1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:15,502 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and Mia podcast. MoMA Mia 2 00:00:15,622 --> 00:00:19,422 Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast 3 00:00:19,622 --> 00:00:28,382 Speaker 1: was recorded on It's nine p thirty pm on a 4 00:00:28,462 --> 00:00:31,902 Speaker 1: muggy spring night in Sydney. And you're walking home from 5 00:00:31,902 --> 00:00:35,542 Speaker 1: a friend's house. You're still a good fifteen minutes away 6 00:00:35,582 --> 00:00:39,862 Speaker 1: and just starting to feel nervous. Your sense you're being followed. 7 00:00:40,182 --> 00:00:44,102 Speaker 1: In fact, you know you are in the shadows. About 8 00:00:44,142 --> 00:00:48,182 Speaker 1: twenty meters behind you is a man. As you walk faster, 9 00:00:48,342 --> 00:00:51,462 Speaker 1: so does he. The hair prickles on the back of 10 00:00:51,462 --> 00:00:53,782 Speaker 1: your neck and you quickly cross the road, trying to 11 00:00:53,822 --> 00:00:58,422 Speaker 1: put some distance between you. It doesn't work. He has 12 00:00:58,462 --> 00:01:00,902 Speaker 1: crossed the road as well, and now he's closing in. 13 00:01:01,902 --> 00:01:05,382 Speaker 1: What do you do? Keep walking and hope for the best, 14 00:01:06,422 --> 00:01:09,902 Speaker 1: stop and wait for him to walk past. Just ignore 15 00:01:09,942 --> 00:01:13,182 Speaker 1: the whole city and tell yourself to stop being so paranoid, 16 00:01:14,342 --> 00:01:17,302 Speaker 1: or actually accept that you might be in danger and 17 00:01:17,342 --> 00:01:22,422 Speaker 1: do something constructive, something that studies have proven could very 18 00:01:22,462 --> 00:01:34,342 Speaker 1: well save your life. I'm Jemma Bath and this is 19 00:01:34,382 --> 00:01:38,982 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most 20 00:01:39,022 --> 00:01:42,382 Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 21 00:01:42,422 --> 00:01:45,862 Speaker 1: most about them. If you were to ask Brent Sanders, 22 00:01:46,102 --> 00:01:49,862 Speaker 1: doing something constructive is the only answer to that scenario 23 00:01:49,902 --> 00:01:53,822 Speaker 1: you just heard. In his experience, this situation is not 24 00:01:54,062 --> 00:01:58,422 Speaker 1: likely to be anything other than sexually motivated. Brent is 25 00:01:58,462 --> 00:02:02,062 Speaker 1: a former police officer who was deployed in riot control 26 00:02:02,062 --> 00:02:05,942 Speaker 1: and did extensive work investigating rapes and studying the methods 27 00:02:05,942 --> 00:02:10,702 Speaker 1: and psychology of rapists. For the last thirty years, he 28 00:02:10,782 --> 00:02:14,742 Speaker 1: has dedicated his career to sex crime education. He has 29 00:02:14,782 --> 00:02:17,622 Speaker 1: provided more than a million people with the tools and 30 00:02:17,662 --> 00:02:20,982 Speaker 1: mindset to both protect themselves in a violent or escalating 31 00:02:20,982 --> 00:02:25,222 Speaker 1: situation or avoid one altogether. He also wants his students, 32 00:02:25,262 --> 00:02:28,102 Speaker 1: who are mainly young women and girls, to know how 33 00:02:28,142 --> 00:02:31,382 Speaker 1: the law works, to know what the legal definitions for 34 00:02:31,462 --> 00:02:35,422 Speaker 1: consent and drunkenness are, and to know where to physically 35 00:02:35,462 --> 00:02:40,262 Speaker 1: strike someone if you find yourself in danger. Brent lives 36 00:02:40,342 --> 00:02:43,502 Speaker 1: and breathes this world. When he's not teaching high school 37 00:02:43,582 --> 00:02:47,982 Speaker 1: kids about life choices, he's hosting his own podcast, Crime Insiders. 38 00:02:48,582 --> 00:02:59,742 Speaker 1: Brent joins us, Now, Brent, take me back to the 39 00:02:59,782 --> 00:03:02,822 Speaker 1: start of your career. Was being a cop everything you 40 00:03:02,862 --> 00:03:03,542 Speaker 1: thought it would be? 41 00:03:03,942 --> 00:03:05,982 Speaker 2: Yeah, look it was. I joined the police. When I 42 00:03:05,982 --> 00:03:08,542 Speaker 2: was nineteen, I was a kid. I was the youngest 43 00:03:08,542 --> 00:03:12,582 Speaker 2: recruit in the academy, so I graduated as the youngest 44 00:03:12,902 --> 00:03:15,102 Speaker 2: police officer in the country. I was in New Zealand, 45 00:03:15,822 --> 00:03:19,302 Speaker 2: and if you told me back then that I would 46 00:03:19,382 --> 00:03:22,662 Speaker 2: end up doing what I do now, million miles away 47 00:03:22,702 --> 00:03:23,702 Speaker 2: from where my head was. 48 00:03:24,662 --> 00:03:27,862 Speaker 1: What did your experience in the police force teach you 49 00:03:27,902 --> 00:03:33,502 Speaker 1: about male violence and male sexual violence, particularly towards women. 50 00:03:34,422 --> 00:03:36,622 Speaker 2: You know, in the police you don't just specifically work 51 00:03:36,662 --> 00:03:40,182 Speaker 2: in that environment, but it certainly comes up a lot. 52 00:03:40,502 --> 00:03:43,502 Speaker 2: I worked in a lot of very confrontational environments in 53 00:03:43,542 --> 00:03:45,582 Speaker 2: the gangs. I was in the right police dealing with 54 00:03:45,662 --> 00:03:48,902 Speaker 2: gangs and always around the fringes of that. You're very 55 00:03:48,902 --> 00:03:52,622 Speaker 2: aware of high degrees of violence within those environments towards women. 56 00:03:53,302 --> 00:03:57,022 Speaker 2: Sex crimes only really became a specialized area of policing 57 00:03:57,062 --> 00:03:59,542 Speaker 2: in Australia New Zealand sort of late eighties, early nineties, 58 00:03:59,622 --> 00:04:02,662 Speaker 2: which is wild. It is it's hard to believe that now, 59 00:04:02,702 --> 00:04:07,342 Speaker 2: But that also sort of coincided with more awareness around 60 00:04:07,342 --> 00:04:10,062 Speaker 2: criminal profiling, and that's sort of what put me on 61 00:04:10,062 --> 00:04:13,862 Speaker 2: a little bit of a pathway to learning more about that. 62 00:04:14,102 --> 00:04:16,462 Speaker 2: And it was a bit of a sliding door moment 63 00:04:16,502 --> 00:04:19,902 Speaker 2: where I was approached having done a talk on profiling 64 00:04:19,902 --> 00:04:23,542 Speaker 2: and sexual crime here in Australia, I was approached by 65 00:04:23,542 --> 00:04:26,502 Speaker 2: a woman from the Education department. This is in nineteen 66 00:04:26,622 --> 00:04:29,102 Speaker 2: ninety five, this is a long time ago. I remember. 67 00:04:29,142 --> 00:04:32,022 Speaker 2: She came up with this big sort of Manila envelope. 68 00:04:32,342 --> 00:04:34,022 Speaker 2: Wasn't even much in the way of emailing and things 69 00:04:34,062 --> 00:04:36,382 Speaker 2: such as that, and she said, look, we're looking to 70 00:04:36,422 --> 00:04:39,542 Speaker 2: team up with somebody with your background who could possibly 71 00:04:39,582 --> 00:04:42,542 Speaker 2: help us put some courses together to go into schools 72 00:04:43,022 --> 00:04:47,462 Speaker 2: and raise awareness around sexual crime, consent that type of thing. 73 00:04:47,902 --> 00:04:50,142 Speaker 2: And she sort of gave me this very heavy envelope 74 00:04:50,142 --> 00:04:52,342 Speaker 2: and I took it away. I had a look at 75 00:04:52,342 --> 00:04:54,702 Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, that maybe something I could 76 00:04:55,262 --> 00:04:58,542 Speaker 2: contribute to. But that was sort of the springboard from 77 00:04:58,902 --> 00:05:01,422 Speaker 2: taking some leave from the police. I did my last 78 00:05:01,462 --> 00:05:04,582 Speaker 2: talk on sexual crime this morning to two hundred boys 79 00:05:04,582 --> 00:05:08,022 Speaker 2: at a boys school in Blacktown. So when I started, 80 00:05:08,702 --> 00:05:12,062 Speaker 2: weirdly the education part only wanted me to talk to 81 00:05:12,822 --> 00:05:17,902 Speaker 2: young women, not boys, which to me was always quite bizarre. 82 00:05:18,222 --> 00:05:21,102 Speaker 2: And then trying to get into schools as a male 83 00:05:21,262 --> 00:05:24,822 Speaker 2: police officer at that time, I came up against a 84 00:05:24,822 --> 00:05:29,382 Speaker 2: heap of resistance from groups who felt that they didn't 85 00:05:29,382 --> 00:05:33,062 Speaker 2: want a male talking to females about this stuff. I 86 00:05:33,182 --> 00:05:36,542 Speaker 2: had situations where I had people physically trying to stop 87 00:05:36,582 --> 00:05:38,942 Speaker 2: me get into a hall to speak to girls because 88 00:05:38,942 --> 00:05:40,662 Speaker 2: I was a male. So you know, there was a 89 00:05:40,662 --> 00:05:43,222 Speaker 2: little bit of resistance there, but I knew where that 90 00:05:43,302 --> 00:05:45,302 Speaker 2: was coming from. It was coming from a good place. 91 00:05:45,342 --> 00:05:47,862 Speaker 2: It wasn't against me so much. It was more like, well, 92 00:05:49,022 --> 00:05:52,742 Speaker 2: it hadn't been done before. We didn't have ex coppers 93 00:05:52,782 --> 00:05:56,022 Speaker 2: walking into schools and speaking to students about sexual crime. 94 00:05:56,502 --> 00:05:58,502 Speaker 2: So when I first started doing it, a lot of 95 00:05:58,542 --> 00:06:01,422 Speaker 2: schools weren't interested. They just wouldn't touch it. And the 96 00:06:01,462 --> 00:06:03,622 Speaker 2: first school that got me in in Australia was actually 97 00:06:03,662 --> 00:06:06,982 Speaker 2: a private girls school in North Sydney, and because they 98 00:06:07,582 --> 00:06:10,422 Speaker 2: are a little bit more autonomous where the state schools 99 00:06:10,502 --> 00:06:13,982 Speaker 2: were going, well where have you been before? And anyway, 100 00:06:14,262 --> 00:06:16,862 Speaker 2: that school that got me in, I've been back there 101 00:06:16,902 --> 00:06:20,862 Speaker 2: every year for twenty nine years. So after a couple 102 00:06:20,862 --> 00:06:23,342 Speaker 2: of years, the Education department said, oh, we can't just 103 00:06:23,422 --> 00:06:27,502 Speaker 2: have you speaking to girls, and I'm going, well, yeah, okay, 104 00:06:27,622 --> 00:06:30,542 Speaker 2: probably smart. So I started speaking to boys. I speak 105 00:06:30,582 --> 00:06:32,902 Speaker 2: to as many young men as I do young women. 106 00:06:33,862 --> 00:06:35,662 Speaker 1: Can you give us an overview of what that looks like. 107 00:06:35,742 --> 00:06:38,822 Speaker 1: Do you have men in one group that you speak 108 00:06:38,862 --> 00:06:41,982 Speaker 1: to women separately? Are they all together and what are 109 00:06:42,022 --> 00:06:42,822 Speaker 1: you teaching them? 110 00:06:43,342 --> 00:06:45,782 Speaker 2: Used to be separate in so much as that the 111 00:06:45,782 --> 00:06:48,622 Speaker 2: coed schools that I was going into started saying, well, look, 112 00:06:48,662 --> 00:06:50,742 Speaker 2: we want you to talk to the boys, but it 113 00:06:50,782 --> 00:06:52,862 Speaker 2: was sort of never, well, we want a cab and 114 00:06:52,902 --> 00:06:55,822 Speaker 2: copy of the girls session, because the session was originally 115 00:06:55,862 --> 00:06:58,702 Speaker 2: designed for young women, because that's what the brief was. 116 00:06:59,302 --> 00:07:02,662 Speaker 2: So when I started talking to young boys, I wanted 117 00:07:02,702 --> 00:07:05,382 Speaker 2: to talk about the same content, but I also wanted 118 00:07:05,382 --> 00:07:08,582 Speaker 2: there to be a specific difference, and so I wanted 119 00:07:08,622 --> 00:07:12,102 Speaker 2: to talk to the boys around choice, consequence, around peer pressure, 120 00:07:12,142 --> 00:07:16,462 Speaker 2: around heartbeat decisions, how they can change your life, and 121 00:07:16,502 --> 00:07:18,942 Speaker 2: a little bit of that was sort of going back 122 00:07:18,982 --> 00:07:20,622 Speaker 2: to some of the troubles I got into as a 123 00:07:20,662 --> 00:07:23,902 Speaker 2: young guy. So I spoke to boys about that. Now 124 00:07:23,942 --> 00:07:27,622 Speaker 2: more frequently they're combined, which I think is good. I 125 00:07:27,742 --> 00:07:29,662 Speaker 2: just ticked over a million students that have gone through 126 00:07:29,702 --> 00:07:31,902 Speaker 2: my talk, so I speak to about thirty thousand, forty 127 00:07:31,942 --> 00:07:35,142 Speaker 2: thousand a year, as many young men as young women. 128 00:07:36,102 --> 00:07:39,782 Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear how the boys in particular react 129 00:07:40,662 --> 00:07:42,702 Speaker 1: when you give them all of this information. What do 130 00:07:42,742 --> 00:07:44,462 Speaker 1: they say to you? What questions do they ask you? 131 00:07:44,742 --> 00:07:47,222 Speaker 2: They ask the same questions the girls do, to be fair, 132 00:07:47,222 --> 00:07:50,102 Speaker 2: but often maybe from a slight different perspective. Back in 133 00:07:50,142 --> 00:07:52,142 Speaker 2: the day, a lot of the girls' schools I was 134 00:07:52,182 --> 00:07:56,222 Speaker 2: going into my presentation went all day. Now I pretty 135 00:07:56,262 --> 00:07:58,782 Speaker 2: much do a presentation which is a couple of hours long, 136 00:07:59,422 --> 00:08:03,502 Speaker 2: year ten, eleven and twelve. Primarily my focus is around 137 00:08:03,902 --> 00:08:08,022 Speaker 2: putting the spotlight on what consent means, how consenters defined 138 00:08:08,702 --> 00:08:12,462 Speaker 2: what sexual intercourse legally means versus inn a biological context. 