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Speaker 1: Cass, you've got something for me and Jesse, you have

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Speaker 1: something for them. That is my little gift, my narcissistic

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Speaker 1: Is it more cake for the end of year?

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Speaker 2: Can you give it?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Those are the first I can promised only arcs, as

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Speaker 1: they're called advanced reader copies of my book that comes

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Speaker 1: out in April next year.

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Speaker 4: I have.

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Speaker 1: Only in the acknowledgment space. You now have to read

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Speaker 1: those over summer. Look at you, well for you.

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Speaker 4: This is probably a spoiler, but welcome to Green River,

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Speaker 4: fine Back.

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Speaker 3: Yes, five families, one long weekend.

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Speaker 2: What could go wrong?

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Speaker 3: He would never It's called you have never told us

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Speaker 3: the title.

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Speaker 4: You've told us, You've told us nothing because you're so

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Speaker 4: weird about your books.

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Speaker 2: She's been so secretive.

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Speaker 1: It's not the obviously, that's the arc cover. That's not

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Speaker 1: like what the actual book will look like in the shops.

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Speaker 1: But I thought my bitches need the first copies.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so excited. This have made my Christmas. This

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Speaker 4: is it's my birthday present.

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Speaker 1: It's a very narcissistic present from me. Here. Let me

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Speaker 1: give you a job. Read my book. See if you

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Speaker 1: like it, tell me what you've this.

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Speaker 4: I have just read the first sentence.

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Speaker 3: Oh, my fifth novel. He would Never is her fifth novel.

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Speaker 3: I made a board of Luna's life. That's great.

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Speaker 2: Five is a very significant number.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so excited, Holly, thank you and I love these.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out loud, what women

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Speaker 1: are actually talking about on Wednesday, the eighteenth of December.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne right, I'm Meya Friedman.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: And on the show today, because it's one of the

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Speaker 1: last shows of the year, I've forgot to write my

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Speaker 1: little bit where I say what happened on the show today,

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Speaker 1: So let's just wing it. So on the show today,

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Speaker 1: we are telling you all about a twenty seven year

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Speaker 1: old Swedish influencer.

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Speaker 2: Why that will become clear awesome?

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Speaker 1: Why can't we have nice things? That is because we

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Speaker 1: have canceled all our favorite Christmas movies. Yes, even Kiera

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Speaker 1: Knightley has turned on love actually, and a very famous

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Speaker 1: woman is being torn apart online for her looks. Again,

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Speaker 1: it must be Wednesday first.

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Speaker 4: In case you missed it, the Orcas are doing weird

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Speaker 4: things again. I swear twice a year Orcas make headlines

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Speaker 4: for making interesting choices. And this time it's that they're

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Speaker 4: wearing salmon hats. Yes, salmon for a hat. Now, some

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Speaker 4: researchers think this is a social fad. It's trendy to

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Speaker 4: wear your salmon hat. Orcas are known for their complex

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Speaker 4: social structures, so they imitate each other.

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Speaker 3: When you say salmon hat, it's literally they're putting salmon

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Speaker 3: on their live salmon on their heads.

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Speaker 4: A photographer caught it.

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Speaker 1: Ye isn't it just because they were trying to eat

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Speaker 1: them and they missed?

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Speaker 4: No, holly, it is a decretive, it isn't. Apparently in

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty seven, one Orca did it one day and

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Speaker 4: then everyone copied her because they like to kind of

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Speaker 4: be in on it.

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Speaker 3: And there's no evolutionary reason for it. It's got nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with food. There's no advantage to doing it.

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Speaker 3: It's not about survival or Darwinism. It's just a trend.

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Speaker 4: It's a trend.

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Speaker 1: Maa hopes will happen when she wears her shoe jewelry.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's what I was going to say, is Maya,

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Speaker 4: how long until you dig up your salmon hat again

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Speaker 4: and start wearing it to work?

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Speaker 2: See, I'm so suggestible. This has made me.

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Speaker 4: Go salmon hat. There is another theory, which is that

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Speaker 4: they're being playful and it's all a bit of a

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Speaker 4: practical joke. If you came in to work with a salmon.

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Speaker 3: Hat or because are amazing, you come here to work

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Speaker 3: with more ridiculous things you have like jewelry on my feet.

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Speaker 4: You're such an orca. You even know everything about the

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Speaker 4: twenty seven year old Swedish influencer Matilda Jurf and the

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Speaker 4: allegations made about her brand, Jurf Avenue, or you know nothing?

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Speaker 4: I know nothing, Holly, where are you at?

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Speaker 1: I know less than nothing.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, I'm about to inform you both. I'm the

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Speaker 4: one without the patches. Let's just say.

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Speaker 2: That it maybe I knew, but I've forgotten.

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Speaker 4: Jeff's career began as an influencer on Instagram and then

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Speaker 4: on TikTok. So for context, she has about three million

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Speaker 4: followers on Instagram and one point five million on TikTok.

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Speaker 4: She grew her platform through travel and lifestyle content, and

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Speaker 4: then in twenty nineteen, she was twenty three years old,

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Speaker 4: she co founded Jeff Avenue with her partner. They sell clothing, homewares, accessories,

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Speaker 4: no bugle chairs as far as I can tell. But

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Speaker 4: she's known for really focusing on size diversity and mental

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Speaker 4: health awareness. She's been very outspoken about her experience as

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Speaker 4: a teenager with eating disorders. So in August twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: The New York Times publishes a profile on her. It's

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Speaker 4: all about the TikTok influence, building a multimillion dollar lifestyle empire,

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Speaker 4: and she talks about self love and how this is

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Speaker 4: a fashion brand that is completely welcoming and inclusive of everyone. Maya,

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Speaker 4: what do you think happened next?

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Speaker 2: Oh, let me guess.

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Speaker 4: After she was built up by The New York Times

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Speaker 4: as an icon of her generation, where is there to go?

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Speaker 2: One way down the toilet? Is that what happened?

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Speaker 4: In fact, last week an expose was published by a

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Speaker 4: Swedish newspaper which included interviews with eleven current and former

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Speaker 4: Jurf Avenue staff members. And here's what they alleged out.

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Speaker 2: Of how many I'd be interested to know, but still.

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Speaker 4: Going So staffers claimed they lost sleep, they had panic attacks,

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Speaker 4: and they went home crying some days. One said that

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Speaker 4: Matilda would line up the employees and yell at them

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Speaker 4: and call them names. Another said she would be angry

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Speaker 4: if there was no coffee, if someone was sitting in

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Speaker 4: the wrong seat, or if her food hadn't been heated up.

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Speaker 4: This claim has probably gone the most viral, and it's

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Speaker 4: that she had her own personal toilet in the office.

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Speaker 4: She had a little sign up that said no one

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Speaker 4: else could use it, but one day the sign fell off.

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Speaker 4: It was just like a post it no d thing.

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Speaker 4: So someone accidentally used it, and then allegedly Jeff made

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Speaker 4: an employee scrub it before she would use it again.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Then there are claims she you know.

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Speaker 3: There's plausible deniability kind of until that point. Yeah, at

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Speaker 3: that point, and then also lining people up and shouting

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Speaker 3: at them, not as practice.

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Speaker 4: Then there are claims of fat phobia. Allegedly she made

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Speaker 4: derogatory comments about a plast sized model during a photo shoot,

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Speaker 4: saying we have to reshoot this because she looks so

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Speaker 4: effing fat in these clothes. We can't show that. There

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Speaker 4: are also claims that she'd comment on staff members and

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Speaker 4: how their bodies looked in genes, whether they're bum filled

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Speaker 4: out the genes or they didn't. One accuser, and this

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Speaker 4: is a headline you have probably seen, said working there

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Speaker 4: with psychological terror. Then this week she responded with an apology.

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Speaker 4: So this was on Instagram and she wrote over the

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Speaker 4: part last few days, I've been quiet on social media.

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Speaker 4: My highest priority has been to meet with the Jeff

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Speaker 4: Avenue team and speak to them. I am fully aware

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Speaker 4: that my words here are not an answer or a solution,

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Speaker 4: but for me, it's important to write this directly to you.

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Speaker 4: And it went on there were fource lives, but basically

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Speaker 4: she said big. Sorry, she didn't expect the company would

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Speaker 4: get this big. She wasn't ready and she didn't have

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Speaker 4: the experience. She said. They've now hired a more experienced

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Speaker 4: management team. There are monthly anonymous surveys and an external

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Speaker 4: organizational psychologist. She concluded with I want to end by

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Speaker 4: saying thank you to all of you who've had honest

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Speaker 4: and transparent conversations with me over the past few days.

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Speaker 4: There is no defensiveness in this. There is no explanation

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Speaker 4: even was this the apology she had to publish? Was

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Speaker 4: there any other choice?

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Speaker 2: Well, no, there wasn't.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds like if these claims hold up and

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Speaker 3: she didn't deny them for sure, I mean it seems

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Speaker 3: like her behavior was not congruent with what people had

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Speaker 3: expected from her. What's highlighted to me is that most

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Speaker 3: people who start businesses don't start them because they want

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Speaker 3: to manage people and managing people. I know that when

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Speaker 3: I became an editor at twenty four, I had no

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Speaker 3: experience managing people. It's not why I wanted to be

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Speaker 3: an editor to manage people. And yet it's a really

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Speaker 3: important part of a job as you build a company,

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Speaker 3: which is why founders often don't make the best CEOs

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Speaker 3: and the best managers. What can make you really good

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Speaker 3: as a founder might make you really bad as a manager.

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Speaker 3: And it seems like she's now understood that and hired

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Speaker 3: the right people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if we've been given the impression that anyone

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Speaker 4: can start their own business, anyone can be their own boss.

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Speaker 4: But in doing so, we've really underestimated the skills and

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Speaker 4: the experience that running a business, that managing people, that

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Speaker 4: organizing a team, that is a really hard thing to

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Speaker 4: do that most people have no idea where to even start.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think most people know that you shouldn't make

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Speaker 3: someonun scrub your toilet like you know, to be fair,

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Speaker 3: it it makes people scrub the toilet. You don't shout

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Speaker 3: at people, you don't body shame people. Ever, I don't

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Speaker 3: think you need to learn that at management school. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: holl what were you going to say?

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say because I agree with

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Speaker 1: exactly what you said to me, or that I think

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Speaker 1: that we've really elevated this idea of the girl boss

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Speaker 1: in Inverted Commas, which is such an awful patronizing title,

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Speaker 1: but this idea that if you're great at what you do,

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Speaker 1: then of course you should build a business on it.

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Speaker 1: But as you've said, there's so much more to it.

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Speaker 1: But I also wonder if maybe when you're twenty three,

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Speaker 1: your idea of what a boss behaves like, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, Well, these idiots aren't doing what I

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Speaker 1: want them to do, so I'm going to shout at them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, is there just a sort of

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Speaker 1: immaturity in understanding how you handle people that you're not

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Speaker 1: going to get from just being really good at what

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Speaker 1: you do. I think that there's a really fair point there.

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Speaker 1: The other question I wanted to ask Jesse if this

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Speaker 1: is an all or nothing segment, right, and we come

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Speaker 1: to it knowing nothing why do some people know all

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Speaker 1: about this? As in, what I'm interested in is why

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Speaker 1: is everyone obsessed with a story about an allegedly bad boss.

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Speaker 1: Is it because she is a influencer in inverted commons,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously the modern celebrity. She is female, she

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Speaker 1: is attractive, she is young. Why are people in your

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Speaker 1: world all obsessed with this story? Because it seems on

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Speaker 1: the face of it, person manages badly, person learns lesson

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Speaker 1: not to do that.

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Speaker 4: So I think the first thing is that a lot

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Speaker 4: of people have purchased their products, and they.

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Speaker 1: Really high products.

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Speaker 4: It's like a shirt or a dress with a very

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Speaker 4: distinctive print on it that people wear, some of the accessories,

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Speaker 4: some of the home wears. Generally speaking, it's not the

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Speaker 4: fast fashion you might see from a lot of other businesses.

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Speaker 4: She started with one drop of clothing, which was like

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Speaker 4: maybe ten items, and they're manufactured in Europe and they

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Speaker 4: never go on sale or anything like that. She held

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Speaker 4: herself to these particular standards, and because she's talked about

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Speaker 4: her anorexia and her orthorexia during her teen years, she's

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Speaker 4: been very much like, my brand is going to go

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Speaker 4: up to I think it's a four extra large or

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Speaker 4: something like. She has made that a real hallmark of

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Speaker 4: what she does and making people feel included.

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Speaker 1: So that's why everybody's focusing on the edge fat shaming

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Speaker 1: comments because basically what we most like in this kind

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Speaker 1: of story is a perceived exposed hypocrisy.

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Speaker 4: Right, yes, and there is something so aspirational, like if

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Speaker 4: you go on to TikTok Matilda Jeff's haircut, like the

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Speaker 4: way that she wears her hair is one of the

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Speaker 4: most iconic image, like it's what people ask for. She's

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Speaker 4: this very Swedish looking traditionally beautiful. Like part of the

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Speaker 4: story is that she got really famous from posting bikini shots.

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Speaker 4: Like people are really invested in her image, I suppose,

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Speaker 4: And because they followed her and they watched her grow

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Speaker 4: and they watched this ideal of this business and all the.

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Speaker 3: Parasocial relationship that people have with influencers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they definitely felt like they knew her, I think.

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Speaker 4: And then when this came out, it was the classic

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Speaker 4: build something up to this ridiculous level and then inevitably

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Speaker 4: something was going to come out in saying that this

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Speaker 4: is bad. But I was thinking about the Elon Musk,

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Speaker 4: the Jeff Bezos, and I know that they are a

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Speaker 4: totally different level. But even the fact we consider them

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Speaker 4: so much more serious than someone who owns a lifestyle brand,

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Speaker 4: I think there's probably some sexism inherent in that. But

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Speaker 4: I was like, hang on.

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Speaker 3: Well, they are more influential in the world, let's be clear,

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Speaker 3: than an influencer who started a fashion brand. But I

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Speaker 3: guess what your pointing to is that the different standards

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Speaker 3: were you applied to female bosses.

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Speaker 4: Then yeah, so Jeff's Bezos. There's a book written about

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Speaker 4: working for Jeff Bezos. He calls his employees routinely stupid

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Speaker 4: and competent, lazy nutters. The culture is described as notorious, confrontational.

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk working for all Musk, the racism, the sexual

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Speaker 4: harassment that has been he has been accused of. There

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Speaker 4: is a worker at Teza, a black woman who went

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Speaker 4: and worked for him, broke her wrist and then were

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Speaker 4: sent back onto the factory line. These men, how these

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Speaker 4: men run their businesses. It's Teflon like, I just think.

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Speaker 1: They don't put themselves forward as anything other than that.

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Speaker 1: They don't suggest for a minute. Elon Musk certainly does

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Speaker 1: not that working with him is going to be warm

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Speaker 1: and fuzzy, and that they're doing anything other than making

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Speaker 1: as many Tesla's or starlink panels or whatever it is

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Speaker 1: as quickly as they can and getting him out there

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Speaker 1: as quickly as they can. He's famously I sleep on

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Speaker 1: the factory floor, all those kind of things. No one

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Speaker 1: is sort of expecting that to be any different. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that's fine. I'm just saying that the problem

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Speaker 1: always comes with these with this kind of stuff is

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Speaker 1: where people feel like they can go aha, gotcha, And

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Speaker 1: there's nothing people like more or take more pleasure in

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Speaker 1: than she pretending to be something she's not. You know

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Speaker 1: what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Business then just left to men because men don't have

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Speaker 4: to pretend to be nice, They don't have to pretend

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Speaker 4: to be accommodating, they don't have to pretend.

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Speaker 2: To the care about social justice or care about.

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Speaker 4: Anyone because these men, you're right, they don't have private

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Speaker 4: TikTok accounts where they're going. Let's talk about size inclusivity,

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Speaker 4: but they're also on the front page of every Forbes,

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Speaker 4: of every business. They're known as the best business men

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Speaker 4: in the world. X recently had this big case because

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Speaker 4: they refused in fact, mocked someone for wanting accessibility because

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Speaker 4: they were in a wheelchair, Like really basic stuff, and

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Speaker 4: it never gets any traction.

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Speaker 3: Some would say that it's not men taking Matilda down,

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Speaker 3: it's other women. So these female founders that get taken down,

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Speaker 3: it's by other women.

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Speaker 2: So what would you say about that?

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Speaker 3: You know that sort of taps into that, Oh, women

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Speaker 3: are our own worst enemies. Men don't say why isn't

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk more conscious of his employees or the environment

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Speaker 3: or social justice?

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Speaker 1: Well, to be fair, some do literal books. As you've said, Jesse,

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Speaker 1: Literal books have been written about it. You will find

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Speaker 1: a million articles on the internet about how awfully Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk is to work for. It's just it's not a priority.

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Speaker 1: His success and fame and notoriety isn't built on TikTok popularity.

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Speaker 3: But women's success in business has to be built on

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Speaker 3: the pretense or the reality of being in service to others.

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Speaker 4: With those men, we see their work as the important part,

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Speaker 4: and with the women, we see their likability as the

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Speaker 4: important part. There is just about nothing that I would

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Speaker 4: read in this, And again I think that this is

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Speaker 4: deplorable and I think this is wrong and I really

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Speaker 4: feel for those employees, if you know, because there are allegations,

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Speaker 4: but there's nothing there that Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos

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Speaker 4: likely hasn't done at one of their companies. But it

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Speaker 4: just simply doesn't matter if they're likable. It's just we

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Speaker 4: look at what they've done and we go, oh, my goodness.

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Speaker 2: They're not going to get canceled being unlikeable.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to touch their bottom line. Slable, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. They're like literally in charge of the world.

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Speaker 4: Even men like male business owners who would be on

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Speaker 4: a similar level, right, Like, maybe they're very, very high,

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Speaker 4: but we've seen fashion designers who are men or running

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Speaker 4: fashion houses with similar stories come out and it just

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Speaker 4: doesn't impact the bottom line.

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Speaker 3: Look at Jake and Logan Paul, So Jake is the boxer,

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Speaker 3: Logan is the entrepreneur, and he has released these drinks

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Speaker 3: called Prime Drinks and all these different things, and when

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Speaker 3: something goes wrong for them, it's more about the quality

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Speaker 3: of the product Logan Paul launched. As well as the

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Speaker 3: Prime drinks that he launched, it or a huge success.

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Speaker 3: He then launched this like pre made lunch boxes like

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Speaker 3: for kids in America, called Lunchly and this was his

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Speaker 3: new brand in this new business, and a lot of

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Speaker 3: them were found to have mold inside them. There was

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Speaker 3: a big BackFlash about that, but no one really cares

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Speaker 3: if he's a nice person or not. So it's not

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Speaker 3: that people are saying about Matilda Jerff's clothes and her

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Speaker 3: brand jurf Avenue that these closer poor quality, or these

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Speaker 3: closer made in sweatshops, or these products are too expensive

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Speaker 3: or they fall apart. But what they're saying is that

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Speaker 3: she doesn't embody the values that we want from that brand,

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Speaker 3: because increasingly, particularly young people want their brands to embody

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Speaker 3: social justice values for them.

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Speaker 4: But it's funny like we'd wear Nike or added As

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Speaker 4: happily without probably even knowing who the current owner is

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Speaker 4: of that. But if you were wearing her clothes today,

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Speaker 4: if you're wearing something that was very clearly made by

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Speaker 4: her line.

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Speaker 3: Then because that says something about you, but what you forgive,

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Speaker 3: don't apply that to well interestingly people, there's a whole

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Speaker 3: big movement in the States of people putting stickers on

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Speaker 3: the back of their tesla's saying I bought this before

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk became an asshole.

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Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of people have an abandoned Twitter

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Speaker 1: and getting rid of stylink, and it's a huge thing

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Speaker 1: because they're taking a set on elon products.

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Speaker 3: I was reading a study a couple of years ago

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Speaker 3: about how as faith in our institutions, in governments, in experts,

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Speaker 3: in the church, all of those things have fallen away.

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Speaker 3: People have then put those same expectations on their workplaces

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Speaker 3: and the brands that they support, and they want those

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Speaker 3: brands and the CEOs of these companies to embody their

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Speaker 3: values and solve social justice problems, whether it's racism or

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Speaker 3: sexism or climate change.

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Speaker 1: Also, it's possibly a perception of the generation of people

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Speaker 1: who are going to work for her, because if you're

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Speaker 1: going to go and work in a Tesla factory, you

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Speaker 1: probably have a pretty clear expectation of what that job's

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Speaker 1: going to be. But if you've been following Matilda durf

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Speaker 1: on TikTok for four years and then you get your

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Speaker 1: dream job in her company, you probably imagine it's all

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Speaker 1: sitting around brushing each other's hair and talking about your

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Speaker 1: mental health issues from your teenage years, when actually every

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Speaker 1: business is about work. And I'm not saying that wat

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Speaker 1: The way she was behaving was about that, but I

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Speaker 1: think that probably also says something about what the employees

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Speaker 1: are gonna expect.

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Speaker 4: Out Louders. The countdown is on this time next week

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Speaker 4: it will be Christmas.

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Speaker 2: I heard the newies. Who's coming with us on tour?

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, no, the outluders are so excited and Vernon

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Speaker 4: is coming with us on tour. And if you are

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Speaker 4: by Nivia Cellular featuring Emily Vernon.

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Speaker 3: A lot of about Lauders said that they were on

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Speaker 2: The edge to buy their tickets, which.

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Speaker 1: Is good to know. But we are going to Sydney, Brisbane,

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Speaker 1: Melbourne and Perth, although Perth is sold out so sorry.

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Speaker 4: Should we mention and Vernham's name one more time to

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Speaker 4: ensure that people come, because I feel like she is

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Speaker 4: at this point.

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Speaker 2: N's parents will come.

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Speaker 3: How it is that when we told her her parents

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Speaker 4: I'm very offended invited. We would have loved to drink too,

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Speaker 4: and Vernum's parents so true. After the break, it's the

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Speaker 1: from Mamma Mia. What better way to say Merry Christmas

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Speaker 1: to that out louder in your life. Welcome to a

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Speaker 1: festive edition of why we can't have Nice Things? As

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Speaker 1: it has become customary at this time of year, it's

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Speaker 1: two of the characters work on porn sets. It is fat, shamey.

438
00:22:32,847 --> 00:22:35,687
Speaker 1: Hugh Grant's sexy Prime Minister is a figure of mystery

439
00:22:35,727 --> 00:22:39,047
Speaker 1: for fancying Martine McCutcheon when she's about I'd say a

440
00:22:39,167 --> 00:22:42,767
Speaker 1: size ten, and Colin Firth's wet writer falls for the

441
00:22:42,887 --> 00:22:46,567
Speaker 1: thin sister in inverted commas of a Portuguese cleaner and

442
00:22:47,007 --> 00:22:52,087
Speaker 1: love actually also encourages stalkoorish behavior. Remember that scene, of

443
00:22:52,087 --> 00:22:55,167
Speaker 1: Course You Do is one of the most memed movie

444
00:22:55,207 --> 00:22:57,527
Speaker 1: scenes of all time, where that guy from The Walking

445
00:22:57,567 --> 00:23:01,407
Speaker 1: Dead turns up at Kira Knightley's house with the signs I.

446
00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:03,687
Speaker 4: Like that scene. I still think it's romantic. So there

447
00:23:03,727 --> 00:23:04,047
Speaker 4: you go.

448
00:23:04,207 --> 00:23:07,647
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he says, say it's Carol Singers to me.

449
00:23:07,767 --> 00:23:08,647
Speaker 2: You are perfect.

450
00:23:09,287 --> 00:23:11,327
Speaker 4: I wouldn't mind someone to just say I.

451
00:23:11,447 --> 00:23:12,687
Speaker 2: Know right, lovely.

452
00:23:13,167 --> 00:23:16,167
Speaker 1: It's twenty one years later and Kiera Knightley is still

453
00:23:16,207 --> 00:23:19,167
Speaker 1: being asked about that scene as she's promoting Black Doves,

454
00:23:19,287 --> 00:23:22,007
Speaker 1: and she says she wanted to remind everyone that she

455
00:23:22,087 --> 00:23:24,967
Speaker 1: was actually only seventeen when it was made. That's creepy,

456
00:23:25,287 --> 00:23:28,367
Speaker 1: I know, she says, the slightly stalkerish aspect of it.

457
00:23:28,447 --> 00:23:31,087
Speaker 1: I do remember that she said in an interview, my

458
00:23:31,207 --> 00:23:33,927
Speaker 1: memory is of Richard Curtis, who's the director, who is

459
00:23:34,047 --> 00:23:36,567
Speaker 1: now a very dear friend, and of me doing the

460
00:23:36,607 --> 00:23:39,487
Speaker 1: scene and Richard saying, no, you're looking at him like

461
00:23:39,527 --> 00:23:42,607
Speaker 1: he's creepy, and I'm like, yeah, but it is quite creepy,

462
00:23:42,847 --> 00:23:45,047
Speaker 1: and then having to redo it to fix my face

463
00:23:45,087 --> 00:23:48,887
Speaker 1: to make him seem not creepy. Also, I knew I

464
00:23:48,967 --> 00:23:51,367
Speaker 1: was seventeen. It only seems like a few years ago

465
00:23:51,487 --> 00:23:53,367
Speaker 1: that everyone else only just realized.

466
00:23:53,447 --> 00:23:55,047
Speaker 2: I was seven, she was seventeen.

467
00:23:55,127 --> 00:23:59,647
Speaker 3: Her character was eighteen and getting married, which is really

468
00:23:59,767 --> 00:24:01,887
Speaker 3: quite messed up in hindsight.

469
00:24:02,087 --> 00:24:02,767
Speaker 5: Is it messed up?

470
00:24:02,767 --> 00:24:04,567
Speaker 4: There's lots of people that get married at eighteen. I'll

471
00:24:04,607 --> 00:24:05,647
Speaker 4: defend that, Yeah.

472
00:24:05,447 --> 00:24:07,607
Speaker 3: But I don't think there was any acknowledgment that that's

473
00:24:07,647 --> 00:24:10,247
Speaker 3: quite young. I mean, yeah, sure it's legal in everything,

474
00:24:10,607 --> 00:24:13,207
Speaker 3: but that is kind of unusual.

475
00:24:13,527 --> 00:24:13,967
Speaker 2: Anyway.

476
00:24:14,047 --> 00:24:15,767
Speaker 4: I just won't have it ruined my Christmas.

477
00:24:15,767 --> 00:24:18,847
Speaker 1: No, I know, yeah, how do we feel about it generally?

478
00:24:18,847 --> 00:24:21,687
Speaker 1: But I know that this isn't a new dilemma now.

479
00:24:21,727 --> 00:24:24,007
Speaker 1: But I was thinking I haven't shown my kids love

480
00:24:24,047 --> 00:24:26,527
Speaker 1: actually because I have fallen in with this. Oh no,

481
00:24:26,647 --> 00:24:29,167
Speaker 1: it's a terrible thing. Even though I watch it every Christmas.

482
00:24:29,207 --> 00:24:30,807
Speaker 1: I was going to watch it to them tonight, and

483
00:24:30,847 --> 00:24:33,367
Speaker 1: then I thought, is this one of those things that

484
00:24:33,407 --> 00:24:35,447
Speaker 1: you watch with them, but you have to deliver like

485
00:24:36,087 --> 00:24:38,007
Speaker 1: a teachable moment before you play it.

486
00:24:38,087 --> 00:24:43,047
Speaker 3: Mia try watching Greece the amount of problematic things in Greece.

487
00:24:43,247 --> 00:24:46,247
Speaker 3: And I also tried to watch Muriel's wedding, which turns

488
00:24:46,247 --> 00:24:49,407
Speaker 3: thirty this month. There's a lovely bit of social with

489
00:24:49,447 --> 00:24:52,607
Speaker 3: all the cast wishing Muriel a happy thirtieth. But it's

490
00:24:52,607 --> 00:24:54,967
Speaker 3: funny you have these memories of these things and then

491
00:24:55,007 --> 00:24:58,167
Speaker 3: you go back and watch them and for anyone who

492
00:24:58,247 --> 00:25:01,367
Speaker 3: can get despondent about, oh, things are so bad in

493
00:25:01,407 --> 00:25:04,247
Speaker 3: the world, and you know, things are so bad for

494
00:25:04,327 --> 00:25:08,207
Speaker 3: women and we're going backwards. When you watch these films,

495
00:25:08,407 --> 00:25:11,607
Speaker 3: and you do, you watch them through the eyes because

496
00:25:11,647 --> 00:25:14,767
Speaker 3: you can't help it, the eyes of modern times and

497
00:25:14,807 --> 00:25:19,447
Speaker 3: how our views on things have changed, whether it's fat shaming,

498
00:25:19,767 --> 00:25:23,007
Speaker 3: body image talking, women's rights, all of those kinds of things.

499
00:25:23,407 --> 00:25:26,007
Speaker 3: You can see the progress just in our lifetime, like

500
00:25:26,047 --> 00:25:28,887
Speaker 3: you can see huge amounts of progress. But something that

501
00:25:28,927 --> 00:25:31,527
Speaker 3: I read that I wanted to ask you both about

502
00:25:31,847 --> 00:25:35,047
Speaker 3: is a relook at when Harry met Sally, which hole

503
00:25:35,407 --> 00:25:37,967
Speaker 3: I know it's one of your favorite films. I haven't

504
00:25:38,007 --> 00:25:40,327
Speaker 3: watched it for a really, really long time, but I

505
00:25:40,447 --> 00:25:43,807
Speaker 3: was very interested to see in The Atlantic something about

506
00:25:43,807 --> 00:25:47,087
Speaker 3: the casual cruelty of When Harry met Sally, and I

507
00:25:47,127 --> 00:25:48,887
Speaker 3: actually thought, no, I'm too tired.

508
00:25:49,527 --> 00:25:51,927
Speaker 1: So it's all because of this bit we're about to

509
00:25:51,927 --> 00:25:54,447
Speaker 1: play you And if you haven't seen When Harry met Sally,

510
00:25:54,447 --> 00:25:56,127
Speaker 1: what have you been doing with your life? So Harry

511
00:25:56,167 --> 00:25:58,447
Speaker 1: and Sally at this point are mates. They're really good mates.

512
00:25:58,447 --> 00:26:01,047
Speaker 1: They've been spending lots of time together. They are watching

513
00:26:01,087 --> 00:26:03,807
Speaker 1: classa blanket. He's in his house, she's in his house.

514
00:26:03,847 --> 00:26:06,287
Speaker 1: But they're on the phone to each other. And this

515
00:26:06,527 --> 00:26:08,487
Speaker 1: is what he says about ingrid Bergman.

516
00:26:09,447 --> 00:26:13,487
Speaker 5: Ingrad Bergman. Now she's low maintenance, low maintenance. There are

517
00:26:13,527 --> 00:26:16,887
Speaker 5: two kinds of women, high maintenance and low maintenance, and

518
00:26:17,047 --> 00:26:21,847
Speaker 5: Ingraderman is little maintenance and LM definitely which one am?

519
00:26:21,847 --> 00:26:24,567
Speaker 5: I you're the worst kind. You're high maintenance, but you

520
00:26:24,647 --> 00:26:25,607
Speaker 5: think you're low maintenance.

521
00:26:26,367 --> 00:26:27,007
Speaker 2: I don't see that.

522
00:26:27,567 --> 00:26:30,447
Speaker 5: You don't see that, waiter. I'll begin with the house salad,

523
00:26:30,487 --> 00:26:32,247
Speaker 5: but I don't want the regular dressing. I'll have the

524
00:26:32,247 --> 00:26:34,527
Speaker 5: ball sammon, vinegar and oil, but on the side, and

525
00:26:34,527 --> 00:26:36,287
Speaker 5: then the salmon with a mustard sauce, But I want

526
00:26:36,287 --> 00:26:38,767
Speaker 5: the mustard sauce on the side. On the side is

527
00:26:38,767 --> 00:26:39,727
Speaker 5: a very big thing for you.

528
00:26:40,087 --> 00:26:42,287
Speaker 2: Well, I just wanted the way I want it. I know,

529
00:26:42,567 --> 00:26:45,247
Speaker 2: high maintenance. So oh are you so many big feelings

530
00:26:45,287 --> 00:26:45,607
Speaker 2: about this?

531
00:26:46,807 --> 00:26:50,447
Speaker 1: Mia? There are plenty of high maintenance women by those standards,

532
00:26:50,487 --> 00:26:53,127
Speaker 1: I am one of them. What is wrong with saying.

533
00:26:52,887 --> 00:26:53,447
Speaker 2: It out loud?

534
00:26:53,887 --> 00:26:57,767
Speaker 3: I'm so conflicted about this because part of what he

535
00:26:57,887 --> 00:27:00,527
Speaker 3: seems to be doing is nagging her, right, because the

536
00:27:00,767 --> 00:27:02,607
Speaker 3: subtext of this is that she's in love with him,

537
00:27:02,647 --> 00:27:06,047
Speaker 3: but he's like, no, men can't be friends with women

538
00:27:06,047 --> 00:27:06,567
Speaker 3: that they're.

539
00:27:06,527 --> 00:27:10,087
Speaker 2: Actually attracted to. She's just like, oh, so.

540
00:27:10,007 --> 00:27:13,687
Speaker 3: She's kind of waiting for him to realize that he's

541
00:27:13,727 --> 00:27:14,327
Speaker 3: in love with her.

542
00:27:14,447 --> 00:27:16,087
Speaker 2: No, that's my memory it sort of.

543
00:27:16,207 --> 00:27:19,127
Speaker 1: But at this point in the movie, they're both friends,

544
00:27:19,367 --> 00:27:19,807
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

545
00:27:19,887 --> 00:27:21,367
Speaker 2: Right, So they are just friends. Okay.

546
00:27:21,887 --> 00:27:25,327
Speaker 3: So I think it's a very manipulative thing to do

547
00:27:25,687 --> 00:27:30,487
Speaker 3: to call someone high maintenance and to really make it

548
00:27:30,527 --> 00:27:34,087
Speaker 3: apparent that being low maintenance is the ideal for men,

549
00:27:34,207 --> 00:27:37,127
Speaker 3: right or for you, because then that's encouraging women to

550
00:27:37,247 --> 00:27:39,887
Speaker 3: not say what they want, not be assertive, not speak

551
00:27:39,887 --> 00:27:43,007
Speaker 3: their mind, just be very very passive and pleasing and

552
00:27:43,127 --> 00:27:45,287
Speaker 3: be like a cool girl or a pickmy girl.

553
00:27:45,407 --> 00:27:45,607
Speaker 1: Right.

554
00:27:45,887 --> 00:27:47,687
Speaker 2: But then when he does give that.

555
00:27:47,687 --> 00:27:52,287
Speaker 3: Example of how she orders food in a restaurant, you're like, oh, yeah,

556
00:27:52,327 --> 00:27:53,007
Speaker 3: that's punished.

557
00:27:53,167 --> 00:27:54,207
Speaker 1: She's high maintenance.

558
00:27:54,807 --> 00:27:56,487
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm conflicted.

559
00:27:56,607 --> 00:27:58,647
Speaker 4: There's a except in the article where it says it

560
00:27:58,687 --> 00:28:01,607
Speaker 4: serves as an indictment of women who want it neatly

561
00:28:01,647 --> 00:28:04,247
Speaker 4: captures the absurdity of a culture that, in one breath

562
00:28:04,287 --> 00:28:07,207
Speaker 4: demands women do everything they can to maintain themselves, and

563
00:28:07,247 --> 00:28:10,047
Speaker 4: in the next mocks them for making the effort. She

564
00:28:10,087 --> 00:28:13,167
Speaker 4: wears makeup high maintenance, she shops high maintenance, she'd prefer

565
00:28:13,207 --> 00:28:14,687
Speaker 4: the turkey burger, high maintenance.

566
00:28:14,687 --> 00:28:17,527
Speaker 2: But he wasn't saying that. That's where I'm like if

567
00:28:17,567 --> 00:28:18,967
Speaker 2: he was like that, because I agree with you.

568
00:28:19,047 --> 00:28:23,087
Speaker 3: Oh you're high maintenance, you like things, You're not a doormat. Basically,

569
00:28:23,527 --> 00:28:25,847
Speaker 3: it's a moment of comedy when she's in the restaurant

570
00:28:25,847 --> 00:28:28,047
Speaker 3: and she every time she orders, you see the server,

571
00:28:28,167 --> 00:28:29,887
Speaker 3: and anyone who's been a way to knows this where

572
00:28:29,887 --> 00:28:31,447
Speaker 3: you're just like, oh my god, can it's not a

573
00:28:31,447 --> 00:28:32,687
Speaker 3: glass of water and a piece of toast.

574
00:28:32,767 --> 00:28:35,487
Speaker 4: But this term, and this is what's argued in this article,

575
00:28:35,807 --> 00:28:40,287
Speaker 4: was popularized and thrusted into the culture by this movie

576
00:28:40,767 --> 00:28:43,207
Speaker 4: is now used all of the time. It's really interesting.

577
00:28:43,287 --> 00:28:45,807
Speaker 4: It's like, I'm pretty sure the term double dipping is

578
00:28:45,847 --> 00:28:48,927
Speaker 4: like a Seinfeld quote. It's like, all of these concepts

579
00:28:49,087 --> 00:28:51,967
Speaker 4: that we use are really from movies. So what's the

580
00:28:52,007 --> 00:28:58,007
Speaker 4: responsibility for movies not to present a sexist or a

581
00:28:58,327 --> 00:29:01,887
Speaker 4: limiting view of women that's then used all the time.

582
00:29:01,927 --> 00:29:04,487
Speaker 4: So there was an article in The Conversation a few

583
00:29:04,527 --> 00:29:08,247
Speaker 4: years ago where an academic spoke to people her on

584
00:29:08,367 --> 00:29:10,727
Speaker 4: dating apps and said, how do you want to present

585
00:29:10,807 --> 00:29:12,607
Speaker 4: and what do you want from a woman? And high

586
00:29:12,687 --> 00:29:15,807
Speaker 4: maintenance was like the first term that women were like,

587
00:29:16,047 --> 00:29:18,207
Speaker 4: I do not want to appear high maintenance. I have

588
00:29:18,247 --> 00:29:22,127
Speaker 4: to look relaxed, like I don't need too much, and

589
00:29:22,167 --> 00:29:24,207
Speaker 4: I do that by making sure that I'm not dressed

590
00:29:24,287 --> 00:29:26,367
Speaker 4: up in all of my images and that I don't

591
00:29:26,847 --> 00:29:29,087
Speaker 4: sort of intimidate any man.

592
00:29:28,887 --> 00:29:30,727
Speaker 2: Because it's I've got to look effortless.

593
00:29:30,767 --> 00:29:32,847
Speaker 3: I've got to seem like I have no wants, I

594
00:29:32,967 --> 00:29:35,727
Speaker 3: make no demands, and I wake up like this.

595
00:29:35,847 --> 00:29:37,887
Speaker 2: You know that, Beyonce, I wake up like this.

596
00:29:38,047 --> 00:29:40,647
Speaker 1: But I don't think the very fact that you just said,

597
00:29:40,767 --> 00:29:44,727
Speaker 1: what is a movie's responsibility to not write words that

598
00:29:44,767 --> 00:29:48,167
Speaker 1: then go into the culture and maybe occasionally used to

599
00:29:48,207 --> 00:29:52,927
Speaker 1: criticize a woman is ridiculous. The thing about this, I

600
00:29:52,967 --> 00:29:55,047
Speaker 1: get all the things you've just said about cool girls

601
00:29:55,047 --> 00:29:57,487
Speaker 1: and effortlessness, and that's all true, But this scene is

602
00:29:57,527 --> 00:29:59,807
Speaker 1: actually two people who know each other very well taking

603
00:29:59,847 --> 00:30:00,767
Speaker 1: the piss out of each other.

604
00:30:00,847 --> 00:30:02,687
Speaker 2: Right, He is right.

605
00:30:03,247 --> 00:30:06,487
Speaker 1: She is high maintenance pretending she's low maintenance. I am

606
00:30:06,607 --> 00:30:09,527
Speaker 1: high maintenance pretending I'm low maintenance. It's ok I hate

607
00:30:09,527 --> 00:30:11,807
Speaker 1: to criticize a woman sometimes and call her out for

608
00:30:11,847 --> 00:30:15,247
Speaker 1: a bullshit in an affectionate way, like are we saying

609
00:30:15,287 --> 00:30:17,647
Speaker 1: that that is something that we should never do?

610
00:30:17,807 --> 00:30:20,367
Speaker 4: Well, That's why I think that in this context it's

611
00:30:20,447 --> 00:30:24,567
Speaker 4: not so much of an insult, because the conclusion is

612
00:30:24,567 --> 00:30:27,567
Speaker 4: that he loves, he loves, he loves everything about her.

613
00:30:27,607 --> 00:30:30,247
Speaker 1: But they get like spoilers for the people who have

614
00:30:30,287 --> 00:30:33,527
Speaker 1: not lived their lives properly. They get married and she

615
00:30:33,727 --> 00:30:36,247
Speaker 1: has her chocolate sauce on the side at their wedding,

616
00:30:36,447 --> 00:30:39,327
Speaker 1: and it's okay. Like you could look at this in

617
00:30:39,367 --> 00:30:42,047
Speaker 1: a totally different way, which is that high maintenance isn't

618
00:30:42,087 --> 00:30:43,327
Speaker 1: an insult, you know.

619
00:30:43,767 --> 00:30:45,887
Speaker 3: I think, I think actually that the point of what

620
00:30:45,967 --> 00:30:48,727
Speaker 3: he's saying is not even so much about I'm going

621
00:30:48,807 --> 00:30:50,607
Speaker 3: to go back on what I said now, Not so

622
00:30:50,687 --> 00:30:53,807
Speaker 3: much about how high maintenance is bad and low maintenance

623
00:30:53,847 --> 00:30:56,407
Speaker 3: is good, although that kind of is the subject. It's

624
00:30:56,487 --> 00:31:00,527
Speaker 3: more how we all don't have a very accurate perception

625
00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:04,327
Speaker 3: of ourselves. Yes, because and I think that's the funny part.

626
00:31:04,447 --> 00:31:07,247
Speaker 3: And that's the part. I mean, there's nothing better than

627
00:31:07,487 --> 00:31:10,647
Speaker 3: when someone really knows you, yes, for Australian can gently

628
00:31:10,767 --> 00:31:14,127
Speaker 3: take the piss out of you and point out back

629
00:31:14,167 --> 00:31:18,687
Speaker 3: to segment one, your hypocrisy in you think you're this,

630
00:31:19,087 --> 00:31:20,367
Speaker 3: but actually.

631
00:31:20,407 --> 00:31:23,167
Speaker 2: You're not this. And I think that's the funniness is

632
00:31:23,207 --> 00:31:23,887
Speaker 2: in the gap.

633
00:31:24,367 --> 00:31:27,767
Speaker 1: So I think it's only a sexist insult that Harry

634
00:31:27,767 --> 00:31:30,087
Speaker 1: and met Sally should do time for. And let's remember

635
00:31:30,087 --> 00:31:32,447
Speaker 1: that when Harry Metsali was written by a woman nor

636
00:31:32,487 --> 00:31:35,847
Speaker 1: A Efron, one of the greatest writers ever. The idea

637
00:31:35,887 --> 00:31:38,207
Speaker 1: that they should somehow play penance for that is only

638
00:31:38,247 --> 00:31:42,447
Speaker 1: if you accept that ever saying anything slightly negative about

639
00:31:42,447 --> 00:31:43,807
Speaker 1: a woman as sexist.

640
00:31:43,727 --> 00:31:46,567
Speaker 4: And the reason it has such purchase is because there's

641
00:31:46,567 --> 00:31:47,967
Speaker 4: a grain of truth yet to it.

642
00:31:48,167 --> 00:31:49,367
Speaker 2: Jesse, you're the smart one.

643
00:31:49,447 --> 00:31:52,247
Speaker 3: What is the word for when you look back at

644
00:31:52,247 --> 00:31:55,727
Speaker 3: something using today's standard anachronistic?

645
00:31:56,047 --> 00:31:58,727
Speaker 2: Anachronistic? I find it interesting.

646
00:31:59,527 --> 00:32:01,767
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't help really but be anachronistic when

647
00:32:01,767 --> 00:32:04,767
Speaker 3: you're watching things. But I'm not in the camp of

648
00:32:04,887 --> 00:32:09,567
Speaker 3: canceling things that represented the standards of their time. And

649
00:32:09,767 --> 00:32:11,807
Speaker 3: I know this isn't an example of that, but but

650
00:32:11,887 --> 00:32:13,247
Speaker 3: we're looking back and over analyze.

651
00:32:13,287 --> 00:32:15,727
Speaker 4: Well, we expect art to be above the culture rather

652
00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:17,487
Speaker 4: than a product of it. So there are a lot

653
00:32:17,487 --> 00:32:18,367
Speaker 4: of terms, like.

654
00:32:18,287 --> 00:32:20,247
Speaker 2: The terms what does that mean? Explain that?

655
00:32:20,367 --> 00:32:23,687
Speaker 4: Well, what do we expect it to be didactic and

656
00:32:23,767 --> 00:32:26,407
Speaker 4: to present an essay on the criticisms of our time?

657
00:32:26,567 --> 00:32:29,007
Speaker 4: Or do we expect people to talk like people and

658
00:32:29,087 --> 00:32:34,527
Speaker 4: reflect back the shortcomings, the contradictions, the cliches, the stereotyping.

659
00:32:35,127 --> 00:32:38,887
Speaker 4: For example, the term cankles was shallow how that was,

660
00:32:38,967 --> 00:32:41,767
Speaker 4: and I've always referred to myself as having cankles because

661
00:32:41,807 --> 00:32:44,207
Speaker 4: that was something that was popularized in.

662
00:32:44,287 --> 00:32:51,287
Speaker 3: Adul I'm sorry now, but cankles don't have to be

663
00:32:51,287 --> 00:32:51,727
Speaker 3: an insult.

664
00:32:51,807 --> 00:32:52,807
Speaker 2: They're just a description.

665
00:32:53,127 --> 00:32:55,487
Speaker 4: I don't think anyone's ever been like, I love my cankles.

666
00:32:55,567 --> 00:32:57,407
Speaker 4: Milf was American partner.

667
00:32:57,607 --> 00:32:58,887
Speaker 2: Well that's a compliment, isn't it.

668
00:32:59,727 --> 00:33:07,007
Speaker 4: I think that it was probably sexually objectifying a particular mom.

669
00:33:07,727 --> 00:33:11,807
Speaker 4: Then of course it was cool girl in Girl a Mona.

670
00:33:11,967 --> 00:33:14,047
Speaker 4: Do you remember this? In Clueless they said you're a money.

671
00:33:14,167 --> 00:33:15,447
Speaker 4: You're attractive from.

672
00:33:15,367 --> 00:33:18,567
Speaker 1: Far away, but I'm closer to as And this is

673
00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:22,687
Speaker 1: just very good writers. If you can write enter the lexicon.

674
00:33:22,847 --> 00:33:25,207
Speaker 1: There are lots of examples that aren't problematic too. But

675
00:33:25,447 --> 00:33:27,527
Speaker 1: if you're a good enough writer that you can write

676
00:33:27,607 --> 00:33:29,887
Speaker 1: terms that then go off into the world and live

677
00:33:29,927 --> 00:33:31,647
Speaker 1: another life, then you're a very good writer.

678
00:33:32,007 --> 00:33:34,527
Speaker 4: Like Shakespeare. Most of what we say of Shakespeare.

679
00:33:34,127 --> 00:33:37,367
Speaker 3: Makes me think of that Onion headline about woman wants

680
00:33:37,407 --> 00:33:40,007
Speaker 3: to park feminism for an hour just so she can

681
00:33:40,207 --> 00:33:44,847
Speaker 3: enjoy a TV show. After the break, everyone's accusing Sidney Sweeney,

682
00:33:44,967 --> 00:33:45,887
Speaker 3: the actress, of.

683
00:33:45,807 --> 00:33:46,967
Speaker 2: Being a catfish.

684
00:33:47,247 --> 00:33:49,727
Speaker 3: So is she or have men just forgotten what women

685
00:33:49,767 --> 00:33:57,207
Speaker 3: look like? A series of bikini photos taken by a

686
00:33:57,247 --> 00:34:01,367
Speaker 3: paparazzi with a long lens camera of Sydney Sweeney who

687
00:34:01,407 --> 00:34:03,687
Speaker 3: is an actress in the garden of her own home

688
00:34:03,847 --> 00:34:08,807
Speaker 3: this week, have appeared online and instead of debating the

689
00:34:08,847 --> 00:34:12,567
Speaker 3: absence sale outrage of a strange person with a long

690
00:34:12,647 --> 00:34:15,727
Speaker 3: lens camera capturing photos of someone on their private property

691
00:34:15,727 --> 00:34:17,327
Speaker 3: in a private moment, I thought we'd.

692
00:34:17,207 --> 00:34:18,527
Speaker 4: Have fun with that. I was going to defend it.

693
00:34:18,647 --> 00:34:19,167
Speaker 2: That's a joke.

694
00:34:19,207 --> 00:34:19,567
Speaker 1: I wasn't.

695
00:34:19,847 --> 00:34:24,247
Speaker 3: The actual thing that's happened is that online trolls who

696
00:34:24,247 --> 00:34:27,167
Speaker 3: are men have decided that she's not as hot as

697
00:34:27,367 --> 00:34:30,367
Speaker 3: they thought she was, or indeed that she should be.

698
00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:30,927
Speaker 1: Now.

699
00:34:30,967 --> 00:34:32,567
Speaker 2: I wasn't aware of this story.

700
00:34:32,967 --> 00:34:35,287
Speaker 3: As I said, Sidney Sweeney is a twenty seven year

701
00:34:35,287 --> 00:34:38,407
Speaker 3: old American actress who has been in movies like Anyone

702
00:34:38,407 --> 00:34:41,287
Speaker 3: but You with Glenn Powell once upon a time in Hollywood.

703
00:34:41,327 --> 00:34:43,967
Speaker 3: She was also in Euphoria and The White and the

704
00:34:43,967 --> 00:34:46,967
Speaker 3: White Loatus. Of course, that's what she's probably best known for.

705
00:34:47,607 --> 00:34:49,887
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of this story until I saw her

706
00:34:50,007 --> 00:34:55,047
Speaker 3: post this video of screenshots of comments that had been

707
00:34:55,087 --> 00:35:00,247
Speaker 3: made by men online, such as she knocked up, stung

708
00:35:00,287 --> 00:35:02,687
Speaker 3: by a nest of wasps, dive into a swimming pool

709
00:35:02,687 --> 00:35:06,167
Speaker 3: full of doughnuts and chips. Good grief, man, and another

710
00:35:06,287 --> 00:35:09,847
Speaker 3: charming person saying without artifice, make up, filter and photoshop,

711
00:35:10,087 --> 00:35:13,807
Speaker 3: she is really ugly. Now to describe this photo for you,

712
00:35:13,927 --> 00:35:16,207
Speaker 3: because I wouldn't encourage anyone to go and support the

713
00:35:16,207 --> 00:35:19,527
Speaker 3: paparazzi economy by clicking on it. It's a picture of

714
00:35:19,687 --> 00:35:24,127
Speaker 3: Sydney in either a bikini or bra and underes I

715
00:35:24,247 --> 00:35:25,367
Speaker 3: have to describe how she looks.

716
00:35:25,367 --> 00:35:26,647
Speaker 2: She looks incredibly fit. To me.

717
00:35:26,807 --> 00:35:30,487
Speaker 3: She's actually currently training to play a woman called Christy

718
00:35:30,527 --> 00:35:33,767
Speaker 3: Martin in a movie about the Christie who is a

719
00:35:33,807 --> 00:35:38,967
Speaker 3: professional boxer. So after publishing these screenshots of these comments,

720
00:35:39,207 --> 00:35:41,487
Speaker 3: she then published a whole lot of videos of her

721
00:35:41,807 --> 00:35:44,527
Speaker 3: boxing and training and working out in the gym, and

722
00:35:44,567 --> 00:35:48,927
Speaker 3: she captioned at Christy Martin strong, Oh what shocked me

723
00:35:48,967 --> 00:35:51,807
Speaker 3: about this is? I mean, it's not new people commenting

724
00:35:51,807 --> 00:35:54,167
Speaker 3: on women's bodies, and often, let's be honest, it's often

725
00:35:54,207 --> 00:35:56,767
Speaker 3: women commenting on other women's bodies. But there was a

726
00:35:56,807 --> 00:36:02,087
Speaker 3: particular toxicity and almost anger in a lot of the

727
00:36:02,127 --> 00:36:06,087
Speaker 3: comments from men, and it could be categorized by the

728
00:36:06,207 --> 00:36:09,287
Speaker 3: term catfish and by that they basically were saying. So

729
00:36:09,447 --> 00:36:12,247
Speaker 3: posting photos of this photo next to photos of her

730
00:36:12,727 --> 00:36:16,327
Speaker 3: on a red carpet where she's wearing literal gowns and

731
00:36:16,487 --> 00:36:19,807
Speaker 3: is posing and has spent hours having hair and makeup.

732
00:36:19,967 --> 00:36:22,247
Speaker 3: My question is, and it was one that was asked

733
00:36:22,247 --> 00:36:25,887
Speaker 3: by Muma MIAs Tara Watson on the site this week, Jesse,

734
00:36:26,047 --> 00:36:28,407
Speaker 3: do men know what women look like anymore?

735
00:36:29,047 --> 00:36:32,047
Speaker 4: Some men don't. I don't think people's reaction. I just went,

736
00:36:32,767 --> 00:36:35,247
Speaker 4: I don't think you've spent an extended period of time

737
00:36:35,287 --> 00:36:37,047
Speaker 4: with a woman, with a real woman, with a real

738
00:36:37,127 --> 00:36:43,127
Speaker 4: woman who might look different when she goes to work,

739
00:36:43,167 --> 00:36:45,607
Speaker 4: to what she looks like on a Sunday morning, who

740
00:36:45,687 --> 00:36:48,927
Speaker 4: might sometimes have to go to work events, which for

741
00:36:49,167 --> 00:36:51,967
Speaker 4: Sidney Sweeney are awards nights where I'm sure she has

742
00:36:52,007 --> 00:36:54,727
Speaker 4: a ten effect eyelashes and her head done and her

743
00:36:54,767 --> 00:36:58,247
Speaker 4: makeup professionally done. I thought we all knew that that

744
00:36:58,647 --> 00:37:02,247
Speaker 4: was part of, you know, what women do in order

745
00:37:02,287 --> 00:37:05,727
Speaker 4: to go to those sorts of events. These images actually

746
00:37:05,727 --> 00:37:08,367
Speaker 4: popped up on some feed like on my Instagram or

747
00:37:08,407 --> 00:37:13,007
Speaker 4: TikTok or something, and which HYPERAZZI yeah, which was really

748
00:37:13,047 --> 00:37:15,447
Speaker 4: annoying because I wouldn't have clicked on it. And I

749
00:37:15,567 --> 00:37:17,567
Speaker 4: noticed that she was bending over in one of them,

750
00:37:17,927 --> 00:37:22,207
Speaker 4: like you could literally see her nipple. It was so invasive,

751
00:37:22,367 --> 00:37:25,327
Speaker 4: and the irony of the Daily Mail going with the

752
00:37:25,367 --> 00:37:29,767
Speaker 4: headline shows off incredible bikini bodies, which I was like,

753
00:37:30,287 --> 00:37:34,367
Speaker 4: she is in her private Florida home, thinking that no

754
00:37:34,367 --> 00:37:36,567
Speaker 4: one's watching her. And what this says is, even when

755
00:37:36,647 --> 00:37:39,967
Speaker 4: you are in your home, even when you think that

756
00:37:40,167 --> 00:37:43,407
Speaker 4: no one is around, you better still be upholding these

757
00:37:43,487 --> 00:37:47,767
Speaker 4: ridiculous beauty standards because we are always watching. And the

758
00:37:47,847 --> 00:37:54,087
Speaker 4: catfishing term, I think speaks to how some men, or

759
00:37:54,127 --> 00:37:56,447
Speaker 4: the patriarchy, or however we want to talk about it,

760
00:37:56,847 --> 00:38:01,087
Speaker 4: see women as inherently deceptive. We're trying to trick them

761
00:38:01,127 --> 00:38:03,287
Speaker 4: into loving us, and then we're going to take off

762
00:38:03,287 --> 00:38:08,647
Speaker 4: our mask. And I kept thinking about the women watching

763
00:38:08,647 --> 00:38:14,247
Speaker 4: this story. Ninety eight percent of women who would have

764
00:38:14,327 --> 00:38:16,847
Speaker 4: a larger body than Sydney Sweeney, who would not fit

765
00:38:16,887 --> 00:38:19,767
Speaker 4: the beauty ideal, who do not have that shape and

766
00:38:19,767 --> 00:38:22,487
Speaker 4: are not traditionally attractive to the male gaze or whatever

767
00:38:22,527 --> 00:38:22,767
Speaker 4: it is.

768
00:38:22,807 --> 00:38:25,607
Speaker 3: I mean to be clear, Sydney Sweeney, these shots that

769
00:38:25,607 --> 00:38:29,127
Speaker 3: they're criticizing is most of us on our very best

770
00:38:29,207 --> 00:38:30,087
Speaker 3: red carpet day.

771
00:38:30,207 --> 00:38:30,567
Speaker 2: Yeah.

772
00:38:30,607 --> 00:38:32,487
Speaker 4: So what this is saying, it's sending a message to

773
00:38:32,607 --> 00:38:36,367
Speaker 4: all women that even this isn't enough. And remember they

774
00:38:36,407 --> 00:38:38,647
Speaker 4: did this to Margo Robbie when she was Barbie.

775
00:38:38,687 --> 00:38:40,647
Speaker 2: It was sort of like a mid.

776
00:38:40,447 --> 00:38:44,007
Speaker 4: This demographic of men would go, I don't even think

777
00:38:44,007 --> 00:38:46,967
Speaker 4: you're hot. Maybe it's the only power they feel they

778
00:38:46,967 --> 00:38:51,207
Speaker 4: have for some of these women, maybe capture public attention

779
00:38:51,407 --> 00:38:54,887
Speaker 4: like that, but it's going, your only power is that

780
00:38:54,927 --> 00:38:57,487
Speaker 4: you're attractive, and guess what I'm going to say, you're ugly.

781
00:38:57,727 --> 00:39:00,167
Speaker 4: It's just the most bizarre thing. Holly, what did you

782
00:39:00,447 --> 00:39:01,007
Speaker 4: make of this?

783
00:39:01,367 --> 00:39:04,367
Speaker 1: There were two things. One is that's absolutely right, and

784
00:39:04,407 --> 00:39:06,727
Speaker 1: I think it's also a little bit particular to the

785
00:39:06,767 --> 00:39:11,727
Speaker 1: Sydney Sweeneys of the Zeke, because I think that if

786
00:39:11,767 --> 00:39:16,167
Speaker 1: you are a really conventionally attractive woman, as Sidney Sweeney is,

787
00:39:16,287 --> 00:39:18,767
Speaker 1: as in that she is white, blonde, big blue eyes,

788
00:39:18,807 --> 00:39:22,567
Speaker 1: big boobs, her body is so objectified and fetishized on

789
00:39:22,607 --> 00:39:26,247
Speaker 1: the internet all the time people talk about her breasts

790
00:39:26,287 --> 00:39:29,087
Speaker 1: in a way that I've just I thought it was done,

791
00:39:29,127 --> 00:39:31,287
Speaker 1: but it's clearly not done. And sometimes she's done on

792
00:39:31,327 --> 00:39:33,287
Speaker 1: the joke, and she'll make jokes about that too, and

793
00:39:33,327 --> 00:39:36,847
Speaker 1: she'll post cheeky imagery of herself kind of almost taking

794
00:39:36,847 --> 00:39:39,207
Speaker 1: the piss out of that. But I think if you've

795
00:39:39,247 --> 00:39:42,367
Speaker 1: got that look which Margot Robbie has, which Heather Graham

796
00:39:42,407 --> 00:39:44,927
Speaker 1: had back in the day, which Amanda Seafried had back

797
00:39:44,927 --> 00:39:47,807
Speaker 1: in the day, it's like a certain portion of in

798
00:39:48,007 --> 00:39:52,287
Speaker 1: Selly culture really really wants to go for you, because

799
00:39:52,327 --> 00:39:57,687
Speaker 1: I wonder if they remind them in a very primal way,

800
00:39:57,887 --> 00:40:01,607
Speaker 1: whether it's literally or metaphorically, of the hot girl at

801
00:40:01,647 --> 00:40:05,207
Speaker 1: school who wouldn't talk to them, And it's like there's

802
00:40:05,247 --> 00:40:08,767
Speaker 1: a certain level of vitriol set aside for women who

803
00:40:08,807 --> 00:40:12,407
Speaker 1: look that kind of hot, and I think that Sydney

804
00:40:12,447 --> 00:40:15,087
Speaker 1: Sweeney is very much the victim of that. The other

805
00:40:15,167 --> 00:40:17,607
Speaker 1: thing I thought about because the first I saw of

806
00:40:17,647 --> 00:40:20,527
Speaker 1: this was actually her response video, so as Mia read

807
00:40:20,527 --> 00:40:22,887
Speaker 1: out a couple of those comments, the video is quite long,

808
00:40:22,927 --> 00:40:24,807
Speaker 1: and the first half of it is lots and lots

809
00:40:24,807 --> 00:40:27,487
Speaker 1: of those comments set to music, and the second half

810
00:40:27,527 --> 00:40:29,527
Speaker 1: of it is lots and lots of her working out

811
00:40:29,607 --> 00:40:32,607
Speaker 1: set to music. And she is working out, as Mia said,

812
00:40:32,607 --> 00:40:35,007
Speaker 1: to be a boxer, like in a very intense way,

813
00:40:35,087 --> 00:40:38,407
Speaker 1: like not working out in a sort of Kardashian I

814
00:40:38,447 --> 00:40:41,167
Speaker 1: want to revenge body kind of way. She's working out

815
00:40:41,167 --> 00:40:45,327
Speaker 1: in that I could kick any of these guys' asses

816
00:40:45,367 --> 00:40:48,047
Speaker 1: if I wanted to. And at first I thought, oh,

817
00:40:48,087 --> 00:40:52,687
Speaker 1: I wonder why she did that, because is it giving

818
00:40:52,767 --> 00:40:58,207
Speaker 1: these men too much power to take the time to

819
00:40:58,287 --> 00:41:01,087
Speaker 1: respond to them like that, to highlight and republish. What

820
00:41:01,127 --> 00:41:02,007
Speaker 1: do you think about that?

821
00:41:02,007 --> 00:41:05,127
Speaker 3: That was my first I actually think it's sadder than that.

822
00:41:05,487 --> 00:41:08,887
Speaker 3: I think it's justification. It's saying I look like this

823
00:41:08,967 --> 00:41:12,927
Speaker 3: big because I am training for a movie. This is

824
00:41:12,967 --> 00:41:16,887
Speaker 3: not actually who I am. It's actually a choice. I'm

825
00:41:16,887 --> 00:41:19,207
Speaker 3: making a deliberate choice to look like this.

826
00:41:19,567 --> 00:41:21,287
Speaker 2: It's not not a little and fragile.

827
00:41:21,607 --> 00:41:25,007
Speaker 3: No, No, it's more I've not let myself go in

828
00:41:25,087 --> 00:41:28,967
Speaker 3: quote marks as these men are suggesting. I'm not actually

829
00:41:29,447 --> 00:41:32,167
Speaker 3: deceiving anyone by being one way on a red carpet.

830
00:41:32,447 --> 00:41:36,927
Speaker 3: I'm deliberately changing my body for a movie. So I

831
00:41:36,967 --> 00:41:41,047
Speaker 3: think it's almost a disclaimer. And that made me feel sad.

832
00:41:41,367 --> 00:41:43,727
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I was conflicted about how I felt about

833
00:41:43,767 --> 00:41:46,167
Speaker 1: her response, because of course she has every right to respond,

834
00:41:46,247 --> 00:41:49,807
Speaker 1: and the conventional wisdom would be ignore them. They're just

835
00:41:49,847 --> 00:41:52,407
Speaker 1: guys in basements. Who gives a shit what they say? Blah,

836
00:41:52,407 --> 00:41:56,407
Speaker 1: blah blah. But as I say, she does cop an

837
00:41:56,607 --> 00:41:59,727
Speaker 1: enormous amount of this kind of criticism about her body,

838
00:41:59,767 --> 00:42:02,607
Speaker 1: which people seem to feel ownership over, and so I

839
00:42:02,727 --> 00:42:06,007
Speaker 1: respect her response. But I found that a really interesting

840
00:42:06,127 --> 00:42:06,807
Speaker 1: choice is she.

841
00:42:06,927 --> 00:42:13,167
Speaker 4: Saying, I I am strong and I feel powerful and

842
00:42:13,247 --> 00:42:15,647
Speaker 4: I love my body, and far off.

843
00:42:15,847 --> 00:42:18,247
Speaker 1: Hope, so I think, so I hope.

844
00:42:18,327 --> 00:42:21,367
Speaker 4: So it did remind me though of I remember being

845
00:42:21,407 --> 00:42:24,527
Speaker 4: about eighteen and I had a boyfriend at the time,

846
00:42:24,887 --> 00:42:28,767
Speaker 4: and when I saw him, I would have fake tan,

847
00:42:29,247 --> 00:42:33,327
Speaker 4: make up, hair done, clothes or sorted out. And then

848
00:42:33,367 --> 00:42:35,607
Speaker 4: I went away with my family and I came home

849
00:42:35,807 --> 00:42:38,607
Speaker 4: and he surprised me by coming to my front door

850
00:42:38,647 --> 00:42:40,807
Speaker 4: and I answered the door and I had no fake

851
00:42:40,847 --> 00:42:42,527
Speaker 4: tan on, and I had no makeup on, and I

852
00:42:42,527 --> 00:42:47,487
Speaker 4: didn't have my hair done, and I felt like I

853
00:42:47,647 --> 00:42:50,447
Speaker 4: was in a nightmare. I remember feeling as though I

854
00:42:50,527 --> 00:42:54,087
Speaker 4: had turned up to school naked and I was being

855
00:42:54,207 --> 00:42:55,887
Speaker 4: seen and I couldn't look him in the eye. I

856
00:42:55,967 --> 00:42:59,727
Speaker 4: was so horrified. It was like shame and guilt and embarrassment,

857
00:42:59,967 --> 00:43:02,287
Speaker 4: and just like I wanted to crawl in a hole

858
00:43:02,327 --> 00:43:04,207
Speaker 4: and die because I was like, this is not the

859
00:43:04,327 --> 00:43:09,007
Speaker 4: me that's for you like I put on a performance

860
00:43:09,047 --> 00:43:10,087
Speaker 4: fee you, but.

861
00:43:10,047 --> 00:43:13,847
Speaker 3: That must have been exhausting, like the gap between who

862
00:43:13,887 --> 00:43:15,927
Speaker 3: you were performing as yeah, you actually.

863
00:43:16,167 --> 00:43:18,087
Speaker 4: And I think it's about control as well, that I

864
00:43:18,087 --> 00:43:20,167
Speaker 4: felt like I was in control and I felt as

865
00:43:20,167 --> 00:43:22,887
Speaker 4: though I could be this person and it took a

866
00:43:22,927 --> 00:43:25,047
Speaker 4: lot of years to undo that. But when I saw

867
00:43:25,087 --> 00:43:29,607
Speaker 4: these images, I saw myself at eighteen, and the incredible

868
00:43:30,367 --> 00:43:34,607
Speaker 4: difference between those two images that I.

869
00:43:33,887 --> 00:43:34,847
Speaker 2: How did you react?

870
00:43:35,607 --> 00:43:38,047
Speaker 4: I don't think he could, Like he probably didn't even know.

871
00:43:38,127 --> 00:43:38,887
Speaker 1: I don't think he.

872
00:43:38,847 --> 00:43:41,647
Speaker 4: Even noticed, to be honest, and I honestly thought in

873
00:43:41,687 --> 00:43:44,527
Speaker 4: my heart, I thought, oh, he's gonna dump me, like

874
00:43:44,607 --> 00:43:46,127
Speaker 4: now that he's seen this. But I think what that

875
00:43:46,167 --> 00:43:49,287
Speaker 4: speaks to is at that age, I knew that that

876
00:43:49,567 --> 00:43:53,447
Speaker 4: boy had not seen girls like me in all of

877
00:43:53,447 --> 00:43:56,967
Speaker 4: their different forms and porn and yeah, so I was like, Oh,

878
00:43:57,047 --> 00:43:59,607
Speaker 4: he just sees he's only ever seen his girlfriend on

879
00:43:59,647 --> 00:44:02,847
Speaker 4: the weekend, Whereas now, as someone who's nearly thirty four,

880
00:44:03,687 --> 00:44:06,007
Speaker 4: like I would assume that most men know what women

881
00:44:06,087 --> 00:44:08,287
Speaker 4: look like without makeup, and that they know what they

882
00:44:08,287 --> 00:44:10,127
Speaker 4: look like when they get out of the shower or whatever.

883
00:44:10,447 --> 00:44:13,207
Speaker 4: But then I just remember being like I've got to

884
00:44:13,247 --> 00:44:15,607
Speaker 4: look good from every angle and did it. And it's

885
00:44:15,607 --> 00:44:19,047
Speaker 4: also about how we value ourselves. But I saw that

886
00:44:19,247 --> 00:44:20,887
Speaker 4: in the Sydney Sweeney example.

887
00:44:20,967 --> 00:44:22,847
Speaker 1: Do you think that that played into why she felt

888
00:44:22,847 --> 00:44:25,487
Speaker 1: the need to respond to it? When I found myself going,

889
00:44:25,487 --> 00:44:28,727
Speaker 1: why has she highlighted all these idiots opinions about her?

890
00:44:28,887 --> 00:44:32,207
Speaker 1: And then I thought, also, maybe it's important to put

891
00:44:32,207 --> 00:44:34,087
Speaker 1: it out that this is what I'm dealing with. Do

892
00:44:34,127 --> 00:44:34,727
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

893
00:44:34,847 --> 00:44:34,967
Speaker 3: Right?

894
00:44:35,407 --> 00:44:38,087
Speaker 1: Because if you're not down there in the swamp of

895
00:44:38,487 --> 00:44:41,767
Speaker 1: X or whatever these guys live, we don't know that

896
00:44:41,767 --> 00:44:44,327
Speaker 1: that's what the beautiful women of the world are putting

897
00:44:44,407 --> 00:44:46,767
Speaker 1: up with, Like, yeah, we look at Sydney Sweeney and

898
00:44:46,807 --> 00:44:49,287
Speaker 1: you go, you know, must be nice.

899
00:44:49,367 --> 00:44:51,447
Speaker 4: The other thing she did that's worth noting is that

900
00:44:51,527 --> 00:44:55,407
Speaker 4: all of those comments were either their real names or

901
00:44:55,527 --> 00:44:58,287
Speaker 4: use a name, or she outed a lot of men,

902
00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,927
Speaker 4: which was a power move to go, I'm not hiding

903
00:45:01,927 --> 00:45:04,287
Speaker 4: any of this. And she doesn't normally respond, and she's

904
00:45:04,287 --> 00:45:07,207
Speaker 4: cop shit like this before. She doesn't normally aland but yeah,

905
00:45:07,447 --> 00:45:10,007
Speaker 4: I'm interested in what that was a but it might

906
00:45:10,087 --> 00:45:11,767
Speaker 4: just be like, look at what this body can do.

907
00:45:11,847 --> 00:45:14,647
Speaker 4: You're calling me a this and a that, But look

908
00:45:14,687 --> 00:45:15,647
Speaker 4: at how strong I am.

909
00:45:16,127 --> 00:45:19,607
Speaker 1: Friends, if you haven't already listened to our subscriber episode

910
00:45:19,607 --> 00:45:22,767
Speaker 1: for Yesterday The Brave and Brilliant, and Vernon comes on

911
00:45:22,927 --> 00:45:25,487
Speaker 1: and reads to me the text that she got sent

912
00:45:25,687 --> 00:45:28,487
Speaker 1: last weekend that broke her heart, and the out louders

913
00:45:28,527 --> 00:45:31,007
Speaker 1: who have listened to that have already sent them a

914
00:45:31,167 --> 00:45:33,367
Speaker 1: lot of love. You've got to go and listen to

915
00:45:33,407 --> 00:45:35,487
Speaker 1: it and tell us whether or not you think it's

916
00:45:35,567 --> 00:45:38,247
Speaker 1: okay to break that kind of news by text.

917
00:45:38,527 --> 00:45:40,847
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed getting to know you and hope you

918
00:45:40,927 --> 00:45:42,287
Speaker 4: understand X.

919
00:45:44,367 --> 00:45:46,087
Speaker 1: I just really want to swear a lot.

920
00:45:46,527 --> 00:45:48,367
Speaker 2: Oh, you've been seeing.

921
00:45:48,167 --> 00:45:50,447
Speaker 1: This guy for a few months. Yeah, and he just

922
00:45:50,487 --> 00:45:53,487
Speaker 1: sends you a text on a Sunday morning, yes, telling

923
00:45:53,527 --> 00:45:56,407
Speaker 1: you that it would only be fair to the new

924
00:45:56,447 --> 00:45:59,167
Speaker 1: person he's seeing to focus on that.

925
00:45:59,607 --> 00:45:59,847
Speaker 3: Yes.

926
00:46:01,047 --> 00:46:04,527
Speaker 1: Oh babe, I'm sorry. I hate text messages. I hate

927
00:46:04,527 --> 00:46:06,087
Speaker 1: text that's not appropriate.

928
00:46:06,287 --> 00:46:09,647
Speaker 3: And there's now a long queue of women wanting Holly

929
00:46:09,767 --> 00:46:13,167
Speaker 3: to give them advice about their love lives and be

930
00:46:13,287 --> 00:46:15,567
Speaker 3: in their corner when their heart is broken.

931
00:46:15,767 --> 00:46:18,127
Speaker 1: Oh. I tried not to swear, but I don't think

932
00:46:18,167 --> 00:46:20,807
Speaker 1: I don't think I managed it. A massive thank you

933
00:46:20,927 --> 00:46:23,687
Speaker 1: to all of you out louders for listening to today's show,

934
00:46:24,207 --> 00:46:26,127
Speaker 1: and to our fabulous team for putting it together. I

935
00:46:26,207 --> 00:46:28,407
Speaker 1: know everybody is like going it's.

936
00:46:28,207 --> 00:46:29,407
Speaker 4: Nearly the end of the year.

937
00:46:29,527 --> 00:46:30,727
Speaker 2: We're all a bit wobbly.

938
00:46:31,087 --> 00:46:32,967
Speaker 1: We're still here for you out Louders, and we're going

939
00:46:33,007 --> 00:46:35,167
Speaker 1: to be back in your ears tomorrow and on Friday.

940
00:46:35,367 --> 00:46:38,447
Speaker 4: Bye.