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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, have you seen it? Have you seen it? Have

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Speaker 2: you seen it?

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Speaker 1: There's so much I've seen, but I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: I've seen what you're yelling about today.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Adiston has hard launched her hypnotist boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: How did she do it? I have not seen this.

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Speaker 2: Jenn Aniston has hard launched her hypnotist boyfriend that we

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Speaker 2: talked about on the show.

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Speaker 3: Because before we'd only seen Harfy's face, which is actually

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Speaker 3: relevant for a story that we will speak about later.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because they've been papped together. But she's very private,

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Speaker 2: as we know. But she posted a picture of her

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Speaker 2: and him and her arms around his waist, and it's

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Speaker 2: black and white. It's very tasteful, and it just says

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Speaker 2: happy birthday, my love, and then it says cherished love

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Speaker 2: heart emoji. I'm going to make you talk more about

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Speaker 2: this at a later date. Hello, and welcome to Mamma

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Speaker 2: Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Monday, the third of November. I'm Holly Wayne, right.

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Speaker 1: I'm Amelia Lester, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And who's what's on our agenda for today, how leaving

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Speaker 2: your bra off and putting a chain mail dress on

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Speaker 2: has become a cultural riddle on the back of one

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Speaker 2: Sydney Sweeney.

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Speaker 1: Plus, we have to unpack the worst royal crisis in

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Speaker 1: one hundred.

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Speaker 3: Years, and a viral article in Vogue has declared the

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Speaker 3: boyfriends are embarrassing. Am I reading into it too much?

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Speaker 3: Or is there a sinister subtext?

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, I am more crunchy,

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Speaker 1: fun sized bar than host today. It was Halloween on

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Speaker 1: Friday night and a lot of chocolate was consumed. But

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to do a very quick celebrity roundup

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Speaker 1: of some very notable costumes. Okay, that happened. First up,

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mia out Loud's official couple, Justin Trudeau and Katie Perry.

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Speaker 1: We called it first. They are official. They went on

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Speaker 1: a date in Paris. Justin Trudeau and his son Hadrian

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Speaker 1: dressed as a shark and surfer, respectively. But justin shark

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Speaker 1: costume was almost identical to left Shark Katie Perry's twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen Super Bowl performance meme.

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Speaker 3: Which that year that was the biggest Halloween costume was

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Speaker 3: that left shark That was an iconic costume because left

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Speaker 3: Shark maybe wasn't trying very hard?

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Speaker 1: Was that the vibe? I think that's a good joke. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And I love this for Justin because if you recall,

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Speaker 1: in the first stages of their relationship, Justin was doing

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Speaker 1: that thing that men often do in the first stages

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Speaker 1: of a relationship where they're sort of dithering. They're saying

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Speaker 1: I'm not ready. That wasn't a date. That was just

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Speaker 1: us going out to dinner. This was all reportedly, of course,

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Speaker 1: sources said. But now it seems like he's now moved

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Speaker 1: into that stage where he cannot shut up about his

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Speaker 1: new girlfriend. And I love that. It's a home There

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Speaker 1: has never been a harder hard launch. Lily Allen next up.

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Speaker 1: She dressed as children's book character Madeline, which referenced her

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Speaker 1: new track, which Holly told us all about. Holly very

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Speaker 1: quick primer, what is that track about?

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Speaker 2: So she has a song called Madeline, which is about

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Speaker 2: the other woman in David Harbour's Phone and Life, And

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Speaker 2: she famously has a song that's just like, who the

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Speaker 2: fuck is Madeline? And here's whose Madeline is. By the way,

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Speaker 2: I'm addicted to the album. I'm actually worried. I've listened

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Speaker 2: to it all weekend on repeat. I'm waking up thinking

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Speaker 2: about it, and then watching her in her Madeline costume,

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Speaker 2: and then watching her partying at the Shadow mom on

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Speaker 2: to that song. I'm like, this is Lily Allan's Talloween.

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Speaker 4: It really is.

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Speaker 1: She's owning it. Julia Fox defended her tasteless Jackie Kennedy costume,

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Speaker 1: which involved her wearing a pink tweed suit very similar

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Speaker 1: to the one that the First Lady wore when her

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Speaker 1: husband JFK was assassinated in Dallas in nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: The dress came complete with the blood splatters that Jackie

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Speaker 1: herself kept on the dress when the next president was

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Speaker 1: sworn in. Don't love it, don't love it for her,

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Speaker 1: But then what I did love is you know who?

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Speaker 1: I told you that everyone in Hollywood wants to be

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Speaker 1: Dakota Johnson right now. Call it the Dakota Johnsonization of Hollywood. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's hear from Dakota herself about what she went as.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dakota Johnson dressed as Dakota Johnson, and I think

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Speaker 1: that Dakota Johnson is going to get the most drunk tonight.

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Speaker 2: She's so cool.

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Speaker 3: She's a parody of herself. I don't know if she's

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Speaker 3: ever being serious. I don't think she knows, and that's

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Speaker 3: what I love about her.

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Speaker 2: Prince Andrew war hero favorite son, the Duke of York.

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Speaker 5: Let's bring you some breaking news that has come to

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Speaker 5: us in the last minute or so from Buckingham Palace.

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Speaker 5: His Majesty the King has today initiated a formal process

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Speaker 5: to remove the style, titles and honors of Prince Andrew.

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Speaker 2: King Charles taking action against his younger brother in the

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Speaker 2: wake of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.

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Speaker 1: People are calling this the worst royal crisis in one

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Speaker 1: hundred years. We were told it was impossible, but King

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Speaker 1: Charles has really gone ahead and done it. Prince Andrew

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Speaker 1: is no longer a Prince, the man who signed his

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Speaker 1: emails to his close friend Jeffrey Epstein hr h, the

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Speaker 1: Duke of York is now just plain old Andrew Mountbatten Windsor.

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Speaker 1: I love this for him. I love him filling in

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Speaker 1: forms when he goes to get his license renewed, where

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Speaker 1: he just now just has to write a regular person's name,

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Speaker 1: and very long one, a very long one. That's true.

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Speaker 1: He'll probably have to use extra boxes on the forms,

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Speaker 1: and in another stunning move, and you will have to

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Speaker 1: take the seventy two sailor costumed teddy bears that he

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Speaker 1: reportedly insists or arranged by his servants on his bed

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Speaker 1: in a particular order, and move them all out of

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Speaker 1: the Royal Lodge, which is where he currently lives rent

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Speaker 1: free to a cottage on the Sandringham Estate, which I

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Speaker 1: am reliably told is in a very wind swept area

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Speaker 1: of England called Norfolk. Holy, I believe this news was

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Speaker 1: such a big deal to you this weekend that you

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Speaker 1: spontaneously fractured your ankle, and that is why you're joining

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Speaker 1: us remotely. Tell me, is Norfolk really that bad?

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Speaker 2: Norfolk? Okay, so two things. You're correct. I've seemed to

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Speaker 2: have fractured my foot and I have no idea how

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Speaker 2: so this theory checks out that it was just.

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Speaker 3: So exciting that you're jumping up and down celebrate.

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Speaker 2: Just like exploded excitement. That's a possibility. So yes, if

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Speaker 2: I sound a bit different today, it's because I'm recording

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Speaker 2: from home. Norfolk is actually a beautiful place, but Sandringham

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Speaker 2: is a private estate. Look, there are many serious parts

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Speaker 2: to this story. But one of the things that's kind

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Speaker 2: of funny about it has become the obsession with royal

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Speaker 2: real estate and how the term cottage means something very

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Speaker 2: different to royal people. Then it seems due to the

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Speaker 2: average population, because when I think cottage, I think cute

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Speaker 2: little maybe two bedrooms, ivy around the door, but no,

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Speaker 2: in royal parlance, a cottage can indeed me in a

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Speaker 2: nine bedroom mansion. Anyway, I think this was is the

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Speaker 2: biggest royal scandal in one hundred years, and I am

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Speaker 2: here to take questions, Jesse, do you have any.

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Speaker 3: My first question as someone who has been like I've

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Speaker 3: seen headlines and I understand that Virginia Giuffre's memoir has

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Speaker 3: come out recently. I understand that there are explosive allegations

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Speaker 3: in there. But why now did King Charles have to

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Speaker 3: wait till his mother had died to do this?

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Speaker 2: Do you think, well, that is a big question, right.

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Speaker 2: The thing is is I think that why now of

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Speaker 2: it all, there's a few different things. The hits just

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Speaker 2: kept coming for Andrew, right, So anyone who maybe had

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Speaker 2: hoped that this was going to go away, it was

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Speaker 2: not going away. In fact, with the memoir out with

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Speaker 2: also an explosive biography of Andrew and Sarah that we

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Speaker 2: talked about on the show a while ago, exposing them

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Speaker 2: as kind of feckless, money grabbing royals. That was part

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Speaker 2: of it. Then journalism has to take a lot of

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Speaker 2: credit for this, because the digging and digging that's found

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Speaker 2: these emails between Andrew and Epstein, long after Andrew had

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Speaker 2: insisted he'd cut off Ties, just kept exposing the lies

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Speaker 2: that were mounting up and not going away. The other

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Speaker 2: why now of it all, though, is the pressure? Now

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Speaker 2: I know you don't watch the Crown, Jesse Mamelie is

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Speaker 2: surely you watch the Crown.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the whole of.

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Speaker 2: The Crown, all of the seasons put together, basically follows

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Speaker 2: the same path. Crisis happens. Royals underestimate it, everybody gets

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Speaker 2: upset about it. True royals are told you really should

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Speaker 2: do something about this. The people are angry. The royals

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Speaker 2: say no. They don't want us to be real. They

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Speaker 2: want us to keep a stiff upper lip and not comment.

