WEBVTT - Melinda Gates’ Divorce Started With A Whisper 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.767 --> 0:00:23.447 that this podcast is recorded on. Let's start, as so 0:00:23.647 --> 0:00:28.487 many gen X stories do, with Oprah. She's not my girlfriend, 0:00:28.527 --> 0:00:30.607 but if she was, I like to imagine she'd give 0:00:30.647 --> 0:00:35.087 me the kind of advice she gave today's guest. It starts, 0:00:35.407 --> 0:00:39.687 Oprah said, with a whisper. But if you ignore that whisper, 0:00:40.047 --> 0:00:42.967 it comes thumping you on the head, and that thump 0:00:43.407 --> 0:00:45.207 turns into a problem. 0:00:45.807 --> 0:00:46.727 You might not have. 0:00:46.727 --> 0:00:49.647 Oprah in your girl group to alert you to whispers 0:00:49.687 --> 0:00:54.887 and thumps, but Melinda French Gates does, and today I 0:00:55.007 --> 0:00:57.967 talked to her about the whispers that turn into thumps, 0:00:58.047 --> 0:01:00.407 that turn into something we know a lot about at 0:01:00.447 --> 0:01:05.447 this time in our lives, transitions. The whisper that Melinda 0:01:05.487 --> 0:01:08.207 and Oprah were talking about was the one that Melinda 0:01:08.207 --> 0:01:12.287 could no longer ignore that after twenty seven years of marriage, 0:01:12.327 --> 0:01:16.127 of raising kids, and running a global foundation with her husband, 0:01:16.207 --> 0:01:21.047 Bill Gates, me, Linda knew her marriage was over. I'm 0:01:21.087 --> 0:01:23.447 going to read you a short extract from her new 0:01:23.447 --> 0:01:26.807 book next day about that moment when Melinda knew she 0:01:26.847 --> 0:01:29.567 couldn't ignore the whisper or the thunking on the head. 0:01:30.287 --> 0:01:34.327 It was incredibly destabilizing to find myself in that position. 0:01:34.687 --> 0:01:37.087 I had never ever imagined that I was someone who 0:01:37.127 --> 0:01:40.807 would get divorced. My three siblings are all in stable, 0:01:40.847 --> 0:01:45.407 happy marriages. My parents have been married for sixty three years. 0:01:45.567 --> 0:01:48.607 I had spent almost my entire adult life invested in 0:01:48.687 --> 0:01:52.007 this man and our family. After all of that, to 0:01:52.127 --> 0:01:57.167 contemplate approaching my sixtieth birthday single on my own it 0:01:57.287 --> 0:02:02.767 seemed unthinkable, until gradually it didn't. At some point I 0:02:02.887 --> 0:02:07.727 noticed that quietly my default assumption had changed. Once I 0:02:07.767 --> 0:02:11.927 had wondered how could I possible leave, now I wondered 0:02:12.287 --> 0:02:14.247 how can I possibly stay. 0:02:15.327 --> 0:02:16.687 I didn't travel a straight. 0:02:16.447 --> 0:02:18.807 Line to the answer. There were days when I was 0:02:18.847 --> 0:02:21.407 certain I knew what I wanted to do, followed by 0:02:21.487 --> 0:02:24.127 days when I was no longer sure. There were days 0:02:24.167 --> 0:02:26.967 when I felt confident I'd reached a final decision, and 0:02:27.127 --> 0:02:30.167 days when I went back on what I'd decided with 0:02:30.207 --> 0:02:33.127 the clarity of hindsight. I think it's fair to say 0:02:33.287 --> 0:02:38.007 that even through this excruciatingly circular decision making process, my 0:02:38.127 --> 0:02:42.327 inner voice was clear and unequivocal that I needed to get. 0:02:42.127 --> 0:02:43.447 Out of my marriage. 0:02:44.767 --> 0:02:46.767 It was the other voices that made me doubt it, 0:02:47.287 --> 0:02:49.767 voices around me that asked a lot of questions, starting 0:02:49.847 --> 0:02:52.607 with but what about what about the kids, one of 0:02:52.607 --> 0:02:55.447 whom was still under eighteen? But what about our foundation? 