WEBVTT - Mamamia Out Loud: The Lindsay Clancy Conversation 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:10.953 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:14.314 --> 0:00:16.794 Hi there, it's Grace here, and you might be wondering 0:00:16.834 --> 0:00:19.793 why there's an extra episode in your feed. There's a 0:00:19.794 --> 0:00:21.874 story that seems to be everywhere right now that has 0:00:21.914 --> 0:00:25.514 broken hearts globally, and that is the trial of Lindsey Clancy, 0:00:25.954 --> 0:00:28.874 which is taking place right now in the US. Because 0:00:28.874 --> 0:00:31.274 of the magnitude of this story and the way it's 0:00:31.314 --> 0:00:34.513 reaching so many people and parents, Mamma and Me Are 0:00:34.554 --> 0:00:36.954 Out Loud decided to do a special episode to talk 0:00:36.994 --> 0:00:41.513 about this incredibly distressing case. But please take care when listening. 0:00:50.674 --> 0:00:54.314 Out loud as Welcome to a special episode of Mamma 0:00:54.314 --> 0:00:56.273 and Me Are Out Loud. And it's one that we 0:00:56.314 --> 0:00:58.353 really wish that we didn't have to make because it 0:00:58.434 --> 0:01:00.874 is about a murder trial that's currently happening in the 0:01:00.994 --> 0:01:04.673 US where a woman called Lindsay Clancy has admitted to 0:01:04.794 --> 0:01:09.154 killing her three young children in twenty twenty three before 0:01:09.194 --> 0:01:11.994 trying to take her own life. You may know a 0:01:11.994 --> 0:01:14.274 lot about this story, you may know a little bit 0:01:14.314 --> 0:01:17.874 about this story, or you may know nothing about this story. 0:01:17.994 --> 0:01:21.114 It is incredibly distressing and that's why we wanted to 0:01:21.154 --> 0:01:23.954 separate it from your regular episode of out Loud to 0:01:23.954 --> 0:01:25.954 give you the choice about whether to listen to us 0:01:25.994 --> 0:01:28.994 talk about it without having to miss out on your 0:01:28.994 --> 0:01:33.394 regular Wednesday episode that dropped yesterday as usual, so you 0:01:33.394 --> 0:01:36.354 can just scroll back in your feed and listen to that. 0:01:37.154 --> 0:01:39.474 But we wanted to give this story some room to 0:01:39.514 --> 0:01:42.714 breathe because out Loud is a daily show that covers 0:01:42.794 --> 0:01:46.114 what women are talking about, and this case has captured 0:01:46.114 --> 0:01:51.674 women's attention in the most extraordinary way, and we want 0:01:51.714 --> 0:01:54.794 to try and understand why. My name is Mia Friedman. 0:01:54.914 --> 0:01:56.834 I'm one of the hosts of Muma me Are out Loud, 0:01:56.874 --> 0:02:01.394 and I'm joined today by two members of our QUICKI team. 0:02:01.554 --> 0:02:05.874 The QUICKI is Muma MEA's daily news podcast twice daily 0:02:05.954 --> 0:02:09.393 in fact, and with me at the Muma Mea out 0:02:09.434 --> 0:02:11.874 Loud table today is tams and Rose, who is an 0:02:11.874 --> 0:02:15.354 accomplished journalist and one of the two new hosts of 0:02:15.514 --> 0:02:18.554 the Quickie, and also Georgie Page, who is a group 0:02:18.594 --> 0:02:21.674 executive producer at Muma Mea and is working across the 0:02:21.754 --> 0:02:25.354 Quickie as well. Welcome to both of you. I really 0:02:25.354 --> 0:02:27.674 wish that we weren't here, and the reason that I 0:02:27.714 --> 0:02:31.314 wanted you both to be sitting at the table. I 0:02:31.354 --> 0:02:33.354 am one of those people who doesn't know much about 0:02:33.354 --> 0:02:37.314 this case at all. I've deliberately tried not to focus 0:02:37.314 --> 0:02:40.913 on it, but I couldn't help but be made aware 0:02:40.914 --> 0:02:44.674 of it when just this week, interestingly, about three or 0:02:44.714 --> 0:02:48.594 four of my group chats with very different people all 0:02:48.634 --> 0:02:52.554 started popping off and talking about it. And then when 