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Speaker 2: And what always happens is that at some point the

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Speaker 2: pressure becomes so great that royals have to climb down.

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Speaker 2: The Queen has to go and walk about and look

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Speaker 2: at Diana's flowers or whatever, and they are proved wrong.

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Speaker 2: This is another chapter in exactly that right. Pressure and

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Speaker 2: chatter around this Andrew's story has not gone anywhere. It's

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Speaker 2: only gotten louder. And although it's very unlikely that this

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Speaker 2: decision by the King was made quickly, in fact it

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Speaker 2: definitely wasn't. It was a very complicated thing to do.

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Speaker 2: It would have been a long time in the making.

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Speaker 2: Last week he was heckled in public, which was a

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Speaker 2: very the Crown moment when he was touring a cathedral

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Speaker 2: in Lichfield. The yelling of this man over all of

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Speaker 2: the walkabouts and normally just about getting teddy bears and

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Speaker 2: things that are like how long did you know? How

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Speaker 2: did you know about Andrew? What's been done to cover

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Speaker 2: it up? Was like a very visceral illustration of the

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Speaker 2: distraction that this has become. No one in the royal

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Speaker 2: family could do anything until the Andrew factor was dealt with,

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Speaker 2: and I just think that pressure just got too much. Holly.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, we should mention that Virginia Giffrey's family have welcomed

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Speaker 1: to this move, and they've described the events transpiring as

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Speaker 1: an ordinary American girl taking down a prince. Andrew has

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Speaker 1: denied all the allegations against him, but others survivors of

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking have also said that they are

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Speaker 1: glad that accountability is coming for the Royal family. Does

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Speaker 1: it actually surprise you that it happened at all? Because

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Speaker 1: Charles until recently was telling us that he could not

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Speaker 1: do this. That was the line we were getting that

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Speaker 1: it was just literally impossible to take away the title

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Speaker 1: of prince. So are you surprised that he did it?

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Speaker 1: And do you think William basically pushed him into doing this?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think William pushed him into doing it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that Charles was directly saying this can't

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Speaker 2: be done. But the truth of it is it is unprecedented, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's almost unprecedented. Without getting way too weedy, the last

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Speaker 2: time something like this kind of happened was after acts

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Speaker 2: of literal tradership, when members of the royal family. There's

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Speaker 2: a connection of the Royal family through Queen Victoria that's

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Speaker 2: connected to Germany. There was a prince that actually fought

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Speaker 2: for the Germans during World War One and then became

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Speaker 2: entangled with the Nazis in World War Two, he lost

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Speaker 2: his title. So it does happen. But remember even when

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Speaker 2: the king stepped down and famously King Edward the Eighth

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Speaker 2: abdicated in nineteen thirty six. He stepped down to go

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Speaker 2: and marry Wallace Simpson. Everybody knows that story. He obviously

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Speaker 2: gave up his king title, but he kept his duke title.

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Speaker 2: He was the Duke of Windsor until he died, So

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Speaker 2: it isn't something that happens very often. And everybody was saying,

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Speaker 2: and I think I said this on this show and

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Speaker 2: certainly on the Quickie, that birthright titles directly given to

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Speaker 2: you because of your line of succession for the monarch

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Speaker 2: couldn't be taken away. But the loophole is is that

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Speaker 2: every title that a royal has is at the pleasure

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Speaker 2: of the monarch. So if the monarch really really wants

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Speaker 2: to he she can do it. And it has been

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Speaker 2: a big shot.

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Speaker 1: So was he pushed by William?

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Speaker 2: So I've heard some really interesting reporting that says that's

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Speaker 2: not true, that William actually is concerned for the state

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Speaker 2: of Andrew's mental health. There is no question this really

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Speaker 2: interesting reporting I was hearing from Emily Matelis, who is

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Speaker 2: the reporter who did that really famous Andrew interview for

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Speaker 2: Newsnight in twenty nineteen. She's amazing. I was saying that

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Speaker 2: you've got to remember that King Charles knows that he

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Speaker 2: is an interim king because his mother lived so long,

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Speaker 2: reigned for so long. Even though Charles has been warming

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Speaker 2: up for this moment his entire life, he knows that

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Speaker 2: he's got this very short window. Ultimately, when it became

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Speaker 2: clear that this distraction wasn't going away, he wants to

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Speaker 2: clear the way for William to not have to deal

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Speaker 2: with all this kind of shit. William has been very

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Speaker 2: public about saying that he wants to change the monarchy,

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Speaker 2: that he has a different view of it, that he

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Speaker 2: wants it to be smaller. I wants it to focus

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Speaker 2: more on things that count in his mind than the

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Speaker 2: pomp and ceremony. So I think this was the King,

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Speaker 2: and I think he did it belatedly. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he don't necessarily deserves a whole lot of glory for it.

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Speaker 2: He could have done it a long time ago, but

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Speaker 2: I think it was him.

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Speaker 3: I was reminded that Queen Camilla has been a fierce

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Speaker 3: advocate against domestic violence, but also sexual assault, like that's

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Speaker 3: been where her charity worker advocacy has been focused. So

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Speaker 3: I also wondered about her role in all of this,

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Speaker 3: given that's clearly so close to her heart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that what has happened is when he

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Speaker 2: was first stripped of some of his honors by the

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Speaker 2: Queen after the News Night interview, he was kind of

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Speaker 2: told go away, you don't have an official role anymore,

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Speaker 2: but you can still come to family events. So he

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Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to come out on the balcony, but he

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Speaker 2: was allowed to come to Easter and Christmas and.

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Speaker 3: The funerals, where William looked horrified.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what that meant is that so he was at

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Speaker 2: that funeral. Now I've read a lot of reporting that

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Speaker 2: saying that appearance was so tone deaf, so titid of him,

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Speaker 2: because he looked to be like Josh. He's looked like

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Speaker 2: a man who's excited to be out right. Queen Camilla

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Speaker 2: as you say, Jesse and also Edward's wife, the Duchess

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Speaker 2: of Edinburgh. Sophie is also really involved in work about

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Speaker 2: sexual violence and protecting victims of it. She's actually just

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Speaker 2: recently been in the Democratic Republic of Congo doing some

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Speaker 2: work around this. So this is stuff that is seriously

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Speaker 2: close to some of the very senior female royals his heart,

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Speaker 2: and I think that the us among all the noise

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Speaker 2: that was coming along for them, the jus position of

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Speaker 2: them going out and doing this work and then having

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Speaker 2: to stand next to Prince Andrew as he was then

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Speaker 2: at funerals Easter, Christmas. You know, all of those events

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Speaker 2: just had become too untenable. Yet another illustration of the

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Speaker 2: hypocrisy that the British people are really getting sick of

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Speaker 2: in the royal family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so how damaging do you think this is? If

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Speaker 1: this is the worst royal crisis in one hundred years?

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to when Diana died and Queen Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: misread the room on that, and then there was the

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Speaker 1: whole scandal about the flags at Buckingham Palace not being

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Speaker 1: flown at half mast. People back then talked about whether

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Speaker 1: or not the Royal family could survive this. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that this is going to assuage the public the

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Speaker 1: fact that he's no longer a prince and a duke

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Speaker 1: or do you think that this scandal is going to

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Speaker 1: keep on going for Charles and potentially William.

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Speaker 2: The problem is is that now that Andrew isn't a prince,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of speculation that, you know, there are

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Speaker 2: going to be more allegations, and maybe not legal allegations,

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Speaker 2: but just more and more claims of his like despicable behavior. Really,

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Speaker 2: as you said, Amelia, he has always denied that he

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Speaker 2: even met Virginia Giffrey, despite the photographic evidence that he

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Speaker 2: says was fake, and despite her claims that they not

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Speaker 2: only met, but had sex three times in three different

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Speaker 2: situations in three different countries. He's always denied it. But

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Speaker 2: still he paid her a lot of money, of his

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Speaker 2: mum's money, to stop saying that about him. But also

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Speaker 2: coming out of that biography and lots of other reports

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Speaker 2: that are bubbling around, there are lots of other things.

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Speaker 2: Did he pay for sex workers in Thailand? Has he

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Speaker 2: done all kinds of unsavory things at the behest of

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Speaker 2: his rich friends, as it were? And the thing is

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Speaker 2: is that when you're in the royal family, there's a

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Speaker 2: certain level of protection afforded to you when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the media digging around in that. So there are

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Speaker 2: lots of reports that did not reflect well on the

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Speaker 2: royal family that when this stuff started coming out about

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Speaker 2: Andrew and Epstein, some publications were told by the royal family,

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Speaker 2: if you keep going on this, you will be denied

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Speaker 2: access to the Royals, So you know, that kind of

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Speaker 2: clothes shop, that kind of we know he's on the nose,

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Speaker 2: but he's one of our own. We're closing ranks around him.

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Speaker 2: That's all gone. There is also the possibility that there

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Speaker 2: could be legal action against him in the Jiffray case.

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Speaker 2: There's possibility that he could be quizzed over the Epstein

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Speaker 2: files in a broader sense by America. So all those

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Speaker 2: things might happen. And the problem with that is that

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Speaker 2: if the stories keep coming, is casting him out of

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Speaker 2: the family at the last possible moment enough for the

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Speaker 2: king to be able to survive it. I actually do

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Speaker 2: think it's really serious for them, because I think that

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Speaker 2: Britain is in a mess at the moment politically and culturally,

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Speaker 2: and I think there is very little tolerance for hypocrisy

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Speaker 2: of the super rich. You know, It's not dissimilar to

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Speaker 2: what's kind of blowing up in the States. And I

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Speaker 2: think that there are going to be a lot of

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Speaker 2: questions about this, and I do think and I think

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Speaker 2: we're going to do a subject where we talk a

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Speaker 2: bit more about William and Kate and Harry and all

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Speaker 2: of that. But I do think that they're has never

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Speaker 2: been more pressure for the royal family to modernize, to

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Speaker 2: become much more like their Nordic friends, and like cut

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Speaker 2: the list right down, you know, start riding bikes, out

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Speaker 2: riding bikes, having to get jobs, all of those things.

