1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,382 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,221 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:27,461 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:27,502 --> 00:00:31,502 Speaker 2: our limited series Parenting Out Loud. I am Jessie Stevens. 5 00:00:31,742 --> 00:00:35,622 Speaker 2: I am joined by Amelia Lester here Hello, and Mamma 6 00:00:35,702 --> 00:00:37,782 Speaker 2: Maya's deputy editor, Stacey Hicks. 7 00:00:37,862 --> 00:00:38,142 Speaker 1: Hello. 8 00:00:38,382 --> 00:00:40,422 Speaker 2: We're here to talk about some of the stories that 9 00:00:40,462 --> 00:00:43,302 Speaker 2: dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it, 10 00:00:43,462 --> 00:00:46,582 Speaker 2: we are talking about it. On today's show. Do you 11 00:00:46,662 --> 00:00:49,942 Speaker 2: have a DFK that stands for a deeply feeling kid? 12 00:00:50,182 --> 00:00:52,502 Speaker 2: And Doctor Becky knows how to spot one? But is 13 00:00:52,542 --> 00:00:55,342 Speaker 2: there really any such thing? And the stunning decline of 14 00:00:55,342 --> 00:00:58,182 Speaker 2: the preference to have boys? Apparently girls are very much 15 00:00:58,222 --> 00:01:02,262 Speaker 2: on trend. Why plus are you and trampoline denial? We 16 00:01:02,382 --> 00:01:05,262 Speaker 2: read the most shocking article about trampolines and are desperate 17 00:01:05,542 --> 00:01:06,302 Speaker 2: to debrief. 18 00:01:06,742 --> 00:01:08,982 Speaker 3: But first, in case you missed it, one of the 19 00:01:08,982 --> 00:01:11,142 Speaker 3: biggest story who on MoMA Mia this week was about 20 00:01:11,182 --> 00:01:13,461 Speaker 3: a woman who abandoned her family to live on her 21 00:01:13,462 --> 00:01:16,342 Speaker 3: own and now we're all a little bit jealous. In 22 00:01:16,382 --> 00:01:19,142 Speaker 3: an interview with Katie Powers, author and mother of two 23 00:01:19,182 --> 00:01:22,862 Speaker 3: Monique Ben told her spoke very candidly about the moment 24 00:01:22,902 --> 00:01:25,702 Speaker 3: she was staying at her family's home in North Queensland 25 00:01:26,062 --> 00:01:28,542 Speaker 3: and just decided to never go back to her life 26 00:01:28,622 --> 00:01:29,502 Speaker 3: in New South Wales. 27 00:01:29,742 --> 00:01:32,182 Speaker 2: I feel like a very relevant detail here with the 28 00:01:32,222 --> 00:01:34,342 Speaker 2: age of her children, That's what I scrolled to be, 29 00:01:34,462 --> 00:01:37,342 Speaker 2: like how old are to and four? Are we talking? 30 00:01:37,782 --> 00:01:42,862 Speaker 3: When can I leave? She had two teenage sons. But 31 00:01:43,182 --> 00:01:45,622 Speaker 3: she said days turned into weeks and she just sent 32 00:01:45,702 --> 00:01:48,662 Speaker 3: her husband an email and said, that's it. I'm done 33 00:01:48,702 --> 00:01:50,902 Speaker 3: with carrying the mental load. I want to live on 34 00:01:50,942 --> 00:01:53,462 Speaker 3: my own. I'm not divorcing you. I just don't want 35 00:01:53,502 --> 00:01:55,102 Speaker 3: to live in the same house as you anymore. 36 00:01:55,942 --> 00:01:58,302 Speaker 1: See I thought when I first read this and it 37 00:01:58,382 --> 00:02:02,742 Speaker 1: described the suns as growing, I sort of thought, this 38 00:02:02,782 --> 00:02:07,302 Speaker 1: is a semantics exercise. If she's leaving home, specifically leaving 39 00:02:07,302 --> 00:02:10,541 Speaker 1: her husband and her children are largely looking out to themselves, 40 00:02:11,382 --> 00:02:13,502 Speaker 1: it's up to her whether or not she calls it divorce. 41 00:02:13,621 --> 00:02:16,142 Speaker 1: But it feels a little bit like she's separating from 42 00:02:16,181 --> 00:02:16,781 Speaker 1: her husband. 43 00:02:16,982 --> 00:02:18,302 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what she said. 44 00:02:18,342 --> 00:02:21,262 Speaker 3: She said that he was initially surprised and kind of 45 00:02:21,262 --> 00:02:23,901 Speaker 3: making sure she hadn't gone mad and had a breakdown 46 00:02:23,982 --> 00:02:26,462 Speaker 3: or something more serious had happened, but that he actually 47 00:02:26,502 --> 00:02:28,542 Speaker 3: came around to it and supported her and was like, 48 00:02:28,582 --> 00:02:31,902 Speaker 3: that's okay. Well they visit each other now regularly, so 49 00:02:31,982 --> 00:02:33,822 Speaker 3: a couple of times a year they'll go and see 50 00:02:33,822 --> 00:02:36,382 Speaker 3: the other one and they just say the dynamic works. 51 00:02:36,382 --> 00:02:38,742 Speaker 3: But she acknowledges, She said, I know that this could 52 00:02:38,782 --> 00:02:41,742 Speaker 3: not work for all people, mostly because most people don't 53 00:02:41,742 --> 00:02:42,942 Speaker 3: have two houses. 54 00:02:42,542 --> 00:02:43,302 Speaker 4: To go between. 55 00:02:44,502 --> 00:02:46,542 Speaker 3: We couldn't get very far, which chose to la you 56 00:02:46,542 --> 00:02:50,022 Speaker 3: didn't have another bedroom. Yeah, exactly, exactly, So she is 57 00:02:50,342 --> 00:02:53,942 Speaker 3: doing this from a very privileged position. But yeah, she said. 58 00:02:54,062 --> 00:02:56,742 Speaker 3: People do say is there adultery involved? Is there some reason? 59 00:02:56,782 --> 00:02:58,702 Speaker 3: And she said, I actually love him so much more 60 00:02:58,742 --> 00:03:01,742 Speaker 3: now than when we were living under the one roof, 61 00:03:01,902 --> 00:03:03,102 Speaker 3: So that's why they do it. 62 00:03:02,782 --> 00:03:07,222 Speaker 2: It's the most taboo thing a woman can do anytime. 63 00:03:07,382 --> 00:03:09,302 Speaker 2: I've read a few books recently that have this as 64 00:03:09,302 --> 00:03:12,062 Speaker 2: a thing, and it's like, when you're confronted with that, 65 00:03:12,222 --> 00:03:17,902 Speaker 2: readers get really triggered and just like the thought. I mean, 66 00:03:18,102 --> 00:03:19,902 Speaker 2: when a man does it, we're horrified, but when a 67 00:03:20,102 --> 00:03:24,022 Speaker 2: mother leaves her children or her husband, that's seen as 68 00:03:24,022 --> 00:03:27,862 Speaker 2: particularly kind of I don't know, subverting the maternal nature 69 00:03:27,942 --> 00:03:32,422 Speaker 2: of her role. But I think the interesting question is 70 00:03:32,462 --> 00:03:35,582 Speaker 2: like what leads to that, and also the amount of 71 00:03:35,582 --> 00:03:39,022 Speaker 2: people that clicked on it is kind of going, there's 72 00:03:39,062 --> 00:03:43,102 Speaker 2: some fascination with this decision. And clearly it was years 73 00:03:43,182 --> 00:03:45,742 Speaker 2: upon years of resentment of taking on the mental load 74 00:03:45,822 --> 00:03:49,622 Speaker 2: to such a point that it just overflows and you 75 00:03:49,662 --> 00:03:50,742 Speaker 2: just can't do it anymore. 76 00:03:50,782 --> 00:03:52,302 Speaker 3: Yeah, she said, it just got to the point where 77 00:03:52,342 --> 00:03:54,502 Speaker 3: she couldn't not leave. She said it felt like that 78 00:03:54,622 --> 00:03:56,262 Speaker 3: was the only option and that she had to be 79 00:03:56,302 --> 00:03:59,662 Speaker 3: prepared for whatever his reaction was to that. But luckily 80 00:03:59,702 --> 00:04:01,862 Speaker 3: he was okay with it, so maybe he was feeling 81 00:04:01,902 --> 00:04:02,742 Speaker 3: the same way. 82 00:04:04,422 --> 00:04:07,982 Speaker 2: Do you have a deeply feeling kid? Are you a 83 00:04:08,022 --> 00:04:08,982 Speaker 2: deeply feeling kid? 84 00:04:10,102 --> 00:04:11,382 Speaker 4: Doctor Brymuch. 