WEBVTT - Inside The Mind Of A Sexual Predator 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:15.502 You're listening to a Mother and Mia podcast. MoMA Mia 0:00:15.622 --> 0:00:19.422 acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast 0:00:19.622 --> 0:00:28.382 was recorded on It's nine p thirty pm on a 0:00:28.462 --> 0:00:31.902 muggy spring night in Sydney. And you're walking home from 0:00:31.902 --> 0:00:35.542 a friend's house. You're still a good fifteen minutes away 0:00:35.582 --> 0:00:39.862 and just starting to feel nervous. Your sense you're being followed. 0:00:40.182 --> 0:00:44.102 In fact, you know you are in the shadows. About 0:00:44.142 --> 0:00:48.182 twenty meters behind you is a man. As you walk faster, 0:00:48.342 --> 0:00:51.462 so does he. The hair prickles on the back of 0:00:51.462 --> 0:00:53.782 your neck and you quickly cross the road, trying to 0:00:53.822 --> 0:00:58.422 put some distance between you. It doesn't work. He has 0:00:58.462 --> 0:01:00.902 crossed the road as well, and now he's closing in. 0:01:01.902 --> 0:01:05.382 What do you do? Keep walking and hope for the best, 0:01:06.422 --> 0:01:09.902 stop and wait for him to walk past. Just ignore 0:01:09.942 --> 0:01:13.182 the whole city and tell yourself to stop being so paranoid, 0:01:14.342 --> 0:01:17.302 or actually accept that you might be in danger and 0:01:17.342 --> 0:01:22.422 do something constructive, something that studies have proven could very 0:01:22.462 --> 0:01:34.342 well save your life. I'm Jemma Bath and this is 0:01:34.382 --> 0:01:38.982 True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most 0:01:39.022 --> 0:01:42.382 notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 0:01:42.422 --> 0:01:45.862 most about them. If you were to ask Brent Sanders, 0:01:46.102 --> 0:01:49.862 doing something constructive is the only answer to that scenario 0:01:49.902 --> 0:01:53.822 you just heard. In his experience, this situation is not 0:01:54.062 --> 0:01:58.422 likely to be anything other than sexually motivated. Brent is 0:01:58.462 --> 0:02:02.062 a former police officer who was deployed in riot control 0:02:02.062 --> 0:02:05.942 and did extensive work investigating rapes and studying the methods 0:02:05.942 --> 0:02:10.702 and psychology of rapists. For the last thirty years, he 0:02:10.782 --> 0:02:14.742 has dedicated his career to sex crime education. He has 0:02:14.782 --> 0:02:17.622 provided more than a million people with the tools and 0:02:17.662 --> 0:02:20.982 mindset to both protect themselves in a violent or escalating 0:02:20.982 --> 0:02:25.222 situation or avoid one altogether. He also wants his students, 0:02:25.262 --> 0:02:28.102 who are mainly young women and girls, to know how 0:02:28.142 --> 0:02:31.382 the law works, to know what the legal definitions for 0:02:31.462 --> 0:02:35.422 consent and drunkenness are, and to know where to physically 0:02:35.462 --> 0:02:40.262 strike someone if you find yourself in danger. Brent lives 0:02:40.342 --> 0:02:43.502 and breathes this world. When he's not teaching high school 0:02:43.582 --> 0:02:47.982 kids about life choices, he's hosting his own podcast, Crime Insiders. 0:02:48.582 --> 0:02:59.742 Brent joins us, Now, Brent, take me back to the 0:02:59.782 --> 0:03:02.822 start of your career. Was being a cop everything you 0:03:02.862 --> 0:03:03.542 thought it would be? 0:03:03.942 --> 0:03:05.982 Yeah, look it was. I joined the police. When I 0:03:05.982 --> 0:03:08.542 was nineteen, I was a kid. I was the youngest 0:03:08.542 --> 0:03:12.582 recruit in the academy, so I graduated as the youngest 0:03:12.902 --> 0:03:15.102 police officer in the country. I was in New Zealand, 0:03:15.822 --> 0:03:19.302 and if you told me back then that I would 0:03:19.382 --> 0:03:22.662 end up doing what I do now, million miles away 0:03:22.702 --> 0:03:23.702 from where my head was. 0:03:24.662 --> 0:03:27.862 What did your experience in the police force teach you 0:03:27.902 --> 0:03:33.502 about male violence and male sexual violence, particularly towards women. 