0:02:55.847 --> 0:02:58.567 What about having to tell my family? I didn't really 0:02:58.607 --> 0:03:00.487 care what the news coverage would be like or what 0:03:00.527 --> 0:03:02.847 the headlines would be. But the thought of telling my 0:03:02.967 --> 0:03:06.327 very Catholic parents was horrible. And then there was the 0:03:06.367 --> 0:03:10.287 other complicating factor, maybe the most complicated of them. I 0:03:10.327 --> 0:03:13.447 loved Bill. Not only that, but I valued our family 0:03:13.527 --> 0:03:17.607 life deeply, and I felt enormous responsibility to the foundation 0:03:17.727 --> 0:03:20.727 we'd started together. Was I going to rip it all apart? 0:03:21.487 --> 0:03:24.127 Was I going to forego the future we'd imagined for 0:03:24.207 --> 0:03:28.567 so long? That was an extract from Next Day by 0:03:28.647 --> 0:03:31.527 Melinda French Gates. And if some of that rings a 0:03:31.567 --> 0:03:34.167 bell with you, I'm pretty certain that just as you 0:03:34.327 --> 0:03:37.007 or I don't have Oprah on speed dial, we're all 0:03:37.047 --> 0:03:40.047 so likely not divorcing one of the world's richest men. 0:03:40.687 --> 0:03:44.447 But the inevitability of transitions isn't only for the privileged. 0:03:45.367 --> 0:03:48.447 Next Day, Melinda's book is about the day after the 0:03:48.487 --> 0:03:52.927 big thing happens, As French Gates writes, the real work 0:03:53.047 --> 0:03:56.167 starts the next day. The next day, when the graduation 0:03:56.247 --> 0:03:58.887 confetti has been swept up, or the wedding favors have 0:03:58.927 --> 0:04:01.647 been handed out, or the movers have departed, leaving you 0:04:01.647 --> 0:04:04.207 in a sea of cardboard boxes. It's when the real 0:04:04.287 --> 0:04:08.367 transition truly begins. And we can all feel that, even 0:04:08.407 --> 0:04:11.007 if our transition don't make headlines and don't come with 0:04:11.087 --> 0:04:17.807 extra zeros and decisions that will impact global philanthropy, I'm 0:04:17.847 --> 0:04:21.767 Holly Wainwright, and I am mid and I don't get 0:04:21.807 --> 0:04:24.487 to interview the likes of Malinda French Gates every day, 0:04:25.047 --> 0:04:29.367 a deeply impressive, intelligent, empathetic woman who, after being one 0:04:29.367 --> 0:04:33.007 of the few female computer science enthusiasts at her school 0:04:33.287 --> 0:04:35.927 and then university, had a major role to play in 0:04:36.047 --> 0:04:39.887 establishing Microsoft with her then husband, and an even bigger 0:04:39.967 --> 0:04:42.567 role after her kids were born in the Bill and 0:04:42.647 --> 0:04:46.727 Melinda Gates Foundation, which had delivered more than seven billion 0:04:46.767 --> 0:04:49.687 dollars in grants by the time Melinda left it. Her 0:04:49.727 --> 0:04:52.447 purpose now is to advance the cause of women and girls, 0:04:52.447 --> 0:04:55.927 and she has already, through her pivotal ventures, pledged to 0:04:56.007 --> 0:04:59.447 donate one billion dollars to that cause over two years. 0:05:00.127 --> 0:05:02.967 So I was nervous and delighted to have this conversation 0:05:03.247 --> 0:05:06.567 inspired by the book about the big transitions that Gates 0:05:06.567 --> 0:05:12.967 wants to talk about, motherhood, loss, divorce, career, shock, big birthdays. 0:05:13.767 --> 0:05:17.607 She was unsurprisingly warm and professional, boundaried, and full of 0:05:17.647 --> 0:05:19.607 the kind of wisdom I might expect from a woman 0:05:19.647 --> 0:05:22.687 who gets her life advice directly from Oprah. And so 0:05:23.487 --> 0:05:28.407 here is Melinda Frenchgates all the way from America. Melinda Frenchgates, 0:05:28.447 --> 0:05:30.727 thank you so much for being here with us today. 0:05:30.967 --> 0:05:32.167 Thanks for having me Holly. 