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Speaker 1: So you're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Mayer

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Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this

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Speaker 1: podcast is recorded on out louders.

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Speaker 2: If you're missing your weekly out Loud routine over the break,

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Speaker 2: how could you not? We wanted to let you know

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Speaker 2: that we're still dropping episodes forma mea subscribers all summer long.

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Speaker 2: So as a subscriber, you get full access to out Loud,

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Speaker 2: including the back catalog of over two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: subscriber only episodes. Subscribe to Mamma Mia via the link

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Speaker 2: in the episode description.

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Speaker 1: Hey out loud as it's Maya. I hope you're enjoying

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Speaker 1: the sunshine and slipping, slopping and slapping catching up on

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Speaker 1: your favorite TV shows. I'm sitting here deciding what my

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Speaker 1: next type of focus will be. Who knows, could be

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Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzles, could be jellycats. I'll get back to you

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Speaker 1: on that, But what I do have to tell you

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Speaker 1: is that towards the end of last year, Holly and

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Speaker 1: I became obsessed with the series in Vogue the nineties

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Speaker 1: and the nineties you haven't noticed have been having a

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Speaker 1: bit of a revival. I still think they were ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, but go figure, apparently it was a bit

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Speaker 1: longer than that. Neither of us worked at Vogue, of course,

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Speaker 1: but we both did work in magazines in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: And one of the people who was really iconic in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties was a model called Paulina Partskova. She

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Speaker 1: predated the supermodels that you may think of, like the

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Speaker 1: Linda Naomi Christy Cindy's. She was kind of a big

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Speaker 1: supermodel actually in the eighties, but it extended across into

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Speaker 1: the early nineties when she married a rock star guy

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Speaker 1: called Rick Akasik, who was the lead singer of a

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Speaker 1: band called The Cars Look. She has re entered the

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Speaker 1: scene in a big way over the last couple of

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Speaker 1: years by becoming known as the Crying Lady of Instagram

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Speaker 1: because her life has taken quite an extraordinary turn. Her

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Speaker 1: story is fascinating. I love talking to her for this

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Speaker 1: episode of No Filter, and I think you really enjoy

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Speaker 1: this episode two. So here's a little treat.

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Speaker 3: Big envelopes arrived at the house, one for me and

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Speaker 3: one for each of my sons. And I opened it

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Speaker 3: and it said, you know, Last Will and Testament, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I'm barely processing anything, and

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Speaker 3: I've seen this note that saiding like somebody's handwriting my

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Speaker 3: wife she's not going to inherit anything because she abandoned me.

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Speaker 1: From MoMA. MA. I'm mea Friedman and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: no filter. Thanks for having me in your ears. I

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Speaker 1: want to tell you a story that I first heard

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Speaker 1: when I first started in magazines, because it's about my

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Speaker 1: guest today. It was the early nineties and someone I

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Speaker 1: worked with had just got back from New York where

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Speaker 1: they'd been a guest of Este Lauda, who'd flown them

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Speaker 1: over for the launch of some new product. At this

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Speaker 1: fancy launch, there were a whole lot of fancy people

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Speaker 1: from all around the world, magazine people sitting around, and

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Speaker 1: she was eating her fish or her steak or her chicken,

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Speaker 1: and next to her suddenly appeared Paulina Partskova, a supermodel

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Speaker 1: the face of Este Lauder. Fashion model Paulina Forskova.

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Speaker 3: Helena porus Gorva continues to get major contract esday Lauder's

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Speaker 3: self action tanning cream now in very Dark ten to

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Speaker 3: order all year round.

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Speaker 1: And this was back at a time when nobody really

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Speaker 1: knew the names of models It was sort of pre supermodel,

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Speaker 1: and Paulina Parrotskova was the most famous face and the

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Speaker 1: most famous woman in the world in the modeling industry.

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Speaker 1: And so she came and sat down next to my

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Speaker 1: friend and she said, have you got a cigarette? I

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Speaker 1: need to get away from all of these people. And

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Speaker 1: I just loved that story because it was so different

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Speaker 1: to the perfect image on all the esday Lorda advertising

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Speaker 1: billboards and magazine ads that I'd seen where you might

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Speaker 1: recognize her face. She also was famous because she was

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Speaker 1: the girl in a music video for the Cars. Their

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Speaker 1: most famous hit was called Drive. I wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: sing it to you, but I know you want to

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Speaker 1: hear it, so it kind of goes, Who's going to

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Speaker 1: drive you home tonight? Doo dooo do doo doo doo.

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Speaker 1: Shall I keep going? No, you know I'm mean to

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Speaker 1: keep going? But probably you'll remember the song that was

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Speaker 1: a huge hit in the eighties, and that's where she

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Speaker 1: met her husband, who was the lead singer of that band.

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Speaker 1: His name was Rick Ocasek. Anyway, he was kind of

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Speaker 1: different looking, and they got this nickname in the press

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Speaker 1: as Beauty and the Beast, which was kind of a

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Speaker 1: bit insulting to them both. But then Paulina kind of disappeared.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see her face anymore. She was replaced in

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Speaker 1: magazines and on catwalks and in ad campaigns by the

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Speaker 1: next generation of supermodels until around COVID time, when I

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Speaker 1: was scrolling through Instagram like so many people were, and

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Speaker 1: I saw this lady crying, not just like, you know,

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Speaker 1: an artful tear rolling down her face, but that full,

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Speaker 1: ugly cry that you do, and she was looking into

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Speaker 1: the camera, lying on her bed and bawling her eyes out.

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Speaker 1: That's when she became known to a whole new generation

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Speaker 1: of women as the crying Lady on Instagram. And it

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Speaker 1: turns out it wasn't just COVID tears. She had a

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Speaker 1: lot of really really good reasons to cry. But also

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Speaker 1: she kind of gets the last laugh in this story.

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Speaker 1: You're going to enjoy it. So of course my first

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Speaker 1: question was, why were you crying?

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Speaker 3: Oh haha, okay, so I think that it's not well

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Speaker 3: in my case at least, it certainly wasn't a conscious

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Speaker 3: decision to fill myself crying and then post it to Instagram.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't done for Instagram. I was just in a really,

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Speaker 3: really horrible part of my life. At this point, my

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Speaker 3: husband had died, I was utterly alone. There was a

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Speaker 3: pandemic raging, I had to sell my house. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I was in at the shittiest place of my life

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Speaker 3: since I can use the word. And you know, I

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Speaker 3: cried every day. I cried for hours and hours and

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Speaker 3: hours a day, and I cried so much that it

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Speaker 3: became boring. But you know, it wouldn't stop just because

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Speaker 3: it was boring. It didn't mean that, you know, that

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't keep going. So at some point I just

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Speaker 3: thought I'll film myself crying, because, you know, because I

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Speaker 3: was so good at crying. And when I saw it,

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Speaker 3: I thought, I wonder if anybody else out there feels

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Speaker 3: this way, you know there. Mind you, this was in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the pandemic, and I was not the

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Speaker 3: only person that was crying, at least at home, right

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Speaker 3: We were all having a pretty shitty time of the pen.

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Speaker 3: I was so lonely, and I wanted to sort of

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Speaker 3: reach out and to see if there was anybody out

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Speaker 3: there that felt as lonely as I. Just one person,

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Speaker 3: give me another person that's also that also is crying

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Speaker 3: all day and I think it was for that because

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Speaker 3: I thought if I saw a video of a woman

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Speaker 3: my age crying and talking about how miserable she feels,

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Speaker 3: it would make me feel so much better that I

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Speaker 3: wasn't alone. So in a mad fit of you know,

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Speaker 3: whatever it is that I was doing, I posted it. Now,

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Speaker 3: doing the video, I think that's not that big of

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Speaker 3: a deal. Posting it was the crazy bit, and I might,

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Speaker 3: you know, it might have been a sort of a

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Speaker 3: temporary insanity. Looking back at it and seeing the video now,

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Speaker 3: I think, oh my god, it's really ugly. It's really disturbing.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe that I revealed myself so nakedly to everyone.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it was a bit of madness involved.

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Speaker 3: But it did hook me up with people that felt

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Speaker 3: the same way, or other women that were feeling like

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Speaker 3: they were drowning, and I felt like they saved me.

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Speaker 3: You know, I helped them and they helped me. So

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Speaker 3: putting myself out there this way like that ugly and

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Speaker 3: that real.

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Speaker 1: That's how you connect with other women, though, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It's something that I learned a long time ago as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's as you say, sometimes I'll share things and

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Speaker 1: people will say that's really brave, and I'm like, it's

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Speaker 1: not brave, it's I feel seen because I feel normal,

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Speaker 1: Like it's a risk putting it out there. But then

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Speaker 1: someone says me too, me too, me too, and you go,

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Speaker 1: oh phew, it's not just me. So it helps them

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Speaker 1: and it helps you.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, because I think the worst, the worst part of

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Speaker 3: being a human is feeling like you don't exist. No,

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Speaker 3: like nobody hears you, no he sees you. And so

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Speaker 3: just one person that hears you and sees you helps

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Speaker 3: a little bit. And I desperately, I desperately needed for

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Speaker 3: somebody to just acknowledge that I existed.

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Speaker 1: What was so interesting to me watching that video? And

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Speaker 1: it was upsetting to watch, but it was also it

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Speaker 1: struck me as very defiant and you really demanding to

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Speaker 1: be seen because you couldn't look away, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're flicking through Instagram and there's this beautiful woman sobbing

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Speaker 1: and it was so raw and so I mean, we

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Speaker 1: all were a little unhinged during COVID, but it's not

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Speaker 1: what you would usually see, and particularly from someone who

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Speaker 1: was famous and famous for being so perfect. What's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me about you know, you've written in your book

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Speaker 1: about you always felt seen, but you never felt heard.

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Speaker 1: You were one of the most visible famous women in

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Speaker 1: the world world in the late eighties around that time

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Speaker 1: when you were the face of Estue Lauder. You seemed

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Speaker 1: so womanly to me then, but you were really still

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Speaker 1: just a girl, weren't you.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean to take into account that I

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Speaker 3: started when I was fifteen, so what you were a

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Speaker 3: member of me being, you know, the woman of Vestie Latter,

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Speaker 3: I'm like twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you seemed impossibly grown up, but you were

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Speaker 1: kind of the same age as me, not much older

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Speaker 1: than me. At the time, you were already i think,

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Speaker 1: either married to Rick or you'd already met him. You

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Speaker 1: were nineteen when you met him making the film clip

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Speaker 1: for drive.

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Speaker 3: You.

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Speaker 1: What was your life like at that time when you

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Speaker 1: met him. I mean, you were a model. You were

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Speaker 1: a hugely successful model in New York City. It was

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Speaker 1: the eighties. Was it wild?

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Speaker 3: You know what? Yes, it was. At the time, it

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Speaker 3: didn't seem particularly wild. It was just my life, you know.

