1 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: Mamma may I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: and waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 3: I am a single daughter raising two parents, okay, and 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 3: it is so tough raising parents in this generation because 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 3: it's like, I understand that you're in your fifties, but 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 3: you're not grown. Okay. I need to know you're wherebelt. 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 3: I need to know where you're. 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: At, poor mother, miya. I'm your host, Ashannie Dante. Welcome 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: to But Are You Happy? The podcast that asks the 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: questions you avoiding therapy, and. 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Anastagia Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: and mental health. 14 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 4: Are you in that stage of life. 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: Where it's starting to feel like you are the parent 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: to your parents? 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 4: Maybe it's always been that way? 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? Is that normal? 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 4: Good question? 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: Today we're going to unpack parentification and how to recover 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 2: when your parents have made you the mediator between them 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: or put you in charge holding onto their emotional baggage. 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: I know you're about to drop some gems, so let's 24 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: get into it, Okay, Anathasia, I want to start this 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: from the beginning. Is there even a clinical definition for 26 00:01:24,839 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: being a parent for your parents. 27 00:01:27,399 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: So what we're talking about here is parentification. So this 28 00:01:31,479 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: is the word I'll be referring back to throughout the podcast. 29 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: So parentification is essentially when a child is required to 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: take on the roles and responsibilities that we would typically 31 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 2: expect a parent to do. So it's the child essentially 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 2: being the parent for the parent. 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm actually really excited about this topic because i don't 34 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,279 Speaker 1: know much about this term. I'm only learning about it 35 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:55,999 Speaker 1: now when we were preparing for this. 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's more common than you'd think. So there's 37 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: a couple of different ways that the parentification can show up, 38 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: so it can be practical parentification. So this is when 39 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 2: a child or a teenager is practically required to contribute 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: to the family and the household in ways that are 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: beyond what we would expect to be age appropriate for 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: a kid. Right, So this might be that from a 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: really young age, maybe like twelve thirteen, the child needs 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: to get a job and they need to contribute financially 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: to bills and things like that, or they have to 46 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: take on quite a significant role looking after the younger siblings, 47 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: or they take a significant role in doing household chores, 48 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: and things like that. So there's that practical parentification that 49 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: can exist. 50 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's one type. 51 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's the practical and then there's the emotional. 52 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: So this presents very differently. This is where the child 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: is expected to emotionally support the parents, again in ways 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: that are beyond what we would expect for a kid 55 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: of that age. So this might be, for example, you know, 56 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: mum's going through a hard time, Mums really struggling with 57 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: her mental health, and the child has this responsibility placed 58 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: upon it to really be that that emotional support for her, 59 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 2: to listen to her struggles, to validate her, to be 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: that ear who kind of sits and nods and hears 61 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: her out but also sort of provides reassurance and comfort. 62 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: So it's where the child takes on that role of 63 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: being emotionally the parent to the parent. 64 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: It's a really hard one because as you're talking through it, 65 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: my curiosity leans more into what's the difference between you're 66 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: wanting to teach your child responsibility versus actually, let my 67 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: child just be a child? Yes? 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: Yes, So the difference here is how much we rely 69 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: on the child for those things, right, So that's difference 70 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: between going, hey, Look, you're a teenager now, it might 71 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: be good for you to get a job, earn some money, 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: do some more chores around the house. Maybe we'll give 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: you some pocket money, right, And that's with the goal 74 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: of building skills for that young person versus relying on them. 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: We need you to work because you need to contribute 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: to the bills in this house, or we need you 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: to do more chores because if you don't do them, 78 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: they don't get done in this house. 79 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 4: Right, So it's the difference is the reliance on them. 80 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: So what are the consequences of parentification? 81 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 4: So there can be a lot of consequences, right. 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: So it might be that if you've been a child 83 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: who's been parentified, you might grow up suppressing your needs, 84 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: right because in the family home you didn't necessarily have 85 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: the space to be a kid or the space to 86 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: express your emotional needs and really have someone sit down 87 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: with you and listen to those. So you might learn 88 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: my needs are not as important as others, so I'm 89 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: going to push them to the side and focus on 90 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: other people. So we get this kind of suppression in adulthood. 