0:02:52.634 --> 0:02:56.074 someone mentioned it in the office, ten people jumped up 0:02:56.114 --> 0:02:58.874 and started talking about it as well, women of all 0:02:58.874 --> 0:03:01.554 different generations, and tams And you were saying to me 0:03:01.594 --> 0:03:03.514 earlier before we came into the studio that there are 0:03:03.554 --> 0:03:07.754 like two different conversations going. One is about the actual 0:03:07.954 --> 0:03:10.194 story of what's happening in the trial at the moment, 0:03:10.194 --> 0:03:12.274 which is being televised in the US. It's been going 0:03:12.314 --> 0:03:15.354 for about three weeks. And the other, Georgie, which you 0:03:15.394 --> 0:03:19.194 know a lot about, is the parallel story that's happening 0:03:19.234 --> 0:03:22.073 on the internet, which is about this case, but it's 0:03:22.114 --> 0:03:25.714 going in a very very different direction. So, Tamsen, let's 0:03:25.714 --> 0:03:27.794 start at the beginning. Who is Lindsay Clancy. 0:03:28.274 --> 0:03:30.554 So Lindsay Clancy is a thirty six year old woman 0:03:30.634 --> 0:03:33.794 who lives in Massachusetts in the States. She was married 0:03:33.794 --> 0:03:36.634 to her husband Patrick, and they had three kids. They 0:03:36.674 --> 0:03:38.394 had a five year old, a three year old, and 0:03:38.434 --> 0:03:40.794 an eight month old, and she was working as a 0:03:40.874 --> 0:03:44.834 labor and delivery nurse up until this killing occurred. 0:03:45.194 --> 0:03:48.954 So my understanding is that this crime happened in twenty 0:03:49.114 --> 0:03:54.714 twenty three, after she I believe, strangled the children, she 0:03:54.914 --> 0:03:57.234 tried to take her own life. Is that correct? 0:03:57.554 --> 0:03:59.754 Yeah, So that's what's going through court at the moment. 0:03:59.794 --> 0:04:01.754 The reason that we're hearing about this so much now 0:04:01.874 --> 0:04:05.194 is because it's come to trial. So she's been charged 0:04:05.274 --> 0:04:07.794 with the murder of her three children after they were 0:04:07.794 --> 0:04:10.274 found dead in her home, and that was after she 0:04:10.394 --> 0:04:13.874 was also found with very significant injuries. And so the 0:04:13.914 --> 0:04:18.114 allegation is that she killed her three children, she murdered them, 0:04:18.433 --> 0:04:20.393 and then she tried to take her own life. 0:04:20.433 --> 0:04:21.193 Is she denying that. 0:04:21.474 --> 0:04:24.594 No, so she's not denying that she killed the children. 0:04:24.993 --> 0:04:27.354 What this case hinges on is whether she can be 0:04:28.113 --> 0:04:31.834 held legally responsible for that killing given the mental state 0:04:31.914 --> 0:04:33.513 she was in. And that's really the crux of the 0:04:33.553 --> 0:04:34.433 case in court. 0:04:34.193 --> 0:04:34.713 At the moment. 0:04:35.674 --> 0:04:37.713 Some of the footage of the trial that I've seen, 0:04:37.953 --> 0:04:41.594 I mean, it's obviously incredibly distressing to watch even apart 0:04:41.633 --> 0:04:45.074 from the horrific nature of the crime. From what I understand, 0:04:45.553 --> 0:04:49.794 she took some pills, self harmed and then threw herself 0:04:49.834 --> 0:04:53.474 out of the window of their house. She's paralyzed and 0:04:53.914 --> 0:04:59.274 is in a wheelchair in court sobbing hysterically. What's the 0:04:59.313 --> 0:05:00.313 court case about? 0:05:00.393 --> 0:05:00.593 Then? 0:05:00.753 --> 0:05:05.113 If she said I pled guilty, is she saying by 0:05:05.313 --> 0:05:06.474 reasons of insanity? 