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Speaker 2: And also the other pressure that isn't going to go

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Speaker 2: away for Charles is that, yes, Andrew's been banished, but

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Speaker 2: he's been banished to a really nice house in a

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Speaker 2: really nice part of Britain. And some of that's unfair

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Speaker 2: because that's the only way for him to get protection,

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Speaker 2: you know, security protection, which seems quite reasonable really, but

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Speaker 2: the King's saying, I'm paying for it all, so he's

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Speaker 2: still bankrolling his degenerate brother. So those questions aren't going

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Speaker 2: to go away. And I think this is an ongoing

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Speaker 2: crisis for them. But the spin from the palace seems

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Speaker 2: to be the King had a backbone, the King did

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Speaker 2: what his mother wasn't prepared to do. The King has

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Speaker 2: dealt with it.

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Speaker 1: In a moment.

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Speaker 3: One of the most viral articles of the year has

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Speaker 3: rubbed me the wrong way, But is a vogue theory

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Speaker 3: about embarrassing boyfriends actually just a sign of progress. Look

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Speaker 3: as the person in this room with a framed photo

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Speaker 3: of Bernie Sanders on my desk, I feel best equipped

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Speaker 3: to bring the story you might have seen over the

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Speaker 3: weekend about Billie Eilish and billionaires. Here is what the

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Speaker 3: singer songwriter said at the Innovator Awards last Wednesday night.

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Speaker 4: I would just say, like, we're going to time right

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Speaker 4: now where the world is really really bad and really

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Speaker 4: dark and people need empathy and help more than kind

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Speaker 4: of ever, especially in our country. And I'd say, if

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Speaker 4: you have money, it would be great to use it

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Speaker 4: for good things and maybe give it to some.

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Speaker 2: People that need it.

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Speaker 4: And love you all, but there's a few people in

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Speaker 4: here that have a lot more money than me. If

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Speaker 4: you're a billionaire, why are you a billionaire? No hate,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, give your money away. Shorty's love you guys,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: No hate, but give your money away, Shorties, I love

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Speaker 2: I love her so much.

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Speaker 3: Now some context. Shortly before walking on stage, she was

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Speaker 3: introduced by Stephen Colbert and he spoke about how Eilish

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Speaker 3: is donating eleven point five million dollars from her most

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Speaker 3: recent tour. So that's the context in which she's talking

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Speaker 3: about billionaires and donations.

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Speaker 1: What she's donating it too.

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Speaker 3: Everything climate crisis. I think there are a few kind

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Speaker 3: of social causes in there as well. They're about four

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Speaker 3: or five. The second piece of context I needed to

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Speaker 3: know was who was in attendance, right, And here's what

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Speaker 3: we know. A man named Mark Zuckerberg, who is worth

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Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty five billion dollars, was in the room.

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Speaker 3: According to People magazine, he did not clap when everyone

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Speaker 3: else clapped, not Mark. He went, no, no, no, you

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Speaker 3: don't punch down to billionaires. I really enjoy that detail. Now,

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Speaker 3: there was another billionaire in the room, which is Star

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Speaker 3: Wars creator George Lucas, but I've decided to leave him

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Speaker 3: alone because what I will say is it last year

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Speaker 3: he donated four billion dollars. He was given some Disney

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Speaker 3: contract and he took his four bill and he something

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Speaker 3: to do with education, and that is more money than

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Speaker 3: the three of us combined have ever donated. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not wagging my finger at him. Amelia. Do you think

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Speaker 3: that she was talking to anyone else because it was

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Speaker 3: a bold statement.

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Speaker 1: A few people said that she seemed a bit nervous

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Speaker 1: and she was saying it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think so.

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Speaker 3: I think that that's kind of just her demeanor. Do

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Speaker 3: you think she was speaking to anyone else?

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm not familiar with the Innovator Awards. Are they

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Speaker 1: multiple awards given to music innovators? I guess I think

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Speaker 1: there are.

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Speaker 3: And it was at the Museum of Modern Art in

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Speaker 3: New York, so it seems pretty legit.

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Speaker 1: I don't actually know how Mark Zuckerberg goten invited, but

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Speaker 1: what I will say is that online the consensus seemed

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Speaker 1: to be that she said something great, but also that

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Speaker 1: people inevitably took this as an opportunity to pit two

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Speaker 1: women against each other rather than focus on old Mark

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Speaker 1: with his two hundred and fifty billion. People thought or

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Speaker 1: chose to believe that Billy was speaking specifically to one

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, who is famously a billionaire through her music.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't she give a lot of money away?

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Speaker 1: Though she does, I think what she does a lot

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Speaker 1: of is kind of like under the radar philanthropy. For instance,

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Speaker 1: she gave all the truck drivers on her tour one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollar bonuses to thank them for doing such

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Speaker 1: a good job. There are countless stories of her giving

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Speaker 1: away one hundred dollar bills to people who have served

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Speaker 1: her in restaurants or at sports games. I don't think

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Speaker 1: of her as someone known for her philanthropy, large scale

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Speaker 1: giving to institutions, charities, that sort of thing. I do

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Speaker 1: think that that's probably why people immediately went to Taylor

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Speaker 1: when they heard.

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Speaker 3: That, because I think that Eilish's point is that you

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Speaker 3: should never get to billionaire status because you should be

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Speaker 3: giving it away before then. So she thinks that there

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Speaker 3: is something inherently corrupt about even the status of billionaire.

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Speaker 3: A few people pointed to Hailey Bieber, who was in

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Speaker 3: the audience, because she recently sold road her per skincare

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Speaker 3: line for one billion dollars. But then I looked, I

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Speaker 3: don't understand any of this, but she's only worth four

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Speaker 3: hundred millions, So I was like, guys, she didn't even

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Speaker 3: pocket all of that, and she's dealing.

435
00:22:31,194 --> 00:22:33,834
Speaker 1: With justin exactly a full time job. I think the

436
00:22:33,874 --> 00:22:36,354
Speaker 1: other thing about why people seized on Taylor is that

437
00:22:36,434 --> 00:22:39,954
Speaker 1: this particular album cycle, she's garnered a lot of criticism

438
00:22:39,994 --> 00:22:43,394
Speaker 1: for the many limited edition Life of a Showgirl LPs,

439
00:22:43,594 --> 00:22:46,634
Speaker 1: which are all different colors, and she sort of sold

440
00:22:46,674 --> 00:22:51,234
Speaker 1: them as limited opportunities to buy them, put countdown clocks

441
00:22:51,234 --> 00:22:53,834
Speaker 1: on her website to sort of encourage her fans to buy,

442
00:22:54,274 --> 00:22:56,874
Speaker 1: and there was some criticism that her fans kind of

443
00:22:56,914 --> 00:22:59,674
Speaker 1: feel beholden to do this to buy these things. Now

444
00:22:59,714 --> 00:23:02,594
Speaker 1: no one is compelled to buy anything, and other people

445
00:23:02,714 --> 00:23:05,714
Speaker 1: make the point in her defense that unlike other musicians

446
00:23:05,754 --> 00:23:08,714
Speaker 1: who are billionaires, for instance, Lena Gomez is a billionaire

447
00:23:08,754 --> 00:23:12,154
Speaker 1: not through her music but through rare beauty her cosmetics empire.

448
00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:14,674
Speaker 1: So people said, this is how musicians in the streaming

449
00:23:14,674 --> 00:23:18,434
Speaker 1: age have to make money, which is through these edition LPs.

450
00:23:19,034 --> 00:23:22,194
Speaker 1: But I think to Billy's point, she says, Taylor's probably

451
00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:24,834
Speaker 1: got enough money. Taylor probably doesn't need to make thirty

452
00:23:24,834 --> 00:23:26,114
Speaker 1: limited edition LPs.

453
00:23:26,634 --> 00:23:29,834
Speaker 2: I think this is about the billionaire class. I think

454
00:23:29,834 --> 00:23:32,794
Speaker 2: it's a political statement. Rich people used to give away

455
00:23:32,794 --> 00:23:36,194
Speaker 2: money quietly, but now I think, if you're not one

456
00:23:36,234 --> 00:23:39,674
Speaker 2: of the billionaire bros, you know, sitting next to Trump

457
00:23:39,714 --> 00:23:42,394
Speaker 2: and all of those things, you give it away loudly

458
00:23:42,594 --> 00:23:44,954
Speaker 2: to try and shame them. That's what I thought. Billy

459
00:23:45,034 --> 00:23:48,234
Speaker 2: was doing. Yeah, she was very much sort of because

460
00:23:48,274 --> 00:23:50,994
Speaker 2: that has become a big part of the political discourse there,

461
00:23:50,994 --> 00:23:55,314
Speaker 2: that billionaire is becoming a word synonymous with the oligarchy

462
00:23:55,514 --> 00:23:57,754
Speaker 2: and all those things. So I wonder if she was

463
00:23:57,794 --> 00:23:59,954
Speaker 2: having a dig at that more than she was her

464
00:23:59,994 --> 00:24:03,194
Speaker 2: fellow musicians. But either way, it's bold because you're going

465
00:24:03,194 --> 00:24:05,114
Speaker 2: to piss off all the people with a billion dollars

466
00:24:05,154 --> 00:24:07,114
Speaker 2: to tell them that they don't deserve those billion dollars

467
00:24:07,234 --> 00:24:09,914
Speaker 2: because the billion has liked that billion dollars.