0:03:34.422 --> 0:03:36.622 You know, in the police you don't just specifically work 0:03:36.662 --> 0:03:40.182 in that environment, but it certainly comes up a lot. 0:03:40.502 --> 0:03:43.502 I worked in a lot of very confrontational environments in 0:03:43.542 --> 0:03:45.582 the gangs. I was in the right police dealing with 0:03:45.662 --> 0:03:48.902 gangs and always around the fringes of that. You're very 0:03:48.902 --> 0:03:52.622 aware of high degrees of violence within those environments towards women. 0:03:53.302 --> 0:03:57.022 Sex crimes only really became a specialized area of policing 0:03:57.062 --> 0:03:59.542 in Australia New Zealand sort of late eighties, early nineties, 0:03:59.622 --> 0:04:02.662 which is wild. It is it's hard to believe that now, 0:04:02.702 --> 0:04:07.342 But that also sort of coincided with more awareness around 0:04:07.342 --> 0:04:10.062 criminal profiling, and that's sort of what put me on 0:04:10.062 --> 0:04:13.862 a little bit of a pathway to learning more about that. 0:04:14.102 --> 0:04:16.462 And it was a bit of a sliding door moment 0:04:16.502 --> 0:04:19.902 where I was approached having done a talk on profiling 0:04:19.902 --> 0:04:23.542 and sexual crime here in Australia, I was approached by 0:04:23.542 --> 0:04:26.502 a woman from the Education department. This is in nineteen 0:04:26.622 --> 0:04:29.102 ninety five, this is a long time ago. I remember. 0:04:29.142 --> 0:04:32.022 She came up with this big sort of Manila envelope. 0:04:32.342 --> 0:04:34.022 Wasn't even much in the way of emailing and things 0:04:34.062 --> 0:04:36.382 such as that, and she said, look, we're looking to 0:04:36.422 --> 0:04:39.542 team up with somebody with your background who could possibly 0:04:39.582 --> 0:04:42.542 help us put some courses together to go into schools 0:04:43.022 --> 0:04:47.462 and raise awareness around sexual crime, consent that type of thing. 0:04:47.902 --> 0:04:50.142 And she sort of gave me this very heavy envelope 0:04:50.142 --> 0:04:52.342 and I took it away. I had a look at 0:04:52.342 --> 0:04:54.702 and I thought, you know, that maybe something I could 0:04:55.262 --> 0:04:58.542 contribute to. But that was sort of the springboard from 0:04:58.902 --> 0:05:01.422 taking some leave from the police. I did my last 0:05:01.462 --> 0:05:04.582 talk on sexual crime this morning to two hundred boys 0:05:04.582 --> 0:05:08.022 at a boys school in Blacktown. So when I started, 0:05:08.702 --> 0:05:12.062 weirdly the education part only wanted me to talk to 0:05:12.822 --> 0:05:17.902 young women, not boys, which to me was always quite bizarre. 0:05:18.222 --> 0:05:21.102 And then trying to get into schools as a male 0:05:21.262 --> 0:05:24.822 police officer at that time, I came up against a 0:05:24.822 --> 0:05:29.382 heap of resistance from groups who felt that they didn't 0:05:29.382 --> 0:05:33.062 want a male talking to females about this stuff. I 0:05:33.182 --> 0:05:36.542 had situations where I had people physically trying to stop 0:05:36.582 --> 0:05:38.942 me get into a hall to speak to girls because 0:05:38.942 --> 0:05:40.662 I was a male. So you know, there was a 0:05:40.662 --> 0:05:43.222 little bit of resistance there, but I knew where that 0:05:43.302 --> 0:05:45.302 was coming from. It was coming from a good place. 0:05:45.342 --> 0:05:47.862 It wasn't against me so much. It was more like, well, 0:05:49.022 --> 0:05:52.742 it hadn't been done before. We didn't have ex coppers 0:05:52.782 --> 0:05:56.022 walking into schools and speaking to students about sexual crime. 0:05:56.502 --> 0:05:58.502 So when I first started doing it, a lot of 0:05:58.542 --> 0:06:01.422 schools weren't interested. They just wouldn't touch it. And the 0:06:01.462 --> 0:06:03.622 first school that got me in in Australia was actually 0:06:03.662 --> 0:06:06.982 a private girls school in North Sydney, and because they 0:06:07.582 --> 0:06:10.422 are a little bit more autonomous where the state schools 0:06:10.502 --> 0:06:13.982 were going, well where have you been before? And anyway, 0:06:14.262 --> 0:06:16.862 that school that got me in, I've been back there 0:06:16.902 --> 0:06:20.862 every year for twenty nine years. So after a couple 0:06:20.862 --> 0:06:23.342 of years, the Education department said, oh, we can't just 0:06:23.422 --> 0:06:27.502 have you speaking to girls, and I'm going, well, yeah, okay, 0:06:27.622 --> 0:06:30.542 probably smart. So I started speaking to boys. I speak 0:06:30.582 --> 0:06:32.902 to as many young men as I do young women. 