0:05:07.154 --> 0:05:11.834 So she has pled not guilty. And the thing here 0:05:11.914 --> 0:05:13.753 is so she's not denying that she killed them, that 0:05:13.794 --> 0:05:16.834 she's denying that she murdered them. So it's the intent here, 0:05:16.873 --> 0:05:19.314 and it's whether she can be held accountable for her 0:05:19.354 --> 0:05:22.354 actions given her mental state at the time. So the 0:05:22.393 --> 0:05:26.153 prosecution is arguing that it was premeditated. She had decided 0:05:26.154 --> 0:05:28.713 she would kill her children, She sent her husband Patrick 0:05:28.753 --> 0:05:31.553 to the shops to pick up food and prescriptions, and 0:05:31.594 --> 0:05:34.113 then in that time gave herself enough time to kill 0:05:34.113 --> 0:05:36.874 her children and then attempt to kill herself. What this 0:05:37.034 --> 0:05:39.753 case really hinges on is whether she can prove and 0:05:39.794 --> 0:05:42.313 whether her lawyers can prove that she was in such 0:05:42.354 --> 0:05:43.633 a severe state of. 0:05:43.794 --> 0:05:45.553 Due to postpartum depression. 0:05:45.313 --> 0:05:48.234 Postpridum psychosis is what they're actually saying in this and 0:05:48.274 --> 0:05:51.874 so that's different. It's more rare than postpartum depression. It's 0:05:51.873 --> 0:05:53.194 a very specific condition. 0:05:53.393 --> 0:05:56.354 I interviewed a woman once, an Australian woman who had 0:05:56.393 --> 0:06:00.794 postpartum psychosis, and she described it as she was pushing 0:06:00.794 --> 0:06:03.633 her baby down in a pram down the street and 0:06:03.674 --> 0:06:05.633 she looked at him and he looked like a dragon, 0:06:06.553 --> 0:06:09.873 and she couldn't believe that other people couldn't see that 0:06:09.953 --> 0:06:10.833 he was a dragon. 0:06:11.034 --> 0:06:11.913 So it's scary. 0:06:12.193 --> 0:06:15.993 Yeah, it's not just postpartum depression can be incredibly debilitating 0:06:16.513 --> 0:06:19.633 for women, but this is a different thing, psychosis. Yeah. 0:06:20.034 --> 0:06:23.113 So did her husband or anyone around her see any 0:06:23.154 --> 0:06:25.953 evidence of this postpartum psychosis? Did she see a doctor 0:06:26.113 --> 0:06:27.193 or did she tell anyone? 0:06:27.433 --> 0:06:30.993 Yes, So, she was talking a lot to her husband, 0:06:31.193 --> 0:06:35.194 to her mother, to her friends, and to doctors about 0:06:35.274 --> 0:06:37.313 how she was feeling. She had expressed to them that 0:06:37.354 --> 0:06:40.274 she was feeling suicidal, that she was seeing things, that 0:06:40.313 --> 0:06:43.073 she was unwell, she was begging for help. She had 0:06:43.113 --> 0:06:47.753 seen psychologists, psychiatrists. She was on a cocktail of drugs 0:06:47.794 --> 0:06:51.393 at the time of this. And Patrick, her husband, has 0:06:51.433 --> 0:06:55.313 given evidence that he feels like she was misdiagnosed and 0:06:55.354 --> 0:06:58.313 that she was getting the incorrect treatment. That's playing a 0:06:58.313 --> 0:07:02.113 critical role in this How a woman who was begging 0:07:02.154 --> 0:07:06.274 for help alongside looking after three children. She was saying, 0:07:06.393 --> 0:07:09.393 I desperately need help, I'm not well. How does she 0:07:09.433 --> 0:07:12.194 still end up in the position where her three children 0:07:12.234 --> 0:07:14.194 are dead and she's on trial for their murder. 0:07:14.914 --> 0:07:18.393 So this sounds like just a completely tragic case. But 0:07:18.634 --> 0:07:24.034 why has this story started popping up in everybody's group chats? Georgie? 0:07:24.074 --> 0:07:26.634 This is why I wanted to ask you, because by 0:07:26.674 --> 0:07:30.194 all accounts, it's a tragedy. It's a trial that's ongoing, 0:07:30.274 --> 0:07:33.354 it's been televised, so I understand that that's captured the imagination. 0:07:34.274 --> 0:07:37.793 But horrific crimes like this happen all the time. Children 0:07:37.994 --> 0:07:41.874 are murdered tragically by their parents every day around the world. 0:07:42.754 --> 0:07:44.794 Why has this captured everyone's attention? 0:07:45.674 --> 0:07:48.194 It's really interesting because I am following this case in 0:07:48.234 --> 0:07:50.794 two ways. I'm following the news reports, which are telling 0:07:50.794 --> 0:07:53.393 me what's happening in the court case, But I'm also 0:07:53.514 --> 0:07:56.074 really interested in true crime, and I follow a lot 0:07:56.074 --> 0:08:01.314 of the cases. The internet discourse is about Patrick and Lindsay. 0:08:01.874 --> 0:08:04.554 There's not as much discussion about the kids and that's 0:08:04.554 --> 0:08:06.514 almost sort of taken out of it because it is 0:08:06.554 --> 0:08:11.034 such a trat and it is more like two things. 0:08:12.154 --> 0:08:15.834 Did Patrick do it or did Patrick not do enough? 0:08:16.154 --> 0:08:16.953 So it happened. 0:08:17.194 --> 0:08:19.194 So wait a second, I'm going to stop you right there. 0:08:19.234 --> 0:08:20.274 Did Patrick do it? 0:08:20.874 --> 0:08:21.074 Well? 0:08:21.114 --> 0:08:24.033 She said that she did it and he was at 0:08:24.074 --> 0:08:28.594 the shops. My understanding is that hasn't come up in court. 0:08:28.794 --> 0:08:31.354 The idea of him doing it has it. 0:08:31.434 --> 0:08:33.034 No, So that hasn't come up in court at all. 0:08:33.074 --> 0:08:34.674 And I think this is where it's really important to 0:08:34.714 --> 0:08:37.314 make the two distinctions. There are two cases running. One 0:08:37.354 --> 0:08:39.994 is the court of public opinion that's playing out all 0:08:39.994 --> 0:08:42.674 over social media, that's exactly what George's talking about. And 0:08:42.674 --> 0:08:44.514 then we have the case that's being run in court, 0:08:44.554 --> 0:08:46.674 and that is purely about her role. 0:08:46.554 --> 0:08:47.354 In these killings. 0:08:47.394 --> 0:08:50.874 So he's there in court, he's giving evidence, but none 0:08:50.914 --> 0:08:53.594 of it is questioning whether he had an involvement in 0:08:53.634 --> 0:08:54.194 the killings. 0:08:54.274 --> 0:08:58.714 Okay, so is he sort of supportive of her in court? 0:08:58.714 --> 0:08:59.754 Are they still married? 0:09:00.354 --> 0:09:03.234 They are not still married. He has remarried, or so 0:09:03.274 --> 0:09:06.154 he has married a woman that looks very like Lindsey, 0:09:06.554 --> 0:09:09.994 which is a online commentators on TikTok and Reddit and 0:09:10.034 --> 0:09:12.594 things to really go to town on what they think 0:09:12.954 --> 0:09:17.034 of him. He is absolutely the bad guy online. There 0:09:17.034 --> 0:09:19.114 are a lot of people on social media who are 0:09:19.154 --> 0:09:22.594 presenting themselves as true crime experts and presenting these as facts. 0:09:22.634 --> 0:09:26.714 So can you just take us through broadly the conspiracy 0:09:26.794 --> 0:09:31.194 theory that is captured attention? What do people say they 0:09:31.234 --> 0:09:31.914 think happened? 0:09:32.594 --> 0:09:34.554 I would actually say conspiracy theories. 0:09:35.274 --> 0:09:37.594 Let's just say though, that none of these are including 0:09:37.634 --> 0:09:40.874 the fact that we now know that she suffered from psychosis. 0:09:41.194 --> 0:09:44.794 So these are very often generated by Internet sleuths who 0:09:44.834 --> 0:09:46.194 may not have factored that in. 0:09:46.554 --> 0:09:50.314 So what is the internet's justification for the fact that 0:09:50.354 --> 0:09:53.394 she has given evidence, actual evidence to say I did 0:09:53.394 --> 0:09:56.834 it and is distraught about the fact that she did it? 0:09:57.194 --> 0:09:59.514 And you know what, that's such an interesting point because 0:09:59.794 --> 0:10:02.274 we really have to be crystal clear yet again here 0:10:02.514 --> 0:10:04.954 Patrick Clancy is not on trial. 0:10:05.354 --> 0:10:06.674 He is not accused of anything. 0:10:07.114 --> 0:10:10.354 The theories that we're referring to are all purely about 0:10:10.354 --> 0:10:13.594 what's being repeated on the internet, right, and these theories 0:10:13.674 --> 0:10:17.034 we can't go into too much detail about because of legalities. 0:10:17.234 --> 0:10:21.154 So one of the internet theories is that she believes 0:10:21.234 --> 0:10:24.834 she did it because her ex husband made her believe so. 0:10:25.554 --> 0:10:27.874 And a lot of the discussion that I've read about 0:10:27.874 --> 0:10:30.474 on mainly things like Reddit like this is going deep 0:10:30.554 --> 0:10:34.394 into this is that her lawyer is using this case 0:10:34.474 --> 0:10:36.754 to prove to her that she didn't do it. 0:10:37.074 --> 0:10:39.274 But what do you mean using this court case. She's 0:10:39.314 --> 0:10:40.074 been charged. 0:10:40.434 --> 0:10:43.634 She's been charged, but some of the crazy conspiracies on 0:10:43.634 --> 0:10:47.074 the internet believe that he is trying to show inconsistencies 0:10:47.114 --> 0:10:51.674 in the case that will make her say, maybe I 0:10:51.714 --> 0:10:54.394 didn't do it. But she fully believes that she did it, 0:10:54.434 --> 0:10:57.154 and everyone knows that. But there is so much sympathy 0:10:57.154 --> 0:10:59.194 for this woman in a way that you do not 0:10:59.274 --> 0:11:01.434 often see for women who allege. 0:11:01.034 --> 0:11:02.034 That they killed their children. 0:11:02.354 --> 0:11:04.514 I also think an important distinction to make. 0:11:04.834 --> 0:11:07.154 She has not said that she didn't kill them, and 0:11:07.234 --> 0:11:09.234 it's understood that she believes she killed them, but she's 0:11:09.274 --> 0:11:11.394 never given evidence in court, and we're not actually expecting 0:11:11.434 --> 0:11:14.154 her to give any evidence, as is her right as 0:11:14.354 --> 0:11:17.394 a defendant. She is sitting there, but she doesn't have 0:11:17.434 --> 0:11:20.274 to give evidence. Effectively, her legal argument is just that 0:11:20.354 --> 0:11:22.634 she was not in her right mind when this happened. 0:11:22.794 --> 0:11:25.394 But that is all being made on her behalf. 0:11:36.394 --> 0:11:40.274 So why is the Internet? And by the Internet we 0:11:40.434 --> 0:11:43.594 sort of mean reddit and TikTok and just also the 0:11:43.634 --> 0:11:45.914 general discourse. You know, when we say the Internet, we 0:11:45.994 --> 0:11:48.514 just meet people, right and in a lot of group chats, 0:11:48.514 --> 0:11:51.474 I've seen their influences and people I know personally who 0:11:51.514 --> 0:11:56.714 are making reels and tiktoks asserting very specific facts about 0:11:56.714 --> 0:12:00.314 the lawyer and the this and the hymn and the why, 0:12:00.514 --> 0:12:02.474 Like why is everyone so invested? 0:12:02.794 --> 0:12:07.554 There's something different about this case, And it's really hard 0:12:07.634 --> 0:12:11.834 to put my finger on what, because personally, I feel 0:12:12.074 --> 0:12:14.994 so much sympathy for this woman, and I watch her 0:12:15.034 --> 0:12:17.714 in court. I almost can't make it join in my 0:12:17.834 --> 0:12:20.754 mind that she's done these horrible things, even though I 0:12:20.794 --> 0:12:24.114 do believe that she has, because I feel she was 0:12:24.154 --> 0:12:28.354 so failed by the system either inconsistencies, all rumors that 0:12:28.434 --> 0:12:31.954 have now been sold as facts, and so the Internet 0:12:32.354 --> 0:12:35.714 is jumping on this. It's amazing clickbit. Obviously the Internet 0:12:35.794 --> 0:12:36.634 is jumping on this. 0:12:36.954 --> 0:12:39.634 And maybe this is why I haven't been captivated by 0:12:39.634 --> 0:12:42.394 this story so much, because I'm not someone who follows 0:12:42.434 --> 0:12:46.114 true crime, so it sounds like what's happening? Correct me 0:12:46.154 --> 0:12:50.154 if I'm wrong it's so difficult to look at this 0:12:50.234 --> 0:12:53.514 woman and think about that crime, and so confronting and 0:12:53.514 --> 0:12:56.394 distressing to think of a mother doing that to her children, 0:12:57.154 --> 0:12:59.314 and the details of that we won't go into, but 0:13:00.514 --> 0:13:04.914 my god, that we want to find ways to not 0:13:05.034 --> 0:13:09.234 blame her by either saying someone else did it or 0:13:09.274 --> 0:13:11.834 putting the blame on the system. Yeah. 0:13:12.154 --> 0:13:12.394 Yeah. 0:13:12.874 --> 0:13:15.474 I also think one of the reasons that it's captured 0:13:15.514 --> 0:13:18.434 so many people's attention, whether they are a mother or 0:13:19.114 --> 0:13:23.994 they're not yet, is so many women have experienced being 0:13:24.074 --> 0:13:26.514 shut down by the medical system in some way or another. 0:13:26.554 --> 0:13:28.474 They've gone and they've asked for help for something, They've 0:13:28.474 --> 0:13:30.434 asked protests and the doctors told them you actually you 0:13:30.474 --> 0:13:32.354 don't need it, or you know what, come back, maybe 0:13:32.354 --> 0:13:36.834 it's a period. And this is the most extreme version 0:13:36.874 --> 0:13:40.234 of that. And I think it's quite scary if you 0:13:40.674 --> 0:13:44.394 think about, if I'm continuously ignored, if people don't take 0:13:44.434 --> 0:13:46.474 me seriously, I don't get the right treatment I need 0:13:46.514 --> 0:13:49.994 when I'm doing everything that I'm supposed to do to 0:13:50.154 --> 0:13:50.754 get help. 0:13:51.474 --> 0:13:54.314 That's what happens. It feels like it could be anyone. 0:13:54.554 --> 0:13:56.874 Okay, So the health system in America, we know is 0:13:56.954 --> 0:14:01.794 a binfire. She had expressed that she was struggling, So 0:14:01.834 --> 0:14:04.634 she was in that twelvemonth mark, which is the high 0:14:04.754 --> 0:14:09.674 risk time after the birth of her third child. Because 0:14:09.674 --> 0:14:13.434 my experience of the health system, it's been a while 0:14:13.594 --> 0:14:16.794 since I had a baby, they're very attentive to you. 0:14:16.874 --> 0:14:18.474 I was talking to some of the new mothers in 0:14:18.514 --> 0:14:22.834 the office, and you have compulsory health checks at certain points, 0:14:22.914 --> 0:14:25.154 like at the six week mark and one week mark, 0:14:25.434 --> 0:14:27.914 and they ask you a lot of very specific questions. 0:14:28.554 --> 0:14:30.674 And that's the case in Australia. In the US, it's 0:14:31.234 --> 0:14:34.394 possibly not like that. But we do know that she 0:14:34.434 --> 0:14:38.434 was seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist and they've given evidence, 0:14:38.474 --> 0:14:43.034 I presume that she was diagnosed with postpartum psychosist. 0:14:42.474 --> 0:14:45.314 So she hadn't been diagnosed, and that's part of the 0:14:45.394 --> 0:14:47.514 crux of this is that she was asking for help. 0:14:47.594 --> 0:14:49.994 She was clearly going through something. 0:14:50.034 --> 0:14:53.274 Everything she was saying and doing was showing that, but 0:14:53.354 --> 0:14:54.954 she hadn't received that diagnosis. 0:14:55.314 --> 0:14:57.034 So that's what they're attempting to. 0:14:57.034 --> 0:15:00.434 Now prove, and really over the next two to three weeks, 0:15:00.474 --> 0:15:02.314 which is now when we're going to hear from the defense, 0:15:02.594 --> 0:15:04.594 that's when we're going to really see that come to 0:15:04.634 --> 0:15:07.874 the front, because that's going to be the key defense 0:15:08.194 --> 0:15:09.954 from her team. So we're going to be hearing from 0:15:10.034 --> 0:15:11.554 a lot of those as now. 0:15:11.834 --> 0:15:14.274 So, like you said, she is in that danger zone 0:15:14.274 --> 0:15:16.634 of one year, and I feel it's like when you 0:15:16.674 --> 0:15:19.274 first have a baby and everyone visits and everyone helps 0:15:19.314 --> 0:15:21.994 at the start, and you get asked those questions that 0:15:22.034 --> 0:15:23.914 you mentioned over and over. 0:15:23.794 --> 0:15:24.834 Again every few weeks. 0:15:24.954 --> 0:15:27.034 Also very much with your first baby. I think by 0:15:27.074 --> 0:15:30.194 the time we have your third. And this is what's interesting, 0:15:30.474 --> 0:15:34.074 I haven't had postpartum depression, but I assumed that it 0:15:34.114 --> 0:15:37.434 was something that happened the first time, or it didn't happen. 0:15:37.634 --> 0:15:39.634 But it's different with every child, right. 0:15:39.554 --> 0:15:42.594 It's different, absolutely, And so her youngest was at the 0:15:42.674 --> 0:15:46.354 eight month mark, and that's the time when people have 0:15:46.394 --> 0:15:48.474 sort of floated away, but you may not be getting 0:15:48.514 --> 0:15:51.514 all the support. So maybe she wasn't being asked those 0:15:51.594 --> 0:15:53.794 questions until she sought out help. 0:15:54.154 --> 0:15:55.314 Anyway, I know that. 0:15:55.354 --> 0:15:57.554 I probably wasn't asked as many questions when I had 0:15:57.594 --> 0:15:58.794 my kids around that time. 0:15:59.154 --> 0:16:00.114 But was I sleeping? 0:16:00.274 --> 0:16:00.314 No? 0:16:00.714 --> 0:16:02.074 Was I really struggling? 0:16:02.154 --> 0:16:04.114 Yes? Has her mother given evidence? 0:16:04.474 --> 0:16:07.114 Her mother's given evidence this week and ordered her mother. 0:16:07.834 --> 0:16:11.114 She gave evidence effectively saying that her daughter was asking 0:16:11.154 --> 0:16:13.674 for help. She showed text messages where her daughter told 0:16:13.674 --> 0:16:16.314 her that she was feeling suicidal. She was asking if 0:16:16.314 --> 0:16:18.234 her mum could come and sleep in her bed. She 0:16:18.354 --> 0:16:20.714 was clearly not in a good way, and her mother's 0:16:20.714 --> 0:16:21.434 given that evidence. 0:16:21.474 --> 0:16:24.194 Really, and there's no one, including her mother, her friends, 0:16:24.594 --> 0:16:29.754 who's actually made any accusations about the husband. It's literally 0:16:29.794 --> 0:16:30.794 just online speculation. 0:16:30.874 --> 0:16:32.034 There's been nothing in court. 0:16:32.194 --> 0:16:34.154 There's been nothing. But at the same time, there's a 0:16:34.154 --> 0:16:37.754 lot of people shouting from the rooftop saying, if your 0:16:37.754 --> 0:16:41.274 wife tells you that she is struggling, do not go 0:16:41.394 --> 0:16:44.434 out to the chemist and get take away by yourself. 0:16:44.674 --> 0:16:47.914 Take at least one child, or take all the children. 0:16:49.034 --> 0:16:51.314 Was he being negligent by leaving a woman who was 0:16:51.354 --> 0:16:53.314 struggling and has spoken about. 0:16:53.114 --> 0:16:56.314 That at length at home with three children. That's a question. 0:16:56.434 --> 0:16:59.794 When I interviewed that woman, she said she would try 0:16:59.794 --> 0:17:03.674 to hide it because she said she was scared that 0:17:03.754 --> 0:17:07.554 someone would take her baby away from her, not saying 0:17:07.594 --> 0:17:09.714 that that's what happened with Lindsay, but but I thought 0:17:09.714 --> 0:17:13.114 that was interesting, Like it's not always visible from the outside. 0:17:13.274 --> 0:17:25.914 That's what she That's what she said. You know you 0:17:25.954 --> 0:17:29.674 were talking to me Georgie about women with T shirts 0:17:29.714 --> 0:17:31.594 saying Lindsay's army. 0:17:32.234 --> 0:17:33.033 What's that about. 0:17:33.154 --> 0:17:37.074 So there is merch available unofficial obviously from this trial. 0:17:37.514 --> 0:17:40.394 You can get team Lindsay T shirts. You can get 0:17:40.434 --> 0:17:43.994 T shirts saying I'm the thirteenth Dura in the Lindsay 0:17:44.034 --> 0:17:48.714 Clancy case. People are making reels saying taking three weeks 0:17:48.754 --> 0:17:51.034 off work because I'm studying the Lindsay Clancy case. 0:17:51.554 --> 0:17:56.114 So it's turned it's been turned into a contented. 0:17:54.794 --> 0:17:58.474 Into an absolute circus. So I feel with cases like this, 0:17:58.554 --> 0:18:00.474 we need a baddie, and no one wants the baddie 0:18:00.554 --> 0:18:00.994 to be her. 0:18:01.394 --> 0:18:06.754 I also think it's often easier to be angry than gutted. Yeah, 0:18:06.834 --> 0:18:09.434 you know, I see that time and time again. When 0:18:09.474 --> 0:18:14.074 something devastating happens, it's easier to be angry. And it's 0:18:14.114 --> 0:18:16.474 too confronting for us to think of a mother killing 0:18:16.474 --> 0:18:19.874 her own children, so someone else must be responsible. So 0:18:19.954 --> 0:18:23.434 her ex husband actually appeared on the stands on day five. 0:18:24.394 --> 0:18:25.234 What did he say? 0:18:25.994 --> 0:18:30.514 He testified to the general state of well being of 0:18:30.554 --> 0:18:33.594 his wife at the time. He said on the day 0:18:33.634 --> 0:18:36.314 of the killing, she seemed well, That was his quote, 0:18:36.594 --> 0:18:39.234 but he also said it had been an incredibly turbulent 0:18:39.274 --> 0:18:42.154 period of time and that she had been struggling, that 0:18:42.194 --> 0:18:45.674 she had been expressing those struggles to him. He had 0:18:45.714 --> 0:18:49.234 also taken her to hospital a few days prior because 0:18:49.314 --> 0:18:52.714 of her insomnia and her anxiety, So she was clearly 0:18:52.914 --> 0:18:56.074 expressing enough to him that meant that he was doing 0:18:56.154 --> 0:18:59.554 things like taking her to hospital. He also said, which 0:18:59.594 --> 0:19:02.154 is to what Georgie said before he got on the stand, 0:19:02.194 --> 0:19:05.234 and said he's forgiven his ex wife for the deaths 0:19:05.274 --> 0:19:06.034 of their children. 0:19:06.874 --> 0:19:08.874 It makes me think I've been watching some of those 0:19:09.274 --> 0:19:11.034 having said I don't like true crime. I've been watching 0:19:11.034 --> 0:19:15.954 a few true crime documentaries on Netflix, etc. And it's 0:19:16.074 --> 0:19:18.874 always that thing of it's not what it looks like yep. 0:19:19.074 --> 0:19:22.634 And so it's almost like the plot's not good enough 0:19:22.754 --> 0:19:25.674 of this story. There needs what's the twist, And the 0:19:25.714 --> 0:19:28.033 twist is because it's never who you think it is, 0:19:28.514 --> 0:19:31.634 and it's always someone very close to the crime. So 0:19:31.714 --> 0:19:34.313 everyone is just treating this like a cross between the 0:19:34.354 --> 0:19:37.394 super Bowl and a true crime story. 0:19:37.474 --> 0:19:42.154 Right, there's absolutely a need to glorify and add a 0:19:42.474 --> 0:19:45.313 layer of excitement on the internet, which isn't there in 0:19:45.354 --> 0:19:45.914 the courtroom. 0:19:46.034 --> 0:19:48.313 It's funny you say the word excitement, because that's the 0:19:48.354 --> 0:19:51.394 impression that I've got, which has been so surprising. Given 0:19:51.434 --> 0:19:54.794 what a tragic story this is. People are excited about it. 0:19:54.834 --> 0:19:58.954 And the last time I remember this kind of vibe 0:19:58.994 --> 0:20:02.874 was around maybe Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni or the 0:20:02.994 --> 0:20:06.914 Amber heard Johnny Depp trial, But no one died in 0:20:06.954 --> 0:20:08.073 the those stories. 0:20:08.594 --> 0:20:09.914 You know, they're not children. 0:20:10.714 --> 0:20:14.234 I am finding it's quite uncomfortable at times engaging with 0:20:14.274 --> 0:20:18.874 this discourse where what we're discussing what was done, was. 0:20:19.314 --> 0:20:21.154 Brutally killing three children. 0:20:21.594 --> 0:20:25.114 It's so horrific the details of this case, and as 0:20:25.154 --> 0:20:28.554 we're going on this back and forth all the theories, 0:20:29.114 --> 0:20:31.394 obviously everyone wants to get to the heart of it, 0:20:31.474 --> 0:20:34.554 but some of the tone has been hard to engage with. 0:20:34.954 --> 0:20:37.474