139 00:08:12,862 --> 00:08:17,382 Speaker 2: They know the slogans around an intimate exchange requires consent. 140 00:08:17,542 --> 00:08:20,022 Speaker 2: It's like, well, yep, they all know that. But then 141 00:08:20,062 --> 00:08:23,382 Speaker 2: if you say, okay, tell me what consent is, how 142 00:08:23,382 --> 00:08:24,622 Speaker 2: do you know you have it? How do you know 143 00:08:24,662 --> 00:08:27,622 Speaker 2: you've provided it? What if a friend comes to talk 144 00:08:27,662 --> 00:08:29,902 Speaker 2: to you about something that they've gone through and they're 145 00:08:29,942 --> 00:08:31,742 Speaker 2: sort of asking you, do you think I consented or 146 00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:35,022 Speaker 2: didn't I? Where are you drawing your answers from on that? 147 00:08:35,782 --> 00:08:39,142 Speaker 2: So leaving the police, I thought the last thing that 148 00:08:39,262 --> 00:08:42,702 Speaker 2: students would want to hear in my seminars is legal stuff. 149 00:08:43,582 --> 00:08:46,742 Speaker 2: It's ninety nine percent of the questions I get are 150 00:08:46,822 --> 00:08:50,422 Speaker 2: legal questions, and it gives clarity for them. So we 151 00:08:50,462 --> 00:08:53,942 Speaker 2: look at a term, say, for example, like consent, then 152 00:08:53,942 --> 00:08:57,582 Speaker 2: I break it into its three legal components, age, effects 153 00:08:57,582 --> 00:09:00,822 Speaker 2: of our colon drugs, and whether the permission was given freely. 154 00:09:00,902 --> 00:09:03,742 Speaker 2: So we put the spotlight on those three. But I 155 00:09:03,782 --> 00:09:06,622 Speaker 2: go from defining what it is to running it through 156 00:09:06,662 --> 00:09:09,542 Speaker 2: real life scenarios for them and giving them really easy 157 00:09:09,622 --> 00:09:14,662 Speaker 2: checkpoints around it. So rather than assuming that because all 158 00:09:14,862 --> 00:09:18,462 Speaker 2: year eleven, year twelve students know a drunk person can't consent, well, 159 00:09:18,462 --> 00:09:21,262 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they know what the test is legally. 160 00:09:21,422 --> 00:09:23,582 Speaker 2: They've got no idea what the test is. So they 161 00:09:23,622 --> 00:09:26,582 Speaker 2: know the slogan, but they don't really know what it means. 162 00:09:27,142 --> 00:09:30,982 Speaker 2: So I explain to them how it's defined legally. Then 163 00:09:31,022 --> 00:09:35,022 Speaker 2: I give them the practical application of that in a 164 00:09:35,062 --> 00:09:37,622 Speaker 2: party environment or something like that. So I'm hoping that 165 00:09:38,302 --> 00:09:41,302 Speaker 2: they can walk out with these key things around in 166 00:09:41,342 --> 00:09:44,782 Speaker 2: that instance around consent. Consent is a very complex thing, 167 00:09:45,622 --> 00:09:48,702 Speaker 2: but my job is to simplify it but still have 168 00:09:48,742 --> 00:09:54,222 Speaker 2: application to the law. Talking about things like sexual intercourse 169 00:09:54,262 --> 00:09:58,382 Speaker 2: without consent. I get disclosures every week, and it's usually 170 00:09:58,382 --> 00:10:01,662 Speaker 2: young women. The bulk of them say to me, look, 171 00:10:01,742 --> 00:10:05,022 Speaker 2: I didn't actually know that what happened to me was 172 00:10:05,102 --> 00:10:08,342 Speaker 2: a criminal offense or what the offense was until I 173 00:10:08,422 --> 00:10:13,902 Speaker 2: heard all these definitions. Simple stuff like the term sexual intercourse. 174 00:10:14,302 --> 00:10:16,022 Speaker 2: I mean, they all have heard the term, but the 175 00:10:16,062 --> 00:10:18,342 Speaker 2: definition that they have at high school comes from a 176 00:10:18,382 --> 00:10:22,422 Speaker 2: biology textbook which bears no resemblance to the law. So 177 00:10:22,582 --> 00:10:26,822 Speaker 2: just giving that piece of information, that opens up a 178 00:10:26,902 --> 00:10:29,622 Speaker 2: whole lot of Oh my goodness, I've been through this, 179 00:10:30,422 --> 00:10:32,022 Speaker 2: but I didn't know that when I went through that 180 00:10:32,342 --> 00:10:35,982 Speaker 2: it fell into that legal category. A really common question 181 00:10:36,062 --> 00:10:39,422 Speaker 2: I get speaking to young women is what if somebody 182 00:10:39,502 --> 00:10:42,542 Speaker 2: does something to me sexually without my consent, but it 183 00:10:42,582 --> 00:10:47,502 Speaker 2: doesn't go as far as intercourse. Now, people know that's wrong, 184 00:10:47,582 --> 00:10:50,822 Speaker 2: people know that that shouldn't happen, But respectfully, most people 185 00:10:50,822 --> 00:10:54,062 Speaker 2: would struggle to tell you what that offense is and 186 00:10:54,142 --> 00:10:56,822 Speaker 2: what the ingredients are of it. That's the most common 187 00:10:56,862 --> 00:11:01,142 Speaker 2: disclosure I get, particularly in co ed schools, often young 188 00:11:01,182 --> 00:11:03,622 Speaker 2: women coming forward after my talk saying I had no 189 00:11:03,782 --> 00:11:08,382 Speaker 2: idea of that unlawful sexual touching, stuff that's happened to 190 00:11:08,422 --> 00:11:11,422 Speaker 2: me heaps without getting the malodrum about it. Each time 191 00:11:11,462 --> 00:11:13,742 Speaker 2: someone does that in New South Wales carries a five 192 00:11:13,782 --> 00:11:16,982 Speaker 2: year in prisonment term. I've had young women come forward 193 00:11:17,062 --> 00:11:20,382 Speaker 2: say oh, that's happened to me every day at school 194 00:11:20,382 --> 00:11:20,902 Speaker 2: this term. 195 00:11:21,622 --> 00:11:24,182 Speaker 1: Does it surprise you the amount of women that come forward? 196 00:11:24,302 --> 00:11:28,022 Speaker 2: No? No, not after thirty years. Yeah, doesn't surprise me. 197 00:11:28,582 --> 00:11:30,822 Speaker 2: I'm more surprised when not too many come forward. 198 00:11:31,702 --> 00:11:33,662 Speaker 1: Has it changed? You know you said you did your 199 00:11:33,702 --> 00:11:37,622 Speaker 1: first seminar in nineteen ninety five. Are women more knowledgeable 200 00:11:37,622 --> 00:11:38,542 Speaker 1: now more confident? 201 00:11:38,862 --> 00:11:42,222 Speaker 2: I think so. I think there's sometimes a confusion that 202 00:11:42,382 --> 00:11:46,142 Speaker 2: because we have more disclosures, because we probably have more 203 00:11:46,142 --> 00:11:50,222 Speaker 2: cases reported, that it's happening more. I don't think that 204 00:11:50,382 --> 00:11:52,782 Speaker 2: is the case. I don't think there's really much in 205 00:11:52,822 --> 00:11:55,622 Speaker 2: the way of evidence to show that we have a 206 00:11:55,782 --> 00:12:01,062 Speaker 2: increase in sexual crime against young women in Australia compared 207 00:12:01,062 --> 00:12:03,782 Speaker 2: to nineteen ninety five to today. But what we do have, 208 00:12:03,982 --> 00:12:06,862 Speaker 2: as you quite rightly point out, there's a lot more knowledge, 209 00:12:06,982 --> 00:12:09,262 Speaker 2: and you know people can access all of this online. 210 00:12:09,782 --> 00:12:12,022 Speaker 2: That can be good bad because you don't know how 211 00:12:12,062 --> 00:12:15,862 Speaker 2: reliable the information is that they're getting courses going into 212 00:12:15,902 --> 00:12:21,182 Speaker 2: schools currently talking about consent things which are appalling. So 213 00:12:21,222 --> 00:12:24,422 Speaker 2: there's a lot of misinformation out there. I come from 214 00:12:24,422 --> 00:12:26,382 Speaker 2: that policing background, and I've done this for a long 215 00:12:26,422 --> 00:12:28,782 Speaker 2: long time, so I don't go outside of those rails. 216 00:12:29,182 --> 00:12:31,902 Speaker 2: I think there is no doubt that we are seeing 217 00:12:31,942 --> 00:12:37,582 Speaker 2: an increase in reporting, but I think that's indicative of 218 00:12:37,582 --> 00:12:41,622 Speaker 2: an increase in people becoming more aware. Statistics would suggest 219 00:12:41,662 --> 00:12:44,582 Speaker 2: there's no massive increase in incidences. 220 00:12:45,542 --> 00:12:47,982 Speaker 1: A lot of what you do is actually giving the 221 00:12:48,102 --> 00:12:51,902 Speaker 1: tools to your students, a lot of whom are women, 222 00:12:51,982 --> 00:12:55,822 Speaker 1: about how to actually physically and mentally protect themselves if 223 00:12:55,822 --> 00:12:58,302 Speaker 1: they're in a situation. And I want to address this 224 00:12:58,382 --> 00:13:00,942 Speaker 1: question first because I can imagine it's been put to you. 225 00:13:02,502 --> 00:13:04,462 Speaker 1: Some might say that the owners shouldn't be on women 226 00:13:04,782 --> 00:13:07,982 Speaker 1: to kind of change their behavior and learn the tactics, 227 00:13:08,022 --> 00:13:11,462 Speaker 1: that it should be on teaching men. Definitely, what do 228 00:13:11,502 --> 00:13:12,062 Speaker 1: you say to that. 229 00:13:12,102 --> 00:13:14,862 Speaker 2: I agree one hundred percent, but that's not going to 230 00:13:14,902 --> 00:13:18,982 Speaker 2: help a woman who this afternoon is confronted an ideological 231 00:13:19,062 --> 00:13:21,782 Speaker 2: view that we should come up with something that stops 232 00:13:21,822 --> 00:13:23,822 Speaker 2: men from doing this. You won't get any argument from 233 00:13:23,862 --> 00:13:26,582 Speaker 2: me I present to more young men I do young women. 234 00:13:26,822 --> 00:13:29,582 Speaker 2: I've got a son and a daughter. Of course, in 235 00:13:29,622 --> 00:13:33,862 Speaker 2: a perfect world, firstly, the stuff wouldn't happen. Secondly, if 236 00:13:33,862 --> 00:13:35,902 Speaker 2: it does, we'd be able to address those who do 237 00:13:35,942 --> 00:13:39,102 Speaker 2: it and they'd stop. Now, we can reduce this stuff, 238 00:13:39,862 --> 00:13:43,422 Speaker 2: but we're never going to stop it completely. In my book, 239 00:13:43,462 --> 00:13:45,822 Speaker 2: I put forward a lot of different strategies and things 240 00:13:45,822 --> 00:13:48,862 Speaker 2: such as that based on the psychology of the type 241 00:13:48,862 --> 00:13:51,382 Speaker 2: of offender that you're up against. I don't do that anymore. 242 00:13:51,742 --> 00:13:54,302 Speaker 2: And the reason I don't do it anymore is because 243 00:13:54,982 --> 00:13:57,662 Speaker 2: I've always walked this thin line as a male presenting 244 00:13:57,662 --> 00:14:00,302 Speaker 2: on the stuff anyway, as a next police officer, you know, 245 00:14:00,342 --> 00:14:03,182 Speaker 2: I've always been a very very easy target for people 246 00:14:03,902 --> 00:14:07,142 Speaker 2: to push back against this, you know, and that target 247 00:14:07,182 --> 00:14:11,142 Speaker 2: became even bigger in more recent times because, in the 248 00:14:11,142 --> 00:14:15,102 Speaker 2: eyes of many, I had the audacity to share strategies 249 00:14:15,142 --> 00:14:17,782 Speaker 2: with young women to help them get out of these situations. 250 00:14:17,942 --> 00:14:21,102 Speaker 2: So I don't do it anymore now. The downside to 251 00:14:21,142 --> 00:14:25,662 Speaker 2: that is that might ideologically make some people feel better 252 00:14:25,862 --> 00:14:29,502 Speaker 2: about themselves because they've stopped this police officer going into 253 00:14:29,502 --> 00:14:33,782 Speaker 2: schools and teaching strategies the downside is I taught a 254 00:14:33,822 --> 00:14:38,542 Speaker 2: strategy for probably twenty five years to young women on 255 00:14:38,582 --> 00:14:41,062 Speaker 2: how to get out of a date rape situation, and 256 00:14:41,102 --> 00:14:45,342 Speaker 2: I never ever had one person contact me to tell 257 00:14:45,342 --> 00:14:48,462 Speaker 2: me that that strategy had failed. Ever. But I don't 258 00:14:48,462 --> 00:14:52,182 Speaker 2: teach it anymore because I got so much pushback more 259 00:14:52,222 --> 00:14:55,422 Speaker 2: recently going into schools about teaching strategy, and that was 260 00:14:55,462 --> 00:15:00,542 Speaker 2: then victim blaming. So I'm supportive of all of this stuff, 261 00:15:01,662 --> 00:15:04,462 Speaker 2: but I know also working at the coal Face, that 262 00:15:04,742 --> 00:15:07,222 Speaker 2: some of this stuff, even if it's done with good intent, 263 00:15:08,062 --> 00:15:11,742 Speaker 2: the end result is detrimental to those who I'm trying 264 00:15:11,742 --> 00:15:13,142 Speaker 2: to help see. 265 00:15:13,182 --> 00:15:17,062 Speaker 1: I read through those strategies and felt quite empowered by them, 266 00:15:17,062 --> 00:15:20,622 Speaker 1: so I'm surprised to hear that people have pushed back 267 00:15:20,662 --> 00:15:21,582 Speaker 1: against you sharing them. 268 00:15:21,622 --> 00:15:23,622 Speaker 2: Well, the only people who push back are people who've 269 00:15:23,662 --> 00:15:26,102 Speaker 2: never read my book or never attended one of my seminars, 270 00:15:26,102 --> 00:15:28,942 Speaker 2: but they're very vocal. But you know, after all these years, 271 00:15:29,702 --> 00:15:31,502 Speaker 2: I just sort of thought, well, you know what, I'm 272 00:15:31,542 --> 00:15:33,182 Speaker 2: going to keep going and I'm going to doing my 273 00:15:33,302 --> 00:15:35,942 Speaker 2: talks and when people ask me about strategy, I say, yeah, 274 00:15:35,942 --> 00:15:37,942 Speaker 2: I've got some fantastic strategies that you can have a 275 00:15:37,942 --> 00:15:38,902 Speaker 2: look into my book. 276 00:15:38,702 --> 00:15:42,902 Speaker 1: And things bring it on. There is a bit of 277 00:15:42,902 --> 00:15:46,062 Speaker 1: advice that floats around a lot. Yes, with women, if 278 00:15:46,102 --> 00:15:48,662 Speaker 1: you are presented with a situation where someone is trying 279 00:15:48,702 --> 00:15:52,222 Speaker 1: to physically or sexually hurt you, to submit to them. Yes, 280 00:15:53,462 --> 00:15:55,542 Speaker 1: Why do you think that that is a very bad idea. 281 00:15:56,222 --> 00:15:58,542 Speaker 2: I think it's a bad idea in sexual crime particularly. Look, 282 00:15:58,542 --> 00:16:00,302 Speaker 2: don't get me wrong. If I walked out of here 283 00:16:00,302 --> 00:16:02,782 Speaker 2: today and somebody attacked me in a side street here 284 00:16:02,782 --> 00:16:04,502 Speaker 2: in willem Aloo and one of my wallet, I'd probably 285 00:16:04,542 --> 00:16:06,422 Speaker 2: hand it over to them. Now, I'm one hundred and 286 00:16:06,502 --> 00:16:09,142 Speaker 2: five kilos, I've got no neck, you know. But I 287 00:16:09,182 --> 00:16:11,142 Speaker 2: know the person that confronts me, he is a desperate 288 00:16:11,182 --> 00:16:15,622 Speaker 2: person because I probably wouldn't confront me. Does that make sense? 