85 00:04:12,862 --> 00:04:15,662 Speaker 2: Doctor Becky is a clinical psychologist and an icon for 86 00:04:15,742 --> 00:04:18,381 Speaker 2: millennial parents, and she published a video to her three 87 00:04:18,421 --> 00:04:21,462 Speaker 2: point three million followers recently and here is what she said. 88 00:04:21,541 --> 00:04:23,182 Speaker 5: Right now, raise your hand. If you were told that 89 00:04:23,222 --> 00:04:25,782 Speaker 5: you were dramatic when you were a kid, raise your hand. 90 00:04:25,782 --> 00:04:27,222 Speaker 5: If you were told you're making a big deal out 91 00:04:27,262 --> 00:04:29,021 Speaker 5: of nothing, raise your hand. If you were told things 92 00:04:29,061 --> 00:04:30,981 Speaker 5: like you're ruining this for the family, I have news 93 00:04:31,061 --> 00:04:32,821 Speaker 5: for you. I have a feeling you are a deeply 94 00:04:32,861 --> 00:04:35,581 Speaker 5: feeling kid. I have a feeling you might have a 95 00:04:35,621 --> 00:04:39,021 Speaker 5: deeply feeling kid. Deeply feeling kids are more porous to 96 00:04:39,061 --> 00:04:42,222 Speaker 5: the world. They truly do feel things more intensely. 97 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:45,622 Speaker 1: More comes in and more comes. 98 00:04:45,301 --> 00:04:50,142 Speaker 5: Out, which yes, means very intense tantrums and escalations. Deeply 99 00:04:50,181 --> 00:04:54,142 Speaker 5: feeling kids sometimes experience their feelings as threats. It's like 100 00:04:54,142 --> 00:04:55,262 Speaker 5: they're being attacked. 101 00:04:55,342 --> 00:04:58,021 Speaker 2: I need initial reactions. What do you think do you 102 00:04:58,061 --> 00:04:59,902 Speaker 2: put much stock in a deeply feeling kid? 103 00:05:00,222 --> 00:05:02,382 Speaker 1: Am I allowed to say that I hate this? 104 00:05:02,981 --> 00:05:04,941 Speaker 2: Tell me why you hate it? 105 00:05:04,981 --> 00:05:08,782 Speaker 1: Isn't Doctor Becky just reminding us all of us subjectivity 106 00:05:08,782 --> 00:05:11,981 Speaker 1: as humans, that we all feel things, whether or not 107 00:05:12,022 --> 00:05:14,342 Speaker 1: we show it to the world or not. Look. I 108 00:05:14,381 --> 00:05:18,062 Speaker 1: think doctor Becky's success boils down to the fact that 109 00:05:18,262 --> 00:05:21,742 Speaker 1: she has identified the fundamental truth that we need to 110 00:05:21,782 --> 00:05:24,462 Speaker 1: treat our kids like humans. And Okay, sometimes I need 111 00:05:24,462 --> 00:05:25,302 Speaker 1: a reminder of that. 112 00:05:25,342 --> 00:05:27,541 Speaker 2: Well, will co sign yes? 113 00:05:28,262 --> 00:05:31,461 Speaker 1: When I scream at my child, put your socks on, 114 00:05:31,501 --> 00:05:33,181 Speaker 1: go to the toilet and brush your teeth. Would I 115 00:05:33,222 --> 00:05:35,981 Speaker 1: say that to my partner? No? I probably wouldn't. 116 00:05:36,262 --> 00:05:38,342 Speaker 2: She will putt sucks on a brush of taker. 117 00:05:39,741 --> 00:05:44,261 Speaker 1: That's true, but that's I think why she's so loved, 118 00:05:44,381 --> 00:05:46,382 Speaker 1: and look, I don't want to I don't want to 119 00:05:46,421 --> 00:05:49,302 Speaker 1: yuck anyone's arm. I know many people who say that 120 00:05:49,342 --> 00:05:52,941 Speaker 1: doctor Becky has really helped them break generational cycles of trauma. 121 00:05:53,582 --> 00:05:56,422 Speaker 1: And I really like how that she emphasizes you need 122 00:05:56,421 --> 00:05:59,101 Speaker 1: to handle your own feelings before dealing with your childs, 123 00:05:59,101 --> 00:06:01,702 Speaker 1: and that includes figuring out if you yourself or a DFK. 124 00:06:02,421 --> 00:06:06,061 Speaker 1: But ultimately, this clip just irritates me because she is 125 00:06:06,142 --> 00:06:09,981 Speaker 1: selling your product, and she is trying to come up 126 00:06:09,981 --> 00:06:13,342 Speaker 1: with a label that could conceivably be applied to just 127 00:06:13,541 --> 00:06:15,941 Speaker 1: about everyone. Am I wrong? That? 128 00:06:16,022 --> 00:06:19,381 Speaker 2: Okay, That's how I feel because when it's like highly 129 00:06:19,462 --> 00:06:22,541 Speaker 2: sensitive person or you'll often hear someone say I just 130 00:06:22,621 --> 00:06:24,581 Speaker 2: experience the world a little more deeply. 131 00:06:24,301 --> 00:06:27,061 Speaker 1: Than I'm an you know what I am? 132 00:06:27,142 --> 00:06:30,421 Speaker 2: I'm an overthinker, And it's like the no, no. You 133 00:06:30,541 --> 00:06:33,582 Speaker 2: just have closer proximity to your thoughts and your feelings 134 00:06:33,582 --> 00:06:36,101 Speaker 2: than anyone else's, so we imagine that our own inner 135 00:06:36,142 --> 00:06:39,141 Speaker 2: worlds are far more complicated than anyone else's because I 136 00:06:39,181 --> 00:06:42,021 Speaker 2: can't access yours. I'm like Amelia's pretty simple She's just 137 00:06:42,061 --> 00:06:46,142 Speaker 2: here with a smile on her face. Me very very complicated, Stacy, 138 00:06:46,142 --> 00:06:48,701 Speaker 2: do you have any Do you agree? 139 00:06:48,902 --> 00:06:53,342 Speaker 3: I felt very seen and attacked in equal measure because 140 00:06:53,381 --> 00:06:56,262 Speaker 3: I am definitely a DFK. I am someone who will 141 00:06:56,262 --> 00:06:59,022 Speaker 3: cry when they see someone alone in a restaurant, despite 142 00:06:59,022 --> 00:07:01,541 Speaker 3: the fact that person is probably having a great time 143 00:07:01,702 --> 00:07:04,622 Speaker 3: alone in the restaurant. I project those feelings onto them. 144 00:07:04,662 --> 00:07:07,022 Speaker 3: I'm that person. But you have to say, pull yourself together. 145 00:07:07,142 --> 00:07:09,342 Speaker 3: You should not need to be upset by this. So 146 00:07:09,821 --> 00:07:12,662 Speaker 3: I do think that my emotions are probably a bit 147 00:07:12,662 --> 00:07:15,102 Speaker 3: closer to the surface, I would say, than other people's, 148 00:07:15,262 --> 00:07:18,222 Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean that I feel more deeply than 149 00:07:18,262 --> 00:07:21,901 Speaker 3: another person. But I do feel conflicted because I have 150 00:07:21,982 --> 00:07:24,941 Speaker 3: to admit when I saw doctor Becky's videos and I 151 00:07:24,982 --> 00:07:28,021 Speaker 3: heard this label, it did kind of give me some 152 00:07:28,142 --> 00:07:30,502 Speaker 3: level of comfort to put a name to something I 153 00:07:30,542 --> 00:07:33,701 Speaker 3: feel like i'm a little bit different to other people with, 154 00:07:34,182 --> 00:07:37,502 Speaker 3: and also a term for something that I think my 155 00:07:37,622 --> 00:07:40,581 Speaker 3: child experiences. On the other hand, I don't want to 156 00:07:40,582 --> 00:07:43,462 Speaker 3: pigeonhole her as this particular type of person, and I 157 00:07:43,502 --> 00:07:46,782 Speaker 3: think that's where the danger comes with all the labels. 158 00:07:46,342 --> 00:07:49,942 Speaker 2: If it lends itself to treating our child with like 159 00:07:50,182 --> 00:07:53,381 Speaker 2: more empathy. And I mean, I've got a two year old. 160 00:07:53,381 --> 00:07:57,102 Speaker 2: Where you go, I don't know many even tempered two 161 00:07:57,182 --> 00:07:59,062 Speaker 2: year olds who are really good with their feelings and 162 00:07:59,102 --> 00:08:02,222 Speaker 2: have really quite muted feelings about yogurt. She has quite 163 00:08:02,262 --> 00:08:05,662 Speaker 2: strong feelings about yogurt. But in saying that, what I 164 00:08:05,742 --> 00:08:09,102 Speaker 2: worry about is the labeling. And I'm not talking about 165 00:08:09,142 --> 00:08:13,302 Speaker 2: diagnosed seeds necessarily, But even I look at my daughter 166 00:08:13,821 --> 00:08:16,782 Speaker 2: and the moment I think she's shy, she does something 167 00:08:17,182 --> 00:08:20,182 Speaker 2: that suggests maybe she's not, or the moment I think 168 00:08:20,222 --> 00:08:23,941 Speaker 2: she's really gentle, that's when she'll bite. You know, Like, kids, 169 00:08:24,142 --> 00:08:27,062 Speaker 2: by their nature, are in a process of evolution, and 170 00:08:27,102 --> 00:08:31,461 Speaker 2: I worry that by putting any kind of expectation or 171 00:08:31,542 --> 00:08:34,542 Speaker 2: label on them, it becomes self fulfilling. 