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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: I was prepared to be Ray's caregiver as she died

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Speaker 1: of cancer, but I wasn't prepared to be living with

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Speaker 1: like a ravenous, vampiric junkie. And it was horrifying, And

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Speaker 1: I mean it escalated to the point that I was

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Speaker 1: so desperate and so abused that I actually, like seriously

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Speaker 1: contemplated murdering her.

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Speaker 3: There's one thing you definitely know about Elizabeth Gilbert. She

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Speaker 3: wrote Eat, Pray Love. That book, released almost twenty years

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Speaker 3: ago in two thousand and six, is one that became

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Speaker 3: a sensation, a moment, a movement. It sold more than

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Speaker 3: fifteen million copies worldwide, became a movie starring Julia Roberts,

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Speaker 3: and sent countless women off to India, in Italy and

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Speaker 3: Bali in search of their own version of enlightenment. And

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Speaker 3: it made Liz Gilbert one of those rare things, a

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Speaker 3: very very famous writer. Then, depending on how much you

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Speaker 3: loved Eat Prey, you might know a few more details

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Speaker 3: about what happened next. She married that guy from the

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Speaker 3: end of the book. She toured the world for a

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Speaker 3: few years with her best friend, a musician and filmmaker

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Speaker 3: called Raya Elias, promoting her best selling novels and Raya's

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Speaker 3: gritty memoir and talking about how to live a creative

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Speaker 3: life of integrity. Then Raya was diagnosed with terminal liver

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Speaker 3: cancer in twenty sixteen, and Elizabeth told the world that

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Speaker 3: they were in fact not only best friends, but in love.

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Speaker 2: Her marriage ended.

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Speaker 3: She and Raya held a commitment ceremony with their closest friends,

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Speaker 3: and Liz cared for her through her final months.

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Speaker 2: Raya Elias died.

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Speaker 3: In January twenty eighteen, and Liz Gilbert devastated. Grieving on creating,

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Speaker 3: she wrote a joyful novel from the depths.

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Speaker 2: Of pain called City of Girls.

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Speaker 3: She was prolific on social media for a time, posting

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Speaker 3: about grief and briefly talking about falling in love again

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Speaker 3: with an old friend, and then quiet, Liz Gilbert left

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Speaker 3: social media and slowly slowly she began to write a

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Speaker 3: new community for herself on substack, in a place she

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Speaker 3: caused letters from Love. Over the years since Raya's death,

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Speaker 3: she has spoken sparingly about how she lives and loves

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Speaker 3: now and the truth of what happened until now.

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Speaker 2: Her new book, All the.

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Speaker 3: Way to the River is a memoir about her and

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Speaker 3: Raya's great love story and what went before that, and

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Speaker 3: about her marriages, and about Gilbert's own life destroying addiction.

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Speaker 3: I am a sex and love addict, writes Gilbert. I

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Speaker 3: have caused tremendous harm to myself and others through my

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Speaker 3: decades of sex and love addiction. I have inserted myself

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Speaker 3: into other people's relationships, and I have broken up families.

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Speaker 3: I have lied to myself and others. I have hurt

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Speaker 3: people whom I promise to cherish. I have crossed boundaries

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Speaker 3: with friends. I have run away from people who cared

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Speaker 3: about me and toward people who didn't. I have cheated

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Speaker 3: on people and allowed myself to be cheated on.

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Speaker 2: I have tried to.

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Speaker 3: Buy love with money, she goes on. I have committed

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Speaker 3: and accepted shameful objectification. I have used people's bodies as drugs,

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Speaker 3: both sedatives and stimulants. I have treated my own body

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Speaker 3: with terrible disrespect, and I have never been able to stop.

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Speaker 3: That's what All the Way to the River is about.

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Speaker 3: Friends A recovering addicts rory telling of a story that

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Speaker 3: many thought they knew, and at its center is Raya.

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Speaker 3: Liz says, this is their story, her very best effort

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Speaker 3: to tell the truth of what happened between me and

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Speaker 3: Raya Elias, our friendship, our romance, our beauty, rage and pain.

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Speaker 3: But that story isn't what you think, friends, If you

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Speaker 3: think it's all flowers and sunsets and a calm fade

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Speaker 3: into a glorious eternal togetherness, no, not so much. Not

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Speaker 3: with all the drugs and the leaving, oh and the

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Speaker 3: murder plot all the way to the river is exceptional,

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Speaker 3: brutal and honest and brave. And I could barely contain

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Speaker 3: myself when I got the opportunity to talk to Liz

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Speaker 3: Gilbert about it. Here is Elizabeth Gilbert. Liz, I've already

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Speaker 3: told you how much how incredible this book is, but

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Speaker 3: I would love to start talking about it with a

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Speaker 3: quote from Raya that you use to explain part of

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Speaker 3: her singularity, where you say she said, when everything else

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Speaker 3: in the room has blown up or dissolved away, the

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Speaker 3: only thing left standing will be the truth. And this

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Speaker 3: book it drips with truth. It's like swollen with truth.

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Speaker 3: It's so true, and you say that it's your very

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Speaker 3: best effort to tell the truth about what happened between

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Speaker 3: you and Raya. Was there any part of you that

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Speaker 3: was afraid to blow up and dissolve so many preconceptions

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Speaker 3: and false idols, and you know, was there any part

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Speaker 3: of you that was scared of that when you were

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Speaker 3: writing this incredible book.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you, and hello and hello for

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Speaker 1: having me in the show. And I love that we're

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Speaker 1: just going to dive right into the white hot, radioactive

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Speaker 1: center of the truth. Let's do it. That's a great

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Speaker 1: first question. Yes, And the short answer to that is, yes,

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Speaker 1: there were lots of parts of me that were afraid

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Speaker 1: of going, you know, right into the middle of it

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Speaker 1: and telling the entire story. And the reason that it

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Speaker 1: took me seven years after she died to write the

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Speaker 1: stories because of all sorts of reservations I had about

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Speaker 1: about telling this story, not least of which I mean,

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Speaker 1: I actually would say foremost of which was not so

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Speaker 1: much about like revealing myself to other people, which were

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Speaker 1: pretty comfortable doing, but like I didn't want to revisit it,

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Speaker 1: you know, like there are parts of that story that

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Speaker 1: are so harrowing and traumatizing, like I would have been

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Speaker 1: pretty happy just to put a coat of paint over

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Speaker 1: to pay over it, walked away, you know, and been like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, we really loved each other. We were good friends.

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Speaker 1: You know, she died like that. I don't really want

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Speaker 1: to talk about it, Like I didn't really want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. And the thing that I loved the

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Speaker 1: most about Raya Elias, and there was a lot to love,

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Speaker 1: was best encapsulated in a line about her that our friend,

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Speaker 1: the novelist Johnny Miles said at her funeral. He said,

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Speaker 1: she didn't want your false self. She wouldn't accept your

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Speaker 1: false self. She had this way of just looking at

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Speaker 1: you and looking right through all the stories and being like, dude,

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Speaker 1: what's actually going on here? And I felt like that

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Speaker 1: penetrating gaze, that fearlessness in the face of the truth

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Speaker 1: was her most noble legacy, And so eventually it was like, dude,

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Speaker 1: you just got to sit down and see what actually happened.

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Speaker 3: It's actually in the book that trepidation. Yeah, there are

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Speaker 3: excerpts from your journals in here, there are illustrations, there

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Speaker 3: are all sorts of things, but there's also this wonderful

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Speaker 3: sense for the reader that when you're about to jump

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Speaker 3: into those very murky parts, you're like, Okay, I could

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Speaker 3: leave this there. I could leave this with the romantic

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Speaker 3: notion that you've all maybe walked away with or chosen

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Speaker 3: to believe. But actually, and there's actually a pardon it

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Speaker 3: where you say, Before I could write these next few chapters,

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Speaker 3: I had to take myself off to Central America for

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Speaker 3: a while. I mean, it must have been an enormous

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Speaker 3: you know, it must have been very difficult to do that.

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Speaker 3: But did you feel invested in letting this? You talk

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Speaker 3: a lot about Raya and also yourself and your relationship

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Speaker 3: and how maybe it had been put on a pedestal

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Speaker 3: by a lot of people that they believed a certain

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Speaker 3: version of it, and that comes through so strongly. But also,

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Speaker 3: like every relationship, the messy depths of it are exposed to.

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Speaker 3: Do you still write in that way to let other

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Speaker 3: people feel seen in their messiness?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, you know, I think that's the highest public

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Speaker 1: service that we can possibly do. And I have grown

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Speaker 1: so much and my life has been so transformed by

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Speaker 1: people who are willing to learn in public or willing

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Speaker 1: to reveal themselves in public. Some of my greatest teachers

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Speaker 1: are people who I've never personally met, but their work

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Speaker 1: and the way that they forensically, you know, go into

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Speaker 1: the excavations of their own truth. The fearlessness about what

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Speaker 1: they're willing to reveal, has transformed me and made me

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Speaker 1: feel much less alone, much less crazy, much less lost.

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Speaker 1: And so for sure, I mean, and it's not just

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Speaker 1: that I want people to feel seen, But what I

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Speaker 1: really hope that I conveyed in this book is I

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Speaker 1: want people to feel innocent. And innocence is a really

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Speaker 1: difficult thing for a lot of us to feel, especially

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Speaker 1: having been raised if we've been raised in any culture

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Speaker 1: influenced by the West. I shouldn't just say that most

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Speaker 1: cultures are shame based. I've traveled. I've traveled around the world.

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Speaker 1: Shames of powerful cultural control mechanism that keeps families gritted together,

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Speaker 1: that keeps neighborhoods gritted together, that keeps more raised. And

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Speaker 1: you know, shames a power, powerful cultural tool, and most

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Speaker 1: of us have been deep impacted by it. And the

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Speaker 1: thought that we might be innocent and be a lot

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Speaker 1: for us to imagine. I think of innocence as kind

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Speaker 1: of the opposite of shame, and and I say it

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Speaker 1: multiple times in the book. I reiterate, like, there's an

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Speaker 1: innocence in all of this too, Like there's an innocence

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Speaker 1: in addiction, there's an innocence in codependency. There's an innocence

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Speaker 1: in denial. Oh my god, there's certainly an innocence in denial.

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Speaker 1: Denial is a precious tool of the psyche to guard

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Speaker 1: and protect you before you are ready to be capable

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Speaker 1: of seeing truthful things, and it's just doing its job

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Speaker 1: trying to help, you know. So, yeah, that's what I

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Speaker 1: That's what I hope. Listen, people will come away from

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Speaker 1: it with whatever they need to come away from it with.

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Speaker 1: That was a lot of prepositions to put in a

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Speaker 1: row there, but you know that. But I hope that

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Speaker 1: people see a shared humanity and a shared a shared

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Speaker 1: innocence in that all any of us are ever trying

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Speaker 1: to do is get through the day and by any

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Speaker 1: tools and mechanisms possible, and the only thing anyone literally

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Speaker 1: ever is doing is what they think is a good

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Speaker 1: idea at that moment, and that's innocent.

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Speaker 3: In the story of your life with Raya and where

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Speaker 3: that love story went is also very much in an

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Speaker 3: hand in hand here with stories of addiction, and the

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Speaker 3: story is that, and you've talked about this publicly a

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Speaker 3: few times that in Ray's final weeks and months, she

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Speaker 3: sunk back into addiction. I don't know if that is

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Speaker 3: the right language, but the addiction reared its head again. Oh,

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Speaker 3: that's a good way to put its the way to

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Speaker 3: put it right. And those chapters are shocking, Liz, they

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Speaker 3: are very they are shocking to read and incredibly moving.

