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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Momma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Monday, the eighteenth of November.

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Speaker 1: And I am Holly Wayne right, I'm mea Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stephens.

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Speaker 2: And on our show today, surely the tallest of poppies

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Speaker 2: is the man who declares himself the sexiest man alive.

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Speaker 2: So who's the latest and what's the strategy? Also bullying

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Speaker 2: phones and a teenage girl's legacy? What actually needs to

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Speaker 2: change to fulfill what's being called Charlotte's wish? And has

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Speaker 2: it been the year of the thirsty midlife woman? Bridget

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Speaker 2: Jones is back, She's dating a younger man, and at

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Speaker 2: least one millennial communist thinks enough now.

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Speaker 4: But first, Jesse, in case you missed it, when you

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Speaker 4: put up your Christmas decorations apparently says a lot about

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Speaker 4: have either of you guys put up your tree, your decorations,

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Speaker 4: your lights.

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Speaker 2: I'm exceptionally strict about this, famous in my family for

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Speaker 2: being exceptionally what's the rule? Absolutely not until midway through

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Speaker 2: December at the earliest.

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Speaker 3: Checks out. Ma'am, how about you.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny you bring this up today, because just

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Speaker 1: yesterday I said to Coco, let's put up the Christmas

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Speaker 1: tree soon. Luna will love it. It will be so

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Speaker 1: fun because for me, firstly, it's a thing to do,

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Speaker 1: and secondly, it's shiny, sparkly, like it's my dream.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, that's actually a good point. That might be

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Speaker 4: the other point in your personality. You're mayor and you

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Speaker 4: like the sparkles. But people who put their Christmas decorations

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Speaker 4: up early, so that means October or November are conceives. Well, no, Holly,

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Speaker 4: they're considered more sociable, joyful, and nostalgia.

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Speaker 1: No, they're not so.

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Speaker 4: Professor Erlinger a Turner. He's a clinical psychologist, so he

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Speaker 4: knows more than you, Holly. He says that early decorations

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Speaker 4: can be explained by the anticipation of joy theory.

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Speaker 1: There we go. You'll big on that whole.

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Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with this because if you put your Christmas

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Speaker 2: decorations up now, by Christmas, you don't even see them.

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Speaker 2: They're invisible. They're just waolpaper, right, Whereas Christmas. I love

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Speaker 2: Christmas so much like I love it. It's a very

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Speaker 2: specific period of time. It's precious, it's special.

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Speaker 3: No, you can't have it.

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Speaker 4: All year, says that anticipating joy. You've got to lean

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Speaker 4: into it, and you've got to prolong it because it

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Speaker 4: boosts your mood and well being and your sense of

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Speaker 4: excitement and happiness. That feeling you're talking about just prolonge.

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Speaker 2: No, no, but the anticipation of doing it is the

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Speaker 2: exciting thing. I have this whole thing with the kids.

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Speaker 2: We're not allowed to play Christmas music until we're on

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Speaker 2: our way to get the Christmas tree, not allowed to

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Speaker 2: have any of that. That's the anticity.

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Speaker 3: You get a real siting, a real Christmas tree every time.

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Speaker 1: Are you also one of those people that complain about

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Speaker 1: hot cross buns being available to it?

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Speaker 3: I don't care about that or eggs.

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Speaker 4: Apparently early decorators are also more nostalgic as peaple because

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Speaker 4: they want to relive their own childhoods is that you.

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Speaker 2: I'm very nostalgic about Christmas. That's why it has to

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Speaker 2: be protected.

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Speaker 4: Well, this bit I think speaks to you. Putting them

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Speaker 4: up early is a signifier of sociability because it means

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Speaker 4: that you're someone who's trying to establish new friendships. So

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Speaker 4: when you decorate your house, you like the idea inside

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Speaker 4: my house? No, No, Like, let's say you put up Christmas

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Speaker 4: lights and people come past and they like chat to you.

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Speaker 4: Holly doesn't want to be chatted to before mid December.

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Speaker 4: I think that people who put them up early optimist.

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Speaker 4: It is very hope punk, it is very I love joy,

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Speaker 4: I love the sparkly things.

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Speaker 3: Also impatient, impatient.

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Speaker 4: I've got three famous people that I'm gonna throw out,

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Speaker 4: and I want you to tell me whether you think.

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Speaker 2: What else you haven't discussed. And it's because I'm English.

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Speaker 2: It's classy to wait, class classy. It's like this is

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Speaker 2: a special thing, right, we protect special things. You can't

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Speaker 2: just go Tensel all the time, la la lad, It's not.

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Speaker 3: That's what can I just ask you before I get

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Speaker 3: to these three people, when do you take him down?

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Speaker 3: I take them down because there is a right answer, yeah.

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Speaker 2: January sixth, but I take them down usually on the second.

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Speaker 3: Apparently twelve days of Christmas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, come on now.

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Speaker 1: All right, we can leave our Christmas lights up till January.

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Speaker 1: January Okay, Saylor Swift, this is our house or February,

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Speaker 1: this is our house. We make the rules.

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Speaker 4: I'm assuming that's a learri it is. Okay, these are

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Speaker 4: three famous people. You can tell me whether they put

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Speaker 4: their Christmas decorations up early. Anthony Alberenezy.

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Speaker 2: Oh No, he's busy, very busy.

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Speaker 3: I reckon he's an early decorations guy.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: Oh, he's sociable and he's just like he likes a

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Speaker 4: bit of joy, bit of fun.

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Speaker 3: I think he's nostalgia for.

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Speaker 2: I bet his office decorations go up quite early. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because that's another thing, right, depending on how much time

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Speaker 2: you take.

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Speaker 3: People have started here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you put Christmas decorations up early so that everybody

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Speaker 2: can get in the spirit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, second one, Jlo.

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Speaker 2: See, the thing is this is tricky because the j

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Speaker 2: Lo's and the Kardashians of the world, they have very

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Speaker 2: expensive decorators who do this stuff for them, right, and

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Speaker 2: they one up themselves every year. So do you remember

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Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian's like all white Christmas trees. That would be

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Speaker 2: six months in the planning if you would want that

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Speaker 2: to be up for a while.

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Speaker 1: We wants to.

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Speaker 2: Justify the millions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: Do you know why she can't because she's got another

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Speaker 1: festival before that, which is Thanksgiving. So it's just been Halloween,

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Speaker 1: it's Thanksgiving. I was actually looking at a photo that

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Speaker 1: she posted to her social of herself outside her fuck

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Speaker 1: off mansion with some kind of tacky looking like signs

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Speaker 1: about this way to the pumpkin Patashi and some sort

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Speaker 1: of fake very and so you're right, hole, it was

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Speaker 1: very like get the decorators in. So I think she

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the festive themes are for Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: But then I think she's got.

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Speaker 2: To pace herself.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well I have one more and there is the

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Speaker 4: right answer to this, Megan Markle. Is she an early

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Speaker 4: decorator or is she? Is she waiting like Collie? She's

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Speaker 4: an early decorator. She is so smiley and hopunk. I

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Speaker 4: reckon that she would be. She'd have them up already.

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Speaker 1: I think she is so kind of earnest that she

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Speaker 1: would not want to put up Christmas decorations without also

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Speaker 1: putting up Punker decorations and Kwanza decorations.

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Speaker 2: But she lives with an Englishman and english people are

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Speaker 2: very serious about Christmas in general, because it's the only

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Speaker 2: thing that's nice at that time of year. Right, it's winter,

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Speaker 2: it's dark for fourteen hours of the day, like your

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Speaker 2: fairy lights. So he wouldn't want the decorations of December first,

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: The sexiest man alive for twenty twenty four has been

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Speaker 1: named by People magazine, and it is someone that you

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Speaker 1: may have never heard of. His name is John Krasinski.

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Speaker 3: People know John Christmas from the off.

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Speaker 2: He's married to Emily Blunt.

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Speaker 3: Tuna sandwich on my first day, so and he started

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Speaker 3: calling me a big tuner.

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of them actually know my real name. Yes,

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Speaker 1: out loud. That is how we deny famous people by

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Speaker 1: which women they're married to.

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Speaker 2: Mister Emily Blunt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well you've got.

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Speaker 1: Ahead of me because I had a quick primer on

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Speaker 1: sexy John. He is that guy from.

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Speaker 3: The office Jim.

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Speaker 1: He played Jim. He's married to Emily Blunt. He's forty five.

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Speaker 1: They have two kids.

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Speaker 4: He also wrote the Quiet Plays. He starting the first one.

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Speaker 1: Yeap didn't start on the second one because he knew

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Speaker 1: he's not that much of a drawer card. Some would say,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's fine. What's interesting. People magazine

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Speaker 1: in the gossip tabloid magazine, you know, brands that are

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Speaker 1: still left. People magazine is like the official one of Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: It likes to do the right thing by publicists. It's

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Speaker 1: very mainstream, middle of the road. I guess the equivalent

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Speaker 1: would be the Australian Women's Weekly, but more gossipy.

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Speaker 2: It's like Hollywood's neighborhood newsletter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so if you read something in People, it's probably true. Probably, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's probably true.

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Speaker 1: They don't like to piss off publicists because they like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if a celebrity has an official announcement to

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Speaker 1: make it's a safe place.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. It's what they

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Speaker 2: want to tell you. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It's authorized, celeritzed, that's authorized.

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Speaker 1: Like all sort of magazine brands, its audience are rapidly

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Speaker 1: aging out and its relevance are sort of falling away

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Speaker 1: because we have TMZ, we have them, while we have

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Speaker 1: a million gossip sites. Daily Mail. They've been doing the

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Speaker 1: Sexiest Man Alive since the eighties. The first one, actually

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Speaker 1: do you know who was?

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Speaker 3: I do?

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Speaker 1: Mel Gibson Our very own nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: Five we've not disounded him yet.

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Speaker 1: And they've been doing it every year, and what's interesting

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Speaker 1: is how this year they have turned it into a

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Speaker 1: bit of a pop culture event, and it worked because

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Speaker 1: they had like a countdown timer. They planted a lot

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Speaker 1: of speculation items in other sort of gossip sites, Who's

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Speaker 1: it going to be? Who's it going to be? And

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Speaker 1: the reason that it's become so interesting is that the

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Speaker 1: way it works is that they can't just name someone.

