medical examiner and the police decided that

199
00:12:00,752 --> 00:12:04,992
Speaker 4: they thought it was suspicious and they brought her in

200
00:12:05,512 --> 00:12:07,632
Speaker 4: we need to hide under the guise of you know,

201
00:12:07,712 --> 00:12:10,872
Speaker 4: can you please help us just to explain, you know,

202
00:12:10,912 --> 00:12:14,432
Speaker 4: the circumstances surrounding the deaths of your children. And it

203
00:12:14,512 --> 00:12:17,392
Speaker 4: turned into an extremely aggressive interview, at the end of

204
00:12:17,432 --> 00:12:20,912
Speaker 4: which she confessed to killing the children, but she later

205
00:12:21,472 --> 00:12:25,552
Speaker 4: retracted her confession because it had been extracted from her

206
00:12:25,632 --> 00:12:29,992
Speaker 4: frankly under duress. Now in Kathleen Folbek's case, something similar happened.

207
00:12:30,552 --> 00:12:33,912
Speaker 4: So Bernie Ryan, the detective who was heading the investigation,

208
00:12:34,072 --> 00:12:37,912
Speaker 4: invited Kathy to come in and be interviewed. And as

209
00:12:37,912 --> 00:12:43,631
Speaker 4: you say, no lawyer was brought in to help represent her.

210
00:12:43,832 --> 00:12:47,112
Speaker 4: She was on her own completely, Craig, her husband wasn't

211
00:12:47,112 --> 00:12:51,192
Speaker 4: even in the room with her, and she was interrogated

212
00:12:51,272 --> 00:12:54,992
Speaker 4: for you know, well, she spent the whole day basically

213
00:12:55,032 --> 00:12:57,391
Speaker 4: being interrogated. So for kind of seven or eight hours

214
00:12:57,632 --> 00:13:00,592
Speaker 4: she was interrogated. And it was interesting how the interview

215
00:13:00,632 --> 00:13:03,592
Speaker 4: was carried out by Bernie Ryan, because he started off

216
00:13:03,712 --> 00:13:06,632
Speaker 4: just you know, in a neutral way, asking her to

217
00:13:06,672 --> 00:13:09,152
Speaker 4: tell her story and the story of her children, and

218
00:13:09,192 --> 00:13:12,512
Speaker 4: it was only after about seven hours that he suddenly

219
00:13:12,592 --> 00:13:17,112
Speaker 4: hit her with this kind of chilling series of questions,

220
00:13:17,152 --> 00:13:20,472
Speaker 4: you know, did you kill Caleb, did you kill Patrick?

221
00:13:20,792 --> 00:13:22,952
Speaker 4: Did you kill Sarah? Did you kill Lauren? And he

222
00:13:22,992 --> 00:13:26,152
Speaker 4: repeated this. He asked her this twice, and of course

223
00:13:26,192 --> 00:13:29,672
Speaker 4: at that point she realized that she was actually the

224
00:13:29,752 --> 00:13:32,631
Speaker 4: kind of prime suspect in this investigation.

225
00:13:33,032 --> 00:13:35,592
Speaker 1: Well, can you tell me about the conversation that police

226
00:13:35,632 --> 00:13:39,752
Speaker 1: recorded between Craig and Kathy That would sound quite condemning

227
00:13:39,792 --> 00:13:40,631
Speaker 1: at the time.

228
00:13:40,872 --> 00:13:46,312
Speaker 4: The investigation was intensely intrusive on Kathleen and indeed on

229
00:13:46,792 --> 00:13:50,552
Speaker 4: Craig her husband. As you say, they bugged their home.

230
00:13:51,392 --> 00:13:53,992
Speaker 4: And what I find particularly interesting, and I revealed this

231
00:13:54,312 --> 00:13:57,072
Speaker 4: in my book for the first time, is that the

232
00:13:57,352 --> 00:14:01,712
Speaker 4: only time that either parent got even close to a

233
00:14:01,752 --> 00:14:05,792
Speaker 4: confession of having harmed their children was when they secretly

234
00:14:05,872 --> 00:14:09,832
Speaker 4: recorded conversation where Craig came down one morning and he

235
00:14:09,872 --> 00:14:12,872
Speaker 4: said to Kathy, he said, all night I've been thinking

236
00:14:13,312 --> 00:14:18,151
Speaker 4: maybe I killed the kids. Now you know that must

237
00:14:18,152 --> 00:14:21,192
Speaker 4: have been an absolutely chilling moment, both for Kathy and

238
00:14:21,312 --> 00:14:24,752
Speaker 4: indeed for the police who the detectives who were listening in.

239
00:14:24,792 --> 00:14:28,232
Speaker 4: But what I think is very striking about this is

240
00:14:28,232 --> 00:14:32,592
Speaker 4: that this secretly recorded conversation was one where not only

241
00:14:32,632 --> 00:14:35,752
Speaker 4: did he say that I've been thinking maybe I killed

242
00:14:35,752 --> 00:14:38,752
Speaker 4: the kids. He then went into a great detail about

243
00:14:38,792 --> 00:14:41,152
Speaker 4: exactly how he could have killed them and what his

244
00:14:41,232 --> 00:14:46,592
Speaker 4: motive would have been. But this entire conversation, almost all

245
00:14:46,592 --> 00:14:50,472
Speaker 4: of it was suppressed at her trial, and then when eventually,

246
00:14:50,872 --> 00:14:53,072
Speaker 4: years and years later, in twenty nineteen, there was a

247
00:14:53,152 --> 00:14:57,312
Speaker 4: judicial inquiry into her case, it was completely suppressed at

248
00:14:57,352 --> 00:15:00,792
Speaker 4: that inquiry, and it was only much later on at

249
00:15:00,792 --> 00:15:04,992
Speaker 4: the second inquiry, just before she was finally pardoned and released,

250
00:15:05,712 --> 00:15:07,872
Speaker 4: that it was actually put on the recorder and it

251
00:15:07,912 --> 00:15:10,432
Speaker 4: was kind of allowed to be seen. And I think

252
00:15:10,432 --> 00:15:13,752
Speaker 4: that's very striking, and I think it's an extraordinary example

253
00:15:13,912 --> 00:15:18,152
Speaker 4: of the underlying misogyny, if you like, in the investigation

254
00:15:18,392 --> 00:15:20,792
Speaker 4: and in the prosecution of Kathleen Folbeck.

255
00:15:21,392 --> 00:15:25,672
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned the detective who was leading this investigation.

256
00:15:26,312 --> 00:15:32,112
Speaker 1: He would not consider Craig a suspect really at any stage,

257
00:15:32,192 --> 00:15:34,632
Speaker 1: it seemed during this process, and in fact, he would

258
00:15:34,632 --> 00:15:37,272
Speaker 1: go and meet with Craig, sometimes at his place of work,

259
00:15:37,352 --> 00:15:39,672
Speaker 1: like out of the blue, to try and convince him

260
00:15:39,712 --> 00:15:42,792
Speaker 1: that mothers do kill their children like that? Is that

261
00:15:43,432 --> 00:15:46,312
Speaker 1: how investigations unfold. I mean, I'm not a police officer.

262
00:15:46,352 --> 00:15:48,992
Speaker 1: I don't understand how these work, but that feels like

263
00:15:49,632 --> 00:15:52,632
Speaker 1: the detective is trying to lead Craig towards a conclusion.

264
00:15:54,552 --> 00:15:58,072
Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right, Claire, and speaking personally, I

265
00:15:58,072 --> 00:16:02,272
Speaker 4: think it's entirely improper for the lead detective in a

266
00:16:02,312 --> 00:16:06,152
Speaker 4: homicide or potential homicide investigation to be, you know, which

267
00:16:06,352 --> 00:16:10,992
Speaker 4: involves both parents, who obviously are both key witnesses, to

268
00:16:11,072 --> 00:16:14,592
Speaker 4: go to one parent and start talking to them. And indeed,

269
00:16:14,832 --> 00:16:19,112
Speaker 4: you know, Craig Folbig in the trial revealed that Bernie

270
00:16:19,152 --> 00:16:21,712
Speaker 4: Ryan had come to him and said, you know, it's

271
00:16:21,752 --> 00:16:25,232
Speaker 4: not just women in housing commissions, you know. In other words,

272
00:16:25,272 --> 00:16:27,832
Speaker 4: he was suggesting, you know, kind of poverty stricken women

273
00:16:27,872 --> 00:16:30,512
Speaker 4: on drugs or whatever who kill their children. It can

274
00:16:30,552 --> 00:16:33,592
Speaker 4: be kind of middle class women as well. So Bernie

275
00:16:33,632 --> 00:16:36,312
Speaker 4: Ryan had obviously been talking to him and kind of

276
00:16:36,312 --> 00:16:39,032
Speaker 4: getting into his ear. And then the other highly significant

277
00:16:39,032 --> 00:16:42,432
Speaker 4: thing is that in April two thousand and one, when

278
00:16:42,472 --> 00:16:48,592
Speaker 4: the investigation was still ongoing, they actually arrested Craig Folbig

279
00:16:49,072 --> 00:16:54,792
Speaker 4: under suspicion of impeding or obstructing the investigation. Now, the

280
00:16:54,832 --> 00:16:58,272
Speaker 4: effect of that must have been, and indeed was to

281
00:16:58,272 --> 00:17:02,032
Speaker 4: put pressure on Craig Folbig to essentially say what the

282
00:17:02,072 --> 00:17:05,911
Speaker 4: police wanted him to say. And it's very interesting because

283
00:17:06,591 --> 00:17:08,792
Speaker 4: in this interview that followed that they brought him in,

284
00:17:08,871 --> 00:17:11,512
Speaker 4: they said, you know, were arresting you on suspicion of

285
00:17:12,591 --> 00:17:14,831
Speaker 4: impeding the investigation. They then interviewed him. He did a

286
00:17:14,911 --> 00:17:17,311
Speaker 4: long interview in which essentially he said all the things

287
00:17:17,311 --> 00:17:19,871
Speaker 4: that the police wanted him to say, and he agreed

288
00:17:19,911 --> 00:17:23,871
Speaker 4: to be a witness against Kathy at her trial. I

289
00:17:23,952 --> 00:17:29,752
Speaker 4: think it's incontrovertible that pressure was put on Craig Folbig,

290
00:17:30,151 --> 00:17:34,471
Speaker 4: Kathy's husband, to you know, to give evidence against her,

291
00:17:34,512 --> 00:17:36,951
Speaker 4: and that indeed is exactly what happened at her trial.

292
00:17:37,192 --> 00:17:40,432
Speaker 1: Well, part of that pressure that Craig felt did lead

293
00:17:40,512 --> 00:17:43,871
Speaker 1: him to give police some evidence which would later prove

294
00:17:43,952 --> 00:17:47,271
Speaker 1: to be incredibly damning for Kathleen at her trial, and

295
00:17:47,272 --> 00:17:50,792
Speaker 1: that was her diaries. But can you explain to us

296
00:17:50,871 --> 00:17:55,431
Speaker 1: how those diaries were interpreted during the initial trial, because

297
00:17:55,431 --> 00:17:59,631
Speaker 1: they had like a lineup of experts to discuss, which

298
00:17:59,712 --> 00:18:03,152
Speaker 1: was never really refuted by the defense with their own

299
00:18:03,192 --> 00:18:06,792
Speaker 1: experts at the time. But how did they interpret Athleen's

300
00:18:06,831 --> 00:18:09,631
Speaker 1: diary entries to prove to the jury that she had

301
00:18:09,712 --> 00:18:10,592
Speaker 1: murdered her children.