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Speaker 3: And then there's your addiction, your love and sex addiction

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Speaker 3: that puts a different lens on this whole experience too.

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Speaker 2: You have a chapter in.

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Speaker 3: There that's called public Private Secret that's based from a

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Speaker 3: Marquez quote. I think it's hard to imagine a bigger

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Speaker 3: gap between public Liz and real Liz than those final

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Speaker 3: months when your life in that New York City apartment

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Speaker 3: was so was so desperate. There was a moment where

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Speaker 3: you decided to call friends and it changed everything. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell us a bit about that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that line, Public Private Secret is Garcia America

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Speaker 1: has said that everybody has three lives, a public life,

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Speaker 1: a private life, and a secret life. And somebody asked

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Speaker 1: me one time, what's the difference between a private life

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Speaker 1: and a secret life. And you know, your private life

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Speaker 1: is the life that you don't share with the public.

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Speaker 1: That's your intimate life with your family and friends, or

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Speaker 1: when you're alone. Your secret life is what they don't

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Speaker 1: even know about, you know, and oftentimes what you don't

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Speaker 1: even know about, Like, you know, the complexities of the

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Speaker 1: human capacity for compartmentalization often mean that we hide parts

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Speaker 1: of ourselves, not only from others, but from us. You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'm the last to know that I've been up

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Speaker 1: to something really unhealthy because I'm so good at doing

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Speaker 1: things behind my own back, holding my cards so close

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Speaker 1: to the chest, I can't even read them, you know.

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Speaker 1: It has been a common feature of my life. And

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Speaker 1: another friend of mine, when they read that part, said,

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Speaker 1: oh right. The reason people keep their secret life secret

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Speaker 1: is because if it were to come out, it would

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Speaker 1: destroy both your private life and your public life. And

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Speaker 1: that's what addiction is often is marked by, like, there's

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Speaker 1: things I'm doing that nobody must ever know about, or

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Speaker 1: it will destroy my private life and my public life.

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Speaker 1: And what was happening during that time was that Reya,

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Speaker 1: who had been in recovery from heroin and cocaine addiction.

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Speaker 1: She'd been a low bottom, as we call it in

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Speaker 1: the room, a low bottom junkie, like living, you know,

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Speaker 1: for a lot of her adult life, living on the streets,

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Speaker 1: living in jails and institutions, you know, a real desperate

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Speaker 1: heroin addict. And she was clean from that for a

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Speaker 1: really long time, and then at the end of her

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Speaker 1: cancer journey, she picked it back up again and went

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Speaker 1: back into just this harrowing level of cocaine and opioid addiction.

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Speaker 1: And it's so fast, you know, Like it really made

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Speaker 1: my head spin, because that was the one thing nobody

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Speaker 1: saw coming. Like I was prepared to be Ray's caregiver

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Speaker 1: as she died of cancer, but I wasn't prepared to

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Speaker 1: be living with like a ravenous, vampiric junkie. And I

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Speaker 1: had never known her as that person. And that's something

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Speaker 1: that I think anybody who's ever lived with an addict

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Speaker 1: can identify with, is the incredible disconnect between this person

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Speaker 1: that you know and the person that the addict becomes.

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Speaker 1: And it was horrifying, and I mean it escalated to

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Speaker 1: the point that I was so desperate and so abused

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Speaker 1: that I actually, like seriously contemplated murdering her, and I

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Speaker 1: write about it in the book really openly because I

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Speaker 1: think it's important to talk about the lengths, like how

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Speaker 1: far we can be pushed. And she was a hospice

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Speaker 1: patient and there was absolutely no way that I could

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Speaker 1: have an intervention and tell her that if you don't

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Speaker 1: stop doing drugs, you're going to die, because she was

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Speaker 1: already dying. It was a real, like karmic predicament that

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Speaker 1: I was in, and I'm like, she's killing me. She

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Speaker 1: now has to die. And as I say in the book,

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Speaker 1: I'm the nice lady who wrote in Pray Love, and

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Speaker 1: that's where I got to. That's where we can get

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Speaker 1: to when we follow that far away from ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: instead of murdering her, what I ended up doing that

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Speaker 1: day was beginning to tell the truth, calling a bunch

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Speaker 1: of friends and really letting myself be seen and revealing

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Speaker 1: what was actually going on in our apartment, because up

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Speaker 1: until that point i'd been communicating with the world through

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Speaker 1: what we're essentially a series of press releases. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was just even with my intimate friends, being like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ray is really brave, and you know she's struggling and

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Speaker 1: she's really brave, and she's amazing, and she's my hero,

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Speaker 1: and I'm you know, I'm a selfless caregiver and We've

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Speaker 1: got this whole thing under control. And nothing could have

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Speaker 1: been further from the truth. At that point, when she

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Speaker 1: was spending thousands of dollars a day a week on cocaine,

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Speaker 1: I was going down to the needle exchange to get

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Speaker 1: needles for her. It was a nightmare. Like it was.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a nightmare, and nothing in my

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Speaker 1: life had ever prepared me for anything like that. But

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Speaker 1: I see now that that that moment of beginning to

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Speaker 1: let myself be seen, there's that's a hinge point in

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Speaker 1: my life that I would say was the beginning. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have known it that day, but the beginning of

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Speaker 1: my journey into my own twelve step recovery for extreme

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Speaker 1: codependency and enabling behaviors that have characterized all my relationships.

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Speaker 3: Because one of those friends sort of said that to you,

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Speaker 3: didn't they in a way is that maybe you have

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Speaker 3: well you have the words obviously, but that you have

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Speaker 3: a part in this lires maybe you need help. And

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Speaker 3: what's so beautiful in the horror of this story is

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Speaker 3: of that part of the story. Obviously, the whole story

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Speaker 3: is certainly not not fooled with horror? Is that that's

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Speaker 3: what you begin to examine as you say, how does

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Speaker 3: the Eat Prey Love Lady get to that point?

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Speaker 2: And that's what you're saying, this is how far I

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Speaker 2: will go.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain a little bit about what you mean

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Speaker 3: about being a sex and love at it, because I

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Speaker 3: think probably some listeners to this show would think that

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Speaker 3: that's something that men say they are when they can't

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Speaker 3: stop cheating on their wives, like a sort of very mainstream.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, yeah, diagnose this of it.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I definitely had heard of sex addiction, but

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Speaker 1: it's something that I associated with men and something that

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Speaker 1: I associated with like enacting out behavior around using prostitution,

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Speaker 1: around you know, going to massage parlor's addiction to pornography,

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Speaker 1: people who can't stop cheating on their partners. That's not

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Speaker 1: what my life looked like. So that's not something that

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Speaker 1: I would have thought that I was. But I identify

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Speaker 1: now as a sex and law addict in recovery, and

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Speaker 1: I when I identify myself, I'm qualifying myself for the

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Speaker 1: program that I belong to and I'm part of in

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Speaker 1: my recovery, I very much choose to use both of

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Speaker 1: those words sex and love, and I very much chose

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Speaker 1: to use both of those words in the book rather

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Speaker 1: than couching it in euphemism or hiding behind words that

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Speaker 1: women are more comfortable with, like codependency, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I really want to to shine a big fat light

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Speaker 1: on not just the fact that I'm a blackout codependent

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Speaker 1: and a skid row enabler, but also that my entire

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Speaker 1: since pubescent's life, have used sex as a way of

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Speaker 1: trying to get my needs met, mostly by men by

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Speaker 1: Raya when I was with Raya. But that's a currency

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Speaker 1: that I figured out at a pretty young age could

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Speaker 1: get me what we call in my recovery program lava, love, attention, validation,

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Speaker 1: and affection that without which I did not think I

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Speaker 1: could survive. And the evidence that I did not think

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Speaker 1: I could survive without that lava without that love, attention, validation,

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Speaker 1: and affection is you know, if you were to lay

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Speaker 1: out my entire like if you were to chart out

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Speaker 1: my entire sexual and romantic history starting from the age

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Speaker 1: of fourteen and going until the age of which I

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Speaker 1: did do as part of my recovery program. And if

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Speaker 1: you were to show that chart with all of its

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Speaker 1: details to somebody and say, give me a psychological profile

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Speaker 1: of this person, they would not say that is definitely

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Speaker 1: an emotionally stable and healthy human beings, like they would

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Speaker 1: like a twelve year old child would look at that

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Speaker 1: and be like bish ekra from that Coally's help, Like

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Speaker 1: whoever is doing that is not okay? Like this is

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Speaker 1: not okay going from one like overlapping, constantly overlapping from

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Speaker 1: one relationship to another. This is clearly somebody who has

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Speaker 1: a total inability to be alone. This is clearly somebody

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Speaker 1: who has a total inability to meet her own needs.

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Speaker 1: This is clearly somebody who's addicted to intensity and drama.

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Speaker 1: This is not a healthy portrait of a healthy human being.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why I claim the diagnosis sex and

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Speaker 1: mon addict. Even though for a woman to say that

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Speaker 1: publicly is rare. It doesn't mean that there aren't a

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Speaker 1: lot of women in the program that I go to.

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Speaker 1: It's just that there's I almost feel like it carries

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Speaker 1: the same burden of shame that alcoholism did one hundred

352
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Speaker 1: years ago. And the whole reason that those anonymous programs

353
00:21:28,085 --> 00:21:30,845
Speaker 1: became anonymous was because of the tremendous shame of being

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Speaker 1: an alcoholic. I don't think that really exists so much anymore.

355
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Speaker 1: I think drug addiction and alcoholic and a lot of

356
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Speaker 1: other addictions are they're much more out in the open,

357
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Speaker 1: But this one, especially for women, is still, yeah, a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of shame of not being able to handle

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Speaker 1: yourself sexually as a woman.

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Speaker 3: I think that there are a lot of women who

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Speaker 3: listen to what you just said, and certainly when I

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Speaker 3: was reading the book some of the handover the mouth moments.

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Speaker 2: You talk about.

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Speaker 3: Using people in the way that our traditional view of

365
00:22:01,125 --> 00:22:07,005
Speaker 3: an addict uses drugs to mask to, you know, make

366
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Speaker 3: you feel less alone. As you've said, then it doesn't

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Speaker 3: work because, like any addiction, almost the tolerance changes, and

368
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Speaker 3: everybody inevitably lets you down. I mean they don't, but

369
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Speaker 3: in your mind lets you down doesn't fix everything, and

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Speaker 3: then the fury that comes.

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Speaker 2: Up in you.

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Speaker 3: You also write so brilliantly about even after this terrible

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Speaker 3: incident with ray or when you have to leave, and

374
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Speaker 3: then you're like, I couldn't fix it, and she doesn't

375
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Speaker 3: know how great I was, and there's a sort of

376
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Speaker 3: resentment always in why didn't they feel grateful for all

377
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Speaker 3: the things I did for them. I think they're going

378
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Speaker 3: to be a lot of women who are like, yes,

379
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Speaker 3: that's me.

380
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Speaker 2: I myself into that guy.

381
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Speaker 3: Yes, and then he turned around and he didn't fix

382
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Speaker 3: everything in my life, And fuck him, it's all.