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Speaker 1: The person they name has to agree to being given

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Speaker 1: the title because they have to sit down for an

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Speaker 1: interview and do a photo shoot, and be booked on

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Speaker 1: all the late night talk shows and whatever and give

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Speaker 1: interviews about it. Right. So there's that, and then there's

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Speaker 1: the fact that since there's been social media and all

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Speaker 1: of these other things, it's a bit embarrassing, like it

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Speaker 1: used to be something that would be really really good

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Speaker 1: for your career. The list of men who've done it

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Speaker 1: over the years, you know, it's a who's who. Ryan

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Speaker 1: Reynolds back in twenty ten, Bradley Cooper, Channing, Tatum, Adam Levine,

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Speaker 1: Chris Hemsworth, David Beckham, the.

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Speaker 2: Rock question, intervention question. Now it's that thing where you

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Speaker 2: have to cooperate, But I think it used to just

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Speaker 2: be they stuck your picture on the cover.

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Speaker 1: No, you've always had to do an interview. But back

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Speaker 1: in the day, pre social media, of course you'd sort

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Speaker 1: of do it. I think the world's just changed and

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Speaker 1: People magazine used to be kind of cool and now

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Speaker 1: it's not. Anyway. Twenty seventeen, when it was Blake Shelton.

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Speaker 3: That was a weird moment. I know who that was.

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Speaker 1: He was a country singer, a judge on American Idol,

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Speaker 1: married to Gwen Stefani.

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Speaker 2: That's his now were true, Yeah, just like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I know, the one with a hat. So far,

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Speaker 1: all the names I've listed, apart from the Rock have

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Speaker 1: been very, very white. But in Denzel twenty oh yes, sorry,

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Speaker 1: earlier it was Denzel twenty eighteen, idrisell Albert twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: John Legend twenty twenty, Michael B. Jordan. Then it started

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Speaker 1: getting really weird about twenty twenty one because for the

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Speaker 1: last few years they've sort of named people who were

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Speaker 1: a little outside what you would say the zeitgeist. Twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one.

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Speaker 3: Paul Rudd, I reckon that was bang.

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Speaker 1: On twenty twenty two, Chris Evans.

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Speaker 3: Also, I think it was bang On twenty.

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Speaker 1: Twenty three was mysterfying. It was Patrick Dempsey that was dister, yes,

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Speaker 1: and everyone was like, well, it was meant to be

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Speaker 1: Ryan Gosling because it was the year of Barbie, right.

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Speaker 4: I remember it was a writer's strike and so no

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Speaker 4: one could talk about any upcoming projects. Yeah, so they

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Speaker 4: had to just choose someone that was famous to him.

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Speaker 2: Has it ever been like a Chalo may No.

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Speaker 1: No. So some of the rumors and some of the

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Speaker 1: people that you would say is the zeitgeist at the moment,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Powell, No, We'll get to him in a second.

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Speaker 1: Pedro Pascal, he would have been a no.

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Speaker 2: He would have been my peak.

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Speaker 1: Travis Kelsey. I thought it was going to be Travis

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Speaker 1: Kelsey because he's thirsty for a title, and he would

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Speaker 1: have loved it and he would have got into the

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Speaker 1: spirit of it. Taylor, I think would have liked Paul

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Speaker 1: Meskeal a bit young for that audience. Same with Timothy Chalomey,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Bailey, star of Bridgeton Gay. That would have been

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Speaker 1: interest and interesting choice, but perhaps not right for that demographic. Now,

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Speaker 1: sometimes people come back for a repeat, and so there

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Speaker 1: was some speculation before the last few weeks events unfolded

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Speaker 1: that it might be Hugh Jackman again nearly single.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, Hugh Jackman, this is my Roman empire. At

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Speaker 4: the moment, I can't stop thinking about his alleged new girlfriend.

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Speaker 4: For you guys seen this news, Sutton Foster.

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Speaker 2: I keep calling a Suttin Forest because that's a place

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Speaker 2: in South Well. But that's not what she's called apparently.

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Speaker 3: No, Sutton Foster.

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Speaker 4: And I know her from younger because she was the

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Speaker 4: lead in that, But I didn't realize that she's a

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Speaker 4: very famous Broadway star Tony nominated, very very well regarded.

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Speaker 1: Been doing Broadway plays since she was like four years old.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and so in twenty twenty one she started work

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Speaker 4: on this play called The Music Man, opposite Hugh Jackman.

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Speaker 4: She'd been married for a decade to a Hollywood guy.

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Speaker 4: Hugh Jackman was with Debrale Fernesse at the.

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Speaker 1: Time, married almost thirty years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then of course he announced his divorce just

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Speaker 4: last year, and then one month ago, Sutton Foster announced

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Speaker 4: her split from her husband. And now there are all

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Speaker 4: these reports in US Weekly saying that they are one

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Speaker 4: hundred percent together, They're going to restaurants in New York.

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Speaker 4: They're doing their little walks around Central Park and everyone's

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Speaker 4: saying they are on. I'm interested because she's forty nine.

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Speaker 3: She's not twenty two.

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Speaker 1: He's about fifty six. Yeah. Yeah, So Deborlee was sixty eight.

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Speaker 1: So deborahlely copped so much over the time they were

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Speaker 1: together for the fact that she was older than him.

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Speaker 1: She didn't look like someone that you would assume the

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Speaker 1: hottest man in the world would be married to. She

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Speaker 1: gave up her own career as an actor pretty much

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Speaker 1: to support him over the last thirty years. She was

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Speaker 1: a phenomenal actor. They met actually when they were co

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Speaker 1: starring in something in Australia. But the reason that this

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Speaker 1: is kind of now jumped from pure gossip. It was

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Speaker 1: the cover of US Weekly last week that was very

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Speaker 1: well sourced. But there's a gossip columnist who did a

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Speaker 1: little reel about it saying that Hugh and Sutton were together,

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Speaker 1: and someone has forensically tracked that. Deborah Le's private account

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Speaker 1: liked it, and one of her friends left a comment saying,

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Speaker 1: you're on track with this one, and my beloved friend

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Speaker 1: Deborelee will be having her glow up very soon. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: Hugh Jackman out of contemial.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a bitchy thing say about your friend.

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Speaker 1: I know. But what's interesting is that this is kind

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Speaker 1: of media gossip. But what happened is that annually there

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Speaker 1: are very few of these sort of lists and things

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Speaker 1: that come out. But another famous one is Vanity Fairs

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Speaker 1: Hollywood Issue, where they have this sort of what's called

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Speaker 1: gatefold cover, which is one of the ones that fold

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Speaker 1: out and there are certain celebrities on the front, but

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Speaker 1: then there are sort of others.

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Speaker 2: I've still got them from the nineteen nineties, really iconic.

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Speaker 2: I've got the one that had the first ever time

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Speaker 2: I saw Gwyneth Paltrow, Leonardo DiCaprio, Claire Danes, We're all

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Speaker 2: on the Hollywood covers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so usually it's like a there's a few people

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Speaker 1: and they don't usually sit at the same time, you know.

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Speaker 1: Any Leibwitz will photograph them and then stitch it all

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Speaker 1: together and photoshop it all together. They're meant to come

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Speaker 1: out in February, but they came out on the same day.

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Speaker 1: A Sexiest Man Alive. Guess who's on the cover with

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Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman and Zendaya and Zoe Saldanaan Powell.

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Speaker 4: Well, they also had Dev Patel, who I think is

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Speaker 4: one of the hottest men in the world. I agreed,

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Speaker 4: Jonathan Bailey, he appeared on it.

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Speaker 2: Why would you want to do it?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because I get all this, I understand how magazines work.

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Speaker 2: But John Krasinski, I know that you're kind of making

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Speaker 2: him sound like a B lister.

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Speaker 1: He's not.

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Speaker 2: He's like unbelievably cool, best mates with George Clooney, gets

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Speaker 2: movies made, married to Emily Blunt.

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Speaker 1: Like, why would he want to be saying saying that

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Speaker 1: he's sexy or not sexy or whatever. But it was

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Speaker 1: more the zeitgeist of it.

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Speaker 2: But my point reason, why would he want to be that?

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Speaker 1: Well, how do you say that the des moi blind

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Speaker 1: item Dumi, which is now like literally the opposite of

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Speaker 1: People magazine. It's on Instagram and they publish unsourced, unverified rumors,

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Speaker 1: possibly untrue, many rumors, very few fans among publicists in Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: But they said that it's been well known for a

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Speaker 1: while that the title is available to purchase for several

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Speaker 1: million dollars and celebrities who need a boost to their

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Speaker 1: careers and to be seen as relevant again will outlay

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Speaker 1: several million dollars for the currency that AD buys them.

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Speaker 3: So I was thinking about this.

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Speaker 4: I reckon that One thing is that John MIKEA Becuzouski.

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Speaker 3: I reckon he gets mixed up with Ryan Reynolds.

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Speaker 4: And I think that this year, with the explosion of

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Speaker 4: the Blake Lively Ryan Reynolds thing, I think that there's

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Speaker 4: a bit of confusion because it's like tall guy, brown hair,

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Speaker 4: brown eyes, like they all kind of look the same.

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Speaker 3: That's the first thing.

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Speaker 4: The second thing is that he has a few projects

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Speaker 4: coming up, so they are developing a Jack Ryan feature

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Speaker 4: film starring him, and so he might be trying to

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Speaker 4: get a big currency.

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Speaker 2: And also that's like action movie, sexist man life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he's trying to become, like establish himself as a

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Speaker 4: heart throb.

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Speaker 1: He's relaunching. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And the other thing is he had a movie come

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Speaker 4: out this year, a kid's movie called If.

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Speaker 2: I watched that twice, it's a good well you know it.

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Speaker 3: Say it's not sexy, but on.

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Speaker 2: His part is very small. I think maybe Ryan Reynolds directly, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's and Ryan Reynolds are bestie, say.

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Speaker 3: What I mean, you get them mixed up.

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Speaker 4: The other thing I was thinking looking at this cover

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Speaker 4: is that back in nineteen eighty nine or whenever it started,

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Speaker 4: we were more earnest as a culture, and we weren't

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Speaker 4: icked by the vision of a man putting on a

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Speaker 4: smoldering gaze.

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Speaker 1: First, the look.

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Speaker 3: On John Krasinsky's face is so cringe.

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Speaker 4: I think it's because we are now in the age

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Speaker 4: of irony and cynicism. Everything's got to be tongue in

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Speaker 4: cheek and there is something not like so not tongue

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Speaker 4: in cheek about pulling a sexy face and having sexiest

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Speaker 4: man alive when we know you you agreed to it,

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Speaker 4: like imagine, and then you've got to go and sit

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Speaker 4: on all the talk shows or whatever, like you would

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Speaker 4: never want to be called it because then everyone gets

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Speaker 4: to debate it.