468
00:24:10,634 --> 00:24:12,834
Speaker 3: One of the most viral stories of the year was

469
00:24:12,874 --> 00:24:16,474
Speaker 3: published last week in Vogue, and it put its finger

470
00:24:16,554 --> 00:24:20,114
Speaker 3: on a cultural phenomenon you may have noticed, and in fact,

471
00:24:20,114 --> 00:24:22,033
Speaker 3: I think we've talked about it on this show before.

472
00:24:22,794 --> 00:24:26,513
Speaker 3: Chante Joseph wrote, is having a boyfriend embarrassing?

473
00:24:26,554 --> 00:24:26,794
Speaker 1: Now?

474
00:24:27,074 --> 00:24:30,514
Speaker 3: And her response, along with the majority of the Internet

475
00:24:30,554 --> 00:24:33,834
Speaker 3: who picked this up and ran with it, was yes,

476
00:24:33,954 --> 00:24:37,634
Speaker 3: it is mortifying, which is particularly sad for Holly. She

477
00:24:37,874 --> 00:24:41,073
Speaker 3: has quite liked having the boyfriend's status for like twenty

478
00:24:41,194 --> 00:24:43,914
Speaker 3: years now, and so by the end of this segment,

479
00:24:43,954 --> 00:24:46,474
Speaker 3: I think you should probab drop it. But I'm going

480
00:24:46,514 --> 00:24:48,714
Speaker 3: to lay out Joseph's theory and then I'm going to

481
00:24:48,754 --> 00:24:51,594
Speaker 3: tell you why it makes me kind of bristle. For

482
00:24:51,634 --> 00:24:53,874
Speaker 3: so long, she says, it felt like we were living

483
00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:59,793
Speaker 3: in boyfriend land, especially online. Right, So women's online identities

484
00:24:59,954 --> 00:25:02,274
Speaker 3: centered around the lives of their partners in a way

485
00:25:02,714 --> 00:25:05,273
Speaker 3: that it never does the other way around. Men don't

486
00:25:05,514 --> 00:25:08,394
Speaker 3: do that in the same way. The article opens. If

487
00:25:08,394 --> 00:25:11,834
Speaker 3: someone so much as says my boyfriend on social media,

488
00:25:11,954 --> 00:25:15,513
Speaker 3: they're muted now, she says, posting about a boyfriend is

489
00:25:15,594 --> 00:25:18,794
Speaker 3: low key embarrassing or cringe. So you see a hand,

490
00:25:18,834 --> 00:25:21,314
Speaker 3: you might see a half face. If you see wedding photos,

491
00:25:21,394 --> 00:25:24,314
Speaker 3: you can barely see the husband's face at all.

492
00:25:24,794 --> 00:25:25,434
Speaker 1: She says.

493
00:25:25,634 --> 00:25:29,513
Speaker 3: Women want the social benefits of a partner without appearing

494
00:25:29,714 --> 00:25:35,234
Speaker 3: These are her words, culturally loserish. It is fundamentally uncool

495
00:25:35,514 --> 00:25:39,474
Speaker 3: to be a boyfriend girl. Actually, before I tell you

496
00:25:39,514 --> 00:25:41,474
Speaker 3: why this rubs me the wrong way, I want to

497
00:25:41,474 --> 00:25:44,234
Speaker 3: get a sense check. What did you guys think? Do

498
00:25:44,274 --> 00:25:46,314
Speaker 3: you reckon that there is truth to this theory?

499
00:25:46,674 --> 00:25:49,914
Speaker 2: I can't say I've noticed that. I still see plenty

500
00:25:49,914 --> 00:25:53,914
Speaker 2: of boyfriend business up there. But isn't it kind of

501
00:25:53,994 --> 00:25:58,314
Speaker 2: maybe a natural reaction to generation who have also been

502
00:25:59,194 --> 00:26:02,754
Speaker 2: shouting about their boyfriends online and then they break up,

503
00:26:02,874 --> 00:26:05,874
Speaker 2: and then they have to walk through the yea of

504
00:26:06,554 --> 00:26:10,434
Speaker 2: like the boyfriending someone online. And so now, because I

505
00:26:10,554 --> 00:26:14,634
Speaker 2: feel like my social media feeds are absolutely full of

506
00:26:15,154 --> 00:26:19,513
Speaker 2: engagement rings, weddings, the lock em down kind of vibe,

507
00:26:19,514 --> 00:26:21,834
Speaker 2: never mind the tradwives and everything. So I don't know

508
00:26:21,914 --> 00:26:25,154
Speaker 2: that I'm convinced that that's out of fashion. But maybe

509
00:26:25,194 --> 00:26:30,834
Speaker 2: it's out of fashion to shout about boyfriends rather than husband's.

510
00:26:30,674 --> 00:26:33,553
Speaker 1: I also wondered if this was a function of the

511
00:26:33,594 --> 00:26:37,354
Speaker 1: fact that influencers can sell more if they present as single.

512
00:26:37,874 --> 00:26:40,954
Speaker 1: The article quotes from some influencers who lost hundreds of

513
00:26:40,994 --> 00:26:43,554
Speaker 1: followers the minute they came out as having a boyfriend.

514
00:26:44,074 --> 00:26:45,874
Speaker 1: So I wondered if there was just sort of a

515
00:26:45,914 --> 00:26:50,194
Speaker 1: business imperative to wanting to appear a little bit mysterious, enigmatic, footloose,

516
00:26:50,234 --> 00:26:51,034
Speaker 1: fancy free.

517
00:26:51,234 --> 00:26:53,434
Speaker 3: That's true, and I suppose if the people following you

518
00:26:53,474 --> 00:26:55,634
Speaker 3: were identifying with your life stage and you move into

519
00:26:55,674 --> 00:26:58,194
Speaker 3: another one, then they can feel a bit betrayed. That

520
00:26:58,274 --> 00:27:02,234
Speaker 3: happens with lots of different transitions. But I wondered if

521
00:27:02,274 --> 00:27:06,194
Speaker 3: the subtext of this was our men a bit embarrassing

522
00:27:06,274 --> 00:27:09,834
Speaker 3: now and The reason I say that is because there

523
00:27:09,834 --> 00:27:13,434
Speaker 3: are a few quotes in there that I felt were

524
00:27:14,274 --> 00:27:15,513
Speaker 3: slightly problematic.

525
00:27:15,594 --> 00:27:18,874
Speaker 1: Do you think that Katy Perry was so mortified this

526
00:27:18,954 --> 00:27:21,714
Speaker 1: weekend when she saw that Justin dressed up as the shark?

527
00:27:21,994 --> 00:27:22,954
Speaker 1: She was a creak?

528
00:27:23,074 --> 00:27:24,354
Speaker 3: Again, this is as bad.

529
00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:25,594
Speaker 1: As uncool at the moment.

530
00:27:25,834 --> 00:27:27,394
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is as bad as when I went to

531
00:27:27,434 --> 00:27:30,394
Speaker 3: space Justin. I'm trying to get some cool points. So

532
00:27:30,514 --> 00:27:35,394
Speaker 3: this writer named Zoe Sammouzi said that women want the

533
00:27:35,394 --> 00:27:39,634
Speaker 3: prize and celebration of partnership, but understand the norminess of it.

534
00:27:39,954 --> 00:27:42,234
Speaker 3: And the one thing that didn't seem acknowledged in any

535
00:27:42,234 --> 00:27:45,354
Speaker 3: of this was that some women also like their partners.

536
00:27:45,594 --> 00:27:48,234
Speaker 3: That's the other reason why women have boyfriends is not

537
00:27:48,314 --> 00:27:52,434
Speaker 3: just because of cultural cachet or Instagram followers or.

538
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:53,554
Speaker 1: Anything like that.

539
00:27:53,674 --> 00:27:57,914
Speaker 3: It's because it might be a foundational relationship in their lives.

540
00:27:57,994 --> 00:28:00,914
Speaker 3: And there was a comment that they referred to which

541
00:28:00,954 --> 00:28:06,514
Speaker 3: was basically relationships and now republican coded it's now very republican.

542
00:28:07,114 --> 00:28:10,314
Speaker 3: It's be a common sexual relationship. And I thought, if

543
00:28:10,354 --> 00:28:17,273
Speaker 3: you start to ostracize or mock a certain choice, if

544
00:28:17,314 --> 00:28:21,354
Speaker 3: you want to call it that, then do you alienate

545
00:28:21,354 --> 00:28:25,194
Speaker 3: a group of people who then feel radicalized. Right, So

546
00:28:25,234 --> 00:28:28,714
Speaker 3: we're seeing this happen with men anyway, during adolescents, where

547
00:28:28,714 --> 00:28:34,394
Speaker 3: it's just like casually denigrating, casually mocking men is part

548
00:28:34,474 --> 00:28:36,434
Speaker 3: of I'm actually not going to say culture. I'm going

549
00:28:36,474 --> 00:28:40,834
Speaker 3: to say internet culture and progressive internet circles. I just

550
00:28:41,034 --> 00:28:44,634
Speaker 3: worry that the result of that is going to be dangerous.

551
00:28:45,074 --> 00:28:47,634
Speaker 2: Jesse there's also a very large part of Internet culture

552
00:28:47,674 --> 00:28:51,634
Speaker 2: that's about denigrating women. Yes, an enormous amount of it.

553
00:28:51,914 --> 00:28:53,794
Speaker 2: And I don't say that in any way of making

554
00:28:53,834 --> 00:28:56,394
Speaker 2: it seem like so it's okay, then what about is them?

555
00:28:56,914 --> 00:28:59,954
Speaker 2: I just mean I don't think that all the tidy

556
00:29:00,034 --> 00:29:02,914
Speaker 2: violins need to be directed in that direction.

