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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Momama's twice daily news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quickie. With all that's been happening with the US

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Speaker 1: election these past few weeks, you may have seen in

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Speaker 1: amongst all the Biden debate, Trump shooting and rise of

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Speaker 1: Harrs stories, something referred to as Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: They are attacking our most vulnerable citizens. The Project twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five plan is.

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Speaker 1: Not a game. Before we break down what this document

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Speaker 1: hopes to achieve and why so many people are scared

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Speaker 1: of the impact it may have on not just Americans,

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Speaker 1: but on democracy as a whole. Let's get the latest

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Speaker 1: from the Quikie newsroom. Wednesday, July twenty five. Canoe and

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Speaker 1: slalom star Jess Fox has been announced as one of

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Speaker 1: Australia's flag bearers for the Paris Games opening ceremony. It

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Speaker 1: says she used Taylor Swift's ears to a concert to prepare.

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Speaker 1: Fox says she could have said no to the honor

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Speaker 1: when she was asked by Team Chef de Mission and

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Speaker 1: a meears two months ago because she starts her competition

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Speaker 1: just hours after the opening ceremony ends, but says she

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Speaker 1: prepared for it back when Taylor Swift was in town,

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Speaker 1: explaining how she busted into the arena, had the time

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Speaker 1: of her life, got home late, then prep for a

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Speaker 1: simulation of competition the next day, after which she said

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Speaker 1: she felt ready. Fox will be joined by hockey great

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Speaker 1: Eddie Ockenden as the Australian flag bearers when the ceremony

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Speaker 1: kicks off at four am Saturday morning Australian Eastern Standard time. Ockenden,

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Speaker 1: whose competition also starts a few hours after the ceremony,

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Speaker 1: says he has three young boys, so he hasn't really

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Speaker 1: slept in seven years. Protesters have been arrested as they

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Speaker 1: attempted to disrupt Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech before

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Speaker 1: the US Congress. Netanyahu told the members of Congress that

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Speaker 1: those who were protesting outside on the streets over Israel's

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Speaker 1: war and Gaza were useful idiots for Israel's adversaries, saying

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Speaker 1: the hands of the Jewish state will never be shackled.

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Speaker 1: That saw shouts and applause from some in the Chamber,

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Speaker 1: but not from leading Democrats who declined to stand and

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Speaker 1: cheer Netna, who referred to the war saying they were

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Speaker 1: not just protecting themselves but America two, saying our enemies

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Speaker 1: are your enemies, Our fight is your fight, and our

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Speaker 1: victory will be your victory. More than fifty congressional Democrats

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Speaker 1: did not attend the speech in protest of netna Who's

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Speaker 1: handling of the war in Gaza. The man who shot

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Speaker 1: at former President Donald Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: before he was shot and killed by the Secret servers

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Speaker 1: had googled the jfk assassination the same day he registered

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Speaker 1: to attend the rally. The twenty year old searched for

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Speaker 1: how far away Oswald was from Kennedy the day the

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Speaker 1: US President was shot and killed while in the back

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Speaker 1: of a car and a motorcate in Texas in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three. Those who knew the man say he was

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Speaker 1: a loner, and police say the list of contacts in

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Speaker 1: his phone was short. The nursing home aid managing to

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Speaker 1: fire off eight rounds from an ar style rifle with

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Speaker 1: a collapsible stock before he himself was shot and killed.

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Speaker 1: Investigators say they're still trying to establish a motive. Social

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Speaker 1: media influencer and entrepreneurs Sophie Kashia has announced her third

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Speaker 1: pregnancy on Instagram. The former Young Mummy blogger shared a

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Speaker 1: photo of her lying in bed holding her two children,

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Speaker 1: ten year old Bobby and seven year old Florence, all

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Speaker 1: wearing matching pajamas, Kashia with her belly exposed, writing create

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Speaker 1: the life you want. She then wrote in her broadcast

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Speaker 1: channel that she had been mia and it might make

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Speaker 1: sense now because she says we're having a baby. Kashia

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Speaker 1: was married to AFL player and father of her two children,

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Speaker 1: Jared Kashia, until twenty nineteen, when she realized she was

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Speaker 1: attracted to women. She since dated Matilda's player Alana Kennedy

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Speaker 1: and AFL W star Sophie vander Hoovel. That's what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the world today. Next Project twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: the document that lays bare exactly what conservatives in power

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Speaker 1: in America want their country to look like, and for

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Speaker 1: many people, it doesn't include rights for them.

