Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Travis wants to fix it, and he's going, he's like,
Speaker 3: he's grunting because he's going, I really want to help you, Taylor,
Speaker 3: but I don't know what to do. When Taylor's going,
Speaker 3: you don't have to fix it, you just have to
Speaker 3: listen to me, yep, and just be here and hold
Speaker 3: me in this moment. But Travis is like, no, no,
Speaker 3: I know what I'm gonna do. And he gets out
Speaker 3: his phone.
Speaker 1: And she goes to no, Travis, don't Travis.
Speaker 4: And then he goes to his follow account. He goes,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna follow him.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do it.
Speaker 4: Do it and watch me, watch me tailor Travis, and
Speaker 4: he went unfollowed.
Speaker 1: You're more of a TikTok guy.
Speaker 4: Fixed it.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mommama Out Loud. What women are
Speaker 2: actually talking about On Wednesday, the thirtieth of April, I
Speaker 2: am hollyween Wright, I am Maya.
Speaker 4: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: An on Today's show when saying no costs you. Michelle
Speaker 2: Obama has talked about what it took to not to
Speaker 2: not President Trump's inauguration and why it's important to disappoint
Speaker 2: people every day. Can some children read Minds? A hit
Speaker 2: podcast said yes, the truth might be more complicated. And
Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow is eating carbs and it's making international headlines.
Speaker 2: Should famous women just shut up about food? But first,
Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens, We've.
Speaker 3: Got some feedback for Clive Palmer, who is sending me, specifically,
Speaker 3: a series of really annoying text messages.
Speaker 4: Anyone else getting them.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little negged because last election he was
Speaker 2: sending me a lot of texts. This election, I haven't
Speaker 2: heard from him. I'm feeling ghosted.
Speaker 1: Okay, I haven't either. But just when we were setting
Speaker 1: up to record today, our producer mt a text.
Speaker 3: From so I was going to say, I kid you not.
Speaker 3: I was putting together this and I got a text message.
Speaker 3: I checked Trumpet.
Speaker 1: How many Trumpets have you had?
Speaker 4: I've had four?
Speaker 2: And what's he saying to you? Trump? Hey, Jesse, how's
Speaker 2: your day?
Speaker 3: That's exactly what he's saying. He knows not to call me.
Speaker 3: I think the Trumpet has learned that we don't call
Speaker 3: because and I was.
Speaker 1: Picking a Trumpet's calling.
Speaker 3: Well, no, they used to call you like they used
Speaker 3: to do calls anyway, the.
Speaker 1: Trumpet Patriots is the name of his political party, just
Speaker 1: in case anyone's wondering.
Speaker 3: And if you're wondering what his message is, well, the
Speaker 3: first message I got said solve housing, fast trains twenty
Speaker 3: minutes CBD, cheap land with no punctuation.
Speaker 1: And that's just a list of nouns that sounds like
Speaker 1: a house sale.
Speaker 2: Where do I go?
Speaker 1: Why do I have to turn up with cash?
Speaker 4: I was sitting there at a wedding, and I go,
Speaker 4: is he solving housing with the fast trains? Is he
Speaker 4: buying more land in the CBD?
Speaker 1: Like we didn't get to your housing faster on a train?
Speaker 4: Like what are we talking about?
Speaker 2: But did you know?
Speaker 3: I learned this week that these messages are totally above board,
Speaker 3: totally legal, because politicians have a legal exemption from spam.
Speaker 3: That's why they're allowed to send unsolicited texts. They're allowed
Speaker 3: to call you without offering an opt out option. They
Speaker 3: are also exempt from privacy laws, so they can collect, store,
Speaker 3: and use your personal data without the same restrictions that
Speaker 3: apply to any businesses. So Trumpet can literally call me
Speaker 3: a hundred times creepy text me and I have to
Speaker 3: copy it, and no laws requiring that these texts be truthful.
Speaker 3: They could text me anything at all. They could say
Speaker 3: the sky is red, the ground is yellow, and your
Speaker 3: name is Clive.
Speaker 2: I know why they're texting because apparently only thirty percent
Speaker 2: of emails ever get opened, but ninety percent of text
Speaker 2: messages do. And that's interesting, right. I don't open all
Speaker 2: my text messages. I'm one of those people who drives
Speaker 2: everyone crazy by having the red sign that says twenty
Speaker 2: million texts because I just look at it and go,
Speaker 2: I don't need to know about that, and I move
Speaker 2: on with my life. But apparently most people are much
Speaker 2: more organized than I am, and they open everything before
Speaker 2: they read it.
Speaker 3: So I reckon that texts are going to go that
Speaker 3: way because we've learned with emails about the spam. I
Speaker 3: no longer answer my phone because I've just been done
Speaker 3: so many times by GET. I do not answer my
Speaker 3: phone as a general rule, and I'm getting that way
Speaker 3: with texts because of things like this.
Speaker 1: A couple of months ago, you might remember that there
Speaker 1: was gossip around whether the Obamas were getting divorced.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Obama was dating Jennifer Aniston, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there were two specific reasons for these rumors.
Speaker 3: Of those rumors because I feel like Mayor Friedman absolutely.
Speaker 1: For Jennifer Aniston ones, but the rumors, I don't want
Speaker 1: them to split up. I want starting that rumor. The
Speaker 1: reasons that people were talking about it is because firstly,
Speaker 1: Michelle didn't attend Jimmy Carter's funeral, and then a few
Speaker 1: weeks later she didn't attend Donald Trump's inauguration. So what
Speaker 1: other explanation could there be for her not showing up
Speaker 1: as a former First Lady at these very official ceremonial events.
Speaker 1: All the other former first ladies did except for Michelle.
Speaker 1: So was it splits field? That's what everybody was saying. Well,
Speaker 1: now we know that Michelle Obama's marriage wasn't in trouble,
Speaker 1: or it might have been in trouble, might still be
Speaker 1: in trouble, but that's not why she didn't turn up.
Speaker 1: She just didn't want to go. Here's what she said
Speaker 1: in a podcast interview this week.