557
00:29:03,394 --> 00:29:06,074
Speaker 1: No, But I think it's a great point, Jessie, because

558
00:29:06,154 --> 00:29:09,714
Speaker 1: think about the fact that on the right, particularly in

559
00:29:09,754 --> 00:29:14,714
Speaker 1: the US, we are seeing this embrace of heterosexual relationships

560
00:29:14,914 --> 00:29:18,674
Speaker 1: and the idea of family as the bedrock of everything.

561
00:29:18,794 --> 00:29:22,514
Speaker 1: And we hear these reports of young women attending conferences

562
00:29:22,594 --> 00:29:25,514
Speaker 1: where they're learning how to find a husband and have

563
00:29:25,674 --> 00:29:30,074
Speaker 1: kids early and make sure that they prioritize family over Korea.

564
00:29:30,674 --> 00:29:33,594
Speaker 1: And so I think you're right to be concerned that

565
00:29:33,754 --> 00:29:37,994
Speaker 1: if you are a young straight woman and you see

566
00:29:38,034 --> 00:29:41,714
Speaker 1: these two very distinct paths of either having a boyfriend

567
00:29:41,754 --> 00:29:44,754
Speaker 1: is embarrassing or by all means have a boyfriend, why

568
00:29:44,754 --> 00:29:46,714
Speaker 1: don't you have children with him? Why don't you have

569
00:29:46,794 --> 00:29:49,354
Speaker 1: more children with him? It might push you in a

570
00:29:49,354 --> 00:29:51,154
Speaker 1: bit of an extreme direction.

571
00:29:50,954 --> 00:29:56,394
Speaker 3: Yeah, or feel mocked or shamed by certain portions of

572
00:29:56,434 --> 00:29:58,954
Speaker 3: a political group. I say that because, Holly, you are

573
00:29:59,034 --> 00:30:04,274
Speaker 3: absolutely spot on. We live in a culture that rewards heterosexuality.

574
00:30:04,394 --> 00:30:08,954
Speaker 3: It just does, even online, absolutely does. But there was

575
00:30:09,114 --> 00:30:14,154
Speaker 3: something in the tone of this article that made me think,

576
00:30:14,194 --> 00:30:18,474
Speaker 3: if you start to mock what some people want, or

577
00:30:18,514 --> 00:30:21,874
Speaker 3: you start to make them feel shame about that, then

578
00:30:22,314 --> 00:30:25,434
Speaker 3: that can be a dangerous road to go down. And

579
00:30:25,514 --> 00:30:28,954
Speaker 3: I was also thinking. I read this alongside listening to

580
00:30:29,114 --> 00:30:31,674
Speaker 3: an episode of This Is Why We Fight over the weekend,

581
00:30:31,954 --> 00:30:34,194
Speaker 3: and in the first few seconds of that episode, they

582
00:30:34,274 --> 00:30:36,194
Speaker 3: have a clip of one of the it's a heterosexual

583
00:30:36,194 --> 00:30:38,674
Speaker 3: couple and they're, you know, dealing with their issues. The

584
00:30:38,794 --> 00:30:41,634
Speaker 3: man in the couple says, I still make silly decisions.

585
00:30:41,714 --> 00:30:46,554
Speaker 3: I'm still a male, And I thought, firstly, you couldn't

586
00:30:46,594 --> 00:30:48,354
Speaker 3: say I still make silly decisions.

587
00:30:48,594 --> 00:30:49,394
Speaker 1: I'm still a woman.

588
00:30:49,634 --> 00:30:51,874
Speaker 3: I think that if someone did that, you'd go, hang on,

589
00:30:52,354 --> 00:30:53,354
Speaker 3: don't talk about yourself like.

590
00:30:53,314 --> 00:30:55,874
Speaker 1: That, because you can't say girl math. You can't say

591
00:30:55,874 --> 00:30:56,354
Speaker 1: girl math.

592
00:30:56,554 --> 00:30:58,514
Speaker 2: Yeah you can. That's true, that's true.

593
00:30:58,674 --> 00:31:00,394
Speaker 1: But this wasn't a punchline.

594
00:31:00,554 --> 00:31:04,234
Speaker 3: I just thought that the comfort with which we denigrate maleness,

595
00:31:04,994 --> 00:31:06,674
Speaker 3: we roll our eyes at men and we accept that

596
00:31:06,714 --> 00:31:10,434
Speaker 3: they useless and embarrassing. To date, does it not all

597
00:31:10,514 --> 00:31:13,834
Speaker 3: become a bit self fulfilling? Like, does it not become

598
00:31:14,034 --> 00:31:14,914
Speaker 3: just men going?

599
00:31:15,274 --> 00:31:15,754
Speaker 2: All right?

600
00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:17,394
Speaker 1: So we're kind of the cultural joke.

601
00:31:18,034 --> 00:31:21,114
Speaker 2: Obviously there's some truth to that, but I still feel

602
00:31:21,114 --> 00:31:26,794
Speaker 2: like the dominant culture is overwhelmingly pushing women to settle

603
00:31:26,834 --> 00:31:30,714
Speaker 2: down early panic about the biological clocks plenty, you know,

604
00:31:30,874 --> 00:31:32,874
Speaker 2: put a ring on it. I think that the dominant

605
00:31:32,874 --> 00:31:35,514
Speaker 2: culture is very much doing that. And I mean he

606
00:31:35,554 --> 00:31:37,194
Speaker 2: has already said this, but you know, the rise of

607
00:31:37,194 --> 00:31:39,314
Speaker 2: the traadwives and the soft girls and all that stuff.

608
00:31:39,354 --> 00:31:41,474
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to politicize everything because it's so,

609
00:31:42,314 --> 00:31:45,274
Speaker 2: as you say, Jesse, like, people's actual personal lives and

610
00:31:45,314 --> 00:31:47,274
Speaker 2: whether they like someone or not has nothing to do

611
00:31:47,354 --> 00:31:51,594
Speaker 2: with the political temperature. I still feel like the overarching

612
00:31:51,674 --> 00:31:55,114
Speaker 2: culture gives the hardest time to single people, and I

613
00:31:55,154 --> 00:31:57,674
Speaker 2: think that the reason that maybe you know, there was

614
00:31:57,714 --> 00:31:59,794
Speaker 2: a line in there that you read out that was

615
00:31:59,874 --> 00:32:03,714
Speaker 2: kind of like, young women want the cachet of singleness

616
00:32:03,874 --> 00:32:06,874
Speaker 2: even when they've moved out of that stage. I think

617
00:32:06,914 --> 00:32:09,914
Speaker 2: the only reason there's cachet there is because it's still

618
00:32:09,994 --> 00:32:12,474
Speaker 2: seen as a bit outsider ish, you know, it's still

619
00:32:12,514 --> 00:32:16,194
Speaker 2: seen as a bit radical. It's still seen as you know, well,

620
00:32:16,314 --> 00:32:18,594
Speaker 2: society thinks I should find someone because I won't be

621
00:32:18,594 --> 00:32:20,874
Speaker 2: happy without them, But maybe I'm doing fine on my own.

622
00:32:21,074 --> 00:32:23,874
Speaker 2: So I think that if there's some cachet to that,

623
00:32:24,274 --> 00:32:27,234
Speaker 2: I think that's why. It's because you're bucking a trend.

624
00:32:28,194 --> 00:32:30,514
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting also what you say about how

625
00:32:30,514 --> 00:32:33,154
Speaker 2: we've come comfortable with mocking men, because I think there's

626
00:32:33,194 --> 00:32:35,834
Speaker 2: always been a certain part of female power that's about that.

627
00:32:35,914 --> 00:32:37,914
Speaker 2: When I used to edit Women's Day, there was like

628
00:32:38,274 --> 00:32:40,394
Speaker 2: a whole column in there in the actual magazine called

629
00:32:40,474 --> 00:32:43,714
Speaker 2: mea Male, and it was just women sharing stories of

630
00:32:43,754 --> 00:32:47,474
Speaker 2: embarrassing shit that domb husbands had done that were like, yeah,

631
00:32:47,994 --> 00:32:51,794
Speaker 2: just completely accepted that your mm, your mea male would

632
00:32:51,874 --> 00:32:54,714
Speaker 2: definitely put the kettle on without putting enough water in it,

633
00:32:54,834 --> 00:32:56,874
Speaker 2: or you know, just whatever silly thing like. I think

634
00:32:56,914 --> 00:32:59,114
Speaker 2: that's always been a part of female discourse.

635
00:32:59,594 --> 00:32:59,954
Speaker 4: I don't know.

636
00:32:59,994 --> 00:33:01,954
Speaker 2: I mean, I think your point is interesting, but I

637
00:33:02,074 --> 00:33:04,954
Speaker 2: don't buy that we are living in a culture that

638
00:33:04,994 --> 00:33:07,074
Speaker 2: has let go of the idea of coupledom. I think,

639
00:33:07,194 --> 00:33:08,954
Speaker 2: if anything, the opposite.

640
00:33:09,114 --> 00:33:11,914
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I'm uncomfortable with a few things.

641
00:33:11,994 --> 00:33:15,434
Speaker 3: The first is that sexuality is at all political. I

642
00:33:15,434 --> 00:33:18,314
Speaker 3: think that whether you are attracted to men or women

643
00:33:18,434 --> 00:33:20,954
Speaker 3: or both or whatever, I don't think that that says

644
00:33:20,994 --> 00:33:23,314
Speaker 3: anything about you politically. And I kind of thought that

645
00:33:23,394 --> 00:33:27,554
Speaker 3: we'd moved away from that a little bit maybe.

646
00:33:27,594 --> 00:33:28,674
Speaker 1: And I also think that.

647
00:33:28,594 --> 00:33:33,114
Speaker 3: The language of loser, dorm or embarrassing or cringe just

648
00:33:33,154 --> 00:33:36,394
Speaker 3: feels very high school to me, And I get my backup.