91 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: So that could be one kind of outcome or consequence 92 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: of parentification. It might also be that someone ends up 93 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: really stressed. Right, it's a lot of a burden to 94 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: carry all these things practically and emotionally that we feel 95 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 2: like we need to do for other people to feel 96 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: like we're holding that responsibility. And if we know about 97 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: how the brain and the body work, the nervous system, 98 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: if it's activated a lot at a young age, if 99 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: a child is in a high state of stress when 100 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: they're young, that's going to carry through in so many 101 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: ways into adulthood. 102 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 4: One of the other things we. 103 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: Might find is that parentification for a kid interferes with 104 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: their development. What I mean by this is that the 105 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: kid never gets the opportunity to be a kid, right. 106 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: They don't get the opportunity to be a teenager and 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: do the silly things that teenagers do, or go out 108 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: to the parties or you know, when they're in their 109 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: twenties kind of travel and have fun. 110 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 4: Right, they don't get the. 111 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 2: Opportunities to progress through childhood, teenage, and early adult years 112 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: in the way that we would expect, and so they 113 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: miss out on some of these key experiences, but key 114 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: learnings that come from those experiences. They become an adult 115 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: way too fast. And what we can sometimes find is 116 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: that later in life there's resentment for that, or there 117 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: can be that sense of I never did those things 118 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: as a kid or as a teenager, and I want 119 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: to go back and do them now. 120 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a hard place to be too, when 121 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: you're in that space of regret. 122 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 123 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. So with parentification, why does it happen. 124 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: So many reasons. 125 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: Ultimately, the parents who are caring for that child either 126 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: don't have the capacity or they're unable to in some 127 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: way be the parents that they need to be themselves. 128 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: They don't have the skills, they don't have the knowledge, 129 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: They maybe don't realize the best way to kind of 130 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 2: parent their child. 131 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: So we see this. 132 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: A lot in families where there is a parent or 133 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: both parents who have mental health concerns and they're struggling 134 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: in ways. We see this in families where there's addiction. 135 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: So I see this a lot. I work with a 136 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: lot of clients who have addictions, and the children end 137 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: up being quite parentified. They have to take on a 138 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: lot of the roles and responsibilities. They have to get 139 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: themselves to school, they have to pack their lunches. From 140 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: a very young It might be the case where there's 141 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: a lot of sort of family turmoil or divorce that again, 142 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: children are required to take on that role of being 143 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: the listening ear and the comforter to the parents who 144 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: are going through maybe a messy separation. There can be 145 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: a lot of different reasons why it can occur, but 146 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: rarely is it an intentional thing. It's usually because there's 147 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: some sort of chaos, distress, lack of ability, lack of 148 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: capacity amongst the parents. 149 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: And it's really interesting too because it gets me reflecting 150 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: just more specifically from a South Asian lens, right, because 151 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: I think there's this expectation that I've felt in a 152 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: lot of my peers where it's like it's expected, like 153 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: it's a cultural thing as well. And I guess it's 154 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: a bit of an Ikey line, right, because in our 155 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: culture it's all around you know, respecting the people that 156 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: have walked before you. But then how do you maintain 157 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: that sense of independence? So it is it is tricky 158 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: to navigate. 159 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: Yes, it's that difference between you need to learn how 160 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: to be responsible, you need to pack your own lunches 161 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: for school, But if you didn't pack your lunch, I'm 162 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: assuming mum or dad would sneak something into your bag 163 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: or be like, Okay, it was one day you learn 164 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: your lesson, but let's make sure you pack them from 165 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: now on, as opposed to if that young kid doesn't 166 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: pack their lunch, they're not eating that week. 167 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very different. So something I am curious about 168 00:08:33,199 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: is the second wave of parentification because the reality is, 169 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, our parents are going to get older when naturally, 170 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: as their children, going to fall into a caregive a role. 171 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: How does one navigate that, especially if they have already 172 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: been parentified in the past. 173 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, becoming the parent for your parents when they age. 174 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 4: And they get old, it's a really tough one. 175 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: And I think it really does require people to reflect 176 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: on the relationship they've had with their parents throughout their 177 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: life and how they perhaps want to care for them 178 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 2: in those. 179 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 4: Later stages of life as well. 180 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: It really is a balancing act between what do I 181 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: need at this point in my life? You know, what 182 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: are my priorities and responsibilities, and how can I also 183 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: be there for my parents in some way? At times 184 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: it might mean setting certain boundaries. We can't do everything 185 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: for them at all times, But it's about finding that 186 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: balance for yourself that feels right. 