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Speaker 2: Him, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of women feel that, like we'll

385
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Speaker 3: recognize that and maybe not realize that this is them,

386
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Speaker 3: that this is their pattern.

387
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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and as my first sponsor said to me,

388
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Speaker 1: once there's the prefix co is built right there into

389
00:23:13,965 --> 00:23:16,365
Speaker 1: the word codependent. It's right there. They put it right

390
00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:20,045
Speaker 1: there at the beginning so that you could see that

391
00:23:20,125 --> 00:23:23,805
Speaker 1: it involves two people, you know, like you are co

392
00:23:23,925 --> 00:23:29,565
Speaker 1: creating this dysfunction, like you know you And of course

393
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Speaker 1: I like a good codependent. I do love me an addict,

394
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Speaker 1: you know, like I do love me a lost cause

395
00:23:36,525 --> 00:23:38,525
Speaker 1: I love me a fixer up or I love somebody

396
00:23:39,045 --> 00:23:44,445
Speaker 1: who who who needs to be rescued so that I

397
00:23:44,485 --> 00:23:48,405
Speaker 1: can be secure. And a friend of mine describes it

398
00:23:48,485 --> 00:23:52,005
Speaker 1: as bad maths to put it in like just there's

399
00:23:52,045 --> 00:23:55,085
Speaker 1: this mathematical equation that I think men can do it too,

400
00:23:55,125 --> 00:23:57,965
Speaker 1: but women really do this a lot and I certainly

401
00:23:58,005 --> 00:24:00,885
Speaker 1: have done this a lot, which is like, I'm going

402
00:24:00,925 --> 00:24:04,325
Speaker 1: to take every single thing that I have and every

403
00:24:04,405 --> 00:24:06,805
Speaker 1: single thing that I am, and I'm going to pour

404
00:24:06,885 --> 00:24:10,165
Speaker 1: it into you. So I'm going to empty myself into you.

405
00:24:10,765 --> 00:24:12,525
Speaker 1: Like so that's the first part of the equation. I'm

406
00:24:12,965 --> 00:24:14,925
Speaker 1: going to empty my resources. I'm going to give you

407
00:24:15,045 --> 00:24:17,805
Speaker 1: all of my love. I'm going to hold nothing in reserve.

408
00:24:17,845 --> 00:24:19,365
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you all of my care. I'm

409
00:24:19,365 --> 00:24:21,005
Speaker 1: going to give you all of my tenderness, all of

410
00:24:21,045 --> 00:24:24,285
Speaker 1: my nurturing, every single thing. I'm going to boost you up.

411
00:24:24,365 --> 00:24:27,605
Speaker 1: I'm going to support you in every possible way. And

412
00:24:27,645 --> 00:24:30,925
Speaker 1: in return, you're going to give me a sense of

413
00:24:30,965 --> 00:24:33,685
Speaker 1: myself that I do not have. Right, You're going to

414
00:24:33,765 --> 00:24:37,005
Speaker 1: give me a sense of value and a sense of

415
00:24:37,165 --> 00:24:40,245
Speaker 1: my esteem and a sense of my worth that is

416
00:24:40,285 --> 00:24:44,685
Speaker 1: absolutely missing in me. That's your job, right Oftentimes, I mean,

417
00:24:44,885 --> 00:24:47,765
Speaker 1: like all drugs, it kind of works at first, right, Like,

418
00:24:47,805 --> 00:24:50,445
Speaker 1: nobody would do any of this if there wasn't a payoff, Right,

419
00:24:50,485 --> 00:24:53,565
Speaker 1: there's in it. Oftentimes, especially in the early days of romance,

420
00:24:53,605 --> 00:24:55,685
Speaker 1: there seems to be that payoff seems to be working

421
00:24:55,965 --> 00:25:02,645
Speaker 1: right when but when that person inevitably starts to recoil,

422
00:25:03,285 --> 00:25:07,765
Speaker 1: to recoil, and to retract themselves from this incredibly intense,

423
00:25:07,885 --> 00:25:13,485
Speaker 1: energetic exchange. What I then become is a beggar who

424
00:25:13,565 --> 00:25:16,205
Speaker 1: the way I picture it is, I'm now standing begging

425
00:25:16,245 --> 00:25:19,285
Speaker 1: outside of a pawn shop where all my belongings are, Like,

426
00:25:19,365 --> 00:25:22,165
Speaker 1: I gave you everything that I am, and I gave

427
00:25:22,205 --> 00:25:23,765
Speaker 1: you everything that I have, and now I'm going to

428
00:25:23,845 --> 00:25:27,125
Speaker 1: stand outside this closed pawnshop and beg you to give

429
00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:30,925
Speaker 1: me something back, right, And if you don't, then I

430
00:25:31,045 --> 00:25:33,885
Speaker 1: blame you for leaving me empty. But I'm the one

431
00:25:33,885 --> 00:25:37,525
Speaker 1: who emptied myself into you, right, but only always, like

432
00:25:37,645 --> 00:25:40,725
Speaker 1: only one percent of the time. And also I think

433
00:25:40,765 --> 00:25:42,965
Speaker 1: this is often a common thing with women. Every single

434
00:25:43,005 --> 00:25:45,045
Speaker 1: person who I ever thought would take care of me,

435
00:25:45,525 --> 00:25:48,205
Speaker 1: I ended up taking care of yes, And that's also

436
00:25:48,285 --> 00:25:51,805
Speaker 1: been like a prevalent theme in my relationships, Like wait

437
00:25:51,805 --> 00:25:53,165
Speaker 1: a minute, I was supposed to give you all of

438
00:25:53,165 --> 00:25:55,085
Speaker 1: this so that you would take care of me, But

439
00:25:55,565 --> 00:25:57,965
Speaker 1: here I am providing for your every need, you know.

440
00:25:58,485 --> 00:26:00,965
Speaker 1: And then comes to the resentment in the rage, Yes,

441
00:26:01,005 --> 00:26:04,085
Speaker 1: you know you took you took it from me. You

442
00:26:04,645 --> 00:26:08,045
Speaker 1: I gave you everything, you know, and I always my

443
00:26:08,165 --> 00:26:12,125
Speaker 1: joke is that that the anthem of the embittered codependent

444
00:26:12,245 --> 00:26:17,725
Speaker 1: is after all I've done for you, And I still

445
00:26:17,845 --> 00:26:22,005
Speaker 1: battle with that as an overgiver, blaming somebody for emptying me,

446
00:26:22,765 --> 00:26:25,725
Speaker 1: when in fact I did that, And that's my continuous work.

447
00:26:29,565 --> 00:26:31,365
Speaker 3: We're about to take a small break, but in a

448
00:26:31,405 --> 00:26:34,805
Speaker 3: moment I'll be back with more from the Inimitable Liz Gilbert.

449
00:26:36,725 --> 00:26:39,365
Speaker 3: One of the complexities around this with women, as we

450
00:26:39,365 --> 00:26:41,285
Speaker 3: were just discussing when you were saying about the shame

451
00:26:41,325 --> 00:26:45,245
Speaker 3: that women can feel about using this label towards themselves,

452
00:26:45,285 --> 00:26:46,805
Speaker 3: is it, and you write in this book, is that

453
00:26:47,485 --> 00:26:51,485
Speaker 3: society upset expects women to give themselves to death almost

454
00:26:51,605 --> 00:26:53,885
Speaker 3: you know that is our role is to take care

455
00:26:53,965 --> 00:26:57,325
Speaker 3: of everybody else, and no wonder we're angry and exhausted.

456
00:26:57,365 --> 00:26:59,565
Speaker 3: As I know, I've heard you said before that every

457
00:26:59,565 --> 00:27:01,965
Speaker 3: woman you grew up around was angry and exhausted.

458
00:27:03,005 --> 00:27:03,925
Speaker 2: Tell me a bit.

459
00:27:03,765 --> 00:27:07,485
Speaker 3: About what life looks like in recovery from that, because

460
00:27:08,085 --> 00:27:12,485
Speaker 3: also in the book you talk about after Raya's death

461
00:27:12,565 --> 00:27:15,845
Speaker 3: you went on what you call a bender almost but

462
00:27:16,045 --> 00:27:19,285
Speaker 3: then you go back to the rooms of recovery, and

463
00:27:19,365 --> 00:27:22,445
Speaker 3: now for years you have lived in recovery from this.

464
00:27:23,245 --> 00:27:26,125
Speaker 3: What does that look like for you?

465
00:27:26,165 --> 00:27:26,245
Speaker 1: Know?

466
00:27:26,285 --> 00:27:28,365
Speaker 2: To explain on quite a basic level.

467
00:27:28,325 --> 00:27:30,125
Speaker 1: Well I could. I can only share what it looks

468
00:27:30,165 --> 00:27:33,485
Speaker 1: like for me, because I don't want to speak for

469
00:27:33,685 --> 00:27:36,365
Speaker 1: any particular program or group of people. But I can

470
00:27:36,405 --> 00:27:40,885
Speaker 1: say what my recovery journey looks like. It was beautifully

471
00:27:40,885 --> 00:27:44,205
Speaker 1: explained to me at the beginning of my recovery journey.

472
00:27:44,245 --> 00:27:49,525
Speaker 1: That obsession is when you put something at the center

473
00:27:49,605 --> 00:27:54,485
Speaker 1: of your focus and you push away everything else, right,

474
00:27:54,925 --> 00:27:58,485
Speaker 1: and so that person or that substance or that behavior

475
00:27:58,565 --> 00:28:04,125
Speaker 1: becomes this sort of monumental energy devouring center of your

476
00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:08,405
Speaker 1: entire life, and all things are pushed away. So what

477
00:28:08,805 --> 00:28:13,285
Speaker 1: recovery looks like is you're reversing. For me, there's a

478
00:28:13,365 --> 00:28:18,165
Speaker 1: daily effort to reverse that that picture. So I and

479
00:28:18,525 --> 00:28:20,445
Speaker 1: so what was at the center of my life now

480
00:28:20,525 --> 00:28:23,405
Speaker 1: must go to the periphery. So and what was at

481
00:28:23,445 --> 00:28:26,365
Speaker 1: the periphery now must come to the center. So what

482
00:28:26,525 --> 00:28:28,485
Speaker 1: was at the center of my life was this non

483
00:28:28,685 --> 00:28:33,445
Speaker 1: stop pursuit of romantic and sexual attention, this non like,

484
00:28:33,525 --> 00:28:37,525
Speaker 1: this ferocious desperate need to couple, to be in union,

485
00:28:37,685 --> 00:28:40,605
Speaker 1: to be loved, to be seen, to be valued to

486
00:28:40,685 --> 00:28:43,205
Speaker 1: be chosen, you know this I mean, And that was

487
00:28:43,245 --> 00:28:45,205
Speaker 1: at the center of my existence long before I ever

488
00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:48,125
Speaker 1: even became sexually active as a very young teenager, like

489
00:28:48,205 --> 00:28:50,725
Speaker 1: I wanted that, long before I was figuring out how

490
00:28:50,765 --> 00:28:52,765
Speaker 1: to get it from boys and men. That was the

491
00:28:52,805 --> 00:28:56,685
Speaker 1: center of my life. That is now far in the periphery.