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Speaker 4: The left has engineered our government and institutions to reject

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Speaker 4: conservative ideology. The twenty twenty five Presidential Transition Project brings.

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Speaker 2: Together conservative organizations to ensure the policy and personnel are

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Speaker 2: in place. On January twentieth, twenty twenty five, using four pillars,

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Speaker 2: we are laying the foundation for the next president to

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Speaker 2: end Washington's bureaucracy.

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five is a more than nine hundred

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Speaker 1: page document that outlines the aspirations of a large group

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Speaker 1: of Republicans for the Heritage Foundation, one of the US's

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Speaker 1: most influential conservative policy groups. It's called the Mandate for Leadership,

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Speaker 1: the Conservative promise. Should Donald Trump win at the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four presidential election, the hope is that this handbook

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Speaker 1: will be handed to his administration to hit the ground running.

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Speaker 1: Each chapter has been written either by those who had

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Speaker 1: a high level role in the previous Trump administration or

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Speaker 1: who will likely have a role in his second should

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Speaker 1: he win in November. It outlines every policy area you

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Speaker 1: could imagine for a government, down to who should be

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Speaker 1: appointed in what roles, and their budgets. Congresswoman Ayana Presley

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Speaker 1: recently outlined what some of the handbook's policies contain.

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Speaker 3: The Department of Education would be eliminated, cutting students off

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Speaker 3: from civil rights protections, and ending essential Title one funding

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Speaker 3: for K through twelve schools. The Department of Justice would

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Speaker 3: go on a murdering screen. It would rush to use

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Speaker 3: the death penalty and expand its use to even more people.

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Speaker 3: Project twenty five not only cause for national book bands

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Speaker 3: in schools, but also creates a list of banned words.

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Speaker 3: Here are just a few of the words on the list, diversity, gender,

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Speaker 3: reproductive health, and of course, conservatives want to bend the

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Speaker 3: word abortion.

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Speaker 1: Some of the other policies include stripping the FBI from

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Speaker 1: being able to investigate cases where misinformation has been fed

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Speaker 1: to the public. It suggests increasing prosecutions against the providers

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Speaker 1: of abortions, including those who send out the abortion drug

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Speaker 1: in the mail. They hope to replace federal civil service

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Speaker 1: employees with conservative placements, something Trump ordered in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: but left office before it could be implemented, Biden then

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Speaker 1: rescinding the order. They also want to ensure the leadership

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Speaker 1: of departments like health are those who hold pro birth

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Speaker 1: and anti LGBTQIA plus values. They would like to deport

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Speaker 1: all illegal immigrants, including the group known as the Dreamers

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Speaker 1: who were brought into the country's children. Yeah wait to

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, Trump comes back in January.

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Speaker 4: I'll be honest here was coming back, and I will

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Speaker 4: run the biggest deportation operations countries ever seen.

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Speaker 1: That's Tom Homan, who served with Trump's first administration. More

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Speaker 1: on him in a bit. They also want to undo

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Speaker 1: environmental protections by dismantling federal agencies like the ones who

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Speaker 1: monitor oceans, weather, and climate change. US journalist and TV

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Speaker 1: show host Rachel Maddow explained to the panel on the

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Speaker 1: view what Project twenty twenty five essentially does.

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump He's trying to get rid of the American

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Speaker 5: system of government, and that means getting rid of a

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Speaker 5: government that does anything other than serve him. And that's

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Speaker 5: what Project twenty twenty five is all about. And that

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Speaker 5: exists everywhere in the world, and it has never existed

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Speaker 5: here before. And so I really think the bottom line

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Speaker 5: here is that Trump and his movement, they are not

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Speaker 5: running against democrats. They're running against democracy.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump recently claimed on social media that he doesn't

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Speaker 1: know who's behind Project twenty twenty five, despite one hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty people who worked in the previous Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: including six of his former cabinet secretaries. For people that

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Speaker 1: Trump nominated as ambassadors several enforces of his controversial immigration

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Speaker 1: cracked down during his first term, including Tom Hoeman, who

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Speaker 1: you heard from earlier, and his first deputy chief of staff.