302
00:18:11,272 --> 00:18:16,431
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, you're getting into a really interesting area here, Claire,

303
00:18:16,472 --> 00:18:20,552
Speaker 4: because what happened at her trial was that the diaries,

304
00:18:20,911 --> 00:18:25,432
Speaker 4: there was something like forty different extracts from her diaries

305
00:18:26,232 --> 00:18:28,671
Speaker 4: which were kind of read out in open court to

306
00:18:28,792 --> 00:18:32,272
Speaker 4: the jury, okay, And what happened was that the senior

307
00:18:32,311 --> 00:18:37,592
Speaker 4: Crown prosecutor, Mark Tadeski interpreted these entries in her diaries

308
00:18:37,591 --> 00:18:42,232
Speaker 4: as being virtual admissions to having killed her children. And indeed,

309
00:18:42,591 --> 00:18:44,912
Speaker 4: with one or two of these entries, he actually kind

310
00:18:44,911 --> 00:18:48,191
Speaker 4: of put words into her mouth. He said, you know

311
00:18:48,952 --> 00:18:51,591
Speaker 4: about one entry, what could this possibly mean other than

312
00:18:52,111 --> 00:18:55,191
Speaker 4: you know, I killed the children or I killed this child.

313
00:18:56,032 --> 00:19:00,311
Speaker 4: So that is what he did. However, the main experts

314
00:19:00,351 --> 00:19:04,031
Speaker 4: who appeared at the trial were the medical experts, and

315
00:19:04,071 --> 00:19:07,831
Speaker 4: what the medical experts were saying was that in their experience,

316
00:19:08,472 --> 00:19:11,311
Speaker 4: they had never come across a family where three or

317
00:19:11,351 --> 00:19:14,712
Speaker 4: more children had died from natural causes. So they were

318
00:19:14,911 --> 00:19:18,952
Speaker 4: essentially parroting Meadows law. Okay in terms of their own experience.

319
00:19:19,151 --> 00:19:21,391
Speaker 1: Was that true? Because you've already mentioned there was another

320
00:19:21,431 --> 00:19:25,111
Speaker 1: case where four children had died, So they are testifying

321
00:19:25,151 --> 00:19:27,471
Speaker 1: that there's just been no other case of this happening

322
00:19:27,512 --> 00:19:28,871
Speaker 1: that then is not true.

323
00:19:28,911 --> 00:19:30,951
Speaker 4: Well, in fairness to the medical experts, I think what

324
00:19:30,992 --> 00:19:33,351
Speaker 4: they were doing was they were saying, you know, in

325
00:19:33,391 --> 00:19:36,431
Speaker 4: our experience, in my experience, I've never come across a

326
00:19:36,472 --> 00:19:39,552
Speaker 4: case like that. But in fact, you're absolutely right. And

327
00:19:39,591 --> 00:19:42,631
Speaker 4: this was one of the main reasons that the first

328
00:19:42,752 --> 00:19:45,591
Speaker 4: judicial inquiry was called was because it was later shown

329
00:19:45,631 --> 00:19:48,871
Speaker 4: to be the case that yes, indeed, of course there

330
00:19:48,871 --> 00:19:51,831
Speaker 4: had been other families where multiple children had died from

331
00:19:51,911 --> 00:19:54,871
Speaker 4: natural causes, so the jury was completely misled on that point.

332
00:19:55,391 --> 00:19:57,591
Speaker 4: But the point I want to make about the diaries

333
00:19:57,752 --> 00:20:02,472
Speaker 4: is this that although there were multiple medical experts appearing

334
00:20:02,591 --> 00:20:08,672
Speaker 4: at the trial, there were no psychological or psychiatric experts

335
00:20:08,752 --> 00:20:13,032
Speaker 4: who appeared at the trial to interpret the diaries. It

336
00:20:13,071 --> 00:20:18,391
Speaker 4: was only after she had been convicted that psychiatrists submitted

337
00:20:18,431 --> 00:20:21,511
Speaker 4: reports about her mental state and whether or not she

338
00:20:21,591 --> 00:20:25,951
Speaker 4: was psychotic. And incidentally, none of the psychiatrists suggested that

339
00:20:26,032 --> 00:20:29,111
Speaker 4: she had a psychosis which would have impelled her to

340
00:20:29,232 --> 00:20:32,351
Speaker 4: kill any of her children. So the problem for Kathe

341
00:20:32,792 --> 00:20:35,591
Speaker 4: and her defense was that there was no one standing

342
00:20:35,671 --> 00:20:37,871
Speaker 4: up at her trial to say, well, hang on, you know,

343
00:20:37,911 --> 00:20:41,831
Speaker 4: the senior Crown prosecutor is saying that these diary entries

344
00:20:41,831 --> 00:20:44,792
Speaker 4: are virtual admissions of guilt. Well, actually there's an alternative explanation,

345
00:20:44,831 --> 00:20:48,231
Speaker 4: and here it is really they were reliant on the

346
00:20:48,272 --> 00:20:53,031
Speaker 4: defense and Peter Tzara, the senior public defender who appeared

347
00:20:53,071 --> 00:20:56,391
Speaker 4: on her behalf, giving an alternative explanation, but without the

348
00:20:56,391 --> 00:20:59,192
Speaker 4: benefit of being able to cross examine experts who might

349
00:20:59,192 --> 00:20:59,992
Speaker 4: have backed that up.

350
00:21:00,591 --> 00:21:05,552
Speaker 1: For people who weren't aware of Kathleen Folbigg's trial when

351
00:21:05,552 --> 00:21:09,191
Speaker 1: at first done FA in the early two thousands, what

352
00:21:09,391 --> 00:21:13,191
Speaker 1: was the media coverage like then, because we know that

353
00:21:13,272 --> 00:21:18,071
Speaker 1: they have the ability to swagh public opinion. What picture

354
00:21:18,071 --> 00:21:20,032
Speaker 1: were they painting of Kathleen Folbig.

355
00:21:20,431 --> 00:21:24,392
Speaker 4: Well, it was a brutal picture essentially. Now, I think

356
00:21:24,431 --> 00:21:26,671
Speaker 4: it's fair to say that as the trial went on,

357
00:21:26,792 --> 00:21:30,952
Speaker 4: of course, court reporters were doing what court reporters always

358
00:21:30,952 --> 00:21:34,631
Speaker 4: do and do professionally, which is to report the proceedings

359
00:21:34,671 --> 00:21:38,552
Speaker 4: in court. But as the trial progressed, it was becoming

360
00:21:38,871 --> 00:21:43,272
Speaker 4: clearer and clearer that the prosecution was presenting evidence which

361
00:21:43,272 --> 00:21:45,471
Speaker 4: on the face of it looked very damning, particularly in

362
00:21:45,512 --> 00:21:48,311
Speaker 4: relation to the diaries and the medical experts, and also

363
00:21:48,351 --> 00:21:52,071
Speaker 4: in relation to the evidence that was given by Craig Folbeg,

364
00:21:52,232 --> 00:21:56,672
Speaker 4: who got up in the witness box and exaggerated frankly

365
00:21:57,232 --> 00:22:00,712
Speaker 4: various insignificant incidents which had happened at home, as if

366
00:22:00,752 --> 00:22:05,191
Speaker 4: to suggest that his wife was actually a murderous Okay, now,

367
00:22:05,351 --> 00:22:09,831
Speaker 4: it's very interesting. Cathy herself was acutely aware of how

368
00:22:09,992 --> 00:22:12,912
Speaker 4: all of this might appear in the media and might

369
00:22:12,952 --> 00:22:16,272
Speaker 4: appear to the public. And I include in the book

370
00:22:16,472 --> 00:22:19,512
Speaker 4: this really revealing story. I think of how one day

371
00:22:20,111 --> 00:22:22,512
Speaker 4: she came out of court, she was walking along the road.

372
00:22:23,472 --> 00:22:26,511
Speaker 4: She spoke on the phone to one of her very

373
00:22:26,512 --> 00:22:31,032
Speaker 4: best friends, Megan, and she said to Megan, I'm trying

374
00:22:31,032 --> 00:22:35,192
Speaker 4: not to laugh. And Meghan said, well, why is that.

375
00:22:35,431 --> 00:22:37,992
Speaker 4: You know, why what's happened? And she said, well, there's

376
00:22:38,032 --> 00:22:41,712
Speaker 4: a cameraman in front of me who's kind of filming

377
00:22:41,712 --> 00:22:43,512
Speaker 4: me and backing away, and he's just backed into a

378
00:22:43,552 --> 00:22:48,591
Speaker 4: garbage bin. And she said, but I can't laugh because

379
00:22:48,591 --> 00:22:51,552
Speaker 4: of how it'll be portrayed. And I think that is

380
00:22:51,591 --> 00:22:55,351
Speaker 4: both poignant and extremely revealing. What it showed was that

381
00:22:55,431 --> 00:23:00,232
Speaker 4: she was acutely aware that if she was photographed laughing

382
00:23:00,351 --> 00:23:04,391
Speaker 4: outside court, that would be interpreted by the media as

383
00:23:04,911 --> 00:23:08,232
Speaker 4: her being a callous bitch and a murderers. But of course,

384
00:23:08,272 --> 00:23:10,911
Speaker 4: in the event what happened, it was a catch twenty

385
00:23:10,952 --> 00:23:14,752
Speaker 4: two because by holding her emotions in and by not

386
00:23:15,431 --> 00:23:19,071
Speaker 4: showing her emotions in public, you know, she was portrayed

387
00:23:19,111 --> 00:23:21,911
Speaker 4: as a kind of cold, unfeeling bitch, you know. And

388
00:23:21,952 --> 00:23:24,792
Speaker 4: then after the trial, after she was convicted, I mean,

389
00:23:24,792 --> 00:23:27,231
Speaker 4: the media just descended on her like a kind of

390
00:23:27,272 --> 00:23:31,191
Speaker 4: torrent really, And there had been there was one diary

391
00:23:31,311 --> 00:23:35,071
Speaker 4: entry which had been ruled inadmissible at her trial, but

392
00:23:35,111 --> 00:23:38,672
Speaker 4: which the media was allowed to publish following her conviction,

393
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:41,631
Speaker 4: and that was the entry where she said, just a

394
00:23:41,631 --> 00:23:45,911
Speaker 4: few words, obviously, I am my father's daughter. Now the

395
00:23:45,992 --> 00:23:49,591
Speaker 4: media lect on this. It kind of permeated almost all

396
00:23:49,591 --> 00:23:51,991
Speaker 4: of the coverage following her conviction because of course what

397
00:23:52,071 --> 00:23:56,231
Speaker 4: she was doing there where she was referring to her father,

398
00:23:56,391 --> 00:24:00,952
Speaker 4: her biological father, who had murdered her biological mother by

399
00:24:00,992 --> 00:24:04,951
Speaker 4: stabbing her twenty four times in a street. Okay, Now,

400
00:24:04,952 --> 00:24:08,552
Speaker 4: the media obviously interprets did this as her saying when

401
00:24:08,552 --> 00:24:10,792
Speaker 4: she said, obviously I am my father's daughter. You know,

402
00:24:10,911 --> 00:24:14,311
Speaker 4: I am a killer like him. But she has an

403
00:24:14,472 --> 00:24:17,671
Speaker 4: entirely different explanation for why she wrote that, which is,

404
00:24:17,712 --> 00:24:21,831
Speaker 4: you know, I was simply comparing myself to him and thinking,

405
00:24:21,871 --> 00:24:23,911
Speaker 4: you know, I'm a loser. You know, my life is

406
00:24:24,391 --> 00:24:27,591
Speaker 4: a mess. I'm a loser like he was. So the

407
00:24:27,671 --> 00:24:30,912
Speaker 4: media was absolutely brutal, and of course they were publishing

408
00:24:30,992 --> 00:24:33,192
Speaker 4: these articles right at the point where she was being

409
00:24:33,311 --> 00:24:38,432
Speaker 4: kind of transported to prison where she faced terrible, terrible,

410
00:24:39,272 --> 00:24:43,111
Speaker 4: you know, vilification from the other inmates. Because when you

411
00:24:43,151 --> 00:24:46,872
Speaker 4: go to prison as a mother convicted of killing one

412
00:24:46,952 --> 00:24:49,471
Speaker 4: or more of your children, you are absolutely the lowest

413
00:24:49,472 --> 00:24:51,272
Speaker 4: of the lure. You're the scum of the earth. You're

414
00:24:51,351 --> 00:24:54,272
Speaker 4: the you know, the rock spider and so on, and

415
00:24:54,431 --> 00:24:56,911
Speaker 4: you know, if you're in a public part of prison,

416
00:24:56,952 --> 00:24:59,592
Speaker 4: you're in real, potential, real danger.