0:06:33.862 --> 0:06:35.662 Can you give us an overview of what that looks like. 0:06:35.742 --> 0:06:38.822 Do you have men in one group that you speak 0:06:38.862 --> 0:06:41.982 to women separately? Are they all together and what are 0:06:42.022 --> 0:06:42.822 you teaching them? 0:06:43.342 --> 0:06:45.782 Used to be separate in so much as that the 0:06:45.782 --> 0:06:48.622 coed schools that I was going into started saying, well, look, 0:06:48.662 --> 0:06:50.742 we want you to talk to the boys, but it 0:06:50.782 --> 0:06:52.862 was sort of never, well, we want a cab and 0:06:52.902 --> 0:06:55.822 copy of the girls session, because the session was originally 0:06:55.862 --> 0:06:58.702 designed for young women, because that's what the brief was. 0:06:59.302 --> 0:07:02.662 So when I started talking to young boys, I wanted 0:07:02.702 --> 0:07:05.382 to talk about the same content, but I also wanted 0:07:05.382 --> 0:07:08.582 there to be a specific difference, and so I wanted 0:07:08.622 --> 0:07:12.102 to talk to the boys around choice, consequence, around peer pressure, 0:07:12.142 --> 0:07:16.462 around heartbeat decisions, how they can change your life, and 0:07:16.502 --> 0:07:18.942 a little bit of that was sort of going back 0:07:18.982 --> 0:07:20.622 to some of the troubles I got into as a 0:07:20.662 --> 0:07:23.902 young guy. So I spoke to boys about that. Now 0:07:23.942 --> 0:07:27.622 more frequently they're combined, which I think is good. I 0:07:27.742 --> 0:07:29.662 just ticked over a million students that have gone through 0:07:29.702 --> 0:07:31.902 my talk, so I speak to about thirty thousand, forty 0:07:31.942 --> 0:07:35.142 thousand a year, as many young men as young women. 0:07:36.102 --> 0:07:39.782 I'm curious to hear how the boys in particular react 0:07:40.662 --> 0:07:42.702 when you give them all of this information. What do 0:07:42.742 --> 0:07:44.462 they say to you? What questions do they ask you? 0:07:44.742 --> 0:07:47.222 They ask the same questions the girls do, to be fair, 0:07:47.222 --> 0:07:50.102 but often maybe from a slight different perspective. Back in 0:07:50.142 --> 0:07:52.142 the day, a lot of the girls' schools I was 0:07:52.182 --> 0:07:56.222 going into my presentation went all day. Now I pretty 0:07:56.262 --> 0:07:58.782 much do a presentation which is a couple of hours long, 0:07:59.422 --> 0:08:03.502 year ten, eleven and twelve. Primarily my focus is around 0:08:03.902 --> 0:08:08.022 putting the spotlight on what consent means, how consenters defined 0:08:08.702 --> 0:08:12.462 what sexual intercourse legally means versus inn a biological context. 0:08:12.862 --> 0:08:17.382 They know the slogans around an intimate exchange requires consent. 0:08:17.542 --> 0:08:20.022 It's like, well, yep, they all know that. But then 0:08:20.062 --> 0:08:23.382 if you say, okay, tell me what consent is, how 0:08:23.382 --> 0:08:24.622 do you know you have it? How do you know 0:08:24.662 --> 0:08:27.622 you've provided it? What if a friend comes to talk 0:08:27.662 --> 0:08:29.902 to you about something that they've gone through and they're 0:08:29.942 --> 0:08:31.742 sort of asking you, do you think I consented or 0:08:31.742 --> 0:08:35.022 didn't I? Where are you drawing your answers from on that? 0:08:35.782 --> 0:08:39.142 So leaving the police, I thought the last thing that 0:08:39.262 --> 0:08:42.702 students would want to hear in my seminars is legal stuff. 