289 00:16:16,342 --> 00:16:19,182 Speaker 2: So I don't want to make a bad situation even worse. 290 00:16:19,542 --> 00:16:22,742 Speaker 2: So sometimes the best thing to do is the opposite 291 00:16:22,782 --> 00:16:24,702 Speaker 2: to what we're told. See, guys aren't told to do that. 292 00:16:25,262 --> 00:16:27,342 Speaker 2: Guys are told if someone fronts up to you monst 293 00:16:27,342 --> 00:16:30,782 Speaker 2: your wallet, you'd stand your ground, you puff your chest out. Well, 294 00:16:30,822 --> 00:16:33,222 Speaker 2: I've been in more physical confrontations and most blokes have 295 00:16:33,302 --> 00:16:35,942 Speaker 2: had hot dinners, and I wouldn't do that, So I 296 00:16:35,942 --> 00:16:39,102 Speaker 2: would never encourage someone to do that. Now, when we 297 00:16:39,142 --> 00:16:42,142 Speaker 2: flick that over to sexual crime, why is my message different? 298 00:16:42,422 --> 00:16:45,822 Speaker 2: Because the psychology of the person who selects you as 299 00:16:45,862 --> 00:16:48,182 Speaker 2: a young woman to commit a sexual offense against you, 300 00:16:48,222 --> 00:16:52,222 Speaker 2: the stranger offender, he is a totally different psychological study 301 00:16:52,262 --> 00:16:55,182 Speaker 2: than the person who confronts me. See, I look like 302 00:16:55,182 --> 00:16:58,462 Speaker 2: i'd fight back. So if I do that, I'm actually 303 00:16:58,462 --> 00:17:01,982 Speaker 2: doing what they're anticipating. Nobody is going to confront me 304 00:17:02,822 --> 00:17:05,662 Speaker 2: my size and think that I'm going to curl up 305 00:17:05,662 --> 00:17:07,782 Speaker 2: on the ground and with my hands in there. They 306 00:17:07,782 --> 00:17:09,742 Speaker 2: think I'm going to fight back, so I to empower 307 00:17:09,742 --> 00:17:12,342 Speaker 2: them by not doing that. Now, if we look at 308 00:17:12,382 --> 00:17:14,702 Speaker 2: the psychology of offender who selects you, and this is 309 00:17:14,742 --> 00:17:18,022 Speaker 2: not an indictment on you, it's a reflection on why 310 00:17:18,022 --> 00:17:22,142 Speaker 2: you're selected. You're selected by a sex offender because he believes, 311 00:17:22,182 --> 00:17:25,542 Speaker 2: because you're female, you won't fight back. So you've got 312 00:17:25,582 --> 00:17:28,982 Speaker 2: to start working from that psychology. So, on the one hand, 313 00:17:29,142 --> 00:17:32,742 Speaker 2: you're quite right. There's been a generational message to girls 314 00:17:32,742 --> 00:17:35,862 Speaker 2: and women handed down from their mums, which were handed 315 00:17:35,902 --> 00:17:38,342 Speaker 2: down from their mums. So now we're back over one 316 00:17:38,382 --> 00:17:41,302 Speaker 2: hundred years that the worst thing you could possibly do 317 00:17:41,902 --> 00:17:44,942 Speaker 2: against that unknown sexual offender, who might I add as 318 00:17:44,982 --> 00:17:47,302 Speaker 2: a very rare form of sexual crime, but it's something 319 00:17:47,302 --> 00:17:50,182 Speaker 2: that occupies the minds of a lot of people because 320 00:17:50,222 --> 00:17:52,942 Speaker 2: it brings to life what we see in TV in 321 00:17:52,982 --> 00:17:55,862 Speaker 2: the movies. Ninety nine point nine percent of sexual offenders 322 00:17:55,862 --> 00:17:59,382 Speaker 2: that are depicted through those services are strangers, even though 323 00:17:59,382 --> 00:18:02,542 Speaker 2: they make up a tiny percentage of sexual crime. But 324 00:18:02,742 --> 00:18:05,622 Speaker 2: I get that every woman I've ever met in my 325 00:18:05,782 --> 00:18:10,422 Speaker 2: life has a desire to know what would you add 326 00:18:10,462 --> 00:18:14,662 Speaker 2: actually do in that situation. So my approach has always been, Okay, well, 327 00:18:14,702 --> 00:18:17,502 Speaker 2: let's look at the psychology of it. I get them 328 00:18:17,542 --> 00:18:19,662 Speaker 2: to imagine, say, walking home from school on their own, 329 00:18:20,342 --> 00:18:23,062 Speaker 2: car drives past slowly. Lone male offender in the car, 330 00:18:23,182 --> 00:18:25,822 Speaker 2: you know, looks at the young woman, pulls up twenty 331 00:18:25,862 --> 00:18:29,302 Speaker 2: minutes away, gets out of the car, which is making 332 00:18:29,342 --> 00:18:32,062 Speaker 2: the young woman feel afraid. And I get to the 333 00:18:32,062 --> 00:18:34,302 Speaker 2: point of saying, this guy runs out of the car 334 00:18:34,342 --> 00:18:36,502 Speaker 2: and he grabs you, and he's taking you back towards 335 00:18:36,542 --> 00:18:40,742 Speaker 2: the car, and I say, what I want you to 336 00:18:40,742 --> 00:18:43,662 Speaker 2: do is I want you to picture yourself in that situation, 337 00:18:43,742 --> 00:18:46,822 Speaker 2: at that moment yelling and screaming at the top of 338 00:18:46,862 --> 00:18:51,782 Speaker 2: your voice and physically attacking your attacker, and then I 339 00:18:51,822 --> 00:18:55,222 Speaker 2: stop it there. And the most common reaction I've got 340 00:18:55,262 --> 00:18:57,462 Speaker 2: over the years of doing that is the girls will laugh. 341 00:18:58,782 --> 00:19:01,662 Speaker 2: The laughter is the thought that they would actually see 342 00:19:01,702 --> 00:19:05,902 Speaker 2: themselves fighting a back against a man attacker. It's like, yeah, right, 343 00:19:05,942 --> 00:19:08,382 Speaker 2: as if you do that. So this is where we 344 00:19:08,462 --> 00:19:12,702 Speaker 2: work from, right, because the way the girls are reacting 345 00:19:13,502 --> 00:19:16,222 Speaker 2: is not through the experience of having been in the situation. 346 00:19:16,742 --> 00:19:20,942 Speaker 2: They're reacting to their conditioning. So in any conflict situation 347 00:19:21,102 --> 00:19:24,182 Speaker 2: you or I find ourselves in, we're not really responding 348 00:19:24,222 --> 00:19:28,182 Speaker 2: to the situation. We've carried into the situation our conditioning. 349 00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:30,542 Speaker 2: If you're trained to do the right thing, that's brilliant. 350 00:19:30,982 --> 00:19:34,062 Speaker 2: If you're trained to do the wrong thing, that's not great. So, okay, 351 00:19:34,222 --> 00:19:36,462 Speaker 2: this guy had hold of you, dragging in toowards the car. 352 00:19:36,782 --> 00:19:39,462 Speaker 2: If you start yelling and screaming fight back, what would 353 00:19:39,462 --> 00:19:42,422 Speaker 2: happen to the guy? What would he become? And they 354 00:19:42,462 --> 00:19:46,262 Speaker 2: all like or get more angry, So there's our first barrier. 355 00:19:46,862 --> 00:19:48,662 Speaker 2: Next thing I say is if the guy does get 356 00:19:48,662 --> 00:19:53,382 Speaker 2: more angry because of how you respond, will that increase 357 00:19:53,582 --> 00:19:57,342 Speaker 2: or decrease the likelihood of him physically hurting you. Now 358 00:19:57,382 --> 00:20:01,622 Speaker 2: they're also a little increase. It's obvious he's an aggressive, 359 00:20:01,622 --> 00:20:04,382 Speaker 2: angry person and he's violent. He's going to become more violent. 360 00:20:05,102 --> 00:20:07,982 Speaker 2: Then the third thing I says, if you respond in 361 00:20:07,982 --> 00:20:10,342 Speaker 2: a way that you believe will make this guy more 362 00:20:10,502 --> 00:20:13,022 Speaker 2: angry and that will increase the lightlihood of you getting hurt, 363 00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:16,702 Speaker 2: would you say that the situation for you as a 364 00:20:16,782 --> 00:20:19,222 Speaker 2: result of that response is going to get better or worse? 365 00:20:19,662 --> 00:20:23,902 Speaker 2: That will say, well, worse. So that just explains why 366 00:20:24,022 --> 00:20:26,782 Speaker 2: so many don't fight back. All I've got them to 367 00:20:26,862 --> 00:20:30,862 Speaker 2: do is to tell me what they've been conditioned to believe. Now, interestingly, 368 00:20:30,902 --> 00:20:33,502 Speaker 2: if you look at any studies on this, the success 369 00:20:33,582 --> 00:20:35,822 Speaker 2: rate of women yelling and screaming and fighting back against 370 00:20:35,902 --> 00:20:39,262 Speaker 2: unarmed sex offenders is over ninety percent. You couldn't find 371 00:20:39,302 --> 00:20:43,422 Speaker 2: a study that would dispute that. All the research, all 372 00:20:43,462 --> 00:20:47,702 Speaker 2: the study, all the psychology provides the totally different information 373 00:20:47,822 --> 00:20:50,462 Speaker 2: and knowledge than conditioning, because where do people get their 374 00:20:50,462 --> 00:20:54,342 Speaker 2: conditioning from? TV? Movies? So what I do is I'll say, okay, 375 00:20:54,422 --> 00:20:56,982 Speaker 2: let's break this down. When that guy drives past you 376 00:20:57,102 --> 00:20:58,862 Speaker 2: and sees you, why does he stop the car and 377 00:20:58,942 --> 00:21:02,102 Speaker 2: get out? And sometimes I'll say, do you reckon? If 378 00:21:02,142 --> 00:21:04,342 Speaker 2: I was walking down the street, that guy would stop 379 00:21:04,342 --> 00:21:07,542 Speaker 2: and confront me, and they'll laugh, of course, not what 380 00:21:07,622 --> 00:21:09,582 Speaker 2: do I look like I do? Or you'd look like 381 00:21:09,622 --> 00:21:13,102 Speaker 2: you'd fight back. So it's interesting here, isn't it. They're 382 00:21:13,102 --> 00:21:15,382 Speaker 2: saying the reason he'll drive away from you is you 383 00:21:15,422 --> 00:21:19,022 Speaker 2: look like you'll defend yourself. The reason he selects them 384 00:21:19,142 --> 00:21:21,582 Speaker 2: is they look like they won't and then they're told 385 00:21:21,702 --> 00:21:24,982 Speaker 2: not to. You can just see these lights going on 386 00:21:25,062 --> 00:21:27,822 Speaker 2: like this, Hang on, I've been sold a bit of 387 00:21:27,822 --> 00:21:31,342 Speaker 2: a lemon here, you know. I take them into the 388 00:21:31,382 --> 00:21:34,062 Speaker 2: mind of the offender, and I said that offender's driving 389 00:21:34,102 --> 00:21:36,542 Speaker 2: around a car looking for an ideal target. This is 390 00:21:36,582 --> 00:21:38,862 Speaker 2: what they say when you interview them. You know, I'm 391 00:21:38,902 --> 00:21:42,342 Speaker 2: looking for somebody who will follow the script that I've 392 00:21:42,382 --> 00:21:46,102 Speaker 2: written for them, so he will select only somebody who 393 00:21:46,142 --> 00:21:49,742 Speaker 2: he believes will offer no resistance. And I'll say something 394 00:21:49,902 --> 00:21:52,982 Speaker 2: like with the sex offenders I've interviewed that I've written 395 00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:55,462 Speaker 2: books about and what have you. If he had a 396 00:21:55,462 --> 00:21:58,822 Speaker 2: crystal ball on the dashboard of his car and he 397 00:21:58,942 --> 00:22:01,102 Speaker 2: drove past you, and he looked into the crystal ball, 398 00:22:01,302 --> 00:22:04,382 Speaker 2: and he could see how you would respond if he 399 00:22:04,422 --> 00:22:08,942 Speaker 2: saw you yelling, screaming, running, fighting back. Every single offender 400 00:22:09,022 --> 00:22:11,942 Speaker 2: I have ever interviewed keep on driving. But he doesn't 401 00:22:11,982 --> 00:22:15,502 Speaker 2: see that. He sees you as being somebody who will 402 00:22:15,502 --> 00:22:20,222 Speaker 2: probably submit. Now, these girls and women are told that's 403 00:22:20,262 --> 00:22:24,302 Speaker 2: the safest option. Now, it's an option if a guy 404 00:22:24,342 --> 00:22:29,062 Speaker 2: produces a weapon police are trained to submit to talking about. 