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Speaker 2: That's why I don't understand that you want to.

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Speaker 3: Be accidentally sexy.

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Speaker 4: You don't want to be like you don't want the title,

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Speaker 4: and there is nothing less sexy than trying to perform it.

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Speaker 2: Especially if you are a like his whole stick in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: It's funny because.

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Speaker 2: Funny guy, slightly sarky guy, slightly cynical guy. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: he's that he's one of the SNL kind of people.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So therefore, Jesse, that tracks with what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: because if you say that each of those guys are

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Speaker 1: of their time and what the world needs at that moment,

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Speaker 1: perhaps part of their choice is that he's a wife guy,

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Speaker 1: very much a wife guy. There's no scandal except for

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Speaker 1: when some lip readers last year at the Oscars thought

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Speaker 1: that he was on the red carpet with her saying

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to get a divorce. He was actually

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Speaker 1: saying I can't wait to get indoors because it was

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Speaker 1: cold on the red carpet.

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Speaker 2: People don't talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But I think that if you're suddenly put in the

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Speaker 1: realm of all these other people, because no one would

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Speaker 1: have mentioned him in the company of Chris Hemsworth, David Beckham,

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Speaker 1: The Rock, you know, John Legend, Idris Alba, all of

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Speaker 1: those people, Chris Evans, you wouldn't go like John Krasinski.

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Speaker 1: But now this literally does that. It puts him back

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Speaker 1: in the conversation. So I get what's in it for him.

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Speaker 1: I do, But I also see that you have to

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Speaker 1: be in a thirsty phase in your career where you

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Speaker 1: need it more than it needs you.

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Speaker 2: There's always just a script, right because as we know,

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Speaker 2: it's been going on for years. What used to happen

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Speaker 2: is they get a nice shot of you, they stick

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Speaker 2: it in that we are among twenty other people, like

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Speaker 2: it's the sexiest man issue, right, but you're the best.

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Speaker 2: Then they have to just say and they always say,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, my wife thought it was hilarious, and then

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Speaker 2: she said take the bins out, like that's what they

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Speaker 2: say every time, and it's just this boring script. The

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Speaker 2: thing I'm most interested in actually is not who it is,

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Speaker 2: but the way they've managed to bring it back into

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Speaker 2: the zeitgeist. Because all the young women here couldn't wait

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Speaker 2: to see who it was. They were talking about it,

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Speaker 2: taking bets on it, and when they came out, they

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Speaker 2: quite liked this pick because he is the you know,

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Speaker 2: funny wife guy and they like that. So I think

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Speaker 2: that's a very smart move. I just don't understand why

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Speaker 2: he'd do it. It's embarrassing question what kind of bear

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Speaker 2: is best?

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Speaker 1: It's a ridiculous question.

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Speaker 3: False like bear, that's debatable. Fact, bears eat beats, bears beats.

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Speaker 5: We do need change. This can't be the best that

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Speaker 5: we can do for our kids. Bullying today is very

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Speaker 5: different from when it was. When I was back in

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Speaker 5: the school yard, most of your problems were left at

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Speaker 5: the school gates, but it's different now. It follows kids

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Speaker 5: home when they've got a device in their hand to

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Speaker 5: committle lassing that they read before they go to bed

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Speaker 5: at night, the first thing that they read in the morning.

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Speaker 5: These online platforms were never designed for kids to use.

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Speaker 5: Some of the stories that we are aware of our

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Speaker 5: own experiences and stories have been shared by other parents

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Speaker 5: to ours. They are horrendous stories.

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Speaker 4: That was Matt O'Brien, the father of twelve year old

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Speaker 4: Charlotte O'Brien, who died by suicide in September of this year,

437
00:20:43,807 --> 00:20:47,967
Speaker 4: in a special documentary launched yesterday called Charlotte's Wish. The

438
00:20:48,007 --> 00:20:52,647
Speaker 4: Sunday Telegraph tracks for families whose daughters were bullied before

439
00:20:52,687 --> 00:20:56,047
Speaker 4: taking their own lives, and all are putting pressure on

440
00:20:56,087 --> 00:21:01,567
Speaker 4: schools to come up with more rigorous bullying policies and interventions. Specifically,

441
00:21:02,087 --> 00:21:05,807
Speaker 4: Charlotte's parents support the federal government raising the legal age

442
00:21:05,807 --> 00:21:09,447
Speaker 4: of using social media to sixteen. They also want a

443
00:21:09,487 --> 00:21:14,847
Speaker 4: standardized approach to bullying across all public, private and independent schools.

444
00:21:15,887 --> 00:21:20,327
Speaker 4: Matt O'Brien told nine News that he thinks parents need help.

445
00:21:20,447 --> 00:21:23,487
Speaker 4: I think teachers need help. I think principles need help.

446
00:21:23,847 --> 00:21:26,407
Speaker 4: It needs to be one set of rules for all kids,

447
00:21:26,487 --> 00:21:29,767
Speaker 4: irrespective of what school they go to. And now, for

448
00:21:29,847 --> 00:21:33,247
Speaker 4: the first time, private, public, and religious schools across New

449
00:21:33,287 --> 00:21:36,167
Speaker 4: South Wales will unite under a new state government plan

450
00:21:36,647 --> 00:21:40,207
Speaker 4: to develop one anti bullying policy, which the Deputy Premier

451
00:21:40,367 --> 00:21:44,487
Speaker 4: says will be a priority moving into the new year. Holly,

452
00:21:44,647 --> 00:21:47,087
Speaker 4: is it just me or did you not know that

453
00:21:47,127 --> 00:21:50,327
Speaker 4: we didn't already have a standardized policy for bullying.

454
00:21:50,727 --> 00:21:53,487
Speaker 2: I didn't think we had a standardized policy for bullying

455
00:21:53,487 --> 00:21:56,247
Speaker 2: because I know that, you know, parents of kids at

456
00:21:56,407 --> 00:21:59,927
Speaker 2: primary schools and high schools will always talk about whatever

457
00:22:00,047 --> 00:22:02,367
Speaker 2: kind of school that kids go to, this school's really

458
00:22:02,407 --> 00:22:04,887
Speaker 2: good on bullying, that school's no good on bullying, like

459
00:22:04,927 --> 00:22:08,847
Speaker 2: it's such a big issue. So I wasn't surprised to

460
00:22:08,927 --> 00:22:11,007
Speaker 2: know we did have that. But when I went to look,

461
00:22:11,047 --> 00:22:12,967
Speaker 2: and this is obviously it varies from state to state,

462
00:22:13,287 --> 00:22:15,487
Speaker 2: but when I went to look at the existing policy

463
00:22:15,647 --> 00:22:18,887
Speaker 2: for New South Wales today, it is very much there

464
00:22:18,967 --> 00:22:21,567
Speaker 2: is no tolerance every school should have a strategy in place,

465
00:22:21,607 --> 00:22:24,287
Speaker 2: but there is no actual suggestion of what that strategy

466
00:22:24,287 --> 00:22:27,127
Speaker 2: should be. Having said that, I've had kids going through

467
00:22:27,127 --> 00:22:29,767
Speaker 2: the public school system more than ten years now, bullying

468
00:22:29,887 --> 00:22:33,847
Speaker 2: is talked about constantly. There is so much more awareness

469
00:22:34,367 --> 00:22:37,327
Speaker 2: about bullying, about kindness, about all those things, and there

470
00:22:37,407 --> 00:22:39,567
Speaker 2: certainly was when I was at school, for example, which

471
00:22:39,567 --> 00:22:41,527
Speaker 2: obviously was a very long time ago. So there's a

472
00:22:41,527 --> 00:22:44,887
Speaker 2: lot of discussion about it. But the tricky part here,

473
00:22:44,927 --> 00:22:48,167
Speaker 2: and the part that's really interesting to unpick, is as

474
00:22:48,207 --> 00:22:51,607
Speaker 2: it relates to phones, because where does the school's jurisdiction

475
00:22:51,687 --> 00:22:54,007
Speaker 2: stop and start. Anyone who has a tween or a

476
00:22:54,047 --> 00:22:57,207
Speaker 2: teen knows a lot about the tyranny of group chats,

477
00:22:57,247 --> 00:22:59,407
Speaker 2: and one of the things that happened to Charlotte, as

478
00:22:59,407 --> 00:23:03,247
Speaker 2: I understand it, is that she was targeted in group

479
00:23:03,327 --> 00:23:07,807
Speaker 2: chats by schoolmates who called her names in those group chats,

480
00:23:07,807 --> 00:23:10,527
Speaker 2: who persecuted her, who started group chats that excluded her.

481
00:23:10,967 --> 00:23:13,487
Speaker 2: That is almost and I hate to say this, and

482
00:23:13,487 --> 00:23:15,927
Speaker 2: I'm sure there be people listening saying that is almost

483
00:23:15,967 --> 00:23:18,687
Speaker 2: standard now, Like I don't know any tweens or teens

484
00:23:18,687 --> 00:23:21,447
Speaker 2: who haven't had dramas with group chats, and they might

485
00:23:21,527 --> 00:23:24,847
Speaker 2: be on different platforms, so they might be on Snapchat,

486
00:23:24,847 --> 00:23:27,327
Speaker 2: they might be on Messenger, they might be on Whatsapple

487
00:23:27,407 --> 00:23:30,127
Speaker 2: though kids that I know don't use that, and so

488
00:23:30,647 --> 00:23:33,367
Speaker 2: they're in a lot of different places. And the social

489
00:23:33,447 --> 00:23:37,087
Speaker 2: media ban as it's proposed, is aimed at that right

490
00:23:37,127 --> 00:23:39,167
Speaker 2: to try and keep the kids off those platforms for

491
00:23:39,207 --> 00:23:42,367
Speaker 2: as long as they can, which seems on the surface

492
00:23:42,407 --> 00:23:44,007
Speaker 2: of it to be a very good idea. This isn't

493
00:23:44,007 --> 00:23:46,887
Speaker 2: something that's only being talked about in Australia. Everyone in

494
00:23:46,887 --> 00:23:48,927
Speaker 2: the world is looking at Australia to see if we're

495
00:23:48,967 --> 00:23:51,687
Speaker 2: really going to push that button about social media bands.