172 00:08:34,942 --> 00:08:37,262 Speaker 1: Yes, I worry about the impact on kids, and I 173 00:08:37,342 --> 00:08:40,502 Speaker 1: worry about the impact on parents as well. So, okay, 174 00:08:40,502 --> 00:08:43,502 Speaker 1: you've established that your kid is deeply feeling. How does 175 00:08:43,542 --> 00:08:45,862 Speaker 1: that flow into how you treat them? I think what 176 00:08:46,342 --> 00:08:48,822 Speaker 1: it leads to is this idea that you have to 177 00:08:48,902 --> 00:08:52,742 Speaker 1: prioritize their feelings above your own or even above your 178 00:08:52,782 --> 00:08:56,462 Speaker 1: own schedule. So I found this CBC article that nicely 179 00:08:56,502 --> 00:08:59,022 Speaker 1: summarized the back class to doctor Becky and sort of 180 00:08:59,062 --> 00:09:01,702 Speaker 1: gets it where I'm at on this, which is gentle 181 00:09:01,782 --> 00:09:04,902 Speaker 1: parenting too rough on parents. Now, I should say that 182 00:09:04,942 --> 00:09:08,381 Speaker 1: doctor Becky is probably doesn't identify as a gentle parenting acolyte, 183 00:09:08,382 --> 00:09:12,422 Speaker 1: but she's definitely adjacent to it. And basically the idea 184 00:09:12,582 --> 00:09:16,702 Speaker 1: is that in in stressing the importance of acknowledging children's 185 00:09:16,702 --> 00:09:20,662 Speaker 1: feelings sometimes above all else, it makes it really hard 186 00:09:20,702 --> 00:09:23,902 Speaker 1: for parents. They constantly feel like they're falling behind. And 187 00:09:23,982 --> 00:09:26,262 Speaker 1: sometimes you do have to be the bad guy, and 188 00:09:26,342 --> 00:09:28,462 Speaker 1: sometimes you just don't have time with the feelings and 189 00:09:28,462 --> 00:09:29,982 Speaker 1: you just have to get out the door. And so 190 00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:32,742 Speaker 1: I worry about both the children's side of it and 191 00:09:32,782 --> 00:09:34,782 Speaker 1: the parents' side of it when we're labeling kids in 192 00:09:34,822 --> 00:09:37,422 Speaker 1: this way and giving your child the label of a 193 00:09:37,502 --> 00:09:41,582 Speaker 1: DFK doesn't stop that behavior from occurring. Like you can't 194 00:09:41,582 --> 00:09:43,582 Speaker 1: just be in the shops going just look away, she's 195 00:09:43,622 --> 00:09:46,902 Speaker 1: throwing products at you because she's a DFK. It won't 196 00:09:46,982 --> 00:09:51,262 Speaker 1: change what's going on. So having it is not very useful. Yeah, 197 00:09:51,262 --> 00:09:55,022 Speaker 1: So what I wonder why do people respond to this? Then? 198 00:09:55,782 --> 00:09:58,902 Speaker 3: Why do you think this video thing too anytime on 199 00:09:58,982 --> 00:10:01,542 Speaker 3: the site on Mamma Mia. Anytime on Mamma Mia that 200 00:10:01,582 --> 00:10:04,142 Speaker 3: we write about something that is a term or a 201 00:10:04,182 --> 00:10:07,702 Speaker 3: theory or gives a name to something that's happening in the. 202 00:10:07,622 --> 00:10:10,622 Speaker 4: World, people love it, like people will flock to that. 203 00:10:10,662 --> 00:10:12,782 Speaker 3: And I think it's just about kind of tying a 204 00:10:12,822 --> 00:10:15,862 Speaker 3: neat little bow around something that they're may be grappling with. 205 00:10:16,182 --> 00:10:19,942 Speaker 2: Is it also confirming our sense that our child is unique, 206 00:10:20,142 --> 00:10:23,502 Speaker 2: which all our children are genuinely unique and are genuinely special, 207 00:10:23,982 --> 00:10:26,902 Speaker 2: But these titles suggest like there is something that you're 208 00:10:26,942 --> 00:10:31,582 Speaker 2: seeing in your kid that makes them different, because she's 209 00:10:31,622 --> 00:10:33,542 Speaker 2: not saying that all kids are DFK, she's saying that 210 00:10:33,582 --> 00:10:37,222 Speaker 2: only some are. And it also I think it then 211 00:10:37,302 --> 00:10:39,141 Speaker 2: makes us feel like, Okay, now that I have a 212 00:10:39,222 --> 00:10:42,261 Speaker 2: DFK doctor, Becky is going to teach me some strategies. 213 00:10:42,262 --> 00:10:43,662 Speaker 2: And I will give her a lot of credit in 214 00:10:43,702 --> 00:10:46,982 Speaker 2: this because she's really straightforward. And we've talked on the 215 00:10:47,022 --> 00:10:49,902 Speaker 2: show before about how for a lot of mums and dads, 216 00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:53,062 Speaker 2: they don't have a community that might teach them strategies. 217 00:10:53,262 --> 00:10:55,422 Speaker 2: Like I'm really close to my mum and she'll often 218 00:10:55,462 --> 00:10:57,502 Speaker 2: tell me something that will help with parenting, like I'm 219 00:10:57,582 --> 00:11:00,302 Speaker 2: doing this for the first time, and doctor Becky provides 220 00:11:00,342 --> 00:11:03,222 Speaker 2: that for people. She has something she talks about sturdy. 221 00:11:03,262 --> 00:11:06,022 Speaker 2: Have you heard this? So she taught her big thing 222 00:11:06,102 --> 00:11:10,422 Speaker 2: is like a parent needs to be sturdy, not super authoritarian, 223 00:11:11,182 --> 00:11:15,862 Speaker 2: not entirely gentle, but sturdy suggests you're something that a 224 00:11:15,942 --> 00:11:18,702 Speaker 2: child can lean on. You know your values, you know 225 00:11:18,742 --> 00:11:21,222 Speaker 2: what the limitations are, you know the rules, but you're 226 00:11:21,262 --> 00:11:24,142 Speaker 2: also there's some flexibility in that. And I quite like 227 00:11:24,542 --> 00:11:26,422 Speaker 2: there are a lot that pops up from doctor Becky 228 00:11:26,422 --> 00:11:28,262 Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, like that, I'll use it. But 229 00:11:28,342 --> 00:11:31,582 Speaker 2: at the same time, you're right, she's selling a course, 230 00:11:31,622 --> 00:11:33,822 Speaker 2: she's selling a book, she's selling her expertise. 231 00:11:34,102 --> 00:11:38,182 Speaker 1: And I also think she's kind of pathologizing parenting itself. Like, 232 00:11:38,262 --> 00:11:42,262 Speaker 1: sometime around the point at which parenting became a verb, 233 00:11:43,022 --> 00:11:45,622 Speaker 1: we decided that to be a parent meant you had 234 00:11:45,662 --> 00:11:48,822 Speaker 1: to absorb all the evidence and all the latest studies 235 00:11:48,862 --> 00:11:51,982 Speaker 1: and all the greatest thinkers on parenting. And I think 236 00:11:52,022 --> 00:11:53,942 Speaker 1: part of that I have a theory. I think part 237 00:11:53,942 --> 00:11:56,462 Speaker 1: of the reason why doctor Becky and others have such 238 00:11:56,502 --> 00:11:59,542 Speaker 1: slavish devotion online is because it's a bit of a 239 00:11:59,542 --> 00:12:02,302 Speaker 1: pendulum swing response to the style of parenting that a 240 00:12:02,302 --> 00:12:05,822 Speaker 1: lot of millennials grew up with. So, for instance, doctor 241 00:12:05,822 --> 00:12:08,782 Speaker 1: Becky says you should never do chimeouts because they shame 242 00:12:08,862 --> 00:12:13,182 Speaker 1: the child. Comes from her grounding in modern psychotherapy. She's 243 00:12:13,262 --> 00:12:18,022 Speaker 1: also a psychologist, so there's clearly some evidence to back that. 244 00:12:18,542 --> 00:12:23,622 Speaker 1: On the other hand, pediatricians advocate for timeouts some American pediatricians, 245 00:12:23,942 --> 00:12:26,662 Speaker 1: according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, because it has 246 00:12:26,742 --> 00:12:30,382 Speaker 1: been shown to be effective in rewiring kids' behavior. So 247 00:12:30,582 --> 00:12:33,582 Speaker 1: different experts are going to come up with different assessments 248 00:12:33,622 --> 00:12:37,182 Speaker 1: for what the best cognitive approaches are. It's clear why 249 00:12:37,222 --> 00:12:40,022 Speaker 1: doctor Becky doesn't like the timeouts. At the same time, 250 00:12:40,182 --> 00:12:42,542 Speaker 1: it can be a tool in the toolbox. And for 251 00:12:42,662 --> 00:12:45,381 Speaker 1: millennial parents, I think there's a sense of we want 252 00:12:45,422 --> 00:12:47,982 Speaker 1: to do better than our parents, We want to correct 253 00:12:47,982 --> 00:12:51,142 Speaker 1: their perceived failings. But the truth is no one can 254 00:12:51,142 --> 00:12:52,062 Speaker 1: be a perfect parent. 