649
00:33:36,154 --> 00:33:38,714
Speaker 2: I agree. But also we talked about this with em

650
00:33:38,714 --> 00:33:41,034
Speaker 2: a little bit, Like, you know, there's been a big

651
00:33:41,034 --> 00:33:43,034
Speaker 2: move in these kind of pieces that are also like

652
00:33:43,034 --> 00:33:45,954
Speaker 2: a heterosexual relationships okay and all that kind of stuff.

653
00:33:46,234 --> 00:33:48,754
Speaker 2: That really what they are is giving a voice to

654
00:33:48,794 --> 00:33:50,634
Speaker 2: a group of women who are dealing with men in

655
00:33:50,634 --> 00:33:53,434
Speaker 2: an online dating age ye feeling like they are being

656
00:33:53,514 --> 00:33:57,874
Speaker 2: treated very often in a very dismissive, commodified way, and

657
00:33:57,914 --> 00:34:00,434
Speaker 2: to tell them to shush because we can't make the

658
00:34:00,474 --> 00:34:02,914
Speaker 2: men feel bad is also not good, you know what

659
00:34:02,994 --> 00:34:05,154
Speaker 2: I mean. So I think they're allowed to say it's

660
00:34:05,194 --> 00:34:08,074
Speaker 2: tough out there, like it's tough out there and dating

661
00:34:08,114 --> 00:34:10,074
Speaker 2: guys is hard when they've got all the options in

662
00:34:10,074 --> 00:34:11,754
Speaker 2: the world in their pockets. I think they're allowed to

663
00:34:11,834 --> 00:34:13,234
Speaker 2: say that. I'm with you on that.

664
00:34:13,354 --> 00:34:16,314
Speaker 3: And I must say I've actually found the trend on

665
00:34:16,394 --> 00:34:20,554
Speaker 3: TikTok funny of single women being like, apparently it's embarrassing

666
00:34:20,554 --> 00:34:22,074
Speaker 3: to be in a relationship and they're just doing funny

667
00:34:22,074 --> 00:34:24,034
Speaker 3: things or whatever, And I'm like, yeah, I totally get that.

668
00:34:24,394 --> 00:34:27,154
Speaker 3: I think that that's transgressive in a lot of ways.

669
00:34:27,434 --> 00:34:30,073
Speaker 3: But this accepting that every man is a lost cause

670
00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:32,234
Speaker 3: and spending time with one is embarrassing.

671
00:34:32,314 --> 00:34:35,274
Speaker 1: I just I don't like it. I was wondering why

672
00:34:35,314 --> 00:34:37,794
Speaker 1: this article really struck a chord, Because it did. I

673
00:34:37,834 --> 00:34:40,314
Speaker 1: had a number of brute chats which pined with it,

674
00:34:40,394 --> 00:34:44,074
Speaker 1: and I was wondering why people found something resonant in it.

675
00:34:44,074 --> 00:34:47,674
Speaker 1: It's not a long article, it's not saying anything particularly revolutionary,

676
00:34:47,714 --> 00:34:51,554
Speaker 1: but it did seem to tap into something in the zeitgeist,

677
00:34:51,634 --> 00:34:53,913
Speaker 1: and I was wondering if it's because it feels like

678
00:34:54,034 --> 00:34:57,714
Speaker 1: a welcome corrective. Yea. And by that I mean when

679
00:34:57,794 --> 00:35:02,634
Speaker 1: I was in my twenties, which was not that long ago.

680
00:35:02,714 --> 00:35:04,634
Speaker 1: But to give you a sense, I am going to

681
00:35:04,714 --> 00:35:09,114
Speaker 1: my high school twenty fifth reunion this week. And when

682
00:35:09,154 --> 00:35:13,354
Speaker 1: I was growing up walking seven miles to school through

683
00:35:13,394 --> 00:35:18,994
Speaker 1: the snow with I lived in Sydney, Sydney, this was

684
00:35:19,034 --> 00:35:21,873
Speaker 1: not a thought that was even out there. A. The

685
00:35:21,954 --> 00:35:26,554
Speaker 1: default was heterosexuality, and B there was very much a

686
00:35:26,634 --> 00:35:30,994
Speaker 1: pressure that was pervasive from an early age that you

687
00:35:31,194 --> 00:35:35,234
Speaker 1: needed male attention to validate your existence. You just did.

688
00:35:35,874 --> 00:35:38,554
Speaker 1: And if you didn't have a boyfriend in high school

689
00:35:39,114 --> 00:35:43,274
Speaker 1: hypothetically of course I had many, I did not. If

690
00:35:43,314 --> 00:35:45,034
Speaker 1: you didn't have a boyfriend in high school, if you

691
00:35:45,034 --> 00:35:47,434
Speaker 1: didn't have a boyfriend in your twenties, there was something

692
00:35:47,514 --> 00:35:50,873
Speaker 1: wrong with you. Yeah. And I'm embarrassed to say that

693
00:35:50,914 --> 00:35:54,794
Speaker 1: out loud because it's ridiculous. But that's what the elder

694
00:35:54,874 --> 00:35:58,393
Speaker 1: millennials grew up with. And so I think that's why

695
00:35:58,434 --> 00:36:01,034
Speaker 1: it hit a chord with us because we were sharing

696
00:36:01,034 --> 00:36:03,154
Speaker 1: it because we were like, we wish that we had

697
00:36:03,194 --> 00:36:06,754
Speaker 1: this article when we were twenty two to tell us

698
00:36:06,754 --> 00:36:08,074
Speaker 1: that we'd don't need it.

699
00:36:08,474 --> 00:36:11,074
Speaker 3: There's the antithesis to the plot of sex and the City,

700
00:36:12,354 --> 00:36:13,634
Speaker 3: all the culture we consumed.

701
00:36:13,954 --> 00:36:17,394
Speaker 2: I hate to report from the front lines of high schoolness,

702
00:36:17,434 --> 00:36:20,873
Speaker 2: but I think it's quite like that's still Amelia. I

703
00:36:20,914 --> 00:36:23,794
Speaker 2: think there is still a lot of discussion about who's

704
00:36:23,794 --> 00:36:26,114
Speaker 2: got a boyfriend, who's taking someone to prom like I

705
00:36:26,154 --> 00:36:28,674
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't think it shifted as much as

706
00:36:28,794 --> 00:36:32,034
Speaker 2: some of this online discourse suggests that it has. I

707
00:36:32,074 --> 00:36:34,714
Speaker 2: wish that it had, but I'm not convinced.

708
00:36:35,154 --> 00:36:36,754
Speaker 1: Are you going to keep calling Brent your boyfriend?

709
00:36:36,834 --> 00:36:38,594
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to have to write a think

710
00:36:38,674 --> 00:36:41,314
Speaker 2: peace to try and go viral in defensive elderly boyfriend.

711
00:36:42,634 --> 00:36:49,594
Speaker 2: I thought I was cool because I had a boyfriend.

712
00:36:49,794 --> 00:36:52,634
Speaker 2: Now this article has turned that on its head. It

713
00:36:52,714 --> 00:36:55,514
Speaker 2: could be married by the end of the week after

714
00:36:55,554 --> 00:36:59,154
Speaker 2: the break. The celebrity breasts said to confuse us, and

715
00:36:59,194 --> 00:36:59,794
Speaker 2: they're working.

716
00:37:01,034 --> 00:37:04,274
Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummy

717
00:37:04,394 --> 00:37:07,873
Speaker 3: out Loud just for Mummy A subscribers follow the link

718
00:37:07,874 --> 00:37:09,953
Speaker 3: in the show notes to get your daily Joseph out

719
00:37:09,994 --> 00:37:13,634
Speaker 3: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

720
00:37:19,074 --> 00:37:22,434
Speaker 2: They are the breasts that stopped a nation's news cycle

721
00:37:22,514 --> 00:37:25,993
Speaker 2: last Thursday. Right up until that prince got shoved, all

722
00:37:26,034 --> 00:37:29,914
Speaker 2: anyone was talking about, it seemed, was Sydney Sweeney's breasts.

723
00:37:30,314 --> 00:37:32,794
Speaker 2: This obviously is an audio medium unless you're watching us

724
00:37:32,794 --> 00:37:35,234
Speaker 2: on YouTube and if you are high, but we will

725
00:37:35,234 --> 00:37:37,114
Speaker 2: put a picture of the dress we're about to talk

726
00:37:37,154 --> 00:37:38,714
Speaker 2: to you on Instagram so you can play along at

727
00:37:38,714 --> 00:37:41,433
Speaker 2: home if you haven't seen them for any reason. At

728
00:37:41,434 --> 00:37:44,154
Speaker 2: an event for Variety Magazine called and this is just

729
00:37:44,554 --> 00:37:51,873
Speaker 2: glorious the Power of Women, one Sydney Sweeney hijacked us

730
00:37:51,874 --> 00:37:54,594
Speaker 2: all with her breasts, which is one bold way of

731
00:37:54,634 --> 00:37:57,954
Speaker 2: interpreting the theme. She was being honored at this event

732
00:37:57,994 --> 00:38:01,834
Speaker 2: alongside Kate Hudson, Wonder Sykes, Nicole Scherzinger, Jamie Lee Kurtz.

733
00:38:01,874 --> 00:38:05,754
Speaker 2: That is a diverse group. Anyway, we thought we'd seen

734
00:38:05,794 --> 00:38:08,874
Speaker 2: every version of the naked dress, right, but they've evolved again.