Speaker 5: My decision to skip the inauguration. You know what people
Speaker 5: don't realize or my decision to make choices at the
Speaker 5: beginning of this year that suited me were met with
Speaker 5: such ridicule and criticism, like people couldn't believe that I
Speaker 5: was saying no for any other reason that they had
Speaker 5: to assume that my marriage was falling.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 5: You know, It's like, while I'm here really trying to
Speaker 5: own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that
Speaker 5: was right for me, and it took everything in my
Speaker 5: power to not do the thing that was right or
Speaker 5: that was perceived as right, but do the thing that
Speaker 5: was right for me. That was a hard thing for
Speaker 5: me to do. I had to basically trick myself out
Speaker 5: of it. And it started with not having anything to wear.
Speaker 5: I mean, I had affirmatively because I'm always prepared for
Speaker 5: in a funeral any I walk around with the right dress.
Speaker 5: I travel with clothes just in case something pops off.
Speaker 5: So I was like, if I'm not going to do
Speaker 5: this thing, I gotta tell my team I don't even
Speaker 5: want to have a dress ready. It's so easy to
Speaker 5: just say, let me do the right thing, but then
Speaker 5: you become a shark absorber. Yeah, and that's what women
Speaker 5: are as shark absorbers.
Speaker 1: The idea of being a shock absorber really hit now.
Speaker 1: For more than eight years, Michelle Obama had to be
Speaker 1: a shock absorber because as the first black first Lady,
Speaker 1: she didn't want to hand any ammunition to people who
Speaker 1: believe black people didn't belong in the White House. And
Speaker 1: she sacrificed so much, not just for the eight years
Speaker 1: when Obama was president, but in the sort of four
Speaker 1: years or more before that when he was running. She
Speaker 1: held her tongue, she silenced her opinions, she straightened her hair,
Speaker 1: she squished her personal style, she didn't show her arms.
Speaker 1: She did all the right things, all the things that
Speaker 1: were expected of her.
Speaker 3: Can you explain what a shock absorber is? How would
Speaker 3: you describe it when she says you were.
Speaker 2: A shock So a shock absorber in the you know,
Speaker 2: technical description of something is something that stands in between
Speaker 2: two hard forces, so you know, like a piece of
Speaker 2: rubber or something that stops them from banging together in
Speaker 2: an angry aggressive way. So it's the thing that absorbs
Speaker 2: all the pressure. So the shock absorber is getting hammered
Speaker 2: to stop the other two things basically igniting.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I sometimes say? There must be
Speaker 1: a time of life where you just get like I'm
Speaker 1: jack of this. I started saying a few years ago
Speaker 1: to my husband, I just feel like human grout. I
Speaker 1: feel like grout.
Speaker 2: I feel like.
Speaker 1: Everyone else is the tile, the people I work with,
Speaker 1: my children, my parents, my husband, and I'm just the grout.
Speaker 1: I just fit in. I'm just there so that the
Speaker 1: tiles don't bang together, so that everybody's life is stable
Speaker 1: and calm. And what about me? When can I be
Speaker 1: a tile?
Speaker 3: So there was a an article in the New York Times,
Speaker 3: when do I get to be a tired exactly?
Speaker 1: And now Michelle's in her tile era.
Speaker 4: She's a tile on her own.
Speaker 3: But there was an article in the New York Times
Speaker 3: during the pandemic about how women were the shock absorbers
Speaker 3: because they were the ones that quit their jobs when
Speaker 3: they needed to be quick like. So in a family context,
Speaker 3: it's often said that, I mean, even with little children,
Speaker 3: when a problem is seen, it's like, okay, me sacrificing
Speaker 3: will cause the least conflict in this situation, which women
Speaker 3: are programmed to do because there's something socialized into us
Speaker 3: which is to keep the peace and to sacrifice.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's lubricant.
Speaker 2: And also I think often when a man is behaving
Speaker 2: really badly. Think about sort of the political wives who
Speaker 2: have to stand next to their spouse is when they've
Speaker 2: done something unforgivable and do the smiling and the nodding
Speaker 2: and we're all so happy. Like that's classic shock absorbent behavior, right.
Speaker 2: The thing I loved about all the detail in what
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama gave us is that you know, at the time,
Speaker 2: when she didn't go, we all thought that the marriage
Speaker 2: room as were bullshit. Really, we all knew that she
Speaker 2: was really just going, I just can't like let them, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's it. But what I loved about that is her
Speaker 2: describing how difficult it was. It wasn't just her sitting
Speaker 2: at home putting a feet up and going, see, yah,
Speaker 2: I hope you suit still fits. To Barack as he
Speaker 2: walked out of the house, it was a whole, very
Speaker 2: difficult thing because even for him, if you're saying no,
Speaker 2: and you know you're going to disappoint people, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to that thing, even though everyone thinks I should go.
Speaker 2: There's a cost to other people. So Barack Obama also
Speaker 2: had to weather all the commentary about his marriage. He
Speaker 2: had to go and stand there on his own. We
Speaker 2: all remember the video of him ready to walk out
Speaker 2: of the inauguration and they're saying, are you going to
Speaker 2: behave and he's like no, but like he did not
Speaker 2: have Michelle have his shock absorble with him, right, so
Speaker 2: you know that your decision to do what's right for you,
Speaker 2: Michelle sounds like nearly every midlife woman I know who's
Speaker 2: in therapy who's like just going, I'm finally learning how
Speaker 2: not to be the grout or the shock absilber. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm doing it for me and it's hard. And
Speaker 2: Barack was probably going it would just shut everyone up
Speaker 2: if you turn up, and she was like, no, I can't,
Speaker 2: but it costs something, and nose sometimes do cost things,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was reading something recently. I can't remember
Speaker 3: who the author was, but it was about how when
Speaker 3: you achieve any level of success, whether it's a promotionate work,
Speaker 3: or you know, you're Michelle Obama, the one inevitability that
Speaker 3: comes with that is that you're going to let people down.
Speaker 4: You're going to disappoint people.
Speaker 3: This writer was saying you should practice it like every day,
Speaker 3: go I am going to disappoint one person and choose
Speaker 3: who the person is.
Speaker 2: So hard tell me more about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So she says, you've got to choose who the
Speaker 3: person is, because trying not to disappoint people is a
Speaker 3: prison that you can live in your entire life. If
Speaker 3: you're trying not to disappoint them, you're likely going to
Speaker 3: disappoint yourself or the people closest to you. So it's
Speaker 3: actually a skill. And there are like rules or things
Speaker 3: that you should abide by when it comes to disappointing people.