417
00:25:00,151 --> 00:25:02,272
Speaker 1: I want to talk about her prison experience in a minute,

418
00:25:02,272 --> 00:25:04,712
Speaker 1: were going I backtracked just a little to talk about

419
00:25:05,071 --> 00:25:10,632
Speaker 1: Kathleen's father and her upbringing, because it was a tragedy

420
00:25:10,631 --> 00:25:12,391
Speaker 1: from the very beginning for her. It seems to have

421
00:25:12,391 --> 00:25:15,511
Speaker 1: followed her for the majority of her life. But did

422
00:25:15,712 --> 00:25:19,951
Speaker 1: that start to life impact how she was viewed within

423
00:25:20,032 --> 00:25:22,712
Speaker 1: the trial itself, because you could view that in two ways.

424
00:25:22,712 --> 00:25:25,472
Speaker 1: She seemed like a person who'd taken adversity in sort

425
00:25:25,512 --> 00:25:28,631
Speaker 1: of made something of her life and had kind of

426
00:25:28,792 --> 00:25:32,272
Speaker 1: gone above and beyond those terrible starts. But then other

427
00:25:32,311 --> 00:25:35,472
Speaker 1: people might have viewed that as well. Obviously that trauma

428
00:25:35,512 --> 00:25:37,911
Speaker 1: has manifested in a way where she too has felt

429
00:25:37,911 --> 00:25:42,311
Speaker 1: the need to kill another human being. Did that shape

430
00:25:42,591 --> 00:25:45,032
Speaker 1: the trial itself, that start to life for.

431
00:25:45,032 --> 00:25:47,552
Speaker 4: Her, I wouldn't say it did shape the trial itself

432
00:25:47,631 --> 00:25:49,391
Speaker 4: for a couple of reasons. First of all, she didn't

433
00:25:49,431 --> 00:25:52,392
Speaker 4: herself give evidence, and so you know, there wasn't this

434
00:25:52,472 --> 00:25:54,991
Speaker 4: kind of scenario in court where she would have been

435
00:25:54,992 --> 00:25:57,032
Speaker 4: in the witness box and would have described her own

436
00:25:57,512 --> 00:25:59,991
Speaker 4: early life. And then the other key point about her

437
00:26:00,032 --> 00:26:02,111
Speaker 4: early life, which is as I say, is the fact

438
00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:05,351
Speaker 4: that her biological father murdered her mother was ruled in

439
00:26:05,391 --> 00:26:09,032
Speaker 4: admissible and so that wasn't brought up in court at all. Now,

440
00:26:09,032 --> 00:26:12,472
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right. I mean, her very early life was

441
00:26:13,151 --> 00:26:17,272
Speaker 4: just horrific and tragic, you know, because her father murdered

442
00:26:17,272 --> 00:26:20,631
Speaker 4: her mother when she was approximately eighteen months old, and

443
00:26:20,671 --> 00:26:24,232
Speaker 4: then she was farmed out to a relative's family who

444
00:26:24,671 --> 00:26:28,792
Speaker 4: sometime later rejected her essentially, and she was put into

445
00:26:28,871 --> 00:26:31,032
Speaker 4: care the care of the state. As a state ward,

446
00:26:31,552 --> 00:26:34,672
Speaker 4: she was farmed out, first of all to two separate

447
00:26:35,032 --> 00:26:38,111
Speaker 4: children's homes, which in those days would have been pretty grim.

448
00:26:38,311 --> 00:26:41,991
Speaker 4: And then finally she was taken on board, if you like,

449
00:26:42,272 --> 00:26:46,391
Speaker 4: by a foster family and transported up to Newcastle, to

450
00:26:46,472 --> 00:26:50,071
Speaker 4: the suburb of Katara in Newcastle, where she lived with

451
00:26:50,151 --> 00:26:52,591
Speaker 4: his foster family. But the problem there, I think was

452
00:26:52,631 --> 00:26:55,991
Speaker 4: that it was a very dysfunctional family. The foster parents

453
00:26:55,992 --> 00:27:00,432
Speaker 4: were much much older than parents of a tiny girl

454
00:27:00,472 --> 00:27:04,552
Speaker 4: would normally be, and indeed her foster brother and foster

455
00:27:04,631 --> 00:27:06,591
Speaker 4: sister were a lot older, and they were kind of

456
00:27:06,631 --> 00:27:09,911
Speaker 4: leaving home essentially. And then on top of that, her

457
00:27:09,952 --> 00:27:14,191
Speaker 4: foster mother was sometimes really quite unpleasant and even cruel

458
00:27:14,431 --> 00:27:16,511
Speaker 4: to her, you know, made her do lots of chores.

459
00:27:16,512 --> 00:27:18,391
Speaker 4: She was a bit like a kind of Cinderella figure,

460
00:27:18,472 --> 00:27:21,351
Speaker 4: I think, and if she failed to do them, or

461
00:27:21,391 --> 00:27:24,311
Speaker 4: if she was blamed for something, her foster mother would

462
00:27:24,351 --> 00:27:29,232
Speaker 4: beat her physically in some respects extraordinarily unpleasant difficult upbringing

463
00:27:29,311 --> 00:27:31,191
Speaker 4: for her, and so of course, as a teenager she

464
00:27:31,272 --> 00:27:34,271
Speaker 4: kind of rebelled against all of that. And then finally,

465
00:27:34,311 --> 00:27:37,871
Speaker 4: when she was eighteen years old, she met her future husband, Craig,

466
00:27:38,311 --> 00:27:40,632
Speaker 4: and they kind of went from there. I don't think

467
00:27:40,671 --> 00:27:44,151
Speaker 4: it's correct to say that her early life featured in

468
00:27:44,232 --> 00:27:48,032
Speaker 4: any major way in the actual trial, although it did

469
00:27:48,071 --> 00:27:51,792
Speaker 4: feature in the reports written by the psychiatrist following her conviction.

470
00:27:52,752 --> 00:27:55,591
Speaker 1: Can I check in with meadows law and where we

471
00:27:55,591 --> 00:27:58,431
Speaker 1: were at with that when this trial was happening, because

472
00:27:58,552 --> 00:28:02,712
Speaker 1: I understand that it had been used in other trials

473
00:28:02,752 --> 00:28:07,792
Speaker 1: previously which were then overturned, and that it was brought

474
00:28:07,871 --> 00:28:10,632
Speaker 1: up in another and then kind of refuted. And can

475
00:28:10,671 --> 00:28:12,991
Speaker 1: you explain to us where we're at with meadows law

476
00:28:13,032 --> 00:28:16,752
Speaker 1: and the understanding of what that meant in situations like

477
00:28:16,831 --> 00:28:19,511
Speaker 1: Kathleen Folbick had found herself in while this trial was

478
00:28:19,552 --> 00:28:21,151
Speaker 1: happening in the early two thousands.

479
00:28:21,631 --> 00:28:26,192
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely so. Meadows law kind of originated from approximately

480
00:28:26,311 --> 00:28:28,991
Speaker 4: kind of ten or fifteen years before her trial, okay,

481
00:28:29,192 --> 00:28:32,991
Speaker 4: And through the nineteen nineties it was I think accepted

482
00:28:33,071 --> 00:28:38,072
Speaker 4: probably by most forensic pathologists and probably and prosecutors and

483
00:28:38,112 --> 00:28:41,392
Speaker 4: police as being a kind of a general rule that

484
00:28:41,552 --> 00:28:44,991
Speaker 4: was valid to go by, if you like. And in

485
00:28:45,032 --> 00:28:48,392
Speaker 4: the United Kingdom there was a group of women, all

486
00:28:48,472 --> 00:28:51,432
Speaker 4: unconnected with each other, but a group of mothers who

487
00:28:51,512 --> 00:28:56,792
Speaker 4: were charged with and convicted of killing their children. Probably

488
00:28:56,792 --> 00:28:59,312
Speaker 4: the most famous case was the case of Sally Clark,

489
00:28:59,352 --> 00:29:05,191
Speaker 4: a solicitor who was convicted of killing her two sons. Okay, now,

490
00:29:06,352 --> 00:29:09,072
Speaker 4: by two thousand and three, which is when Cathie went

491
00:29:09,152 --> 00:29:13,792
Speaker 4: on trial, Sally Clark had actually been acquitted. So Sally

492
00:29:13,792 --> 00:29:16,471
Speaker 4: Clark had two appeals. The first appeal failed and then

493
00:29:16,512 --> 00:29:19,511
Speaker 4: the second appeal, which was in very early two thousand

494
00:29:19,552 --> 00:29:25,472
Speaker 4: and three, succeeded, and in the process the Meadows law theory,

495
00:29:25,992 --> 00:29:30,552
Speaker 4: which in her case was that the chances of her

496
00:29:30,592 --> 00:29:35,231
Speaker 4: two sons coming from a well off, reasonably wealthy family

497
00:29:35,592 --> 00:29:39,592
Speaker 4: dying from natural causes. Roy Meadow said he gave evidence

498
00:29:39,632 --> 00:29:41,912
Speaker 4: at her trial. He said, the chances of that happening, well,

499
00:29:42,032 --> 00:29:43,592
Speaker 4: one in seventy three million.

500
00:29:44,512 --> 00:29:46,471
Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that a lot of people who

501
00:29:46,552 --> 00:29:49,232
Speaker 1: work with stats and data have had lots of issues

502
00:29:49,272 --> 00:29:52,032
Speaker 1: with over the time. Is where these numbers all came from?

503
00:29:52,112 --> 00:29:57,911
Speaker 4: Right? Absolutely? Yes, yes, So in his case, from memory,

504
00:29:57,992 --> 00:30:01,192
Speaker 4: he said, you know, the chances of a single child

505
00:30:01,312 --> 00:30:05,552
Speaker 4: dying from SIDS is you know, one in eighty five thousand,

506
00:30:05,911 --> 00:30:08,911
Speaker 4: and he from that to say, therefore, the chances of

507
00:30:08,952 --> 00:30:12,832
Speaker 4: two children from a wealthy family dying from SIDS is

508
00:30:12,872 --> 00:30:16,232
Speaker 4: eighty five thousand times eighty five thousand, which is seventy

509
00:30:16,272 --> 00:30:19,352
Speaker 4: three million. I think my mass is correct there, but

510
00:30:19,392 --> 00:30:21,911
Speaker 4: the point is actually that the opposite is the case.

511
00:30:22,752 --> 00:30:26,632
Speaker 4: Sadly and tragically, if a family has a death from SIDS,

512
00:30:26,632 --> 00:30:30,912
Speaker 4: that actually increases the chances of a second death from SIDS. Okay,

513
00:30:31,192 --> 00:30:34,432
Speaker 4: and his statistics were completely wrong. Now, the point here

514
00:30:34,472 --> 00:30:39,632
Speaker 4: in Kathy's case is that Sally Clark was acquitted in

515
00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:42,112
Speaker 4: early two thousand and three, and literally just a couple

516
00:30:42,152 --> 00:30:45,352
Speaker 4: of months later, Kathy was put on trial charged with

517
00:30:45,472 --> 00:30:48,951
Speaker 4: murdering all four of her children. So the prosecution and

518
00:30:48,992 --> 00:30:51,952
Speaker 4: the defense knew about Sally Clark's case, and indeed, through

519
00:30:51,992 --> 00:30:56,232
Speaker 4: the rest of two thousand and three, following Kathy's conviction,

520
00:30:56,752 --> 00:30:59,472
Speaker 4: there were multiple other cases of women in the UK

521
00:31:00,232 --> 00:31:03,431
Speaker 4: who had previously been convicted and one or two of

522
00:31:03,431 --> 00:31:06,232
Speaker 4: them who were serving jail time who then won their

523
00:31:06,352 --> 00:31:10,072
Speaker 4: appeals on the same basis of Meadow's law. Now you

524
00:31:10,112 --> 00:31:13,352
Speaker 4: know what the prosecution did at Kathy's trial, quite cleverly,

525
00:31:13,392 --> 00:31:18,752
Speaker 4: I think, was not to mention Meadow's law by name, Okay,

526
00:31:19,392 --> 00:31:22,152
Speaker 4: but there was a kind of a get around for

527
00:31:22,272 --> 00:31:24,912
Speaker 4: me you know, the most notorious kind of get around

528
00:31:25,512 --> 00:31:29,231
Speaker 4: was that the senior Crome prosecutor Mark Tadeski, in his

529
00:31:29,392 --> 00:31:34,312
Speaker 4: closing address to the jury, he said, I'm paraphrasing here,

530
00:31:34,352 --> 00:31:37,152
Speaker 4: but essentially he said, is it possible that the four

531
00:31:37,232 --> 00:31:40,552
Speaker 4: children died from natural causes? Yes, it is. But equally,

532
00:31:40,872 --> 00:31:44,072
Speaker 4: he said, it's possible that farmer Joe would wake up

533
00:31:44,272 --> 00:31:48,112
Speaker 4: one morning, look out of the window and see four

534
00:31:48,272 --> 00:31:54,112
Speaker 4: piglets born to a sow who had sprouted wings and

535
00:31:54,232 --> 00:32:00,671
Speaker 4: flown away. Okay. Now this was utterly and completely misleading.