735
00:38:09,314 --> 00:38:12,194
Speaker 2: She was wearing a textured chain mail dress by a

736
00:38:12,234 --> 00:38:17,154
Speaker 2: designer called Christian. That's interesting to Cowan. It was completely

737
00:38:17,274 --> 00:38:19,913
Speaker 2: see through and I don't want to object to fire

738
00:38:19,954 --> 00:38:21,913
Speaker 2: woman who sells her own bath water, but I have

739
00:38:22,034 --> 00:38:25,194
Speaker 2: not stopped looking at them since, just so that Amelia

740
00:38:25,194 --> 00:38:28,394
Speaker 2: gets her fashion note here it was a crystal mesh

741
00:38:28,914 --> 00:38:33,354
Speaker 2: which was manipulated onto a steel boned corset to create

742
00:38:33,434 --> 00:38:36,913
Speaker 2: a sculptural form of a classic hourglass waste. But what

743
00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:41,594
Speaker 2: it actually gave you was Sydney Swedey's magnificent breasts on

744
00:38:41,674 --> 00:38:43,074
Speaker 2: a platter, don't you think?

745
00:38:43,194 --> 00:38:43,594
Speaker 3: Yeah?

746
00:38:43,714 --> 00:38:45,194
Speaker 2: First of all, what did you to think of it?

747
00:38:45,514 --> 00:38:48,194
Speaker 1: I've been on a journey. I've been on a journey

748
00:38:48,194 --> 00:38:48,794
Speaker 1: with the breasts.

749
00:38:49,514 --> 00:38:56,314
Speaker 3: I thought that big breasted women, we've always been taught

750
00:38:56,434 --> 00:39:00,794
Speaker 3: that your job is to have them in harnesses, to

751
00:39:00,874 --> 00:39:05,354
Speaker 3: have them locked down, strapped the belts, strapped everything, as

752
00:39:05,394 --> 00:39:09,234
Speaker 3: many straps as possible, pin them down, tamed. You can

753
00:39:09,274 --> 00:39:13,114
Speaker 3: have them out, but you've got to have them constrained.

754
00:39:13,194 --> 00:39:13,314
Speaker 5: Right.

755
00:39:13,354 --> 00:39:15,194
Speaker 3: The only people who are allowed to do the naked

756
00:39:15,274 --> 00:39:18,234
Speaker 3: dress look are women who are in a cup, right,

757
00:39:18,274 --> 00:39:20,834
Speaker 3: and they get to have their beautiful backs out and

758
00:39:21,434 --> 00:39:24,954
Speaker 3: their boobies look incredible. But I thought it was against

759
00:39:25,034 --> 00:39:28,594
Speaker 3: the rules for big arrested women to do this, and

760
00:39:28,634 --> 00:39:31,794
Speaker 3: so I became low key obsessed. And what I as

761
00:39:31,834 --> 00:39:33,634
Speaker 3: soon as I saw the image, I said, no, I don't.

762
00:39:33,434 --> 00:39:35,074
Speaker 1: Need to look at the image. I need to look

763
00:39:35,074 --> 00:39:36,554
Speaker 1: at the video because.

764
00:39:36,274 --> 00:39:38,674
Speaker 3: I need to see if they move, because that's what

765
00:39:38,714 --> 00:39:41,834
Speaker 3: I thought, is that Sydney Sweeney's breasts are as far

766
00:39:41,914 --> 00:39:45,274
Speaker 3: as I know, real, and I want to see how

767
00:39:45,274 --> 00:39:45,594
Speaker 3: they move.

768
00:39:45,634 --> 00:39:47,834
Speaker 1: And so what's the answer. They moved.

769
00:39:48,314 --> 00:39:51,473
Speaker 3: They moved, and she moved very very comfortably, which I liked.

770
00:39:51,794 --> 00:39:54,514
Speaker 3: There were accusations that she was shaking her chest and

771
00:39:54,554 --> 00:39:56,914
Speaker 3: I was like, no, no, no, that's just how boobs

772
00:39:56,954 --> 00:40:00,634
Speaker 3: move along with a woman's body. She was like moving

773
00:40:00,674 --> 00:40:03,754
Speaker 3: her hands and they were just moving as they would

774
00:40:03,914 --> 00:40:06,714
Speaker 3: and they were sitting as they would when you were

775
00:40:06,714 --> 00:40:09,114
Speaker 3: in your twin and you've never had children or breastfed

776
00:40:09,314 --> 00:40:09,993
Speaker 3: all the rest of it.

777
00:40:10,594 --> 00:40:11,754
Speaker 1: I kinda loved it.

778
00:40:11,794 --> 00:40:14,154
Speaker 3: I mean, light a candle for Sydney Sweeney and how

779
00:40:14,194 --> 00:40:16,074
Speaker 3: difficult it is to have a body like that. But

780
00:40:16,834 --> 00:40:21,794
Speaker 3: I thought it was really cool, and I was mesmerized watching.

781
00:40:21,474 --> 00:40:22,754
Speaker 1: The video and the naked dress.

782
00:40:22,794 --> 00:40:26,073
Speaker 3: It does seem like that was the line it drew,

783
00:40:26,154 --> 00:40:28,074
Speaker 3: is that we're not looking at nipples and we're not

784
00:40:28,114 --> 00:40:30,913
Speaker 3: looking at boobs at shape. But I quite liked that

785
00:40:30,994 --> 00:40:34,234
Speaker 3: she transformed that. Amelia, what did you think I think.

786
00:40:34,194 --> 00:40:38,194
Speaker 1: Every now and then you see someone wearing something that

787
00:40:38,594 --> 00:40:41,953
Speaker 1: transfixes you because it looks so different from everyone and

788
00:40:41,994 --> 00:40:44,873
Speaker 1: everything else, and it's a sign that the culture is

789
00:40:44,914 --> 00:40:48,794
Speaker 1: shifting and that fashion is shifting. I remember feeling that

790
00:40:48,834 --> 00:40:51,993
Speaker 1: way the first time I saw a skinny leg jean

791
00:40:52,474 --> 00:40:56,073
Speaker 1: out in the wild, and I remember it when again

792
00:40:56,114 --> 00:40:58,194
Speaker 1: the jeans got wide again, I was like, wait, but

793
00:40:58,354 --> 00:41:00,913
Speaker 1: that jean's wide, and you just have to stare at

794
00:41:00,954 --> 00:41:03,514
Speaker 1: it until it starts to make sense for you visually.

795
00:41:04,234 --> 00:41:07,714
Speaker 1: And that's how I felt about this. I wondered, maybe

796
00:41:07,754 --> 00:41:12,074
Speaker 1: this means that we're moving towards a braless future, because

797
00:41:13,274 --> 00:41:16,714
Speaker 1: she looked great. I think that's pretty much indisputable. But

798
00:41:16,954 --> 00:41:22,034
Speaker 1: b bras have such an interesting charged political history in

799
00:41:22,074 --> 00:41:25,154
Speaker 1: the sense that they used to be coded as something

800
00:41:25,674 --> 00:41:29,074
Speaker 1: that feminists wanted to burn, and there was this idea

801
00:41:29,314 --> 00:41:32,114
Speaker 1: of feminists burning bras as a sign of women's liberation.

802
00:41:32,274 --> 00:41:35,434
Speaker 1: They were a sign of oppression. But then I felt

803
00:41:35,474 --> 00:41:38,594
Speaker 1: like over the ensuing years since the sixties when that happened,

804
00:41:39,234 --> 00:41:41,913
Speaker 1: women came to accept that bras were a thing that

805
00:41:42,034 --> 00:41:45,474
Speaker 1: made your life more comfortable, particularly if you are well endowed,

806
00:41:45,834 --> 00:41:49,873
Speaker 1: shall we say, bras making you feel more comfortable. It's

807
00:41:49,914 --> 00:41:53,034
Speaker 1: actually kind of uncomfortable sometimes when you have large breasts

808
00:41:53,114 --> 00:41:55,914
Speaker 1: to not wear a bra. But it got me thinking

809
00:41:55,914 --> 00:41:58,754
Speaker 1: about maybe that's a tool of the patriarchy. What are

810
00:41:58,794 --> 00:42:01,194
Speaker 1: we wearing bras for? Who are we wearing bras for?

811
00:42:01,314 --> 00:42:03,634
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is that Sidney Sweeney was in

812
00:42:03,674 --> 00:42:08,714
Speaker 1: the news earlier this year for her controversial American Eagle ads,

813
00:42:08,874 --> 00:42:11,834
Speaker 1: which were embraced by the right. But the interesting thing

814
00:42:11,954 --> 00:42:15,714
Speaker 1: is the right hates this look on her, and Megan Kelly,

815
00:42:15,794 --> 00:42:18,474
Speaker 1: the x Fox News host, made a u turn on

816
00:42:18,554 --> 00:42:20,674
Speaker 1: her support for Sidney Sweeney. She was all about her

817
00:42:20,674 --> 00:42:22,993
Speaker 1: when she was in the American Eagle ads, but then

818
00:42:23,114 --> 00:42:25,874
Speaker 1: over the weekend she said she disapproved of the dress

819
00:42:25,914 --> 00:42:28,674
Speaker 1: because it was see through and that it took away

820
00:42:28,714 --> 00:42:31,593
Speaker 1: the thing that is sexiest, which is mystery in a woman.

821
00:42:32,194 --> 00:42:34,794
Speaker 1: So now I'm very confused. What should I be doing

822
00:42:34,834 --> 00:42:38,194
Speaker 1: bras wise politically? Holly tell me, I think.