0:05:32.607 --> 0:05:37.367 Your book it's beautiful, it truly is. I really loved it. 0:05:37.407 --> 0:05:40.407 I was very moved by it. Often I wish I'd 0:05:40.447 --> 0:05:42.607 had a physical copy because I would have scribbled like 0:05:42.887 --> 0:05:44.487 it was one of those books that I took a 0:05:44.487 --> 0:05:47.287 lot of notes through. And I think that there's an 0:05:47.407 --> 0:05:49.927 enormous amount in here. Although your life has obviously been 0:05:50.167 --> 0:05:53.607 certainly not ordinary, there's an enormous amount in here about 0:05:53.647 --> 0:05:57.087 the transitions that most grown up women, as I like 0:05:57.167 --> 0:06:01.047 to call us, go through in various at various times, 0:06:01.047 --> 0:06:03.807 whether that's you know, right from leaving home and starting 0:06:03.847 --> 0:06:07.687 career to motherhood, to the loss of loved ones, kids 0:06:07.727 --> 0:06:10.167 leaving home, and of course divorce. And there's a lot 0:06:10.207 --> 0:06:12.127 to talk about in all those transitions, and we will. 0:06:12.727 --> 0:06:14.767 I would love to start, though, if you're happy to, 0:06:15.447 --> 0:06:18.607 with the chapter about divorce, because you write so beautifully 0:06:18.647 --> 0:06:21.047 about it, both with a lot of honesty and restraint. 0:06:21.447 --> 0:06:24.247 That chapter starts with a recurring dream that you were having. 0:06:24.407 --> 0:06:25.687 Would you tell us about that? 0:06:26.327 --> 0:06:28.887 Sure? I start that chapter with a dream I kept 0:06:28.927 --> 0:06:33.007 having about being on a cliff and it falling away, 0:06:33.047 --> 0:06:35.447 and I was on the cliff falling away, and my 0:06:35.647 --> 0:06:38.367 family was on the other part of the cliff. And 0:06:38.447 --> 0:06:42.407 I'd had the dream enough times that you know, it 0:06:42.487 --> 0:06:44.887 didn't take a lot to figure out what it was about. 0:06:44.967 --> 0:06:48.567 And I knew I was at a transition point where 0:06:48.567 --> 0:06:51.487 I had some really tough decisions to make, and I 0:06:51.567 --> 0:06:55.087 knew I could only make them on my own. And 0:06:55.287 --> 0:06:58.367 I talk about in that chapter amongst many transitions, but 0:06:58.447 --> 0:07:02.247 in that chapter, I really talk about distilling your inner voice, 0:07:02.287 --> 0:07:05.407 that you really have to listen to that place inside 0:07:05.447 --> 0:07:08.407 of you that maybe has been whispering to you for 0:07:08.487 --> 0:07:11.127 a long time. You've been trying to ignore it, but 0:07:11.207 --> 0:07:13.167 that you need to tend to it and see what 0:07:13.207 --> 0:07:14.407 it has to say to you. 0:07:14.727 --> 0:07:17.727 That's exactly right. You say it starts with a whisper. 0:07:17.887 --> 0:07:19.967 I'm not sure if maybe you're quoting Oprah when you 0:07:20.007 --> 0:07:22.167 say that, but that often it starts with a whisper. 0:07:22.247 --> 0:07:25.127 Whatever that truth is, and it can be very difficult 0:07:25.127 --> 0:07:28.127 to tune into it. Do you have advice for people 0:07:28.207 --> 0:07:30.327 who are trying to tune into that, whether it's in 0:07:30.367 --> 0:07:34.567 a difficult part of their life, whether they're just worrying 0:07:34.567 --> 0:07:37.127 and ruminating, or whether it's really time to listen to 0:07:37.167 --> 0:07:37.807 that voice. 0:07:38.327 --> 0:07:41.367 Well, I think that you can do it in several 0:07:41.407 --> 0:07:44.167 different ways, you know. I also talk in the book 0:07:44.287 --> 0:07:47.767 quite a bit about friendships, and in my case, many 0:07:47.847 --> 0:07:50.887 female friendships. I talk about some males too, but female ones. 0:07:51.567 --> 0:07:56.607 I think we plant ourselves in other trusted relationships, like 0:07:56.727 --> 0:08:01.087 really trust a relationship, pieces of ourselves, and if we're 0:08:01.127 --> 0:08:03.527 being honest with ourselves and our friends are being honest 0:08:03.567 --> 0:08:06.247 with us, they know us in deep ways and they've 0:08:06.247 --> 0:08:08.007 known us. If they've known you over the course of 0:08:08.047 --> 0:08:11.087 your life or a long period of it, they also 0:08:11.207 --> 0:08:13.807 have a view on you that you don't always have 0:08:13.887 --> 0:08:16.687 on yourself and so when I talk about listening to 0:08:16.687 --> 0:08:19.527 your inner voice, for me, it was for