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Speaker 1: Many of the groups advising the project are also connected

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Speaker 1: to Trump, including his lawyers and his former chief of

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Speaker 1: st After investigating through LinkedIn, CNN found two hundred and

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Speaker 1: forty people involved have ties to both Project twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five and Donald Trump. Despite this, Trump's been trying to

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Speaker 1: distance himself from the handbook, his campaign people saying for

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Speaker 1: months now that they do not speak for the former president,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time as he denies having links

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Speaker 1: to it. When the party met at the recent Republican

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Speaker 1: National Convention, there were many policies discussed that are mirrored

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Speaker 1: by Project twenty twenty five, and people around it were

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Speaker 1: present too.

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Speaker 4: The invasion on our southern border, we will stop at it.

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Speaker 4: We will stop at quickly. You heard Tom Holman yesterday.

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Speaker 4: Tom Holman put him in charge. And just sit back

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Speaker 4: and watch.

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Speaker 1: Yep, there's Tom Holman again, and here's him speaking in

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Speaker 1: his role as a fellow at the Heritage Foundation.

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Speaker 6: Nor one's off the table. If you're in the country legally.

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Speaker 4: If not, okay, if you're in the country legally, you're

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Speaker 4: better be looking over the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's the same Heritage Foundation that's behind Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five. So how much of Project twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: is something that can become a reality if Trump wins

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Speaker 1: at the November election, And just how much of a

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Speaker 1: threat to democracy is it. Amelia Lester is a deputy

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Speaker 1: editor at Foreign policy magazine Amelia. Right now, Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five is nothing more than a document of conservative

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Speaker 1: hopes and dreams. But how realistic is it that the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration, if he should win in November, will take

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Speaker 1: all these recommendations on board.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, the first thing that you have to know

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Speaker 4: is that Donald Trump, and this is going to surprise

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Speaker 4: a few of you. Donald Trump is not much of

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Speaker 4: a details guy. So part of the reason why Project

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty five has gotten so much attention. I mean,

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Speaker 4: policy memos don't normally go viral online, but this one

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Speaker 4: certainly has is because he's a difficult politician to read

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Speaker 4: to understand what he's actually going to do. He's deliberately

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Speaker 4: vague about his policies and his plans, so people have

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Speaker 4: kind of launched on to this as a roadmap for

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Speaker 4: what the people around Donald Trump are hoping to achieve

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Speaker 4: in his second term. And this document really is the

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Speaker 4: best clue as to what might happen because there are

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Speaker 4: so many people who put it together who he will

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Speaker 4: very likely appoint in his second term. In fact, two

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Speaker 4: thirds of its authors and editors worked in the first

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Speaker 4: Trump administration, so it's safe to say there'll be plenty

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Speaker 4: of them working in the second. The other reason I

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Speaker 4: think why people are latching onto this and why it

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Speaker 4: seems imminent and important to discuss, is because it is

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Speaker 4: pretty extreme in what it puts forward. And Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: himself likes to play a game where he says he

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Speaker 4: doesn't know anything about it. He's not even especially religious.

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Speaker 4: He kind of plays a game where he distances himself

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Speaker 4: from his base and from the people who will be

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Speaker 4: electing him, while simultaneously empowering those people when he gets

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Speaker 4: into office. We've seen that pattern before, That's what happened

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Speaker 4: last time. And one of the leaders of the group

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Speaker 4: the Heritage Foundation, that wrote this, Kevin Roberts, has called

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Speaker 4: what this doctor represents a second American Revolution. Now, Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump would never use language that dramatic, but the very

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Speaker 4: fact that the people around him are kind of coalescing

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Speaker 4: and spoiling for this fight. It's a safe bet that

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Speaker 4: if those are the people who get him elected, those

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Speaker 4: are the people that he's going to empower once he's

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Speaker 4: in the Oval office.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the focus of the online virality of

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five has been on just how much

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Speaker 1: of an impact it has on women's rights and on

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Speaker 1: LGBTQIA plus rights. It's not a popular platform to have,

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Speaker 1: according to most pundits, to be anti women's rights, to

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Speaker 1: be anti abortion. In fact, the majority of Americans when polled,

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Speaker 1: support having access to abortions. What impact does something like

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five have on a presidential run for

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump when he knows some of these policies are

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Speaker 1: very unpopular.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's start with abortion there, because that's going to

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Speaker 4: turn out to be a key issue in this election,

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Speaker 4: especially now that come up. Harris is the presumptive Democratic nominee,

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Speaker 4: and she's a very outspoken advocate and defender of reproductive rights.

