1 00:00:06,415 --> 00:00:16,055 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mumma mea podcast. Hey, I'm Taylor Strano. 2 00:00:16,175 --> 00:00:20,295 Speaker 1: This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, The Quickie. 3 00:00:20,335 --> 00:00:23,655 Speaker 1: Four hundred and thirty one. That's the number of women 4 00:00:23,735 --> 00:00:27,895 Speaker 1: who've died since Hannah Clark and her children were killed now. 5 00:00:28,055 --> 00:00:30,975 Speaker 1: That number comes via Scherrell Moody, founder of the Red 6 00:00:31,015 --> 00:00:35,015 Speaker 1: Heart Campaign and the Australian Femicide Watch, tracking the number 7 00:00:35,015 --> 00:00:39,534 Speaker 1: of women and children lost to violence. In cases of DV, 8 00:00:39,934 --> 00:00:43,934 Speaker 1: blame often lies with the victim, or solely on the perpetrator, 9 00:00:44,375 --> 00:00:48,055 Speaker 1: their poor mental health or troubled upbringing. But what about 10 00:00:48,055 --> 00:00:51,375 Speaker 1: a larger conversation about how these four hundred and thirty 11 00:00:51,415 --> 00:00:54,895 Speaker 1: one deaths and so many others could have been prevented? 12 00:00:55,455 --> 00:00:59,135 Speaker 1: This week, a new investigation, years in the making, starts 13 00:00:59,175 --> 00:01:01,535 Speaker 1: to pull at a thread of how he perceived it 14 00:01:01,695 --> 00:01:05,695 Speaker 1: V and who's supposed to keep us safe during those times? 15 00:01:05,975 --> 00:01:08,815 Speaker 1: Before we get there, He's Charlie Blackman with the latest 16 00:01:08,855 --> 00:01:12,095 Speaker 1: from the QUICKI newsroom for Friday, November twenty one. 17 00:01:12,335 --> 00:01:16,175 Speaker 2: Thanks Taylor, Ukraine and Russia have carried out another exchange 18 00:01:16,215 --> 00:01:20,375 Speaker 2: of soldiers' bodies. Ukraine says it has received one thousand bodies, 19 00:01:20,455 --> 00:01:23,815 Speaker 2: while Russia state media reports said that thirty were returned 20 00:01:23,815 --> 00:01:28,415 Speaker 2: to Russia. Ukraine's Prisoner of War Coordination Center says investigators 21 00:01:28,455 --> 00:01:31,295 Speaker 2: will now work to identify the remains and thanks to 22 00:01:31,295 --> 00:01:34,975 Speaker 2: the Red Cross for mediating. This is the fifteenth exchange 23 00:01:35,015 --> 00:01:37,815 Speaker 2: this year, and Ukraine says it has recovered more than 24 00:01:37,855 --> 00:01:41,775 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand bodies since the war began. Ukraine has long 25 00:01:41,815 --> 00:01:45,295 Speaker 2: accused Russia of returning bodies in poor condition or even 26 00:01:45,375 --> 00:01:49,135 Speaker 2: sending back Russian soldiers by mistake, which must go denies. 27 00:01:49,855 --> 00:01:52,975 Speaker 2: This exchange comes as fighting continues while more than four 28 00:01:53,055 --> 00:01:57,335 Speaker 2: hundred thousand Ukrainians remain without power after recent Russian attacks 29 00:01:57,375 --> 00:02:01,535 Speaker 2: damage key energy infrastructure. Nuclear plans have been forced to 30 00:02:01,575 --> 00:02:06,615 Speaker 2: cut output because of transmission line damage. Kelley Sloane is 31 00:02:06,655 --> 00:02:09,335 Speaker 2: set to become the new new South Wales Liberal leader 32 00:02:09,454 --> 00:02:13,215 Speaker 2: after Mark Speakman resigned under pressure, leaving the first term 33 00:02:13,335 --> 00:02:16,895 Speaker 2: MP as the only confirmed candidate. Ahead of Friday's party 34 00:02:16,975 --> 00:02:21,775 Speaker 2: room vote. Speakman acknowledged the statistical unlikelihood of his first 35 00:02:21,895 --> 00:02:25,495 Speaker 2: term opposition winning the twenty twenty seven state election, with 36 00:02:25,655 --> 00:02:28,895 Speaker 2: recent polls putting Labour ahead fifty nine to forty one 37 00:02:29,095 --> 00:02:33,695 Speaker 2: on a two party preferred basis. Election analysist Ben Rowe 38 00:02:33,815 --> 00:02:36,735 Speaker 2: says a new leader is unlikely to shift the numbers, 39 00:02:36,935 --> 00:02:40,895 Speaker 2: arguing the party's problems run deeper than Speakman's personal standing. 40 00:02:41,415 --> 00:02:44,815 Speaker 2: He says voters may be responding to broader issues, internal 41 00:02:44,815 --> 00:02:48,375 Speaker 2: divisions or the wider Liberal brand. The New South Wales 42 00:02:48,455 --> 00:02:52,015 Speaker 2: Liberals remain committed to net zero emissions by twenty fifty 43 00:02:52,135 --> 00:02:56,015 Speaker 2: in contrast to the federal coalition. Sloane, a former TV 44 00:02:56,135 --> 00:02:59,495 Speaker 2: news presenter elected in twenty twenty three, has been widely 45 00:02:59,615 --> 00:03:02,615 Speaker 2: viewed as the party's strongest option to take on Labour. 