sure journaling 0:08:20.167 --> 0:08:23.967 and starting by writing down what that, as Oprah calls it, 0:08:24.007 --> 0:08:28.887 that whisper was saying to me, really spending time and 0:08:28.967 --> 0:08:32.367 reflecting on it, but then also over a period of 0:08:32.407 --> 0:08:35.767 time talking to different friends about you know, how have 0:08:35.887 --> 0:08:38.687 I changed, how have I not changed? What were my 0:08:38.767 --> 0:08:41.847 hopes and dreams? Where am I with those? And so 0:08:41.967 --> 0:08:44.807 I think we can if we spend at least in 0:08:44.807 --> 0:08:49.087 my case, time in quiet meditation or time alone, or 0:08:49.127 --> 0:08:53.287 also journaling, but also in the context and company of 0:08:53.287 --> 0:08:56.807 friends and or in therapy, you start to really, at 0:08:56.887 --> 0:08:59.367 least in my case, I started to really listen to 0:08:59.447 --> 0:09:00.167 my inner voice. 0:09:00.967 --> 0:09:04.087 The book's called The Next Day because, as you write, 0:09:04.327 --> 0:09:08.047 transitions really begin the day after a life defining moment. 0:09:08.087 --> 0:09:09.487 I just want to read you a tiny bit of 0:09:09.527 --> 0:09:11.367 what you say about that you say, the real work 0:09:11.367 --> 0:09:14.047 starts the next day. The next day when the graduation 0:09:14.207 --> 0:09:16.607 confetti has been swept up, or the wedding favors have 0:09:16.647 --> 0:09:19.727 been handed out, or the movers have departed, leaving you 0:09:19.807 --> 0:09:22.447 in a sea of cardboard boxes. The next days when 0:09:22.487 --> 0:09:25.887 we begin to make choices. Sometimes unconsciously about how we'll 0:09:25.967 --> 0:09:29.527 respond to change, what will carry forward, and what we'll 0:09:29.607 --> 0:09:32.967 leave behind. If someone picks up this book because they 0:09:33.007 --> 0:09:36.087 find themselves on the edge of that next day, it's 0:09:36.127 --> 0:09:38.927 full of wisdom, But do you think there's a particular 0:09:38.967 --> 0:09:43.007 piece of wisdom that's very useful for deep breath this 0:09:43.207 --> 0:09:44.287 next stage. 0:09:45.087 --> 0:09:49.167 I would say, leave room for your plans to change. 0:09:49.967 --> 0:09:52.447 So on that next day, as you said, let's say 0:09:52.447 --> 0:09:54.487 you've even moved houses and you're sitting in the sea 0:09:54.527 --> 0:09:57.767 of boxes. You know, you may think that everything you 0:09:57.887 --> 0:10:00.247 carried from the old house is one you want in 0:10:00.287 --> 0:10:03.567 your new space, your new living space. But you know, 0:10:03.607 --> 0:10:06.487 when you get to that new living space, be open 0:10:06.767 --> 0:10:09.367 to maybe the lights flooding in in a different way 0:10:09.407 --> 0:10:13.167 than you expected, maybe you appreciate something differently in this 0:10:13.247 --> 0:10:15.767 space than you had in the last. And maybe there's 0:10:15.807 --> 0:10:18.127 actually more you need to let go of that's in 0:10:18.167 --> 0:10:20.807 those boxes that you didn't clear out before you moved, 0:10:21.407 --> 0:10:25.167 before you start placing everything in its place. So I 0:10:25.327 --> 0:10:29.087 talk about in these transitions that leave room what I 0:10:29.167 --> 0:10:32.047 call in the clearing in that space in between. In 0:10:32.087 --> 0:10:35.167 a transition, once you've ended something and before you start 0:10:35.207 --> 0:10:39.927 something next, there is huge growth that can happen, but 0:10:40.087 --> 0:10:42.727 you have to leave yourself open to that growth. 