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Speaker 4: On abortion, Trump has been deliberately vague about abortion this

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Speaker 4: election cycle. He wasn't in twenty sixteen. He stood on

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Speaker 4: the debate stage in twenty sixteen and said that he

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Speaker 4: was going to appoint conservative judges to the Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: who were going to overturn Roe v. Wade and therefore

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Speaker 4: restrict women's access to abortion services. And he did exactly that.

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Speaker 4: Now on this year's debate stage, when he was debating

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden, he essentially said that he would leave it

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Speaker 4: up to states to decide what to do about abortion.

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Speaker 4: It was definitely a sort of dial back from what

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Speaker 4: he'd been saying in twenty sixteen, and that's because he

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Speaker 4: recognizes that it's a losing strategy. A majority of the

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Speaker 4: electorate does not want the kind of hardline, no exceptions,

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Speaker 4: federal ban on abortion. So let's dig into what the

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Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five document says about abortion. On abortion,

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Speaker 4: it does make reproductive care a lot harder to get.

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Speaker 4: It advocates for prosecuting anyone who mails abortion pills, which

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Speaker 4: is really important in the States because that's how a

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Speaker 4: lot of pregnant people in states with new abortion bans

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Speaker 4: are getting around those bans. It doesn't go so far

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Speaker 4: as to say there should be a federal abortion ban

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Speaker 4: with no exceptions, And my view is. I think the

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Speaker 4: reason why they didn't want to write that down on

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Speaker 4: paper is because they recognize that really would be electorally

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Speaker 4: disastrous for Trump to be affiliated with it. But experts

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Speaker 4: have pointed out that the Heritage Foundation itself has called

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Speaker 4: for a nationwide abortion heartbeat ban, which says that once

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Speaker 4: fetuses have a heartbeat that therefore there can be no

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Speaker 4: abortions done with no exceptions.

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Speaker 1: It seems like we can sort of split Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five into two different halves. One is how it

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Speaker 1: affects people's rights, and the other seems to be a

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Speaker 1: very conscious dismantling of how the American government works. And

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Speaker 1: some of that is kind of stacking the deck with

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Speaker 1: conservatives where normally civil servants would hold position, and by

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Speaker 1: giving those in power so Trump and the people immediately

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Speaker 1: around him even more power. Is that essentially looking a

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Speaker 1: little bit more like a dictatorship? Can we use that

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Speaker 1: word in this instance if Project twenty twenty five gets up.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if we can use the word dictatorship,

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Speaker 4: because I think the dictatorship would imply that the military

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Speaker 4: were in cahoots with the president, or that they were

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Speaker 4: backing up his power with their own force, and there's

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Speaker 4: nothing that Project twenty twenty five can say about the

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Speaker 4: military's role in American life and about it's very distinct

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Speaker 4: and a political role. So I wouldn't go so far

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Speaker 4: as to say dictatorship, but I would say that it

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Speaker 4: definitely gives an unprecedented amount of power to the so

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Speaker 4: called executive that is the president. And this is part

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Speaker 4: of the whole obsession that the right has developed over

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Speaker 4: the last ten years or so with the so called

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Speaker 4: deep state, meaning the public service basically, And there's this

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Speaker 4: idea generated in conservative circles that the deep state is

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Speaker 4: pushing an extreme liberal agenda people. This conspiracy theory started

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Speaker 4: around the time of the first Obama presidency and then

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Speaker 4: definitely picked up speed during his two terms, and it

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Speaker 4: advocates for a stripping away of the public service. It

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Speaker 4: would be about two thirds of the size that it

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Speaker 4: is right now. That doesn't sound like a huge reduction,

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Speaker 4: but a country of almost three hundred million people requires

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Speaker 4: a lot of public servants to make it work, so

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Speaker 4: it would have the sort of sizeable and tangible effect

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Speaker 4: on American life to fire all those public servants.

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Speaker 1: This manuscript also really discusses a move towards Christian beliefs

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Speaker 1: in policy. How do you think the majority of Americans

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Speaker 1: will respond to that? And, of course that's a difficult

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Speaker 1: question to ask because America is so big, with so

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Speaker 1: many people with so many different backgrounds. Do you think

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Speaker 1: a push to run the country under a more hardline

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Speaker 1: Christian agenda will be accepted by the majority?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think, to be specific, rather than call it

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Speaker 4: a Christian agenda, I would call it a religious right agenda. Certainly,

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Speaker 4: the people doing it are Christian, but I think there's

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Speaker 4: plenty of Christians in the United States who would want

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Speaker 4: to distance themselves from the particular brand of Christianity that's

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Speaker 4: being pushed here. I think that there's plenty of things

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Speaker 4: in this document that would be very unpopular with most

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Speaker 4: people in America. One of the points that it has

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Speaker 4: been getting a lot of attention is that it even

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Speaker 4: calls to outlaw pornography and in prison its creators and distributors.