536
00:32:01,232 --> 00:32:03,312
Speaker 4: I mean, it was just crazy. Apart from the fact

537
00:32:03,312 --> 00:32:06,911
Speaker 4: that he was seemed to be, you know, metaphorically equating

538
00:32:07,431 --> 00:32:11,671
Speaker 4: Kathy and her children with a sou and her piglets,

539
00:32:12,352 --> 00:32:16,592
Speaker 4: which is arguably pretty offensive. Apart from that, he was

540
00:32:16,712 --> 00:32:19,191
Speaker 4: essentially he was saying, you know, they did all of

541
00:32:19,232 --> 00:32:22,352
Speaker 4: them die from natural cause of well, pigs might have wings, Okay,

542
00:32:22,832 --> 00:32:25,431
Speaker 4: And that just turned out to be utterly misleading and

543
00:32:25,552 --> 00:32:28,192
Speaker 4: just wrong, because, as I say, there had been multiple

544
00:32:28,232 --> 00:32:33,032
Speaker 4: other cases of families with several infants who had died

545
00:32:33,072 --> 00:32:35,512
Speaker 4: suddenly and unexpectedly and from natural causes.

546
00:32:37,712 --> 00:32:40,632
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy,

547
00:32:40,832 --> 00:32:44,671
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Quentin McDermott, Award winning investigative journalist and

548
00:32:44,752 --> 00:32:48,191
Speaker 1: author of the book Meadows Law. Next, we look at

549
00:32:48,232 --> 00:32:52,712
Speaker 1: the similarities between Kathleen's story and Lindy Chamberlain's and how

550
00:32:52,792 --> 00:32:55,792
Speaker 1: when a child dies, the justice system and media are

551
00:32:55,832 --> 00:33:03,152
Speaker 1: often a little too quick to blame. Mum, I want

552
00:33:03,152 --> 00:33:05,872
Speaker 1: to ask you a little bit about We kind of

553
00:33:05,872 --> 00:33:08,511
Speaker 1: touched on this when we're talking about the media's impact

554
00:33:08,512 --> 00:33:11,272
Speaker 1: on creating the character of Kathleen Folbig in the press.

555
00:33:11,352 --> 00:33:13,992
Speaker 1: But you mentioned that she was quite aware of how

556
00:33:14,032 --> 00:33:16,152
Speaker 1: she was being perceived and so she had to act

557
00:33:16,192 --> 00:33:19,312
Speaker 1: in certain ways which would sometimes backfire on her. But

558
00:33:20,592 --> 00:33:25,032
Speaker 1: this for Australians watching should have seemed very familiar because

559
00:33:25,072 --> 00:33:27,912
Speaker 1: we'd seen all of this happen before with Lindy Chamberlain,

560
00:33:27,952 --> 00:33:30,792
Speaker 1: whose daughter Azaria was taken by a dingo in nineteen

561
00:33:30,832 --> 00:33:34,392
Speaker 1: eighty at LaRue. Why does it seem like we didn't

562
00:33:34,592 --> 00:33:39,912
Speaker 1: learn the lesson from Lindy Chamberlain when we then applied

563
00:33:39,952 --> 00:33:41,192
Speaker 1: it to Kathleen Folbig.

564
00:33:41,911 --> 00:33:42,072
Speaker 2: Ok.

565
00:33:42,152 --> 00:33:45,632
Speaker 4: I think that's an incredibly good question as well, Claire.

566
00:33:46,032 --> 00:33:49,152
Speaker 4: Of course, Lindy Chamberlain's trial took place in the Northern territory,

567
00:33:49,392 --> 00:33:53,072
Speaker 4: and of course Kathleen Folbig's trial took place in New

568
00:33:53,112 --> 00:33:56,312
Speaker 4: South Wales, so there were kind of different different jurisdictions

569
00:33:56,352 --> 00:33:58,312
Speaker 4: if you like. But I think you're absolutely right what

570
00:33:58,392 --> 00:34:01,152
Speaker 4: I think it shows. Actually it does, I think show

571
00:34:01,232 --> 00:34:04,992
Speaker 4: a kind of inherent bias within the criminal justice system.

572
00:34:05,392 --> 00:34:08,752
Speaker 4: You know. In Lindy Chambalin's case, You're absolutely right. You know,

573
00:34:08,872 --> 00:34:12,872
Speaker 4: as it happens, the first coronial inquest in her case

574
00:34:13,632 --> 00:34:16,632
Speaker 4: absolved her of any responsibility at all. I mean, everyone

575
00:34:16,672 --> 00:34:18,672
Speaker 4: at the camp site when Azaria was taken by a

576
00:34:18,752 --> 00:34:22,111
Speaker 4: dingo was saying Zaria was taken by a dingo. It

577
00:34:22,192 --> 00:34:24,631
Speaker 4: was the police who then came back and sought other

578
00:34:24,672 --> 00:34:26,832
Speaker 4: evidence and so on, and finally she was tried and

579
00:34:26,911 --> 00:34:29,352
Speaker 4: convicted and sent to jail for the bat three and

580
00:34:29,352 --> 00:34:32,672
Speaker 4: a half years. But you know why the criminal justice

581
00:34:32,752 --> 00:34:36,231
Speaker 4: system didn't learn the lesson? Well, I'm going to say

582
00:34:36,232 --> 00:34:38,352
Speaker 4: something that may be quite shocking. I don't believe the

583
00:34:38,352 --> 00:34:43,671
Speaker 4: criminal justice system, certainly in New South Wales, has learned

584
00:34:43,672 --> 00:34:48,192
Speaker 4: the lessons of this even now. My opinion is that

585
00:34:48,792 --> 00:34:52,431
Speaker 4: in Kathleen Folbigg's case, the criminal justice system did everything

586
00:34:52,471 --> 00:34:56,031
Speaker 4: in its power following her convictions to keep her in

587
00:34:56,072 --> 00:35:02,152
Speaker 4: prison when there were multiple occasions that raised significant doubts

588
00:35:02,392 --> 00:35:05,792
Speaker 4: about her convictions. So I'll just give you one example.

589
00:35:06,632 --> 00:35:09,192
Speaker 4: She had two appeals following her trial, the second of

590
00:35:09,192 --> 00:35:11,192
Speaker 4: which was in two thousand and seven, so she'd been

591
00:35:11,232 --> 00:35:15,352
Speaker 4: in prison for approximately four years. The second appeal came

592
00:35:15,471 --> 00:35:18,951
Speaker 4: up because during the trial, the line that she had

593
00:35:18,951 --> 00:35:21,392
Speaker 4: written in her diaries obviously I am my father's daughter

594
00:35:21,511 --> 00:35:24,272
Speaker 4: was ruled inadmissible, so that meant that it couldn't be

595
00:35:24,431 --> 00:35:27,111
Speaker 4: raised at all or mentioned in the trial. But when

596
00:35:27,152 --> 00:35:31,272
Speaker 4: Craig Folbig came to give evidence, he referred to this.

597
00:35:31,431 --> 00:35:34,792
Speaker 4: He referred to having found the diary and in it

598
00:35:34,872 --> 00:35:38,312
Speaker 4: was this entry referring to her father. Now, what then happened,

599
00:35:38,551 --> 00:35:41,352
Speaker 4: without anyone at the trial knowing, was that a member

600
00:35:41,352 --> 00:35:46,112
Speaker 4: of the jury went outside the court room and researched

601
00:35:46,632 --> 00:35:50,992
Speaker 4: Kathleen Folbig's father and found out what Thomas Britten, her father,

602
00:35:51,072 --> 00:35:54,832
Speaker 4: had done, and he took this knowledge back to the jury.

603
00:35:55,431 --> 00:35:58,191
Speaker 4: Now that must have had an enormous effect on the jury. Now,

604
00:35:58,192 --> 00:36:02,911
Speaker 4: in two thousand and seven, her legal team appealed against

605
00:36:02,951 --> 00:36:05,832
Speaker 4: her conviction. They wanted a retrial, essentially on the basis

606
00:36:06,312 --> 00:36:09,632
Speaker 4: that the trial was tainted by the jury's knowledge of

607
00:36:10,072 --> 00:36:13,991
Speaker 4: this line in her diary. The Crown argued at her

608
00:36:14,031 --> 00:36:18,031
Speaker 4: appeal that in fact, if he had taken this, which

609
00:36:18,031 --> 00:36:19,991
Speaker 4: he did, if he, if this jury member had taken

610
00:36:20,031 --> 00:36:22,431
Speaker 4: this back into the jury room, the jury would have

611
00:36:22,431 --> 00:36:25,752
Speaker 4: felt some sympathy for her. Now, in my opinion, this

612
00:36:25,872 --> 00:36:29,031
Speaker 4: was a crazy idea, because of course the opposite would

613
00:36:29,072 --> 00:36:30,991
Speaker 4: have been the case. They would have thought, ah, you know,

614
00:36:31,352 --> 00:36:33,712
Speaker 4: the reason she wrote that is because she killed the children.

615
00:36:34,511 --> 00:36:37,151
Speaker 4: So that appeal failed, and I think, I think it's

616
00:36:37,192 --> 00:36:39,911
Speaker 4: really interesting that the judges in that appeal turned it

617
00:36:39,991 --> 00:36:43,511
Speaker 4: down because there have been other examples since then where

618
00:36:43,592 --> 00:36:47,431
Speaker 4: jury members in other cases where jury members have gone

619
00:36:47,471 --> 00:36:50,712
Speaker 4: outside the court have researched something to do with the

620
00:36:50,752 --> 00:36:53,111
Speaker 4: case which they are not allowed to do, and come

621
00:36:53,152 --> 00:36:55,512
Speaker 4: back into the into the courtroom, and then those trials

622
00:36:55,551 --> 00:36:59,031
Speaker 4: have been you know, have been stopped. And there was

623
00:36:59,031 --> 00:37:02,792
Speaker 4: a very famous case recently. So that's one example of it.