492
00:28:57,085 --> 00:28:59,725
Speaker 1: It's like this is going way out to the deep

493
00:28:59,845 --> 00:29:01,925
Speaker 1: and shallow end of the swimming pool, Like we're pushing

494
00:29:01,925 --> 00:29:03,685
Speaker 1: this very far away, and what we're putting in the

495
00:29:03,725 --> 00:29:07,365
Speaker 1: center of my life is everything that I neglected in

496
00:29:07,525 --> 00:29:12,765
Speaker 1: order to obsess over this fixation. And so that means, like,

497
00:29:13,685 --> 00:29:15,725
Speaker 1: you know, the way it was described to me when

498
00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:18,445
Speaker 1: I first came in was we call it top line behaviors,

499
00:29:18,645 --> 00:29:20,365
Speaker 1: you know, like the things that I can do for

500
00:29:20,445 --> 00:29:24,445
Speaker 1: myself that nourish and uplift my own existence, which does

501
00:29:24,485 --> 00:29:27,125
Speaker 1: two things. One is that nourishes and uplifts my own existence,

502
00:29:27,165 --> 00:29:30,205
Speaker 1: and the second is that it teaches me how to

503
00:29:30,245 --> 00:29:34,725
Speaker 1: resource within myself or within a community of a safe

504
00:29:34,725 --> 00:29:39,165
Speaker 1: community of friends, or within a relationship with a higher

505
00:29:39,205 --> 00:29:41,885
Speaker 1: power of some sort. It teaches me how to how

506
00:29:41,885 --> 00:29:45,085
Speaker 1: to resource within myself everything that I've always been demanding

507
00:29:45,125 --> 00:29:50,525
Speaker 1: that other people give to me, and so that's essentially

508
00:29:50,605 --> 00:29:53,565
Speaker 1: learning how to take care of myself. And you know,

509
00:29:53,645 --> 00:29:56,005
Speaker 1: we often say in the rooms of recovery, I was

510
00:29:56,085 --> 00:29:59,565
Speaker 1: raised in dysfunction, but I grew up in recovery, you know.

511
00:29:59,765 --> 00:30:03,285
Speaker 1: So my growing up has happened in the last seven years,

512
00:30:03,805 --> 00:30:08,885
Speaker 1: which is taking complete and absolute accountability for my own

513
00:30:08,925 --> 00:30:13,685
Speaker 1: life and recognizing that that is not anybody else's job,

514
00:30:13,845 --> 00:30:16,885
Speaker 1: nor ever should it have been, and that I am

515
00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:19,885
Speaker 1: capable of that, which is great news and a big

516
00:30:19,925 --> 00:30:22,285
Speaker 1: surprise to people.

517
00:30:22,765 --> 00:30:25,525
Speaker 3: I've heard you say that you've never had a relationship

518
00:30:25,525 --> 00:30:29,685
Speaker 3: as great as not being in a relationship. People must

519
00:30:29,885 --> 00:30:32,925
Speaker 3: if for a recovery, and I know again you can

520
00:30:32,965 --> 00:30:36,045
Speaker 3: only speak for yourself. But in recovery from sex and

521
00:30:36,085 --> 00:30:39,205
Speaker 3: love addiction, does that bias definition mean you have to

522
00:30:39,205 --> 00:30:42,445
Speaker 3: be alone in a romantic sense.

523
00:30:43,445 --> 00:30:45,245
Speaker 1: No, no, not at all. It just means you have

524
00:30:45,285 --> 00:30:51,085
Speaker 1: to be sane and that you have to be self providing.

525
00:30:51,605 --> 00:30:54,485
Speaker 1: You know that you have to be emotionally autonomous, whether

526
00:30:54,565 --> 00:30:59,045
Speaker 1: you are emotionally autonomous within a relationship or emotionally autonomous

527
00:30:59,165 --> 00:31:03,405
Speaker 1: not within a relationship. So the fundamental thing is learning

528
00:31:03,405 --> 00:31:06,525
Speaker 1: how to be in a good, very good relationship with yourself,

529
00:31:07,205 --> 00:31:16,325
Speaker 1: because that's that starved and vacant self relationship is the

530
00:31:16,325 --> 00:31:19,365
Speaker 1: thing that led to all of these incredibly dysfunctional behaviors

531
00:31:19,365 --> 00:31:23,005
Speaker 1: that caused me to harm myself and others. So for me,

532
00:31:23,165 --> 00:31:25,485
Speaker 1: what that has looked like over the last seven years

533
00:31:25,605 --> 00:31:29,365
Speaker 1: is a decision to stay away from romance and dating

534
00:31:29,365 --> 00:31:31,645
Speaker 1: at this point. For other people who are in recovery

535
00:31:31,685 --> 00:31:35,405
Speaker 1: from sex and love addiction, it can mean revitalizing an

536
00:31:35,405 --> 00:31:40,525
Speaker 1: existing marriage that they had created harm within, or something

537
00:31:40,565 --> 00:31:46,405
Speaker 1: called sober dating, which is learning how to interact romantically

538
00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:51,485
Speaker 1: with people in a sober way. And I have, as

539
00:31:51,565 --> 00:31:54,485
Speaker 1: part of my recovery, created a sober dating plan with

540
00:31:54,565 --> 00:31:56,605
Speaker 1: my sponsor and with a number of people in my

541
00:31:56,765 --> 00:31:59,685
Speaker 1: rooms who helped me to create it. And it's essentially

542
00:31:59,725 --> 00:32:04,165
Speaker 1: like best practices for Liz, you know, like and these

543
00:32:04,205 --> 00:32:06,165
Speaker 1: are the things that you know, if I were to

544
00:32:06,805 --> 00:32:11,325
Speaker 1: someday decide that are to put it more honestly, if

545
00:32:12,245 --> 00:32:14,685
Speaker 1: the higher power that I guide my life upon now

546
00:32:15,085 --> 00:32:18,405
Speaker 1: would someday suggest to me that it would be beneficial

547
00:32:18,445 --> 00:32:21,805
Speaker 1: to everyone, because that's also how I'm trying to guide

548
00:32:21,805 --> 00:32:25,885
Speaker 1: my life now, is like what would be beneficial to everyone? Me,

549
00:32:26,045 --> 00:32:29,565
Speaker 1: dating people is not necessarily beneficial to them. And I

550
00:32:29,605 --> 00:32:32,125
Speaker 1: don't say that in any kind of itself attacking way,

551
00:32:32,165 --> 00:32:35,045
Speaker 1: Like I really have come to love this being who

552
00:32:35,085 --> 00:32:39,125
Speaker 1: I am, But I'm not sure that anyone would recommend

553
00:32:40,325 --> 00:32:42,965
Speaker 1: partnering up with me, you know what I mean, Like,

554
00:32:42,965 --> 00:32:46,445
Speaker 1: like does anyone really want to be my fourth spouse?

555
00:32:46,525 --> 00:32:46,725
Speaker 3: You know?

556
00:32:46,805 --> 00:32:50,205
Speaker 1: Like does anybody like does anybody really want to tackle this?

557
00:32:50,685 --> 00:32:54,045
Speaker 1: Like I think it's a public service for me, honestly

558
00:32:54,125 --> 00:32:56,765
Speaker 1: to love people in a different way, and to love

559
00:32:56,805 --> 00:32:59,365
Speaker 1: people in a way where I can show up in

560
00:32:59,445 --> 00:33:02,885
Speaker 1: truly generous love, which I'm great at as a friend,

561
00:33:03,445 --> 00:33:05,245
Speaker 1: and I'm great at as a family member, and I'm

562
00:33:05,285 --> 00:33:08,045
Speaker 1: great at as a community member. But if that should change,

563
00:33:08,645 --> 00:33:12,565
Speaker 1: then and I've got this sober dating plan that includes

564
00:33:12,565 --> 00:33:15,605
Speaker 1: items like no two week long first dates, Like You're

565
00:33:15,605 --> 00:33:17,645
Speaker 1: not going to go on a date with somebody and

566
00:33:17,685 --> 00:33:20,285
Speaker 1: two weeks later they're living with you, Like We're not

567
00:33:20,325 --> 00:33:23,645
Speaker 1: doing that, you know, Like no opening bank accounts for

568
00:33:23,725 --> 00:33:29,165
Speaker 1: people like, no lavish gifts to try to seduce. No,

569
00:33:29,165 --> 00:33:32,485
Speaker 1: no going on big, glamorous romantic trips with someone I'm

570
00:33:32,605 --> 00:33:35,205
Speaker 1: who I've only known for a month because I've got

571
00:33:35,205 --> 00:33:38,125
Speaker 1: to stay in reality and make sure that, like anyone

572
00:33:38,125 --> 00:33:39,965
Speaker 1: can fall in love with someone on a tropical island,

573
00:33:40,045 --> 00:33:41,965
Speaker 1: we have to see whether this actually works in the

574
00:33:42,005 --> 00:33:46,645
Speaker 1: real world. And no constant texting between between dates, because

575
00:33:46,645 --> 00:33:48,645
Speaker 1: I can get sucked into that and lost in that,

576
00:33:48,805 --> 00:33:50,685
Speaker 1: and I have to go like, if I'm going to

577
00:33:50,685 --> 00:33:52,645
Speaker 1: go on a date, I have to come home afterwards

578
00:33:53,405 --> 00:33:56,325
Speaker 1: and I won't see you again for a week, because

579
00:33:56,365 --> 00:33:58,485
Speaker 1: I need to remember that I love my life. I

580
00:33:58,485 --> 00:34:00,845
Speaker 1: need to remember that I have friends, that I have

581
00:34:00,885 --> 00:34:03,845
Speaker 1: a dog, that I have a career, you know, all

582
00:34:03,885 --> 00:34:06,885
Speaker 1: these things that I throw away when I fall into

583
00:34:06,925 --> 00:34:09,805
Speaker 1: desperate obsession and fixation on somebody I've got hold on to.

584
00:34:10,005 --> 00:34:13,205
Speaker 1: So you know, that's a plan that's in place. But

585
00:34:13,365 --> 00:34:17,685
Speaker 1: I have not gotten a signal yet, either internally or

586
00:34:17,725 --> 00:34:22,125
Speaker 1: from what I call God, that it would be beneficial

587
00:34:22,125 --> 00:34:24,245
Speaker 1: for me to partner up with anybody right now. And

588
00:34:24,285 --> 00:34:29,205
Speaker 1: I also think that my enjoyment that I'm experiencing of

589
00:34:29,285 --> 00:34:32,845
Speaker 1: living a drama free life and living in a self

590
00:34:32,885 --> 00:34:35,845
Speaker 1: partnered way is such a delight that I don't really

591
00:34:35,925 --> 00:34:38,125
Speaker 1: want to give it up. And I feel it's also

592
00:34:38,165 --> 00:34:40,605
Speaker 1: an amends to my younger self, who never got the

593
00:34:40,605 --> 00:34:43,845
Speaker 1: opportunity to live alone and never got the opportunity to

594
00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:47,045
Speaker 1: learn how to adult because I was always enmeshed in

595
00:34:47,165 --> 00:34:48,285
Speaker 1: one person after another.

596
00:34:48,725 --> 00:34:51,805
Speaker 3: And I've heard you say that you're the opposite of

597
00:34:51,805 --> 00:34:54,725
Speaker 3: lonely living alone, that you're so much less lonely than

598
00:34:54,765 --> 00:34:58,685
Speaker 3: you have been in many romantic relationships. I think that's

599
00:34:58,925 --> 00:35:00,885
Speaker 3: what a lot of women are afraid of, is that

600
00:35:01,405 --> 00:35:05,205
Speaker 3: who am I without all these people who need me?