0:08:43.582 --> 0:08:46.742 It's ninety nine percent of the questions I get are 0:08:46.822 --> 0:08:50.422 legal questions, and it gives clarity for them. So we 0:08:50.462 --> 0:08:53.942 look at a term, say, for example, like consent, then 0:08:53.942 --> 0:08:57.582 I break it into its three legal components, age, effects 0:08:57.582 --> 0:09:00.822 of our colon drugs, and whether the permission was given freely. 0:09:00.902 --> 0:09:03.742 So we put the spotlight on those three. But I 0:09:03.782 --> 0:09:06.622 go from defining what it is to running it through 0:09:06.662 --> 0:09:09.542 real life scenarios for them and giving them really easy 0:09:09.622 --> 0:09:14.662 checkpoints around it. So rather than assuming that because all 0:09:14.862 --> 0:09:18.462 year eleven, year twelve students know a drunk person can't consent, well, 0:09:18.462 --> 0:09:21.262 that doesn't mean they know what the test is legally. 0:09:21.422 --> 0:09:23.582 They've got no idea what the test is. So they 0:09:23.622 --> 0:09:26.582 know the slogan, but they don't really know what it means. 0:09:27.142 --> 0:09:30.982 So I explain to them how it's defined legally. Then 0:09:31.022 --> 0:09:35.022 I give them the practical application of that in a 0:09:35.062 --> 0:09:37.622 party environment or something like that. So I'm hoping that 0:09:38.302 --> 0:09:41.302 they can walk out with these key things around in 0:09:41.342 --> 0:09:44.782 that instance around consent. Consent is a very complex thing, 0:09:45.622 --> 0:09:48.702 but my job is to simplify it but still have 0:09:48.742 --> 0:09:54.222 application to the law. Talking about things like sexual intercourse 0:09:54.262 --> 0:09:58.382 without consent. I get disclosures every week, and it's usually 0:09:58.382 --> 0:10:01.662 young women. The bulk of them say to me, look, 0:10:01.742 --> 0:10:05.022 I didn't actually know that what happened to me was 0:10:05.102 --> 0:10:08.342 a criminal offense or what the offense was until I 0:10:08.422 --> 0:10:13.902 heard all these definitions. Simple stuff like the term sexual intercourse. 0:10:14.302 --> 0:10:16.022 I mean, they all have heard the term, but the 0:10:16.062 --> 0:10:18.342 definition that they have at high school comes from a 0:10:18.382 --> 0:10:22.422 biology textbook which bears no resemblance to the law. So 0:10:22.582 --> 0:10:26.822 just giving that piece of information, that opens up a 0:10:26.902 --> 0:10:29.622 whole lot of Oh my goodness, I've been through this, 0:10:30.422 --> 0:10:32.022 but I didn't know that when I went through that 0:10:32.342 --> 0:10:35.982 it fell into that legal category. A really common question 0:10:36.062 --> 0:10:39.422 I get speaking to young women is what if somebody 0:10:39.502 --> 0:10:42.542 does something to me sexually without my consent, but it 0:10:42.582 --> 0:10:47.502 doesn't go as far as intercourse. Now, people know that's wrong, 0:10:47.582 --> 0:10:50.822 people know that that shouldn't happen, But respectfully, most people 0:10:50.822 --> 0:10:54.062 would struggle to tell you what that offense is and 0:10:54.142 --> 0:10:56.822 what the ingredients are of it. That's the most common 0:10:56.862 --> 0:11:01.142 disclosure I get, particularly in co ed schools, often young 0:11:01.182 --> 0:11:03.622 women coming forward after my talk saying I had no 0:11:03.782 --> 0:11:08.382 idea of that unlawful sexual touching, stuff that's happened to 0:11:08.422 --> 0:11:11.422 me heaps without getting the malodrum about it. Each time 0:11:11.462 --> 0:11:13.742 someone does that in New South Wales carries a five 0:11:13.782 --> 0:11:16.982 year in prisonment term. I've had young women come forward 0:11:17.062 --> 0:11:20.382 say oh, that's happened to me every day at school 0:11:20.382 --> 0:11:20.902 this term. 0:11:21.622 --> 0:11:24.182 Does it surprise you the amount of women that come forward? 0:11:24.302 --> 0:11:28.022 No? No, not after thirty years. Yeah, doesn't surprise me. 0:11:28.582 --> 0:11:30.822 I'm more surprised when not too many come forward. 0:11:31.702 --> 0:11:33.662 Has it changed? You know you said you did your 0:11:33.702 --> 0:11:37.622 first seminar in nineteen ninety five. Are women more knowledgeable 0:11:37.622 --> 0:11:38.542 now more confident? 