255 00:12:53,582 --> 00:12:56,142 Speaker 3: Have you ever watched a gender reveal video where the 256 00:12:56,222 --> 00:12:59,502 Speaker 3: parents are clearly trying to hide their disappointment, Well, it 257 00:12:59,582 --> 00:13:01,542 Speaker 3: was probably because they found out they were having a 258 00:13:01,582 --> 00:13:04,381 Speaker 3: boy in a surprising turn of events. There is now 259 00:13:04,382 --> 00:13:07,342 Speaker 3: an increasing preference by parents to have little girls, when 260 00:13:07,342 --> 00:13:09,782 Speaker 3: it was once very much the opposite. An article in 261 00:13:09,822 --> 00:13:12,982 Speaker 3: the Economists this week showed this is a trend happening globally, 262 00:13:13,102 --> 00:13:16,261 Speaker 3: even in countries like China, where the now abolished one 263 00:13:16,342 --> 00:13:19,342 Speaker 3: child policy once meant that pregnancies resulting in girls were 264 00:13:19,422 --> 00:13:22,462 Speaker 3: routinely aborted in favor of boys who would carry on 265 00:13:22,462 --> 00:13:25,102 Speaker 3: the family line and look after parents in old age. 266 00:13:25,302 --> 00:13:28,462 Speaker 3: To put it into context, the article said, so globally, 267 00:13:28,622 --> 00:13:31,382 Speaker 3: among babies born in the year two thousand, one point 268 00:13:31,502 --> 00:13:34,582 Speaker 3: six million girls were missing from the number you'd expect 269 00:13:34,782 --> 00:13:37,982 Speaker 3: given the natural sex ratio at birth. This year that 270 00:13:38,102 --> 00:13:40,822 Speaker 3: number is likely to be only two hundred thousand, which 271 00:13:40,862 --> 00:13:44,622 Speaker 3: is still a lot, but it's falling. In America and Scandinavia, 272 00:13:44,782 --> 00:13:47,702 Speaker 3: families are now more likely to have another child if 273 00:13:47,742 --> 00:13:49,702 Speaker 3: their first child is a son in the hopes of 274 00:13:49,742 --> 00:13:52,982 Speaker 3: getting a girl, and seventy five percent of Japanese couples 275 00:13:52,982 --> 00:13:55,382 Speaker 3: who only want one child say they'd prefer it be 276 00:13:55,422 --> 00:13:58,342 Speaker 3: a daughter. They're also seeing it for adoptive parents. Some 277 00:13:58,542 --> 00:14:02,182 Speaker 3: agencies now charge higher fees for placing female children as 278 00:14:02,222 --> 00:14:04,622 Speaker 3: the demand is so much higher. I think there's a 279 00:14:04,622 --> 00:14:07,582 Speaker 3: few reasons for this gradual about turn. So I'd love 280 00:14:07,622 --> 00:14:10,502 Speaker 3: to know why you think there's a sudden in girl power. 281 00:14:10,822 --> 00:14:14,622 Speaker 2: I reckon there's a few things right because historically boys 282 00:14:14,702 --> 00:14:19,702 Speaker 2: have offered families an economic advantage, right, and with gender 283 00:14:19,742 --> 00:14:22,062 Speaker 2: equality and getting women in the workplace, that's meant that 284 00:14:22,422 --> 00:14:25,022 Speaker 2: what boys offer in that way, girls can now offer. 285 00:14:25,102 --> 00:14:25,262 Speaker 3: Right. 286 00:14:25,862 --> 00:14:28,982 Speaker 2: I think it's definitely an interesting point that the article 287 00:14:29,062 --> 00:14:33,142 Speaker 2: makes about people feeling as though a daughter will look 288 00:14:33,182 --> 00:14:37,022 Speaker 2: after them into old age. I've actually heard people say that, 289 00:14:37,982 --> 00:14:40,382 Speaker 2: but I'm going to throw out a totally random theory 290 00:14:40,422 --> 00:14:43,382 Speaker 2: that's just mine. I wonder if there is more of 291 00:14:43,422 --> 00:14:47,822 Speaker 2: a focus on centering what the mother wants. 292 00:14:47,942 --> 00:14:48,182 Speaker 1: Right. 293 00:14:48,782 --> 00:14:51,822 Speaker 2: So we're talking about things like gender disappointment, which we've 294 00:14:51,862 --> 00:14:55,382 Speaker 2: never talked about before because of you know, just the 295 00:14:55,382 --> 00:14:57,382 Speaker 2: public conversation going on to TikTok and Instagram. 296 00:14:57,422 --> 00:15:00,262 Speaker 1: Don't know anyone personally who's experienced, yes. 297 00:15:00,502 --> 00:15:05,142 Speaker 2: So, Kelly McCarran spoke really candidly about this after the 298 00:15:05,182 --> 00:15:07,262 Speaker 2: birth of her son, and I found it really refreshing. 299 00:15:07,302 --> 00:15:10,422 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that term before. And you know, she 300 00:15:10,822 --> 00:15:12,702 Speaker 2: loves she's such a great mum. She loves her son 301 00:15:12,742 --> 00:15:15,702 Speaker 2: more than anything in the world. But her initial response was, oh, 302 00:15:15,702 --> 00:15:18,142 Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much I wanted a girl, And 303 00:15:18,422 --> 00:15:21,422 Speaker 2: I think that by centering mother's voices, we're probably hearing 304 00:15:21,462 --> 00:15:24,582 Speaker 2: that more. The question is, why would a mother want 305 00:15:25,102 --> 00:15:27,782 Speaker 2: a daughter, ever a son? And I wonder if it's 306 00:15:28,062 --> 00:15:29,662 Speaker 2: we feel like we know what we're doing because we 307 00:15:29,662 --> 00:15:33,822 Speaker 2: were a daughter, and also some deeply psychological sense of 308 00:15:34,462 --> 00:15:37,582 Speaker 2: wanting to reparent ourselves, like I have this thing I 309 00:15:37,662 --> 00:15:41,102 Speaker 2: wonder if I go, I want to re enter my 310 00:15:41,142 --> 00:15:43,102 Speaker 2: own childhood, and maybe I feel I can better do 311 00:15:43,222 --> 00:15:44,982 Speaker 2: that with a girl than a boy, which I don't 312 00:15:44,982 --> 00:15:47,862 Speaker 2: think is true, but it could just be what our 313 00:15:48,102 --> 00:15:49,742 Speaker 2: guts tell us. What do you think, Amelia? 314 00:15:50,382 --> 00:15:50,582 Speaker 3: Well? 315 00:15:50,622 --> 00:15:53,782 Speaker 1: Anecdotally, I will say that in the new South Welles 316 00:15:53,822 --> 00:15:58,302 Speaker 1: public school system which I currently am experiencing, girls are 317 00:15:58,422 --> 00:16:01,102 Speaker 1: very much the white whale. It seems there are just 318 00:16:01,182 --> 00:16:03,702 Speaker 1: not enough girls to go around to sprinkle the fairy 319 00:16:03,782 --> 00:16:07,742 Speaker 1: dust of good behavior across classes. In public primary schools, 320 00:16:08,422 --> 00:16:11,262 Speaker 1: they are better behave. There are also fewer of them 321 00:16:11,302 --> 00:16:14,462 Speaker 1: than boys in public schools in my experience, and I 322 00:16:14,542 --> 00:16:17,222 Speaker 1: wonder if part of this is because I certainly know 323 00:16:17,342 --> 00:16:19,742 Speaker 1: women who have put their daughters in single sex education 324 00:16:19,902 --> 00:16:23,542 Speaker 1: from kindergarten, whereas I don't know anyone who's chosen to 325 00:16:23,582 --> 00:16:26,662 Speaker 1: do that with boys. Not to say it doesn't happen, 326 00:16:26,742 --> 00:16:29,502 Speaker 1: but it's because of that conventional wisdom that girls have 327 00:16:29,622 --> 00:16:33,302 Speaker 1: contagiously good behavior and that will translate to boys as well. 328 00:16:33,782 --> 00:16:36,622 Speaker 1: So there is this sense now where to have girls 329 00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:39,102 Speaker 1: in your child's class, and the more girls you have 330 00:16:39,142 --> 00:16:41,742 Speaker 1: in your child's class, the more valuable because the class 331 00:16:41,822 --> 00:16:45,102 Speaker 1: is likely to be better run, less disrupted, less loud. 332 00:16:45,862 --> 00:16:47,862 Speaker 1: It all makes me a bit sad, to be honest. 