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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Travis wants to fix it, and he's going, he's like,

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Speaker 3: he's grunting because he's going, I really want to help you, Taylor,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know what to do. When Taylor's going,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to fix it, you just have to

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Speaker 3: listen to me, yep, and just be here and hold

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Speaker 3: me in this moment. But Travis is like, no, no,

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Speaker 3: I know what I'm gonna do. And he gets out

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Speaker 3: his phone.

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Speaker 1: And she goes to no, Travis, don't Travis.

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Speaker 4: And then he goes to his follow account. He goes,

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna follow him.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do it.

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Speaker 4: Do it and watch me, watch me tailor Travis, and

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Speaker 4: he went unfollowed.

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Speaker 1: You're more of a TikTok guy.

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Speaker 4: Fixed it.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mommama Out Loud. What women are

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Speaker 2: actually talking about On Wednesday, the thirtieth of April, I

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Speaker 2: am hollyween Wright, I am Maya.

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Speaker 4: Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: An on Today's show when saying no costs you. Michelle

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Speaker 2: Obama has talked about what it took to not to

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Speaker 2: not President Trump's inauguration and why it's important to disappoint

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Speaker 2: people every day. Can some children read Minds? A hit

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Speaker 2: podcast said yes, the truth might be more complicated. And

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Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow is eating carbs and it's making international headlines.

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Speaker 2: Should famous women just shut up about food? But first,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens, We've.

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Speaker 3: Got some feedback for Clive Palmer, who is sending me, specifically,

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Speaker 3: a series of really annoying text messages.

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Speaker 4: Anyone else getting them.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little negged because last election he was

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Speaker 2: sending me a lot of texts. This election, I haven't

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Speaker 2: heard from him. I'm feeling ghosted.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I haven't either. But just when we were setting

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Speaker 1: up to record today, our producer mt a text.

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Speaker 3: From so I was going to say, I kid you not.

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Speaker 3: I was putting together this and I got a text message.

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Speaker 3: I checked Trumpet.

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Speaker 1: How many Trumpets have you had?

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Speaker 4: I've had four?

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Speaker 2: And what's he saying to you? Trump? Hey, Jesse, how's

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Speaker 2: your day?

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Speaker 3: That's exactly what he's saying. He knows not to call me.

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Speaker 3: I think the Trumpet has learned that we don't call

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Speaker 3: because and I was.

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Speaker 1: Picking a Trumpet's calling.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, they used to call you like they used

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Speaker 3: to do calls anyway, the.

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Speaker 1: Trumpet Patriots is the name of his political party, just

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Speaker 1: in case anyone's wondering.

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Speaker 3: And if you're wondering what his message is, well, the

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Speaker 3: first message I got said solve housing, fast trains twenty

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Speaker 3: minutes CBD, cheap land with no punctuation.

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Speaker 1: And that's just a list of nouns that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a house sale.

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Speaker 2: Where do I go?

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Speaker 1: Why do I have to turn up with cash?

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Speaker 4: I was sitting there at a wedding, and I go,

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Speaker 4: is he solving housing with the fast trains? Is he

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Speaker 4: buying more land in the CBD?

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Speaker 1: Like we didn't get to your housing faster on a train?

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Speaker 4: Like what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: But did you know?

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Speaker 3: I learned this week that these messages are totally above board,

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Speaker 3: totally legal, because politicians have a legal exemption from spam.

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Speaker 3: That's why they're allowed to send unsolicited texts. They're allowed

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Speaker 3: to call you without offering an opt out option. They

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Speaker 3: are also exempt from privacy laws, so they can collect, store,

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Speaker 3: and use your personal data without the same restrictions that

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Speaker 3: apply to any businesses. So Trumpet can literally call me

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Speaker 3: a hundred times creepy text me and I have to

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Speaker 3: copy it, and no laws requiring that these texts be truthful.

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Speaker 3: They could text me anything at all. They could say

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Speaker 3: the sky is red, the ground is yellow, and your

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Speaker 3: name is Clive.

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Speaker 2: I know why they're texting because apparently only thirty percent

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Speaker 2: of emails ever get opened, but ninety percent of text

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Speaker 2: messages do. And that's interesting, right. I don't open all

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Speaker 2: my text messages. I'm one of those people who drives

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Speaker 2: everyone crazy by having the red sign that says twenty

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Speaker 2: million texts because I just look at it and go,

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Speaker 2: I don't need to know about that, and I move

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Speaker 2: on with my life. But apparently most people are much

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Speaker 2: more organized than I am, and they open everything before

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Speaker 2: they read it.

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Speaker 3: So I reckon that texts are going to go that

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Speaker 3: way because we've learned with emails about the spam. I

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Speaker 3: no longer answer my phone because I've just been done

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Speaker 3: so many times by GET. I do not answer my

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Speaker 3: phone as a general rule, and I'm getting that way

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Speaker 3: with texts because of things like this.

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Speaker 1: A couple of months ago, you might remember that there

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Speaker 1: was gossip around whether the Obamas were getting divorced.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and Obama was dating Jennifer Aniston, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there were two specific reasons for these rumors.

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Speaker 3: Of those rumors because I feel like Mayor Friedman absolutely.

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Speaker 1: For Jennifer Aniston ones, but the rumors, I don't want

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Speaker 1: them to split up. I want starting that rumor. The

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Speaker 1: reasons that people were talking about it is because firstly,

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Speaker 1: Michelle didn't attend Jimmy Carter's funeral, and then a few

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Speaker 1: weeks later she didn't attend Donald Trump's inauguration. So what

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Speaker 1: other explanation could there be for her not showing up

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Speaker 1: as a former First Lady at these very official ceremonial events.

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Speaker 1: All the other former first ladies did except for Michelle.

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Speaker 1: So was it splits field? That's what everybody was saying. Well,

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Speaker 1: now we know that Michelle Obama's marriage wasn't in trouble,

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Speaker 1: or it might have been in trouble, might still be

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Speaker 1: in trouble, but that's not why she didn't turn up.

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Speaker 1: She just didn't want to go. Here's what she said

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Speaker 1: in a podcast interview this week.

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Speaker 5: My decision to skip the inauguration. You know what people

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Speaker 5: don't realize or my decision to make choices at the

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Speaker 5: beginning of this year that suited me were met with

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Speaker 5: such ridicule and criticism, like people couldn't believe that I

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Speaker 5: was saying no for any other reason that they had

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Speaker 5: to assume that my marriage was falling.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: You know, It's like, while I'm here really trying to

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Speaker 5: own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that

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Speaker 5: was right for me, and it took everything in my

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Speaker 5: power to not do the thing that was right or

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Speaker 5: that was perceived as right, but do the thing that

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Speaker 5: was right for me. That was a hard thing for

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Speaker 5: me to do. I had to basically trick myself out

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Speaker 5: of it. And it started with not having anything to wear.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I had affirmatively because I'm always prepared for

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Speaker 5: in a funeral any I walk around with the right dress.

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Speaker 5: I travel with clothes just in case something pops off.

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Speaker 5: So I was like, if I'm not going to do

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Speaker 5: this thing, I gotta tell my team I don't even

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Speaker 5: want to have a dress ready. It's so easy to

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Speaker 5: just say, let me do the right thing, but then

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Speaker 5: you become a shark absorber. Yeah, and that's what women

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Speaker 5: are as shark absorbers.

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Speaker 1: The idea of being a shock absorber really hit now.

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Speaker 1: For more than eight years, Michelle Obama had to be

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Speaker 1: a shock absorber because as the first black first Lady,

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Speaker 1: she didn't want to hand any ammunition to people who

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Speaker 1: believe black people didn't belong in the White House. And

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Speaker 1: she sacrificed so much, not just for the eight years

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Speaker 1: when Obama was president, but in the sort of four

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Speaker 1: years or more before that when he was running. She

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Speaker 1: held her tongue, she silenced her opinions, she straightened her hair,

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Speaker 1: she squished her personal style, she didn't show her arms.

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Speaker 1: She did all the right things, all the things that

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Speaker 1: were expected of her.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain what a shock absorber is? How would

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Speaker 3: you describe it when she says you were.

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Speaker 2: A shock So a shock absorber in the you know,

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Speaker 2: technical description of something is something that stands in between

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Speaker 2: two hard forces, so you know, like a piece of

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Speaker 2: rubber or something that stops them from banging together in

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Speaker 2: an angry aggressive way. So it's the thing that absorbs

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Speaker 2: all the pressure. So the shock absorber is getting hammered

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Speaker 2: to stop the other two things basically igniting.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I sometimes say? There must be

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Speaker 1: a time of life where you just get like I'm

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Speaker 1: jack of this. I started saying a few years ago

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Speaker 1: to my husband, I just feel like human grout. I

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Speaker 1: feel like grout.

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Speaker 2: I feel like.

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Speaker 1: Everyone else is the tile, the people I work with,

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Speaker 1: my children, my parents, my husband, and I'm just the grout.

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Speaker 1: I just fit in. I'm just there so that the

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Speaker 1: tiles don't bang together, so that everybody's life is stable

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Speaker 1: and calm. And what about me? When can I be

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Speaker 1: a tile?

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Speaker 3: So there was a an article in the New York Times,

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Speaker 3: when do I get to be a tired exactly?

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Speaker 1: And now Michelle's in her tile era.