187 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: It's funny that you said balance because I feel like 188 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: that's a common theme that we find in a lot 189 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: of out episodes, because it really is at the end 190 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah. Absolutely, So something I have been 191 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: hearing more and more about, which I'm interested to get 192 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: your take on, is parental alienation. What is it? Just 193 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: in case for listeners that are tunity and they have 194 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: no idea what that is. 195 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we talk about parental alienation, we're talking 196 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: about a parent who essentially in some way tries to 197 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: turn the child against the other parent. So we see 198 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 2: this in families where there is either high conflict, there 199 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: is potential separation and divorce, or again, if we have 200 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: a parent maybe who is struggling with their mental health, 201 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: be things like trying to control the child's communication with 202 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: the other parent, saying really negative things about them, trying 203 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: to manipulate their perspective of the other parent, but in 204 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: some ways trying to alienate them or damage the bonds 205 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: that they have with the other parents. Now, for the 206 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: child or the teenager on the receiving end of that, 207 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: that can be really confusing because we are taught this 208 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: message that our parents are good people, they look after us, 209 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: they're there for us. We can go to them with 210 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: anything and everything. But if we're suddenly getting a different message, 211 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: which is your other parents is not a good person. 212 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: Here's all the bad things they do, all the bad 213 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: things they've done, and you shouldn't talk to them, that's 214 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: very destabilizing for a kid. 215 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Have you seen that dynamic come up in the clinic. 216 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And unfortunately when we do see sometimes kind 217 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 2: of messy divorces and separations play out, children can sadly 218 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: get caught up in that. So we really have to 219 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 2: kind of work with parents to be like, you know what, 220 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 2: you might have these negative feelings towards your ex partner, 221 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: but we really need to make sure that we don't 222 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: bring those into the child's relationship with a parent. 223 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: After the break, Doctor Anastasia is going to teach us 224 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: how we can start parenting our parents and start setting 225 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: healthier boundaries. How do we repair ourselves emotionally from something 226 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: like parentification. 227 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: We have to be the parent to our own inner child. 228 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: We reparent ourselves right. So we've all got that little Anastasia, 229 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: that little Ashani inside of us. 230 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 4: Somewhere we think we know them. But for some of us. 231 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: For some of our listeners, those little versions of themselves 232 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: haven't always felt that love and received that love, and 233 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 2: so we can go through this process of what we 234 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 2: call reparenting ourselves. So this is essentially giving that inner 235 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: child within us the love, the care, the support, the validation, 236 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: the encouragement that perhaps they never got as a child. 237 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. Yes, so what does that actually look like? 238 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? So essentially it's being able to comfort ourselves, love ourselves, 239 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: give ourselves the opportunity to meet our own core emotional needs. Now, 240 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: when I talk about core emotional needs, I'm talking about 241 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: five core needs that we all have as children, as teenagers, 242 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: as adults, as older adults. We have these five core 243 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: emotional needs. So I'll go through them. First of all, 244 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: we all have the need for secure attachment. I need 245 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: to feel like I am securely bonded with other people, 246 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: that I can have closeness with them and distance with 247 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: them and that attachment doesn't break. 248 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 4: Okay, So we need secure attachment. 249 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: We all need to feel like we have the opportunity 250 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: for emotional expression and validation. I need to feel like 251 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: I can tell the people in my life what I'm 252 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: feeling what I'm thinking, how I'm going, and that they 253 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: will hear that and validated. 254 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 4: That's the second one. 255 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: Third one, we all have the need for competence, for 256 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: a sense of autonomy in the world, for a sense 257 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: of identity. I need to feel like I know who 258 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: I am and that I feel confident in myself that 259 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: I can get through life. Fourth one is we all 260 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: have the need for limit setting. We need to be 261 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: able to set limits on ourselves. When I go out 262 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: into the lunch room, I need to be able to 263 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: not eat the whole cake. I need to just be 264 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: able to eat one slice of cake. Right, sounds relatable, 265 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: the ability to set limits on ourselves. And then lastly, 266 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: we all have the need for fun and play and spontaneity. 267 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: Right when I pick to this one, I imagine kind 268 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: of kids running through the park, giggling, blowing bubbles. That 269 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: real like free spirited fun that we can lean into. Okay, 270 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: we all have these core emotional needs. Now, what happens 271 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: with parentification is that some of these needs, these emotional 272 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: needs don't get met. So to go through the process 273 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: of reparenting, we need to be able to identify what 274 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: didn't I get as a kid. Well, what didn't I 275 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: get enough of as a kid? And how can I 276 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: give that to myself? So I'm going to take you 277 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: through a little bit of a process as to how 278 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: we can actually do this. 279 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: We love a good process guide us. 280 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: Okay, So first of all, get a picture in your 281 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: mind of that younger version of yourself. If I imagine 282 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: say little Anastasia, maybe kind of six years old, eight 283 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: years old, ten years old, whatever age feels right, Imagine 284 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: that younger version of yourself and ask yourself the question, 285 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: what did little me not get? What was little meek craving? 