601
00:35:06,365 --> 00:35:09,885
Speaker 3: But for you, it seems that life is beautiful.

602
00:35:10,565 --> 00:35:12,565
Speaker 1: Yeah. The way I describe my life right now is

603
00:35:12,565 --> 00:35:18,085
Speaker 1: that it's blooming. And another description that I definition that

604
00:35:18,125 --> 00:35:22,405
Speaker 1: I love of addiction is addiction is giving up everything

605
00:35:22,445 --> 00:35:25,805
Speaker 1: for one thing, and recovery is giving up one thing

606
00:35:26,005 --> 00:35:32,165
Speaker 1: for everything. And my path over the last seven years

607
00:35:32,165 --> 00:35:38,885
Speaker 1: of giving up this lifetime fixation on partnership and co

608
00:35:39,045 --> 00:35:43,525
Speaker 1: mingling the lives is that everything else has gotten my

609
00:35:43,685 --> 00:35:46,445
Speaker 1: energy that didn't use to. I mean, I've written three

610
00:35:46,525 --> 00:35:50,445
Speaker 1: books in the last six years. That's insane. I've never

611
00:35:50,605 --> 00:35:54,045
Speaker 1: had such creative power as I have right now. And

612
00:35:54,605 --> 00:35:57,325
Speaker 1: the loneliest I have ever been in my entire life.

613
00:35:57,365 --> 00:35:58,925
Speaker 1: I can if I were to think of the top

614
00:35:59,045 --> 00:36:02,125
Speaker 1: three loneliest moments of my life. In each case there

615
00:36:02,205 --> 00:36:05,725
Speaker 1: was somebody else in the bed with me. Two can

616
00:36:05,765 --> 00:36:08,045
Speaker 1: be much lonelier than one. And I think a lot

617
00:36:08,085 --> 00:36:11,285
Speaker 1: of us know what I mean when I say that

618
00:36:11,405 --> 00:36:19,125
Speaker 1: the feeling of this incredible gap and distance and closeheartedness

619
00:36:19,365 --> 00:36:21,925
Speaker 1: between you and the person who you're with is such

620
00:36:21,925 --> 00:36:26,245
Speaker 1: an awful kind of loneliness. So I live alone, but

621
00:36:26,325 --> 00:36:31,885
Speaker 1: I I'm in engagement with my entire life in this

622
00:36:32,045 --> 00:36:34,965
Speaker 1: in this really vivid way. And again this is I

623
00:36:35,045 --> 00:36:38,045
Speaker 1: can't be clear enough. This is just my own experience,

624
00:36:38,645 --> 00:36:41,965
Speaker 1: and this is not like, it's not a prospect book is.

625
00:36:42,845 --> 00:36:45,005
Speaker 1: I hope that nothing in the book is prescriptive, and

626
00:36:45,045 --> 00:36:47,965
Speaker 1: I hope that nothing that I ever share is prescriptive.

627
00:36:48,325 --> 00:36:51,965
Speaker 1: I'm just telling what my life feels like right now.

628
00:36:52,085 --> 00:36:54,885
Speaker 1: And if somebody moved into my house right now would

629
00:36:54,925 --> 00:36:57,885
Speaker 1: feel like a home invasion. I'd be why are your

630
00:36:57,965 --> 00:37:01,685
Speaker 1: shoes here? Why are you like? Why are your things here?

631
00:37:01,965 --> 00:37:04,765
Speaker 1: Why are your things here? Like when my plants and

632
00:37:04,925 --> 00:37:09,205
Speaker 1: my books and my like my whole life is mine

633
00:37:09,525 --> 00:37:12,245
Speaker 1: for the first time and my body is Mike for

634
00:37:12,285 --> 00:37:15,405
Speaker 1: the first time, And that's something that has been in

635
00:37:15,605 --> 00:37:17,405
Speaker 1: a constantly unfolded joy.

636
00:37:17,245 --> 00:37:23,485
Speaker 3: As well going back to the story of Raya in

637
00:37:23,565 --> 00:37:27,285
Speaker 3: the book. Now, you just took us through the nice, Eat, pray,

638
00:37:27,365 --> 00:37:33,165
Speaker 3: love lady plotting murder. After that period you move away,

639
00:37:33,605 --> 00:37:35,845
Speaker 3: you move away from Raya at that time, but you

640
00:37:35,965 --> 00:37:40,565
Speaker 3: come back together for her final weeks with another of

641
00:37:40,965 --> 00:37:46,525
Speaker 3: Raya's loved ones, And what you write about that is

642
00:37:46,725 --> 00:37:49,085
Speaker 3: so again, so truthful.

643
00:37:49,925 --> 00:37:50,805
Speaker 2: I think anyone.

644
00:37:50,525 --> 00:37:52,725
Speaker 3: Who's been with somebody who's dying and thought it was

645
00:37:52,765 --> 00:37:55,445
Speaker 3: going to be peaceful and gorgeous like in the movies,

646
00:37:55,485 --> 00:37:57,245
Speaker 3: and there's everything's gorgeous.

647
00:37:57,485 --> 00:37:58,205
Speaker 2: You write with.

648
00:37:58,285 --> 00:38:02,845
Speaker 3: Such truth, of course, but also little touches of humor.

649
00:38:03,525 --> 00:38:06,525
Speaker 3: Can you just tell me about the night that you

650
00:38:06,645 --> 00:38:09,485
Speaker 3: and and the other loved ones.

651
00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:11,885
Speaker 2: Around thought that Raya was going to die?

652
00:38:13,005 --> 00:38:13,245
Speaker 1: Yeah?

653
00:38:13,845 --> 00:38:15,485
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about Christmas night?

654
00:38:15,565 --> 00:38:17,725
Speaker 1: Please? Yeah.

655
00:38:17,805 --> 00:38:21,365
Speaker 3: So, I don't know if it's appropriate, but I actually

656
00:38:21,445 --> 00:38:26,285
Speaker 3: left out loud loud it's so.

657
00:38:25,045 --> 00:38:27,805
Speaker 1: Good, Oh my God. And a hospice nurse one time

658
00:38:27,885 --> 00:38:29,845
Speaker 1: said to me, if you cannot laugh at death, you've

659
00:38:29,845 --> 00:38:31,485
Speaker 1: got to get out of show business because like, there

660
00:38:31,485 --> 00:38:36,005
Speaker 1: are so many I mean, you know this like like

661
00:38:36,325 --> 00:38:39,445
Speaker 1: ridiculous and embarrassing, and they are so like and so

662
00:38:39,605 --> 00:38:42,845
Speaker 1: is death at times. So at the end of Raya's life,

663
00:38:43,485 --> 00:38:48,005
Speaker 1: her ex wife Gigi, and her ex girlfriend Stacy and

664
00:38:48,125 --> 00:38:52,645
Speaker 1: I became her three caregivers. A lot of people who

665
00:38:52,685 --> 00:38:54,845
Speaker 1: are in queer relationships have told me like, oh, yeah,

666
00:38:54,885 --> 00:38:58,685
Speaker 1: that's the thing, you know, like that, that's like definitely

667
00:38:58,685 --> 00:39:02,565
Speaker 1: a lesbian thing, you know, like And and we we

668
00:39:02,725 --> 00:39:06,085
Speaker 1: came together as her primary as her prime primary caregivers,

669
00:39:06,325 --> 00:39:08,965
Speaker 1: her sister. There were other people who came in and out,

670
00:39:08,965 --> 00:39:12,685
Speaker 1: but we we like canceled our whole lives and moved

671
00:39:12,885 --> 00:39:15,365
Speaker 1: to Detroit to take care of her when she was dying.

672
00:39:15,885 --> 00:39:19,845
Speaker 1: And on Christmas night, I was sleeping with ray and

673
00:39:19,925 --> 00:39:21,805
Speaker 1: I woke up to give her meds at four o'clock

674
00:39:21,805 --> 00:39:24,245
Speaker 1: in the morning. And at this point she was you know,

675
00:39:24,805 --> 00:39:27,165
Speaker 1: the hospice people had said, like, she's very at any

676
00:39:27,205 --> 00:39:32,045
Speaker 1: time she could die, and her I could tell that

677
00:39:32,085 --> 00:39:35,765
Speaker 1: she was dying. Her lips were blue, her skin was cold,

678
00:39:35,925 --> 00:39:39,085
Speaker 1: she was non responsive. I couldn't wake her up, her

679
00:39:39,125 --> 00:39:44,085
Speaker 1: breathing was ragged, and it just was so clear that

680
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:46,365
Speaker 1: this was the moment. And there was this kind of poignant,

681
00:39:46,445 --> 00:39:49,325
Speaker 1: devastating poetry to the fact that it was Christmas night

682
00:39:49,405 --> 00:39:53,645
Speaker 1: as well. And I went and got I woke up

683
00:39:53,885 --> 00:39:56,925
Speaker 1: Gigi and Stacy and I said, I think it was

684
00:39:57,125 --> 00:39:59,805
Speaker 1: about four am, and I said, I think it's I

685
00:39:59,805 --> 00:40:02,005
Speaker 1: think it's happening. I think she's dying. And we all

686
00:40:02,565 --> 00:40:05,325
Speaker 1: climbed into bed with her and wrapped our bodies around her,

687
00:40:05,405 --> 00:40:10,405
Speaker 1: and Gigi put on sacred music and Stacey lit a candle,

688
00:40:10,445 --> 00:40:12,285
Speaker 1: and then we just took turns talking to her, because

689
00:40:12,285 --> 00:40:15,245
Speaker 1: they say that hearing is the last thing that a

690
00:40:15,285 --> 00:40:18,165
Speaker 1: person loses as they're dying, and so we we just

691
00:40:18,885 --> 00:40:21,285
Speaker 1: told her how much we loved her and how much

692
00:40:21,325 --> 00:40:24,005
Speaker 1: she meant to us, and what a grand being she

693
00:40:24,165 --> 00:40:27,725
Speaker 1: was and how she had transformed us all. And then

694
00:40:27,725 --> 00:40:30,165
Speaker 1: it got really, really really quiet, just as the sun

695
00:40:30,325 --> 00:40:33,165
Speaker 1: was coming up, and we just all fell into this deep,

696
00:40:33,205 --> 00:40:36,285
Speaker 1: sacred silence, at which point Raya suddenly opened her eyes

697
00:40:36,325 --> 00:40:45,005
Speaker 1: and said, what the fuck are you guys doing? And

698
00:40:45,045 --> 00:40:48,125
Speaker 1: we were like, oh, nothing, and she's like why are she?