496
00:23:52,447 --> 00:23:55,247
Speaker 2: But then there are mental health experts who don't believe

497
00:23:55,287 --> 00:23:58,607
Speaker 2: that is the solution for teenagers because they say the

498
00:23:58,727 --> 00:24:01,607
Speaker 2: vulnerable teens get a lot of help and assistance on

499
00:24:01,647 --> 00:24:05,487
Speaker 2: social media platforms and that often that's where they get help.

500
00:24:05,967 --> 00:24:08,887
Speaker 2: And you know, there are lots of sort of organizations

501
00:24:08,967 --> 00:24:12,527
Speaker 2: like Lifeline and Beyond Blue and Headspace and the Butterfly Foundation.

502
00:24:12,927 --> 00:24:16,927
Speaker 2: They have very savvy social media outreach now and even

503
00:24:16,967 --> 00:24:19,007
Speaker 2: bots that you can ask help of and all those things,

504
00:24:19,047 --> 00:24:22,567
Speaker 2: and they're saying getting kids off those platforms isn't necessarily

505
00:24:22,647 --> 00:24:25,487
Speaker 2: the answer. Maybe the answer rather is to make those

506
00:24:25,527 --> 00:24:27,687
Speaker 2: places safer. So it's like the idea of do you

507
00:24:27,687 --> 00:24:29,367
Speaker 2: get rid of backyard pools or do you build a

508
00:24:29,407 --> 00:24:30,527
Speaker 2: fence around the back I.

509
00:24:30,447 --> 00:24:34,207
Speaker 1: Think that's, you know, with respect to those organizations, I

510
00:24:34,247 --> 00:24:37,367
Speaker 1: think that that reveals a real naivity about how the

511
00:24:37,367 --> 00:24:43,127
Speaker 1: algorithm works, because what social does and oh, listening to

512
00:24:43,807 --> 00:24:47,367
Speaker 1: Charlotte's father, I mean the pain in the man's voice,

513
00:24:47,447 --> 00:24:50,127
Speaker 1: you can just hear it. I'll disagree with one thing

514
00:24:50,167 --> 00:24:54,407
Speaker 1: that he says, which is these platforms weren't designed for kids.

515
00:24:54,447 --> 00:24:56,967
Speaker 1: It's worse than that. They were designed to addict children,

516
00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:01,087
Speaker 1: and they are designed to keep children there for as

517
00:25:01,127 --> 00:25:04,487
Speaker 1: long as possible. And so it's been shown in like

518
00:25:04,607 --> 00:25:08,047
Speaker 1: documents at Meta that these algorithms, and we know that

519
00:25:08,087 --> 00:25:11,367
Speaker 1: TikTok works in the same way. If you're interested in something,

520
00:25:11,367 --> 00:25:15,007
Speaker 1: if you watch a video about depression or anorexia, that

521
00:25:15,127 --> 00:25:18,087
Speaker 1: algorithm will serve you more and more and more and

522
00:25:18,167 --> 00:25:21,287
Speaker 1: more content about that and more extreme content about that topic.

523
00:25:22,047 --> 00:25:26,847
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe the support foundations who are honestly trying

524
00:25:27,127 --> 00:25:31,207
Speaker 1: against the greatest odds to help these people, maybe they

525
00:25:31,247 --> 00:25:34,607
Speaker 1: will be available on these social media platforms, but they'n

526
00:25:34,687 --> 00:25:38,607
Speaker 1: no match for the algorithm that will absolutely saturate these kids.

527
00:25:38,647 --> 00:25:41,727
Speaker 2: I also think about like snapstreaks, for example, so Snapchat

528
00:25:41,847 --> 00:25:45,047
Speaker 2: has all its own incentives to keep you talking on

529
00:25:45,087 --> 00:25:48,047
Speaker 2: that platform all the time, so it's designed to exactly

530
00:25:48,127 --> 00:25:51,087
Speaker 2: so it's very much designed for children.

531
00:25:51,367 --> 00:25:54,247
Speaker 1: What I thought was interesting today also I read that

532
00:25:54,287 --> 00:25:57,927
Speaker 1: there's a school in Sydney, a private school. It's a girls' school,

533
00:25:58,167 --> 00:26:02,327
Speaker 1: and they did some research into their school community that

534
00:26:02,447 --> 00:26:05,847
Speaker 1: showed a lot of children spend between four and seven

535
00:26:05,887 --> 00:26:08,407
Speaker 1: hours a day on their smartphones and almost fifty percent

536
00:26:08,407 --> 00:26:12,727
Speaker 1: of parents say a smart phone had changed their child's personality. Wow.

537
00:26:12,767 --> 00:26:17,087
Speaker 1: And next year they've decided to introduce something called wise phones,

538
00:26:17,207 --> 00:26:19,407
Speaker 1: where the school is going to actually provide all the

539
00:26:19,447 --> 00:26:22,127
Speaker 1: students in the school from year four to year ten.

540
00:26:22,207 --> 00:26:25,007
Speaker 1: I think with restricted use phones that are tailored to

541
00:26:25,047 --> 00:26:27,807
Speaker 1: their age groups. So for example, the phones that the

542
00:26:27,887 --> 00:26:30,967
Speaker 1: year four to five students get will only be able

543
00:26:31,007 --> 00:26:33,967
Speaker 1: to make calls and send texts. In years five to

544
00:26:34,087 --> 00:26:36,887
Speaker 1: seven they can add a camera as well as payment

545
00:26:36,927 --> 00:26:39,567
Speaker 1: and learning apps, and then in years eight and nine

546
00:26:39,727 --> 00:26:42,847
Speaker 1: they can access chat groups, Spotify and Bluetooth, and the

547
00:26:42,887 --> 00:26:47,727
Speaker 1: restrictions end in year ten. And something that I thought

548
00:26:47,887 --> 00:26:51,167
Speaker 1: was really interesting about this is the principle said she

549
00:26:51,247 --> 00:26:53,687
Speaker 1: compared it to learning to swim, you know, using phones,

550
00:26:53,687 --> 00:26:55,327
Speaker 1: and she said, we don't help kids into a pull

551
00:26:55,367 --> 00:26:59,247
Speaker 1: straight away. We skilled them up over time. And she

552
00:26:59,327 --> 00:27:01,647
Speaker 1: also said that she came up with this idea after

553
00:27:01,687 --> 00:27:03,807
Speaker 1: talking to girls. It's not come from parents, it's come

554
00:27:03,847 --> 00:27:06,327
Speaker 1: from girls. And year nine, girls were saying they wish

555
00:27:06,567 --> 00:27:08,927
Speaker 1: that they didn't have phones and that social media and

556
00:27:08,967 --> 00:27:12,327
Speaker 1: phones had impacted And one thing that I thought was

557
00:27:12,367 --> 00:27:14,607
Speaker 1: so interesting in this article, it just spoke to me.

558
00:27:14,687 --> 00:27:17,967
Speaker 1: It said, parents who are balancing their reluctance to put

559
00:27:18,047 --> 00:27:20,607
Speaker 1: access to the depths of the internet in a student's

560
00:27:20,647 --> 00:27:24,047
Speaker 1: pocket from age twelve with the reality that everyone else

561
00:27:24,127 --> 00:27:28,167
Speaker 1: does have embraced this particular proposal because that's the thing, right, Yeah.

562
00:27:28,207 --> 00:27:32,647
Speaker 4: But then another criticism of the social media ban is

563
00:27:32,687 --> 00:27:36,007
Speaker 4: that they say kids will find ways around it, Like

564
00:27:36,167 --> 00:27:38,647
Speaker 4: you know, you ban your kid from their saul or whatever,

565
00:27:38,847 --> 00:27:41,367
Speaker 4: you know, they'll find a way around it. And when

566
00:27:41,407 --> 00:27:44,407
Speaker 4: they do, will they not tell any adults because they

567
00:27:44,447 --> 00:27:46,767
Speaker 4: know they shouldn't be on it? Like is that going

568
00:27:46,807 --> 00:27:49,047
Speaker 4: to then prevent them from talking to their parents because,

569
00:27:49,087 --> 00:27:51,207
Speaker 4: in fact, Matt O'Brien I was on the desk last

570
00:27:51,287 --> 00:27:54,087
Speaker 4: night with Matt O'Brien when he came into the project

571
00:27:54,087 --> 00:27:58,327
Speaker 4: to talk about what happened, and his advice to parents

572
00:27:58,767 --> 00:28:02,767
Speaker 4: was to try and keep the lines of communication really open,

573
00:28:02,807 --> 00:28:04,487
Speaker 4: and no matter what it is, and no matter what

574
00:28:04,527 --> 00:28:06,367
Speaker 4: you've done, and no matter if you're on an app

575
00:28:06,407 --> 00:28:08,567
Speaker 4: that you shouldn't be on, you have to tell us

576
00:28:08,607 --> 00:28:11,927
Speaker 4: what's going on because it's so secretive as.

577
00:28:11,807 --> 00:28:14,447
Speaker 2: Opposed I mean, most parents. I know that's your line

578
00:28:14,527 --> 00:28:16,607
Speaker 2: with the kids, right you say, I would rather you

579
00:28:16,647 --> 00:28:18,967
Speaker 2: didn't do blah blah blah. I don't want you talking

580
00:28:18,967 --> 00:28:20,927
Speaker 2: to strangers on the internet. I don't want you doing

581
00:28:20,967 --> 00:28:24,047
Speaker 2: this this this, But if you do, tell me all

582
00:28:24,047 --> 00:28:27,127
Speaker 2: about it. And the thing is is that parents are powerless.

583
00:28:27,167 --> 00:28:28,967
Speaker 2: This is the problem with this is that what you

584
00:28:29,007 --> 00:28:31,087
Speaker 2: were just saying, then me are about this thing. We

585
00:28:31,127 --> 00:28:33,527
Speaker 2: are battling about the idea of whether or not to

586
00:28:33,647 --> 00:28:36,887
Speaker 2: hand this potentially very dangerous thing to them or whether

587
00:28:36,967 --> 00:28:40,327
Speaker 2: not to It's also when you do you've kind of

588
00:28:40,367 --> 00:28:42,527
Speaker 2: got this picture in your head of well, I won't

589
00:28:42,607 --> 00:28:44,007
Speaker 2: let my kids do this, and I won't let them

590
00:28:44,047 --> 00:28:46,607
Speaker 2: do that, and I'll put this software on it, I'll

591
00:28:46,647 --> 00:28:49,247
Speaker 2: have this password on it. But the thing is is

592
00:28:49,287 --> 00:28:52,967
Speaker 2: that we also know that they're smart, often very much

593
00:28:53,007 --> 00:28:55,367
Speaker 2: smarter than we are technologically about how to get around

594
00:28:55,407 --> 00:28:57,527
Speaker 2: all that stuff. And for all the reasons that you

595
00:28:57,647 --> 00:28:59,727
Speaker 2: just spelled out, we know that we will never enforce

596
00:28:59,767 --> 00:29:01,727
Speaker 2: any of those rules because what we really want is

597
00:29:01,767 --> 00:29:04,727
Speaker 2: to keep our kids alive, and so we're kind of

598
00:29:05,007 --> 00:29:06,527
Speaker 2: toothless and conflicting.