333 00:16:48,382 --> 00:16:51,342 Speaker 1: I have a boy and then a girl. And when 334 00:16:51,542 --> 00:16:54,062 Speaker 1: this happened, I have a friend who is French who 335 00:16:54,102 --> 00:16:54,662 Speaker 1: said to me. 336 00:16:54,702 --> 00:16:56,382 Speaker 4: Ah leschois duro. 337 00:16:56,822 --> 00:16:58,742 Speaker 1: I said, what is that and she said, it's the 338 00:16:58,862 --> 00:17:02,542 Speaker 1: choice of kings because going back historically in France and 339 00:17:02,862 --> 00:17:05,982 Speaker 1: in other monarchies around the world, kings wanted a boy 340 00:17:06,061 --> 00:17:09,621 Speaker 1: first to secure the lineage in that very sexist way 341 00:17:09,622 --> 00:17:12,982 Speaker 1: of monarchies everywhere, and then a girl because girls, you know, 342 00:17:13,061 --> 00:17:16,022 Speaker 1: they dress more nicely and the people love looking at 343 00:17:16,022 --> 00:17:19,821 Speaker 1: their clothes, and that's what royal families wanted. And I 344 00:17:19,821 --> 00:17:23,742 Speaker 1: guess it's understandable that as women are delaying childbirth and 345 00:17:24,022 --> 00:17:27,901 Speaker 1: as people are having fewer kids, particularly in rich countries. 346 00:17:28,302 --> 00:17:31,221 Speaker 1: It's not surprising that they want the choice that is 347 00:17:31,262 --> 00:17:35,141 Speaker 1: considered easier, because we do consider girls to be easier 348 00:17:35,141 --> 00:17:38,422 Speaker 1: For all those reasons. It still makes me sad, though, 349 00:17:38,462 --> 00:17:41,821 Speaker 1: and I wonder if part of it is that we 350 00:17:41,901 --> 00:17:44,022 Speaker 1: can see that the boys are not okay. They are 351 00:17:44,022 --> 00:17:47,942 Speaker 1: behind in school, they are behind in life. We see 352 00:17:47,982 --> 00:17:51,661 Speaker 1: TV shows and movies about in cell culture, it's the 353 00:17:51,742 --> 00:17:54,542 Speaker 1: men are not okay. And I feel like we're making 354 00:17:54,661 --> 00:17:58,101 Speaker 1: choices based on what we think boys and girls are 355 00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:00,742 Speaker 1: rather than what they are capable of or what they 356 00:18:00,782 --> 00:18:03,381 Speaker 1: could be, which, after all, isn't that the point of parenting? 357 00:18:03,821 --> 00:18:05,982 Speaker 2: I know, I thought that after adolescence. I thought, I 358 00:18:05,982 --> 00:18:07,581 Speaker 2: don't think a lot of people are watching that show 359 00:18:07,661 --> 00:18:09,861 Speaker 2: going I can't wait to parent a teenage boy like 360 00:18:09,901 --> 00:18:13,061 Speaker 2: it feels terrifying a lot of ways. How about you, Stacy, 361 00:18:13,061 --> 00:18:14,061 Speaker 2: what do you think is behind it? 362 00:18:14,222 --> 00:18:14,422 Speaker 4: Yeah? 363 00:18:14,462 --> 00:18:17,341 Speaker 3: I think there's an assumed closeness between a daughter and 364 00:18:17,381 --> 00:18:20,101 Speaker 3: their mother, which is not necessarily the case. It's a 365 00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:23,381 Speaker 3: sweeping generalization, but I think for women, when you are 366 00:18:23,422 --> 00:18:25,902 Speaker 3: thinking about the fact that, especially if you're having children later, 367 00:18:25,942 --> 00:18:28,661 Speaker 3: that you may only have one child or you're making 368 00:18:28,702 --> 00:18:31,542 Speaker 3: that decision that you're definitely only having one child, that 369 00:18:31,621 --> 00:18:33,821 Speaker 3: you go, well, I'm familiar with that, Like, I know 370 00:18:34,061 --> 00:18:36,461 Speaker 3: what to do there. I'll be the mother's side for 371 00:18:36,502 --> 00:18:39,461 Speaker 3: when the grandchildren come. I'll be the mother's side for 372 00:18:39,502 --> 00:18:41,621 Speaker 3: the wedding. Like I feel like a mother and a 373 00:18:41,702 --> 00:18:44,661 Speaker 3: daughter being close. Everyone goes, oh, isn't that sweet? A 374 00:18:44,702 --> 00:18:46,542 Speaker 3: mother and a son are close, And it's a Mormon 375 00:18:46,581 --> 00:18:47,382 Speaker 3: baits and psychos. 376 00:18:47,462 --> 00:18:49,422 Speaker 4: That's so true. That's so true. 377 00:18:49,462 --> 00:18:51,901 Speaker 3: It's seen as toxic somehow if a mother is super 378 00:18:51,901 --> 00:18:54,902 Speaker 3: close with their son. So I think maybe that's part 379 00:18:54,982 --> 00:18:55,222 Speaker 3: of it. 380 00:18:56,022 --> 00:18:59,742 Speaker 1: An article this week rocked my world, turn me upside down, 381 00:19:00,182 --> 00:19:03,662 Speaker 1: potentially cause some bones to break. Let me explain. It 382 00:19:03,742 --> 00:19:07,341 Speaker 1: was called are You in Trampoline Denial? And it was 383 00:19:07,341 --> 00:19:11,022 Speaker 1: from the cut. Like the author, Lady Arnold Ratliffe, I 384 00:19:11,141 --> 00:19:15,702 Speaker 1: have long heard rumors that trampolines are in fact incredibly dangerous. 385 00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:17,821 Speaker 1: I am rolling my eyes as I say this. For 386 00:19:17,901 --> 00:19:21,262 Speaker 1: many years now, the American Academy of Pediatrics has said 387 00:19:21,302 --> 00:19:24,141 Speaker 1: that no trampoline is safe for children under six, and 388 00:19:24,182 --> 00:19:27,222 Speaker 1: that no trampoline outside a gymnastics program is safe for 389 00:19:27,302 --> 00:19:30,222 Speaker 1: children over six. But again I had rolled my eyes 390 00:19:30,222 --> 00:19:33,542 Speaker 1: at this, I had silently judged those pediatricians as kill joys. 391 00:19:33,581 --> 00:19:35,941 Speaker 1: And I held my child's fifth birthday party at a 392 00:19:35,982 --> 00:19:36,941 Speaker 1: trampoline park. 393 00:19:37,061 --> 00:19:39,302 Speaker 2: Did everyone come? Or were there some who protested? 394 00:19:39,621 --> 00:19:43,381 Speaker 1: No? Everyone can. They did a thing about trampoline parks 395 00:19:43,381 --> 00:19:46,181 Speaker 1: and five year old boys. Say what you will about boys. 396 00:19:46,381 --> 00:19:49,861 Speaker 1: They need to burn up some energy and that's what 397 00:19:49,942 --> 00:19:52,981 Speaker 1: trampoline parks are for. However, I can no longer dismiss 398 00:19:53,022 --> 00:19:57,581 Speaker 1: the rumors because this piece had some absolutely horrifying statistics 399 00:19:57,621 --> 00:20:00,622 Speaker 1: in them. I'm going to share three. First statistic, an 400 00:20:00,742 --> 00:20:04,262 Speaker 1: estimated three hundred thousand trampoline injuries a year occur in 401 00:20:04,302 --> 00:20:09,022 Speaker 1: the United States, that so many. Statistic two twenty percent 402 00:20:09,061 --> 00:20:14,622 Speaker 1: of those involve head injuries, including concussions. Statistic three eleven 403 00:20:14,661 --> 00:20:18,302 Speaker 1: percent of injuries at trampoline parks are significant. And you 404 00:20:18,341 --> 00:20:21,342 Speaker 1: know when doctors use the term significant, they're actually they 405 00:20:21,422 --> 00:20:23,701 Speaker 1: actually mean significant, as opposed to when I use the 406 00:20:23,742 --> 00:20:26,941 Speaker 1: term significant when I can't decide what decision about what 407 00:20:27,022 --> 00:20:29,662 Speaker 1: to eat for lunch. So this is major. And then 408 00:20:29,702 --> 00:20:31,821 Speaker 1: also the waiver you sign, which I'm sure none of 409 00:20:31,861 --> 00:20:33,982 Speaker 1: us have read because it's a PDF and it goes 410 00:20:34,022 --> 00:20:37,222 Speaker 1: on for many, many pages. Turns out that waiver basically 411 00:20:37,302 --> 00:20:39,902 Speaker 1: signs the way your and your child's life should anything 412 00:20:40,022 --> 00:20:44,141 Speaker 1: terrible happen at the trampoline park. So where does this 413 00:20:44,262 --> 00:20:46,221 Speaker 1: leave this? And what am I meant to do with 414 00:20:46,262 --> 00:20:49,222 Speaker 1: my children on rainy winter days to stop them from 415 00:20:49,222 --> 00:20:52,341 Speaker 1: climbing all over my furniture? Are we all just kill joys? 416 00:20:52,381 --> 00:20:52,581 Speaker 3: Now? 417 00:20:52,702 --> 00:20:54,542 Speaker 1: Give me a permission to believe this Jesse. 