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Speaker 4: She's a tile on her own.

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Speaker 3: But there was an article in the New York Times

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Speaker 3: during the pandemic about how women were the shock absorbers

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Speaker 3: because they were the ones that quit their jobs when

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Speaker 3: they needed to be quick like. So in a family context,

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Speaker 3: it's often said that, I mean, even with little children,

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Speaker 3: when a problem is seen, it's like, okay, me sacrificing

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Speaker 3: will cause the least conflict in this situation, which women

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Speaker 3: are programmed to do because there's something socialized into us

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Speaker 3: which is to keep the peace and to sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's lubricant.

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Speaker 2: And also I think often when a man is behaving

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Speaker 2: really badly. Think about sort of the political wives who

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Speaker 2: have to stand next to their spouse is when they've

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Speaker 2: done something unforgivable and do the smiling and the nodding

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Speaker 2: and we're all so happy. Like that's classic shock absorbent behavior, right.

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Speaker 2: The thing I loved about all the detail in what

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Speaker 2: Michelle Obama gave us is that you know, at the time,

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Speaker 2: when she didn't go, we all thought that the marriage

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Speaker 2: room as were bullshit. Really, we all knew that she

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Speaker 2: was really just going, I just can't like let them, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's it. But what I loved about that is her

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Speaker 2: describing how difficult it was. It wasn't just her sitting

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Speaker 2: at home putting a feet up and going, see, yah,

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Speaker 2: I hope you suit still fits. To Barack as he

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Speaker 2: walked out of the house, it was a whole, very

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Speaker 2: difficult thing because even for him, if you're saying no,

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Speaker 2: and you know you're going to disappoint people, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to that thing, even though everyone thinks I should go.

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Speaker 2: There's a cost to other people. So Barack Obama also

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Speaker 2: had to weather all the commentary about his marriage. He

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Speaker 2: had to go and stand there on his own. We

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Speaker 2: all remember the video of him ready to walk out

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Speaker 2: of the inauguration and they're saying, are you going to

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Speaker 2: behave and he's like no, but like he did not

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Speaker 2: have Michelle have his shock absorble with him, right, so

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Speaker 2: you know that your decision to do what's right for you,

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Speaker 2: Michelle sounds like nearly every midlife woman I know who's

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Speaker 2: in therapy who's like just going, I'm finally learning how

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Speaker 2: not to be the grout or the shock absilber. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I'm doing it for me and it's hard. And

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Speaker 2: Barack was probably going it would just shut everyone up

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Speaker 2: if you turn up, and she was like, no, I can't,

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Speaker 2: but it costs something, and nose sometimes do cost things,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was reading something recently. I can't remember

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Speaker 3: who the author was, but it was about how when

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Speaker 3: you achieve any level of success, whether it's a promotionate work,

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Speaker 3: or you know, you're Michelle Obama, the one inevitability that

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Speaker 3: comes with that is that you're going to let people down.

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Speaker 4: You're going to disappoint people.

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Speaker 3: This writer was saying you should practice it like every day,

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Speaker 3: go I am going to disappoint one person and choose

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Speaker 3: who the person is.

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Speaker 2: So hard tell me more about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So she says, you've got to choose who the

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Speaker 3: person is, because trying not to disappoint people is a

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Speaker 3: prison that you can live in your entire life. If

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Speaker 3: you're trying not to disappoint them, you're likely going to

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Speaker 3: disappoint yourself or the people closest to you. So it's

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Speaker 3: actually a skill. And there are like rules or things

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Speaker 3: that you should abide by when it comes to disappointing people.

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Speaker 3: So you should express yourself kindly, compassionately, but most importantly firmly,

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Speaker 3: Like you've got to be really clear when you're letting

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Speaker 3: someone down and you have to follow through. I think

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Speaker 3: that the firmly is where I fall flat. I will

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Speaker 3: often go to disappoint someone and I will have Luca

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Speaker 3: or Maya or someone look at the message and go,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I don't think I can do that thing. I'll

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Speaker 2: do my best absolutely maybe whatever.

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Speaker 4: You're doing it or not, and the people question marks.

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Speaker 3: The clinical psychologist doctor Nicole Lapera talks about this, and

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Speaker 3: she says that when you try to avoid disappointing someone,

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Speaker 3: you're making them small. You're operating under the belief that

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Speaker 3: they'll be crushed if you can't make something, and that's

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Speaker 3: just not true. You've got to expect more of others.

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Speaker 3: Like it's actually like you're being quite paternalistic or undermining

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Speaker 3: someone by thinking that Maya can't handle it if I say, hey,

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Speaker 3: by the way, I can't go tomorrow night.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think where I find it most difficult is with

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Speaker 1: my children and with my parents.

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Speaker 4: And don't you think that is parenting.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean disappointing like a good I never understand.

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Speaker 4: A good parent just disappoints then all the time they do.

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Speaker 2: But also the model of good parent we've been given

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Speaker 2: is constant shock absorption, constant putting yourself blast, constant swallowing

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Speaker 2: your feelings so your kids don't see them, not having

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Speaker 2: that argument with your partner so your kid doesn't see it,

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Speaker 2: putting up with somebody talking to it in a certain way,

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Like that is a lot of parenting,

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Speaker 2: and there's and a lot of it is necessary and

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Speaker 2: you kind of have to do it. And this is

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Speaker 2: why often I think that this era of Arah comes

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Speaker 2: a little later when the steaks aren't quite so high

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Speaker 2: for your family, because what's interesting about Michelle Obama specifically.

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Speaker 2: It's obvious why she didn't want to go to the

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Speaker 2: Trump inauguration, but she also didn't want to go to

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Speaker 2: the Jimmy carterfuneral because she knew she'd have to sit

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Speaker 2: next to him and make nice. And she obviously has

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Speaker 2: just that in her integrity, as she would say, she

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Speaker 2: cannot do that anymore. It's costing her too much to

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Speaker 2: someone who she really believes is ripping at the fabric

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Speaker 2: of all that she stands for. She can do that now.

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Speaker 2: She couldn't do that when she was First Lady, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: No, she couldn't. And I think the other level of

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Speaker 1: it for her is seeing how Milania Trump behaved that

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump. But as she you know, if you

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Speaker 1: read her book Becoming, she talks about having to do

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Speaker 1: everything so scrupulously and everybody looking to find fault. When

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Speaker 1: Michelle Obama was First Lady and then Milania comes in,

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Speaker 1: she wears a jacket saying, I don't care. She doesn't

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Speaker 1: live at the White House half the time. She doesn't

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Speaker 1: really do anything as First Lady.

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Speaker 2: As Christmas Trees of all Time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she just I mean phoning it in is

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Speaker 1: an exaggeration of what she does. She doesn't even phone

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Speaker 1: it in, and so she just flouts every single convention

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Speaker 1: and every single norm. And then you can see Michelle

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Speaker 1: Obama going, why am I always the good girl? Like

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Speaker 1: he's not running for elected office anymore. I am not

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Speaker 1: that role model. And there was all that pressure on

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Speaker 1: her to actually run for being the president. Can you imagine,

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Speaker 1: like with her and Oprah, you're the only ones that

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Speaker 1: can save us from Donald Trump, and everybody wanted her

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Speaker 1: to do it, and she said no, and the cost

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Speaker 1: of disappointing all of those people. You've got to admire that.

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Speaker 3: But what you gain from choosing disappointing others is self respect.

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Speaker 3: I think self respect is on the other side of that,

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Speaker 3: and I think that you can probably live a lot

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Speaker 3: of years being the shock absorber not wanting to disappoint,

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Speaker 3: and it erodes.

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Speaker 4: Your self respect.

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Speaker 1: It also is immunity against resentment, because you know what,

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Speaker 1: grout and shock absorbers feel resentful and it might come

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Speaker 1: after a decade, two decades, whatever, and then suddenly the

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Speaker 1: grout saying to the title, Hey, I'm fucking grout, I'm

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Speaker 1: over this, and you might end your marriage or you

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Speaker 1: might you know, do something drastic, but the title never

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Speaker 1: knew because you've just gone it's okay, it's okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: I'll just be here and absorb everything. And then it's like, hmm,

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Speaker 1: so maybe we need to you know, say no and

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Speaker 1: disappoint people a little bit earlier.

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Speaker 4: Constantly must be done, constantly. You do it well, man,

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Speaker 4: I'm so good at it.

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Speaker 3: In a moment, the celebrity unfollowed that has everyone talking

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Speaker 3: and unpacking the telepathy tapes, a viral podcast that dethrone

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Speaker 3: Joe Rogan, and then came the backlash.

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Speaker 2: I am living my very happiest life today because I'm

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Speaker 2: bringing all the schoreless gossip, all the celebrity news. So

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Speaker 2: permit me a smug huh at the news that one

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Speaker 2: Travis Kelcey of Big Footballer who dates Taylor Swift fame,

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Speaker 2: has unfollowed, the husband of one of Taylor's absolute best mates,

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Speaker 2: Blake Lively. Yes, Travis is no longer Instagram buddies with

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Speaker 2: Ryan Reynolds, and the speculation is rife. Is this about

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Speaker 2: that court case build for next year between Justin Baldoni

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Speaker 2: and Blake Lively and not wanting to be pulled into

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Speaker 2: all the unabating drama of it. Or is Travis just

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Speaker 2: sick of all the Rex and Football club reels? Or

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Speaker 2: did his finger just slip and he accidentally pressed unfollow

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Speaker 2: next to a smiling picture of Deadpool Jesse. What is

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Speaker 2: the significant subtext here?