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Speaker 4: Pornography is pretty ubiquitous. I think that porn sites are

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Speaker 4: probably among the most visited sights on the Internet. And

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Speaker 4: I'm also pretty sure that Donald Trump is not going

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Speaker 4: to in fact ban all pornography when he comes into office.

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Speaker 4: But just that point alone gives you a sense of

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Speaker 4: how deeply unpopular. I think a lot of this is

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Speaker 4: going to be across the board, across blue states and

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Speaker 4: across red states. There's also some claims flying about online

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Speaker 4: about the document, which I did want to take a

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Speaker 4: moment to debunk because some of them are inaccurate. So,

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Speaker 4: for instance, it does not call for the ending of

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Speaker 4: no fault divorce, and I have seen that that's been

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Speaker 4: idea that's been circulating online. And it does not call

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Speaker 4: for the end of marriage equality. Now. It does put

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Speaker 4: in place all sorts of restrictions and curtail on the

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Speaker 4: rights of transgender Americans and on LGBTQI plus Americans generally.

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Speaker 4: But I did want to point out that there are

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Speaker 4: some myths going around about how far it goes in

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Speaker 4: some of these areas.

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Speaker 1: Ken Donald Trump actually distance himself from Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: He's certainly done a fair bit to try and do

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Speaker 1: that already. Do you think it's too far gone now

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Speaker 1: for him to claim that he doesn't know who's behind

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Speaker 1: it and doesn't respond to it.

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Speaker 4: That's an interesting question because I think that we in

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Speaker 4: the news media have been asking since twenty fifteen, so

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Speaker 4: almost a decade now whether Trump is going to be

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Speaker 4: called out on his sort of falsehoods or sort of

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Speaker 4: entanglements with lies. And it's hard to say whether or

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Speaker 4: not he's going to pull off this trick, and it

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Speaker 4: is essentially a trick distancing himself from a document put

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Speaker 4: together by the very people who are pushing to get

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Speaker 4: him to power again. I would say that he now

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Speaker 4: has a very formidable opponent who is going to interrogate

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Speaker 4: him on this and not leave it be in Kamala Harris.

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Speaker 4: She is a former prosecutor. I think she's going to

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Speaker 4: be able to hold his feet to the fire in

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Speaker 4: a way that Joe Biden clearly wasn't able to in

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Speaker 4: the last debate. And there does seem to be a

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Speaker 4: bit of a sort of vibe shift happening in the

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Speaker 4: US where people are very alarmed about this. Like I said,

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Speaker 4: it's not often that a policy document gets this much attention.

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Speaker 4: And the very fact that online people are so engaged

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Speaker 4: in there's that John Oliver clip about it got seven

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Speaker 4: million views.

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Speaker 6: More than a hundred conservative organizations have come together to

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Speaker 6: work on this, and they're all there, you've got the NRA,

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Speaker 6: Tony Point USA, Rodeo Coount for Trump, The center of

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Speaker 6: a ruining Thanksgiving, The Marriages between a Man and his Property,

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Speaker 6: Institute on the Unborn, the Union of Twitter guys with

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Speaker 6: goatees and wrap around shades.

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Speaker 4: I think people are paying it more attention than they

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Speaker 4: were in twenty sixteen, and that's because that whole experience

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Speaker 4: with Trump's first term taught Americans what it means to

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Speaker 4: have someone in power who does broadly unpopular things like

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Speaker 4: enable the Supreme Court to overturn nationwide access to abortion.

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Speaker 4: People are paying more attention this election cycle. I think, therefore,

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Speaker 4: I think it's going to be hard for him to

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Speaker 4: ultimately distance himself from it.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in today, friends, with four months left

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Speaker 1: until this US presidential election, will keep you across the

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Speaker 1: madness as it unfolds. The quickie is produced by me

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Speaker 1: Claire Murphy and now senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio

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Speaker 1: production by Tomline