418 00:20:55,182 --> 00:20:59,662 Speaker 2: Look, I I think there's an element of killed joy 419 00:20:59,702 --> 00:21:02,542 Speaker 2: to it, because I went all right following this. Firstly, 420 00:21:02,621 --> 00:21:06,782 Speaker 2: this article was incredibly percuisive. I read this and it 421 00:21:06,861 --> 00:21:11,462 Speaker 2: talked about the trampoline fracture, like the particular break double bounce, 422 00:21:11,621 --> 00:21:12,302 Speaker 2: the double. 423 00:21:12,061 --> 00:21:15,782 Speaker 1: Bounce, and we explain the double bounce, so the you 424 00:21:15,821 --> 00:21:19,702 Speaker 1: go no, no, you expected the double bounce is when someone's 425 00:21:19,782 --> 00:21:22,742 Speaker 1: legs are already coming down straight and then another person 426 00:21:22,821 --> 00:21:26,902 Speaker 1: bounces and it makes their legs compound and cause a fracture. 427 00:21:27,182 --> 00:21:29,581 Speaker 2: And the break is exactly the break I had, so 428 00:21:29,661 --> 00:21:31,141 Speaker 2: I know how bad it is. It's the break of 429 00:21:31,141 --> 00:21:33,861 Speaker 2: the tibia and you actually hear a pop is and 430 00:21:33,901 --> 00:21:35,782 Speaker 2: you need surgery and stuff like, and for kids to 431 00:21:35,782 --> 00:21:37,861 Speaker 2: get the break is even worse. Than adults because of 432 00:21:37,942 --> 00:21:41,302 Speaker 2: something about growth plates and like growth plate, growth plates. 433 00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:42,461 Speaker 2: You don't want to hear growth plates. 434 00:21:42,502 --> 00:21:44,421 Speaker 1: You don't you don't want to hear growth plays. 435 00:21:44,462 --> 00:21:46,182 Speaker 2: I'm like, I thought it was just a cheeky little 436 00:21:46,182 --> 00:21:49,141 Speaker 2: broken wrist, but no, that one, no no fun. So 437 00:21:49,222 --> 00:21:51,381 Speaker 2: I read it and went, no, this is really bad. Okay, okay, 438 00:21:51,462 --> 00:21:53,821 Speaker 2: no trampoline. But then I thought, where do we draw 439 00:21:53,861 --> 00:21:56,942 Speaker 2: the line, because what are kids do outside trampolines? 440 00:21:57,381 --> 00:21:57,941 Speaker 1: Scooters? 441 00:21:57,982 --> 00:22:00,621 Speaker 2: Well, my sister broke a wrist on a scooter, but. 442 00:22:00,942 --> 00:22:04,542 Speaker 3: There's way more dangerous, sure surely, surely skateboarding. 443 00:22:04,661 --> 00:22:08,621 Speaker 1: Also, how do we balance this against what Jonathan Yah 444 00:22:08,821 --> 00:22:11,501 Speaker 1: was telling us about how the online world is so 445 00:22:11,621 --> 00:22:14,141 Speaker 1: much more dangerous and the offline world. Was he not 446 00:22:14,222 --> 00:22:16,502 Speaker 1: talking about trampoline parks though, exactly? 447 00:22:16,542 --> 00:22:18,381 Speaker 2: And this is the thing is, it's like, okay, so 448 00:22:18,422 --> 00:22:20,742 Speaker 2: we take them out of the skateboarding parks. They know 449 00:22:20,782 --> 00:22:22,622 Speaker 2: you should never go to the beach, don't go near 450 00:22:22,661 --> 00:22:26,381 Speaker 2: a body of water, No roller skating, jumping castles, rock climb. 451 00:22:26,462 --> 00:22:27,302 Speaker 1: I forget the screen. 452 00:22:27,542 --> 00:22:31,181 Speaker 2: Oh any sport. No screen is like they. 453 00:22:30,742 --> 00:22:33,142 Speaker 1: Meant to be doing with their time. Don't say read 454 00:22:33,182 --> 00:22:33,581 Speaker 1: a book. 455 00:22:34,341 --> 00:22:35,421 Speaker 2: I don't want to read a book. 456 00:22:35,942 --> 00:22:37,061 Speaker 1: What do you do? 457 00:22:37,141 --> 00:22:40,581 Speaker 2: And to your point, Amelia, like the reason trampoline parks 458 00:22:40,581 --> 00:22:42,542 Speaker 2: are so popular is because what are we to do 459 00:22:42,581 --> 00:22:44,661 Speaker 2: on a rainy day? Tell me what we are to 460 00:22:44,702 --> 00:22:47,022 Speaker 2: do other than turn the television on. So I think 461 00:22:47,061 --> 00:22:49,782 Speaker 2: it's like that. There is an element of risk with 462 00:22:49,982 --> 00:22:53,941 Speaker 2: any physical play. But if we want children and adults 463 00:22:53,982 --> 00:22:56,302 Speaker 2: and human beings to be physically active and engage in 464 00:22:56,302 --> 00:22:59,061 Speaker 2: the world, then every now and then we're going to 465 00:22:59,101 --> 00:23:00,821 Speaker 2: break a bone. That's a very unpopular thing. 466 00:23:01,502 --> 00:23:03,581 Speaker 3: I would argue that this is more low risk than 467 00:23:03,621 --> 00:23:06,061 Speaker 3: them going down those burning hot slides in the middle 468 00:23:06,061 --> 00:23:07,222 Speaker 3: of summer, oh. 469 00:23:07,022 --> 00:23:09,502 Speaker 4: Where they could end up with rashes down their legs. 470 00:23:09,702 --> 00:23:13,861 Speaker 1: This is interesting, Stacy. You have just hit my third rail, 471 00:23:14,022 --> 00:23:17,502 Speaker 1: which is playgrounds. Yes, because we're in this funny limbo 472 00:23:17,581 --> 00:23:20,061 Speaker 1: lane right now. Because risk taking is seen as desirable 473 00:23:20,101 --> 00:23:23,022 Speaker 1: for kids, we all want to raise risk takers, and 474 00:23:23,101 --> 00:23:25,981 Speaker 1: yet we don't actually want our children to take any risks. 475 00:23:26,101 --> 00:23:29,742 Speaker 1: And these contradictions played out in a very interesting situation 476 00:23:29,861 --> 00:23:33,302 Speaker 1: for me. Recently, I went to a playground in Bury 477 00:23:33,381 --> 00:23:36,542 Speaker 1: in New South Wales, which The Daily Mail has described 478 00:23:36,581 --> 00:23:39,821 Speaker 1: as Australia's most dangerous playground. So naturally I read that 479 00:23:39,861 --> 00:23:40,942 Speaker 1: and I had to go there. 480 00:23:41,101 --> 00:23:43,581 Speaker 2: Your son saw it and was like, take me there immediately. 481 00:23:43,861 --> 00:23:46,742 Speaker 1: He's a risk taker, aren't I a good parent? Doctor Becky. 482 00:23:47,222 --> 00:23:50,861 Speaker 1: At least thirty parents have reported broken bones, fractures, burns, 483 00:23:51,262 --> 00:23:54,141 Speaker 1: and other serious injuries to kids at that playground. I 484 00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:56,501 Speaker 1: don't quite understand the burns. I don't want to know. 485 00:23:56,942 --> 00:23:59,742 Speaker 1: But this playground is actually the vanguard of this new 486 00:23:59,821 --> 00:24:03,022 Speaker 1: style of playground which does experiment with risk taking. So 487 00:24:03,061 --> 00:24:05,542 Speaker 1: it's got a faster flying fox, it's got a higher 488 00:24:05,621 --> 00:24:08,502 Speaker 1: piece of climbing equipment. It's got a bizarre giant beer 489 00:24:08,542 --> 00:24:11,302 Speaker 1: barrel that your children all around it. There's no beer, 490 00:24:11,341 --> 00:24:14,542 Speaker 1: don't worry. But what I found interesting there there were 491 00:24:14,581 --> 00:24:17,141 Speaker 1: these signs that said that you were not allowed to 492 00:24:17,141 --> 00:24:19,341 Speaker 1: help your children on the play equipment. It said, your 493 00:24:19,381 --> 00:24:22,222 Speaker 1: children know their own limits and they will play safely 494 00:24:22,262 --> 00:24:24,662 Speaker 1: within them. The minute you were helping a child climb 495 00:24:24,742 --> 00:24:27,781 Speaker 1: up to the next level of a climbing structure, you 496 00:24:27,821 --> 00:24:29,701 Speaker 1: are putting them in danger. You're putting them in a 497 00:24:29,742 --> 00:24:32,982 Speaker 1: potentially unsafe situation because you're pushing them beyond their limits. 