286 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: What did little me really want? Did I really want 287 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: to be seen? Did I really want to be praised? 288 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 2: Did I really want to be hugged and comforted? Did 289 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: I really want rest? Did I really want comfid and support? 290 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: What did little me need? 291 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: Now? 292 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: If you can picture that younger version of you in 293 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: your mind, close your eyes, see her, see him, see 294 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: that little version of you, and imagine your adult self, 295 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: you as you are right now, giving your younger self 296 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: what they need. Give them that hug, give them the encouragement, 297 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: give them the praise, give them the time to sit 298 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: with them and listen to them. Put your arm around them, 299 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: tell them they're special, tell them they're worthy, tell them 300 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: they're valuable. Whatever it is that little you needed to hear, 301 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: tell them that. 302 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: I personally love in a child work. But I think 303 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: that the question I have is what happens if people 304 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: can't access it? Because I've definitely had experiences where, you know, 305 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm trying to connect to my little Ashani, she doesn't 306 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: want to talk to me because like, what are you 307 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: doing here? 308 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? 309 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: So, yeah, does it take time? 310 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 4: It takes time. 311 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's about imagining yourself at different ages as well, 312 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: So maybe like thirteen year old US versus five year 313 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: old US will kind of respond quite differently. And if 314 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: it feels really hard to hold that kind of empathy 315 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: and compassion for yourself, pull out some photos from when 316 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: you were young and look at those baby. 317 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 4: Photos, look at those six year old photos. 318 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: Of you, and imagine what little you was feeling the 319 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: good and the bad at that point in time, and 320 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: lean into using those photos as an aid and a 321 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: tool to access those compassionate feelings to. 322 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 4: Your younger self. 323 00:16:59,240 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: I love that. 324 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: And the other thing I recommend for people sometimes is 325 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: if you pull out that photo if you can find 326 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: yourself connecting with that younger version of you, and you 327 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: can tell her all the things she needs to do here, 328 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: write it down in a letter and keep it somewhere, 329 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 2: and even record yourself saying it onto your phone. Sometimes 330 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: it can be a bit hard to listen to yourself back, 331 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: but in those moments when you're then struggling as an adult, 332 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 2: when you're feeling lonely, when you're feeling like your needs 333 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: are not being met, pull out that letter and read 334 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 2: it or listen to the audio recording of it. So again, 335 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: in those adult moments, give yourself the love, the care, 336 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 2: the validation, the appreciation that you need. 337 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: Oh this is so beautiful and I can imagine being 338 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: such a delicate process for people as well. So definitely 339 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: try to add a bit of you know, lights and 340 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: candles make it a really beautiful experience. I'm all about environments, 341 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: so creating that beautiful space for you to step into. 342 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: So is this kind of work actually going to help 343 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: with breaking cycles? So we don't end up parentifying our 344 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: future children if you know, people choose to have children. 345 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, like I think a lot of parents 346 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily have even known what the term parentification was right, 347 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have had the knowledge that this is not 348 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: necessarily the right way to or the best way to 349 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: raise a child or to meet their emotional needs. Parenting 350 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: has gone through lots of different phases throughout the years 351 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: as to what the best way or the right way 352 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: to parent is, and a lot of the time parents 353 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: may have been thinking, you know, I'm doing the right 354 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: thing by my child, teaching them to be responsible and 355 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: independent and all that, but maybe it's gone too far. 356 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: So absolutely, being able to do this in a work 357 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: and reparent ourselves does break the cycle, and it gives 358 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: us the insight and education as to how we might 359 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: want to then parent our children as well. 360 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: After the shortbreak, we hear from a woman whose mom 361 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: keeps asking her for money. Stay with us, Babby. 362 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: Hearby, Barby, I'm proving a serious crisis. 363 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: Having a crisis. 364 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer 365 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners. 366 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: This dilemma comes from deeper. 367 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 5: I'm studying at UNI, juggling part time work just to 368 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 5: cover my rent and food, but my mom constantly asked 369 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 5: me for money, often for her own bills, sometimes just 370 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 5: because she's short. 