624
00:37:02,832 --> 00:37:05,591
Speaker 4: But for me, the most striking example is actually the

625
00:37:05,632 --> 00:37:09,511
Speaker 4: first in the first judicial inquiry into her case in

626
00:37:09,551 --> 00:37:15,392
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, when the inquiry was presented with clear, fresh

627
00:37:15,592 --> 00:37:21,872
Speaker 4: genetic evidence that pointed to reasonable doubt surrounding the deaths

628
00:37:21,872 --> 00:37:25,711
Speaker 4: of Kathy's two daughters, Sarah and Laura, and the fact

629
00:37:25,792 --> 00:37:30,352
Speaker 4: that they both had a cardiac genetic mutation which was

630
00:37:31,031 --> 00:37:34,991
Speaker 4: likely pathogenic, and the judge who was in charge of

631
00:37:35,031 --> 00:37:39,991
Speaker 4: this inquiry, Justice Reginald Blanche, decided that but essentially that

632
00:37:40,112 --> 00:37:43,312
Speaker 4: evidence didn't hold. He preferred the evidence of other medical

633
00:37:43,312 --> 00:37:45,752
Speaker 4: witnesses who were saying, you know, we're not sure that

634
00:37:45,832 --> 00:37:49,352
Speaker 4: in a clinical environment that would you know, that would happen,

635
00:37:49,872 --> 00:37:52,591
Speaker 4: that it would actually be dangerous, And he actually came

636
00:37:52,632 --> 00:37:55,551
Speaker 4: back with a judgment that said that the evidence he

637
00:37:55,592 --> 00:38:00,192
Speaker 4: had heard reinforced Kathy's guilt. This was in twenty nineteen,

638
00:38:01,072 --> 00:38:03,951
Speaker 4: So I think this is a very long way of

639
00:38:04,152 --> 00:38:08,632
Speaker 4: coming back to answer your question as to why criminal

640
00:38:08,712 --> 00:38:13,192
Speaker 4: justice folk around Australia haven't learned the lessons of Linda Chamberlain. Well,

641
00:38:13,192 --> 00:38:15,711
Speaker 4: I think it's just I think it's just ingrained. I'm

642
00:38:15,752 --> 00:38:20,471
Speaker 4: afraid in some parts of the judicial hierarchy that you know,

643
00:38:21,312 --> 00:38:23,872
Speaker 4: you don't admit to your mistakes, you don't admit that

644
00:38:23,911 --> 00:38:26,232
Speaker 4: you got it wrong, and I think that's certainly the case.

645
00:38:26,551 --> 00:38:30,591
Speaker 1: It sounds like you agree with Tracy, who is Kathleen's

646
00:38:30,752 --> 00:38:34,111
Speaker 1: very good friend and advocate and who's essentially turned into

647
00:38:34,152 --> 00:38:37,232
Speaker 1: a lawyer and scientist in the process of freeing her friend.

648
00:38:37,632 --> 00:38:40,112
Speaker 1: But she did an interview where she said the criminal

649
00:38:40,232 --> 00:38:43,671
Speaker 1: justice system in Australia is adversarial and it's more about

650
00:38:43,672 --> 00:38:45,312
Speaker 1: who is right and who is wrong, and who wins

651
00:38:45,312 --> 00:38:47,991
Speaker 1: and who loses, rather than finding the truth. Would you

652
00:38:48,031 --> 00:38:48,671
Speaker 1: agree with that?

653
00:38:48,792 --> 00:38:51,591
Speaker 4: Well, I think certainly in Cathy's case it has been

654
00:38:51,872 --> 00:38:54,951
Speaker 4: absolutely I think you know as I say. I think

655
00:38:54,991 --> 00:38:59,832
Speaker 4: that in this first the first inquiry, her entire case

656
00:38:59,872 --> 00:39:03,472
Speaker 4: and the evidence surrounding her case should have been inquired into,

657
00:39:03,632 --> 00:39:07,431
Speaker 4: but instead of that, it was completely adversarial, and the

658
00:39:07,511 --> 00:39:11,232
Speaker 4: judge in charge of the inquiry, Reginald Blanche, invited Kathy

659
00:39:11,712 --> 00:39:15,992
Speaker 4: to come in and give evidence about her diaries. Now,

660
00:39:16,232 --> 00:39:22,112
Speaker 4: to any kind of reasonable objective person, I think you

661
00:39:22,152 --> 00:39:25,232
Speaker 4: would assume that when she came in from prison to

662
00:39:25,232 --> 00:39:30,111
Speaker 4: give evidence, that she would at least be treated, you know, politely,

663
00:39:31,192 --> 00:39:34,272
Speaker 4: and she would be invited to explain what she meant

664
00:39:34,551 --> 00:39:38,951
Speaker 4: by those diary entries, which appeared on the face of

665
00:39:38,951 --> 00:39:41,111
Speaker 4: it to be quite contentious and some of them may

666
00:39:41,152 --> 00:39:44,951
Speaker 4: be even quite troubling. But instead of that. For two

667
00:39:44,991 --> 00:39:50,151
Speaker 4: and a half days, she was brutally cross examined by

668
00:39:50,712 --> 00:39:54,872
Speaker 4: two Senior council and one of the senior Council, Margaret Kneen,

669
00:39:55,632 --> 00:39:58,712
Speaker 4: was there to represent the interests of her former husband,

670
00:39:58,911 --> 00:40:02,672
Speaker 4: Craig Folbig, but she went far beyond that. She didn't

671
00:40:02,712 --> 00:40:07,152
Speaker 4: just ask questions that related to his reputation, cross examined

672
00:40:07,192 --> 00:40:11,872
Speaker 4: her really, I think, quite brutally and disrespectfully, and you know,

673
00:40:12,072 --> 00:40:16,431
Speaker 4: use sarcasm in some of her questions and some of

674
00:40:16,471 --> 00:40:22,431
Speaker 4: her comments, and you know, multiple, multiple times Kathy was

675
00:40:22,551 --> 00:40:26,111
Speaker 4: challenged by the Senior Council to admit that she had

676
00:40:26,192 --> 00:40:29,711
Speaker 4: killed her children, and every single time, as she has

677
00:40:29,752 --> 00:40:34,511
Speaker 4: throughout this entire saga, she professed her innocence. She said, no,

678
00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:37,472
Speaker 4: that's not right. You know this, this diary entry doesn't

679
00:40:37,511 --> 00:40:41,111
Speaker 4: mean that I killed Sarah. So, you know, I think

680
00:40:41,112 --> 00:40:44,072
Speaker 4: there is a kind of I think the adversarial system,

681
00:40:44,551 --> 00:40:50,511
Speaker 4: certainly in the first inquiry, was deeply unhelpful, and it

682
00:40:50,551 --> 00:40:52,911
Speaker 4: was deeply unhelpful not just to Kathy, but it was

683
00:40:52,911 --> 00:40:56,991
Speaker 4: also deeply unhelpful to those scientific experts who came on

684
00:40:57,072 --> 00:41:00,832
Speaker 4: board voluntarily to give evidence and who were not treated

685
00:41:01,192 --> 00:41:04,511
Speaker 4: respectfully at all either, you know, they were treated as

686
00:41:04,511 --> 00:41:07,352
Speaker 4: if maybe they weren't really expert in in their field,

687
00:41:08,592 --> 00:41:11,632
Speaker 4: or they weren't expert in a clinical field for example,

688
00:41:11,672 --> 00:41:14,952
Speaker 4: and that happened to you know, a scientist called Professor

689
00:41:15,031 --> 00:41:18,151
Speaker 4: Corolla Vuisa, who in my eyes is really the kind

690
00:41:18,192 --> 00:41:21,832
Speaker 4: of scientific hero in this story. She was treated most

691
00:41:21,911 --> 00:41:25,951
Speaker 4: disrespectfully at the first inquiry, rather than simply being asked

692
00:41:25,991 --> 00:41:29,312
Speaker 4: to explain what she had discovered in relation to the

693
00:41:29,312 --> 00:41:33,991
Speaker 4: genetic mutation and what its implications were. Because the discovery

694
00:41:34,192 --> 00:41:39,192
Speaker 4: of the genetic mutation clearly raised doubt about how the

695
00:41:39,232 --> 00:41:42,072
Speaker 4: two daughters died, and that on its own, quite frankly,

696
00:41:42,072 --> 00:41:45,511
Speaker 4: in my opinion, should have been enough to refer the

697
00:41:45,551 --> 00:41:47,911
Speaker 4: case to the Court of Criminal Appeal, but that didn't happen.

698
00:41:48,872 --> 00:41:52,632
Speaker 1: Can we go back a little because in two thousand

699
00:41:52,672 --> 00:41:56,111
Speaker 1: and three was that when Kathleen was sentenced. She's sent

700
00:41:56,192 --> 00:42:00,751
Speaker 1: us to forty years behind bars, which is a very

701
00:42:00,752 --> 00:42:04,511
Speaker 1: big sentence. But then, as you mentioned, she's going into

702
00:42:04,551 --> 00:42:07,392
Speaker 1: prison as probably one of the most hate types of inmates.

703
00:42:07,471 --> 00:42:09,792
Speaker 1: The inmates who killed children or who hurt children are

704
00:42:09,792 --> 00:42:12,511
Speaker 1: considered the worst of the worst. So what is her

705
00:42:12,632 --> 00:42:15,712
Speaker 1: experience like in prison? Then from the beginning, which I

706
00:42:15,752 --> 00:42:17,752
Speaker 1: know evolved and changed over time, but at the very

707
00:42:17,792 --> 00:42:20,232
Speaker 1: beginning it must have been incredibly difficult for her.

708
00:42:21,312 --> 00:42:24,392
Speaker 4: Yes, I think it must have been unbearable. Quite frankly.

709
00:42:25,232 --> 00:42:27,951
Speaker 4: I think it must have been unbearable. Quite frankly. I think,

710
00:42:28,232 --> 00:42:32,512
Speaker 4: you know, she did have one person at her trial

711
00:42:33,152 --> 00:42:35,511
Speaker 4: who stood by her the whole time, and that was

712
00:42:35,511 --> 00:42:40,111
Speaker 4: his Salvation Army Major Joyce Harma, and you know, she

713
00:42:40,312 --> 00:42:42,312
Speaker 4: kind of helped to shield her from the media at

714
00:42:42,312 --> 00:42:44,151
Speaker 4: the trial when they were going to and from court

715
00:42:44,192 --> 00:42:46,872
Speaker 4: and so on. And then when Kathy was sentenced, as

716
00:42:46,872 --> 00:42:50,192
Speaker 4: you say, to forty years, which was thank god, you know,

717
00:42:50,272 --> 00:42:53,792
Speaker 4: reduced later at the first appeal to thirty years, but

718
00:42:53,832 --> 00:42:57,112
Speaker 4: it was still a twenty five year non parole period.

719
00:42:57,392 --> 00:43:00,392
Speaker 4: But Joyce would visit her in prison, and I think

720
00:43:00,392 --> 00:43:02,511
Speaker 4: that was a great comfort to her. But essentially she

721
00:43:02,592 --> 00:43:07,352
Speaker 4: was in isolation because the danger of you know, being

722
00:43:07,392 --> 00:43:12,872
Speaker 4: bashed or literally being killed by other inmates, I think

723
00:43:12,991 --> 00:43:15,431
Speaker 4: was very high, and of course it must have been

724
00:43:15,592 --> 00:43:19,392
Speaker 4: an incredibly isolating experience for her. I mean, here she was,

725
00:43:20,392 --> 00:43:23,751
Speaker 4: you know, she was an innocent woman who had been

726
00:43:23,911 --> 00:43:27,752
Speaker 4: convicted of the most heinous crimes. Possible and convicted as

727
00:43:27,792 --> 00:43:30,752
Speaker 4: you say, and sentenced, as you say, to forty years

728
00:43:30,792 --> 00:43:34,272
Speaker 4: in prison. And she was taken to this women's prison

729
00:43:34,592 --> 00:43:37,272
Speaker 4: where she was just regarded as the lowest of the low.

730
00:43:37,911 --> 00:43:39,511
Speaker 4: And I think she was afraid that she would be

731
00:43:39,592 --> 00:43:42,071
Speaker 4: kind of poisoned, you know, her food would be poisoned.

732
00:43:43,272 --> 00:43:45,272
Speaker 4: She was afraid that she might be bashed, and she

733
00:43:45,392 --> 00:43:48,551
Speaker 4: was bashed on occasion, at least a couple of times

734
00:43:48,632 --> 00:43:52,392
Speaker 4: during her time in prison, she was bashed by other inmates.