0:10:43.287 --> 0:10:45.887 One of the themes that runs through the book actually 0:10:46.127 --> 0:10:48.487 is from when you were a little girl, is that 0:10:48.567 --> 0:10:52.007 you're very goal oriented. You talk a lot about your 0:10:52.047 --> 0:10:55.207 binder of goals and plans and how one of the 0:10:55.247 --> 0:10:59.167 big lessons has been to allow the space for things 0:10:59.247 --> 0:11:02.967 to change right totally. There is a wonderful in the 0:11:03.087 --> 0:11:06.487 chapter about parenthood. There's a really wonderful bit about this 0:11:06.567 --> 0:11:10.607 because you say that even in your first pregnancy with Jen, 0:11:11.327 --> 0:11:14.567 you realize the process of letting go of perfectionism started 0:11:14.647 --> 0:11:16.527 right when you were pregnant, because you were like, I'm 0:11:16.527 --> 0:11:18.847 going to eat what I want to eat, I'm not 0:11:18.887 --> 0:11:21.927 going to deny my Well things tell me a bit 0:11:21.967 --> 0:11:24.887 about that about perfectionism and how sometimes it can. 0:11:25.007 --> 0:11:25.687 Hold us back. 0:11:27.087 --> 0:11:29.887 Well, I will say in my case, but I've also 0:11:29.967 --> 0:11:33.887 talked to a number of other women, many actually, who 0:11:34.047 --> 0:11:39.047 we hold ourselves to this perfect standard. Whatever that perfect 0:11:39.087 --> 0:11:41.807 standard is, it's different in different people's mind. There actually 0:11:41.847 --> 0:11:45.207 is no such thing. But I think sometimes it's because 0:11:45.247 --> 0:11:48.727 of either what's happened to us in life or messages 0:11:48.767 --> 0:11:51.127 that we get along the way of how we're supposed 0:11:51.127 --> 0:11:53.767 to look, how we're supposed to dress, how we're supposed 0:11:53.807 --> 0:11:57.007 to act in a business setting, in a personal setting, 0:11:57.607 --> 0:12:00.927 and if you let all of those voices in, you 0:12:01.047 --> 0:12:03.567 sort of create this image of who you're supposed to be. 0:12:03.767 --> 0:12:07.687 But that's not realistic. And so for me at least, 0:12:07.687 --> 0:12:10.847 in dropping the perfection and saying, you know what, I'm 0:12:10.887 --> 0:12:13.327 good enough, like take me or leave me if you 0:12:13.447 --> 0:12:15.047 like me the way I am, great, if you don't, 0:12:15.127 --> 0:12:17.967 too bad. As soon as I sort of started to 0:12:18.047 --> 0:12:21.767 let that drop, I write about this in that chapter 0:12:21.807 --> 0:12:24.327 and I call it's the ease of letting go. You 0:12:24.447 --> 0:12:27.607 start to live into who you are and you let 0:12:27.647 --> 0:12:30.687 go of some of those expectations. And quite frankly, for 0:12:30.727 --> 0:12:32.767 me at least, it cleared out a lot of mind 0:12:32.847 --> 0:12:35.607 space that I could spend on other things and other times. 0:12:35.647 --> 0:12:38.887 And in parenting, I learned the concept. I wish i'd 0:12:38.927 --> 0:12:41.007 learned it earlier. My kids were in middle school and 0:12:41.007 --> 0:12:42.847 I learned it, but I learned the concept of a 0:12:42.887 --> 0:12:46.247 good enough parent. I kept trying to be this perfect mom, this, 0:12:46.807 --> 0:12:49.887 do it well, work well, all of that, and there 0:12:49.927 --> 0:12:51.927 is no such thing. It was an illusion in my 0:12:52.007 --> 0:12:54.727 mind and once I realized, once I read the definition 0:12:54.767 --> 0:12:56.887 of what a good enough parent is, I could say 0:12:56.887 --> 0:12:59.967 to myself, I am definitely a good enough parent. And 0:13:00.007 --> 0:13:04.007 guess what. It made me less anxious. It took, you know, 0:13:04.207 --> 0:13:07.127 this whole level of just I just let down and 0:13:07.207 --> 0:13:09.207 let go some and guess what, it made the thing 0:13:09.447 --> 0:13:12.647 easier for my kids too. They talked about, oh, Mom, 0:13:13.167 --> 0:13:15.367 you weren't kind of on our case so much, or 0:13:15.367 --> 0:13:17.847 you didn't expect me to like look a certain way 0:13:17.887 --> 0:13:20.367 when I left the house, or you were less anxious. 0:13:20.887 --> 0:13:24.087 So it ended up being a really wonderful concept, and frankly, 0:13:24.087 --> 0:13:25.367 I wish i'd learned it earlier. 