0:11:38.862 --> 0:11:42.222 I think so. I think there's sometimes a confusion that 0:11:42.382 --> 0:11:46.142 because we have more disclosures, because we probably have more 0:11:46.142 --> 0:11:50.222 cases reported, that it's happening more. I don't think that 0:11:50.382 --> 0:11:52.782 is the case. I don't think there's really much in 0:11:52.822 --> 0:11:55.622 the way of evidence to show that we have a 0:11:55.782 --> 0:12:01.062 increase in sexual crime against young women in Australia compared 0:12:01.062 --> 0:12:03.782 to nineteen ninety five to today. But what we do have, 0:12:03.982 --> 0:12:06.862 as you quite rightly point out, there's a lot more knowledge, 0:12:06.982 --> 0:12:09.262 and you know people can access all of this online. 0:12:09.782 --> 0:12:12.022 That can be good bad because you don't know how 0:12:12.062 --> 0:12:15.862 reliable the information is that they're getting courses going into 0:12:15.902 --> 0:12:21.182 schools currently talking about consent things which are appalling. So 0:12:21.222 --> 0:12:24.422 there's a lot of misinformation out there. I come from 0:12:24.422 --> 0:12:26.382 that policing background, and I've done this for a long 0:12:26.422 --> 0:12:28.782 long time, so I don't go outside of those rails. 0:12:29.182 --> 0:12:31.902 I think there is no doubt that we are seeing 0:12:31.942 --> 0:12:37.582 an increase in reporting, but I think that's indicative of 0:12:37.582 --> 0:12:41.622 an increase in people becoming more aware. Statistics would suggest 0:12:41.662 --> 0:12:44.582 there's no massive increase in incidences. 0:12:45.542 --> 0:12:47.982 A lot of what you do is actually giving the 0:12:48.102 --> 0:12:51.902 tools to your students, a lot of whom are women, 0:12:51.982 --> 0:12:55.822 about how to actually physically and mentally protect themselves if 0:12:55.822 --> 0:12:58.302 they're in a situation. And I want to address this 0:12:58.382 --> 0:13:00.942 question first because I can imagine it's been put to you. 0:13:02.502 --> 0:13:04.462 Some might say that the owners shouldn't be on women 0:13:04.782 --> 0:13:07.982 to kind of change their behavior and learn the tactics, 0:13:08.022 --> 0:13:11.462 that it should be on teaching men. Definitely, what do 0:13:11.502 --> 0:13:12.062 you say to that. 0:13:12.102 --> 0:13:14.862 I agree one hundred percent, but that's not going to 0:13:14.902 --> 0:13:18.982 help a woman who this afternoon is confronted an ideological 0:13:19.062 --> 0:13:21.782 view that we should come up with something that stops 0:13:21.822 --> 0:13:23.822 men from doing this. You won't get any argument from 0:13:23.862 --> 0:13:26.582 me I present to more young men I do young women. 0:13:26.822 --> 0:13:29.582 I've got a son and a daughter. Of course, in 0:13:29.622 --> 0:13:33.862 a perfect world, firstly, the stuff wouldn't happen. Secondly, if 0:13:33.862 --> 0:13:35.902 it does, we'd be able to address those who do 0:13:35.942 --> 0:13:39.102 it and they'd stop. Now, we can reduce this stuff, 0:13:39.862 --> 0:13:43.422 but we're never going to stop it completely. In my book, 0:13:43.462 --> 0:13:45.822 I put forward a lot of different strategies and things 0:13:45.822 --> 0:13:48.862 such as that based on the psychology of the type 0:13:48.862 --> 0:13:51.382 of offender that you're up against. I don't do that anymore. 0:13:51.742 --> 0:13:54.302 And the reason I don't do it anymore is because 0:13:54.982 --> 0:13:57.662 I've always walked this thin line as a male presenting 0:13:57.662 --> 0:14:00.302 on the stuff anyway, as a next police officer, you know, 0:14:00.342 --> 0:14:03.182 I've always been a very very easy target for people 0:14:03.902 --> 0:14:07.142 to push back against this, you know, and that target 0:14:07.182 --> 0:14:11.142 became even bigger in more recent times because, in the 0:14:11.142 --> 0:14:15.102 eyes of many, I had the audacity to share strategies 0:14:15.142 --> 0:14:17.782 with young women to help them get out of these situations. 