371 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 4: I feel guilty saying no, But it's. 372 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 5: Getting harder to manage my own life. I'm trying to 373 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 5: figure out adulthood, build a future, and enjoy some freedom, 374 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 5: but I always feel pulled back. I don't want to 375 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 5: resent her, but I'm exhausted, and I don't have a 376 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 5: lot of money to use on my own life, let 377 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 5: alone hers. How do I set boundaries without feeling like 378 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 5: a terrible daughter. I just want space to grow without 379 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 5: carrying the weight of her world too. 380 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: Oh that's so hard. 381 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 4: This is a tough one. I feel for you deeper. 382 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: It's very hard to find that balance between wanting to 383 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: do the right thing or the best thing by your family, 384 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 2: by your parents, but also wanting to prioritize your own 385 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: needs as well. So I would recommend, first of all, 386 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: recognize your limits. We all have limits, whether they be 387 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: emotional limits or whether they're sort of practical resource limits. 388 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: We only have so much money, we only have so 389 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: much time, we only have so much capacity. So start 390 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: off by just really recognizing the limits that you have 391 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: and that you can't be everything to mum. 392 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 4: Reframe that guilt. 393 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: You know, I heard you say you feel like you're 394 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: going to be a terrible daughter, right, we want to 395 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: just sort of reframe that guilt and be like, you're 396 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: not a terrible daughter. 397 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 4: The fact that you're asking us this question and. 398 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: Tuning in and asking for help is one hundred percent 399 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: evidence that you are not a bad daughter, and you 400 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: are actually trying really hard to figure out how to 401 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: navigate a tricky situation. In these situations, I personally don't 402 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: think it's all just about setting boundaries, right. I know 403 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: we're in a bit of a kind of boundary era 404 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: the moment. Everything's a boundary. Yes, boundaries are important, but 405 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: sometimes just setting about doesn't actually feel satisfying for a person. 406 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: It's about finding the compromise, not just putting the boundary 407 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 2: in place. And so what I might encourage you to 408 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: do is perhaps have a conversation with mum and help 409 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 2: her find other avenues to get her needs met. Are 410 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: their community organizations, Are their services that can help her 411 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: with some of the practical problems and challenges she's facing. 412 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 2: Can she get financial assistance, can she get financial counseling? 413 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: And maybe you can help her navigate these services. So 414 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: you still feel like you're contributing but you're not necessarily 415 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: the one handing over the money, So think about what 416 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: alternative ways you can find to still help Mum without 417 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 2: doing it for her. 418 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: And I really love that you've given Deeper the emotional 419 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: but also really practical advice on how to approach it. 420 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: Good luck Deeper. We are cheering you on and you've 421 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: got this anaseja when you reiterate the main takeaways from 422 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: today's episode. 423 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: First of all, parentification can happen for so many different reasons. 424 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 4: Second, it can be extremely challenging. 425 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: For a young person or a child to take on 426 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: responsibilities for their parents. Third, being parentified as a child 427 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 2: can often mean that the child has some of their 428 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: own emotional needs that go unmet. And last of all, 429 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 2: as an adult, you can take steps to reparent you're 430 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: in a child through writing a letter, using words of 431 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: comfort or visualizations. 432 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are 433 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: a few ways to get in touch with us. Links 434 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: are in the show notes. If you like this episode, 435 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: go back and listen to our Therapy Talk episode from 436 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: last season. 437 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 438 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 439 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: here should always take into account for personal medical history. 440 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: The executive producer of What Are You Happy? 441 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 4: Is Naima Brown. 442 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Harlie Blackman. 443 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 4: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. 444 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: I'm a Shiny Dante and I'm Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The 445 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 2: names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for 446 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought up 447 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more 448 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today. 449 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue 450 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 2: or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support. Tune in 451 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: next week as we break down the many ways ADHD 452 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: can show up, clear up some of the biggest myths, 453 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: and share what to do if you think you might 454 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: need to go and get a diagnosis. 455 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: Mama Mia Studios are starred with furniture from Fenton and Benton. 456 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: Visit Fenton Andfenton dot com dot AU. 457 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to today's but Are 458 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: You Happy? 459 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 4: Episode. 460 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: We're keen to understand how you're looking after your mental 461 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: health these days. There's a survey link in the show notes. 462 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 2: It only takes a few minutes and you'll go in 463 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: the draw to win a one thousand. 464 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 4: Dollar gift voucher. We'd love to hear from you. 465 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.