735
00:43:53,031 --> 00:43:55,992
Speaker 4: One has to say, in tribute to the prison staff,

736
00:43:56,031 --> 00:43:59,432
Speaker 4: I think they try to ensure that from a medical

737
00:43:59,471 --> 00:44:02,551
Speaker 4: point of view, she was kind of closely monitored and

738
00:44:02,592 --> 00:44:05,872
Speaker 4: so on. And it's interesting that by the time I

739
00:44:05,951 --> 00:44:11,551
Speaker 4: produce an Australian story in twenty eighteen which questioned her

740
00:44:11,551 --> 00:44:15,991
Speaker 4: guilt and actually pointed to real doubt over her convictions,

741
00:44:16,392 --> 00:44:19,672
Speaker 4: we went to film outside a prison and I spoke

742
00:44:19,792 --> 00:44:23,112
Speaker 4: to one of the prison staff who was escorting us around,

743
00:44:23,152 --> 00:44:24,712
Speaker 4: and I said, what do you think and what do

744
00:44:24,752 --> 00:44:27,511
Speaker 4: the staff here think? And he said, well, you know,

745
00:44:28,192 --> 00:44:31,951
Speaker 4: we all believe she's innocent. So I think that's very interesting.

746
00:44:32,031 --> 00:44:36,512
Speaker 4: And I think eventually after the media started to change

747
00:44:36,511 --> 00:44:42,112
Speaker 4: its tune and started to raise absolutely valid questions about

748
00:44:42,152 --> 00:44:45,872
Speaker 4: her guilt. I think at that point finally the inmates

749
00:44:45,872 --> 00:44:50,591
Speaker 4: in the various institutions where she was incarcerated began to

750
00:44:50,632 --> 00:44:53,791
Speaker 4: see a different side to her story. And I think

751
00:44:54,192 --> 00:44:58,192
Speaker 4: by the time of there were two petitions on her behalf,

752
00:44:58,192 --> 00:45:00,392
Speaker 4: and by the time of the second petition, which was

753
00:45:00,392 --> 00:45:05,472
Speaker 4: an extraordinary petition signed by two Nobel laureates and ninety

754
00:45:05,632 --> 00:45:08,872
Speaker 4: scientists and science advocates calling for her pardon and release,

755
00:45:09,152 --> 00:45:12,151
Speaker 4: I think once that happened, she was kind of in

756
00:45:12,192 --> 00:45:15,511
Speaker 4: the clear, if you like, inside the prison walls as

757
00:45:15,551 --> 00:45:17,712
Speaker 4: far as the inmates were concerned, and probably as far

758
00:45:17,752 --> 00:45:19,631
Speaker 4: as the staff were concerned as well. So by that

759
00:45:19,672 --> 00:45:23,832
Speaker 4: point it was I mean, she was still incarcerated, you know,

760
00:45:23,991 --> 00:45:25,951
Speaker 4: but it was at least at that point it was

761
00:45:26,072 --> 00:45:29,711
Speaker 4: very very clear, I think, to everyone that there were

762
00:45:29,752 --> 00:45:32,551
Speaker 4: real questions surrounding her guilt and that something had to

763
00:45:32,551 --> 00:45:33,592
Speaker 4: be done on her behalf.

764
00:45:35,911 --> 00:45:38,872
Speaker 1: After the break, what happened on the day that Kathleen

765
00:45:39,152 --> 00:45:44,232
Speaker 1: was finally released from jail stay with us. I'd love

766
00:45:44,272 --> 00:45:47,632
Speaker 1: to get your theory on why Kathleen Folbig was released

767
00:45:47,632 --> 00:45:50,272
Speaker 1: so quickly, Like it was less than an hour. She

768
00:45:50,312 --> 00:45:52,471
Speaker 1: got up that morning, not realizing today would be the

769
00:45:52,551 --> 00:45:54,911
Speaker 1: day I'm out of jail. Her lawyer didn't know what

770
00:45:54,951 --> 00:45:56,911
Speaker 1: was happening. Her friend Tracy, who's been by her side

771
00:45:56,911 --> 00:45:58,151
Speaker 1: the whole time, I had no idea what was going

772
00:45:58,192 --> 00:46:00,671
Speaker 1: to happen that day. She literally wakes up, goes about

773
00:46:00,672 --> 00:46:02,872
Speaker 1: her business. Someone comes in and says, pack you'r stuff,

774
00:46:02,872 --> 00:46:05,591
Speaker 1: you're leaving, and then she's kind of shuffled out the door.

775
00:46:05,632 --> 00:46:08,912
Speaker 1: And that whole process took less than an hour. What's

776
00:46:08,951 --> 00:46:11,832
Speaker 1: your theory as to why that was done so quickly?

777
00:46:11,911 --> 00:46:13,792
Speaker 1: Was it to keep her out of the spotlight? Was

778
00:46:13,832 --> 00:46:17,192
Speaker 1: it a political thing? Like why did that happen so fast?

779
00:46:17,551 --> 00:46:19,751
Speaker 4: Well, can I take a step back if I may,

780
00:46:19,832 --> 00:46:22,111
Speaker 4: and then I'll absolutely tell you what I think about that.

781
00:46:22,152 --> 00:46:25,392
Speaker 4: So to take a step back, I think politics definitely

782
00:46:25,431 --> 00:46:30,071
Speaker 4: came into the whole question of what was going to

783
00:46:30,112 --> 00:46:37,192
Speaker 4: happen once medical experts, scientists and others had raised questions

784
00:46:37,232 --> 00:46:40,751
Speaker 4: about her guilt. And I think it's very interesting that

785
00:46:41,431 --> 00:46:46,312
Speaker 4: Mark Speakman, who was previously Attorney General of New South Wales,

786
00:46:47,031 --> 00:46:51,392
Speaker 4: when he announced a second inquiry, he did so in

787
00:46:51,431 --> 00:46:54,152
Speaker 4: the knowledge. This must have been in the knowledge that

788
00:46:54,272 --> 00:46:56,752
Speaker 4: if she was cleared by the inquiry, or if the

789
00:46:56,792 --> 00:46:59,232
Speaker 4: inquiries proposed that her case go to the Court of

790
00:46:59,232 --> 00:47:03,191
Speaker 4: Criminal Appeal, that that announcement and any announcement of her

791
00:47:03,272 --> 00:47:06,992
Speaker 4: pardon and release would be made by the next state

792
00:47:07,232 --> 00:47:11,431
Speaker 4: government's attorney general. And indeed that's what happened. So the

793
00:47:11,471 --> 00:47:15,152
Speaker 4: next state government, he was a you know, coalition liberal

794
00:47:15,872 --> 00:47:19,712
Speaker 4: attorney General. Michael Day, who was the Labor Attorney General

795
00:47:19,712 --> 00:47:21,471
Speaker 4: who came in after him, was the one who was

796
00:47:21,592 --> 00:47:25,471
Speaker 4: tasked with actually saying, okay, I've ordered you know, or

797
00:47:25,471 --> 00:47:27,312
Speaker 4: the governor, the Governor of New South Wales and my

798
00:47:27,392 --> 00:47:31,671
Speaker 4: recommendation has ordered that she'd be pardoned and released. And

799
00:47:31,951 --> 00:47:33,991
Speaker 4: you know, there were several points in fact, during the

800
00:47:33,991 --> 00:47:37,991
Speaker 4: first inquiry and the second inquiry where Senior Council were

801
00:47:38,031 --> 00:47:42,471
Speaker 4: making it clear that any delays that occurred in those

802
00:47:42,511 --> 00:47:46,911
Speaker 4: inquiries unfolding, that they could be to her disadvantage, to

803
00:47:46,991 --> 00:47:50,191
Speaker 4: Kathy's disadvantage, because you know, if she was found at

804
00:47:50,192 --> 00:47:53,312
Speaker 4: the end of all of it to be worthy of

805
00:47:53,551 --> 00:47:56,992
Speaker 4: you release, then the longer it was delayed, the worse

806
00:47:57,031 --> 00:48:00,751
Speaker 4: it would be. So what happened in twenty twenty three

807
00:48:02,471 --> 00:48:04,272
Speaker 4: was that right at the end of the hearings of

808
00:48:04,312 --> 00:48:09,231
Speaker 4: the second inquiry, Tom Baffurst, who was the former Chief

809
00:48:09,312 --> 00:48:12,352
Speaker 4: Judge who was in charge of the inquiry, he declared

810
00:48:12,872 --> 00:48:16,192
Speaker 4: that in his view, there was enough evidence to suggest

811
00:48:16,192 --> 00:48:19,352
Speaker 4: reasonable doubt in her case. The problem then was that

812
00:48:19,392 --> 00:48:23,151
Speaker 4: he had to write a report on the entire inquiry,

813
00:48:23,352 --> 00:48:27,431
Speaker 4: giving his reasons and everything else, and that, as it

814
00:48:27,471 --> 00:48:29,392
Speaker 4: turned out, and he knew this at the time, Everyone

815
00:48:29,712 --> 00:48:31,471
Speaker 4: knew this at the time, was going to take months

816
00:48:31,471 --> 00:48:34,232
Speaker 4: and months and months. So the question was, you know

817
00:48:34,352 --> 00:48:38,511
Speaker 4: what happens to Cathy. You know, is the Attorney General

818
00:48:38,551 --> 00:48:42,552
Speaker 4: Michael Daily going to wait for Tom Bafferst to hand

819
00:48:42,551 --> 00:48:44,511
Speaker 4: down his report, in which case he's going to be

820
00:48:44,511 --> 00:48:47,832
Speaker 4: behind bars, probably for at least another six months, or

821
00:48:48,471 --> 00:48:51,752
Speaker 4: can he release her now? So what Tom Bathurst did,

822
00:48:51,792 --> 00:48:55,512
Speaker 4: which I think was fantastic, was he wrote a memorandum

823
00:48:55,672 --> 00:49:00,471
Speaker 4: summarizing his reasons why and his conclusions, saying, you know,

824
00:49:01,072 --> 00:49:04,431
Speaker 4: the children died from natural causes and you know this

825
00:49:04,551 --> 00:49:06,832
Speaker 4: is going to be my recommendation in my full report,

826
00:49:07,551 --> 00:49:10,471
Speaker 4: sent that to Michael Daily, and Michael Daily then had

827
00:49:10,471 --> 00:49:15,312
Speaker 4: no choice but to arrange for her to be released immediately.

828
00:49:15,991 --> 00:49:18,832
Speaker 4: But what is also interesting is is that kind of

829
00:49:18,911 --> 00:49:22,471
Speaker 4: leading up to this, Tracy Chapman and others had been

830
00:49:22,752 --> 00:49:25,792
Speaker 4: kind of lobbying furiously for her to be released. So

831
00:49:25,832 --> 00:49:29,392
Speaker 4: I think there was an enormous pressure on Michael Daily,

832
00:49:29,471 --> 00:49:33,031
Speaker 4: the Attorney General, to actually act quickly, and so so

833
00:49:33,152 --> 00:49:36,272
Speaker 4: he obviously, you know, he did that, and as you say,

834
00:49:36,352 --> 00:49:38,832
Speaker 4: she was released kind of within an hour, and without

835
00:49:38,911 --> 00:49:41,071
Speaker 4: even knowing that was going to happen earlier that day.

836
00:49:41,592 --> 00:49:44,072
Speaker 4: I don't think there was any kind of sinister reason

837
00:49:44,312 --> 00:49:47,312
Speaker 4: behind the speed, to be frank, I think at the

838
00:49:47,392 --> 00:49:52,191
Speaker 4: end of the day, Michael Daily quite quite rightly decided that,

839
00:49:52,392 --> 00:49:58,071
Speaker 4: you know, having received this recommendation from Tom Bathurst, and

840
00:49:58,152 --> 00:50:00,672
Speaker 4: having made the recommendation to the Governor of New South Wales,

841
00:50:01,031 --> 00:50:04,591
Speaker 4: that she should indeed be pardoned and released, and given

842
00:50:04,632 --> 00:50:06,832
Speaker 4: how long she'd been in prison, that that had to

843
00:50:06,832 --> 00:50:08,792
Speaker 4: happen very speedily, and so that's what occurred.

844
00:50:09,712 --> 00:50:13,111
Speaker 1: John, I think is quite shocking when you aren't in

845
00:50:13,152 --> 00:50:17,631
Speaker 1: your world, so you had spoken to Kathleen, you knew her,

846
00:50:17,672 --> 00:50:21,192
Speaker 1: people like you were involved in her story by this stage.