699
00:40:48,125 --> 00:40:51,325
Speaker 1: She had Stacy in our bed, babe, and I'm like,

700
00:40:51,365 --> 00:40:53,245
Speaker 1: they're not, and like they roll out of but you know,

701
00:40:53,285 --> 00:40:55,805
Speaker 1: like we we all moments that earlier had been just

702
00:40:55,845 --> 00:41:00,005
Speaker 1: like weeping these poignant, beautiful tears, and she's like, are

703
00:41:00,005 --> 00:41:04,205
Speaker 1: you pretty candles were just doing you blowing out the candles,

704
00:41:04,565 --> 00:41:07,485
Speaker 1: blowing out the candles, taking the music that the sacred

705
00:41:07,565 --> 00:41:10,805
Speaker 1: music off, you know. She's like, what, Like, you guys

706
00:41:10,845 --> 00:41:14,165
Speaker 1: are weird, Like what are you literally doing? We're like nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing,

707
00:41:14,245 --> 00:41:19,125
Speaker 1: definitely not waiting for you to die. And then she

708
00:41:19,245 --> 00:41:21,205
Speaker 1: said she sat up, turned the light on, lit a

709
00:41:21,205 --> 00:41:25,485
Speaker 1: cigarette and said what day is it today? And I

710
00:41:25,525 --> 00:41:28,485
Speaker 1: said it's it's December twenty sixth, and she said, cool,

711
00:41:28,525 --> 00:41:30,565
Speaker 1: I want to go hit that sixty percent off sale

712
00:41:30,565 --> 00:41:35,125
Speaker 1: at Lululemon. And that is what we did. God help us,

713
00:41:35,165 --> 00:41:37,365
Speaker 1: that is what we did. Like and people who have

714
00:41:37,445 --> 00:41:39,165
Speaker 1: been with people who are dying know this. It's like

715
00:41:39,285 --> 00:41:41,405
Speaker 1: you think you know. And I remember calling my mom

716
00:41:41,405 --> 00:41:44,125
Speaker 1: because my mom's a nurse, and I was like, this

717
00:41:44,165 --> 00:41:48,285
Speaker 1: is such a rollercoaster, you know, like we're saying our goodbyes,

718
00:41:48,325 --> 00:41:51,645
Speaker 1: and then now she's shopping for ath leisure wear at

719
00:41:51,645 --> 00:41:54,645
Speaker 1: a Christmas sale, like, what what's going on? And my

720
00:41:54,725 --> 00:41:58,525
Speaker 1: Mom's like, nobody knows. This is why death is sort

721
00:41:58,565 --> 00:42:01,005
Speaker 1: of the great one of the many reasons that death

722
00:42:01,045 --> 00:42:03,245
Speaker 1: is the great mystery and the great equalizer. It's like

723
00:42:04,845 --> 00:42:07,405
Speaker 1: nobody can tell you when she's going to die. This

724
00:42:07,485 --> 00:42:10,285
Speaker 1: is she's in a negotiation between herself and her own

725
00:42:10,325 --> 00:42:13,525
Speaker 1: death right now. And it could be weeks, it could

726
00:42:13,605 --> 00:42:17,125
Speaker 1: be hours, it could be you know. I mean, she

727
00:42:17,165 --> 00:42:19,485
Speaker 1: had bound she had come back to life so many

728
00:42:19,485 --> 00:42:23,125
Speaker 1: times in her life as a drug atticude flatlined multiple

729
00:42:23,205 --> 00:42:26,965
Speaker 1: times and had been reborn. She'd reinvented herself so many times.

730
00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:31,645
Speaker 1: I at the end was like, she might just not die, like.

731
00:42:31,645 --> 00:42:33,005
Speaker 2: She might be unkillable.

732
00:42:33,645 --> 00:42:37,645
Speaker 1: She just might be unkillable, Like she just might not

733
00:42:37,885 --> 00:42:40,725
Speaker 1: die of stage four pinker attic of liver cancer because

734
00:42:41,125 --> 00:42:45,365
Speaker 1: so far, like she's such a monster, she's such so

735
00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:47,725
Speaker 1: like made of titanium or something. I don't even know

736
00:42:47,765 --> 00:42:51,925
Speaker 1: what this person's constitution was. But yeah, that was one

737
00:42:51,965 --> 00:42:54,525
Speaker 1: of the That was one of the more like sort

738
00:42:54,525 --> 00:42:57,965
Speaker 1: of extraordinary comic moments we went through.

739
00:43:02,405 --> 00:43:04,365
Speaker 3: We're going to take a Moment's bright kid, but in

740
00:43:04,405 --> 00:43:07,205
Speaker 3: a moment, I'll be back with mol from Liz Gilbert.

741
00:43:11,165 --> 00:43:13,565
Speaker 3: After Ray's death, you went straight back to work. You

742
00:43:13,645 --> 00:43:16,725
Speaker 3: write about the fact that two weeks after she was

743
00:43:16,765 --> 00:43:19,405
Speaker 3: gone you were back on stage. Is talking to people

744
00:43:20,085 --> 00:43:26,165
Speaker 3: You were immediately back wanting to make money, get build

745
00:43:26,285 --> 00:43:32,005
Speaker 3: new relationships, when you look at that period of time, now, well,

746
00:43:32,045 --> 00:43:32,525
Speaker 3: how do you.

747
00:43:32,485 --> 00:43:34,645
Speaker 2: See it perfect?

748
00:43:34,965 --> 00:43:39,125
Speaker 1: You know, like just perfect. It is what it absolutely

749
00:43:39,165 --> 00:43:42,845
Speaker 1: had to be. And me being who I am and

750
00:43:42,885 --> 00:43:48,045
Speaker 1: who I was, you know, resilience is like baked into

751
00:43:48,125 --> 00:43:51,285
Speaker 1: me as it's part of like my family code. You

752
00:43:51,365 --> 00:43:55,045
Speaker 1: just you know, I come from Scannavian dairy farmers, from

753
00:43:55,045 --> 00:43:59,405
Speaker 1: the dust bowl. It's like you work like you just work,

754
00:43:59,445 --> 00:44:03,005
Speaker 1: and you don't complain and you don't wallow. You just

755
00:44:03,165 --> 00:44:07,205
Speaker 1: get back at it. And that's all I ever saw,

756
00:44:07,765 --> 00:44:10,205
Speaker 1: you know, And that's all I knew to do. And

757
00:44:10,645 --> 00:44:12,845
Speaker 1: I also don't think it was such a bad idea

758
00:44:12,965 --> 00:44:18,085
Speaker 1: because I had been so depleted by being a caregiver

759
00:44:18,285 --> 00:44:23,685
Speaker 1: that there was a vitality that I regained by going

760
00:44:23,725 --> 00:44:28,045
Speaker 1: back out into the field that I'm good at, you know,

761
00:44:28,165 --> 00:44:31,045
Speaker 1: like I maybe wasn't as good a caregiver as I

762
00:44:31,045 --> 00:44:32,405
Speaker 1: thought I was going to be, but I'm a good

763
00:44:32,405 --> 00:44:34,605
Speaker 1: public speaker and I'm a good writer, and I have

764
00:44:34,725 --> 00:44:38,285
Speaker 1: this career that I love, and so being reminded that

765
00:44:39,325 --> 00:44:42,965
Speaker 1: that I'm not just you know, a bedside nurse or

766
00:44:43,325 --> 00:44:47,165
Speaker 1: shadowed widow. I also am this person in my own

767
00:44:47,245 --> 00:44:49,965
Speaker 1: right who has not taken care of her life at

768
00:44:49,965 --> 00:44:52,845
Speaker 1: all for the last eighteen months, and who also had

769
00:44:52,885 --> 00:44:57,245
Speaker 1: just spent a dump truck of money and needed to

770
00:44:58,445 --> 00:45:02,245
Speaker 1: make needed to make money. But the final reason that

771
00:45:02,645 --> 00:45:05,805
Speaker 1: I would say that it was perfect was because I

772
00:45:05,845 --> 00:45:08,365
Speaker 1: don't think there's a right or wrong way to grieve.

773
00:45:09,005 --> 00:45:15,205
Speaker 1: And grief is an experience of unbearable pain like that,

774
00:45:15,645 --> 00:45:18,885
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe not unbearable, because we bear it right

775
00:45:19,605 --> 00:45:22,845
Speaker 1: up there on the edge of unbearable and whatever you

776
00:45:22,925 --> 00:45:26,845
Speaker 1: have got to do to move through that is fine.

777
00:45:26,925 --> 00:45:30,285
Speaker 1: And people respond to grief in all sorts of different ways,

778
00:45:30,685 --> 00:45:33,285
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of judgment that we have of

779
00:45:33,325 --> 00:45:36,365
Speaker 1: one another about the way that people are grieving, like

780
00:45:36,405 --> 00:45:39,365
Speaker 1: they're not grieving right, you know, or they're in denial,

781
00:45:39,685 --> 00:45:43,485
Speaker 1: or they rebounded right back into another relationship, or you know,

782
00:45:43,525 --> 00:45:46,845
Speaker 1: there's there's this multitude of they're not allowing them to

783
00:45:46,845 --> 00:45:49,445
Speaker 1: alves to feel their feelings, they're feeling their feelings too much.

784
00:45:49,525 --> 00:45:55,645
Speaker 1: They're shutting down, you know, like they're frozen. Leave everyone alone,

785
00:45:56,045 --> 00:46:00,125
Speaker 1: you know, like leave everyone alone. Being human is very hard.

786
00:46:00,245 --> 00:46:02,805
Speaker 1: Being grief is the hardest part of being human. And

787
00:46:03,805 --> 00:46:06,045
Speaker 1: the thing I know about grief is that it's a

788
00:46:06,085 --> 00:46:09,085
Speaker 1: bill that has to be paid eventually. It's a bill

789
00:46:09,125 --> 00:46:12,685
Speaker 1: of tremendous, unbearable sorrow that has to be paid eventually.

790
00:46:12,685 --> 00:46:15,565
Speaker 1: You either pay it right away or it'll catch up

791
00:46:15,605 --> 00:46:17,765
Speaker 1: with you later and knock on your door and you'll

792
00:46:17,765 --> 00:46:24,365
Speaker 1: pay it later. And I paid my grief debt in

793
00:46:24,605 --> 00:46:31,325
Speaker 1: installments and then in some massive payments that came years later.

794
00:46:31,765 --> 00:46:35,965
Speaker 3: The book begins with a visitation from Raya of sorts.

795
00:46:36,005 --> 00:46:38,685
Speaker 3: You say that my love was in the room, and

796
00:46:38,685 --> 00:46:41,085
Speaker 3: you're like, that's an amazing feat because she died six

797
00:46:41,165 --> 00:46:45,285
Speaker 3: years ago. Do you know what Raya thinks of this book?

798
00:46:45,285 --> 00:46:45,805
Speaker 2: Do you care?

799
00:46:46,445 --> 00:46:49,125
Speaker 1: I care what everyone thinks of this Listen, I'm the

800
00:46:49,165 --> 00:46:51,805
Speaker 1: one who the world's champion people.

801
00:46:51,805 --> 00:46:55,445
Speaker 3: Please, mate, Well, it's wonderful, so you're fine. But also

802
00:46:55,445 --> 00:46:57,045
Speaker 3: I know you're doing a lot of work to get

803
00:46:57,085 --> 00:46:57,685
Speaker 3: away from that.

804
00:46:58,885 --> 00:47:00,205
Speaker 1: I am getting a lot of work to get away

805
00:47:00,245 --> 00:47:04,005
Speaker 1: from that. I have to say, quite honestly, I don't know.

806
00:47:04,605 --> 00:47:07,445
Speaker 1: And I know that she wanted me to do it.

807
00:47:07,645 --> 00:47:11,525
Speaker 1: I know that she I know that she loved the truth.