498 00:24:33,621 --> 00:24:35,502 Speaker 1: What does this all add up to? How do we 499 00:24:35,581 --> 00:24:37,061 Speaker 1: figure out the right amount of risk. 500 00:24:37,341 --> 00:24:40,022 Speaker 2: That's fascinating because I think people do do that and 501 00:24:40,061 --> 00:24:43,621 Speaker 2: don't realize that the hovering and the not allowing the 502 00:24:43,702 --> 00:24:45,942 Speaker 2: confidence to grow and that kind of thing can actually 503 00:24:46,182 --> 00:24:49,702 Speaker 2: cause harm. And you point to as well the revolution 504 00:24:49,782 --> 00:24:52,421 Speaker 2: in kids playgrounds, which is I remember when I was 505 00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:54,422 Speaker 2: at school, a girl fell off the monkey bars and 506 00:24:54,742 --> 00:24:57,381 Speaker 2: there was a something was hanging out when she did it, 507 00:24:57,422 --> 00:25:01,502 Speaker 2: and like elbow through arm, like horrific break. Now you 508 00:25:01,542 --> 00:25:04,181 Speaker 2: looked at that equipment and went, that is actually avoidable. 509 00:25:04,381 --> 00:25:07,542 Speaker 2: Like there are such regulations, which is really really positive 510 00:25:07,581 --> 00:25:10,462 Speaker 2: from the floor being a little bit more bouncy and 511 00:25:10,782 --> 00:25:12,661 Speaker 2: not being so high and all that kind of stuff. 512 00:25:12,661 --> 00:25:16,621 Speaker 2: That's great, But I still think that we've got to 513 00:25:16,702 --> 00:25:19,981 Speaker 2: accept that our kids are gonna get hurt sometimes. And 514 00:25:20,422 --> 00:25:24,101 Speaker 2: with this too, I found the point pertinent that it 515 00:25:24,182 --> 00:25:26,661 Speaker 2: is far less risky to jump on a home trampoline 516 00:25:26,942 --> 00:25:28,861 Speaker 2: than in a trampoline park. So the issue in your 517 00:25:28,861 --> 00:25:32,261 Speaker 2: trampoline park is that it's often the little kids that 518 00:25:32,381 --> 00:25:34,462 Speaker 2: the smaller kids that get hurt by the bigger kids 519 00:25:34,502 --> 00:25:38,261 Speaker 2: who jabble, bounce them or land on them. And there 520 00:25:38,262 --> 00:25:39,782 Speaker 2: are no springs, So you think it would be fine. 521 00:25:39,821 --> 00:25:42,941 Speaker 2: That's not what's hurting them. That's you know, spinal injuries 522 00:25:43,022 --> 00:25:46,142 Speaker 2: or the crap that you hear way safer on a trampoline. 523 00:25:46,422 --> 00:25:49,502 Speaker 1: The springs at home, I have to add, are hurting them. 524 00:25:50,542 --> 00:25:52,622 Speaker 1: The nutritions wanted me to make that clear. 525 00:25:53,022 --> 00:25:55,262 Speaker 3: Mine at Hope is like a padded cell. I love 526 00:25:55,341 --> 00:25:56,622 Speaker 3: sending my daughter. 527 00:25:56,381 --> 00:25:58,421 Speaker 2: Out of her trail one with the big netting. 528 00:25:58,621 --> 00:25:59,742 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, big netting. 529 00:25:59,861 --> 00:26:02,262 Speaker 3: But I was actually hoping that this was going to 530 00:26:02,302 --> 00:26:04,941 Speaker 3: catch on because my pelvic floor is not what it 531 00:26:05,022 --> 00:26:06,701 Speaker 3: used to be and my daughter wants me on the 532 00:26:06,702 --> 00:26:08,781 Speaker 3: trampoline with her a lot. So I was happy to 533 00:26:08,821 --> 00:26:11,861 Speaker 3: be discouraged from getting on there for safety reasons. 534 00:26:11,901 --> 00:26:13,542 Speaker 2: And of course, what you have to tell your daughter 535 00:26:13,901 --> 00:26:16,662 Speaker 2: is I've read the safety research because I'm such good mother, 536 00:26:17,061 --> 00:26:19,142 Speaker 2: and you should only have one person at a time. 537 00:26:19,222 --> 00:26:21,502 Speaker 2: That's true, because that's when we get dangerous. So mummy's 538 00:26:21,542 --> 00:26:23,142 Speaker 2: gonna scroll on her phone. 539 00:26:23,182 --> 00:26:25,822 Speaker 1: Way. 540 00:26:26,821 --> 00:26:30,702 Speaker 2: It is time for our recommendations of the week, Stacy, 541 00:26:30,702 --> 00:26:31,462 Speaker 2: I want you to go first. 542 00:26:31,462 --> 00:26:33,901 Speaker 3: What have you got for kay? Mine this week is 543 00:26:34,022 --> 00:26:37,181 Speaker 3: very random. It's a recipe except it doesn't really exist. 544 00:26:38,462 --> 00:26:42,101 Speaker 3: I'm a terrible cook, but making this for dinner always 545 00:26:42,101 --> 00:26:43,942 Speaker 3: makes me look like I'm great, and I will bring 546 00:26:43,942 --> 00:26:46,302 Speaker 3: it in here for leftovers at least once a week, 547 00:26:46,341 --> 00:26:48,741 Speaker 3: and everyone thinks I'm really fancy. Everyone asked me to 548 00:26:48,742 --> 00:26:51,101 Speaker 3: tell them what it is, and it's so basic that 549 00:26:51,182 --> 00:26:52,741 Speaker 3: I don't even need to write it down for you 550 00:26:52,821 --> 00:26:54,662 Speaker 3: or send you a link, because I can just tell 551 00:26:54,702 --> 00:26:58,582 Speaker 3: you in one sentence. So it's just lamb mince instead 552 00:26:58,621 --> 00:27:01,701 Speaker 3: of beef mince, and I just do cumin, paprika and 553 00:27:01,782 --> 00:27:04,581 Speaker 3: cinnamon and tomato paste. You don't need measurements. 554 00:27:04,621 --> 00:27:05,861 Speaker 2: That's in my cupboard right now. 555 00:27:05,942 --> 00:27:08,302 Speaker 4: They coat I could do that, just go off vibes, 556 00:27:08,502 --> 00:27:10,302 Speaker 4: just whack it all in. It looks right to you. 557 00:27:10,381 --> 00:27:12,861 Speaker 3: Salt and pepper if you wish, don't go crazy. And 558 00:27:12,901 --> 00:27:15,542 Speaker 3: then I just cook zucchinis and potatoes in the air 559 00:27:15,581 --> 00:27:17,942 Speaker 3: fryer and whack it on top. 560 00:27:17,782 --> 00:27:20,182 Speaker 1: With How am I cooking the lamb itself? 561 00:27:20,422 --> 00:27:21,262 Speaker 4: Just in a fry pan? 562 00:27:21,422 --> 00:27:29,102 Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck one of those who does need step. 563 00:27:31,581 --> 00:27:34,381 Speaker 3: And I just put taziki on the top and it's delicious, 564 00:27:34,742 --> 00:27:37,661 Speaker 3: last for days and you look really talented when you're not. 565 00:27:37,821 --> 00:27:38,542 Speaker 1: I would eat that. 566 00:27:38,901 --> 00:27:39,581 Speaker 4: It's very good. 567 00:27:39,621 --> 00:27:41,622 Speaker 3: And my daughter actually does eat it, and she can 568 00:27:41,661 --> 00:27:43,582 Speaker 3: be a bit peach, pretty good eater, but she can 569 00:27:43,581 --> 00:27:45,742 Speaker 3: be a bit piggy. But it's kind of mild enough 570 00:27:45,782 --> 00:27:47,501 Speaker 3: that most kids, I think would eat it. 571 00:27:47,782 --> 00:27:49,701 Speaker 2: I have a confession, which is that my nearly two 572 00:27:49,782 --> 00:27:52,502 Speaker 2: year old has never eaten meat, not not for a preference. 573 00:27:52,581 --> 00:27:55,022 Speaker 2: She will not put meat in her mouth. And it 574 00:27:55,061 --> 00:27:59,381 Speaker 2: has been my goal to try and get something because 575 00:27:59,502 --> 00:27:59,821 Speaker 2: this is. 576 00:28:00,182 --> 00:28:01,782 Speaker 4: Cinnamon makes it taste like dessert. 