599
00:29:06,727 --> 00:29:11,207
Speaker 4: It's just so much conflicting advice. And one of the

600
00:29:11,247 --> 00:29:14,887
Speaker 4: most heartbreaking details I heard was Charlotte's mother speaking to

601
00:29:14,927 --> 00:29:17,167
Speaker 4: a police officer, and the thing in the aftermath that

602
00:29:17,207 --> 00:29:20,847
Speaker 4: she kept repeating was how, like how did she do this?

603
00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:23,647
Speaker 4: And the police officer said, we're living in the age

604
00:29:23,687 --> 00:29:26,567
Speaker 4: of information. All she had to do was Google in

605
00:29:26,687 --> 00:29:31,807
Speaker 4: terms of the means and the information. That's what's different, right,

606
00:29:31,967 --> 00:29:36,007
Speaker 4: It's like even Google didn't exist when I was Charlotte's age.

607
00:29:36,207 --> 00:29:38,607
Speaker 4: But the other thing I feel like is maybe missing

608
00:29:38,607 --> 00:29:41,767
Speaker 4: from this conversation, and I'm not sure how we do it.

609
00:29:41,847 --> 00:29:44,887
Speaker 4: But we're talking to parents. I don't think this is

610
00:29:44,927 --> 00:29:47,167
Speaker 4: on parents. We're talking to teachers. I don't think this

611
00:29:47,207 --> 00:29:48,927
Speaker 4: is totally on teachers, like I think that there are

612
00:29:48,967 --> 00:29:52,207
Speaker 4: a lot of people doing their best. How about the bullies,

613
00:29:52,607 --> 00:29:54,927
Speaker 4: like I keep thinking as well, imagine if you're one

614
00:29:54,927 --> 00:29:57,167
Speaker 4: of those kids that sent those messages, because Matt O'Brien

615
00:29:57,367 --> 00:30:01,007
Speaker 4: said that he has read those last messages and they

616
00:30:01,007 --> 00:30:02,807
Speaker 4: are the worst things you could say to someone, and

617
00:30:02,847 --> 00:30:04,927
Speaker 4: they now exist. Those kids have to live with what

618
00:30:04,967 --> 00:30:07,887
Speaker 4: they said. But girls in particular, I can speak to

619
00:30:07,927 --> 00:30:09,767
Speaker 4: girls because I went to a girls high schoo the

620
00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:15,247
Speaker 4: insidious ways that bullying can occur, the clever ways that

621
00:30:15,447 --> 00:30:18,207
Speaker 4: they do it, and ways in which if you told

622
00:30:18,247 --> 00:30:19,447
Speaker 4: a teacher you might.

623
00:30:19,367 --> 00:30:21,407
Speaker 3: Sound crazy, like I remember going.

624
00:30:21,807 --> 00:30:23,527
Speaker 4: I might have told this story before, But I went

625
00:30:23,567 --> 00:30:25,567
Speaker 4: to the move invited to the movies by my friends,

626
00:30:25,607 --> 00:30:27,607
Speaker 4: and I turned up and they all ran and hid,

627
00:30:28,087 --> 00:30:30,407
Speaker 4: and I was left at this you know, shopping center

628
00:30:30,807 --> 00:30:32,847
Speaker 4: that's not really on the teachers, that's on the weekend.

629
00:30:33,007 --> 00:30:35,927
Speaker 4: And then they say that it's a joke. And now

630
00:30:36,007 --> 00:30:39,847
Speaker 4: you're being pursued in the privacy of your own bedroom,

631
00:30:39,967 --> 00:30:43,647
Speaker 4: and it's constant. And I just know that there are

632
00:30:43,687 --> 00:30:46,407
Speaker 4: a lot of teachers that I'm speaking to who are

633
00:30:46,447 --> 00:30:51,367
Speaker 4: trying to monitor this, and they're saying it disappears, you've

634
00:30:51,367 --> 00:30:53,847
Speaker 4: got parents who are jumping on and getting involved.

635
00:30:53,967 --> 00:30:56,887
Speaker 1: Parents getting involved. I think another reason that kids are

636
00:30:56,887 --> 00:30:59,487
Speaker 1: often too scared to tell their parents that they're being

637
00:30:59,567 --> 00:31:02,287
Speaker 1: bullied is the fear that their parents will take the

638
00:31:02,327 --> 00:31:04,647
Speaker 1: phone away. And I understand that instinct because it's what

639
00:31:04,727 --> 00:31:07,647
Speaker 1: I would want to do too, But the fear of

640
00:31:07,687 --> 00:31:10,527
Speaker 1: that stops them from even speaking up. Yeah, because the

641
00:31:10,567 --> 00:31:12,847
Speaker 1: idea that's like taking their lifeline.

642
00:31:12,847 --> 00:31:13,687
Speaker 3: Well, we all have an addiction.

643
00:31:13,687 --> 00:31:16,567
Speaker 4: Imagine if someone took out phone away, it's like it's everything,

644
00:31:16,607 --> 00:31:18,887
Speaker 4: and then you feel punished for being on the receiving

645
00:31:19,007 --> 00:31:20,687
Speaker 4: end of it, but also.

646
00:31:20,527 --> 00:31:23,447
Speaker 2: You know it's For nearly ten years, I've worked now

647
00:31:23,447 --> 00:31:26,607
Speaker 2: on digital media, obviously, and I've interviewed a million experts

648
00:31:26,607 --> 00:31:28,367
Speaker 2: on this. When I used to host This Glorious Mess,

649
00:31:28,407 --> 00:31:30,087
Speaker 2: which was a parenting show. When we did the Teen

650
00:31:30,167 --> 00:31:33,807
Speaker 2: Summit here just the year before last, I spoke to

651
00:31:34,447 --> 00:31:36,367
Speaker 2: Mat Corana, who did try and take his own life

652
00:31:36,407 --> 00:31:39,127
Speaker 2: when he was seventeen that left him with lifelong injuries

653
00:31:39,127 --> 00:31:41,767
Speaker 2: and he is now a full time advocate about this.

654
00:31:42,127 --> 00:31:44,927
Speaker 2: I've interviewed people who are experts in all these fields,

655
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:48,207
Speaker 2: and they tell parents all these lists of this is

656
00:31:48,207 --> 00:31:50,367
Speaker 2: what you should do when you give your child a phone,

657
00:31:50,767 --> 00:31:53,167
Speaker 2: and whether it's check or don't check, whether it's trust,

658
00:31:53,167 --> 00:31:55,247
Speaker 2: whether it's don't trust, whether it's don't give them a

659
00:31:55,247 --> 00:31:57,487
Speaker 2: phone at all, or whether it's you know. Because the

660
00:31:57,527 --> 00:31:59,927
Speaker 2: other thing is is that kids, especially in these group

661
00:31:59,967 --> 00:32:02,567
Speaker 2: chats and things, they're all talking to each other as

662
00:32:02,607 --> 00:32:04,727
Speaker 2: if there are no imagine a group of children with

663
00:32:04,807 --> 00:32:07,247
Speaker 2: no adults in the room, just going for it. Not

664
00:32:07,407 --> 00:32:09,847
Speaker 2: all of the children in there are going to be

665
00:32:10,927 --> 00:32:13,407
Speaker 2: saying lovely things to each other all the time, right,

666
00:32:13,447 --> 00:32:15,487
Speaker 2: They're going to say things that they wouldn't want their

667
00:32:15,527 --> 00:32:17,647
Speaker 2: mom to see them say because they know that it

668
00:32:17,687 --> 00:32:21,127
Speaker 2: would be rude or mean, But they don't necessarily know

669
00:32:21,167 --> 00:32:23,127
Speaker 2: the impact. I know that's not necessarily the case in

670
00:32:23,167 --> 00:32:27,007
Speaker 2: some of these horrific stories. Is very deliberate and very

671
00:32:27,047 --> 00:32:32,447
Speaker 2: direct wording. But it's this massive soup, and even with

672
00:32:32,527 --> 00:32:35,607
Speaker 2: all the information that I have learned over the years,

673
00:32:35,967 --> 00:32:38,647
Speaker 2: I still feel completely helpless about it when it comes

674
00:32:38,687 --> 00:32:41,367
Speaker 2: to what's the best way to handle it with my kids.

675
00:32:41,407 --> 00:32:43,487
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of discussion around the social media

676
00:32:43,527 --> 00:32:45,847
Speaker 2: ban about people being more parents just need to step up,

677
00:32:45,967 --> 00:32:48,167
Speaker 2: or teachers as you've said parents just need to step up.

678
00:32:48,207 --> 00:32:49,607
Speaker 2: Whoever said you had to give them a phone in

679
00:32:49,607 --> 00:32:52,607
Speaker 2: the first place, And everyone's pointing their fingers. We are

680
00:32:52,607 --> 00:32:56,687
Speaker 2: in uncharted waders. We are in completely uncharted waters, which

681
00:32:56,687 --> 00:32:59,887
Speaker 2: is why I do ultimately think that the responsibility ends

682
00:32:59,927 --> 00:33:03,847
Speaker 2: up back with the tech platforms who are not policing

683
00:33:04,007 --> 00:33:08,407
Speaker 2: or gatekeeping or removing dangerous information anything like the speed

684
00:33:08,447 --> 00:33:11,687
Speaker 2: that we know that could if they wanted to. That

685
00:33:11,847 --> 00:33:13,607
Speaker 2: really has to be where you go back to pointing

686
00:33:13,607 --> 00:33:13,967
Speaker 2: the finger.

687
00:33:14,007 --> 00:33:15,567
Speaker 3: But then I think it's multi pronged, right.