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Speaker 3: I was nineteen. I was actually living with a boyfriend

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Speaker 3: at the time that I met Rick, and that I

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Speaker 3: had to break up with first, you know, before starting

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Speaker 3: anything with Rick, and you know, I had an apartment

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Speaker 3: in downtown New York and I was a kid. You know,

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Speaker 3: there was no My idea of what was a head

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Speaker 3: was infinite, Like you don't know where where life is

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Speaker 3: going to go when you're nineteen, and you assume it's

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Speaker 3: going to go to all the places you wanted to write.

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Speaker 3: That's just the assumption. Nobody assumes that you're going to

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Speaker 3: die a year later, or that you're going to get sick,

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Speaker 3: or some tragedy is going to befall you that happens

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Speaker 3: to other people. Your immortal life is stretching out ahead

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Speaker 3: of you as just infinite possibilities. That's true whether you're

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Speaker 3: in college, or whether you're you know, working in a bar,

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Speaker 3: or whether you're a model. To me, you know, yes,

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Speaker 3: of course my job seemed very glamorous, you know, to

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Speaker 3: the person wasn't in it, but really it was. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a physical job. It's one that doesn't require a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of thinking. It requires a lot of sort

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Speaker 3: of physical aptitude. In some ways, I always thought it

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Speaker 3: was a bit like being good at a sport. So

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Speaker 3: there's a certain kind of like physical wisdom, physical intelligence

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Speaker 3: to the job. It's sweaty and a little painful at times,

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Speaker 3: but that's really about it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've said that models are always called girls,

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Speaker 1: and there's a reason that the modeling industry likes girls

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Speaker 1: to be young, and it's partly because of how you look,

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Speaker 1: but that's not all of it. Can you explain why

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Speaker 1: models are girls?

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, and I do think both of those are

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Speaker 3: probably equally as important. The number one thing, really is

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Speaker 3: that light bounces off differently from young, smooth skin, and

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Speaker 3: it looks better on film. That's just the way it is.

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Speaker 3: And the second and this didn't dawn on me, and

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Speaker 3: I think until I was writing the essay for my

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Speaker 3: book was Oh, girls are so much easier to manipulate,

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Speaker 3: aren't they. You know, as a girl, you grow up

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Speaker 3: and you are reared to believe that you're supposed to please,

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Speaker 3: that you're supposed to be nice, and they can really

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Speaker 3: take advantage of that when you're also renting your body

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Speaker 3: out as a canvas because there's really no limits. You know,

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Speaker 3: an obliging young girl will do as she's told.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of much older men that ran

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Speaker 1: that industry. Some of those men have been charged with

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Speaker 1: sexual assault? Was it the wild West? Like through what

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Speaker 1: we know now? Like I know you say that it

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Speaker 1: just was what it was and you didn't question it.

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Speaker 1: But looking through the twenty twenty four prism back at

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Speaker 1: that time, what was it like? That would be horrifying

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Speaker 1: to people today.

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Speaker 3: You know, well, you just answered your own question. It

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Speaker 3: was the wild West, you know, looking back at it

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Speaker 3: through the prism of twenty twenty four, there were no rules.

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Speaker 3: There were no rules, There were no laws, there were

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Speaker 3: no protections. It was you know, you arrived, you got

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Speaker 3: tossed in the pool, and if you were strong enough,

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Speaker 3: you swam, and if you weren't, you synk and that

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Speaker 3: was pretty much all there was to it. I remember

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Speaker 3: this instance, you know, years later, I was probably in

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Speaker 3: my forties and my girlfriend, who was also a model,

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Speaker 3: and I sat around and we were watching Oprah and

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Speaker 3: Oprah's talking about sexual harassments in the workplace. My girlfriend

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Speaker 3: and I are sort of looking at it and we're

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Speaker 3: both kind of snickering, and when the episode ends, we

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Speaker 3: sort of turn to each other and we go, sexual harassment, please,

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Speaker 3: that's called compliments. And we literally had absolutely zero empathy

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Speaker 3: towards the victims of sexual harassment, because that was our

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Speaker 3: entire life, that was our livelihood. It was learning how

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Speaker 3: to fend it off. No, you couldn't be in the

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Speaker 3: business if you got upset by men proposing to your

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Speaker 3: women proposing to you whatever, people proposing to you that

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Speaker 3: were twice your age.

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Speaker 1: When you say proposing you may try and have sex

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Speaker 1: with you.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, of course you know sexual propositions, yes, and

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Speaker 3: that we weren't proposing. Mary.

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Speaker 1: So you turn up at a job, and how would

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Speaker 1: you be treated.

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Speaker 3: You would be treated for the most part, you would

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Speaker 3: be treated as an object. You come to the job

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Speaker 3: and you sort of check your humanity at the door.

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Speaker 3: It is sort of understood that as a model, you

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Speaker 3: are a blank canvas. You have rented yourself out so

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Speaker 3: that they can paint you, spray you and pin you

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Speaker 3: and make you wear whatever needs to be worn. And

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Speaker 3: your job is to just let them do it. Let

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Speaker 3: them do it, and then, you know, like I said,

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Speaker 3: your bit of physical activity make it all look like

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Speaker 3: you're you know, like it's the greatest day ever. And

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Speaker 3: then you get a lot of money for it and

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Speaker 3: you go home.

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Speaker 1: Did your fame give you more power? When you became

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Speaker 1: pulling apart scover and you were the face of Veste Laura.

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Speaker 1: Did things change for you then?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean obviously being famous, you know, changes everything

287
00:16:31,247 --> 00:16:36,927
Speaker 3: and everybody you know you can't. Fame makes everything much

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Speaker 3: easier because when you are famous, they want you more

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Speaker 3: than you want them. So it of course it gives

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Speaker 3: you power and then you get to decide which As

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Speaker 3: a young woman and as a young woman model, it

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Speaker 3: was a sort of a heaatey feeling because it's not

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Speaker 3: a it's not a feeling that you were used to.

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Speaker 3: You know, usually you're really just the object that's being

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Speaker 3: kind of pushed around. Once you get famous, you are

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Speaker 3: on top of the heap and you get you get

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Speaker 3: to make choices. That's the one good thing about today

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Speaker 3: and social media is that that young women you have

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Speaker 3: that voice. You can go on Instagram, you can go

300
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Speaker 3: on TikTok or whatever, and if a photographer mistreated you,

301
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Speaker 3: you have a voice. You can go out there and

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Speaker 3: go this is what happened today and they will be

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Speaker 3: in trouble. But we didn't have that.

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Speaker 1: What did miss treatment look like as a model?

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Speaker 3: I mean it really it could be anything. If you

306
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Speaker 3: imagine treating a young woman as an object, putting her

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Speaker 3: into dangerous physical situations. You know, if you don't sleep

308
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Speaker 3: with this photographer, you're not going to get hired again.

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Speaker 3: If you're not nice to this one, you might not

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Speaker 3: you know, he's not going to hire for you for

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Speaker 3: this job. I mean that sort of that overhanging thing

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Speaker 3: of having to please everyone and yet try not to

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Speaker 3: completely be obliterated by them. That's a pretty tricky thing

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Speaker 3: for a woman. And never mind a teenager.

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Speaker 1: You were nineteen when you met Rick, and he was

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Speaker 1: the lead singer of the Cars, a big rock star.

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Speaker 1: And you say that from the moment you met and

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Speaker 1: watched him walk across the room to you, you knew

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Speaker 1: you'd marry him. How did you know that?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 3: Oh, dear god. Okay, So at nineteen, I thought it

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Speaker 3: was an affair that was just you know, it was like,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's Rome and Juliet. You meet your perfect soulmate,

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Speaker 3: and you instantly know across the crowded room that this

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Speaker 3: is the person you've been waiting for.

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Speaker 1: I'm nineteen, right, he's married with kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well he forgot to mention that. For a little while,

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Speaker 3: you know, I thought it's a past life connection. We

330
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Speaker 3: had been together in a past life and we were

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Speaker 3: meeting each other again. I mean it was all just

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Speaker 3: you know, you cue the violence. It was incredibly romantic

333
00:19:02,927 --> 00:19:06,247
Speaker 3: and potent. Of course, Now as a fifty nine year

334
00:19:06,247 --> 00:19:09,927
Speaker 3: old woman looking back, I think, oh, he ass right.

335
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Speaker 3: That's called childhood trauma is coming back to bite your ass.

336
00:19:14,487 --> 00:19:17,647
Speaker 3: You are seeing a person that is reminding you of

337
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Speaker 3: everything familiar to you, aka your parents, the people that

338
00:19:20,927 --> 00:19:25,407
Speaker 3: raise you, oftentimes the worst part of them. You're seeing

339
00:19:25,447 --> 00:19:27,967
Speaker 3: it right there in front of you, and you go, there,

340
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Speaker 3: you are, I recognize you right this way.

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Speaker 1: What was it about Rick that reminded you of your parents?

342
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Speaker 1: Because your parents essentially abandoned you and you were three

343
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Speaker 1: in Czechoslovakia to escape to Sweden. They left you with

344
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Speaker 1: your grandmother. What reminded you of them? In hidden because

345
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Speaker 1: he hadn't abandoned you yet that was to come.

346
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Speaker 3: That was to come. Like my father, well, first of all,

347
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Speaker 3: age wise, he was not far from the age of

348
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Speaker 3: my father. He was tall, he was slim, He had

349
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Speaker 3: you know, blue pale eyes and black hair. That's the

350
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Speaker 3: way my father looked, big ears. He was talented like

351
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Speaker 3: my father, He knew it all like my father. And

352
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Speaker 3: he had quite a narcissistic personality like my father, so.

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Speaker 1: He was familiar to you. And yet oh yeah, he

354
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Speaker 1: loved you and shone all his attention on you, at

355
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Speaker 1: least at first.

356
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Speaker 3: Yes, he did. Rip didn't really want me to model

357
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Speaker 3: because he didn't want to share me with anybody, which

358
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Speaker 3: I thought was, you know, such an incredibly romantic thing

359
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Speaker 3: to do and say. I didn't realize quite how isolated

360
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Speaker 3: I would get by acquiescing to his wishes.

361
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Speaker 1: What were your ambitions for your career and what were

362
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Speaker 1: Rick's ambitions for you?

363
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Speaker 3: I thought writing was really something that I loved to do.

364
00:20:53,367 --> 00:20:57,047
Speaker 3: Was a when I write, I lose time. That's how

365
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Speaker 3: I know that it's something that I really love to do.

366
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Speaker 3: And so I thought I would sort of increasingly go

367
00:21:03,487 --> 00:21:07,887
Speaker 3: towards the writing part, you know, how to learn how

368
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Speaker 3: to punctuate things, because I had only gone to school

369
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Speaker 3: to grade nine in Sweden, and so now, of course

370
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Speaker 3: I'm in the United States, and you know, I have

371
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Speaker 3: to sort of learn English and all of that with

372
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Speaker 3: English grammar. So I thought, you know, my success as

373
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Speaker 3: a model was beyond even my wild as dreams, because

374
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Speaker 3: I had never even dared to dream that I would

375
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Speaker 3: become a successful model. That just seemed so utterly crazy.

376
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Speaker 3: So I just felt like it happened to me, and

377
00:21:38,647 --> 00:21:42,247
Speaker 3: like I didn't really have much to do with it. It

378
00:21:41,767 --> 00:21:44,727
Speaker 3: was just something that was you know, It's like somebody

379
00:21:44,807 --> 00:21:47,727
Speaker 3: gives you a million dollars here and you're like, wait what.

380
00:21:48,607 --> 00:21:52,047
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware I deserved it, or I had earned it,

381
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Speaker 3: or I hadn't even wanted it.

382
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Speaker 1: You said that Rick didn't want you to model because

383
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Speaker 1: he didn't want to share you. He didn't want you

384
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Speaker 1: to act. He didn't want you to model. You acted

385
00:22:01,047 --> 00:22:04,167
Speaker 1: in a movie called Her Alibi with Tom Selleck around

386
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Speaker 1: that time.

387
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was my shitty movie.

388
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Speaker 1: I don't know if it was shitty it was, you know,

389
00:22:08,367 --> 00:22:10,167
Speaker 1: it was a mood, was what it was. But you

390
00:22:10,207 --> 00:22:12,807
Speaker 1: didn't have a great experience on the set and Rick

391
00:22:12,967 --> 00:22:15,607
Speaker 1: was there. You didn't have a lot of chemistry with Tom.

392
00:22:16,127 --> 00:22:19,327
Speaker 1: Rick consisted on going to work with you, which obviously

393
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Speaker 1: now we look at that and say that's incredibly controlling

394
00:22:22,807 --> 00:22:25,927
Speaker 1: and a big red flag. But at the time, how

395
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Speaker 1: did you feel about it?

396
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Speaker 3: Well, at the time, I thought, well, you know what,

397
00:22:30,607 --> 00:22:33,767
Speaker 3: I was a little bit It's funny because if you

398
00:22:33,967 --> 00:22:37,247
Speaker 3: really listened to your body, your body was sort of

399
00:22:37,287 --> 00:22:39,407
Speaker 3: trying to give me a hint that it wasn't right.

400
00:22:39,927 --> 00:22:44,007
Speaker 3: It felt awkward. I couldn't really work, I couldn't really

401
00:22:44,047 --> 00:22:47,047
Speaker 3: do my job with my boyfriend sort of breathing down

402
00:22:47,127 --> 00:22:50,407
Speaker 3: my neck and telling me that I shouldn't get so close,

403
00:22:50,967 --> 00:22:53,847
Speaker 3: you know, and don't look so into him, like I'm

404
00:22:53,847 --> 00:22:58,087
Speaker 3: doing a movie I'm supposed to be into him. That

405
00:22:58,207 --> 00:23:01,207
Speaker 3: was difficult and we had a lot of arguments during

406
00:23:01,247 --> 00:23:04,367
Speaker 3: that movie because of all the things that Rick thought

407
00:23:04,407 --> 00:23:06,647
Speaker 3: that I should do instead of the things that the

408
00:23:06,767 --> 00:23:09,807
Speaker 3: director thought out, and I should do it like my

409
00:23:09,927 --> 00:23:13,567
Speaker 3: own personality, my own wishes were sort of completely immaterial.

410
00:23:13,727 --> 00:23:17,727
Speaker 3: I was just like everybody's you know, service, and the

411
00:23:17,767 --> 00:23:20,807
Speaker 3: director wants this, the producer wants this, and my boyfriend

412
00:23:20,807 --> 00:23:23,887
Speaker 3: wants this, and like what do I want? I don't

413
00:23:23,887 --> 00:23:26,327
Speaker 3: get to say wow. There wasn't enough time for me

414
00:23:26,407 --> 00:23:28,127
Speaker 3: to have a say. So it was kind of a

415
00:23:28,167 --> 00:23:34,167
Speaker 3: horrible experience for all of those reasons, you know, And

416
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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, nothing was more important than love

417
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Speaker 3: to me. I felt like I had missed out on

418
00:23:40,527 --> 00:23:46,807
Speaker 3: being loved, you know, being unconditionally loved feeling like somebody

419
00:23:46,927 --> 00:23:49,727
Speaker 3: really heard me for who I was, which was a

420
00:23:49,767 --> 00:23:54,407
Speaker 3: person that wasn't just looks but actually had, you know,

421
00:23:54,807 --> 00:23:57,807
Speaker 3: a mind and a soul. And maybe it wasn't as

422
00:23:57,807 --> 00:24:01,487
Speaker 3: attractive as my physical one, but God, I wanted somebody

423
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Speaker 3: to see it.

424
00:24:03,007 --> 00:24:03,927
Speaker 1: Did Rick say it?

425
00:24:04,487 --> 00:24:10,007
Speaker 4: Well, he made me feel like he did, because because

426
00:24:10,047 --> 00:24:13,807
Speaker 4: he criticized me quite often, and that made me feel

427
00:24:14,127 --> 00:24:14,647
Speaker 4: at ease.

428
00:24:14,727 --> 00:24:17,327
Speaker 3: That put me at ease. I thought that meant that

429
00:24:17,407 --> 00:24:22,047
Speaker 3: he really saw me the little girl, the little the

430
00:24:22,127 --> 00:24:24,567
Speaker 3: girl that deserved to be left by her parents, that

431
00:24:24,647 --> 00:24:27,647
Speaker 3: a little bad seed that I was. He knew that

432
00:24:27,687 --> 00:24:30,607
Speaker 3: I was bad, and he loved me anyway, So it

433
00:24:30,607 --> 00:24:34,087
Speaker 3: felt very reassuring. Oh yeah, you can say a lot

434
00:24:34,127 --> 00:24:34,767
Speaker 3: of harpy.

435
00:24:35,047 --> 00:24:39,247
Speaker 1: That's so toxic, Paulina. What did he like? What kind

436
00:24:39,247 --> 00:24:40,007
Speaker 1: of criticism?

437
00:24:40,487 --> 00:24:43,727
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, just little things about the way I

438
00:24:43,847 --> 00:24:46,327
Speaker 3: would dress, or the way I would eat, or the

439
00:24:46,367 --> 00:24:49,087
Speaker 3: way I would do something that annoyed him or that

440
00:24:49,247 --> 00:24:51,967
Speaker 3: wasn't lady like. You know, there was there was always

441
00:24:51,967 --> 00:24:53,287
Speaker 3: something to criticize.

442
00:24:53,567 --> 00:24:59,207
Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds very much like a man who doesn't

443
00:24:59,887 --> 00:25:04,127
Speaker 1: want a woman to leave him. So he slowly chips

444
00:25:04,127 --> 00:25:05,287
Speaker 1: away at her self esteem.

445
00:25:05,847 --> 00:25:08,327
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that he I don't know that

446
00:25:08,407 --> 00:25:10,407
Speaker 3: he was conscious of what he was doing. I think

447
00:25:10,447 --> 00:25:13,647
Speaker 3: that he really felt like I did. That we had

448
00:25:13,647 --> 00:25:20,487
Speaker 3: this love, this amazing, you know, breathtaking, earth shattering love connection.

449
00:25:21,007 --> 00:25:24,447
Speaker 3: And yes, and I was much younger, and yes, I

450
00:25:24,447 --> 00:25:27,407
Speaker 3: could have anybody that I wanted. And yes, he was

451
00:25:27,487 --> 00:25:30,887
Speaker 3: afraid that he might lose me if he's not at

452
00:25:30,927 --> 00:25:31,767
Speaker 3: constant guard.

453
00:25:34,327 --> 00:25:37,487
Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, time takes a toll on Polina and

454
00:25:37,567 --> 00:25:41,807
Speaker 1: Rick's marriage, and Paulina feels more invisible than ever before.

455
00:25:45,087 --> 00:25:48,167
Speaker 1: In the last few years of your marriage before he died,

456
00:25:48,767 --> 00:25:50,127
Speaker 1: where were you at as a couple.

457
00:25:51,127 --> 00:25:55,807
Speaker 3: Oh, we were in a desert, blundering around alone, starving, thirsty,

458
00:25:56,127 --> 00:26:00,807
Speaker 3: and having absolutely lost sight of having once been the couple.

459
00:26:01,287 --> 00:26:02,047
Speaker 3: It was terrible.

460
00:26:02,927 --> 00:26:07,767
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was in his seventies. You had turned fifty.

461
00:26:07,847 --> 00:26:11,047
Speaker 1: You're in your early fifties. That's a really difficult time

462
00:26:11,087 --> 00:26:15,567
Speaker 1: for any woman, speaking from experience. You become invisible, the

463
00:26:15,607 --> 00:26:18,847
Speaker 1: world tells you invisible. Your self esteem drops. And I'm

464
00:26:18,887 --> 00:26:23,327
Speaker 1: not a woman whose career was based on how I looked.

465
00:26:23,367 --> 00:26:26,287
Speaker 1: And I really struggled. I still struggle in some ways.

466
00:26:26,327 --> 00:26:30,087
Speaker 1: I think many of us do, because it's when you're

467
00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:33,247
Speaker 1: told you're not fuckable anymore, exactly in a society that

468
00:26:33,487 --> 00:26:37,567
Speaker 1: only values fuckibility in women. And I think that the

469
00:26:37,647 --> 00:26:40,327
Speaker 1: role of your partner, if you have one at that time,

470
00:26:40,487 --> 00:26:43,367
Speaker 1: is really interesting. How did Rick make you feel as

471
00:26:43,407 --> 00:26:44,087
Speaker 1: you got older?

472
00:26:44,767 --> 00:26:47,087
Speaker 3: Well, see that this is a part of the problem.

473
00:26:47,127 --> 00:26:49,487
Speaker 3: I don't think again, I don't think he meant to.

474
00:26:49,767 --> 00:26:53,287
Speaker 3: I think he was aging and he was incapable of

475
00:26:53,407 --> 00:26:56,887
Speaker 3: sharing vulnerability with me. I think he felt like he

476
00:26:56,967 --> 00:27:01,007
Speaker 3: had to be sort of the man, the masculine, you know,

477
00:27:01,847 --> 00:27:04,847
Speaker 3: the force, and so he couldn't be weak, He couldn't

478
00:27:04,887 --> 00:27:07,447
Speaker 3: be vulnerable with me, and so he couldn't tell me

479
00:27:07,567 --> 00:27:11,847
Speaker 3: that he was maybe not feeling the same way, or

480
00:27:11,967 --> 00:27:15,887
Speaker 3: that physically things were more difficult, and instead he sort

481
00:27:15,887 --> 00:27:19,007
Speaker 3: of turned it against me, you know, like he would

482
00:27:20,087 --> 00:27:22,647
Speaker 3: This was a very ugly thing he told me once,

483
00:27:22,727 --> 00:27:25,287
Speaker 3: which is hard to forget, that it would fuck me

484
00:27:25,287 --> 00:27:27,567
Speaker 3: if I wasn't such a bitch. And this is not

485
00:27:27,647 --> 00:27:30,367
Speaker 3: something that I talk a lot about because of my children.

486
00:27:30,127 --> 00:27:33,487
Speaker 3: I don't really want my children to know that. But

487
00:27:33,687 --> 00:27:36,487
Speaker 3: of course here I just said it. So he turned

488
00:27:36,487 --> 00:27:38,927
Speaker 3: it on me. You know that he didn't desire me

489
00:27:39,047 --> 00:27:44,207
Speaker 3: because I was such a naggy, horrible person. And of

490
00:27:44,247 --> 00:27:48,127
Speaker 3: course I was a naggy, horrible person because I was

491
00:27:48,167 --> 00:27:51,607
Speaker 3: married to somebody who no longer He had never really

492
00:27:51,647 --> 00:27:54,567
Speaker 3: heard me, But now he didn't see me either, so

493
00:27:55,007 --> 00:27:59,167
Speaker 3: I didn't know how to go about getting his attention. Besides,

494
00:27:59,207 --> 00:28:01,927
Speaker 3: you know the obvious. At first, you go, let's go

495
00:28:02,007 --> 00:28:05,527
Speaker 3: to therapy, let's read these self help books, Let's go

496
00:28:05,647 --> 00:28:10,007
Speaker 3: on vacation. But when your husband says, now do therapy,

497
00:28:10,047 --> 00:28:12,447
Speaker 3: you go on vacation. I'm fine. I'm just gonna wait

498
00:28:12,527 --> 00:28:16,927
Speaker 3: until you return to the woman I met, the nineteen

499
00:28:17,007 --> 00:28:19,687
Speaker 3: year old girl. That's kind of not gonna happen.

500
00:28:20,327 --> 00:28:24,207
Speaker 1: Did he not like you finding your voice and having opinions?

501
00:28:24,407 --> 00:28:28,487
Speaker 3: And no, I think he needed to be adored, and

502
00:28:28,567 --> 00:28:31,607
Speaker 3: I think a fifty year old woman has possibly a

503
00:28:31,647 --> 00:28:35,807
Speaker 3: hard time adoring. Yeah, you've gone through it. You know,

504
00:28:36,127 --> 00:28:38,607
Speaker 3: you've gone through life. You know better, and just that

505
00:28:38,767 --> 00:28:41,207
Speaker 3: blind adoration is no longer what we do.

506
00:28:42,167 --> 00:28:44,607
Speaker 1: What was the turning point for you? What made you

507
00:28:44,727 --> 00:28:48,447
Speaker 1: say I'm out, I can't do this anymore? And was

508
00:28:48,487 --> 00:28:51,087
Speaker 1: it a slow dawning thing or did you actually have

509
00:28:51,127 --> 00:28:51,847
Speaker 1: the conversation.

510
00:28:52,487 --> 00:28:56,087
Speaker 3: It was a very slow sort of dissolution of and

511
00:28:56,127 --> 00:29:00,767
Speaker 3: again me sort of coming back over and over and saying, please, please,

512
00:29:00,967 --> 00:29:05,807
Speaker 3: I'm dying. I am so lonely. Isn't there anything we

513
00:29:05,927 --> 00:29:09,527
Speaker 3: can do? And so at one point, after years of course,

514
00:29:09,567 --> 00:29:12,687
Speaker 3: you know, you don't leave the man that you think

515
00:29:12,727 --> 00:29:15,127
Speaker 3: you're going to stay with for the rest of your life,

516
00:29:15,127 --> 00:29:17,247
Speaker 3: and you have children with you know, on a whim,

517
00:29:17,687 --> 00:29:21,007
Speaker 3: it was years. It was seven eight years of this

518
00:29:21,247 --> 00:29:24,327
Speaker 3: constant trying, and when I finally decided that I couldn't

519
00:29:24,327 --> 00:29:27,967
Speaker 3: take it anymore, and I went downstairs to tell him.

520
00:29:28,767 --> 00:29:31,247
Speaker 3: I still was hoping that maybe it would wake him up,

521
00:29:31,287 --> 00:29:33,447
Speaker 3: and he just kind of shrugged and went, well, okay,

522
00:29:34,087 --> 00:29:35,287
Speaker 3: that's what you want. Fine.

523
00:29:35,407 --> 00:29:40,847
Speaker 1: You stayed living together with your boys, who were adults.

524
00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:42,847
Speaker 3: By that time, in their late teens.

525
00:29:43,007 --> 00:29:45,727
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there hadn't been infidelity in.

526
00:29:45,727 --> 00:29:48,407
Speaker 3: Your marriage, No, not as far as I know.

527
00:29:48,647 --> 00:29:52,047
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you met someone and you started dating, and

528
00:29:52,127 --> 00:29:56,087
Speaker 1: Rick knew and your kids had met this guy and

529
00:29:56,127 --> 00:29:58,967
Speaker 1: it was all pretty open. What were relations like between

530
00:29:59,007 --> 00:30:01,407
Speaker 1: you and him when you had this boyfriend?

531
00:30:02,207 --> 00:30:06,847
Speaker 3: Well, again, I don't know, because at this point he

532
00:30:06,927 --> 00:30:10,767
Speaker 3: had already stopped talking to me or fighting or really

533
00:30:10,807 --> 00:30:14,727
Speaker 3: saying anything of substance. So I had no idea. He

534
00:30:15,127 --> 00:30:18,367
Speaker 3: acted as though it was all good, it's fine.

535
00:30:18,647 --> 00:30:20,807
Speaker 1: So you sort of became flatmates essentially.

536
00:30:21,287 --> 00:30:24,687
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were absolutely roommates, and I thought we made

537
00:30:24,767 --> 00:30:26,247
Speaker 3: okay roommates.

538
00:30:26,647 --> 00:30:29,487
Speaker 1: You had separate bedrooms, you hadn't had sex for years.

539
00:30:30,047 --> 00:30:33,247
Speaker 1: It wasn't really anything different except in your mind and

540
00:30:33,287 --> 00:30:35,487
Speaker 1: in your heart. Yeah, you're right. I was fifty two,

541
00:30:35,647 --> 00:30:37,727
Speaker 1: had not been touched by my husband for years, and

542
00:30:37,767 --> 00:30:40,007
Speaker 1: felt invisible. All I wanted to know was if I

543
00:30:40,127 --> 00:30:42,727
Speaker 1: was ever going to have sex again. What was the

544
00:30:42,767 --> 00:30:44,807
Speaker 1: sex like when you finally had it again.

545
00:30:45,487 --> 00:30:50,127
Speaker 3: It was incredible to find that my body was still working.

546
00:30:50,487 --> 00:30:55,087
Speaker 3: It was so much fun. I was so delighted that,

547
00:30:55,647 --> 00:30:58,047
Speaker 3: you know, like, oh my god, it still works, and

548
00:30:58,647 --> 00:31:00,847
Speaker 3: you know, and of course, when you first have sex

549
00:31:00,927 --> 00:31:04,567
Speaker 3: after thirty three years of having sex with only one person,

550
00:31:05,047 --> 00:31:07,087
Speaker 3: it's a little odd, so you have to get used

551
00:31:07,087 --> 00:31:10,167
Speaker 3: to a new system. But you know, I've always really

552
00:31:10,327 --> 00:31:13,247
Speaker 3: liked sex. I thought sex is a really great thing

553
00:31:13,447 --> 00:31:18,207
Speaker 3: to do. It's a fun, healthy hobby to have so

554
00:31:18,607 --> 00:31:21,407
Speaker 3: and also kind of an important part of a relationship,

555
00:31:21,607 --> 00:31:25,007
Speaker 3: you know, to keep you close, and I still go

556
00:31:25,087 --> 00:31:27,407
Speaker 3: by it. I always said to my girlfriends, if sex

557
00:31:27,567 --> 00:31:30,247
Speaker 3: is not the best sex you're having that you've ever

558
00:31:30,287 --> 00:31:33,447
Speaker 3: had with your partner, you're going to look for it

559
00:31:33,527 --> 00:31:36,367
Speaker 3: somewhere else. And it's like other things, like if you

560
00:31:36,527 --> 00:31:40,047
Speaker 3: like museums, your partner doesn't have to love museums. You know,

561
00:31:40,087 --> 00:31:42,047
Speaker 3: you can go to with a girlfriend to a museum,

562
00:31:42,047 --> 00:31:45,007
Speaker 3: but you can't have sex with your girlfriend. So the

563
00:31:45,127 --> 00:31:47,287
Speaker 3: partner that you're going to pick you need to love

564
00:31:47,367 --> 00:31:50,767
Speaker 3: having sex with them. So I really enjoyed having sex

565
00:31:50,807 --> 00:31:54,407
Speaker 3: for the brief moment that it lasted before my menopause.

566
00:31:54,767 --> 00:31:59,007
Speaker 3: Hormones really started flying and all sorts of hot things

567
00:31:59,047 --> 00:32:02,727
Speaker 3: started happening to my body. But then this man sort

568
00:32:02,727 --> 00:32:05,647
Speaker 3: of walked away from me and COVID happened. So I

569
00:32:05,727 --> 00:32:06,367
Speaker 3: was the end of that.

570
00:32:07,087 --> 00:32:09,047
Speaker 1: You say, all sorts of things happened to your body.

571
00:32:09,687 --> 00:32:12,407
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you before that happened, did

572
00:32:12,487 --> 00:32:16,047
Speaker 1: having sex again make you feel differently about yourself? Because

573
00:32:16,047 --> 00:32:18,487
Speaker 1: it seems like you were in a pretty low place

574
00:32:18,527 --> 00:32:20,727
Speaker 1: self esteem wise, as many of us are as we

575
00:32:20,807 --> 00:32:21,407
Speaker 1: hit fifty.

576
00:32:22,007 --> 00:32:24,567
Speaker 3: You know, I'm thank you for asking me. Nobody asks

577
00:32:24,567 --> 00:32:27,487
Speaker 3: about sex ever in America. It's such a shame because

578
00:32:27,527 --> 00:32:32,167
Speaker 3: it's such an important part of the one's life. Yes, yes,

579
00:32:32,567 --> 00:32:36,447
Speaker 3: this man that I met made me feel desirable, at

580
00:32:36,527 --> 00:32:40,487
Speaker 3: least in the very beginning, and it felt incredible to

581
00:32:40,527 --> 00:32:44,527
Speaker 3: be desired. I thought, Oh, it's not over yet. Life

582
00:32:44,567 --> 00:32:47,887
Speaker 3: is not over yet. Yeah, I can still feel this way.

583
00:32:47,487 --> 00:32:50,327
Speaker 3: I think the most wonderful thing was that I knew

584
00:32:50,327 --> 00:32:53,167
Speaker 3: that I could feel this way and that my body

585
00:32:53,207 --> 00:32:56,887
Speaker 3: could still feel this way, and so it was immensely

586
00:32:56,967 --> 00:33:00,767
Speaker 3: exciting at first. But of course, you know, because I

587
00:33:00,927 --> 00:33:05,127
Speaker 3: was so thirsty wandering through the desert, I did go

588
00:33:05,207 --> 00:33:08,567
Speaker 3: for the first guy who showed any interest and should

589
00:33:08,567 --> 00:33:09,207
Speaker 3: not have done that.

590
00:33:10,647 --> 00:33:13,087
Speaker 1: You say that you've got to have the best sex

591
00:33:13,127 --> 00:33:15,207
Speaker 1: you ever had in marriage, but I think also we

592
00:33:15,247 --> 00:33:18,167
Speaker 1: can all agree not every sexual experience you have within

593
00:33:18,207 --> 00:33:20,887
Speaker 1: a marriage or within a long term relationship is always

594
00:33:20,927 --> 00:33:21,767
Speaker 1: the best sex you.

595
00:33:22,607 --> 00:33:26,527
Speaker 3: No, all of it is going to be terrible, that's fine. Yeah, yes,

596
00:33:26,807 --> 00:33:29,767
Speaker 3: and someone is going to be really boring, that's all fine.

597
00:33:30,367 --> 00:33:33,087
Speaker 1: Did you find that menopause really hit your sex drive?

598
00:33:33,767 --> 00:33:37,407
Speaker 3: I was on the pill in my late forties four

599
00:33:37,527 --> 00:33:42,207
Speaker 3: perimenopausal symptoms which were driving me crazy and with a pill.

600
00:33:42,247 --> 00:33:44,967
Speaker 3: It sort of righted itself and it felt fine. And then,

601
00:33:45,527 --> 00:33:49,047
Speaker 3: unbeknownst to me, I also had fibroids, and at some

602
00:33:49,167 --> 00:33:51,807
Speaker 3: point in my fifties, of course, just when I meet

603
00:33:51,887 --> 00:33:55,367
Speaker 3: this new guy and restarting my sex life, I start

604
00:33:55,407 --> 00:33:58,567
Speaker 3: hemorrhaging like crazy, and you know, like hemorrhaging to the

605
00:33:58,607 --> 00:34:00,167
Speaker 3: point where you're like, oh, you might have to have

606
00:34:00,207 --> 00:34:03,807
Speaker 3: a blood transfusion because it's like all my blood is

607
00:34:03,847 --> 00:34:04,807
Speaker 3: being drained out.

608
00:34:05,087 --> 00:34:07,807
Speaker 1: That's sexy, really hot, yeah, so hot.

609
00:34:07,927 --> 00:34:11,167
Speaker 3: And so I had to quit take the pill, which

610
00:34:11,207 --> 00:34:16,647
Speaker 3: meant no hormones, which meant complete readjustment to wait, where

611
00:34:17,007 --> 00:34:20,527
Speaker 3: what is going on here? And then my husband dies,

612
00:34:20,567 --> 00:34:23,127
Speaker 3: my boyfriend leaves me, and COVID begins. So I have

613
00:34:23,407 --> 00:34:24,727
Speaker 3: no fucking idea.

614
00:34:24,967 --> 00:34:28,087
Speaker 1: Oh my god, which was what as if menopause isn't

615
00:34:28,087 --> 00:34:33,327
Speaker 1: hard enough. That's a triple whammy. You really hit a wall, Like,

616
00:34:33,447 --> 00:34:35,527
Speaker 1: just as the green shoots in your life were starting

617
00:34:35,607 --> 00:34:39,727
Speaker 1: up again, your husband died. He died at home, unexpectedly,

618
00:34:39,847 --> 00:34:42,407
Speaker 1: he was recovering from surgery. You were taking care of him.

619
00:34:43,527 --> 00:34:46,487
Speaker 1: That must have been a horrible shock and an incredible

620
00:34:46,527 --> 00:34:48,367
Speaker 1: trauma to discover him.

621
00:34:48,567 --> 00:34:51,247
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean there's not much more to sort

622
00:34:51,287 --> 00:34:55,447
Speaker 3: of say about that. That is something that for me

623
00:34:55,527 --> 00:34:58,807
Speaker 3: and my children, it's going to be the most hideous

624
00:34:58,887 --> 00:35:03,647
Speaker 3: moment of my life forever. Yeah, every time somebody sleeps

625
00:35:03,687 --> 00:35:07,447
Speaker 3: in in the morning, I panic. It's still you know,

626
00:35:07,687 --> 00:35:10,447
Speaker 3: for I think that's going to happen for us. It's

627
00:35:10,487 --> 00:35:11,527
Speaker 3: what happened.

628
00:35:12,847 --> 00:35:16,167
Speaker 1: After this break. The shock of Rick's death followed by

629
00:35:16,207 --> 00:35:23,847
Speaker 1: an even bigger shock for Paulina. The next day, though

630
00:35:24,607 --> 00:35:28,727
Speaker 1: you discovered his will. How did you find out what

631
00:35:28,927 --> 00:35:31,647
Speaker 1: his will said? And why so quickly?

632
00:35:31,887 --> 00:35:34,367
Speaker 3: Well, I guess he died. I think it was. It

633
00:35:34,407 --> 00:35:38,887
Speaker 3: was a Sunday, and on Tuesday, three big envelopes arrived

634
00:35:38,887 --> 00:35:41,487
Speaker 3: at the house, one for me and one for each

635
00:35:41,527 --> 00:35:44,927
Speaker 3: of my sons. And I opened it and it said,

636
00:35:44,967 --> 00:35:47,127
Speaker 3: you know, last Will and Testament. And I was like, uh,

637
00:35:47,447 --> 00:35:51,927
Speaker 3: you know, I'm barely processing anything. Yeah, And I've seen

638
00:35:52,087 --> 00:35:54,567
Speaker 3: this note that sort of stuck in the front on

639
00:35:54,687 --> 00:35:58,647
Speaker 3: top of it, and it just said, in like somebody's handwriting,

640
00:35:58,887 --> 00:36:01,727
Speaker 3: my wife she's not going to inherit anything because she

641
00:36:01,807 --> 00:36:05,847
Speaker 3: abandoned me. And I thought, I'm just I couldn't I

642
00:36:05,887 --> 00:36:08,447
Speaker 3: couldn't comprehend it. I just thought it was like a

643
00:36:08,687 --> 00:36:10,847
Speaker 3: post it note that he had stuck on because he

644
00:36:10,927 --> 00:36:14,847
Speaker 3: was pissed off or was having a bad day, and

645
00:36:14,887 --> 00:36:19,607
Speaker 3: I couldn't really pay attention to it for the amount

646
00:36:19,607 --> 00:36:21,767
Speaker 3: of time until I had to pay attention to it

647
00:36:21,807 --> 00:36:26,327
Speaker 3: because suddenly it became a reality of, Oh, your husband

648
00:36:26,487 --> 00:36:30,807
Speaker 3: does not want you to get half the estate. He

649
00:36:30,847 --> 00:36:34,487
Speaker 3: doesn't want you to get anything, but you know, very

650
00:36:34,567 --> 00:36:38,367
Speaker 3: basic stuff that was still mine because we were still married,

651
00:36:38,487 --> 00:36:42,247
Speaker 3: which were our houses and pension plans.

652
00:36:42,527 --> 00:36:45,287
Speaker 1: That strikes me as an unimaginably cruel thing to do,

653
00:36:45,447 --> 00:36:49,127
Speaker 1: not just to you, but Rick had four children before

654
00:36:49,167 --> 00:36:53,127
Speaker 1: he met you, two by his first partner too, by

655
00:36:53,207 --> 00:36:55,127
Speaker 1: the woman he was married to, and he met you,

656
00:36:55,727 --> 00:36:59,327
Speaker 1: and then you had two sons together. He left everything

657
00:36:59,887 --> 00:37:06,567
Speaker 1: to your two sons that you shared and his middle

658
00:37:06,807 --> 00:37:11,127
Speaker 1: the middle children his first two sons also he cut

659
00:37:11,167 --> 00:37:14,447
Speaker 1: out of the will. Did he have contact and relationships

660
00:37:14,527 --> 00:37:18,167
Speaker 1: with them through their lives? Like, what was that about?

661
00:37:18,487 --> 00:37:21,767
Speaker 3: Yes, he did. He wasn't extremely close to his two

662
00:37:21,847 --> 00:37:25,887
Speaker 3: oldest sons because they hadn't grown up with him, which

663
00:37:26,007 --> 00:37:29,807
Speaker 3: is not their fault. And during our time together that

664
00:37:29,847 --> 00:37:33,007
Speaker 3: we were together, I would sort of try to merge

665
00:37:33,047 --> 00:37:35,887
Speaker 3: the families back together. One of my step sons was

666
00:37:35,927 --> 00:37:39,087
Speaker 3: having very serious drug problems, and so it was a

667
00:37:39,127 --> 00:37:42,607
Speaker 3: little difficult to be close to him because he was,

668
00:37:42,887 --> 00:37:45,727
Speaker 3: you know, not doing well. But the other one, I mean,

669
00:37:45,887 --> 00:37:49,407
Speaker 3: his daughter and his wife were like my closest friends.

670
00:37:49,447 --> 00:37:50,567
Speaker 3: It was it was a mess.

671
00:37:52,087 --> 00:37:54,727
Speaker 1: It was a bomb into a graving family.

672
00:37:54,967 --> 00:37:57,687
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like, you know, he it's one of

673
00:37:57,687 --> 00:38:01,087
Speaker 3: those things where it felt like he just detonated a

674
00:38:01,087 --> 00:38:03,287
Speaker 3: hand grenade in the middle of the family and just

675
00:38:03,407 --> 00:38:07,127
Speaker 3: everything broke. You know, it's like brother against brother, mother

676
00:38:07,207 --> 00:38:09,967
Speaker 3: against sons. It became a shit show because it wasn't

677
00:38:10,047 --> 00:38:13,487
Speaker 3: just oh, I don't have any money to live on.

678
00:38:13,567 --> 00:38:16,087
Speaker 3: I have to sell the houses immediately, you know, I

679
00:38:16,087 --> 00:38:18,567
Speaker 3: have to figure out a way of staying afloat what

680
00:38:18,607 --> 00:38:21,167
Speaker 3: am I going to do? But it was also pitying

681
00:38:21,207 --> 00:38:24,127
Speaker 3: brother against brother because my kids got much more than

682
00:38:24,167 --> 00:38:27,647
Speaker 3: the middle kids and all these kids got nothing and

683
00:38:28,087 --> 00:38:31,007
Speaker 3: they've you know, of course, they felt like their father

684
00:38:31,367 --> 00:38:35,327
Speaker 3: like didn't acknowledge, like he didn't just disinherit them monetarily.

685
00:38:35,367 --> 00:38:38,847
Speaker 3: It's like he wasn't their father, Like at the very end,

686
00:38:38,927 --> 00:38:41,407
Speaker 3: he just scratched them out of his life, like they

687
00:38:41,447 --> 00:38:45,607
Speaker 3: never existed. They got nothing, not even the guitar. I

688
00:38:45,647 --> 00:38:50,487
Speaker 3: mean it was cruel. And I know my husband well

689
00:38:50,607 --> 00:38:54,127
Speaker 3: enough to know that all these decisions were made sort

690
00:38:54,167 --> 00:38:57,967
Speaker 3: of flippantly at the moment where he wasn't feeling it,

691
00:38:58,647 --> 00:39:01,527
Speaker 3: you know, when he was like mad at somebody, and

692
00:39:01,567 --> 00:39:03,447
Speaker 3: so he just let oh, that's you know. I never

693
00:39:03,487 --> 00:39:04,367
Speaker 3: want to see them again.

694
00:39:05,207 --> 00:39:10,047
Speaker 1: I can't imagine pulling in such quick succession, the gut

695
00:39:10,047 --> 00:39:15,087
Speaker 1: wrenching grief of losing him, the trauma of finding him,

696
00:39:15,607 --> 00:39:19,887
Speaker 1: and then the betrayal of him doing this to you

697
00:39:20,127 --> 00:39:25,487
Speaker 1: in terms of cutting you out. How is the process

698
00:39:25,487 --> 00:39:30,447
Speaker 1: of grief interrupted by the very understandable fury you must

699
00:39:30,527 --> 00:39:32,647
Speaker 1: have had towards him for what he did, not just

700
00:39:32,687 --> 00:39:37,047
Speaker 1: to you, but to all his children, to your relationships.

701
00:39:37,887 --> 00:39:40,687
Speaker 1: How do you grieve someone you also want to punch

702
00:39:40,687 --> 00:39:41,687
Speaker 1: in the face, I.

703
00:39:41,647 --> 00:39:45,327
Speaker 3: Think, And this is in some ways sad because it

704
00:39:45,407 --> 00:39:49,607
Speaker 3: makes me think how much we as women are willing

705
00:39:49,647 --> 00:39:55,767
Speaker 3: to take on and do take on. Because in that moment,

706
00:39:55,927 --> 00:39:59,927
Speaker 3: when it was all falling down around me, I thought

707
00:40:01,487 --> 00:40:06,007
Speaker 3: my children. I saw my children grieving. They were so

708
00:40:06,727 --> 00:40:13,847
Speaker 3: incredibly upset and shocked, and I thought I have to

709
00:40:13,887 --> 00:40:16,327
Speaker 3: be their mom first of all. First of all, I

710
00:40:16,407 --> 00:40:18,447
Speaker 3: need to be their mom. Yes, I know there are

711
00:40:18,807 --> 00:40:22,727
Speaker 3: practically fully grown men, but my first duty was to

712
00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:25,047
Speaker 3: them as a mother, which meant that I had to

713
00:40:25,087 --> 00:40:27,847
Speaker 3: put aside my grief, and I had to put aside

714
00:40:27,927 --> 00:40:32,247
Speaker 3: my anger, and I had to sort of process their

715
00:40:32,327 --> 00:40:36,247
Speaker 3: grief with them, and so I stored it all inside.

716
00:40:36,767 --> 00:40:40,287
Speaker 3: I think it was very healthy for me, but also

717
00:40:40,367 --> 00:40:43,647
Speaker 3: I felt kind of numb. Honestly, it was so much.

718
00:40:43,887 --> 00:40:46,807
Speaker 3: It was so much to take on that I didn't

719
00:40:46,847 --> 00:40:50,647
Speaker 3: have the space to feel. It was like poisoning.

720
00:40:51,007 --> 00:40:54,047
Speaker 1: You ended up suing his estate for your rightful share

721
00:40:54,087 --> 00:40:57,727
Speaker 1: and was awarded it, thankfully. They must have been some really,

722
00:40:57,767 --> 00:41:00,927
Speaker 1: really tough times, though how long did it go on?

723
00:41:01,047 --> 00:41:02,647
Speaker 3: For two and a half years.

724
00:41:03,727 --> 00:41:06,727
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine how you got through it. But

725
00:41:07,167 --> 00:41:10,927
Speaker 1: what I saw during that time and following you is

726
00:41:11,167 --> 00:41:16,007
Speaker 1: the voice that you rediscovered because you'd been kind of

727
00:41:16,167 --> 00:41:19,847
Speaker 1: invisible in terms of pop culture for a really long time,

728
00:41:20,647 --> 00:41:23,887
Speaker 1: and I imagine that echoed how you felt just inside yourself.

729
00:41:24,967 --> 00:41:29,207
Speaker 1: But I watched you over the last few years emerge,

730
00:41:29,447 --> 00:41:32,407
Speaker 1: and it's been so interesting because there's been the vulnerability,

731
00:41:32,407 --> 00:41:34,687
Speaker 1: but there's also been the defiance in the way you've

732
00:41:35,127 --> 00:41:39,087
Speaker 1: chosen to portray yourself, whether it's showing yourself crying or

733
00:41:39,127 --> 00:41:43,247
Speaker 1: showing yourself naked or showing yourself in underwear. Tell me

734
00:41:43,327 --> 00:41:45,127
Speaker 1: about how it's been received.

735
00:41:45,927 --> 00:41:51,727
Speaker 3: The majority of the reception is overwhelmingly wonderful. And mind you,

736
00:41:52,127 --> 00:41:57,367
Speaker 3: I didn't do this to get a following on Instagram

737
00:41:57,407 --> 00:42:01,127
Speaker 3: and to recapture career like, none of this. You saw

738
00:42:01,167 --> 00:42:04,247
Speaker 3: my crime video, you heard my story. This is where

739
00:42:04,287 --> 00:42:08,207
Speaker 3: I was when I posted a crying video on Instagram.

740
00:42:08,327 --> 00:42:13,847
Speaker 3: I was literally fucked how my life was like I

741
00:42:13,887 --> 00:42:16,287
Speaker 3: had reached the bottom and I thought there was nowhere

742
00:42:16,327 --> 00:42:19,767
Speaker 3: else to go. So, you know, my reaching out on

743
00:42:20,407 --> 00:42:24,447
Speaker 3: social media was just purely out of kind of self preservation.

744
00:42:24,607 --> 00:42:27,527
Speaker 3: Please someone, is there somebody out there? You know, this

745
00:42:27,567 --> 00:42:31,287
Speaker 3: is a message in a bottle tossed into the waves.

746
00:42:31,687 --> 00:42:35,367
Speaker 3: And what happened from that, again, it feels very sort

747
00:42:35,367 --> 00:42:37,807
Speaker 3: of accidentally. I don't feel like I had that much

748
00:42:37,847 --> 00:42:40,727
Speaker 3: to do with it. It was just that, you know,

749
00:42:40,927 --> 00:42:44,007
Speaker 3: like minded women, and it turns out that there are

750
00:42:44,087 --> 00:42:46,887
Speaker 3: so many other women that feel the way I do.

751
00:42:47,167 --> 00:42:50,967
Speaker 3: Maybe their lows weren't quite as low, but maybe they were.

752
00:42:51,287 --> 00:42:54,847
Speaker 3: There's plenty of women that have had horrible things happen.

753
00:42:55,327 --> 00:42:58,447
Speaker 1: What's interesting about you? Pullina, and I agree. I think

754
00:42:58,447 --> 00:43:00,887
Speaker 1: he just wanted to be seen. You know That's how

755
00:43:00,887 --> 00:43:03,007
Speaker 1: I read it. You know, I was watching you try

756
00:43:03,007 --> 00:43:05,087
Speaker 1: to find your identity, as we all do.

757
00:43:05,447 --> 00:43:07,887
Speaker 3: I think I wanted to be heard. I think I

758
00:43:07,927 --> 00:43:11,087
Speaker 3: wanted to be heard more than anything else, because scene

759
00:43:11,207 --> 00:43:14,487
Speaker 3: is overrated. I've been very, very seen, and I didn't.

760
00:43:15,327 --> 00:43:16,847
Speaker 3: It really was about the voice.

761
00:43:16,927 --> 00:43:19,167
Speaker 1: You know, when I say seen, I don't just mean

762
00:43:19,167 --> 00:43:22,167
Speaker 1: you're outside. I mean scene as a person.

763
00:43:22,687 --> 00:43:25,327
Speaker 3: I know I always have to separate the two because

764
00:43:25,367 --> 00:43:28,207
Speaker 3: when we say scene, I think most people think seen

765
00:43:28,327 --> 00:43:31,847
Speaker 3: and heard. But I was seen, yeah, but I wasn't heard.

766
00:43:32,047 --> 00:43:35,207
Speaker 1: And it's almost like Instagram allowed you to synthesize those

767
00:43:35,247 --> 00:43:38,127
Speaker 1: two things, because it wasn't just the images that you

768
00:43:38,127 --> 00:43:40,007
Speaker 1: put out there, which a lot of people put images

769
00:43:40,007 --> 00:43:43,127
Speaker 1: out there, but it was also the incredibly thoughtful, beautifully written,

770
00:43:43,687 --> 00:43:46,607
Speaker 1: lengthy captions that you would write where you would be

771
00:43:46,687 --> 00:43:50,647
Speaker 1: very open about I want male attention because I feel invisible.

772
00:43:50,647 --> 00:43:53,407
Speaker 1: But then I realized that that's fleeting and that I

773
00:43:53,407 --> 00:43:56,487
Speaker 1: should have myself worth from inside. But yes, I do

774
00:43:56,567 --> 00:44:00,007
Speaker 1: feel good when people say my body looks great. But

775
00:44:00,047 --> 00:44:02,607
Speaker 1: then when they say my body looks great for my age,

776
00:44:02,647 --> 00:44:06,007
Speaker 1: that's another level of condescension. So I loved how you

777
00:44:06,007 --> 00:44:07,407
Speaker 1: were playing it all out loud.

778
00:44:07,967 --> 00:44:11,767
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's how I was, And I wasn't holding back.

779
00:44:11,847 --> 00:44:15,167
Speaker 3: I was speaking with no filter about how I feel

780
00:44:15,247 --> 00:44:18,207
Speaker 3: as a woman of a certain age and a woman

781
00:44:18,287 --> 00:44:22,247
Speaker 3: that is relegated to a pastor because she's a certain age.

782
00:44:22,607 --> 00:44:27,567
Speaker 3: And I was, and then suddenly I wasn't anymore. So

783
00:44:28,127 --> 00:44:34,887
Speaker 3: that I guess putting myself out there nakedly vulnerably allowed

784
00:44:34,927 --> 00:44:37,367
Speaker 3: me to be seen again. But again that was not

785
00:44:37,447 --> 00:44:38,127
Speaker 3: the intention.

786
00:44:39,007 --> 00:44:41,407
Speaker 1: What made you draw a line in the sound about

787
00:44:41,487 --> 00:44:43,767
Speaker 1: not having botox? There are decisions that we have to

788
00:44:43,847 --> 00:44:47,807
Speaker 1: take increasingly as we get older about whether we die

789
00:44:47,807 --> 00:44:50,647
Speaker 1: our hair, what that we do to our face. When

790
00:44:50,687 --> 00:44:52,687
Speaker 1: did you draw that line in the sand.

791
00:44:53,607 --> 00:44:57,287
Speaker 3: You know, with Boatoks? Really, I was watching my girlfriends

792
00:44:57,327 --> 00:45:00,367
Speaker 3: get it, you know, early fifties, and I would see

793
00:45:00,367 --> 00:45:02,967
Speaker 3: my girlfriend walk in and I'd go, you look really

794
00:45:03,047 --> 00:45:07,207
Speaker 3: great and like, oh thanks, and they wouldn't tell me

795
00:45:07,247 --> 00:45:10,007
Speaker 3: that they had Boatoks, And you know, an hour or

796
00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:12,927
Speaker 3: two hours later, I'd go, are you okay? Is everything okay?

797
00:45:12,927 --> 00:45:15,887
Speaker 3: Because you, I can't really tell if you're happy to

798
00:45:15,967 --> 00:45:19,207
Speaker 3: see me or like, I could feel that there was

799
00:45:19,247 --> 00:45:23,487
Speaker 3: some emotional barrier that like, I wasn't understanding them as

800
00:45:23,567 --> 00:45:27,887
Speaker 3: well as I usually understand them, and they'd be like, well, botox,

801
00:45:28,327 --> 00:45:31,647
Speaker 3: and I thought, oh, that's what botox does to me.

802
00:45:31,927 --> 00:45:35,447
Speaker 3: It looks wonderful on you, it looks great, but I

803
00:45:35,527 --> 00:45:40,247
Speaker 3: can't tell how you feel. And my face, I've had

804
00:45:40,287 --> 00:45:42,927
Speaker 3: the incredibly good luck of being seen just as a

805
00:45:42,967 --> 00:45:45,287
Speaker 3: beautiful face. I know what that's like. I also know

806
00:45:45,287 --> 00:45:47,967
Speaker 3: how lonely that can make you. That's not what I

807
00:45:48,007 --> 00:45:51,567
Speaker 3: aspire to. I want to use my face for what

808
00:45:51,607 --> 00:45:55,847
Speaker 3: it was meant for, which is tell my story, you know,

809
00:45:56,407 --> 00:46:00,047
Speaker 3: to connect to you. And I just find that that's

810
00:46:00,047 --> 00:46:03,567
Speaker 3: impossible for me with botox. I have a hard time

811
00:46:03,767 --> 00:46:06,047
Speaker 3: with people who have a lot of it, and so

812
00:46:06,167 --> 00:46:08,047
Speaker 3: I don't want to do it myself. That's all.

813
00:46:08,687 --> 00:46:11,967
Speaker 1: So eventually you were ready to date again, and you

814
00:46:12,007 --> 00:46:14,607
Speaker 1: made a deliberate decision to date non famous people. How

815
00:46:14,607 --> 00:46:15,167
Speaker 1: did that go?

816
00:46:15,767 --> 00:46:19,527
Speaker 3: Well? I made a deliberate decision to date anybody who

817
00:46:19,527 --> 00:46:21,527
Speaker 3: would date me, and it turned out to be like

818
00:46:21,687 --> 00:46:23,367
Speaker 3: five mens. So it really wasn't that.

819
00:46:23,367 --> 00:46:27,647
Speaker 1: Much that's very depressing. So what were those dates like.

820
00:46:27,807 --> 00:46:30,967
Speaker 3: Yeah, the initial ones were very sweet. I've met some

821
00:46:31,047 --> 00:46:33,607
Speaker 3: guys that were very sweet, and then some guys that

822
00:46:33,847 --> 00:46:36,847
Speaker 3: were ridiculous. You know, I mean, out of this small

823
00:46:36,967 --> 00:46:41,447
Speaker 3: pool of men, most of them would have a drink

824
00:46:41,607 --> 00:46:45,127
Speaker 3: or two and then suddenly, you know, it would spill

825
00:46:45,167 --> 00:46:47,727
Speaker 3: out of their mouths that oh yeah. I told my

826
00:46:47,847 --> 00:46:52,047
Speaker 3: friends I was like meeting with a supermodel, and then

827
00:46:52,487 --> 00:46:55,727
Speaker 3: right away it's like, okay, well, thank you very much,

828
00:46:55,847 --> 00:46:58,967
Speaker 3: and this will be it will be the only date.

829
00:46:59,327 --> 00:47:01,967
Speaker 3: It's really hard to date when you're in your fifties eight,

830
00:47:02,127 --> 00:47:05,207
Speaker 3: it's really hard to date when you're a widow. It's

831
00:47:05,247 --> 00:47:09,127
Speaker 3: really hard to date when you're a celebrity. Yeah, those

832
00:47:09,327 --> 00:47:12,247
Speaker 3: things are just not a great mix of things.

833
00:47:12,407 --> 00:47:14,567
Speaker 1: Tell me about Jeff. I was so happy when you

834
00:47:14,607 --> 00:47:17,327
Speaker 1: met Jeff. Oh yeah, how did you meet Jeff?

835
00:47:19,327 --> 00:47:22,887
Speaker 3: It was a pretty hard and long road to get

836
00:47:23,007 --> 00:47:26,087
Speaker 3: to Jeff, And there was a lot of like, you know,

837
00:47:26,167 --> 00:47:28,527
Speaker 3: I said, I took dating, you know, in the last

838
00:47:29,167 --> 00:47:31,967
Speaker 3: year before I met Jeff. I did dating as a

839
00:47:32,047 --> 00:47:35,087
Speaker 3: job because I have single girlfriends that are my age,

840
00:47:35,607 --> 00:47:37,607
Speaker 3: and they all said the same thing. Look, it's in

841
00:47:37,647 --> 00:47:40,247
Speaker 3: the numbers. You know, one of my girlfriends would do

842
00:47:40,407 --> 00:47:43,727
Speaker 3: like drive by dating. She would like she wouldn't even

843
00:47:43,767 --> 00:47:45,967
Speaker 3: waste her time with like having a coffee with them.

844
00:47:45,967 --> 00:47:48,127
Speaker 3: She would just go, why don't you drive by this

845
00:47:48,767 --> 00:47:50,967
Speaker 3: cafe as I'm sitting there, and we'll wave to each

846
00:47:50,967 --> 00:47:53,007
Speaker 3: other and see if we even want to have a coffee.

847
00:47:54,367 --> 00:47:55,767
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you've got to fuck a lot

848
00:47:55,767 --> 00:47:58,207
Speaker 1: of frogs, but sometimes you just drive by the frogs

849
00:47:58,207 --> 00:47:58,607
Speaker 1: and wave.

850
00:48:01,047 --> 00:48:02,807
Speaker 3: You're gonna drive by to see if you want if.

851
00:48:02,727 --> 00:48:04,687
Speaker 1: You want to fuck the frogs. Yeah, it's so true.

852
00:48:04,767 --> 00:48:07,087
Speaker 1: Exactly did you meet on the apps? How did you mate?

853
00:48:07,407 --> 00:48:09,887
Speaker 3: We did meet on the apps. I would have never

854
00:48:09,927 --> 00:48:11,567
Speaker 3: met him if it wasn't on an app because he

855
00:48:11,607 --> 00:48:13,767
Speaker 3: lived in la I lived in New York. We don't

856
00:48:13,767 --> 00:48:17,607
Speaker 3: really move in the same circles. And ours was in

857
00:48:17,647 --> 00:48:20,847
Speaker 3: some strange way and old fashioned romance because even though

858
00:48:20,847 --> 00:48:23,447
Speaker 3: we met on an app, which is very modern, we

859
00:48:23,607 --> 00:48:27,847
Speaker 3: then fell into this having conversations with each other for

860
00:48:27,887 --> 00:48:31,207
Speaker 3: a month, like you know, we would do zoom. We

861
00:48:31,207 --> 00:48:32,887
Speaker 3: would have a cup of tea and then we would

862
00:48:32,887 --> 00:48:35,727
Speaker 3: have a glass of wine and we would talk for

863
00:48:35,847 --> 00:48:38,807
Speaker 3: hours and hours, and we would write to each other,

864
00:48:38,847 --> 00:48:41,927
Speaker 3: and it was a month of just talking.

865
00:48:41,767 --> 00:48:42,887
Speaker 1: Like a courtship.

866
00:48:43,127 --> 00:48:45,847
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was kind of like an old fashioned portante Pauline.

867
00:48:45,847 --> 00:48:49,287
Speaker 1: You've had such issues with abandonment. You know. There was

868
00:48:49,367 --> 00:48:53,447
Speaker 1: your parents. There was even though your grandmother didn't abandon you,

869
00:48:53,447 --> 00:48:55,887
Speaker 1: you had to leave her when your parents took you

870
00:48:55,927 --> 00:48:59,327
Speaker 1: to Sweden. There was the partner that you had before

871
00:48:59,407 --> 00:49:02,967
Speaker 1: Rick died. There was Rick who had abandoned you inside

872
00:49:02,967 --> 00:49:05,247
Speaker 1: your marriage, and then of course him dying, and then

873
00:49:05,527 --> 00:49:08,487
Speaker 1: what he did to you after his death. How do

874
00:49:08,567 --> 00:49:09,207
Speaker 1: you trust?

875
00:49:10,087 --> 00:49:12,807
Speaker 3: That's such a good question. Thank you for asking that

876
00:49:12,887 --> 00:49:15,047
Speaker 3: for me and for all the other women that have

877
00:49:15,127 --> 00:49:17,807
Speaker 3: been through some shit and are having a really hard

878
00:49:17,847 --> 00:49:24,527
Speaker 3: for trusting. I don't. I can't. And Jeff, being the

879
00:49:24,847 --> 00:49:28,887
Speaker 3: wonderful human being that he is, understands that. And he

880
00:49:29,047 --> 00:49:31,567
Speaker 3: sometimes he says, you know, I have to remind myself

881
00:49:31,767 --> 00:49:36,207
Speaker 3: that you're still grieving and that all the things that

882
00:49:36,247 --> 00:49:38,967
Speaker 3: you've gone through, So I remind myself which place you're

883
00:49:39,007 --> 00:49:43,367
Speaker 3: operating from. But I understand, I get it, And he

884
00:49:43,567 --> 00:49:46,967
Speaker 3: just lets me do the things that we sometimes do

885
00:49:47,047 --> 00:49:50,807
Speaker 3: when we are having trust issues, and he just he's

886
00:49:50,807 --> 00:49:53,487
Speaker 3: there and he holds my hands and he says, I'm here,

887
00:49:53,967 --> 00:49:55,887
Speaker 3: I got you. I hear you.

888
00:49:55,927 --> 00:49:58,527
Speaker 1: What a beautiful man he really is.

889
00:49:58,407 --> 00:50:02,847
Speaker 3: And this is with his help. I think, you know,

890
00:50:03,007 --> 00:50:07,047
Speaker 3: maybe little by little I thought my trust thoughts a

891
00:50:07,087 --> 00:50:10,247
Speaker 3: little bit. I mean, at the moment that we're talking

892
00:50:10,447 --> 00:50:14,007
Speaker 3: right now, I can't conceive of the time that I

893
00:50:14,047 --> 00:50:18,287
Speaker 3: will fully be able to trust someone. But at the

894
00:50:18,327 --> 00:50:22,167
Speaker 3: same time, it doesn't start me from jumping in and trying.

895
00:50:23,167 --> 00:50:26,567
Speaker 3: I know I might get hurt again. I know how

896
00:50:26,687 --> 00:50:31,807
Speaker 3: much it hurts, but I also know I can survive anything.

897
00:50:31,807 --> 00:50:34,367
Speaker 1: That's so eloquent. You're absolutely right. We should put that

898
00:50:34,407 --> 00:50:38,047
Speaker 1: on a T shirt. Hey, you've been so generous with

899
00:50:38,087 --> 00:50:38,527
Speaker 1: your time.

900
00:50:38,647 --> 00:50:41,407
Speaker 3: Oh, it was such a pleasure talking to you, And really,

901
00:50:41,847 --> 00:50:45,807
Speaker 3: I haven't nobody's asked me these kind of sex questions

902
00:50:45,847 --> 00:50:46,727
Speaker 3: ever before.

903
00:50:47,167 --> 00:50:50,687
Speaker 1: You're hurt, no filter? Where two of a kind? You

904
00:50:50,767 --> 00:50:57,327
Speaker 1: and I. Goodness, we covered a lot of ground in

905
00:50:57,367 --> 00:51:00,887
Speaker 1: that conversation, didn't we. And we actually had to edit

906
00:51:00,927 --> 00:51:03,607
Speaker 1: it back a little bit because we talked about so

907
00:51:03,727 --> 00:51:07,527
Speaker 1: many things. I loved the part about how she's more

908
00:51:07,567 --> 00:51:12,687
Speaker 1: bendy after a two hip replace, the betrayal of Rick,

909
00:51:14,127 --> 00:51:20,887
Speaker 1: choosing bad men, the daddy issues, Oh, it's so interesting.

910
00:51:20,927 --> 00:51:23,367
Speaker 1: I once spoke to this guy and he was a

911
00:51:23,367 --> 00:51:26,367
Speaker 1: really rich guy. I was just making a comment about

912
00:51:27,647 --> 00:51:32,047
Speaker 1: how beautiful his wife was, and he said, you know,

913
00:51:32,647 --> 00:51:36,047
Speaker 1: for every beautiful woman, there's a guy who's sick of

914
00:51:36,087 --> 00:51:40,647
Speaker 1: fucking her. And I was like, Oh, my god, isn't

915
00:51:40,687 --> 00:51:45,287
Speaker 1: that just awful? And this guy was not someone that

916
00:51:45,327 --> 00:51:47,447
Speaker 1: I knew or someone that I saw again, but I

917
00:51:47,567 --> 00:51:50,607
Speaker 1: just was like, Oh, you're awful. And I think that

918
00:51:50,647 --> 00:51:53,887
Speaker 1: there's a certain type of guy. I shouldn't generalize, but

919
00:51:53,927 --> 00:51:56,407
Speaker 1: I will in my experience of interviewing a lot of

920
00:51:56,447 --> 00:52:00,167
Speaker 1: models and ex models, there's a certain type of guy

921
00:52:00,207 --> 00:52:04,647
Speaker 1: who's attracted to models because it is like the ultimate trophy,

922
00:52:04,647 --> 00:52:08,567
Speaker 1: the ultimate status symbol that the world actually pays this

923
00:52:08,647 --> 00:52:14,487
Speaker 1: woman because of how beautiful she is. She's objectively considered

924
00:52:14,527 --> 00:52:16,647
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful women in the world, and

925
00:52:16,687 --> 00:52:18,887
Speaker 1: she can even monetize it. And so what I'm going

926
00:52:18,927 --> 00:52:21,287
Speaker 1: to do is that I'm going to make her feel

927
00:52:21,327 --> 00:52:24,767
Speaker 1: really insecure so she won't leave me. And I just

928
00:52:24,967 --> 00:52:27,647
Speaker 1: I've seen it again and again and I just really

929
00:52:27,647 --> 00:52:30,607
Speaker 1: feel for these women. And what's so interesting about the

930
00:52:30,687 --> 00:52:34,127
Speaker 1: difference with Paulina and a lot of other models that

931
00:52:34,447 --> 00:52:39,647
Speaker 1: I have watched grow older is how comfortable. She's not

932
00:52:39,687 --> 00:52:42,607
Speaker 1: completely comfortable with it in that I think all of

933
00:52:42,687 --> 00:52:45,087
Speaker 1: us look in the mirror as we get older sometimes

934
00:52:45,207 --> 00:52:49,687
Speaker 1: go oh wow, goodness, that's older than I feel. But

935
00:52:49,847 --> 00:52:52,447
Speaker 1: she's not one of those women that just post throwback

936
00:52:52,487 --> 00:52:56,967
Speaker 1: photos of herself. And she's clearly very comfortable or growing

937
00:52:57,047 --> 00:52:59,727
Speaker 1: comfortable in her skin. And the times when she's not comfortable,

938
00:53:00,247 --> 00:53:03,327
Speaker 1: she's open about that, like she's honest about the fact

939
00:53:03,327 --> 00:53:07,207
Speaker 1: that she still lacks male attention and validation, particularly from

940
00:53:07,287 --> 00:53:10,887
Speaker 1: her partner. And I just you know that the word,

941
00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:14,247
Speaker 1: the term that I'd use to describe Paulina Potskova is

942
00:53:14,367 --> 00:53:17,847
Speaker 1: hot mess. And that's a real compliment from me, Like

943
00:53:17,927 --> 00:53:22,047
Speaker 1: I mean it in a really complimentary way, because the

944
00:53:22,127 --> 00:53:25,447
Speaker 1: hot is not about how she looks, it's about her

945
00:53:25,527 --> 00:53:29,647
Speaker 1: life force. And the mess is not again a negative

946
00:53:30,127 --> 00:53:32,967
Speaker 1: to me. It's a generosity of spirit in being vulnerable

947
00:53:33,887 --> 00:53:38,287
Speaker 1: and having no filter and sharing the stuff that might

948
00:53:38,367 --> 00:53:43,087
Speaker 1: not be hermetically sealed and you know, perfect and literally

949
00:53:43,127 --> 00:53:46,207
Speaker 1: filtered on the internet. And I can think of some

950
00:53:46,287 --> 00:53:49,407
Speaker 1: other models who were her age who were growing old

951
00:53:49,447 --> 00:53:53,447
Speaker 1: in very different ways, and you know, all props to them,

952
00:53:53,527 --> 00:53:55,727
Speaker 1: no shade on them, because I can't imagine how hard

953
00:53:55,767 --> 00:54:00,407
Speaker 1: it would be for a woman whose career and her

954
00:54:00,607 --> 00:54:04,367
Speaker 1: paycheck is literally indexed to the way she looks in

955
00:54:04,687 --> 00:54:07,327
Speaker 1: a world that wants women to always look young and

956
00:54:07,327 --> 00:54:12,287
Speaker 1: perfect and frozen into And Paulina's just said, screw that.

957
00:54:12,367 --> 00:54:15,927
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it, and I'm loving watching it and

958
00:54:16,127 --> 00:54:18,007
Speaker 1: loving watching it. They say, you can't be what you

959
00:54:18,047 --> 00:54:22,167
Speaker 1: can't see, and I love looking at her as a woman.

960
00:54:22,487 --> 00:54:25,727
Speaker 1: You know who's around her age too. Anyway, if you've

961
00:54:25,767 --> 00:54:28,047
Speaker 1: never watched the music video for Drive where Paulina and

962
00:54:28,127 --> 00:54:30,487
Speaker 1: Rick Mett, go watch it on YouTube. It's a hoot.

963
00:54:30,687 --> 00:54:33,287
Speaker 1: It's like a time machine back to the eighties. But

964
00:54:33,487 --> 00:54:36,567
Speaker 1: she's more beautiful now than ever before, I honestly think,

965
00:54:36,887 --> 00:54:40,287
Speaker 1: and yeah, love her work. Follow her on Instagram. She

966
00:54:40,287 --> 00:54:43,367
Speaker 1: doesn't cry that much anymore. She's happy now. The executive

967
00:54:43,407 --> 00:54:46,367
Speaker 1: producer of No Filter is Niama Brown, a child of

968
00:54:46,407 --> 00:54:49,167
Speaker 1: the eighties who did not have a Paulina poster, but

969
00:54:49,247 --> 00:54:51,607
Speaker 1: did have a Rob Low one. Like me, I had

970
00:54:51,647 --> 00:54:54,647
Speaker 1: a Rob Low one. He had a piercedar. I think

971
00:54:54,687 --> 00:54:56,687
Speaker 1: he was the only straight guy I had on my wall.

972
00:54:57,087 --> 00:55:01,327
Speaker 1: My other posters were like of adam Ant and Culture Club.

973
00:55:01,647 --> 00:55:04,607
Speaker 1: I had big crushes on them, very bad Gator when I.

974
00:55:04,567 --> 00:55:04,967
Speaker 3: Was a kid.

975
00:55:05,407 --> 00:55:08,287
Speaker 1: Audio production on this podcast is by Tom Lyon. I

976
00:55:08,327 --> 00:55:10,767
Speaker 1: don't think he was born in the eighties, so he's

977
00:55:10,767 --> 00:55:13,567
Speaker 1: got nothing to add to this conversation really, except I

978
00:55:13,647 --> 00:55:16,687
Speaker 1: do know that he appreciates women of all ages, whether

979
00:55:16,687 --> 00:55:19,247
Speaker 1: they're crying or not. I'm Meya Friedman And have I

980
00:55:19,287 --> 00:55:29,327
Speaker 1: ever cried on Instagram? Well? Yes I have. How good

981
00:55:29,447 --> 00:55:32,047
Speaker 1: was that? She was very interesting? I loved the part

982
00:55:32,087 --> 00:55:34,167
Speaker 1: where we talked about that she's more bendy after a

983
00:55:34,247 --> 00:55:37,927
Speaker 1: hip replacements. That's the kind of conversations we have over

984
00:55:37,967 --> 00:55:39,927
Speaker 1: at No Filter. And you know what, Usually people when

985
00:55:39,967 --> 00:55:42,367
Speaker 1: I ask those kinds of questions, they're like, oh, but

986
00:55:42,447 --> 00:55:44,607
Speaker 1: she was like, thank you for asking me about sex.

987
00:55:44,647 --> 00:55:47,127
Speaker 1: I wish more people ask me about sex, and I'm like,

988
00:55:47,167 --> 00:55:51,167
Speaker 1: you are my dream No Filter guest. Anyway, before I go,

989
00:55:51,447 --> 00:55:53,887
Speaker 1: I have some exciting news. Out louders Mom and Mia

990
00:55:54,007 --> 00:55:56,407
Speaker 1: out loud is back in your ears tomorrow, where I

991
00:55:56,447 --> 00:56:00,127
Speaker 1: will be telling you what my hyperfixation of summer ended

992
00:56:00,207 --> 00:56:03,007
Speaker 1: up being. We have missed you. Thank you for hanging

993
00:56:03,007 --> 00:56:05,767
Speaker 1: in with us. Hope you've enjoyed all this special content

994
00:56:05,847 --> 00:56:08,527
Speaker 1: over the Hot Pod summer, and we cannot wait to

995
00:56:08,567 --> 00:56:09,967
Speaker 1: be back in your eye. Yes,