Speaker 3: So you should express yourself kindly, compassionately, but most importantly firmly,
Speaker 3: Like you've got to be really clear when you're letting
Speaker 3: someone down and you have to follow through. I think
Speaker 3: that the firmly is where I fall flat. I will
Speaker 3: often go to disappoint someone and I will have Luca
Speaker 3: or Maya or someone look at the message and go,
Speaker 3: I don't know what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't think I can do that thing. I'll
Speaker 2: do my best absolutely maybe whatever.
Speaker 4: You're doing it or not, and the people question marks.
Speaker 3: The clinical psychologist doctor Nicole Lapera talks about this, and
Speaker 3: she says that when you try to avoid disappointing someone,
Speaker 3: you're making them small. You're operating under the belief that
Speaker 3: they'll be crushed if you can't make something, and that's
Speaker 3: just not true. You've got to expect more of others.
Speaker 3: Like it's actually like you're being quite paternalistic or undermining
Speaker 3: someone by thinking that Maya can't handle it if I say, hey,
Speaker 3: by the way, I can't go tomorrow night.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think where I find it most difficult is with
Speaker 1: my children and with my parents.
Speaker 4: And don't you think that is parenting.
Speaker 1: I don't mean disappointing like a good I never understand.
Speaker 4: A good parent just disappoints then all the time they do.
Speaker 2: But also the model of good parent we've been given
Speaker 2: is constant shock absorption, constant putting yourself blast, constant swallowing
Speaker 2: your feelings so your kids don't see them, not having
Speaker 2: that argument with your partner so your kid doesn't see it,
Speaker 2: putting up with somebody talking to it in a certain way,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Like that is a lot of parenting,
Speaker 2: and there's and a lot of it is necessary and
Speaker 2: you kind of have to do it. And this is
Speaker 2: why often I think that this era of Arah comes
Speaker 2: a little later when the steaks aren't quite so high
Speaker 2: for your family, because what's interesting about Michelle Obama specifically.
Speaker 2: It's obvious why she didn't want to go to the
Speaker 2: Trump inauguration, but she also didn't want to go to
Speaker 2: the Jimmy carterfuneral because she knew she'd have to sit
Speaker 2: next to him and make nice. And she obviously has
Speaker 2: just that in her integrity, as she would say, she
Speaker 2: cannot do that anymore. It's costing her too much to
Speaker 2: someone who she really believes is ripping at the fabric
Speaker 2: of all that she stands for. She can do that now.
Speaker 2: She couldn't do that when she was First Lady, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
Speaker 1: No, she couldn't. And I think the other level of
Speaker 1: it for her is seeing how Milania Trump behaved that
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump. But as she you know, if you
Speaker 1: read her book Becoming, she talks about having to do
Speaker 1: everything so scrupulously and everybody looking to find fault. When
Speaker 1: Michelle Obama was First Lady and then Milania comes in,
Speaker 1: she wears a jacket saying, I don't care. She doesn't
Speaker 1: live at the White House half the time. She doesn't
Speaker 1: really do anything as First Lady.
Speaker 2: As Christmas Trees of all Time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she just I mean phoning it in is
Speaker 1: an exaggeration of what she does. She doesn't even phone
Speaker 1: it in, and so she just flouts every single convention
Speaker 1: and every single norm. And then you can see Michelle
Speaker 1: Obama going, why am I always the good girl? Like
Speaker 1: he's not running for elected office anymore. I am not
Speaker 1: that role model. And there was all that pressure on
Speaker 1: her to actually run for being the president. Can you imagine,
Speaker 1: like with her and Oprah, you're the only ones that
Speaker 1: can save us from Donald Trump, and everybody wanted her
Speaker 1: to do it, and she said no, and the cost
Speaker 1: of disappointing all of those people. You've got to admire that.
Speaker 3: But what you gain from choosing disappointing others is self respect.
Speaker 3: I think self respect is on the other side of that,
Speaker 3: and I think that you can probably live a lot
Speaker 3: of years being the shock absorber not wanting to disappoint,
Speaker 3: and it erodes.
Speaker 4: Your self respect.
Speaker 1: It also is immunity against resentment, because you know what,
Speaker 1: grout and shock absorbers feel resentful and it might come
Speaker 1: after a decade, two decades, whatever, and then suddenly the
Speaker 1: grout saying to the title, Hey, I'm fucking grout, I'm
Speaker 1: over this, and you might end your marriage or you
Speaker 1: might you know, do something drastic, but the title never
Speaker 1: knew because you've just gone it's okay, it's okay, I'll
Speaker 1: I'll just be here and absorb everything. And then it's like, hmm,
Speaker 1: so maybe we need to you know, say no and
Speaker 1: disappoint people a little bit earlier.
Speaker 4: Constantly must be done, constantly. You do it well, man,
Speaker 4: I'm so good at it.
Speaker 3: In a moment, the celebrity unfollowed that has everyone talking
Speaker 3: and unpacking the telepathy tapes, a viral podcast that dethrone
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan, and then came the backlash.
Speaker 2: I am living my very happiest life today because I'm
Speaker 2: bringing all the schoreless gossip, all the celebrity news. So
Speaker 2: permit me a smug huh at the news that one
Speaker 2: Travis Kelcey of Big Footballer who dates Taylor Swift fame,
Speaker 2: has unfollowed, the husband of one of Taylor's absolute best mates,
Speaker 2: Blake Lively. Yes, Travis is no longer Instagram buddies with
Speaker 2: Ryan Reynolds, and the speculation is rife. Is this about
Speaker 2: that court case build for next year between Justin Baldoni
Speaker 2: and Blake Lively and not wanting to be pulled into
Speaker 2: all the unabating drama of it. Or is Travis just
Speaker 2: sick of all the Rex and Football club reels? Or
Speaker 2: did his finger just slip and he accidentally pressed unfollow
Speaker 2: next to a smiling picture of Deadpool Jesse. What is
Speaker 2: the significant subtext here?
Speaker 4: As if she'd no, no, I have so many thoughts
Speaker 4: about this.
Speaker 2: I've been thinking, don't worry about I'm coming to you
Speaker 2: for the full Taylor run. The tailor's to take turns
Speaker 2: here she knows about unfollowing?