688
00:33:15,607 --> 00:33:18,727
Speaker 4: It's that it's social media ban if that's what the

689
00:33:18,767 --> 00:33:21,647
Speaker 4: experts say we should do, it's bullying in schools. I

690
00:33:21,687 --> 00:33:24,727
Speaker 4: just think it's very heartening to see that change has

691
00:33:24,727 --> 00:33:27,127
Speaker 4: happened and that Albernizi has been able to look Charlotte's

692
00:33:27,127 --> 00:33:29,967
Speaker 4: parents in the eye and say we're doing something and

693
00:33:30,447 --> 00:33:32,767
Speaker 4: this stuff is all world leading, as it should be.

694
00:33:33,127 --> 00:33:36,247
Speaker 4: If this segment has brought up anything for you, there

695
00:33:36,287 --> 00:33:39,007
Speaker 4: are links to support services in the show notes.

696
00:33:41,727 --> 00:33:44,447
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mum

697
00:33:44,527 --> 00:33:46,327
Speaker 1: and Me Are Out Loud. Just for Mum and Me

698
00:33:46,407 --> 00:33:48,927
Speaker 1: A subscribers follow the link in the show notes to

699
00:33:48,927 --> 00:33:51,287
Speaker 1: get your daily dose of out Loud, and a big

700
00:33:51,327 --> 00:33:53,927
Speaker 1: thank you to everyone who is already subscribed.

701
00:34:02,767 --> 00:34:06,127
Speaker 4: I have feedback for the Boss of Tuna and similarly

702
00:34:06,207 --> 00:34:08,007
Speaker 4: for the Boss of chocolate.

703
00:34:07,727 --> 00:34:08,727
Speaker 1: Because feedback is a gift.

704
00:34:08,767 --> 00:34:09,247
Speaker 3: It is a gift.

705
00:34:10,087 --> 00:34:12,967
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for the feedback. Great, I'd love your feedback.

706
00:34:13,607 --> 00:34:18,087
Speaker 3: What we need to turn it down on the varieties.

707
00:34:18,407 --> 00:34:20,647
Speaker 4: I went the other day to buy a can of

708
00:34:20,847 --> 00:34:24,287
Speaker 4: just playing tuna in my local supermarket, and I felt

709
00:34:24,487 --> 00:34:27,367
Speaker 4: like I was being pranked. Do you want chili oil,

710
00:34:28,007 --> 00:34:33,447
Speaker 4: spring water, soy and ginger, lemon and pepper, garlic, basil, mint, chicken, honey, ham, fritten, nuts,

711
00:34:33,527 --> 00:34:36,487
Speaker 4: vanilla and cookie. That's when I started getting silly, Maya,

712
00:34:36,647 --> 00:34:40,407
Speaker 4: because that's where they are becoming very silly. Okay, we

713
00:34:40,487 --> 00:34:43,767
Speaker 4: just want our plane tuna. It is well, it is

714
00:34:43,807 --> 00:34:46,167
Speaker 4: the same with chocolate, right, I just want my dairy milk.

715
00:34:46,287 --> 00:34:48,487
Speaker 4: I just want my plain dairy milk. No, do you

716
00:34:48,487 --> 00:34:50,647
Speaker 4: want mandarin in it? And I don't want mandarin in it?

717
00:34:50,767 --> 00:34:52,087
Speaker 4: Do you want some turkey in it?

718
00:34:52,127 --> 00:34:53,447
Speaker 2: No? Do you want tuna?

719
00:34:53,487 --> 00:34:54,807
Speaker 3: Chocolate? Well it might as well.

720
00:34:55,367 --> 00:34:58,447
Speaker 1: Do you know I blame pads. That's where it started,

721
00:34:58,487 --> 00:35:02,687
Speaker 1: all right, A hyper fragmentation and diversification. Like you know,

722
00:35:02,807 --> 00:35:04,567
Speaker 1: remember when you could just go and you'd buy pads

723
00:35:05,007 --> 00:35:06,327
Speaker 1: or you'd buy tampons.

724
00:35:05,927 --> 00:35:07,007
Speaker 2: That was your choice. Pad.

725
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:09,167
Speaker 3: It's like how heavy? How BIG's you?

726
00:35:09,247 --> 00:35:12,687
Speaker 1: And then it started with wings yep, and then.

727
00:35:12,727 --> 00:35:14,167
Speaker 3: It's like absorbancy.

728
00:35:14,207 --> 00:35:15,167
Speaker 2: Would you like a tail?

729
00:35:15,447 --> 00:35:16,727
Speaker 1: Would you like some wings?

730
00:35:16,807 --> 00:35:17,847
Speaker 3: Would you like wheels?

731
00:35:18,127 --> 00:35:20,007
Speaker 4: Would you like just a liner for a little leak?

732
00:35:20,327 --> 00:35:23,287
Speaker 4: Is it maternity coming from you want a nappy? Do

733
00:35:23,327 --> 00:35:24,527
Speaker 4: you want a full nappy?

734
00:35:24,647 --> 00:35:24,847
Speaker 1: Yeah?

735
00:35:24,967 --> 00:35:26,767
Speaker 2: I don't know how many times today I'm gonna have

736
00:35:26,767 --> 00:35:28,687
Speaker 2: to point out to you how much classic isn't you bitches?

737
00:35:30,607 --> 00:35:34,367
Speaker 2: But different tunas for different occasions, Guys, there is nothing

738
00:35:34,447 --> 00:35:36,447
Speaker 2: nicer in a pasta sauce than a jar of chili,

739
00:35:36,487 --> 00:35:38,527
Speaker 2: tuna and oil. All you need to do is whack

740
00:35:38,527 --> 00:35:39,967
Speaker 2: that in a bit of tomato sauce. You have a

741
00:35:40,007 --> 00:35:42,527
Speaker 2: delicious dinner. You want the one with lemon to go

742
00:35:42,607 --> 00:35:45,087
Speaker 2: in your salad. You want spring water, not oil, because

743
00:35:45,087 --> 00:35:47,767
Speaker 2: it's not as heavy. I have a different tuna for

744
00:35:47,887 --> 00:35:52,447
Speaker 2: every different need. Does that need to be a I don't,

745
00:35:52,487 --> 00:35:54,247
Speaker 2: but I could see why it would make you boring

746
00:35:54,287 --> 00:35:56,927
Speaker 2: ours salad at lunchtime a bit sexier so ginger.

747
00:35:57,647 --> 00:36:02,607
Speaker 4: You know what's happening shopping without the glass, Chicken of

748
00:36:02,647 --> 00:36:02,927
Speaker 4: the Sea.

749
00:36:03,047 --> 00:36:04,807
Speaker 2: It's true. I have picked up the wrong one time.

750
00:36:04,927 --> 00:36:05,927
Speaker 2: I bet that makes me say.

751
00:36:05,927 --> 00:36:07,687
Speaker 4: I've done it with my chocolate, and I've gone home

752
00:36:07,727 --> 00:36:10,127
Speaker 4: and gone I didn't want this, didn't want my orange,

753
00:36:10,327 --> 00:36:12,127
Speaker 4: just orange or something, and I went, well, it's ruin

754
00:36:12,167 --> 00:36:15,247
Speaker 4: the whole bar. And now I've given the supermarket the

755
00:36:15,247 --> 00:36:18,287
Speaker 4: impression that I wanted this. I have become a statistic

756
00:36:18,367 --> 00:36:22,607
Speaker 4: Did you complicit in it? I've wanted this flawed system.

757
00:36:22,367 --> 00:36:23,207
Speaker 1: Could have taken it back?

758
00:36:23,487 --> 00:36:25,327
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't I ate it, but I wasn't happy

759
00:36:25,327 --> 00:36:25,807
Speaker 3: about it.

760
00:36:25,847 --> 00:36:26,287
Speaker 2: Feedback.

761
00:36:26,287 --> 00:36:27,167
Speaker 1: That's why it's a gift.

762
00:36:28,567 --> 00:36:31,847
Speaker 2: Bridget. You're a widow with two wonderful children. My advice

763
00:36:31,887 --> 00:36:34,487
Speaker 2: to you is put your own orxygen mask on first.

764
00:36:35,087 --> 00:36:37,807
Speaker 2: You just have to get late shouts right.

765
00:36:37,887 --> 00:36:40,647
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's been four years now.

766
00:36:40,607 --> 00:36:44,287
Speaker 1: You're affectively a nun who I've.

767
00:36:44,167 --> 00:36:48,247
Speaker 2: Set you up on Tinder? What tender Bridget Jones is

768
00:36:48,247 --> 00:36:50,687
Speaker 2: sleeping with that hot English backpacker from the White Lotus.

769
00:36:50,847 --> 00:36:51,807
Speaker 3: I did think it was hot.

770
00:36:52,087 --> 00:36:54,407
Speaker 1: There's a lot of words in that sentence.

771
00:36:55,367 --> 00:36:58,687
Speaker 2: The trailer for the New Bridget Jones reboot is out,

772
00:36:58,807 --> 00:37:03,367
Speaker 2: and surprise, surprise, Bridget is now a horny midlife woman

773
00:37:03,807 --> 00:37:06,087
Speaker 2: the new movie. I don't think I need to explain

774
00:37:06,087 --> 00:37:07,767
Speaker 2: Bridget Jones to you all, but me is looking at

775
00:37:07,767 --> 00:37:09,647
Speaker 2: me in a way that suggests that I do know.

776
00:37:09,967 --> 00:37:14,127
Speaker 1: I'm just from the night. No, I was actually thinking,

777
00:37:14,447 --> 00:37:17,287
Speaker 1: it's so funny. I'm just got resting bitch face. But

778
00:37:17,847 --> 00:37:20,247
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, are we going to have to

779
00:37:20,287 --> 00:37:24,887
Speaker 1: have the debate again culturally about Renese Elwegger's weight. No,

780
00:37:25,087 --> 00:37:26,767
Speaker 1: let's not even I can't stand it.

781
00:37:27,567 --> 00:37:30,407
Speaker 4: I was thinking, when you said horny midlife woman, I thought,

782
00:37:30,647 --> 00:37:32,447
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think of an example of a midlife

783
00:37:32,447 --> 00:37:34,687
Speaker 4: woman who is not horny.

784
00:37:34,447 --> 00:37:36,407
Speaker 3: In any any art in the last round.

785
00:37:36,487 --> 00:37:39,327
Speaker 1: Also, big pants. We all wear them. It's not an

786
00:37:39,327 --> 00:37:42,647
Speaker 1: embarrassing thing now everybody wears them. They're cool, even on

787
00:37:42,727 --> 00:37:43,207
Speaker 1: red carpet.