0:13:25.807 --> 0:13:28.207 There's a piece of wet parenting advice from your mother, 0:13:28.247 --> 0:13:31.727 though that I actually scribbled down, which was you said, 0:13:31.767 --> 0:13:33.807 I don't know if neuroscientists would back this, but it 0:13:33.887 --> 0:13:35.847 rings true to me. You said, the children come in 0:13:35.927 --> 0:13:38.927 sort of eighty percent who they are, and we're playing 0:13:39.167 --> 0:13:42.687 with the ten percent at the edges, so holding them 0:13:42.727 --> 0:13:46.047 back from the worst ten percent, I guess of their urges, 0:13:46.207 --> 0:13:49.887 encouraging them to push towards the ten percent best that 0:13:50.047 --> 0:13:54.767 I found that idea very very freeing in a way, 0:13:56.047 --> 0:13:58.927 and I think that that's really interesting as well as 0:13:58.967 --> 0:14:01.727 what Michelle Obama said to you. I think this could 0:14:01.767 --> 0:14:04.247 only be your book where I'm quoting Michelle Obama to you, 0:14:04.407 --> 0:14:07.087 but that she says that my job is to set 0:14:07.127 --> 0:14:10.327 them free, you know, to grow into humans, not look 0:14:10.367 --> 0:14:11.247 after little babies. 0:14:11.247 --> 0:14:12.607 Can you tell me a little bit about that. 0:14:13.247 --> 0:14:16.487 Yes, my mom also said, you know, her job was 0:14:16.567 --> 0:14:20.327 to give us our wings to fly, and she, you know, 0:14:20.407 --> 0:14:22.407 she was clear that when we launched for college, it 0:14:22.447 --> 0:14:25.007 wasn't going to be easy for her. She loved us deeply, 0:14:25.727 --> 0:14:28.607 but I always knew that she saw us as independent 0:14:28.687 --> 0:14:31.607 human beings and that we should. Her job was to 0:14:31.607 --> 0:14:34.087 help us develop and grow and then give us our 0:14:34.127 --> 0:14:36.327 wings to fly and to be who we're supposed to 0:14:36.327 --> 0:14:38.367 be in the world. And so I took that into 0:14:38.447 --> 0:14:41.567 parenting my children as well. And as I said in 0:14:41.607 --> 0:14:44.367 the book, I believe that about from her, eighty percent 0:14:44.407 --> 0:14:47.567 of their characters formed. And so when I could realize that, okay, 0:14:47.567 --> 0:14:50.367 I really can only affect kind of these edges, keep 0:14:50.367 --> 0:14:52.847 them from their worst self and nudge their best selves, 0:14:53.447 --> 0:14:55.927 I don't know, it just takes some pressure off, you know, 0:14:56.047 --> 0:15:00.447 and especially for me at least, it helped me appreciate 0:15:00.567 --> 0:15:03.447 each child for who they were, because my three couldn't 0:15:03.527 --> 0:15:08.807 have been more different. A girl, boy, girl, such different personalities, 0:15:09.247 --> 0:15:13.207 and I hear many parents say this, and so even 0:15:13.247 --> 0:15:16.607 the way I parented each of them was slightly different 0:15:16.847 --> 0:15:20.167 based on you know, how tough were they on themselves 0:15:20.247 --> 0:15:23.087 about their grades and schoolwork versus where they slacked. Was 0:15:23.127 --> 0:15:25.087 one of them slacking off a little bit, you know, 0:15:25.527 --> 0:15:27.327 and the ones that were so tough on themselves, I 0:15:27.327 --> 0:15:29.647 had to tell them to calm down, You're doing fine, right, 0:15:29.767 --> 0:15:31.927 And the one who maybe was slacking off a little 0:15:31.927 --> 0:15:33.407 you have to kind of prop that one up a 0:15:33.407 --> 0:15:35.167 little and go, okay, come on, you know, get down 0:15:35.207 --> 0:15:37.967 to work for a bit here. So it helped me 0:15:38.167 --> 0:15:41.887 to see each child for who they were and parent 0:15:41.927 --> 0:15:45.047 them for who they were, not trying to mold them 0:15:45.047 --> 0:15:48.007 into some mold amorphous mold I had in my head. 0:15:50.007 --> 0:15:52.687 Friends, there is so much more of My conversation with 0:15:52.767 --> 0:15:55.007 Melinda Frenchgates did not go away. 0:15:55.247 --> 0:15:56.327 We'll be back in a tick. 0:15:59.007 --> 0:16:03.167 In talking about that transition into parenthood, you also talked 0:16:03.167 --> 