Speaker 1: Before you talk? Can I just have a shout out
Speaker 1: to whatever piece of software it is that gossip columnists
Speaker 1: have installed that shows them someone's two million followers goes
Speaker 1: to like one million.
Speaker 4: That's not what happened. I went to fans noticed.
Speaker 1: The fans literally going how many followers does Ryan Reynolds have?
Speaker 3: To that that's what fan discovered something else. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I'd call myself a fan of Travis Kelsey,
Speaker 3: but I went on too his Instagram and I was like,
Speaker 3: everyone's talking about the Ryan Reynold's unfollow Does a man
Speaker 3: follow Blake? And I went and had a look, No,
Speaker 3: he doesn't, he doesn't follow Blake. And then I went
Speaker 3: and had a look, and Blake Lively follows Taylor, but
Speaker 3: she does not follow Travis, which is weird given that
Speaker 3: Blake and Ryan were at the super Bowl last year
Speaker 3: supporting them. So there has been a holiday together not
Speaker 3: that long. Yeah, I'll tell you exactly what's happened.
Speaker 2: This is Travis's content is a bit boring.
Speaker 4: It's a worrying.
Speaker 3: He's not a big instagra and I do think Ryan
Speaker 3: posts too much about Rexham. So I did wonder if
Speaker 3: that was just a little bit of overkill and Travis
Speaker 3: was like enough. But last week there were all these
Speaker 3: rumors about how Justin Baldoni court case Taylor subpoened. Why
Speaker 3: would she be subpoened because of the mention that Blake
Speaker 3: Lively made used her name really to leverage a bit
Speaker 3: of power with Justin Baldoni. Very embarrassing according to Justin Baldoni. Yes, well,
Speaker 3: it's it's a text message. We've read the texts. Oh yes,
Speaker 3: So Taylor is upset, she's pissed. She's come home to
Speaker 3: their home and she's upset. She's pulling out her hair,
Speaker 3: she's going I've had a terrible day.
Speaker 1: I would like to be removed from this narrative.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and Travis wants to fix it, and he's going,
Speaker 3: he's like, he's grunting because he's going, I really want
Speaker 3: to help you, Taylor, but I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: And Taylor's going, you don't have to fix it. You
Speaker 3: just have to listen to me and just be here
Speaker 3: and hold me in this moment. But Travis is like, no, no,
Speaker 3: I know what I'm going to do. And he gets
Speaker 3: out his phone and.
Speaker 1: She goes, no, Travis, don't, don't Travis, and.
Speaker 4: Then he goes to his follower account. He goes, I'm
Speaker 4: going to follow him.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it,
Speaker 1: do it, and she says, watch me, watch me, Taylor, Travis.
Speaker 3: And she also says, Travis, you never go on Instagram
Speaker 3: like it doesn't make any difference, and he went unfollowed.
Speaker 1: You're a TikTok guy.
Speaker 4: Fixed it.
Speaker 2: But wouldn't she have been like, but then everybody's going
Speaker 2: to write about this and the narrative just keeps going.
Speaker 4: But Travis had to do something. He couldn't just sit there.
Speaker 2: Because he is an alpha male who likes to fix shit.
Speaker 4: Yes, he had to do something.
Speaker 1: He is very atack Cate one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: She's got it.
Speaker 1: The only I mean, it is just so glorious the
Speaker 1: way that we have this actual proof. I mean, you
Speaker 1: said it was scrollus gossip, but it is actually factually correct.
Speaker 1: That Travis is no longer following.
Speaker 2: I know for certain that he ever did.
Speaker 1: There's empirical evidence. No, that's details, hold.
Speaker 3: On, that doesn't feel importants important is that Blake still
Speaker 3: follows Taylor. Importantly, Taylor follows no one, which complicates this narrative.
Speaker 2: But that's because, yeah, Taylor, it would just be helpful
Speaker 2: if we knew who she was unfollowing.
Speaker 1: Okay, so look, there are so many people who are
Speaker 1: pissed at being dragged into this.
Speaker 4: Because Hugh Jackman's been dragged in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's also exactly. This is not good. This
Speaker 1: is not good for them. It's not good for their brand.
Speaker 1: They do not have a dog in this fight. It
Speaker 1: is not their monkey's not their circus, all of those things.
Speaker 1: And yet can you even imagine Tree pains pissed pain,
Speaker 1: She's been organized.
Speaker 3: She's now of course Taylor's publicser.
Speaker 1: She is, She's an icon. I think she's my roman
Speaker 1: and part think about her all the time. What's she doing?
Speaker 1: What's she doing? And I just imagine where she's like,
Speaker 1: Fuck this, this is not part of our plan. What
Speaker 1: are we going to do. We're going to unfollow.
Speaker 4: We're going to unfollow?
Speaker 1: Can you do this age?
Speaker 3: Because there's no such thing as an accidental unfollow? No,
Speaker 3: it's an active war.
Speaker 1: I don't believe anyone that says you've been hacked.
Speaker 3: Autism Telepathy a number one podcast and the fallout. Look,
Speaker 3: this is a big topic and a story that has
Speaker 3: spanned several months. But there was an article in The
Speaker 3: Cut last week called I Can Hear thoughts. A podcast
Speaker 3: called The Telepathy Tapes claims a group of non speaking
Speaker 3: autistic people can read minds. The truth is more complicated.
Speaker 3: We are going to start at the beginning. You might
Speaker 3: remember that at the end of last year, particularly over
Speaker 3: the summer holidays, a podcast called The Telepathy Tapes went viral.
Speaker 3: I heard about it from out loud is yes me
Speaker 3: too actually, and it was hosted by documentary filmmaker Ki Dickens,
Speaker 3: and the series explored the theory that children with non
Speaker 3: speaking autism were communicating with their parents telepathically. Hear me
Speaker 3: out because I listened to this podcast at the time
Speaker 3: and found parts of it really compelling. So it begins
Speaker 3: by saying Ki Dickens says, for decades, a very specific
Speaker 3: group of people have been claiming telepathy is happening. Nobody
Speaker 3: has believed them, nobody has listened to them. But on
Speaker 3: this podcast we do. And in the same way that
Speaker 3: when someone is blind, their other senses heighten, like they
Speaker 3: might have a furgus. It's a smell, yes, exactly right,
Speaker 3: and that's called sensory compensation. The idea was that kids
Speaker 3: with non speaking autism could in some cases read the
Speaker 3: minds of their parents or teachers, and this was uncovered
Speaker 3: in the podcast through a process called spelling. I had
Speaker 3: never heard of this before. It is a two way
Speaker 3: communication system whereby the non speaking child points to letters
Speaker 3: on a board and is guided by a parent and
Speaker 3: that makes out words, and sometimes.