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Speaker 4: As if she'd no, no, I have so many thoughts

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Speaker 4: about this.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking, don't worry about I'm coming to you

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Speaker 2: for the full Taylor run. The tailor's to take turns

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Speaker 2: here she knows about unfollowing?

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Speaker 1: Before you talk? Can I just have a shout out

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Speaker 1: to whatever piece of software it is that gossip columnists

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Speaker 1: have installed that shows them someone's two million followers goes

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Speaker 1: to like one million.

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Speaker 4: That's not what happened. I went to fans noticed.

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Speaker 1: The fans literally going how many followers does Ryan Reynolds have?

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Speaker 3: To that that's what fan discovered something else. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if I'd call myself a fan of Travis Kelsey,

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Speaker 3: but I went on too his Instagram and I was like,

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Speaker 3: everyone's talking about the Ryan Reynold's unfollow Does a man

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Speaker 3: follow Blake? And I went and had a look, No,

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Speaker 3: he doesn't, he doesn't follow Blake. And then I went

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Speaker 3: and had a look, and Blake Lively follows Taylor, but

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Speaker 3: she does not follow Travis, which is weird given that

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Speaker 3: Blake and Ryan were at the super Bowl last year

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Speaker 3: supporting them. So there has been a holiday together not

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Speaker 3: that long. Yeah, I'll tell you exactly what's happened.

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Speaker 2: This is Travis's content is a bit boring.

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Speaker 4: It's a worrying.

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Speaker 3: He's not a big instagra and I do think Ryan

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Speaker 3: posts too much about Rexham. So I did wonder if

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Speaker 3: that was just a little bit of overkill and Travis

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Speaker 3: was like enough. But last week there were all these

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Speaker 3: rumors about how Justin Baldoni court case Taylor subpoened. Why

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Speaker 3: would she be subpoened because of the mention that Blake

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Speaker 3: Lively made used her name really to leverage a bit

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Speaker 3: of power with Justin Baldoni. Very embarrassing according to Justin Baldoni. Yes, well,

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Speaker 3: it's it's a text message. We've read the texts. Oh yes,

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Speaker 3: So Taylor is upset, she's pissed. She's come home to

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Speaker 3: their home and she's upset. She's pulling out her hair,

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Speaker 3: she's going I've had a terrible day.

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Speaker 1: I would like to be removed from this narrative.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, and Travis wants to fix it, and he's going,

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Speaker 3: he's like, he's grunting because he's going, I really want

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Speaker 3: to help you, Taylor, but I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 3: And Taylor's going, you don't have to fix it. You

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Speaker 3: just have to listen to me and just be here

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Speaker 3: and hold me in this moment. But Travis is like, no, no,

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Speaker 3: I know what I'm going to do. And he gets

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Speaker 3: out his phone and.

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Speaker 1: She goes, no, Travis, don't, don't Travis, and.

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Speaker 4: Then he goes to his follower account. He goes, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to follow him.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it,

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Speaker 1: do it, and she says, watch me, watch me, Taylor, Travis.

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Speaker 3: And she also says, Travis, you never go on Instagram

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Speaker 3: like it doesn't make any difference, and he went unfollowed.

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Speaker 1: You're a TikTok guy.

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Speaker 4: Fixed it.

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Speaker 2: But wouldn't she have been like, but then everybody's going

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Speaker 2: to write about this and the narrative just keeps going.

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Speaker 4: But Travis had to do something. He couldn't just sit there.

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Speaker 2: Because he is an alpha male who likes to fix shit.

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Speaker 4: Yes, he had to do something.

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Speaker 1: He is very atack Cate one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: She's got it.

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Speaker 1: The only I mean, it is just so glorious the

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Speaker 1: way that we have this actual proof. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: said it was scrollus gossip, but it is actually factually correct.

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00:19:17,502 --> 00:19:19,262
Speaker 1: That Travis is no longer following.

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Speaker 2: I know for certain that he ever did.

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Speaker 1: There's empirical evidence. No, that's details, hold.

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Speaker 3: On, that doesn't feel importants important is that Blake still

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Speaker 3: follows Taylor. Importantly, Taylor follows no one, which complicates this narrative.

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Speaker 2: But that's because, yeah, Taylor, it would just be helpful

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Speaker 2: if we knew who she was unfollowing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so look, there are so many people who are

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Speaker 1: pissed at being dragged into this.

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Speaker 4: Because Hugh Jackman's been dragged in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's also exactly. This is not good. This

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Speaker 1: is not good for them. It's not good for their brand.

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Speaker 1: They do not have a dog in this fight. It

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Speaker 1: is not their monkey's not their circus, all of those things.

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Speaker 1: And yet can you even imagine Tree pains pissed pain,

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Speaker 1: She's been organized.

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Speaker 3: She's now of course Taylor's publicser.

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Speaker 1: She is, She's an icon. I think she's my roman

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00:20:12,782 --> 00:20:16,262
Speaker 1: and part think about her all the time. What's she doing?

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Speaker 1: What's she doing? And I just imagine where she's like,

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Speaker 1: Fuck this, this is not part of our plan. What

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Speaker 1: are we going to do. We're going to unfollow.

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Speaker 4: We're going to unfollow?

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Speaker 1: Can you do this age?

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Speaker 3: Because there's no such thing as an accidental unfollow? No,

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Speaker 3: it's an active war.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe anyone that says you've been hacked.

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Speaker 3: Autism Telepathy a number one podcast and the fallout. Look,

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Speaker 3: this is a big topic and a story that has

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Speaker 3: spanned several months. But there was an article in The

434
00:20:44,942 --> 00:20:48,742
Speaker 3: Cut last week called I Can Hear thoughts. A podcast

435
00:20:48,982 --> 00:20:52,141
Speaker 3: called The Telepathy Tapes claims a group of non speaking

436
00:20:52,182 --> 00:20:55,901
Speaker 3: autistic people can read minds. The truth is more complicated.

437
00:20:56,502 --> 00:20:58,782
Speaker 3: We are going to start at the beginning. You might

438
00:20:58,861 --> 00:21:01,662
Speaker 3: remember that at the end of last year, particularly over

439
00:21:01,702 --> 00:21:06,581
Speaker 3: the summer holidays, a podcast called The Telepathy Tapes went viral.

440
00:21:06,661 --> 00:21:08,701
Speaker 3: I heard about it from out loud is yes me

441
00:21:08,782 --> 00:21:13,662
Speaker 3: too actually, and it was hosted by documentary filmmaker Ki Dickens,

442
00:21:14,061 --> 00:21:17,702
Speaker 3: and the series explored the theory that children with non

443
00:21:17,782 --> 00:21:23,061
Speaker 3: speaking autism were communicating with their parents telepathically. Hear me

444
00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:25,542
Speaker 3: out because I listened to this podcast at the time

445
00:21:25,581 --> 00:21:29,582
Speaker 3: and found parts of it really compelling. So it begins

446
00:21:29,621 --> 00:21:32,902
Speaker 3: by saying Ki Dickens says, for decades, a very specific

447
00:21:32,901 --> 00:21:36,902
Speaker 3: group of people have been claiming telepathy is happening. Nobody

448
00:21:36,901 --> 00:21:39,421
Speaker 3: has believed them, nobody has listened to them. But on

449
00:21:39,462 --> 00:21:42,502
Speaker 3: this podcast we do. And in the same way that

450
00:21:42,581 --> 00:21:46,181
Speaker 3: when someone is blind, their other senses heighten, like they

451
00:21:46,262 --> 00:21:48,782
Speaker 3: might have a furgus. It's a smell, yes, exactly right,

452
00:21:48,821 --> 00:21:53,061
Speaker 3: and that's called sensory compensation. The idea was that kids

453
00:21:53,101 --> 00:21:57,101
Speaker 3: with non speaking autism could in some cases read the

454
00:21:57,182 --> 00:22:01,581
Speaker 3: minds of their parents or teachers, and this was uncovered

455
00:22:01,621 --> 00:22:04,821
Speaker 3: in the podcast through a process called spelling. I had

456
00:22:04,861 --> 00:22:07,061
Speaker 3: never heard of this before. It is a two way

457
00:22:07,101 --> 00:22:12,581
Speaker 3: communication system whereby the non speaking child points to letters

458
00:22:12,621 --> 00:22:14,621
Speaker 3: on a board and is guided by a parent and

459
00:22:14,661 --> 00:22:16,462
Speaker 3: that makes out words, and sometimes.

460
00:22:16,061 --> 00:22:18,742
Speaker 1: The parent is holding the child's hand, or the child

461
00:22:18,782 --> 00:22:20,702
Speaker 1: is holding the parents' hand and guiding them.

462
00:22:20,661 --> 00:22:24,141
Speaker 3: And guiding them exactly right. And listening to it blew

463
00:22:24,222 --> 00:22:26,061
Speaker 3: my mind. I am open to this stuff. There were

464
00:22:26,101 --> 00:22:29,621
Speaker 3: some amazing cases of a parent opening a book or

465
00:22:29,782 --> 00:22:31,861
Speaker 3: reading a passage and the child being able to make

466
00:22:31,861 --> 00:22:33,741
Speaker 3: out what was in the book. Again, this is not

467
00:22:33,782 --> 00:22:36,861
Speaker 3: a visual medium, it's audio, So in the audio sense,

468
00:22:36,901 --> 00:22:38,582
Speaker 3: I was going, this is pretty convincing.