823
00:42:38,074 --> 00:42:40,993
Speaker 2: Sidney Sweeney is speaking with her breasts. I think that's

824
00:42:40,994 --> 00:42:44,834
Speaker 2: what she's doing, right, because we just we're talking about

825
00:42:44,834 --> 00:42:47,433
Speaker 2: how everything's political. You can't really escape it. Having a

826
00:42:47,434 --> 00:42:50,913
Speaker 2: boyfriend is political, you know, And Sidney Sweeney, as you've

827
00:42:50,954 --> 00:42:56,714
Speaker 2: expressed has been definitely pigeonholed as being maga, and then

828
00:42:56,874 --> 00:42:59,913
Speaker 2: she's come out nearly naked and really pissed off a

829
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:03,033
Speaker 2: large part of Maga, which is the Christian right by

830
00:43:03,114 --> 00:43:06,114
Speaker 2: being too sexy, and you know she's not a married

831
00:43:06,154 --> 00:43:08,994
Speaker 2: woman and what business so she got being sexy. And

832
00:43:09,114 --> 00:43:11,473
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like we live in a world

833
00:43:11,474 --> 00:43:14,674
Speaker 2: where celebrities can't say anything interesting anymore because we live

834
00:43:14,674 --> 00:43:17,834
Speaker 2: in such a divided culture where if you want people

835
00:43:17,874 --> 00:43:20,594
Speaker 2: to go and see your movies, you need to appeal

836
00:43:20,634 --> 00:43:23,594
Speaker 2: to everybody, otherwise you cut off half the people. They're like,

837
00:43:23,634 --> 00:43:25,674
Speaker 2: I'm not going to see Sydney Sweeney and anything. She's

838
00:43:25,674 --> 00:43:27,873
Speaker 2: a trumpist, and that would mean I was supporting them.

839
00:43:28,634 --> 00:43:32,354
Speaker 2: She never says that, but she can speak with her boobs,

840
00:43:32,474 --> 00:43:36,274
Speaker 2: particularly when you've got boobs as skilled as highly skilled.

841
00:43:36,714 --> 00:43:39,994
Speaker 3: They're great communicators, as are that.

842
00:43:40,194 --> 00:43:43,714
Speaker 2: I feel like she's sort of saying, don't fence me in,

843
00:43:43,834 --> 00:43:46,954
Speaker 2: don't fence my boobs in with a bra, and don't

844
00:43:47,074 --> 00:43:50,154
Speaker 2: fence me in as the conservative pin up that you've

845
00:43:50,194 --> 00:43:52,634
Speaker 2: got me pegged as is their legs in that theory?

846
00:43:52,794 --> 00:43:54,593
Speaker 2: Is there boobs in that theory? Yeah?

847
00:43:54,754 --> 00:43:56,754
Speaker 3: I think You're right, because she would have known that

848
00:43:56,794 --> 00:44:00,354
Speaker 3: this would piss off the Christian right, the transparency.

849
00:44:00,354 --> 00:44:02,434
Speaker 1: But they liked the big breasts before.

850
00:44:02,554 --> 00:44:03,074
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you.

851
00:44:03,114 --> 00:44:04,474
Speaker 1: Can't show your nips.

852
00:44:04,754 --> 00:44:06,754
Speaker 2: That's the most basic problem here.

853
00:44:07,114 --> 00:44:09,953
Speaker 1: The nipples is the problem problem, the lack of bra.

854
00:44:10,074 --> 00:44:12,274
Speaker 1: It's the nipples. Because let's just take a step back.

855
00:44:12,394 --> 00:44:15,513
Speaker 1: It is largely an audio medium. What I want to

856
00:44:15,594 --> 00:44:20,154
Speaker 1: describe briefly is why this looks very revolutionary for people

857
00:44:20,154 --> 00:44:23,714
Speaker 1: who haven't seen it. The breasts are pointing in different

858
00:44:23,794 --> 00:44:27,873
Speaker 1: directions as natural breasts are wont to do. They are

859
00:44:27,954 --> 00:44:31,274
Speaker 1: not up at her neck. They are at a juncture

860
00:44:31,354 --> 00:44:34,754
Speaker 1: that looks unusual to our eyes now because we are

861
00:44:34,874 --> 00:44:40,274
Speaker 1: so used to seeing celebrities with surgically enhanced breasts that

862
00:44:40,474 --> 00:44:44,394
Speaker 1: it looks lower than you're expecting to see breasts. Exactly.

863
00:44:44,554 --> 00:44:46,754
Speaker 2: It's a flex, right, It's a flex to be like,

864
00:44:46,834 --> 00:44:51,154
Speaker 2: look at my glorious natural breasts defying your rigid.

865
00:44:50,874 --> 00:44:53,473
Speaker 3: Rules, and this is how they'd sit if you saw

866
00:44:53,514 --> 00:44:55,834
Speaker 3: me naked, which is very very sexy.

867
00:44:56,394 --> 00:44:57,714
Speaker 1: I agree with you.

868
00:44:57,754 --> 00:44:59,834
Speaker 3: I think that she knew it would piss them off.

869
00:44:59,874 --> 00:45:01,473
Speaker 3: Do I think that we're going to move into a

870
00:45:01,514 --> 00:45:02,194
Speaker 3: post bra?

871
00:45:02,834 --> 00:45:07,474
Speaker 1: Yeah? Are you tempted cure I carrying twins, I moment

872
00:45:07,554 --> 00:45:08,473
Speaker 1: to discard the bra.

873
00:45:08,754 --> 00:45:09,594
Speaker 2: I you know what?

874
00:45:09,714 --> 00:45:12,993
Speaker 3: I wonder if I will discard the bra while they

875
00:45:13,034 --> 00:45:16,873
Speaker 3: are full, and maybe they are sitting at a nighter, well,

876
00:45:16,914 --> 00:45:20,474
Speaker 3: what I would consider maybe a more acceptable position. But

877
00:45:20,554 --> 00:45:23,354
Speaker 3: once I can tuck them into my underpants, I don't

878
00:45:23,354 --> 00:45:24,594
Speaker 3: know if the culture is ready for that.

879
00:45:26,794 --> 00:45:28,513
Speaker 1: What would Megan Kelly say?

880
00:45:29,154 --> 00:45:32,474
Speaker 2: You would not be happy, but like, do you remember

881
00:45:32,594 --> 00:45:34,154
Speaker 2: it's going to escape me who it is. But I

882
00:45:34,154 --> 00:45:37,714
Speaker 2: bet Amelia will remember a celebrity of an older vintage,

883
00:45:37,714 --> 00:45:39,913
Speaker 2: a gen X celebrity was not wearing a bra on

884
00:45:39,954 --> 00:45:41,714
Speaker 2: a red carpet a while ago with a dress, and

885
00:45:41,754 --> 00:45:45,154
Speaker 2: everybody was like, eh, gross, disgusting because it was lower

886
00:45:45,594 --> 00:45:49,754
Speaker 2: than supposed to be. So, while we're busy objectifying Sidney Sweeny,

887
00:45:49,754 --> 00:45:53,433
Speaker 2: which obviously we are, like, I feel like, although she's

888
00:45:53,474 --> 00:45:56,554
Speaker 2: being rebellious in this look, you can be rebellious in

889
00:45:56,594 --> 00:45:59,714
Speaker 2: this look if you are young and conforming to all

890
00:45:59,754 --> 00:46:00,754
Speaker 2: those stereotypes.

891
00:46:00,834 --> 00:46:01,033
Speaker 4: Right.

892
00:46:01,434 --> 00:46:05,393
Speaker 2: Whereas if somebody who is a little less perfect in

893
00:46:05,474 --> 00:46:10,194
Speaker 2: every way according to a very ideal were to throw

894
00:46:10,274 --> 00:46:14,194
Speaker 2: the bra away, they would probably still get called unkempt

895
00:46:14,274 --> 00:46:16,393
Speaker 2: and slovely in a way that is never going to

896
00:46:16,434 --> 00:46:17,234
Speaker 2: happen to Sweeney.

897
00:46:17,634 --> 00:46:20,314
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's right. I think I want to

898
00:46:20,394 --> 00:46:23,354
Speaker 1: ultimately say, though I'm happy that she did this, I'm

899
00:46:23,354 --> 00:46:25,674
Speaker 1: happy that she didn't wear the bra. I went for

900
00:46:26,074 --> 00:46:29,634
Speaker 1: my annual mammogram last week and I was thinking about

901
00:46:29,674 --> 00:46:35,194
Speaker 1: all of the anxiety and neuroses and concerns that we

902
00:46:35,274 --> 00:46:38,034
Speaker 1: put on our breasts, and it's sometimes just nice to

903
00:46:38,114 --> 00:46:42,594
Speaker 1: see them hanging out and being free. Yeah, yeah, I agree, Sydney.

904
00:46:42,794 --> 00:46:46,154
Speaker 2: Out louders a massive thank you for while listening to

905
00:46:46,154 --> 00:46:47,994
Speaker 2: today's show. This is one you're going to want to

906
00:46:48,034 --> 00:46:50,634
Speaker 2: watch on YouTube because many of us while we're talking

907
00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:51,634
Speaker 2: about breast have been grabbing.

908
00:46:52,274 --> 00:46:55,634
Speaker 1: I'm a still wearing my breast cancer awareness T shirt today.

909
00:46:56,034 --> 00:46:58,594
Speaker 1: Oh oh, I love it.

910
00:46:58,034 --> 00:47:01,234
Speaker 2: It's like you knew. A massive thank you, of course

911
00:47:01,274 --> 00:47:03,634
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting the show together, and

912
00:47:03,674 --> 00:47:15,474
Speaker 2: we're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Bye hie, Mamma.

913
00:47:15,514 --> 00:47:18,433
Speaker 2: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

914
00:47:18,434 --> 00:47:21,754
Speaker 2: we've recorded this podcast, the Gadigal people of the Eora

915
00:47:21,834 --> 00:47:24,994
Speaker 2: Nation and on the Gerringer land of the wonder Wondian people.

916
00:47:25,434 --> 00:47:27,914
Speaker 2: We pay our respects to their elders past and present,

917
00:47:28,234 --> 00:47:31,714
Speaker 2: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait

918
00:47:31,754 --> 00:47:32,714
Speaker 2: Islander cultures.