808
00:47:12,485 --> 00:47:15,085
Speaker 1: I know that she wrote about her own darkness and

809
00:47:15,125 --> 00:47:18,485
Speaker 1: her own addiction very openly in her own memoir. Yes,

810
00:47:18,725 --> 00:47:22,685
Speaker 1: and in autobiographical films that she made and music that

811
00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:27,525
Speaker 1: she made. Her whole artistic expression sprung out of revealing her,

812
00:47:27,685 --> 00:47:30,325
Speaker 1: letting herself be seen in mind to be seen. But

813
00:47:30,885 --> 00:47:35,285
Speaker 1: ultimately there was a point in the writing of the

814
00:47:35,325 --> 00:47:39,685
Speaker 1: book where I had to maybe even go past the

815
00:47:39,765 --> 00:47:42,205
Speaker 1: level of truth that even Raya would have been comfortable with,

816
00:47:43,165 --> 00:47:47,365
Speaker 1: because there was this feeling of like, if you're going

817
00:47:47,445 --> 00:47:50,365
Speaker 1: to do this, and you're going to tell the story,

818
00:47:50,445 --> 00:47:54,685
Speaker 1: then you have got to tell the entire story, and

819
00:47:54,685 --> 00:47:58,365
Speaker 1: that includes not only excavating Ray's darkness but my own.

820
00:47:59,085 --> 00:48:03,365
Speaker 1: And I don't feel her as much anymore. I mean,

821
00:48:03,405 --> 00:48:06,565
Speaker 1: in the immediacy after her death, she was as vivid

822
00:48:06,645 --> 00:48:08,565
Speaker 1: and present to me as you are right now. I mean,

823
00:48:08,605 --> 00:48:13,565
Speaker 1: she was right here, and I have rare encounters now

824
00:48:13,605 --> 00:48:16,965
Speaker 1: with her spirit. And I think that part of the

825
00:48:17,045 --> 00:48:21,965
Speaker 1: sort of parceling out of grief is that you lose

826
00:48:22,005 --> 00:48:24,965
Speaker 1: the person and then you lose the feeling of them,

827
00:48:25,605 --> 00:48:30,485
Speaker 1: you know, like after that in my own theology, the

828
00:48:30,525 --> 00:48:34,205
Speaker 1: way that I perceived that what I think has happened

829
00:48:34,485 --> 00:48:39,045
Speaker 1: is that her spirit has moved on from me. I

830
00:48:39,085 --> 00:48:41,445
Speaker 1: don't know that it has moved on from everybody that

831
00:48:41,525 --> 00:48:44,125
Speaker 1: she loved, but one of the you know, she used

832
00:48:44,165 --> 00:48:46,765
Speaker 1: to promise. She promised me, I'm not going to leave

833
00:48:46,805 --> 00:48:49,085
Speaker 1: until both of us are ready, and I will won't

834
00:48:49,165 --> 00:48:51,685
Speaker 1: leave you until I know that you can stand on

835
00:48:51,725 --> 00:48:53,925
Speaker 1: your own two feet in every circumstance of your life.

836
00:48:53,925 --> 00:48:56,485
Speaker 1: That was a promise she made, and in fact, she died.

837
00:48:57,765 --> 00:49:01,685
Speaker 1: Her body died before I was ready and before I

838
00:49:01,725 --> 00:49:03,925
Speaker 1: knew how to stand on my own two feet, but

839
00:49:04,005 --> 00:49:08,165
Speaker 1: her spirit stuck around for those first few heroin years.

840
00:49:08,805 --> 00:49:12,965
Speaker 1: And now that I am standing on my own two

841
00:49:12,965 --> 00:49:15,725
Speaker 1: feet and taking care of my own life and knowing

842
00:49:15,765 --> 00:49:19,485
Speaker 1: how to be accountable, learning how to set boundaries, learning

843
00:49:19,485 --> 00:49:24,165
Speaker 1: how to say no, learning how to learning what's healthy

844
00:49:24,165 --> 00:49:26,445
Speaker 1: for me and what isn't healthy, all these things that

845
00:49:26,485 --> 00:49:29,685
Speaker 1: it's taken me so long to learn. It's as if

846
00:49:29,685 --> 00:49:34,125
Speaker 1: I feel her spirit backing off, like Okay, Liz is

847
00:49:34,165 --> 00:49:39,485
Speaker 1: good now and I can go into the mystery. That's

848
00:49:39,525 --> 00:49:40,565
Speaker 1: how I like to think of it.

849
00:49:41,045 --> 00:49:43,725
Speaker 3: We started this conversation talking about truth, and as you

850
00:49:43,805 --> 00:49:46,285
Speaker 3: just said that, you do wonder if this book has

851
00:49:46,285 --> 00:49:49,685
Speaker 3: gone gone past a level of truth, of even that

852
00:49:50,445 --> 00:49:52,845
Speaker 3: you've been writing about your life, obviously in a very

853
00:49:52,845 --> 00:49:55,685
Speaker 3: public way. It's almost twenty years since Eat, Pray, Love

854
00:49:55,725 --> 00:49:58,205
Speaker 3: and that. But you talk about that very sudden fame

855
00:49:58,445 --> 00:50:01,405
Speaker 3: in the book, and you talk about this sudden responsibility

856
00:50:01,445 --> 00:50:03,685
Speaker 3: that apparently you've got to fix the world now and

857
00:50:03,765 --> 00:50:06,805
Speaker 3: you're the wisest person in it. You must have learned

858
00:50:06,805 --> 00:50:11,445
Speaker 3: an enormous amount about how to care about what everybody

859
00:50:11,485 --> 00:50:15,205
Speaker 3: thinks about this book, about your life, about your choices,

860
00:50:15,565 --> 00:50:18,845
Speaker 3: and how to be very true to that. What's your

861
00:50:18,885 --> 00:50:23,365
Speaker 3: relationship like now? With all you know for how this

862
00:50:23,405 --> 00:50:24,965
Speaker 3: is going to be received.

863
00:50:25,405 --> 00:50:30,365
Speaker 1: I feel really relaxed about it. To me that the

864
00:50:30,525 --> 00:50:36,205
Speaker 1: difficult part of this book was the living of the story,

865
00:50:36,245 --> 00:50:42,725
Speaker 1: that the aftermath of the story, the incredibly hard work

866
00:50:42,805 --> 00:50:47,525
Speaker 1: that I've put into making addiction recovery this central focus

867
00:50:47,525 --> 00:50:51,245
Speaker 1: of my entire life, and learning how to take care

868
00:50:51,285 --> 00:50:54,845
Speaker 1: of myself, and then figuring out how to freaking write

869
00:50:54,885 --> 00:50:58,125
Speaker 1: this thing, you know, and how to tell this at

870
00:50:58,165 --> 00:51:00,445
Speaker 1: many times what felt like a kind of untellable story,

871
00:51:00,525 --> 00:51:03,165
Speaker 1: not even necessarily because of how harrowing it is, but

872
00:51:03,325 --> 00:51:05,965
Speaker 1: just like, how do you tell? How do you tell

873
00:51:05,965 --> 00:51:11,445
Speaker 1: the story? You know, like as a creator and with

874
00:51:11,565 --> 00:51:16,485
Speaker 1: its completion, that's it, My work is done, you know,

875
00:51:17,125 --> 00:51:19,005
Speaker 1: like and now I'm going to do a different kind

876
00:51:19,045 --> 00:51:22,845
Speaker 1: of work, going out into the world on a publicity

877
00:51:22,925 --> 00:51:25,725
Speaker 1: tour and a speaking to her about the book. But

878
00:51:25,805 --> 00:51:30,245
Speaker 1: that's an entirely different thing that's not nearly as emotionally

879
00:51:30,365 --> 00:51:33,085
Speaker 1: arduous for me as the work of creating this thing was.

880
00:51:33,485 --> 00:51:36,725
Speaker 1: So I feel kind of like, I'm good, you know.

881
00:51:36,965 --> 00:51:40,045
Speaker 1: I like this thing that I've made. I feel that

882
00:51:40,125 --> 00:51:44,285
Speaker 1: it's brought closure and this sort of end of a

883
00:51:44,365 --> 00:51:48,445
Speaker 1: karmic cycle between me and Rhea that answered a lot

884
00:51:48,445 --> 00:51:50,485
Speaker 1: of the questions I set out to answer writing it,

885
00:51:51,285 --> 00:51:55,045
Speaker 1: and it's an offering, you know. And I think having

886
00:51:55,845 --> 00:51:58,445
Speaker 1: written about myself so much, but also I think this

887
00:51:58,525 --> 00:52:01,685
Speaker 1: is my tenth book. It's like I know at this point.

888
00:52:01,405 --> 00:52:08,885
Speaker 3: That look, I just make them what happens to them

889
00:52:08,925 --> 00:52:09,565
Speaker 3: when that wants.

890
00:52:09,725 --> 00:52:10,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're out there.

891
00:52:10,965 --> 00:52:13,885
Speaker 1: Whoever wants to be its friend can be its friend.

892
00:52:14,005 --> 00:52:18,045
Speaker 1: But it's not. I can't control that, and I don't

893
00:52:18,085 --> 00:52:20,165
Speaker 1: have to control that, and I don't have to manage that.

894
00:52:20,325 --> 00:52:24,325
Speaker 1: And people are allowed to have whatever feeling about it

895
00:52:24,365 --> 00:52:27,245
Speaker 1: that they have in the same way that I am

896
00:52:27,285 --> 00:52:29,725
Speaker 1: allowed to express myself in writing a book. People are

897
00:52:29,725 --> 00:52:32,765
Speaker 1: allowed to express what they think of me. You know

898
00:52:32,805 --> 00:52:34,765
Speaker 1: that's what it means to put yourself out there like that.

899
00:52:35,325 --> 00:52:38,285
Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel pretty chill about it.

900
00:52:38,845 --> 00:52:40,965
Speaker 3: Can I just ask you about the book's title about

901
00:52:40,965 --> 00:52:43,765
Speaker 3: all the Way to the River, because that actually means

902
00:52:43,805 --> 00:52:45,765
Speaker 3: something a bit different than I thought it did. Can

903
00:52:45,805 --> 00:52:48,765
Speaker 3: you explain what on all the Way to the River

904
00:52:48,885 --> 00:52:49,925
Speaker 3: Friend is?

905
00:52:51,165 --> 00:52:53,525
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a sweet thing that y used to say.

906
00:52:53,605 --> 00:52:55,045
Speaker 1: She used to say that I was her all the

907
00:52:55,045 --> 00:52:58,165
Speaker 1: Way to the River friend, And she had this metaphor

908
00:52:58,405 --> 00:53:01,845
Speaker 1: of friendship that was based on the geographical map of

909
00:53:01,885 --> 00:53:04,405
Speaker 1: downtown New York City, so you kind of have to

910
00:53:04,445 --> 00:53:06,645
Speaker 1: know New York's geography a little bit to get it.

911
00:53:06,725 --> 00:53:09,765
Speaker 1: But the way she explained it was she said, you know,

912
00:53:09,845 --> 00:53:13,365
Speaker 1: in your life, you've got these like very peripheral friends,

913
00:53:14,205 --> 00:53:18,965
Speaker 1: professional contacts, people that you are completely superficial with. And

914
00:53:19,085 --> 00:53:22,365
Speaker 1: she called those her fifth avenue friends because they're kind

915
00:53:22,365 --> 00:53:23,725
Speaker 1: of like right in the middle of the city. And

916
00:53:23,765 --> 00:53:26,845
Speaker 1: then your fourth and third avenue friends are friends that

917
00:53:26,885 --> 00:53:28,845
Speaker 1: you get a little bit more intimacy with and a

918
00:53:28,925 --> 00:53:30,845
Speaker 1: little closer to, and you let them see a little

919
00:53:30,845 --> 00:53:32,885
Speaker 1: bit more of your real life. And then you keep

920
00:53:32,925 --> 00:53:37,125
Speaker 1: going and you've got your second, first, second, first avenue friends,

921
00:53:37,485 --> 00:53:39,965
Speaker 1: and those are the people who you allowed to get

922
00:53:39,965 --> 00:53:43,925
Speaker 1: to know you and you know, to share some truths

923
00:53:43,965 --> 00:53:47,965
Speaker 1: about your life, and maybe you've started businesses together, been

924
00:53:48,005 --> 00:53:51,045
Speaker 1: to each other's weddings. There's a deeper level of intimacy.

925
00:53:51,525 --> 00:53:52,885
Speaker 1: And she would say it's not untill you get to

926
00:53:52,925 --> 00:53:56,965
Speaker 1: your alphabet city friends, your avenue ABC and D friends

927
00:53:57,005 --> 00:54:00,525
Speaker 1: that you that you really get to real intimacy, like

928
00:54:00,525 --> 00:54:02,965
Speaker 1: these are the people who know you, like the people

929
00:54:03,005 --> 00:54:05,965
Speaker 1: who bailed you out of jail, who know about the addiction,

930
00:54:06,205 --> 00:54:09,685
Speaker 1: whose couch you slept on during the divorce, you call

931
00:54:09,725 --> 00:54:10,885
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night when you're having a

932
00:54:10,885 --> 00:54:13,285
Speaker 1: panic attack, like the people who really really know you.

933
00:54:13,925 --> 00:54:16,005
Speaker 1: But she said, there's if you're very lucky, there's one

934
00:54:16,045 --> 00:54:19,525
Speaker 1: more level, and that's all the way to the East River.

935
00:54:20,005 --> 00:54:22,325
Speaker 1: And if you're very lucky, you might have one friend

936
00:54:22,325 --> 00:54:24,085
Speaker 1: in your life who will go all the way to

937
00:54:24,125 --> 00:54:28,125
Speaker 1: the river with you. And that's the person you could

938
00:54:28,125 --> 00:54:31,885
Speaker 1: never be anything but completely authentic with, the person who

939
00:54:32,085 --> 00:54:34,565
Speaker 1: knows you better than anyone. And she always called me,

940
00:54:34,645 --> 00:54:37,925
Speaker 1: long before we were a romantic couple, she called me

941
00:54:37,965 --> 00:54:39,685
Speaker 1: her all the way to the River friend, and I

942
00:54:39,765 --> 00:54:44,725
Speaker 1: was so proud of that and not but but and

943
00:54:44,765 --> 00:54:47,005
Speaker 1: anybody who's ever tried to walk from Fifth Avenue to

944
00:54:47,285 --> 00:54:49,285
Speaker 1: the East River in New York City knows it's not

945
00:54:49,525 --> 00:54:55,285
Speaker 1: necessarily a very nice walks.

946
00:54:53,005 --> 00:54:55,325
Speaker 2: In a very nice river, and the river's not a

947
00:54:55,365 --> 00:54:56,085
Speaker 2: very nice river.

948
00:54:56,165 --> 00:54:59,405
Speaker 1: And and but that's also part of really knowing somebody

949
00:54:59,605 --> 00:55:02,805
Speaker 1: is that you, in the end, you see everything, and

950
00:55:02,845 --> 00:55:06,125
Speaker 1: they see everything. And I can say with real confidence

951
00:55:06,325 --> 00:55:09,765
Speaker 1: that rayat Elias and I knew each other.

952
00:55:10,325 --> 00:55:12,485
Speaker 3: Liszt Do you think that if you had have painted

953
00:55:12,525 --> 00:55:17,565
Speaker 3: over some of the uglier, trickiest, smellier parts of the story,

954
00:55:18,485 --> 00:55:20,965
Speaker 3: how would life have gone? How would things be different?

955
00:55:22,405 --> 00:55:27,125
Speaker 1: Oh? Gosh. You know, there's a line that I love

956
00:55:27,205 --> 00:55:31,205
Speaker 1: from the great ancient Indian text, the Bug of the Gita,

957
00:55:31,405 --> 00:55:35,085
Speaker 1: that says it's better to live your own destiny imperfectly

958
00:55:35,365 --> 00:55:38,165
Speaker 1: than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life.

959
00:55:38,925 --> 00:55:43,165
Speaker 1: And I go back to that quote again and again.

960
00:55:43,365 --> 00:55:51,125
Speaker 1: I genuinely would rather live my own truth imperfectly and

961
00:55:51,205 --> 00:55:58,845
Speaker 1: messily and publicly and vulnerably, then live some lackered version

962
00:55:59,045 --> 00:56:01,765
Speaker 1: of an imitation of what I was taught life is

963
00:56:01,805 --> 00:56:04,885
Speaker 1: supposed to look like. And I also know this. I

964
00:56:04,965 --> 00:56:07,965
Speaker 1: know that every single time in my life that I

965
00:56:08,045 --> 00:56:12,045
Speaker 1: have tried to live my life in a respectable manner,

966
00:56:13,445 --> 00:56:17,885
Speaker 1: meaning like from what I was taught respectability is the

967
00:56:17,925 --> 00:56:20,245
Speaker 1: closest I've ever And I don't say this lightly. I

968
00:56:20,285 --> 00:56:22,165
Speaker 1: say this quite sincesarily. The closest I've ever come to

969
00:56:22,205 --> 00:56:25,685
Speaker 1: suicide in my life have been the times when I

970
00:56:25,685 --> 00:56:30,605
Speaker 1: have tried the hardest to color within the lines basically,

971
00:56:30,685 --> 00:56:33,245
Speaker 1: you know, and to live my life in a way

972
00:56:33,245 --> 00:56:38,605
Speaker 1: that will be pleasing and inoffensive and respected by others.

973
00:56:39,405 --> 00:56:44,325
Speaker 1: It is only when I can kind of eviscerate myself

974
00:56:45,645 --> 00:56:48,965
Speaker 1: and excavate and go down in there and find the

975
00:56:49,005 --> 00:56:52,685
Speaker 1: whole truth that I get well. And that's one of

976
00:56:52,725 --> 00:56:56,565
Speaker 1: the really wild and beautiful paradoxes about the healing journey

977
00:56:56,685 --> 00:57:00,845
Speaker 1: is some of this stuff is like some of these

978
00:57:00,885 --> 00:57:03,725
Speaker 1: things about ourselves. It's like, this is the last thing

979
00:57:03,885 --> 00:57:06,725
Speaker 1: in the world I want to be true about me. Yeah,

980
00:57:07,605 --> 00:57:10,205
Speaker 1: you know, this is the last thing in the world

981
00:57:10,285 --> 00:57:15,365
Speaker 1: I would want to be is an addict. And the

982
00:57:15,445 --> 00:57:16,765
Speaker 1: last thing in the world I would want to be

983
00:57:16,845 --> 00:57:20,085
Speaker 1: is powerless. Who wants to be powerless? You know? Like

984
00:57:20,325 --> 00:57:24,045
Speaker 1: our whole culture is about striving for power and yet

985
00:57:24,205 --> 00:57:28,725
Speaker 1: when I let go and unclench those white knuckled fists

986
00:57:29,685 --> 00:57:32,325
Speaker 1: and let my shoulders drop and just say I am

987
00:57:32,365 --> 00:57:38,165
Speaker 1: an addict and I am powerless over my addiction, there's

988
00:57:38,205 --> 00:57:44,285
Speaker 1: this tremendous release. And in that release, I think that

989
00:57:44,405 --> 00:57:48,805
Speaker 1: all the walls come down, and I can know myself,

990
00:57:48,925 --> 00:57:51,565
Speaker 1: and I can let others know me, and I can

991
00:57:51,605 --> 00:57:54,285
Speaker 1: know them, and that's ultimately what I think I came

992
00:57:54,325 --> 00:57:54,725
Speaker 1: here to do.

993
00:57:58,605 --> 00:58:02,205
Speaker 3: I hope that conversation does some justice to the brilliant,

994
00:58:02,485 --> 00:58:05,805
Speaker 3: beautiful and brutal complexity of all the Way to the River,

995
00:58:06,525 --> 00:58:08,725
Speaker 3: and to Liz Gilbert in general, because as I keep

996
00:58:08,765 --> 00:58:10,885
Speaker 3: telling anyone, he'll stand still long enough for me to

997
00:58:10,925 --> 00:58:13,965
Speaker 3: talk at them. There are two mind boggling strands to

998
00:58:14,045 --> 00:58:17,005
Speaker 3: this story. There's Raya and what happened in the final

999
00:58:17,045 --> 00:58:20,885
Speaker 3: months of this extraordinary life in this central relationship. And

1000
00:58:20,925 --> 00:58:24,245
Speaker 3: then there's the astonishing bravery of Liz turning the lens

1001
00:58:24,245 --> 00:58:27,925
Speaker 3: inwards and asking what was my part in all this?

1002
00:58:28,405 --> 00:58:29,645
Speaker 2: At different times in her life.

1003
00:58:29,725 --> 00:58:33,045
Speaker 3: Gilbert's personal writing has given us different gifts and granted

1004
00:58:33,125 --> 00:58:36,285
Speaker 3: us different permissions. With Eat, Pray, Love, she gave a

1005
00:58:36,325 --> 00:58:38,365
Speaker 3: generation of women the permission to go in search of

1006
00:58:38,405 --> 00:58:41,525
Speaker 3: themselves we've committed. She gave us permission to want the

1007
00:58:41,565 --> 00:58:44,285
Speaker 3: love we might have been convincing ourselves we were fine without,

1008
00:58:44,885 --> 00:58:47,365
Speaker 3: And now with all the way to the river, Liz

1009
00:58:47,405 --> 00:58:50,085
Speaker 3: is giving us permission to question why we've chained our

1010
00:58:50,165 --> 00:58:52,525
Speaker 3: self worth up in that pursuit of love in the

1011
00:58:52,565 --> 00:58:53,245
Speaker 3: first place.

1012
00:58:54,205 --> 00:58:56,085
Speaker 2: Maybe it's okay to just not.

1013
00:58:57,005 --> 00:58:58,405
Speaker 3: Links for where to buy the book are in the

1014
00:58:58,445 --> 00:59:01,205
Speaker 3: show notes, as is a link to Lizi's substack led

1015
00:59:01,285 --> 00:59:04,845
Speaker 3: Us from Love. Enormous Thanks to Liz Gilbert for talking

1016
00:59:04,885 --> 00:59:07,285
Speaker 3: with me today and to the No Filter team for

1017
00:59:07,405 --> 00:59:10,805
Speaker 3: letting me sit in the hosting seat. The executive producer

1018
00:59:10,845 --> 00:59:13,485
Speaker 3: of No Filter is n IAmA Brown. The senior producer

1019
00:59:13,565 --> 00:59:17,085
Speaker 3: is pre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown, Video

1020
00:59:17,205 --> 00:59:20,445
Speaker 3: editing is by Josh Green, and I'm your sometime host

1021
00:59:20,765 --> 00:59:21,565
Speaker 3: Holly wayIn Right.

1022
00:59:21,845 --> 00:59:22,725
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.