0:14:17.942 --> 0:14:21.102 So I don't do it anymore now. The downside to 0:14:21.142 --> 0:14:25.662 that is that might ideologically make some people feel better 0:14:25.862 --> 0:14:29.502 about themselves because they've stopped this police officer going into 0:14:29.502 --> 0:14:33.782 schools and teaching strategies the downside is I taught a 0:14:33.822 --> 0:14:38.542 strategy for probably twenty five years to young women on 0:14:38.582 --> 0:14:41.062 how to get out of a date rape situation, and 0:14:41.102 --> 0:14:45.342 I never ever had one person contact me to tell 0:14:45.342 --> 0:14:48.462 me that that strategy had failed. Ever. But I don't 0:14:48.462 --> 0:14:52.182 teach it anymore because I got so much pushback more 0:14:52.222 --> 0:14:55.422 recently going into schools about teaching strategy, and that was 0:14:55.462 --> 0:15:00.542 then victim blaming. So I'm supportive of all of this stuff, 0:15:01.662 --> 0:15:04.462 but I know also working at the coal Face, that 0:15:04.742 --> 0:15:07.222 some of this stuff, even if it's done with good intent, 0:15:08.062 --> 0:15:11.742 the end result is detrimental to those who I'm trying 0:15:11.742 --> 0:15:13.142 to help see. 0:15:13.182 --> 0:15:17.062 I read through those strategies and felt quite empowered by them, 0:15:17.062 --> 0:15:20.622 so I'm surprised to hear that people have pushed back 0:15:20.662 --> 0:15:21.582 against you sharing them. 0:15:21.622 --> 0:15:23.622 Well, the only people who push back are people who've 0:15:23.662 --> 0:15:26.102 never read my book or never attended one of my seminars, 0:15:26.102 --> 0:15:28.942 but they're very vocal. But you know, after all these years, 0:15:29.702 --> 0:15:31.502 I just sort of thought, well, you know what, I'm 0:15:31.542 --> 0:15:33.182 going to keep going and I'm going to doing my 0:15:33.302 --> 0:15:35.942 talks and when people ask me about strategy, I say, yeah, 0:15:35.942 --> 0:15:37.942 I've got some fantastic strategies that you can have a 0:15:37.942 --> 0:15:38.902 look into my book. 0:15:38.702 --> 0:15:42.902 And things bring it on. There is a bit of 0:15:42.902 --> 0:15:46.062 advice that floats around a lot. Yes, with women, if 0:15:46.102 --> 0:15:48.662 you are presented with a situation where someone is trying 0:15:48.702 --> 0:15:52.222 to physically or sexually hurt you, to submit to them. Yes, 0:15:53.462 --> 0:15:55.542 Why do you think that that is a very bad idea. 0:15:56.222 --> 0:15:58.542 I think it's a bad idea in sexual crime particularly. Look, 0:15:58.542 --> 0:16:00.302 don't get me wrong. If I walked out of here 0:16:00.302 --> 0:16:02.782 today and somebody attacked me in a side street here 0:16:02.782 --> 0:16:04.502 in willem Aloo and one of my wallet, I'd probably 0:16:04.542 --> 0:16:06.422 hand it over to them. Now, I'm one hundred and 0:16:06.502 --> 0:16:09.142 five kilos, I've got no neck, you know. But I 0:16:09.182 --> 0:16:11.142 know the person that confronts me, he is a desperate 0:16:11.182 --> 0:16:15.622 person because I probably wouldn't confront me. Does that make sense? 0:16:16.342 --> 0:16:19.182 So I don't want to make a bad situation even worse. 0:16:19.542 --> 0:16:22.742 So sometimes the best thing to do is the opposite 0:16:22.782 --> 0:16:24.702 to what we're told. See, guys aren't told to do that. 0:16:25.262 --> 0:16:27.342 Guys are told if someone fronts up to you monst 0:16:27.342 --> 0:16:30.782 your wallet, you'd stand your ground, you puff your chest out. Well, 0:16:30.822 --> 0:16:33.222 I've been in more physical confrontations and most blokes have 0:16:33.302 --> 0:16:35.942 had hot dinners, and I wouldn't do that, So I 0:16:35.942 --> 0:16:39.102 would never encourage someone to do that. Now, when we 0:16:39.142 --> 0:16:42.142 flick that over to sexual crime, why is my message different? 