577 00:28:01,861 --> 00:28:04,981 Speaker 2: Cinnamon's always That's what I do with the veggies. I 578 00:28:05,022 --> 00:28:06,942 Speaker 2: think that I could get some lamb into her that way. 579 00:28:06,982 --> 00:28:07,782 Speaker 1: I'm going to try it. 580 00:28:07,861 --> 00:28:09,702 Speaker 2: How about your Millia. 581 00:28:09,861 --> 00:28:12,821 Speaker 1: Mine is an attempt to answer the question that has 582 00:28:12,861 --> 00:28:15,261 Speaker 1: been running through this show, which is if our children 583 00:28:15,262 --> 00:28:17,462 Speaker 1: are not allowed on the screens, and they're not allowed 584 00:28:17,502 --> 00:28:21,502 Speaker 1: on the trampolines and the dfks who need to keep 585 00:28:21,542 --> 00:28:24,302 Speaker 1: their hands busy, I have a potential answer for you. 586 00:28:25,381 --> 00:28:29,661 Speaker 1: I was recently in a children's museum in San Francisco, 587 00:28:30,061 --> 00:28:34,182 Speaker 1: which I know sounds very fancy, but as listeners will 588 00:28:34,182 --> 00:28:37,381 Speaker 1: be aware, when you travel with children, all you do 589 00:28:37,422 --> 00:28:39,102 Speaker 1: when you go to a new place is you type 590 00:28:39,102 --> 00:28:42,542 Speaker 1: playgrounds or children's museum into Google Maps, and then you 591 00:28:42,661 --> 00:28:44,822 Speaker 1: end up going there every single day of your holiday, 592 00:28:44,822 --> 00:28:46,902 Speaker 1: which is precisely what we did. We went to the 593 00:28:46,942 --> 00:28:49,302 Speaker 1: Children's Museum and they had a brilliant thing there that 594 00:28:49,382 --> 00:28:51,622 Speaker 1: took me immediately back. You know when you see something 595 00:28:51,661 --> 00:28:54,421 Speaker 1: that just immediately gives you a flashback to your childhood. 596 00:28:54,462 --> 00:28:57,462 Speaker 3: I love that when that happens. It was a spirograph. 597 00:28:58,062 --> 00:29:00,462 Speaker 3: So this was the things that looked like tongs. 598 00:29:01,422 --> 00:29:02,941 Speaker 1: Yes, I need a visual of this. 599 00:29:03,182 --> 00:29:04,542 Speaker 4: I'm going to questa con Jesse. 600 00:29:04,982 --> 00:29:05,542 Speaker 2: Did I go to. 601 00:29:08,222 --> 00:29:10,701 Speaker 1: This is a device out of the eighties. It's not 602 00:29:10,742 --> 00:29:13,742 Speaker 1: even the nineties. I think this was nineteen eighties technology. 603 00:29:13,822 --> 00:29:17,222 Speaker 1: Like we're talking Alan Bond, We're talking Australia winning the 604 00:29:18,062 --> 00:29:21,302 Speaker 1: America's Cup. This is what we're talking about here. But 605 00:29:21,742 --> 00:29:24,701 Speaker 1: it was cutting edge at the time. And basically what 606 00:29:24,742 --> 00:29:27,342 Speaker 1: it was was two pieces of plastics in a circle 607 00:29:27,382 --> 00:29:29,902 Speaker 1: shape and you put one circle inside the other, and 608 00:29:30,062 --> 00:29:33,142 Speaker 1: the circles have rings with teeth, and then you use 609 00:29:33,182 --> 00:29:37,661 Speaker 1: the rings to create the most perfect geometric shapes. So 610 00:29:37,822 --> 00:29:44,222 Speaker 1: basically you can create these utterly mesmerizing, almost trippy patterns 611 00:29:44,822 --> 00:29:48,421 Speaker 1: with the different spirographs. And I of course leapt on 612 00:29:48,422 --> 00:29:51,262 Speaker 1: this at the Children's museum, and being a DFK, did 613 00:29:51,302 --> 00:29:53,022 Speaker 1: not want to leave when I was told by other 614 00:29:53,062 --> 00:29:55,461 Speaker 1: members of my party that we needed to go to 615 00:29:55,542 --> 00:29:58,502 Speaker 1: another room. And then I promptly bought a travel tin. 616 00:29:58,822 --> 00:30:02,181 Speaker 1: Very cute. You can very easily travel with it, as 617 00:30:02,222 --> 00:30:04,182 Speaker 1: the name suggests, take it to a restaurant, and it's 618 00:30:04,262 --> 00:30:06,542 Speaker 1: just a little tin with the spirographs in. It takes 619 00:30:06,582 --> 00:30:09,421 Speaker 1: some paper, just use a regular pen or a pen 620 00:30:10,502 --> 00:30:14,382 Speaker 1: and you will find it very soothing. I guarantee it's 621 00:30:14,422 --> 00:30:18,382 Speaker 1: almost meditative to create these geometric shapes and then hopefully 622 00:30:18,502 --> 00:30:21,702 Speaker 1: one day, fingers crossed, your children will find them soothing 623 00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:22,702 Speaker 1: as well. 624 00:30:22,862 --> 00:30:25,782 Speaker 2: I have gotten really into coloring and lately because I'm 625 00:30:25,862 --> 00:30:28,062 Speaker 2: doing it at the same time as as Larner, and 626 00:30:28,102 --> 00:30:29,382 Speaker 2: I'm like, this is quite. 627 00:30:29,182 --> 00:30:33,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's something in that we lost the art. 628 00:30:33,822 --> 00:30:35,941 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And I'm doing like my cross hatching and 629 00:30:36,022 --> 00:30:38,462 Speaker 2: like my shading, and then she comes and up. 630 00:30:38,382 --> 00:30:41,462 Speaker 4: And I'm like, back off, kid, back off. 631 00:30:41,661 --> 00:30:45,542 Speaker 2: My recommendation is eat, sleep, repeat. Have either of you 632 00:30:45,622 --> 00:30:46,862 Speaker 2: listened to this podcast? 633 00:30:46,702 --> 00:30:47,702 Speaker 4: A great podcast? 634 00:30:47,742 --> 00:30:49,822 Speaker 2: I love it. So I was talking before about Kelly 635 00:30:49,902 --> 00:30:53,102 Speaker 2: McCarran and she is on Your Beauty. She's been on 636 00:30:53,142 --> 00:30:55,742 Speaker 2: a bunch of MUMMYA podcasts, and she has been making 637 00:30:55,822 --> 00:30:58,181 Speaker 2: this podcast with Key Researls, who also used to be 638 00:30:58,182 --> 00:31:00,342 Speaker 2: on The Spill, used to work at Mummy Out. And 639 00:31:00,902 --> 00:31:04,222 Speaker 2: I have loved this podcast since it first came out. 640 00:31:04,262 --> 00:31:07,942 Speaker 2: And it's really hard to explain why because I generally 641 00:31:08,222 --> 00:31:11,461 Speaker 2: don't listen to a lot of parents podcasts, but this 642 00:31:12,342 --> 00:31:15,182 Speaker 2: is It feels really warm, it feels really friendly. There's 643 00:31:15,222 --> 00:31:19,461 Speaker 2: no judgment. They are very vulnerable about their own experiences, 644 00:31:19,462 --> 00:31:22,382 Speaker 2: but then it's very relatable. So for example, there have 645 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:26,022 Speaker 2: been episodes about is my toddler a bully? One of 646 00:31:26,022 --> 00:31:28,262 Speaker 2: my favorites was be honest, how bad was it going 647 00:31:28,302 --> 00:31:32,382 Speaker 2: from one to two? Like the Transition. Kee recently shared 648 00:31:32,382 --> 00:31:34,582 Speaker 2: her second birth story. I could listen to birth stories 649 00:31:34,582 --> 00:31:37,502 Speaker 2: all day, every day. I just love that it can 650 00:31:37,542 --> 00:31:41,062 Speaker 2: be really helpful. Sometimes they speak to experts. They actually 651 00:31:41,182 --> 00:31:43,421 Speaker 2: started off independently and they've just come on to the 652 00:31:43,462 --> 00:31:46,062 Speaker 2: Mummeya network. I've been yellingked for years, get those girls 653 00:31:46,062 --> 00:31:48,062 Speaker 2: on our network. They are just so so good, and 654 00:31:48,142 --> 00:31:52,062 Speaker 2: so finally they are. They've got new art. It's just brilliant. 655 00:31:52,142 --> 00:31:54,222 Speaker 2: I love what they do, eat, sleep, repeate. There's a 656 00:31:54,262 --> 00:31:56,742 Speaker 2: link now show notes. That is all we have time 657 00:31:56,822 --> 00:31:59,742 Speaker 2: for on Parenting out Loud today. We will see you 658 00:31:59,782 --> 00:32:00,782 Speaker 2: next Saturday. 659 00:32:00,502 --> 00:32:01,782 Speaker 1: See you at the trampoline part. 660 00:32:01,862 --> 00:32:09,142 Speaker 4: Bye.