469
00:22:38,661 --> 00:22:41,582
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the podcast, the host did a whole lot

470
00:22:41,621 --> 00:22:45,862
Speaker 1: of experiments which she took the audience through in graphic detail,

471
00:22:46,061 --> 00:22:48,181
Speaker 1: and they were quite repetitive. So she came in with

472
00:22:48,182 --> 00:22:52,382
Speaker 1: a fairly cynical mindset. And it wasn't all just spelling.

473
00:22:52,422 --> 00:22:55,061
Speaker 1: Some of it was they'd put up a screen and

474
00:22:55,101 --> 00:22:59,262
Speaker 1: they'd show the mother a word or something, and then

475
00:22:59,422 --> 00:23:01,222
Speaker 1: the child on the other side of the screen, without

476
00:23:01,262 --> 00:23:03,502
Speaker 1: having any contact with the mother, would have to write

477
00:23:03,542 --> 00:23:06,181
Speaker 1: down or whatever what that word was exactly, And the

478
00:23:06,262 --> 00:23:09,502
Speaker 1: level of accuracy was very high in many of these cases.

479
00:23:09,661 --> 00:23:12,581
Speaker 3: So the podcast grew and grew, and now it has

480
00:23:12,581 --> 00:23:16,422
Speaker 3: amassed more than fifteen million downloads. But with that popularity

481
00:23:16,542 --> 00:23:19,461
Speaker 3: came a lot of criticism. There was a lot that

482
00:23:19,502 --> 00:23:23,462
Speaker 3: Dickens hadn't included. For example, the spelling method has been

483
00:23:23,702 --> 00:23:27,901
Speaker 3: routinely disproven, and that is because if especially if it's

484
00:23:27,942 --> 00:23:32,022
Speaker 3: a parent and a non speaking autistic child, there's unconscious

485
00:23:32,061 --> 00:23:35,462
Speaker 3: cues literally unconscious. They have no idea that they're making them,

486
00:23:35,621 --> 00:23:38,821
Speaker 3: but they can queue that. Oh yeah, you're getting the

487
00:23:38,821 --> 00:23:42,862
Speaker 3: word dog right. These kids are especially good at that.

488
00:23:42,982 --> 00:23:46,581
Speaker 1: So almost like predictive text, but it's like the parent predicting.

489
00:23:46,302 --> 00:23:49,222
Speaker 3: Exactly, so spelling. Lots of criticism that it really didn't

490
00:23:49,222 --> 00:23:52,861
Speaker 3: go into. And the second really big criticism was that

491
00:23:52,901 --> 00:23:55,061
Speaker 3: it fell into a trope. And this is a term

492
00:23:55,101 --> 00:23:58,661
Speaker 3: that a lot of disability advocates use called super crip,

493
00:23:58,982 --> 00:24:01,341
Speaker 3: and it is a term that describes a tendency we

494
00:24:01,462 --> 00:24:05,221
Speaker 3: have to present a disabled person as having extraordinary or

495
00:24:05,262 --> 00:24:09,461
Speaker 3: magical abilities that makes them worthwhile, So think like rain Men.

496
00:24:10,542 --> 00:24:14,781
Speaker 3: Since its release, Dickens has been offered documentary deals. All

497
00:24:14,861 --> 00:24:17,382
Speaker 3: the studios that said no to her original idea now

498
00:24:17,422 --> 00:24:21,941
Speaker 3: saying yes. But instead she's crowdfunding for an independent second season.

499
00:24:23,262 --> 00:24:26,262
Speaker 3: So there's magic, spirituality, the metaphysical, whatever you want to

500
00:24:26,262 --> 00:24:30,622
Speaker 3: call it. Are these conversations worth having or can they

501
00:24:30,661 --> 00:24:33,581
Speaker 3: do more harm than good Holly?

502
00:24:34,022 --> 00:24:36,621
Speaker 2: It's so complicated because one of the things that really

503
00:24:36,661 --> 00:24:39,982
Speaker 2: comes through, both in the podcast and in the writing

504
00:24:39,982 --> 00:24:43,262
Speaker 2: about the podcast when they're talking about these families is

505
00:24:43,302 --> 00:24:47,382
Speaker 2: that these are very often parents who are in impossibly

506
00:24:47,422 --> 00:24:52,542
Speaker 2: difficult circumstances. It is incredibly difficult work to be looking

507
00:24:52,542 --> 00:24:58,742
Speaker 2: after a child with severe disabilities and nonverbal, sometimes violent,

508
00:24:59,502 --> 00:25:03,942
Speaker 2: very difficult to predict control. A lot of the ideas

509
00:25:04,061 --> 00:25:07,022
Speaker 2: of you know, the milestones and the life that you

510
00:25:07,101 --> 00:25:13,502
Speaker 2: might have had together is derailed, and carers they're being

511
00:25:13,621 --> 00:25:18,061
Speaker 2: asked every day to be entirely selfless, like entirely selfless,

512
00:25:18,061 --> 00:25:21,341
Speaker 2: and the intensity often of that bond between the carer

513
00:25:21,462 --> 00:25:23,821
Speaker 2: and the child. To your point Jesse about whether or

514
00:25:23,821 --> 00:25:27,462
Speaker 2: not the spelling you know it's not intentional, but there

515
00:25:27,502 --> 00:25:30,901
Speaker 2: is almost a telepathy between those two is not surprising either.

516
00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:34,302
Speaker 2: So the idea that the parents are the ones who've

517
00:25:34,302 --> 00:25:37,982
Speaker 2: been saying, there's something special about my child and people

518
00:25:38,022 --> 00:25:41,581
Speaker 2: need to understand it. There's something otherworldly about my child.

519
00:25:41,661 --> 00:25:45,262
Speaker 2: We can communicate in ways that you don't understand. I

520
00:25:45,341 --> 00:25:49,422
Speaker 2: have a lot of empathy and sympathy for right because

521
00:25:50,422 --> 00:25:54,542
Speaker 2: the general able world looks at people with very severe

522
00:25:54,581 --> 00:25:57,181
Speaker 2: disability and does like to be really brutal about it.

523
00:25:57,222 --> 00:26:00,341
Speaker 2: They question, what's the point of that? You know what

524
00:26:00,341 --> 00:26:03,221
Speaker 2: I mean? To your point before about the problem with

525
00:26:03,381 --> 00:26:07,262
Speaker 2: the magical myth is that somehow we need to be

526
00:26:07,381 --> 00:26:11,742
Speaker 2: validating why people are sure, or why people are interesting,

527
00:26:11,821 --> 00:26:15,101
Speaker 2: or why people even deigned to exist you know and matter,

528
00:26:15,581 --> 00:26:18,901
Speaker 2: So I have so much sympathy for that. I don't

529
00:26:18,901 --> 00:26:20,581
Speaker 2: think I can answer the question of whether or not

530
00:26:20,581 --> 00:26:23,302
Speaker 2: I think these conversations should be had. Because am I

531
00:26:23,422 --> 00:26:26,542
Speaker 2: glad that those families got to tell their stories. We

532
00:26:26,581 --> 00:26:30,141
Speaker 2: all learned something about their children. Yeah, I am. I

533
00:26:30,141 --> 00:26:33,222
Speaker 2: don't know that. I think it's entirely regrettable, But then

534
00:26:33,262 --> 00:26:36,221
Speaker 2: I'm not informed enough about the other side of this

535
00:26:36,302 --> 00:26:39,101
Speaker 2: conversation to be able to say, oh, yes, it's definitely damaging.

536
00:26:39,302 --> 00:26:41,502
Speaker 3: There was a quote in I think it was actually

537
00:26:41,542 --> 00:26:43,502
Speaker 3: in the podcast, but it's in the cut article where

538
00:26:43,661 --> 00:26:46,502
Speaker 3: a mother says, I was asking myself was he even

539
00:26:46,542 --> 00:26:46,902
Speaker 3: in there?

540
00:26:47,302 --> 00:26:47,462
Speaker 5: Right?

541
00:26:47,581 --> 00:26:51,302
Speaker 3: Because if you've got a child who cannot speak, who

542
00:26:51,302 --> 00:26:53,902
Speaker 3: cannot say I love you, who cannot.

543
00:26:54,621 --> 00:26:56,982
Speaker 4: What they want, their desires.

544
00:26:56,661 --> 00:26:58,742
Speaker 2: And that child was sort of six foot tall and

545
00:26:59,101 --> 00:27:01,621
Speaker 2: two hundred pounds and is a human and now not

546
00:27:01,782 --> 00:27:04,941
Speaker 2: a child in your life who your entire life is

547
00:27:04,982 --> 00:27:08,862
Speaker 2: oriented around their needs and caring for them, she knows

548
00:27:08,901 --> 00:27:10,262
Speaker 2: him better than any one in the world.

549
00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:13,302
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have no doubt that they have a

550
00:27:13,422 --> 00:27:17,982
Speaker 3: method of understanding one another that maybe you or I

551
00:27:18,022 --> 00:27:19,101
Speaker 3: couldn't understand.