405 00:22:29,182 --> 00:22:33,542 Speaker 2: But sex offenders in Australia hardly ever carry weapons. So 406 00:22:33,622 --> 00:22:36,142 Speaker 2: it's breaking all that down. And it's not actually even 407 00:22:36,222 --> 00:22:38,622 Speaker 2: me telling the audience what they should and shouldn't do. 408 00:22:38,942 --> 00:22:41,742 Speaker 2: It's just presenting them with information that they didn't have. 409 00:22:42,702 --> 00:22:45,182 Speaker 2: So you've got four options when that guy jumps out 410 00:22:45,222 --> 00:22:47,782 Speaker 2: of the car. You can be submissive. That gives you 411 00:22:47,822 --> 00:22:51,262 Speaker 2: no chance. You can yell and scream. That'll work probably 412 00:22:51,302 --> 00:22:53,942 Speaker 2: fifty percent of the time. If you combine yelling and 413 00:22:53,942 --> 00:22:58,662 Speaker 2: screaming with physical confrontation, your success rates so high you'd 414 00:22:58,702 --> 00:23:00,822 Speaker 2: be hard pressed finding anyone who's done it who hasn't 415 00:23:00,862 --> 00:23:01,302 Speaker 2: got away. 416 00:23:02,702 --> 00:23:05,582 Speaker 1: So why aren't more people teaching us this? 417 00:23:06,542 --> 00:23:06,982 Speaker 2: I don't know. 418 00:23:08,542 --> 00:23:10,182 Speaker 1: You're right. I had a light bulb moment when I 419 00:23:10,182 --> 00:23:13,062 Speaker 1: read and I went, why on earth would I just 420 00:23:13,982 --> 00:23:17,022 Speaker 1: happily get into a car with someone who is trying. 421 00:23:17,022 --> 00:23:20,022 Speaker 2: Because you've been conditioned to believe anything else will make 422 00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:22,622 Speaker 2: it worse. But then you've got to stop and go, Okay, 423 00:23:23,182 --> 00:23:25,662 Speaker 2: that person who's put me into that car, what are 424 00:23:25,662 --> 00:23:28,542 Speaker 2: his intentions? See, I'm going to say to that young woman, 425 00:23:28,622 --> 00:23:32,222 Speaker 2: you're in the can't get worse basket? You're there? Yeah, 426 00:23:32,302 --> 00:23:35,422 Speaker 2: Now can I just stay? Also, the better option than 427 00:23:35,542 --> 00:23:38,982 Speaker 2: yelling and screaming and fighting back is running. If you 428 00:23:39,022 --> 00:23:41,182 Speaker 2: can run, you run, you run, you yell, you scream, 429 00:23:41,262 --> 00:23:43,182 Speaker 2: you get to somewhere where there's people. Because these guys 430 00:23:43,222 --> 00:23:47,462 Speaker 2: are terrified. They're terrified to getting caught, absolutely paranoid to 431 00:23:47,502 --> 00:23:51,542 Speaker 2: getting caught, and they're totally unprepared for anything other than submission. 432 00:23:51,702 --> 00:23:54,142 Speaker 2: So running is the best option. But we have to 433 00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:56,742 Speaker 2: accept that there are some circumstances where young women have 434 00:23:56,862 --> 00:24:00,102 Speaker 2: said I was grabbed, I couldn't run, It wasn't an option. 435 00:24:00,822 --> 00:24:03,382 Speaker 2: If running is not available, the next best option, well, 436 00:24:03,422 --> 00:24:07,702 Speaker 2: what is it? Submission? That would be disputed by every 437 00:24:07,742 --> 00:24:10,262 Speaker 2: study ever done on rape psychology as a strategy that 438 00:24:10,622 --> 00:24:14,982 Speaker 2: anything more than make the situation worse. So anything is 439 00:24:14,982 --> 00:24:15,582 Speaker 2: better than that. 440 00:24:20,942 --> 00:24:24,942 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath. 441 00:24:25,582 --> 00:24:29,062 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Brent Sanders about how to protect yourself 442 00:24:29,182 --> 00:24:33,342 Speaker 1: from sexual crime. Up next, we break down what consent 443 00:24:33,662 --> 00:24:43,382 Speaker 1: actually means. I want to give listeners a real life 444 00:24:43,422 --> 00:24:45,902 Speaker 1: example because it's so easy to say all the studies 445 00:24:45,902 --> 00:24:49,662 Speaker 1: say it doesn't work, but you actually give real life examples. 446 00:24:49,742 --> 00:24:53,182 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, there's a serial rapist in New Zealand by 447 00:24:53,182 --> 00:24:53,702 Speaker 1: the names. 448 00:24:53,502 --> 00:24:54,342 Speaker 2: Of Joseph Thompson. 449 00:24:54,582 --> 00:24:56,902 Speaker 1: Can you take us through what he did, because it's 450 00:24:57,142 --> 00:24:58,382 Speaker 1: proof that this is true. 451 00:24:58,822 --> 00:25:01,102 Speaker 2: I just give more the information and you would not 452 00:25:01,222 --> 00:25:04,422 Speaker 2: find a serial sex offender that's been profiled since Albert DeSalvo. 453 00:25:04,542 --> 00:25:07,702 Speaker 2: He was the first ever profiled sex offender. He raped 454 00:25:07,702 --> 00:25:10,542 Speaker 2: and murdered a dozen or more women between c. Next 455 00:25:10,662 --> 00:25:13,542 Speaker 2: two and sixty four. Was arrested in charge. But you 456 00:25:13,582 --> 00:25:15,582 Speaker 2: know he was interviewed by homicide detects because in the 457 00:25:15,622 --> 00:25:18,102 Speaker 2: sixties there were no sex crimes detectors. There was a 458 00:25:18,102 --> 00:25:21,822 Speaker 2: book written about him, The Boston Strangler. I quote that 459 00:25:21,902 --> 00:25:24,542 Speaker 2: book in my book because it's the first ever book 460 00:25:24,622 --> 00:25:29,222 Speaker 2: written about a serial rapist. He's the first one ever studied. 461 00:25:29,982 --> 00:25:32,102 Speaker 2: And as I read through that book, there were things 462 00:25:32,142 --> 00:25:34,942 Speaker 2: jumping off the page at me, because they're the same 463 00:25:34,982 --> 00:25:37,422 Speaker 2: as if I sat down and interviewed a sex offender today. 464 00:25:38,062 --> 00:25:40,382 Speaker 2: One of the classic quotes from him is he was asked, 465 00:25:41,022 --> 00:25:43,822 Speaker 2: how many women do you believe you've attacked in your lifetime? 466 00:25:44,102 --> 00:25:46,742 Speaker 2: And he said, oh, I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 467 00:25:46,982 --> 00:25:49,542 Speaker 2: So I committed my kim my first rate when I 468 00:25:49,622 --> 00:25:52,702 Speaker 2: was sixteen, So I remember that one like it was yesterday. 469 00:25:52,742 --> 00:25:56,302 Speaker 2: I remember everything about it. He said. Since then, some 470 00:25:56,462 --> 00:25:58,782 Speaker 2: days I won't attack any girls and women. Some days 471 00:25:58,822 --> 00:26:02,102 Speaker 2: I might attacked two or three. Then he was asked 472 00:26:02,622 --> 00:26:04,942 Speaker 2: about those that he attacked, those that he didn't, and stuff, 473 00:26:04,942 --> 00:26:07,182 Speaker 2: and he basically in one of the statements he said, 474 00:26:07,702 --> 00:26:10,182 Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many girls and women I've selected. 475 00:26:10,942 --> 00:26:12,302 Speaker 2: He said, what I can tell you of all the 476 00:26:12,302 --> 00:26:14,222 Speaker 2: women I selected, the only ones who I didn't rate 477 00:26:14,262 --> 00:26:16,662 Speaker 2: were the ones who fought back. Now, there wouldn't have 478 00:26:16,662 --> 00:26:21,502 Speaker 2: been too many women who would have been told to 479 00:26:21,542 --> 00:26:24,982 Speaker 2: do anything other than to do exactly what this guy wants. 480 00:26:25,942 --> 00:26:28,702 Speaker 2: Following his arrest, he said he was killing his victims. 481 00:26:29,022 --> 00:26:30,542 Speaker 2: The only ones I ran away from were the ones 482 00:26:30,542 --> 00:26:32,502 Speaker 2: who fought back then you come forward, like you say. 483 00:26:32,542 --> 00:26:34,902 Speaker 2: Joseph Thompson. Joseph Thompson was a New Zealand offender who 484 00:26:34,942 --> 00:26:38,142 Speaker 2: I profiled. He was an offender in his thirties or nearly. 485 00:26:38,142 --> 00:26:41,342 Speaker 2: All of his targets were young school girls. So he 486 00:26:41,422 --> 00:26:43,102 Speaker 2: was asked in an interview why do you attack so 487 00:26:43,142 --> 00:26:45,982 Speaker 2: many school girls? And he just he shrugged his shoulder 488 00:26:46,022 --> 00:26:47,982 Speaker 2: and says, oh, because school girls don't fight back. What 489 00:26:48,022 --> 00:26:50,782 Speaker 2: do you think I picked school girls? You look at 490 00:26:50,822 --> 00:26:53,422 Speaker 2: some of these other offenders that I've worked with, and 491 00:26:53,462 --> 00:26:58,342 Speaker 2: they all make these same comments. There's no exception. Now, 492 00:26:58,862 --> 00:27:02,502 Speaker 2: we can't say with absolute certainty what will happen every 493 00:27:02,542 --> 00:27:04,782 Speaker 2: time one of these type offenders attacks every one of 494 00:27:04,822 --> 00:27:07,582 Speaker 2: their targets. But what we can do is look at 495 00:27:07,582 --> 00:27:10,102 Speaker 2: all the studies, all the research from fifty odd years ago, 496 00:27:10,582 --> 00:27:13,182 Speaker 2: nearly sixty years ago coming forward, and you won't find 497 00:27:13,222 --> 00:27:16,742 Speaker 2: any much in the way discrepancy. Here. You mentioned Ted Bundy. 498 00:27:17,142 --> 00:27:19,222 Speaker 2: The woman who gave evidence against Ted Bundy was the 499 00:27:19,222 --> 00:27:20,222 Speaker 2: only one who survived. 500 00:27:20,582 --> 00:27:21,382 Speaker 1: And she fought Bash. 501 00:27:21,462 --> 00:27:23,022 Speaker 2: She fought back cat and Or he had a one 502 00:27:23,022 --> 00:27:25,702 Speaker 2: handcuff on her and her father was a police officer, 503 00:27:25,742 --> 00:27:28,062 Speaker 2: and she started to sust that he wasn't a police 504 00:27:28,102 --> 00:27:30,582 Speaker 2: officer because he made himself out to be. You know, 505 00:27:31,182 --> 00:27:34,902 Speaker 2: Bundy's just another example, and I mean Bundy was a 506 00:27:34,902 --> 00:27:38,902 Speaker 2: serial killer, where most sex offenders don't get to that. 507 00:27:38,942 --> 00:27:41,382 Speaker 2: But that is a line of continuum that they will 508 00:27:41,422 --> 00:27:43,862 Speaker 2: go down eventually. We don't get as many now because 509 00:27:44,382 --> 00:27:46,822 Speaker 2: our investigative techniques are so much better, we can get 510 00:27:46,862 --> 00:27:48,222 Speaker 2: them before it gets to that point. 511 00:27:49,142 --> 00:27:51,862 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that you had a strategy for date rate. 512 00:27:52,622 --> 00:27:55,622 Speaker 2: Yeah, can you share it with us? I can. The 513 00:27:55,662 --> 00:27:58,382 Speaker 2: problem is the brevity of the time that we have 514 00:27:58,502 --> 00:28:00,462 Speaker 2: to share it, because it's going to come across as 515 00:28:00,462 --> 00:28:01,662 Speaker 2: been quite bisarre. Have you read it? 516 00:28:01,702 --> 00:28:02,142 Speaker 1: You read it? 517 00:28:02,222 --> 00:28:04,662 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's total reverse psychology. 518 00:28:04,822 --> 00:28:07,262 Speaker 1: It goes against everything you've described it does. 519 00:28:07,342 --> 00:28:08,702 Speaker 2: But what do you think when you read it? What 520 00:28:08,742 --> 00:28:10,022 Speaker 2: did you think it made sense? 521 00:28:10,102 --> 00:28:14,742 Speaker 1: Because in a date rape scenario, you likely know that 522 00:28:14,782 --> 00:28:16,462 Speaker 1: person on some kind of level. You've had a few 523 00:28:16,542 --> 00:28:18,822 Speaker 1: dates with them, they're an acquaintance. You've been put in 524 00:28:18,862 --> 00:28:21,542 Speaker 1: a scenario where it's escalating to a point you don't 525 00:28:21,542 --> 00:28:25,542 Speaker 1: want it to, and so to turn around and yell 526 00:28:25,582 --> 00:28:28,342 Speaker 1: and scream doesn't feel like the right thing to do 527 00:28:28,462 --> 00:28:29,142 Speaker 1: in that moment. 528 00:28:29,382 --> 00:28:32,142 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the strategy in the date rape is different, 529 00:28:32,222 --> 00:28:32,502 Speaker 2: isn't it. 530 00:28:32,622 --> 00:28:32,982 Speaker 1: Yeah. 531 00:28:33,022 --> 00:28:35,262 Speaker 2: In a date rape, the aggression is linked to the 532 00:28:35,262 --> 00:28:38,062 Speaker 2: word no. Now I'm not condaining, I'm not saying that's okay. 533 00:28:39,702 --> 00:28:42,782 Speaker 2: But young women who go through these type of sexual 534 00:28:42,822 --> 00:28:44,782 Speaker 2: crimes where they have a sexual offense commit against them 535 00:28:44,822 --> 00:28:46,222 Speaker 2: by someone you know, they've met at a party, or 536 00:28:46,222 --> 00:28:49,262 Speaker 2: they've knowne or what have you. Everything's going along swimmingly 537 00:28:49,382 --> 00:28:53,382 Speaker 2: until the women say no. And it's something about that 538 00:28:53,422 --> 00:28:56,702 Speaker 2: word no that makes the guy aggressive. And it's because 539 00:28:56,742 --> 00:28:59,382 Speaker 2: again time probably permits us from gameless too deeply. It's 540 00:28:59,422 --> 00:29:02,822 Speaker 2: because the word no challenges his belief that he was 541 00:29:02,862 --> 00:29:05,582 Speaker 2: going to get what he thinks he's entitled to get. Yeah, 542 00:29:05,742 --> 00:29:08,342 Speaker 2: And so if you keep saying no, it can increase 543 00:29:08,382 --> 00:29:11,702 Speaker 2: the aggression in that scenario. And I get that. The 544 00:29:11,742 --> 00:29:13,702 Speaker 2: thing in a date rape, though, and behind it is 545 00:29:14,022 --> 00:29:17,982 Speaker 2: a belief that he believes within himself that you'll probably 546 00:29:18,222 --> 00:29:21,022 Speaker 2: change your mind. See that is not a psychology present 547 00:29:21,022 --> 00:29:25,062 Speaker 2: with a serial sex offender. He doesn't care less for you. 548 00:29:25,542 --> 00:29:28,902 Speaker 2: That's not on his radar. The date rapist guy, he's 549 00:29:28,902 --> 00:29:32,022 Speaker 2: the word no. It's not ful no. And when that 550 00:29:32,142 --> 00:29:34,942 Speaker 2: leads to aggression. It's because he thinks he's entitled to 551 00:29:34,942 --> 00:29:37,942 Speaker 2: put pressure on you to get you to stop saying 552 00:29:37,942 --> 00:29:40,902 Speaker 2: no and to say what yes. So when he hears yes, 553 00:29:40,942 --> 00:29:44,662 Speaker 2: what happens to aggression? Will it increase or decrease? It'll 554 00:29:44,702 --> 00:29:48,862 Speaker 2: decrease because he's one, right, So it's that psychology playing 555 00:29:48,902 --> 00:29:51,062 Speaker 2: a part again there. So now he thinks he's one. 556 00:29:51,622 --> 00:29:54,582 Speaker 2: Now he's calmed down. You're in a much better situation 557 00:29:55,382 --> 00:29:58,382 Speaker 2: to get from where you are to somewhere safer now 558 00:29:58,422 --> 00:30:02,342 Speaker 2: that his defenses have been lowered. And so the component 559 00:30:02,422 --> 00:30:06,142 Speaker 2: there is I don't say you don't say no. You 560 00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:09,182 Speaker 2: say no, and you keep saying no until such time 561 00:30:09,222 --> 00:30:13,502 Speaker 2: as you're like full, this is actually getting worse and 562 00:30:13,542 --> 00:30:17,462 Speaker 2: I'm not going to get out of this saying no. Well, 563 00:30:18,182 --> 00:30:20,782 Speaker 2: if saying no's making them angry, saying yes is the 564 00:30:20,822 --> 00:30:23,502 Speaker 2: opposite to no. Saying yes can often make the angry 565 00:30:23,502 --> 00:30:25,622 Speaker 2: guy here. Oh hang on, listen, listen, listen. She's keen. 566 00:30:25,662 --> 00:30:29,622 Speaker 2: She's keen. Pull back, pull back what you've won. So 567 00:30:29,742 --> 00:30:33,542 Speaker 2: then often comes a oh sorry, sorry, sorry, yeah I 568 00:30:33,622 --> 00:30:38,142 Speaker 2: got a bit aggressive there. Yeah. Yeah, Now you're in 569 00:30:38,182 --> 00:30:40,982 Speaker 2: a position where you've built yourself a good platform to 570 00:30:41,022 --> 00:30:42,662 Speaker 2: get from where you are to somewhere safe. 571 00:30:43,902 --> 00:30:46,462 Speaker 1: I can imagine that some girls and women would say, 572 00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:48,302 Speaker 1: but if I say yes and I want to take 573 00:30:48,302 --> 00:30:49,862 Speaker 1: this to court, he'll use that against me. 574 00:30:50,022 --> 00:30:52,182 Speaker 2: Yeah, they do, which is great. I want them to 575 00:30:52,182 --> 00:30:54,902 Speaker 2: say that, because that's based on the assumption that when 576 00:30:54,982 --> 00:30:58,782 Speaker 2: you say yes, you've consented. My response to that is 577 00:30:58,822 --> 00:31:01,902 Speaker 2: the word yes doesn't appear in any legal definition of consent. 578 00:31:02,662 --> 00:31:05,382 Speaker 2: But it's a misheld belief that if you utter the 579 00:31:05,422 --> 00:31:08,382 Speaker 2: word yes, you've consented. We'll go to the law and 580 00:31:08,422 --> 00:31:11,102 Speaker 2: show me where that's in consent. He just doesn't even 581 00:31:11,102 --> 00:31:14,502 Speaker 2: get a mention unconsent. Law consent says for you to consent, 582 00:31:14,542 --> 00:31:17,142 Speaker 2: you must give your permission or change your mind freely 583 00:31:17,822 --> 00:31:21,302 Speaker 2: without being subjected to any form of threats, force, violence, 584 00:31:21,342 --> 00:31:26,142 Speaker 2: coercional manipulation. So that strategy is employed as a result 585 00:31:26,222 --> 00:31:30,542 Speaker 2: of saying no and being subjected to what threats? Of course? 586 00:31:30,742 --> 00:31:34,742 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so many girls wouldn't for that reason. 587 00:31:34,942 --> 00:31:36,982 Speaker 2: Well that's it. But then when they know that, it's like, ah, 588 00:31:37,062 --> 00:31:40,142 Speaker 2: you've removed another one of those barriers. I spoke to 589 00:31:40,342 --> 00:31:43,222 Speaker 2: just under two hundred boys this morning. Yeah, twelve boys 590 00:31:43,502 --> 00:31:45,702 Speaker 2: school I've been going into for many, many years, and 591 00:31:45,742 --> 00:31:48,022 Speaker 2: these are knock around blokes, you know, big football school, 592 00:31:48,022 --> 00:31:50,062 Speaker 2: the whole one yards. You can't go in there with 593 00:31:50,102 --> 00:31:51,902 Speaker 2: a big stick and crack them over the head and 594 00:31:51,942 --> 00:31:54,542 Speaker 2: say sit down, shut up, because you're all males, you're 595 00:31:54,582 --> 00:31:57,742 Speaker 2: all misogynists, you're all suffering from tosk at masculine. So 596 00:31:57,782 --> 00:32:00,142 Speaker 2: listen to me, because I'll get up on the walkout. 597 00:32:00,862 --> 00:32:02,542 Speaker 2: Because most young men I've met in my life a 598 00:32:02,622 --> 00:32:06,742 Speaker 2: decent human beings, most of them, but some of them aren't. 599 00:32:07,102 --> 00:32:09,022 Speaker 2: But you can't treat all of them like they're bad. 600 00:32:09,462 --> 00:32:11,382 Speaker 2: So you've got to have respet back for the audience 601 00:32:11,422 --> 00:32:13,142 Speaker 2: when you're talking to them. And if you do that, 602 00:32:14,142 --> 00:32:17,142 Speaker 2: then they come forward and they going, oh, this is good. 603 00:32:17,222 --> 00:32:20,262 Speaker 2: No one's ever told us this, no one's ever approached 604 00:32:20,262 --> 00:32:23,302 Speaker 2: it from this perspective. And one of the things I 605 00:32:23,342 --> 00:32:25,422 Speaker 2: said today, I said, now, boys, let's say you were 606 00:32:25,422 --> 00:32:28,462 Speaker 2: to be with somebody having an intimate exchange at the weekend, 607 00:32:28,462 --> 00:32:30,862 Speaker 2: whether that's male to male, male to female, if you're 608 00:32:30,862 --> 00:32:35,222 Speaker 2: initiating some intimacy with that person, you know that they 609 00:32:35,262 --> 00:32:37,182 Speaker 2: have to consent, right, And they go, yeah, of course, 610 00:32:37,302 --> 00:32:39,742 Speaker 2: everyone knows that I said, okay, tell me what do 611 00:32:39,782 --> 00:32:44,302 Speaker 2: they need to say or do to be consenting? And 612 00:32:44,342 --> 00:32:46,422 Speaker 2: the word you get ninety nine percent of the time 613 00:32:46,502 --> 00:32:49,502 Speaker 2: is the word yes. They'll say yes. Sorry when someone 614 00:32:49,502 --> 00:32:54,102 Speaker 2: says yes, that's consent, yep. I said, right, well, boys, 615 00:32:54,462 --> 00:32:58,342 Speaker 2: it's eleven minutes past ten on whatever today's dat is. 616 00:32:58,382 --> 00:33:01,342 Speaker 2: That will be the last time you ever connect the 617 00:33:01,342 --> 00:33:05,462 Speaker 2: word yes to consent, because whoever told you that has 618 00:33:05,502 --> 00:33:07,302 Speaker 2: told you that is not someone you should be taking. 619 00:33:07,302 --> 00:33:10,302 Speaker 2: An I legal advice from the word yes can mean, 620 00:33:10,342 --> 00:33:14,942 Speaker 2: it often does, but this blanket idea that the utterance 621 00:33:15,222 --> 00:33:18,542 Speaker 2: of that word equals consent is an absolute myth. I 622 00:33:18,622 --> 00:33:20,782 Speaker 2: speak to young women every week I've said yes who 623 00:33:20,782 --> 00:33:23,622 Speaker 2: haven't consented. They've said yes because they're frightened. How do 624 00:33:23,662 --> 00:33:27,022 Speaker 2: they get frightened because the other person used pressure against 625 00:33:27,182 --> 00:33:30,582 Speaker 2: verbally physically. So I go back to the boys and 626 00:33:30,582 --> 00:33:33,662 Speaker 2: I say, boys, I have two issues with you, as 627 00:33:33,702 --> 00:33:37,022 Speaker 2: young men believing that the word yes equals consent. The 628 00:33:37,062 --> 00:33:39,422 Speaker 2: first one is you've chosen a word that doesn't exist 629 00:33:39,422 --> 00:33:42,382 Speaker 2: in the legal definition, so you've hung your hat on 630 00:33:42,422 --> 00:33:47,662 Speaker 2: a word that doesn't even exist legally. Secondly, I think 631 00:33:47,662 --> 00:33:50,102 Speaker 2: for some young men, if we mistakenly tell them that 632 00:33:50,182 --> 00:33:53,422 Speaker 2: the word yes, as if by magic, means that whatever's 633 00:33:53,422 --> 00:33:56,102 Speaker 2: happened up to that point is now consent. We're saying 634 00:33:56,102 --> 00:33:58,862 Speaker 2: to those young men, if you're initiating intimacy and you 635 00:33:58,902 --> 00:34:01,662 Speaker 2: hear the word no, let's put a bit of pressure on, 636 00:34:02,582 --> 00:34:05,462 Speaker 2: because you'll make them say yes. But the law says, 637 00:34:05,582 --> 00:34:07,462 Speaker 2: hang on, how'd you get them to say yes? I 638 00:34:07,542 --> 00:34:09,342 Speaker 2: just put a bit of pressure on. How do you 639 00:34:09,382 --> 00:34:14,382 Speaker 2: do that? Threats force, violence, coercion, manipulation. So once the 640 00:34:14,422 --> 00:34:17,382 Speaker 2: boys get that, I say that the most important that 641 00:34:17,502 --> 00:34:21,182 Speaker 2: aspect of consent law is the word freely. So when 642 00:34:21,182 --> 00:34:24,342 Speaker 2: you ask people what consent means. For example, if you 643 00:34:24,382 --> 00:34:26,222 Speaker 2: were to ask, say to young women, tell me what 644 00:34:26,382 --> 00:34:28,662 Speaker 2: consent me So, it's when I do this, it's when 645 00:34:28,702 --> 00:34:31,902 Speaker 2: I do that. Interestingly, that aspect of consent law is 646 00:34:31,942 --> 00:34:36,062 Speaker 2: defined by the other person, because if you or I 647 00:34:36,102 --> 00:34:39,662 Speaker 2: are investigating from a sex crime perspective, whether this young 648 00:34:39,702 --> 00:34:42,902 Speaker 2: woman consented or not, we don't define her consent by 649 00:34:42,902 --> 00:34:44,062 Speaker 2: the fact that she said yes. 650 00:34:45,222 --> 00:34:47,102 Speaker 1: It's her actions, it's her behavior. 651 00:34:47,262 --> 00:34:49,822 Speaker 2: Well, it's more than that, it's whether she was allowed 652 00:34:49,862 --> 00:34:53,222 Speaker 2: to take those actions freely. Yeah, because she could say oh, 653 00:34:53,262 --> 00:34:56,022 Speaker 2: I said yes, and then she goes, I did that 654 00:34:56,022 --> 00:34:58,142 Speaker 2: because he had a knife to my throat. Oh that's 655 00:34:58,182 --> 00:35:01,062 Speaker 2: not consent. Well, see, we haven't asked enough questions, have 656 00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:04,502 Speaker 2: we We don't define whether this young person is consented 657 00:35:04,542 --> 00:35:06,342 Speaker 2: because of what they say, because of what they did, 658 00:35:06,382 --> 00:35:09,102 Speaker 2: or whether they change their mind. We must ask one 659 00:35:09,102 --> 00:35:11,262 Speaker 2: more question. Did they say it, do it? Or change 660 00:35:11,302 --> 00:35:14,062 Speaker 2: their mind freely? Now what does that mean? Well, that 661 00:35:14,222 --> 00:35:17,222 Speaker 2: means that we're now looking at this person. Did they 662 00:35:17,302 --> 00:35:20,862 Speaker 2: allow them to do that freely? What does that mean? Legally? 663 00:35:20,982 --> 00:35:26,022 Speaker 2: Without using threats force, violence, coercional manipulation, the Ted Bundy's, 664 00:35:26,062 --> 00:35:30,902 Speaker 2: the Joseph Thompson's, they use physical violence, but date rape 665 00:35:30,942 --> 00:35:35,422 Speaker 2: is far more likely to be coercive, verbal, psychological, And 666 00:35:35,462 --> 00:35:37,942 Speaker 2: even that too many people comes as a bit of 667 00:35:37,942 --> 00:35:42,582 Speaker 2: a surprise because we think the only thing that negates 668 00:35:42,742 --> 00:35:47,662 Speaker 2: consent is physical threats of force. No coercion manipulation sits 669 00:35:47,662 --> 00:35:48,862 Speaker 2: on the same plane. Legally. 670 00:35:54,542 --> 00:35:58,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath, 671 00:35:58,982 --> 00:36:08,142 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Brent Sanders. You said you've had women 672 00:36:08,142 --> 00:36:12,342 Speaker 1: come forward after your seminars and tell you about their experiences. 673 00:36:12,382 --> 00:36:14,942 Speaker 1: What about men and boys. Have they come forward and 674 00:36:14,942 --> 00:36:18,222 Speaker 1: told you the opposite, not that they've been assaulted, that 675 00:36:18,262 --> 00:36:19,302 Speaker 1: they have assaulted. 676 00:36:20,102 --> 00:36:22,862 Speaker 2: I've had men come forward who've been sexually assaulted, just 677 00:36:22,902 --> 00:36:25,342 Speaker 2: to clarify that, yes, it doesn't happen nearly as much 678 00:36:25,342 --> 00:36:27,142 Speaker 2: because the age group that I talk to the high 679 00:36:27,222 --> 00:36:30,142 Speaker 2: risk gauge for males for sexual crime as primary school, 680 00:36:30,222 --> 00:36:32,342 Speaker 2: and I don't do any talks in primary school. The 681 00:36:32,422 --> 00:36:35,142 Speaker 2: highest risk gauge group for girls and women is fifteen 682 00:36:35,182 --> 00:36:37,902 Speaker 2: to twenty one, which is ninety nine percent of my attendees. 