46 00:03:03,535 --> 00:03:07,055 Speaker 2: A public inquiry has delivered a damning assessment of the 47 00:03:07,135 --> 00:03:11,255 Speaker 2: UK's response to COVID nineteen, finding former Prime Minister Boris 48 00:03:11,295 --> 00:03:15,775 Speaker 2: Johnson oversaw a toxic, chaotic and slow system that contributed 49 00:03:15,815 --> 00:03:19,775 Speaker 2: to thousands of avoidable deaths. Inquiry chair had The Hallett 50 00:03:19,855 --> 00:03:22,935 Speaker 2: said the government failed to grasp the seriousness of the 51 00:03:23,015 --> 00:03:26,615 Speaker 2: virus early in twenty twenty, relying on false assurances that 52 00:03:26,655 --> 00:03:30,335 Speaker 2: the UK was prepared. She said Johnson was distracted by 53 00:03:30,415 --> 00:03:33,855 Speaker 2: other political priorities and did not provide the leadership needed 54 00:03:33,895 --> 00:03:37,615 Speaker 2: to inject urgency into the response. The report found that 55 00:03:37,655 --> 00:03:40,895 Speaker 2: the late lockdown on March twenty three resulted in about 56 00:03:40,895 --> 00:03:44,375 Speaker 2: twenty three thousand additional deaths during the first wave, and 57 00:03:44,455 --> 00:03:49,335 Speaker 2: delays later in the year triggered further restrictions. Colleen Hoover 58 00:03:49,455 --> 00:03:52,255 Speaker 2: says she is now embarrassed to be associated with her 59 00:03:52,255 --> 00:03:55,135 Speaker 2: best selling novel It Ends with Us, following the legal 60 00:03:55,215 --> 00:03:59,095 Speaker 2: drama between the film stars Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. 61 00:03:59,655 --> 00:04:02,935 Speaker 2: The book, published in twenty sixteen and adapted into a 62 00:04:02,975 --> 00:04:06,015 Speaker 2: movie in twenty twenty four, became a hit on TikTok 63 00:04:06,135 --> 00:04:10,695 Speaker 2: and inspired a sequel. Lively sued Baldoni for sexual harassment 64 00:04:10,735 --> 00:04:14,295 Speaker 2: and retaliation in December twenty twenty four, a case set 65 00:04:14,295 --> 00:04:17,294 Speaker 2: for trial in March twenty twenty six, which Hoover says 66 00:04:17,335 --> 00:04:21,415 Speaker 2: has overshadowed her work. I can't even recommend it anymore, 67 00:04:21,495 --> 00:04:24,695 Speaker 2: she said, also saying the controversy has affected her mother, 68 00:04:24,775 --> 00:04:29,335 Speaker 2: whose experiences inspired the story. Despite the setback, she says 69 00:04:29,375 --> 00:04:32,295 Speaker 2: she remains proud of the book, though less publicly, and 70 00:04:32,455 --> 00:04:35,255 Speaker 2: joked she might need therapy to cope with the fallout. 71 00:04:36,015 --> 00:04:40,495 Speaker 1: Thanks Charlie Next, Remembering Hannah Clark and the larger conversation 72 00:04:40,775 --> 00:04:47,935 Speaker 1: about domestic violence. A quick heads up, This episode deals 73 00:04:47,975 --> 00:04:53,735 Speaker 1: with accounts of domestic violence. Take care while listening. It 74 00:04:53,775 --> 00:04:58,135 Speaker 1: was February nineteen, twenty twenty, quiet Wednesday morning, when Hannah 75 00:04:58,175 --> 00:05:01,895 Speaker 1: Clark packed her three children, six year old Leah, four 76 00:05:01,935 --> 00:05:05,055 Speaker 1: year old Leana and three year old Trey into the 77 00:05:05,095 --> 00:05:08,855 Speaker 1: car at the school run in Brisbane's Camp Hill. As 78 00:05:08,895 --> 00:05:12,655 Speaker 1: she started the drive, her estrange husband, Rowan Baxter, ambushed them, 79 00:05:13,055 --> 00:05:16,655 Speaker 1: forced himself into the car carrying a petrol container, and 80 00:05:16,695 --> 00:05:22,854 Speaker 1: within minutes a horrifying scene unfolded. Baxter set the car alight. Hannah, 81 00:05:22,935 --> 00:05:26,815 Speaker 1: engulfed in flames, managed to escape the vehicle crying for help, 82 00:05:27,255 --> 00:05:31,695 Speaker 1: but her children could not be saved. Hannah later died 83 00:05:31,735 --> 00:05:35,054 Speaker 1: from her injuries in hospital that same day, her last 84 00:05:35,055 --> 00:05:38,575 Speaker 1: moments testifying to the violence. She had fought so hard 85 00:05:38,655 --> 00:05:44,055 Speaker 1: to escape. But this was not a tragedy that appeared 86 00:05:44,055 --> 00:05:47,575 Speaker 1: from nowhere. For months before that February morning, Hannah had 87 00:05:47,615 --> 00:05:50,895 Speaker 1: lived in fear after and during years of what friends 88 00:05:51,015 --> 00:05:55,135 Speaker 1: later described as suffocating control, Hannah made the brave decision 89 00:05:55,255 --> 00:05:58,975 Speaker 1: to leave Rowan in twenty nineteen, moving with her kids 90 00:05:59,135 --> 00:06:02,455 Speaker 1: back to her parents' home. She did everything she was 91 00:06:02,455 --> 00:06:06,935 Speaker 1: supposed to sought legal protection secure a domestic violence order, 92 00:06:07,335 --> 00:06:10,335 Speaker 1: although even with the order, Rowan found ways to breach 93 00:06:10,375 --> 00:06:13,975 Speaker 1: its terms. He kidnapped their daughter Leana on Boxing Date 94 00:06:14,055 --> 00:06:20,535 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. The police were involved, but the stalking, threats 95 00:06:20,535 --> 00:06:24,895 Speaker 1: and breaches didn't stop. Go back even further to before 96 00:06:24,895 --> 00:06:30,175 Speaker 1: the separation, and the signs were already there. He surveiled her. 97 00:06:30,415 --> 00:06:34,935 Speaker 1: A coronial inquest concluded it's likely Rowan planted tracking devices 98 00:06:34,975 --> 00:06:40,855 Speaker 1: and recorded her movements. Once Hannah a national trampoline champion, 99 00:06:41,135 --> 00:06:45,175 Speaker 1: a warm mother, and a hopeful young woman building a family, 100 00:06:45,975 --> 00:06:48,815 Speaker 1: the years that followed saw her joy and agency chipped 101 00:06:48,855 --> 00:06:52,895 Speaker 1: away by coercive control, a form of domestic violence so 102 00:06:53,055 --> 00:06:57,695 Speaker 1: invisible to many but deeply destructive. Her final act was 103 00:06:57,815 --> 00:07:01,175 Speaker 1: not only one of survival, but of desperate love for 104 00:07:01,215 --> 00:07:04,815 Speaker 1: her children. Hannah Clark's story did not end on that 105 00:07:04,895 --> 00:07:09,215 Speaker 1: morning on Brisbane Street. It began years before in warning 106 00:07:09,295 --> 00:07:13,455 Speaker 1: signs that went unheeded, and continues today in the movement 107 00:07:13,535 --> 00:07:18,375 Speaker 1: for stronger action against domestic violence and coercive control in Australia. 108 00:07:19,495 --> 00:07:22,295 Speaker 1: And look, her story is not one told in isolation. 109 00:07:22,735 --> 00:07:26,655 Speaker 1: You've read the headlines, engaged with social media posts, maybe 110 00:07:26,695 --> 00:07:29,855 Speaker 1: even attended a march or a rally to end Australia's 111 00:07:29,855 --> 00:07:34,335 Speaker 1: domestic and family violence crisis, and yet the statistics show, 112 00:07:34,415 --> 00:07:37,415 Speaker 1: on average, one woman is killed every eight days by 113 00:07:37,415 --> 00:07:41,375 Speaker 1: an intimate partner. A coroner found there was nothing more 114 00:07:41,415 --> 00:07:43,535 Speaker 1: that could be done to prevent the murder of Hannah 115 00:07:43,575 --> 00:07:47,935 Speaker 1: and her children, But now, thanks to whistleblowers, family members, 116 00:07:48,015 --> 00:07:51,975 Speaker 1: advocates and journalism, we know that statement might not actually 117 00:07:52,015 --> 00:07:55,415 Speaker 1: be true. All this week The Guardian has been releasing 118 00:07:55,455 --> 00:07:59,175 Speaker 1: pieces of its Broken Trust series, a two years investigation 119 00:07:59,375 --> 00:08:02,415 Speaker 1: into alleged failures by the police and coroner's court in 120 00:08:02,495 --> 00:08:06,575 Speaker 1: domestic violence deaths in Queensland. Today we're joined by The 121 00:08:06,575 --> 00:08:10,655 Speaker 1: Guardians Queensland correspondent Ben Smeath, who has spent countless hours 122 00:08:10,655 --> 00:08:13,455 Speaker 1: with his team pouring over the final details of Hannah's 123 00:08:13,455 --> 00:08:17,495 Speaker 1: case and so many others like it. Ben, thanks for 124 00:08:17,615 --> 00:08:22,455 Speaker 1: joining us. A two year investigation has led to this week. 125 00:08:22,575 --> 00:08:24,335 Speaker 1: Do you want to tell us a bit about what 126 00:08:24,535 --> 00:08:26,735 Speaker 1: sparked this investigation for you and The Guardian? 127 00:08:27,215 --> 00:08:29,335 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean these were issues that I've been writing 128 00:08:29,375 --> 00:08:33,415 Speaker 3: about for a pretty significant amount of time, probably even 129 00:08:33,735 --> 00:08:36,934 Speaker 3: prior to the killings of Hannah Clarke. And her children. 130 00:08:37,054 --> 00:08:40,175 Speaker 3: I had been writing about issues with policing responses to 131 00:08:40,215 --> 00:08:43,015 Speaker 3: domestic and family violence, but it was two years ago 132 00:08:43,135 --> 00:08:47,015 Speaker 3: that this particular project kicked off, and the impetus for 133 00:08:47,175 --> 00:08:50,135 Speaker 3: it was the involvement of a couple of whistleblowers who 134 00:08:50,295 --> 00:08:53,295 Speaker 3: one who I had been speaking to for sometime prior, 135 00:08:53,935 --> 00:08:59,135 Speaker 3: but who had information about the way that Queensland investigated 136 00:08:59,255 --> 00:09:02,535 Speaker 3: domestic and family violence homicides or in some cases didn't 137 00:09:02,695 --> 00:09:04,975 Speaker 3: properly investigate those homicides. 138 00:09:05,015 --> 00:09:08,055 Speaker 1: Tell me abit about these whistleblowers, because obviously they are 139 00:09:08,135 --> 00:09:11,455 Speaker 1: integral to the stories you've been publishing, the work you've 140 00:09:11,495 --> 00:09:14,095 Speaker 1: been doing. Who are they and what is it they 141 00:09:14,495 --> 00:09:15,615 Speaker 1: actually contributed. 142 00:09:16,135 --> 00:09:19,815 Speaker 3: Kate Pasino, who's a former Queensland Police officer of twenty 143 00:09:19,895 --> 00:09:23,814 Speaker 3: years and well respected investigator during her time in police, 144 00:09:23,815 --> 00:09:26,855 Speaker 3: and one of the roles that she performed during her 145 00:09:26,895 --> 00:09:29,495 Speaker 3: time at police was within what's called the Domestic and 146 00:09:29,495 --> 00:09:32,454 Speaker 3: Family Violence Death Review Unit, and essentially it was her 147 00:09:32,575 --> 00:09:37,015 Speaker 3: job to go through reportable deaths that came into the 148 00:09:37,054 --> 00:09:41,375 Speaker 3: coroner's office investigate them for domestic and family violence links. 149 00:09:41,735 --> 00:09:44,615 Speaker 3: Sometimes these were deaths that were reported as suicides or 150 00:09:44,695 --> 00:09:47,735 Speaker 3: drug overdoses, but to kind of go through the background, 151 00:09:47,735 --> 00:09:49,815 Speaker 3: work out whether there was anything that should be looked 152 00:09:49,855 --> 00:09:52,175 Speaker 3: at in relation to domestic and family violence, and then 153 00:09:52,215 --> 00:09:56,615 Speaker 3: start requesting information in relation to those Her experience in 154 00:09:56,655 --> 00:10:01,055 Speaker 3: that role was really significant and had contact with a 155 00:10:01,054 --> 00:10:04,175 Speaker 3: lot of different cases that came across her desk. Our 156 00:10:04,215 --> 00:10:07,655 Speaker 3: other whistleblower is some one whose identity we're protecting. We're 157 00:10:07,695 --> 00:10:10,095 Speaker 3: referring to her as Elsie, and she worked within the 158 00:10:10,175 --> 00:10:14,455 Speaker 3: coronial system and had experience within the colonial system that 159 00:10:14,495 --> 00:10:18,015 Speaker 3: obviously was relevant to helping our reporting. And she made 160 00:10:18,015 --> 00:10:21,855 Speaker 3: some disclosures to the Crime and Corruption Commission about multiple 161 00:10:21,895 --> 00:10:24,855 Speaker 3: cases that she had some knowledge of or involvement with. 162 00:10:25,175 --> 00:10:27,694 Speaker 1: Why do you think Kate and Nelsie came forward and 163 00:10:27,895 --> 00:10:29,615 Speaker 1: really wanted to work with you? 164 00:10:30,215 --> 00:10:36,934 Speaker 3: Whistleblowing is the opposite of glamorous. There's certainly only risk 165 00:10:37,495 --> 00:10:41,615 Speaker 3: and pain for people who go through a whistleblowing process. 166 00:10:41,735 --> 00:10:45,334 Speaker 3: There's certainly nothing for them personally to gain from going 167 00:10:45,375 --> 00:10:49,615 Speaker 3: through it. In fact, they put careers and reputations at 168 00:10:49,695 --> 00:10:54,535 Speaker 3: risk by doing that. Fundamentally, both of those women saw 169 00:10:54,575 --> 00:10:57,975 Speaker 3: something and saw the way the system was working or 170 00:10:58,015 --> 00:11:02,655 Speaker 3: in fact was not working. They saw women's deaths that 171 00:11:02,695 --> 00:11:08,575 Speaker 3: were not being properly investigated, and they believed that people 172 00:11:09,015 --> 00:11:11,935 Speaker 3: needed to know what had really happened in these cases. 173 00:11:11,975 --> 00:11:13,895 Speaker 3: And I think one of the real drivers for them 174 00:11:14,054 --> 00:11:16,655 Speaker 3: was the fact that in many of these cases, the 175 00:11:16,775 --> 00:11:22,095 Speaker 3: family members of victims themselves did not know many pieces 176 00:11:22,095 --> 00:11:25,814 Speaker 3: of information about their loved ones and what had happened 177 00:11:25,855 --> 00:11:30,535 Speaker 3: to them. The cronial system really relies very heavily that 178 00:11:30,615 --> 00:11:33,215 Speaker 3: anyone who's sort of worked within it or has understanding 179 00:11:33,255 --> 00:11:36,815 Speaker 3: of the way it works is it relies upon families 180 00:11:37,175 --> 00:11:41,055 Speaker 3: pushing for more information, pushing for more investigations, and when 181 00:11:41,175 --> 00:11:44,615 Speaker 3: families people don't know what they don't know. And in 182 00:11:44,655 --> 00:11:47,335 Speaker 3: some of these cases, we've talked to families who weren't 183 00:11:47,375 --> 00:11:50,975 Speaker 3: even aware that there were problematic circumstances in the lead 184 00:11:51,015 --> 00:11:52,175 Speaker 3: up to their loved one's debts. 185 00:11:52,535 --> 00:11:55,415 Speaker 1: Why do you think that families of victims are sometimes 186 00:11:55,615 --> 00:11:57,695 Speaker 1: kept in the dark of all these details, Whether it 187 00:11:57,695 --> 00:12:00,215 Speaker 1: be intentionally or not, it is a good question. 188 00:12:00,535 --> 00:12:03,295 Speaker 3: I think we need to take a step back, and 189 00:12:03,615 --> 00:12:06,975 Speaker 3: I guess reflect on the fact that in more thanty 190 00:12:07,095 --> 00:12:11,855 Speaker 3: percent of Domesican family violence cases there is prior contact 191 00:12:11,975 --> 00:12:17,375 Speaker 3: with services and the police. These are effectively deaths in 192 00:12:17,455 --> 00:12:21,255 Speaker 3: police operation. Because you have situations where women have reached 193 00:12:21,255 --> 00:12:25,095 Speaker 3: out to police asking for help and then there has 194 00:12:25,175 --> 00:12:29,135 Speaker 3: been subsequently been a homicide. You have situations where there's 195 00:12:29,175 --> 00:12:33,415 Speaker 3: been significant service system contact, and in at least some 196 00:12:33,495 --> 00:12:37,935 Speaker 3: of these cases, we've this week published allegations, particularly from Kate, 197 00:12:38,015 --> 00:12:41,454 Speaker 3: who says that she was asked to withhold evidence from 198 00:12:41,455 --> 00:12:45,615 Speaker 3: the coroner that would have reflected poorly upon the Queensland 199 00:12:45,655 --> 00:12:49,975 Speaker 3: Police Service by more senior officers within the QPS, and 200 00:12:50,015 --> 00:12:52,375 Speaker 3: so obviously a very serious elyation. It's one that the 201 00:12:52,415 --> 00:12:55,775 Speaker 3: police have told us that they take very seriously. But 202 00:12:56,455 --> 00:12:59,455 Speaker 3: more broadly, when we talk about domestic and family violence 203 00:12:59,575 --> 00:13:04,255 Speaker 3: and in particularly homicides, we've kind of played around the 204 00:13:04,335 --> 00:13:07,214 Speaker 3: edges of the issues with it for some time. We've 205 00:13:07,215 --> 00:13:11,175 Speaker 3: had inquiries and task forces and inquests and everything else, 206 00:13:11,335 --> 00:13:15,615 Speaker 3: and for whatever reason, none of those processes have really 207 00:13:15,735 --> 00:13:18,814 Speaker 3: gotten to the heart of the failings that come before 208 00:13:18,895 --> 00:13:20,815 Speaker 3: these sorts of processes, and I think that was one 209 00:13:20,815 --> 00:13:23,015 Speaker 3: of the real drivers of our reporting was to say, well, 210 00:13:23,495 --> 00:13:25,775 Speaker 3: we have had all of these processes that are supposed 211 00:13:25,775 --> 00:13:28,735 Speaker 3: to make things better, they haven't made things better, So 212 00:13:28,895 --> 00:13:31,415 Speaker 3: what are we missing? This to me is something that 213 00:13:31,535 --> 00:13:34,215 Speaker 3: is missing. I'm not necessarily saying that what we've uncovered 214 00:13:34,295 --> 00:13:38,215 Speaker 3: is kind of a key to unlocking the breadth scope 215 00:13:38,255 --> 00:13:41,574 Speaker 3: of the domestic and family violence crisis, but absolutely there 216 00:13:41,655 --> 00:13:43,055 Speaker 3: is so much that we're missing. 217 00:13:43,575 --> 00:13:45,535 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. When we talk about domestic 218 00:13:45,615 --> 00:13:48,695 Speaker 1: and family violence, and especially domestic and family violence that 219 00:13:48,775 --> 00:13:53,375 Speaker 1: results in a loss of life, we look and criticize 220 00:13:53,415 --> 00:13:56,895 Speaker 1: the perpetrators, which rightfully so. But then when we turn 221 00:13:57,015 --> 00:13:59,815 Speaker 1: to say, the processes that are designed to keep us safe, 222 00:13:59,895 --> 00:14:04,055 Speaker 1: there's maybe now more criticism or critical thinking around them. 223 00:14:04,415 --> 00:14:08,054 Speaker 1: You've obviously gone quite deep. And in the same instance, 224 00:14:08,095 --> 00:14:10,695 Speaker 1: you've spoken to a lot of those sort of institutions 225 00:14:10,735 --> 00:14:13,775 Speaker 1: like the police, for instance, what's their response been to 226 00:14:13,975 --> 00:14:14,655 Speaker 1: this reporting. 227 00:14:15,054 --> 00:14:18,454 Speaker 3: The view of the police that was expressed by a 228 00:14:18,535 --> 00:14:21,295 Speaker 3: deputy commissioner we spoke to, we did a record an 229 00:14:21,295 --> 00:14:24,935 Speaker 3: interview with was essentially that even if you have a 230 00:14:24,935 --> 00:14:28,455 Speaker 3: perfect police response, sometimes you're not going to stop domestic 231 00:14:28,655 --> 00:14:32,175 Speaker 3: and family violent homicides. That's kind of contrary to the 232 00:14:32,255 --> 00:14:36,815 Speaker 3: view of experts on this. Experts say that domestic and 233 00:14:36,855 --> 00:14:42,215 Speaker 3: family violentce homicides are both predictable and preventable, particularly in 234 00:14:42,295 --> 00:14:46,375 Speaker 3: cases where there is prior system contact. We know, we 235 00:14:46,455 --> 00:14:50,815 Speaker 3: have checklists, we know how to recognize risk factors, we 236 00:14:50,935 --> 00:14:54,735 Speaker 3: know how to take protective action in different sorts of 237 00:14:54,855 --> 00:14:59,095 Speaker 3: circumstances that is designed to protect women. And what our reporting, 238 00:14:59,335 --> 00:15:02,775 Speaker 3: to my mind, has shown is not this happened, and 239 00:15:02,815 --> 00:15:05,735 Speaker 3: maybe we could have done something else, But absolutely what 240 00:15:05,775 --> 00:15:09,095 Speaker 3: we've focused on is saying, well, these were the risk factors. 241 00:15:09,175 --> 00:15:11,535 Speaker 3: These were the risk factors that, had there been a 242 00:15:11,575 --> 00:15:14,295 Speaker 3: proper response, would have been recognized in this case or 243 00:15:14,335 --> 00:15:17,415 Speaker 3: at this time, and that weren't. These are the processes 244 00:15:17,455 --> 00:15:20,935 Speaker 3: that may have put women at risk in certain circumstances. 245 00:15:20,975 --> 00:15:24,655 Speaker 3: This idea that continually comes back in coronial findings with 246 00:15:24,735 --> 00:15:27,375 Speaker 3: regard to domestic and family violence that nothing could have 247 00:15:27,455 --> 00:15:30,375 Speaker 3: been done. You know, maybe there were some processes that 248 00:15:30,415 --> 00:15:33,135 Speaker 3: went wrong or some missed opportunities to intervene, but that 249 00:15:33,215 --> 00:15:35,575 Speaker 3: nothing could have been done. This is something that we 250 00:15:35,615 --> 00:15:40,815 Speaker 3: see repeatedly in coronial findings and it is such a 251 00:15:40,975 --> 00:15:44,735 Speaker 3: concession of defeat when we have this crisis. We have 252 00:15:45,695 --> 00:15:50,615 Speaker 3: escalating numbers of domestic and family violence homicides, We have 253 00:15:50,815 --> 00:15:54,975 Speaker 3: any number of hidden homicides, the cases that are maybe 254 00:15:55,135 --> 00:15:58,135 Speaker 3: listed as suicides or drug overdoses, but where there's a 255 00:15:58,135 --> 00:16:01,735 Speaker 3: domestic and family violence context that hasn't properly been investigated. 256 00:16:02,335 --> 00:16:05,655 Speaker 3: I don't think that we as a community should we'd 257 00:16:05,735 --> 00:16:08,175 Speaker 3: be making that concession to simply say, well, we couldn't 258 00:16:08,215 --> 00:16:12,295 Speaker 3: have done anything more in any case, let alone ones 259 00:16:12,335 --> 00:16:15,175 Speaker 3: where we have very very clear evidence of policing and 260 00:16:15,215 --> 00:16:16,375 Speaker 3: system failure in the leader. 261 00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:20,415 Speaker 1: Well, Hannah Clark is, for lack of a better phrase, 262 00:16:20,455 --> 00:16:24,055 Speaker 1: one of the most high profile incidents of domestic violence 263 00:16:24,095 --> 00:16:27,015 Speaker 1: murder in recent years. And what you say there about 264 00:16:27,375 --> 00:16:29,815 Speaker 1: the line of well, there's nothing else that could have 265 00:16:29,815 --> 00:16:32,335 Speaker 1: been done to prevent this is something that does underscore 266 00:16:32,335 --> 00:16:35,135 Speaker 1: her case, as you've found out. Tell us a little 267 00:16:35,135 --> 00:16:37,975 Speaker 1: bit more about this particular case of Hannah Clark. 268 00:16:38,535 --> 00:16:40,575 Speaker 3: It's a case that a lot of people will remember 269 00:16:40,615 --> 00:16:44,415 Speaker 3: Hannah Clark and her three children. Hannah had had sixteen 270 00:16:44,455 --> 00:16:47,815 Speaker 3: points of contact, not including ongoing text messaging with a 271 00:16:47,815 --> 00:16:50,935 Speaker 3: police officer in the lead up to her death. It 272 00:16:51,055 --> 00:16:55,495 Speaker 3: is a case that has led to legislative reforms in Queensland, 273 00:16:55,495 --> 00:17:00,295 Speaker 3: like we've criminalized coercive control in Queensland, largely inspired by 274 00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:04,815 Speaker 3: this case and the understanding of coercive control. That's come 275 00:17:04,815 --> 00:17:08,175 Speaker 3: out of this case and the campaigning around coercive control 276 00:17:08,215 --> 00:17:11,734 Speaker 3: that's been done by Hannah's parents, Sue and Lloyd in Queensland. 277 00:17:12,294 --> 00:17:16,414 Speaker 3: That understanding. It's changed the conversation. It's helped us to 278 00:17:16,534 --> 00:17:22,215 Speaker 3: identify coercive, controlling behaviors. But at the same time there 279 00:17:22,254 --> 00:17:24,574 Speaker 3: has perhaps been an impression about this case that that's 280 00:17:24,695 --> 00:17:28,774 Speaker 3: all that it involved was coercive and controlling behaviors and 281 00:17:28,854 --> 00:17:34,174 Speaker 3: not actual violence, actual things that would and should have 282 00:17:34,254 --> 00:17:37,734 Speaker 3: been recognized by police as having placed Hannah at a 283 00:17:37,814 --> 00:17:42,375 Speaker 3: very high risk, and actual policing failures in the lead 284 00:17:42,455 --> 00:17:47,095 Speaker 3: up to those deaths that should have been more thoroughly 285 00:17:47,175 --> 00:17:52,134 Speaker 3: dealt with, and that really I think set aside this 286 00:17:52,215 --> 00:17:54,734 Speaker 3: notion that in this case nothing more could have been done. 287 00:17:54,774 --> 00:17:57,935 Speaker 3: And what we know about what happened after Hannah died 288 00:17:58,135 --> 00:18:02,094 Speaker 3: was that there was a police investigation that commenced. The 289 00:18:02,135 --> 00:18:04,654 Speaker 3: purpose of that police investigation wasn't a who done it, 290 00:18:04,695 --> 00:18:07,734 Speaker 3: like we knew Rowan Baxter had killed Hannah and the children. 291 00:18:07,935 --> 00:18:11,174 Speaker 3: The purpose of that was to understand why, was to 292 00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,975 Speaker 3: go into some of the background, some of the drivers, 293 00:18:14,375 --> 00:18:16,334 Speaker 3: some of the things that had gone wrong in the 294 00:18:16,415 --> 00:18:19,014 Speaker 3: lead up and what we know that investigation did not 295 00:18:19,094 --> 00:18:22,135 Speaker 3: do in any way, shape or form, was to look 296 00:18:22,175 --> 00:18:25,575 Speaker 3: at the interactions with police. It's never been an internal 297 00:18:25,574 --> 00:18:28,454 Speaker 3: review done by police into their own actions prior to 298 00:18:28,494 --> 00:18:32,214 Speaker 3: that case. And that's significant because police are kind of, 299 00:18:32,375 --> 00:18:35,095 Speaker 3: in many ways the gatekeepers of information within their own 300 00:18:35,135 --> 00:18:38,014 Speaker 3: systems about their own contact with people. But what did 301 00:18:38,054 --> 00:18:41,054 Speaker 3: happen in the weeks after Hannah's death, in fact, two 302 00:18:41,135 --> 00:18:45,294 Speaker 3: days after her funeral, was that the police gave a 303 00:18:45,334 --> 00:18:49,655 Speaker 3: briefing to a coroner about where their investigation was going, 304 00:18:50,294 --> 00:18:54,014 Speaker 3: and that they questioned the veracity and motive of statements 305 00:18:54,054 --> 00:18:56,774 Speaker 3: that Hannah had made prior to her death, where she 306 00:18:56,854 --> 00:18:59,535 Speaker 3: had claimed she was a victim of domestic and family violence. 307 00:19:00,175 --> 00:19:02,575 Speaker 3: That has been interpreted by people we've spoken to as 308 00:19:02,574 --> 00:19:08,534 Speaker 3: a victim blaming type response to effectively turn the spotlight 309 00:19:08,655 --> 00:19:12,335 Speaker 3: on someone who had been murdered and question whether their 310 00:19:12,375 --> 00:19:15,014 Speaker 3: claims of being a victim of domestic and family violence 311 00:19:15,054 --> 00:19:20,055 Speaker 3: were true. I think is quite concerning, and it raises 312 00:19:20,494 --> 00:19:24,615 Speaker 3: more questions about that investigation and what happened subsequently. 313 00:19:25,415 --> 00:19:27,294 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, what does it say about these 314 00:19:27,334 --> 00:19:30,215 Speaker 1: systems and institutions that we're told are there to keep 315 00:19:30,254 --> 00:19:32,655 Speaker 1: us safe. We're told these are the steps you're supposed 316 00:19:32,655 --> 00:19:34,854 Speaker 1: to take. What does it say about them to the 317 00:19:34,895 --> 00:19:38,895 Speaker 1: broader community when that is how it's handled posthumously. 318 00:19:39,334 --> 00:19:42,254 Speaker 3: Yeah. I have had this conversation with police officers in 319 00:19:42,294 --> 00:19:46,695 Speaker 3: the past in interviews where there had been a reluctance 320 00:19:46,814 --> 00:19:50,254 Speaker 3: to kind of acknowledge that there were problematic police responses. 321 00:19:50,294 --> 00:19:52,734 Speaker 3: I think largely because police were worried that that might 322 00:19:52,814 --> 00:19:56,014 Speaker 3: discourage people to come forward. In Queensland, we've had an 323 00:19:56,215 --> 00:19:59,494 Speaker 3: inquiry into police responses to domestic and family violence and 324 00:19:59,574 --> 00:20:03,455 Speaker 3: heard a number of different allegations of misogynistic and sexist 325 00:20:03,774 --> 00:20:07,774 Speaker 3: behavior within the Queensland Police, including responses to DFF. I 326 00:20:07,774 --> 00:20:11,534 Speaker 3: think we're beyond this point of saying, well, we shouldn't 327 00:20:11,574 --> 00:20:14,294 Speaker 3: talk about this because maybe someone might be reluctant to 328 00:20:14,294 --> 00:20:16,455 Speaker 3: come forward. What we know is that when a woman 329 00:20:16,534 --> 00:20:19,895 Speaker 3: does come forward, there is on some level a lottery 330 00:20:20,254 --> 00:20:22,694 Speaker 3: in terms of which police officers she might talk to 331 00:20:22,814 --> 00:20:25,734 Speaker 3: or which station she might go to. And I think 332 00:20:26,014 --> 00:20:28,294 Speaker 3: on some level it's something that people need to go 333 00:20:28,334 --> 00:20:29,574 Speaker 3: into with their eyes open. 334 00:20:30,014 --> 00:20:33,375 Speaker 1: What happens now then, Ben, because you've done all this reporting, 335 00:20:33,455 --> 00:20:36,054 Speaker 1: it's the last two years of your life you've dedicated 336 00:20:36,094 --> 00:20:39,414 Speaker 1: to this with the team, it's hopefully to start a 337 00:20:39,455 --> 00:20:43,455 Speaker 1: conversation within those organizations. What sort of the next step 338 00:20:43,455 --> 00:20:45,774 Speaker 1: do you think, Because let's be real, like DV in 339 00:20:45,895 --> 00:20:48,414 Speaker 1: general is not a bygone thing. It's never going to 340 00:20:48,415 --> 00:20:50,175 Speaker 1: be a completely stammed out thing like a lot of 341 00:20:50,254 --> 00:20:53,334 Speaker 1: terrible stuff in this world. So what's the ideal of. 342 00:20:53,254 --> 00:20:55,814 Speaker 3: Course, Well, I mean what we need I think within 343 00:20:55,895 --> 00:20:58,574 Speaker 3: some of the systems that respond to DV is genuine 344 00:20:58,574 --> 00:21:02,254 Speaker 3: cultural change and not just attempt at system change. And 345 00:21:02,294 --> 00:21:05,014 Speaker 3: what I mean by that is that another training course 346 00:21:05,014 --> 00:21:07,494 Speaker 3: for police offices is not going to stop some of 347 00:21:07,534 --> 00:21:09,894 Speaker 3: the underlying attitudes that we know are held by some 348 00:21:10,094 --> 00:21:14,335 Speaker 3: police officers in relation to responses to domestic and family violence. 349 00:21:14,814 --> 00:21:17,814 Speaker 3: There is broader cultural change and that does take time. 350 00:21:17,854 --> 00:21:20,455 Speaker 3: There's certainly no suggestion that that's something that we can 351 00:21:20,494 --> 00:21:23,014 Speaker 3: waive a wand at and deal with overnight. There's a 352 00:21:23,094 --> 00:21:26,254 Speaker 3: statistic that sticks with me. It came from a Death 353 00:21:26,294 --> 00:21:29,254 Speaker 3: Review Board report in Queensland a couple of years ago 354 00:21:29,334 --> 00:21:33,294 Speaker 3: where they assessed all of the domestic and family violence 355 00:21:33,334 --> 00:21:36,094 Speaker 3: homicides on the books at that point and they looked 356 00:21:36,135 --> 00:21:39,935 Speaker 3: at what risk factors were present in those cases, there 357 00:21:39,935 --> 00:21:41,814 Speaker 3: are the ones that you would expect to be there, 358 00:21:41,854 --> 00:21:45,695 Speaker 3: things like strangulation, stalking, sexual violence. In roughly a quarter 359 00:21:45,895 --> 00:21:48,895 Speaker 3: of cases that led to homicide, there was one risk 360 00:21:48,935 --> 00:21:52,535 Speaker 3: factor that was present in the majority of cases, more 361 00:21:52,534 --> 00:21:55,054 Speaker 3: than half of the homicides that had occurred in Queensland, 362 00:21:55,135 --> 00:21:59,494 Speaker 3: and that was a victim's own intuitive sense of fear 363 00:21:59,935 --> 00:22:03,294 Speaker 3: that they would be killed. What that tells me is 364 00:22:03,334 --> 00:22:09,294 Speaker 3: that believing women is fundamentally the first and most important 365 00:22:09,334 --> 00:22:12,854 Speaker 3: thing that we can do to start to address some 366 00:22:12,895 --> 00:22:16,254 Speaker 3: of the problematic responses that people find and then starting 367 00:22:16,254 --> 00:22:19,175 Speaker 3: to address the domestic and family violence homicide crisis. If 368 00:22:19,175 --> 00:22:22,655 Speaker 3: we believe women in the first instance, then it will 369 00:22:22,655 --> 00:22:26,014 Speaker 3: go some way to improving those responses. 370 00:22:28,014 --> 00:22:30,054 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with 371 00:22:30,135 --> 00:22:33,414 Speaker 1: us today. If this conversation has raised any concerns for you, 372 00:22:33,655 --> 00:22:37,655 Speaker 1: help is always available. You can contact the National Domestic, 373 00:22:37,734 --> 00:22:41,294 Speaker 1: Family and Sexual Violence Counseling Service at one eight hundred 374 00:22:41,415 --> 00:22:45,095 Speaker 1: respect that's one eight hundred seven three seven seven three 375 00:22:45,135 --> 00:22:48,695 Speaker 1: to two. The Quiki is produced by me Taylor Strano, 376 00:22:48,774 --> 00:22:57,414 Speaker 1: Ilaria Brophy and Talie Blackman, with audio production by Lou Hill. 377 00:22:57,574 --> 00:23:00,655 Speaker 1: Momma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 378 00:23:00,695 --> 00:23:02,415 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on.