Speaker 1: The parent is holding the child's hand, or the child
Speaker 1: is holding the parents' hand and guiding them.
Speaker 3: And guiding them exactly right. And listening to it blew
Speaker 3: my mind. I am open to this stuff. There were
Speaker 3: some amazing cases of a parent opening a book or
Speaker 3: reading a passage and the child being able to make
Speaker 3: out what was in the book. Again, this is not
Speaker 3: a visual medium, it's audio, So in the audio sense,
Speaker 3: I was going, this is pretty convincing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the podcast, the host did a whole lot
Speaker 1: of experiments which she took the audience through in graphic detail,
Speaker 1: and they were quite repetitive. So she came in with
Speaker 1: a fairly cynical mindset. And it wasn't all just spelling.
Speaker 1: Some of it was they'd put up a screen and
Speaker 1: they'd show the mother a word or something, and then
Speaker 1: the child on the other side of the screen, without
Speaker 1: having any contact with the mother, would have to write
Speaker 1: down or whatever what that word was exactly, And the
Speaker 1: level of accuracy was very high in many of these cases.
Speaker 3: So the podcast grew and grew, and now it has
Speaker 3: amassed more than fifteen million downloads. But with that popularity
Speaker 3: came a lot of criticism. There was a lot that
Speaker 3: Dickens hadn't included. For example, the spelling method has been
Speaker 3: routinely disproven, and that is because if especially if it's
Speaker 3: a parent and a non speaking autistic child, there's unconscious
Speaker 3: cues literally unconscious. They have no idea that they're making them,
Speaker 3: but they can queue that. Oh yeah, you're getting the
Speaker 3: word dog right. These kids are especially good at that.
Speaker 1: So almost like predictive text, but it's like the parent predicting.
Speaker 3: Exactly, so spelling. Lots of criticism that it really didn't
Speaker 3: go into. And the second really big criticism was that
Speaker 3: it fell into a trope. And this is a term
Speaker 3: that a lot of disability advocates use called super crip,
Speaker 3: and it is a term that describes a tendency we
Speaker 3: have to present a disabled person as having extraordinary or
Speaker 3: magical abilities that makes them worthwhile, So think like rain Men.
Speaker 3: Since its release, Dickens has been offered documentary deals. All
Speaker 3: the studios that said no to her original idea now
Speaker 3: saying yes. But instead she's crowdfunding for an independent second season.
Speaker 3: So there's magic, spirituality, the metaphysical, whatever you want to
Speaker 3: call it. Are these conversations worth having or can they
Speaker 3: do more harm than good Holly?
Speaker 2: It's so complicated because one of the things that really
Speaker 2: comes through, both in the podcast and in the writing
Speaker 2: about the podcast when they're talking about these families is
Speaker 2: that these are very often parents who are in impossibly
Speaker 2: difficult circumstances. It is incredibly difficult work to be looking
Speaker 2: after a child with severe disabilities and nonverbal, sometimes violent,
Speaker 2: very difficult to predict control. A lot of the ideas
Speaker 2: of you know, the milestones and the life that you
Speaker 2: might have had together is derailed, and carers they're being
Speaker 2: asked every day to be entirely selfless, like entirely selfless,
Speaker 2: and the intensity often of that bond between the carer
Speaker 2: and the child. To your point Jesse about whether or
Speaker 2: not the spelling you know it's not intentional, but there
Speaker 2: is almost a telepathy between those two is not surprising either.
Speaker 2: So the idea that the parents are the ones who've
Speaker 2: been saying, there's something special about my child and people
Speaker 2: need to understand it. There's something otherworldly about my child.
Speaker 2: We can communicate in ways that you don't understand. I
Speaker 2: have a lot of empathy and sympathy for right because
Speaker 2: the general able world looks at people with very severe
Speaker 2: disability and does like to be really brutal about it.
Speaker 2: They question, what's the point of that? You know what
Speaker 2: I mean? To your point before about the problem with
Speaker 2: the magical myth is that somehow we need to be
Speaker 2: validating why people are sure, or why people are interesting,
Speaker 2: or why people even deigned to exist you know and matter,
Speaker 2: So I have so much sympathy for that. I don't
Speaker 2: think I can answer the question of whether or not
Speaker 2: I think these conversations should be had. Because am I
Speaker 2: glad that those families got to tell their stories. We
Speaker 2: all learned something about their children. Yeah, I am. I
Speaker 2: don't know that. I think it's entirely regrettable, But then
Speaker 2: I'm not informed enough about the other side of this
Speaker 2: conversation to be able to say, oh, yes, it's definitely damaging.
Speaker 3: There was a quote in I think it was actually
Speaker 3: in the podcast, but it's in the cut article where
Speaker 3: a mother says, I was asking myself was he even
Speaker 3: in there?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Because if you've got a child who cannot speak, who
Speaker 3: cannot say I love you, who cannot.
Speaker 4: What they want, their desires.
Speaker 2: And that child was sort of six foot tall and
Speaker 2: two hundred pounds and is a human and now not
Speaker 2: a child in your life who your entire life is
Speaker 2: oriented around their needs and caring for them, she knows
Speaker 2: him better than any one in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have no doubt that they have a
Speaker 3: method of understanding one another that maybe you or I
Speaker 3: couldn't understand.
Speaker 4: And I think they're basically mean there are things.
Speaker 1: That you can't explain, you know, bonds between parents and children,
Speaker 1: or between siblings or between twins. I don't think everything
Speaker 1: can necessarily be proven scientifically, And I guess I'd have
Speaker 1: to ask what's the harm in it? Like, does it
Speaker 1: even matter whether it's able to be proven or not proven.