683 00:36:38,262 --> 00:36:40,622 Speaker 2: And the people committing those offenses are young men of 684 00:36:40,662 --> 00:36:43,142 Speaker 2: similar age who they know socially. So your questions are a 685 00:36:43,142 --> 00:36:47,062 Speaker 2: really good one. Look, respectfully, it's quite rare for guys 686 00:36:47,102 --> 00:36:48,622 Speaker 2: to come forward and admit to me as an ex 687 00:36:48,702 --> 00:36:51,302 Speaker 2: copper that they've committed a sex offense. Yeah, it's very 688 00:36:51,302 --> 00:36:53,782 Speaker 2: common for guys to come forward. A bit sheepishly saying 689 00:36:53,822 --> 00:36:58,422 Speaker 2: I had absolutely no idea of the legal test for 690 00:36:58,502 --> 00:37:01,822 Speaker 2: drunkenness of when if someone says yes, that's not always 691 00:37:02,382 --> 00:37:05,342 Speaker 2: so they're not taking that next step so much. 692 00:37:06,022 --> 00:37:07,542 Speaker 1: The fact they've even come up to you and said 693 00:37:07,582 --> 00:37:09,222 Speaker 1: that they didn't know is a big step. 694 00:37:09,662 --> 00:37:12,102 Speaker 2: I can't remember the last time I did a seminar 695 00:37:12,142 --> 00:37:15,982 Speaker 2: without students coming forward. But depending on the gender and 696 00:37:16,022 --> 00:37:19,022 Speaker 2: the seminar depends on the reason they come forward. So 697 00:37:19,382 --> 00:37:23,222 Speaker 2: twenty nine years, I'd be hard pressed remembering a seminar 698 00:37:23,262 --> 00:37:25,342 Speaker 2: are presented to young women in year ten, eleven or 699 00:37:25,342 --> 00:37:28,582 Speaker 2: twelve without young women coming forward who've been subjected to 700 00:37:28,622 --> 00:37:31,942 Speaker 2: sexual crime. When I speak to young men, they come forward, 701 00:37:32,382 --> 00:37:35,102 Speaker 2: and they often come forward very genuinely. I don't want 702 00:37:35,142 --> 00:37:38,142 Speaker 2: to sound like a TOSSI, but they come forward just 703 00:37:38,142 --> 00:37:40,342 Speaker 2: to shake your hand and say, I've never had a 704 00:37:40,422 --> 00:37:43,182 Speaker 2: talk like this. No one's told me this stuff before. 705 00:37:43,742 --> 00:37:46,782 Speaker 2: There's sometimes a bit of an assumption that when young 706 00:37:46,822 --> 00:37:48,822 Speaker 2: people get to a certain age, as if by magic, 707 00:37:48,862 --> 00:37:51,982 Speaker 2: they'll just know this. Like, you get to year twelve, 708 00:37:52,022 --> 00:37:55,262 Speaker 2: you'll know how to wire up a house electrically. No 709 00:37:55,422 --> 00:37:57,502 Speaker 2: you won't. You get to year twelve, you'll know the 710 00:37:57,582 --> 00:37:59,902 Speaker 2: definition of consent? Really, who's told. 711 00:37:59,622 --> 00:38:04,622 Speaker 1: You apart from some biology class like you mentioned before, 712 00:38:04,662 --> 00:38:05,622 Speaker 1: a bit of sex ads. 713 00:38:05,742 --> 00:38:07,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, but the problem of the biology class is all 714 00:38:07,542 --> 00:38:10,382 Speaker 2: the terms are using it from a biological textbook. So's 715 00:38:10,422 --> 00:38:12,142 Speaker 2: it's the thing, you know, all these kids know the 716 00:38:12,182 --> 00:38:14,742 Speaker 2: definition of sexual intercourse, but the definition they know is 717 00:38:14,782 --> 00:38:17,142 Speaker 2: from a biology textbook and that bears no resemblance to 718 00:38:17,182 --> 00:38:20,982 Speaker 2: the legal definition. That's one of the major contributing factors 719 00:38:21,622 --> 00:38:24,222 Speaker 2: to young women I speak to who have been subjected 720 00:38:24,262 --> 00:38:27,862 Speaker 2: to sexual intercourse without consent, and they didn't know until 721 00:38:27,862 --> 00:38:30,262 Speaker 2: they sat in the talk, And the moment in the 722 00:38:30,302 --> 00:38:32,382 Speaker 2: talk that most of them realize is when I share 723 00:38:32,382 --> 00:38:35,742 Speaker 2: with them the legal definition, and it's so different to 724 00:38:35,782 --> 00:38:36,382 Speaker 2: what they thought. 725 00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:38,622 Speaker 1: I'm sure we have listeners that don't know. Can you 726 00:38:38,702 --> 00:38:39,182 Speaker 1: tell them? 727 00:38:39,342 --> 00:38:41,742 Speaker 2: I'm going to paraphrase a little because I deliver talks 728 00:38:41,742 --> 00:38:43,782 Speaker 2: in every state and territory. So last week I delivered 729 00:38:43,782 --> 00:38:47,422 Speaker 2: talks in Canberra, Brisbane and Sydney. Right, they all have 730 00:38:47,542 --> 00:38:50,582 Speaker 2: different crimes acts, all different pieces of legislation, but they're 731 00:38:50,622 --> 00:38:53,702 Speaker 2: all pretty much the same. We get some different terminology, 732 00:38:53,782 --> 00:38:57,262 Speaker 2: we have some slightly different maximum sentences and stuff around that, 733 00:38:57,302 --> 00:38:59,982 Speaker 2: but when you actually look at definition, it's pretty uniform. 734 00:39:00,142 --> 00:39:02,942 Speaker 2: So if you look at the definition of sexual intercourse, 735 00:39:03,102 --> 00:39:06,502 Speaker 2: so we apply that to sexual intercourse without consent, right, 736 00:39:07,422 --> 00:39:10,102 Speaker 2: most people think are sexual intercourse. I know what that is. 737 00:39:10,542 --> 00:39:15,022 Speaker 2: That's penole penetration for pro creation. That's the biological definition, 738 00:39:15,142 --> 00:39:18,662 Speaker 2: or if you go to a religious school, it's a 739 00:39:18,702 --> 00:39:21,382 Speaker 2: theological definition, and that's cool. I got no problem with that. 740 00:39:21,662 --> 00:39:24,302 Speaker 2: But they're often really surprised to hear the legal definition. 741 00:39:24,822 --> 00:39:27,062 Speaker 2: And in every state and territory in Australia, the legal 742 00:39:27,102 --> 00:39:30,142 Speaker 2: definition of sexual intercourse and I'm going to paraphrase it little, 743 00:39:30,582 --> 00:39:34,062 Speaker 2: it's penetration to a sexual area with anything at all. 744 00:39:34,502 --> 00:39:36,822 Speaker 2: So straight away, and we're only a fraction of the 745 00:39:36,822 --> 00:39:40,022 Speaker 2: way through the definition. Straight away there people hear that going, oh, 746 00:39:40,102 --> 00:39:43,582 Speaker 2: hang on, what no, no, no, no, intercourse can only 747 00:39:43,622 --> 00:39:48,222 Speaker 2: be penole penetration or that's your biology class. Ye, wrong book, 748 00:39:48,462 --> 00:39:51,622 Speaker 2: wrong definition. So the law says a person has had 749 00:39:51,782 --> 00:39:54,582 Speaker 2: sexual intercourse with another person the moment they penetrate that 750 00:39:54,662 --> 00:39:58,982 Speaker 2: person to a sexual area with anything at all, any 751 00:39:59,062 --> 00:40:02,382 Speaker 2: part of an offender's body, anything held or manipulated by 752 00:40:02,382 --> 00:40:06,382 Speaker 2: the offender, and it keeps going. Every state and territory 753 00:40:06,382 --> 00:40:09,622 Speaker 2: in Australia also goes on to say sexual intercourse also 754 00:40:09,702 --> 00:40:13,222 Speaker 2: includes the act performing oral sex. Now New South Wales, 755 00:40:13,342 --> 00:40:16,782 Speaker 2: forced oral sex is legally defined or articulated in a 756 00:40:16,822 --> 00:40:19,422 Speaker 2: courtroom as being the introduction of the penis to the 757 00:40:19,502 --> 00:40:23,182 Speaker 2: mouth without full consent. So when you put that out 758 00:40:23,182 --> 00:40:25,862 Speaker 2: in front of a couple of hundred young men, you 759 00:40:25,902 --> 00:40:29,062 Speaker 2: can hear a pin drop because they're going, wow, I 760 00:40:29,062 --> 00:40:32,782 Speaker 2: didn't know that. Two most common forms of intercourse without 761 00:40:32,822 --> 00:40:36,062 Speaker 2: consent committed against young women in that high riskauge group 762 00:40:36,102 --> 00:40:41,022 Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty one. Number one is penetration sexually by 763 00:40:41,022 --> 00:40:44,062 Speaker 2: guy using his fingers without consent. Most young women who 764 00:40:44,102 --> 00:40:46,342 Speaker 2: are subjected to that are told by well meaning friends, 765 00:40:46,382 --> 00:40:49,582 Speaker 2: oh my god, that's awful. That's terrible. What an asshole. 766 00:40:49,622 --> 00:40:52,022 Speaker 2: Thank god he didn't rape you. That's one good thing. 767 00:40:52,862 --> 00:40:55,662 Speaker 2: And that advice is given with really good intent because 768 00:40:55,702 --> 00:40:59,222 Speaker 2: they're listening to their friend's story and they're running it 769 00:40:59,302 --> 00:41:02,782 Speaker 2: through their definition of sexual intercourse, which comes from page 770 00:41:02,862 --> 00:41:08,182 Speaker 2: seventy six of the year twelve biology textbook. So because 771 00:41:08,222 --> 00:41:11,022 Speaker 2: what happened to their friend doesn't fit into that exceedingly 772 00:41:11,142 --> 00:41:14,262 Speaker 2: narrow definition, that means it's not intercourse, So it can't 773 00:41:14,262 --> 00:41:16,542 Speaker 2: be intercourse without consent, so it's not rape. 774 00:41:17,102 --> 00:41:19,422 Speaker 1: But to be clear, what you're saying is it is rape. 775 00:41:19,542 --> 00:41:23,782 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the number one most common form because if 776 00:41:23,822 --> 00:41:27,022 Speaker 2: a person penetrates another person's sexu with their fingers without 777 00:41:27,102 --> 00:41:30,982 Speaker 2: their consent. That's sexual intercourse without consent, second most common 778 00:41:31,022 --> 00:41:34,462 Speaker 2: form of intercourse without consent that young women are subjected 779 00:41:34,502 --> 00:41:37,182 Speaker 2: to it. It's been forced into performing oral sex. Oral 780 00:41:37,222 --> 00:41:41,862 Speaker 2: sex is so far beyond most people's inclusion in that 781 00:41:42,382 --> 00:41:45,062 Speaker 2: term sexual intercourse, it's not even on the radar. It's 782 00:41:45,102 --> 00:41:48,062 Speaker 2: the second most common form of intercourse without consent. So 783 00:41:49,342 --> 00:41:51,782 Speaker 2: it's important for young men to hear this. Yeah, it's 784 00:41:51,782 --> 00:41:54,582 Speaker 2: important for young women to hear this because the language 785 00:41:54,582 --> 00:41:58,142 Speaker 2: around this dumbs it down. So I know, I didn't 786 00:41:58,142 --> 00:42:00,302 Speaker 2: have sex with her. I just sort of touched her 787 00:42:00,382 --> 00:42:03,102 Speaker 2: up a bit. Classic term from someone on the other 788 00:42:03,142 --> 00:42:05,782 Speaker 2: side of an interview desk who's touching her up a 789 00:42:05,782 --> 00:42:07,302 Speaker 2: bit means oh, yeah, she was saying no, she was 790 00:42:07,342 --> 00:42:10,022 Speaker 2: pushing my hand away, but I sort of penetrated her 791 00:42:10,022 --> 00:42:11,822 Speaker 2: with my finger is a bit, because yeah, she was 792 00:42:11,862 --> 00:42:14,502 Speaker 2: saying no. She wasn't that keen, but I figured maybe 793 00:42:14,542 --> 00:42:16,862 Speaker 2: if she might change her mind. Now you run that 794 00:42:16,902 --> 00:42:21,142 Speaker 2: through legal definition, sexual intercourse without consent. I mean, even 795 00:42:21,182 --> 00:42:22,702 Speaker 2: that term rape, it's an awful term. 796 00:42:22,782 --> 00:42:23,102 Speaker 1: It is. 797 00:42:23,182 --> 00:42:26,822 Speaker 2: It's an awful term. People associate that with intercourse without consent. 798 00:42:26,862 --> 00:42:28,782 Speaker 2: Of course they do. You can't even be charged with 799 00:42:28,902 --> 00:42:30,622 Speaker 2: rape in New South Wales. There's no such a fense 800 00:42:30,662 --> 00:42:34,062 Speaker 2: that crime doesn't even exist. That word has not existed 801 00:42:34,142 --> 00:42:38,342 Speaker 2: legally in New South Wales since September nineteen eighty one, 802 00:42:39,902 --> 00:42:42,622 Speaker 2: So it makes people think, bloody hell, what else don't 803 00:42:42,662 --> 00:42:44,742 Speaker 2: I know? Now? You can be charged with rape in 804 00:42:44,782 --> 00:42:47,862 Speaker 2: two states in Australia, Victorian and Queensland, but no other 805 00:42:47,902 --> 00:42:50,342 Speaker 2: state or territory New South Wales. The term rape was 806 00:42:50,382 --> 00:42:53,062 Speaker 2: replaced by the term sexual assault forty three years ago. 807 00:42:53,582 --> 00:42:56,142 Speaker 2: So it gets sort of interesting when you get into 808 00:42:56,142 --> 00:42:58,382 Speaker 2: that discussion with people all these terms that they're so 809 00:42:58,502 --> 00:43:01,422 Speaker 2: familiar with, but they don't actually know what they mean. 810 00:43:01,902 --> 00:43:04,302 Speaker 2: You know, like drunk person can't cossent, brilliant, what does 811 00:43:04,342 --> 00:43:08,542 Speaker 2: that mean? Ask year twelve students today, you're at a party. 812 00:43:09,062 --> 00:43:10,822 Speaker 2: You know that there's a drunk person part of they 813 00:43:10,862 --> 00:43:13,942 Speaker 2: can't consent. What's the test to determine how drunk they are? Oh, 814 00:43:13,982 --> 00:43:19,862 Speaker 2: it's a breathalyzer. What's not we do get a freaking 815 00:43:19,902 --> 00:43:23,822 Speaker 2: breathalyzer from And what's the breathalyzer level that someone has 816 00:43:23,902 --> 00:43:26,262 Speaker 2: to fail to not be able to consent? See, that's 817 00:43:26,302 --> 00:43:28,822 Speaker 2: just a myth. So what our brain does it says, oh, 818 00:43:29,022 --> 00:43:31,262 Speaker 2: I know the test for drunkenness. It's a breathalyzer. Well, 819 00:43:31,262 --> 00:43:34,422 Speaker 2: it's a driving test. There's a specific test for consent. 