552
00:27:19,141 --> 00:27:20,942
Speaker 4: And I think they're basically mean there are things.

553
00:27:20,702 --> 00:27:24,422
Speaker 1: That you can't explain, you know, bonds between parents and children,

554
00:27:24,742 --> 00:27:28,662
Speaker 1: or between siblings or between twins. I don't think everything

555
00:27:28,702 --> 00:27:32,381
Speaker 1: can necessarily be proven scientifically, And I guess I'd have

556
00:27:32,422 --> 00:27:34,941
Speaker 1: to ask what's the harm in it? Like, does it

557
00:27:34,982 --> 00:27:39,302
Speaker 1: even matter whether it's able to be proven or not proven.

558
00:27:40,222 --> 00:27:42,702
Speaker 1: I just don't see the harm. And if it brings

559
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:47,701
Speaker 1: some comfort or some utility to the people involved, what

560
00:27:47,742 --> 00:27:49,222
Speaker 1: does it matter what any of us think?

561
00:27:49,341 --> 00:27:52,941
Speaker 3: So the critics would say that it contributes to an

562
00:27:52,982 --> 00:27:56,901
Speaker 3: othering of going. These people are other, they are not

563
00:27:57,101 --> 00:28:02,782
Speaker 3: like us. We're kind of projecting this magical, almost monstrous

564
00:28:03,262 --> 00:28:04,262
Speaker 3: thing on them, which.

565
00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,941
Speaker 1: But is it monstrous or is it elevating their status?

566
00:28:06,982 --> 00:28:11,222
Speaker 1: Because people with disabilities are among the lowest status, most

567
00:28:11,341 --> 00:28:16,261
Speaker 1: vulnerable people in our community. And by saying no, what

568
00:28:16,341 --> 00:28:19,902
Speaker 1: you see on the outside, there's more going on, doesn't that,

569
00:28:20,141 --> 00:28:22,701
Speaker 1: if anything, elevate their status.

570
00:28:22,182 --> 00:28:24,542
Speaker 3: At the other extreme, And this is in the cart

571
00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:29,821
Speaker 3: article is false accusations like they've had instances of spelling

572
00:28:30,422 --> 00:28:34,901
Speaker 3: where they believe that they have elicited some sort of

573
00:28:35,742 --> 00:28:39,742
Speaker 3: disclosure about an allegation that they've then gone Has this

574
00:28:39,902 --> 00:28:44,102
Speaker 3: been reinforced by the person who is helping them. Spell

575
00:28:44,661 --> 00:28:48,542
Speaker 3: are we projecting what this person wants? And is there

576
00:28:48,542 --> 00:28:50,741
Speaker 3: then going to be an investment and a focus on

577
00:28:50,782 --> 00:28:55,422
Speaker 3: a method of communication that maybe doesn't work and if

578
00:28:55,462 --> 00:28:58,342
Speaker 3: it doesn't work, And I think that anyone who knows

579
00:28:58,382 --> 00:29:02,461
Speaker 3: anything about the NDIS and disability support knows that the

580
00:29:02,502 --> 00:29:05,502
Speaker 3: resources and the time are finite. You also don't want

581
00:29:05,502 --> 00:29:08,342
Speaker 3: to give families false hope or make someone feel like

582
00:29:08,342 --> 00:29:11,022
Speaker 3: if your child can't do this, there's something wrong with

583
00:29:11,062 --> 00:29:13,741
Speaker 3: that child. And so I can sort of see that.

584
00:29:13,902 --> 00:29:17,382
Speaker 3: But listening to these parents, I thought, in terms of

585
00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:21,302
Speaker 3: status and who we listen to, do we listen to

586
00:29:21,302 --> 00:29:24,542
Speaker 3: anyone less than the parent of a child with autism?

587
00:29:24,982 --> 00:29:30,941
Speaker 3: We don't afford them a platform. And there would be moments,

588
00:29:30,982 --> 00:29:33,902
Speaker 3: there would be so much that we can learn about

589
00:29:34,622 --> 00:29:38,462
Speaker 3: humanity and connection through these people that has otherwise been

590
00:29:39,142 --> 00:29:43,502
Speaker 3: totally erased. And I do think that if you are

591
00:29:44,422 --> 00:29:47,701
Speaker 3: non speaking, your brain would be working differently in a

592
00:29:47,742 --> 00:29:52,342
Speaker 3: way that I find absolutely fascinating. I wished when I

593
00:29:52,462 --> 00:29:54,262
Speaker 3: was listening to all of this, I wish that my

594
00:29:54,302 --> 00:29:56,662
Speaker 3: grandmother was around who raised a child with a disability,

595
00:29:56,661 --> 00:30:01,782
Speaker 3: and then a grandchild and had the most remarkable relationships

596
00:30:01,782 --> 00:30:05,021
Speaker 3: with both of them. And I can see with my cousin,

597
00:30:05,262 --> 00:30:07,102
Speaker 3: I can see how the world sees him as someone

598
00:30:07,142 --> 00:30:10,902
Speaker 3: with an intellectual disability who can't read or write, can't

599
00:30:10,902 --> 00:30:13,421
Speaker 3: write his own name. There are things he can do

600
00:30:13,502 --> 00:30:15,382
Speaker 3: that I will never be able to do. And you know,

601
00:30:15,462 --> 00:30:18,222
Speaker 3: sometimes we laugh about being able to recite an entire

602
00:30:18,262 --> 00:30:19,822
Speaker 3: train line. He can get on a train and end

603
00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:22,782
Speaker 3: up exactly where, like sense of direction, that sort of stuff,

604
00:30:23,222 --> 00:30:26,182
Speaker 3: And I think people who love people with disabilities want

605
00:30:26,182 --> 00:30:27,022
Speaker 3: the world to know about that.

606
00:30:28,182 --> 00:30:31,422
Speaker 2: After the break globe stopping carb news from the High

607
00:30:31,422 --> 00:30:33,701
Speaker 2: Priestess Gwyneth Paltrow.

608
00:30:34,022 --> 00:30:36,742
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mom

609
00:30:36,782 --> 00:30:38,582
Speaker 1: and Me are Out Loud just for Mamma and Me

610
00:30:38,702 --> 00:30:41,221
Speaker 1: as subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to

611
00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:43,542
Speaker 1: get your daily dose of out Loud and a big

612
00:30:43,582 --> 00:30:54,462
Speaker 1: thank you to everyone who is already subscribed. Megan the

613
00:30:54,542 --> 00:30:57,701
Speaker 1: Duchess of Jam has done her first long form podcast

614
00:30:57,782 --> 00:31:02,181
Speaker 1: interview on someone Else's show. Now it's a little bit

615
00:31:02,222 --> 00:31:04,981
Speaker 1: of a spurious claim to make because she's now hosting

616
00:31:05,022 --> 00:31:08,661
Speaker 1: her second podcast. She's done a lot of podcasting, but

617
00:31:08,782 --> 00:31:11,582
Speaker 1: now she's on the other side of the microphone a

618
00:31:11,622 --> 00:31:14,661
Speaker 1: woman called Jamie Kernlema, who I hadn't heard of, but

619
00:31:14,782 --> 00:31:19,302
Speaker 1: turns out she was the founder of it Cosmetics.

620
00:31:18,902 --> 00:31:20,822
Speaker 4: Great Great Foundation, Great Foundations.

621
00:31:20,862 --> 00:31:23,462
Speaker 1: She then sold that for many millions or hundreds of

622
00:31:23,462 --> 00:31:27,181
Speaker 1: millions of dollars to Loreal. And she lives next door

623
00:31:27,222 --> 00:31:31,262
Speaker 1: to Meghan and Harry in Montecito. So she has a

624
00:31:31,302 --> 00:31:35,622
Speaker 1: podcast and it's kind of woo woo. It's very you know, American,

625
00:31:35,902 --> 00:31:40,102
Speaker 1: sort of earnest. And the podcast interview she's done with Meghan,

626
00:31:40,222 --> 00:31:43,021
Speaker 1: her friend. They took a lot about their friendships. It's

627
00:31:43,062 --> 00:31:46,261
Speaker 1: a rich text for discussion at another time. But this

628
00:31:46,342 --> 00:31:50,421
Speaker 1: piece of parenting advice has particularly excited everyone, and I

629
00:31:50,462 --> 00:31:52,582
Speaker 1: need to play it for your reactions.

630
00:31:52,982 --> 00:31:56,261
Speaker 6: And so I'd created for the kids these email addresses

631
00:31:56,661 --> 00:31:59,421
Speaker 6: that names again that you would never guess, that I

632
00:31:59,462 --> 00:32:01,142
Speaker 6: will give them at some point in their lives when

633
00:32:01,142 --> 00:32:04,022
Speaker 6: they're older. But before I got ABD, almost every night

634
00:32:04,502 --> 00:32:07,421
Speaker 6: I email them. Wow, I email because it doesn't have

635
00:32:07,462 --> 00:32:09,342
Speaker 6: to be a heavy left and you email them like,

636
00:32:10,262 --> 00:32:12,102
Speaker 6: here's a report card from today, Oh my gosh, she

637
00:32:12,142 --> 00:32:14,342
Speaker 6: said the funniest thing this morning. Or here's a picture

638
00:32:14,382 --> 00:32:16,941
Speaker 6: of you two having breakfast, or here's you playing with

639
00:32:16,982 --> 00:32:19,742
Speaker 6: the things that you're not going to frame, the things

640
00:32:19,742 --> 00:32:21,302
Speaker 6: that you're not going to put pen to people in

641
00:32:21,702 --> 00:32:24,542
Speaker 6: a journal. But they will end up at one point

642
00:32:24,542 --> 00:32:26,862
Speaker 6: in their life, maybe when they're sixteen or when they're eighteen,

643
00:32:27,142 --> 00:32:29,382
Speaker 6: that I say, here's an email that I've been keeping

644
00:32:29,422 --> 00:32:29,782
Speaker 6: for you.