0:16:05.767 about the transition into being a working parent and the 0:16:05.767 --> 0:16:08.607 guilt that you felt. First of all, you talk about 0:16:08.607 --> 0:16:11.767 the transition of deciding to be the primary parent, the 0:16:11.847 --> 0:16:13.927 person who is going to be at home. And I 0:16:13.967 --> 0:16:16.487 wanted to just ask you quickly about that. If you think, 0:16:17.047 --> 0:16:20.247 now that's a decision that every family has to make, 0:16:20.287 --> 0:16:22.367 and if sometimes that can feel a little bit like 0:16:22.407 --> 0:16:24.647 a trap for women because it's nearly always them who 0:16:24.687 --> 0:16:27.727 becomes that parent, what do you think, Well. 0:16:27.567 --> 0:16:31.127 I think it's very different by family. Look some families, 0:16:32.207 --> 0:16:36.247 I was in an incredibly privileged position that we didn't 0:16:36.327 --> 0:16:39.807 need both spouses incomes. There are many families that need 0:16:39.847 --> 0:16:42.167 both spouses incomes if they're going to put their kids 0:16:42.807 --> 0:16:45.967 through school and have the house that they want, right, 0:16:46.447 --> 0:16:49.687 But if you're lucky enough that both spouses don't have 0:16:49.767 --> 0:16:53.847 to work, What I say to women is whatever choice 0:16:53.847 --> 0:16:55.927 you make is going to be fine. Whether you choose 0:16:56.007 --> 0:16:57.847 to stay home and raise the kids and go back 0:16:57.847 --> 0:17:00.607 to work later, you choose to stay home forever, you 0:17:00.727 --> 0:17:03.567 choose to work full time while you have kids. Any 0:17:03.687 --> 0:17:07.887 choice is yours to make, and society should let you 0:17:07.927 --> 0:17:11.447 make that choice. So I think too often we sort 0:17:11.487 --> 0:17:14.007 of assume the woman's going to stay home. And yet 0:17:14.127 --> 0:17:16.087 I can't speak to Australia, but I can speak in 0:17:16.087 --> 0:17:20.407 the United States. Of most parents today that have children, 0:17:21.007 --> 0:17:25.247 in both heterosexual and homosexual couples, both parents are working, 0:17:25.407 --> 0:17:29.567 So that is more the norm today than otherwise. And 0:17:29.847 --> 0:17:31.887 the other thing I guess I learned over time when 0:17:31.887 --> 0:17:34.167 I let go of the guilt of the fact that 0:17:34.207 --> 0:17:37.567 I wanted to work and have children. In my case, again, 0:17:37.647 --> 0:17:40.527 I was very lucky I could choose my work, and 0:17:40.647 --> 0:17:43.287 I chose that I really wouldn't work full time until 0:17:43.327 --> 0:17:46.807 my youngest ended up in preschool, that you know, I 0:17:46.847 --> 0:17:49.607 would be home for those early years. But as my 0:17:50.087 --> 0:17:53.607 kids say to me now, Mom, we're glad you worked 0:17:53.727 --> 0:17:58.327 like you weren't this completely hoavering parent, helicopter parenting me, 0:17:58.967 --> 0:18:02.367 and we could see that you also got meaning from 0:18:02.407 --> 0:18:05.007 your work, and we want to work. Like all three 0:18:05.047 --> 0:18:07.287 of my children, our adults now they're in their twenties, 0:18:07.367 --> 0:18:11.087 they all want to work. Right, You find meaning both 0:18:11.207 --> 0:18:13.967 in I think if you choose to have children, raising 0:18:14.047 --> 0:18:15.887 children and in meaningful work. 0:18:16.167 --> 0:18:19.047 Absolutely and clearly that was a very good lesson to 0:18:19.087 --> 0:18:21.327 show them, because in your particular case, I guess your 0:18:21.367 --> 0:18:22.767 children could have said, we're. 0:18:22.607 --> 0:18:23.367 Not going to work. 0:18:23.407 --> 0:18:26.327 And you know the value of it when you transition 0:18:26.407 --> 0:18:28.487 to being a working mum. You were working at the 0:18:28.527 --> 0:18:30.847 Gates Foundation, and you talk about the guilt and wishing 0:18:30.847 --> 0:18:33.247 there was another hour in the day every day, which 0:18:33.287 --> 0:18:37.247 is very relatable to nearly every working parent. Do you 0:18:37.247 --> 0:18:39.607 think that guilt, when it is very much a choice 0:18:39.687 --> 0:18:42.767 rather than necessity, do you think that guilt is harsher? 