Speaker 1: I just don't see the harm. And if it brings
Speaker 1: some comfort or some utility to the people involved, what
Speaker 1: does it matter what any of us think?
Speaker 3: So the critics would say that it contributes to an
Speaker 3: othering of going. These people are other, they are not
Speaker 3: like us. We're kind of projecting this magical, almost monstrous
Speaker 3: thing on them, which.
Speaker 1: But is it monstrous or is it elevating their status?
Speaker 1: Because people with disabilities are among the lowest status, most
Speaker 1: vulnerable people in our community. And by saying no, what
Speaker 1: you see on the outside, there's more going on, doesn't that,
Speaker 1: if anything, elevate their status.
Speaker 3: At the other extreme, And this is in the cart
Speaker 3: article is false accusations like they've had instances of spelling
Speaker 3: where they believe that they have elicited some sort of
Speaker 3: disclosure about an allegation that they've then gone Has this
Speaker 3: been reinforced by the person who is helping them. Spell
Speaker 3: are we projecting what this person wants? And is there
Speaker 3: then going to be an investment and a focus on
Speaker 3: a method of communication that maybe doesn't work and if
Speaker 3: it doesn't work, And I think that anyone who knows
Speaker 3: anything about the NDIS and disability support knows that the
Speaker 3: resources and the time are finite. You also don't want
Speaker 3: to give families false hope or make someone feel like
Speaker 3: if your child can't do this, there's something wrong with
Speaker 3: that child. And so I can sort of see that.
Speaker 3: But listening to these parents, I thought, in terms of
Speaker 3: status and who we listen to, do we listen to
Speaker 3: anyone less than the parent of a child with autism?
Speaker 3: We don't afford them a platform. And there would be moments,
Speaker 3: there would be so much that we can learn about
Speaker 3: humanity and connection through these people that has otherwise been
Speaker 3: totally erased. And I do think that if you are
Speaker 3: non speaking, your brain would be working differently in a
Speaker 3: way that I find absolutely fascinating. I wished when I
Speaker 3: was listening to all of this, I wish that my
Speaker 3: grandmother was around who raised a child with a disability,
Speaker 3: and then a grandchild and had the most remarkable relationships
Speaker 3: with both of them. And I can see with my cousin,
Speaker 3: I can see how the world sees him as someone
Speaker 3: with an intellectual disability who can't read or write, can't
Speaker 3: write his own name. There are things he can do
Speaker 3: that I will never be able to do. And you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes we laugh about being able to recite an entire
Speaker 3: train line. He can get on a train and end
Speaker 3: up exactly where, like sense of direction, that sort of stuff,
Speaker 3: And I think people who love people with disabilities want
Speaker 3: the world to know about that.
Speaker 2: After the break globe stopping carb news from the High
Speaker 2: Priestess Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mom
Speaker 1: and Me are Out Loud just for Mamma and Me
Speaker 1: as subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to
Speaker 1: get your daily dose of out Loud and a big
Speaker 1: thank you to everyone who is already subscribed. Megan the
Speaker 1: Duchess of Jam has done her first long form podcast
Speaker 1: interview on someone Else's show. Now it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of a spurious claim to make because she's now hosting
Speaker 1: her second podcast. She's done a lot of podcasting, but
Speaker 1: now she's on the other side of the microphone a
Speaker 1: woman called Jamie Kernlema, who I hadn't heard of, but
Speaker 1: turns out she was the founder of it Cosmetics.
Speaker 4: Great Great Foundation, Great Foundations.
Speaker 1: She then sold that for many millions or hundreds of
Speaker 1: millions of dollars to Loreal. And she lives next door
Speaker 1: to Meghan and Harry in Montecito. So she has a
Speaker 1: podcast and it's kind of woo woo. It's very you know, American,
Speaker 1: sort of earnest. And the podcast interview she's done with Meghan,
Speaker 1: her friend. They took a lot about their friendships. It's
Speaker 1: a rich text for discussion at another time. But this
Speaker 1: piece of parenting advice has particularly excited everyone, and I
Speaker 1: need to play it for your reactions.
Speaker 6: And so I'd created for the kids these email addresses
Speaker 6: that names again that you would never guess, that I
Speaker 6: will give them at some point in their lives when
Speaker 6: they're older. But before I got ABD, almost every night
Speaker 6: I email them. Wow, I email because it doesn't have
Speaker 6: to be a heavy left and you email them like,
Speaker 6: here's a report card from today, Oh my gosh, she
Speaker 6: said the funniest thing this morning. Or here's a picture
Speaker 6: of you two having breakfast, or here's you playing with
Speaker 6: the things that you're not going to frame, the things
Speaker 6: that you're not going to put pen to people in
Speaker 6: a journal. But they will end up at one point
Speaker 6: in their life, maybe when they're sixteen or when they're eighteen,
Speaker 6: that I say, here's an email that I've been keeping
Speaker 6: for you.
Speaker 2: I have full body chills right now.
Speaker 1: I have a question, Jesse, if you got full body chills.
Speaker 3: That is so lovely that Megan does that for her
Speaker 3: two children. I, like Megan, had the very best of intentions.
Speaker 3: And when Luna was maybe six weeks old, and I
Speaker 3: would still certifiably omnal in a very strange place, I
Speaker 3: set up an email address for little Luna and I
Speaker 3: wrote her an email about how she is God.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course is the.
Speaker 3: Best thing, and she is so loved and I don't
Speaker 3: know coherent, I don't think it makes sense. But I
Speaker 3: sent her that email because I was going to send
Speaker 3: her an email every week about.
Speaker 4: All the little things, only every week, only every week.
Speaker 4: I'm not like Megan Dragon the chain.
Speaker 3: And then this strange thing happened where I went back
Speaker 3: to work and that email address.
Speaker 4: I couldn't tell you what it is. I couldn't tell
Speaker 4: you how to log in, could not be any of that.
Speaker 3: And then for her first birthday, I got a scrapbook
Speaker 3: because we didn't do anything. We didn't have a party
Speaker 3: or anything, and I went, everyone should write a message
Speaker 3: about something like a funny lunar story, or like, you know,
Speaker 3: the memory that we'll never remember. And so I got
Speaker 3: everyone to write, and I got these markers and I didn't.
Speaker 4: Maya wrote in it. I don't know if anyone else did.