645
00:32:30,022 --> 00:32:31,542
Speaker 2: I have full body chills right now.

646
00:32:31,661 --> 00:32:34,982
Speaker 1: I have a question, Jesse, if you got full body chills.

647
00:32:35,502 --> 00:32:38,701
Speaker 3: That is so lovely that Megan does that for her

648
00:32:38,702 --> 00:32:43,702
Speaker 3: two children. I, like Megan, had the very best of intentions.

649
00:32:43,902 --> 00:32:48,382
Speaker 3: And when Luna was maybe six weeks old, and I

650
00:32:48,382 --> 00:32:54,022
Speaker 3: would still certifiably omnal in a very strange place, I

651
00:32:54,062 --> 00:32:56,782
Speaker 3: set up an email address for little Luna and I

652
00:32:56,822 --> 00:33:01,102
Speaker 3: wrote her an email about how she is God.

653
00:33:02,502 --> 00:33:05,382
Speaker 2: Yes, of course is the.

654
00:33:05,302 --> 00:33:09,462
Speaker 3: Best thing, and she is so loved and I don't

655
00:33:09,462 --> 00:33:11,542
Speaker 3: know coherent, I don't think it makes sense. But I

656
00:33:11,582 --> 00:33:13,662
Speaker 3: sent her that email because I was going to send

657
00:33:13,661 --> 00:33:15,941
Speaker 3: her an email every week about.

658
00:33:15,702 --> 00:33:17,982
Speaker 4: All the little things, only every week, only every week.

659
00:33:18,222 --> 00:33:19,742
Speaker 4: I'm not like Megan Dragon the chain.

660
00:33:20,462 --> 00:33:24,181
Speaker 3: And then this strange thing happened where I went back

661
00:33:24,182 --> 00:33:28,342
Speaker 3: to work and that email address.

662
00:33:28,302 --> 00:33:30,622
Speaker 4: I couldn't tell you what it is. I couldn't tell

663
00:33:30,622 --> 00:33:33,261
Speaker 4: you how to log in, could not be any of that.

664
00:33:33,582 --> 00:33:37,022
Speaker 3: And then for her first birthday, I got a scrapbook

665
00:33:37,382 --> 00:33:38,982
Speaker 3: because we didn't do anything. We didn't have a party

666
00:33:39,022 --> 00:33:41,942
Speaker 3: or anything, and I went, everyone should write a message

667
00:33:42,062 --> 00:33:46,062
Speaker 3: about something like a funny lunar story, or like, you know,

668
00:33:46,182 --> 00:33:48,862
Speaker 3: the memory that we'll never remember. And so I got

669
00:33:48,862 --> 00:33:50,902
Speaker 3: everyone to write, and I got these markers and I didn't.

670
00:33:51,822 --> 00:33:54,662
Speaker 4: Maya wrote in it. I don't know if anyone else did.

671
00:33:56,062 --> 00:33:56,862
Speaker 1: No one else did.

672
00:33:57,022 --> 00:33:58,342
Speaker 4: Well, I've got good news about that.

673
00:33:58,542 --> 00:34:02,342
Speaker 3: I think Luca threw it out because I can't find it.

674
00:34:03,422 --> 00:34:07,102
Speaker 2: I have questions, one big question. When Lily, bet or

675
00:34:07,222 --> 00:34:10,702
Speaker 2: Archie or any of these precious chi children turn eighteen

676
00:34:10,742 --> 00:34:14,222
Speaker 2: and are presented with perhaps a print out, who knows

677
00:34:14,262 --> 00:34:19,462
Speaker 2: of all the emails every day for eighteen years of

678
00:34:19,582 --> 00:34:22,662
Speaker 2: things that Mum thought that were really exciting and cute

679
00:34:22,701 --> 00:34:25,022
Speaker 2: that we did. That time we shoved a piece of

680
00:34:25,102 --> 00:34:27,941
Speaker 2: lego upon nose, that time we kicked down in.

681
00:34:27,902 --> 00:34:29,182
Speaker 1: The balls, that time.

682
00:34:29,422 --> 00:34:32,142
Speaker 2: You know, like, what do you do with all that?

683
00:34:32,582 --> 00:34:33,542
Speaker 2: What do you do with it?

684
00:34:33,902 --> 00:34:34,142
Speaker 5: Yeah?

685
00:34:34,302 --> 00:34:36,382
Speaker 4: I think there's such thing as too many memories.

686
00:34:36,422 --> 00:34:39,261
Speaker 2: And then the other question I have is are we

687
00:34:39,422 --> 00:34:44,661
Speaker 2: surprised that there is a generation of young people who

688
00:34:44,661 --> 00:34:49,781
Speaker 2: will not take direction from their bosses? Like I've got

689
00:34:50,142 --> 00:34:52,622
Speaker 2: eighteen years of emails telling me that I'm the most

690
00:34:52,661 --> 00:34:57,462
Speaker 2: special little snowflake that ever existed in the entire universe,

691
00:34:57,502 --> 00:35:03,902
Speaker 2: and that every utterance out of my mouth is genius, creative, beautiful,

692
00:35:03,942 --> 00:35:05,102
Speaker 2: like to precious moment?

693
00:35:07,102 --> 00:35:10,382
Speaker 4: Are you sending me an email with all my cute

694
00:35:10,582 --> 00:35:11,262
Speaker 4: little quirks?

695
00:35:11,342 --> 00:35:12,142
Speaker 2: I always appreciation.

696
00:35:12,181 --> 00:35:14,221
Speaker 1: She loved the part where she said, it's not the

697
00:35:14,221 --> 00:35:17,302
Speaker 1: stuff that you'd put in your journals, So you're already journalist.

698
00:35:17,701 --> 00:35:19,022
Speaker 2: And putting things in frames.

699
00:35:19,062 --> 00:35:22,622
Speaker 1: So we're writing the three every night, one to yourself

700
00:35:23,902 --> 00:35:27,502
Speaker 1: and one to each of her children. Is a lot

701
00:35:27,582 --> 00:35:28,102
Speaker 1: going on.

702
00:35:29,982 --> 00:35:30,821
Speaker 2: The mental load.

703
00:35:31,181 --> 00:35:33,821
Speaker 3: Just why people aren't having children. Sorry, it's why we're

704
00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:35,942
Speaker 3: not having children. Too many emails, too much.

705
00:35:36,462 --> 00:35:38,502
Speaker 2: I just need to make it clear that whenever you

706
00:35:38,661 --> 00:35:40,901
Speaker 2: listen to Megan lately, and because she's on so many things,

707
00:35:40,902 --> 00:35:42,941
Speaker 2: I've been listened to her a lot. No one has

708
00:35:42,982 --> 00:35:45,262
Speaker 2: loved the identity you of new mum more than Megan.

709
00:35:45,382 --> 00:35:49,181
Speaker 2: She is loving it, and I get it She's ain't

710
00:35:49,221 --> 00:35:51,462
Speaker 2: that new, but but you know she loves being a

711
00:35:51,502 --> 00:35:55,222
Speaker 2: toddler mom, a school mom. The school she she loves, loves,

712
00:35:55,261 --> 00:35:59,702
Speaker 2: loves it. While we're talking about my favorite Perfect Humans,

713
00:35:59,741 --> 00:36:02,942
Speaker 2: best friends and dream Brunch companions, there has been news

714
00:36:03,261 --> 00:36:06,661
Speaker 2: in Gwyneth pultrow Land that we need to discuss. You

715
00:36:06,741 --> 00:36:10,421
Speaker 2: might have seen it because it made headlines everywhere from

716
00:36:10,462 --> 00:36:14,781
Speaker 2: news dot com to the esteemed BBC. The news is

717
00:36:14,822 --> 00:36:20,181
Speaker 2: that Gwyneth is sometimes sometimes eating carbs.

718
00:36:21,022 --> 00:36:21,462
Speaker 1: I know.

719
00:36:22,062 --> 00:36:24,502
Speaker 2: This is what she said on her podcast Goop in

720
00:36:24,542 --> 00:36:27,382
Speaker 2: an episode called for the Love of Food.

721
00:36:27,822 --> 00:36:31,102
Speaker 7: It's the reason Brad and I became paleo a few

722
00:36:31,181 --> 00:36:34,502
Speaker 7: years ago now, although I'm a little sick of it,

723
00:36:34,622 --> 00:36:38,301
Speaker 7: if I'm honest, and getting back into eating some sour

724
00:36:38,422 --> 00:36:42,902
Speaker 7: dilk bread and some cheese. There I said it, a

725
00:36:42,902 --> 00:36:47,822
Speaker 7: little pasta after being strict with it for so long.