820 00:43:35,262 --> 00:43:38,382 Speaker 2: But all the young people I speak to pretty much 821 00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:41,182 Speaker 2: know a drunk person can't consent. Most of them don't 822 00:43:41,222 --> 00:43:43,822 Speaker 2: know what that means. Biggest study to come out of 823 00:43:44,022 --> 00:43:46,222 Speaker 2: a strong universities more recently is telling us up to 824 00:43:46,342 --> 00:43:49,782 Speaker 2: ninety percent of young women in high risk gauge they 825 00:43:49,782 --> 00:43:52,662 Speaker 2: senior high school that have a sexual offense committed against 826 00:43:52,662 --> 00:43:55,702 Speaker 2: them last weekend, they will be too affected by alcohol 827 00:43:55,782 --> 00:43:58,102 Speaker 2: or drugs to be able to legally provide consent nine 828 00:43:58,142 --> 00:44:03,502 Speaker 2: times out of ten. But ninety nine percent of students 829 00:44:03,502 --> 00:44:07,302 Speaker 2: in those environments don't know what the actual legal test is. 830 00:44:07,502 --> 00:44:08,542 Speaker 1: So what's the legal test. 831 00:44:08,582 --> 00:44:11,902 Speaker 2: It's an observational test. That's how it's presented in the law. 832 00:44:12,262 --> 00:44:14,582 Speaker 2: The law says to consent, a person must be sober, 833 00:44:15,342 --> 00:44:17,462 Speaker 2: you know, there must be in a sober state of mind. 834 00:44:17,702 --> 00:44:19,182 Speaker 2: And then it goes on to say a person is 835 00:44:19,222 --> 00:44:23,222 Speaker 2: no longer sober enough to consent once they've consumed enough 836 00:44:23,222 --> 00:44:25,822 Speaker 2: alcohol or drugs, that they are clearly showing the effects 837 00:44:25,862 --> 00:44:28,142 Speaker 2: of drugs or alcohol, and they could be observed by 838 00:44:28,182 --> 00:44:32,302 Speaker 2: any reasonable person. So that's the law. It's the same 839 00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:36,142 Speaker 2: as the RSA test, the responsible service of alcohol test, 840 00:44:36,222 --> 00:44:38,862 Speaker 2: that is identical to the test to consent. You fail 841 00:44:38,902 --> 00:44:41,742 Speaker 2: them the same way. So we all know that if 842 00:44:41,782 --> 00:44:43,662 Speaker 2: you've had a few too many drinks and you try 843 00:44:43,702 --> 00:44:45,982 Speaker 2: to get into a pub, generally the person on their 844 00:44:45,982 --> 00:44:48,022 Speaker 2: will say no, I'm sorry. It's not like you've done 845 00:44:48,022 --> 00:44:50,622 Speaker 2: anything wrong. It's just they'll lose their job if they 846 00:44:50,662 --> 00:44:53,102 Speaker 2: let you in because you fail the RSA. How do 847 00:44:53,142 --> 00:44:55,782 Speaker 2: you fail the RSA when you're clearly showing the effects 848 00:44:55,822 --> 00:44:58,742 Speaker 2: of alcoholic drugs that can be observed by any reasonable person. Now, 849 00:44:58,742 --> 00:45:03,022 Speaker 2: in that case, the reasonable person's the dormant. When detectives 850 00:45:03,182 --> 00:45:07,262 Speaker 2: from sex crimes investigate, say, allegations of a sexual offense 851 00:45:07,262 --> 00:45:09,502 Speaker 2: they committed at a party or something such as that 852 00:45:09,902 --> 00:45:13,182 Speaker 2: the off and looking at circumstances where somebody is too 853 00:45:13,342 --> 00:45:16,982 Speaker 2: drunk or drug effected to give consent, you can apply 854 00:45:17,022 --> 00:45:19,222 Speaker 2: the test anyone in that room that you can clearly 855 00:45:19,262 --> 00:45:21,582 Speaker 2: see is affected by a color of drugs, And the 856 00:45:21,662 --> 00:45:25,422 Speaker 2: legal test is the physical effects, verbal or cognitive or combination. 857 00:45:25,622 --> 00:45:28,062 Speaker 2: This is what a judge tells a jury in a courtroom. 858 00:45:28,382 --> 00:45:30,542 Speaker 2: But we've got to give this information to the kids 859 00:45:30,582 --> 00:45:31,982 Speaker 2: going out to parties this weekend. 860 00:45:33,142 --> 00:45:34,902 Speaker 1: Do you think that by giving them all of these 861 00:45:34,942 --> 00:45:38,142 Speaker 1: legal definitions, what's it going to do? Is it scaring them? 862 00:45:38,302 --> 00:45:41,382 Speaker 2: No, it's not scaring them. It's giving them the information 863 00:45:41,422 --> 00:45:44,342 Speaker 2: they're entitled to. So my job is to go in 864 00:45:44,382 --> 00:45:46,062 Speaker 2: and say, if you choose to have a few drinks 865 00:45:46,102 --> 00:45:49,582 Speaker 2: at part is, if you choose to initiate an intimate exchange, 866 00:45:49,702 --> 00:45:53,222 Speaker 2: or you are comfortable having somebody initiated an intimate exchange 867 00:45:53,222 --> 00:45:56,822 Speaker 2: with you, that's fine. But if you're in that environment, 868 00:45:56,822 --> 00:45:59,382 Speaker 2: you're entitled to know this stuff. Because if you don't 869 00:45:59,422 --> 00:46:01,662 Speaker 2: know this stuff, how do you know whether you've given consent? 870 00:46:02,022 --> 00:46:04,142 Speaker 2: How do you know whether you have consent? How do 871 00:46:04,182 --> 00:46:06,942 Speaker 2: you know if that person's had too many drinks to 872 00:46:07,062 --> 00:46:08,862 Speaker 2: fail the test? If you don't know what the test is, 873 00:46:09,342 --> 00:46:11,702 Speaker 2: how do you know if you've had sex intercourse with somebody? 874 00:46:11,742 --> 00:46:15,382 Speaker 2: If your definition comes from a biology textbook, See so it's. 875 00:46:15,222 --> 00:46:17,342 Speaker 1: Knowledge and say knowledge is power. 876 00:46:17,462 --> 00:46:18,982 Speaker 2: Well it is, and if you do it in the 877 00:46:19,062 --> 00:46:22,662 Speaker 2: right way, I think I hope people can walk out 878 00:46:22,702 --> 00:46:25,342 Speaker 2: going oh okay, I knew some of that stuff, but 879 00:46:25,382 --> 00:46:27,342 Speaker 2: the stuff I didn't know makes a big difference to 880 00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:29,502 Speaker 2: how I look at it. And you know, none of 881 00:46:29,542 --> 00:46:32,502 Speaker 2: this stuff is rocket science. When you know this stuff, 882 00:46:32,542 --> 00:46:34,862 Speaker 2: it makes so much sense. Like when you know that 883 00:46:34,942 --> 00:46:38,302 Speaker 2: the utterance of the word yes doesn't equal consent, it's like, well, 884 00:46:38,302 --> 00:46:41,502 Speaker 2: of course it doesn't. I have helping young guys. Stay 885 00:46:41,502 --> 00:46:43,902 Speaker 2: to me. You be hand one. So are you saying, 886 00:46:43,942 --> 00:46:48,822 Speaker 2: then when someone changes their mind from no to yes 887 00:46:48,902 --> 00:46:53,262 Speaker 2: or no to whatever, that's consent. Yeah, So okay, Well 888 00:46:53,342 --> 00:46:55,942 Speaker 2: let's put that into practice. So I'll say, okay, let's 889 00:46:55,942 --> 00:47:00,222 Speaker 2: appride that principle. Give me ten dollars, to which they'll 890 00:47:00,262 --> 00:47:02,942 Speaker 2: say no. I'll say, well, hang on, do you have 891 00:47:03,022 --> 00:47:07,542 Speaker 2: ten dollars? Yeah, well give it to me. No, And 892 00:47:07,582 --> 00:47:09,702 Speaker 2: then I might get a bit theatrical and go, well, 893 00:47:09,902 --> 00:47:12,382 Speaker 2: I'm going to out to three and if that ten 894 00:47:12,462 --> 00:47:14,702 Speaker 2: dollars is not in my pocket, what if I start 895 00:47:14,902 --> 00:47:17,302 Speaker 2: hitting you something? And I said, I reckon, Tom, I'll 896 00:47:17,302 --> 00:47:18,822 Speaker 2: get to about two, the wall beout, and you'll give 897 00:47:18,822 --> 00:47:22,502 Speaker 2: me the money. Don't let anyone tell you consented. That's 898 00:47:22,542 --> 00:47:26,022 Speaker 2: a robbery. You changed your mind, but you didn't change 899 00:47:26,062 --> 00:47:28,742 Speaker 2: it freely. You changed it because of the pressure. I applied. 900 00:47:29,182 --> 00:47:32,382 Speaker 2: Exact same principle applies to your actions towards someone an 901 00:47:32,422 --> 00:47:35,102 Speaker 2: intimate exchange, So the penny starts to drop. 902 00:47:36,102 --> 00:47:38,902 Speaker 1: There's no doubt the last few years we've seen such 903 00:47:39,742 --> 00:47:46,502 Speaker 1: an uproar about sexual violence and things that women go through, 904 00:47:46,542 --> 00:47:49,342 Speaker 1: even just sexual harassment in workplaces, that kind of thing. 905 00:47:49,982 --> 00:47:51,862 Speaker 1: Do you think this is the way we help change it? 906 00:47:52,062 --> 00:47:55,382 Speaker 1: By getting to these schools and teaching these boys legal definitions, 907 00:47:55,422 --> 00:47:56,662 Speaker 1: teaching these girls knowledge. 908 00:47:56,822 --> 00:48:00,422 Speaker 2: It's the alternative, don't teach it. See. I spend about 909 00:48:00,462 --> 00:48:04,422 Speaker 2: half of my time lecturing and corporations on harassment, sexual harassment, bullying. 910 00:48:04,502 --> 00:48:07,342 Speaker 2: I do investigations and things such as that. Right, I've 911 00:48:07,382 --> 00:48:09,742 Speaker 2: done that for twenty five years along with this work. 912 00:48:10,542 --> 00:48:13,262 Speaker 2: Sexual harassment is still the number one most common form 913 00:48:13,422 --> 00:48:17,182 Speaker 2: of an appropriate workplace conduct in the Australian workplace, and 914 00:48:17,222 --> 00:48:19,102 Speaker 2: it has been for the twenty five years that I've 915 00:48:19,102 --> 00:48:24,662 Speaker 2: done these talks. But we have dramatically reduced the amount 916 00:48:24,942 --> 00:48:28,182 Speaker 2: of inappropriate workplace conduct. There's no argument. So if we 917 00:48:28,222 --> 00:48:32,742 Speaker 2: go back twenty five years to today, today's workplace is 918 00:48:33,462 --> 00:48:37,982 Speaker 2: generally a lot better. The expectations are higher, policies are better, 919 00:48:38,022 --> 00:48:40,822 Speaker 2: implementation of policies are better all that type of thing, 920 00:48:41,502 --> 00:48:45,862 Speaker 2: but we still recognize that, for example, sexual harassment is 921 00:48:46,182 --> 00:48:48,982 Speaker 2: number one. Now, sex harassment doesn't have to be male 922 00:48:49,062 --> 00:48:52,422 Speaker 2: to female. It usually is, though, but nothing in policy 923 00:48:52,622 --> 00:48:55,302 Speaker 2: says that sexual harassment is really just a sub section 924 00:48:55,382 --> 00:49:00,542 Speaker 2: of workplace harassment. Yeah, so it's uninvited, unwelcome, unreciprocated behavior 925 00:49:00,982 --> 00:49:05,182 Speaker 2: of a sexual nature that makes somebody feel offended, intimidated 926 00:49:05,262 --> 00:49:09,462 Speaker 2: human in a workspace. It's still the most common, but 927 00:49:09,582 --> 00:49:11,982 Speaker 2: it is far less less common than what it once was. 928 00:49:12,062 --> 00:49:14,702 Speaker 2: So we're making headway, we're making moves, But just to 929 00:49:14,782 --> 00:49:17,822 Speaker 2: your point, you need to be really careful assuming that 930 00:49:17,902 --> 00:49:20,822 Speaker 2: your staff that come into your workplace know all these 931 00:49:20,822 --> 00:49:23,782 Speaker 2: policies because they don't teach them at school, they don't 932 00:49:23,782 --> 00:49:27,582 Speaker 2: teach them at university. And a lot of young kids 933 00:49:27,582 --> 00:49:29,742 Speaker 2: that will go to UNI, they're coming into the workplace 934 00:49:29,782 --> 00:49:32,542 Speaker 2: twenty three, twenty four. It's their first job. But because 935 00:49:32,542 --> 00:49:36,342 Speaker 2: they're twenty three or twenty four, sometimes their employers think, oh, 936 00:49:36,422 --> 00:49:40,022 Speaker 2: they'll know all this. They don't know it. So you 937 00:49:40,102 --> 00:49:42,182 Speaker 2: make a really good point. The more training that we 938 00:49:42,262 --> 00:49:44,942 Speaker 2: can do, the more people are able to identify these 939 00:49:44,982 --> 00:49:48,942 Speaker 2: behaviors call them out, but also regulate themselves, because there's 940 00:49:48,942 --> 00:49:51,462 Speaker 2: a big push in the Australian workplace to get staff 941 00:49:51,502 --> 00:49:54,782 Speaker 2: to call out harassment bullying. But you've got to make 942 00:49:54,782 --> 00:49:57,502 Speaker 2: sure your staff know what the definitions of those terms are, 943 00:49:57,782 --> 00:50:01,662 Speaker 2: because most of them don't know. If people have more knowledge, 944 00:50:01,742 --> 00:50:05,142 Speaker 2: the choices that they're making are more informed on both 945 00:50:05,182 --> 00:50:08,662 Speaker 2: sides of the equation with regard to their conduct, but also, 946 00:50:08,782 --> 00:50:12,222 Speaker 2: perhaps just as importantly, with regard to being able to 947 00:50:12,302 --> 00:50:15,382 Speaker 2: identify conduct directed to them as being Hang on, now, 948 00:50:15,422 --> 00:50:17,942 Speaker 2: I don't have to cop that that's harassment. That's whatever 949 00:50:17,982 --> 00:50:20,062 Speaker 2: it is. I'm going to call that out. But if 950 00:50:20,062 --> 00:50:22,662 Speaker 2: you're not sure what it is, if no one's told 951 00:50:22,702 --> 00:50:25,062 Speaker 2: you the definition, all the definition's wrong, you're going to 952 00:50:25,102 --> 00:50:27,862 Speaker 2: sit back on your heels. It's the same principle as 953 00:50:28,422 --> 00:50:31,582 Speaker 2: young women who aren't told the offense, like unlawful sexual 954 00:50:31,622 --> 00:50:35,022 Speaker 2: touching and stuff. It happens the people who do it, 955 00:50:35,062 --> 00:50:38,462 Speaker 2: usually young men, do it repeatedly. The girls speak to 956 00:50:38,502 --> 00:50:40,222 Speaker 2: their girlfriends about it, and they're from toil. I don't 957 00:50:40,222 --> 00:50:41,902 Speaker 2: worry about him. He's just an asshole. He does that 958 00:50:42,022 --> 00:50:44,622 Speaker 2: to everybody. Then they'll go in one of the talks 959 00:50:44,662 --> 00:50:46,742 Speaker 2: and suddenly realize this stuff that's happening to me is 960 00:50:46,742 --> 00:50:48,982 Speaker 2: a criminal offense, and each time someone does it in 961 00:50:49,062 --> 00:50:51,902 Speaker 2: you South Wales, it carries a five year imprisonment to him. Okay, 962 00:50:52,022 --> 00:50:56,062 Speaker 2: maybe I will speak out about it so knowledge is powered. 