Speaker 1: No one else did.
Speaker 4: Well, I've got good news about that.
Speaker 3: I think Luca threw it out because I can't find it.
Speaker 2: I have questions, one big question. When Lily, bet or
Speaker 2: Archie or any of these precious chi children turn eighteen
Speaker 2: and are presented with perhaps a print out, who knows
Speaker 2: of all the emails every day for eighteen years of
Speaker 2: things that Mum thought that were really exciting and cute
Speaker 2: that we did. That time we shoved a piece of
Speaker 2: lego upon nose, that time we kicked down in.
Speaker 1: The balls, that time.
Speaker 2: You know, like, what do you do with all that?
Speaker 2: What do you do with it?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I think there's such thing as too many memories.
Speaker 2: And then the other question I have is are we
Speaker 2: surprised that there is a generation of young people who
Speaker 2: will not take direction from their bosses? Like I've got
Speaker 2: eighteen years of emails telling me that I'm the most
Speaker 2: special little snowflake that ever existed in the entire universe,
Speaker 2: and that every utterance out of my mouth is genius, creative, beautiful,
Speaker 2: like to precious moment?
Speaker 4: Are you sending me an email with all my cute
Speaker 4: little quirks?
Speaker 2: I always appreciation.
Speaker 1: She loved the part where she said, it's not the
Speaker 1: stuff that you'd put in your journals, So you're already journalist.
Speaker 2: And putting things in frames.
Speaker 1: So we're writing the three every night, one to yourself
Speaker 1: and one to each of her children. Is a lot
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 2: The mental load.
Speaker 3: Just why people aren't having children. Sorry, it's why we're
Speaker 3: not having children. Too many emails, too much.
Speaker 2: I just need to make it clear that whenever you
Speaker 2: listen to Megan lately, and because she's on so many things,
Speaker 2: I've been listened to her a lot. No one has
Speaker 2: loved the identity you of new mum more than Megan.
Speaker 2: She is loving it, and I get it She's ain't
Speaker 2: that new, but but you know she loves being a
Speaker 2: toddler mom, a school mom. The school she she loves, loves,
Speaker 2: loves it. While we're talking about my favorite Perfect Humans,
Speaker 2: best friends and dream Brunch companions, there has been news
Speaker 2: in Gwyneth pultrow Land that we need to discuss. You
Speaker 2: might have seen it because it made headlines everywhere from
Speaker 2: news dot com to the esteemed BBC. The news is
Speaker 2: that Gwyneth is sometimes sometimes eating carbs.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: This is what she said on her podcast Goop in
Speaker 2: an episode called for the Love of Food.
Speaker 7: It's the reason Brad and I became paleo a few
Speaker 7: years ago now, although I'm a little sick of it,
Speaker 7: if I'm honest, and getting back into eating some sour
Speaker 7: dilk bread and some cheese. There I said it, a
Speaker 7: little pasta after being strict with it for so long.
Speaker 2: There I said it. I said it, I ate cheese sometimes. Okay,
Speaker 2: a little bit of context. I'm just feeling so giggly
Speaker 2: because after Megan and then Gwynneth, it's just a whisper.
Speaker 3: I imagine a little bit of pasta like toyar two pieces,
Speaker 3: like you either have a bowl of pasta that's bigger
Speaker 3: than your face.
Speaker 4: So you don't have between.
Speaker 2: Come on now some context. Gwyneth was talking for thirty
Speaker 2: six minutes about her relationship with food. She talked about
Speaker 2: how she's always been a foodie. She did all the
Speaker 2: usual drinking and smoking and coffee years, and then when
Speaker 2: her father became ill with throat cancer in her mid twenties,
Speaker 2: she became obsessed with food as medicine. She became hardcore macrobiotic,
Speaker 2: which is the first time I'd ever heard the word macrobiotic,
Speaker 2: because she and Madonna were bestie to remember this era
Speaker 2: mean macrobiotic exactly. She and Madonna and Tracy Anderson the
Speaker 2: Trainer were always tripping around London with their yoga mats,
Speaker 2: and every story about any event they went to was
Speaker 2: always like they wouldn't need it, they had to have
Speaker 2: their browin rise and their lentils blah blah blah. Anyway, then,
Speaker 2: as we all know, she went on, she created goops,
Speaker 2: she wrote cookbooks, and she's gone through phases of saying
Speaker 2: she's loosened up. But in this chat she was saying
Speaker 2: that she and Brad had been mostly paleo for years,
Speaker 2: and paleo if you don't know, God bless you.
Speaker 1: If you don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's about protein, no carbs, and an obsession with everything
Speaker 2: being clean in inverted commerce.
Speaker 4: So no Eminem's definitely no Eminem's.
Speaker 2: Come on, Jesse Mia, I know you have thoughts on
Speaker 2: the impact Gwyneth and other people like when it's food
Speaker 2: conversations have on women. Do you think that famous women
Speaker 2: should just shut the f up about what they're eating
Speaker 2: and what they're not eating.
Speaker 1: Everyone can say what they want, but I think what's
Speaker 1: important to remember always is the subtext, which is that
Speaker 1: famous women have more pressure to conform to beauty standards
Speaker 1: than probably any other women, and that means a life
Speaker 1: of restricted eating. And sometimes that restricted eating has a
Speaker 1: name like paleo or epkins or gluten free. I know
Speaker 1: that there are some people who are legitimately gluten free,
Speaker 1: but I also know from speaking to eating disorders experts
Speaker 1: that often you don't say you're on a diet, you
Speaker 1: don't say you're restricting, but you start becoming a vegan
Speaker 1: or you start cutting out clean, restricting things. Having said that,
Speaker 1: I really can see that connection, and I thought that
Speaker 1: was interesting that she's I think she even used the
Speaker 1: word of thorexia, which is that idea of when clean
Speaker 1: eating becomes an obsession and a way to really justify
Speaker 1: extreme restriction, and it's an eating disorder dressed up as
Speaker 1: a healthy activity. And you can see that she felt
Speaker 1: like her life was out of control. She was at
Speaker 1: the height of her fame. She just went an oscar.
Speaker 1: Her father was dying. He'd been a smoker and had
Speaker 1: not been a bastion of health.
Speaker 2: And she says he loved food right going out to
Speaker 2: den his favorite thing to do.