726
00:36:48,221 --> 00:36:53,702
Speaker 2: There I said it. I said it, I ate cheese sometimes. Okay,

727
00:36:54,661 --> 00:36:59,542
Speaker 2: a little bit of context. I'm just feeling so giggly

728
00:36:59,582 --> 00:37:02,822
Speaker 2: because after Megan and then Gwynneth, it's just a whisper.

729
00:37:06,781 --> 00:37:09,502
Speaker 3: I imagine a little bit of pasta like toyar two pieces,

730
00:37:09,741 --> 00:37:12,622
Speaker 3: like you either have a bowl of pasta that's bigger

731
00:37:12,622 --> 00:37:13,102
Speaker 3: than your face.

732
00:37:13,102 --> 00:37:15,062
Speaker 4: So you don't have between.

733
00:37:15,142 --> 00:37:18,542
Speaker 2: Come on now some context. Gwyneth was talking for thirty

734
00:37:18,582 --> 00:37:21,981
Speaker 2: six minutes about her relationship with food. She talked about

735
00:37:21,982 --> 00:37:23,622
Speaker 2: how she's always been a foodie. She did all the

736
00:37:23,701 --> 00:37:26,142
Speaker 2: usual drinking and smoking and coffee years, and then when

737
00:37:26,142 --> 00:37:29,102
Speaker 2: her father became ill with throat cancer in her mid twenties,

738
00:37:29,142 --> 00:37:35,022
Speaker 2: she became obsessed with food as medicine. She became hardcore macrobiotic,

739
00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:37,742
Speaker 2: which is the first time I'd ever heard the word macrobiotic,

740
00:37:37,822 --> 00:37:40,062
Speaker 2: because she and Madonna were bestie to remember this era

741
00:37:40,221 --> 00:37:45,781
Speaker 2: mean macrobiotic exactly. She and Madonna and Tracy Anderson the

742
00:37:45,822 --> 00:37:48,502
Speaker 2: Trainer were always tripping around London with their yoga mats,

743
00:37:48,502 --> 00:37:50,902
Speaker 2: and every story about any event they went to was

744
00:37:50,942 --> 00:37:52,502
Speaker 2: always like they wouldn't need it, they had to have

745
00:37:52,542 --> 00:37:55,582
Speaker 2: their browin rise and their lentils blah blah blah. Anyway, then,

746
00:37:55,622 --> 00:37:57,381
Speaker 2: as we all know, she went on, she created goops,

747
00:37:57,422 --> 00:37:59,582
Speaker 2: she wrote cookbooks, and she's gone through phases of saying

748
00:37:59,582 --> 00:38:03,262
Speaker 2: she's loosened up. But in this chat she was saying

749
00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:07,382
Speaker 2: that she and Brad had been mostly paleo for years,

750
00:38:07,422 --> 00:38:09,982
Speaker 2: and paleo if you don't know, God bless you.

751
00:38:09,982 --> 00:38:10,582
Speaker 1: If you don't know.

752
00:38:10,741 --> 00:38:11,301
Speaker 4: I don't know.

753
00:38:11,542 --> 00:38:15,622
Speaker 2: It's about protein, no carbs, and an obsession with everything

754
00:38:15,701 --> 00:38:17,462
Speaker 2: being clean in inverted commerce.

755
00:38:17,661 --> 00:38:20,542
Speaker 4: So no Eminem's definitely no Eminem's.

756
00:38:21,422 --> 00:38:24,902
Speaker 2: Come on, Jesse Mia, I know you have thoughts on

757
00:38:24,942 --> 00:38:27,821
Speaker 2: the impact Gwyneth and other people like when it's food

758
00:38:27,862 --> 00:38:31,502
Speaker 2: conversations have on women. Do you think that famous women

759
00:38:31,661 --> 00:38:34,462
Speaker 2: should just shut the f up about what they're eating

760
00:38:34,462 --> 00:38:35,382
Speaker 2: and what they're not eating.

761
00:38:35,582 --> 00:38:37,582
Speaker 1: Everyone can say what they want, but I think what's

762
00:38:37,622 --> 00:38:42,542
Speaker 1: important to remember always is the subtext, which is that

763
00:38:43,022 --> 00:38:47,181
Speaker 1: famous women have more pressure to conform to beauty standards

764
00:38:47,181 --> 00:38:51,342
Speaker 1: than probably any other women, and that means a life

765
00:38:51,542 --> 00:38:55,942
Speaker 1: of restricted eating. And sometimes that restricted eating has a

766
00:38:56,022 --> 00:39:00,942
Speaker 1: name like paleo or epkins or gluten free. I know

767
00:39:00,982 --> 00:39:03,181
Speaker 1: that there are some people who are legitimately gluten free,

768
00:39:03,422 --> 00:39:06,542
Speaker 1: but I also know from speaking to eating disorders experts

769
00:39:07,142 --> 00:39:10,301
Speaker 1: that often you don't say you're on a diet, you

770
00:39:10,302 --> 00:39:13,742
Speaker 1: don't say you're restricting, but you start becoming a vegan

771
00:39:13,822 --> 00:39:18,741
Speaker 1: or you start cutting out clean, restricting things. Having said that,

772
00:39:18,942 --> 00:39:21,982
Speaker 1: I really can see that connection, and I thought that

773
00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:24,982
Speaker 1: was interesting that she's I think she even used the

774
00:39:24,982 --> 00:39:28,862
Speaker 1: word of thorexia, which is that idea of when clean

775
00:39:29,062 --> 00:39:33,222
Speaker 1: eating becomes an obsession and a way to really justify

776
00:39:33,382 --> 00:39:37,461
Speaker 1: extreme restriction, and it's an eating disorder dressed up as

777
00:39:37,982 --> 00:39:41,862
Speaker 1: a healthy activity. And you can see that she felt

778
00:39:41,862 --> 00:39:43,502
Speaker 1: like her life was out of control. She was at

779
00:39:43,502 --> 00:39:45,302
Speaker 1: the height of her fame. She just went an oscar.

780
00:39:45,942 --> 00:39:49,461
Speaker 1: Her father was dying. He'd been a smoker and had

781
00:39:49,462 --> 00:39:50,982
Speaker 1: not been a bastion of health.

782
00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:52,942
Speaker 2: And she says he loved food right going out to

783
00:39:52,982 --> 00:39:54,381
Speaker 2: den his favorite thing to do.

784
00:39:54,781 --> 00:39:57,502
Speaker 1: So the idea that there could be an answer, and

785
00:39:57,542 --> 00:40:00,701
Speaker 1: that somehow she could control and help not just him,

786
00:40:00,741 --> 00:40:02,781
Speaker 1: but also everyone else in her family so that she

787
00:40:02,822 --> 00:40:06,062
Speaker 1: didn't lose anyone else. I can see this idea of

788
00:40:06,102 --> 00:40:08,582
Speaker 1: food as medicine can be a slippery slope, and I

789
00:40:08,582 --> 00:40:11,982
Speaker 1: think it can be very deductive. But I think the

790
00:40:12,022 --> 00:40:15,821
Speaker 1: subtext to all of this is skinny. And I think

791
00:40:15,822 --> 00:40:19,062
Speaker 1: that you've got gen X women who grew up in

792
00:40:19,221 --> 00:40:22,781
Speaker 1: the absolute center of diet culture. You know, from the

793
00:40:22,781 --> 00:40:26,982
Speaker 1: supermodels to heroin Chic to grunge to all of that.

794
00:40:27,701 --> 00:40:31,222
Speaker 1: It was very much about restricted eating. And I think

795
00:40:31,261 --> 00:40:34,582
Speaker 1: that whether you dress it up as not eating sugar

796
00:40:34,741 --> 00:40:38,862
Speaker 1: or all of these things, the underlying subtext is skinny.

797
00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:43,502
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I don't think it's possible to unscramble

798
00:40:44,181 --> 00:40:49,102
Speaker 3: someone sharing what they eat in a day, or sharing

799
00:40:49,181 --> 00:40:53,741
Speaker 3: their diet or whatever from being instructive. The instruction is

800
00:40:53,781 --> 00:40:57,701
Speaker 3: in the way your body looks, whether or not you.

801
00:40:57,181 --> 00:40:59,501
Speaker 1: Yes, So you're saying that Gwyneth's saying what she eats

802
00:40:59,661 --> 00:41:01,701
Speaker 1: is really just about us listening so that we can

803
00:41:01,741 --> 00:41:03,261
Speaker 1: eat like her, so we can look like her.

804
00:41:03,302 --> 00:41:05,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's why I think the question is a trap.

805
00:41:05,382 --> 00:41:07,781
Speaker 3: And we've talked about it on this show before, and

806
00:41:07,781 --> 00:41:10,462
Speaker 3: in fact, we did a subscriber episode where we spoke

807
00:41:10,502 --> 00:41:12,221
Speaker 3: about that and we talked about down a plate and

808
00:41:12,261 --> 00:41:15,142
Speaker 3: I refused. I was like, I am not saying what

809
00:41:15,181 --> 00:41:19,142
Speaker 3: I ate because I'm presenting it as something whether I

810
00:41:19,181 --> 00:41:20,942
Speaker 3: want to or not, instructive when I don't think it

811
00:41:20,982 --> 00:41:21,542
Speaker 3: is instructing.