0:18:42.767 --> 0:18:45.327 And when you talk to young women, because I'm sure 0:18:45.847 --> 0:18:48.647 that many women would young women would ask you about 0:18:48.647 --> 0:18:51.687 how to juggle career and family, what do you tell 0:18:51.727 --> 0:18:53.007 them about dealing with that guilt? 0:18:53.887 --> 0:18:56.847 I tell them to work on it, to name it, 0:18:57.367 --> 0:18:59.767 to work on it, and that they are good enough. 0:19:00.207 --> 0:19:02.927 And I've also said I've asked many of them, do 0:19:02.967 --> 0:19:05.887 you know this concept of a good enough parent? And 0:19:06.247 --> 0:19:07.967 if not, I tell them what it is and I 0:19:07.967 --> 0:19:10.367 can say, well, do you think you're living up to that? Right? 0:19:11.007 --> 0:19:13.847 I think I will say this. I know so many 0:19:13.887 --> 0:19:17.367 young women that have that guilt, and I remind them 0:19:17.367 --> 0:19:20.567 that this is kind of universal for women. But the 0:19:20.647 --> 0:19:23.367 sooner they can work through it and drop it, the 0:19:23.407 --> 0:19:25.167 better off they're going to be and their child's going 0:19:25.247 --> 0:19:27.047 to be. And I also will often point out to them, 0:19:27.447 --> 0:19:30.967 your child is thriving, I mean, and they really are right, 0:19:31.007 --> 0:19:34.567 you know, But we have all these expectations on ourselves 0:19:34.567 --> 0:19:38.247 as women, or society puts them on us. Other women 0:19:38.367 --> 0:19:43.607 and other men put those expectations on us at times, absolutely. 0:19:43.527 --> 0:19:46.247 The empty nest because your children obviously are grown up. 0:19:46.287 --> 0:19:48.487 Now you write about the joy of being a grandparent. 0:19:49.887 --> 0:19:53.447 That's a big transition too, that no longer being my 0:19:53.607 --> 0:19:56.087 to do list is as long as my arm, I'm 0:19:56.207 --> 0:19:57.127 juggling everything. 0:19:57.527 --> 0:19:59.007 Have you found joy in that transition? 0:19:59.807 --> 0:20:08.167 Massive joy is right, Yeah, it is, you know, when 0:20:08.167 --> 0:20:11.447 you finally suddenly wait up and realize, oh, wait a minute. 0:20:11.767 --> 0:20:13.687 You know, I'm at a point now in life where 0:20:13.687 --> 0:20:16.647 my kids just don't need me as much. I mean, 0:20:16.687 --> 0:20:18.727 they still need you some in college, but then when 0:20:18.767 --> 0:20:21.927 they launch, it's even less right, and then to have 0:20:22.007 --> 0:20:24.967 these grandchildren. You don't get to pick when you have grandchildren. 0:20:25.007 --> 0:20:27.007 I don't know any grandparent that's got to make the 0:20:27.087 --> 0:20:29.687 decision of how old they were when their child has 0:20:29.687 --> 0:20:32.927 a child. But it's a wonderful thing because all of 0:20:32.967 --> 0:20:35.967 a sudden you find yourself doing the things you did 0:20:35.967 --> 0:20:38.647 with your children, going down the slide again, you know, 0:20:38.767 --> 0:20:41.807 running barefoot in the grass, trying to do a summer assault. 0:20:41.807 --> 0:20:43.967 If you still can, and at least for me, it's 0:20:44.087 --> 0:20:46.687 quite motivating to do my squats in the gym so 0:20:46.727 --> 0:20:49.007 I can lift up those grand babies off the floor. 0:20:49.647 --> 0:20:51.927 Absolutely just to shift gearze. 0:20:51.927 --> 0:20:53.647 I hope you don't mind me saying, but perhaps my 0:20:53.767 --> 0:20:55.767 favorite chapter in the book, I'm the one that did 0:20:55.887 --> 0:20:57.927 actually make me cry was the one about the loss 0:20:58.407 --> 0:21:01.927 of one of your closest friends, about dealing with grief 0:21:01.967 --> 0:21:04.887 and lost John Nielsen. John and his wife Emmy were 0:21:05.127 --> 0:21:07.407