Speaker 1: So the idea that there could be an answer, and
Speaker 1: that somehow she could control and help not just him,
Speaker 1: but also everyone else in her family so that she
Speaker 1: didn't lose anyone else. I can see this idea of
Speaker 1: food as medicine can be a slippery slope, and I
Speaker 1: think it can be very deductive. But I think the
Speaker 1: subtext to all of this is skinny. And I think
Speaker 1: that you've got gen X women who grew up in
Speaker 1: the absolute center of diet culture. You know, from the
Speaker 1: supermodels to heroin Chic to grunge to all of that.
Speaker 1: It was very much about restricted eating. And I think
Speaker 1: that whether you dress it up as not eating sugar
Speaker 1: or all of these things, the underlying subtext is skinny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I don't think it's possible to unscramble
Speaker 3: someone sharing what they eat in a day, or sharing
Speaker 3: their diet or whatever from being instructive. The instruction is
Speaker 3: in the way your body looks, whether or not you.
Speaker 1: Yes, So you're saying that Gwyneth's saying what she eats
Speaker 1: is really just about us listening so that we can
Speaker 1: eat like her, so we can look like her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's why I think the question is a trap.
Speaker 3: And we've talked about it on this show before, and
Speaker 3: in fact, we did a subscriber episode where we spoke
Speaker 3: about that and we talked about down a plate and
Speaker 3: I refused. I was like, I am not saying what
Speaker 3: I ate because I'm presenting it as something whether I
Speaker 3: want to or not, instructive when I don't think it
Speaker 3: is instructing.
Speaker 2: I think that's really sad because I love food and
Speaker 2: I could talk about food for one hundred years. I
Speaker 2: could out rest, and I don't like the I agree
Speaker 2: very much with what you're both saying. This is very
Speaker 2: complicated territory, but the idea that women can only talk
Speaker 2: about food and it's about what they look like isn't true,
Speaker 2: like lots of women get an enormous amount of joy
Speaker 2: out of FID. I think you can comfort and guilt
Speaker 2: and shame. But also what's interesting to me is, well,
Speaker 2: you're definitely right me or about the fact that this
Speaker 2: was the apex of diet culture. But the other piece
Speaker 2: to this is that a lot of women who have
Speaker 2: this complicated pleasure pain relationship with food, and most women
Speaker 2: I know restrict what they in some way. I don't
Speaker 2: mean in a serious way, but I mean in terms
Speaker 2: of if I eat that cake now, eating that like
Speaker 2: most women do, like they just do, and I quite
Speaker 2: like it when they're honest about it. I feel a
Speaker 2: little bit like that the way you do about botox,
Speaker 2: Like tell me you've had it, don't tell me you
Speaker 2: haven't had it. I can't bear it when tiny skinny
Speaker 2: celebrities are like I hate burgers, I'm like, no, you don't.
Speaker 1: Did you notice that in Megan's show that subtext of
Speaker 1: diet culture where not necessarily from her, but sometimes and
Speaker 1: from her guess there was often oh, we've been for
Speaker 1: a hike, so we can have the cake, or I've
Speaker 1: been good today so.
Speaker 2: Well, And also they weren't saying that, but they were
Speaker 2: eating a lot of carbs that you actually just know
Speaker 2: if you know anything about this a la world, they
Speaker 2: are not eating carbs, which is why this made headlines.
Speaker 2: But the other piece of this, it isn't all about skinny.
Speaker 2: It is partly about health too, because women, many many
Speaker 2: women live with this kind of general feeling of ick right,
Speaker 2: like something's not right, something's not right. If I ate better,
Speaker 2: if I did this more. And some of that is true.
Speaker 2: A lot of processed food is making a lot of
Speaker 2: people very sick. If you eat more healthily, you will
Speaker 2: probably feel better. Like like everything, there is truth to it,
Speaker 2: but when it's dressed up as high status. And it
Speaker 2: also let's not pretend that eating like this isn't incredibly expensive,
Speaker 2: like organic everything, you know. I was listening to a
Speaker 2: podcast recently where the hosts were talking about how they
Speaker 2: were hooking each other up with a link to where
Speaker 2: you could buy clean grains, and you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: so even quen wa isn't healthy unless SENSI. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: know this particular place like there's so much status in it,
Speaker 2: and it is definitely tied up with skinny. But I
Speaker 2: think one of the complicating factors is that health is
Speaker 2: part of it too. Really bad overly processed, cheap food
Speaker 2: full of chemicals is making people see.
Speaker 3: But who hasn't had something lodged into their head that
Speaker 3: a celebrity said fifteen years ago about food that has
Speaker 3: nothing to do with health. It has everything to do
Speaker 3: with weight. That has literally changed how you eat. Oh,
Speaker 3: and I think there's you know, there's guidelines about how
Speaker 3: we report in the media on weight eating disorders. You
Speaker 3: never put someone And this happens all the time, and
Speaker 3: I see it now all over Instagram, Like we should
Speaker 3: not be talking about numbers on a scale, whether it's
Speaker 3: about eating disorders or whatever, because it encourages copycat behavior.
Speaker 3: And I think that all of this is only getting
Speaker 3: worse because every time I log on to TikTok, I
Speaker 3: get a what I eat in a day and I
Speaker 3: look at it and I.
Speaker 4: Go, you haven't eating disorder? Like this is an eating disorder.
Speaker 1: Gressed up aspiration and content.
Speaker 4: Yeap, exactly right.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you out louders. That's all we have
Speaker 2: time for today. Thank you for listening to our show,
Speaker 2: and of course to our fabulous team for putting this together.
Speaker 2: We are getting on a plane and going to Perth.
Speaker 2: But we will still be back in your ears tomorrow
Speaker 2: of course, and.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to listen to. On
Speaker 1: yesterday's episode, Amelia and I talked all about the Kennedy
Speaker 1: women and one of my personal obsessions Carolyn Beissett Kennedy,
Speaker 1: who some say is the original influencer. Do you even
Speaker 1: know who she's Jesse Oria.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I went to the JFK Museum in Boston
Speaker 3: and they had like some of her clothes.
Speaker 1: Oh wow. A link, as always, will be in the
Speaker 1: show notes. Bye bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening. If
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.