812
00:41:21,582 --> 00:41:25,741
Speaker 2: I think that's really sad because I love food and

813
00:41:25,862 --> 00:41:28,902
Speaker 2: I could talk about food for one hundred years. I

814
00:41:29,582 --> 00:41:31,862
Speaker 2: could out rest, and I don't like the I agree

815
00:41:31,902 --> 00:41:33,861
Speaker 2: very much with what you're both saying. This is very

816
00:41:33,862 --> 00:41:37,941
Speaker 2: complicated territory, but the idea that women can only talk

817
00:41:37,982 --> 00:41:40,462
Speaker 2: about food and it's about what they look like isn't true,

818
00:41:40,542 --> 00:41:42,461
Speaker 2: like lots of women get an enormous amount of joy

819
00:41:42,462 --> 00:41:45,022
Speaker 2: out of FID. I think you can comfort and guilt

820
00:41:45,142 --> 00:41:50,062
Speaker 2: and shame. But also what's interesting to me is, well,

821
00:41:50,102 --> 00:41:52,542
Speaker 2: you're definitely right me or about the fact that this

822
00:41:52,781 --> 00:41:55,582
Speaker 2: was the apex of diet culture. But the other piece

823
00:41:55,622 --> 00:41:58,422
Speaker 2: to this is that a lot of women who have

824
00:41:58,542 --> 00:42:03,062
Speaker 2: this complicated pleasure pain relationship with food, and most women

825
00:42:03,142 --> 00:42:05,381
Speaker 2: I know restrict what they in some way. I don't

826
00:42:05,382 --> 00:42:07,382
Speaker 2: mean in a serious way, but I mean in terms

827
00:42:07,382 --> 00:42:10,261
Speaker 2: of if I eat that cake now, eating that like

828
00:42:10,422 --> 00:42:12,901
Speaker 2: most women do, like they just do, and I quite

829
00:42:12,942 --> 00:42:14,301
Speaker 2: like it when they're honest about it. I feel a

830
00:42:14,302 --> 00:42:16,782
Speaker 2: little bit like that the way you do about botox,

831
00:42:17,062 --> 00:42:18,582
Speaker 2: Like tell me you've had it, don't tell me you

832
00:42:18,582 --> 00:42:21,942
Speaker 2: haven't had it. I can't bear it when tiny skinny

833
00:42:21,942 --> 00:42:24,102
Speaker 2: celebrities are like I hate burgers, I'm like, no, you don't.

834
00:42:24,142 --> 00:42:26,861
Speaker 1: Did you notice that in Megan's show that subtext of

835
00:42:26,902 --> 00:42:29,902
Speaker 1: diet culture where not necessarily from her, but sometimes and

836
00:42:29,942 --> 00:42:32,462
Speaker 1: from her guess there was often oh, we've been for

837
00:42:32,502 --> 00:42:35,221
Speaker 1: a hike, so we can have the cake, or I've

838
00:42:35,261 --> 00:42:36,582
Speaker 1: been good today so.

839
00:42:36,822 --> 00:42:38,861
Speaker 2: Well, And also they weren't saying that, but they were

840
00:42:38,862 --> 00:42:41,422
Speaker 2: eating a lot of carbs that you actually just know

841
00:42:41,741 --> 00:42:45,221
Speaker 2: if you know anything about this a la world, they

842
00:42:45,302 --> 00:42:48,102
Speaker 2: are not eating carbs, which is why this made headlines.

843
00:42:48,302 --> 00:42:50,902
Speaker 2: But the other piece of this, it isn't all about skinny.

844
00:42:50,942 --> 00:42:54,981
Speaker 2: It is partly about health too, because women, many many

845
00:42:55,022 --> 00:42:59,142
Speaker 2: women live with this kind of general feeling of ick right,

846
00:42:59,342 --> 00:43:02,542
Speaker 2: like something's not right, something's not right. If I ate better,

847
00:43:02,701 --> 00:43:05,742
Speaker 2: if I did this more. And some of that is true.

848
00:43:06,221 --> 00:43:08,582
Speaker 2: A lot of processed food is making a lot of

849
00:43:08,622 --> 00:43:11,981
Speaker 2: people very sick. If you eat more healthily, you will

850
00:43:12,022 --> 00:43:15,861
Speaker 2: probably feel better. Like like everything, there is truth to it,

851
00:43:16,422 --> 00:43:18,741
Speaker 2: but when it's dressed up as high status. And it

852
00:43:18,781 --> 00:43:22,022
Speaker 2: also let's not pretend that eating like this isn't incredibly expensive,

853
00:43:22,102 --> 00:43:24,982
Speaker 2: like organic everything, you know. I was listening to a

854
00:43:24,982 --> 00:43:27,381
Speaker 2: podcast recently where the hosts were talking about how they

855
00:43:27,382 --> 00:43:29,142
Speaker 2: were hooking each other up with a link to where

856
00:43:29,142 --> 00:43:31,861
Speaker 2: you could buy clean grains, and you're like, oh my god,

857
00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:36,661
Speaker 2: so even quen wa isn't healthy unless SENSI. Yeah, you

858
00:43:36,701 --> 00:43:40,741
Speaker 2: know this particular place like there's so much status in it,

859
00:43:40,822 --> 00:43:43,341
Speaker 2: and it is definitely tied up with skinny. But I

860
00:43:43,342 --> 00:43:46,181
Speaker 2: think one of the complicating factors is that health is

861
00:43:46,221 --> 00:43:49,461
Speaker 2: part of it too. Really bad overly processed, cheap food

862
00:43:49,502 --> 00:43:51,542
Speaker 2: full of chemicals is making people see.

863
00:43:51,422 --> 00:43:54,102
Speaker 3: But who hasn't had something lodged into their head that

864
00:43:54,142 --> 00:43:57,301
Speaker 3: a celebrity said fifteen years ago about food that has

865
00:43:57,342 --> 00:43:59,301
Speaker 3: nothing to do with health. It has everything to do

866
00:43:59,342 --> 00:44:01,982
Speaker 3: with weight. That has literally changed how you eat. Oh,

867
00:44:02,181 --> 00:44:04,661
Speaker 3: and I think there's you know, there's guidelines about how

868
00:44:04,661 --> 00:44:08,382
Speaker 3: we report in the media on weight eating disorders. You

869
00:44:08,462 --> 00:44:11,341
Speaker 3: never put someone And this happens all the time, and

870
00:44:11,382 --> 00:44:14,022
Speaker 3: I see it now all over Instagram, Like we should

871
00:44:14,062 --> 00:44:16,301
Speaker 3: not be talking about numbers on a scale, whether it's

872
00:44:16,302 --> 00:44:20,982
Speaker 3: about eating disorders or whatever, because it encourages copycat behavior.

873
00:44:21,181 --> 00:44:22,862
Speaker 3: And I think that all of this is only getting

874
00:44:22,862 --> 00:44:26,422
Speaker 3: worse because every time I log on to TikTok, I

875
00:44:26,462 --> 00:44:28,261
Speaker 3: get a what I eat in a day and I

876
00:44:28,302 --> 00:44:29,022
Speaker 3: look at it and I.

877
00:44:28,982 --> 00:44:32,261
Speaker 4: Go, you haven't eating disorder? Like this is an eating disorder.

878
00:44:31,942 --> 00:44:33,622
Speaker 1: Gressed up aspiration and content.

879
00:44:33,741 --> 00:44:34,622
Speaker 4: Yeap, exactly right.

880
00:44:35,142 --> 00:44:37,102
Speaker 2: A massive thank you out louders. That's all we have

881
00:44:37,181 --> 00:44:39,702
Speaker 2: time for today. Thank you for listening to our show,

882
00:44:39,741 --> 00:44:42,262
Speaker 2: and of course to our fabulous team for putting this together.

883
00:44:42,342 --> 00:44:45,582
Speaker 2: We are getting on a plane and going to Perth.

884
00:44:45,902 --> 00:44:47,862
Speaker 2: But we will still be back in your ears tomorrow

885
00:44:47,902 --> 00:44:48,821
Speaker 2: of course, and.

886
00:44:48,781 --> 00:44:50,821
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to listen to. On

887
00:44:50,942 --> 00:44:54,982
Speaker 1: yesterday's episode, Amelia and I talked all about the Kennedy

888
00:44:54,982 --> 00:44:59,702
Speaker 1: women and one of my personal obsessions Carolyn Beissett Kennedy,

889
00:45:00,102 --> 00:45:02,941
Speaker 1: who some say is the original influencer. Do you even

890
00:45:02,942 --> 00:45:04,261
Speaker 1: know who she's Jesse Oria.

891
00:45:04,102 --> 00:45:07,742
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I went to the JFK Museum in Boston

892
00:45:07,862 --> 00:45:09,502
Speaker 3: and they had like some of her clothes.

893
00:45:09,781 --> 00:45:12,422
Speaker 1: Oh wow. A link, as always, will be in the

894
00:45:12,462 --> 00:45:14,262
Speaker 1: show notes. Bye bye.

895
00:45:15,502 --> 00:45:18,421
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening. If

896
00:45:18,422 --> 00:45:20,421
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

897
00:45:20,661 --> 00:45:23,462
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way

898
00:45:23,502 --> 00:45:26,062
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.