788
00:37:43,327 --> 00:37:45,847
Speaker 2: It's been a long time since Bridget Jones puts She's

789
00:37:45,887 --> 00:37:48,247
Speaker 2: back right. So it's coming out next year. The movie

790
00:37:48,287 --> 00:37:54,767
Speaker 2: is called Mad About the Boy. Myron Bridget is a widow.

791
00:37:54,887 --> 00:37:57,527
Speaker 2: I'm about to ruin some days. This is not a spoiler.

792
00:37:57,567 --> 00:38:00,327
Speaker 2: It's in the first two seconds of the trailer. Mark

793
00:38:00,447 --> 00:38:04,407
Speaker 2: Darcy is dead. I repeat, Mark Darcy is dead. I

794
00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:06,367
Speaker 2: hope I haven't ruined your day, But they go, you've

795
00:38:06,567 --> 00:38:11,127
Speaker 2: had enough anyway. So Bridge is now fifty one. Renee

796
00:38:11,167 --> 00:38:13,567
Speaker 2: herself is fifty five, but Bridget is fifty one. She

797
00:38:13,767 --> 00:38:16,407
Speaker 2: is a widow. Mark has been dead for four years.

798
00:38:16,407 --> 00:38:18,607
Speaker 2: She's got a couple of cute kids. She's trying to

799
00:38:18,647 --> 00:38:21,927
Speaker 2: be a single mum, and she starts a relationship with

800
00:38:22,207 --> 00:38:24,967
Speaker 2: twenty nine year old Leah Woodhull, who is the hot

801
00:38:25,007 --> 00:38:29,367
Speaker 2: backpacker in the White Lotus Right now for one millennial columnist,

802
00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:32,647
Speaker 2: at least, the site of Rene and Leo snuggling was

803
00:38:32,687 --> 00:38:35,407
Speaker 2: the last straw in a year when we've had Nicole Kidman,

804
00:38:35,487 --> 00:38:36,927
Speaker 2: Laura dern An, Anne Hathaway.

805
00:38:37,287 --> 00:38:37,887
Speaker 1: At least.

806
00:38:38,087 --> 00:38:39,767
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are more. I just couldn't think of

807
00:38:39,767 --> 00:38:42,447
Speaker 2: them playing older women who are dating younger men. And

808
00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:45,207
Speaker 2: of course Kidman's doing it again in a very much

809
00:38:45,287 --> 00:38:47,967
Speaker 2: hyped Ardie movie called Baby Girl, also out next year.

810
00:38:48,407 --> 00:38:51,927
Speaker 2: The UK Times writer Charlie Gowan's Egglington that is a

811
00:38:52,087 --> 00:38:52,927
Speaker 2: very English name.

812
00:38:53,407 --> 00:38:54,047
Speaker 1: Is that a girl?

813
00:38:54,287 --> 00:38:58,327
Speaker 2: It's a girl? Thinks enough now, she writes, this has

814
00:38:58,367 --> 00:39:01,567
Speaker 2: got to stop, because there aren't enough younger men to

815
00:39:01,647 --> 00:39:04,887
Speaker 2: go around. Have you seen how j Lo looks in

816
00:39:04,887 --> 00:39:08,207
Speaker 2: a sequin bodysuit at fifty five? Gwyneth Paltrow naked in

817
00:39:08,247 --> 00:39:11,047
Speaker 2: her garden at forty eight, Pamea Anderson without a scrap

818
00:39:11,047 --> 00:39:13,607
Speaker 2: of makeupon at fifty seven. As a woman, I am

819
00:39:13,647 --> 00:39:15,807
Speaker 2: in awe, but as a single woman in her thirties,

820
00:39:15,887 --> 00:39:20,007
Speaker 2: I do not need the competition. With a disposable income,

821
00:39:20,087 --> 00:39:22,447
Speaker 2: I can't match the forty and fifty something women I

822
00:39:22,527 --> 00:39:25,367
Speaker 2: know have hot bods toned from daily pilates that they

823
00:39:25,407 --> 00:39:28,807
Speaker 2: can afford, and hot faces from weekly light therapy facials

824
00:39:28,807 --> 00:39:31,367
Speaker 2: and maybe a bit of botox. Fifty is a new thirty,

825
00:39:31,447 --> 00:39:35,887
Speaker 2: but with a property portfolio and without ticking biological clock anxiety.

826
00:39:36,287 --> 00:39:38,287
Speaker 2: She goes on to say, though, that she gets it,

827
00:39:38,367 --> 00:39:41,967
Speaker 2: because who else would they date, not men their own age.

828
00:39:42,007 --> 00:39:45,127
Speaker 2: She says, that's a particularly bleak market. As I know,

829
00:39:45,607 --> 00:39:48,527
Speaker 2: She says, I've always dated five to ten years older myself.

830
00:39:48,767 --> 00:39:51,927
Speaker 2: But once that put the men into their forties, something shifted.

831
00:39:52,287 --> 00:39:55,207
Speaker 2: Suddenly they're bitter about their divorce, about losing the house

832
00:39:55,247 --> 00:39:58,607
Speaker 2: in the divorce, about losing their hair. They seem to

833
00:39:58,607 --> 00:40:00,967
Speaker 2: hate women, and that I'm too old, even though I'm

834
00:40:00,967 --> 00:40:05,047
Speaker 2: a decade younger than them. Oh wow. She also writes

835
00:40:05,127 --> 00:40:08,207
Speaker 2: that older women are no longer older, which also is

836
00:40:08,247 --> 00:40:10,927
Speaker 2: making younger men more a attractive I still feel the

837
00:40:10,967 --> 00:40:14,167
Speaker 2: same age, One mid thirties female friend told her, so,

838
00:40:14,207 --> 00:40:17,167
Speaker 2: I still fancy the same type. That means her new

839
00:40:17,167 --> 00:40:21,447
Speaker 2: boyfriend is a few years younger. So what do we think, Jesse,

840
00:40:21,847 --> 00:40:24,807
Speaker 2: as an early thirties person. Should the old ducks be

841
00:40:24,927 --> 00:40:27,647
Speaker 2: leaving the young ducks for the young ducks?

842
00:40:28,007 --> 00:40:30,727
Speaker 4: I think it's important. I think it's aspirational. I think

843
00:40:30,727 --> 00:40:34,567
Speaker 4: it's corrective and necessary. But look, women in their thirties,

844
00:40:34,967 --> 00:40:37,247
Speaker 4: we need to be honest about who we are. And

845
00:40:37,287 --> 00:40:39,687
Speaker 4: I can say this because I am one. We are neurotic.

846
00:40:40,207 --> 00:40:44,007
Speaker 4: We're not in a great place where a little desperate.

847
00:40:44,847 --> 00:40:49,767
Speaker 4: We are trying to go places, do things, potentially make

848
00:40:49,807 --> 00:40:51,527
Speaker 4: babies if that's on your list of things you want

849
00:40:51,567 --> 00:40:57,887
Speaker 4: to do, and that makes dating complicated and hard, and

850
00:40:58,407 --> 00:41:00,527
Speaker 4: you come across as a bit intense. I say that

851
00:41:00,607 --> 00:41:02,767
Speaker 4: as someone who has come across as a bit intense.

852
00:41:03,687 --> 00:41:05,927
Speaker 4: The thing about women who are twenty five or forty

853
00:41:05,967 --> 00:41:09,447
Speaker 4: five or fifty five is that they're chill they're really chill.

854
00:41:09,607 --> 00:41:16,327
Speaker 4: What's so intimidating about a fifty year Oh yeah, shit,

855
00:41:16,727 --> 00:41:19,607
Speaker 4: not youshue. Well, you're not dating younger men, are you.

856
00:41:20,247 --> 00:41:23,327
Speaker 4: But those women, she's just spot on. They're looking great,

857
00:41:24,007 --> 00:41:26,287
Speaker 4: they know where they are in their professional life. They're

858
00:41:26,327 --> 00:41:28,887
Speaker 4: not as anxious and like frazzled about the whole thing.

859
00:41:29,487 --> 00:41:32,247
Speaker 4: They can buy more expensive clothes often, and they just

860
00:41:32,447 --> 00:41:34,847
Speaker 4: dress really well, like they've kind of found their personal

861
00:41:34,927 --> 00:41:37,807
Speaker 4: style a little bit. They've either had kids or they've

862
00:41:37,807 --> 00:41:40,767
Speaker 4: not had kids or whatever, and they're just comfortable in

863
00:41:40,807 --> 00:41:44,727
Speaker 4: that decision. There's this independence that I think we're finding

864
00:41:45,007 --> 00:41:49,127
Speaker 4: quite intimidating. And patriarchy teaches us that we must always

865
00:41:49,167 --> 00:41:52,167
Speaker 4: be in competition always, and so women have always had

866
00:41:52,167 --> 00:41:56,127
Speaker 4: this thing with younger women where it's like territorial because

867
00:41:56,567 --> 00:41:58,807
Speaker 4: we are taught that to be young and beautiful is

868
00:41:58,807 --> 00:42:02,727
Speaker 4: our value. But now we're also looking up going Well,

869
00:42:02,727 --> 00:42:06,487
Speaker 4: they're intimidating too, because look at how they look and

870
00:42:06,527 --> 00:42:09,927
Speaker 4: how they carry themselves. My only worry is when I

871
00:42:09,967 --> 00:42:12,407
Speaker 4: look at all the women that you listed off, is

872
00:42:12,487 --> 00:42:16,127
Speaker 4: the young man, if we're honest with ourselves, a reward

873
00:42:16,207 --> 00:42:20,607
Speaker 4: for labor And by that I mean labor of face.

874
00:42:20,407 --> 00:42:23,807
Speaker 2: Involved maintenance, labor, high maintenance.

875
00:42:23,407 --> 00:42:24,207
Speaker 3: High maintenance.

876
00:42:24,367 --> 00:42:28,527
Speaker 4: Because Anne Hathaway, Nicole Kidman, renees Elweger are women who

877
00:42:28,887 --> 00:42:31,167
Speaker 4: don't look like fifty five year old women.

878
00:42:30,967 --> 00:42:34,567
Speaker 2: But normal in inverted commas. Women of that age will

879
00:42:34,607 --> 00:42:37,487
Speaker 2: tell you if you ask them, and the ones who

880
00:42:37,527 --> 00:42:39,767
Speaker 2: do not look like j Lo that if they are

881
00:42:39,847 --> 00:42:42,407
Speaker 2: new to the dating market, I'm going to make a generalization.

882
00:42:42,487 --> 00:42:45,087
Speaker 2: It's quite common that when you're fresh back on the

883
00:42:45,167 --> 00:42:47,647
Speaker 2: daily market after you've been off the market for a while,

884
00:42:47,887 --> 00:42:50,647
Speaker 2: the younger man thing is very exciting, and many many

885
00:42:50,647 --> 00:42:53,767
Speaker 2: women go there right and they will tell you, almost universally,

886
00:42:53,807 --> 00:42:55,847
Speaker 2: that those men do not give a shit about your

887
00:42:55,887 --> 00:42:59,287
Speaker 2: stretch marks, about your flabby tommy, about your errant chin hairs.

888
00:42:59,607 --> 00:43:00,967
Speaker 2: That's not what they're bothered about.

889
00:43:01,047 --> 00:43:01,527
Speaker 1: Do you reckon?

890
00:43:01,647 --> 00:43:03,207
Speaker 3: That's always been the case.

891
00:43:03,407 --> 00:43:06,167
Speaker 1: That's good. I wonder if that's so.

892
00:43:06,247 --> 00:43:07,607
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think the

893
00:43:07,607 --> 00:43:10,927
Speaker 2: younger men are only going for the rene Zellweggers and

894
00:43:10,927 --> 00:43:11,487
Speaker 2: the j Los.

895
00:43:11,727 --> 00:43:14,127
Speaker 1: Okay, But is that because in these women they're not

896
00:43:14,767 --> 00:43:18,327
Speaker 1: assessing them through the lens of future mother of my child.

897
00:43:18,887 --> 00:43:20,887
Speaker 2: I think they're just like the sex and the confidence

898
00:43:20,927 --> 00:43:23,327
Speaker 2: and the fact that they're just like these women want

899
00:43:23,367 --> 00:43:25,247
Speaker 2: to have sex with them because they want to have

900
00:43:25,327 --> 00:43:26,727
Speaker 2: some hot sex they haven't been having.

901
00:43:26,847 --> 00:43:28,487
Speaker 1: Maybe we can't get pregnant.

902
00:43:28,567 --> 00:43:32,767
Speaker 4: Maybe that dynamic has always existed, right, but dating apps

903
00:43:32,887 --> 00:43:35,287
Speaker 4: has meant they can find each other because it might

904
00:43:35,327 --> 00:43:37,927
Speaker 4: have been a little bit taboo previously. If you're an

905
00:43:37,927 --> 00:43:41,007
Speaker 4: older woman, you would assume they're not interested in the

906
00:43:41,087 --> 00:43:44,287
Speaker 4: younger man assumes you're not interested. But now there's like this, oh,

907
00:43:44,367 --> 00:43:46,607
Speaker 4: we have found each other in the mess of dating,

908
00:43:46,647 --> 00:43:47,527
Speaker 4: which is quite nice.

909
00:43:47,567 --> 00:43:49,167
Speaker 2: I want to know from Yuma, do you think we're

910
00:43:49,207 --> 00:43:51,687
Speaker 2: at the risk with all this pop culture that is

911
00:43:51,807 --> 00:43:55,207
Speaker 2: all about this At the moment it sort of felt

912
00:43:55,247 --> 00:43:58,327
Speaker 2: at first like a really welcome subversion of the older

913
00:43:58,367 --> 00:44:00,887
Speaker 2: man younger woman trope. But are we now in danger

914
00:44:00,927 --> 00:44:02,527
Speaker 2: of just creating another sad trope?

915
00:44:02,807 --> 00:44:06,007
Speaker 1: I think the problem with all of these pop culture references.

916
00:44:06,327 --> 00:44:08,367
Speaker 1: And this is why the Bridget Jones thing is going

917
00:44:08,407 --> 00:44:10,967
Speaker 1: to be interesting because all the women that you've mentioned

918
00:44:10,967 --> 00:44:15,247
Speaker 1: and Hathaway, Nicole Kidman j Lo, when they're with these

919
00:44:15,327 --> 00:44:19,687
Speaker 1: younger men, there's all this applause for isn't this great?

920
00:44:19,927 --> 00:44:23,607
Speaker 1: They're an older woman, but they don't look older, they

921
00:44:23,607 --> 00:44:28,007
Speaker 1: don't look the way that most women their age look.

922
00:44:28,287 --> 00:44:30,807
Speaker 1: So it's like, you can be an older woman as

923
00:44:30,887 --> 00:44:34,807
Speaker 1: long as you look like a much younger woman because

924
00:44:35,407 --> 00:44:39,727
Speaker 1: they're not having sex with Martha Stewart or Helen Mirren.

925
00:44:39,807 --> 00:44:42,527
Speaker 1: And it's annoying that either you have to look ageless

926
00:44:42,647 --> 00:44:44,567
Speaker 1: or like, you know, in your thirties, like Jay lo

927
00:44:44,767 --> 00:44:47,727
Speaker 1: and Nicole Kidman and all of those women, or you

928
00:44:47,767 --> 00:44:49,607
Speaker 1: can be Betty White. Well she's dead, but you know

929
00:44:49,647 --> 00:44:52,287
Speaker 1: what I mean, Martha Stewart, you can like look like old,

930
00:44:53,127 --> 00:44:56,047
Speaker 1: which means that you're then considered sexless. And just with

931
00:44:56,087 --> 00:44:58,247
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart for a minute, I thought it was so interesting.

932
00:44:58,807 --> 00:45:00,487
Speaker 1: I know we were talking about her last week, but that

933
00:45:00,607 --> 00:45:04,727
Speaker 1: idea of she was the original influencer and the comparisons

934
00:45:04,767 --> 00:45:08,807
Speaker 1: to Ballerina farm and Nara Smith. The difference with Martha

935
00:45:08,847 --> 00:45:11,847
Speaker 1: Stewart that she wasn't doing it for the malgaze. She

936
00:45:12,007 --> 00:45:15,607
Speaker 1: was doing it for herself, whereas these women they're looking

937
00:45:15,687 --> 00:45:20,487
Speaker 1: hot while they're cooking, you know, and cleaning and looking

938
00:45:20,527 --> 00:45:23,007
Speaker 1: after the kids, whereas that was different. And my point

939
00:45:23,047 --> 00:45:25,687
Speaker 1: is that you don't get the sense that these women

940
00:45:25,727 --> 00:45:29,167
Speaker 1: that we're seeing depicted in culture are free of the malgaze,

941
00:45:29,367 --> 00:45:32,807
Speaker 1: even though on paper they are liberated from all of

942
00:45:32,847 --> 00:45:36,527
Speaker 1: these things. I think you made a really good point, Jesse,

943
00:45:36,687 --> 00:45:39,527
Speaker 1: which is it's like the swan. There's so much going

944
00:45:39,527 --> 00:45:42,887
Speaker 1: on under the surface to make them look like that.

945
00:45:43,047 --> 00:45:46,127
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard women in midlife talk about I guess

946
00:45:46,127 --> 00:45:51,047
Speaker 4: it's a patriarchal bargain of feeling as though tweaks or

947
00:45:51,167 --> 00:45:53,527
Speaker 4: enhancements are necessary in order.

948
00:45:53,407 --> 00:45:56,087
Speaker 1: To what's become baseline to keep your job.

949
00:45:55,967 --> 00:45:57,807
Speaker 4: Or to And I just wonder if this is an

950
00:45:57,847 --> 00:46:00,407
Speaker 4: extension of that. If I'm consuming all of this culture,

951
00:46:00,527 --> 00:46:04,407
Speaker 4: am I going all of this work equals younger man.

952
00:46:04,487 --> 00:46:06,527
Speaker 2: There's a lot of truth to that. But as I said, like,

953
00:46:06,567 --> 00:46:08,887
Speaker 2: this is not something that is only the premise of

954
00:46:09,007 --> 00:46:14,207
Speaker 2: the tight pilates botox ladies. This is lots of ordinary

955
00:46:14,487 --> 00:46:17,167
Speaker 2: And I know it's terrible language to say ordinary not ordinary,

956
00:46:17,207 --> 00:46:19,727
Speaker 2: but one of the number one things that midwomen will

957
00:46:19,727 --> 00:46:21,967
Speaker 2: tell you about having sex with younger guys is they

958
00:46:22,007 --> 00:46:24,487
Speaker 2: don't give a shit, and that's fantastic and freeing.

959
00:46:24,607 --> 00:46:24,807
Speaker 1: Right.

960
00:46:25,607 --> 00:46:27,607
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is interesting because

961
00:46:27,687 --> 00:46:30,167
Speaker 2: another reason why this might suddenly be everywhere as women

962
00:46:30,207 --> 00:46:32,407
Speaker 2: have more power now about what they want to see

963
00:46:32,407 --> 00:46:34,767
Speaker 2: and what they want to watch and what they want

964
00:46:34,807 --> 00:46:37,127
Speaker 2: to make. There are more women in more positions of power,

965
00:46:37,167 --> 00:46:39,207
Speaker 2: and all of the companies making all of these things.

966
00:46:39,847 --> 00:46:44,127
Speaker 2: And maybe they're like, I don't want to see constantly

967
00:46:44,207 --> 00:46:47,127
Speaker 2: represented that I have to be having hot sex only

968
00:46:47,607 --> 00:46:50,967
Speaker 2: with old guys. It's that too. It's like they're thinking,

969
00:46:51,287 --> 00:46:54,047
Speaker 2: I want to see hot young men and I think

970
00:46:54,047 --> 00:46:57,607
Speaker 2: that's great. Right, that's all we've got time for today.

971
00:46:57,647 --> 00:47:00,007
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders

972
00:47:00,047 --> 00:47:02,447
Speaker 2: for listening to today's show, and of course to our

973
00:47:02,487 --> 00:47:04,847
Speaker 2: wonderful team for putting it together. We're going to be

974
00:47:04,887 --> 00:47:06,087
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow.

975
00:47:06,247 --> 00:47:07,127
Speaker 3: Aye.

976
00:47:06,727 --> 00:47:10,367
Speaker 4: A shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening.

977
00:47:10,647 --> 00:47:12,727
Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us,

978
00:47:13,047 --> 00:47:15,807
Speaker 4: subscribing to Mum and MAA is the very best way

979
00:47:15,887 --> 00:47:18,447
Speaker 4: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.