963 00:50:56,462 --> 00:50:58,302 Speaker 1: I want to finish by going to the other end 964 00:50:58,342 --> 00:51:00,542 Speaker 1: of the scale. Yeah, you talk about this in your book, 965 00:51:00,582 --> 00:51:02,942 Speaker 1: and I understand you probably don't put this into practice anymore. 966 00:51:03,062 --> 00:51:08,422 Speaker 1: But if someone is confronted with the worst of the worst, 967 00:51:08,542 --> 00:51:12,662 Speaker 1: someone is physically trying to attack them, how do you 968 00:51:12,742 --> 00:51:16,462 Speaker 1: protect yourself, especially as a woman to a man. I've 969 00:51:16,542 --> 00:51:19,382 Speaker 1: read you saying things like you hate that women are 970 00:51:19,422 --> 00:51:22,302 Speaker 1: made to feel like because they're not physically big enough, 971 00:51:22,502 --> 00:51:25,702 Speaker 1: they can't protect themselves. So how do they protect themselves? 972 00:51:25,702 --> 00:51:27,382 Speaker 2: Well, look, the only way I could answer that is 973 00:51:27,422 --> 00:51:30,542 Speaker 2: if you or my daughter asking me, who's about your size? 974 00:51:30,582 --> 00:51:32,382 Speaker 2: My daughter, you know, if she said to me, Dad, 975 00:51:33,262 --> 00:51:35,782 Speaker 2: if someone grabs me, and I have two options to 976 00:51:35,902 --> 00:51:38,742 Speaker 2: either stay where I am or or fight back, how 977 00:51:38,782 --> 00:51:41,942 Speaker 2: do I defend myself? Well, I guess to answer the question, 978 00:51:42,262 --> 00:51:44,902 Speaker 2: the idea that self defense means you have to overpower 979 00:51:45,022 --> 00:51:48,622 Speaker 2: somebody is a myth, you know, just ask anyone who's 980 00:51:48,662 --> 00:51:53,582 Speaker 2: done martial arts. Martial arts have been around four thousands 981 00:51:53,622 --> 00:51:57,422 Speaker 2: of years. There's not one There's not one martial art 982 00:51:57,662 --> 00:52:00,142 Speaker 2: that you and I could study anywhere in the world 983 00:52:00,302 --> 00:52:03,022 Speaker 2: that will teach us how to overparent attack it. So 984 00:52:03,102 --> 00:52:05,662 Speaker 2: if we look at martial arts as being the sort 985 00:52:05,662 --> 00:52:09,182 Speaker 2: of the Dawan of physical self defense, because it's got 986 00:52:09,182 --> 00:52:12,462 Speaker 2: a thousand years of his behind it, how come not 987 00:52:12,702 --> 00:52:16,742 Speaker 2: one martial arts teaches how to overparent attacker because that's 988 00:52:16,822 --> 00:52:19,742 Speaker 2: the total opposite to what self defense is. So, and 989 00:52:19,862 --> 00:52:22,422 Speaker 2: this is a really important message for women to hear 990 00:52:22,702 --> 00:52:27,022 Speaker 2: because generally, not exclusively, but generally, if a woman is 991 00:52:27,102 --> 00:52:29,702 Speaker 2: in a physical confrontation with a male, the male will 992 00:52:29,822 --> 00:52:33,542 Speaker 2: generally be larger and probably physically stronger. So if you 993 00:52:33,662 --> 00:52:38,062 Speaker 2: go into that thinking I can't defend myself because I 994 00:52:38,182 --> 00:52:42,982 Speaker 2: can't overpower him, you've created a definition of self defense 995 00:52:43,542 --> 00:52:46,142 Speaker 2: which not only is disputed by a thousand years of 996 00:52:46,222 --> 00:52:49,062 Speaker 2: self defense history martial arts, but it's also going to 997 00:52:49,062 --> 00:52:53,422 Speaker 2: stop you from doing anything. So martial arts do two things. 998 00:52:54,062 --> 00:52:56,782 Speaker 2: The first thing martial arts do is they show you 999 00:52:57,142 --> 00:53:01,702 Speaker 2: how to identify your opponent's weakness. The second thing martial 1000 00:53:01,782 --> 00:53:05,382 Speaker 2: arts do, and people spend years and years learning it is. 1001 00:53:05,582 --> 00:53:07,822 Speaker 2: They show you how to exploit the weakness. That's it. 1002 00:53:08,222 --> 00:53:11,142 Speaker 2: That's the two things martial arts teach. And the longer 1003 00:53:11,182 --> 00:53:13,502 Speaker 2: you do it, the more effectively you can do that. 1004 00:53:13,862 --> 00:53:15,502 Speaker 2: But you don't have through martial arts to do that. 1005 00:53:16,062 --> 00:53:18,942 Speaker 2: So if I grab you, I'm one hundred and five kilos, 1006 00:53:18,982 --> 00:53:22,702 Speaker 2: you're not. You can't overpower me. That's my advantage, So 1007 00:53:22,822 --> 00:53:25,662 Speaker 2: don't play to my advantage. So if you're my daughter, 1008 00:53:26,222 --> 00:53:29,262 Speaker 2: I would say if guy grabbed you, if you want 1009 00:53:29,302 --> 00:53:31,382 Speaker 2: to defend yourself, get out of your head this idea 1010 00:53:31,462 --> 00:53:32,982 Speaker 2: that that means that you've got to pick me up 1011 00:53:33,022 --> 00:53:35,862 Speaker 2: and throw me over your shoulder because you can't so 1012 00:53:36,022 --> 00:53:41,622 Speaker 2: identify my weakness or what's my weakness, eyes, nose, throat, groin, feet, 1013 00:53:42,982 --> 00:53:45,982 Speaker 2: So don't punch me in the stomach, they won't do 1014 00:53:46,022 --> 00:53:48,422 Speaker 2: a thing. Don't hit me ten times on the chest, 1015 00:53:48,982 --> 00:53:50,982 Speaker 2: hit me once across the bridge into my nose. My 1016 00:53:51,102 --> 00:53:53,302 Speaker 2: nose will shatter. I can't see anything. I'll let you go. 1017 00:53:53,422 --> 00:53:55,782 Speaker 2: Bring my hands up to my face, and you perhaps 1018 00:53:55,862 --> 00:53:58,582 Speaker 2: now in a better position to employ the number one 1019 00:53:59,342 --> 00:54:04,622 Speaker 2: strategy of self defense run one strike, so that doesn't 1020 00:54:04,662 --> 00:54:07,622 Speaker 2: require power knee me in the groin, slam your heel 1021 00:54:07,662 --> 00:54:09,902 Speaker 2: through the top of my foot to break the meta tassels, 1022 00:54:09,942 --> 00:54:13,382 Speaker 2: I gou me, punch me in the throat. Now, these 1023 00:54:13,422 --> 00:54:15,382 Speaker 2: are all things that some of your listeners would go, well, 1024 00:54:15,862 --> 00:54:19,422 Speaker 2: I couldn't do that. That's what you've got to overcome. 1025 00:54:19,502 --> 00:54:22,142 Speaker 2: Why couldn't you do that? Pick up a child who's 1026 00:54:22,262 --> 00:54:26,222 Speaker 2: six months old out of a bassinet. That child's afraid 1027 00:54:26,262 --> 00:54:30,982 Speaker 2: of you. They'll start screaming yep, and they'll start reaching 1028 00:54:31,022 --> 00:54:32,702 Speaker 2: out with their little feet in their little hands. And 1029 00:54:32,782 --> 00:54:34,502 Speaker 2: if a little one grabs hold of you and grabs 1030 00:54:34,502 --> 00:54:36,422 Speaker 2: hold it, you've got to ply them off. No one's 1031 00:54:36,462 --> 00:54:40,222 Speaker 2: taught them that that's a learnt response to being threatened. 1032 00:54:41,302 --> 00:54:43,422 Speaker 2: But what we tend to do for fifty percent of 1033 00:54:43,462 --> 00:54:45,702 Speaker 2: the population is when they're old enough to listen, we 1034 00:54:45,822 --> 00:54:48,502 Speaker 2: tell all, no goodness, me, don't do that. Boys aren't 1035 00:54:48,502 --> 00:54:51,422 Speaker 2: told not to fight back. Boys are told if you don't, 1036 00:54:51,422 --> 00:54:54,462 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with you. So it's only fifty percent 1037 00:54:54,502 --> 00:54:56,982 Speaker 2: of the population has sold this idea that to defend 1038 00:54:57,022 --> 00:54:58,262 Speaker 2: yourself you have to overbit you know. 1039 00:54:58,542 --> 00:55:02,342 Speaker 1: So it's challenging that it's really interesting when you brought 1040 00:55:02,422 --> 00:55:05,262 Speaker 1: up that child. I'm a mother to an eighteen month old, 1041 00:55:05,462 --> 00:55:07,222 Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, I don't know if I 1042 00:55:08,582 --> 00:55:11,382 Speaker 1: would have the confidence to protect myself by gouging someone's 1043 00:55:11,422 --> 00:55:14,222 Speaker 1: eyes out, but if someone went for him, yeah, there 1044 00:55:14,342 --> 00:55:16,422 Speaker 1: is no doubt in my mind that I would go 1045 00:55:16,542 --> 00:55:17,102 Speaker 1: for their eyes. 1046 00:55:17,422 --> 00:55:20,862 Speaker 2: Yeah. Imagine someone telling you if you're walking home with 1047 00:55:20,942 --> 00:55:23,222 Speaker 2: your little one in a stroll and a car pulls up, 1048 00:55:23,262 --> 00:55:25,142 Speaker 2: guy jumps, he's not after yours, after your little one. 1049 00:55:25,902 --> 00:55:29,542 Speaker 2: The reaction in the reaction, it's like that's instinct. Well, 1050 00:55:29,582 --> 00:55:33,142 Speaker 2: the instinct's always there, it's just now you're thinking not 1051 00:55:33,182 --> 00:55:35,342 Speaker 2: about yourself. You're thinking about this little one that you've 1052 00:55:35,382 --> 00:55:36,942 Speaker 2: got to protect. You're not going to look at the 1053 00:55:36,982 --> 00:55:39,422 Speaker 2: size of the person, you know, and if three people 1054 00:55:39,502 --> 00:55:40,982 Speaker 2: jump out of the car, you'll go, well, I'll take 1055 00:55:41,022 --> 00:55:43,142 Speaker 2: on three of you. Or would you say, oh, three people, 1056 00:55:43,262 --> 00:55:45,662 Speaker 2: or you can have my son? Or would you say 1057 00:55:46,142 --> 00:55:47,782 Speaker 2: the guy that got out of the car he was 1058 00:55:47,822 --> 00:55:49,702 Speaker 2: a bit bigger than I think, so I let him 1059 00:55:49,742 --> 00:55:51,622 Speaker 2: take my son. You couldn't care less how big the 1060 00:55:51,702 --> 00:55:53,342 Speaker 2: guy was. He could have a neck the size of 1061 00:55:53,382 --> 00:55:56,422 Speaker 2: a rock wheeler. Good luck getting the son from the mother. 1062 00:55:56,742 --> 00:55:59,342 Speaker 2: You will flick the switch, the bitch switch. You know 1063 00:55:59,382 --> 00:56:04,102 Speaker 2: everyone's got one. It's just tapping into what makes it work. 1064 00:56:04,142 --> 00:56:04,262 Speaker 1: You know. 1065 00:56:04,302 --> 00:56:05,782 Speaker 2: I think that you might have read in my book 1066 00:56:05,822 --> 00:56:08,022 Speaker 2: I had a story about a woman. I said, just 1067 00:56:08,062 --> 00:56:10,222 Speaker 2: imagine you had your little one with your hair, and 1068 00:56:10,302 --> 00:56:11,782 Speaker 2: you got on the lift to go down to the 1069 00:56:12,542 --> 00:56:14,902 Speaker 2: car park underneath the building. Image if you're walking to 1070 00:56:14,942 --> 00:56:16,222 Speaker 2: your car and a car pulls up and a guy 1071 00:56:16,302 --> 00:56:18,662 Speaker 2: jumps heirs, he's not interested in you, but he's going 1072 00:56:18,742 --> 00:56:20,582 Speaker 2: to take your notice. Whatever the child's name was, what 1073 00:56:20,662 --> 00:56:22,662 Speaker 2: would you do? She just looked me straight in the eye, 1074 00:56:22,742 --> 00:56:26,382 Speaker 2: just cold, so I'd kill him. I said, okay, tell 1075 00:56:26,422 --> 00:56:29,262 Speaker 2: me how you do that, and she told me. She 1076 00:56:29,502 --> 00:56:32,062 Speaker 2: screamed like she all of a sudden was defending her child. 1077 00:56:32,582 --> 00:56:35,102 Speaker 2: And when she finished, I said, see, you can defend yourself. 1078 00:56:36,302 --> 00:56:38,622 Speaker 2: It's in there. You just got to be able to 1079 00:56:38,662 --> 00:56:42,622 Speaker 2: bring it out. And that doesn't mean that you can 1080 00:56:42,702 --> 00:56:46,262 Speaker 2: only defend yourself you're your child. It means it's always 1081 00:56:46,302 --> 00:56:49,022 Speaker 2: been there. It's there there within you, it's there within everybody. 1082 00:56:49,742 --> 00:56:51,622 Speaker 2: Then your reason we think it's not there is. People 1083 00:56:51,662 --> 00:56:56,062 Speaker 2: has told us it's not. Well, choose not to believe them. 1084 00:56:57,342 --> 00:57:00,782 Speaker 2: You defend your son, you defend yourself, same thing. It's 1085 00:57:00,822 --> 00:57:02,582 Speaker 2: no difference, just mindset. 1086 00:57:07,742 --> 00:57:10,462 Speaker 1: Thanks to Brent for sharing his knowledge with us and 1087 00:57:10,622 --> 00:57:14,502 Speaker 1: his book and podcast in our show notes. True Crime 1088 00:57:14,542 --> 00:57:17,782 Speaker 1: Conversations is a Muma MEA podcast hosted and produced by 1089 00:57:17,862 --> 00:57:21,702 Speaker 1: me Jemma Bath with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our 1090 00:57:21,782 --> 00:57:26,022 Speaker 1: executive producer is Crystal Kornielsen. Thanks so much for listening. 1091 00:57:26,262 --> 00:57:28,862 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation