1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: If you think of the pop culture kind of tuxedo 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: wearing traditional spy, I would be the cocktail dress wearing 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,239 Speaker 1: equivalent of that. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 2: My experience is probably a little bit more whiskey tango foxtrot. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: I mean, it's not that bad. 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 4: It's not that bad. 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: Self defense training and physical and personal security awareness training, 8 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: tradecraft training, and that includes training as tell. 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 5: Me Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 5: happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 5: what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 5: but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 5: than one way. So this is a platform to hear 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 5: and explore the stories of those who found lives. 15 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 4: They adore the good, bad and ugly. 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 5: The best and worst days will bear all the facets 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 5: of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 5: of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneurs wapped suits and heels 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 5: to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 4: Cca is a series. 21 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 5: Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 5: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. 23 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 5: I armed an DD over spacing out these two new 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 5: parts of our espionage miniseries, but I just couldn't make 25 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 5: you wait to hear more about Australia's most secret organization 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 5: from a different perspective. In the first part, we were 27 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 5: so lucky to hear from the Director General of the 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 5: Australian Secret Intelligence Service, Kerry Heartland, who I thought had 29 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 5: already maxed out my awestruck, jaw dropping and fangirling for 30 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 5: the week, if not the whole year. However, you might 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 5: remember that she finished off our chat by inviting me 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 5: for the first time in the history of the service 33 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 5: to visit their top secret training facility in an undisclosed location, 34 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 5: which was every bit as mind blowing and cool as 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 5: you would expect. I still can't actually believe that it happened. 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 5: Feels a bit like it was all a fever dream. 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 5: I wasn't sure how it would work logistically, but he's 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 5: a little snippet from how it went. I don't know 39 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 5: where I'm going. 40 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 6: I've been given the address of a cafe and they 41 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 6: will be picking me up to. 42 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 4: Transport me the rest of the way. 43 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 6: I get a full tour of the facility, I get 44 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 6: to meet one of the training officers to find out 45 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 6: what it takes to become one of our best spies. 46 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 4: Your destination will be on the right. I am out 47 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 4: the front of the cafe. 48 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 5: I can't see anyone yet, but I've got all my 49 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 5: gear and I'm a little bit nervous. 50 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 4: I don't know what to expect, but I'll see you 51 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 4: guys on the flip side. 52 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 5: I can't share too much detail, but after several checkpoints, 53 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 5: I was allowed inside the wire and shown some of 54 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 5: the scenario rooms used in training, as well as witnessing 55 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 5: and advanced medical training activity. I also saw the internal 56 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 5: museum housing some very cool classified spy kit and artifacts, 57 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 5: and signed the guestbook. You can imagine how surreal it 58 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 5: was to see former visitors noting their organization. So in 59 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 5: that column was CIA, MICIX, DGSE, and then I simply 60 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 5: wrote CES THEA, which was a bit of a change 61 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 5: of pace for them. And then I got to meet 62 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 5: two long serving foreign intelligence officers or spies who you 63 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 5: are about to hear from now. They will be introduced 64 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 5: to you as Jess and Tara, but of course that 65 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 5: isn't their real names, nor will their official titles be revealed. 66 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 5: They shared some of the most incredible experiences and insights 67 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 5: into their careers at aces, with a few classified details 68 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 5: beamed out. Of course that's to be expected, but again, 69 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 5: I was just blown away by these powerful, capable women 70 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 5: and the crazy fact that they can never actually tell 71 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 5: people what they've done. I still can't believe we've been 72 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 5: given such a special insight into this secret world, especially 73 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 5: since it's the very first time it's been done. I'm 74 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 5: not sure why ces THEA is the place that has 75 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 5: been chosen and trusted, but it truly is an honor 76 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 5: and I hope that you the neighborhood enjoy every minute 77 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 5: as much as I have. I could listen to these 78 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 5: episodes over and over again, and of course I already have, 79 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 5: but we'll never get bored of this absolutely fascinating first 80 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 5: lifting of the veil, and I'm. 81 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: So very grateful. I hope you guys enjoy. Welcome to 82 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 4: Seize the A. 83 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 5: I can't even use your names, but welcome to two 84 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 5: incredible intelligence officers of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service. 85 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 4: Thank you for being here, Thanks for having us. 86 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's exciting. This is the first time I think 87 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: we've gotten to speak like this in the history of 88 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: our service. 89 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 6: Oh my god. 90 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 4: Well, what a great privilege, and to do it at 91 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 4: a top secret location. 92 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 5: So as much as you are able, can you begin 93 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 5: by introducing yourselves. 94 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 3: My name is Jess and I am ASUS. 95 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: I have been in the service for almost twenty years. 96 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 5: Oh that's incredible, And of course Jess is not your 97 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 5: real name for everyone listening, but we'll roll with it 98 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 5: for today. 99 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 4: Thank you, Jess. 100 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: And my name is Tara, also not my real name. 101 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: I have been in ASUS for twenty years and my job. 102 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 5: Is well, it is such an incredible privilege to be 103 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 5: able to speak with you both, particularly bringing so many 104 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 5: years of experience across so many different facets of what 105 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 5: it takes to be an ASUS intelligence officer. Can we 106 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 5: start with how you were recruited? Because I think this 107 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 5: is one of those things where, I mean, it's been 108 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 5: my dream job my whole life. I'm still waiting for 109 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 5: the tap on the shoulder. So how did it happen 110 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 5: for you guys? 111 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: Well, I was actually living overseas at the time. I 112 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: had been teaching English for a number of years. The 113 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: original plan was just to do it for one year, 114 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: but it was a fun lifestyle, so one year inevitably 115 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: turned into many years, and eventually, several years in I 116 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: got a letter in the mail. It was from my 117 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: mother and she had cut out an ad from the 118 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: Sydney Morning Herald. It was for Asis and she had 119 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: a little handwritten note that said, it's time you got 120 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: a real job. 121 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: I'll apply for this. 122 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: So I did. I did what my mum said, and 123 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: I've been a spy for twenty years. 124 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: Stop it. 125 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 4: Had you ever considered intelligence before that point? 126 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: I think she was attuned to it and that's why 127 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: she noticed it because I had. I'd considered it, but 128 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: I honestly felt that it was something out of reach. 129 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: I didn't know a lot about it. I didn't know 130 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: anybody in the world, and it just seemed like a 131 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: fantasy that would never be a reality. So when my 132 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,119 Speaker 1: mother said, hey, i've seen this ad, apply I did. 133 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: And I just kept on getting through each stage and 134 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: here I am. 135 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 5: I think that is the great challenge for a service 136 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 5: that is shrouded in so much secrecy, is that you 137 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 5: know so many people firstly don't even know that ASUS exists. 138 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 5: But then if you do envision a career for yourself, 139 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 5: most people don't know how to apply but the fact 140 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 5: that you can just apply on listening. 141 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 4: You can just apply that's exactly right. That's exactly right, Jess, 142 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: what about you. 143 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: I also did not know that aces existed, and my 144 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: recruitment method is also slightly non traditional, more along the 145 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: lines up, I know you've been waiting for somebody to 146 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: tell me they were shoulder tacked. 147 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: I found it in a couple of other episodes. 148 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 5: I've got shoulder pads on right now, just in case 149 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 5: the moment is today. 150 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: Ready to go. 151 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: So I wasn't shoulder taped per se as in approached 152 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: by a complete stranger and led down a spooky alleyway. 153 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: But it's more along the lines of what we would 154 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: call talent spotting. My dog actually dug under the fence 155 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: into my neighbor's yard. The neighbors had just moved into 156 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: that property. So I went around and knocked on the 157 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,559 Speaker 2: door to get my dog back, and was invited into 158 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: their house and they said, come in and have a 159 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: glass of wine. So I spent the next couple of 160 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: hours talking to my neighbors, one of them in particular, who, 161 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: unbeknownst to me, was eliciting every detail of my background 162 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: and experience throughout that comp station and at some point 163 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: said to me, I think your skill set would be 164 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: highly sought after in certain government government departments. And I 165 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: threw my hands up in the air and said, well, 166 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: I've never seen any job you know that kind of 167 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: appeals to my passions and interests and my background. And 168 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: he said, why don't you give me your resume? So 169 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: I madly went home and made a resume because I 170 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: didn't have one. Within a couple of weeks, I got 171 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: a phone call from ASS Recruitment. They actually said ASIS 172 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: on the phone, which is a really rare occurrence, so 173 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: it's not normally said, you know, over open lines of communication. 174 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: And the first question they asked was do you know 175 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: what that is? 176 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 4: Did you at that point? 177 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: No? 178 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: So I lied and said, yes, of course I know 179 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: what it is, but I didn't. And I then met 180 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: with a couple of officers who were quite senior at 181 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: the time. They explained the job a little bit more. 182 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: I had in the interim gone to the library and 183 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: looked at what ASS was the library the Dewy decimal system, yes, correct. 184 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: From there I went through a number of selection and 185 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: recruitment processes and ended up in the job but I 186 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: think when I started, I still didn't properly appreciate what 187 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: ASIS was. But it's been an amazing career and I'm 188 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: still here. 189 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 5: And this is why I did not actually expect to 190 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 5: be able to interview two intelligence offices today. But one 191 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 5: of the reasons why I am so excited is because 192 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 5: even in the small amount of interactions I've had so far, 193 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 5: you can see what a broad range of not just skills, 194 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 5: but personality types and backgrounds that is needed in an 195 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 5: organization like this. And I think from the outside you 196 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 5: assume that it is going to be a particular type 197 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 5: of personality that has a particular demeanor, and it hasn't 198 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 5: been like that at all. So I'm so grateful to 199 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 5: have both of you here. But of course you do 200 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 5: all go through training, and we are at this incredible 201 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 5: top secret training facility. 202 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 4: Obviously a lot. 203 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 5: Of the detail is going to be still classified, but 204 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 5: even top line, what can you share about what it 205 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 5: takes for you to qualify? I mean, I've seen some 206 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 5: really cool stuff. 207 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: Today, sure, I mean training in ASIS is not a 208 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: one and done It is continuous throughout every officer's career. 209 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: There are a whole raft of postgraduate courses that officers 210 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: will undertake that are designed for specific environments such as 211 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: high physical threat environments or high CI threat environments, or 212 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: language training prior to posting to a particular country. But 213 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: the foundational course that we run to be an intelligence 214 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: officer well over in total duration. It includes some of 215 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: the elements that you might imagine. So there are certain 216 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: physical elements, self defense training and physical and personal security 217 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: awareness training, tradecraft training, and that includes training, as tell. 218 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: Me, that's my favorite part. 219 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: It's my favorite part too. 220 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 3: And that's just one element of tradecraft. 221 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: So we teach the full gamut of operational tradecraft on 222 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 2: the course as well, which I can't talk about in 223 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: detail for obvious reasons, But it's all the tools and 224 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: methodology that we use and deploy in the field to 225 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: conduct secure operations and to protect our agents and keep 226 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: them safe. 227 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: Agents being our sources. So I think in popular culture 228 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: people think that the that we the intelligence officers, are 229 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: the agents, but in foreign intelligence circles, the agents of 230 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: the sources, the people that are working with us. 231 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 5: Again, this is so foreign for so many people because 232 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 5: it actually hasn't been spoken about very much. So this 233 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 5: is such a precious insight into what you do. One 234 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 5: of the things that I have been cleared to mention 235 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 5: is the situation rooms that we've seen, So you are 236 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 5: putting people in real life scenarios and they come out, 237 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 5: as you know, qualified in so many different things. But 238 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 5: another thing that I wanted to ask about is weapons training. 239 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 5: To talk to us about that, because you are both 240 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 5: already the most bad US women that I think I 241 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 5: have ever met. 242 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: We're laughing at ourselves because we know each other well. 243 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: We are legislatively authorized to be trained and carry weapons 244 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: in very specific and limited circumstances and in specific locations. 245 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: The purpose of that is for our self defense and 246 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: the protection of our agents, not for. 247 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 3: Anything that you might think you've seen in movies. 248 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: Heavily regulated, heavily regulated, tightly controlled, and approved at the 249 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: highest level by the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Yeah, the 250 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 2: training in more detail I won't go into, but we 251 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: do have. 252 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 4: It, oh my gosh. 253 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 5: And then there's also medical training and such a different 254 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 5: raft of things. 255 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 4: What would you both say is the coolest. 256 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: Skill that you have acquired over the course of your careers. 257 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: There are so many cool skills that you acquire as 258 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: an intelligence officer in asis. But for me, it's the 259 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: skill that has been most transferable to my everyday life, 260 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: and that is the command of my physical environment. I 261 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: could never get lost if I tried. It's those navigational skills. 262 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: It's also the confidence that I have to go to 263 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: a place in the world I've never been to before 264 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: and know the same thing. I could never be lost. 265 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: Jess mentioned in order to be proficient at you have 266 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: to be able to understand your physical geography, So for me, 267 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: that is the coolest thing. A few years ago, I 268 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: went on a one day, very long, very physical by 269 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: ride with my daughter. We started in the morning at 270 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: six am and we rode around a city on our 271 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: bicycles until six pm. She commented to me towards the end, 272 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: She goes, Mum, how can you're not using Google Maps? 273 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: How do you know where to go? And it never 274 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: occurred to me that I wasn't. It never occurred to 275 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: me until that point in time that I can know 276 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: a city like the back of my hand, and that 277 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: to somebody else that might be an unusual skill. 278 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 5: Nowadays, Oh my gosh, I want to crawl inside your 279 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 5: brain so badly. 280 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: It's a very empowering feeling to have command of your environment. 281 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: Yes, just what about you? What would you say is 282 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: your coolest skill? 283 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 3: For me? 284 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: I think the coolest skill is the advance and tradecraft 285 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: and the confidence it gives you operating in the field. 286 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: So very similar to Tara. Another one for me is 287 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: gaining fluency in foreign languages so that we can engage 288 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: with our agents in their mother tongues and with everyone 289 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: around us in our operational environments overseas, so that we 290 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: can integrate, blend in, understand all of the cultural nuance, 291 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: and know the depth of the language and the society 292 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: we're operating in. 293 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 5: That's the biggest draw card for me if I you know, 294 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 5: you guys know, I'm obsessed with this landscape. But languages 295 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 5: in particular have always been something that I have loved 296 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 5: to study. 297 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 4: I did them at UNI and being paid. 298 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 5: As part of your job to get fluent in another 299 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 5: language is the dream. 300 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: It really is, and the language training is incredible. As 301 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: Jess said, there are so many tangible operational reasons why 302 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: we need to develop that fluency. Language training is one 303 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: on one and you're paid full time. 304 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 4: To do it. 305 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: It's an absolute luxury, but it's suggestive of how incredibly 306 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: important it is. 307 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 5: Yes, And as you've said just then about the nuance, 308 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 5: you can't just be learning sort of textbook. 309 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 4: Or kindergarten level. Even with a business fluency. 310 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 5: It needs to be able to understand cultural nuance, which 311 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 5: is a level of language that most people probably don't 312 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 5: ever attain when they're studying. 313 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 4: What about we before we. 314 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 5: Move on to sort of your day to day You 315 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 5: mentioned before, and we've spoken a lot about the difficulty 316 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 5: of recruiting and often because people don't know just how 317 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 5: diverse the. 318 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: Type of people are that you need. 319 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 5: When you're both intimately involved in the training process and 320 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 5: in the scenario rooms everything is monitored. Are there any 321 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 5: traits that you do look for in an office or 322 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 5: that you do think would make someone listening, for example, 323 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 5: realize that they're really well. 324 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: Suited first and foremost, what we always say is people 325 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: who make good intelligence officers have superior into personal skills. 326 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: But what does that actually mean. One test that we 327 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: can have people who are listening do is think about 328 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: whether you're the type of person who if you inadvertently 329 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: say the wrong thing, or you inadvertently upset or annoy 330 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: or irritate someone person that you're talking to. Are you 331 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: the kind of person who can immediately realize that, then 332 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: immediately know why, and then fix it. Another test is 333 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: are you the kind of person who can create relationships 334 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: with and engage people who are so different to yourself? 335 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: You might be culturally different, might be different. Age, might 336 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: be people thirty years older than you, ten years younger 337 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: than you, people from different backgrounds, people with different attitudes, 338 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: people with different beliefs in life. Are you curious and 339 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: in spite of all of those differences, can you build 340 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: a bond? Can you build trust? And do you find 341 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: people open. 342 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 4: Up to you? 343 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 2: Can I also just duck back there to the other 344 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: half of the foundational training. Oh my gosh, yes, course 345 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: on this point exactly. 346 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 4: Please do. I'm sorry I didn't realize. I'm too excited. 347 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: It's as important as the tools that we used to 348 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: keep our operations and our people and our agents secure. 349 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: It is the basically the training on interpersonal dynamics and 350 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: influence and engagement. Because this job, fundamentally at its core, 351 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: is about human connection. There is a very heavy focus 352 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: throughout the training on taking each individual when they begin 353 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: the training and having them reflect and us reflect deeply 354 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: on their personalities and how they engage with others, and 355 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: we then work to amplify all of the positive beneficial 356 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: traits that a person has and help those candidates learn 357 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: how to best amplify those traits while minimizing the vulnerabilities and. 358 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 3: The less favorable traits. 359 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: So we don't aim in the training to create a 360 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: cookie cutter intelligence officer. We aim to take the full 361 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: diversity of officers and strengthen them and give them confidence 362 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: in exactly who they are, so that they have the 363 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: dynamism and the confidence and the self awareness to be 364 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: able to engage with any interlocutre anywhere. 365 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: The other stuff is the bit. 366 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: That sounds cool, but it's not the bulk, and it's 367 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: a bit that everybody wants to hear. But I have 368 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: to say, if you don't have the interpersonal elements, and 369 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: if you don't enjoy and are not curious about engaging 370 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 2: with others, this will not be the job for you. 371 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's one thing that's fascinated me is I 372 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 5: think from the outside there is this perception of a 373 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 5: spy as the lone wolf who's a little bit socially awkward, 374 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 5: and you know, everyone I have met has been infinitely 375 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 5: warm and personal, which would of course only make you 376 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 5: better at personal relationships. And you are a human intelligence 377 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 5: organization and you can't do that without people skills. We'll 378 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 5: get to myth busting later, but that's the biggest myth 379 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 5: that I have instantly seen busted is what you think 380 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 5: is by is going to be like, and then what 381 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 5: they have been so far and incredible people people. 382 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 3: We have to build trust. 383 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: Yes, for people to put their security in our hands, 384 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: we have to be able to build trust and confidence 385 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: in others, and to do that we first have to 386 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: have it in ourselves. 387 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 5: So with that remit being human intelligence and in the 388 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 5: case of ASIS that being focused on foreign intelligence, I 389 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 5: think that's the macro description. But what we haven't been 390 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 5: privy too much in the past is the micro of 391 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 5: how your life works on a day to day basis. 392 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 5: Are you where in Australia currently recording? Are you often overseas? 393 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 5: Do you have to come back? Do you get noticed 394 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 5: before you're sent on an operation? I'm sure it looks 395 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 5: nothing like a conventional nine to five. 396 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 4: So, without disclosing anything. 397 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 5: That you're not permitted to, what does the day to 398 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 5: day actually involve well. 399 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: I think this is where Jess and I diverge in 400 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: our experience. So I have had a long career as 401 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: a traditional a traditional spy, I have spent the majority 402 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: of my time overseas. In order for me to protect 403 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: my cover, I actually have to do the job that 404 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: I am saying that I'm doing overseas. So there is 405 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: an element of having two jobs at once. It can 406 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: be quite busy, there can be quite a large workload. 407 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: But the good news is is that the work that 408 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: I've done in under has been closely aligned to the 409 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: work that I have done as an intelligence officer. So 410 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: day to day, it would be working in my office 411 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: doing my day job, a little bit of what we 412 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: call our cover work, but also a lot of it 413 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: is the planning and the preparation of the operations that 414 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: we do. Operations are very meticulously planned things because we 415 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: engage with risk. We're expert risk managers. So that's a 416 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: majority of the day now actually undertaking the operations. If 417 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: you think about the fact that our primary job is 418 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: to collect intelligence from our sources or our agents overseas, 419 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: we have to do it in a way that protects 420 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: their identity and is undetected, so that they're not known 421 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: to be meet us or seeing us. It usually means 422 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: that we can't do it during daylight hours because they 423 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: have jobs just like we have jobs, So there are 424 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: times when we are working long hours. But the good 425 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: news is is that we control our operations, which means 426 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: that I can set a tempo that works well for 427 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: my life. I have a family. I'm married, I have 428 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: three children. They have come with me overseas, and while 429 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: I've been overseas, I've led a normal life. My family 430 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: has engaged in the cultures and the lifestyle of the 431 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: places that we've lived in. It's been incredibly enriching for them. 432 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: It's been great opportunity with many benefits for all of 433 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: my children and for my husband. So we do, in 434 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: asis make sure that our offices are mindful that when 435 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to live overseas on a long 436 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: term posting, that you make sure that you look after 437 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: your health. You make sure you look after your well being. 438 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: It's in nobody's interest to get burnt out. And we're 439 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: very very good at managing our stress and our time. 440 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, you must be. 441 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 5: But I mean, even at this point it is extraordinary 442 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 5: to me and I think incredibly positive for anyone listening 443 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 5: that the DG and both of you are women, and 444 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 5: two of you are mothers, and that is one thing 445 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 5: I would have thought would exclude you from being a 446 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 5: successful and senior member of this organization. And yet it 447 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 5: seems that this work life balance is possible, and it doesn't. 448 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 5: I think we do often think that family life precludes ambition, 449 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 5: but obviously it doesn't, even in one of the coolest. 450 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 4: Jobs in the world. But what about you, Jess, Do 451 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: you have a family? 452 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 2: I actually don't have a family. I mean I have 453 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: a family, yes, no, yes, you have a family, but 454 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 2: I don't have a partner and children. But I would 455 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: say I'm more the anomaly than you. And lots of 456 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: women in the service have families and partners and they do. 457 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: Exactly what Tara just describes. 458 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: Throughout that career, I have had a little more of 459 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: a non traditional spying experience, shall we call it. I 460 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: have done a lot more work in war zones and 461 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: high physical threat locations, so by the nature of the 462 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: work that is undertaken in those places, it can be 463 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: slightly more reactive and responsive. The deployment time can often 464 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: have a really short turnaround, which I'm able to do 465 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: because I don't have a family, But that doesn't preclude 466 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: officers who do have families from doing exactly the same thing, 467 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: and they do all the time when it suits them. 468 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: I mean, the shortest period of notice I've had to 469 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: deploy overseas on an operation was two hours before I 470 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: had to be on an international flight. And to make 471 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: it worse, I had literally just walked in the door 472 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: from coming back from overseas from another operation, and I 473 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: had put all of my wearable clothes in the washing 474 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 2: machine and they were all wet, and I got in 475 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: call saying you need to get on another plane. 476 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: I actually can't remember what I did in this. 477 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: You just wore your unwearable clothes. 478 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 3: I probably did again. 479 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 4: It is such a lay person's issue to have. 480 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 5: I'm sorry I can't go on a secret mission because 481 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 5: my laundry exactly exactly. What are some of the best 482 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 5: parts of the job, the hardest parts of the job, 483 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 5: and maybe the parts that might surprise people the most. 484 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: I'll start with the best part. I think we agree 485 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: on this, we do. I know people often say it's 486 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: the people that's the best part of it, and there's 487 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: a lot of truth in that. But for me, it 488 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: is the way our people come together to plan and 489 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: execute operations that people would think are impossible. Yeah, absolutely impossible. 490 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: Even us at the outset might think that can't be done. 491 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: That can't be done. 492 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: But we have such a group of brilliant and diverse 493 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 2: minds and opinions in our workplace, and a real culture 494 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 2: of teamwork and red teaming ideas where boldness and audacity 495 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: and creativity and innovation are strongly encouraged, and everyone has 496 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: a voice at a place, at a table to figure 497 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 2: out an incredible, potentially seemingly implausible solution to a really 498 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: complex challenge that might carry high or even extreme levels 499 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: of risk. I look around to me and I'm constantly 500 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: impressed about individual officers, but the collective and how we 501 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: do what we do every day in a different and 502 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: new way. 503 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: And the outcome of this amazing process is that sometimes 504 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: often we produce an intelligence report that changes the course 505 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: of government decision making. It illuminates those ambiguous unknowns, so 506 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: government can make the best informed decisions possile on our behalf, 507 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: on all of our behalf. 508 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 5: I think the everyday Australian doesn't realize that the safety 509 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 5: and blisful ignorance that we all get to live with 510 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 5: is often because of people like you doing things that 511 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 5: we will never know about. What about the hardest parts 512 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 5: or the biggest surprises that an outsider might think is interesting. 513 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: On the hardest part and I think we agree on 514 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: this too. We do, and I think most intelligence officers would. 515 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: It is saying goodbye to the agents that we run 516 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: because we form very deep and trusting relationships with the 517 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: people that work for us, sometimes decades long. Yes, but 518 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: of course no one individual officer can stay with that 519 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 2: agent for their O type. There would be risks involved 520 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 2: in that too, But every single one of us retains 521 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: a deep connection to those who demonstrate incredible personal curage 522 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: to serve us and their countries in doing the work 523 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: that they do for us. We don't then know what 524 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 2: happens after that point in time where were involved. You 525 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 2: do have a touch point where you can check in 526 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: and make. 527 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 4: Sure that's amazing. I was going to ask. 528 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: Another difficult thing is having to look like you're boring 529 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world. There is absolutely nothing 530 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: boring about being an ACIS intelligence officer. 531 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 4: I can see. 532 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 3: I mean. 533 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: You can see from where we are, from the conversations 534 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: you've had, it is the coolest job in the world. 535 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: But to the outside you appear like an ordinary and 536 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: often very boring person, worrying about wearing grubby clothes, not 537 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: getting your washing done, et cetera, as Jess often has 538 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: to experience. So people who get their sense of validation 539 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: from outside from the amount of attention accolades, public recognition 540 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: is not. If you are of that type of wiring, 541 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: you would find it very difficult to be an intelligence 542 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: officer in which the amazing successes, the amazing operations that 543 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: you run, the amazing things you conceive of and execute, 544 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: will never be known, yes by most people. 545 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 5: I actually mentioned that yesterday with the DG that the 546 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 5: ego that must have to be set aside to be 547 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 5: able to operate at the level you do and not 548 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 5: need external recognition for it. In a society where that 549 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,479 Speaker 5: kind of validation is in the hierarchy of recognition, public 550 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 5: recognition is often the one that people go for or 551 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 5: are driven by that it takes a very humble person 552 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 5: to be able to do that. 553 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: We're very good at celebrating success within asses and when 554 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: we have our own successes and it's celebrated and it's recognized, 555 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: it's an amazing feeling. But we genuinely share in and 556 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: love the successes of each other. Yeah, very often it 557 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: is a team success. 558 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,959 Speaker 5: I can only imagine that the bonds you have with 559 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 5: your colleagues is so much deeper than that of any 560 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 5: other workplace because so few of you, I mean so 561 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 5: few other people in Australia would have empathy or be 562 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 5: able to even envision what you do, So that mutual 563 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 5: understanding I think must be so special. 564 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: There's definitely something when you hide a huge part of 565 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: your identity from the entire world and often from close relatives, 566 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: there is something that is incredibly bonding about the people 567 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: from whom you don't hide that, and also the people 568 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: who share your experiences and understand the life that you 569 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: lead exactly. 570 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, what about And I know this is probably the 571 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 5: very small percentage of what you do, but of course 572 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 5: is a bit I have to ask about the pop 573 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 5: culture representations that you guys see and whether or not 574 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,959 Speaker 5: you watch it is also a question. 575 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 4: But is there. 576 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 5: Anything that you see out there that comes even close 577 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 5: to the truth. Of course, you don't have to say, 578 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 5: how it does. Are there any myths that you constantly 579 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 5: see that you want a bus that really frustrate you? 580 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: Yes? 581 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 4: And do you guys even enjoy watching that stuff? 582 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: Gosh, there have been so many times when I have 583 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: felt like I've been in a movie. 584 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like that just listening to some 585 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 4: of the stuff you said. 586 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: So the course that my career has taken, I have 587 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: been continuously operating in those high society, high political echelons. 588 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: If you think of the pop culture kind of tuxedo 589 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: wearing spy, I would be the cocktail dress wearing equivalent 590 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: of that. And Jess is laughing because her career has 591 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: been so different. But I remember one time I was 592 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: at a party and I was overseas and my husband 593 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: was there, and we were living in the country in 594 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: which this party took place, and my husband looked over 595 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: and saw someone on the other side of the room 596 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: and said to me, oh God, I recognized that guy. 597 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: I think he's in my soccer team. I'm just going 598 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: to go and say hello. And I said, no, stop, 599 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: that's the Prime Minister of You recognize him from the television. 600 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, So you really are your Tara Bond. 601 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 4: At the embassy parties with the Prime ministers. 602 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 3: I don't know. 603 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: I think I think Tara and Jess together probably with 604 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: the combination. 605 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 4: Of careers on United Bond. 606 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: Yes, my experience is probably a little bit more whiskey 607 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: tango fo structure. 608 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 3: It's not it's not that bad. I actually really. 609 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: Don't watch espionage related movies or television or read the books. 610 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 4: Does it frustrate you? Is that why? Or it's just 611 00:32:58,680 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 4: I just we do it. 612 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: We don't do that every day, but when I get 613 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: home from work, it's the last thing I want to 614 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: read about. I want to do other things and I 615 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 2: want to read other books. I've seen bits and pieces 616 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: and I know about them because people talk about them 617 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: in the office and how ridiculous they are. 618 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: I mean, everything is hammed up because it's Hollywood. 619 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: Of course, there are elements of all of those shows 620 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: and TVs which will have, you know. 621 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: Moments of realism in them. 622 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: But there are some definitely some myths, Plara. I have 623 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: a problem with the myth that there is no crying 624 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 2: in spying. Okay, you know, in the movies and TV 625 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: shows you always see the spy having their existential and 626 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: personal crises in the shower where their tears can silently 627 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: wash down with the streams of water, and then you know, 628 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 2: they step out of the shower and they go back 629 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: to their normally incredible lives. 630 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: Not true. We are humans like everybody else. 631 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: We go through the full out of human experiences and emotions, 632 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 2: and they happen at inconvenient times. We have all the 633 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: joys and sorrows of life like everybody else does. We 634 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: aren't these kind of pent up, brooding lone wolf, you know, 635 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: shower criers. The second myth is we don't have badges 636 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: of the very few. Well, two times basically that I 637 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: have told people in my personal life that I've been 638 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: approved to tell people in my personal life what my 639 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 2: job is. The first one, I spent a long time 640 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: planning the conversation because I had been in the service 641 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 2: for almost ten years at that point, and so I 642 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: had lived my cover with everybody that I knew and 643 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 2: really solidly embedded it. So this person was convinced by 644 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 2: my cover and did not believe that when I told 645 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: them I was an ACESS officucker. They thought I was 646 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: setting them up for some elaborate plant punked. 647 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 3: Yes, pretty much, pretty much. 648 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: And then when I said no, no, it's you know, 649 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: it's this is the truth, this is the actual truth 650 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: about my life, they said, right, show me a badge. 651 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: I said, I don't have a don't have a badge, 652 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: and they said what they do in the movies? 653 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 3: Do they? Oh? I don't know. But yes. 654 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: Another myth I think that I'd like to bust is 655 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: the myth that the work is dangerous and I just 656 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: want to draw a contrast between danger and risk. Yes, 657 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: we one hundred percent engage with risk, as this is 658 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: not an organization that is seeking to eliminate risk. We're 659 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: an organization that engages with risk, and we deal with 660 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: very high stakes risk. We're talking about political risk, risk 661 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: to bilateral relationships, risks to the reputation of Australia, risks 662 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: to the reputation of our agency. But that's different to danger. 663 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: So just to talk about risk a little bit. We 664 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: are the experts, we don't necessarily so in fact, we 665 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: don't deal with physical risk. That is not our job 666 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: at all. As I mentioned earlier and as Jess spoke about, 667 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: we understand the environment that we work in better than 668 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: anyone and those skills, the skills that we take into 669 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: our everyday life, so particularly as women, we have a 670 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: heightened sense of situational awareness because of our job. It 671 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: actually makes us safer. The number of times I've been 672 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: on holidays overseas with my family and I've been able 673 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: to identify when we've become a target of criminal gangs 674 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: or pickpockets is because of my ASIS training. So people 675 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: who think, oh, it might be a physically dangerous job, 676 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: actually in your everyday life it makes you safer, it 677 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: protects you. 678 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 5: I love that because one of my questions was do 679 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 5: you ever feel unsafe? And I think that is where 680 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 5: pop culture doesn't necessarily. 681 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 4: Depict the reality of what you're. 682 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,959 Speaker 5: Actually facing or running away from, like intrument all the time, 683 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 5: you know. 684 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 4: I think that's probably the departure from the truth. 685 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: Like Tara said, if anything, we are far better trained 686 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 2: and equipped to deal with any of that if it 687 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: happens because of the job we do and because of 688 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: the training that we've received, and the Service would never 689 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 2: send us into a situation where they didn't have confidence 690 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: that we had the skills to deal with whatever confronted us, 691 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: or where we didn't have the confidence in our own 692 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: skills to deal with that. I mean, I've worked in 693 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: a lot of high threat locations and I've actually. 694 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 3: Never felt unsafe. But the only place I have been 695 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 3: mugged is in Canberra. 696 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 5: Well, that leads into the next question. With your incredibly 697 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 5: well honed situational awareness at all times, and that's necessary 698 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 5: from all your training, it's hard for everyone to switch 699 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 5: off from their work, that boundary drawing and rest. And 700 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 5: you know the world is so fast paid. Is that 701 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 5: applies to most people? For you, guys, I said to 702 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 5: the DJ yesterday, it's not like politics and the world 703 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 5: of intelligence works on a nine to five basis. There's 704 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 5: stuff happening twenty four seven. So for you guys to 705 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 5: stop is I'm sure even harder than the average person. 706 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 5: Or for you to switch off the spidery senses and 707 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 5: just be in the moment. 708 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 4: How do you switch off? 709 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: Well, I actually find it very easy to switch off. 710 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: And I think it's twenty years of work of not 711 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: being able to take work home. So twenty years of 712 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: working on top secret systems means that you can't work. 713 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: You can't take a laptop home and work from it 714 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: or make a phone book, you can't talk about work 715 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: at home, and so as a result of that. For me, 716 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: I think over a course of conditioning over many years, 717 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: I just don't even think about work when I'm not 718 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: at work. 719 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 4: It's so amazing. 720 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 5: I didn't even think of the physical barrier that's drawn 721 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 5: there for you. You two and everyone else in your 722 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 5: shoes is just an extraordinary breed of person doing incredible 723 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 5: things for Australia and Australians and everyone listening. If you 724 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 5: didn't already know or have this little insight into the 725 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 5: people who are protecting you at all times so that 726 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 5: you can live the lives that you do, I hope 727 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 5: that you feel a deep gratitude. 728 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 4: For women like this. 729 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 5: Is there any Are there any final tips or things 730 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 5: that you would share to any listeners who might be 731 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 5: considering intelligence. 732 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: Most definitely, I think the biggest thing is don't self 733 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: select out. Yes, at the very beginning, you yourself said 734 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: made reference to the fact that there are many different personalities, 735 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: many different types of people, and Jess explained about the 736 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: training that we're not here to provide cookie cutter people. 737 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: It's not a particular type that we're looking for. So 738 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: if you can't see yourself reflected in say what you've 739 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: gleaned of my personality or Jess's personality, that's fine. But 740 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: what you should glean from this conversation is that we're 741 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: two very, very different people. We've got two different personalities 742 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: and yet we're equally very successful intelligence officers. The other 743 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: thing is, don't be tempted or make the mistake of 744 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: thinking that this is a license to be rogue, that 745 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: we are manipulative, duplicitous types of people. While there is 746 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: an element of influence in the type of what we do. 747 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: In order to do a job that some people might 748 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: consider grubby, in that respect, we have to be the 749 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: people of or we have to be people with the 750 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: utmost integrity. So we hold the highest security clearances in 751 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: the country and we have the trust of government by extension, 752 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: the trust of the Australian people to behave with propriety 753 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: and integrity at all times. 754 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 3: So just if. 755 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: Anyone's thinking, oh, yeah, I get to carry guns and 756 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: go to parties and do crazy things, no, no, it 757 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: should not be the motivation. 758 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: And I think to add to that, don't assume if 759 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 2: you're considering a career as an intelligence officer, don't assume 760 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 2: that you have to come with the skills, Yes, to 761 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: do the job, you have to come with the personality 762 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: to be able to do the job. We teach you 763 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 2: the skills, yes, and some of that comes from drawing 764 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: out the best parts of your personality. But you know, 765 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 2: people thinking, oh, I've got to get my license in 766 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: bow hunting and skills or you know what, I like, 767 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 2: it's mind reading mind, it's Telli, it's actually, it's actually 768 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 2: we don't want people to presuppose what it is they 769 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: think the skills are, because that's our job. Then the 770 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 2: flip side of that is, I mean you asked what 771 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 2: advice would you give to people considering intelligence as a career. 772 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 2: I would say, to people that are not considering intelligence 773 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: as a career, why aren't you? 774 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, right, very powerful. 775 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 5: I love that absolutely, And I mean, given the three 776 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 5: wonderful guests that I've been so lucky to interview, or 777 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 5: being women, and I think a lot of high powered, 778 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 5: sometimes high risk roles, and particularly all three of you 779 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 5: being senior, it's not as common that you see women 780 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 5: in those positions, and it is easy to assume that 781 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 5: it might be a male dominated environment. But Tara, you 782 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 5: have already said to me off air that women are 783 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 5: particularly well attuned and by default have a lot of 784 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 5: the natural empathy and skills required. Has it been harder 785 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 5: for you in any way as women in your careers. 786 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely not, And I think I said to you, intelligence 787 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: or intelligence collection, particularly foreign intelligence collection, it's an inherently 788 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: feminine job for those reasons that you said building connections 789 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: with people. The relationships are deep, they're trusting. When you 790 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: hold someone's biggest secret, and there really is no biggest 791 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: secret than engaging in espionage. Every other skeleton in their 792 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: closet is minor by comparison, and you get to know those, 793 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: you become their confidante, you become a counselor. These are 794 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: all very, very inherently feminine traits. I was one of 795 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: the first female and same with JESS officers to be 796 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: deployed to war zones. I was in my twenties at 797 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: the time. There was no consideration that I couldn't do 798 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: it based on my gender. Since joining the service, I've 799 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: had three babies, so I've had the full physical expression 800 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: of my femininity and it's never stopped me from doing 801 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: my job. The workplace has been supportive. Major life events 802 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: are things to be celebrated and understood. And it's not like, yeah, 803 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: give them an inch and they'll take a mile. You 804 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: have one baby, you're going to have ten. 805 00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 2: No, it's a sevy three maybe three, but no, absolutely not, 806 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 2: absolutely not. 807 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: And that's and I have grown up in an organization 808 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: where my managers were men, so not necessarily where my 809 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: managers were the senior women we see now, yes, but 810 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: it's always been who is the best fit for the job. 811 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 4: We're greedy like that, and. 812 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: We'll take the best person we can get. 813 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 3: Well, I love that. 814 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 5: It's you both, and that does not surprise me now 815 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 5: having spoken to you. It has been the greatest privilege. 816 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,879 Speaker 5: Thank you for everything you do and for everything you've 817 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 5: shared today. 818 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 3: Thank you for having us. 819 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 2: This is really unique, and in some ways it feels 820 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 2: a bit, feel a bit naked, feel very naughty. 821 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,320 Speaker 5: If I hadn't met my hero beforehand. I have three 822 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 5: new ones after these last two episodes. What incredible women 823 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 5: we have been lucky to chat with, especially given the 824 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 5: secrecy surrounding their work. As I mentioned, this is a 825 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 5: hugely pivotal time for Asus, and I've includ links in 826 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,760 Speaker 5: the show notes to all their new website and Instagram page, 827 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 5: including recruitment information for anyone whose interest may have been 828 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,399 Speaker 5: piqued more tangibly and whose path YAY may veer into 829 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 5: this world one day in the future. If you enjoyed, 830 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 5: as always, please do share the episode, tagging ass and 831 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 5: us so we can grow the neighborhood as far and 832 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 5: wide as possible and celebrate these extraordinary women and the 833 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 5: things that they are doing to keep Australian safe. In 834 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 5: the meantime, I hope you're having an amazing week and 835 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 5: are seizing your ya