0:16:42.422 --> 0:16:45.822 Because the psychology of the person who selects you as 0:16:45.862 --> 0:16:48.182 a young woman to commit a sexual offense against you, 0:16:48.222 --> 0:16:52.222 the stranger offender, he is a totally different psychological study 0:16:52.262 --> 0:16:55.182 than the person who confronts me. See, I look like 0:16:55.182 --> 0:16:58.462 i'd fight back. So if I do that, I'm actually 0:16:58.462 --> 0:17:01.982 doing what they're anticipating. Nobody is going to confront me 0:17:02.822 --> 0:17:05.662 my size and think that I'm going to curl up 0:17:05.662 --> 0:17:07.782 on the ground and with my hands in there. They 0:17:07.782 --> 0:17:09.742 think I'm going to fight back, so I to empower 0:17:09.742 --> 0:17:12.342 them by not doing that. Now, if we look at 0:17:12.382 --> 0:17:14.702 the psychology of offender who selects you, and this is 0:17:14.742 --> 0:17:18.022 not an indictment on you, it's a reflection on why 0:17:18.022 --> 0:17:22.142 you're selected. You're selected by a sex offender because he believes, 0:17:22.182 --> 0:17:25.542 because you're female, you won't fight back. So you've got 0:17:25.582 --> 0:17:28.982 to start working from that psychology. So, on the one hand, 0:17:29.142 --> 0:17:32.742 you're quite right. There's been a generational message to girls 0:17:32.742 --> 0:17:35.862 and women handed down from their mums, which were handed 0:17:35.902 --> 0:17:38.342 down from their mums. So now we're back over one 0:17:38.382 --> 0:17:41.302 hundred years that the worst thing you could possibly do 0:17:41.902 --> 0:17:44.942 against that unknown sexual offender, who might I add as 0:17:44.982 --> 0:17:47.302 a very rare form of sexual crime, but it's something 0:17:47.302 --> 0:17:50.182 that occupies the minds of a lot of people because 0:17:50.222 --> 0:17:52.942 it brings to life what we see in TV in 0:17:52.982 --> 0:17:55.862 the movies. Ninety nine point nine percent of sexual offenders 0:17:55.862 --> 0:17:59.382 that are depicted through those services are strangers, even though 0:17:59.382 --> 0:18:02.542 they make up a tiny percentage of sexual crime. But 0:18:02.742 --> 0:18:05.622 I get that every woman I've ever met in my 0:18:05.782 --> 0:18:10.422 life has a desire to know what would you add 0:18:10.462 --> 0:18:14.662 actually do in that situation. So my approach has always been, Okay, well, 0:18:14.702 --> 0:18:17.502 let's look at the psychology of it. I get them 0:18:17.542 --> 0:18:19.662 to imagine, say, walking home from school on their own, 0:18:20.342 --> 0:18:23.062 car drives past slowly. Lone male offender in the car, 0:18:23.182 --> 0:18:25.822 you know, looks at the young woman, pulls up twenty 0:18:25.862 --> 0:18:29.302 minutes away, gets out of the car, which is making 0:18:29.342 --> 0:18:32.062 the young woman feel afraid. And I get to the 0:18:32.062 --> 0:18:34.302 point of saying, this guy runs out of the car 0:18:34.342 --> 0:18:36.502 and he grabs you, and he's taking you back towards 0:18:36.542 --> 0:18:40.742 the car, and I say, what I want you to 0:18:40.742 --> 0:18:43.662 do is I want you to picture yourself in that situation, 0:18:43.742 --> 0:18:46.822 at that moment yelling and screaming at the top of 0:18:46.862 --> 0:18:51.782 your voice and physically attacking your attacker, and then I 0:18:51.822 --> 0:18:55.222 stop it there. And the most common reaction I've got 0:18:55.262 --> 0:18:57.462 over the years of doing that is the girls will laugh. 0:18:58.782 --> 0:19:01.662 The laughter is the thought that they would actually see 0:19:01.702 --> 0:19:05.902 themselves fighting a back against a man attacker. It's like, yeah, right, 0:19:05.942 --> 0:19:08.382 as if you do that. So this is where we 0:19:08.462 --> 0:19:12.702 work from, right, because the way the girls are reacting 0:19:13.502 --> 0:19:16.222 is not through the experience of having been in the situation. 0:19:16.742 --> 0:19:20.942 They're reacting to their conditioning. So in any conflict situation 0:19:21.102 --> 0:19:24.182 you or I find ourselves in, we're not really responding 0:19:24.222 --> 0:19:28.182 to the situation. We've carried into the situation our conditioning. 0:19:28.742 --> 0:19:30.542 If you're trained to do the right thing, that's brilliant. 0:19:30.982 --> 0:19:34.062 If you're trained to do the wrong thing, that's not great. So, okay, 0:19:34.222 --> 0:19:36.462 this guy had hold of you, dragging in toowards the car. 0:19:36.782 --> 0:19:39.462 If you start yelling and screaming fight back, what would 0:19:39.462 --> 0:19:42.422 happen to the guy? What would he become? And they 0:19:42.462 --> 0:19:46.262 all like or get more angry, So there's our first barrier. 0:19:46.862 --> 0:19:48.662 Next thing I say is if the guy does get 0:19:48.662 --> 0:19:53.382 more angry because of how you respond, will that increase 0:19:53.582 --> 0:19:57.342 or decrease the likelihood of him physically hurting you. Now 0:19:57.382 --> 0:20:01.622 they're also a little increase. It's obvious he's an aggressive, 0:20:01.622 --> 0:20:04.382 angry person and he's violent. He's going to become more violent. 0:20:05.102 --> 0:20:07.982 Then the third thing I says, if you respond in 0:20:07.982 --> 0:20:10.342 a way that you believe will make this guy more 0:20:10.502 --> 0:20:13.022 angry and that will increase the lightlihood of you getting hurt, 0:20:14.142 --> 0:20:16.702 would you say that the situation for you as a 0:20:16.782 --> 0:20:19.222 result of that response is going to get better or worse? 0:20:19.662 --> 0:20:23.902 That will say, well, worse. So that just explains why 0:20:24.022 --> 0:20:26.782 so many don't fight back. All I've got them to 0:20:26.862 --> 0:20:30.862 do is to tell me what they've been conditioned to believe. Now, interestingly, 0:20:30.902 --> 0:20:33.502 if you look at any studies on this, the success 0:20:33.582 --> 0:20:35.822 rate of women yelling and screaming and fighting back against 0:20:35.902 --> 0:20:39.262 unarmed sex offenders is over ninety percent. You couldn't find 0:20:39.302 --> 0:20:43.422 a study that would dispute that. All the research, all 0:20:43.462 --> 0:20:47.702 the study, all the psychology provides the totally different information 0:20:47.822 --> 0:20:50.462 and knowledge than conditioning, because where do people get their 0:20:50.462 --> 0:20:54.342 conditioning from? TV? Movies? So what I do is I'll say, okay, 0:20:54.422 --> 0:20:56.982 let's break this down. When that guy drives past you 0:20:57.102 --> 0:20:58.862 and sees you, why does he stop the car and 0:20:58.942 --> 0:21:02.102 get out? And sometimes I'll say, do you reckon? If 0:21:02.142 --> 0:21:04.342 I was walking down the street, that guy would stop 0:21:04.342 --> 0:21:07.542 and confront me, and they'll laugh, of course, not what 0:21:07.622 --> 0:21:09.582 do I look like I do? Or you'd look like 0:21:09.622 --> 0:21:13.102 you'd fight back. So it's interesting here, isn't it. They're 0:21:13.102 --> 0:21:15.382 saying the reason he'll drive away from you is you 0:21:15.422 --> 0:21:19.022 look like you'll defend yourself. The reason he selects them 0:21:19.142 --> 0:21:21.582 is they look like they won't and then they're told 0:21:21.702 --> 0:21:24.982 not to. You can just see these lights going on 0:21:25.062 --> 0:21:27.822 like this, Hang on, I've been sold a bit of 0:21:27.822 --> 0:21:31.342 a lemon here, you know. I take them into the 0:21:31.382 --> 0:21:34.062 mind of the offender, and I said that offender's driving 0:21:34.102 --> 0:21:36.542 around a car looking for an ideal target. This is 0:21:36.582 --> 0:21:38.862 what they say when you interview them. You know, I'm 0:21:38.902 --> 0:21:42.342 looking for somebody who will follow the script that I've 0:21:42.382 --> 0:21:46.102 written for them, so he will select only somebody who 0:21:46.142 --> 0:21:49.742 he believes will offer no resistance. And I'll say something 0:21:49.902 --> 0:21:52.982 like with the sex offenders I've interviewed that I've written 0:21:53.022 --> 0:21:55.462 books about and what have you. If he had a 0:21:55.462 --> 0:21:58.822 crystal ball on the dashboard of his car and he 0:21:58.942 --> 0:22:01.102 drove past you, and he looked into the crystal ball, 0:22:01.302 --> 0:22:04.382 and he could see how you would respond if he 0:22:04.422 --> 0:22:08.942 saw you yelling, screaming, running, fighting back. Every single offender 0:22:09.022 --> 0:22:11.942 I have ever interviewed keep on driving. But he doesn't 0:22:11.982 --> 0:22:15.502