847
00:50:21,232 --> 00:50:22,792
Speaker 1: But when she was released, I think for many of

848
00:50:22,872 --> 00:50:25,511
Speaker 1: us who hadn't seen her in a long time, we

849
00:50:25,511 --> 00:50:27,991
Speaker 1: were stunned. At how young she still is, and I

850
00:50:27,991 --> 00:50:31,192
Speaker 1: think we forget that everything that happened to her, both

851
00:50:31,232 --> 00:50:34,792
Speaker 1: the tragedy or all of the tragedy, from her mother's murder,

852
00:50:34,991 --> 00:50:37,911
Speaker 1: through her losing her four children, through all these trials

853
00:50:38,272 --> 00:50:41,231
Speaker 1: and prison life, all of this happened to a very

854
00:50:41,312 --> 00:50:42,072
Speaker 1: very young woman.

855
00:50:43,232 --> 00:50:47,071
Speaker 4: Yes, that's absolutely right, And so following on from that,

856
00:50:47,112 --> 00:50:49,312
Speaker 4: of course, the tragedy is that, you know, she lost

857
00:50:49,352 --> 00:50:53,792
Speaker 4: the best, arguably the best years of her adult life

858
00:50:53,991 --> 00:50:57,872
Speaker 4: behind bars, you know, after being incarcerated. But you're right,

859
00:50:58,112 --> 00:51:02,191
Speaker 4: you know, she had this incredibly tragic, very early childhood,

860
00:51:02,712 --> 00:51:05,392
Speaker 4: and then she had this very difficult, in my opinion,

861
00:51:05,551 --> 00:51:09,632
Speaker 4: very difficult upbringing in quite a dysfunctional family. She married,

862
00:51:10,072 --> 00:51:13,551
Speaker 4: she fell in love and married very young, had the

863
00:51:13,592 --> 00:51:18,911
Speaker 4: four children, each of whom died suddenly and unexpectedly and tragically,

864
00:51:19,431 --> 00:51:21,911
Speaker 4: and then she went through this ordeal, you know, from

865
00:51:21,991 --> 00:51:25,832
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine when Laura died, until two thousand and three,

866
00:51:25,872 --> 00:51:29,231
Speaker 4: so four years where the police were kind of digging

867
00:51:29,312 --> 00:51:32,591
Speaker 4: and digging and digging, you know, and the prosecution was deciding, yeah, well,

868
00:51:32,632 --> 00:51:33,991
Speaker 4: I think, well, you know, we'll try and do it

869
00:51:34,031 --> 00:51:36,872
Speaker 4: this way. And it could all have been so different

870
00:51:37,632 --> 00:51:43,072
Speaker 4: because there was another case in Victoria several years later

871
00:51:43,592 --> 00:51:47,551
Speaker 4: of a woman called Carol Matthew who was charged with

872
00:51:47,951 --> 00:51:53,471
Speaker 4: murdering four of her five children. And this case came

873
00:51:53,471 --> 00:51:57,192
Speaker 4: to a preliminary hearing in Victoria and the judge at

874
00:51:57,192 --> 00:52:00,551
Speaker 4: that hearing basically threw the case out. I mean, he

875
00:52:00,672 --> 00:52:05,591
Speaker 4: ruled most of the prosecution's evidence as being inadmissible, and

876
00:52:05,632 --> 00:52:09,031
Speaker 4: the prosecution the end of that decided. And this was

877
00:52:09,072 --> 00:52:14,072
Speaker 4: a case where the prosecution had asked most of several

878
00:52:14,152 --> 00:52:17,552
Speaker 4: of the same medical experts who appeared at Cathy's trial

879
00:52:17,872 --> 00:52:20,392
Speaker 4: to appear at Carol Mathey's trial if it was going

880
00:52:20,431 --> 00:52:23,232
Speaker 4: to take place, so they were using the same experts,

881
00:52:23,232 --> 00:52:27,511
Speaker 4: and this Victorian judge, to his credit, said no, you know,

882
00:52:27,551 --> 00:52:30,071
Speaker 4: there's just not enough here. He ruled most of the

883
00:52:30,112 --> 00:52:34,392
Speaker 4: evidence in admissible and she was released. Now, if that

884
00:52:34,592 --> 00:52:37,911
Speaker 4: judge had been the judge at Cathy's trial, maybe she

885
00:52:37,911 --> 00:52:40,832
Speaker 4: wouldn't have lost the next twenty years of her life.

886
00:52:41,192 --> 00:52:45,032
Speaker 4: Or if tragically her children had died in Victoria, maybe

887
00:52:45,031 --> 00:52:47,192
Speaker 4: she wouldn't have lost the next twenty years of her life.

888
00:52:48,112 --> 00:52:52,111
Speaker 4: So I do think that that Kathy was uniquely unlucky

889
00:52:53,272 --> 00:52:57,591
Speaker 4: in you know, the location of this investigation and prosecution,

890
00:52:58,872 --> 00:53:02,272
Speaker 4: and also, maybe more more importantly in the fact that

891
00:53:02,312 --> 00:53:07,111
Speaker 4: Sally Clark had already been acquitted and then in the

892
00:53:07,192 --> 00:53:11,352
Speaker 4: first year following Kathy's convictions, there were at least three

893
00:53:11,392 --> 00:53:15,951
Speaker 4: other women in the UK who had been convicted off

894
00:53:15,991 --> 00:53:19,672
Speaker 4: the back of Meadows Law who were then acquitted on appeal.

895
00:53:20,511 --> 00:53:23,272
Speaker 1: What does Kathy's life look like now. I know that

896
00:53:24,072 --> 00:53:25,991
Speaker 1: she's mentioned that she's copped a bit of flak for

897
00:53:26,031 --> 00:53:28,752
Speaker 1: selling her story, which is really interesting because I was

898
00:53:28,792 --> 00:53:31,631
Speaker 1: reading in your book how Michael Craig's brother had at

899
00:53:31,672 --> 00:53:35,872
Speaker 1: one stage tried to cash in on this by opening

900
00:53:35,911 --> 00:53:38,471
Speaker 1: up bids to the media to buy photos of the

901
00:53:38,551 --> 00:53:42,152
Speaker 1: children during the trial, and then offering up Craig's story

902
00:53:42,192 --> 00:53:44,352
Speaker 1: for a fee too. So it's interesting that this has

903
00:53:44,392 --> 00:53:47,512
Speaker 1: now come back on Kathy and not Craig and Michael

904
00:53:47,551 --> 00:53:51,511
Speaker 1: at the time. But she is, you know, talking a

905
00:53:51,551 --> 00:53:54,951
Speaker 1: lot about what happened to her and hoping that this

906
00:53:55,031 --> 00:53:59,071
Speaker 1: doesn't happen to anyone else again. But I guess for

907
00:53:59,192 --> 00:54:01,792
Speaker 1: her like this is the only way she can make

908
00:54:01,832 --> 00:54:04,832
Speaker 1: money at this stage, she's fresh out of jail. Her basically,

909
00:54:04,832 --> 00:54:07,112
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, entire adult life is behind bars.

910
00:54:07,511 --> 00:54:09,191
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it needs to be noted that

911
00:54:09,232 --> 00:54:12,911
Speaker 4: at her trial, although Michael, as you say, appeared to

912
00:54:12,951 --> 00:54:16,352
Speaker 4: be suggesting that the media should bid for these photos

913
00:54:16,352 --> 00:54:18,671
Speaker 4: of the children, that was kind of withdrawn later on

914
00:54:18,911 --> 00:54:22,712
Speaker 4: and the photos were kind of handed out. But the

915
00:54:22,752 --> 00:54:27,551
Speaker 4: facts of the matter of these that when Kathy was convicted,

916
00:54:27,632 --> 00:54:31,151
Speaker 4: she lost everything from a kind of financial point of view.

917
00:54:31,192 --> 00:54:36,152
Speaker 4: She lost her home, basically everything went to her then husband, Craig,

918
00:54:36,592 --> 00:54:40,232
Speaker 4: And indeed Craig was awarded a kind of victim's payment

919
00:54:40,352 --> 00:54:43,631
Speaker 4: or payments for the deaths of the children. He was

920
00:54:44,592 --> 00:54:46,712
Speaker 4: judged to be the victim in all this, which is

921
00:54:46,752 --> 00:54:50,591
Speaker 4: quite ironic in the light of what occurred after that,

922
00:54:50,672 --> 00:54:54,111
Speaker 4: because clearly Kathy herself was the main the chief victim.

923
00:54:54,431 --> 00:54:57,991
Speaker 4: So when she emerged from prison in June twenty twenty three,

924
00:54:58,511 --> 00:55:02,031
Speaker 4: Kathy didn't have a single cent to her name. I mean,

925
00:55:02,072 --> 00:55:05,832
Speaker 4: she was completely kind of poverty stricken. So Tracy Chapman,

926
00:55:06,352 --> 00:55:12,392
Speaker 4: who is a wonderful, wonderful person, incredibly generous, incredibly loyal,

927
00:55:12,951 --> 00:55:16,592
Speaker 4: and you know who, like Kathy herself, has shown unending

928
00:55:16,752 --> 00:55:18,872
Speaker 4: stubbornness and persistence.

929
00:55:19,031 --> 00:55:21,111
Speaker 1: This is someone she met in primary school, right, So

930
00:55:21,152 --> 00:55:22,752
Speaker 1: that is a lifelong friendship.

931
00:55:22,792 --> 00:55:25,832
Speaker 4: That's right, it's a lifelong friendship. And there are other

932
00:55:26,272 --> 00:55:29,071
Speaker 4: very close friends of hers at Megan for example, who

933
00:55:29,112 --> 00:55:31,392
Speaker 4: she met in primary school as well. But the point

934
00:55:31,431 --> 00:55:33,991
Speaker 4: here is that, well, actually there are two points. If

935
00:55:33,991 --> 00:55:38,752
Speaker 4: she hadn't had these incredible friends around her, arguably she

936
00:55:38,832 --> 00:55:41,872
Speaker 4: might not have survived her incarceration. But she did. And

937
00:55:42,312 --> 00:55:44,752
Speaker 4: you know, Tracy Chapman would ring her every day, go

938
00:55:44,792 --> 00:55:46,712
Speaker 4: and visit her, and so on and so forth. She

939
00:55:46,752 --> 00:55:49,712
Speaker 4: would ring Tracy. But when she emerged from prison in

940
00:55:49,792 --> 00:55:52,752
Speaker 4: June twenty twenty three, she did so without assent to

941
00:55:52,792 --> 00:55:55,911
Speaker 4: her name. So Tracy Chapman put her up at her

942
00:55:55,991 --> 00:56:00,031
Speaker 4: farm for a while. And yes, you know she has

943
00:56:00,031 --> 00:56:03,151
Speaker 4: an agent. Kathy has an agent who was acquired for her,

944
00:56:03,192 --> 00:56:07,872
Speaker 4: not by herself, but by the team known as Team Folbeg,

945
00:56:08,712 --> 00:56:11,071
Speaker 4: who were looking out for her and wanted to ensure

946
00:56:11,632 --> 00:56:15,392
Speaker 4: that she would emerge from prison able to actually live

947
00:56:15,431 --> 00:56:18,551
Speaker 4: a life and pay for all the necessities of life

948
00:56:18,632 --> 00:56:22,792
Speaker 4: that she would need. So yes, she was paid a

949
00:56:22,832 --> 00:56:25,471
Speaker 4: sum of money for an exclusive interview that she gave

950
00:56:25,511 --> 00:56:29,192
Speaker 4: to Channel seven. And I don't see how anyone can

951
00:56:29,632 --> 00:56:33,872
Speaker 4: object to that. Quite frankly, the real disaster here, in

952
00:56:33,911 --> 00:56:35,792
Speaker 4: my opinion, and this goes back to the way in

953
00:56:35,832 --> 00:56:38,752
Speaker 4: which the criminal justice system in New South Wales has behaved.

954
00:56:39,352 --> 00:56:44,712
Speaker 4: The real disaster is that even after her convictions were

955
00:56:44,752 --> 00:56:48,431
Speaker 4: quashed in December twenty twenty three and verdicts of acquittal

956
00:56:49,112 --> 00:56:53,551
Speaker 4: were entered against all of the charges against her, no

957
00:56:53,592 --> 00:56:56,951
Speaker 4: one in the criminal justice system, in the judicial hierarchy

958
00:56:56,951 --> 00:57:02,472
Speaker 4: has offered an apology to her for what occurred. And

959
00:57:02,511 --> 00:57:07,752
Speaker 4: even now, even now, more than what a like fifteen

960
00:57:07,792 --> 00:57:12,192
Speaker 4: eighteen months later, she is still awaiting an offer of

961
00:57:12,272 --> 00:57:15,112
Speaker 4: compensation from the State of New South Wales.

962
00:57:15,592 --> 00:57:17,912
Speaker 1: You might know better than those of us looking in

963
00:57:17,952 --> 00:57:19,832
Speaker 1: on this from the outside, as a woman who has

964
00:57:19,872 --> 00:57:25,592
Speaker 1: suffered unimaginably in her time, you know, from her childhood

965
00:57:25,832 --> 00:57:29,232
Speaker 1: to losing four children, which you know could have been

966
00:57:29,232 --> 00:57:32,631
Speaker 1: the end of anybody. That is in itself the most

967
00:57:32,632 --> 00:57:35,832
Speaker 1: heartbreaking and terrible thing that any mother could face at

968
00:57:35,872 --> 00:57:38,711
Speaker 1: any stage of life. To then go through what she's

969
00:57:38,752 --> 00:57:41,872
Speaker 1: gone through, she seems like a very pragmatic woman like

970
00:57:41,912 --> 00:57:44,632
Speaker 1: she you know, in the face of adversity, she seems

971
00:57:44,672 --> 00:57:46,832
Speaker 1: to pick herself up and just kind of march on forward.

972
00:57:47,912 --> 00:57:51,592
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine that that doesn't leave you with

973
00:57:52,272 --> 00:57:56,072
Speaker 1: you know, PTSD or some kind of mental health issue

974
00:57:56,112 --> 00:57:58,432
Speaker 1: after all that she has faced, Like how is she

975
00:57:58,512 --> 00:58:01,352
Speaker 1: coping out in the real world trying to put this

976
00:58:01,392 --> 00:58:01,992
Speaker 1: behind her.

977
00:58:02,952 --> 00:58:06,032
Speaker 4: You raise a really really important point, and my answer

978
00:58:06,072 --> 00:58:07,912
Speaker 4: to that would be this that I think it's clear

979
00:58:08,112 --> 00:58:14,512
Speaker 4: that from her very earliest life she acquired the ability,

980
00:58:14,552 --> 00:58:18,152
Speaker 4: if you like, to kind of keep her emotions wrapped

981
00:58:18,232 --> 00:58:22,672
Speaker 4: up inside and to kind of move on and be pragmatic.

982
00:58:22,752 --> 00:58:24,312
Speaker 4: I mean, she had to deal, as I say, with

983
00:58:24,432 --> 00:58:29,632
Speaker 4: you know, being being, if you like, abandoned in reality

984
00:58:29,832 --> 00:58:32,392
Speaker 4: by her biological father and mother because her father had

985
00:58:32,432 --> 00:58:35,152
Speaker 4: killed her mother, and then he was sent to prison,

986
00:58:35,552 --> 00:58:38,912
Speaker 4: and then he was kind of deported overseas back to

987
00:58:38,952 --> 00:58:41,832
Speaker 4: Wales where he came from, so she never saw him again,

988
00:58:42,312 --> 00:58:45,472
Speaker 4: and then you know, living in children's homes and then

989
00:58:45,512 --> 00:58:48,352
Speaker 4: in the foster family. So I think she acquired an

990
00:58:48,352 --> 00:58:51,192
Speaker 4: ability to kind of hold her emotions in. That's the

991
00:58:51,232 --> 00:58:53,552
Speaker 4: first thing, but also to kind of I think it

992
00:58:53,632 --> 00:58:56,472
Speaker 4: toughened her probably in terms of, you know, whenever something

993
00:58:56,512 --> 00:58:59,631
Speaker 4: bad would happen, she acquired the ability to kind of

994
00:58:59,632 --> 00:59:01,792
Speaker 4: deal with it and move on, and as you say,

995
00:59:02,072 --> 00:59:05,432
Speaker 4: to become very pragmatic. But you are also right that,

996
00:59:05,552 --> 00:59:09,592
Speaker 4: of course the deaths of her four children profoundly traumatized her,

997
00:59:10,432 --> 00:59:14,472
Speaker 4: as they would any mother. And indeed, in twenty nineteen,

998
00:59:15,112 --> 00:59:19,712
Speaker 4: Michael Diamond, a psychiatrist who examined her, concluded that she

999
00:59:19,832 --> 00:59:23,632
Speaker 4: was suffering from complex post traumatic stress disorder. This was

1000
00:59:23,672 --> 00:59:26,392
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, very recently. What you also have to

1001
00:59:26,432 --> 00:59:28,672
Speaker 4: take into account is that when she was behind bars,

1002
00:59:29,272 --> 00:59:31,952
Speaker 4: you know, it's not the ideal environment in which to

1003
00:59:32,752 --> 00:59:35,832
Speaker 4: deal with your grief over the loss of four children,

1004
00:59:35,872 --> 00:59:40,752
Speaker 4: and particularly if the environment is perceived as being antagonistic

1005
00:59:40,832 --> 00:59:45,192
Speaker 4: towards you. And so I think, yes, you know, I

1006
00:59:45,232 --> 00:59:49,792
Speaker 4: can't imagine that she won't be processing her grief and

1007
00:59:49,832 --> 00:59:52,912
Speaker 4: her trauma for the rest of her life. But what

1008
00:59:52,992 --> 00:59:55,392
Speaker 4: she does have, which is amazing, is she has an

1009
00:59:55,432 --> 01:00:00,632
Speaker 4: incredibly close circle of friends who kind of surround her metaphorically,

1010
01:00:00,992 --> 01:00:02,992
Speaker 4: who are in touch with her, you know, every day.

1011
01:00:03,872 --> 01:00:06,152
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, she's appeared at one or

1012
01:00:06,192 --> 01:00:09,352
Speaker 4: TiO to public events since her release, where she's been

1013
01:00:10,912 --> 01:00:15,192
Speaker 4: almost unbelievably I think, kind of Carmen cool, Carmen collected,

1014
01:00:15,912 --> 01:00:19,192
Speaker 4: and she's you know, extremely articulate when she talks about

1015
01:00:19,192 --> 01:00:22,352
Speaker 4: her story, and she's very much focused as well on,

1016
01:00:23,152 --> 01:00:26,312
Speaker 4: you know, the law and the justice system kind of

1017
01:00:26,352 --> 01:00:29,992
Speaker 4: setting things right for other women who might find themselves

1018
01:00:30,032 --> 01:00:33,272
Speaker 4: in this position. And one of the key things that

1019
01:00:33,312 --> 01:00:36,072
Speaker 4: she and others, Tracy Chapman and others have kind of

1020
01:00:36,792 --> 01:00:42,432
Speaker 4: argued for is the introduction of an entirely independent, well

1021
01:00:42,472 --> 01:00:47,032
Speaker 4: resourced body such as they have in the UK, in

1022
01:00:47,072 --> 01:00:50,832
Speaker 4: New Zealand and elsewhere, known as a Criminal Cases Review Commission,

1023
01:00:52,112 --> 01:00:55,671
Speaker 4: because you know, in Sally Clark's case, for example, and

1024
01:00:55,712 --> 01:00:58,912
Speaker 4: in multiple other cases of these mothers who were wrongly

1025
01:00:58,912 --> 01:01:01,392
Speaker 4: convicted in the UK, their cases were some of their

1026
01:01:01,432 --> 01:01:04,632
Speaker 4: cases were reviewed in the UK to a Criminal Cases

1027
01:01:04,672 --> 01:01:08,792
Speaker 4: Review Commission, which, being in highly independent of government, was

1028
01:01:08,832 --> 01:01:12,912
Speaker 4: able to come back and say, well, yes, potentially a

1029
01:01:13,032 --> 01:01:17,672
Speaker 4: terrible mischaracter justice has eventuated here, and then to refer

1030
01:01:17,712 --> 01:01:21,751
Speaker 4: it to the courts of appeal in the UK. Now Here,

1031
01:01:21,752 --> 01:01:25,151
Speaker 4: in New South Wales, what has happened is that these

1032
01:01:25,192 --> 01:01:30,072
Speaker 4: petitions which were lodged on her behalf were only considered

1033
01:01:30,112 --> 01:01:33,312
Speaker 4: by the Attorneys General of New South Wales who are

1034
01:01:33,312 --> 01:01:37,592
Speaker 4: politically appointed, and so the problem there, in my opinion

1035
01:01:37,632 --> 01:01:40,672
Speaker 4: and in the opinion of others is that this is

1036
01:01:40,712 --> 01:01:44,152
Speaker 4: not a fair or just way to deal with cases

1037
01:01:44,152 --> 01:01:48,032
Speaker 4: of this kind where self evidently you know there are

1038
01:01:48,112 --> 01:01:50,112
Speaker 4: questions being raised about a person's guilt.

1039
01:01:51,072 --> 01:01:54,552
Speaker 1: So Kathleen fhear a big story maybe not over just yet,

1040
01:01:54,712 --> 01:01:56,632
Speaker 1: there might be a little bit more still to come.

1041
01:01:56,912 --> 01:02:01,432
Speaker 4: We think, we hope, well absolutely, I mean what I

1042
01:02:01,472 --> 01:02:05,112
Speaker 4: hope for for her, and obviously what everyone hopes for her,

1043
01:02:05,192 --> 01:02:09,472
Speaker 4: I think is for her to be awarded substantial compensation

1044
01:02:10,672 --> 01:02:15,352
Speaker 4: and equally importantly for her to be offered an absolutely heartfelt,

1045
01:02:15,352 --> 01:02:19,352
Speaker 4: sincere apology for what has turned out to be probably

1046
01:02:19,392 --> 01:02:22,792
Speaker 4: the greatest miscarriage of justice since Linda Chamberlain.

1047
01:02:24,912 --> 01:02:28,432
Speaker 1: Craig Folbig sadly passed away after suffering a heart attack

1048
01:02:28,552 --> 01:02:32,272
Speaker 1: in March twenty twenty four. He died still believing his

1049
01:02:32,352 --> 01:02:36,512
Speaker 1: ex wife was responsible for the deaths of Caleb, Patrick, Sarah,

1050
01:02:36,552 --> 01:02:41,432
Speaker 1: and Laura. Despite the heartbreak, though, Kathleen says she doesn't

1051
01:02:41,472 --> 01:02:44,912
Speaker 1: regret having a single one of her children. She says

1052
01:02:45,152 --> 01:02:48,032
Speaker 1: if she'd known about her genetic condition, maybe she might

1053
01:02:48,032 --> 01:02:50,912
Speaker 1: have rethought how she became pregnant. But back in the

1054
01:02:50,952 --> 01:02:53,592
Speaker 1: late eighties and nineties, this kind of testing wasn't as

1055
01:02:53,632 --> 01:02:56,512
Speaker 1: easily accessible as it is now, As many women who

1056
01:02:56,592 --> 01:02:59,512
Speaker 1: want to have children know too, Sometimes the pool to

1057
01:02:59,552 --> 01:03:03,552
Speaker 1: become a mother overrides all else and since but she's

1058
01:03:03,592 --> 01:03:07,952
Speaker 1: made it very very clear she will never write in

1059
01:03:07,992 --> 01:03:13,232
Speaker 1: a diary ever again. Thanks to Quentin for helping us

1060
01:03:13,232 --> 01:03:16,392
Speaker 1: tell this story. True Crime Conversations is a podcast hosted

1061
01:03:16,392 --> 01:03:19,432
Speaker 1: by me Claire Murphy. The producer is Charlie Blackman, with

1062
01:03:19,512 --> 01:03:23,032
Speaker 1: audio designed by Jacob Brown. Thank you so much for listening.

1063
01:03:23,152 --> 01:03:25,632
Speaker 1: You'll be hearing from Jemma Bath next week with another

1064
01:03:25,792 --> 01:03:26,992
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversation